I freely admit I am too tired to read up on the drama…
Aug 06 2011
So I’m just going to ask you this:
WTF is the problem with the government wanting to geld mustangs? Why are all the mustang people fighting it tooth and nail? I think it sounds fabulous. The only thing that sounds better to me is if they also geld every douchebag with a mustang breeding program. Mustangs are something we have a vast oversupply of, while having a vast undersupply of people who can turn a wild-caught one into a finished riding horse. You know it’s true. For everyone who SAYS they can do it, how many can? I know three women, personally, who have done it. Three. And one of them got seriously hurt doing it, though she cowgirl’ed up and got the damn horse finished anyway. I have seen way more failures. I personally would never attempt it. I sort of don’t see the POINT when you can get something that is track broke just as free and, you know, it’s a whole lot less likely to kill you. But apparently if your idea of fun is trail riding up a cliff, a mustang is your dream horse, and that’s great, but for god’s sake there is NO shortage of them so why aren’t we THRILLED if someone wants to pay to geld them?
I mean, is the whole issue about the general incompetence of the government at doing anything right and the likelihood they’ll fuck up a simple procedure like gelding and kill a whole bunch of them? If that’s it, I guess I can see that point. The government is fantastically incompetent at, well, everything, so it stands to reason they might not be great at lopping off balls. But still, gelding is an extremely routine procedure and a hundred years ago, most horses survived it despite having it done with the crudest methods and no drugs. Numerous stallions have become geldings in filthy kill pens and gotten rescued thereafter with nothing more than a course of SMZ’s needed to cure any infection. I really don’t think there’s THAT much chance gelding a bunch of stallions is going to kill them, no matter how half-assed it is done.
I don’t know. Maybe it makes sense if you read 52 pages of highly dramatic rambling that makes liberal use of terms like free, dream, heritage, legacy, spirit, etc. but every time I start reading that stuff, my eyes cross and I become queasy, so I’ll have to take your word for it. All I have to say is: Dear Government, if the Mustang Maniacs don’t want you gelding mustangs, could you geld all the non-stallion-quality males of EVERY OTHER breed at your expense? You just tell me where and I will have a line out the door waiting. Deal?
199 comments to “I freely admit I am too tired to read up on the drama…”
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I sure don’t have a problem with it – they geld the adoptable and long term holding horses anyway. I’d rather see them go back out on the range than into LTH any day. And it’s DAMN sure more practical than spaying the mares! (Yes, that was seriously suggested.)
Of course, you do realize that the vast majority of the overpopulation “problem” would be solved if we pulled all of the ranch cattle off government land…not saying that’s a viable option, but there has to be some middle ground.
Well that’s quite a rant. Here’s what’s wrong.
1. The federal government does not seem to have the means or the staff to employ a consistent and reasonable population control methodology across vast free-roaming herd management areas. One that selectively utilizes population control while ensuring the genetic viability of the herds. On the island of Assateague they consistently and effectively use PZP on the mares. But on Assateague they have a comparatively small herd on a limited land mass. That said, I think it could be done, and it seems the feds are trying every which way to do it, some ways witchier than others. (Like doing experimental surgeries on free roaming mares living outside the official HMAs.) The haphazard way they seem to make the attempts, the cryptic way they make the announcements, and the scarier fringe things being tried, just combine to cause a lot of alarm.
2. The competing interests in the herd management areas make any discussion of herd reduction suspect. If there was more transparency as to the discussions and processes regarding how land use was allocated, and leases given, then maybe there would be more understanding of “appropriate management levels” or whatever term they use for the number of horses per HMA. I’m sure there are meetings and so forth, but why not get all this stuff out on the web, in a a format that is easy for the average citizen to digest. As it is, the average person hears 160,000 acres and 300 horses and they naturally say why is the government planning to geld the horses? My solution to this is… why not let people pay the government not to lease the land? Let mustang groups adopt an HMA or sections of an HMA and pay whatever the government gets for their sheep leases or whatever. Give the mustang people a way to get their way – contribute to a land lease to keep the mustangs as the primary users of the HMA resources. Give them a way to put their money where their mouth is.
3. Like with the endless Iraq/Afghan wars, the feds rely on private contractors to do the roundups, fertility control experiments, etc. So there is a suspicion of profiteering and so on, as these various entities make many millions off “managing” the herds. What is the motivation to successfully and humanely manage a population if your livelihood depends on letting them breed and rounding them up? I’m not saying any of these contractors in particular are bad, because what do I know, but I think most people feel that sufficient oversight is probably not in place and the efforts are not being consistently coordinated and the financial incentives may be tilted more toward profit-making than what is good for the animals.
4. Why not get the State university veterinary schools involved in oversight, coming up with sound herd management policies and practices, etc? A neutral party that have veterinary expertise, and are ostensibly not motivated primarily by commercial interests? So perhaps there could be some credibility and trust built. Because government tends to be separated into silos. Agencies don’t talk to each other, and state and fed typically don’t talk too much to each other either, unless one is handing out money to the other.
Not all of these are my ideas, I’ve borrowed some from other sources. And I could go on even more about this, but there’s a start. That said, I do agree that the tone of the discussion tends to be overly hyperbolic. Almost like the right wing anti-abortion fanatics, who cannot see any shade of grey. To them I say, well every one of you should adopt an baby. And I guess I could say the same to the mustang criers, every one of you should adopt a mustang. Then we could clean out the holding corrals and let’s stat over with some practical plans based in veterinary science. And yes, I am starting with myself. My horse is a (formerly) wild mustang.
“I do agree that the tone of the discussion tends to be overly hyperbolic. Almost like the right wing anti-abortion fanatics, who cannot see any shade of grey. To them I say, well every one of you should adopt an baby. And I guess I could say the same to the mustang criers, every one of you should adopt a mustang. ”
Man you hit the nail on the head right there. I totally and completely agree. I had the same question to people about horse slaughter. For those of you who are against it, are you willing to take in one of those thousands of horses that are left behind at the auction each year? And when the next year comes around and there are more thousands of horses left at the auction, will you take in another one?
And you are TOTALLY awesome for getting your own mustang. YOU are the solution–you put your money where your mouth is! THANK YOU!
(And just in case anyone gets testy, I am against horse slaughter, but not for the reasons most people would think.)
Come ON! Horse slaughter for human consumption is a SUPPLY & DEMAND BUSINESS RUN FOR PROFIT! It is not a program for dealing with “excess” horses. Horses are bred with this end in mind if they are not the one-in-a-hundred that the producer wants for other purposes! It is an industry whose purpose is to put money in the pockets of the companies exporting the meat, and the (toxic) meat in the mouths of misguided people in other countries. If we all adopted a horse from the kill pens, the breeders and brokers would say “Whoopee!” and just breed/acquire more.
But, people who suggest that we do that aren’t serious anyway, I expect. Because they know it is not the real issue. A legislative session or two ago, when the bills to ban horse transport to slaughter were being seriously considered, the pro-slaughter people made the hoary rants of “what will happen to all the horses that don’t get butchered?” and a homing offer for about 100,000 horses was made by the Black Farmers Association (led by Dr. John Boyd).
What happened? Nothing. Because the horses are not the issue — profit is what is important. Same thing with the mustangs. Nobody who is trying to eradicate them (no, they don’t admit it but they are) cares about the horses at all — they were happy to ignore them for decades until big money came into the picture. These people are not going to come out and say that the horses are in the way of the livestock and energy interests that pay the big lobbying fees in Congress. But that’s what’s behind it.
Fugs i agree with you. This sounds fantastic! finally someone coming up with positive solutions!
as someones who has succesfully turned wild horses into riding horses http://www.wildhorseproject.blogspot.com and this includes a stallion and mare. I do not like the idea of breeding mustangs, they are fnatastic horses but there are plenty of them still needing homes out get mustered out of the moutains! plus you never know what you will get breeding them
They are not fantasy walt disney creatures either. You can really stuff things up. i have herd of people getting chased up trees by their wild stallion’s because they wanted a specail ‘bond’ with theses animals, instead of a working horse- human relationship. there are many horro stories of horses being left in tiny cattle yards for months because they didnt magiacally fall in love with their new owners. Gelding them and setting them free again sounds far better than this
I really do love my wild horses, and will definatly adopt more, as they come without any learned people problems, and i find them far easier to train than retraining already stuffed up ex racehorses or problem ponies. My little stallion is soon to be gelded and is going to start his new life as a dressage horse for a lady rider. my wild mare hopefully will be out eventing with me this year. Lovely horses, would love to see more of them saved. however until trained they are not for idiots
PS Hate all these nuttes who want to save all the horses, but cant come up with any solution or comprmises. unfortunatly wild horses are feral horses. this gelding idea sounds fantastic, good for the horses good for the enviroment. what the problem?
Let’s see, gelding is a no-no, but shipping them off to slaughter in Mexico is a yes-yes?
Letting them rot and bake in the hot southern sun in holding pens where some are stacked shoulder to shoulder, that
is much better then gelding some, and trying to reduce the reproduction of more? So many critics too few doing anything to help the voiceless mustang. I applaud Madeleine Pickens for all that she has and is doing for our wild steeds. RT Fitch for getting out the word to all who want to listen, about the plight of these creatures.
I also applaud you Cathy, for all your information and all the animals that you have in some way ‘saved’.
WTF? I think gelding sounds like a fabulous idea!!! Much better than oh, say, killing them either by starvation, neglect or the kill truck. People are so stupid sometimes. There won’t be any heritage or dream or whatever starry-eyed word you want to choose if a logical way to control numbers and cost aren’t found. The Tea Party is getting their radical way all over the place and if they want to bitch about taking care of less-fortunate humans with government money, what makes anyone think they will want to put aside any kind of government funding to feed mustangs?
Mustangs would actually be a prime source of horsemeat for export b/c it’s the only source in America that you can almost gaurantee has never had a wormer, bute, SMZ or any other compounded substance that is banned in meat for human consumption. That makes being a mustang even more dangerous than just being a regular unfortunate horse, I think!
Also totally agree on the utter incompetency of government right now, regardless of party affiliation. Shameless plug here, but if you are a moderate like most of America…vote next time, goddamit! Stop letting the radical retards of either side get into office! We’ll all stand a much better chance of getting what we need!
Also…if anyone here knows a bit about Morgan breeding, drop me a line please! It’s not a breed I am very familiar with, but I saw a couple that really caught my eye and now I think I need to educate myself! urbanzebu (at) gmail.com Thanks!!
While we do have a surplus of Mustangs, I think what people are getting upset about is the fact that if the government gelds every stallion, then there won’t be any future generations. If they only geld the ones that aren’t breeding quality great. From my understanding though, once a Mustang is brought in for adoption if it’s a stallion they cut it, and I know that lots of people don’t follow the rules/regulations, but if I remember correctly you aren’t supposed to breed a Mustang you got through the BLM adoption. I guess what I’m getting it as everything needs to be done in moderation; all or nothing doesn’t work.
