A Solid Foundation
Oct 22 2011
Foundation bred Quarter Horse
Geography was the biggest factor in deciding the breed of horse I ride and the style of saddle I throw up on its back.
Riding became reality over fantasy in Boise Idaho during my grade school years. My best friend in the fourth grade, Tami, had her own horse to ride and a colt named Sham. She also played a mean game of “horses” during recess and had the most realistic whinny of any of us.
She rode with a drill team called the EhCapa (Apache spelled backwards). The all-girl group dressed in beautiful Indian outfits and rode with no bridle, just a leather strap, called a tack rein, around the horse’s neck. They were so proficient they rode bridleless in the Rose Bowl Parade.
I was so jealous I could just spit.
Tami let me ride with her sometimes and through her I met other kids with horses. They all rode western and they rode either Appaloosas or Quarter Horses.
When we moved to Colorado my fate was sealed. Ranch broke Quarter Horses were what most kids rode and what I learned to ride on. Again, I was in a western saddle because it was all I knew.
Foundation bred Quarter Horse
If I had begun my riding career while we lived in Chicago I’m sure I would have been hacking in the parks or riding dressage. I dreamed of owning a Morgan like our neighborhood policeman rode. While we lived in Missouri I was fascinated with gaited horses. If we had stayed I could have very well ended up on a Foxtrotter, I still think they’re the prettiest of the gaited breeds.
Foundation bred Morgan
I was teasing a friend about being a “breed whore” just a few days ago. This young woman is working towards owning her first horse in many years and can’t decide what she wants. She loves them all.
I might give her a hard time, but I understand it, I just like horses. I can find something to appreciate in all breeds and I’ve never met a horse I didn’t find something to like.
My breed ended up being the Quarter Horse. They fit my lifestyle and choice of competition, but it could have been any other breed if my location had been different and I would have been just as happy.
Which finally brings me to my point. The horses I rode which made me a hard core quarter horse fan were Foundation bred horses. They weren’t called Foundation, they weren’t the up and coming “bulldog” style of quarter horse, they were simple, locally bred and trained, inexpensive horses.
Foundation bred Appaloosa
There were ranges in quality, but essentially all of the horses were the same type. The had big cheeks, big butts, kind eyes and good bone. The horses we rode were a congenial lot, decently broke and good minded enough to deal with kids.
To this day, these horses are what comes to mind when I think of quarter horses.
Fondation bred Quarter Horse
The Foundation movement came about from people who have the same idea of what an ideal quarter horse should be. There are no types within the Foundation bred horses, they are clear representatives of what the breed originally was intended to represent.
Foundation Morgan
During my years as a trainer I came to appreciate the qualities of the Poco Buenos, the Doc Bars and the King bred horses. I could count on a decent temperament, intelligence and feet that could support the horse.
Foundation Arab
The down side? The Foundation horses didn’t have the finesse I learned to love in my quick and catty cow horses. Their instinct could be keen, but they were not the athletes I wanted. They could be coarse, ungainly and slow to mature. They weren’t fancy. They were great using horses and didn’t suffer from the tics and frailties of the modern day blood lines I rode.
Foundation Appaloosa
When I have talked to other breed owners I have been told similar stories. The Arab of 40 years ago was a consistent all around horse. Great on the trail, great with the family, pretty and elegant, and again, solid conformation with good bone and feet.
Morgans and Appaloosa owners tell me the same thing.
Foundation Quarter Horse
A fellow trainer once told me, “The reason they quit breeding Foundation horses is they were slow and ugly. Breeds develop as time goes on and people are kidding themselves if they think going back to the “good old days,” is an improvement.
Foundation Morgan
I see both sides and I own one of each. My fancy horse is so Smart Chic Olena she is just about her own sister. She is quick, reactive and dynamite in her reined work. She is mind boggling on a cow. Training her made me feel like I had spent my life teaching chihuahuas to be sled dogs and I had finally gotten a husky.
My Foundation colt is sweet, steady and kind. He is as personable as the horses of my youth, pretty to look at and as willing to try as any horse I have ever ridden. He will be a pretty good cow horse and an incredible friend to ride through the years. Which is the better horse? For me it depends on the day.
Foundation Arab
Foundation bloodlines hold the key to what each breed originally represented, and what seems to be a secondary consideration at best in modern day breeding programs. Horses which are meant to be consistent healthy, intelligent, companions.
I would be proud to ride any one of these horses. I think my “breed whore” friend would be too.
Foundation bred Morgan
160 comments to “A Solid Foundation”
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I appreciate what you’re trying to say, but I think there are a few holes in your reasoning. Take any breed magazine and look at issues from 30 or 40 years ago. You will see a wide variation in breed type even then. I am familiar with both Morgans and Arabs and can tell you that there was not absolute consistency in either of them 30, 40, or even 100 years ago. I believe that this idea that there was “one true type” long ago and that modern breeding has destroyed it – is an illusion. People have always selected and bred individuals to suit their needs at the time.
Someone gave me a 1970s Arabian Horse Yearbook which shows pictures of show winners from across the country for that year. I can assure you that there were some pretty oooooogly Arabs showing 40 years ago. They weren’t the paragons of type then and they wouldn’t be considered that now. They were loved and appreciated, I’m sure, but they were NOT better looking than today’s Arabs.
Also, Arab people would not generally identify any Arab as “foundation”. You would be hard pressed to find a single Arab strain that trumps all the others.
What I think you are trying to say is that some people’s idea of “improving” a breed is really destroying it in the long run, and I can certainly agree with you on that. Have breeders in all breeds selected and bred for really detrimental traits in order to be successful at showing or other endeavors? – absolutely. But that shouldn’t mean that responsible breeders with great long term goals shouldn’t attempt to put together the best of all lines and let the breed evolve to some degree. For example – that blue roan foundation QH you pictured has horrible back legs. Foundation or not, there’s a trait that needs to be bred out.
So yes, breed organizations, judges, breeders, and horse buyers need to turn their backs on individuals with genetic flaws, bad legs, poor dispositions, etc etc etc. But don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Appreciate the “foundation” and many “modern” representatives of a breed that are a huge improvement over their ancestors and breed on with integrity.
I knew what I was trying to say.
I think I stated there were differences, of course there were. Of course there were ugly examples, there always are. I was picking the horses I would personally ride, I skipped a bunch.
My point was there were consistent traits bred for, I’ll say it one more time, temperament, bone and feet, that are often over-looked now.
I didn’t even hint that any of these horses were better looking than modern day horses.
I found the Foundation Arab references through the AHA, they didn’t tell me I was being irrelevant.
There is never a single strain that trumps all others in any breed and I’m not sure where I stated that.
The blue roan’s legs didn’t bother me a bit. The way she was stood up for her photo did, but that wasn’t because of her breeding, just her handling.
I’m good with many of the improvements in the QH. Which is why I own an extremely well bred, current example of cow horse. I do believe I might have mentioned it in the post.
I
I have to agree that there is not, nor has there ever been a “Foundation” Arab, The breed is far too old to be able to go back to it’s roots. A manufactured breed like the Morgan (bred from just one horse, for type and function) is quite easy to pick a “Foundation” type as pictures of the horse are there to see. Not so with the Arab. I suppose if you had to suggest a Foundation type for the Arab, it would have to be Crabbet, and the Crabbet horses did breed to a certain type (or types as there were a number of lines- I am most familiar with the “R” line) But the Foundation Arabian from Crabbet was sound and functional- not at all like the scrubby little ponies that Lady W’s mother and father brought back from the desert.
So, are the desert ponies the “foundation”? Not for type, that’s for sure!
You won’t get argument from me…I am not an Arab expert, and Crabbets were where I was led….
I had someone argue with me that my mare wasn’t *pure* Arab because she had a butt on her. Yeh. Spanish-Crabbet can cause that. Regardless of linage there are always those individuals that defy the expected. Those correct, functional and pleasant horses are the ones that need to continue. Types of horses most likely developed because it was Local, In this day and age we’re throwing the gene pool around like scatter shot.
Another great discussion.
But those scrubby little desert horses were what the Crabbet stud was founded on. There wern’t too many other Arabians around in those days – Skowronek was probably the most noteable of the out crosses.
As Mugly makes the point about the blue road, a lot of the photos of the original Crabbet imports show poorly photographed horses in less than optimal condition. They may not have all had pretty heads, but they were all sound and well conformed so as “Foundations” they did a pretty good job.
***”Also, Arab people would not generally identify any Arab as “foundation”. You would be hard pressed to find a single Arab strain that trumps all the others.”***
I read this post when it statred yesterday and had to step away from the key board for a bit. Miss-Morgan-Queen, it is very clear that you are NOT familar with Foundation Arabian Horses, bloodlines and research. Clearly have never seen the Arabian Horse Stud book in hard copy and spent any time reading VOl. 5. (I have vol 5 thru vol 39 in the hard bound. I am only missing the last five/six hard bound volumes before the books were discontinued for the Data base and have several older copies of that.) Reseach books include but are not limited to: Al Khamsa, Mary Jane Parkinson, Horse of the Desert, by WR BRown, Henry Babson, W. Kellogg, Gladys Brown Edwards and Lady Anne Blunt. Please note that I have in fact left out Lady Wentworth… Judith was a real snot and several of the remarks made here are truly inline with her attitude and personallity.
There are numerous FOUNDATATION ARABIAN LINES and groups that include heavy research into horses who trace in every line to Vol 5-6 of the stud book as well as CMK, Crabbet and Al Khamsa. These are also groups who stress their relation ship to the early foundation horses and promote the old lines in a preservationist attitude. Maybe one of the best modern day reseachers of FOUNDATION Arabian lines is Carrie Lewis. Her lines are Vol 5 foundation Crabbet specifically. (Alurab comes to mind)
But under the Crabbett heading there was in fact a great variety of Arabian types action and dispositions. ANYTHING brought into England by the Blunts was consdered “Crabbet”. When Lady Anne retired to the Sheiykh Obeyd Stud in Cairo she did start working with a narrower selection of horses, and a “type” was basicly set. Horses imported to the United States as well as Russia from Crabbet Park had a definate “type ” and were known for thier perormance ablities. *Raffles, *Rayseyn, *Raswan, *Mirage were some of the formost stallions imported to the US and they remain some of the best “working” horses in the world and work cattle as well. The Arabians from Shalimar Ranch are also working horses, both on the ranch, as Sport Horses and in the Dressage Ring. The fancy fad breedings of modern times with thier BN trainers and sponcors cannot do an honest day’s work undersaddle and do not stay sound or sane as the case may be. But look around and read the researh sections in many Arabian magazines and you will find that the old style working Arab and the foundation of the breed is very much alive and well. Just not nearly as well publisized as their horses work for a living…I and many others were sick when the AHA even changed the name of the magazine to the Modern Arabian over grave protest from “foundation Crabbett” and other breeders who of course are the life blood of the associations and do not want to “play” the fad games now being promoted and the idoits who breed SCID horses and brag about it. There is even a seriously wonderful book written around 15 years ago by Al Marah Arabians owner Bazy Tankersly. The research is incredible as she lived at those times and knew all of the wonderful old horses. My library is not as extensive as Al Marah’s, AHA. AHR or PS, but it is very extensive. And Carrie Lewis has a much nicer way with words. Today’s Arabians are NOT a better way to go in my opinion unless you infuse a considerable amount of Raffles/Raysen for substance, bone and disposition: show them as sport horses, dressage or go chase a cow. These are not crazy A-rabs, but rather a family horse who can work cows and be safe for the kids.
Kirri: we have a 15.2 Raysen bred mare who the farrier would like to use to work cows. She has a broader rear end than most of the Quarters around here… Manners, loads, trims and goes for literally hours without a fuss.
JMO,
Solet the flaming begin.
D
Totally agree – no flaming here! My wonderful old, solid, do-it-all-arab is Al Azrak on his sire’s side and Reyseyn on the dam’s. 8 inches of bone, short-backed, deep loin, legendary trail-sense and not a skittish cell in his (remarkable) brain! What really ticks me is when people say “but your Arab is unusual!” He’s not – his sisters and brother are the same – he’s what an Arab is meant to be.
I wouldn’t flame you.
Arabs are unique in the horse world as they are not the combination of several breeds to make one. Let’s take Morgans – Justin Morgan started it all, but his lineage isn’t known, and he was bred to all sorts of mares. If I remember correctly, there are three main stallions considered the basis of the Morgan breed – and their types are somewhat different. So it may be in fact easier to identify a line as “foundation” considering how much Justin Morgan blood is present. There was also quite a bit of Saddlebred blood infused (legally, not like the 1980s fiasco) until around 1940(?), can’t remember the date exactly. So a purebred Morgan is really kind of a mixed bag. Does that mean they aren’t good horses? Absolutely not, and the best horse of my life was a Morgan. He also happened to have a Saddlebred on his papers, but he was just the kind of horse Mugly describes – do anything, anyone could ride him, great feet etc. But no one would call him foundation bred.
Arabs, on the other hand, have been purebred for a long long time. To me, all Arabians are “foundation” – their influence is everywhere, in lots of other breeds, but no other breed influences the Arab. I realize that, as your post suggests, there are some who feel there are certain strains or families are more “pure” than others, but you won’t ever find another breed of horse on an Arabian’s papers.
I am not a fan of a lot of the horses shown main ring and haven’t been for a long time. However, there are still some beautiful main ring horses who can easily stand up to the test of legs, feet, disposition, and conformation, performance, and type. In the spirit of not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, I’d rather look at the horse’s qualities and not worry about whether they are “foundation” or not. Saw some great horses at Sport Horse Nationals this year and it doesn’t matter to me at all whether they are “foundation” bred – key question is whether or not they can perform. Some are traditional bred, some are modern bred – it just doesn’t matter to me.
