Rules and Such
Dec 02 2011
Final day for FHOTD entries: Dec. 7
Will shoot for a decision by Dec. 14
New FHOTD format will be decided by the new writer – I strongly suggest rotating guest bloggers, but that will be somebody else’s deal.
Don’t know about you guys, but I never felt snapping at the ankles of the job interviewer was a good way to land a gig. Just sayin’.
I’ll start posting some of the better entries…it would be more fun to post the really bad ones, but that’s why I have to leave, I’m just not snarky enough.
Talk to you soon.
71 comments to “Rules and Such”
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I like the rotating writers idea. With Cathy gone the next best thing would be if some of her better posters would step up! I would love to see this blog going back to it’s roots a bit and actually talk about conformation, too…
If I can nominate someone it would be Snarkyrider. I know I am not creative or patient enough to be a good writer.
For years now, I have enjoyed Fugly and Mugwump. I had to limit my computer time since I realized that my “real life” was more important than reading of others’.
I popped over to the FreeSpeechForum this week for the first time in quite awhile. There, people are pretending to be better than Fugly, to be snarky, to be “honest,” and to be knowledgeable. My first post since 2008, and I was blasted out of the water because my idea of a good trim didn’t match the most vocal and vicious posters. Wow. I run a small horse business, I don’t have time to devote to an artificial world as some of those posters do.
A Secret Santa receives a kindle ? Hello ?? I can get two of my horses trimmed for that.
Anyway, something caught my attention today and I came to FUGLY, not to the other place. Someone posted on Craiglist because he was flat broke, the hay bank was empty and he was told to feed his horses corn stalks. I wanted to post that someone that ignorant, that ill-prepared didn’t need horses, but then I remembered being flat broke and my own horse-related mistakes.
So, whomever you pick, please allow the honest members a place to post !
Thanks to both of you and to all of the intelligent posters that come here!
Oh, yes, I like the rotating blogger idea, and I LOVE the idea of posting the bad or down right silly applications.
Well… I’ve been following this for, lo these many years. Got a little bored (miffed) when it went off on the Pacific northwest, anger, attack mode. I really enjoyed the ‘early’ days when we all learned a little bit about conformation, and what quality horses were deemed as such. I have to admit to a ittle bit of interest when fugly outed certain folks, but it got so nasty, that I stoppped listening.
To whomever may wish to take this blog on: IMO what made it worth following was the posts that centred around conformational faults, (and why not to breed), snarky comments about unsafe practises, especially with kids in the ad. Deliberate attacks on particular barns ( rescue or not) Especially since these were so localized, I found both offensive and frankly, useless.: specially since this board is international. Well, anyway… It used to be informative. Perhaps it can be again.
Oh… And has anyone else noticed that there have been only positve posts alloved to be published on this particular thread… hMMM Let`s see if this makes it `public`
Sorry to bum you out Fjordie – but no comments have been cut, modified or changed for quite some time.
A little late, but I agree that the localized attacks on the people and rescue sent a lot of us not located in the Pacific NW away from the site. I really like you Mugly. I liked the new “tone” that wasn’t as negative. Even though you were critical, you had a sense of humor.
I don’t like the rotating writers idea. Surely the whole point of a blog is to have an account of a writer’s personal perspective on a subject matter.
This one was always challenging but with snark and humour and a strong sense of purpose.
That’s long gone.
Maybe the blog just died or ran it’s course when the real FUgly left.
I know, just get Cathy back, now more than ever, she needs to come back, with what the Obamination has done!!!!
If people would stop drinking the Anti-Obama kool-aid and actually learn the FACTS they would realize that the bill Obama signed was THE ENTIRE USDA BUDGET THROUGH (I think) THE END OF DECEMBER. It was a Congressional Committee of exactly three (3) people that took out the wording to ban USDA funds going to inspection of horsemeat. The USDA’s budget bill had passed through BOTH Houses of Congress with enough support that IT WAS IMMUNE TO A PRESIDENTIAL VETO. ALSO, even if Obama HAD been able to Veto, doing so would’ve cut off ALL of the USDA’s funds IMMEDIATELY – which would mean no Food Safety and Inspection Service, EVEN LESS USDA officials at Big Lick TWH shows, no US Forest Service, Natural Resource Conservation Service, etc., etc., etc.
I mean gosh guys what are you gonna blame Obama for next, the murder of Jimmy Hoffa? Global Warming? The American Civil War?
Seriously, learn the basics of how the American government works before you point fingers and threaten with pointy sticks.
I happen to know the facts and as far as I’m concerned the pointy stick is more than warranted, but that’s not to say he’s the only political figure who deserves it. Slaughter is all about PR/propaganda and the greed and corruption between special interest groups and politicians, in this case Big Ag and the choke hold they have on America. Obama’s legacy is no secret and he played his usual role in this lie that slaughter is good for horses.
- As a Senator, Obama cosponsored legislation to ban the slaughter of American horses and to stop their transport over our porous borders.
- During his campaign Obama promised to be a voice for Americans and our animals and to stand against slaughter.
- Obama has the power with one stroke of his pen to end it via executive order, per horse advocate R.T. Fitch.
Obama’s done nothing for the horses and let’s call a spade a spade, he’s a liar–but he’s not the only one. Somehow American’s must be able to get to the truth, the “talking points” of pro slaughter are documented bullshit. And, Americans must begin to hold government accountable. How many know the names and their states of the three who voted against reinstating the ban on inspectors, how many know where your own Senators and Representatives stand on the issues, how many have told government where you stand? Some hell needs to be raised though diplomatically, and this site could be pivotal in getting to the truth and getting it spread further IMO. Let’s not make this pro or anti Obama, let’s make it about the horses if it survives the change in authorship!
Ironically, I’m pro-slaughter – under specific circumstances – but I don’t think that slaughter helps companion horses at all. In fact, I’m one of the few pro-slaughter people that I’ve heard of who realizes that companion animals aren’t suited for consumption – by ANYTHING whether human or exotic animal – because of the medications that we pump into them I’d only support raising agricultural herds like we do with cattle. I’m also one of the few pro-slaughter people who don’t find current methods acceptable – it’s the 21st century, and the way we handle our livestock from birth to death should reflect our advanced technology and I feel that the way we treat and slaughter ALL meat animals needs to be reviewed and brought up to date before I can feel fully confident in supporting the process. Pro-tip: 24 hour cameras that are randomly audited by a third party would be a good start.