I just read the other day in the paper that the gov’t had cancelled plans to round up, geld and release (some of) a whole lot of stallions. It now said they were simply going to round up and remove them…….
The article didnt state why the gelding had been cancelled. Unfortunately, Im also too busy to read 52 pages of whatever so now Im really wondering why the gelding was cancelled, seriously was it in response to criticism by horse advocates?? If so, thats just crazy.
Ive always believed there has to be a “meeting in the middle” on the mustang issue. The govt and ranchers want them gone, and the adovcates and public want them to stay. Allowing them to breed freely isnt realistic as there are very few natural preditors and there would truly be too many for the range to support. Sterilization is such an obvious solution its a no brainer………
Forgive me if someone has touched on this further down, but why do we NEED wild mustangs anyway? Nature certainly didnt place them there, why do they need to be “preserved” in the wild? If there is some market for mustangs, why not pluck out the nicest ones, start a legit breeding program of some sort, you know, where they are born in captivity… and then euth or geld the rest and let them dwindle out on their own? They dont have to be WILD to preseve the breed and I am sorry, but there are precious few out there that look like they could really excel at any specific discipline anyway.
America has enough useless horses. JMO.
Funny, I feel the exact same way about quite a lot of people.
I think, as a teacher, that I should be allowed to decide which students are not trying hard enough, and those are the students who should be euthanized or castrated. I mean, I’ve gone to college, got a license, and I’m clearly in a position to see which students don’t really ‘do’ anything. Why not let me make the call on which ones are worthless?
(And if you can’t find the sarcasm in the above statement, along with the satire, then please cue up for the castration now)
Snort! Love it.
Charm. Your name suits you. Funny, smart, and RIGHT. You have me cracking up! Thanks for the laugh.
Why do we need mustangs, boo-hiss?
I don’t know. Maybe the fact that I saddled up my ol’ black BLM mare this morning, and rode her seven and a half fast miles over gravel roads … barefoot. She came home fresh, and moving great. Or maybe the fact that she’s a LOT smarter than the average horse, and takes baby steps whenever any insecure, unbalanced riders are on her back, including small children. Yet she fires back up, and turns into a devious beady-eyed witch when my sister and I get on her. Or maybe it’s that strong bond she’s formed with me, no ‘normal’ horse has come close to–she whinnies every time I walk out of her line-of-sight. Every. Damn. Time. She has also attacked another horse that tried charging me.
Or maybe we need mustangs because we humans can be douchebags when it comes to breeding. We get so obsessed with speed, power, and appearances, eventually we breed the feet, fertility, and brains right off of most everything we touch. In a couple hundred years, we’ll NEED mustangs to cross with our lame, infertile, dumb horses.
We also need mustangs for research. Wild mustangs rarely colic. Domesticated ones colic often (including mine). That’s very telling about our horse-keeping practices. There is so much we can learn from wild mustangs.
Oh, and another reason we need mustangs? Some of us actually prefer them over quarter horses, paints, arabs, and thoroughbreds. Taming a mustang was tedious work. But I’d do it again. And again. I can only hope future generations will have the same opportunity.
Yes, the mustang population needs to be controlled. But not obliterated. The real issue to me, is which ones to keep breeding, and which ones to sterilize. I fear some jackass will geld/spay the types I’d adopt in a heartbeat, and let breed the ones I wouldn’t.
I think its wonderful that you have such a bond with your mustang, but I just dont see that as a “need” for more. I feel I have a similar bond with my saddlebred mare and gelding, a person could potentially have that bond with any horse, and by the same token, out of the many horses I have had (mostly saddlebred); I have never once had a colic case, and RARELY had any issues with lameness…now that I think of it, I dont think I have ever had a horse in all my years that was even very sick at all (*knockonwood*). Again, mostly saddlebreds. Reckon we should let them breed freely on the range as a super horse to be studied as well?
“Or maybe we need mustangs because we humans can be douchebags when it comes to breeding. We get so obsessed with speed, power, and appearances, eventually we breed the feet, fertility, and brains right off of most everything we touch. In a couple hundred years, we’ll NEED mustangs to cross with our lame, infertile, dumb horses.”
A couple hundred years? How about now?
Yeah, you’re right.
UPDATE ON MY MUSTANG: She did two back-to-back Limited Distance rides this weekend. And then I used her to de-mark a twelve mile section of the trail. Over sixty miles. Completely barefoot. Hardly any change in her feet. In fact, I had to trim her when I got home Monday, because she grew too much hoof to compensate for all those miles!
People would prefer to see the horses starved, die of dehydration, or be rounded up to be sold for slaughter? Where, in the definitions of the words free, dream, heritage, legacy, spirit, etc., do we find starvation, dehydration, and the beginning-to-end slaughter process? Let the government think of and impose one after another really bad idea, and people are rallying in support, but let someone pose a realistic method to reduce the numbers of wild horses, a particular breed subject to several methods of inhumane eradication, and people object. Being on a nation’s “hit list” is far worse than being gelded. All the other less desirable methods of “population control” will still exist, but this program will ensure fewer horses will be subjected to them. Perhaps if the numbers of wild mustangs are reduced to a manageable number, and I don’t know what a realistic number would be as cattle farmers fence off water supplies so their cattle won’t be forced to share a drop of water with one horse much less a herd, we won’t be so hellbent on eliminating them altogether.
I support the motion to geld.
When you sit on Facebook and participate in Slacktivism posts (such as the rose going around to “support” the fallen service members that died over the weekend, or “post this for an hour to support cancer) it’s all about “look how byootiful the wild horsies are! Yay!” I think there are some rainbows in there too.
Forget the reality of not enough grazing and too many horses.
I have always thought these people have this WEIRD, WARPED, romantic notion of life in the wild that has NOTHING TO DO WITH REALITY.
As I analogized before, being a mustang is like being a HOMELESS GUY. You have no shelter, you MAY find food, no medical care, and predators are out to get you. It is NOT a good life. The homeless guy is “free” too – he doesn’t have to go to work or take orders from anyone. He can do whatever he wants, but his life still SUCKS which is why none of us are chucking it all to be homeless even though we may not like our boss or some of the restrictions placed on our life. We still realize we like all the comforts of being a domesticated human and so we STFU and put up with a few things we don’t like to keep those comforts.
Well that comes down to… do you think horses (and these horses in particular) are livestock or wild animals? Livestock can’t live without humans. Wild animals can. Horses are interesting because in the right circumstances they can live quite well in the wild. I believe some wild horses have a better life than many domestic horses, and some domestic horses have better lives than certain free-roaming horses. I don’t think you can make a universal generalization.
That is the BEST ANALOGY EVER!!! It should be a billboard.
Horses are much more suited to feral living, than humans are to homeless living in our modern society. At one time there were vast numbers of feral horse across the American west. Apparently feral living agreed with them.
[This brings up one of my pet peeves - people who claim that they do not need to provide shelter for their horses because wild horses do not have shelter. Wild horses on sufficient, suitable range can usually find shelter. It may be a dense copse of trees to shelter inside of or on the lee side of. It may be a draw that run perpendicular to the direction of the wind. When you confine horses on anything less than several sections, you need to provide them a substitute for the natural shelter you are denying them.]
No wild animal has guaranteed shelter or food. They have no medical care and, unless they are at the top of the food chain, predators are out to get them. I don’t thing that justifies removing them all from the wild and placing them in zoos where they would get better care.
One problem is that prior to the passage of the Wild and Free Ranging Horse and Burro Act, ranchers were aggressively removing horses from the better ranges, leaving them on or driving them to the poorer areas. One really stupid provision of the Act was that the horses have to remain on the land where they were at the time of the passage of the Act. Since this is good for neither the horses or the land, I can only assume that it was a concession to ranchers who wanted to keep the better ranges that they had driven the horse from for themselves and their cattle. The Act need to be revised so that the horses can be put on ranges that will support them well without damage to the range.
“Slacktivism”? How many of these herds have you observed that support your opinion? How many tires have you blown on the crap roads? How many PB&J sanwiches have you scarfed down while trying to find a couple hundred horses on millions of acres? Please feel free to provide your credentials and I will gladly label myself a crazy and start talking about the magickal horses. Obviously I’m blind since I’ve never seen a lame, older horse and known that he won’t survive the month. I’ve never seen a dead horse or a pissy mare stuck with a crap stallion waiting until she can “upgrade”. I have seen these horses content, surrounded by family while foals play with each other in the pre-dawn light. So clearly, it’s all sunshine and rainbows for me. And my two Mustangs who refuse to go into the shelter during a blizzard and who can stay fat on half the food your average domestic needs show how ill-equipped they are to survive on their own.
Get off your high horse and quit depending on the internet to give you an excuse to look down on us lowly individuals who enjoy these animals. Or better yet, go see some wild herds for yourself and then maybe you can know what you’re spouting off about.
Clearly, the use of the term “slacktivism” was referring to people who don’t have any idea what they’re talking about and don’t do anything other than mindlessly repost comments about their butterflies-and-rainbows version of life. What else would you call people that sit on their butts and repost comments so they can pat themselves on the back for doing something, while in reality they never have the guts to get up and actually put actions to their words?
By your own examples, these activities do not describe you, which means the term was not pointed at you, so why would you take offense? It sounds like you’ve had some amazing experiences and gotten to see some really cool things.
Personally, I love the idea of wild horses and think there are ways for them to be properly managed. I’d love to adopt a Mustang someday. However, when a certain segment of the pro-wild-horse crowd starts gushing about Mustangs being the be-all-end-all, my eyes do glaze over. There is not one horse breed that is the best horse for everyone because everyone has different things they’re looking for. Life would be way too boring if all horses were the same!
If I was looking for a horse based on their ability to stand out in blizzards and thrive on a small amount of food, I’d look at your guys.
If I were looking for a horse to win the Kentucky Derby or a Saddleseat class, I’d look elsewhere. Looking elsewhere does not mean I look down on Mustangs (or any other breed, for that matter) it just means that for my personal needs at this time in my life, this is not the horse for me. No hard feelings, no judgment being passed, just a simple matter of looking at what is best suited for what I’ll ask.
Yeah… that did come out harsh, didn’t it? It just frustrates me. I’ve invested so much time and energy in the past two months trying to save these two herds, my favorite herds, and going online to read my favorite blog only to see so many people insulting myself and my friends made me want to punch something. I know quite a few wild horse advocates, and every single one of them goes up to see various herds at least 4 times a year, and we go in the winter just as much as in the summer. Most of them, including myself, have at least one adopted Mustang. 99% of us are not against roundups but we do see the number of horses removed rapidly increasing as more and more herds are completely zeroed out. Of course we fear for the future of the wild horse when the agency tried to quietly eradicate one of the most easily viewable herds in the country (White Mountain).
