Questionable Equipment
Feb 24 2012
While Mugwump was still the writer for this blog, she published a few polarizing posts. The one people seemed to feel the strongest about was the “Noseband” post. We’ve had multiple people comment that they stopped reading after that one.
When I, Snarkly, first saw that post I was so excited! Over-use of equipment in general is one of my big pet peeves and cranking mouths shut for no reason other than it being the current trend is an excellent (horrible?) example of that. Of course, when I read the post itself, I was pretty disappointed. I’ve been riding in dressage barns a lot lately and it seems no horse is ridden in anything other than a crank, simply because that’s the style. I’ve seen many people fussing and struggling to get it closed that one extra hole, often at the direction of their coach and been left shaking my head. On the other hand, I’ve ridden OTTBs that would grab the bit in their teeth and bolt at the jumps when you tried to work them over fences and found that a properly adjusted flash or grackle made a world of difference for our safety. I had hoped it would be about misuse of equipment, not a blanket condemnation.
It did, however, make me rethink a few things. I had been riding a WB mare for someone else in my barn. The bridle I had been told to ride her in was fitted with a crank noseband with a flash attachment. I didn’t think it was even remotely necessary, so I was dealing with it by leaving it as loose as I could. But even on the last hole, that stupid crank was tighter than I was comfortable with. It wasn’t until I read that post that it occured to me that I could just take the damn thing off. So I did. And the mare didn’t go significantly differently, she was just slightly more relaxed through her poll and jaw.
Which brings us to this post!
Nosebands are not inherently evil. They, like just about every other piece of equipment out there, can be both useful or damaging. It simply depends on how they’re used. And how damaging they can be is starting to come under more scrutiny.
Most of us are aware that an improperly adjusted noseband can impair a horse’s breathing. Horses breathe solely through their nostrils, so keeping their mouths shut is not the issue. However a noseband that is adjusted too low, especially if it is also fitted tightly, will restrict how much the nasal passages can expand and therefore the volume of air the horse is able to breathe in.
If this noseband was fitted higher, with the chinstrap looser, it would a.) look a lot neater and b.) not be nearly as restrictive of the horse’s breathing, while still serving its purpose.
See the difference in space between the nostrils and the noseband? That’s the area that should be able to expand to allow the horse to take a greater volume of air with each breath.
Most modern nosebands, even the figure-8s and the flashes, are adjusted to take this into consideration. However, new reasearch is being done into the problems excessive tightening itself can cause. This article from the Journal of Veterinary Behaviour summarizes a study that examined horses wearing double bridles with and without nosebands, and with nosebands tightened to varying degrees. They found evidence of an elevated stress response in all the animals with nosebands and an increasing amount of impairment of vascular perfusion (translation: restricted blood flow) with increased tension in the noseband. That research and others like it actually led to the International Society for Equine Science to publish a statement recommending standardized testing of noseband tension at dressage shows.
From their release:
“The International Society for Equitation Science (ISES) states that the practice of over tightening nosebands to avoid penalties in competition is covering up poor training at the expense of horse welfare. Recent research suggests that horses wearing tight nosebands undergo a physiological stress response, are sensitized to bit pressure and may have reduced blood flow with potential to cause injuries and tissue damage including nasal bone deformities, even when padding accompanies the noseband such as in the case of so-called crank nosebands.”
You can read their full statement on their website.
To us it seems to be a matter of common sense. If the goal is to have a relaxed horse, why choose to add unnecessary tension?
83 comments to “Questionable Equipment”
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The headstall on the brown horse looks like it is too big. Perhaps if the bridle was the right size for the horse, they would have had a better chance at making it fit right.
There seems to be some confusion about exactly what the parts of a full bridle are supposed to do and what they are called. In English style bridles, the bit or bits are attached to a simple leather strap in a u-shape that passes through a loop on the head band that holds everything together. The cavesson goes around the horse’s nose and should be adjusted to allow the insertion of 2 fingers between the leather and the lower jaw. It and the throat-latch help stabilze the bridle and make it harder for the horse to get rid of it. The throat latch should be loose enough to allow an upright fist be inserted between it and the horses jowls. That’s what my first coach taught me.
Then we get into modifications, mosly designed to improve control of the horse. The grey is wearing a flash attachment to keep his mouth shut so he can’t get his tongue over the bit. The seal brown and the other grey are wearing drop nose bands, the simplest of which is a regular cavesson lengthened so it can be fitted around the mouth instead of the nose. Both are properly fitted, but the brown horse has a much smaller mouth and the effect is to crowd the nostril a bit. Then there is a figure-8 noseband, also known as a grackle or mexican noseband. It works essentially the same as a flash noseband.
The primary purpose of the drop or flash nose band is to stabilize the bit in the horse’s mouth. Some horses find it helpful.
My first encounter with noseband abuse happened when I was grooming for an advanced rider. I put everything on the horse as I had been trained but could not tighten the nose band to the hole the rider normally used. I was shocked when she told me she actually used a girth tightener to fasten it! This could not possibly serve any useful purpose, but that was how she had been taught — in Germany.
Finding the right bit and bridle combo for any particular horse seems to be becoming a lost art. Horses with a small mouth or low pallette may find a thick snaffle too much to handle, even painful. So he tries to evade the pain, only to have someone crank the noseband too tight. Going to a thinner bit that is more comfortable would be an improvement.
I agree with the principle: less is more, but you do need to stay within the regulation tack for your discipline. And it can be done without hurting your horse. In Canada, a dressage steward can disqualify any rider if she/he finds the bridle, bit, or noseband is hurting the horse.