Rep. Jack Kingston (R-GA), Sen. Roy Blunt (R-MO) and Sen. Herb Kohl(D-WI) were the people who decided to take out the provision prohibiting the USDA inspection of horse meat. While I do identify as pro-slaughter, I think the way this was achieved was under-handed and wrong. Provisions like this SHOULDN’T be decided upon by a committee of three people, this is the kind of issue that the whole of Congress needs to vote on as a stand alone issue.
Though I will admit that I forgot about the Executive Order option, I do realize that Obama has arguably more pressuring issues do deal with like trying to deal with the massive clusterfuck that is the US’s political landscape and foreign affairs. We have to be realistic – the slaughter issue only affects a small section of the US’s population and so (unfortunately), in the grand scheme of things, isn’t as important as, say, continuing to try and jump-start the economy.
I hope whoever takes FHOTD over will throw some informative topics in once awhile in like Cathy did from time to time.
I think more informative posts covering topics like fencing, nutrition, conformation, transportation, etc could be beneficial to a lot of folks. Simply because there’s a lot of folks that aren’t very well versed on the subject that could benefit from learning from someone that has been there done that and has real world knowledge that isn’t the equivalent of a wiki-bomb.
I like the idea of guest bloggers but I think it would stay more focused if there was 1 main person and then maybe a weekly guest-blog-of-the-week or something similar.
Regarding post topics- what I would like to see is a snarky post featuring a fugly horse, followed by a discussion of exactly what is wrong with the horse’s conformation. Or a post about somebody’s horse who got hurt on bad fencing followed by a discussion of what is and isn’t safe fencing for horses and why. Etc.
That would provide the snark in an educational format. Not that I mind snark for the sake of snark! But why not use it to educate as well as entertain?
I’m all for outing bogus rescues but it would be nice to see more of that sort of stuff from places other than the pacific NW.
I also have been following the Fugly blog for a long time, and while I would like it to remain in the hands of 1 writer, guest blogs would make it interesting and have different perspectives on subjects.
I have learned a lot in the years of reading this blog, as previous commenters, I would like to see it return to more educational in nature. Poor conformation, bad practices. But also I would like to be kept informed as to what is happening in the world as far as bad trainers and farms on an (inter)national level. As much as people wanted to save horses from the kill auctions, I think there should be another place for that because being on the other side of the contenent from the Pacific NW, I find that information interesting, but also useless and sad.
Good luck to whomever takes over this blog!
I’m going to be frank with you… none of this is meant to be insulting so I apologize in advance if you read it that way. I liked this blog the best when it discussed primarily body styles/defects of horses and it was snarky, but not too snarky. As the blog evolved I steadily lost interest because it was just a long bitch session and it seemed to me the previous writer thought too highly of herself and her methods… (My way or hit the highway sort of deal). Then with the new writer the blogs just weren’t readable because they were too long. They may have been a good read, but I don’t know because they lost my attention and were too long… I think it would be great to go back to what FOTHD once was and keep it short and sweet… or short and snarky if need be, lol. If you look at a newspaper article, all the relevant information is in the first paragraph. Thank you for your work to keep the blog running, hope you are successful, sorry to hear you’ve had some rude comments.
PS. I’ve never posted here before, and post now because I think it’s important you hear from more readers.
SashaLo, I think one of the problems years ago was that that the blog was clogged with the same posters and the message boards dominated by the same people. Totally valid, well-thought out posts were not acknowledged because the clan rushed to either praise or bash each other. Who would want to put their toe out into the high school internet drama ?
I also like your point about keeping the blog tight and pithy. Most of us are too busy to wade through a long blog, and then 40 pages of nonsense posts.
SashaLo – I agree 100% with just about everything you said. I’ve been reading Fugly for years. While I agree with some and disagree with others, it is sometimes informative and other times just entertaining. If there are posts or comments I don’t like, I just skip them and wait for the next post.
Fugly was succinct. She said what she needed to say and then let the readers have their says. Mugly had lots good to say, but often was too wordy. The consistency was not their either. I believe Fugly used to post 4 -5 blogs a week. It was sad to see the frequency drop off so dramatically.
Fugly was snarky, which kept people coming back because they wondered “What the hell will she say next?”. Personally, towards the end, I thought her posts were too snarky at times. At work I could see myself getting into some serious trouble if anyone else saw what I was reading (at the same time, I couldn’t seem to keep myself from reading).
I’d like to see more variety – conformation, breed profiles, training, auction reports, outing asshats, rescue benefits, success stories, updates on past blogs (hoarders, stolen horses, etc.), tack, trailering, horse products and events, etc. I’m also a big fan of stupid Craigslists ads – endless amount of material here. The number of possible topics is endless. Not all of them will appeal to everyone all the time, but variety will keep some of the people happy some of the time.
I too, have been following FTHOD for a number of years. I found it informative and interesting. Occassionally the trolls would step out of the woodwork and it did get ugly. BUT that was mostly under the previous format, which allowed for a number of sign-in handles for the same person. Current format no longer allows that. I VERY SERIOUSLY MISS CATHY!!!!
I had thought from things I read before Mugly took over that the site did NOT sell. What I liked about the blogspot format was that posters who had blogspots of their own could in fact be accessed and that made for some interesting reading to say the least. That is how I came to set up my own blogspot which has in fact NOT been visited since the format changed in 2009. I checked.
I am not sure that revolving writers is the answer. It would not make for any sort of stablity. It would be nice if Cathy did return, but that does not appear feasible at this time. Rather a shame. But if she did sell this site it must be disheartening to see what is clearly coming: as a crash and burn sort of senario. When you give up, pass on, change management or sell control….. well sometimes it is a crash and burn to say the least, the mission changes…..
But the interesting thing is that when I first heard of this site on another (at the time) well known site that had a listing of over 7000 members world wide, FHOTD was in good form dispite the trools. That other site is still owned by the same person but has been through some… ummm… interesting evolution process and was apparently reformatted (again) and only has a very small following ( under 500) and I am no longer listed. That is a bummer. But as I stated above, people’s priorities change and so while I will check out things here, it does NOT look like a good sign no matter what way you look at it. I had gotten the impression the there was a stable, if not spectacular income from the advertizing here, but I am the least to claim much knolwdge of this sort of thing.
Hope it works out as there really is a need here for this sort of snarky review. But I am not optomistic.