For the above reasons, I don’t know where this “flaky wild horse advocate” stereotype comes from. The vast majority of us are intelligent people who see flaws in the reasoning the BLM uses for many of the current roundups and the census techniques employed. For that reason, I find it incredibly hypocritcal to read posts by people sitting around on their computers condemning people like me by claiming that we are, well, sitting around on our computers posting on blogs with no idea what’s really going on. What is the difference?
P.S. you really get a Mustang for trail riding/packing/endurance. They’re perfect for a nice long ride on mountain trails. Saving money on feed and (depending on the Mustang) shoeing is just a bonus.
For those who curious: here are links to pictures of the thinnest horse and fattest horses I could find in White Mountain in April. A blizzard had just gone through and I had to hike everywhere since the roads were impassable. There’s no doubt the dark bay stallion was lean, as you would expect any wild animal to be after a bad winter. He was also intentionally keeping his family in the higher country to avoid the threat of his mare being won by another stallion. The horses in the lower elevations looked much better, as you can see by the mare:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rareeves/6039553660/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rareeves/6039553870/in/photostream/
By comparison, here are pictures of the thinnest and fattest horses I could find in July. The “thin” horse is obviously more tall and lanky than “thin”, which further illustrates my point:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rareeves/6039555198/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rareeves/6039004991/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rareeves/6039005401/in/photostream/
I’m not going to get into whether the horses should be removed or not – it wouldn’t make a difference and I don’t have the time. I’m just pointing out via photographs that there is no reason to completely wipe this herd out. They’re surviving up there just fine. I can also provide images of water sources in the area that the horses use, if requested.
Yes, that did come out REALLY harsh.
Slacktivism:The word is usually considered a pejorative term that describes “feel-good” measures, in support of an issue or social cause, that have little or no practical effect other than to make the person doing it feel satisfaction. The acts tend to require minimal personal effort from the slacktivist.
My most hated slacktivism posts via facebook:
♥ Keep this rose going for the 31 US Special Forces and 7 Afghan Commandos who lost their lives in a helicopter crash ♥♥♥♥
_____/)___/)______./¯”"”/’)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯\)¯¯\)¯¯¯’\_„„„„\)
¯`v´¯) Your families are in our thoughts
`*.¸.*´ and prayers during this time. – (This REALLY pisses me off) People are DEAD. There are families out there grieving and you’re making an emoticon rose and that’s supposed to make you awesome?! Fuck you!
Every day 17 teenagers take their own lives because of bullying. So next time you want to start something, say something, post something, exclude someone or start a rumor – think twice before you do because there’s too many bullies getting away with picking on innocent children for silly reasons and pushing the child they bully to suicide. STOP BULLYING NOW !!! I bet 99% wont post this. If you have a heart you will– ♥♥
CAN EVERYONE PLEASE STOP THEIR GAMES FOR 2 MINUTES AND RE POST THIS. PRAY FOR THE MIKE LABLUE FAMILY. HE LOST 4 DAUGHTERS, AGES 2-11 IN A HOUSE FIRE LAST NIGHT. HIS 3 YEAR OLD SON AND WIFE ESCAPED. SHE’S CURRENTLY IN ICU WITH BURNS. I DON’T KNOW THIS FAMILY, BUT I DO KNOW THAT ONLY GOD CAN HEAL THEIR LIVES NOW. PLEASE RE-POST THIS AND START A FB PRAYER CHAIN
Is anyone willing to post this and leave it on your status for at least 1 hour? It is Special Education week & Autism Awareness Month, and this is in honor of all children made in a unique way. You never understand a situation until you are faced with it. Thank you! (posted in June, Autism awareness month is april, there is no special education week and autism awareness day is April 2)
There’s also one about “leave this as your status for an hour to support victims of domestic violence/cancer/diarrhea/stupidity”. I see people that don’t want to donate to charities or actually volunteer their time on there posting about the poor animals in shelters, repost if you support no-kill shelters/spay-neuter/feeding your animals/not letting stupid people breed (apparently as an alternative to posting, for example, the horses available from Camelot)
Not one single one of those posts does anyone but the poster a damn bit of good. Those soldiers are still dead, their families are still grieving, there isn’t enough money for cancer research, animals are still dying in shelters and that guy whose house burned down? Yeah, he’s devastated and probably only has the shirt on his back.
This is not directed at the people who contribute to adoptaplatoon.org or stand on the tarmac to welcome home returning soldiers. Or the people that donate money or participate in cancer fundraisers for money, volunteer or contribute to animals shelters or the red cross, etc. And you are obviously out there busting your ass in the middle of the mustangs trying to make things better and WORKING to make things better. Not posting mushy Facebook posts “OMG Cloud is so byootiful and look at the rainbows! Everyone love mustangs too! Give me another cookie because I’m so awesome!”
And again, yes, you were a little over the top in your reply. -.- I don’t really get involved in the mustang stuff because I don’t know anything about it, all I know is that the fucktard cattle ranchers push the horses off the public land annually because their own land can’t sustain the number of heads they have. And the Feds give ‘em a bahgain!
(Thanks)
I really do believe that mustangs need to be monitored and managed by someone who knows what the H E double hockey stick what they’re doing. First of they are an introduced species and just because they’ve been here a reallllly long time and have had an impact on various cultures in North America doesn’t mean that they should be left to themselves so that nature can run it’s course. Sorry but letting nature run it’s course is only going to create a bigger problem I’m no expert on horses or mustangs but if I’ve got the correct notion not applying intelligent management techniques to the current mustang populations will result in over-population, disease, and eventually starvation probably only to name a few problems. I know you’ve already said it best Fugly but I really felt compelled to add my pro geld two cents in to showmy support.
I think that the idea is that we should leave the mustangs in the wild, where we don’t have to worry about turning them into finished riding horses. The idea is that predation and natural selection will ensure that only the best survive to breed. (Not necessarily the best by human standards. And don’t get me wrong, not every mustang is SPECIAL and there certainly aren’t going to be enough predators to keep them in check as long as they’re managed by BLM. I can see both sides here, but you asked!)
The BLM does not want to “cull” the mustangs, they want to wipe them out. I am with you on almost every issue, Fugs, but there isn’t a vast oversupply of mustangs in the wild. There are too many to be captured, trained and showed, too many for humans to use. But they aren’t there for us to use.
If the wild ones are wiped out, it’s not just tragic for them. We have learned as much about horses from observing them in the wild than in the last five thousand years of domestication. Why don’t mustangs colic? Who wouldn’t want to know that?! What else do we have to learn from them?
Do they not colic or have they not been observed colicking?
Um, they sure do colic. Paying off a 10k colic surgery on my BLM Mustang mare right now, she had to have 3 feet of intestine removed due to a tumor that was the cause of the colic.
Um, Mustangs colic. I don’t know why you are asking why they don’t, because we have one who severely coliced at his previous owners place. Just like any other horse a mustang can get an impaction, eat something they shouldn’t, or get a twisted gut. People might not know that a mustang coliced in the wild though, seeing as it is the wild…
They appear not to colic in the wild, is the suggestion. The statement was NOT a suggestion that the breed is magically exempt, but that for some reason, in the wild, colic doesn’t appear to be an issue. I don’t know if this is a true statement, but you can’t compare a mustang kept in captivity to a mustang out on the range. There is a difference.
Again, as a few people have already mentioned, Mustangs are *not* wild horses, they are feral horses. Mustangs originate from fully-domesticated European stock, just like many of the horses we ride/own. Mustangs are an introduced species to North America, and they have not been here long enough to fundamentally change in physiology. Therefore it’s a bit ridiculous to state that ‘they don’t colic’.
Having said that, can you now clarify whether they do or not in the wild? I mean, it’s great to say, “Well, they haven’t been feral long enough to change physically, so clearly this is an erroneous statement.” But I don’t think it’s that clear at all. Are there studies done on this? Has anyone ever run into a wild horse that was suffering from colic while on the range?
Putting one into a stall and then saying, “Oh look, it colics,” isn’t what I mean.
I too am all for gelding the studs, but did get into a minor pissing match with someone on The Huffpost, who thought I was trying to take destroy all the wildlife! I do have to say that culling the mares would take care of the problem faster. It’s been shown in managed Elk populations that if you hunt and kill the bulls, the population maintains, you start to kill the cows, the population diminishes. If they really want to cut down on the herds, spay the mares. IMHO.
Did you know if every man on the earth dropped dead, the human race would be able to repopulate itself, because of all the pregnant women? Amazing.
I think you are certainly right, but it is easier and cheaper to geld the studs instead of alter the mares. The thing about gelding is that it will need to be done with all the studs and all the newborn colts. If they alter the mares, then it would only need to be done once.
However, as with all great plans, there are a few down falls. What would happen to the pregnant mares? Abortion makes a lot of people feel squeamish and waiting until the foal is born would actually defeat the purpose, as it would not cut down the population quicker and more money would have to be spent on the fillies. Overall it is more expensive.
Secondly, a lot of people will ride mares & geldings, but a lot of people are afraid of stallions or would not want to work with them. Mares are thought to be much easier to handle than stallions. To make sales/adoptions easier, it makes sense if the stallions are gelded.
http://www.operationhorserescue.blogspot.com
Nah, it’s not like cats– it’s pretty easy to check and see if a mare is pregnant or not. While spaying is expensive, check the cost of keeping a mustang in a feed lot for a year, and that spay price starts looking awfully good. It’s not that I feel that ALL mustangs should be spayed or neutered, it’s that I think that both should be a logical next step before taking horses that are unadoptable and shoving them into feed lots and onto our taxpayer shoulders for the rest of their natural lives. The horses are miserable, we are paying through the nose to support them, and we still haven’t solved the basic problem, which is that without predators, the horse herd populations will grow faster than the land can support.
I’m not against spaying or neutering at all – in fact, I’m all for it. I just think that it would be cheaper and would be more effective to geld the stallions rather than spay the mares.
http://www.operationhorserescue.blogspot.com
There is no shortage of people who believe every animal needs to keep it’s balls to be happy. Someday, maybe they’ll all pull their heads out of their asses and figure it out. In the meantime let the smart ones geld, geld, geld. The fantasy of wild stallions running free with a herd is a romantic one but sadly not realistic. I (finally!!!!
) got my first horse last week. She is sound, sane, very well bred, very well mannered, 5 years old and had to be gone from the track NOW! Several people have already asked if I plan to race her. I said no she’s retired. OH? Then I must plan on breeding her. I said just as soon as there is a shortage of $500 horses and free horses. For the persistent ones, I tell them the slaughterhouses are full right now, so no rush. That opens up an interesting chat and hopefully more people learn from it.