And then I have my own sample of one – the horse I own now. He has bloodlines that the “foundation” crowd would just cringe over – Padron’s Psyche – and a ton of modern breeding with Khemo, Bask, and some Russian on his papers. He has some dynamite feet and legs, is 15.3 by the stick, has a disposition to die for, and is going to be a super dressage horse if I can ever figure it out! He’s everything the “foundation” crowd would love to hate.
Bottom line: being foundation bred is no guarantee of quality, and being “modern” bred is no sin.
ETA: My horse *on paper* is what “foundation” breeders might hate. I’m sure if they met him in person they would love him!
Morgan Queen:
Thanks. I have to agree that just because “your” horse is “foundation” does not garuantee that it will be a good performance horse or even a good represenative of the breed. I started riding on barrowed horses when I was in high school and could slip onto a school bus going to the general location of a friend’s home and walk a half mile or more from the bus stop to ride three times a week. One was an old Arabian mare (21) who did everything. I had to ride her bareback a lot or with the owner’s “english saddle” as she felt the mare was “too old” to use a western saddle on a regualr basis. Mare was actually pressed steel! I stared collecting information on “her breeder”. Her name was registered to Blaine McGowan, Forest Lake Arabians, CA. He was an original founder of the Arabian Horse Registry. But it appears that the mare I rode was actually a daughter of the old McGown mare and never registered by the estate when it was liquidated. Very different color issues. But that started me on a life long study of blood lines, history and collecting of books. While I recieved a lot of my books as birthday or Christmas gifts, one book was a reprint that was to be reprinted by “subscription only” at a pricey figure of $27.00 — way back when. My mother said that the price was too much and if I wanted it I would have to pay for it myself. Needless to say my name is in the list of sponcors and printed in gold on the front cover of my copy. (Book now sells for $75-$100 to start IF you can even find a copy.)
I started with “Fugly Horse of the Day” a number of years ago when it was with the .blgspot.com thing. I did a blogspot of my own which discribes my breeding history and ideas on foundation-working-sport horses-dressage. Not many visitors have been to the blog as I do not promote it in any way and no longer have a website (lost my domaine name in a snafu and will NOT pay the highway robbery figure they want to “give it back”) Arabsbredinmybackyard.blogspot.com was the blog site. Have no clue how to do a link.
Zanhar:
We have a Padron Legacy daughter. His last known purebred before Legacy was gelded and disapeared off the map so to speak. She was “trainer abused”— had been through four by the time she was five and Padron Legacy had been through four or five before they got him going right…, starved through lack of knowlegde about feeding a lactating mare, raised a half-arab foal before we got her. This mare is 13.3 hands, moves a dream, actually has a amature show record at MFF top five before we got her. She was halter trained at Cedar Ridge but was deemed to small to be competitive. We drove a very long distance to purchase her and the actualities and ramifications boarder on the libelous to detail here, dispite being the truth. But this mare has a for life home and will not be forced into a double bridle or harness again. She is a double “R” on the bottom side and plenty of substance, just not real tall. Not to mention a hoot to ride.
Padron and Patron were imported from the Netherlands. BUT the breeding stock in the Netherlands were imported from England/Crabbet Park. So the OLDER Padron/Patron lines were know for substance and quality and hot to say the least. Sounds like you have a “throwback” Good for you!!!!! Geldings are great! Kirri know what the Double R lines mean and was the reason we bought this mare.
Again, Just my Opinions and experiences.
D.
The Crabbett is one of many types of Arabians and I guess you can have a foundation for that type in trying to breed true to that type but the Crabbett is not the foundation to the whole arabian breed. There are many much older types of arabians developed simply by geography and tribes breeding different characteristics. Quote from the Arabian horse association. “The Bedouin valued pure in strain horses above all others, and many tribes owned only one main strain of horse. The five basic families of the breed, known as “Al Khamsa”, include Kehilan, Seglawi, Abeyan, Hamdani and Hadban. Other, less “choice” strains include Maneghi, Jilfan, Shuwayman, and Dahman. Substrains developed in each main strain, named after a celebrated mare or Sheik that formed a substantial branch within the main strain.” I agree some of the modern arabians in America I see I like to compare to Beauty pageant models pretty in a creepy barbie kind of way and useless. Plus I can not express in words how much I hate the black arabian fad it makes you want to slap someone as the Bedouins were very clear they were trying to breed them out. In conclusion there is not just one foundation for the arabian horse which is why type is a better term.
To be fair, the blue roan is standing on a slope…I can’t tell if he has horrible bad legs or if he’s standing funny.
MY concern is that the American stock horses – Quarter Horse, Paint, Appaloosa – have become ‘do anything’ horses and people breed them for this, that and the other, until they aren’t BREEDS any more, they’re just stud books. These horses are supposed to herd cattle, ride out on nice long hacks and sprint quickly over short distances. They’re not supposed, as much as I love the one I ride sometimes, to do dressage (He actually, when he’s not wearing what I call his ‘ear extensions’, does a pretty good introductory and will be able to do training once we fix his extreme stubbornness over the left lead, but really…he’s on the wrong coast and wearing the wrong saddle. He’s NOT an English-bred Quarter Horse, he’s what Mugly would call foundation. But I’ll say one thing about him. He is NEVER lame.) or be in the hunter ring (That’s one of the things Thoroughbreds are for). I don’t think these breeds have been ruined…so much as *diluted*.
Ah, no, the blue roan is standing on a flat surface. The camera or picture has been tilted. That’s an old photographer’s trick used to make the horse look better. See how the fence isn’t straight?
Come back fugly! This post is neither informative, controversial or entertaining. It feels like a repost from Mugwump. I like the Mugwump blog, but the new FuglyHorse feels like it is straying from the original purpose.
Personally, I think Mugwump is doing a pretty stellar job as our new blogger.
The attitude of the blog is going to change when the blogger does. That’s just a given. And not every post has to be controversial. Not everything has to involve major DRAMA. The drama is what turned a lot of good horsepeople off to this blog in the first place.
The name-calling, the insults, the trolls, and the giving out of personal info, the unfounded attacks, the flaming; those are all things that I DON’T miss about Fugly’s reign.
Mugly’s only been on here a few months – she’s still new. Only a post or two ago, she said she was going to dive into the world of bad rescues and trainers. Give her a chance!
“Now I see the same in the Arab world, taller is better. The ‘original’ Arab type was not meant to be tall.”
I don’t think the ‘original’ Arab type placed all that much emphasis on an exact height from what I can see, and there is at least some evidence out there to support the idea that nutrition etc may have had quite an impact on heights. Sure, many were shorter. I don’t think there was an attitude that bigger was better, but that doesn’t mean taller horses weren’t around.
Some of the very old Crabbets bred by Blunt were pretty tall, up to 16.1hh going on memory (I can’t recall which stallion though so correct me if I’m wrong!). The stallion Rijm was 15.3 I believe, and he was only a few generations away from desert bred – he was of the sire line of a very famous race horse.
There were so many strains out there amongst arabs historically that there was huge variation in type. Some of them almost looked like TBs going on old photos I’ve seen, but there also the more delicate looking crazy dished faces out there. Same with size.
I’m no expert by any means, but I do know there is evidence to support a wide variation in desert bred arab heights
The original Arabs were around 13.2hh to 14.2hh- this where the controversy about calling what was technically a pony a “horse” as in the Arab Horse Society” came form. Nowadays these stilt legged giraffes would be laughed out of the campsite by any Tuareg or any other true Arab, coupled of course, with the fact that you cannot actually do anything except look at the flaming things- the “show” Arabs (well, the ones I have seen in America anyway) would break if you actually, seriously, rode them. (No point throwing the one exception in the world up at me- show me 15 show horses that went on after halter to openly and successfully compete under saddle, then I shall listen!)
In Europe, unfortunately , we seem to be beginning to follow the fashion and the animals are getting bigger and bigger. I went into Arabs because I am tiny and wanted a real hose, at 14.2hh, to ride. When I was young I had no trouble at all with finding the type. Were I to be starting again, today, I would look in vain for anything under 15.00hh- ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous, and pointless. Nutrition had little to do with the growth of the animals, btw, they were happily bred at around 14.2hh for nearly a hundred years, it is only in recent times the height shot up.
Rijm was the horse that nearly destroyed the American Arabian Society- I believe the controversy did end one society, because it was suggested, and with complete accuracy in my opinion, that he was in fact half TB. Lady Wentworth boasted she could breed an Arab 16.2hh or 12.hh- strangely she happened to have the Greylight Stud of Welsh Sec A on her doorstep and she registered all her Arabs not with the AHS but with Wetherbys- the GSB- so an Anglo Arab would be in the GSB and a straight Arab would be in the GSB. This practise was only stopped a few years back.
When Lady W died ALL her records were burned by her stud groom, to whom she had willed a large part of her stud.
Some of the statements in “The Authentic Arabian” give you a real insight into this autocratic, single minded woman.
I am quite certain she was capable of selling a half Welsh as a 13.00hh Arab and a half TB as a 16,2hh Arab, just to make her point. I have had an Arab X Welsh that knocked , for looks and performance, any purebred into a cocked hat, as did all her children. She was drop dead gorgeous and just 13.2hh.
As was the purebred mare, Ludoet, who was also drop dead gorgeous!
If I had been Lady W my little half bred mare, who bred true to the Arab looks, would have been in my breeding programme.
She was Lady Wentworth, at a time when that meant everything. She could do what she wanted, and I am certain that that is exactly what she did.
Nowadays, with modern breeding techniques, modern nutrition and AI, we can alter a breed in twenty five years, maximum, for type, and for colour/pattern in around five years.
Breeding to new heights seems to be quite common in the horse world these days – and not just for riding horses. Look at the modern draft breeds – why exactly are they all 18hh and over? You see them being tacked up at fairs and they need ladders to harness the things, these were animals meant to be used on a farm, and I’m betting that needing a ladder to harness the thing was not a selling point. The ones bred for actually working are still on the shorter side 15-17hh depending on the breed – the logging horses, and pulling comp horses, but the ‘fancy show horses’ are all HUGE. They are beautiful but really it all seems a little silly to me, I don’t get the point of it all. Not to mention that ‘taller is better’ seems to be a common theme, when horse shopping the horse tends to shrink 2″ from the ad to in the flesh…
Same thing has happened to Quarter horses. People practically appologize for a horse being under 15 hands and sorrel. I love a short, heavy boned, heavy muscled, big footed quater horse, and there is nothing wrong with a red horse!
Unless you’re on cow bred QH’s. They are often well under 15 hh.
Tiresome, guess you’ll have to spend time somewhere else.
We’re horse people! We can argue about everything. : P
It’s lets us stay in the game when we’re not on or horses….
Well, that post turned out to be prophetic…
GASP!!!! The blog has a slightly different tone?! The overall subject is the same but the articles are…. different?! Not quite the same?! Could it be….. Is it possible…. That Mugly is a different person than Fugly????
Hold on a second, my eyes just got stuck in permanent rolling position.
Okay, all better.
I have an absolutely brilliant idea – I really like this new blog, but occasionally I do miss Fugly as well. I think we all miss her a little, from time to time. While I like the new direction of the blog, Mugly is her own person.
So, instead of just coming on here and complaining, could you please start being the new “old Fugly” so I can still get my occasional Fugly dose of cutting, hysterical, almost cruel humor? I know we’d all appreciate it. There are plenty of archives around here for you to read and practice with. Ghostwriting is oftentimes harder than just writing in your own voice, but I’m sure after enough tries you can lose all sense of individuality and write just like the old Fugly, or at least close enough that I will pretend not to notice the difference. Let me know when you’ve got it up and running – I look forward to reading your writing.
Or just get Cathy to guest write a few times a year??
That would give those who miss it, their “fix”
Yeah, guest posts from Cathy would be fun every once in a while. Not because there’s anything lacking with Mugly’s writing, just because it’d be fun to hear from Cathy.
I completely agree, I need a fugly fix myself. Now, if I can drag her off her polo ponies long enough to write a post….
Even with modern cow-bred type bloodlines, they look like QH’s. My problem is with all the appendix bred ones. A QH (or any of the stock breeds) were never meant to be 17hh +. Now I see the same in the Arab world, taller is better. The ‘original’ Arab type was not meant to be tall.
When I think of a foundation stock breed horse. (Quarter, appy, or paint) I think of a horse that can work cows in the morning, go for a trailride during the day, and then go to a fun show with the kids and do western pleasure , poles and barrels. I in fact have that horse. SHe is a nice foundation bred paint. She is my daughters horse. She will help with cow work, trailride like the best, and then can win in western pleasure at a fun show, and then go out and run a 17 in Barrels and a 24 in poles. The problem I have with the “job specific” breeding is that sometimes you inadverntantly cause the horse not to be able to do anything else but that job. Look at the halter horses who have been so distorted they cant be ridden confortably, or the ones so bred for running, they jig and jag the whole time you are trying to trail ride. Now I realize there are exceptions to this, and that alot depends on the training, but you all know what I am talking about. It is fine to breed for a specific job purpose as long as you dont lose those great qualities that made the Quarter/paint/appys loved by so many people. Cant we keep the breed the best in both worlds? Breed for the job you want them to do, but dont discount and ignore the traits that made the stock breeds what they are, a family horse.
That’s what I’m talking about!