D
Suggestion – there are a lot of things that could be done with this blog from a WordPress point of view, especially if guest bloggers are allowed on. I have had ideas for years for improving the layout and structure of this site. There are loads that could be done!
I saw someone suggesting a setup where guest bloggers could e-mail in their posts, and that’d certainly be possible. Or approved people could be allowed to write their own posts, and they’d either get published right away or they’d need approval from owner/”main blogger” (if there will be such a person).
I helped Cathy fix up this WordPress theme for FHOTD and helped with a few other site-related things, but I’ve never been in contact with Mugly. I guess what I’m trying to say is, that if help is needed on what could be done in terms of web development/community writing/whatever, I’d still be happy to help!
(But not write. I can’t write. :p )
No offense, I lost interest in this blog when Cathy left.
I wish I could pay her to come back……. heck, I’d pay a small amount every month to subscribe to Fugly if Cathy came back. She had the cajones to take on the abusers. Horse welfare is what matters to me, and I admired the heck out of her.
Interesting thought about the subscription, but if it wasn’t free access the whack jobs wouldn’t be embarrassed or challenged financially by their customers and funders reading the blog.
Honestly, I was fine with Cathy ripping people a new one. Despite what people say about it being too snarky, if someone posted something stupid and got eaten alive, and then posted something sensible on another day, all former commetns were pretty much water under the bridge. This site may have been harsh but the posters didn’t hold a grudge as long as readers learned something – I think that’s important. Obviously no points for sensitivity but kudos for letting bygones be bygones. (Unless you’re $am, of course!)
I understand that it would take a very particular kind of ferocity to fill the FHOTD Wellingtons but I think these days it’s less likely that an abusive trainer is checking in a sweat to see if their former customer has sent photos of their lacerated horse to FHOTD, or a prosecutor is having a peek to see how much backlash there will be if they let an abuser slide “just this once”, or a dumbass “rescue” is watching their bottom line slide because their slaughterhouse deals are being made public.
I wrote letters because of this blog (and SIGNED them
I called people. I donated money. I discussed the topics with co-workers. Hell, I even referenced FHOTD when I was did a workshop on the pitfalls of stupid online behaviour. (FHOTD did fine, a horse trainer with lousy training skills and zero self-governance didn’t fare so well.)
Not to be unkind, because I think the change in direction was well-intentioned and I applaud the effort, but I just don’t think this blog is making a difference anymore and that – for me – was the very best part.
I only fairly recently found this blog so I missed much of the “as-it-happened” of your overview, but from what I’ve seen I tend to agree with much of what you say. What was one favorite aspect of mine, was if there was horse news Cathy knew it and was writing about it. I overlooked some of her hypocrisy and her attacks for the good I found. Mugly brought something different, just not what I was looking for here.
Now there is an opportunity to re-think who they put in here writing, possibly somewhere between both styles, i.e., clarification of what is needed/wanted, what generates the most interest, more definition of what the “owner” wants to accomplish for what type of reader might be good. As a suggestion, I would hope Cathy herself possibly would be sought for input too rather than, as Mugly said a couple times in her announcement, that she’d play the heavy in the choice. Her short duration here and the inability to recognize the pitfalls from an already experienced blogger/writer leads me to believe it’s not as easy or exciting as one would think and perhaps someone with different judgment would fare better in the weed-out and choice process. Just sayin.
Good wishes to you Mugly, it looks like your other readers love you and your writing success there, and thanks for your time and effort here.
Sorry,
You’re stuck with me.
I agree. I learned a few valuable tips from Cathy. I had never heard of T-post caps or thought about the potential danger of not having them. After her post, I went out and bought them and had them on that afternoon. Also, learned a lot about conformation. I did get a little tired of the outing of rescues that were far away and I had no contact with.
I understand your point about the rescues being far away. It used to bug me a bit also, but then I started to realize that what ends up on Fugly blog has really ended up in the world’s attention. I think it’s a pretty good thing for a ‘rescue’ or an abuser to find out that he or she isn’t really hidden off in a little corner of the world. I think it’s wonderful that when some local schmuck messes up big time and tries to play it off or hide it, they end up with national attention for their payback. So in that sense, I put up with the ‘far away’ drama because I knew that by making it a big deal, we might actually force someone to realize that it IS a big deal. If nothing else, Mr. and Mrs. Bozo get to learn the hard way that they can be infamous in a big way if they mess up badly enough for the blog to notice.
i would love to see Cathy come back–In the past I did learn quite a bit about a variety of topics. It was refreshing to see someone who had the guts to take on the “outing” of many rescues that were not actually “rescues” just money grabbing sleeze buckets who were letting horses suffer just so they could make money off gullible people. \\
I truly hope Cathy can be persuaded to come back…
When do we get to start seeing the blog entries?
Personally, I don’t miss Fugly one bit.
She moved from being informative and educational to down right abusive.
I remember the post slamming a craigslist ad over a girl giving a horse away due to the animal needing medical care and she could not afford it. She was up front about the condition and why she could not keep the horse. She also clearly stated that she could not afford euthanasia. She also stated that she had a buy back guarantee with the previous owner who REFUSED to honor it. I was curious since this girl’s personal information was posted. NOT because it was in the ad, but because some reader took it upon themselves to contact her via email, pretending to be interested in the horse, getting her phone number and then blasting her.
This is not snark. This is not education. This is online bullying.
Something the high horsed Cathy got real damn good at…..and she would hide under the little phrase “it’s MY opinion” or “free speech”.
But then, she would refuse to give updates about her own stallion who did not meet the qualities she touted as being “stallion worthy”, yet she would blast every other stallion owner. When asked, she would point and say “troll” or “it’s MY business”
I don’t like the direction the blog had taken because she was a “do as I say, not as I do”. It was hypocritical at best.
And no amount of snark can validate your point if you are a hypocrite.
I like Mugly.
I like the direction she was going.
I felt she had diplomacy and grace that Fugly would never in a million years be able to achieve.
I was looking forward to seeing what direction she would take the blog and had hopes she could use the blog for real change in the horse world—
Now, no offense, but weren’t you banned from being on here when Cathy was the owner? So wouldn’t that influence your opinion a tiny bit? I respect that you have been contributing to the discussion since Mugly took over, but to say the least, you and Cathy had bad blood. I know a few of us thought you are an alter ego for someone who was featured on this blog.
