AQHA – National Promoters of Backyard Breeders
Sep 22 2011
I am a QH fan, they are the breed I ride by choice and had the most success with in my career.
I am also PO’d with the American Quarter Horse Association on so many levels I can’t fit them all in one post. So I’m guessing there will be quite a few before I’ve said it all.
By then of course I’m sure the AQHA will have come up with new ways to screw its members and horses around and give me much more to write about.
My first pet peeve is the standard approach of flooding the market with the progeny of whatever the latest big winner in the show pen is.
AQHA rates the success of their studs by the money earned by their offspring. The goal is for the elite to become million dollar sires and the ultra-elite to become five million dollars and up money earners.
This comes from the life time earnings of their sons and daughters, their own winnings are in a separate category and can be unimportant as long as those babies win big.
So what’s the fastest, easiest way to get those earnings up? Breed to any cow with an owner that has with the stud fee, and hope enough cream rises to the top to get some earning on your horse.
“Own son/daughter of,” is a western term that you will see used quite often in sales jargon. The phrase comes from the need to make sure the prospective buyer understands how famous the stud is. I have seen many advertisements for studs which read, “sired by an own son of So and So, a son of Who and Where, the Gazillion Dollar Sire.”
This is a way to avoid admitting we’re already at the third generation. To the unsuspecting mare owner, this sounds really important and special.It even sounds a little like the horse they picked for their mare’s baby-daddy might have won some money too. The idea of stallion owners wanting to draw in clients this ignorant gives you an idea of how it’s not about quality, but all about quantity.
If a horse has a famous, or big money earner, on the same page, (first page of the pedigree) it is usually considered worth breeding, even if it’s never done a thing. QH people line up to breed their horses to the get of a famous stallion, sometimes several generations back. The horse will still be advertised as a “Shining Spark,” or a “Smart Chic Olena,’ even if the relationship only begins with a cousin twice removed.
This 6-year-old Shining Spark Grandson is pretty headed, shiny and so butt high he will never be able to get under himself. He is about as upright and tiny-footed as a halter horse and a walking advertisement of what’s going wrong in this industry.
This flood-the-market approach is an example of backyard breeding at it’s finest, from a single horse owner to a ranch which produces 700 foals a year. A stud with a magic name in it’s pedigree will be bred over and over again, only because of a tenuous relationship to a current favorite in the show pen. It doesn’t need a show record or to even be sound, just color and a name.
I’m sure the breeder was thrilled to get the right color…there is nothing else. At least this weak loined, slab sided Shining Spark grandson is gelded.
With the advent of artificial insemination the situation got even worse. Now the desired blood line can be sent to any gunzel with an open mare, or three, or 100.
The arrival of Hollywood Dunnit and Shining Spark on the show scene brought with it not only a high level of performance, but also a bunch of reiner wannabes looking at the pretty color. Somehow, duns and palominos began to be equated with high performance. So now, not only did the breeding plan become, “anything with a hint of the desired bloodline,” but now, “it’s gotta have color,” as well.
Here we have a Shining Spark granddaughter. Of course she’s being marketed as broodmare prospect-with guaranteed color,nobody is supposed to notice she’s as butt fugly as a bulldog chewing gum.My guess is somebody won’t and she’ll be producing the next Shining Spark Lite.
Peptoboonsmal (Pepto) is a cutting horse of unequaled success. His offspring have earned over sixteen million dollars. He is also a cool roan color, so again, the name and the color have influenced the QH industry in every direction. He has relatives all over the cutting, cow horse, reining and versatility world. Now he has progeny even showing up in the pleasure horse arena. They’re also showing up in droves on the fair to crappy list.
Performance, conformation, heartiness, good temperament – these are the hard things, the right things, to breed for. So why do we go for color and a name? It doesn’t take careful selection of good proven stock. It takes a smattering of genetics and the desire for bragging rights. Meanwhile AQHA’s pockets grow fatter and my beloved breed weaker.
Once it goes to second generation the quality of many crosses plummets, by third the horses seem to meld into pile of “meh’s” if not fuglies. Of course they will still be considered breeding prospects because of the one drop of fancy blood left in them.
Top QH’s are usually bred responsibly for the first generation, but then it’s anybody’s game. Second generation studs will be bred to more mares than the original with a lot less requirements. Third generation will be bred randomly and without thought.
Normally I would pass on a goose-rumped, short crouped thing like this, and I haven’t even gotten to the upright shoulder and stick neck. But hey, she’s a Pepto granddaughter and a roan, so she’s got to be better than she looks, right?
I’ve been told the indiscriminate breeding should strengthen the lower levels, not weaken the upper. This theory should be how it works, but it can’t if there is no careful selection of mares, or a critical eye put on the stud, no matter what side of the economic and breeding track they come from. Once ability and conformation go out the door there is no room for improvement, but there seems to be an unending availability of QH registrations. It’s getting harder to find quality QH, not easier. You’d think with all the breeding going on we’d start to get it right wouldn’t you?
AAAAUGH! My eyes! My eyes!
162 comments to “AQHA – National Promoters of Backyard Breeders”
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Selection is everything. You have no breeding program without systematic selection criteria. It is also, sadly, for the most part a lost art. But hey-#s = registry income so it is profitable and expedient to turn a blind eye. It disgusts me, and I am a life member.
Just broke on ABC7 news in L.A. – 16 horse seized from a “rescue” in Murietta, in Orange County. Animal Services was watching the complaints and checking the horses for a YEAR, so the complaints that the rescuer didn’t have enough time to make a difference are out the window. Fortunately, the horses, who all appeared to my eye to be OTTBs, were not quite at the level of some rescues we’ve seen. A month of good groceries should help. So we’ll see.
Murrieta is over on this side of the mountains, in Riverside Co. Any idea who it was?
Makes you wish the stock horse breeds would go over to the inspection of each horse format that the Warmblood registries have – doesn’t it?
It’s not just AQHA either – happens with Paints and Appys as well, especially bad as you can legally outcross either of these breeds to QH and still have a papered Paint or Appy.
http://www.felixfjord.blogspot.com
I consider Paints QH’s. Always have, since they began as a place to go for stock horses with excess white. The appaloosa is different, but I can’t help but wonder if all American stock type horses are essentially a variation of the same theme.
I agree with you 100%! My hubby loves the paints (not a horseman) and mocks my little red QH and calls him plain. Whatever (rolls eyes). My paint filly goes back to either a QH or TB on every line within 5 generations… But she must be extra special because 5 generations back I found Go Man Go, and only 13 generations back I found Coys Bonanza – Twice!
BTW – she is extra special to me, but it has nothing to do with her breeding!
“BTW – she is extra special to me, but it has nothing to do with her breeding! ”
My Appy was the best damn pony on the planet… simply because she was mine and she did everything I asked her and she was good at it. She was probably some mutt of a horse, but it didn’t matter to me. I still loved her just the same.
Today’s show Appys are generally mostly QH. Whenever you see one with a cute little head, and lots of pretty hair you KNOW if you look at the pedigree they are going to be 3/4ths QH, with maybe some TB or Arabian thrown in for the more sporty ones. This is what mine was – she was super cute, with lots of hair, and lots of spots – and mostly had impressive-bred QH far back in the pedigree (thankfully, N/N).
Yes! It would give the Foundation lines that are an asset a way to stay current and get rid of so many of the QH conformation issues.
I am a big fan of inspections. That said, inspected “breeds” (and I am thinking WBs here so we are talking registries for type rather than closed studbook breeds) have their problems too.
I am not a fan of carte blanche AI. The indiscriminant use of ARTs (assisted reproductive technologies) generate a huge amount of income for veterinarians. They also lead to accelerated dissemination of inherited undesirable traits. While many would extoll the advantages of AI, it is a double edged sword. Exclusive use of live cover is the saving grace of the TB right now, and not even that can offset poor selective breeding practices over the longer term.
In the big picture, man has for the most part become a poor steward of the horse.
And maybe some of the genetic issues too, if we’re very, very lucky.
Not so quick with the foundation bred QHs. I have seen some that will make your head explode. Look at Dixie Beach and then look at her progeny. If she had never been bred, we would not have had Harlan who was quite the sire.
I agree and disagree. I agree that people should not breed indiscriminantly with no regard to all of the qualities you mentioned that are so very important. I disagree that horses with less than perfect conformation should not be bred at all. If that were true, we wouldn’t have very many choices left. I think you should breed stallion and mare that will compliment each other in the important areas. If temperament were truly a strict factor, then horses like Reminic would not exist. His dam Fillinic was about as crazy as they get. I know there are others, but in the interest of time I will leave it at that.
I did LOL when reading your post because I own an own son of SCO out of a daughter of Reminic and it is true that is what gets people’s attention. Funny thing is, I brag more about his dam than his sire. She was an outstanding performer and has produced some extremely nice performers herself from different stallions. There is only one full brother to my colt to date and I have no idea if there will be any more. She is 26 and so is SCO so I can imagine her egg harvesting days will end soon if they haven’t already.
I guess where I differ is that I will not breed to just any mare, and I did not buy him because I thought I would get rich selling a gazillion breedings. I have some mares I selected I will be breeding him to very calculated so that I will be able to produce my own riding stock until I am too old to enjoy it anymore. I have had some interest in others wanting to breed to him but like I said, I will be very selective on the mare. He is in training for Reining and will be in training for two years or longer initially, because I want him to get trained properly and shown.
I don’t blame the AQHA for what is going on. To me the heart of it is the human tendencies to want to best and the greed of the breeders and promoters of the NRHA, NCHA, and the NRCHA. A very close acquaintence of mine has some very high dollar horses who get bred to the top 10 every year but also to a “wild card.” Four years ago, the wild card horse was foaled and was the most outstanding that year. His sire’s discipline is not the discipline of his son. Go figure. What this means to me, and I know you have most likely seen it as well, is that you can breed the best to the best and get a dud. You can also breed average to average and get above average. This happened to me with a young gelding I have.
People should not indiscriminantly breed and they should take into account what their horse is conformed for and good at. What scares me about people railing on conformation flaws is that people will pass over a good horse because of that fact alone and gravitate toward something that looks better but may not be as good a horse. I showed you the picture of one of my mares (the Okapi) and her conformation qualities will be a good mix for my stallion. I plan to get at least one foal from that cross and depending on how it turns out, maybe more.
Unfortunately common sense can’t be legislated and there are a lot of people who don’t possess it.
“Makes you wish the stock horse breeds would go over to the inspection of each horse format that the Warmblood registries have – doesn’t it?”
NO!! NO NO NO NO!!!!
I only have that vehement a response for a single reason – the Warmblood inspections around here (WI) are a flipping joke. I have seen the Oldenburg NA group approve the same obese palomino stock horse mare with tiny feet, straight shoulder, upside down neck and goose butt that that Shining Spark granddaughter up there is going to grow into. I have seen them brand and approve foals whose hips are uneven, have mediocre to shitty gaits and nasty temperaments out of lame mares that were also approved. And the RPSI folks? I laugh my ass off whenever I see a commenter on this blog talk about how wonderful the Rheinland Pfalz-Saar is because around here I have NEVER seen a single branded RPSI horse with straight legs. Ever. The limb deformities have ranged from minor to severe but not a single one has ever arrived with even the most basic start to decent conformation. At least 2 of the three were geldings and not going to breed on, but one was a mare that had been approved for breeding – with a crooked leg that turned in from the elbow down.
An inspection is nowhere near a guarantee of quality unless the inspectors have what it takes to recognize and turn down sub-par horses. And since every inspector is a human, they are all just as susceptible to bribery, corruption and outright stupidity as the rest of us.
But is this an upstart American registry or a “real” registry with decades or centuries of reputation & tradition of excellence?
Human they may be, but I would take the European Oldenburg inspectors over a manufactured “we’ll take anything” joint.
But, my god, dahling, the politics! Not the European Oldenburg inspectors, but say VNIIK for example (which is the official body for Akhal Tekes).
T. Ryabova, who is basically the heart of the body, has some extreme idea of what a Teke should look like (hooded eyes, eagle neck, long back and all). As a result, there are many extreme individuals favoured at the expense of some fantastic, well-balanced using horses, all because of one particular inspector’s commitment to “type” over all else.
A well-run inspection system is a wondrous thing. A poorly managed one? Well, just look at some of the VNIIK-approved Akhal Tekes in the US and Europe being advertised for jaw-dropping sums.
Like this you mean? Ack!
http://www.theequinest.com/images/akhal-teke-stallion.jpg
Oh, I’ve always found Akhal Tekes slightly disturbing but now i know why. I always thought they were expected to look like that!
Not all of them are that bad so don’t completely disregard them yet. I work for an endurance rider who rides and breeds tekes. They are all well put together and compete at the highest level. Here’s some of her horses:
http://embodiedspirit.deviantart.com/gallery/31882716#/d47zi1m
http://embodiedspirit.deviantart.com/gallery/31882716#/d47zbj0
http://embodiedspirit.deviantart.com/gallery/31882716#/d47ziz5
The last one is her first homebred and is a tall athletic filly who isn’t just a pretty colour
I’ll have to keep an eye out. The way my life’s shaping up, I might be ready to take on an endurance horse in about three years, and I would dearly love for it to be a Teke. I learned to ride on them when I was a kid and I always thought they were fabulous… the ones you see that look deformed? We know that’s NOT what they’re supposed to look like.
The ones I got to ride look more like the ones the Shamborant stud farm produces, so I still have a special attachment to that type:
http://www.shael-teke.com/web/shael.nsf/Sires/C30D1504079EFD858525729A0027ABB3
Heck, maybe that market will crash too and I might be able to afford one of his horses in my retirement
Now that’s what athlectic horses should look like! I think they’re all gorgeous, who cares if they don’t have a kool kolor
Yikes! That is awful!
Well, isn’t this why organizations have BOARDS, and BYLAWS, and COMPETENT PEOPLE?
*crickets*
Well, OK, they SHOULD.
“But, my god, dahling, ….!”
LMAO. Thank you, love this.
This is what I meant, the older, European registries (Hannovarian, Trakainers, Oldenburg, etc. etc.) I’m Canadian, and we don’t seem to have the issue that the US has with the “American WB” registry that will inpect and approve any old fugly half-draft.