I was just saying in a recent post how impossible it is to describe a QH to anyone. Height 13.3 to 17.2, muscular hindquarter to light hipped (HUS), quick and catty to leggy and long strided. There is no longer a breed standard. I bred foundation type QH’s for 10 years. My sire was big boned, size 1 foot, 14.3 hands, big stifle, long neck with a great disposition. He was a Leo great grandson on his sire’s side, a Blondy’s Dude grandson on his dam’s side. His dam was Dude’s Baby Doll (Legends 3). He was as strong as an ox with a rollback that could lose a seasoned rider even in his late teens. He had points in Trail, Western Riding, Halter with very minimal showing. He was also rump high and long backed. He had a bit of a choppy jog and a lope that you could ride all day.
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac163/blondemare/MaxinSnow.jpg
He was a using horse, intelligent and reliable. I still have 2 sons and 1 daughter with me. They’re pretty typical of QH’s from the early days and are registrable in FQH registry around 85% ‘foundation’ blood. They were all easy to get under saddle and are sure footed using horses. Perfect? Nah. Their destiny is to make me happy and climb rugged trails when I ask. Below are 3 of his get: the grulla is now eventing, the sorrel is collecting a bit of dust with me at the moment and the bay mare is an incredible trail horse and about as catty as they come. She should be working cows but New England isn’t the place for her. The dam of the grulla and bay mares is the dun after we won an NRHA class. Please ignore the geeky shirt!
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac163/blondemare/Horses%20Horses%20Horse/Maggie3months2.jpg
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac163/blondemare/Horses%20Horses%20Horse/Moonshine2010.jpg
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac163/blondemare/MaxMistyXmas2001.jpg
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac163/blondemare/TuffyNorthampton1992.jpg
Conformationally perfect? Not at all. The dun in the award picture is now 27 climbing trails with a gal in her 60′s so something must be ‘right’ about her. I rode the tar out of that mare in reining and trail riding. She left here sound as a dollar when she was 22 for her new journey.
To me these horses have the traits of a Quarter Horse as the registry originally intended. The breed has changed over the years and the diverse stock have become event specific. I like every foundation horse mugs illustrated on this post and not one is a conformational train wreck. If you want to see train wreck, look at the halter horses. I know fugs would support them if they were HYPP n/n but what good is a horse that can’t be ridden? Most halter horses have no athleticism and no ability to stay sound yet they demand huge stud fees. To me they are vanity horses and I think people should be ashamed at what they’ve created. A pretty, correct horse should also ride.
ROCKING RC RANCH, I believe I may know this place!
Topeka? I take lessons up there everyonce in a while.
No, but close, lol. I am in Iowa. If I had known how common that name was , I would have chosen something a little more unique. I thought I was being all sly by leaving off the G in Rocking, but there are still a ton with the same name, lol.
Wow, that second foundation Appy is by far the most refined Appy I’ve ever seen. It looks more like a warmblood than a stock type. (In fact, you’re sure it’s not a Knabstrupper?) You don’t usually see spots on that much elegance.
There is something to be said for the ‘old school’ horses that may not be flashy or talented enough to take top honors but are solid, usable horses. The very best animals manage to be both at once, and I’m afraid that’s something that’s getting lost in the endless quest for faster, more precise, fancier performances.
(I do feel compelled to point out that all your examples of foundation QHs are downhill. I like big butts and I cannot lie, but downhill conformation bothers me to no end. Here’s one that is level or really, really close to it and also has a nice short back: Lucks Dodger Bar. IMHO he’s not perfect, but is a good example of traditional, very usable QH type.)
http://www.rafterdsranch.com/stallions/individual_stallion.php4?HorseID=36&stallion=wartobystroubadour.inc
100% foundation bred appy.
http://www.mccoyfarms.com/html/wap_spotted.html
Mostly foundation bred appy.
Yep, there are good ones out there. You just have to get past the people who breed them because they are foundation, regardless of their looks or conformation.
Oh, wow. Those are some gorgeous horses. I’d gotten so used to appys from the ‘if it has spots, breed it’ camp, I didn’t realize there were truly good examples out there. You learn something every day!
I was not a fan of the appy’s mug posted, those hind ends terrified me. The appy’s in your post charm are more what I would like to see in any appy, foundation or otherwise.
YES. THOSE are what I was taught to look for in an Appy, back in the early 80s.
Appy people back in the day did NOT want a “spotted quarter horse.” They wanted a real quick light athlete with speed and endurance. Something a Nez Perce warrior could go kick some ass on. THOSE are some versatile horses!!
The trend toward full-tailed Polka dotted Quarter Horses has been an unfortunate one for this unique breed. Thank God there are breeders out there who still believe in real Appys.
And here I thought this post was going to be about a solid foundating in TRAINING. Any horse can be good or not-so-useful. It doesn’t matter what breed it is or its bloodlines. If the horse has never gotten proper training it is not going to reach its potential. I like all breeds, but personally steer away from Quarter Horses and halter bred paints. Everyone that I’ve owned has had foot, hoof and leg issues causing chronic lameness (some at a very young age). I love appendix QHs and other crosses though. Again, they have to have a good foundation i.e. training!
I have a book on making sushi. One of the first things the author says is something like, “It goes without saying that the fish must be fresh. Without fresh fish, not only do you not have sushi, you don’t even have food.” That’s the way I feel about horses – if the horse isn’t sound and sane, it doesn’t matter how fancy it is in other ways, you don’t have a horse.
YES.
THIS.
I get so tired of people patting each other on the back and talking about how far we have come in our breeding, I mean aren’t we just SOOOOO much better at it than those ‘OLD’ breeders? They just had no clue how to get a horse that could work a cow, or run a race, or ~insert sport here~.
What everyone is missing is that those breeders didn’t have chiropractors, 24/7 vet access, and corrective farriers. People couldn’t and didn’t spend thousands of dollars patching up stupid, accident-prone, crooked legged, weakly conformed horses just because they were ‘a great one’. If you wanted a great one back then, you better come up with a horse who could cut a cow every hour, every day of the working week, and then go out in the pasture with the herd until Monday morning, when they would do it all over again.
A breed is NOT improved by genetic diseases, hereditary unsoundness, and cute mental ‘quirks’ like trying to kill the people who work with them periodically. You want to impress me, create a horse that wins at ~insert sport here~ while still packing the kids around on the weekends and staying out of the vet’s office. We are a long way from perfection now– and without those ‘old’ strains, we might get so far away from perfection that we can’t get back.
Case in point, High Brow Cat. He’s basically sterile but they’re still collecting him and freezing semen for a stud fee of $22,500! AND, you run the risk of the foal being HERDA positive as they only guarantee a live foal, not a HERDA free foal.
Or how about Smart Little Lena C-1? The genetic clone who also can throw HERDA to his foals. Talk about irresponsible breeding practices. Seriously, is it worth it to have foals with no future hit the ground just to try to have a foal by these stallions? Aren’t there other qualified cutting studs people can breed their mares to? We can choose to eliminate HYPP and HERDA in one generation but choose to gamble instead. I – just – don’t – get – people.
Amen to that, sister. The utter crap being bred these days and passed off as even passable is enough to run you off from horses altogether.
Functional, athletic, sound and tractable horses have been bred for … oh…. millennia. Just because we’ve cracked the genetic code of certain colors (whoop de doo) doesn’t mean we’re breeding “better” horses. Hell, people will get their horses tested for various diseases and STILL breed them. ARGH.
Every horse crazy kid (and grown up) who’s new to the game should learn, first and foremost, that you CAN’T RIDE A HEAD.
Yeah, there are some functional issues with some head shapes, but in general, you should look at a horse’s head near the END of your analysis, not at the beginning. Humans are funny that way.
I agree with MHQ about the older saddle horses. I have some Arab mags from the 60s and wow….some are pretty gross. But we remember the good ones. Khemosabi, Bask, Raffles were prettier old skool Arabs.
That’s what I love about my Arab and why I bought him. He’s got amazing feet. He’ll canter on gravel like it’s grass. He’s got good bone and a lovely disposition. He’s a small 14.2h, but can carry full grown men with ease. I can take him to a hunt pace/chase and run breakneck speed through the woods in a sidepull, slap a different saddle on the next day for a dressage lesson then switch tack again for a gaming show. No he’s not going to beat anything purpose bred for any of those things, but he’ll try his heart out and look cute doing it. Even before I gelded him as a 4yo, he was so people oriented and friendly that I could see him living in a tent back in the Arabian deserts.
No he’ll never win a serious halter class or be a terribly competitive in anything except maybe endurance, but he’s sweet and tries his heart out anyway. He’s pretty and you can tell he’s an Arab, but isn’t typey enough for many Arab people. However, he’s built to last and I hope to be still having adventures with him when he’s pushing 30.
That was my Arab as well! We used to go team pen, jump, do dressage, long long trail rides and short sprints up hilly trails. He was sound barefoot on anything, never had a bruise or abscess. Only lameness he got was out of nowhere in his still (likely picking a fight with another gelding over his mare-neighbor) and was also gelded at 4 so he had a handsome little neck on him and thought he was a ladies man. Sweet disposition to where the trainer who had my family geld him said later he wished he hadn’t because he would have been the sweetest stud. He’s not picture perfect but like you said, enough look to appeal to araby people and stocky/built enough to appeal to non araby people too.
Yay atypical Arab power!
Psssshhh! Why are you quitting at 30? I hope you’re still having adventures in his 40s! I have a 29-year old welsh pony who will retire the day he dies. He loves his work (carting my 7-year old daughters and 3-year old son around) and wouldn’t dream of stopping him at some irrelevant number. Besides, he can’t do math and no one’s going to tell him he’s old, are they?
I adored my mom’s arab. He wasn’t the prettiest horse and actually looked a little more like a quarab than purebred. His registered name was Borafix or Boraffix…can’t remember how many “f”s were in it. We lost him last year at 28. We did everything on that horse. Mom bought him as a rather unruly 7yo and he knew stop and run. I encouraged him to develop some manners and he just did everything he could to please. I hauled him to a dressage show for a friend, totally spur of the moment and in his first test in the indoor, the sprinklers kicked on. He glanced up and you could just see him mentally shrug and then he just kept trotting. He was our do anything horse and had an amazing attitude. Big bone, big feet, a little short in the neck and a bit of a heavy head for an arab. For us, he was perfect.
This pic is from when he was 24 or 25 on one of our ocean trips, one of the last rides my mom had on him before he fully retired.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/knokehorses/ocean%20trip/DSC00531.jpg
FAIL Mugly.
Some of the horses you posted are butt-high, straight-shouldered and have steep pasterns. In fact, the very first horse you posted is all that and slightly post-hocked too. Her one redeeming quality might be a good shoulder, but it’s hard to tell for sure under all that mane. Oh wait, and she’s GOOOOOOOOOLLD.
If you’re having trouble, Mugly, allow me to draw in the most obvious parts for you: http://s818.photobucket.com/albums/zz104/horsefeatherfarm/?action=view¤t=palominoconfo.jpg
The bay being held by the kid is even worse– and he also has an awful, awful shoulder to match. The blue roan? Waaaay downhill, and yet another example of a big shiny horse on tiny, tiny feet that’s going to end up lame.
Not all of the horses on this post are bad, but there’s enough here to make me seriously question your ability to judge conformation. You’d be proud to own any of these horses? Gross.
Oh wait, you only care about “temperament, bone and feet.” Umm, what? Did you just justify breeding anything that’s sweet, can survive without a farrier and is solid enough to pack around heavy adults? I guess those standards do work– for backyard breeders and old time cowboys.
Your point was that in “the good old days” they sure did know how to breed some good horses– riiight. Sure they did.
Tell you what, let’s check out a couple of the most famous old-fashioned studs, well-known for influencing their breeds.
Let’s start with Northern Dancer. Trace just about any American thoroughbred’s lineage, and you eventually come back to this Canadian stallion born in 1961– I’m assuming that’s around or just before the idyllic age of your childhood that you’re talking about. Here’s his picture: http://www.hitechbloodstock.com/Norther%20Dancer1.jpg
What do you notice? A nice shoulder– and also weak pasterns, a thick throatlatch and a butt so high, it looks like it might be trying to pounce on his neck. History tells us he was also a mean, nasty son-of-a-bleep. He did win most of the races he entered– but he only raced 18 times. Yet he sired over 600 foals.
Now let’s look at Impressive. Born 1968, he was a gorgeous horse: http://www.foundationhorses.com/images/imp1.jpg Except, of course, that he was a massive horse on tiny, tiny feet, and he passed on the crippling genetic disease HYPP to his offspring, a fact that began to circulate even during his lifetime. He also never achieved ANYTHING as a stallion except Halter championships (he totally failed as a racehorse), and developed laminitis fairly early in his career. Yet he sired over 2,000 foals.
Okay, maybe we need to get more American, and more old-timey. After all, if there’s some mystical rustic knowledge about breeding horses, wouldn’t the coboys have possessed it? They depended upon horses! Try this: using Google images, check out pictures of cowboys and their horses from the 1800s and early 1900s. How many are Fugly? How many are decent? Answer: most of them are fugly.