Here is what I think. When you first get a horse, even when you know a lot about it, err on the side of a bit more control. The horse is in a new situation and takes a while to settle in, even the quiet ones. I like to start out with a pelham and just use the snaffle (in a controlled environment of course) and keep the curb on a need to use basis. From there it is a good start to figure out what you will need. This came in real handy on my current horse, he had never been ridden in a snaffle, only neck reined in a curb and I was able to figure this out right away. Then it is best to go to the least amount of control and add stuff as you need. A pet peeve of mine is throatlatches on dressage bridles. You need a throatlatch for some things, but not in a dressage ring. Look at the Spanish Riding School bridles they use for their performances.
I never noticed before that the Spanish Riding School doesn’t use throat latches, learn something new every day.
Nose bands like any tack can be abused, used improperly, with the wrong intentions.
Than again I don’t know much about that stuff my mares go in a a hunter bridle, Dee ring snaffle with most buckles pretty loose never had a problem.
I was at camp a few years ago and the horse I was riding the bridle didn’t have a nose band or throat latch. Which was fine. The horse was happy and healthy and had had adequate training so that she didn’t need it, no horse really needs them. But she was a sneaky girl, one day during our lesson she put her head down to make it look like she was scratching her leg and woops off slipped the bridle. She didn’t take off or anything it was just funny.
Spanish Riding School is performance riding, much like the Royal Lippizanners that tour the world. Its a semblance of dressage, but not really well done or even technically correct dressage. They do use throatlatches too, though, for lunge exercises and in-hand work.
I think a throatlatch and noseband are part of the english tack tradition. Much like saddle strings and shanked bits are part of the western tack tradition. They aren’t necessarily needed, but they are part of the uniform.
Yes it is probably a good idea during training to use a throatlatch, I was referring to the actual performance when I would assume the rider wants the horse to concentrate to the fullest. I just dislike all the extra “stuff” I see on the horse when they are in the ring.
Properly fitted and appropriately used they won’t interfere in the least. That’s the crossroad. I ride a draft mare that has a crank with a french link dee ring. The crank is snug and doesn’t interfere in any way with her breathing, but if she wanted to she could snap that leather crank and take me for a ride.
Then why use the flipping thing? It is putting pressure where pressure was never intended to go, and, at best, is irritating the horse, at worse is causing untold damage to the jaw and teeth. If you need to keep her mouth closed use a correctly adjusted drop or cross over noseband, not a weapon of mass destruction!
Uhm, I think the Spanish Riding School performs at a little higher lever than the Royal Lippizanners. Some people would even say that they define technically correct dressage.
Make that “higher level”. Why can’t blogger come up with and edit function?
THANK YOU, Painted Pony!
The SRS epitomizes correctly done dressage. The horses of the SRS put upper level modern dressage *TO SHAME*. Those horses are quiet, forward, balanced, graceful, and supple – and so are their riders. SRS riders don’t even touch reins until their seats are well-developed… and each young SRS rider gets a young horse, and they learn together up through the entire training program.
The Royal Lippizans… not even close to the expertise and tactful riding you see with the SRS!
And no great globs of foam. Have you noticed ?
AND the riders of the Spanish Riding School aren’t slump-shouldered, heels-up, and nagging constantly with their legs. Their aids are so subtle as to be practically invisible. (And again NO GREAT GOBS OF SALIVA!)
Ah, yes. Once again Snugly & Snarkly, we agree… (try not to pass out from shock
)
Anyway, I have no problem with a loose-fitted nose band that helps make the turnout look more “professional”. I do, however, have a problem with people cranking those down and calling it good. I also have an issue with idiots riding with running martingales on shank-style bits, flank straps that are so loose that you could fit a fridge in there, tie-downs that seem to serve no other purpose other than to cover for shitty training, crops being used as punishment instead of as an extra reminder of an aid, big ass spurs on idiots that can’t ride without jabbing their horses in the gut CONSTANTLY…
Oh my. I could go on and on. But I will spare you all. And I’m sure most of you will agree with me anyway…
Life’s A Beach
http://www.36andsingle.blogspot.com/
Personally I think it’s best to use as little as possible when you handle a horse for the first time. That way you can really gauge what the horse is all about. I find statements like closing a horse’s mouth to control them rather short sighted. Especially with OTTBs where the track trainers have essentially ruined their minds & mouths. I start and finish horses without bits and find it is easier then one would think – it actually simplifies things for the horse. They no longer have to deal with pain in their mouths and can focus on things that are actually more important for example where I would like their shoulders,nose, or butt to go.
Agree 100%. Start off with as little as possible and see how the horse goes. You can move up from there. I’ve also gone the other way (started with a bit and moved down to something less severe). It is hard to move to something with less control. It seems you have to invest a lot more time in training the horse to respect the rider after the bit is removed. It can be done though, even with the “wild” ones.
So true. It’s like negotiating a salary: you can negotiate down, but not up. Start with a mild bit and move up from there.
On the throat latch, if fitted correctly, it barely touches the horse. A FULL four fingers between the throat latch and the horse, erring loose if unsure. I agree that in most circumstances it would be safe to ride without one, but having seen ponies snatch their heads down and tug their bridle off on their front legs, I feel just a bit safer with one. That said, I’ve ridden without one in an arena.
Cavessons should be NO MORE than two fingers below the cheek bone and always fitted to have at least two fingers between the noseband and the horse. They’re expected for showing, but I personally feel that if you can’t take it off and see no change in how your horse is going at all, you gotta have it too tight.
I do see a use for drop nosebands of all kinds. A flash is much more effective on a puller than a harsher bit. If you are struggling to fasten any noseband, though, you have it too tight.