And don’t forget in America we are always trying to create new fuglies or unimpressive horses. I shake my head when someone crosses a TB and a shire (or some heavy horse) and than proceed to ask for 5k for a foal w/ no impressive or unk blood lines). Oh and don’t forget if it’s a color we’ll create an association for that color. Conformation? Who cares about conformation. WE WANT COLOR! Oh who cares the horse will break down in three years, we’ll just toss it and get another purdy color. -_-;. I can write a book about the issues I have with horse associations in America and compare how our associations are run 180 of those in Europe.
Have got to realize tho, what Americans do and how the inspection are done in Europe are 180 of each other. Like the Arabian. We have the American Arabian that seem to be more psyco and crazy than the ones nor bred in America. I would just like to see horses to an endurance race. How many would fall out due to lameness within the first ten miles? There’s a WB breed I believe that the stud has to do show jumping, dressage, and eventing and has to fall with in the criteria. Any lameness, nope. Any conformational defects allowed. Nope. I’m drawing a blank tho. I think it’s just done in Europe, so this way they can export their perfectly good horses to America to help create monsters *sigh*…… I mean make the horse do fifty miles, and if the horse comes up unsound or drugged than they don’t get certificates….. Oh wait I forgot. Just register as many horses as possible to make as much $$$$ at the horses expense……. People sicken me, they really do……
Inspection is what Icelandic horse breeders do too, and it works. The benefit of inspections over competition is that with inspections, if all the horses deserve a low “grade,” that’s what they all get. Then breeders know they have to clean up their acts.
IF the inspectors are honest and have more interest in the future of the breed than they do in patting one another on the back! !
Thirty years ago the people who came to inspect my stallion (already passed by the Vet) for two hours to fail him.
In the end they had to give up and pass him, but the reason given, sotto voce, was that he was going to be real competition for one of their stallions!!!
If you appointed people from OUTSIDE the selected breeds, you might be OK.
Out side the breed, outside of the area (even better yet on a different continent) and make them sign a contract that says if they knowingly fail a horse for no good reason other than the horse being serious competition that they forefight their juding liscence and can never get it back in any association….. Samething if they pass a fugly…..
There is a level of ingegrity that’s really slipping in American Competitive Anything. Oh, it’s slipping elsewhere, too, don’t get me wrong.
I just wish that people were more interested in the real integrity and reputation for amazing quality of their horse breed instead of just “winning/losing.” Blind inspections where owners & breeders are unknown to the inspectors might help, but of course that would be impossible in a smaller registry with few top breeders.
There’s no perfect answer except that inspectors must be proud of their honesty, integrity, expertise and also take unadulterated joy in seeing a REALLY GOOD HORSE, no matter who owns him. THAT is a real horseman.
There’s not a lot of unimpeachable honor going around these days, if ever there was anyway.
Wouldn’t inspection be nice?
In an old race horse book, there was a story about a trainer who went from barn to barn on race day, explaining that they had run out of extra buckets, and could he borrow one to ice his racehorse’s bad leg before the race? He went back to the barn, stacked the 20 odd borrowed buckets neatly in a corner, tacked up his perfectly sound racehorse, and cruised the horse home at great odds with a spectacular win.
It was a great story, but it bears pointing out that no one questioned the man’s honesty. Everyone simply nodded about the lame horse and loaned the bucket. We routinely breed and compete horses that would be totally useless as a day to day riding or working horse. Whether it’s a racehorse with soles so thin it needs pads and numbed feet to run a race (but Hell, it wins that way!), a reining champion who is six inches downhill and can’t actually move forward to save its life (But Damn she can sliiiiiiiiiiiiiide!), or a halter horse that savages its handlers unless wearing a chain and studs under its noseband (Ain’t he just purrrrrdy?!), we continually perpetuate types of horses that might be good for some sort of competition, but fail in the category of just being a good using horse.
Add to this problem the industry-wide issue of wanting a top performer at age 3, and we end up with horses that are making major money and winning great fame, even though they are going to literally fall apart mentally or physically by the time they are age five. By then, they have won status as a premier stud/broodmare prospect, and people are staring at pictures in the Blah Blah Journal and booking their breedings sight unseen. AQHA is the worst IMO about happily breeding anything to anything and cheerfully shipping their rejects off to slaughter, but I suspect that’s because the Jockey Club can’t get as much per pound on those bony, streamlined thoroughbreds. Let’s face it– if quarter horses are ‘America’s Horse’, then they certainly reflect our country-wide materialistic mentality of buying it, trying it, discarding it, and trying something different.
There are champion horses out there that shouldn’t be breeding. To be fair, a gentleman I worked for assured me that breeding is to some extent a guessing game– he told me the ugliest colt he ever saw came from two world champions– evidently Mom and Dad just weren’t a good genetic match. But I’ve seen top level horses with serious faults. In fact, I’ve only seen one or two that had what could be considered correct conformation– far more of them appeared to have won despite a litany of faults that should have removed them from the future gene pool.
Of course, look at Poco Lena sometime. She was ONE HOMELY MARE, but she got the job done & is a Hall of Famer. And if you bred her to a big tall lanky WP champion, well…. who knows what you’d get?!?!
Just because 2 horses win a lot, even within the same discipline, doesn’t mean they’re made for each other.
Do we even need inspections? What about a few basic standards to begin with, other than “not too much white”? Certain things are pretty evident in a photo, even to a 4H judging contestant. If you had regional experts (heck, they could even be local judges) take the photos and videos to ensure non-tampering… then again, the sheer VOLUME of baby quarter horses every year makes this kind of impossible. *sigh*
Poco Lena had 174 halter points and even though I originally shared you opinion about her being ugly, I recently saw some better photos of her and she really was a beautiful mare with a less than beautiful head.
*I* think she had very durable & solid conformation, if a bit of a long back, but in today’s world, her plain brown color, long head and cute little neck wouldn’t get her any notice in the halter ring. Plus she was pony-sized. So were her winning offspring, I might add.
That mare was tough, to have survived the misfortunes she endured. I love tough athletic mares so much.
Yes Cattypex, all of those qualities she possessed are why she won halter “back in the day,” because horses were judged (IMO) more appropriately than the freak show we have going on in the halter ring today. From the FQHA website:
Definition of the Quarter Horse
Bob Denhardt . . .”We were looking for horses like Little Joe and Joe Moore, Ballymooney and Red Dog, Guinea Pig and Possum, Zantanon and King, Jack McCue and Bullet. They weren’t Thoroughbreds . . .and they didn’t look like Thoroughbreds . . . not even fat Thoroughbreds! They were small and compact, averaging about 14-2 and weighing from 1050 to 1200. They had good heads . . . and big jaws, were rather short necked and had medium withers. All were exceptionally well muscled, and it was probably this feature that first caught your eye.”. . . these features were clearly characteristic of a breed, and by them we could always pick out a Quarter Horse in a corral full of Morgans, Arabs, Thoroughbreds. . or any other light breed! They were as unique in their conformation as they were in their ability to work cattle!” Quoted from an interview with Bob Denhardt in the January 1964 Quarter Horse Journal
Ernest Browning. . . “A visit to the Browning’s Mule Shoe Ranch is mute testimony for this man’s unwavering stand for using horses. Animals lacking good feet and legs; stamina that comes only with proper breeding, and cow-sense would never make it back to the gathering pens in his herd. “I have never opposed a racing program within the organization,” said Mr Browning. “I have opposed only those suggested breeding programs which would adversely affect the genuine conformation and positive characteristics of the Quarter Horse breed.” Quote from, “He Likes the Using Kind” by Garford Wilkinson, The Quarter Horse Journal, September 1959.
R L Underwood . . .”The modern Quarter Horse is still the fastest in the world for short distances. He is stocky and powerful, with massively muscled legs which enable him to stop, start and turn faster than the shiftiest steer. Although he rarely stands more than 15 hands he often weighs more than 1200 pounds. But despite his bulk the Quarter Horse is handsome and graceful. He has an unusual head, with small alert ears and a great muscular jowl. His body is short and heavy, yet he is as light on his feet as a ballet dancer. . . .” Excerpt from article on the Quarter Horse, and R L Underwood (AQHA Founder) from Life magazine July 1943.
Helen Michaelis . . .”In performance and endurance the Quarter Horse has never been excelled, and in bloodlines he has held his own for well over two-hundred years. There is but one way to preserve the Quarter Horse, and that is to breed Quarter Horses to Quarter Horses.” Quoted from the AQHA Stud Book, No. 1, Helen Michaelis, Editor.
Bob Denhardt, Ernest Browning, R L Underwood, and Helen Michaelis were founders of AQHA and are AQHA Hall of Fame inductees. All four knew what the AQHA was supposed to be about. Their belief in the value of the original Quarter Horse stands in their own words as the essence of what the Foundation Quarter Horse Association is dedicated to promoting.
Here is what an inspection would do for me, if I created it. It would quite simply certify that a mature horse is correct, built to stay sound, and was capable of basic handling, such as walking and trotting on a lead line around some cones. I don’t actually WANT inspections that determine if the shoulder is too straight or too sloped. I don’t want someone to decide if my horse has purdy movement or lovely muscling. I want someone to certify to me that my horse is NOT built in such a way that she or he is predisposed to serious lameness issues. Beyond that, let the horse win its championships or its money. The real question that certification needs to answer is whether that horse has the potential to be a breeding animal. A breeding animal should be without gross faults.
Let’s face it, if I take my Tennessee Walking Horse mare, and I take your working cowhorse, and I take another person’s warmblood, and we throw in a Dutch Harness Horse for a fun mix, what do we REALLY need to know about these animals? I don’t need to hear about how their leg angles need to be different, or how one horse’s shoulder suits it better for driving. I just need to know, if I breed that horse, am I running the risk of passing on a serious conformational fault that is going to result in a useless horse? If the answer is no, then let the games begin—competing will determine whether it’s ‘a good one’. If an inspection shows that the warmblood may move like a dream, but she’s doing it with a set of pigeon toes that would shame a Central Park pigeon, then she isn’t certified, and I won’t touch her, I don’t care how many millions she makes in her lifetime.
That’s my dream world inspection.
“The real question that certification needs to answer is whether that horse has the potential to be a breeding animal.”
We could also try having two kinds of registration – One to certify that horses are pure blooded, and another to certify that they are breeding material.
Re corrupt inspectors: The key is separation of power. One group writes the standard, another group enforces it.
“Re corrupt inspectors: The key is separation of power. One group writes the standard, another group enforces it. ”
While I would like to agree about separation of powers being the way to keep it all on the up and up- there is really nothing stopping either side from handing out or accepting favors from the other. Be it blatently obvious or hush money, quietly passed under the table. It happens a lot more than we may know about. We only hear about it when somone gets caught.
Here’s a kinda OT but you know lines – I know nothing about QH lines.
I have a 20 year old QH at the barn I work at that I am IN LOVE with. He is super sure footed and balanced, natural suspension, great BIG hard feet, lovely neck, just IMO really sturdy without being too wide (I am usually in the TB camp so I’m not into very wide horses, I’m also very short legged soooo) fantastic little jumper, the best work ethic I’ve ever had the pleasure of working with, and he’s 20 years old and he looks ageless and acts ageless. He’s super sound, I can’t imagine him not truckin along till he’s 30. He’s a bit of a worrier and needs consistent ground handling but I don’t know if that’s inherent personality or learned from past abuse – he’s an extremely one-person horse.
He’s everything I’d want in a horse so I looked up his lines for future future FUTURE endeavors in a next life, when I can have a second horse. He’s Coffee Golden Prince, by Coffee Continental (The Continental.)
Are these attributes known for The Continental lined horses and will I be able to possibly find a nice Continental lined horse eventually, or is this just a wackadoodle bloodline? I found some photos of The Continental and “my” gelding looks NOTHING like him besides having the roan.
I’m almost wondering if my little gelding was a color breeding experiment (he’s a palomino roan with 4 high white socks and a blaze) that managed to get hit with the awesome stick instead of the ugly stick. Because he’s not really QH standard, he’s just “nice built horse” standard.
Ha ha its funny you would bring this up, as I was just talking with my Dad about this the other day. I am personally not a QH person, but there are some pretty strait up atrocious out there that even I can pick out as being poor examples of the breed. It makes me sick to see these people devalue such an awesome breed. I personally have only really worked with Tb’s and WB’s, but I can appreciate what the QH’s are there for. I would be hard pressed to get my show horse to decide that stepping in the mud was a good idea, let alone chasing a cow! To me I love having a good solid QH around for when I need a mount to put my beginners on. I love the QH’s for their forgiving attitudes, as well as the intelligence to work through a situation. That’s not to say that there aren’t horses from every breed that can do that, I am just generalizing to make things a bit easier… But I got kind of off topic, what I was trying to explain to my dad was that I can’t understand why so many QH people feel the need to flood the market with things that are just not selling. The other day I was browsing Kijiji (Canada’s Craig’s list), and I came across what I think is an awesome looking Qh. Now my opinion is to be taken with a grain of salt here as I do not know exactly what QH people are looking for, but generally I thought the mare I found looked nice. My issue with the ad was that a comparable horse on WB side of things would have a much higher price tag. I am really just not sure what they are accomplishing with over breeding. There is no value in having horses that might be great animals, but you can’t charge anything for them because there are already hundreds of others on the market. That or your horse might even be the better horse, but an uneducated buyer can get those same lines at an auction for $200 so why buy from you? I think that for the breed to really start to recover there needs to be limits on how many you can register. Stallions need to be approved, and people who do not want to follow the rules can either pay a fortune to register their foals, or not be able to register them at all. It’s worked for a long time in the warmblood world, so maybe the AQHA should take some notes from them… Let’s just say I personally have never seen a Warmblood breeder clear out over 200 foals at an auction for $50 apiece. QH’s on the other hand seems to be every other auction. Someone should have told the meat buyer at the last one that the sound zips chocolate chip daughter couldn’t go for $200 to him because I mean how much better bred can you get?
P.S. Here is the mare that I found. (Like I said not a QH person so dont be to mean if I got her all wrong)
http://alberta.kijiji.ca/c-pets-livestock-for-sale-BEAUTIFUL-3-YR-OLD-PALOMINO-FILLY-W0QQAdIdZ315425013
MMMMM…look at that one in person, and take a vet. What are you going to use her for? She’s awfully upright in the pasterns, and I don’t like the looks of her knees. But that could be the camera angle. I’d also want a better look at her back. But she is a pretty color.