How do I change my avatar?? Much as I love my old friend, I would love to put up a picture of my new girl. I can’t figure it out
Yeah, I don’t get the uproar over this either. I’m totally good with it. It’s not like they’re going out there and are going to cut Cloud or Conquistador or any of those horses. Plus, it’s easier to geld a stallion than it is to sterilize a mare, and they don’t have to bother the herds multiple times to keep the sterilization going.
Here’s my thing: I’m sick and tired of the bleeding hearts screaming about keeping the mustangs free because they’re an American heritage, and the west was won on the backs of mustangs. NO THEY’RE NOT, and NO IT WASN’T. Horses did not exist in North America until the Spaniards brought them over in the 1600s. The mustangs were their culls–the horses they set free because they weren’t worth shit to ride or train. Americans bought horses from the Spaniards, and if they caught and tamed mustangs, they only caught the good ones and let the rest free. I live where there are a lot of wild horses. I’m in Arizona and every time I take my horses riding at the Salt River, we see the mustangs. I love seeing them, but I wouldn’t touch them with a 10 foot pole to own one. They have horrible conformation, they have to live on crappy vegetation out here so they are scrawny and small, and they’re nutcases. They aren’t the fat, gorgeous, shinning horses we see on nature documentaries.
I do know of several mustangs that have been completely tamed, and one is a beginner safe horse. But I know just as many that could not be tamed at all. They were truly wild horses that absolutely could not stand confinement. They would just as soon kill you as to take a treat from your hand. I know several people who have been hurt really badly by trying to tame a mustang, whether it became safe to ride or didn’t. I don’t think it’s worth the risk for people to be working with them, because you never know what you’re going to get. I see mustangs as a completely different species from domesticated horses–they are wild and they should be left in the wild. So while I think mustangs are amazing and that they do deserve land to live on, I also believe that yes, the herds need to be managed. We don’t need the overpopulation of mustangs any more than we need it with stray cats and dogs and domesticated horses.
And I also love the bleeding hearts who scream about saving the mustangs yet go and sit down for a steak dinner. Seriously? The gov’t is getting hit hard by the beef industry because they need the grazing lands to keep up with demands of Americans for beef. So if you’re going to scream save the mustangs, put your money where your mouth is and stop supporting the group who wants the grazing lands.
Okay, I’m done. Sorry–I just had to rant.
The Spanish mustangs were not necessarily their culls. Some horses were turned loose when an exploratory expedition was finished or failed, or when a settlement failed. Some escaped. Some were ‘liberated’ by Indians. I do not have all of the historic details in my mind, but there was a major uprising in the Southwest whereby the Spanish settlers were driven out. Some of their horses were taken by the Indians and others were turned loose or escaped.
Even if some were culls, the culls of a good herd of horses are still good horses. During the 15th century, Spanish horses were considered by many people to be the best in the world. The English, from whom we have inherited many of our attitudes, did not necessarily agree. At one time so many good horses were being brought from Spain to the New World that the Spanish Crown outlawed it. By that time there were sufficient breeding herds on Hispaniola and in Mexico to maintain the North American population.
While the west may not have been won on the backs of mustangs, it was won (or whatever) on the backs of mustangs‘ ancestors. There is some modern breeding in the herds, but many of their ancestors were turned loose during the Dust Bowl, the Depression, and when everyone was replace their horses with automobiles, trucks, and tractors, so there was no market for them. These no-longer-needed horses and their predecessors transported people and good, pulled plows and caissons, and provided the ‘horse power’ that made this country what it is today. I think their present day descendants deserve more than being relegated to a few odd acres of land that the cattlemen do not want. I think they are an American heritage.
The only concern I’ve ever had about gelding, in terms of what can go wrong, is if the procedure is done incorrectly and the horse is left with some “material” left behind. This makes for one nasty horse. I totally support mass gelding of mustangs but I would certainly hope that qualified, experienced vets, who are comfortable and proficient at doing horses on the ground (as opposed to on an operating table) in a quick and easy fashion do it.
They used to drop the horse, hog tie it, cut the testicles off with a knife and then send the horses on their way, blood running all down their back legs. How much worse could it go?
I’m confused by what you mean. I’m talking about how a shoddy gelding job can result in a horse with a permanent attitude problem and that when gelding large numbers of horses that will be adopted by all kinds of people measurements should be taken to make sure that doesn’t happen.
And gelding surguries aren’t much different than what you described… drug the horse, wait till he lays down, tie up a leg, geld him, let him get back up. The end. What else is there?
A few people have mentioned gelding a stallion and releasing him could cause trouble for the new gelding. Maybe the “attitude problem” while being sterile would solve that. Maybe we need to give them vasectomies instead of taking their testicles.
‘Leaving something behind’ doesn’t make for a ‘nasty’ horse, that’s a bit of an old wives tale I’m afraid. It’s the testicles themselves that make the bulk of the testosterone, not the epididymus (which is basically there for storage), so as long as the testicles are gone, the hormone levels will drop and the temperament should become gelding-like.
As for what can go wrong, if the inguinal ring (the hole in the muscle that the testicles descended through) is damaged and/or enlarged, it’s possible for the intestines to drop through. Now, if this happens in a stud or a properly healed gelding, you get an inguinal hernia, which isn’t great but isn’t necessarily the end of the world if the gut doesn’t get entrapped. If on the other hand it happens when the gelding wound is still unhealed, the intestines litterally fall out and the horse ends up running through his own guts and draginin them out even more – a really nasty way to go. This sort of thing isn’t very common, but it’s a good reason why a gelding should be kept somewhere nearby until he’s healed.
On occasion, the wound will bleed excessively, sometimes to the point of death in really bad cases. Again, this is uncommon, and luckily it’s a lot less likely if the gelding is performed correctly. Other possibilities include the cut end of the nerve forming a neuroma, which is excruciatingly painful, however this can happen after the best surgery.
Claire Vale
Kahurangi Equine Rescue
New Zealand
I was Horse World Expo in Harrisburg, Pa in February and Tommie Turvey was doing a clinic. He said he was riding a BLM mustang. He has trained horses to do some incredible things. And his advice to the 2000 or so people at his clinic was to NOT get a mustang. He said that there were a lot of other horses out there that could be brought along a lot quicker and easier and better than the mustang. His point was that people have been breeding horses to do what we want/need them to do, while the mustang has not of that selective breeding and why would anyone who wants a good animal turn their back on all of the collective wisdom of the last 300 years.
Tommie is an expert horseman and has been training Blade for several years and now uses him as his primary movie stunt horse, but even with his experience the training was not an overnight job. He adopted Blade and two other mustangs at the same time. One had some sort of genetic problems and had to be put down the other was sucessfully trained and now belongs to one of his former interns. All three of the horses were gelded.
I wish we would take a look at the way other countries handle wild horses and ponies – deliberately improving them with careful management so that they become a valuable resource.
A friend of mine sent me a link to your post and asked me to share my Mustang success story. I have an 11 year old Mustang Stallion named Padre’ who I compete in Dressage, Dressage Sport Horse in Hand, ABRA Halter and Hunter Under Saddle as well as doing trail riding and special events. Not all Mustangs or their riders/handlers are created the same and I agree that it takes a special horse/person relationship to have success with a Mustang. In 2010, Padre’ became the first wild horse to qualify and compete at the most prestigeous Dressage show in the US, Dressage at Devon. Not only did he show but he won the 4 year old and older in hand only stallion class and he was named Reserve Grand Champion Stallion overall. He ended up the 2010 season ranked #14 by the United States Dressage Federation for Dressage Sport Horse Breeding Stallions. So far he has shown twice in 2011 and has been Grand Champion with a 75.75% and Reserve Grand Champion with a 72.75%. He is also currently schooling 4th level Dressage. You may be suprised when I tell you that I do not breed Padre’ because I think it would be socially irresponsible to do so because of the amount of unwanted wild and domestic horses already available. If he acted like a Stallion he would be a gelding but since I got him for free as a 7 year old, I did not have him gelded. I welcome you to check out his facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Padre/130599216986228 I post videos, photos and articles from the events and shows we are at as well as updates. Please feel free to contact me anytime with Mustang questions. pattibrutus2@aol.com
Saw you and him in Dressage Today. He’s a beautiful horse and you’ve done amazing work with him. We have a Padre too, though ours is a leopard Appaloosa.
I do tend to think though that you are a case of the exception that proves the rule.. as you said, most people would not have that kind of success, and with really well trained horses going for nothing or heading to slaughter, I don’t know that it’s at all possible to consider pitching Mustangs as a great investment to the average owner. I really don’t know what the best solution is, if there even is one.
I disagree. Perhaps in a way, a mustang that has been gentled and trained is the best choice for the average horse owner. What isn’t a good choice is going out and adopting a mustang when they haven’t been touched yet, and realistically, in that situation a green owner with a mustang is just an extreme example of the problems that occur when a green owner gets ANY unbroke horse. At least a mustang has grown up with a uniform code of living.
BLM Mustang adopter here. Any chance I get, I vocalize the need for gelding and for contraceptive shots for mares that are gathered and released. I have the same kind of pride in adopting my mustang as I would adopting a dog from our local shelter. She’s a mutt but I do believe she is the smartest horse I have ever encountered. She’s three now and I quickly determined the need for professional help in furthering her training, and I plan to find someone who has experience with mustangs (harder to find than I thought). They are more work. I do get so tired of these people who think the mustangs should just be left alone, to be “free”. If these herds are not managed (gathered and gelded/administered contraception/ or euthanized as needed) the horses will DIE. We are not “saving” them by not managing their numbers.
Do we HAVE an equine contraceptive vaccine? If not, I think we need one…not just for the wild mustangs, but because I can think of all kinds of management situations where temporarily sterilizing a mare would be useful.
You know, when I was young and stupid, er I mean idealistic, I had dreams of getting a wild Mustang so I could “Love him, and Squeeze him, and call him George” however, now that I am older, I do not even want to deal with a mare with pissy tude. My point is, I do not want to break my neck with a wild horse. I see them as both beautiful and a real problem. I don’t know about gelding them all, but I don’t see problem with gelding most. Why not? Every day I see horses on Craigslist hanging out in the kill pen that I would love to have in my pasture. The fact that they are there is testimony to a problem not going away anytime soon. Decreasing the population of horses right now is not a bad idea.
I’ll bet a lot more of the horses you see on Craigslist and in the kill pen are Thoroughbreds and Quarter Horses than mustangs. It would make more sense to geld all of the Thoroughbred and
Quarter Horse stallions. That would do a lot more to decrease the population of horse right now, which is not a bad idea.