Example: http://www.stanford.edu/group/west/exploringthewest/images/black-cowboy.jpg
Example: http://prints.encore-editions.com/500/0/cowboy-looking-for-a-job.jpg
Example: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TU0jJaJviQM/Tb3coPS5OlI/AAAAAAAAB7M/O4KcYtGziRs/s1600/Cowboy_on_horse_in_Field_BC-1904.jpg
Horses from “the good old days” weren’t somehow magically bred to a higher standard because people had some kind of old-timey rustic horse-breeding wisdom. In fact, they were just as badly bred or worse. You merely have to look at racing records to see this truth: nearly every standing track record, on turf or dirt, was set in the 80s, 90s or 2000s. Here’s the statistics: http://www.horsehats.com/horse-racing-records.html#Dirt
People originally bred horses for the same reasons you yourself gave, Mugly: they were tough enough to stand up to a whole lot of hard work and abuse, they were gentle enough not to fight about it, and they survived with minimal foot care. Or people just plain bred anything that they had, because they didn’t have the time, money, facilities or intent to actually breed for certain characteristics. Later on, as in the case with Northern Dancer and Impressive, people bred whatever was stubborn enough to be fastest, or pretty enough to win ribbons, not necessarily horses who had great genes.
These are not GOOD reasons to breed. The “good old days” were NOT very good for horses.
Today’s breeders might not always be great– but at least today science has helped us understand what conformation is all about. The truth of that is borne out in newly-broken records and longer-living sound horses every year.
Okay, your comments on Northern Dancer make me seriously question YOUR ability to judge conformation. Those aren’t weak pasterns… clue time, horses are meant to have sloping pasterns of a normal length, and they aren’t weak at all, they act as shock absorbers and prevent lameness. A thick throatlatch may not be be pretty to the “sweat um til they fall over from dehydration” crowd, but people who use their horses rather than parading them around in halters aren’t obsessed with thin necks. And he’s on a friggin HILL! In other pictures you can see that he’s not butt high.
Since when are there longer-living sound horses every year? I grew up with horses in the 70′s and 80′s, and at that time, horses that went lame before their tenth year didn’t even EXIST outside of racing. The barn where I learned to ride was full of seniors in their 30′s and some in their 40′s, still sound, still being ridden, not even eating beet pulp or senior food because no one knew about those things. Just healthy happy 40-year-old pasture kept packers. Today there are barns where it’s rare to have any horses past the age of 3 that aren’t getting hock injections, and they ALL need corrective shoeing or their dainty little feet fall apart. As for newly broken records… you think maybe feeding and lasix for all and newly improved surfaces MAYBE has a little to do with that? Not to mention the vast number of racehorses who break down, so often that instead of a horror that enters legend, it’s an everyday occurrence now to have to remove a dead animal from the track?
And what on earth do 1800′s pictures of cayuses have to do with this discussion?
HHHmmmmm…….I do not see what you do on the palomino. I do not see steep pasterns at all. I do see a horse that was not squared up for the picture which caused her hind right to be back too far and her hind left to be too far foward, I do not see this as a sure sign she is post hocked. If you cant tell she has a good shoulder behind that mane, you need glasses. You can surely see the point of her shoulder and her withers to be able to draw a line. As for being downhill, I would have to assume her shorter than average tail may be an indication she is a younger filly and still growing.
Now please educate me on why I am wrong.
And what if she’s a bit downhill? She’s surely not bred for dressage where she needs upright carriage. Let’s face it, a lot of QH’s and TB’s are rump high. Perhaps that’s where the speed burst and strength come from. My Paint mare is quite rump high and has a super smooth jog and trot and canters like she’s floating.
I agree- I think the Palomino is about two years old and still has some growing to do. I also don’t think she’s camped out, it’s just the way she’s positioned. I think she’s nice.
AND – I think the blue roan is a yearling, and whoever took the picture has him standing way under himself – a trick used to make their rumps look bigger (making the butt high problem look even worse). He’s butt high as heck in the photo and they did a poor job of trying to disguise it, but by the time he’s mature, I don’t think he’ll end up nearly as bad as he looks right now.
Actually, that would be a FAIL on you, Greenjourney.
Science as far as conformation is concerned is almost limited to Deb Bennett. If you can find a modern day AQHA judge who can figure out what a downhill horse is, let alone avoid breeding for it, do let me know.
Racehorse ‘records’ is a fail– they have already proven that the horses are no faster now than they were 40 or 50 years ago– the only thing that has changed is the surface they run on. In fact, books on horse physiology suggest that possibly horses have hit their top speed, based upon the laws of physics.
Picking out Northern Dancer and Impressive does not actually pick out the ‘old’ bloodlines. What it does is pick out the ‘new bloodlines’ as determined by the ability to advertise, ship horses long distances, and therefore promote a select few as premiere stud prospects. They are an example of the problem with ‘new’ breeding.
Backyard breeder has become an insult used by anyone who fancies that only a big breeder can produce quality. I’ve known a few people who literally stood stallions in their ‘backyard’, and several of those people had seriously top notch stallions. They just didn’t spend thousands of dollars promoting their stallion– yet word got around, and they easily bred some very nice mares, who produced very nice babies. No Congress champions, true. No bigtime race winners, unless you consider that coming home from the local barrel races with $500 a weekend all summer is big money. Best of all, no crooked ugly legs, grossly downhill backs, and no pansies that had to be hand held their whole lives.
And that type of breeding?
That’s a WIN.
Good god, thank you Charm!! You said everything I wanted to, in far more concise fashion.
I will add this about Northern Dancer – I’ve never read anywhere or heard from any source that he was mean. I’ve heard he was hot, but I’ve never heard he was mean.
I don’t know much about conformation….in fact, I have so much to learn about horses and riding in general. I appreciate reading and learning from all of you who do know so much. I enjoyed looked at Greenjourney’s old pics because they have so much character. The third pic in the examples (blogspot cowboy-on-horse-in-field) really fascinates me. The horse may be a bit fugly, but I bet he was a solid little mountain horse who took that cowboy over uncharted areas and back again without a care or a hitch. I am interested in the rider too. He looks like he is either standing in the stirrups or just has them waaayyyy long. I cannot see a cantle on that saddle either. I am always working on my balance and I would hate to ride in that saddle for very long. I would probably keep sliding backwards until I slid right off that little pony’s behind! Very intriguing photos and discussion.
It’s interesting you would comment on the seat and saddle in that photograph. Just today I was reading a book on the Texas-to-Kansas longhorn drives of the mid-1800s, and there were lots of photographs. In every single one the riders had those very long stirrups–riding with their legs straight down. It’s a posture designed for endless hours in the saddle and maximum stability. It’s interesting that a lot of Aussie saddles, with those big thigh ridges or whatever they’re called in front, put the leg into a similar position.
Those old saddles weren’t designed for comfort. They were designed to keep the rider on the horse through just about anything, and generally were short and very high and straight both front and back. The idea of riding a Western saddle with a bent knee is a relatively new invention. These days I even see people posting in Western saddles–an idea so deeply against tradition that you just have to laugh.
Here’s the book, by the way–an interesting read.
http://www.amazon.com/Cowboys-Longhorns-Portrait-Long-Drive/dp/0375815651/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319509592&sr=1-1#_
–Trurl
Yes, your reference to impressive is weak at best. He was more thoroughbred than Quarter Horse and breeding that went beyond line breeding IMO.
Thank you! I’m not defending breeding hypp positive horses or anything but to all the Impressive bashers …… Did you know his sire was a Tb?? and his dam was out of an appendix mare? So not only was he born an appendix, he was over half Tb. Just because he didn’t win at the track doesn’t mean he wasn’t athletic. How many successful eventers, jumpers, barrel racers, etc are “off the track” but just weren’t the fastest thing on the track? The fact he could run and was fast enough for anyone to attempt a race career with him shows he wasn’t a movement impaired halter horse like most today.
Btw, some of the racing QH stallions have some of the nicest combination of bulk and correct conformation I have seen. If anyone gets a chance, look at a stallion edition of speedhorse (not the quarter horse journal!) Granted there are fuglies everywhere, but I have found there is a decent % of nicely conformed stallions that look like they have the bulk to halter but are athletes with angles!
I was glad to finally see another post. I read this and kept wondering if anything was going to actually happen in it. Nope. I think I see what you were doing with this but could be wrong.
Anyways, I do favor foundation horses of any breed. I bred foundation Morgans when I was breeding. But I also saw way too much breeding by papers instead of the traits of the horses involved. People would get too wrapped up in keeping a “clean” pedigree and forget to really scope out the horses. I also saw too much dissing of all families other then the ones a person was breeding themselves. Of course, I’ve also seen breeding for color and/or breeding for certain show ring traits done poorly too.
It is very possible for humans to mess up horse breeding no matter what they preach or adhere to.
Well, I had a long interruption here & forgot what else I was going to say. Must not have been important!
Oh man…..
Humans are so very very very stuck on pedigrees. We are very silly that way.
Now, I understand about breeds. I really do. But wouldn’t it be nicer if horses – and other animals – were valued based on PURPOSE and/or TYPE, instead? Like they’ve been in certain times & places here and there, off and on, for thousands of years?
I think certain European warmblood registries have the right idea: you’ve got your breed, yes, but your animals aren’t registered as breeding stock unless they’re QUALIFIED and TESTED, and certain horses from other breeds – but of certain suitable type – are also certified as breeding stock, which really freshens up bloodlines and enhances athleticism, instead of allowing a whole bunch of genetic weaknesses get through a closed stud book, simply because an animal is “registered.”
I mean, all “breeds” stem from “types” anyway. It’s useful to know a horse’s heritage for sure, but we can’t see the forest for the trees.
FOUNDATION TENNESSEE WALKERS.. there are a couple of lines out there that claim the name “Foundation”, but there are more ‘foundation’ gaited stock around than just the McCurdy horses, or other well-known foundation lines.
A “foundation” TN walker would be one bred for good, solid, square four-beat intermediate gaits, NOT PACING. The desired temperament for the old time TWH’s was easy-going tractability, big motor when called upon, and stamina and sure-footedness.
Okay.. so a lot of ‘em have/had rather large roman-nosed somewhat clunky heads.. and big feet… but looks aren’t everything! (many of us actually LIKE that look!)
Today’s TWH often brings the ‘bragging rights’ of a pedigree FULL of World Grand Champions.. you know, the much-decorated flamboyant horses on high heels that win big in Shelbyville. Direct sons and daughters of some of these world famous specimens are not likely to be smooth-walking easy going horses… they pace without being ridden contained and ventroflexed, and they need shoes or ‘special trims’ on their feet. The mentality promoted by TWHBEA and Shelbyville’s fancy ribbon-bedecked ‘famous’ WGC studs, whose mares spit out ‘direct sons’ and ‘direct daughters’ by the hundreds or thousands every year. A lot of those babies pace like the dickens and have ‘delicate’ temperaments (A nice way of saying ‘crazy’) and many trainers and riders promote a walking horse that takes off gaiting hard, snorting and sweating and does not stop till the end of the ride a few hours later.
ick.
Find a horse with a lot of say, Spotted Alan Again… or any number of sound, sane, NICELY gaited horses’ names on the pedigree and you’re going to have a NICE horse. My gelding: lots of ‘foundation’ type horses on the top side, out of a mare that was shown with marginal success with a pedigree full of Midnight Sun… I got lucky. If I ride well on any given day, he gaits just fine in a sidepull, barefooted with what some folks sneer at as a ‘quarter horse trim’ on his feet. He doesn’t tear up the trails… but he gets where we need to go, safe and smooth.. and when I ask him he’s got the ‘juice’ too. Mare has a lot of Pusher and Ebony Masterpiece in her lines.. much flightier and quick to react to stuff which I’ve been told often ‘goes with’ that kind of breeding. Fortunately, her sire is a not-so-well known horse named Magic’s Golden Flash.
So.. I’m kinda proud to have two horses with pedigrees not saturated with high-dollar studs or World Grand Champions…. because I know the value of the priorities that made the breed in the first place.. priorities which are all but lost.. thanks to the priorities and practices of TWHBEA.
Being new to Walking Horses, I read your posts rather avidly, so that I can learn more. I evidently was lucky with our first Walker– She is double Pusher bred, top and bottom, and yet gaits like an absolute pro, has a lovely canter on her too, and is, with one exception, the absolutely BEST minded horse I’ve ever owned. I can trust her with literally anyone on her back, yet if we want to ‘get it’ she is always willing to do that when directly asked. I bought her on the recommendation of her owner who felt she didn’t gait the greatest– switching her into a Crestridge saddle completely changed her gait instantly, and she’s been wonderful every since.
It was only recently that I’ve started hearing and learning about Heritage Walking Horses, and finding out that one of the reasons modern Walking Horses have so many problems is due to the heavy stacks they put on them to change the gait– big breeders actually have to breed a pacey horse in order to get a running walk type gait when they weight and sore their horses. Although I will NEVER get rid of our Pusher mare, as I look around for other potential trail mounts I am becoming picky, and looking for something with a more traditional build and breeding.
Interesting post, although I have to admit that I like Midnight Sun horses (don’t know if you can even find a TWH without Midnight Sun on its papers–whether (pre-bloodtyping and genetic testing) he really is genetically there or not), I own three Ebony Masterpiece TWHs that have awesome minds, and I’ve always admired the long-striding gait of a nice Pusher horse. I hadn’t heard they were difficult. I’ll admit I used to watch one in the show ring whose gait was fantastic, but he was constantly throwing his rider–I’d have thrown that rider, too. And then possibly stomped on him. Both for being cruel and an idiot in the saddle.
I do agree 100% that big lick and park and probably even plantation horse breeders today breed them to be pacey–drives me nuts. On the plus side, you can usually get a truly fantastic pleasure horse with a gorgeous gait for very little money if you develop an eye for young horses that don’t “make” as a padded horse. I’ve done it a few times. Wish I could get to Tennessee more often and bring ‘em back west with me.