Maybe that is one of the reason’s Cathy isn’t doing the blog anymore. People were taking her “opinions” as the bible of the horse world and it was becoming rather like a cult. Not everyone is going to agree with what is said. If you don’t want to read it, you can move onto the next post. (I don’t agree with posting people’s personal information on-line, by the way. That goes way too far.) Some posters were quite aggressive and very disrespectful.
Everyone has had a horse they didn’t like, a partner they grew tired of, a car they couldn’t stand to drive, or a boss they absolutely hated. You make the decision to get out – sell the horse/car, dump the partner, get a new job. Once the decision is made, it is a done deal. It looks like Cathy has closed this chapter of her life and isn’t coming back. She had a good run while she had the blog. Hopefully it will gain some momentum and keep going strong.
Couldn’t agree more! “Online bullying” is exactly what it was turning into. Cathy refused to believe that anyone could NOT afford to euthanize and dispose of a horse. She thought that if you couldn’t afford it, you were too stupid to have had a horse in the first place. She also did not understand us city-boarders. Those of us who pay hundreds of dollars a month, do not have 100 acres to bury a horse out back, can only afford one horse and would prefer that you are able to DO something with that horse other than pay the bills and doctor it. We try to find a good rehome for the horse, hopefully it happens, but if it doesn’t then we have to have other options. She was actually quite an elitist when it came to that, IMO.
“She thought that if you couldn’t afford it (euthanization), you were too stupid to have had a horse in the first place.”
Okay. So how much does euthanization cost, including disposal? According to comments on this post, it varies considerably. Perhaps from $100 up to $1000 depending on where one lives. So, lets say an average is around $500. I have a huge problem with the “it’s too expensive” excuse. If you cannot shell out an unplanned $500 in cash, you don’t need to have a horse. If you don’t have access to $500 or even $1000 on a CREDIT CARD you DO NOT NEED TO HAVE A HORSE. Horses are expensive animals. Horses are a luxury. Period. If $500 seems like a lot of money, YOU DO NOT NEED TO HAVE A HORSE. It’s not your right to have a horse if you can’t deal with an unplanned medical event that would warrant expensive vet bills or euthanization.
“She also did not understand us city-boarders. Those of us who pay hundreds of dollars a month, do not have 100 acres to bury a horse out back, can only afford one horse and would prefer that you are able to DO something with that horse other than pay the bills and doctor it. We try to find a good rehome for the horse, hopefully it happens, but if it doesn’t then we have to have other options. She was actually quite an elitist when it came to that, IMO.”
I’m trying to understand this. Really I am. I guess I don’t understand why doctoring would not be a reasonable part of horse ownership. Oh, and why “other options” wouldn’t include euthanasia or veterinary care.
This isn’t about elitism. It’s about being a responsible horse owner. If someone cannot sock away $1000 for an emergency fund, that someone has no business having a horse. Because although it’s nice to have a horse that will be able to “DO something” 100 percent of the time, in reality you’re dealing with a living creature who has the potential to get sick or hurt or just plain old. As the owner, it is your responsibility to care for the living creature of whom you’ve made yourself caretaker. If you can’t do that, YOU DO NOT NEED TO HAVE A HORSE.
I agree. I lost a WHOLE lot of respect after the post slamming that young girl (she was like, what, 13 or 14?? Holy crap people and you’re adults?) from like the Netherlands whose pony died of like pneumonia or something. This blog just became very “holier than thou” or “I would NEVER due that – I was born with perfect horse knowledge!” The comments have just become a forum for bullying and ego-stroking. Want to out an ass-hat farm pretending to be a rescue and starving all its horses, fine, that’s informative. But just making fun of people to make yourself feel better about yourself accomplishes nothing. People make mistakes. Unless it’s done with malicious intent, we should be trying to educate people instead of mocking them. And the high and mighty “oh, well, everyone has access to the internet they should KNOW better so they’re obvious an evil puppy-kicking demon” is bullshit. That’s what ignorance is – you don’t know you’re doing something wrong so why would you need to go look it up??? Bring it back to being educational and informative – the angry mob of “perfect horse(wo)men” with their torches and pitchforks is getting really old.
Are you kidding, NaughtyTobiano???
“She was up front about the condition and why she could not keep the horse. She also clearly stated that she could not afford euthanasia.”
Who in their right mind gets a horse but can’t even afford to euth it? What about housing it and vetting it? What about feeding it? I think if you can’t afford to end its life humanely you can’t afford any of those pesky perks either. If this eprson was so young where were her parents in all this? That kind of stupid ownership is exactly what the blog was trying to stop.
kt – Wow, I miss the Cathy supporters – They would make it very clear to you that you you have no business being near a horse. When they are sick or disabled you DO doctor it, tough nuts if you’d rather ride it or show it. Your job as a horse owner is to keep it well, get it well or, if that’s not possible, euthanize it. I can’t believe you feel you should be exempt from that responsibility because you “pay hundreds of dollars a month”. Newsflash!!! Horses are expensive and owning one is a priviledge, not a right! *GASP*
BRAVO!
I’m actually really sick of the whole “I can’t afford to euth my horse!” crap. Ok, so euthing a horse and disposing of it might be costly in some areas, but what about shooting a horse? Not my first choice, but it ends suffering none the less. What about a meat renderer? They will come out to your property for FREE, shoot the horse and then take it away. You don’t get paid for it though, like you would with slaughter, which is EXACTLY what I mean when I say that slaughter is completely about money and not about getting rid of unwanted horses. How many horses do you think there are that are killed quickly by a meat man as opposed to going to slaughter? Not a huge percentage I’m guessing, because people are just looking to make a couple of hundred dollars, rather than be responsible.
Also, good on you for calling out kt.
“She thought that if you couldn’t afford it, you were too stupid to have had a horse in the first place.” I tend to agree. Your planning skills clearly aren’t the best at any rate. Usually, a horse should be euthed BEFORE you run out of funds completely and let’s not forget that you can actually have a nest egg for this. I have a nest egg of around $7,000 and I’m only 19. I would think that if I can work my ass off to ensure my horses futures, then so can you.
http://www.operationhorserescue.blogspot.com
Dogs ‘n horses says……
“Who in their right mind gets a horse but can’t even afford to euth it? What about housing it and vetting it?”
The answer is….lots and lots of people….the same people who lease cars they can’t afford to buy (and trucks and trailers). The same people who bought houses with ‘creative’ financing with little thought of the future.