I really like what you have to say. I love QH’s too – they are often so kind, and kid-friendly. It boggles me how AQHA breeders are just super poor businessmen – then again, how American: Quantity has a quality all its own.
As for the mare, they did a good job of capturing her best angle. Her feet look DINKY, pasterns long, weak & upright, I think she’s pretty tied-in below the knee, maybe calf-kneed, and probably mutton-withered. Possibly also has a thick throatlatch. I don’t like something about her neck, either. Could just need correct muscling? Cow hocked, probably post legged behind. Are her fetlocks already swollen? Not good in a 3-year-old!!
BUT: She looks like she has a good strong hip & NICE butt, I like how her barrel ties into the back end, cute head & ears, and most importantly, she looks KIND. She looks like she would take very good care of a loving little girl – she has that wise-beyond-her-years face, and she’s just downright cute.
Oh you pulled out my Soap Box!!!!
I have a Palomino gelding in my back yard that should be the Poster Horse for why breeding for color is a bad idea. Amazing color, beautiful head, pretty neck, and a lovely tail. I have often thought he would make an Excellent Blanket Model.
I have no clue as to his pedigree, his papers ,whatever they may have been, were lost before he came to me. For all I know he is a Double Registered Golden Wonder.
I would bet that 90% of his health issues are from his breeding. The heart murmur and Scoliosis may have been a twist (no pun intended) of Fate but the Navicular Syndrome, the crooked legs, the roached back, the goose rump, the jet over bite those are all conformational flaws from somewhere. That does not touch his delicate physical state. Let us just say he does not suffer from Hybrid Vigor. Most expensive Free horse I have ever owned!
And what about KNOWINGLY breeding HYPP horses!!!
Who the H*&& thought THAT was a good idea?!
“An excellent blanket model” — I love it! One of the best lines I’ve read so far!
100% agree on the HYPP breeding. I think that all AQHA horses need to be tested before they are registered unless both parents are proven to be N/N. Furthermore, the AQHA should prohibit the registration of foals from a parent that is N/H or H/H. Why take the chance of breeding a horse that is N/H? The foal has a 50% chance of inheriting the gene! Just plain stupid! AQHA should do more to elminate the disease from the gene pool.
I, too, have a beautiful palomino living in my back yard. He’s not a QH though, he is half saddlebred. He has nice legs, awesome, big feet, and mostly good conformation. On the down side he got the slender saddlebred build, and he can be a little hot at times. I love him to death though…so happy hubby didn’t want to get a QH.
There is no need to test all AQHA horses for HYPP prior to registration. Only those horses who trace back to “Impressive” have been found to carry the gene. Only those horses need to be tested, assuming they are not the progeny of previously tested N/N animals. There are other genetic disorders that are just as awful such as HERDA and OWLS and those animals susceptible for those disorders should be tested before they are bred.
And people need to remember with OWLS that frame overo does *not* have to be visible on the horse. My friend has a Paint gelding who’s registered as a breeding stock…but has one obvious frame spot on his side. It’s about three inches in diameter…and I’m betting if he was a mare people wouldn’t test him because it’s so not obvious. All *solid* horses that have overo in their lineage need to be tested from the frame gene.
All registries are guilty.. The color thing went with paints (Palomino, homozygous, buckskins, even b&w), Appys (Palomino, buckskin, leopard, cremello) Warmbloods arent much better Ive seen some FUGLY stallions just because they are cremello, perlino, xyz and will produce color.. UGH. Unfortunately conformation, temperment go right out the freaking window. You should have to have a license to breed and it should LIMIT the amount of horses you can breed in a year per stallion until the horse market improves. Embryo transfer should be limited to 2 foals per mare per year. You should have to prove income and any big time breeder who breeds over a certain amount a year should be prepared to buy back any foal of their mare or stallion in the event that the buyer is going to sell to auction or there is a potential for the horse going to slaughter. ALSO any baby MUST be registered and marked with a chip BEFORE it is sold, and every horse should be scanned and any former listed owner and breeder contacted before going to slaughter- if all give up buying rights THEN the horse can be slaughtered. This would create more jobs and boost the economy. win win for all!
There are some backwoods warmblood registries these days as well, and that is where many of the fugly but colored stallions are “approved” for breeding. The main european studbooks look at offspring as foals, stallion prospects are looked at again at 2 or 3 years of age and then candidates are sent to the 100 day test (the format is now changed though and the length has been shortened). Those who make it through the test are scored on everything from individual gaits, character, temperament, rideability etc. Only then will they be considered breeding stallions.
Certain WB registries that originated in the US do not follow that standard at all and there is very little breed standard.
KWPN stallions who are in the first few years of breeding also have their get evaluated and if they are not producing what is expected of them their breeding license is revoked. It really reduces the amount of fugly, no talent horses but there are always throwbacks, and always those people who refuse to look at how their mare scored at the approvals and breed because they have “so and so” on their papers.
ha ha, you should’ve seen my husband’s crazy Missouri uncle get all up in arms at the prospect of the state requiring FOOD ANIMALS be chipped in order to ensure FOOD SAFETY FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION. Because that’s Big Government. Apparently his attitude was the majority opinion in that state.
Nice ideas, but in the real world?
Not so much.
Is it just me, or is there something really strange going on with the reins in the roan Pepto mare picture? I don’t have the greatest resolution screen, but it almost looks like the reins are crossed! Maybe the rider is just holding them too tight?.. Doesn’t help the horse’s conformation issues, but my first impression was that if the reins were crossed in front, then that horse is a saint not to have thrown that girl!
I didn’t notice it before, but it seems that you are correct. Poor horse. =(
Maybe it’s some new short cut to teach a horse how to neck rein or something?
http://www.operationhorserescue.blogspot.com
I once got in an argument with someone here who thought crossing the reins WAS a good way to teach neck reining. Are you NUTS? How the hell do you regain control if the horse spooks or bolts or something?
It’s no wonder people think horseback riding is so dangerous. Sure it is, if you do dumb shit like that!
I had a client who finished her reining pattern and the judge asked her to approach.
He said,” Who trained your horse?”
“She’s standing over there,” my client replied and pointed me out.
“As soon as you leave the arena, go thank her for training such a nice, patient horse. Don’t even dismount, just ride over and tell her what I said.”
She came over and the first thing I saw was her crossed romel reins.
“Oops,” she said.
She scored a 701/2.
My client told me she had wondered why he kept flippinng his head to the outside of every turn.
You CANNOT teach a horse to neck rein by crossing the reins. It pulls their head to the outside and HURTS. Neck reining is a cue, not a pull.
It is a short cut to teach neck reining. I’ve heard of it a lot actually. I’ve mostly heard it around English-based barns who have a few riders who want to neck rein, so I can kind of understand why someone would think its a good idea.
You’re right…they’re crossed! Who is taking that photo and didn’t say anything? (I’ve accidentally crossed reins before, but never got ON with them crossed).
Are they crossed, or does she just have that outside rein cranked to keep the mare from dropping her shoulder or simply to stay on the rail? I can’t tell.
Poor fugly mare. At least she has someone who loves her!!
OK so I don’t have a background in breeding animals of any kind and I’m not thinking about the true fuglies when I ask this but; I have always wondered if the fact that we use quarter horses for so many diciplines has anything to do with the wide range of conformations types we see. Are we selecting differently shapped horse for halter, wp, racing, ranching, dressage, cutting, trail ect, ect? If we are that widens the gene pool a lot and leaves a lot more room for variation within the breed. I’m thinking of the difference between the field/working dogs and the ones we see in shows as I ask. Anyway I was just curious if its the same with the horses too.
I haven’t been posting much lately… reading + learning more = less to say
I really think we should go back to breeding the quarter horse of YEARS ago.. some werent gorgeous but could work a cow then go right in and win a halter class. The ALL AROUND QH that used to be here but has now gone far far away. You can hardly tell a HUS QH from a TB, or a halter champion from a grossly obese body builder.. Ugh!
Of course, many foundation stallions back in the day were…. Thoroughbreds. Or TB type.
Sure, there were the little bulldoggy guys we’re familiar with today, but there were also horses like Traveler, and Jet Deck. Three Bars.
So right from the start you’ve got a diverse group of athletes with a few common traits. I mean, the AQHA isn’t even 75 years old!
OH, but ON TOPIC, I totally agree and you see it just as bad (if not worse) with TBs. I personally think there’s nothing more beautiful than a nicely built TB, but they are so few and far between anymore that it doesn’t even matter. If it doesn’t have crappy feet, then it has no hind end strength. If it’s got a decent hind end then it’s got a stick thin giraffe neck attached to a clunky head. If it’s got a pretty head then it’s attached to a back so long you can fit 5 saddles on it, and I can’t even start to wrap my head around how it’s okay to breed pasterns too long cause HEY it makes fast horses, we don’t have to worry about if those horses break down 10 yards after the finish line – cause they finished, didn’t they?
I guess the underlining difference between the Quarter Horse industry and the TB industry is that the really poor quality QH’s are being bred by a lot of inexperienced breeders, or breeders who just don’t care, to look at anything other than bloodlines 234234 times removed, and are being pumped directly into a performance-pleasure market. What makes me sicker about the TB breeding is that these horses are being bred NOT for the performance or pleasure market, but simply looking at bloodlines 123345 times removed, hoping for a fast horse even though it’s a one in a million chance, and THEN being dumped on the riding market. You’d think half decent conformation might be key for such a strenuous task (and you’d think we’d learn from Ruffian that crap conformation doesn’t let you last long enough to even finish a profitable career) so I mean, the TB breeders can’t even fall back on, “we’re trying to strengthen the lower levels.”
And on that point, that’s bullshit anyway. There are SO many horses, that even a fabulously put together horse is probably not going to make it much higher than 4H or local level. So there’s no reason the lower levels NEED to breed poor quality horses. There should be quality all the way around.
I love color. I LOVE it. But even then, you can breed for color and conformation. If you look long enough you’ll find breeding quality colored mares in the kill pen in this economy, let alone if you have some cash to spend on breeding stock. There’s no reason to breed for color before conformation – you CAN have both…..
I forgot how to add pix, but would love to show you some of my OTTBs (I work in a school system and can’t do FB links from my work computer.). They are the exception, though, and not the norm. My newest is registered as Tahir. Stakes winners on both sides – by Touch Gold out of a Holy Bull mare. He was bred by Adena Springs (a class operation that offers retraining or permanent retirement to any horse it bred if necessary). He, too, is class all the way from his conformation to his personality. I got him from an owner/trainer straight from Laurel Park in MD who recognized his exceptional … well, everything. He’s been a dream to own and train. He’s healthy, sound, kind, intelligent, and has exceptional breeding and conformation. I won’t even tell you what I paid for him because it’s laughable. She listed him through a TB placement group in an effort to do right by him. There are horses in slaughter pens going for more. I’m just glad he’s one that will never be there.
@Brandy: Updated info is that this a racehorse “trainer’s” boarding stable, not a rescue. (And Murrieta is in Riverside County, not Orange.) The woman claims that some of the horses had strangles recently, which is why they’re so thin. Sure. She has also had her racing license suspended for not paying her employees and other financial issues.
OTOH, she did sign the sales ticket for some horses at Barrett’s not too long ago, including one for $30,000 and another for $27,000. If she could spend that to buy a couple of horses, you’d think she could pay to feed them.
As for the AQHA … sigh. Some things they get so right and others they get so very, very wrong.
Oh, I could go on about this topic all night! And you are so right, the lines between AQHA, APHA, and ApHA are so blurred anymore that I am not sure why three registries don’t just join forces, and when foals are born, just give them certificates based on the color instead of the parentage. I hate it when I see “guaranteed color producer” on an ad for a stallion. Nobody every says guaranteed good conformation, or guaranteed good temperament, the things that really matter. Another pet peeve is when I see classes at shows that segregate based on “colored” or “non-colored” horses. So is Red not a color? I resisted ever getting a paint because I hate, HATE the idea of breeding for color! A pretty or fancy color should be an extra bonus on an otherwise well thought out, well planned breeding that produces a properly conformed horse with a good MIND! Dang it though, admittedly I now own 4 paints – 3 were purchased because they are built nice and have good minds. One of them I ended up with because when I tried to load his half sister on the trailer he kept following her in – 3 tries later, the breeder said to me, “just take him and I’ll make you a good deal”. Which is kind of the topic of the day – the buy-one-get-one-free method of breeding for as many babies as possible in an effort to get them in the ring to make a name for a stud who can’t/won’t ever make a name for himself. One note as to the breeder I purchased my horses from – he doesn’t breed for the show ring, he breeds for ranch work. His gorgeous stallion has a great body and mind and beautiful color as a bonus, and no show record. He is an amazing working ranch horse and the only arena he sees is the ranch rodeo arena as a pickup horse, or ridden by a judge or flagger. You can walk up to him in a 100 acre pasture full of mares during breeding season, throw a saddle on him and ride away. That is why I have purchased his foals.
My first pony was a grade Appaloosa mare. VERY pretty and athletic, smart as a whip and devious. Totally wasted on me – eventually she went to a contesting home.
But when I got her, the seller gave me a 1978 or 1980 issue of Appaloosa News, which featured an article about how “real” Appaloosas don’t look at all like Quarter Horses, and beware the people breeding them that way!
There were a series of photos, and I distinctly remember a photo of 2 Apps in native costume, and the caption said something like “Don’t let the Indians fool you – these horses do NOT exhibit good Appaloosa conformation, they merely look like spotted Quarter Horses.”
What hath we wrought?
We’ve bred nothing BUT spotted QH’s. They’re pretty, but they are also not the appy of 20 years ago. Why? Because people wanted cute heads and more hair.
I LOVE appys. They are a serious weakness of mine. I HATE show appies conformation just as badly as we all hate halter QH conformation. That said, I would buy a decendant of Dreamfinder ANY day of the week, because every one I’ve met (even 2 stallions) were the best tempered, most awesome riding horses you could ever, ever hope to find.
http://www.felixfjord.blogspot.com
George Morris LOVES Appys. I remember an issue of Jumping Clinic where he mentions that the only horse he actually still owns is a retired Appy that was such an incredible athlete.
