Sometimes it pays to be late…
Aug 27 2011
I had a chance to ride today so I nabbed it. My post was only 3/4 of the way done, give or take a word or two.
When it comes to my current personal life, a few precious hours on the backs of my horses of my horses is not to be missed so off I went. It’s a good thing too, because this train of thought just can’t wait, I have to share.
While I was there I visited with the owner of our barn, a rancher, a long time roper and a fairly recent BO. His son-in-law works out of the place and has a solid business going, training colts and rope horses. He’s been a World Champion twice, so he’s no slouch.
My daughter has recently started riding colts for them and then was given the opportunity to begin training on a young filly which was written off as “worthless,” “crazy,” and of course, “stupid.”
The filly is cutting and race bred and belongs to an elderly man who is a long time cutter. I have to learn more about this guy, but I guess he knows more about cutting bloodlines from the Foundation QH on up than anybody my daughter has ever met.
She’s about half in love with the guy even though he’s in his 80′s and she’s not quite 21.
Here’s the thing. These guys are everything this blog likes to leap on, jumping and screaming bloody murder. They are old school, hard-core cowboys. They throw their colts, tarp them, tie their legs up and on and on. It’s standard procedure to buck them out and wet saddle blankets are the cure for everything.
They don’t care what lead they’re on as long as they get to their cow. Collection involves a mechanical hackamore and a tie down, and it’s not called collection, it’s called “getting their butt under them.”
Horses are their business, not their babies.
At the same time, the horses are all healthy, well fed, friendly and extremely well trained. They don’t have the dull eyed look so many show horses get, they don’t have vices or ulcers, most of them are happy in their work.
I’ve been quietly watching and keeping my mouth shut. There’s something to be learned here, probably a lot, and flapping my righteous yap at them is not going to give me a chance to learn.
Those of you who have been reading me for the last few years over on the other side of the street know I am a big believer in watching and understanding a training situation before I make a decision about the right or wrong of it.
When I wanted to learned how to build a reined cow horse I went to the best trainer I knew. He became my mentor and friend and eventually I worked for, then with, him. He also had training practices which completely freaked me out.
Horses were kept in box stalls with no turn-out, ever. They stood tied in the sun, rain, wind and cold for hours. A warm-up entailed going straight to loping and a circle was never perfect enough. He was hard on those horses. I would have said the hardest I’ve ever seen, but since then I’ve seen much worse.
I watched, studied, asked questions and always tried to grasp his concepts, then figure a way to get the same without the harsh methods I considered cruel.
I’ve done things I’m not proud of, but at the time made sense. As I became a better trainer I was able to drop what I felt wrong and still get the results I wanted. I learned a lot from seeing and doing things wrong and I learned a bunch by seeing and doing things right.
There are many who think I’m amoral, have no spine, am wishy washy, a coward, cruel, and so on. It will be interesting to hear from you and see where we land with each other as time goes on.
My daughter is much like me, but more vocal, more insistent on doing what she knows is right. It makes me proud, especially since she grew up watching me work in silence. She also grew up as my travelling and barn buddy and heard and watched me work out many training solutions which got results without pain or anxiety.
The BO came over to visit a little while we rode today.
“That girl of yours is sure doing a good job over at Jack’s.”
“Great,” I said. “She thinks the world of him and she just loves that filly.”
“We knew that crazy thing needed either to be trained by a woman or go for meat,” BO said. “She was here for two months and we never got anywhere with her.”
I have to break in here, my daughter is developing her own way with a horse, but she learned to handle a youngster from me. I don’t have a system, I don’t play games or wave wands, but I watch and listen to everybody who comes my way and have figured some things out. So where BO got this “needs to be trained by a woman,” thing is beyond me. It was pretty funny though.
“She’s a good hand,” I told him.
“Jack says he just loves watching her work, he’s never seen anything like it.”
So there’s my excitement. We don’t yell, we don’t jump up and down, we even make friends and respect a group of good old boys. These guys don’t want to whisper to anything but a good looking girl, and that’s after they’ve knocked back a few.
If you ask our BO about Parelli he’ll say, “Isn’t that the guy the boarders like to watch on RFD?”
He thinks of Parelli as nothing more than some guy who teaches women who can’t ride, that they don’t have to learn, as long as they buy his tapes. He doesn’t disapprove, just dismisses him.
He’s fascinated with what my kidlet is up to though. His son-in-law asked if I’d help him with lead changes. These guys aren’t threatened by us and our “woman method,” they’re interested. They are watching our reasonable, gentle and non-intimidating approach to training and they’re intrigued.
If you ask me it’s a pretty good start.
106 comments to “Sometimes it pays to be late…”
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Not surprised that there are no comments yet. Not a whole lot to comment on. Glad your so called ‘kidlet’ is feeling her way, but, hey if all is well in your world, that’s very nice. Just not very interesting.
I do wish you all the best writing for this blog, but so far, it is no more interesting than the almanac entries that I and my husband write to remind ourselves when we bought hay, fencing supplies etc. Yawn.
I think you miss Cathy. I do too. @#$#&**!!!!! and $%#^&*@!! There, feel better now?
Welcome New Fugly! Great post today. I have to say, I agree with your idea of watching and learning before you condemn. A real horseman will learn something from nearly everyone, even if it’s something little or something not to do. Doesn’t mean you have to agree 100% with everyone. But if you ran screaming and threatening up to your BO where would that have gotten you, or more importantly, the horses? Nowhere, that’s were. Now this filly is being trained gently by your daughter, and the boys are taking notice. How many future so-called stupid crazy horses are going to be better off because they may have had a lightbulb go off in their heads after seeing your daughter’s training methods.
That’s not to say you should clam up when you see real cruelty and neglect. But sometime thoughtful observation goes a long way.
No amount of swearing could breathe life into this blog entry. Yawn. Fence sitting in an article on an abusive old cowboy and how he is drooling over your 21 year old daughter is not doing it for me. This blog should not be used to blow sunshine up your ass on how wonderful a mom you were to your ‘kidlet’. I am deleting this from my favorites.
Ahhh…c’mon, without comments like this one there won’t be anyone to argue with.
Yay! You’re officially Mugly.
I personally loved your post and can totally identify with it. For some strange reason I can’t log in to the blog from my home computer so couldn’t post Saturday. Kudos to you for teaching your daughter how to effectively train horses in a confident, non-abusive manner. I was out of horses for 25 years and got back in as a 40-something adult almost five years ago and man let me tell you, it has been an upward learning curve ever since.
When I got back in, I boarded at an old cowboy type’s place and as time went on I started to realize something wasn’t right. I started to research training methods and read the Parelli book (UGH that was an aweful read!!!). Then I moved on to Clinton Anderson and John Lyons but could never really try any of the methods while at that barn because of the control freak owner whose methods were the only right ones. I did start to see a stark contrast though in my horses and his; mine who wanted to please me and his who were terrified to upset him. If he ever handled my horses they were a nervous wreck. He used to switch up their stall placings constantly and then beat them with a dressage whip when they went into the wrong stall, well duh! The only reason I stayed there was because we were working on our property and had a few months to go before it would be ready in addition to the fact that there are few boarding places in my area. After my mare foaled and I witnessed the indifference to her care by him, that was the straw. Forgetting to give her hay, not keeping her water buckets cleaned and filled, not allowing her and the foal to have turn out in a bigger pen may seem small to some but to me if you can treat a baby like that, you are a POS in my book. I had found a place between my house and our property that had some openings and moved them as soon as possible. The difference in my horses was immediately better. Even though he had limited interaction with them, the environment there was very stressful and they were afraid of him. Now they have been with me on my property for two years and it is very calm and relaxed.
I can hardly stand to be in the presence of that man after the way he treated my horses. One thing I will say though is this, from my own personal observation a lot of these old cowboy types have some good tools and methods but they are often applied too severely or not timely. One thing this guy was good at was taking dangerous horses and making them rideable again. He used practices that are questionable to me but he got results. So far I have not had any need for those methods and can’t see that I ever will.
What I wouldn’t give to not only be raised by someone like you who uses non agrresive training methods, but to have the opportunity your daughter has right now. What a lucky girl!
I personally loved reading this post Muggs,It was very thought provoking.
We need more of that these days, especially in the horse world.
I didn’t find your blog entry boring at all. It was thoughtful and shared a real success story — getting some old timey cowboys to consider new fangled training methods. You can catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar. I, for one, appreciate the calmer tone you’re bringing to the blog. Constant flaming anger gets exhausting. It’s very effective in instigating change in lots of cases, but it’s not the only way to do it.
Interesting post. I just finished reading a book “They Always Talked About Horses”, by Homer Ayers (1898-1992). Mr Ayers describes the old methods of “Sock the spurs in and buck ‘em out”, but he and the horsemen of his day that he admired, tried to understand how horses thought. He lived long enough to read “the best book he ever read on the subject”, “Vaqueros and Buckaroos”, by Arnold Rojas. The vaqueros started their colts in rope hackamores as did Mr Ayers. “Good” horses were 100 milers. And a good hand all ways fed his horse. Could you imagine asking our horses today to be 100 milers? Times surely have changed.