Over ninety percent of horses should go happily without a noseband, but I don’t feel a correctly fitted cavesson or a crank that is not actually cranked (if you can’t find a good dressage bridle without one…sigh) cause problems.
Jennifer R, what I mean about the throatlatch is that during a dressage competion (or exhibition) the horse is in a ring or something, is supposedly well trained, and in no danger of losing the bridle. When horse is asked to round up and collect a loose throatlatch bumping on the neck there can only be a distraction. And I see pictures of tight ones, that’s even worse! I trail ride on a loose rein and my throatlatch is not tight, but not a bit loose either because I need it. Australian riders attach the bridle to a collar on the horse’s neck because they need it riding hard through brush.
If it’s bumping on the neck, it is too loose. If it is interfering with the horse it is too tight. I’ll have to look at horses in collection and see if that’s actually happening or if it’s a symptom of rollkeur/overbending.
I’ve never seen of or heard of the extra neck strap thing on a bridle, but I’ve seen it done with halters when Houdinis have to be tied up for extended periods of time.
I have a gelding that gets extraordinarily itchy when there is a hint of sweat anywhere on his body. I don’t allow him to scratch at will but when he earns it, he dramatically rubs a front leg and will tear a bridle off if the throatlatch isn’t snug enough. It would take him less than 2 seconds to rip off his bridle without it. He will not be shown in a 1-ear headstall regardless of what’s fashionable!
My gelding is the same way. As “cute” as the one or double ear headstalls are, I’ll never use one. One shake of his head and he’d have it off in 2 seconds. Once he learned it could be done he’d get it off in 1 second. Throat latch all the way for him!
I have often seen riders at low-level jumper shows go flying over the horse’s head and end up sitting on the ground with the entire bridle in their hands (and the horse far away), even with a throat latch… I completely see the sence in it!!
Been there, done that, while working in a level field near my house, concentrating on my 20m dressage circle to the right at canter, two kids popping up from a big rabbit brush bush scared the horse who zigged left while I continued to go right, I flipped over his shoulder, landed flat on my back, with the entire bridle, all keepers in place, no straps broken, in my hand. Reins too.
He took off, I sat up and made sure nothing was broken (I had cracked two ribs, but didn’t find that out until later) and once home realized that the “trainer” who had advised me to keep the throat latch loose was NOT giving me good advice. It is one hole tighter now and while I’ve not had the opportunity to test my OWN theory on how tight the throat latch should be, the horse can go on contact and breathe, so it probably won’t be an issue.
If you go off forward at speed and pull the bridle with you, then a tighter throatlatch probably won’t help…get the angle right and the force hard enough and the entire thing will come with you no matter what. I’ve seen it happen before.
That said, a throatlatch will help in many situations.
Many event riders braid their bridles in at competitions — using some mane / forelock and braiding over the crownpiece, to try to help keep the bridle on in the event of a fall like this.
I have a lovely dressage bridle – it fits my horse, looks good, has all the features and benefits that I want, (curved cut out area behind the ears, etc.) but it did come with a crank noseband. Dispite my instructor insisting that I HAVE to have it tight, I said “no”. I keep it 2 fingers loose and no judge has ever scored me down for it. In the end, it’s us owners who have the final say in what is put on and done to our horses. Sometimes stupid things are used because of ignorance, other times is just plain cruelty.
At my school a few of the horses have crank nosebands because that’s what was available, affordable, and fit the horse. We’re always told to fit them with two fingers underneath, the same way we would fit a regular noseband. There’s not need to crank down on the poor school ponies faces and out instructors always make sure out tack is fitted properly to maintain optimum comfort for the horse.
On that note, my friend has a bridle with a crank noseband on her horse. It’s the only one she could find with a padded headpiece – anything else rubs behind his ears. The noseband matches the bridle, so it just gets done up sensibly.
My laptop just had a funny turn, so if I’ve posted this twice, I’m sorry!
I bought the Swedish snaffle dressage bridle from Dressage Extensions a few years ago. It has a padded crownpiece and a very nicely padded crank noseband that my horse does not object to. I think he likes the padding, and I always have a two-finger “allowance” (and this is two fingers VERTICAL allowance rather than two fingers side by side on his nose) so he has no trouble breathing.
I hadn’t been using a noseband but my mare would open her mouth to avoid doing whatever I asked so my trainer had me use a noseband. I put it on high enough and just tight enough to make her stop and now I rarely use it and shes fine. Used properly I believe that they are useful tools.
This is NOT the correct use of a cavesson noseband. It was never intended to hold the horses mouth closed please stop before you do untold damage and get yourself a new trainer- one that knows how to fit tack correctly!
I agree, like anything in this world, excessive use is abuse! Be smart, be resonable and be your own person. If you’re not comfortable with it don’t do it regardless if Phillip Dutton tells you to have the nose band super tight!!
I would tend to agree with people that say there is nothing wrong with a crank noseband providing you use it like any other one. I showed a pony project at third level dressage in a bridle with a crank noseband even though I often rode her without a noseband. She went the same with or without the noseband, but the noseband truly was just for decoration – the steward may have chuckled at just how loose it was. Her comment was something along the lines of “well I guess I don’t have to worry that you are cranking the noseband too tight”.