I had an Appy who had a super thick mane and tail. He was 16.1 hands and all legs and neck. He was also leopard colored and 100% Appy on his papers. Oh, and he could jump the moon. I always thought he was some sort of genetic anomoly. I can’t tell you how many people asked how much TB was in him.
I, too, love Appaloosas. I don’t think there’s anything quite as pretty as a nicely built, useful-looking golden bay with a blanket over his hips.
I do think color should be a factor in the breeding of Appaloosas. But it shouldn’t be the only factor. The Quarter Horse, Thoroughbred, and Arabian were used to “improve” the breed (as in, prettify the head, mane and tail), but now it seems the Appaloosa is diluted.
The thing about “purity” of animal breeds, on the other hand…
Think about where the Appaloosa came from. And all breeds of horses, really. THey come from breeding type to type for thousands of years, and someone then decided to make a Stud Book. I believe the Bedouins and other Middle Eastern peoples were the first? A fiercely clannish tribal people very interested in preserving their own ethnic group?
Then I think the Spanish took it up (heck, they were a majorly Muslim society until 1492, so *see above*), and of course the English, and the French, etc. But it was only the “hotbloods” and other horses of nobility who – like their royal owners – got their bloodlines tracked & mapped & kept “pure.” Such a very human construct.
Anyway, Appaloosas were mutt Indian ponies who then had some very specific characteristics humanly selected for.
Also, to make a profit – or break even, or suffer least financial loss – and initially secure a decent life for your foals, you’re gonna have to breed something that’s IN DEMAND in your market, whether that’s Zips Chocolate Chip, Magnum Psyche, or The Best Damn Trail Horse For Miles Around. In my area, I’ve seen both do quite well.
I just don’t get the DRIVE to breed. I use the word drive because I can’t think of a better one. Its like an obsession with people it seems. My preferred horses are Arabians but the breeding issues are similar throughout the breeds of course. I got a gorgeous big thick-boned fiery chestnut filly with a big blaze and high white socks out of my new mare this year. I’ve been asked about 1,000 times since she was born whether/when I am breeding the mare again. My answer is Oh Hell No. This was an easy pregnancy, a quick no-issues birth, and a happy healthy baby who I hope will be my next endurance horse. Case closed. Just because she threw one nice foal that was born with a purpose= breed her again and sell them and make $$! To other people anyway. I just don’t get it. To me its high dollar, high pressure, the anticipation and anxiety before foaling–and then you have the responsibility of raising a good horse citizen from scratch. I don’t want to take on that responsibility more than once, no matter how nicely my maiden mare did as a mom (faultless!) or how quality her one and only filly is!
Good for you! In today’s economic climate, no matter how lovely your mare, there’s a chance you won’t be able to sell her babies at all. And the thing is, unless you’re breeding the top 1% of whatever breed, it costs so much more to grow them than buy them.
I’m glad you got a good one, and it’s refreshing to hear a breeder who cares about bone!
Now come on Mugs, we can’t exactly expect most people to think through breeding their animals when so many clearly can’t think through having their own offspring…. I’ve been told multiple times I’m an ass for my view points on the subject, but I firmly believe the “just cause it can reproduce doesn’t mean it should” should start at the human level…
LOL! We have a saying over at Snarky Rider: “Just because it has a uterus, doesn’t mean it should have a baby”. We don’t limit this to horses…
Man, you found some prizewinners this time!
Gooserumps ain’t necessarily a bad thing… for a jumper… but a goose rump combined with that straight shoulder is just unfortunate. Poor lil critter. She’s a lovely color.
This is why I have been falling in love with the idea of inspections lately.
Having to get stock inspected and approved for breeding would be a lifesaver imo. I see fugly registered horses on a daily basis and because a mare has a uterus and she’s registered she’s going to be a great broodmare.
Fugly this might make you cry. We don’t have that many quarter horses in New Zealand, so I don’t see many. I just looked at that first photo and thought “It just looks like a quarter horse to me.”
But don’t get me started on Arabians !
Cheers
Jenny
I agree. I actually saw an ad for a relation to hollywood dunit (not sure if it was a son, or grandson ect.), and I thought it was horrid. I actually wrote a post about it. He was perlino, had crappy conformation and had never competed in his life, yet they were breeding him to mares and for some reason, they thought the stud fee should be higher than other stallions, who has ACTUALLY won something and looked nice.
I actually don’t mind the look of the pepto granddaughter. I would never breed her and her conformation isn’t great (hello, overly small neck), but she looks like she might make a nice trail riding mount. If I was to pick a horse out of the pictures for myself, I would pick her. When I first saw that pally stud, I thought he might have been 2, possibly younger. When I read that he was six my eyes melted all over the keyboard. I know you’re probably planning to bitch about this in another post, but WHY do they insist on allowing HYPP and HERDA horses to breed?! Ridiculous.
I saw the most impressive thing the other day! A three year old stud, that was blue roan (and can’t produce reds, chestnuts or bays, which is only a plus – not an essential) who had shown successfully, had decent conformation (although he was downhill, but I thought he might grow out of it being 3) and whose stud ad was well written. He was priced appropriately, above $1,000, and (are you all sitting down?) the woman standing him said something like “This may be the only year we are standing him as we are NOT going to flood the market with his babies, unlike some breeders”. I wrote a post about that stud – kudos to his owner! We need more people like that, I was pleasantly surprised to read that someone out there who owns a decent stud is not going to breed everything!
http://www.operationhorserescue.blogspot.com
I thought “own son” or “own daughter” is supposed to mean that the horse was bred by the owners of the stallion. Though I suspect that it is misused a lot.
It has always saddened me that the QH of all breeds of horses seem to get treated most like livestock. I met a “breeder” who told me that he made sure that he never spent more on his foals (and he bred 30+ a year) than he could get from the meat man, that way he always made a profit. For the record, none of his horses were particularly nice horses.
Remember the lady from Canada, featured a while back because she was complaining about the prices her horses were bringing. She bred a boatload every year because you have to breed a lot of horses to come up with a good one. . . sigh. It’s not magic. You breed two great horses together and odds are you’ll get something nice.
My personal favorite is that so-called breeders seem to think everything comes from the stud. Take a quality stud and breed it to a random mare and that stallion’s superior genetic make up will overcome all of her faults because hey, she’s just there because of the uterus, she doesn’t contribute *anything* genetically (BIG eye roll).
At least AQHA will not register a HYPP H/H foal at all, and if the foal has HYPP N/H or an H/H parent is MUST be tested before registration.. Now if they wouldnt register N/H foals it would be awesome.
Yeah, AQHA doesn’t register HYPP horses any more but it sure took them long enough to make that decision…long enough to corrupt the breed. JMHO
HYPP did not corrupt the entire QH breed. All the affected animals trace back to Impressive, and while there are a lot of progeny, not all QH’s are affected.
luvredponies says: HYPP did not corrupt the entire QH breed. All the affected animals trace back to Impressive, and while there are a lot of progeny, not all QH’s are affected.
True, not “all” QH’s were affected but due to the AQHA’s hesitancy in putting the word aout about HYPP, the disease affected alot more horses than necessary. HYPP is still around because humans still want to “win at all costs” so they gamble by breeding instead of just eliminating the disease.
I can’t agree enough. I think the overbreeding of horses by bloodline and/or color and the irresponsible practices of the “big three” registries is having a huge negative impact on horses in the US.
My paint mare is a shining example of everything that’s been talked about. Several years ago, a training client of mine knew I had an empty corral and a soft heart and told me that the big name AQHA and APHA breeder/trainer that she had just sent her own big $$ halter-bred weanling to had a foal that was going to be put down in three days if no one agreed to take it. The foal had been born almost totally blind in both eyes, and the breeder didn’t want to deal with her, and didn’t want to hang on to her long enough to breed her as a 2 year old. The foal had been weaned at 5 months, then spent 5 months in a dark stall on the far side of the barn, getting daily turnout in a round pen. She didn’t halter or lead – they simply chased her down the barn isle and herded her though a chute into the round pen once a day. I felt terrible for the poor thing and agreed to take her – I’d trained/handled/ridden several blind horses in the past, and I’d raised a few foals, so I figured, “why not?” She had her papers though they hadn’t been submitted to the APHA, yet, and she had all the right names on said papers. They delivered her that weekend and when I climbed in to halter her, she gave me no resistance, unloaded and led beautifully. Her breeder said, “Hey, you want a job halter breaking babies? We couldn’t get a halter on her at all.” WTF? She trains Halter horses at the NATIONAL LEVEL and she couldn’t halter-break a weanling I had leading decently in 5 min?
So she hands me the papers and says, “Too bad about this one. Her color is great (note: she’s a medicine hat tovero with one blue eye). I probably wouldn’t have thought about putting her down if she’d had longer legs. She’s the third foal out of her dam with legs that are too short. I’m giving her dam one more try, and then she’s gone.” She was true to her word – a google search the next year showed me that my mare’s dam is now being bred by another APHA breeder in Nevada.
Which leads to my next issue with this breeder – she knowingly breeds HYPP N/H horses. My mare is N/H. I didn’t know it until she fell over and had a seizure as as yearling. I had gotten an APHA membership when I sent her papers in, so I did a lookup – turns out the three previous foals were all N/H too, and her sire is N/N. I contacted UC Davis and my vet and thankfully she’s been seizure-free for several years now *knock on wood*. The breeder also knowingly breeds horses with other genetic issues. One cross between a mare she owns and a client’s stud has produced (that I know of) two deaf horses. She still bred that cross again the next year.
Yes, I do ride my mare- N/H horses are actually no more unsafe to ride than most horses. If their condition is well controlled with diet and exercise (or medication if needed) they are good to go. Moreover, if a horse is on the correct diet, the horse will not be induced into a seizure episode during exercise (please feel free to fact-check me by doing a keyword search on the UC Davis website – they have several scientific research papers dealing with this subject). N/H horse simply are not going to fall over while you’re riding them, provided you are keeping their potassium intake to under 33 grams per meal and under 100 grams per day. That said, my mare will be a virgin for life – I am strongly against the intentional breeding of ANY HYPP horse and am a vocal person about it. I also have eschewed renewal of my APHA membership after I registered my mare – I will not support the APHA. Period.
Conformationally, my little girl is, well she’s special. Her shoulder is straight, but not terrible, she’s a bit pencil-necked, mutton-withered, and has tiny, lousy feet that require special shoes in front. She’s goose rumped and a honey- but man, is she the right color! I started taking my fugly girl to shows (including APHA approved/PAC shows) as a yearling just to get her out and about – she won me literally a wall full of ribbons in three seasons doing just halter and showmanship classes at 3-4 shows a year. I broke her out at age 4 and she won me a few ribbons in the pleasure classes, and just recently one of my 14 year old students took her to a local show and got 2nd in showmanship, 3rd in novice barrels, and 4th in novice poles – it was the girl’s first time showing western (her second show ever) and she ribboned in all three classes she entered on a blind, fugly hypp n/h horse. I also ride her on trail (no joke we go over some pretty rugged terrain because I’ve trained her to rein, seat, and voice commands to let her know when to step up/over or down/off of things) and she keeps up with my arabs on trail. She loves to go camping, is usually the calmest, most relaxed horse around at shows (she has been known to lie flat out and sleep on the sidelines – in an out of the way spot – while I’m standing at the rail watching my students’ classes), and I’ve even ridden her on city streets when construction blocked a trail and forced a detour. Disposition and training are KEY people!
My point is, I have a horse who is made up of all that is wrong with the QH/Paint/Appy world – and she’s still a freaking awesome horse.
She should never have been born, and I won’t ever breed her, but she exists and I’ve done the best I can with her. I think that the horse industry and all the owners and riders out there need to cut back on the breeding, train the horses we have, and damn it when we DO breed it needs to be done responsibly and with an eye for soundness and purpose.
sorry for the novel.
I’ve always hated the terms “Own Son” and “Own Daughter”. What the heck does that mean anyway?
I grew up with QHs. This is a terrific post today, Mugs, and spot on. Yes we know every breed has this problem, but the QHs are the most numerous in this country…think what might happen if as an organization they got serious with their qualifications on conformation. Maybe the other breed registries would follow suit.
As an aside, I am kind of horse shopping on the equine sales sites and plan to start trying some out next month. I am not aiming for any particular breed, but I ride low-level dressage so my criteria are level topline and correct legs, pref. a gelding, w/in 300 mi of my Texas location. I have been saving the URLs of some ‘possibles’ in my bookmarks, and so far have about 12 pretty good ones saved, with just about every common breed represented…interestingly, none of them are Quarters yet!
It goes like this for me on a QH ad: If I like the topline, the shoulders are straight. If I like the legs, the butt’s too high. If everything looks good, it’s a stallion… Leaves me wondering if I’ll ever see a QH that will fit the bill for me.
I look at the pix from the 60′s and 70′s and the breed sure looks different.
It goes like this for me on a QH ad: If I like the topline, the shoulders are straight. If I like the legs, the butt’s too high. If everything looks good, it’s a stallion… Leaves me wondering if I’ll ever see a QH that will fit the bill for me.
If it’s a stallion, he can be gelded.
Found this gorgeous y Y.O. Paso Fino for my SO…didn’t realize he hadn’t had “brain surgery”. SO points that out to me and I said SO? He can be cut…go look at him. Long story short, Rio was bought and gelded and even his former owner was impressed with the results. He wasn’t a bad stud, don’t think he knew he was one but after the gelding, he still had his brio but he was better horse without his gonads.
Me: “It goes like this for me on a QH ad: If I like the topline, the shoulders are straight. If I like the legs, the butt’s too high. If everything looks good, it’s a stallion… Leaves me wondering if I’ll ever see a QH that will fit the bill for me.”
Jenghis: “If it’s a stallion, he can be gelded. Found this gorgeous y Y.O. Paso Fino for my SO…didn’t realize he hadn’t had “brain surgery”. SO points that out to me and I said SO? He can be cut…go look at him. Long story short, Rio was bought and gelded and even his former owner was impressed with the results. He wasn’t a bad stud, don’t think he knew he was one but after the gelding, he still had his brio but he was better horse without his gonads.”