Some do, look at the top endurance horses….you just added to my reading list Thank you!!!!
You’re welcome! Mr Ayers book I purchased a few years ago in South Dakota. Finally got around to reading it and enjoyed the ‘window’ to those times in history. A book worthy of footnotes. Did my own research on things Mr Ayers mentions, and he was spot on in his facts. Written from a time when there were ‘government remount buyers’ and free range ‘slick’ colts a plenty. When the government would loan you a Thoroughbred stud to cross on the range horses to improve your stock. Enjoyable and insightful reading for a person who knows horses. A non-horseperson might be lost in the horse jargon. LOL
well gotta say I agree and disagree, theres a balance to be struck between the good ol’ cowboy way-tried and true, albeit brutal at times, and some of our more civilised ways. Weve come a long way to understanding our partnerships with horses otherwise you wouldnt be seeing the Olympic quality rides we have today. That being said, a horse will always be happier with being worked hard than being idle, so Im not surprised that these ranch raised hardworking strictly handled horses have a happier demeaner than our pampered show horses. A horse is after all a working animal, and if you cant get out to ride it almost everyday then find someone to share it with you or sell it to someone who will.
“That being said, a horse will always be happier with being worked hard than being idle, so Im not surprised that these ranch raised hardworking strictly handled horses have a happier demeaner than our pampered show horses.”
LOL! Tell that to one of my 2-year-old colts who is in training right now. I think horses are like people and have different personalities. His dam was exactly the same way which tells me it isn’t due to lack of working or discipline but he inherited her temperament. By contrast, my other 2-year-old colt who is very well bred and hails from some of the best reining and cutting lines has a very good work ethic and is doing quite well. I had had both types of horses; ones who are happy and ready to go to work and others who would rather not.
And sometimes it depends on the day. I know horses who’s work ethic is temperature-dependent…I’ve also known good horses lose their work ethic after another horse in the barn dies (they grieve just as much as we do).
And I know one horse who has a great work ethic everywhere but the indoor arena…
Depends on what you call idle…or rather what the horse considers ‘idle’. In a ‘natural’ state horses are lazy, they move for survival reasons, eating and not being eaten and getting to water. Well, a few young ones may play or the stallions fight but the herd will hardly leave a good grazing area or water.
There are also habitual, they fit themselves to our schedules and for the most part get rewards for ‘working’ for us. They thrive on consistency. IMO a horses work ethic is developed by good horsemanship (in the broad sense). Sullen,sour,crabby horses are developed by bad horsemanship.
My horses come running when I call because I make sure to make it worth the effort, maybe just some scratching, or fly spray, or a little hay. They don’t come because they like me, they come because they like what I do for them.
I have one gelding that everyone sees as a ‘people’ horse, he’ll hang around people rather than his herd mates, well sure, he is the very bottom of the pecking order and people don’t bite, kick and chase him.
Overall I think an animal develops behaviors based on it’s experiences…good and bad just as humans do.
I respectfully disagree with your assessment on what creates a good work ethic, at least in part. I do believe it can be manmade and I also believe horses have different temperaments just like people and some are made that way. I have owned all kinds of horses and have experienced both sides.
Is compliaince and trainability really a sign of a good horse? look at Ian Miller’s Big Ben he was a stinker to train. And why should any 2 year old colt have to work hard? If your complaining about your 2 year old having a poor work ethic, than thats just silly thats a smarter horse of the 2 of your colts IMO.
He’s actually 2.5 and he has a quirky temperament just like his dam. I don’t know about you but I would much rather work with a horse who is happy and willing to please than one who you have to struggle with. That doesn’t mean the horse with a good work ethic is any less smart. There are tons of horses out there who possess less talent but have a heart to please and have been very successful, even more so than a smart horse who doesn’t want to work and learn. I’ll take the happy, willing horse everyday!
Thats a GREAT GREAT GREAT start!! but I may sound stupid but whats a BO?
Barn Owner or Body Odor depending on how you feel about the person being discussed.
I haven’t followed the blog for several months, so imagine my surprise to find a new narrator. I have read a few post from the past few weeks and from what I’ve gathered – you’re in Colorado?
I grew up in Colorado and I’m pretty sure I know where you board your horses and who the old cuttin’ cowboy is you mentioned in this post. Small, small world.
Personally, I have met some good cowboys and some stupid ones.
For instance, I rescued my gelding off one of the ‘stupid’ cowboys I have met. He thought he was worthless, stupid, couldn’t be ridden blah, blah, blah. Well, he rides great for me! He’s probably the most, or certainly one of the most, trainable horses I have worked with. This guy was neglectful, treated his horses like crap and he would leave some of his horses without being ridden for a whole month, jump on them, take them for a long trail ride and then scream bloody murder if they misbehaved. I’m not talking about old bombproof horses, I’m talking about freshly broken ones. He also breeds unregistered crap and keeps his horses behind a barely standing barbed wire fence. What a winner. .
I bought my mare off another ‘cowboy’. He’s just fabulous – he treats his horses with respect, looks after them well, can train a horse properly (my mare is THE most bombproof horse I have ever been on) ect. We actually kept in touch after the sale – he even gave me a surcingle once, to go with my saddle. He called to see how she was going and he would drive past fairly regularly. We would always run into him at the horse auctions and you could just tell he had a way with horses and really knew what he was doing.
I might not have as much experience as some people, but I know when something feels right and when something doesn’t. My thoughts are that if I have to choose between getting results and putting the horse first, it will always be the horse – imagine if I pushed too hard to get results and something went wrong. I would feel like I had no soul and I would be miserable. I would rather just take things nice and slow and get results in my own way. Many ‘cowboys’ learnt that to break in a horse, you don’t have to ‘break’ them. Some didn’t. I think that’s where the good and bad comes in. I’m super glad my pop learnt that you didn’t have to do things the hard way to get a good horse – because he taught my mum, who taught me. I would much rather spend a few weeks getting them used to things than jump on and have them try to buck me off, lol.
http://www.operationhorserescue.blogspot.com
Your BO sounds a lot like my own friend and mentor — at least when it comes to Parelli! He’s seen too many women leave his barn saying $550 a month for trail training and board was too much…. only to come back a few months later with a Parelli halter and stick, and a pricey Parelli saddle in the trailer, much humbled through ‘lack of success’ and ready to pay Bob’s price! At that point, he’d make a judgement call and either take the horse, or not, depending on whether the human seemed ready to listen…. or how badly the horse needed him.
Here’s the difference, though — this man is one of the quietest I’ve seen, around a horse. WHile my two were boarded with him (he lives just 2 miles away) I spend most of a summer hanging out and riding out with him and his assistant, sometimes on my horses and sometimes on one of Bob’s. Or on a ‘training horse’ that needed some saddle time with a less-than-expert rider.
I’ve watched him spend an hour in a round pen, seemingly doing nothing….. But if you watch awhile, you’ll see subtle changes in the horse… softer… softer… softer… a change in posture… the dropping of a nose… and with each change, a near-silent ‘good boy/good girl’ and a stroking of the neck. He taught me that the simple stuff is paramount, focus and softness are essential… And that a horse will give you back tenfold whatever you offer it.
Want a horse to respect you? Respect the horse….. and part of respect is TEACHING and consistently maintaining your boundaries. Sometimes, it’s time to remember that while a human is on a horse’s back, it is not a democracy. Be kind..but be a LEADER, and a leader insists that boundaries be respected — and, like Rashid, this man’s ‘way’ is to be ‘soft as you CAN be, but loud as you need to be’.
Ask this man a question about training, or how to fix a ‘hole’ in your horse… how to teach it something new… he won’t give you a set of steps. He’ll say “Well….. it depends” So many times that is true, with a horse (and with humans) You gotta know your horse…. and have a whole bag of tricks so you can choose the ones that fit each situation. And sometimes, the solution comes from a ‘hunch’…. if nothing you’ve tried before works, try something else.
He’s semi retired now… and a long time ago he decided not to be ‘famous’. Won’t show.. hates what they do to the horses in nearly every area, just to be ‘competitive’. Did clinics all over the area… but didn’t tell anybody about it except the people who’d asked him to come do a clinic. But I bet that among the HORSES (they talk about us, ya know…. Ha!) his ‘name’ is well known, and that he is raised to the level of angels or legends among them.
True and sustainable changes happens one connection at a time. It spreads out quietly and almost unnoticed. One mind influences another, who influence another, and so on…..
“We don’t yell, we don’t jump up and down, we even make friends and respect a group of good old boys. These guys don’t want to whisper to anything but a good looking girl, and that’s after they’ve knocked back a few.” This is a wonderful insight, while you may not agree with someone else, to know them is to understand them. It sounds like this respectful approach has opened the eyes of some old timers and saved one filly from the meat truck. Way to go!
