Posts Tagged ‘good breeders’

Cynthia Ross FTW!


I just decided this needed its own post. I don’t want a single person to miss this.

A member of the oft-maligned AH board contacted the previous owners of the dumped Arabian mares. One of Red Sonia’s owners, Cynthia Ross, stepped up immediately to take her back. Here’s “Lucy” in better days:

You can read Cyn’s posts on the AH board here.

“It makes me so sad that she has had to go through this, Lucy is kind of a nervous lady in new situations….and this had to be pretty scary for her. She’s a special little mare and I am thrilled to have her back again…just wish they would have contacted me prior to sending her to the auction. She was pretty calm when I got there, came on up when I called her, ate some carrots and got some love.”

How many times do I have to say the same damn things on this blog? CALL THE FORMER OWNERS. That’s why you have papers. That’s one big reason horses NEED papers, for those of you who argue endlessly that papers are meaningless. The former owners are your #1 source of a new potential home when you are in deep, dire straits and cannot keep a horse. Not that this was the case here, but you know what I mean. A former owner knows the horse, knows the horse’s personality, and even if they cannot take back the horse, may know someone the horse would be perfect for. And they are already emotionally connected to the horse!

I also want to note that Cynthia is taking back this horse despite the fact that she no longer owns a farm and, like me, has to pay board on every horse. Good for her. I started reading her old message board posts on ABN…she posted four years ago that she had just sold this mare and really missed her. Do you realize how close this one came? Not that she would have gone to kill, AH has been getting 100% of them bailed out, but she could have gone to anyone…she could have wound up in someone’s barbed wire shithole behind their trailer in Eatonville. It happens all the time.

The mare got lucky, and so did Cynthia, and it’s good for all of us to see and be reminded that, for every crappy horse owner, there are far more good ones. Networking is EVERYTHING…network, network, network and make sure your horses have their papers up to date and the history that may save their lives one day!

P.S. The bay mare is supposed to be bailed this morning. Also going to an Arabian person, this one in Oregon.


Looking for a supersized rescue of your very own, and don’t want any health problems or surprises? This is Fallon, a stout, tall and good looking young bay Quarter type gelding at Shiloh Horse Rescue, just outside of Las Vegas, Nevada. Fallon was born at the feedlot and has been raised at the rescue so they have every bit of his history. He is five years old and a whopping 16.3 hands! He’s ready for a new home with someone who can advance his training. 100% sound and just needs more training to become a very useful and valuable horse!

Best of FHOTD: Ten Questions


It’s that time of the year again…breeding season! So it’s probably a good time for a re-post of this blog entry about some things you might want to think about before breeding your mare(s).
I was just having this discussion with someone this weekend and I’m going to share it here.

It is the unusual horseperson who never considers breeding a horse of their own. Most of us, at some point, will own a mare that we think is just awesome, one that we would like to make more of. Or we will fall in love with a particular stallion and want a foal by him – but nothing that we see for sale out of his offspring fits the bill.

I’m never going to turn into a 100% anti-breeding radical. Someone does have to breed so that we continue to have and enjoy horses, and it helps nothing if all the responsible, knowledgeable people stop breeding and the bottom feeders with barbed wire paddocks behind their trailers keep popping out a dozen fugly grade foals a year. I’ve heard so much crap in the small animal world about how, if you breed, you’re taking a home away from a shelter pet. In most cases, nonsense. The person who is dead set on having a high quality Viszla, for example, is not going to truck down to the shelter and adopt a Chow-Shar Pei-Lab-Pit mix instead. The truth is, there’s always a market for a high quality, well bred, well conformed animal of any breed. The market that’s dead is the market for the Chow-Shar Pei-Lab-Pit puppies and the fugly ewe-necked, calf kneed, long backed Quarter Horses (even if they are gold! Really!) and the black kittens your barn cat had. There are almost no homes for these animals. Your chances of winning the lottery might be better.