PLEASE come geld the male mustangs around where I live in Idaho and ride my 13 year old hussy BLM mare- I don’t ride alone where the herds run in Owyhee County. NONE of the locals will care and we will keep our mouths shut. I “trained” my mare myself but that is putting it lightly- when she is flying her mustang flag it is an ordeal to get her to do anything she doesn’t want to do. I honestly don’t think if I was ever out alone riding and the local boys showed up that she wouldn’t defect in about a second from all the care and attention I give her to go run with the band. Even if they don’t show up or approach if I just got dumped for any one of many reasons and there wasn’t a trail buddy familiar horse to stick to she might go native till she was recaught and naturally she would come home packing a little 11 month time bomb and a big smirk on her ” I said no more babies for you” face. As much as I love her I know her enough to pick my battles- when she is really spinning and obsessive about anything I am not the rider I need to be to stay in control. One friend who lives right ajacent to the BLM ground has had to give up trying to keep mares because of the persistant local wild boys.
I agree, and don’t understand what all the fuss is about either. I would think they’d be all over an alternative to the roundups…but I’m willing to bet 99% if those objecting haven’t cone any closer to an actual mustang than their Breyer collection.
And IMO…a mustang is not a breed. It’s what you call a wild horse…if you afoot or buy one that once was wild, you have a mustang. If you got one that was deliberately bred, it’s a grade.
Lol love this.
I never understood why they not only geld the less than stellar studs but also inoculate (birth control) the mares that are also less than stellar. Leave the studs they cut as proud cut so they have a chance at survival but can’t breed. From what I have read, the shot lasts for a few years+ on deer and the island ponies out east. No need for holding pens after a few years because the breeding, and therefore numbers, will be drastically reduced while preserving only the best specimens.
But that would put too many people out of jobs I guess and less reasons for certain people to bitch and complain.
When the horses are gathered, the BLM is supposed to return the best horses to the HMA and remove the more ordinary ones for adoption. For a variety of reasons, that has not always been done and the quality of some of the herds has suffered as a result.
I love this idea. I don’t know why we didn’t think of this before.
I’m that chick who always dreamed of owning her own mustang…heck, who hasn’t at some point? I love mustangs. They’re great little hardworking horses. This isn’t against mustangs at all.
Americans are experts at taking words like “dream” and “spirit” and twisting them and molding them into blaring icons of stupidity, ignorance, and irresponsibility. We do it every day…it’s our “right” to do this and that! We should be able to!
Let’s be responsible for once and work so that mustangs aren’t in surplus and the BLM will not have as many “issues” as people claim it does today. The mustang surplus itself is the cause of many “issues”- not the BLM. The BLM is trying to handle it. We’re trying to handle it.
I would LOVE to see a world where we didn’t HAVE to do this…but this is where we are now. It’s not “natural,” but neither is the overpopulation. I’d love to see herds of mustang stallions running across the prairie, but that’s not feasible and responsible. We’re not killing them. Having herds of mustang stallions running rampant is no different than hoardes of ungelded colts and stallions churning out babies in people’s literal backyards. We’re so eager to geld those guys…why can’t the mustangs have the same treatment?
If you understand mustang herds their whole dynamic is based on mares, band stallions and gangs of young waiting in the wings bachelors. If they are gelded Mother Natures design is ripped to shreds. ??
I agree entirely.
There is a massive overpopulation problem so why shouldn’t something be done about it?
I’m Australian and over here we’ve had similar debates raging on and off over the years. There are a large number of moronic, ‘oh but they’re wild and free and part of our heritage!’ types who seem utterly incapable of recognizing that sure, horses are lovely, but over here there is clear evidence demonstrating that when they overpopulate an area, they severely harm out native wildlife, not to mention the landscape itself via erosion. But clearly that is not as important as OMG PONIEZ!!!!!!!!!#&@$^&!!!!
If it were possible for all excess mustangs/brumbies/whatever to be rounded up, retrained and rehomed into loving families, I’d support it. Unfortunately we do not live in the land of ponies that live on sunshine and rainbows. Gelding is a fantastic idea. And you know what? If that can’t work for whatever reason, I don’t have a massive issue with humane culling. If it prevents them dying from starvation every winter, or driving far rarer species to extinction, then it’s worth it.
Ceara, you live on an island. Enough said. lol
Well, the government is always capable of messing up the simplest tasks, but in this case, I think it is a no brainer.
If a mustang has only two options– spay/geld and release back into the wild, or live the rest of its life in a feed lot– then by all means, spay/geld, and then let it run free again. I honestly don’t know why when they do round ups they don’t simply keep and adopt out the young ones, spay/geld the older ones that aren’t adoptable, and return them to the wild. It would take a few years, but the population could be very easily controlled that way, with MUCH less taxpayer money used for feeding animals in a feedlot that have NO business spending the rest of their lives in a feedlot.
I owned a lovely mare who was a two year old capture, and was trained before I bought her. She was amazing– totally safe for children, great quiet ride, and she is in her 20′s and still going strong as a 4-H and trail horse. I know of other mustangs who turned out great, and there is absolutely something to say for buying a horse whose worth is in its hardiness and good common sense. I’m completely fine with allowing mustangs to continue in the wild, with adoption of very young mustangs. I just don’t see the point of rounding up large herds and then ‘boarding’ them in feed lots for the rest of their lives.
I am in British Columbia, Canada and the Mustangs here, in Alberta, are few and far between and the government wants to cull them because they are encroaching on ranch lands. HUH? THEY are encroaching on OUR land? Should be the other way around. Here, I think they should leave them alone. In the US, if they are in abundance then gelding may be the answer. IMO, gelding puts a horse in unknown territory. They are too docile to fight a stallion, but don’t quite fit in with the mares either. I hope it works out for the horses’ sake.
hmm… while I agree on the sentiment towards gelding, I have trained a lot of Mustangs and have found them EASIER than most TTTBs. Sorry to say but 90% of the time they have a better brain with every bit the talent (granted you get the body type you are looking for). There are gaited mustangs, drafty mustangs, tb-like mustangs, qh type mustangs… and so on and so on. I have only been kicked badly once and it was my own fault being harder on a still-wild horse than I should have been. Lesson learned and now I am a better trainer for it. I was actually injured less than the time my OTTB spooked at the breeze, bolted across the arena, spun out from under me, and drug me like an idiot around the arena. Once you earn their trust a Mustang will do their best to NOT hurt you. Granted they are trained correctly. Like any breed, there are individuals that are better minded or not as great minded, but I’ve found many more better minded mustangs than I have OTTBs. And this is coming from someone who also loves OTTBs.
No, I own gaited horses, and there absolutely are not any gaited wild mustangs. There are gaited mustang crosses and gaited mustangs that are home bred–some of the Spanish mustangs exhibit four-beat gaits. But there are absolutely no gaited wild mustangs. Gaited horses are a completely domesticated breed, created by humans by breeding smooth moving horses together over time to create the four beat gaits. These horses do not exist in the wild. Now there might be pacing wild mustangs, but none that are truly gaited.
Gotta disagree with you here, but only because we have herds here in Florida that are most definitely gaited. Cracker breeders will probably get pretty pissed for calling their breed mustangs… but that’s pretty much what they are – gaited mustangs. They do it naturally, in the wild, generation after generation.
Of course, the herds here are much, much smaller. So much so that I only found out there are still wild herds a couple years ago, and I was born and raised here. I have no idea how they’ve managed to keep the population down – apparently they only catch and adopt out a few every few years – though there’s also talk of culling out all the males and pairing the herds down to a few fenced-in individuals. That I think is taking it a bit TOO far… but yeah… I can’t see the problem with doing it on a large scale out West.
Some of the Cracker breeders probably would get pissed at you for calling their horses mustangs because they have been breeding them domestically in their family for generations. They are (mostly) pure descendants of the horses the Spanish brought here.
The Marsh Tacky is another gaited Spanish strain that a few die-hard families have continued to breed. There are feral Tackys as well.
There are also some Spanish Banker ponies that include some gaited horses. They are not as strongly gaited as the Tackys and the Crackers, probably because they have done more breeding without humane intervention.
Aye, I worded that a bit weirdly. The Crackers being bred as domestic riding horses, it makes sense that they’re of a particular type (there are people who breed mustangs of particular type as well). I mean that there are feral herds out there that are basically Florida’s mustangs that are gaited and continue to be so unregulated in the wild.
I went out and met some feral Cracker herds a few months ago. My first wind of them was when I was looking for a spot to camp and found Paynes Prairie. When I found out they had buffalo and feral horses I was all over that and started doing research… only to find out they were planning on culling them out of existence. So I decided to try and see them before they were gone for good. I was absolutely *amazed* at how good those horses looked. There was one stallion in particular that I wanted to just take home with me – big black fat shiny thing. He walked right up to me, looked me up and down, then casually herded his band off, all of them doing a pretty Spanish walk. I’ve been trying to follow their plans to figure out what they’re planning and see if they plan on adoptions or what, but everything seems to be very hush-hush :/
In a similar vein, what you’d said below about reading they’re planning on a total cull of the Mustangs – do you have a (preferably drama/sensationalism free) link I could read, or where I might start finding out about that? That seems… yeah, bad. I’m all for herd control/paring down, but total cull is just bad.
I never knew there were buffalo in Florida! I can’t imagine why they would want to get rid of them. I would expect them to be a big tourist draw.
Have you come across the Florida Cracker Horse Association (www.floridacrackerhorses.com/)? I assume they are monitoring any plans to remove the wild horses. The American Livestock Breeds Conservancy (www.albc-usa.org/) may be, as well.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/an216 is a University of Florida Extension publication on the Florida Cracker horse. It says that the Payne’s Prairie herd is the largest of the non-private herds. It would be a shame if it were removed.
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20110807/articles/110809592?p=2&tc=pg is a recent newspaper article about Cracker horse breeders.
See how easily I take off on a tangent! Now back to the subject at hand. (Who knows when I will get to bed.)
I read about the BLM horse situation on theHorse.com. Some of the articles are available to members only. One of the herds they were planning to turn into a sterile herd was the White Mountain herd which has an appropriate management level of 205 – 300 horses, making it one of the few genetically viable BLM herds.
Another proposal was to turn it into a minimally reproducing herd with 177 gelding and 97 breeding horses. This would have also turned it into a genetically non-viable herd.
It would make more sense to me to return 200 breeding animals, mares treated with contraceptive, and 50 – 100 older and/or ’plain’ gelding to the HMA. This would avoid sending the geldings to long-term holding. I think that the contraceptive vaccine lasts 3 years. If so, the mares would breed again in 2014 and have their first foals in 2015. In 2016 -2017 there would be enough young horses to warrant another gather. The best youngsters could be returned as replacements for any breeding animals that had died in the interim. The poorest of the colts could be gelded and returned to replace any gelding that had died. The rest of the youngsters could put up for adoption at an age when they are most adoptable. The mares could again be given contraceptive before being released and the cycle repeated.