Jenghis, it may come to that, although I am hoping not…stallions add complications (i.e. fencing him away from my current mare and the next door neighbor’s mare, worries about the non-horsey-husband leading him if I’m busy, etc.) until the hormones are done. Guess I could board him till he’s truly ‘geld-ized’ but that can get expensive. Would just rather avoid all those if I can just get what I need right off the bat.
I should also have prefaced my statement “if everything looks good, it’s a stallion” with “if everything looks good, it’s a stallion…or unbroke/30 days! (Don’t want a greenie either. I am too old to fall on my butt again! Just trying to be realistic about things)
If I was after a mini or a pony, gelding a stallion would be fine… How long did it take your Paso to even out? I love the breed. I bet he’s gorgeous.
Jenghis, it may come to that, although I am hoping not…stallions add complications (i.e. fencing him away from my current mare and the next door neighbor’s mare, worries about the non-horsey-husband leading him if I’m busy, etc.) until the hormones are done. Guess I could board him till he’s truly ‘geld-ized’ but that can get expensive. Would just rather avoid all those if I can just get what I need right off the bat.
I should also have prefaced my statement “if everything looks good, it’s a stallion” with “if everything looks good, it’s a stallion…or unbroke/30 days! (Don’t want a greenie either. I am too old to fall on my butt again! Just trying to be realistic about things)
If I was after a mini or a pony, gelding a stallion would be fine… How long did it take your Paso to even out? I love the breed. I bet he’s gorgeous.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Like I said…not sure he even knew he was a stud but SO had him gelded and it was about 6 weeks later we went back and picked him up. Course, each stud will be different based on if they were used as a stud or, again, like Rio…he never knew what those dangly things were…LOL
Gorgeous isn’t the word I’d use…out of this world gorgeous would fit…and his personality is like Hammies in Over the Hedge. He gaits wherever he goes and soooo smooth. If you’d like a picture, it’s my S/N@aol….
Mugs I have to say, I’ve liked your last 3 post. Enough not to comment negatively at all, enough to agree with you, and enough not to nitpick or criticize like I usually do. I myself work at a quarter horse farm, with (as I’ve said before) a few direct sons of Shining Spark. Many of “our” horses have great bloodlines, but that’s what bothers me, all that is stressed is BLOODLINES. I won’t name myself or the farm, because I disagree with a lot there and have been asked personally not to make certain things public online. I love the horses themselves though and wish to stay there so I can’t out the owner. My issue is the fact that there is around….hm 9 studs? And lord knows how many “broodmares” who are just that and nothing else, sweet horses. MOST have a decent conformation. 99.9% (really,all except one out of the 60 there) are kindhearted enough to be a child’s horse IF they were all broke. But they aren’t. They waste life away in pasture, breeding until they can’t breed,and then in old age have no where to go or no use because they haven’t been trained to saddle. (That’s why I need to stay here and not stir things up, I am doing a greater good I hope).
Anyhow my post/comments have shown my irritation and my love to argue, however I just can’t agree more with you. Luckily, thanks to places like this people are starting too (slowly) realize this. Out of our 9 stallions, there have been only 3 breedings outside of our farm this year. Which means they aren’t earning any money. Why? Because even though their father has earned anywhere from 100,000 to 5 million dollars (we also have Boonsmal,and Peptospoonful studs), these stallions themselves have earned no money, no points, and no fame. They sit in their stall. Most are sweet hearted, and I love them, but they still…just sit there. One, a direct son from SS, is a perfect conformation bay. I mean PERFECT. I wish I could show a picture. Straight level topline, nice neck, round shoulder. Sweet temperament. I am glad we breed him more than we breed the other studs, a few who do have a show record. Just because his babies are well put together, healthy and seem to have more potential. I’d rather breed my horse to a perfect backyard horse with great bloodlines, then a fugly as sin, mean as all get out “winner” who just HAPPENS to be Shining Spark, or Hesapeptospoonful, or Peptoboonsmall, Or Chick O Lena’s son. So as I said, we aren’t earning much money, because no one is breeding to these stallions, which #1 show’s that a horse sitting in a stall ain’t worth much, and #2 show’s people are beginning to care about the actual stallion itself not just what “Brand” it is. It’s sad because they aren’t being bred, and it’s also the best thing ever. I love them all with my heart, but out of the 9, only 4 are worth breeding. Only 1 of those 4 is shown regularly (and winning at a local level in cowhorse events). But that 1 horse, has had many many many offspring, and all of them have had some sort of bone issue from what I’ve seen. But I’m not supposed to tell,…It really sucks. It’s a double edged sort.
Just in short, I agree with your post, and love it. From Quarter horse person to Quarter horse person. I totally get what you are saying. Sad thing is other breeds have been doing it too. “This horse is a great Grandson of Secretariat”. REALLY? Because so are 250,000 other foals considering he himself sired over 900. It just doesn’t matter, give me something pretty to look at, healthy, worth of a show ring with a quite temperament. Doesn’t matter to me where it came from, it’s just bragging rights. I’m related to every King George, along with many other people in history. Yet, I haven’t accomplished anything or came to their stature so who cares? I do have to admit though, as with earlier readers, my colt is 5 years old. Bought him at 5 months old. He is a QH cross with something Pinto because he came out a Bay Tobiano. Gorgeous. I took him to a parade last week and got sale offers. But he is GRADE. His mother is from Two Eyed Jack’s lines. Something I brag about but it means nothing to him, and his father could have been anything from a Saddlebred, to an Arabian,or just a grade pinto. It was an accidental breeding and I paid $600 for this horse when I turned 13 years old. I was stupid, but I had been around horses a lot before. I have to say he is the best friend I’ve ever had. His mother 15.3, his father supposedly 16hh, my horse came out just below 14.2 and I love him all the same. He is gorgeous, extremely intelligent, and used in therapy. He loves kids and has helped me through a lot. I wouldn’t trade him for the Shining Spark stallion at my farm. Hell I wouldn’t trade him for any stallion. He isn’t stud material, he won’t ever be bred, because he can’t. I knew enough to get him gelded as soon as they dropped, and I’m just a kid! He’s just a great pet, good therapy horse, decent cutting pony,and loves to jump. That’s all I need.
Paint Rider, you are biting the hand that feed you. You state you have been asked personally not to make comments online or out the owner, yet you’ve given plenty of hints about where you work. Enough so that your farm’s neighbors and acquaintences can guess who you are, especially when you describe the horse you ride.
While I agree that there is much wrong with the equine industry, if I were employed at such a farm I could not talk about the specifics of my employer if I hoped to keep my job. I’m a nurse, and I cannot talk about a specific case of child abuse, domestic violence, or any number of things that are very wrong – without losing my job. Not only is it unethical and unprofessional, but it’s a violation of federal privacy laws that protect the patient. If you don’t like what you see at your employer, move on. Or start your own farm and run things your way. But don’t collect a paycheck then sit on the internet and gossip about what you see where you work and how awful your employer’s practices are. You are just asking to be fired.
I was at my vet’s in Texas once and there was a humongous palamino in a stall. 17+ hands, wider through the chest than my Belgian, reminded me of the “double-muscled” cattle breed. When the owner came in to pay a vist, I found out it was a 2-YEAR-OLD FILLY! I hadn’t looked below, so I’d assumed a prime breeding age stud! I sure hope she was in to be evaluated for some sort of metabolic disorder, but I doubt it.
On another note – are your eyes bleeding on that last pic because of the horse or the riding or both? Neither are exactly cream-of-the-crop.
Probably HYPP…
Did I really need to see this with my morning coffee? I know “beauty (and color) is in the eye of the beholder” but perlinos are just plain creepy. Spooky, unnatural, unhealthy looking… You could not give me a champion perlino, wouldn’t take him.
And I happen to think perlinos and cremellos are gorgeous.
Provided the conformation is decent and they have a good mind, of course. 
Why can’t there be a dislike button?
I have the NICEST perlino that was rescued from a hoarder. She probably would have died if she wasn’t saved when she was. She’s an in your pocket kind of girl and has a great personality. Don’t judge a book by its cover.
I wasn’t attacking your horse. This is about the forest, not the trees.
Mugly – I like YOUR post. I’m not a huge QH fan and think there should be some kind of inspection process to eliminate all the bad hereditary traits of the breed (tiny feet, navicular, HYPP, etc.) Your post is fine.
My DISLIKE was refering to kt’s comment calling perlinos creepy, unhealthy and spooky. Isn’t that like racism?
a little…
Perlinos, cremellos & glass-eyed paints creep me out. I generally don’t like fleabitten grey, either. Purely a personal thing.
Of course, I always swore that I’d never have another white car, but when my trusty old Buick got totalled, I found a 12-year-old Volvo wagon that had everything I wanted at my price point. Aaaaaand it was white. Loved that car.
I don’t ever want a pink-skinned horse, though, if I can help it. Too many issues.
Every breed has it’s problems with breeding for the wrong reasons. I just had a flash back. When I was a kid my uncle managed a Morgan farm in VT (it later moved to NY then went under). I must have been about 10 in the late 80′s when I went to stay for a week (heaven!). The breeding stallion they had was “crazy”- he spent his time bashing his nose against the bars of his stall until it was bloody. They wore dirt bike helmets when they bred “Flash” and made me hide in the tack room when they took him out for exercise. I’m sure this was a training /handling issue. But he had horrible feet and crummy type (he looked like a saddlebred. I’m sure he had some out-cross in his blood). I remember I asked one time why they would ever use him as their main stallion with all his problems. I was given a icy glare and told his foals win in the ring. I was a horse crazy kid (everything on 4 legs is puurrrty!) but even I could see he shouldn’t have been passing on his genes. Luckily the mares were all well bred and of nice type so the foals were’t too bad in the looks dept. but they had dad’s attitude. That farm could have really produced some nice horses if they chose a better stallion and not just one with a winning record. When that farm dispersed I was given a broodie and I treasured her until the day she died (she was everything a Morgan should be- she’d been bred by another farm).
I’m an AQHA member, have been for close to 30 years but only because of the horses, surely not the association. AQHA is about pleasing the people with the most to lose. If you’re popular, your lineage with be too. They still allow registration of HYPP horses, that in itself tells the story that money is more important than the horses.
I’ve had people ask me what makes a QH a QH. Hard question to answer. Color? Nope. Height? Nope. Speed in 1/4 mile? For some. Body type? Not even close. How does one registry compare Impressive to Smart Little Lena? Or the 17 hand HUS 90% TB horses to Zips Chocolate Chip? There is so much TB influence now that Appendix has lost its meaning. I personally bred cow type horses, yes, a back yard breeder. My stud was foundation type – Blondy’s Dude / Leo and I bred him to my Doc Bar / King Fritz mare and a few outsiders. Nothing grew taller than 14.3 and the tankiest colt was out of a Smart Little Lena mare. They are all typical of Quarter Horses in the 50′s, 60′s that showed in halter in the morning and chased cows or entered pleasure in the afternoon. I also have a solid Paint mare who is most likely 95% QH, which is typical of Paints, and she looks like a racing type QH with a big hip, long legs. So how on earth would we provide inspection of these horses? There is no standard.
Any association that proliferates breeding genetically defective animals, HYPP, HERDA for example, is a registry of politicians, not horse people.
This AQHA thing. Well, it’s a stock horse thing. Noooo, it’s a Big Time Rich/Famous/Influential Breeder/Trainer thing.
I firmly believe that a LOT of crap studs get famous & win a lot because they are PROMOTED a lot. BIg glossy ads, fancy websites, beautiful farms with unusual amenities and client services to beat the band. Pretty stall decor at big shows.
I work in marketing, and believe me, MARKETING IS EVERYTHING. Marketing works best when you’ve got a great product, authentically yet attractively represented, but failing that, people are SUCKERS for gimmicks.
Gimmicks include pretty coat colors, long wavy manes, a cute name, fancy head, a disposition so calm that a child can ride the horse bridleless…. etc etc etc. The most financially successful trainers and breeders (NOTE that I didn’t say “best”) are the masterful marketers and client caretakers. Not only are we suckers for gimmicks, but we also LOVE value-added anything, even if it’s only perceived value-added.
And then there are the BYBs. They’re susceptible, too. I grew up with parents who didn’t hide the truth, and they taught me to THINK for myself. My liberal arts education only furthered this. I was lucky – I keep coming across grownups who CANNOT EVER be wrong, even when the evidence is overwhelming. I come across people who won’t ever compromise, though it’s usually the only way to effectively get shit done. I come across people who are just ignorant stubborn rednecks, and LIKE it that way. THey are the kind who won’t go to a church if there’s too much teachin’ and not enough preachin’. It’s THEIR WAY or the HIGH WAY, baby, and they firmly believe the American myth that whatever you do is A-OK because there is always a happy ending.
These are the people who breed craptastic horses because it’s “their right.” THey don’t want to learn anything. They don’t want to study bloodlines. They just want to make a fast buck, and who cares about the pathetic horses littering their backtrail?
I hate bulldozer people.
Might be a lot of promoting, but if you have a pretty as hell stallion who is TRULY pretty and you can put a kid on him safely? Well that’s more reason to breed than having points,earnings,and trophies if your horse is mean and ugly.
BTW: If anyone NEEDS any of those fancy, glossy ads done for a lot less than $300, I do graphic design and stud fliers for only $30 a design. In my opinion they aren’t worth a few hundred. It’s just paper. Along with doing graphic design, and websites and so forth and caring for my farms ( average of) 9 stallions I’ve came across part of this being true.
But as I’ve said before, I’ve seen some downright GORGEOUS family horses, that just happen to have good bloodlines, and got the good side of the gene pool and good conformation,and are nice temperament, and so forth but just aren’t shown. I would sooner breed to a horse of high quality that looks like it COULD produce a winning foal, than I would breed to a horse who has actually won, if he himself looks like crap and acts like crap.
Just because a horse has a pretty head & flashy color and someone’s good at putting a fake tail on him doesn’t mean he’s breeding quality, or that he can even perform adequately.
Just because a stallion is gentle enough for a kid to ride doesn’t make him breeding quality.
Quit underselling yourself as a graphic designer: it will bite you in the butt someday. Remember that you have skills not everybody’s got (like a good horse trainer) and you should charge fair rates. “Fair rates” vary wildly according to clientele and region of the country, but don’t cheapen your work by charging much less than the local going rate. Unless, of course, your work IS amateurish. I have no idea, so don’t think I’m trying to insult you personally.