It is common in this area to just call the kill buyer rather than treat a horse say with cushings or founder or just old, the idea being they can replace the horse cheaper than treat it…..and most of them are convinced that horse slaughter is a humane end.
I like your other blog Mugly. It is different from this, however, this blog always had a value.
My nickname has changed to reflect what is current in my life however I have been around here a while. The thing I loved about this blog was the no-nonsense honesty and the follow up by everyone else with strong opinions (I appreciated them even when I disagreed with them). This blog has had a life of it’s own. I liked that the writer – Cathy – had the balls to stand for what she believed in regardless of the abusers or whether anyone else liked it or not.
Mugly, I think you did a fine job and I understood your points. There are some things you brought up that I forgot about questioning a long time ago (eg the value of nosebands). I wish you could have stayed longer.
Of course there was going to be angst on topics that, at many times, exposed deplorable mindsets and conditions and controvesy? While growing up, many of these topics were taboo or simply accepted. For people such as myself and others who witness morons in the industry, the blog provided the food on which we feed and we posted back. I liked Cathy a lot. I like you too, Mugly. So don’t make me take it off my phone’s favorites by leaving or picking some dimwit in your place. lol Seriously though, maybe you would change your mind and stick around. Maybe you could do what other blogs do…. weekends could be fun posts. Serious posts could be posted every two weeks. Just a suggestion. It doesn’t have to consume you and this blog can still do a lot of good during this critical time in our history …
Well, whatever (or whomever) you decide on, best wishes to you. I’ll see you around on the other blog.
ps Hopefully this came out right, I have distractions here.
I know this isn’t horse related, but it is justice related, and I wanted to do my part and pass it on.
I read another snarky blog called Regretsy, which showcases awful, unusual or simply WTF handicrafts from Etsy.com. The woman who runs the site decided to see if she could raise some money to help with the holidays for some needy families. Her readers opened their hearts and donated much more than she initially anticipated. Enough that she closed donations on the same day that she opened them, and had more than enough money for gifts. She decided to send a monetary gift to the parents as well as gifts for the children.
Paypal froze her account. Shut down the entire operation. Gave her a bunch of red tape bullshit, and froze the account she used for her donations(both for this Christmas, and for emergency gifts for her readers/deserving people, money that was both donated, and earned through the sale of items). They shut down her personal account as well, which had all the funds from her personal item sales(books and trinkets).
I know I’m not doing this story justice, but the entire story is here
http://www.regretsy.com/2011/12/05/cats-1-kids-0/
Fugly Readers do so much for the horse world, I thought maybe if they focused their power on this, they could help… Not that the Regretsy Readers are any less determined, they’re trying to get this into the news!
I’ve been following the Regretsy scandal and just wanted to let people know that Paypal is backpedaling, so there’s no need to get too worked up in the emails you want to send them:
https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2011/12/regretsy-issue-resolution/
Hmm. Sure would be nice if Paypal could pursue CBER’s actual scams carried out with the “Donate” button though.
I just wanted to update on this…
https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2011/12/regretsy-issue-resolution/
Just post a nice selection, say nothing, and let us decide which is good or bad. So much more fun, and you don’t have to be snarky at all.
Banned? Not to my knowledge. I think you may have me confused with someone else.
Was I banned? When did this happen?
Not a comment on this post, but I thought people might want to know the latest developments with the stolen college horses…
http://gohorseshow.com/article/Columns/Sudden_Scoop/UPDATE_Four_So_Arkansas_University_Horses_Recovered/36308
http://www.bannernews.net/blog/?p=7173#comment-20237
The affidavit. Am I the only one who really… really…. really wishes that these people wouldn’t make it to trial? Call me a rabid ‘cathy’ follower, but some people are just too rotten to jail.
Poor Credit Card, to have ever belonged to someone who maybe remotely crossed the path of this psycho loser. I hope she and her idiot accomplices rot for several years at least. I think most suspected an inside job, but it’s still devastating to realize … well, just O_O
I suppose we should we grateful in this case that the horses and trailer were valuable enough to bump this up into the theft big leagues as opposed to just plain animal abuse.
I always love a conformation critique, and have been sitting on pictures of a hideous Frankenhorse stud for months, who somehow got some high level wins and thus is breeding his fugly on to many, many mares, so I would love to see that come back to this blog. And when can I submit them?
Since I haven’t seen it on here, just to update readers, the poor junkyard horse in Mattawan was finally was euthed. \o/ The poor thing had a tumor bigger than its head, on its head, and was an emaciated wreck, but the “80 year old livestock vet” said it was fine, so AC agreed. It said the newspaper AC “got thousands of calls from all over the country”, but the vet said the horse was fine, so they just smiled and shook their head at the busybodies out there who have nothing else to do.
And is there really no law in Indiana that says you have to provide veterinary care?
http://www.wwmt.com/articles/joseph-1399138-mich-animal.html
And if the horses are obviously starving, and immediately gain weight when fed regularly, why can’t AC and the prosecution charge the abusers with animal neglect? I mean, if they have food and water present for inspections, then the abusers must have gotten tipped off somehow, cause any logic could see that the animals weren’t getting fed otherwise.
And the people complaining about the cost of euthing and burial–well it must be different in your area. Last time I had to to euth somebody, the vet cost and burial totaled to about $135. That’s the emergency “drive-out-at 2 am in winter” vet fee, it’s always much less if you schedule it, killshot, burial by backhoe, plus majorly tipping the guy, cause his trailer was broken, so he drove the thing for hours in freezing minus 20 degree weather to get to our place, cause he couldn’t sleep thinking about us having to see our poor dead horse out there. (Such a nice guy!)
If you can get your vet to let you euth your horse yourself, I think the killshot was $11–I’ve paid more for coffee at Starbucks. I have kept such things on hand when I’ve had old timers with serious medical issues that could go very, very bad suddenly. And vet bills can be paid in small amounts over time, usually a vet will work with you, if you are a good client, and ask beforehand.
I’m sure a well-placed bullet is in the less than a $1.00 range, depending on the kind, if you aren’t a fuckup, know where to shoot, and have a firearm powerful enough to do the job. And make sure it can do the job. No CBER, not even Obama has made bullets cost $100 yet. I would never want to shoot a horse, but in case of catastrophic injury, or something absolutely terrible, I would not let my friend trash around in pain for hours.