I had never personally met a TWH who wasn’t a sweetheart until recently, when I rescued one who is very much “show bred” with a lovely gait–who unfortunately spent the past year of his life (from 3-4 years old) in a stall never, and I mean literally never, getting out. I figure his neurosis has little to nothing to do with his natural personality and a whole lot to do with, well… standing in a stall for a year and never getting out. I’m excited to get him going–he’s a fancy little guy.
There does seem to be a trend toward the refinement of a saddlebred in the modern TWH show horse, too. My new guy has it. My 10 year old palomino, on the other hand, is HUGE, and smooth, and could carry you around all day long. Oh, and he has a giant, but gloriously beautiful, head.
I leased a TWH for a year – he had the great, big blocky head you see on the ‘old style’ or ‘foundation’ walkers. Total sweetheart and he would follow people around like a dog.
I too read your reply with much interest as our Pride Genius TWH is aging and I will be in the market for a new one some day soon. He is so awesome, I can not begin to tell you. Having seen many walkers in 10 years with most being pacey, I have such fear in looking. Is there a good source for foundation TWH’s to go to for information?
I prefer the “old classic” Arabian look. Skowronek, Mesaoud, balanced shoulder to hip, muscles, dense bone, good hooves, and beautiful. But they would not place well in today’s shows. Humans are bigger than 100 years ago, and 15 hands is not tall enough for a breeding Arabian. And can you make them look like TBs? Oh, and if showing halter, they need to look good in Vaseline and eye make up, with a pronounced dish and exaggerated features, so they resemble some sort of alien species, the snake-horse. Ugh.
It’s basic stuff. If you focus your breeding on color/speed/extreme type/flavor of the month, other desirable characteristics hit the skids. Some of us value a solid, decent, HEALTHY horse, bred for common usage, to exhibit common sense. A hundred years ago, horses were mostly bred to be used. Now they are bred for tiny little performance niches, so it is no wonder some of us feel nostalgic looking at the old pictures, reading about their versatility.
And Green Journey, sure those great speed records were set recently. Ruffian, Barbaro, and others, surely bred for speed, broke down on the track. Are those stats worse, along with the speed records? How about drug usage, that gone up much since 1980, as your records were set? If horses are faster and breaking down more, does that indicate good breeding selection? Only to those who care about speed to the exclusion of all else.
Visit Arabian Sport Horse Nationals and I think you’ll see that not all breeders have gone to the dark side. As a matter of fact, you’ll see a bunch of amazing Arabs that have good bone, feet, and dispositions. And no goop on the face! And are able to perform! No alien species there….
And what is the term for the overly concave face so popular on Arabs these days? Folks, there is a limit. They’re starting to look like gooped up alligators. I used to think Arabs had the most classic heads of any breed, not so much anymore.
Northern Dancer retired sound! The majority of racing TB’s in the US are bred to grow fast, run young, and have lots of babies. Of course, the majority don’t win the trippe crown, or even stakes races. Their carreers are truncated and a lot of them don’t survive it.
Contrast with the UK were TB’s keep on going. They race on steeplechase tracks, 30 jumps, 5 feet high, 4 miles long. This is the true nature of the TB — speed, plus endurance, plus a big jump and intelligence to boot. British and Irish TB’s make wonderful hunters, terrific show jumpers and world class eventers. That’s what they were orginally bred for. They also make excellent dressage mounts.
My fancy horse is so Smart Chic Olena she is just about her own sister.
Why is it that you always seem to throw in a funny line right about the time I’m taking a drink? I’m really tired of snorting liquids out of my nose. Please stop.
…….. Great. Now I want a foundation arab (or whatever those thicker-boned ones are called.) I didn’t know they still bred them like that – I thought you only had a choice between stupidly-expensive Shagya and spidery-looking. I don’t have any problems with the idea of a dainty little Arabian….. right up until I stand on the scale and realize that it’s probably bad manners to snap a horse in two.
Look for Polish and Crabbet lines if you want a heavier, stockier Arabian.
Some nice Polish blood in this girl’s pedigree, and hey, look, she’s doing dressage: http://www.analizaarabians.com/Lika%20Carnation.htm
And the Crabbet on this page could be mistaken for a Warmblood: http://www.horsetraining.org/horse-training-articles/2007/09/training-arabian-horses.html
Crabbets tend to be the largest Arabians and are mostly chestnut, often with a lot of chrome, simply because that was apparently Lady Crabbet’s favorite color.
Beautiful – thanks!
You absolutely got that one right. My Polics/Crabbett Arab is 15 hands, and as sturdy as they come with great bone and lots of chrome too (he’s a Khemosabi grandson). 29 years old in the spring, and still doing trails.
I would agree, too, that “types” of Arabians have existed for a long time, to the point where “foundation” is probably not a good word for any particular Arab. The Egyptians, for example, have been lighter, smaller and shorter-backed than other types of Arabs for a very long time.
But with regard to QHs, Mugly’s point has more validity. I have watched with great distress as more and more Thoroughbred blood has been added to some QH lines, to the point where these “appendix” animals are hardly recognizable as QHs–and then some go the other way with the development of the hideous bulldog-tiny-feet halter QH. These days the sight of a neat, quick foundation QH is a sight for sore eyes. I feel the same way about Morgans, who in some areas have had so much Saddlebred added. Morgans are wonderful horses on their own; there’s no need to try to make them look and act like Saddlebreds.
–Trurl
♦Not to quibble (and I love my 28 year old CMK gelding who is 15’2 1200 lbs and very Arab-looking thanks to his one Polish line to Witez II ), but in the US, until the import of Serafix and his full brother Silver Drift in the mid 50′s (whose influence would not be widely seen until the sixties) and Aulrab (a CMK stallion descended from Gulastra, one of the Crabbet’s “big type” arabs), CMK arabs were small, stout, big-hearted, pretty-headed — cow hocked (you knew there was going to be some bad things right?) versatile family horses. If you grab an average CMK horse today, that’s still what you are going to see — including the small but stout. Outcrossing to the Polish lines or breeding to Aulrab lines is what brings in the size without losing that temperament. (Sadly, because next to Bay Abi, Serafix is my favorite CMK stallion — his get tended to be hotter tempered and not terrific family horses).
The stereotypes (that have numerous exceptions) are these: Egyptian Arabians are the most beautiful, tend to be small and high-strung, and not the best athletes. (I have one who matches this description and also a 16+ hand, very athletic puppy-dog personality Blue-List Egyptian Arab)
Polish Arabians are larger, good-moving terrific athletes with correspondingly hot temperament, but are not as pretty especially in the shape of the head, CMK Arabs are small stout pretty-headed and have the best temperament and the best feet.
Spanish and Russian bred Arabs are some combination of the previous three — with the caveat that some of the best known stallions were known carriers of CA and SCID so if you are breeding, you need to do the tests.
But modern Arabs are very nice horses too. Yes, we have the airy fairy types — Magnum Psyche, Echo Magnifficoo, Jullyen El Jamaal, Gazal Al Shaqab (though the latter two have good legs, I’d take ‘em up into the mountains). But we have the big stout types too — look at the (Bay Shah) Fame VF lines. Versace son KM Bugatti (he has bone to spare) is a National Champion in both halter and performance — in the same year as a very young horse. Versatile is his middle name. Showkayce produces horses that win in halter and performance. I was impressed all to heck by Audacious PS now standing at Varian Arabians — he has it all: good bone, good size, lovely movement and lovelier temperament.
“Foundation” doesn’t really mean very much in the Arab world. Because all Arabs are foundation bred, it’s what the various breeding programs have done with them that makes the difference. And you are better off looking at an individual horse than its bloodlines if you want a personal riding horse.
I completely agree with what you said about Morgans. I show Morgans and have always been around the saying, “If you want a Saddlebred, go buy a Saddlebred”. I see far too many popular show horses with Saddlebred heads; a Morgan has a very distinctive head and certainly not a Saddlebred head! I want my Morgans to LOOK like Morgans, they can be bigger and more refined than your old type Morgans, but there should be no mistaking that what you are looking at is a Morgan! We had our World Championship earlier this month and the number one comment made about the horse CBMF Restless was, “Wow! Now that’s a Morgan!”. He’s big and pretty with a big trot and completely Morgan.
The trainer I work for a huge advocate for our Championships only have Morgan people do the in hand judging. There are plenty of Saddlebred folks with their Morgan card and inevitably they may end up going for less Morgan type in favor of Saddlebred type. The Saddlebred is their breed of choice, so it would be reasonable to assume their opinion (which is what you are paying for) is going to lean more towards that even if they do try their best to stay within Morgan type and conformation. Our World Champion stallion is most likely going to service many extra mares post-world title and it’s always a shame when that horse doesn’t have the Morgan type that a horse who didn’t place as well has. I’m glad to say that this year, our World Champion mare and Stallion both screamed Morgan.
I love the polish lines. A friends stallion OKW Entrigue (Ricky):
http://www.oakwerth.com/okw_entrigue.asp
Firstly, let me just say that I love stock breeds – they are my breed of choice.
However, in my area at least, nobody really put much thought into breeding them. The check list was basically -
Good mind: CHECK!
That’s why so many people where I grew up love stock breeds. They are known for their temperaments. It would appear that not many people realize that soundness is not always about “luck of the draw” – sometimes it is the breeders fault.
Example: I have a 3 year old QHx gelding, he is very calm overall. I enjoy riding him – he is exceedingly comfortable and relatively responsive. Like most horses, he has good and bad points in his conformation. He is coon-footed, he is downhill, he is very post legged and he appears to have knock knees (although according to his masseuse they actually aren’t “knock knees”). Apparently his breeder didn’t/doesn’t understand the importance of legs in a horse. My gelding already has stifle issues, so he has to be kept super fit for the rest of his life in order to stay sound and the masseuse also told me to watch out for bone splints in his front legs – but hey, he’s calm!
That being said, there are a lot of good breeders out there that do understand the importance of conformation – my idea of a good QH is a horse that has a great temperament, will stay sound, can be ridden barefoot in the bush, work a cow and will tolerate kids.
I love that QH’s are a very versatile breed, I think it would be great if more breeders would combine good conformation with good temperament.
http://www.operationhorserescue.blogspot.com
I am really enjoying this discussion: Sorry, but almost all QHs look downhill to me, and I was raised among them!
Please tell me that photo of the roan on the rocks is mislabelled…the other Morgan pictures are nice examples of the breed but that one-good lord.
The Arab wing of the museum at the KY horse park is very eye-opening as far as the foundation and breeding that created the modern Arab. Please note that illustrations of the “horse of the desert” even back in the 1700s emphasized the beauty of the neck and head and fine overall body. Similarly, Leslies Illustrated Weekly showed early Morgans in their artwork that had the upright neck, chiselled head and laid back shoulder. Rienzi’s pictures w/Sherman showed what people thought a fiery general’s Morgan should look at. The reality was undoubtedly something a bit less.
(Sorry, I am kinda bad at computers so do not have links to examples of the above).
I particularly liked the links to the pictures of the cowboy horses-anyone who has seen a Frederic Remington sketch of cowboys or cavalrymen with their horses will recognize the ewe necks, rafter rear and hammer heads. My gosh, were they all really that bad? If so, then modern breeding (for all its faults) has rendered a miracle in making the average “horse-out-standing-in-the-pasture” into a paragon of equine beauty. We pick, pick, pick at modern horses (and Morgan people are some of the worst) but compared with Remington’s cowponies, they are pretty darn good. I suspect a lot of the horses back then were turned out on poor pasture as colts and were exceptionally wormy (although that would not be true for the remuda horse of the time, who was kept on open range). Maybe they were tough as nails, but how much stamina can you get from a horse who looks half-starved? One telling fact: if raiding Indians tried to escape pursueing cavalry just using the pony they were on, they could be run down consistently. The war parties used extra ponies so they could switch off. The remuda system, I suspect, switched horses off as well, simply because the work was so hard that the wormy, underfed creatures could not be used w/out some relief.
I will concur with the comments about feet and legs no longer being a major consideration. You can get away with poor feet now because of technology. However, the breakdowns may be more a function of what we ask our horses to do: hours of 20 meter circles, 4 foot jumps, 15 minutes of hard work and then stuck in a stall until next week, slides and spins.
I agree 100%. The Roan “Morgan” does not look like a Morgan at all. Looks,by far, more QH than Morgan. Not the best example of a Morgan Foundation or not. yikes!
side note: Arabs were bred for smarts, stamina, speed, strength, loyalty, and beauty all rolled up into one. I we (Americans) have gone out of our way to screw that up in many repects. But that is just my opinion.
Did you know that the Morgan played a strong role in establishing the QH? A lot of the “ranch bred” or “working Western” Morgans could almost be mistaken for foundation-type QHs. Agree 100% that the roan “Morgan” looks like a QH and I do wonder if the photo was mislabeled, because roan Morgans may not exist anymore (see http://www.morgancolors.com/othercolors.htm for more info.) Some of the “colorful” genes in Morgans come from “ranch mares” who were bred to Morgan stallions. So there is some common ancestry.
My own Morgan, much to my embarrassment, is not terribly typey. She has a very fine build and is most often taken for part-Arab or part-Saddlebred. Her breeding is interesting; her dam was a stout mare of Brunk and WW lines, while her sire is more “modern” bred and his dam was a successful park harness horse and double grand-daughter of Kingston (can we say HOT?) I think she takes after that grand-dam, though she has a very good brain and is generally sensible. She’s done eventing (and is super-HOT and super-quick over fences) and dressage; I just do dressage with her as both of us have been injured and are not allowed to jump anymore.
Old timey Morgans: Not too tall, short-coupled, big butts and sturdy legs. Ideally with a cute head.
Foundation QH: Not too tall, short-coupled, big butts and sturdy legs. Ideally with a cute head.