Thank you for your balanced stance on all this. I was mighty tired of Fugs 1.0′s hysterical reactions and having my middle of the road observations deleted. I was especially cross with her denial by deletion that, in some cases of abuse and neglect, there was serious mental heath concerns with the individuals involved. So here is a topic for further discussion….. How do we actually help when we see someone who owns a horse who is struggling with depression, bipolar or schizophrenia? Or should we condemn them for being ill and isolate them further? Surely public castigation is no solution and only adds to that individual’s huge problem. Are we here to help or part of the problem?
I don’t think your position is valid. This isn’t a mental health blog. This is a horse blog. While having mental health issues might indeed be an excuse for having neglected horses, it does not immediately follow that it’s okay to neglect horses if you have a mental health problem. In other words, this blog historically has taken the stance of saving horses from abuse. I’m pretty sure there are blogs out there that want to help and save mentally ill people– should we go rant if they don’t blather on about saving horses?
Using your logic, we should forgive the gentlemen or ladies who routinely mutilate or try to copulate with horses and other animals, because they have a mental issue. Where do you suggest drawing the line?
Society as a whole can NOT look at skinny, sick, neglected animals (OR children!) and say, “Oh well, Momma is a bit off her rocker, so it’s okay.” In our community we had a set of twins who were mentally unstable. Officers had to go in periodically and remove scores of animals that the ladies had ‘rescued’, because they weren’t capable of caring for themselves, let alone animals. While I’m sorry that they had this problem, I should note that it never occurred to me that it was okay for them to have animals, when they are unable to care for them.
And FYI, you can not force an adult to ‘get help’ unless they are harming themselves or others. Even then it’s impossible to maintain that help for any length of time. There is nothing in there about animal abuse– just human. So unless these people are prosecuted for animal abuse, they are going to be allowed to repeat the destructive cycle over and over again, which doesn’t help them, OR the animals, or society.
I am so confused…..
The fact that someone is ill themselves does not mean that if their animals are suffering, that they should not be removed. People can ask for help. Animals can’t. And I don’t feel that personal issues- mental, emotional, or otherwise- are an excuse for abusing animals.
I may pity the person’s circumstances, but that won’t stop me from calling on them if they are starving or abusing their animals. Period. I hope they get better in the meanwhile, but not at the expense of the animals.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I never saw Fugly 1.0 ever deny that someone might be mentally ill in a lot of the hoarding and mistreatment cases. It just wasn’t an excuse, which is a position that I agree with completely.
I am still confused…
Charm and I were both addressing Thistledown1′s comments about theoretical mental illness on the part of animal hoarders or abusers meaning they should receive different/more tolerant responses.
I don’t think Thistledown1 was trying to suggest that people with mental illness should “receive different/more tolerant responses” if they’re neglecting or abusing their animals. I think she was trying to suggest that cases involving mental illness need careful handling (while still protecting the animals), and tried to start a conversation on what that approach should look like. She does have a valid point that while a public thrashing might be appropriate for someone who neglects their animals out of laziness or greed, it’s probably not the best way to reform someone who does the same out of mental illness. She’s not suggesting that they should get to keep their animals, though.
Thistledown, please correct me if I’ve misunderstood!
Mental illness cases are meant to be handled by experts in mental illness, not animal control people or rescuers. To all intents and purposes, a neglectful owner is a neglectful owner. Do you think the horse cares if he’s not being fed due to laziness or greed vs. not being fed due to mental illness? I don’t.
Unless you are an expert in the field of psychiatry, I doubt most rescuers are going to be able to determine if an owner is cruel or ill, and I don’t think they should have to. Even if the person refuses to get help for themselves, the animal needs it and should receive it.
To be honest, I never felt any of the public calling out here was beyond acceptable levels. People get passionate, and seeing cruelty excites both pity and anger. But the fact remains that it doesn’t matter why abuse is happening. It matters that it’s happening at all.
Would you hesitate to take the keys out of a drunk person’s hand just because it might embarrass them in front of their friends?
I hope that people involved in seizing animals and dealing with the aftermath can be sensitive to mental health issues but that said sensitivity doesn’t ever stand in the way of enforcing an animal’s right to adequate food, water, and shelter.
First of all, there was a air share of basket cases posting here and some even shouted personal insults at Cathy and the readers of this blog and she never deleted those comments, so I don’t believe she deleted YOURS either.
Second of all, pedophiles also suffer from a mental condition (at least some of them do), Does that mean we should let them rape children an not do ANYTHING about it and try to help the poor pedophiles because they are not sane? And how about serial killers? Do you think it’s OK to let psychopaths torture an murder people because they have a mental illness??
Oh, an by the way, I’ve suffer from chronic depression and just last year I had such a bad meltdown that I was afraid to leave the house for months, and yet I still managed to go out and take my dog for a walk!
Sorry about the poor spelling and grammar, I forgot to proof read after I finished my rant.
This blog really needs an ‘edit comments’ button…
I also do not believe that the posts were deleted, especially since I’ve raised the subject of mental illness myself and had a respectful conversation with Cathy about it. She and I don’t always agree, about both mental and physical illness, but we do agree that SOMEONE has to advocate for the horse, who cannot be his own advocate. As I understand her, she takes the position that there are plenty of people who are doctors and shrinks and lawyers and social workers looking out for the interests of human beings, and that’s fine, but that’s not her field of interest. Her field of interest is to worry about the horses.
It’s also worth mentioning that almost never do any of the abusers try to get out of their situations by admitting (or having lawyers who admit), “I’m ill and should never be allowed to own horses.” Instead they try to have the cake and eat it, by saying they are too mentally ill to be punished but not so mentally ill that they should be restricted in any way.
Hm. I’m going to address your comments line by line, I hope I’m understanding you correctly!
“I was especially cross with her denial by deletion that, in some cases of abuse and neglect, there was serious mental heath concerns with the individuals involved.”
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘denial by deletion’ – she really didn’t discuss mental health issues at all, true, but I think that’s because a) it’s outside her area of expertise and b) it’s not the focus of this blog. I do recall her saying a few times that hoarding is a mental issue, and such people really need help, but it didn’t lessen her anger at what the animals went through. It’s also worth noting that this blog was her place to rant – she presumably doesn’t scream and swear at people with mental illnesses in real life.
“So here is a topic for further discussion….. How do we actually help when we see someone who owns a horse who is struggling with depression, bipolar or schizophrenia?”
Good question. I’ve never faced that situation personally, but IMHO two things need to be considered: the well-being of the human and the well-being of the animal. I think the standards for removing an animal from a mentally ill owner should be the same as the standards for removing an animal from a mentally healthy owner. It’s not okay to let an animal suffer further because the owner’s ill. The approach to helping the owner before the situation deteriorates to that point will vary according to the situation, though. It might be worth giving the owner extra support, such as covering feeding without complaint when there are days that they just can’t get out of the house and to the barn.
There’s a fine line between helping and enabling, though. I know (this time from personal experience!) that it’s easy to slip into a ‘helpless victim’ mentality when fighting mental illness, and obviously enabling that isn’t a good thing. I’ve heard from a number of people that the responsibility of having an animal that they must care for, every day without fail, can be helpful in the fight to reclaim their life from the illness.
“Or should we condemn them for being ill and isolate them further? Surely public castigation is no solution and only adds to that individual’s huge problem.”
Of course condemning people for being ill doesn’t help and isn’t appropriate. However, if by ‘public castigation’ you mean getting featured on this blog for starving their horses, I still think that’s fair, even if the owner is mentally ill. Legally, people aren’t held accountable for their actions if they were so disturbed that they couldn’t understand right and wrong at the time the crime occurred. (It’s called the M’Naughten rule, and makes for some fascinating reading.) This doesn’t happen often, and if someone is truly ill enough to meet that definition they have bigger problems than this blog (and we’ll still all be pissed that the animals suffered). Anything less than that and they’re still responsible for their actions, mental illness or no.
Does that make sense? I’m not sure what Mugly’s take is on such situations, I’d be interested to hear what she has to say.
“So here is a topic for further discussion….. How do we actually help when we see someone who owns a horse who is struggling with depression, bipolar or schizophrenia?”
I realize you are addressing someone else’s question but this one caught my eye. What can you do legally or otherwise unless you are a family member? I know a lady who was buying up weanlings at auction horses every year. Most of them related in one way or another, and owned two stallions, one of whom was related to most of the weanlings. You can look at this situation and see a train wreck but as long as the horses have hay/grass and water, what can be done. It is her right to do this. No one knows if they are receiving any other care like shots, worming, regular trims, etc. as they are in the back of the property where no one can see them. I know one day this will becomea financial drain and can’t imagine the logistics of what it takes to properly care for 10 or morse horses financially and chore wise. I know what it takes for me to care for my four and that is my personal limit financially and chore wise. I can’t imagine anyone in their right mind taking on that much responsibility but it is their right as long as the horses have grass/hay and water.