Here is a picture from that show: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.432591124405.203425.501539405&type=3#!/photo.php?fbid=95686649405&set=a.432591124405.203425.501539405&type=3&theater
I did decide it was a little too loose as I noticed it would bounce and I figured that might get annoying for the pony so here it is after I tightened it a touch (still atleast 2 fingers space)
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.432591124405.203425.501539405&type=3#!/photo.php?fbid=10150092051169406&set=a.432591124405.203425.501539405&type=3&theater
I’d love to see a requirement in dressage that the noseband must permit two fingers to be inserted between it and the horse’s jaw — with a mandatory steward check before the horse enters the ring (and stewards empowered to check at will at any time the horse is on the show grounds. That would be two *male* fingers and *three* female ones …
They would certainly be inclined to have one at the in gate of the warm up arena. It seems a lot more questionable things go on in there than in the show ring. Dressage shows, breed shows, you name it.
It’s like watching the corners in NASCAR. That’s where all the wrecks happen.
I don’t see why bits / nosebands aren’t checked at dressage and jumper competitions as standard practice. Bits are checked on every horse leaving the arena at NRHA reining events. Bits can’t be too harsh, there can be no wires or illegal curb chains. I never had a problem with this and face it, it really is a necessary evil.
At USDF sanctioned events\ they are checked. If you are using an illegal bit you are disqualified. A too tight noseband or flash will cause the horse to be tense and uncomfortable, thus affecting your scores for relaxation and submission to the aids.
The statement from the ISES actually includes the recommendation that noseband tightness be checked using a standardized measurment from a set of metal calipers – something approximating the two finger rule.
I had to recently buy a new bridle for a new horse. I found one that I liked and it came with a drop noseband. I am not a fan of those and have since taken the ‘drop’ part off. As others have said- 2 fingers under the cheekbone, 2 fingers in the noseband and this horse works fine. The horse is just as willing and works equally well with or without. We work with the noseband as it is ncessary for showing, but this in no way means their mouths should be cranked shut.
Throatlatches should not be tight either as a tight throatlatch and iron fisted grip on the reins can also impair breathing. I have gone without a few times on my pony because of a thick neck. As he worked and became fit, I could start using it again. His new bridle though, even with everything fit to him and the throatlatch is adjusted to the last (tightest) holes, which is still not exactly tight and I check it all the time, he can shake his head and out pops an ear. No need to rub on a leg or anything else, just shake his head and off it goes. Gullet strap- here we come!
I’m not a fan of the contraptions strapping horses’ mouths closed, willy-nilly. OK, maybe there are some situations where it’s a good thing; however, I think it has become a mindless fad now.
Years ago, I dutifully bought a flash noseband for my young OTTB, per my dressage instructor, and rode him in it with the cavesson done up tight for several years. Then I went to a clinic; one of the first things the clinician suggested was to remove the flash noseband AND loosen the cavesson. Huh, go figure… my boy suddenly relaxed and started flowing forward, instead of being braced. I “lost” the &*^%$ flash noseband after that & rode with the cavesson looser thereafter. Much to my boy’s relief.
It’s been frustrating for me that it’s so hard to find a black bridle that does NOT come with a cavesson without a flash!
I’ve just started to get back into dressage, after a hiatus of over 15 years during which I have been doing the “horse-whispery-thing” and competitive trail riding with my OTTB’s successor — using a snaffle with the cavesson removed. I do not want to strap my horse’s mouth closed; I figure if her mouth starts gaping open, it’s due to a problem with MY HANDS that I’d better fix! But since the dressage rules require a cavesson, I’ll use one BUT adjust it as loose as I can manage, and it will NOT have a flash.
It really gets my goat to see equipment like this in dressage. Dressage done with the horse’s mouth cranked shut is not dressage. The word means “training,” not “using equipment that forces the horse to do what I want.” Not that it’s any better when a jumper uses things like this , but at least jumpers don’t keep saying their sport is “good for the horse” and “the highest form of riding” like dressage riders do.
I find it hard to believe that so many people need to use nosebands to control their horses. (I have nothing at all against nosebands or people who use them as intended – I’m talking about the people who feel the need to crank their horse’s face shut). The place I used to ride at didn’t even OWN any headstalls with nosebands. All horses, both western and English, went without them. I never ever had a problem – and I rode a number of (English) horses of the more “problematic” sort, including really strong/hard-mouthed ones (as a result of their previous owners). If you ride with quiet hands and don’t haul on the horse’s mouth, it won’t ever learn to evade the bit. I realize that there are some horses out there that do gape or otherwise avoid the bit and can really use a noseband – but how can this be the case with ALL the horses shown by English people with their nosebands so tight they can hardly breathe?
I’m one of the ones who publicly swore off Fugly before Snug and Snark came on board. I was mightily annoyed by the noseband post, but it was the defense of backyard breeders post that put me over the edge. I actually and truly didn’t read the blog for several weeks after that, and had to do catch up when one day I snuck a peek and was delighted with the new stewards of this blog!
Anyway, my draft cross has been a nightmare to find tack that fits her (saddle too, that’s another story) because her head isn’t as long as a draft but she has a very sturdy countenance and so full size nosebands don’t fit and even oversize brow bands are too short and bring the headstall too close to her ears. Compounding the problem was that non-crank nosebands seemed to be nonexistent. When I complained about not being able to find a regular non-crank with a flash to our local saddlery the young woman at the counter went on line to their vendors and guess what? She couldn’t find one.
I finally found bridle perfection with Just Bridles, where you CAN get a non-crank. If you have a hard to fit horse you have to do measurements but it’s not hard at all AND they sell regular flash cavessons! And they’re good people!
I have enjoyed your posts so far, but I must disagree. I thought Mugly brought a new level to Fugly, and there was no need to criticize the person who chose you for the position you are now in. Bad form.