Crabbett/Polish/Spanish etc. Arabs: Not too tall, short-coupled, big butts and sturdy legs. Ideally with a cute head.
Welsh cobs: Not too tall, short-coupled, big butts and sturdy legs. Ideally with a cute head.
Gaited breeds intended for all-day travel: Not too tall, short-coupled, big butts and sturdy legs. Ideally with a cute head.
Do we sense a trend amongst the horses bred for endurance, longevity, easy-keeping, etc.? This type of horse forms the building block of pre-mechanized agriculture, warfare and transportation, with some variations of course. Those sturdy legs might be long, or short, depending on what the horse is expected to do, and how strong or fast it’s meant to do it.
But there are certain absolutes of functional conformation that should NEVER be compromised, no matter how “pretty” it looks to us vanity-prone humans. I suggest a re-reading of the chapter about Fashion in Black Beauty.
OldMorgan: I enjoy your comments on this blog whenever I see them. I wonder if you were thinking about a breeding program that touts itself as being “clean-bred”. (I guess that makes the rest of us “dirty breeders”.)
People who perch in the mountains and breed among one Morgan family exclusively for generations until the horses are distinctive, uniform, predictable and (kinda) small, should not be surprised when people make jokes about West Virginia and inbreeding.
At least the Lippitts were a distinct type – short, stocky and hardy with a beautiful crest and intelligent head.
I wasn’t referring to Lippitts. The last horse photo is clearly a horse from Quietude Stud in WV. Very pretty morgans with a particular bloodline but at some point, I think you have to ask, “What is the point of continuous in and line breeding if you are not going to outcross to increase vigor? Any population isolated with in-breeding is going to have some problems eventually.”" I view the Morgan families like Lippitt and Criterion as a source for the rest of the breed to use for vigor, but at some point the variation is so great that a breeder won’t look at the family anymore. A case in point is the massive necks that many Lippitt studs display now. Why would a breeder want to bring that into his herd when he spent years trying to get a neck that would flex at the poll and allow for collection w/out cutting off the air? There are many good points about Lippitts but the Club needs to acknowledge that they have swung way too far. For example, I love Mint Jacob as an individual and cannot help but think he could do a wonderful job on some of the snaky necked, over-refined show lines. I doubt it will happen, though, because the breed is going in a direction of more height, more action and a more refined neck. When it goes too far, maybe breeders will come back to the above families to put some “type” back in their foals. The problem is, breeding is not like mixing paint. You may get a wonderful cross, or you can get a super-refined rear with a Lippitt neck and chest. The foal will probably tip forward on his nose!
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac163/blondemare/Horses%20Horses%20Horse/5133SealectOfWindCrestFrom7_84New.jpg
This is what I picture when I randomly think “Morgan”. I don’t know his lineage and I’m sure he has some government influence, but isn’t he cute? He’s 34 years old in this picture! I’ve always thought of Morgans as one of the most hardy, long lived breeds but you can hardly compare this ’50′s horse to what’s being bred today. Yup, his neck sure is cresty but I think he has the depth to support it. Or perhaps he falls on his nose when nobody is looking!
I started on Morgans / Saddlebreds and somehow ended up riding stock breeds. If I was ever to buy a Morgan, I want one with this neck. I just want to hop on him bareback and give him a big hug!
The Morgan horse pictured is certainly absolutely acceptable and would probably do well in the ring today, because overall he was such a beautiful horse. Sealect of Windcrest will always be one of my favorite Morgans.
Fortunately, not all the Lippitts have the huge necks. But it is a problem & has been a long time. In the late 90′s for awhile, I was horrified to see too many Lippitts w/long backs & wasp waists. That seems to have gone away. When I got into Morgans back in ’79, a lot of Lippitts had no rear end, which is one reason I got the Lippitt stallion I did; he had a good rear, more importantly, he passed it on. I think I am seeing more Lippitts these days w/good rears.
Back before the 1970′s or so, many Lippitts were bred to the show lines. But as the show horses became more extreme, that stopped. Pretty much now, there are full Lippitts or Morgans w/no Lippitt in them. Which is sad. Full Lippitts need to continue on carefully. And I really would like to see more part Lippitts out there.
And yes, that bottom photo was indeed our favorite WV farm. They still produce some good ones, but some who are not so good too.
I have not bred in ages and am now an observer. I keep up w/the Lippitts & the Rainbow Morgan Club, but not so much the general Morgan world now.
And what, pray tell, is “wrong” with that neck?
I think that horse is beautifully proportioned and ADORABLE. Just LOOK at that face. LOOK at it.
SOmething we tend to forget in these analyses is personality – a horse’s attitude makes up for a multitude of little conformational flaws.
Cattyplex–to whom are you referring? I was not talking about any specific photo on this blog but to horses w/necks that are too thick & heavy.
At least one of us is confused–and I know I am by your reply.
There used to be a saying (long ago, when Mr. Lippitt still was alive) that there was nothing better than a Good Lippitt and nothing worse than a Bad Lippitt. That is what happens when you in/line breed. If you are genetically lucky, you only get the best from both parents, if unlucky, you get a mess. If you are going to breed w/in a family, you have to ruthlessly cull, and most people are not ruthless enough, or have a bad case of stable blindness.
I tend to the more “Foundation” types than todays fine boned and more troubled horses. All of the horse pictured above are the “Types” I like (excpt a few are a bit long in the back). You can have a sturdy good riding animal with a bit more finer attributes with all of the strength and sensibility and finess entwined. The biggest thing I find with todays Over bred animals is that we are breeding more animals with more confromational faults, physiological faults and mental faults than there were of yesteryears. Morgans were tough sturdy, stamina, sensible, quick to learn animals that with good breeding sense could hold a bit of finess along with the above atributes with out being course or flat out right ugly in appearance. Many breeders are going over board and are breeding train wrecks in the long run. The Smart Chic Olena, Poco Bueno lines still held that foundation side but with some finess and finer attributes that not only made these animals nice to look at but talented and usefull. My late Tenn Walker was most definatly of the “foundation” type and I LOVED her for that but she aslo held a certain finess or style that showed grace, refinement and show worthy attibutes. Not all of the horses shown above, in my opinion, are that course in terms of utilitarian only animals. Some have that refinement and finess and style that is what I look for in an animal even show type. But then again I have horses that rarely have physical problems or severe conformational crap going on or the lack of brainage. I could actually ride/work these horses with out the fear of breaking them and then go and show them and still be in the ribbons. As far as arabs are concerned you have your types (regions) IE: Egyptian type that have been bred to such refinement that in some cases are down right ugly or deformed looking animals. I prefer the more older style with out so much concavity of the facial bones and the overly fine boned legs and feet. Polishbred havent realy changed that much over the decades. The Arabs shown above are more of your Polish types. Then throw in your Shagya types and etc you cant just group them all together and say that Arab is “foundation bred” because to many regional/types exsist. (there is no “foundation” arab because there is no founding fathers that developed that breed of originality. However man has gone out of the way to refine the animal half to death and get what the show ppl want but could not survive in the harshness in thier mother lands (would have a hard time). Thoroughbreds are being bredto death (along with many QH) to such refinement that thier legs or joints are not holding up to the demands of racing esp at such of a young age. Of all of the breeds I have delt with, the TB has, by far (over all group) the worst feet ever. I worked with TBs for nearly a decade esp broodmares and horses coming off the track and over half of them had feet problems. Now the older style more heavier type TBs did not seem to have all of the trouble with thier hooves than the more “modern” type do. THe 20 year old broodies had less hoof problems than the younger (4,5,6 yrs old etc) brood mares esp the mares that came off the track to become broodmares. Train wrecks! QHs are not that far behind in that respect. The older type did not seem to have such problems and when I was growing up you rarely heard of a good QH having navicular problems. I had a small QH (about 20 yrs ago) and she had some sturdy feet on her and they were large (but not out of balance or overly big that they stood out) that supported her frame and never had an ounce of problems with them. I was working with a 4 yr old QH about 5 years ago that had horrid feet, small and thin walled and constantly lame for one reason or another. She ended up with special theraputic shoes before she was 6 yrs old. I suspected early onset of navicular disease but it was never confirmed at that time. What the point is, I see more of these types of problems now days than I ever did just back a decade ago. I dont want a spindly legged, tiny hooved, hefty body massed, straight pasterned, physiologicaly screwed up animal that will not have a productive life and will not live with out misery of some sort and cant hold up to normal usage. I want an animal with some style but yet good amount of bone (8 inches or more measured just below the knee), not just in the legs but the entire body with a great foundation (hooves), balanced body mass, balanced conformation, physiologicaly sound as well as mentaly sound. Why have these horses gone to the way side? I think Humans just like to fuck up as much as they can for the hell of it.
There is one good trend I do see in the Tenn Walker………THier heads arent as boxy like as they used to be and the same goes with Standardbred horses….thier heads arent as large and course as they used to be. Something good can come with breeding for refinement or beauty just as long as the other good founding attributes arent lost with it.
I gotta tell you about the Walkers, though– I have three, and if I line them up from ‘boxiest’ to ‘typiest’, I end up also lining them up from ‘best mind’ to ‘most nuts’. I don’t know if it’s coincidence or if their head shape really does connect to their attitude. If that shoebox head is required in order to get a horse that is calm, gentle, loving, and intelligent, then I’ll bridle my Nike Air head every day with a smile on my face.
The leased TWH I mentioned in an earlier comment had that boxy head… There was another TWH at the barn that had been padded and competed in Big Lick and had a much more refined build overall, including his head. Both were nice enough horses, but my boxy-headed buddy was by far the nicer of the two temperament-wise.
I understand what your saying. My TW had the more traditional boxier shaped head and was the most pleasant animal ever to be around. I wanted to breed her to another triple registerd stallion (spotted/ homozygous) who was wonderfuly conformed and with plenty of bone but his head was more softer than my mare’s was. Still showed the foundation style of the TWH’s head characteristics but a little more rounder and “softer in the corners” if you will. He was very much sane and very even tempered. However I worked with a TWH gelding that was more foundation type and though big headed it wasnt boxy in nature. He was a royal PIG! However that came from an owner that alowed him to be so and he took evey inch that was given to him and more so. At one time he was a police horse for the mounted police patrol in WV so at one time he had manners and was obviously a good mount. When the mounted police patrol was disolved he was bought by a woman who let him get away with murder and essentialy made him the pig that he was. I beleive he was from the Pusher side of things and that line can be more fractious in temperment. However no excuse for his poor manners and over all behavior. I put 6 weeks into him because the owner was having a hard time getting him to gait. Well after much behavior issues where worked on he would gait well, but only if he was pissed off a little. (I wouldnt let him act like a jerk and that pissed him off) He was Satan on hooves if he wasnt alowed to go back to the barn when he wanted. I never dismounted him at the barn either. If I could have had him for about 6 months I say I could have goten him going well and got some of the very much extra poundage off of him then perhaps he wouldnt hate being worked so much. His temperment was more like “I will do fine if you know what your doing, otherwise its fair game for me.”
One TWH mare I worked with didnt realy look like a TWH but more Morganish or Hackney x Morgan like. Supposedly she was registered TWH though I never saw the papers. She racked but it wasnt very stylish and she had a small head with very wide set eyes and rather course unlike what i desire in a mare. (not realy desired in a gelding either). She was gooffier than ever (in temperment). Sure she could rack up a storm but was high headed (not much help via the rider either) and skitish. I nevered worked with her and her rider was not much in formal lessons either (to understand how to encourage the horse to drop her head down and in and engage the rearend) so the combination was not the best match. That poor horse constantly felt the nutcracker effect from bad, heavy hands and a Tom Thumb bit. So there could be a connection to the old style foundation type TWH with boxier heads and even temperments.
I kinda love the old style TW heads. Just like you wouldn’t want a Shire with an Arab head, I don’t want a TW with a TB head.
No I wouldnt want a TB head on a TWH either. That would look odd indeed. I just like a more softer or rounder “edge” to the “box” if you will. Like filing off the course edges. I tried to imagine a Shire with an Arab head and that was bizzare, lol.
I personally do not consider Smart Chic Olena to be a “foundation” Quarter Horse. Poco Bueno, Wimpy, King, absolutely and all of the first 5,000 AQHA registered horses who were deemed to be 100% from 1939 on. Smart Chic Olena is about 88% making him not eligible for foundation registry requirements of at least 90% Quarter Horse. Poco Bueno carried HERDA, and Zantanon lines passed GBED on.
Mugly doesn’t consider her Smart Chic Olena horse to be foundation, either.
That is correct.
I was not referring to you, but to the person whose post I replied to. I know you know better!
hmmmmm thats intresting. i have always heard that Smart Chic Olena and Poco Buenp were of foundation type (just more refined). But then again I am not that up and up on the specific pedigree liniage in the QH world. I lost alot of that when I switched to Walking horses.
Poco Bueno is, Smart Chic Olena is not.
That blue roaned (grulla??????) QH wouldnt be half bad if it wasn’t so camped under in the back.
That is not Grullo it is Black Roan but it is the “Hancock” type Black Roan. It looks and tests genetically different from Roan in other breeds…..
That is why I put Grulla in printhese and questioned marked. My internet connection muddies pictures up and sometimes the colour does not come out right. So It was hard to realy tell from the photo I can see. Black roan??/ Now i will say I never heard of Black roan (blue roan but not black). Regardless of colour the horse would still be better in regards to conformation if it wasnt standing so camped in in the rear. I am a conformation first (Temperment second or even with first, it all depends) and colour next to last type of person. (I dont breed for colour or get into the colour politics. I’m like that with vehicles, dont care what colour it is as long as its reliable, mechanicaly sound, and runs well, with what I need. And thats perfectly ok. Thats why we need ppl who are.