Anyway, both are still a better option than getting eviscerated and dismembered while conscious in a slaughterhouse. I’ve seen videos of it happen. The slaughterhouse people DO NOT CARE. Again, awake, screaming, and thrashing horsie getting its legs sawed off, while people pull out its guts and skinned it. Poor horsie was trying to bite, and got beat constantly till he finally bled out. Then they did it to the next horse, and the next. How can any person think that is as good as euthanasia?
Some of the slaughterhouse people think it is funny and get off on torturing animals. I lived close enough to a horse slaughter facility to hear workers bragging about scaring/beating/torturing horses for fun.
I know dumping the horse through craiglist/auction/whatever gets the dumper some blood money, and they get to go home and imagine that some person rescued their old broken down horse and will take care of them lovingly till they die, and thank goodness they don’t have to do it or pay for it, but that is a fairy tail with less chance of coming true than I do of winning big in the lottery. Don’t shrug and say, “Well, slaughter happens sometimes”. No, not if you make sure it doesn’t. Other people are not to blame for your horse slipping through the cracks because you didn’t step up. Your broken down horse is your responsibility, and even the horse you bought and don’t like, and he may be a jerk cause the person aced him when you bought him and you didn’t get a vet check, well, guess what? As soon as you paid for that animal, they became your responsibility.
Again, it has been a couple years since I have had to find out what euth and burial costs, thank goodness, but if you don’t have that much to put on a credit card somewhere, well, what would you do if you had emergency car repair, or vet care, or doctor bills, or anything? And I am very poor, but just a suggestion to anyone with something expensive to care for, horse, dog, children, you could put $10 or whatever you can afford in a high interest bank account and let it grow, as a safety net for a “very, very bad day”. Just forget you have it, until you need it.
I admit, the burial was on our property, not in a city where the body had to be taken elsewhere. I’m not sure what that costs, and we’d all like our horses to DO something, I’d love for my pushing 30 year old to be four again and go out and win big money and glory on the track, and then produce champion foals for me, in between us riding the “shore to shore” trail, and our amazing endurance career. But she won’t. She’s spent decades carrying me around, being my friend and partner, and now we just enjoy each other’s company, and I take care of her as SHE HAS EARNED. It’s called being a decent person. If you can’t treat your dog, horse, cat as a living creature with thoughts and feelings, you are part of the problem. Go get a sportscar to get your jollies.
Here in Western WA it’s MUCH more expensive. A friend of mine paid over $500 for a prescheduled, daytime euthanasia because she lived far away from both the vet and renderer. Tack an emergency fee on and that’s a hefty bill. It’s certainly cheaper for someone who owns a gun, trusts themselves enough to shoot the horse, and can bury it on their property, but not everyone has those options.
Not that I’m defending any “alternatives” for a sick or injured horse, just saying that it’s understandable when people can’t come up with that kind of cash on short notice.
You made a HUGE point….not knowing how much it could cost…..and herein lies what I see as a problem….
The U.S. is freaking HUGE and costs vary.
Friend of ours got a horse from the PNW but is from the Mid-West…..the EXACT services in her podunk home town would have run her $95. She sticker shock fell over when the vet called her with $498. BIG difference.
Same friend had to euthanize two horses: one due to old age and debilitating arthritis and the other was a sick horse dumped on them. She is lucky. She owns a truck and trailer. Her vet does not charge office visits and knows how to gently drop a horse in a trailer. It cost her $50 per horse for the drugs. She then drove 1.5 hrs to the renderer who charges $10 per animal if they have to help get the body off the trailer. Otherwise, it’s free. Her truck gets good mileage so it was a half of tank of gas ($35).
Total for 2 horses: $145
Some Midwestern facts:
Local vet who can dispose of the body charges $117.50 but you have to get to the vet.
Renderer starts at $90 and you could wait for up to 16 days to get on the schedule
Average cost of excavators to bury on your property: $175
Emergency Farm Calls are normally $100 plus trip charge
One vet does euth per pistol with sheriff observation: Free but charges a farm call
This seems reasonable as long as you have a trailer or can bury.
But, I also know of a man who boards, he got charged $300 vet bill to say his horse was dying. Boarding facility charged him $200 to drive to the vet 45 miles away and then he had to pay $450 because it was an ER weekend euth NOT a regularly scheduled. Total: $950
Shameful
Maybe a good topic would be for people to share region and how much services cost. It could help people from different regions understand how viewpoints end up so varied………….
But as Cathy would have said, and I totally agree: Do the research.
Seriously, NT, you did the research. You are aware of the potential in certain areas for expensive euthanasia. Others should be also. I know you got tired of Cathy’s belittling of people who didn’t think ahead. Yes, sometimes she was over the top. But seriously, owning a horse is like having a child, and in both cases we have had some real train wrecks thanks to parents/owners who just flat were too lazy to consider that maybe they needed to get educated. Gee, you mean horses are expensive? Well yes.. go to just about ANY european country, and you’ll find that generally only moneyed and landed people own them, for that reason. Heck, some Russian visitors came and rode my horses when I was a teenager, and they were in shock that we weren’t rich. They just assumed that we were filthy rich to own horses. In Russia, that’s the way it is.
We went from a time when people owned horses for profit, to work a farm or pull a cart, directly to a time when the American public was reasonably wealthy and frivolous, and could own horses for pleasure and fun, along with a TV in every room, a car for every driver, and many other conveniences. If friends of mine are correct, we are heading into a time of serious belt tightening– people aren’t going to be able to afford whatever they want. Including horses. I wonder if the horses will be better off, in the end?
This is another good topic. I recently paid $150 for the vet’s euthanasia and paid $250 for removal and rendering. Its a good idea for horse owners to keep the cost for euthanizing and removal in savings because you don’t know when the day will come when it is needed.
LOVE your entire post. Re: Sugar the Mattawan Junkyard Horse. That was f*ckin’ criminal. That poor animal needed to be euthed immediately. It was disGUSTing watching her for months, gaining just a few pitiful pounds, eating out of a rusted flatbed with sharp rusty rods in her horribly disfigured face. She could barely hold up her head from the weight of that tumour. I’m not a bible pounder by any means, but I think the town of Mattawan needs a good ol’ fashioned Sodom and Gomorrah type cleansing. Did you read all the comments from citizens bitching about how Sugar had been moved to the back, and they couldn’t pose their kids with her emaciated carcass anymore? And the huge waves of sympathy for the creeps who had kept this horse in that condition for TWENTY YEARS. An entire town of psychopaths.
Not at all snarky or bitchy or ugly.