So the first question: Is what you are planning to produce selling? REALLY? Are you SURE you have not seen it at your local auction? You can’t take your Uncle George’s word on this. You have to conduct your own serious market research, based upon the show records and pedigrees involved. Even if resale is not your goal, remember that life is unpredictable and it doesn’t make sense to bring a horse into the world that no one else will want. If I meet one more person who thinks a foal is marketable because it goes back to Man O’War, my head will explode. Plenty of descendants of Man O’War, Seattle Slew, Leo, Poco Bueno, Doc Bar, King, *Bask, Morafic, etc. go to kill every year. If you don’t have big name breeding close up, it’s pretty much irrelevant.

Second question: Are foals from the stallion you are considering currently winning in some kind of competitive discipline? I don’t care what it is – dressage, barrel racing, endurance, park horse, whatever – but are they? If you are considering a young, unproven stallion, is he currently winning in some kind of competitive discipline? There are plenty of opportunities to get the breeding you want at a reasonable price – check out stallion service auctions, for example.

Third question: Have you met the stallion in person? Does he look like his pics? Lots of people retouch! Does he have a nice disposition? “Because he’s a stallion,” is never an excuse for a snarly, nippy attitude. If you are in a high performance discipline like racing and are willing to put up with that attitude to get the performance (cough cough Storm Cat cough cough), well okay, but I’d still prefer that nasty mind didn’t breed on because it sabotages their chances of a good home and a second career after the track if they can’t run. Is there another stallion who is equally talented with a better mind that you can choose? And is the stallion sound? If not, why? Unsound after winning $600K on the track or an eventing career – well, fair enough. Unsound because he’s 1300 lbs. on size 00 feet? That should give you pause. Of course, totally sound after winning $600K on the track would be my first choice, but I don’t always hold these things against the horse because it has so much to do with management, how good the trainer and his staff were about care, etc. Bad management can F up the legs of the best conformed horse on earth.

Fourth question: What about your mare? If you are making the decision to breed because she is the most awesome show/barrel/endurance horse you’ve ever had and she wins everything, kudos! That is the kind of mare we want to make more of. If your decision is being motivated by any of the following, don’t do it:

1. Mare is lame and I don’t want her just sitting around (Particularly if mare is lame from something related to conformation like navicular – I have no issue with a mildly injured show mare being bred when she needs time off anyway. That makes sense.)

2. Mare is too crazy to ride. (Please hit yourself in the head for me if you want to breed her to settle her down or because you can’t do anything else with her because she is a wack job. REGUMATE!)

3. I want a BABY, they’re so KYOOT! (Please go to your local auction and take one off the killers’ hands for $25. Assuming you realize they’re not a stuffed animal and know that weanlings typically do naughty things 8.426 times per hour on average, including striking at you, kicking you, nipping you, etc. If you cannot discipline because it’s KYOOT, you will wind up like the people on It’s Me Or The Dog, except that what is running you over will be 1,000 lbs.)

4. I want my kid to have a horse she can grow up with! (I’d love to say I don’t still hear this incredibly moronic comment, but I still do. If you think this makes sense, I hope you know your way to the Emergency Room, because your kid is about to become a Frequent Flyer! Young horses and young kids are a terrible combination. You’re going to wind up with a hurt kid and a spoiled horse that you will then run to the auction because you don’t know how to fix it.)

Fifth question: What are your mare’s conformational flaws? Are you selecting a stallion who is strong in those areas? Is your mare free of serious conformational defects that interfere with soundness and use? A long back can easily be shortened by the right stallion. Pigeon toes or an upright shoulder, not so much. And the long-backed mare is not so bad if your goal is to produce a pleasure horse in any of the stock breed associations – but she shouldn’t be considered if your goal is dressage. If you can’t look critically at your mare because you love her too much, take her to a show (or a few shows) for halter class and ask the judge for their comments.

Sixth question: Genetic defects. Know which ones your mare may carry and do the appropriate testing if it’s not already done. Make sure you breed to a tested stallion. It is never okay to roll the dice and possibly produce a HYPP positive foal, a HERDA foal, a lethal white or anything else that can be tested for and prevented. Not to mention that you do not want your first breeding experience to result in a foal that dies within days!

Seventh question: What do you really want? Do you want a foal out of your fantastic performance mare, and not care what sex or color you get? Awesome, because you can only predict so much. Sure, you can breed to a cremello (if you can find one that doesn’t suck, good luck on that – I can maybe think of three decent ones off hand) and get a certain color but that’s about it for predictability. If it’s important to you to have a buckskin filly…buy one.