This is kind of related to this post, as it has to do with breeding programs – a friend of mine posted this link on Facebook: http://www.legacyfriesians.com/mystic.html
Yes, that’s right. It’s a spotted Friesian. An Appy-Friesian cross. I thought I’d throw the question into this round of knowledgable horse people: is there any reason to breed a horse like this except that “it looks cool”? Does anyone here think there’s a good reason to breed to him? What sort of person would? What sort of person would buy him?
I’ve read this blog off and on over the years, and as soon as I saw this, it made me think it was the kind of thing it’s has been very critical of over the years, so I’d be curious to know what people think. I mean, he’s pretty enough, and he’s obviously been trained – and clearly there is a market (though probably pretty small) for flashy horses for non-competitive exhibition riding – but is that enough?
I’ve been a fan of Mystic Warrior for years. Looking cool may not be everything, but it is something, and he’s also a beautifully put together horse who does his job very well and more than earns his keep. There’s no reason not to breed a quality horse to a quality horse. There are loads of low quality Friesian crosses out there, but this is not one. And a good-quality Friesian cross can be an outstanding horse – my mother drives a Friesian/Shire mare who is the best tempered horse I’ve ever met, a lovely driving horse, and not bad at dressage as well.
Who would buy him? Anyone who wanted a boatload of money, for starters, this guy’s famous!
Why wouldn’t it be enough? What objection do you have to him?
Huh. Well, that’s one way to get an appy with a better tail!
He appears to be a nice usable horse, so cudos to them. I’m not sure why anyone would want this particular cross other than spots + hair = OMGPRETTY, and you’re right that there’s not a lot of room to show a horse like this competitively, but I don’t see a problem with breeding one good foal if that’s what they wanted. They apparently did a good job of picking an appaloosa that complemented the friesian well, it looks like they’ve avoided the ‘bucket of spare parts’ problem that often results from crossing two really dissimilar breeds. So that puts them way ahead of most color breeders.
Now, if they were breeding every spotted mare they could find and pumping out spotted, hairy foals by the dozens, I’d have a problem with it. This one is apparently going on to stand at stud, which worries me a little. Please, people, be choosy about the mares you let your stallion breed to!
He’s a pretty boy, his legs are straight, he was well behaved when I saw him up in Wisconsin. I did wonder if he was free of the ‘grey’ gene. It would be a pity if he ended up losing his spots.
I’d still rather own a nice Wap Spotted baby.
Yeah, he has the greying gene, so he’ll be white soon. His dam passed it to him from the looks of it. She was App/Friesian, so he’s 3/4 Friesian.. didn’t save him from the gene. Won’t save his foals either, and I would be pleasantly surprised if his owner is being honest about that possibility to anyone lining up to breed. My honest opinion is that he’d make a fantastic gelding.
I’m with you on Wap Spotted foals. I like him. Also like Bearpaw Confetti and Butterwap Confetti http://www.confettifarms.com/offspring.htm Some nice looking horses. Not that I’m looking for anything right now.
Is there any reason to breed such a cross? Sure, for the same reason you cross any 2 breeds — to try to capture what you like of both. In this case, it looks like the cross was successful. Nice looking horse. I remember a nice Fresian/ Appy cross mare that was at the Ohio Equine Affaire several years. Very well put together and nice mover. Good sport horse prospect. The boroque style Fresians are draftier so crossing with a light breed can improve the prospect for some disciplines. Depends on what you’re after. Is there a big market? Well, the market itself is in the toilet but hopefully there will always be some market for horses who are healthy and well put together. Not sure how much of one; if I were a breeder of any breed right now, I’d be thinking very carefully before each breeding if there was a market for that particular foal. Would I breed TO him, if I was looking to breed? Probably not, unless I was breeding strictly for my own use and just happened to really like him. Doubt the horse could be registered, and with the economy as it is good registered horses are going for peanuts at times, so I don’t think I’d breed to him unless I already had a very good reputation for breeding a particular type of horse for a purpose, had clients waiting and knew his type would produce what I wanted (or at lease knew as much as you can; genetics aren’t as predictable as we’d like!).
As for the horses shown in the original post, I didn’t take time to look too closely at the conformation for most of them, but that blue roan was scary. Way upright in front and back, fairly post-legged. Weedy thru the hip/gaskin too tho young so that could change. But you couldn’t give me that one!
I’d take him for dressage like a shot. Friesians are a little heavy in front and are really built more for harness, so crossing in a stock horse with a bigger butt, if you select well and it comes out right, works well. He’s gorgeous, and not just because he has enough spots to share.
Was it actually a cross of two breeds (ie Friesan and Appaloosa) or a Friesan and an appy patterned horse?
I can see no problem with breeding an appy patterned animal of quality, it’s when they start calling it a new breed I start to climb quietly up the walls tearing the carpet (yes I have carpet on my walls, they are padded…..)
I believe his dam is half Fresian as well, so that makes him a 3/4. I don’t know if he qualifies for Appaloosa Sport Horse or not, but it’s a healthy registry whose horses sell for quite a bit of money.
He’s been posted here before on a post…possibly even by me, but I can’t remember which one. And he is lovely, even while being utilized for some sort of traditional Hispanic display… because Friesian crosses are so very Hispanic.
What bothers me about him is that they plan to stand him at stud, when he clearly possesses the greying gene. Notice how he’s loudly colored as a foal, with the obvious grey goggles of a horse with the greying gene, but now has a lot less color. Eventually, he will just be white. And probably half of his foals will have the gene too, because it’s dominant. That’ll be a disappointing discovery for people who pay that stud fee so they can have the color, only to watch it leech away.
My father in law has had Appaloosas (mostly Foundation lines) for some 35 years, and the greying gene is something he avoids like the plague. He’d never breed a horse so clearly showing signs of losing color like that. He doesn’t breed only for color, though of course he wants to have it as often as possible. But having beautiful color and then seeing it disappear is depressing for an Appaloosa lover.
Those foal pictures wer of him??? I thought those were his get. Wow definatly greying gene.
(I mean his first crop this year.)
Yeah, those are his pictures. He is a gorgeous horse, there’s no arguing that, and it’s totally not my intention to say that he’s not. He just will be white soon and I think it’s a little dishonest if they’re not passing the 50% chance of greying info on to mare owners when they open his book.
Personally, if I was going to look at a cross like that.. I’d look here. http://www.designsporthorse.com/default.asp
I disagree about the greying gene, I see no evidence of it.
Grey is a simple dominant, also, and neither the sire nor the dam are grey.
Many Near Leopards start life as dark as that. and many of them have goggles, this is a sign of varnish as well as grey, you know??
Yes, I do know, but it presents differently than grey. They are two different things in Appaloosas. I assure you, that horse has the gene, and so did his dam, and she inherited it from her dam (who appears to be fewspot, which can hide the presence of the gene). Look at pictures of Sequoia when she was younger, and pictures of her now. Horses with the greying gene tend to have goggles as foals, then lose color from the head first, then on back. The body and hindquarters are the last to lose color. Notice how he’s almost totally white on the head and neck now?
My Ara-Appaloosa filly that I sold a few years ago was a near leopard (The dam was a black Desperado V daughter that I sold to Colorado). Her legs were black almost to the belly, she had black circles around her eyes, a black muzzle, and varnish marks in the armpits and hollow of the hip. As she grew, her black varnish faded, the socks went down to the knees, and revealed spots that had been hidden in them… She has not now, and never will, lose her spots.
There is a large difference between the two. Appaloosas is the family breed.. I do know the difference. This horse will be white soon, as his dam already mostly is.. due to the fact that she passed the gene to him. http://www.rockypineacresminiaturehorses.com/Sequoia.html There she is pre-greying (top middle picture) and post-greying (pictures with foals), and she will continue to whiten, as will Mystic Warrior.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5259230 A few comments regarding Mystic Warrior’s greying gene found here.
It’s not a slur.. it’s just a fact that he has the gene, he inherited it from his dam, and will pass it to 50% of his offspring. The odds of getting color are pretty astronomical if you bred to him, since that’s a low percentage chance in the first place, and then to get to keep it, since you have 50% chance of losing it. I wouldn’t take that bet personally, but I can understand why people would. He is a lovely horse.
Ohhhh! Pretty! He’s a pretty cool-looking animal to me–I’d feed him at my barn!
I have to admit to being partial to good Friesian crosses. I saw an exceptionally nice QH-Friesian cross this weekend at an ACTHA trail ride–I was impressed. She was pretty, athletic, and smart. I’ve met other nicely bred Friesian crosses that are just fantastic. For some reason, they seem to cross well with other horses. I once rode the oddest cross I could think of–a 50% Friesian, 25% QH, 25% TWH cross. Can’t say he was particularly refined, but he was handsome and a nice mover–fun to ride. Good dressage horse. So–I think people cross Friesians 1) because they can, and 2) because a lot of times the cross turns out to be exceptional. I just remembered–one of the coolest, prettiest, nicest-moving horses I’ve ever seen was an Arab-Friesian cross. The resulting gray, almost white, horse didn’t look like either breed–definitely looked like some sort of fancy warmblood, but that horse had the wow-factor in abundance. Gorgeous! On the other hand, I know of a Friesian-Lusitano cross (a cross I usually really like) who just looks, and, sadly, moves, like a big, ploddy draft horse–and not a very attractive one, at that. Granted–I think her parentage was iffy. I saw a picture of the dam, and that was no purebred Friesian. She may have been a poor Friesian cross herself. I dunno. It wasn’t a purty outcome, that’s for sure.
My mom’s Friesian/Shire mare is oddly less drafty than you would expect. She’s tall, 17 something, and has lovely feather, but apart from that she’s like a very stout Warmblood, floaty gaits, nice clean head. Which works out because my mom is a very stout middle-aged lady who needs a big horse. Only thing wrong with this mare is she gets so fat in the summers that she can’t be turned out without a muzzle.
However much I love riding her, I wouldn’t recommend BREEDING such a cross, simply because my mom was able to buy this lovely mare for not very much money at all. The market for Friesian/whatever isn’t there anymore.
I don’t really have an opinion on Mystic Warrior. He’s a weird cross (to me), but he seems to have come out with all his parts in the right place and spots and hair to boot, so I can’t complain. Would I breed to him? Not without seeing him jump. If he can’t jump, I’m not interested, but I’m not everyone else on the planet either.
What jumped out at me, was the ringing endorsement for his sire, Quinn. The only things said about him were that he is Baroque type and has over 40 inches of mane, tail and feather. No mention that he can actually *do* anything, but just has a crapload of hair. If all that’s important is hair, why not just buy a Barbie horse?
Now that I like. Different but not wacky different. Good conformation, of course lots of bone, grace, and finess with out excessive bulk or heaviness. Large horse with nice balance and being of the Fresian blood, I say characteristicaly good tempered and bold. (not to mention the owners state such). If I had the money and the means I would be very much intrested. I swear I have seen Sequia some where and I beleive it was an Equine Expo in Columbus Ohio about 10 years ago. (dont know how old the mare is) I remember gazing upon a big spotted horse that looked alot like her. Could have been a different breed and such but I liked it none the less.
I’m totally interested in this blog, whomever is writing it! I think Mugly is doing a fine job, and bringing up some interesting commentary.
That being said, I don’t think any of us is in a position to judge the horses in this particular blog by just the pics. They all looked fine to me, and I’d bet that in person, they’re just as good (or bad) as you imagine.
I do deplore the bad-mouthing of Appaloosas. They’ve been bred far too often just for color. They are/were a breed in themselves. They had particular characteristics that showed up consistently. Hammer heads were not one of them. Rat tails were. I’ve seen draft/App croses; paint/App crosses; no-color/App crosses; pony/App crosses; jackass/App crosses and these have all given Apps a bad rap. They are also NOT quarter horses with spots.
And if you want “bulk” on an Arab, go Russian. If anyone ever saw the stud Tamerlane in person…well, you know what I mean. Would make one think (and many do) that Russian and Polish Arabs have some (oops) thorobred blood in them! After all, we’re taking the word of two previously communist countries that their animals are “pure!” And if a buyer is willing to spend thousands of dollars, even into the millions for some horses…well, gosh darn, they’re as pure as the driven snow!!!
I like the appy breed itself (not just the colour), the Nez Perce traditional type realy. Some arent so pretty in respect to colour but hey no good horse has a bad colour. I have no qualms over the appy breed and if it was within my specs of characterisitcs I desire then I say lets ride an appy!!
If the cross typically produces horses that look like that — I see no trouble with it. He’s a very nice horse, well-built and solid. And it looks as though they’ve put a lot of training on him — good for them! I’d take him out on the trails — because people would stop and stare! There is a place for pretty parade-type horses.
However, what percentage of breeding Appies and Fresians look like that? Is there a market for the rejects? What if he’d turned out a solid color? What if he had been plain brown, 14’2 with big feet and a big head (like a lot of backyard “warmblood” breeders seem to get when crossing drafts and lighter breeds)? A lot of Appies today are QH with spots. What happens if you got a 1600 lb draft horse on 00 QH feet?
The people that bred Mystic Warrior weren’t taking much of a chance — look at his dam, Sequoia. She is very solid — and the product of a Fresian mare bred to a 16 hand Appy stallion. So he’s really 3/4 Friesian. Whoever bred her, though, was taking a much bigger risk — breeding two different types together and they got at least one hit. Sequoia has Friesian type and extremely beautiful Appy coloring — best of both worlds. Dumb luck.