What did you manage to get deleted? I’ve called Cathy everything but a child of God and she’s never deleted anything I said. She certainly wasn’t in the habit of deleting everyone who disagrees with her as you suggest.
“I’ve done things I’m not proud of, but at the time made sense. ”
I think most of us, or at least most of us over the age of 40 can say that. I like most of the old cowboys I’ve met. I don’t think most of them ever intend to be cruel, they’re just not wastin’ time. And I agree that there’s a lot of things we can learn from watching them, like, horses are a lot tougher than we give them credit for. Mentally and physically. A lot of the big name clinicians like Parelli talk about the “pressure and release” method of training, but their followers often don’t use enough pressure to get the results they want, and their “release” becomes meaningless. I’ve been guilty of that.
A few weeks ago, over on MW I asked you a question about getting a bit in my colt’s mouth. He’d been head shy for years, mainly because of medications I had to give him daily for weeks. He hated it, I ended up not being nice about it because it had to be done, it was life or death, and I wasn’t going to waste a lot of time. When it came time to put the bit in his mouth, he fought like it was life or death. I tried all kinds of NH techniques to relax him and get his mouth open. Then I asked you, and you said, get in there, stick your finger in his mouth and put the bit in there. If it doesn’t work, keep trying, don’t get mad, don’t talk to him and don’t say good boy until you’re done. I thought “darn, that’s what I was afraid of.” It wasn’t anything fancy or new, but it worked. Yeah, I got him upset, I got him mad, I didn’t feel like we had a special bond going, but I’m riding him in a bit now.
I like the idea of training horses in the gentlest way possible. I just won’t wait years for the horse to decide he wants to do something. I know I could have decided to ride in a sidepull or hackamore forever, but that’s not what I want to do. I’m beginning to accept that sometimes I’m going to get my horse mad or upset to get the job done. I’ll just have to deal with it.
I’m never going to agree with keeping horses in stalls all the time. That bothers me. Plus, who wants to clean up that much poop?
This is awesome. It’s EXACTLY how I’ve taught both of my youngsters to bit up, the older one that is no longer with me picks the bit up on her own EVERY time as long as it’s “her bit” (she’s a bit of a fussypants and likes only a few specific bits). The new guy just started picking the bit up on his own the other day, and I am thrilled. You have no idea the number of horses over the years, even expereinced schoolmasters don’t like to take the bit nicely I’ve come across – now I know I’m doing something right!
http://www.felixfjord.blogspot.com
I know what you mean. I used to be at a big hunter/jumper barn, there were dozens of veteran horses who wouldn’t take the bit politely. No one seemed to think it was important enough to address. But, before I owned a horse, I had leased two horses at a barn where they trained and showed cutting and reining horses. I leased a couple of older, retired mares, and they always put their heads down and opened their mouths for me. They did some other things that H/J horses didn’t do, like stand ground tied when I saddled them, pick their feet up for me before I asked. I have always expected those things from horses I’ve owned, and eventually I get it.
My horse isn’t opening his mouth for the bit yet, but he’s voluntarily putting his head down, and he doesn’t clench his jaw, he does a little chewing when I put the bit up to his mouth, and it doesn’t take much to open it. I’m happy. He’ll get there.
I had to retrain a feral/abused pony and the bit issue was huge for him. I rode him in a bosal for 6 months and gradually reintroduced a bit by smearing it with molasses and getting him to lick it. I’d bridle him and let him stand for a while with the molasses-smeared bit until eventually he stopped being worried about it.
He had lots of kinks to work out, but he was a really sweet little guy. We were both unhappy when my trainer/instructor decided that kicking him in the belly was the best way to teach him to stop puffing while being cinched. Another one of those horrible cowboy methods!
A couple years ago I rode a friend’s dad’s horse. My friend had no formal riding instruction, and the horses were all cowboy trained. She was shocked that I talked to the horses while riding and handling them, since she’d never seen anyone do that.
Your new barn and the barn I train out of sound very similar, just in different areas of the country. I keep my horses on private property, but there’s nothing like a roping pen for desensitizing colts, so I haul there on a regular basis and short-term board if needed. Some of the boarders are middle-aged women who follow Parelli or Clinton Anderson and yes, they are the ones who are not highly regarded in the barn — but they are also the ones whose horses have zero respect, will run you over in a stall, will run their owner over on a lunge line, etc — so, stereotype or learned expectation?
There are three trainers in the barn. Open the Superlooper magazine on any given month, you’re bound to see a picture of one of them. All three understand the function of the horse leaving the roping box on the correct lead; if he has to change to his left lead somewhere, it’s going to slow him down and potentially trip him up. One of my pet peeves is the way a horse is taught he’s supposed to be on his left lead — only work them left, rarely work them right. They’ve written off horses they “can’t get the buck out of” – without considering physical causes. One of the 3 trainers has owned a horse with a physical reason for bucking, and so he’s more apt to load the horse up, take him to the vet for xrays, and try to figure out reasons behind the behaviors. Horses that buck a lot and don’t figure out their supposed to quit within several rides; horses that learn to fight the bridle or try to kick – those are the ones that get laid down. There was a trainer in the 1800s who used this method for ‘training’ a wild horse – much as the “Horse Whisperer” book described – basically, you give the horse all the easy options, and if he’s still a raging a-hole likely to hurt you, you throw him, touch him all over while he’s down to show him how simple/tough life can be, let him up, get on and ride. I’ve seen it work, and I’ve seen it not work. The “work” much moreso than the “not work”. I think in the *right* situation with the *right* trainer, it needs to be a last-resort option.
As far as the tying legs up with ropes….I’ve seen a couple really bad wrecks in the roping pen because a horse freaks out when a rope gets under his tail, the roper accidentally ropes the horse’s leg and the horse freaks out — that’s a horse that was taught the rope makes a noise above his ear, then flies past his face, but he was probably never taught to hobble, stop and think if the rope catches a leg, stop if the rope flanks him or gets under his tail…..Now, I’m not saying there’s not a better method, but these guys are probably training colts for lots of other people and can’t take 30 days of someone’s time and money to do it in a calmer, gentler way — they have to show results — just like any other discipline where the trainer has to be able to go back to the owner and say, “He’ll walk, trot, lope and back without bucking in 30 days, and in 60 days, you’ll be able to track a cow and throw a rope off of him.”
When our guys train a rope horse, they know it’s going to take 6 months to a year, and they’ll usually buy colts as 3 or 4 year olds, train them, haul them for a year, then sell them. They usually don’t tie them up with ropes (the eldest trainer *might* but he’s almost retired and prefers to work the horses that are 60 to 90 days in, when the worst is out of them, and he doesn’t usually comment on the other guys’ methods unless asked to help with a specific problem; he’s in his 70s and everyone respects his opinion), but they do teach them to hobble, and they do the halter with long lead rope, turned out in the round pen or small arena, so the horse gets used to stopping from any pressure on his face and gets used to the feel of a rope bouncing on his legs.
But no, the horses are not “pets”, they are not “flowers and butterflies”, there are expectations that go along with a horse that’s born, bred and built to rope, and while these guys do have a certain “bond” with their horses – because they have to rely on them to do the right thing in the right moment – it’s certainly not the ‘relationship’ that a casual rider or a one-horse owner has with their horse. And that’s where someone like me – who trains a horse or two a month, might sell a horse or two a year, and cares about my horses as individuals – might ‘teach’ them something here and there just by DOING, rather than by mouthing off about the “right” way to handle a situation. I have a young horse that I’ve been on the fence about keeping or selling, and he’s for sale only to a 4H/kids home. Why? Because this horse needs a little girl to love, or I’ll keep him and show him myself. He’s almost “too” quiet for an adult and he was neglected as a colt, so he drinks up even the slightest attention and he needs a little extra care – I won’t let him go just anywhere. Then there’s my big red pasture pet, that I’ll end up keeping until a perfect companion home comes along or he’s just not comfortable enough to hang around anymore. The guys don’t get that; but I feel like part of owning and training is to do what’s best for those horses that cross your path, even if it’s not the simplest or most convenient or most financially intelligent thing to do.
“He’s fascinated with what my kidlet is up to though. His son-in-law asked if I’d help him with lead changes. These guys aren’t threatened by us and our “woman method,” they’re interested. They are watching our reasonable, gentle and non-intimidating approach to training and they’re intrigued.”
It’s great your daughter is doing what you taught her, many parents are proud of their children, and I think you think they’re intrigued. Hope you’re correct, hope your daughter doesn’t find reasons to become disillusioned, hope the son-in-law isn’t just looking for cheap help. I wouldn’t bet the farm just yet, I’d wait and see.
High Cotton. I have been around the block. I am not cheap help. My daughter has apprenticed under trainers other than me. She was the cheap help then, but that’s how it goes when you apprentice.We’ll be OK. Thanks for the warning though.