Eighth question: Can you afford all the associated vet work? Ultrasounds are a must – you have to know if your mare is carrying twins or some other problem exists. Can you deal with it (emotionally AND financially) if the result of all of this is a dead or permanently damaged mare and/or a dead foal and/or a foal that is never going to be rideable? All of these things can and do happen. It is heartbreaking to see someone lose a mare they loved just because they were trying to reproduce her. If she is super, super special to you, you might want to consider doing an embryo transfer to take the risk of foaling out of the equation. Let some older broodmare who has had several successful, complication-free deliveries do the “work.” And consider all the possibilities and have a plan in mind if things go bad – what will you do with a foal that is born with a disability or is injured before he reaches riding age?

Ninth question: If the object is resale and the baby does not sell as a baby, are you prepared for that? (a) Do you have safe and separate facilities for a weanling? Hot tape won’t hold a weanling who is screaming for mom, and you all know what I think of barbed wire. (b) Do you have the knowledge to train appropriately during all stages of life, or the financial resources to pay for training? (c) What about feeding and nutrition? What do you know about how to feed a foal? It’s not like feeding an adult horse. You can trash their legs permanently if you don’t know what you’re doing. (d) Can you afford another horse if he never sells?

Final question: Are foals like the one you contemplate consistently selling for at least $2000 – $2500 as weanlings? If you can find one out there for $500…don’t do it. Please, don’t do it. We have so many of those. We cannot find homes for them. They are $500. Then they are $300. Then they are at the auction. Everybody who goes to the auction is so damn tired of seeing your weanlings, yearlings, two year olds and unbroke adults selling for $175 to the kill buyer. And I know nobody planned for that outcome but it happens left and right. You are not immune from life’s bad luck. You could lose your job. You could get divorced. You could get cancer. You could get hit by a drunk driver and never be able to work again. Bottom line, it is flat out irresponsible to produce foals that are not reasonably high in value. The only real protection a horse has in this world is a high value. Please, please, please don’t create foals that don’t even have that much of a safety net in life.



For those of you who think you are going to make money breeding horses!

Truer words have never been spoken than this hilarious but ACCURATE article on the Chronicle of the Horse site:

How To Sell A Horse

Read it and get a good laugh – and then I want to ask a serious question:

Who here has actually made money on the sale of a horse they bred, after HONESTLY subtracting the care of the mare throughout the pregnancy, vet and farrier for mare and foal, and then all of the expenses you put into the foal from birth through the day someone actually put a check in your hand for it?  This includes feed, deworming, vet, farrier, training, showing, etc.  Usually people say “well, I enjoyed doing those things/was going to pay for them anyway, so it’s ok.”  I know, but if you were really looking at breeding as a business with a goal of actually turning a profit – who here has done it?

We all know that nobody makes money breeding foals that sell for $1000, $1500 or less.  But how many even make money on the ones that sell for good money?

I think most horse businesses survive thanks to offering training and associated services – not breeding.  What do you think? Here’s a good opportunity to send a wake up call to the young and enthusiastic about the myth of “making money breeding horses” — share your stories!


On a SUPER happy note, we finally (competely) identified Hercules! Here is his USEF listing:Horse Name: GET SHORTY (4082241)Breed: THOROUGHBRED
Sire Name: SLEW THE BRIDE
Dam Name: FLOATING ALONG

WENDY JONES
WA
Owner Point States:
State Start Date End Date
WA 08/09/06 11/30/06

Date Range: 12/1/2005 – 11/30/2010
NO RESULTS FOR THIS HORSE

There isn’t any “Get Shorty” with JC so I wonder if he has a different name?  Anybody got time to do some research about Floating Along’s foals today?   I believe he is a 1991.



Thank you for having standards!

A reader sent me this, from Kimalot Quarter Horses’ web site, and she’s right, I DO like it.

Mare Owner Information

Your mare needs to have the following, prior to breeding consideration.  This is a consideration not a guarantee that I will breed the mare.

1.  A thirty ’30′ day clean uterine culture no exceptions as this is possibly the cheapest and most overlooked item in a mares breeding/reproductive history.  Many times a mare will not settle due to a low grade infection.  A culture is not the same thing as a palpation.