As to how the gelding would fair in the feral herds – during the days of the open range, didn’t ranchers turn their gelding loose when they did not need them? They would have been essentially running feral with the ranches’ breeding stock until brought back in for use. They seemed to do O.K.
Anyone can read these articles:
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=18618&src=topic
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=18654&src=topic
This article is for members only:
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=18508
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20110323/ARTICLES/110329744 <— that is the newest article I can find. Apparently 'up to' 60 bison and 16-30 horses are too many for 22,000 acres. They've apparently been afraid that the bison or horses might get out on the street and cause trouble, which has happened once in 40 years. However, apparently a bison got out a couple months ago (can't find that article – my husband told me about it so I'll see when I get home if he has the link) and they're using that as justification to removing the herds faster now. They also stated environmental concerns, though all 'environmental' problems I saw while there were man-made. :/
I've tried contacting the Florida Cracker Association with no response.
As for the Mustangs – your plan makes a lot of sense, at least on paper. That sounds like too much actual management for the bureau of land management though XD
Interesting that they refer to the plan to get rid of the animals as a ‘management plan’. They do say it is the final management plan. Maybe that is like the final solution.
‘Gaited horses are a completely domesticated breed.’
Mustangs are also completely domesticated. They are feral, not wild. They all originate from European stock. I’m not sure about gaited mustangs in feral herds, but I guess that would depend on the stock that formed the earlier populations of these herds.
I totally want a gaited mustang.
Most of the mustang herds are already below the size that is genetically sustainable. Gelding some of the stallions would further reduce the gene pool. I do not know in which herds they are planning to geld horses. It wouldn’t hurt the few larger herds. I don’t see the point, though. The number of foals is determined by the number of mares of reproductive age. Gelding some of the stallions would not reduce the reproductive rate.
I have read more on this situation since first reading this post and making the above reply. I see that they were planning to geld all of the stallions and create a non-reproducing herd. This means that once those horses died, the herd would be gone (zeroed out, in BLM parlance). Actually, as much as the Mustang Maniacs are against it, I think some of the herds are going to have to be zeroed out, so that others can be increase to genetically viable size. However, one of the herds they were considering gelding is one of the few herds that is at a genetically viable size, so that makes no sense.
Sounds good to me! Why does anybody need a mustang stallion? They would be much more managable and useful as geldings, assuming a person could actually get one trained. We adopted a few mustangs a long time ago and could train the yearling filly but couldn’t do much with the grown mare. Didn’t take us long to figure out that we really didn’t want to work that hard.
I personally do not have a problem with them gelding the stallions. I mean we do have an over abundance of mustangs, and they are not easy to train and only experienced horse owners should have them! Spoiling a mustang is not taming it! I saw that about a year ago, a lady could only get one of her four mustangs that she had brought home as a weanling to remotely listen when given treats or grain.
The horse was dangerous! It would try to run you down and would back up to kick you!
But what I do have a problem with is the BLM selling 46 mustangs to a known KB! http://horsebackmagazine.com/hb/archives/10582 That should not be happening!
idk about some people, but i think Most things Should be gelded. my only concern would be to lose the whole breed all togeather, like the government going overboard. Some of those mustangs are beautiful, and dont we learn things from watching them, along with seeing how their body changes to their enviorment to survive? didnt we learn more about natural hoof care compaired to shoes? (im not trying to be a brat, thats just what i Think i remember? mind its been awhile.) I just, would hate to lose the Whole breed, and have the wild mustangs go extinct, because they are part of our history, just like TB, and QH, and a lot of other ones. *shrug* my 2 cents, but i agree most Should be gelded, because we Do have a over load. (sorta same thing with cats, i think 95% should be spayed / neutered, making sure the better health / qualitys are kept, just like how it SHOULD be with ALL breedings.) *goes and hides now*
I think that gelding them is a great idea, after all, how many mares can one stud cover–oh, A LOT.
But since geldings typically lose to stallions in hierarchy, would we be sending them out for a harsh end? Or if they lose their harems, just form bachelor bands? That’s probably what they will do, unless they have the will to fight to keep their ladies. I’m just playing devil’s advocate.
Oh hn, we can’t geld them, because some good ole boy might catch one and assume it’s an escaped ranch hoss, and git his neck broke jumping on ‘im. That’s why.
And yes, I can forsee the government mucking this up badly, as they do everything.
Speaking of mustangs–I read that the Michigan Mustang Starver got away scott free. AC says they have no evidence to convict her, despite at least three dead horses, and many others with very low BCS. I notice she’s been well fed. And her own horses looked fine on tv, she just didn’t feed the mustangs. She pointed to one on tv and said that it had strangles, shipping fever, and pigeon fever and that’s why it’s skinny. I hope that was past tense, since the horse was turned out with the rest of the herd. I didn’t notice any healing pus pockets or anything on that horse either.
And AC also said in an another interview that they didn’t have the money to seize the horses, so they weren’t going to do anything in this case. Including following up on the mustangs with the people who took them off the MMS’s hands. They did say they’d had hundreds of calls from around the country wondering why charges hadn’t been brought, and they are ignoring them now.
There’s a petition out there to get her charged. Probably won’t do any good.
I think many of the folks who are yelling the loudest about this issue don’t have a clue about what life is really like on the open range out here. It often isn’t pretty. If a horse could be given the choice between starving and dehydrated out on the Nevada desert and having it’s nuts cut off…I am pretty certain the horse would go with the nuts being cut off.
Our government is certainly flawed. No doubt that, regardless of your political persuasion. BUT…our government is capable of doing many things well. We all hear about the costly toilets and the pointless bureaucracy, but there are also many programs that run without a hitch. We just never hear about those agencies and offices because they aren’t considered “news”. So I am not as quick as some to automatically believe by default that my government is incapable of doing ANYTHING right.
“I think many of the folks who are yelling the loudest about this issue don’t have a clue about what life is really like on the open range out here. It often isn’t pretty. If a horse could be given the choice between starving and dehydrated out on the Nevada desert and having it’s nuts cut off…I am pretty certain the horse would go with the nuts being cut off. ”
That is TOTALLY what I think!
So let me get this straight. The government is finally trying o start a program to geld Mustangs and people are protesting against it? O…. K….
Maybe those are the same people that say that America is god’s land and anything anti-american is anti-god. And since Mustangs are and American breed then gelding them must be anti-american. It’s really the only plausible explanation I can find for that.
Very OT and not horse related, just stupidity related:
http://www.catholicintl.com/galileowaswrong/index.html
The problem isn’t that they want to geld SOME of them, it’s that they want to geld ALL of them. Basically, they’re trying to eradicate them so that ranchers can have the land, in direct violation of the Wild Horse act (can’t remember the act’s exact name).
But if there’s like a ton of them that no one wants, what is the problem with eradicating the wild ones? Someone will always breed them in captivity. It doesn’t hurt to never be born, that’s not cruelty.
Um, yuck. You would be fine with there being no Mustangs at all?
Mustangs should exist for the same reason any other horse breed exists; because a demand exists for them from horse owners.
If no demand exists, then yes, I am fine with them not existing. Why do we want to have a whole bunch of horses there are no homes for?
I think that a demand does exist, but it is a small, niche market and therefore right now we have a huge surplus and that needs to be cut back so that the horses that do exist can find good homes and be properly cared for.
No, I do not think we need to have wild horses, any more than we need to have wild dogs or wild housecats. If you want to see the beauty of a horse running at liberty, turn one out in the pasture and you can watch to your heart’s content.
Good gravy for FUCK Sake! What don’t you understand?
THEY ARE BEING REMOVED, CASTRATED AND DYING Now! What don’t you understand about this 100% sterilization plan that included fucking MARES!!!!!~!~???????!!!! SPAY/Neuter the one particular ENTIRE herd in the field! They wouldn’t be a problem if they were not removed or considered a problem in favor of meat livestock and extraction. I have no problem with reduction and some contraception, etc but you are missing the entire point of the 1971 Act.
You think they are feral. Fine. I don’t and in addition, the Feds and states are NOT FOLLOWING THE FUCKING LAW!!!!.
As a rule, I find your commentary very informative and more than helpful, but in this one you, yourself said ” I ain’t got the time to investigate the “drama” “…you don’t find that problematic? But you found the time to throw the poop on the wall? You took multiple days to posts comments. Fine. I get it. You don’t have the time. I realize you are not a role model. But I still respect your opinion.
Then don’t put shit up….especially shit rebuttal delayed.
AND a BIG FAT FUCKING P.S……they ain’t there for you, me or any other domesticated horse genius, savant or idiot. They are there because they made it…on their own. How about that? The problem now is about why, how WE have removed them. You know the law, regs, ETC?? You’re a legal person…WTF happened? How about inhumane treatment? How about government fraud, waste and abuse? And your HMA/HA, NEPA, census data knowledge is what?
Please feel free to edit, spell and grammar check my post and use it as ammunition in your reply. I could care less. I’m just disappointed in the post and the lack of …well, what could I call it? … non-factual, scientific, legal foundation uninformed logic? One man’s trash is another Man’s treasure?
When did you become a wildlife biologist/anthropologist/environmentalist? Yeah…I got it. You never said you were, but now you are when it comes to wild equine management in the US and “Oh golly gee, geld them all”….because we can?
Let’s put it this way: DOI/USDA do math like Dean Solomon(whatever the drama, fat-ass queen’s name is). Does that make this any more understandable for you?
Best of luck, a good future because I know you are a good horse owner and person. As to this post? Well, we all make mistakes.
I respectfully disagree. I think that adopting a mustang is a GREAT choice, and not what I would call a niche market, any more than buying a miniature horse, a Fresian, or an OTTB is a niche market. More importantly, mustangs offer a style of horse that you just can’t find anywhere else, short of maybe one of the bigger ranches that leaves their horses until they are two, then brings in the ones that survived.
There IS a demand for these horses, but the BLM does not manage them by rounding up the two year olds and yearlings. They round them ALL up, and when a horse is over a certain age, they label it as unadoptable and drop it in a feed lot. It’s pretty silly management– seriously, you leave your average TB out in a gigantic pasture with no interaction with humans until it is 7 years old, and see how easy it is to break. A horse that has been wild for that many years has a lot of set behaviors that it isn’t easily willing to give up, so it makes it harder or impossible to train. This is true of ANY breed of horse. It’s just that with mustangs, instead of sending the older horses back out, they keep them and drop them in feed lots. They aren’t unadoptable because no one wants them– they are simply too old to easily and safely train. Even then, like with everything else the government does, it’s not like they hire Buck Brannaman or someone else intelligent to screen the horses and figure out which ones are suitable for training– they check ages, and go, “Welp, too old to adopt out” and off it goes to a feed lot.