But, I’m sure there is a poster who can be total buzz kill on this:
http://www.actha.tv
I personally LOVED seeing the different disciplines, the great partnerships between the horses, great suggestions, and loved watching the competition unfold.
Enjoy fellow trail riders!
Buzz kill? Not a chance. I saw a lot that made me REALLY excited. Among everything else, they made a real effort to showcase a lot of different horse breeds on the show, and also different riding styles. I’m aware that it was probably engineered, but there was something really cool about seeing Tennessee Walking Horses, Fox Trotters, Welsh, Warmbloods, Quarter Horses, and on and on represented. The interviews were well done, and I personally loved the quirky fun stuff that everyone was doing.
Best of all, they showcased STALLIONS. Yes, Stallions, being ridden on trails, performing for the watchers with total focus and joy and control. Their owners clearly decided that one real way to prove your stallion has the right stuff is to get him out there doing something that isn’t in a ring, going around and around. It was easily one of the best shows I’ve watched in a long time.
Thanks for sharing!!
I’d like to think I’m not halucinating…when I signed in there was music playing! Now it stopped. I swear I didn’t drink the Kool Aid.
I want to say to those who may be trolling through this blog and don’t know this already. Horses need shelter. They don’t need a 12′x 14′ stall a foot deep in shavings but they do need a wind and rain break. (Roof with sides, open SOUTH) Trees are not adequate to protect them from 24 hours of rain with temperatures dropping to the 20′s with high winds. Blankets that are waterproof offer some protection but yours are not. A horse’s neck should have a shape and be wider than a slab of bacon. Yours do not. Try feeding them – let’s start with a bale of hay a day for two. There’s also this feed called ‘grain’ that horses eat. Add some of this to the daily hay and your horse’s necks might get round and pretty. There are stores that even sell the stuff! Directions right on the bag!
Let’s try this for a month and see where it takes them. I’ll be watching you….
I would love to know the details of this one.
Winter shelter in the northern states is a great topic. A person who cannot provide 3-sided shelter due to township permitting or whatever excuse is the flavor of the day should at least drop the bucks for a weatherproof blanket or two or three. The poor animal should be checked now and then to make sure the blanket isn’t leaking. I get into a argument with at least one person a year about it. They feel their trees are enough protection and with their xx number of years boarding horses they think they know best. Any idiot can see the trees now do not have leaves. It makes me want to tie some people up under the trees when it’s a gusty cold rain to see how they like it. A 2 horse shed in a field holding 5 horses drives me batty too.
My comments were of a specific situation and I’m fortunate to live in a state where neglect is investigated promptly. I notified Thursday and a visit was scheduled for Friday. Waiting to hear.
I can’t in good faith drive by horses every day seeing dejected heads hanging on skinny necks with no sign of shelter and blankets that appear to weight 200 lbs. I’m a northerner too and driving rain in 40′s, 30′s, 20′s is WAY worse than snow. Anyone who feels that horses do fine with trees as shelters can stand under a branch and I’ll be under an umbrella. Let the coundown begin.
On the flip side, my horses occassionally spend a couple hours in the rain when the weatherman is wrong and it rains in the afternoon while I’m at work. When the primadonnas come into their stalls they roll violently, buck, rear, snort and carry on like they were doused in acid. I give the ‘do you have any idea how lucky you are not to live how other unfortunate kids live’ speech while they continue to give the you are sooooo meaaannn looks. And we’re not talking TB’s, they’re QH’s with THICK coats and more than a layer of fat.
A horse shivering in the rain without shelter is being neglected. Loving them means giving them a good life, which includes comfort.
I disagree. I know someone whose horses stay out all winter in large pastures. They have access to windbreak from trees, and they wear waterproof blankets as needed. She checks on them twice daily, at a minimum, and they live within sight of the house. The horses are happy, healthy, and not cold. PLUS they have the ability to move around in a large space, picking their spot to loaf and eating and drinking wherever and whenever they want. They also have heated water out there. Those horses have it pretty good.
So much goes into making sure horses are comfortable during the winter in the North.
1. Where are your wind breaks? If you can’t protect from the north or west wind, then your horse is exposed to the two worst/coldest winds.
2. What horses are out there? Can they ALL escape the wind or weather? Blankets go with the horse– a shelter may only be protecting the alpha mare and her favorite, and no one else.
3. What water source do they have? Heated water is the best, because they will drink more. Is it in a location where the lowest horse in the pecking order can safely drink from it? No wires exposed? Clean?
4. Do horses have access to 24/7 roughage? The single best way for horses to keep warm is to eat hay. Grain helps, and many horses need it during the winter, but it’s also harder to digest– hay is the best for creating heat.
5. What is the footing? Hoof pressure plus rain and snow and mud and freezing and thawing all together can create a beautiful ‘skating rink’ area in turn out areas.
I get what the point of your post was– someone is being a total loser to their horses, probably because Jimmy Sue wanted a pony, and why not get three, they’re so cheap to buy now, and well, we humans live in houses, so can’t they all just live in an equally small space? It’s just that I see people make the assumption that horses must be kept one way, which is the right way, and that’s just not true. Any given piece of land has to be evaluated if used for horses, and the treatment of the horses during winter is going to depend on many factors. Where my horses were before, they had great shelter from the wind (yes, even during winter). Where they are now, the wind howls. Consequently, I’ve made changes in their care, and plans to deal with the wind, since it is an issue here. Good horse owners do their homework. Sounds like the person you refer to isn’t even familiar with basic husbandry.
I’m hoping the stongest, ethical voice wins the new writer post. Occasional guest bloggers would be interesting (imo). But experience with blogging is also important. It’s not just developing a thick skin but also the grind of writing. Blogs that take days or a week between articles get reader turn off.
I’m not Fugly or Mugly. I DO have a horse blog though– and I think it’s pretty decent reading. Try it: http://mytevisjourney.blogspot.com/ My newest post is called, “American Horse Slaughter: Lies, Confusion and the Law.” Neutral, informative, a little snarky
Greenjourney – I hopped on over to your blog and liked it very much. Different topics, interesting, “no rainbows and unicorns”, no silly guru natural horsemen training hype, and no ripping some poor soul appart for riding with their bit upside down, but straight facts and interesing information. Nice job!
Help requested.
I just got word of a possible (very likely) large scale horse abuse case. Starving horses, down horses in the snow, dead horses rotting by the road, etc. A family member who lives close is going out to there right now to confirm.