2.  No rear shoes and must be currently trimmed with no ragged edges.

3.  Current Coggins less than 6 months old (considerations are made to brood mares with current nursing foal at side) with yearly Coggins paperwork.

4.  Up To Date (UTD) on shots and worming.

5.  Must be halter broke (no exceptions) and be catchable.

6.  Out of State mares must have 30 day health certificate.

7.  Copy of mare’s papers; if grade provide show history and/or conformation photos.

8.  Mare must be well fleshed, healthy looking and vigorous.  

** NOTE** If your mare is unthrifty, dull or wormy looking, has curled, ragged or long toes due to lack of farrier work or thrush (hoof disease), can see her ribs (unless due to nursing foal), poor weight, pot belly (unless due to age and breedings-aged broodmares) or otherwise looks like a back yard horse that has not been taken proper care of, please do not even bother contacting me.  If you cannot take care of her in an unbred status you have no business raising a foal.

9.  Should meet current conformation requirements. No club foots, parrot mouthed or carriers of HERDA or HYPP.

10.  Mare care is currently $6 per day dry and $8 wet.

11.  Nothing under 4 years of age, I do not breed babies.


What a great list! As a stallion owner, I’ve already put some thought into what my own rules are going to be. Basically, I’m thinking that I need to see side and front pictures of the mare standing on asphalt so that I can see her feet and a video clip showing her being ridden or led at a trot to approve her for breeding. Lame mares need a vet report explaining the reason – I would breed someone’s show horse that pulled a suspensory, for example, but not a navicular mare. I would not breed a mare who was more than mildly lame for obvious reasons. I like the “condition” rules outlined above very much. It is highly unlikely I would breed a grade mare or a mare whose registration would not result in a foal that was registerable with a major registry (i.e. Arabs and Thoroughbreds would be fine, not TWH’s).  I’m always baffled when a discount is offered for grade mares.  It makes sense to me to offer a discount for mares who have earned at least a ROM or the equivalent in their breed.  Why not offer a financial incentive for people to bring you good performance mares and therefore increase the odds that your stallion’s foals will be (a) show quality and (b) belong to people who will actually show?  (I have seen some stallion owners do this – but not that many)
 
If you’re currently standing a stallion, do you have rules for what mares you will accept? What are they?
 
And if you have rules about condition, conformation or quality, how do you deal with the whole shipped semen issue? After all, someone can send you a picture of the mare looking awesome, and in reality have a house of horrors at home.
 
How do you, as a stallion owner, hold up your end of the responsible breeding obligation?
BTW, I will update the previous information thread and keep it active…lots of people still making requests there!  :)


I am going to have a couple days next week where I won’t have time to write, so I’m going to do something I haven’t done in a while – invite you to send in your guest blogging submissions.  Please do not insert pictures in the document – attach them separately and tell me where you want them placed if that’s not obvious.  A text file is the best.  MS Word puts in a zillion characters I have to strip out.  I can’t promise I’ll use all of them but if you are DYING to get something off your chest about the horse world and I haven’t covered it, here’s your chance!  You can be credited or you can be anonymous, your choice.  I would particularly be interested in insider reports from training barns if you’ve worked for somebody awful and we do not need to name the trainer, either – I like to cover those topics just so that owners KNOW what sometimes happens and WHY they need to be involved, check on their horses, and check out the trainer before sending the horse.  Oh, and I’d love to do one on drugging – again, if you’ve been at a barn that whipped out syringes 24/7 (or you’re there now!) just write it up and I’ll keep it anonymous at your request.   Send your guest blog to cathy@horsereunions.com. 



 

 

 

 

 

 

Rescuers v. Breeders: No one wins!

I want to talk about this today, because I’ve noticed there are two types of rescuers:  those who want to work with breeders to keep the animal in question safe (or who may even be breeders themselves and feel a responsibility for protecting their type of animal), and those who set them up in an adversarial position to breeders, taking a firm no-breeding stance and believing that breeding is the cause of the problems they are faced with solving.  I want to discuss this because I do see both sides and no one can say I’m clueless about their feelings or the challenges they face.
 