Thanks again for a balanced look at training “old and new”. I know from personal experience that actions speak waaaaaaay more than words ever will. The fact that you are not preaching and screaming and shoving your methods at them gives you way more credibility than if you were. Do what you do and pick your battles carefully and let your successes speak for you. If the horses look happy and healthy and are glad to be doing what they are doing then we have to take that into account and not form our opinions on what appears to be abusive training methods. Or abusive to our system of beliefs.
Being open minded is a great way to learn, either I could use that or there is no way I would touch that with a ten foot lunge whip!!! It’s when we close our minds that we seem to need to scream the loudest.
ack, I find it so hard to watch horses be stalled 24/7. With the (recently downgraded) tropical storm heading up here to Canada, the horses are all in, but my boss has an indoor arena, so we’re rotating them in turn out there, with hay and water.
On a different note, I went to a local show/agricultural expo yesterday and watched a local level western pleasure class. There was one gal in there who was on a pea rolling, shuffling qh, who was, nontheless, a nice horse, and there were others on nice horses who kept a low head and neck, but actually moved out, in a very collected manner, no jerking or shuffling. I thought to myself she’d have to win, since she was exemplifying the type I’ve seen winning that’ve been posted on here. She came last. A nice sorrel in a snaffle won. It was very heartening to see!
Kudos to that judge. Believe it or not, one of my colts actually has a naturally low headset and does that joggy shuffle naturally. I am struggling to tell the difference between his walk and his jog. He will move out but he is happiest shuffling around the arena with his head level. My trainer tells me every lesson, “there are people who would pay thousands to have that jog!” Some have it, some don’t.
Two things about these “good ole boys” should have sent me into a foaming rage, but they didn’t. The first is the “trained by a woman” comment, but for whatever reason I just shrugged my shoulders at it. Probably because the way you described the commenter and the words, I could tell there wasn’t any malice behind it. Good on ya’.
The second is the description of the training methods these guys use – and again, I didn’t even get upset. I should have, but I didn’t. I think what stopped me is your description of how the horses come out of the training – alive, confident, ready and willing to do their job and do it well. I also really like your take on watching the rough training – take what you can get out of it, and throw out what doesn’t make sense. I’m also proud of your daughter for making something out of a horse that had already been labeled as a throwaway – as I’m sure you are also immensely proud. 
What I have learned in my 40 years of riding and 35 years of training for other people is that “trained by a woman” isn’t really meant as a deragatory statement – the old cowboys I have trained for just meant that the colt needed a softer touch and that they didn’t take well to the man-handling. Some colts tend to be ultra sensitive – I have one of those of my own now, and we are definately on his time as far as his training schedule. He is way behind where I would normally expect him to be, and where his half-sister is, but he is coming around and neither of us has been injured or traumatized. He would not have done well if the cowboy I bought him from had kept him and trained him using his method, but he is slowly coming around for me as we work on his time frame. On the other hand, I have a couple colts who have responded well to the wet-saddle-blankets-fix-all-problems type training. I start all my colts under saddle in the round pen, and when they have a decent concept of “whoa”, we head for the hills where we work on everything else. Funny how this “new idea” is becoming all the rage in all the horse magazines and with clinicians on RFDTV, and yet, that is the way I learned to do things more than 30 years ago.
Yes! I have loved this exploration of the “gray” zones of training, because like in life, things are rarely black and white, unless there is much distortion going on. My trainer uses tiedown, or tie out to a post (yes sometimes in the sun) as “homework” for a difficult horse. I was initially horrified. He has a rational, that he cannot ride them enough hours to get them to focus. Or the issue maybe related to giving to the bit, which he feels they can learn without him being on their backs. Sometimes it is attitude, particularly attitude that endangers the rider. So the horse needs to learn to deal with anger, or resistance, without a rider being endangered. He thinks about everything from a horse’s point of view, and is rough and yells at the humans, not the horses. He thinks constantly about how to reach a difficult horse, and yet will send a horse home if he decides the horse is too dangerous to keep in his barn (rare, I have only heard him talk of this in the 3 years I have been going to the barn) or more commonly, he realizes the horse cannot be what the owner wants, and the owner’s limits on the training (30 days? 90?) will not achieve the desired outcome (bombproof, ride once a month backyard pony). He turns out trustworthy horses that are fun to ride, and still enjoy people. Having said that, I wonder. Does 4 hours of tie down give better results than 2? Or 1? He does watch these horses as he rides, so they are not abandoned, and he will rush to “rescue” if one does something really unusual, like trying to get its rear hoof caught in the bridle.(That one had anger issues.) I have learned to think and listen more, and cringe less, and most of all, to look at the results. I think I prefer the real world of working with horses, to the fictional world of dreamy sparkly unicorn-ponies that luv us for our mystical qualities, and therefore use ESP to do whatever we want, magically. I love real horses, manure, pissy attitude, and herd dynamics and all. Keep working that gray zone. It’s where most of us live.
I ride my purebred Arab in a halter, even when I endurance race. He was the favorite of the barn to turn out and bring in because he has impeccable ground manners. This seems to surprise so many people, for some reason… especially those “stock breed” riders.
So many times I’m asked what the “key” was/is. I tell them it’s simple, I gave him a set of rules and then expected him to follow them… and he does.
Back in the day, I used to retrain Arabs that had gone “bad”. After a while I realized it wasn’t the horses (they were fine when I hopped on them and explained the rules to them). The riders, however, were another story. It only took me a very short time to realize that I am not meant to be an instructor. Training, yes. I seem to speak horse-language just fine. People, not so much. For the most part they just don’t listen…
Life’s A Beach
http://36andsingle.blogspot.com/
I learned to train from good ol boys. Every year I went to the fairs, they would bring a pony or two that a youngster would be needed to ride. They looked to the future of horse training and wanted younsters interested. I was softer then alot of the boys. They would smile, and nod their heads, talking quietly together. Each season I would be invited back to the barns to help, not all the boys would be. I got the same results, usually with a quieter horse. I would spend the whole week that I was suppose to be working on my lamb, working out shetlands, ponies, and show horses. My dad thought showing horses was cruel. He never said why, just was against it. When I was a teen, I was invited to spend the summer working and training horses for one of the big ranches. My dad wouldn’t let me go. I was crushed. Fairs started closing their horse barns due to liabilities, and shows were one day events, so I lost touch.
I wanted to put in a comment as this topic is really part of my everyday life, (we are also darn near neighbors). I grew up in a competitive western show world with a good side of hunter and dressage training, so when we my mom remarried and we ended up on a NE cattle ranch things went a little topsy turvey for me. I took to it quickly, and it became my favorite thing in the whole world. So now I find myself married to a cattleman, and living the ranching life, which leaves me with no shortage of face time with “cowboys” and cowboys among the other folk (and plenty of clinic addicted NH probably shouldn’t own a horse types). I put these cowboys in two very distinct categories. While I learned that sometimes methods I feel are harsh are used by respectable cattlemen/horsemen, generally these guys are the best horse trainers (and owners) I know. I also found that the wave a stick, or stuff em with treats folks were making 1000# lap dog monsters. I started feeling that horses needed firm structure along with the praise and attention. Now for further definition of my “cowboys” and cowboys, I have known a lot of men that made their living off of cattle and horses in big country. They own the cattle they work or at least feel that while they work for a brand, they treat the cattle as their own. Cattle and horses are an expensive commodity, and they are not just commodities, they are a way of life and they are your business partners. If you step off your horse in the middle of 5,000 acres to check a fence, to look at a cow you have choked down, or even if you come off in an accident, a horse you have beaten/yanked the hell out of and rode hard put away wet isn’t likely to stick around, and thats a long walk or a wreck waiting to happen when you have a sick steer on the other end of your rope. Horses don’t work and cattle don’t perform nearly as well when they are handled roughly. When its your bottom line, you take the time to do it right. Then there are “cowboys”. These are the guys that probably have never worked for a decent outfit, or if they did they were the guy that had horses who acted up, quit or ran off. They wear boots, spurs, a hat, maybe a pair of chinks, and that makes everyone think they are genuine. There are FAR more guys that have never depended on a horse for a living than there are good cowboys. Like all training styles there are good and bad. But the good guys generally use methods I might call hard, but rarely take it to the level where they are doing permanent damage. I will admit I have seen great results from tying a horse for the majority of the day, and a lot of the other things mentioned here. I have never seen a horse thrown, tarped, and beaten that got much better. I have seen horses laid down that figured things out, and have used the technique myself. I do think eastern Colorado (especially east of Colorado Springs) is home to a lot of wannabe hacks, there aren’t many big ranches or cattlemen left out here. I usually keep my mouth shut on a lot of what I see. I am so glad you brought up the idea, because you might just learn something (a lot of times not). Sometimes I will see a purpose, sometimes I wont. I don’t speak up unless I feel it is necessary, or if I feel the person is open to input. And I know I don’t have all the answers, horses make you remain humble if you are honest. I don’t know more than I do know, but I like to think I have a good foundation.