Anyway, this a the typical Krazy Kolor Breeder with 60-70+ fugly colored half-arabs, last I knew. We knew exactly who the person asking for help was talking about cause the KKB has had her herd seized at least once by animal control before, and been in trouble with them more than that as I can recall. This woman has been doing this for over 20, maybe over 30 years now…she’s not going to change.
The person asking us what to do about them had been sneaking into the pasture to take the hay put out to the down horse by the road. That poor thing passed away. She said all of them were skin and bone and many aren’t able to get up anymore.
Anyway, if all of the observers call animal control, take pictures from the road (where rotting horses are there for all to see), what else can we do? I don’t want to miss anything.
First off, stay off the property regardless of how bad the situation is. Contact the authorities and ask WHEN it will be investigated. Print, date and provide your photos and a written, dated, notarized complaint – multiple complainants if possible. Diplomatically ask the agency to keep you notified of actions. If no action is taken immediately, given the dire circumstances, go up the food chain until someone gets their ass out there. Contact any State agency or ASPCA who will listen.
If seizure is warranted, offer up as many trailers as possible to help remove all the horses. Chances are there won’t be a sanctuary large enough to take them. Provide names/numbers for large quantities of hay and try to get the best deal possible and arrange delivery. Confirm that a veterinarian has been called to evaluate the horses as refeeding syndrome will likely be a factor. Offer up foster homes for the worst cases where monitoring round the clock is necessary. Get your friends to donate old halters, blankets, buckets, hay, hay pellets. Post rescue fund donation flyers at the locate tack shop, feed stores, large equine facilities even churches with a specific fund or reputable rescue. Volunteer your time and labor to help as requested. Don’t be a pain in the ass but be insist and kind. Be willing to testify if needed. It sucks at the time but feels good when it’s over. Good luck, let us know how things go!
Everything Blondemare said, and if all else fails, the media is your friend– force public awareness of the problem. As noted, officials have two choices if 60+ horses are starving– find rescues or feed for them, or euth them all at public cost. Consequently, officials are slow to act unless they realize that people will step up to help.
I wrote my comments earlier and seem to have had positive reactions as there are more than just a few “likes”. What I am seeing a this point after what … three days… is that “whoever” owns FHOTD at this time really does not give a damn about what happens to the site. Must not have generated enough money. It has been intersting over the years, but I guess this is really the end. Cathy seems to have moved on and this site will go the way of so many others. Rather a shame, but life goes on, now with out the education and entertaiment from FHOTD. The outed ones and $am and such have won big time here.
Would be interested in what the whole deal really is about……..
Charm, you’re one of my favorites, like it or not, but I must disagree with your disagree because It seems we agree. You have good, valid points and are the things I take into consideration. Sorry but my brief post was referencing specific people here who do not consider these things nor will they blanket or provide enough hay unless I have temper tantrum. It’s a damp cold here accompanied with the rain like blondemare said. Not all pastures are created the same. Some appear designed for prettiness but are not practical from a horse’s standpoint. As soon as the horse’s undercoat gets wet, their protection is lost and a stiff breeze makes it worse. People have to do the right thing when this situation arises. That’s what I get pissed off about…… people who do not modify their practices to compensate for changing factors or god forbid cater to an individual horse’s needs because it might cost them some time or thought.
I kept a thoroughbred outside 24×7, in the heat of the summer and the blizzards of winter. He and his buddies had a well placed sizeable shed and access to all the quality hay when they wanted. He never dropped weight and he was never cold. Since he was not cooped up in a stall during storms, he was not crazy during turnout because he was already turned out and he acclimated beautifully. However a shivering horse who is dropping weight and looks miserable needs help. That is what I’m talking about.
It sounds like blondemare, you, and I are in a similar area? I’m waving hi to you potential neighbors
but do not disclose where you’re from because I’m not really asking. It’s a crazy internet and I do not want to know.
Crap! This post isn’t going to be where I wanted it to be.
I like Charm too and usually agree with her but in this case, I’m sticking to my guns. I have a friend/boarder who I’ve known for 30+ years. She came to board a horse with me 20 years ago when one of their two old QH’s died. She didn’t want her 30+ mare to be alone. Those horses lived without a shelter the entire time they owned them. There was a thick pine grove and they fed plenty to keep them fat. Something must’ve been right because all their equines lived to be in their 30′s.
Now that her horse is in my barn, she’ll call to tell me how good it feels to know her horse has a stall and is out of the weather. Maybe because we’re older we can empathize more than we did years ago and are grateful that we have more to give them. I know horses can survive in nature with the appropriate care, even in Montana & Wyoming. I still stand by my thoughts that it’s a better choice to bulid a run-in than buy waterproof blankets.
QH, if you just hit record rainfalls we’re probably close to each other. My mud finally froze last night and I did a little dance today, until I tried to york rake the ring. I knew I should’ve done it yesterday, it’s 3/4′s frozen with lunge circle speed bumps, arggh! I have to say, even though we’ve had all this rain and muck, my horses’ hooves are in better shape than ever.
Heh, I found it anyway!
I disagree with your disagreement with my disa…. Ah hell.
I think we agree.
Is that allowed on Fugly?
I see your point, OneLuckyQH. And yes, cold rain is the WORST. People still scratch their heads when they see me pull horses in at 40 degrees, and leave them out at 10 degrees. As you said, if you listen and look, it’s pretty easy to tell if a horse needs more than it is getting. Shivering for more than a few minutes is a serious problem that indicates compromised health.
So yea… er… I mean no… errrrmmmm…….. yea?
What? Huh? uhhhhh, yeppers!
I also love horses to be out as much as possible, just saying there are limits and horsepeople know the what to and when to that you do and I do and she do but they don’t. Yea, that’s my point.
I should add that when my er…”ace reporter” got there, it was getting dark and there was not a horse to be seen. The dead one was gone. The owner does have huge barns to hide that many indoors. My car is busted and barely held together with duct tape, so it might be a while till I can get over there in person (it’s on the other side of the state). The dead horse was right next to the road where people walk–I hope AC came and took all the animals. Well I can hope!
I have a bad feeling that this would be like the mustang starver broad–AC wasn’t interested in charging her, because they didn’t have the budget or feel like taking care of it. I’m trying to get the address from “ace reporter” but they are in a lot of pain and having surgery tomorrow, so I should be happy they went out there at all. I will update when I get more info!