Rescuers see an endless, flowing river of animals, accompanied by an endless, flowing river of humans who failed them with mostly poor excuses for having done so.  For every person who got lung cancer and lost their job, there are 100 who spent their paychecks on drugs instead of hay, lost interest in the horse and stopped taking care of it, got scared of the horse and refused to fork over the cash for training, had an oops pregnancy and now can’t afford the horse or got a new boyfriend and forgot to feed the horse.  I hear about dozens of horses in desperate need every single day, and 99% of the time,  I can’t do a thing to help them.  It is frustrating but the problem is the individuals with the lame excuses, and to a lesser extent forces beyond our control which have screwed up the lives of ordinarily responsible people – the poor economy, natural disasters, poor health, etc.  To a certain degree, it is like that country song where the guy is bitching about his life to his buddy in the bar and his buddy points out that, well, everybody’s life is like that.  Shit happens, and it happens to a lot of good horses despite anyone’s best efforts.  
 
I’d hazard a guess everybody reading here cares about the cause of the horse problem in this country, even if we don’t agree on the cause.  We all know there are too many horses, particularly poor quality horses, and they can’t find homes. No one likes that they go to kill, not even those of you who believe we should re-open the American slaughterhouses.  I’m not even sure all the kill buyers like it.  They see it as a necessary evil that they might as well make a buck off of.  I’ve even heard Ron Mariotti rage against irresponsible breeding and ownership, so there you go. 
 
It is a simplistic answer to look at the breeders as the reason we have too many horses. After all, they make them, right?  True but it’s more complex than that, and I’d argue that adopting an anti-breeder mentality is one of the worst possible things rescuers can do.  I’ve seen rescuers get so extremist that they think NO one should be breeding ANY horses.  I find that view completely ludicrous, unrealistic, and counterproductive.  First of all, most rescuers got into it because first they were riders. If you ride, guess what, you have a hand in creating the need for horses that breeders fill.  The only people who can truly be anti-breeding and be logical about it are the extremists who believe horses should not be confined, owned or ridden, because they are the only people who wouldn’t care if there were no more horses.  The rest of us want horses to continue to perpetuate, so that our kids and grandkids and everyone in the future can enjoy the same wonderful relationships with them that we do. 
 
(Sometimes I feel the need to note that rescue is a choice.  If you’re getting so darn angry about it, maybe you ought to back off for a while and get involved in some things that make you a happier person.)
 
Now let’s look at the flip side. Some of you breeders are so anti-rescue that it’s ridiculous.  You arrogantly state that none of YOUR horses will EVER wind up in rescue, so it doesn’t affect you. (Sure hope you’ll be writing a four-figure check when one of us contacts you with one of YOUR horses that we just pulled out of a kill pen. It will happen.)  You accuse rescuers of being 100% crackpot hoarders, who scam money out of good people and keep far more horses than they can afford in crappy conditions but won’t adopt them out because no one is good enough.  In your minds, all rescuers are Dean Solomon – wackjobs who looove horses but don’t really know a thing about caring for them or heaven forbid training them or showing them.  You point to the ABR board and go “See?  See?  Look at them. They’re talking to Barbaro’s spirit!  And sending thousands to people like that Mustang Hearts nut-puppy!” 
 

 

JUST KNOCK IT OFF!

 

Most breeders are not the ones being featured on this blog. A great many breeders are genuinely committed to producing top quality horses that will, for the most part, live comfortable lives and receive decent-to-excellent care.  They will take back what they produced if it is in need.  Every day, there are breeders that take in horses from folks in trouble without announcing it on a web site or asking for donations. They clean up messes because it is their horse that they bred and their responsibility or just because it is the right thing to do.  You rescuers have no idea how many horses you will never meet because a breeder already took on the rehab and care of it personally, on their own dime, and didn’t post about it on 65 message boards. 

Most rescuers are not Dean or Debbie.  There are numerous quality rescues, both private and non-profit, where horses receive decent-to-excellent care.  Every day, there are rescuers who do their chores and maintain their properties and sit down and file for grants and organize effective fundraisers like dinner auctions and horse shows.  If they’re really on the ball, they are actively involved in education to help reduce the need for horse rescue – they work with school groups, they do clinics for 4-H…maybe they even write books. 