This. I think it’s pretty poor form to start bagging Mugly. It doesn’t matter that your view on the issue was different and it would be fine to post that, but commenting about how ‘disappointed’ you were is not on.
I agree with your views on nosebands, but you know what? My respect for you has just dropped.
I am ‘disappointed’ that you seem to see a need to attack the person previously running the blog. You could have just as easily revisted the noseband issue without the attack.
I agree with Ocala and Phoenix. Part of the problem with the people who were so offended by that post was their own closed mindedness and lack of reading comprehension. We often do grab the gadgets instead of ourselves, our hands, our horses.
I find that I read this blog a lot more when Mugly was here, when she wrote something it was truly thought provoking, not just snark for the sake of snark.
Once again, we’re not trying to attack Mugwump – it was a thought provoking post and we respect her as a writer and trainer. I (JG) was simply disappointed because I felt it came across as a little one-sided and didn’t go as in depth into the physical issues that an improperly fitted noseband could cause. So I thought we’d revisit the subject and address those. Sorry if that wasn’t clear!
Am I the only one who didn’t read a criticism in Snarkly’s review of Mugly’s previous post? Both are opponents of improperly used nosebands, Mugs even more so as she’s a western trainer and we western folk don’t use nosebands at all. My take on Snarkly’s comment is that she was disappointed that readers of the original post were going to leave fhotd for good because the noseband issue hit too close to home. Both ladies are on the same side of the issue so why would Snarkly be disappointed in Mugly? Snarkly went so far as to change her noseband on the mare she’s riding and found that “she was just slightly more relaxed through her poll and jaw.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think there’s a witch hunt going on in Salem again….
lol bingobango! There was no criticism intended, we’re friends with Mugly! And while we may not have agreed 100% with the direction her article took, we still applaud her for looking at what became a difficult topic.
A lot of people around here don’t seem to be happy unless their panties are in a bunch.
Regarding the original noseband post itself, no one disagreed that nosebands (like every other item we use on or around horses) can be harmful if misused. The disagreement came with the indication that all nosebands, regardless of fit or use, are bad. Like you, I also didn’t see anything in the new post today that attacked Mugly’s stance, so I’m not sure where all the dramatic “How dare youuuu” is coming from.
I agree blondemare. I saw it that way too. I had trouble swallowing all nosebands being evil and my first reading of Mugly’s original post got my hackles up, not because I use cranks, flashes, grackles, etc., but because as a dressage/ former event rider I have always used one and don’t find them to be evil. For me they simply finish the look, except on some of the event horses I have ridden. I was more comfortable putting a grackle on with a snaffle to prevent freight train moments than I would have been putting some nasty gag-elevator bit type deal on. However after re-reading Mugly’s post my horses now go happily without a noseband except when I need it for show.
I use a noseband and was not offended by Mugly’s post and am not offended by this one either. My noseband usage is not excessive nor abusive.
My dressage horse was started by a “cowgirl,” so after she rode him for a while in just a rope halter, she put him in a d-ring snaffle with a one ear/no noseband western bridle. Fine. When I took him home, I put him in a loose-ring french mouth with a regular cavesson. For English riding, it just looks more “finished.” It was not a crank. I’ve been tempted to buy a crank simply because of the PADDING, not because I would crank it. I was always told – by H/J and reputable dressage trainers, that I should be able to slip a finger or two (depends upon the horse’s head “conformation”- e.g., he had to be a little snuggler on my old horse who’s head tapered more towards the muzzle) through the cavession and FOUR fingers on the throatlatch. The first year or more I rode him, I did not ask him to go on the bit, except in those cases were self-preservation REQUIRED it. LOL When I started asking him to take contact (yes, he has to take the contact!), I found he didn’t particularly like the loose ring. He’s a big boy with a big tongue and, like my prior rather shallow mouthed Appy/TB, he really took to my old French-mouth Baucher snaffle. By that time, I’d reached the limit of how far I wanted to go without instructor supervision, so I started lessons with my regular instructor (I stopped for a while when I retired my old horse and just trail rode for a year or two). After a while, she suggested that he should have a flash “for a while,” just to discouragethe evasions his devious Arab/Appy mind thinks up. In no case was his mouth ever “strapped shut” by the flash and he can happily munch carrots if he so desires. It’s buckled up enough that IF he tries to evade by mouth opening, he gets a little reminder that he shouldn’t, but I can easily slip a finger underneath it. From the way he’s going at present – schooling 1st and 2nd level, I think that, like I did with his predecessor, I will soon be removing the flash. Just like everyone who says “It’s the hands holding the reins, not the bit,” any piece of equipment, like a cavesson/flash/crank can be abused or used properly. That post condemnity ALL noseband was just way off base.
Would a horse and rider be disqualified from a dressage test if the horse didn’t have a noseband?
Y’all have me a little worried at this point. My trail horse just left to go live with a dressage trainer and learn to be a dressage horse. I’m sure he’ll be well cared for, but it just seems so much simpler and more “relaxing” to hit the trail instead of learn ot be special in an arena. I spent a long time finding him the perfect place, so I’m fairly certain he’ll be fine.
Short answer, yes. Dressage is about submission and acception of the aids. Be it a double bridle at Prix St George or spurs at 3rd level. Just because you have the spurs or curb doesn’t mean you have to use them, it just means your horse accepts them. Or trusts you not to abuse them……
It would be interesting to allow any legal bit /bridle combination in freestyle dressage events. So if you had a super soft, responsive horse you could enter the class with a noseband-free eggbutt snaffle. Or better yet, a bitless bridle.