I don’t think putting “cowboys” as the term and meaning both the slap and jab hacks and the real thing is any more fair than when people mention “breeders” when they are talking about someone who put an intact male in with mares and made little horses and the folks that thoughtfully bred quality animals. Go to a branding sometime, you can pick out the real cowboys in pretty short order, and I bet you be pleasantly surprised with the horsemen they are. PS-If you watch Parelli do some of his pasture cattle work after you see how the good outfits do it, you will have a good laugh. He is not in the real cowboy category as far as I am concerned.
Horses appreciate honesty. Old cowboy ways (in other words, my way or the highway) have existed and worked for thousands of years. A horse knows when a handler is being fair, and playing by the rules. Cowboys or any other horsepeople who play by the rules will get along fine with most horses. Yes, there are some horses that just can’t handle the lack of flexibility. There are sensitive horses, or stubborn horses, who fight hard when presented with a ‘do it or else’ situation.
What you have to remember is that certain types of riding require a certain type of equine personality. In the old days, cowboys could try out thirty head of horses. The ones that killed themselves, or couldn’t be broken, or didn’t have the mind for that type of handling ALSO generally weren’t the ones the cowboys wanted on the range, helping them out every day. It was all part of the selection process. Then, suddenly, you had some different types of competitions, and some different types of horses, and the question came up– what if we DIDN’T train that way? What if we actually put some thought into training, and tried things a bit differently?
I don’t know if the Dorrance brothers, or Ray Hunt, or Buck Brannaman, ever watched a woman working with a horse to get their ideas. Women tend to historically be less strong than men, so we traditionally try to work around a problem, instead of bulling ahead in the belief that might will win. Working around a problem means less conflict, and sometimes that gives us an edge when it comes to finding a solution, instead of forcing a solution. However, that’s all just a stereotype– I’ve known plenty of women who never tried to think through a problem, and plenty of men who were great thinkers, and would go a long way to avoid conflict. Who originally came up with these ideas? Probably someone thousands of years ago.
Cowboying isn’t the ‘old way’, and what we call ‘new’ natural horsemanship isn’t really new. The two methods exist side by side, all the time. Frankly, I think they always will. But if you, and your daughter, and various other riders continue to be effective using nonviolent techniques, eventually you will have some converts. You will also have people who NEVER get it, and that’s okay, because frankly, some people just can’t work around a problem. Whether it’s lack of brains, lack of vision, or surplus of power, some people are going to spend their lives running over other people (and horses), because they just can’t get there any other way.
I don’t understand where the rude comment at the beginning came from. I really enjoy your writing so far. You carry a didn’t flavor and voice than Kathy but it’s still relevant and good. Your post made the point . . . you don’t constantly have to be stirring up controversy to get healthy change in the horse world, be it training or breeding practices. Actions speak louder than words, for sure! Yes, neglect and abuse should be hollered at at times, but that’s not what you’re referring to here. Good post!
Well, I for one think you are doing a great job with the blog. Your are encouraging people to think, not just act by getting hysterical. Dont get me wrong, I loved Cathy and her writing, but I am pleased to see a different take on the same types of subjects (ie, “Cruel” or bad training) and have always appreciated your thoughtfulness before judging other people’s training styles. There will, of course, be naysayers here and those who will always be unhappy with the writer. But you know it comes with the territory. Keep up with the thought provoking, yet insightful posts to the workings of the horse industry. I think you are approaching these sensitive topics well.
I s’pose young horses are like kids – some of them THRIVE under rough & ready methods, tough love, ass whuppin’s, and seem to actually kind of LIKE it …. and some are highly sensitive, who would be soured or crushed under such treatment (yeah, I was a sensitive kid). Just like some horses do great living rough in a pasture & treated like cows, whereas others are hothouse flowers….
Remember the whole colt-breaking scene in My Friend Flicka (THE BOOK NOT THE EXECRABLE MOVIE), where the colt-breakers do their bucking out & such, but there’s one horse deemed unfit for that sort of training, and so “The Missus” is in charge of her, using more gentle and thoughtful methods?
I really like openmindedness. And there’s nothing… um… sexier…. than one of those thoughtful, quiet, patient cowboy trainers who always get the job done. I watched a young cowboy with a squirrely colt he was starting once. He put his foot in the stirrup and the horse was slightly freaked and would not stand still. So the kid just hopped along with the horse, quiet and implacable, for what seemed like forever. The horse finally accepted this, stood still, checked him out and relaxed – and that was the end of the lesson for that day.
Oh yeah. Quiet, gentle men make me go weak at the knees every time. It makes me wonder what it’d be like to have him touch *me* like that.
Me too LOL! I married one!
http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-460018
Epic Fail. For fun, watch the Youtube Video!!
~sidenote: What does happen when you try to pick up her BACK feet?~
Oh good! They let their barefoot daughter ride a yearling, while sad, sappy music plays in the background.
The man leading the colt is barefoot also. Perhaps it’s a matter of educational confusion? When they heard about barefoot riding, they thought it meant that the humans went without shoes?
And they have a union jack saddle pad!
What part of you DO NOT GET YOUR ASS ON TOP OF A COLT until he/she is at least 2 1/2 or 3 years old don’t these people get??? GAAAH!
Is it me, or is the filly lame in the left hind?
I don’t know, she’s gaited and anytime I say something about how a gaited horse is moving, I’m told that’s how they’re supposed to move. I just can’t see if they’re lame or not. I also can’t tell what their feet are doing when I’m on one. It freaks me out.
Nyah, ah, ah! (she says, while wringing her hands and squinting) you’ve successfully insinuated yourself into “enemy” territory; time to effect change. It’s standard Machiavellian maneuver: take over from within. However this is positive unlike bankers being assigned posts in the financial regulatory system.
When my boss said that a particular horse required a woman he meant it needed someone either persistent or stubborn depending on how you want to look at it.
I love this post! I have went to barns where the horses are respectful, have manners and enjoy their job! They are fed, happy and very well taken care of. But what I am seeing is the end result. What it takes to get there depends on the horse. While I don’t always have to agree with the trainers methods, I can at least watch and learn. Granted, of course, the trainer is not just beating the horses, then I couldn’t keep my mouth shut at that point.
Every horse needs it’s own training and not all training methods will work on every horse! A good trainer knows this! Sounds like your daughter is off to a good start.
I don’t believe that mental illness is an acceptable excuse for mistreating a dependent, whether human or animal. Of course people in that situation should be offered all reasonable assistance and support, but if they’re unable to care for their horses, then they need to give them up – that’s all there is to it. There’s a difference between publicly castigating someone for being bipolar or schizophrenic, and publicly castigating them for willfully choosing to inflict pain on helpless creatures rather than give them up. One could argue that that’s a symptom of the illness, but by that logic, it’s wrong to ever criticize anyone for even the most horrifying crimes against humans.
“She needed to be trained by a woman” I love these statements.
Not every trainer can agree on one certain training style, and really that’s a great thing. Not every horse learns the same….we need different techniques to be effective.
But after reading this, it really makes you see how much easier your life as a horseman can be if you will allow yourself to not be “right” all the time and expand your horizons and learn from everyone.
Example: I am only as aggressive with my horses as necessary. Which is very rarely. But we had one filly on the farm that after so many times of her rearing and striking, biting, kicking, and threatening behavior. Yep, we had to lay the little be-yotch down. Several times. We’d pin her down, touch her everywhere, and then go round pen the hiney off the little “princess”. It worked. I felt like a barbarian. But sometimes your inner ” hardcore cowboy” has to surface.
A horse is happier with a job to do, and someone who needs horses to get the job done often gives those horses a better life than they would have as someone’s pet.
I did my horsey growing up in a hunting and riding stables with an old-school owner who also dealt in horses, and I worked round the stables in return for riding. At the time it seemed pretty rough and ready: the owner bought cheaply, and only one horse in a decade arrived with a pedigree. Looking back, the horses were fit, well-fed, well-shod and routinely stayed in work into their twenties. Some of the horses were rescues, and those with lameness issues were used as trail horses on a beach, where the work was steady and the easy going kept them sound.
The horses were well-behaved too: I’ve been astonished at some of the behaviour from horses I’ve read about on this blog which seems to be treated as normal – I learnt to expect any horse not to kick or bite, not to be herd bound, to lead and pony, to be good in traffic and be easy to catch and trailer. The owner stood no nonsense, and would use physical means to back up what he wanted, but because he knew what he was doing new horses soon caught on to what was required. I never saw his methods leave a horse with lasting physical damage: a damaged horse can’t work.
I think part of the problem a lot of people have with horses is that they underestimate what horses can do, both what they can physically cope with and how quickly and effectively they can learn. And because they underestimate, they kill with kindness instead.
Great post and I appreciated most of the other comments.