I agree with all of this, but wanted to address the “local going rate.”
The local going rate is whatever gets you the most money. 10 clients at $30 is $300 more money than zero clients at $300. For a new artist or designer, free now may mean contacts down the road.
Incidentally, I don’t know what the going rate is where you are, but around here it’s $30/hr for a moderately skilled designer and $50/hr for a decently skilled one. I can’t picture a flyer like that taking more than an hour, much less 10 hours, which makes $300 outlandishly overpriced. Can’t imagine those asking that price often get it.
Kind of like a fancy but do-nothing stallion can sometimes demand a stupidly marked up stud fee because he’s got “bloodlines.”
I wouldn’t charge $300 for a one-page, one-side design either. More like $75 – $100, esp. if you have to do custom typography, fancy stuff to the photo and be the liaison with the printer.
But $30 for anything more than a bare-bones template-driven piece is not doing you any favors in the long run.
Drives me nuts when businesses won’t pay more than $50 for a logo.
Great topic! I have 2 QH’s and 1 paint. I’ll admit, I’m a sucker for color. And it has burned me and I have been blessed by it at the same time. My paint is a mess. I get endless compliments on her color…..bay tovero with one blue eye and when she’s clean (I do stress WHEN) she sparkles and glows. In the right light, you can see her dapples all over her rump. Her papers are pretty terrible, but I fell in love when I saw her. I still love the monster, when she’s not trying to toss me out of the saddle. I got lucky with my buckskin gelding…..he is foundation bred, the right way. Previous owner showed him quite successfully in halter, showmanship, WP, trail, and a bit of hunt seat. I chase cows with him.
My 3rd was truly a blessing. I had purchased a breeding to SBR Formula One and ended up holding onto to it because of some financial things that had come up. A friend of ours that was breeding reining half arabs, offered me a stout poco bueno broodie that they decided not to keep in their program anymore. She was perfect cross for SBR, and conformationally….how QH’s should be. Her whole pregnancy everyone kept asking me what color I wanted. Since the mare was a bay I kept saying that’s what I would probably get…..SBR is a ‘dunskin’ but I didn’t think I would get that lucky. I ended up with the prettiest dunskin filly I have ever laid eyes on (so I may be a tiny bit partial lol). She is just turning 1.5….built like a mack truck with the most gorgeous neck and head. Not to mention personality and trainability. She never ceases to amaze me. Would I have been happy with her being bay? Hells yes. I don’t think this girl could’ve been the WRONG color. Her color is icing on the cake, and damn….is it some GOOOOOOOOD cake. 
I am not a QH/or any stock type horse fan, although I appreciate a good horse of any breed – Sheltand to Shire.
While I cringe at your BY breeder fugly photos, I am even more horrified at some of the BN stallions I see at QH Congress or in the breed journals – the massive ones with foreams and gaskins as wide as my Arab’s necks. Other than standing still and looking pretty (to some people’s eyes), what else can these creatures do? Couldn’t catch a cow to save their lives. I always find it funny/sad to read ads where someone bolding announces that “This one can also ride!”, like most of their other horses are built so they can’t ride. So, while we make fun of some of the backyard produced horses, I am not impressed by alot of what the BN’s are producing either. But, as long as they are rewarded in the show ring, they will be continued to be produced. And, even when they do get a good one, they are riding them at 18 months, have them in the show pen at 2, and retired lame at 6. What a shame.
You are describing halter horses. They are not representatives of all QH, nor are they considered fine examples of anything but halter horses. They are a type, our breeds within the breed if you will. There are stock horse types, rail types, race types and so on. They are expected to do something other than stand and sprout muscles.
Not defending, just explaining..
Great post.
You know, I’ve always wondered why I’d run into horses where the owner goes on an on about “He’s a Such-And-Such grandson” but the horse was nothing but a pretty face with horrible conformation.
I completely agree that this is the wrong approach to take. I just didn’t realize it was so incentivized by the AQHA (I’ll admit I’m pretty ignorant to breed registries). We want people to think long and hard about the best matches for their mares to produce the highest quality foals who are more likely to be “winners” instead of just encouraging stud owners to throw some seed out there and hope the aggregate of the animals produced will win some money! (and ignore the ones headed for slaughter)
I have no patience for the irresponsible overbreeding of poor quality animals. We have enough “companion quality” horses in this country!
When I am wishing for some quality control and say conformation needs to become an important factor I am not talking about pretty.
If a horse can do it’s job, in a QH way, then it can’t be deformed, ugly maybe, but not weak-legged, ewe necked, severely ANYTHNG.
When you look at Foundation QH many of them may look ugly today, but they weren’t looked at that way then. The job was important and good bone and legs, a compact body, speed and lateral agility were what counted. I’d like to see it again.
I like the look of cow horses, but they often suffer from birdy bones, lack of size, and some crazy temperaments. This could be fixed in a few generations, but won’t be, because if you add bone, size and sense you will get a less than desirable run.
I had a trainer buddy tell me once, “The reason the Foundation lines faded from style is because they were slow and ugly. Let them be what they’re supposed to be, a foundation.”
There’s some truth there, but I’d take some ugly if it got me good bone and practicality.
Here’s where I have to argue with you. Have you SEEN half the NFQHA stuff out there? It’s not what you just described. It’s long backed and straight shouldered. That’s why I’ve criticized it so harshly. It’s not going to be, athletically speaking, good for a damn thing.
And yeah, roan mare with upright shoulder and no neck should be, in trailerspeak, spaded ASAP.
I’m not talking about the Fugly Foundations, anymore than the Fugly current stock. I can’t help but think if there was a criteria for registration beyond papers what’s left of the good Foundation stock would be brought back to improve what’s left of the current stock…..
THIS: http://www.onlyequus.com/breeds/american-quarter-horse/ I miss him.
He’s not like an extreme chunky Foundation fugly, but he’s not a post-legged lanky TB looking critter, either. He’s got a very balanced, yet muscled look. LOOK at those hindquarters. He looks like a great all-rounder. He kind of looks like an Australian Stock Horse, ha ha.
That horse looks quick, smart and I can’t imagine jacking his head down to his knees.
Note the length of tail and mane. Just right.
This is a gelding sired by my stud out of a “Smart” mare. He’s long in the back, has a bump between his eyes, but is as ‘foundationy’ as they come. Great mind, big bones, super quiet and personable. He’s comfortable (long back advantage), slow legged and trainable. He prefers to plod along but is starting to turn around with a bit of life and has a strong, built-in rollback and natural lead change. What I like about him is that he will settle down fast after doing maneuvers that require speed. He’s not much, but I like him.
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac163/blondemare/Horses%20Horses%20Horse/Moonshine2010.jpg
I like him too, and would not be ashamed to have him in my pasture!
We must have similar taste as I have two tuxedo kitties too!
I also have two tuxies—Ryan is the kitty in my avatar. Born in ‘da hood to be pitbull bait, but got rescued
I like this post and I agree, AQHA is a joke now. It is the largest registry in the US and still they get greedy.
1. Register everything.
2. That’s not enough, let’s take out the color restrictions and well, register everything. Now there is no difference between Paint and QH except Tobiano variations.
3. Our halter horses can’t ride, so let’s put in “Performance Halter.” WTF is that? Oh, what it should have been in the first place. What happened to Halter being about the breed standard? Oh, right, they don’t have one anymore.
4. Register everything, then promote the renewal of horse slaughter in the US.
My only disagreement is that I see nothing wrong with valuing the offspring of a stallion. Personally, I want to know that the stallion produces good foals. Often the best TB stallions don’t produce as many money earners as their less earning sons produce. I’ve very often seen that ‘skipping a generation’ thing in all breeds. I would rather breed to a stallion that produces than a stallion that won a ton. However, Paint ranks stallions on the points of the offspring, only they, stupidly as well, use total points so since everything now days (performance) is either a Zippos Sensation or an All Time Fancy, AND those stallions are from the age of AI, of course their foals are going to have the most points.
I feel the same way!!!
I try to have horses that can DO something not just have so and so on their papers. I have to admit bloodlines do have an effect but I DON’T care if your have a dash for cash granddaughter that resembles a mule and can’t outrun a turtle, DO NOT allow her to produce anything besides a pile of manure.
I get asked alot about my show mare in my area b/c her dad is a bigger roping horse stud from a well known “cowboy” and she is the “last” filly out of him and she is “pretty palomino just like her dad”. I roll my eyes, ya she competes well in Halter, Western Pleasure, and overall a good all-around show mount for what I like to do. Ya she is good looking no BIG flaws just a nice looking mare who can work. Although she has circuit champ awards in Halter.. I’m not a super fan of her chest, neck tie in, and she lacks less hip muscle(naturally) than I like so why should I breed her? Because no one needs another Laci (Sorry Girl) No one needs another palomino who goes back to jackie bee and impressive… no one needs another “pretty palomino like her dad” she will never rope a cow like her dad she will move along the rail in a nice slow natural way that has taken years to develop, and honestly I like her too much to risk having a Flunker foal. Yes even nice mare and studs (clears throat and stares at her flunk filly… a smart lil lena and adios amigos granddaughter) There are far too many Nice horses out there who can do something.
Word to the wise.
If you have a nice horse talk about what they can do! What they have accomplished not just that they have blah blah in their bloodlines or they are so-in-so’s half brothers, grandson. I hate when I talk to “horse” people and all I hear is this b.s. this translates to me as “my horse has done nothing exciting to say of so I will fill my pockets with the idea that the achievements of other horse people have effected, in a positive way, the existence of my critter,” Truthfully the breeders of your horse’s famous relative would probably NOT be impressed or thankful you included THEIR horse and hard work into your conversation as a selling point that your “donkey butted yak” shares DNA with THEIR horse.
Here is a pic of my lil mare, love her to death but I don”t need ten of her. One will do.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=288260169178&l=5482967f5c
^… hopefully that works.
NICE JOB on this one, Mugs! Not that I haven’t enjoyed your other posts, too, but this is a topic that you are obviously extremely passionate/knowledgeable about and one in which many here can also have a say. QHs are not “my” breed, but as a horse person I take an interest in everything horsey that goes on, so I certainly have made observations and formed opinions.
I think we ALL agree that QHs are massively and irresponsibly overbred. TBs follow close behind, but the almighty “America’s Horse” definitely leads the pack. If you aren’t absolutely sure, just take a look at the most vocal proponents of “bring back slaughter, it’s killed the horse market.” Let’s see, it would be the Montana senator who just tried to get funding for USDA inspectors put back in a bill. Don’t think there’s a helluva lot of TBs or Pasos or Dutch Warmbloods being churned out in Montana.
Cattypex, I am 100% on board with your observations about marketing. YES, it’s a self-fulfilling prophesy: you are a wealthy breeder/trainer, you have a foal with hot bloodlines, you promote the shit out of it, you show it from infancy into the ground (but only ’til it’s 3) and it wins because you know all the judges, and voila razzle-dazzle geewhiz bang, another stallion hits the market. “Oh, I wanna breed to THAT stud, he’s owned by a Famous Football Player* and he’s related to PocoSkipChocolateDee and he’s a pretty color and it’s a beautiful ad and their barn is so nice so he MUST BE GOOD!!!!” Never mind that the thing carries a dangerous genetic disorder, has feet so tiny and pasterns so upright it will be crippled by five, and can’t lope its way out of a paper bag.
What sucks about this system is that someone can have a truly Really Nice Horse, with great conformation, a stellar temperament, a fabulous mind who moves like a dream, and it will not pass along it’s genuinely great genes because nobody will know it exists. If I was in the market for a Quarter Horse I would exhaust myself looking for a horse/out of horses like that.
* (Forgot my asterik topic)
You KNOW who I’m talking about. My friend is an airline pilot, and had the misfortune of flying the former Steeler across country one time. He was seated in First Class and managed to make a total nuisance of himself, verbally abuse the flight attendants and generally act like an asshole. I was very disappointed to hear this as I grew up with a Steeler-worshipping dad and thought he was wonderful… so much for that. I would NEVER buy one of his horses and not just because a bunch of them are HYPP-positive.
I ran across an acquaintence who had an excellent correct Cremello AQHA stallion in NC. His owners were of course willing to breed him to anyone with the cash for the stud fee ($300). I tried to tell them that their horse could actually be much more valuable if they worked with him and showed him under saddle. Their response “He’s cremello, so we don’t need to show. People will just come to breed colored babies.” This poor Stallion was only let out of his 8×12 stall about twice a week to handgraze despite my pleas for better treatment. Thankfully he was sold to another farm-hopefully to someone who would use him for his full potential instead of just a baby machine. He of course fathered 6 colts out of stunted grade mares purchased at auction before he was sold.
Rant on sister! Although you are ranting to the choir here. Although QHs are not my breed of choice, I do really like a good one. Too bad that is getting harder to find.
I have a friend with an absolutely gorgeous halter mare…just what you WISH AQHA would breed more of, gorgeous shoulder, hip, beautiful pasterns, big feet, classic head. And at least 3 or 4 of us are on her Facebook having to beg her not to breed this mare to an N/H. I do…not…get…it. I like to win, everybody likes to win, but there are world class N/N stallions out there!
I went baby hunting last year after my mare died of colic. I was amazed about the horrible fugly babies that people were trying to sell me and my dad. (Most were either some crazy paint color or dun) I live in a small town but there are lots and lots of horses there. We visited several places where the babies looked horrible. Most of the ones we looked at were 1-3 year old and all were registered but most were hideous. The place we ended up getting my colt from had 3 babes.(1 yearling, 1 two, and 1 three years) He was very responsible with his breeding and only had babies that he was sure would be good since they would have his brand on them.
The colt we ended up getting is a hancock bred chestnut colt. I was able to ride his sire and full 3 year old brother and they were awesome. He is super smart. I’m actually running out of things to teach him. He learns everything within a couple of days. I didn’t care if my horse is registered or not, all i want is good conformation and smarts, but I understand the appeal of saying your horse is registered with whatever regestry I’m all for super selective breeding and Im sure my boyfriend is tired of me making fun of all the fugly horses when we drive around.
The same thing happens when you show with AQHA, the trainers walk to the gate of the ring with the 5 year old girl they are training who has never ridden the horse before but the judge will place her well because he doesn’t want to make the well-known trainer mad. It urks me….