Stacey Westfall competes her reiners bridleless and earns high scores for the level of difficulty. That is one thing I liked about reining events. The lighter the cues, the higher the scores. There is no rule that states “horse must be ridden in a shanked bit with a minimum 7″ cheek” or “rider must use minimum 1/2″ length rowel spurs”. If you go in with a single leather rein around your horse’s neck and hit all your marks, you’ll beat the heavy-bitted horses hands downs.
Watch this and have a dish of humble pie….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YCgsZmjsww
Correction: you *can* start using a double bridle at Third Level, but you don’t have to. In fact, in “national” (non-FEI) dressage competition, you can ride in a dressage- legal snaffle all the way up to Grand Prix! (There are some exceptions, so read the USEF rules to be sure.) This is a relatively recent change and most people still use a double at Third and above, but not all. One of my very favorite 3rd/4th level horses, Kennebec Ladyhawke, does most shows in a snaffle. She’s a tiny little Morgan and she beats the big WBs doing it.
Also — “dummy” spurs are allowed, which is to say spurs with no piece sticking off the part that goes around the rider’s ankle.
HOwever, spurs and the double are “refining aids” for higher level dressage.
When I learned to ride (English, hunt seat) back in the dark ages, cavessons came with the bridle as part of the look, for the most part. They were useful if you needed a standing martingale, but were never considered essential pieces of tack for control purposes by themselves. A few horses used drop nosebands, but those were considered problematical in showing, because if you needed a drop, you obviously had issues with your hands or with training.
I transitioned to dressage thirty years ago, and again, at the time, a regular cavesson was sufficient, although people were starting the fashion with using flash cavessons. By the time the crank noseband came around as standard equipment, I was out of dressage and showing entirely. My personal feeling is cranks became an adjunct when the percentage of upper level riders finally included enough of those who could RIDE (or afford to BUY) an upper level horse but could not TRAIN one, and needed the leverage the crank provided in a way that was legal to show. Otherwise, why does upper level dressage not simply allow drop or flash nosebands? I was always told one NEVER used a noseband that prevented a horse from opening its mouth when using a curb bridle, because it was too cruel to prevent the horse from letting the rider know the rider’s hands were much to harsh in using the curb.
Most of the time these days, when I see a beautiful photo of an upper level horse in a double-bridle, I look for the tell-tale ridge across the horse’s nose where the crank has been tightened down. Like toe-flipping, shortened necks, breaking behind the poll, and being behind the vertical, I think a great deal has been lost in the creation of dressage in today’s show ring.
I also started riding in the “dark ages” and I agree with you.
Drop nosebands are very much the norm within the Icelandic community. I own one, but I haven’t been using it for the past few months. My mare goes the same with or without her drop noseband and I’ve become a minimalist when it comes to tack. The less items I have to put on my horse, the better! I do think that nosebands have their place, but they should always be fitted properly and used fairly. Using one that either straps a horse’s mouth shut or restricts the airways is never appropriate!
Personally, the only bridle I use that has any kind of noseband is the bitless bridle one of our mares is ridden in.
Despite the fact that I do not often use nosebands, I was disappointed by the previous post on the subject. There IS a place for nosebands and not all of them are restrictive or painful. Some nosebands (like those used to keep the horses mouth shut when it is trying to evade the bit) mask problems and I don’t like that, I would rather people focus on what is causing the issue in the first place instead of using a band aid, but that is not to say that all nosebands are inherently evil. I have NO problem with them, provided they are used correctly. I don’t personally see the point in using them a lot of the time, but there ARE certain situations where they are useful – even if it’s just to make a bridle look more ‘finished’ at a show.
http://www.operationhorserescue.blogspot.com
VERY OT:
The other day I was reading an article that ranked the 10 most popular strategies for helping the poor according to their effectiveness in terms of impact per dollar spent (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/february/popular-strategies-helping-the-poor.html). The one that caught my eye was their number two – Fund de-worming treatments for children. It said that intestinal worm infestation affects one in four people worldwide. It is way less than one in four in the US, so it must be way more than that someplace else.
It also said the three projects that they rated the most effective failed to attract much donor interest. Very few people in the US have experienced or seen a debilitating worm infestation, so they may not realize how bad it is. It occurred to me that the readers here who engage in or are interested in equine rescue would have seen bad worm infestations in horses.
Think of a picture you have seen of skinny, listless, worm-laden horses and replace the horses with children. If you want to help, check out the following web sites. They are both non-Christian, if that is a concern to anyone.
DewormTheWorld.org
ChildrenWithoutWorms.org
“On the other hand, I’ve ridden OTTBs that would grab the bit in their teeth and bolt at the jumps when you tried to work them over fences and found that a properly adjusted flash or grackle made a world of difference for our safety.”
My first horse was an OTTB, and when I went to get him a bridle that fit (he needed cob size, not a full size done up to the last buckle everywhere) the lady at the tack shop asked me what sort of horse I had. She recommended a flash-this was way before they were popular-and a fat copper snaffle.
He went well in that, but I never had the thing cranked tight, it was more of a precaution as Snarky said above. As far as throatlatches go I was taught 4 fingers should be able to be fit in between throatlatch and horse’s cheek, and still fit them that way. When I used that bridle on other horses later I’d take the flash off and use the same bit (if it fit them). I found most went well in it and they seemed to like the copper snaffle.
With the horse I did the most dressage with I never used a flash/crank….he didn’t need it so he didn’t wear one.