We would save millions of the older horses were spayed or neutered, and released, while the younger horses that could be adopted were sent to a base program and then offered for adoption.
There’s not a demand for “Mustangs”. there’s a demand for wild horses. Big difference. And many adopters, such as myself deride just as much pleasure from watching my horses relatives as I do riding my own horses themselves. I learn a lot about horse behavior – it helps give you a unique insight. I like watching them and heck, I’m starting to make money selling my photography. Should we eliminate all the deer and the wolves and the bears as well? How is gelding all the stallions in a herd, eradicating the horses on a million acres of pulic land any more acceptable? Because you personally don’t get enjoy them? Because if I drive 15 hours farther I can find some other herd in Nevada? No thanks. I like these guys and they are quite healthy and will continue to be, thank you very much.
Bonus point! The agency is claiming these horses increased an average of 65% a year since the last roundup. Are there really that many out there? Are they really overpopulated when Chubs is so big looks like he ate a cow (and actually earned himself a name) this summer, or when the foal count this year is less than a 10% increase? Or is the BLM abusing their power and playing the American public like a fiddle?
Eradicate the Mustang because there isn’t a “demand” for them? What the hell? A mustang is a wild animal that has just as much right to be wild as any other. It’s like comparing wolves to dogs. Just because it’s a horse, doesn’t mean it’s the same thing as a quarter horse.
Nothing I dislike more than someone that practices horse-snobbery. Just because it’s not your preferred breed, it shouldn’t exist.
The Mustangs have more rights to graze the land than the cattle do. Do they starve at times, Yes. Do they fall prey to predators or perhaps die painfully after a stallion clash, yes. But that IS natural selection. Being run to death by a helicopter, or starving in a BLM holding pen is NOT.
I apologize for using one of the five liberally tossed in words, but people see the mustangs as a symbol of freedom and a legacy of days gone by. I personally see them as a quasi-invasive species brought over by the Spanish Conquistadors. I’m fairly sure the indiginous natives of the southern US down through South America wouldn’t have anything good to say about THOSE guys.
I am all about saving the wolves and encouraging them to repopulate in spite of the asshats who want all the large game so they can go trophy hunting. They are a NATIVE species and a valuable part of the food chain. They can actually survive in the wild and live fairly well, circle of life and all that. I was told that most of the wild mustangs don’t live past 10 years old. Considering how many horses I know that are domesticated and at least twice that age, I think that it’s fair to say the horses don’t live nearly as well in the wild.
I don’t agree with gelding the mustangs (and letting the herds die out) so some rich guy with more cattle than he can support on his own land wants the federal land to graze cattle at a bargain basement price. I also do not agree with letting the horses stay there simply because they are pretty. They are a drain on limited resources and other than looking at them, no one wants to deal with them. But the reason why it’s going to the government to do something about the horses is because of the cattle industry.
Gelding them is a lot more humane than rounding them up annually (with a price tag with about six zeros BEFORE the decimal point) or aerial shooting. In ten to twenty years there may not be any more wild horses, which might be sad because yeah, they are part of our history, but how much sadder is it when the mustangs go to slaughter because no one wants them?? There are (estimated in 2007) approximately 29,000 wild mustangs living on public land. According to Market Research Statistics (also in 2007) done by the AVMA, there are 7,295,000 horses living domestically in the US. Only 1.8% of American homes have horses.
Maybe we should stop worrying so much about this “symbol of freedom” and worry about making homes for the horses that are already domesticated and need homes. And we ALL know that the horses that go to slaughter aren’t just the unbroke, unhandled fugly ones. There are all kinds of horses – 92% are in good shape (according to the HSUS).
Maybe instead of gelding them we should just start abducting the foals. -.-
and while I was looking stuff up I ran across this: http://www.wildhorsepreservation.org/news/2011/01/07/report-from-the-horse-slaughter-summit/
“Horse slaughter proponents are: [...] Deceptively focusing on horse welfare as the justification for reinstating horse slaughter”
Well if it’s for the welfare of the horses then eating them must be a good thing, right? Why don’t we apply that to the rest of the American human population as well? How about we help those who can’t pay for health insurance by killing them too? Wouldn’t that just solve all the welfare problems of America?
UHhhhh…they DO geld mustangs. UHHHhhh and sterilize mares (reproducing fillies and mares) NOW. UHHHhhhh…this was going to be the biggest castration event, IN THE FIELD ever seen (and they were going to SPAY females). UHhhhh…they don’t care enough about the intact ones properly after roundups and or short or long term holding (who also get sterilized and vaporized). UHhhhh…they got a bad mortality rate? UHhhhh….they never have enough vets? UHhhhh…they NEVER have enough caretakers on site 24/7? UHhhhh…they treat them like cattle at a feedlot.
But let’s move on……no validated population counts, free-roaming OR in holding. No penalties for injuries or mortality of roundup wild equines. But expense of WHB program to protect livestockers and energy/extraction interests on public land that NEVER carry their weight in costs and export a TON of their product. Another BTW…DOI/USDA don’t use science and violate their own regs, laws and EAs/NEPAs.
But I’m sure you know then me. I would say more, but understand the attention span regarding long posts.
BTW…this just broke a few days ago: seems there is a back door slaughter pipeline for wild equines (let’s not even discuss Big Bend wild burros).
Sorry…should read “..but I’m sure you know more than me…” (must be that psychotic rainbows, butterflies and unicorn stuff leaking out of me…..NOT)
Forgot to add…if you can’t get the existing numbers right, how can I trust that you will handle a basic medical procedure right? This is about the 1971 ACT and the violations of same, to include Burns’s shit that aborted the ACT.
I am also not a rainbows and butterflies, all the pretty ponies dipshit.
This is a bullshit agency whacking and polluting tons of America’s lands and resources, to include wildlife born out of the Depression. They have shown their incompetence (drug/bribery scandals, Gulf Oil disaster, etc). Remember, these MFs handle Native Peoples too. And what a FINE, fine job they have done with humans to boot.
I would appreciate the opportunity to hear any contrary position.
p.s. I’m not against death, birth control, etc….what I’m against is the USDA/DOI BULLSIT.
Without researching the reasons myself (I’m much rather spend the time riding), I’ve heard in the past that gelding mustangs is fought because it will ruin the “natural” instincts/herd dynamics to have geldings loose on the range ie. the intact stallions will beat the crap out of the geldings and the geldings may not be accepted into the bachelor bands. My opinion: Geld them
Yes, geld them! It should be just like any other rescued pet. Nothing leaves intact. While they’re at it, they should use the mares to perfect spaying techniques as well! Nothing would make better sense. They could even catch, spueter and release if they wanted (after giving each a chance to be adopted while they’re healing), thus saving both the expense and unpleasantness of warehousing unadopted mustangs in corrals.
I absolutely and totally agree with you. Gelding mustangs is a wonderful idea–granted there may be a certain amount of mortality, but how many adopted mustangs end up in the kill pen because the owners can’t do anything with them? How many die of starvation or exposure in bad winters? The few that might die from gelding is a small price to pay for humanely controlling the population. And absolutely no one should be allowed to breed them. I stopped supporting Dayton Hyde’s refuge in South Dakota the day I heard he was breeding mustangs. Not to mention the fact that “mustangs” aren’t a breed in any way, shape, or form–granted they have to be tough to survive, and that’s a valuable trait, but other than that they are the Heinz-57 of the horse world, descended from whomever happened to get loose. Breeding them is absurd when there are already too many and they are genetically unpredictable.
But I have to say, you need to update your list to FOUR, because I’ve done it too. My mustang Joe is an awesome horse, an especially excellent trail horse, and when I got him he was an extremely wild four-year-old (he was “adopted” at 2, turned out into a pasture, and got no further handling until I bought him from the adopter). I did get hurt, but only a little and easily mended.
–Trurl
I don’t know the full story, but if it’s geld and release, I don’t see that it would cut the numbers much, as the ones who are still entire would gain the herds and sire the foals. If it’s a plan to vasectomise but otherwise leave males ACTING entire, and release, then vasectomised males would be able to claim mares, but would then not sire foals from them, and the numbers of foals born per year would decrease.
Are they going to attempt to geld ALL of them or just a certain percentage? It would seem to me that if the plan is to geld every last one then within a short amount of years there would be no mustangs at all. With no stallions, no new wild mustangs would be produced and thus the wild herds would become extinct as the living age and die off.
If they are just going to geld enough to maintain a smaller but steady population then I see no problem with it at all.
That they will screw it up is probably the biggest concern. I don’t believe for a minute that the mustang is vastly overpopulated. I think that is an exaggeration put out by the government to try to justify the roundups. It’s all about money, the government makes money (not really, but they believe they do) on cattle grazing, they don’t make any money on mustangs grazing. So they want to get rid of the mustang.
Mustangs may not win trophies at Belmont, but they win a lot at other venues: Here a Mustang wins World Champion in Western Riding: http://www.wildhorseandburro.blm.gov/spotlight/cowboy/index.htm
And here a Mustang is inducted into the 2001 Hall of Fame by the American Endurance Ride Conference (AERC) held in Reno, Nev., in March 2002. http://www.wildhorseandburro.blm.gov/spotlight/lady.htm
That’s just two of many. I don’t really care for TBs, but everyone has their own preference.
OT – need help…Can anyone recommend a good trainer in Eastern WA? We need trailer training 101. We’ve truly tried everything and had some good moments and now just %^$*! bad. She is not afraid, travels great with a buddy (not always possible). Thank you for your suggestions.
FUGS…what’s with the hang time on comments????
That’s why I’m selling the blog…I HAVE no time.
Sorry!
2 million wild equines at the turn of 1900, 71 thousand (debatable) when the 1971 Act was signed, 30 k plus in long term holding (and that is HIGHLY suspect) with approximately 30 k (probably less) free roaming on designated lands that are continually reduced, water on public lands fenced off and specious other criteria for removal. The problem is exacerbated by removing in large numbers in the first place….no, Ms Fugly…we don’t have TOO many wild equines; we have too many displaced and fucked with by humans wild equines. Manage them on the range with reasonable removal, training and adoption programs.
Can’t have intelligent debate or solutions without intelligent management and verifiable science (population counts for starters) with transparency. What do USDA and DOI have to hide?
Just look at the comments on this Website (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/cloud-wild-stallion-of-the-rockies/introduction/29/) and you get a good idea what kind of people you’re dealing with.
I watched that “Cloud – Stallion of the Rockies” documentary on PBS a year or two ago and was appalled that they left that horse out of the annual round-up because they were hoping he’d pass on his unusual color. (Not sure how “they” were; the BLM, I guess. And if even they “breed” for color – God help the poor mustangs!)
There are way too many people out there who anthropomorphize horses (probably the Natural Horsemanship and My Little Pony crowd).