I am by no means a conformation expert, but those pictures just made me go: GAWD!
The first is so butt high I can only imagine that if I tried to ride I’d spend half the time falling onto his neck. But then it just kept getting scarier and scarier.
The Shining Spark granddaughter… I’ve seen better looking camels, honestly…
The last one, well… I’m having a hard time understanding if it’s a case of rider too big or if the horse just stopped growing at some point (especially his front end). Please tell me it’s a gelding…
I have a couple of stallions. I have and will be showing them in our regions upcoming show season. I will not however, be promoting them. No ads, nothing posted at the local feed or tack stores…If someone sees them in the ring and likes them- they will seek us out. If there is any interest- the boys will be chatted up for their achievements. As they should be.
My boys are shown and handled just like any other horses- mares or geldings. I always keep in mind that they are stallions, but have had to take very few precautions because they are so well behaved and know what is expected of them. Not all of them are. I have also had a few people object to me not being able to show them in certain classes solely because they are stallions. Usually followed by- “But your boys are so quiet!” I’m good with that.
OMG! You mean you actually teach your stallions some manners instead of treating them like they’re oh-so-spesshul because they still have their balls intact and you might hurt their stallionhood if you try to discipline them? *end sarcasm
Niennor:
Farrier just left. You would have LOL. He is a Quarter Horse man. We of course have Arabs. Farrier had just come from the neighbor down the road, who has one of our mares. A daughter of our stallion. He was laughing in the barn as our stallion stood quietly, licking the back of his (the farrier) neck. His remark was ” I wouldn’t let Just any stallion do this, but since it is Cajon, it’s okay. Stallion is 15 or 16, has impecable manners. He has a show record as well as working cow horse training on 2003. He was the backup horse for a trainer who had a three state working ranch horse (QH) champion on a three week cattle drive. The other ranchers had never seen an Arabian, let alone a stallion working cattle with a Working Ranch trainer. He was a lot smaller than that rach champion, but did his fair share. Cajon was bred in July for the first time in five years. Still has the manners to never, ever need a whip. He is totally voice trained and knows the behavior that is expected with or with out a mare present. The mare was a registered paint a friend was given and as is par for getting one for free the mare has some serious breeding issues, but she will have a future as a riding and driving prospect for her new owners.
Some of the remarks earlier by Twiggy, Cattypex and Mugly made me check to see if we were talking AQHA or BN trends in the Arab world. Same song different verse…
We have Crabbett lines. That pretty much says it all as far as Arabian breeding goes. NOt the fad/flavor of the BN of the month. Can you say ummm not the popular flavor? Crabbett has been long known for the Sport Horse type of movment, working cattle and general all around substance and bone along with disposition. Family oriented horses. (Yes there are main ring types, but not as often and they are special!) We have one Crabbett mare who is 15.2 and easily 1100 pounds, that the QH farrier has always liked as she is solid substance and work eithics. We got her because she was “too ugly” for the farm who owned her (DID NOT BREED her, she was on the side of a mare they bought for upgrading bone & substance). We got her after she had been on the market four years, dropped in price and was used as a school horse by all of the apprenticies “when they could catch her”, the trainer would not ride this mare, but had a 16 year old boy and the other apprentices ride her. We took her to a show record up to an including qualifing for US and Sport Horse nationals in three-four shows.) I had a work related injury and she was not ridden in five years. Was pulled out of a corral, shod and ridden twice before going on a very long trail ride X2. NEVER turned a hair and was a model of perfect trail horse behavior and work ethics. Go anywhere at the touch of the reins, because you “asked”. (She had been marketed as an endurance prospect and I had to pay for two seperate vet checks when we bought her. One for performance prospect and one for breeding prospect). Which is more than I can say for the sale-barn/rescues that the folks I went riding with had.
I think that there are small groups of folks in all breeds who manage to keep their lines clean, pure and to the “standard” out of love for their specific breed. Some of the nicest QHs I ever saw were on a working ranch in Nebraska a long time ago. They were all foundation lines with a drop-dead gorgous Leo son as their herd stallion. These were not the prettiest headed horses, but they could work! Our Crabbet Arabs also go back to a working ranch in Nebraska, Rush Creek Land and Cattle. Not the most popular show ring lines, but solid working stock. Shailimr, Brown Ranch and Al Marah come in there too. If you talk about Crabbet. Solidly working ranches!
OT: Why would you have a combination of breeds? Friesian-Paso-Gypsy-Andalusion? Inquiring minds want to know…. FYI these horses are not to my knowlege in the western line. I am not sure that they are bred to each other, just all at the same farm.
Enough for now, JMHO
LOL! Your farrier sounds like a keeper! One of my boys is an Arab stallion. The first time our current farrier worked on him, I stood holding the rope, leaning on the rail, sipping my morning coffee. When he had finished trimming the front feet and was about to start on the back end, I asked him if he wished all Arab stallions he worked on were this quiet. The horse hadn’t moved and inch, only lifted his feet as asked, no muss, no fuss. The farrier looked at me like I was nuts, then he looked under the horse FOR his nuts, then looked at me and said “I wish they were ALL this quiet! Mares, stallions or geldings alike.”
When he recently worked on another one of the stallions, again, he had to ask if it was a stallion?
HAHAHA! Licking the farrier’s neck! That’s not something you don’t see every day!
Most of the horses from the barn where I ride (lessons horses and privately owned) are well behaved. Some of them will have their bratty moments, but nothing that a tug on the lead rope or a smack in the nose won’t fix. They stand fairly quiet for the farrier. So much that I’m pretty confident to walk past them without fear of being kicked (it is quite a narrow barn aisle). But a horse that licks the farrier’s neck, that’s one to remember…
FYI: Here (Portugal) stallions do not get any special treatment because they still havetheir balls intact. They are expected to behave around mares and humans as any gelding would. So I really don’t understand how some horse owners think it’as acceptable for stallions to have no manners.
“OT: Why would you have a combination of breeds? Friesian-Paso-Gypsy-Andalusion? Inquiring minds want to know…. FYI these horses are not to my knowlege in the western line. I am not sure that they are bred to each other, just all at the same farm.”
Sheesh! You scared me there for a moment, I thought they were actualling purposely trying to breed all those horses together! Then, again, you never know…
And when did Gypsies become a breed anyway? They are colored cobs, so basically any draft with pinto markings can be a Gypsy…
I know, right? When our boys mess up and get in trouble though, and it happens from time to time, they know the punishment will be quick, fair and over. Once in a while one of them will pout about it, but the next time around, they know they had better mind their manners.
I have a fuzzy teenage memory of some cowboy-type telling me about the breeding of a weanling, yearling and 2-year old he was trying to sell. He used the descriptive term of “sisters or brothers in blood to (Hot Performing Horse).” The three young horses all had the same sire and dam. Cowboy owned the mare and was working where the stallion was sanding at stud.
I was smart enough to know that the sire and dam of what he was selling were not “Famous Horse A” and Famous Performing Mare, who was “a full daughter of Famous Horse B out of a mare by Famous Horse C.”
He went on to explain that the sire of his three equines for sale was a full brother to Famous Horse A and the dam of his foals was a full sister to noted Performance Mare A. In people terms, a pair of brothers (same parents but one brother became Famous Horse A and the other Some Unproven Horse) were mated to a pair of sisters (same parents, one sister being Famous Performing Mare and the other sister being the cowboy’s pretty and usable mare). In horse terms, it meant (according to the cowboy) his three young horses were just as good as any foal by Famous Horse A and Famous Performing Mare.
Back then it may have been some form of Doc Bar or Three Bars envy, I can remember the names Leo, Vandy, King and Three Bars being thrown around a lot in the conversation but 30+ years out I cannot remember the specific equines involved. Nowadays this would be called line breeding I think.
One of the things I find irritating in the horse world is that. Full brother to ________ or half sister to _______ which somehow means “this horse” will be just as good, so they command an exhorbitant amount for an untried yearling based on the performance of a full or half sibling. What one sibling does, may not begin to come close to what one of their brothers or sisters accomplishes in life. Things are different all around. Even full brothers and full sisters have different talents. They may not all get the same chances in life, have the same trainer or get along well with that person anyways.
Ah, one of my biggest pet peeves! It makes me crazy to read ads that say “So-And-So ‘on her papers’” especially when advertising an AQHA! Do I really care who is listed on the far right of the pedigree on those papers?! If there’s nothing to brag about in between, NO! ApHC papers are a little better since they only go out to the grandsire/granddam, but still, if that’s the best thing your horse has going for it, I’m not impressed. I once looked at a 2yr old AQHA filly who was “a Freckles Playboy.” I made sure to clarify that she was a direct daughter. “Oh, yes.” Uh, no. Freckles Playboy was just off the papers!
I once saw where someone had taken the top 20 ApHC leading performance sires list and redid it by quality rather than quantity (ie. comparing TOTAL # of offspring with point earners rather than just total point earners). I liked that version much better! I think of that when I analyze the NRCHA/NRHA/NCHA leading sires lists.
I admit that I do drop names when advertising my horses. Good breeding is important to me but is has to be up close. My stallion is a “son of” a really nice stallion whose foals are not flooding the market. I am currently not breeding with my stallion because I can’t afford a mare of the quality I want. I’d rather wait, enjoy riding my stallion and his foals I own, and pick up on a mare that really fits my program when she comes along.
It also bugs me when someone crosses a halter horse with a performance horse and then pushes to sell the foal in the discipline of one of the parents before it’s born or developed enough to tell what it will be like. For example: Crossing a halter mare with a reining stallion and trying to sell the foal as a reiner. Will it be a reiner? Maybe. Will it be a halter horse? Maybe. More than likely, it will be a nice trail horse/all around horse who doesn’t excel in reining or halter. Now I know that there are lots of combinations of disciplines/styles but some work better than others. I crossed my working cow bred stallion on a daughter of a leading stakes sire in hopes of a barrel prospect. I got a great foal who grew up to be a super barrel prospect (currently in training with his new owner). I got lucky and ended up with the best of both worlds. And a horse who is a little scary to ride because he’s so darned quick and fast! Did I keep the mare and breed her 10 years straight? No. I don’t need 10 scary fast horses who love to run barrels!
Thanks for a post that’s near and dear to my heart!
This appears to be a prime example of today’s topic. Look at that back!
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/grd/2590134760.html
Wait, I think I finally get it! People are dead set on breeding horses with long back because they’re trying to create the ultimate breed: the Limousine horse
I entertained myself by reading the copy of this ad before looking at the photos. When I did, I could not believe my eyes. The seller has to have described a different horse!! I am NOT a Western rider, but for crying out loud, even *I* can tell that thing does NOT have a “cowy build,” is not remotely “built to the hilt,” and most definitely is not “stout and strong.” That person is on crack if they think that weedy, spotted long-legged Dachshund is any of those things!
(And way to go cleaning Mr. Not A Cow Horse up before taking pictures. Idiot.)
The integrity of the QH is all but gone because there is no longer a breed standard or ideal. Breeders have no guidelines and nothing to breed toward except breeding for a prospect that will excel in a specific event. (Where the money is).
Back in the day (60s, 70s), the QH was the ultimate in versatility. That is what the breed was all about. Those are the horses I was raised around. The main criteria was speed (and still should be, imo); without speed, there is no versatility. The QH reached its peak of excellence when the breed ideal was the AAA-AQHA Champion, and the Supreme Champion. That was the ideal QH – a horse that can run fast, work a cow, win a pleasure class, and look good enough to win a halter class. That was versatility at its finest, and those were correct, good looking horses. Those horses are why the QH became the most popular breed. And it wasn’t hard to identify a QH as such.
Specialization has all but ruined this once viable breed, all in the name of breeding for a horse that can do only one thing well. In breeding for that horse that excels in only one discipline, the important attributes of speed, correct conformation and a steady disposition have been ignored. People are now satisfied with less than ideal conformation if the horse can win in the event it was bred for. If that horse can’t win, it’s pretty much useless for any other discipline. With the exception of the timed events, speed has been all but bred out of the QHs, and with it, the integrity of the breed.
The linebreeding that came with specialization is what brought genetic defects to the surface. Those flaws would have never appeared in an atmosphere of breeding toward a breed standard/ideal. HERDA was never an issue until breeders started duplicating the ancestors that carried it. HYPP should have been eradicated in one generation once it was determined where it came from. It is still easily avoided if you’re not specializing in halter. Impressive wasn’t a poorly-bred horse. In fact, he was from the best bloodlines that made the QH what it once was – Three Bars and Leo. He just happened to possess a certain type and a genetic defect that “helped” his specialized halter descendants win; therefore, that bloodline was perpetuated.
One other thing that will help reduce the numbers of crappy quality QHs – AQHA needs to raise the registration fees, at least to the level the Jockey Club has set for registering TBs. If a QH breeder has to pay $200+ to register a $200 colt, maybe they would think twice about propagating mediocrity.
To address the downhill issue – Nearly every stock horse is “downhill” when correctly measured at the spine, not croup to wither. Being downhill is a conformation trait that comes from the speed these horses used to be known for. Check out the conformation of the Quarter running horses out there today and you’ll see downhill conformation. It means fast. http://www.stallionesearch.com is a good place to evaluate the conformation of those horses.
To address pedigree – Breeding by pedigree has never been the best way to produce a good horse. The individual quality of a horse must be selected for first. The quality pedigree will be there on those good horses. Pedigree was never a guarantee of quality, especially when we know that at least 50% of the horses from any given bloodline aren’t breeding quality.
Until people realize what the QH was bred to be, do, and look like, and then breed toward that standard and ideal, nothing is ever going to change.
b b b b but aren’t quarter horses supposed to be over 16 hands, with a long thin neck, babydoll head and go sloooooow ?
*snort*
Sometimes I think the Australian Stock Horse looks more like a QH than your avg. WC Pleasure horse….
I wish I could argue with thi. I, too, am an avid fan of Quarter Horses. Reiners and Barrel Racers to be specific.
My own horse is the product of “backyard breeding.” Excpet his bloodlines aren’t actually bad, but the reason he was produced is because they wanted a baby. They had admiring a local stallion for quite some time, and by golly they owned a mare! So why not!
It’s just a big coincidence that he turned out as nice as he did.