“I’ve been riding in dressage barns a lot lately and it seems no horse is ridden in anything other than a crank, simply because that’s the style. ”
And that is what is wrong with the use of cavessons and nosebands. It’s also what’s wrong with a LOT of other aspects of showing and riding. This is not a viewing of the Rich and Famous, nor are we children in school trying to get an A from our teachers, or a dance from the cute guy five seats down. We are adults, riding animals who depend upon us for their welfare. If you choose to put something on your horse because it is the style, it might be wise to consider whether you are doing ANY good for your horse with that style choice.
If you don’t believe me, or find yourself disagreeing, I just want to remind you that in Tennessee Walking Horses several dozen years ago, the ‘style’ was for more action in front and push from the hind end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kYb0er9mbk 2011 Mississippi Charity Horse Show Stake Class.
If tight nosebands, or any nosebands at all are ‘the style’, that is all the more reason to avoid them unless specifically dealing with an issue that requires that training aid. A noseband in the show arena, at best, covers up problems the horse is having. At worst, it is… yes… in style. Just like those horses in that video up above.
I think this is true with martingales in jumping too. I’ll bet you most horses don’t really need them, they’re just “in style.”
Bear in mind that a running martingale also prevents the reins from being pulled over the horse’s head in the event of a fall. A lot of jumpers, foxhunters and eventers use them for that safety reason rather than because their horse needs them.
After reading that post, I went to my lesson and left the noseband looser than usual.
We proceeded to have a lesson where everything meant canter and nothing meant stop cantering.
/facepalm
I’ll keep it in mind for my future horse but…maybe not for my current lesson beastie.
Oh dear. Give ‘em an inch and they take the mile (at 40 mph ;o)
LOL! Yeah, Mr. Sharkfin went through a phase where riding without a flash meant everyone else cleared out of the ring. I had leased him out for awhile and the coaching my leasor was getting was… let’s say, confusing him. So he decided that if he wasn’t sure what his rider wanted, he would brace against the bit and run. Worked when he was a racehorse! Could I have fixed the issue without using the flash? Possibly. Did the flash help? Definitely!
why do people have a problem with you having a different view than mugly? you weren`t snarky *lol* or nasty, so go along, post your opinions rather than quoting those of others.
in my opinion the bridle of the brown fellow is poorly fitted onto him. the cheekpieces seem to be too long (can`t see it clearly) which leads to a tangling bit that i also don`t like. (i like the bits loose, not these, i didn`t want people to see that i can`t stop my horse, so i`m using this bit – things, also the three ring pessoa is such a bit to me
- might only be my thinking.) the drop band is too low, so it`s just a: please don`t do it this way picture. plus i personally wouldn`t use such a bit combined with a dropped noseband. because i weren`t too sure, if this really couldn`t cause pain in the corners of the horses` mouths.
i would have loved to see the rest of the horse on the black and white photograph – that seems to be really nice =).
but although i don`t like the way the noseband is used on the brown horse i don`t think that nosebands, if used properly are a problem for horses. they don`t interfere with their breathing, don`t cause pain, look good (at least for some of us
and stabilize the bit in the horses` mouth. even the so not liked cranked nosebands do that.
it`s better to start a campaign against closing them tight than fighting against the complete usage of them – at least in my view, you can post different opinions *lll*.
Charm (and snugly and snarkly…)
I would LOVE to see somebody take on the “What a Horse” TV show… they love to glorify this awful way of going. They rationalize and bully people into accepting that these horses are not abused. Many, if not most… maybe even ALL of them are.. it’s well hidden and swept under the rug.
TWHBEA (Tenn Walking Horse Breeders and Exhibitors Association) condones it… after all, there is money and glory to be had in the Big Lick ‘circles’. They’ll slap a sanction or a suspension on a trainer who gets caught, then welcome him back into the fold within a year or two. THey are deaf to the cries of sane people – because money talks louder than sanity does, amongst the good ole boys and the ‘new folk’ who have been lured into the fold by expert ‘salesmanship’ of flim-flam rationalizers who care NOTHING about the well being of horses.
In my opinion, even the mere act of building up young feet with pads and stacks (they put the ‘big feet’ on yearlings, even.. to start ‘building’ the gait) *has* to toss the entire musculoskeletal system into unfriendly patterns… The ones that don’t ‘make the cut’ end up being sold as ‘trail horses’… many of them never get over the wild eyed frantic demeanor they were taught was expected of them when they were young.
sigh.
Like so many others Walkonaire wants to paint a picture that says all Walking Horse Trainers are abusive to their horses. This person even goes as far as to imply all horses that show, are abused. I have never seen a built up set of pads on a yearling but this person comes out and says it is done. I have seen a flat on them and that is more or less for protection.
Recently there were 3 people found guilty of abusing a horse at a Spotted Horse show and the trainer who was convicted said all trainers had to do it to get our horse to walk which any one who owns a Walking Horse knows that is not true. The USDA doesn’t agree with that statement either in response was the following
“The exaggerated gait can be achieved with proper training and considerable time, however, some horse exhibitors, owners, and trainers have chosen to use improper and inhumane training methods to shorten the time it would take to produce a higher gait without abusive practices.” –Dr. Rachel Cezar, Horse Protection National Coordinator, U.S. Department of Agriculture”
As for my bullying tactics you have just read them. I respond to untrue posts and assumptions with facts and do not try to trash one breed to cover up for another like so many do. In the Equine World all breeds have their problems, we in the Walking Horse Breed are dealing with ours. It was one of our HIO Organizations that did the inspecting of the horse that was found to be pressure shod and the DQP that found the device didn’t know what it was and had to ask. Some say this trainer’s method is wide spread, but is it. If the DQP was not trained to know what this was how wide spread could it have been. It is done and the methods shared but it is the group that the majority of Walking Horse owners and Trainers want out of the breed and today we have 3 less to worry about.