I, too, try to remain open minded and shut up and listen and observe. It seems to get me much farther along in most situations be they livestock or human. As a 30+ year educator of high school students, I found that using these same strategies that work on horses, were effective with the humans. I am currently riding with a young cowboy who works young horses and it often takes my breath away to see how he leads them quietly, yet takes no prisoners. He understands young horses and treats them respectfully and properly with great confidence and then turns around and treats this 56 yr old returning to riding woman the same. How can we all not succeed under these conditions?
As the mother of a seriously accomplished horsewoman daughter (jumpers), I particularly relate to your words about your own daughter. You seem like a humble and sensible woman not prone to jumping up and down in attention grabbing displays. On your behalf, I have puffed up my chest in honor of your wonderful girl! Well done, Mama!
I have really enjoyed your posts so far, including this one. I grew up around horses and also have done some things I am not proud of. I rode dressage and jumpers for quite a while but was just as comfortable in a western saddle, much to shock of the dressage riders in my area. My horses were always happy, often pastured and taken on many trail rides. I went to college in E. WA and learned more of the “natural” horse handling. My boss had me help him work with a load of yearlings and 2yo’s that a rancher friend had sent up for a college horsemanship class. These were unhandled youngsters who weren’t really sure they wanted to be halter broke. Many of them came around within a week of roundpen work from both experienced and inexperienced student; a handful did not.
I learned so much from working with the “don’t touch me” group of colts and things that seemed foreign or cruel to me were shown to not be. We roped most of these youngsters; it is amazing the buck and leap they make when a rope first drops over their heads, and then moderate pressure is kept on the rope as they careen around the round pen. As soon as they start to slow or look towards us, the pressure is released. All but one was haltered within 10 minutes of being roped, no one was choked and not a one of them acted abused. They just needed to be pushed over the hump. I learned amazing things from my old cowboy boss, but also learned to handle him a bit like training a horse, to suggest an alternate course and let him make the decision his own. The day he was treating an injury with an old type of treatment I merely suggested that I had something in my truck that helped my horse heal up great and quickly and if he wanted some to let me know…a couple minutes later he asked for it and later thanked me when the horse healed up great.
We can’t change these old cowboys and horsemen, but we can show them alternate ways and offer our help when they need it and give them the respect their age and experience requires. Did I hate him for sending his horses to slaughter? Yes. Was there any changing his mind? No. Did I learn a huge amount from him? Yes, and I would like to think he learned a little from me to.
Honestly I think most horses are less damaged from being sacked out or bucked out than their are living a life of rollkur, stacks and pads, peanut rolling or stuck in an endless loop of showing.
I just finished reading “The Eighty Dollar Champion” subtitle Snowman, the Horse that Inspired a Nation by Elizabeth Letts. It was published this year. I don’t know how I missed it, but my daughter brought it in after and Barnes and Noble run. It is a lovely recounting of an actual horse and the unique trainer who rescued him off a kill truck. In case people want another equine book to read. Not as good as Mugwump, but definitely worth reading.
There are so many stories like that. The AQHA JQURNAL did a story on a horse named Big Red Woman who ended up being a champion jumper who was rescued out of a kill pen. I wrote the AQHA a letter and told them this example is exactly why they should be against slaughter. Of course I received no reply.
Driving Champion Mr. Chester Craig Weber rescued a horse, who became one of his best driving horses and took him to many championships, and was recently retired.
I love stories like these!
GREAT post, Mugs, thank you. I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about this. My experiences were with the badly broke, and the spoiled. I always used simple methods that showed the horse what I wanted. When I broke my colt, I took my sweet time. When I went financially broke, my horse went on to be a wonderful favourite schoolie, until soundness issues claimed him.
Years later, taking lessons, because that’s all I could afford, I rode a “famous” retired WP QH. I couldn’t understand where his go button had gone. You needed two whips to make him lift a foot. The horse was bought for a wealthy guy, had never ridden, wanted to be a John Wayne cowboy in his 60′s. The horse was dead broke, I mean dead as a door nail, never felt anything like it. Should have been totally safe for this old guy, right?
(I quit the place when I saw them using auction horses, unbroke and wild, in beginner lessons. One instructor, six unbroke horses, and kids learning how to ride. It was dangerous as hell.)
I heard, a year or so later, from the old guy’s wife, that the WP QH had finally had enough of his John Wayne wannabe, who deemed cantering home, uphill, on a newly gravelled road as a suitable method for his own relaxation. This deadbroke champeen WP QH bucked him OFF, wrecked the guy’s back badly, and the horse was sold on. Guy quit riding, thank dog.
My point, as usual, has been lost in my musings. But I hear ya, Mugs. I hear ya.
The celebration of brutal methods in some western events still rankles me. Reading of the REAL rancher above, who understands that a horse needs to want to be with you, rings so true, my head is shaking. Or maybe that’s an aftershock from the earthquake;)
I think if mr. old guy had genuinely been interested in his horse, the horse wouldn’t have bucked him off. All old guy wanted was to wear spurs and be a good old boy. (Laughable in someone who rubbed shoulders with the highest in business and govt.)
Horses, even the best broke/dead broke, will let you know when you’re being unreasonable.
Thanks again, Mugs. Congratulations. It’s a start, indeed.
I feel there is something to be learned by almost any training style – as long as it’s not 100% abuse (such as tying them around overnight, or soring, or ther such things).
The guy I had back Felix for me is a bit of the old school cowboy approach. He’s a great, calm rider for first backings – but he does not longe or long line, he just saddles up, gets the horse used to having the saddle leaned on and then gets on and rides (this is not always done all in one session of course). For Felix, he was a rank, angry little pony when I got him, and likely would have been the type to turn into a rodeo bronc with this guy’s usual approach – so me and another retired trainer friend spent a month with Felix on long lines before I handed him over to my guy to back and start for me.
The first rides were an absolute joy. No reactions, no nothing. He does buck a bit when he’s tired and sour – but they are working through this, and it’s not much more then a little crowhop when Felix would rather leave the arena then continue working. My guy learned a thing or two about long lining (such as you can get all the “angry” out of them on the ground before you even think about sitting on their back!), and actualyl so did I. My first training project I long lined or longed before EVERY ride for nearly 3 years. No reason, I was just scared to just get on and go. Felix I KNOW is good when you just hop on and get to work. After only 3 months under saddle, I feel safer with him then any other young horse I’ve ever worked with.
felixfjord.blogspot.com
I was guilty of the “underestimating a horse’s toughness” group for a while. I ride western pleasure. So, when I got a paint with racing bloodlines to break (just for fun, she was free and she needed the upgrade), I somehow thought she would be as calm as the 2 year old pleasure-bred horses I’d rode in the past. I’d get on her, try to make her walk and trot calmly because the pleasure babies I’d rode relaxed after a few laps at a walk, and it never worked. She never calmed down, fought me the whole time I was asking her to go slow. This went on until she was 4. My boyfriend (who I taught how to ride) fell in love with her, and wanted to take her home for the summer to move cattle. With many doubts, I let him. Under the guidance of his “cowboy” family members, he commenced to leaving her tied around 6 or 7 hours a day, and riding her twice a day, with the goal being to work her ~8 miles every day. I was very worried about this. I thought it was too much, too fast, and when I went to visit her, I hated her speedy trot and canter. Now that we’re both back at school and I’ve been riding her, I’ve noticed she’s 10 times calmer. A ten minute extended trot around the arena, and suddenly she’s willing to give me a slow jog. She also would rear with me if I got up in her mouth too much-that problem is gone too.
Two lessons here.
1. Sometimes it really does take just lots of wet saddle blankets. Nothing fancy, just hard work.
2. Let the horse do what it’s meant to. Don’t try to make a HUS horse out of something that hates making contact with the bit and relaxing its head down. This particular mare is now started trotting the barrel pattern and she seems to love it
Interesting comment – about Parelli teaching women who can’t ride. I have attended several NH clinics (including Parelli) and although there’s a lot of thought -provoking stuff there, one of the first things I noticed was 3/4 of the students – and yes they were women – could not ride. Some did not even know how to hold the reins and the inharmonious muscle development of their horses shouted poor training and imbalance. I expected some sort of discussion on the subject to be included but of course it wasn’t and that was a major reason for me to turn away from the movement – it did seem to be an environment that fostered reliance on gimmicks and tricks that would ‘make’ your hose in 15 minutes instead of the long-term, slow and steady building of one skill upon another which has been my experience. And that also means as others have said – swallow nothing whole – take waht works for you and your horse from whatever various sources you see and build your own wisdom. Riding and training is a life-long lesson.
Hi
Totally agree with your post. Like you read a page right out of my book.
I break in wild horses for a living, as well as train eventing and dressage horses. I have learned so much from watching all differant trainers, from my texan cowboy grandfather, to dressage instructors in germany, to eventing and horsemanship gurus down here in the southern hemisphere. Every single one has taught me something.
One thing that every good trainer has no matter how harsh or gentle is timing, throwing them down on the ground, or poking them with a carrot stick, to asking for a few steps of piaffe, your timing has to be right to be effective. You can be old fashioned cowboy and a bit harsh if you no when to back off, same with an other method.