Big surprise: as soon as he was born, they realized they didn’t know anything about babies. So they decided to turn a blind eye and forget about him. They paid his board, and fed him a horrible amount of treats, but that’s it. They didn’t even want him turned out, just left in his stall for weeks at a time,thus why he is now a cribber. Stall cleaners felt bad for him so they halter broke him and taught him to lead.
3 years later I bought him as a 0 muscle, unbroke, registration “pending,” ill-mannered, complete jerk of a colt. Honestly, the only reason I bought him is because I knew his sire VERY well (took lessons and board at the same barn he’s standing at). I also knew one of his half-brothers who was an extremely accomplished barrel horse, and I wanted to do the same with this colt.
Needless to say, it was a long road. He turned out to be an amazing barrel racer, except for the fact that he has no desire to run. So I scrapped his barrel racing plans and made him a reiner. At 6 years old, I was taking lessons with a multi world champion reiner who appraised my UNREGISTERED horse at 10k. I trained this horse in everything I could think of. Just goes to show, it’s not color, not *always* bloodlines, and not *always* papers that make a horse valuable. it’s just plain old attention that can secure a horse’s fate.
The biggest reason I hate AQHA right now is the price of registering a horse over the age of 3. Both of my horse’s parents are AQHA, but they want me to fork over over a thousand bucks for a couple peices of paper. Granted, I’ll probably do it once I have the money saved up. But it still doesn’t make it right. If I had to sell him in an emergency, there are so many people who would overlook him because of the papers, and that scares me to death.
>>The biggest reason I hate AQHA right now is the price of registering a horse over the age of 3. Both of my horse’s parents are AQHA, but they want me to fork over over a thousand bucks for a couple peices of paper. Granted, I’ll probably do it once I have the money saved up. But it still doesn’t make it right. If I had to sell him in an emergency, there are so many people who would overlook him because of the papers, and that scares me to death. <<
In an effort to save face after taking a big hit in Public Relations department for supporting slaughter, the AQHA has indeffinately lowered the rates to register horses such as yours. $300, plus DNA testing is a big difference and one that may be more attainable by owners who have found themselves in a similar predicament. You may check into this and from my understanding, they may even take payments. Just won't release the papers until paid in full, but he's on the books and on the way to becoming legit.
~sighs~ Remember me telling you I was coerced into buying my Arab? It was my 1st horse and we drove 4 hrs one way ( our truck and trailer driver didn’t know it was that far) to this little bitty town to a backyard breeders farm. Kaileigh was Ch Khem Kolleen a 6yr Khemosabi bred mare advertised as 15hh bred to an appendix qh (Boston Mac bred) because she wanted a baby. Yeah right. But I got her cause ” she’s Khemosabi bred, he just died” and ” we drove all the way here, you better get this horse”. I really lucked out. She’s pretty conformationally correct, classic head, sweet disposition. Her colt was pretty sweet too when we got that genetic club foot (stallion) fixed. No wonder they showed the stud in boots and splints. They were breeding him to mares with color cause he threw color every time bred to a colored mare.
Yuck!
Anyways…..Crappy breeding is everywhere. Arabs, Morgans, saddlebreds, all look alike. Nothing is versatile anymore. Breeding for color? Look at a black Arab. It could have 5 legs and 3 ears. But it’s BLACK!!’
If that didn’t make sense, I am at work typing on my phone.
Love how you love your Special Girl Woodrow’sMommy!
Also love hearing from the responsible mare owners. Like SnarkyRider said, “Just because it has a uterus..”
I swear we could Fix every horse problem in the US if we could just figure out how to get our hands on some Secret Gov’t Slush Fund. We have the smarts, we have the heart, we just lack the funding!
I think the aim should always be to breed primarily for the purpose of the animal doing a practical job, rather than just “to be” or “to be a registered member of the breed”. That means I tend to favour a “type”, rather than a breed. I’m English, and for me that type is usually a hack or hunter, bred to have a sound mind and confirmation. Colour and ancestry irrelevant. (It seems to me, going by adverts for horses for sale, that breed and colour are in general less important here in England than in the USA.) Presumably the quarter horse also started as a type rather than a breed, but its original purpose is being lost, or corrupted by show standards that were started with the best of intentions but which have lost their way. The same thing has happened with a lot of dog breeds, with the result that the healthiest dogs are often either mongrels or those breeds which are closest to their working roots.
Humans can screw up anything. The creation of any “registry” of animals which relies only on ancestry and imposes no requirement for quality or ability to do the job will always end up in humans screwing up the animals concerned. And there will always be enough humans who think registrability is enough of an value in itself to keep the system going.
Here is a good example of what I think quarter horses should look like and move like :www.northstarlivestock.com.
Their videos show beautiful natural movement, and demonstrate the range of training the horse has.
I don’t own one of their horse yet, but hope to by next year.
I do window shop the site pretty regularly, when I need a “dose”.
Canada has a terrible (and deserved) reputation in terms of horse slaughter. I am glad we also seem to have a few good quarter horse breeders too.
Those are some gorgeous sturdy horses! Wow. They look like they could do a week’s work, go to a rodeo on Saturday, and clean up for a show on Sunday. It does look like they have a tendency to be long backed, which I’m not a big fan of, and there are a number of butt-high adults, but they’ve all got fabulous shoulders and (as far as I can tell) straight legs. Major cudos to them.
Hi All,
Something very bad is hapening here in Germany , and I would like to share my story so this never happens to someone else , and in hopes that someone might be able to help me . A woman in Germany is buying low grade horse , claiming that they are for her child to start riding , or showing. I sold her my AMHA mare for a very low price , as the mare was never going to be bred , or sold , and was going to a loving home for her little girl to love and show. My mare is very kind , gentile , well trained , and easy for children , she also has a bilaterial stiffle issue , and is not in my oppinion suitable for breeding. A verbal agreement was made on the non breeding , and a contract was made that she would never be able to sell the horse except back to me for the same price she paid ….is was stated so that she knew this horse was not given to her to make money from. The contract was written in German and translated by her …
The translation was different then what she wrote : ( however the part that she can not sell the horse is there. I found out yesterday that she is an embrio harvester….. She has offered to harvest my mares embrios to a friend that made a call to check up on the horse. I had no idea that embrio harvesting was available , I had no idea that it would be considered on a cute little kids pony.I also learned that there is no child, no intrest in showing , no love ….everything was a well thoughtout lie- plan Is there anyone that knows the slightest bit about this practice? Fortunatly I found out before she could take in a friends mare for training , as she is doing this unknowlingly to horses borded there. If a contract states clearly that the buyer can NOT sell the horse would that include its body parts too ? anyone that sells a horse , please add embrio harvesting to their contract … learn from me , and pray for me , as tomorrow morning i will try to reason with this kook and offer once more to pay double the money for my mares.
I know I was describing halter horses….I guess my point was, if you breed a horse only intended for halter, if it washes out of the show pen, it could be facing a pretty bleak future. For me, I just don’t see the point of breeding a “stander” instead of one who can fall back on other talents – giving it more appeal to a wider market – with hopes of a long and successful carrer in another discipline.
Inspections have their pro’s and cons, like any other testing process. An example; I had the chance to observe a handful of Friesian keurings a couple years ago, and it was quite an interesting watch. Many Friesian owners are taken only by size, color and the amount of hair a Friesian has, and neglect to look at the ABFP charts for their sires and the quality of offspring. So there were many owners present at the keurings who quickly became unhappy when the judges took their horses apart and pointed out why they were not Ster quality. Owners need to be familiar with what rigid inspections actually require of a horse and handler and to have realistic expectations for the age and quality of the horse they’re presenting. I think this shows respect for the breed and the individuals judging the animals. On the flip side, a registry needs to make available to owners information like this and be honest about the quality of their touted stallions (and mares).
There are some respected individuals I’ve met and worked for, not naming names, who would say that small, closed registries, FHANA among them, may not be the best at promoting quality, since many stallion owners sit on the board and appear to be interested more in making money through quantity. The same people I have heard these opinions from also add that many of the approved Friesian stallions available in the US may be very nice horses themselves, but the documentation of their offspring shows that they may not necessarily throw that quality. The potential for inbreeding and mismatching mares to stallions because of the small gene pool in Friesians also add more odds for disaster, unfortunately. Friesian owners, vets and handlers are hitting only the tip of the iceberg on the genetic problems and what they could lead to in the future. I’ve found, unfortunately, that the majority of Friesian mare owners and potential breeders have rarely or never heard of ABFP charts or investigated the documentation of offspring quality that deeply.
My point being, a relatively closed and small registry can have huge downsides in terms of politics and powerful people being close to each other and unwilling to point out potential and even fatal flaws in their horses. I’ve personally witnessed the politics of registries kicking out superb horses simply because they were not fond of the owner. While I know it’s a vague claim, it’s very often a reality and the gene pool ends up missing the loss the most.
Objective and educated people need to head the registries and not close their doors to anyone who is not “in” the circle. As one can imagine, this could lead to some serious problems that aren’t limited to just the genetics of the horse.
Stepping down from that flame-inviting soapbox, I agree that the AQHA could really do with inspections. I would just hate to see it turn into the clusterfuck that the American WB inspections are, or see politics potentially tear it apart and defeat the whole purpose.
Hardly. Many cattle ranches have the same bloodlines. It’s not quite as easy as you think. It’s not a paycheck either, I’m just lucky enough to be involved there for other reasons, aside from the owner.
It’s funny that you don’t know my situation but you assume you know so much. Nothing I’ve said has been copyright or in any way could get me sued. I’m doing more good by being there than I would be being away and am obviously in no position to start my own place. Why don’t you move on? I’m sure we’d all love to start our own business. I’ve been asked for certain reasons which I am leaving out. I haven’t mentioned names or shown pictures which is basically all that’s been asked of me. I’m allowed to tell a generalized story just as social workers or doctors do. I know a few of both. Cases are often over generalized and written about for medical reasons or for case reasons. Often names are left out ,and if names are mentioned, then the personal story is discarded. It’s on a case by case basis, a farm which you can not at all relate to a hospital, abuse, domestic or otherwise. I wasn’t trying to gossip or mud-sling as much as I was showing an example, close to home, which I relate to. I have a place there. If I really wanted to I’d just out all that I know and ruin the name itself.
You are either very young or very naive.
Hope that all works out the way you think it will. I think you are going to be mad when it doesn’t.
“Butt ugly as a bulldog chewing gum”…..
Jeez, give us a little warning! I just snorted Coke outta my nose!
This is unrelated to QHs but breeding-related all the same — I bought a one-day research pass into the online archives of the American Saddlebred Horse Association (ASHA.net) and have answered all the questions I had. If anyone would like some information concerning a registered American Saddlebred, reply here or email me at camilledbyrd@gmail.com within 24 hours!
On the topic of color. My mother-in-law is getting a mare for free, on the condition a cremello mare goes with her. The mare she wants is 25 and is basically being taken for a retirement home and is in great health despite her age. The cremello however, is about 6-7 years old and has 2 club feet and is blind. She is going to have her put down when she gets them unless she finds someone interested. She can’t afford to have the farrier out every two weeks to get her comfortable, and she was born this way so I’m sure arthritis is more than likely. So, are there farrier schools in PA that would take such a case for educating students, or is putting her down the best option?
Fugly, can you shoot me an email? The director of a horse rescue is guilty of doing just this only using rescue funds to care for her 20 or so horses. It has been going on for far to long and she needs to be shut down.
LOL to all of you calling for AQHA inspections. Where do you think the Foundation registries horse year cut off is? The original registry HAD inspections – your horse had to have a once over before it got a number. There were A, B and C grade horses, with the “bulldog” types as As and the “racing” types as Cs. The two inspectors had their favorite types, the registry was growing crazy big and the TB blood was bankrolling the organization that was supposed to be preserving the Steel Dusts. The A types were outvoted, the grading system dropped, and now even Appendix isn’t a big deal. This argument and the problems of having both of these kinds of people butting heads in the same association is actually older than the AQHA itself. NFQHA Article on the first 27,000
I’ve often toyed with what a stock horse association inspection process should look like, and how to reward training over breeding. First, in my registry, any healthy horse of our general type can get a number to get points, go to shows, participate in association events… anything but breeding. I’m far more interested in maintaining our type than someone’s log book of horse lines, and I want all of “our” horses in our events regardless of where they started or who was lazy about their paperwork. We’d also agree on our flagship events that test and flatter our favored type, so we’d all know the standard we’re looking for. TBs run, Clydesdales pull, WBs jump, we rein or cut or whatever. There would be a testing process for breeding stock. They would need at least one full year under saddle after their 3rd birthday, proven by participating in registry approved events and shows over a 365+ day period. Then they’d get inspected at a halter/trail type event for any major temperament or conformational defects and if passed they get breeding papers. This goes for mares as well, and the ones that are registered as non-breeders could get special perks. Then there would be a restriction on the number of breeding stallions allowed per season based on the number of horses/stallions in the registry and bloodline popularity (so we’d never have a ton of studs from the same lines breeding at the same time, keep our coefficeint of inbreeding down) and from some sort of voting or lotto system they’d get ok’d for a season pass. Or maybe just for the first year or three years, and then they can get a permanent pass if their babies are desired by the registry. There would also be a cap on the number of foals allowed per year per stallion, but we’d allow ARTs. If your foal’s parents has passed our inspections you’d get discounts on registry things like registration, and if they pass our one year under saddle thing the breeder and foal owner would get perks. Our horses would get */+/:) all over the place for having trained babies. Three, five, ten, etc years under saddle would get recognized, and we’d applaud trainers and owners for staying in the game along with the long time breeders. If you’ve been training and showing our breed for ten years, that’s a big deal! Maybe subsidised show fees or discounted health plans? The AQHA has one, so we would too. It’s a work in progress, but there’s got to be ways to reward a decent range of a functional type so there is some choice for buyers and breeders without becoming a hydra of World Show classes like the AQHA.
look at this cute little treasure of a stallion.
http://i53.tinypic.com/28miyvn.jpg
AQHA will register any parrot mouthed, long backed, crooked legged, dink and I have told them so on more than one occasion. I advised them to come DO AN INSPECTION on my colt to see what it is that I am breeding for and WHY everyone should be held to a standard. They don’t like me very much anymore, and I can say the same in return.