Jerry Harris ofthe What A Horse TV Show
“The exaggerated gait can be achieved with proper training and considerable time, however, some horse exhibitors, owners, and trainers have chosen to use improper and inhumane training methods to shorten the time it would take to produce a higher gait without abusive practices.” –Dr. Rachel Cezar, Horse Protection National Coordinator, U.S. Department of Agriculture”
Well said, Jerry. That leaves me with a simple question. If the exaggerated (warped) gait can be achieved with considerable time and training, what is considered considerable time? And do 2 year olds show on stacks with chains?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y Oh wait, don’t answer that. Found a video of a June class of 2 year olds on stacks with chains.
Jerry, you have a problem. Either your beloved trainers are taking considerable time (would we all agree that would require at LEAST six months of training? Probably closer to a year or three?) to get a young two year old ready for the ring, resulting in … yes… a yearling on stacks. OR they aren’t taking the time and training needed to “produce the gait without abusive practice.” It’s the quote that you posted, Jerry. Aside from the rather ludicrous results of this type of training, your beloved quote points out the inherent flaw in the logic you present to the public. Either the industry is putting babies on stacks, or they are throwing two year olds (which most on here are going to argue are babies, anyway) onto stacks and into the ring within weeks or a couple of months, which according to the USDA requires abusive or soring practices.
There, feel better, Walkonaire?
Speaking of “questionable equipment,” have you seen this nightmare??
It’s been shared around among horsepeople on Facebook: http://www.horsecare.org.za/hackney-stud-inspection-n-cape/
What sort of animal-hater would think of using baling twine tied around a horse’s jaw & neck??
Horrifying; I hope karma comes around to give the torturing “trainer” what s/he deserves!
One that has probably tried numerous other methods and found that were less effective than the baling twine…
Think about that for a minute and try not to lose your lunch
Did you look at the photos? Is there REALLY any way to justify doing that to an animal? Really??
I’m not sure if I should take this as you being upset with me, because it comes across as though you think I was okaying this sort of behavior. I did no such thing. It’s disgusting what that person did. So I’m wondering if you misunderstood what I said, since I’m assuming you read it. That being said:
I DID look at the photos. I WASN’T justifying the use of the baling twine, as I already said. I was agreeing with you. I was answering your question, pointing out that someone who thinks to use baling twine in that manner (“what sort of animal-hater…?”) is likely someone who’s used other, equally horrible methods for what they’re attempting to achieve. It doesn’t make the baling twine better or justify it’s use, it makes the whole entire situation worse. It’s a thought that turns my stomach and I assume would turn yours as well.
I’ll never forget this one time when my parents were selling – really cheap – some farm supplies, including some pony driving equipment. This guy showed up to get it and was going on and on about driving his ponies, and was just DYING to share some “secret tricks” with us. One was that if you have a pony who likes to go too fast and won’t stop, you can take several strands of baling twine, tie them together to make a looooong skinny rope, then put the baling twine under the top lip and over the gums, run it through the bit, and back into your hands along with the reins. He laughingly said “THAT’ll make’em stop!” We politely explained that our ponies stop because we have trained them to do so on voice command… It’s unfortunate how “inventive” these people can be…
if you want to share your opinion that this is animal cruelty at its best, you can do that here:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/23/South-Africa-Stop-Hackney-Stud-Abuse/?cid=FB_TAF
please feel free to sign against this “training method” of these poor hackneys
I think you start getting in trouble when the words “always’ or “never” enter the conversation. Usually the first thing I do with my dressage bridles is take off the flash strap (they make dandy bucking straps). However, I will occasionally use one on a young horse who does too much playing with the bit. I don’t tighten it down, just enough to stabilize the bit in his mouth and help prevent him putting his tongue over it. They have plenty of opportunity to figure out the bit before we get to that point, but once in a while one will persist in playing too much, and that’s when the flash comes out. I don’t want the horse to develop the habit of wallering the bit around in his mouth, after he’s had a grace period to get used to it –generally mine start carrying it quietly at least by the end of second time they wear it, if not the end of the first. If they are still fiddling after a week — time for the flash, before that behavior becomes established.
I don’t honestly think there’s a lot to be gained by a tight noseband or a tight flash strap as it creates tension and resistance in the horse’s mouth, and is antithetical to producing the softening the horse needs.
Like this post!
I have to admit one thing that turned me off Mugly quite a bit was the “noseband” post. I ride English, and use a D ring snaffle with a plain old cavesson noseband, fairly loosely fitted. I do the hunters–so no noseband is not an option in competition, and sue me, I like how a simple, classic English bridle looks. But suddenly all noseband users could be made out to be abusers–and I didn’t like that. Like any piece of equipment, nosebands can be misused and become instruments of abuse. A saddle can be abusive if it doesn’t fit right and causes pain and a rider just keeps right on using it, ANY bit can become an instrument of torture in the wrong hands, or if improperly fitted, or is worn and pinching, etc. Nosebands are no different. But like saddles, and like bits, in the right hands, used the proper way, they are equipment. I always ride with my noseband quite loose–I have had a couple coaches comment that I need to crank it tighter and that I was “being too nice.” I ignored this advice, and no longer ride with either of them.
That being said, I don’t have any experience at all with “crank” nosebands as I don’t really enter the dressage world that often. I don’t even see that many flash or figure eight nosebands either–I work and ride at hunter barns, with good coaches, who use actual training rather than gimmicks to get the job done. So it could be that all “crank” nosebands are abusive, but I can’t really make a statement on that.