One Grandprix trainer said to me that a more harsh rider can have happier horses if hes very clear in what he training than a soft rider who nags all the time. It all comes down to what you ask and the timing you use of when to stop asking.
Totally agree with you that you have to watch a trainer for a little while to understand the whole method and situation. There are many trainers i have learned from, some even if its just that i dont want to do it that way!
keep up the good posts!
I can’t agree more. Timing is about work, practice, work and more practice and thanks.
I’d love to read a post on timing, if you’re so inclined. It’s so important!
I second that!
I love your post. ALL animal training is about timing as it pertains to pressure and release. Apply a pressure and release at the exact moment that the animal does what you want, or even makes the first tiny move towards what you want. That is why it is so much more effective to have the animal teach himself anytime that it is possible.
Honestly, the word “cowboy” does not make me think happy thoughts. For example, I think that throwing a horse down, covering him with a tarp , and beating him is never OK. However, I do have respect for good horse training and have learned some “cowboy” methods that really work without being cruel. The point is that in my opinion it is best to be open minded while putting the best interest of the horse first.
Learn something from everyone you meet,even if it’s what NOT to do.. Words to live by everyday.
Top notch post – you are doing fine. Don’t let people get you down.
I’m not sure that cowboys’ horses are any less unhealthy than high-falootin’ show horses for reasons that have anythign to do with their lifestyle. I think they’ve been bred by necessity to have an incredible tolerance for abuse along with their “cowiness.” Like TWHs can take just about anything and stay sound, cowboy-bred cutting horses can take just about anything and stay sane (for values of “sane” that are normal for cutting horses). I remember hearing from a reined cowhorse trainer that “This mare is never going to go anywhere because she has no tolerance for her rider getting after her.” By “getting after her” she meant shanking with a curb bit, spurring with sharp rowels, slapping hard with the reins, and generally beating on the mare every ride to get her a little sharper after the cow.
Oddly enough, the mare never DID go anywhere because she had the world’s worst conformation for a cutting horse–tall, LONG back, straight legs–but with a gentle rider she was sharp as a tack and listened to every cue. But no, she had no tolerance for abuse, which made her useless to the trainer whose job was to churn out winning reined cowhorses by the method she’d used for decades.
Nervous Nelly show horses are descended from at least a few generations of pampered performance horses, and they seem in general to have been bred only for high performance (kind of like race horses) by caregivers willing to go to any length to keep them sound and sane enough to ride and alive, rather than selecting for horses that don’t take much to stay sound, sane, and alive.
One Muddy- Gotta argue here. Cutting and reined cow horses are bred to be highly reactive. Their cattle instincts are honed and their brain power heightened so they can work with minimum guidance. These are not horses for the faint hearted or inexperienced. High flight reactions, big spooks and strong opinions do not create a horse with a high tolerance for abuse. They see and react to everything and are NOT desensitized during training.You were talking to a crappy cow horse trainer BTW, the best ones like and look for those super sensitive horses.
I can’t speak for ropers, that’s a whole different kind of horse.
The evidence in your post tends to contradict your comment — I’m talking about the horses you claim are healthy as, well, horses (is that the most ridiculous saying in the world or what?) despite being thrown and various other forms of abuse. So, if they tolerate that and are healthy, they have a high tolerance for abuse. Generations of working cutters have tolerated “cowboying” and remained healthy; therefore, they appear to have a high tolerance for abuse.
The high dollar show horses may be different, and yes, this was a crappy trainer, but a winning one with a steady steam of very expensive horses coming into her barn to experience the joys of her bizarre form of training. She also didn’t agree with handling foals (?????!) and made one of her daughters abandon a VERY successful jumper mount and sell him because she didn’t want it to be known that one of her girls rode English anymore. It had been OK as a young child as a “flight of fancy” but now that she was an adolescent there would be no more of that.
You’re lumping all horses who work cattle into one pile. A cutter is very different from a reined cow horse and a roper is miles away from the other two. Breeding, build, ability, all different…remember, AQHA is the breed of 800, 000, 000, 000 or so subsets.
All QH will chase a cow, shoot, just about any horse will, the breeding is what creates the horse for each discipline.
“All QH will chase a cow, shoot, just about any horse will,”
I used to have an OTTB who would jump a fence to get away from the cows.
I fixed a wb with that problem by teaching him to move cattle under saddle. At first he’d lather up just being at one end of a 20 acre field with cattle at the other side, but eventually he realised that he could make them run away from him and it was like a lightbulb went on. Never had any problems after that.
“All QH will chase a cow, shoot, just about any horse will”
I had an Appaloosa (1/2 QH) who was afraid of cows. I boarded at a cutting barn for a few months and for kicks the owner would let me hang out in the pen on my App (who was basically an all-around show horse) while they worked the cattle. This horse was normally bomb-proof, but around those cows he was on his toes, dancing, snorting, and jumping out of his skin.
At one show I entered Steer Daubing on him just for fun. He didn’t want to run after the cow.
Of course, this was also the horse that was freaked the eff out by miniature horses.
“Nervous Nelly show horses are descended from at least a few generations of pampered performance horses, and they seem in general to have been bred only for high performance (kind of like race horses) by caregivers willing to go to any length to keep them sound and sane enough to ride and alive, rather than selecting for horses that don’t take much to stay sound, sane, and alive. ”
I don’t disagree with this at all. However, I would add that the daily maintenance of many show horses seems to contribute to their “fragile little minds.” I mean, who wouldn’t be a Nervous Nelly if their only stimulation outside of the stall was the arena? I’ve boarded or trained at many a show barn whose horses rarely had turnout (one barn’s “turnout” was to move the horse from a 12×12 indoor box stall to a 12×12 outside pipe corral!), never saw a trail, and whose routine was like clockwork. It seems that horses who have varied experiences get used to stressors and may drop the nervousness. Sure, not all will, but horses need their mental health taken into consideration. And the life of a show horse is so unnatural that I don’t understand why trainers don’t include some form of relaxation into their regime; trail riding, hand-walking/grazing, turnout, etc can only help.
I think the human mentality that the prized show horse is too valuable to subject it to something like trail riding or turnout because of the risk of injury or whatever is detrimental for the long-term usefulness of the horse.
I agree that not going into hysterics is way more effective than yelling. On any given day if one of my horses a) tries to bite me, or b) tries to kick me, you will see me “wail” on them with anything handy, including my foot, for about 3 seconds so that they think they are going to DIE! Then I move on with whatever it was I was doing as though nothing ever happened. As a result, my horses are not biters or kickers and have a healthy respect for my authority.
However, on the other hand if I’m trying to teach the horse something, or get them “softer” on the bit under saddle, I do not punish them for either a) not knowing something, or b) having an “off” day.
I think horse owners have become way too “touchy-feely” with horses and horses do not think this way.
Sooo… You stood by while horses were being abused with, “training practices which completely freaked me out,” and “harsh methods I considered cruel” because… you were watching and learning?
Sounds more like you were too chickenshit to either stand up for those horses or get out of there.
John F. Kennedy said, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
You fail.
“John F. Kennedy said, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.””
If JFK ever said that he was quoting Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
By building a relationship with those trainers, Mugly and her daughter have shown them a different way of working with horses, and gotten them interested in the results. Let’s see you ‘stand up for those horses’ and get anything accomplished other than being shown the gate. What’s the goal here, changing people’s minds or waving the ‘holier than thou’ flag?
*sigh*
Speaking in generalities of course but men make ‘em do it and women make ‘em want to do it. It’s that simple.
Keeping your mouth shut and showing by example speaks louder anyway. Let the horse be the proof. Those good ol’ boys are never too old to learn
So far I am really enjoying your blog. A different take on the age-old issues of horses, trainers, and showing, etc… I really liked the cowboy’s comment about the horse needing “to be trained by a woman”. But there is the flip side of the coin too – that is, sometimes a woman needs to be a bit more like a man (cowboy) where a horse is concerned. I own a wonderful warmblood cross who is a very nice hunter. He is honest, has nice gaits, etc… but he likes to take advantage on the ground. I grew up wanting to always treat horses with a soft touch -to be gentle, calm, and quiet around them. My horse takes that as an opportunity to take charge – pawing in crossties, trying to nip, whipping his head around while you are tightening up the girth, evading the bridle, and generally behaving like an obnoxious child. I had to learn that doling out one meaningful smack in the chest with the butt end of the lead rope, or in the worst case, a single meaningful snap on a stud chain reminds him there are rules and that I will enforce them. It was the hardest thing for me to learn to do – judicial discipline that is not meted out in anger, but is enough to get his attention. He will never be a horse that wants to be loved on, but in our own way we are tightly bonded – he will honestly carry me over jumps, tolerates my mistakes and we trust each other. But I am sure some people would be appalled and think that I am being mean. What they don’t understand (and what took me a long time to understand), is that my horse wants a leader, but that leader needs to earn my horse’s respect.