Remember, what gets you in the news/publicized is often bad behavior. The good people don’t get half the press/recognition/buzz online that the bad ones do.  Doesn’t mean they are not out there.  Sure, we all hear about the breeders having the “I don’t have hay” dispersal sale.  And we all hear about the rescues having the “I don’t have hay” fundraising beg-a-thon.  Think that through, would you?   That’s news.  Suzy Doing A Great Job and Paying Her Bills over there is not news!  I try to put in the good stories here from time to time, but BOY do I get a lot more traffic when I feature the train wrecks.  Public broadcasting struggles along while the guy who produces the Real Housewives of Atlanta lives in a mansion. It’s just the way it goes!

Rescuers, here’s a hint:  When you are nice to breeders, they give you money.  When you accept that most of them do not want horses to end up in bad places, just like you do, and you decide to work with them and not against them, you will often find that they are very willing partners.  Now, if you abuse that and take their money and don’t care for the horses properly, thanks a bunch – you just perpetuated that bad image of rescuers.  Although, breeders and others, be careful about who you give money to, and this won’t happen.  You all need to stop throwing money at people whose facilities you have not even inspected.  Get in the car and go for a drive.  I have very little sympathy for people who throw money at strangers and then find out they’ve been scammed.  Well, duh.  Yeah, I’ve done it too, I sent CBER money.  DUMB. 

Now I want to address the no-breeding clause that is a part of some, but not all, rescues’ contracts.  My personal belief is that the most responsible choice is based upon the unique animal in question.  We have all seen some extremely high quality animals end up in rescue, often due to personal tragedies in human lives.  It happens.  I do not believe that a Superior Western Pleasure mare becomes a piece of shit the second she walks into a kill pen.  Do you?   That makes no sense.  So if some rescuer with a good eye pulls her, or a multiple graded stakes winner, or an A circuit jumper out of a kill pen somewhere, and the mare can be returned to good health and is breeding sound and has her papers, I have no problem with that mare being bred – using the same rules I would always apply to breeding:  quality stallion with a show or other significant competition record, good conformation/disposition, compatible pedigree and free of genetic defects – breeder takes proper care of mares including regular hoof care, vet care appropriate to pregnancy including ultrasounding to ensure no twins, proper facilities for foals and mares, foal is registerable in a real registry (aka NOT the Blue Eyed Horse Association) and will be handled and trained appropriately to its age until sold.  Particularly if a quality mare has already suffered some injury that makes her unrideable, her highest and best use, and the one that is most likely to keep her in a home with good care, may very well be as a broodmare, and I do not see any sense in forbidding that use.

Conversely, if the rescued mare is not breeding quality or not breeding condition, it is completely sensible for a rescue to forbid breeding and I encourage that.  I just adopted out a 24 year old – she went with a no-breeding clause that is explicit enough to state that she may not be pastured with an unaltered colt of any age.  I haven’t yet personally had a rescue mare that I think is breeding quality, but I have seen them at other rescues.   Nor have I personally had a rescue stallion or seen anyone local have one that did not need (and get!) gelding ASAP, but I’ve seen them elsewhere. Clever Allemont comes to mind, not that he’s probably fertile anymore, but he’s an example of a quality stallion pulled out of a kill pen.  It is far more rare to rescue quality horses, and part of that reason is what I stated above – often some breeder has already cleaned up the mess before the horse winds up at the auction or with a rescue.   However, rare and impossible are two different things. 

Everybody who loves horses wants to help horses.  It is time for rescuers and breeders to dump the adversarial attitude and discuss how both sides can work together to encourage responsible breeding, responsible ownership, and keep the horses we love out of neglectful situations and the kill pen.  I sure as hell don’t want everybody to stop breeding. I want to have something to ride in 20 years and I don’t want it to be the kind of crap that will remain if all the good people get driven out of breeding and nothing is reproducing except Billy Joe Bob’s grade fugly herd in rural Appalachia where they don’t have the Internet!  I’ll tell you what, I think the more people that straddle the fence and both breed/seriously compete and rescue, the better.  That model has worked in small animal rescue for many years and it can work in horses, too.  Let’s work on changing rescuers v. breeders into people who love horses v. people who do bad things to horses – like it should be.


     

 

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