When you have an extreme cross (two completely different types of horses) the number of culls is pretty high. Also, the high demand for Friesians has somewhat reduced the quality of the stallions I’ve seen around — I’ve seen them cut-up like a grayhound or humpbacked like the whale and some really funky hips. People are breeding a lot of stallions that should be geldings. If you bred a fugly stallion to a fugly mare because you thought that if the results had spots you could make a lot of money . . . probably would not work very well.
I’d have been happy to breed Sequoia (that nice Appy who happens to be 1/2 Friesian) to a nice Friesian stallion. I would be worried breeding a very nice Appy to a very nice Friesian.
Oops. Mystic Warrior’s dam is the result of a cross of a 16 hand Appy mare with a Fresian stallion, not the other way around. It did seem odd to me because most people with Fresian mares — breed to Fresian stallions.
That’s it! Sequoia was the mare I saw at Equine Affaire for several years. Nice mare, nice mover, nice personality. The year I had my gelding in the Arab booth, her stall was in back of his and they kept reaching up to play lips over the wall. Granted, more of a stretch for him than her as he’s 15 hands and she was taller. Not surprised she produced a colt this nice; I really liked her (and her sire Thor too).
Good Lord. I remember thinking a Quarter Horse was the one you put a quarter in to make it go up and down (the one at the corner at the local grocery).
Did anyone read the front page New York Times article about horse slaughter today? It repeated what seem to me to be the regular old canards about slaughter:
** The same amount of horses are being slaughtered now as when slaughter was legal in the US (~140,000).
** Lack of local slaughter houses is the reason why the bottom has fallen out of the horse market.
** It’s expensive to euthanize a horse, so some people end up spending many times that amount *not* euthanizing their horses. [really, this one is the most difficult to follow for me]
** Slaughter is a cost effective way to get rid of unwanted and used horses, including show horses and race horses.
Link to the article here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/24/us/Horse-Slaughter-Stopped-in-United-States-Moves-Across-Borders.html?hpw=&pagewanted=all
This is the link to write the author, A.G. Sulzberger, who is incidentally one of the heirs to the NYT fortune:
http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/s/a_g_sulzberger/index.html
This nitwit doesn’t seem to realize that it can’t simultaneously be true that the same number of horses are slaughtered AND the market has fallen out because no one is slaughtering.
That article really ticked me off. Many factual problems with it – whether you’re pro or anti, the factual issues should tell you that it wasn’t a very well researched article. Read the comments – they’re pretty interesting as well, including a very interesting comment from “Former Mayor” of Kaufman Texas.
There’s gotta be a better way than slaughter….
Like candysgirl, I have a do-it-all arab. He isn’t really ‘typey’ but he did show successfully at halter. He is solid, sensible, willing and personality plus. Some years ago I took him to a trainer whose expertise was thoroughbreds (I wanted to try hunters) First thing that trainer said was ‘ That’s a nice looking horse.” I promptly rattled off his pedigree but the trainer shook his head. “I don’t know a thing about arabs,” he said “but a well put together horse is a well put together horse.”
That is so right on – it isn’t about breed or line or ‘foundation’. A well conformed horse is a well conformed horse – he will be athletic, capable and SOUND for the long term. Physics is not breed specific. Swan necks, ballerina feet, outlandish movement and other fashion does not promote soundness – and for Pete’s sake – isn’t that the goal?
My old guy is 35 now, his legs are clean, his back has dropped only slightly, he tracks right up straight out of his stall without a warmup (which he does get) and he is still happily under saddle – if I could figure out how to post a pic I would!
“he said “but a well put together horse is a well put together horse.”
That is so right on – it isn’t about breed or line or ‘foundation’. A well conformed horse is a well conformed horse – he will be athletic, capable and SOUND for the long term”
BINGO!! Best statemet I have heard in a while.
Exactly. There’s certain principles of proportion and balance that seem to hold true regardless of breed or intended purpose. ‘Type’ may win at breed shows, but the best horses really transcend breed, and are immediately recognizable to any educated horseperson. (I think that’s also the easiest way to tell when a breed standard is going off the rails – if people from outside that niche look at your grand champions and go ‘yuck!’, you’ve got a problem.)
I’ve had one woman ready to knock-down-drag-out with me because she just KNEW my mare was an appaloosa (despite her very not-appy conformation. She apparently assumed I’d bought the horse… somewhere… and had no idea that I was being led astray by some unscrupulous seller. Even when I told her I Knew the mare’s entire history and had her papers, she swore there was an appy in the woodpile, and very recently, too. Guess she’d never seen the sabino pattern before….
Others swear up and down she’s half arab. Nope.
Sorry to be off topic but I really need more votes.
I want to win so I can get my story out there in hope of encouranging others facing injuries that there is always hope
I went from Paralyzed to Barrel Racing in 3 years
While recovering from being paralyzed my horse has been my cheerleader and in his own way parent. He knew how bad I was hurt and always gave me looks of “Are you sure your allowed to do that?” wow was he good at that look while lightly touching my neck brace. The picture on the entry page is from our first Rodeo.
Help me win a featured article and photo shoot of my wonderful boy.
I also want to show others that you should never give up. anything is possible
http://yhyl.horseandrider.com/view/698
Lucky we had endurance riding to save the Arabian horse from it’s breeders.
just found out something. That picture of the Roan “Foundation Morgan” is infact a QH named Morans Doc Lance owned by Darrel and Susan Wiand of Blue Grass, Iowa. Mislabled.
oops…I’ll go see where I found her…
Whew! I feel better now. I thought the WWM (Western Working Morgan) people had finally gone way too far!
Off topic, but for those who are interested in the progress of Valerie and Sissy (the mares that were starved by the former Olympian Gwen Stockenbrand)
http://www.examiner.com/horses-in-san-francisco/how-are-valerie-sissy-doing-day-21-the-readers-want-to-know
!>!>!>JASON MEDUNA UP FOR PAROLE WEDNESDAY<!<!<
Those of you who were around in 2009 will not have forgotten the Jason Meduna/Three Strikes equine abuse case. Those who don’t can read the following:
http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/2009/04/i-believe-thats-more-than-three-strikes.html
http://fuglyblog.com/2009/04/21/he-wasnt-stolen-he-was-trying-to-find-food/
http://fuglyblog.com/2009/04/23/truth-is-stranger-than-even-the-internet-can-come-up-with/
http://fuglyblog.com/2009/04/23/facts/
http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/2009/04/round-up-completed.html
http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/2009/05/time-to-strike-him-out-for-good.html
http://fuglyblog.com/2010/01/13/three-strikes-ranch-update/
http://fuglyblog.com/2010/02/14/someone-call-the-weekly-world-news/
I hope that this is just a formality and that they are not seriously considering releasing him. If he serves the maximum 10 years, that would be less than 1 month for each horse he starved.
Part of his sentence is that he is not to own, possess, or reside with animals for 30 years after being released. I am particularly concerned that this part of the sentence be enforced for the full thirty years.
You can find information on how to e-mail or FAX your comments to the Nebraska parole board here:
http://our-compass.org/2011/10/21/breaking-news-convicted-nebraska-wild-mustang-murderer-up-for-parole-send-sample-letter-requesting-parole-be-denied/
If you use the sample letter, use just parts of it, not the whole thing. Keep your remarks polite, succinct, and to the point.
That guy needs to stay locked up. Locked up with no shelter…food…water…
I hope there is much press and public condemnation of this abuser’s possible release. The state of Nebraska is also where a wet behind the ears and ignorant freshman state senator, 24-year-old Tyson Larson who rides and trains horses, wants to revive horse slaughter as a way to “reduce the number of unwanted horses and boost the economy in Nebraska.” You can’t fix stupid, so I’d sure like to see the general public let Larson, Nebraska, and Big Ag know that we’re all here and paying attention.
I was not thinking of anyone in particular. Merely decades of listening to many breeders say stupid things. But you have a point. Of course, my stallion came from that program–way back in 1980 (he is 31 now) before the intense inbreeding started.
I want to go back and read the above comments, and will after I am done commenting. I totally agree with this article 100%. I recently bought a foundation quarter horse gelding after researching the lines and temperaments. After finding a horse that failed three other buyers for behavioral, training and just pure personalities problems, I found my next horse. He was meant to be, but not after having to put a lot of time into him from the respect, ground and saddle work.
I really like his personality, his temperament, his willingness and his overall ability. He is not a cow horse (tried), not a rodeo horse (tried ) not a performance horse (tried that as well) but what he is, is a great horse to just about any person who rides him. He’s not reactive, explosive, crazy, strong willed, or abusive to those who ride him. He’s not a dead head either. He is just a calm, cool-headed gentleman and it is because of this, I would recommend a horse like this to just about anyone who wants to get into horses and have a positive experience.
I love that I can put my 3 1/2 year old on him and pony him around and he goes just as great as the rider who’s sitting on a horse for the first time. I can then get on him and do flying lead changes, drag logs, push other horses/cattle off of him and he settles right into my style of riding.
I have only had him for a year, and in that year started him again (the right way), and as long as I am fair with him, he is a gentleman back. Does that mean I will have to find a horse who is capable to doing the other things that I’d like to do…Yes, but likely that horse won’t be as easy to get a long with (I know this, because I just sold one like it) but finding out what the horse likes is just as good for the horse as the owners.
Thanks for letting me post about my foundation horse experience. I give them a thumbs up from over here in Northern Idaho.
A picture for reference: http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t140/lailport/Horses/Chipspring_3.jpg
He’s cute. Sturdy, the way I like em.
That palomino filly (?) reminds me sooo much of a FQH I mistook for some kind of Iberian critter a few years ago.
He was under dressage tack, his neck was muscled in that classsical way, and he was a very nice, educated mover, so maybe you can forgive me.
I don’t understand the mania for supersized horses. I’m 5’2″ and my 15.3 gelding is TOO TALL and WIDE. But he’s a sweetheart with ringbone, so he’ll be a lifer.
Not like I have time to ride for hours on end every day anyhow….
WoW!!! I must have really missed the inflammatory, ugly, uninformed comments that Mugster (sorry, I won’t call you Mugly) is somehow being accused of or insinuated.
I read this post and took away from it this:
If you are into lineage and like the “old style” of a particular breed, choosing a foundation (no matter what the breed is) may be the best choice for you. But, more importantly choose a breed that suits the equestrian you are, no matter what the breed.
This is why my choice of horse is based on the individual horse and the job I have in mind for the horse. Its why the horse I ride is considered a “versatility” horse: he is content to ride on our ranch or will eagerly turn a barrel only to be a quiet trail mount the next morning. You can rope off him, shoot a gun, and three times he has been called out for search and rescue of missing children.
His breed you may ask—-speculate Oh he’s a foundation QH—no no, he must be a APHA —this could go on forever and everyone would be wrong.
He’s grade. Not an inkling of his breeding but hints to his lineage. Oh yeah, did I mention he’s sorrel with two hind mismatched markings: one sock and one 3/4 stocking and a thin blaze. His tail and mane are not flaxen—true sorrel.
I guess this horse has taught me much about what a horse should be and my frame of reference is different.
Mugster, I enjoyed your post and the message I personally took from it. I think it is solid advice for those delving into horses to look into themselves for what they want in a horse and make a choice based on their needs, not breed standards or what makes everyone else happy.
Cuz in the end, it’s your arse end in the saddle—not anyone else
Your friend the breed whore, really is in a rare place.
If I had no horses, knowing what I do today, and I was going to go buy a horse to ride- I would definitely buy something gaited- but which breed would be anyone’s guess. How fun!!!
I currently own 2 TWhs and love them to death- but if I were starting over, I’d probably be looking hard at a fox trotter, because a TWH’s regular walk has a ton of motion to it- a gaited horse that fox trots tends to have a smoother regular walk than a horse that does a running walk.
It would actually be a lot of fun to be able to buy a horse of any breed- when I got my newest horse, I stuck with a TWH because I already had a TWH and I wanted a horse that would keep pace well on trail with the horse I already had. My friends who ride fox trotters, struggle to keep up. I needed a horse that could rack or do a running walk.
Since both my TWHs are young (7 and 5) it will probably be many, many years before I’m on the market for a new horse…
Arabs are faring well in England, I think. Here’s a snippet from the Rule Book:
“THE ARAB HORSE SOCIETY RULES FOR SHOWING 2010 … A judge may disqualify a horse, who in their opinion is wearing excessive make-up and /or oils .”
Also, in England, is it true that JUDGES also ride the horses in some classes?
That’s pretty cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bfGnny0UPQ&feature=related
Interesting how things are done around the world.
There are so many types of arabians because of all the different tribes breeding for different qualities there is no original type of arabian because there were many. Also this is the first time I have heard of a foundation arabian. I saw some people listing the Crabbet arabian I guess that is the foundation breed for America and I also think that I see way too many weak boned spazzed out american arabians or they look almost exactly like saddlebreds.
As for foundation Morgans the whole breed was based on one stallion bred to any decent local mare. However I prefer foundation morgans in some cases because the whole reason it was started is because people were putting so much saddlebred that they were becoming useless for farm work and were no longer an all purpose horse.
Also in Appaloosa the complaint is that there is to much quarter horse that appaloosas are no longer the indian ponies of yore but pretty colored quarter horses. I agree with this and wonder why appaloosa breeders did not use Iberian horse breeds which the appaloosas in america are descended from anyways. Its probably because when they were salvaging the appaloosa breed they had no access to Iberian blood because it was in dire straights themselves. However there are some people trying to improve the breed by making the colonial iberian horse.