Cloud was released because of the bad PR DOI/USDA would face at his capture, removal and holding. They did still capture and remove many in the Pryor Herd, regardless of the so called bullshit, rainbow and butterflies PBS Nature Special by Ms. Kathrens. And it was tough securing them for private grazing.
But you know us whacky, unicorn chasers.
I don’t understand the drama either. I read somewhere that the plan NOW is to use “birth control” to stem herd growth, but the BEST way to control births is castration, imho. However, I guess the logistics has the BLM flummoxed. I write a column for the local paper and get the BLM updates — mainly for wild horse and burro adoptions in our area. Recently there was going to be a “wild horse ‘gather’ with plans to relocate a herd” and the plans outlining the restrictions on “public observances of the ‘gather’” were parsed down to the last detail, complete with parking areas outlined (so as not to interfere with some endangered species’ habitats, etc.). I can’t remember if those “publics” interested in watching the gather had to have badges and undergo background checks, but it was almost that bad.
Leave it to the government to make a mess of ANYTHING it manages.
My guess is that gelding the boys would take away “something” from the mystique of the wild west, the herds of mustangs running free and breeding whenever they want, etc. I’m not saying it’s a good reason, but a likely one. Males have a really hard time dealing with neutering any other male creature.
I trly believe that ALL Mustangs provided to the public for adoption need to be gelded. Period! The PBS series about the colt/stallion “Cloud” had so many issues that were incorrect starting with the “White” Stallion when he was acutally a palomino, boggle the imagination. The photography was for a fact incredible and very well presented, but some of the comments were just a bit to “Butterflys and rainbows.” There there is a group who are DNA testing mustangs to prove their horses are decendents of the original Spanish horses brought to North America by Cortez. Problem here is that the grant monies ran out and these folks cannot seem to keep their DNA’d branded mustang ponies on their own properties and the local ranchers are to say the least “thrilled”. A WELL managed breeding program is a possiblity but so far I have not seen it. Then there is the factor that these wild bred mustangs are less the amicable to training…. It also adds up to more backyard junk to perpetualte an already glutted market.
Cathy – not only OT but important and a follow up on a terrible person you blogged about last year. Please read. This may be “nothing” but then again maybe it’s “something.” I recently learned that in old neighborhood (lived there about 13 years ago) a former business partner of Doug Spink has taken over an equestrian facility. This business partner or whatever, a woman, apparently “managed” Spink’s stallions or at least one of them, not sure if Capone was one. Anyway. She took the name of his old Washington state operation “three treasures” and she claims to be providing a sanctuary for old discarded show horses with opportunities for “disadvantaged youth” including “foster kids” to be with these horses. She has all kinds of fundraisers, usually monthly according to newspaper articles and local TV coverage, and her website shows some pretty impressive sponsors. Given Spink’s history and her long, um, “association” with Spink seems to me this is the last place that kids should be around but hey, that’s just me, I guess. Spink is in prison in Sheridan which is only about an hour give or take north of the stables being run by this woman. Her first name is unusual and will be easily searchable. There is something not quite right about this.
If she’s legit well great – though the stories she gives to local media shows she believes and is spreading around with all tragic sincerity that “all show horses past their prime are dumped” which ‘taint so, I should know, I have one in his 30′s and another was 36 when he passed away from complications of old age, and there are a lot of folks like me who take care of their old show horses forEVER so her stories are a little ingenuous prob’ly for fundraising purposes i.e. gaining “horrified sympathy” with resultant donations.
But that’s not the main issue, which is as I am a bit suspicious that maybe her “new” barn with the old ‘discarded’ show horses is really something else entirely….Don’t State agencies who place foster kids check on activities for said kids? Wouldn’t this woman expect to be “investigated” and surely her former activites with Spink would show up? I dunno. Something just isn’t right about the whole thing.
“Dear Government, if the Mustang Maniacs don’t want you gelding mustangs, could you geld all the non-stallion-quality males of EVERY OTHER breed at your expense? You just tell me where and I will have a line out the door waiting. Deal?”
——————————————————————————–
STARTING WITH CONGRESS.
OMG SO TRUE!!!
Let me sum it up for you:
1. The Mustang populations are grossly overstated by the BLM and the numbers of Wild Horses on Federal land is VERY inaccurate. There has not been a census taken for a very long time. Every time they go to round up a specific number of horses, they come up short because they can’t even find that many wild horses to remove.
2. The BLM wants to extinguish the herds off of Federal land so that land can be leased out to the large Gas and Oil companies both foreign and domestic for fracking. It used to be the Cattlemen’s Association that was doing the land grab, but now the Cattle Ranchers and the Gas & Oil industry are battling it out for the land. The Ranches are currently trying to extend their subsidized grazing leases to 20 years from 10 years because they know the Frackers are trying to glom the land. All of this rounding up, holding and feeding is being paid for by the Taxpayers to the tune of $80 million per year. The ranchers get to graze for less than $1.00 per acre and then get subsidies (check from our Government) for over $4.00 per acre. Good deal if you are a Rancher. Bad deal if you are a Mustang or a Taxpayer. Most of the new extraction leases for this Federal land has been to companies from China and other countries. Good deal if you are China and bad deal if you are on well water near a fracking mine.
3. The treatment of our Wild Mustangs and our Wild Burros is legal cruelty. Horses are rounded up in 105 degree heat and chased over 10 miles at a time in this heat during foaling season by helicopters. In the winter they are rounded up at temps below zero, loaded sweat soaked to the bone in stock trailers and transported 100s of miles only to die of pneumonia a week later. Their necks are broken during round ups, foals have their hooves run off, legs broken, mare abort etc etc. If this doesn’t upset the FuglyHorse there is nothing more I can say.
Please be responsible to get more facts before you post something like you put up above. There are many of us who read your blog.
Respectfully, G Taupin
Whoops sorry …… People are upset at gelding the Mustangs because the numbers are completely wrong about the populations. THEY ARE NOT OVER POPULATED! You cannot state that 700 horses need to be removed off a a piece of land and then replace those 700 horses with 40,000 head of grazing cattle. Yet this happens and people still believe the BLM that the horses are overpopulated. Seriously, they do believe this overpopulation BS. People are upset because this is an attempt to get rid of the wild mustangs and make our herds extinct. People are upset because of the cruelty that abounds with a simple round up, how do you think the gelding and spaying of mares will work out (yes, they have and want to spay mares). There now fully answered.
G. Taupin
To me, any horse that there is not a domestic home for is a surplus horse. I don’t want to see them starving to death. Someone needs to pay the bills.
This is what I am talking about. These Mustangs are NOT starving to death. People have read the propaganda somewhere from the BLM and still believe that they are starving. Look at round up photos of the Mustangs before they get to long term holding. They are beautiful and HEALTHY. They are unthrifty AFTER 30 days of being in long term holding, with problems we create (scours, thrush, pneumonia etc) After the Mustangs are removed from any area the are replaced with usually over 60 times the amount of cattle. If 700 horses cannot survive on said land how can 40,000 head of cattle survive on that same land? ….. The point is that they are lying to us. THE HORSES ARE NOT STARVING. Someone just wants their land.
The other issue of gelding is not that there is a problem with gelding …. there is a problem with the numbers of horses there actually are. They want to geld the horses when they are not overpopulated. THat means that the herd numbers will dwindle and die out. There are actually numbers of horses that are so low that gelding them will eliminate them. The wild mustangs are important to our heritage and important to many of us. They are stunning creatures that are the resistant and sturdy breed of the species that we all profess to care about. The blood line is historical and the genetic stock biologically viable. Meaning that man has not bred their feet out of them, HYPP into to them, they do not have all the weaknesses that man has put into our domestic horses. They are genetically strong enough to live in the wild and are a biological rock. Any and all of nature should be preserved. God has created them and we should not egotistically believe that any species should be eliminated because you feel they should only exist domestically.
OK, well first of all, I don’t believe in your God so you lost me there.
But secondly, I’ve read BLOGS with PICTURES where people were feeding the starving mustangs because they felt so sorry for them. So do not tell me they’re not starving or that they somehow magically never get injured. You know why you don’t see a lot of starving or injured ones? BECAUSE SOMETHING ATE THEM, because they were weak and couldn’t escape. Do you think that’s a good outcome?
AHA! Told ya the religious maniacs were behind all the drama!
I don’t care if you believe in God/god or any higher “being”. I do (so what…ain’t part of my debate) and don’t believe my belief in him/her makes my argument any less relevant because I believe it is up to YOU, ME and EVERY OTHER SWINGIN” VahJJ or RICHARD to clean up their act and/or the whackos screwing up the rest of the world. I have never brought it up in any of my posts save for expletives. Fine with me and it still doesn’t excuse illogic; in fact, all the more reason for logic to be employed with a bit of divinity (was that Rousseau or Voltaire?). Who cares?
This is about atrocious human behavior and really, really bad self-serving science (HAH!) for same.
Where do you get off determining starvation and intervention in a wildlife situation? Why are dumbfucks feeding “wild” equines, feral, whatever you want to call them as a yardstick for your “gelding”?…they think they are cardinals or raccoons? Why are photos from whoever, legitimate data that wild equines are dying from starvation in the wild…. legitimately? How can they be dying, starving and overpopulating (roundedup, PZP’d, long term/short term holding, abortions, adoptions, vaporized) all at the same time? How’s that science and math work out?
I’ll restate, wild equines are removed sterilized, vaporized on a regular basis…what is your bitch?…that they are still there? You understand the numbers? What is left? The HCH slaughter via the backdoor of these animals (that has NOTHING TO DO WITH GELDING) and no accountability for a government program funded by us/US that has no science, census and transparency plus mandated by law is a tiny problem?
Hope you are making progress on the blog sale.
Actually, Yes, I think a predator eating the weak and sick is fine. That’s nature, and that is the way to control the population. A mustang is a wild animal, if they survive, fine, if they starve and die, then the coyotes eat and survive. If they break a leg, or aren’t fast enough and a wolf takes then down, well that is survival of the fittest and wolves gotta eat too.
The thing is, man has disrupted the natural order, we have removed many of the large predators, it’s why we have so many deer around here to be hit by our cars. No natural predators to keep the numbers down.
I am against the gelding because it won’t work. You will never get them all, more colts will be born, and mares will find the stallions to be bred. I have had domestic mares break out of a pasture, travel 4 miles down the road and back up to a barbwire fence to be served. Nature will win, so let it.
If you must do something, give the mares contraceptives. The stallions can still herd them around, the bands will be intact, but no new babies for a few years.
If you must have an immediate solution, I vote a controlled hunt. A bullet is quick and cheap. We do this for deer, elk, etc, why not mustangs?
And I have seen these exact horses in the dead of winter earlier this year looking fat and sassy. What’s your point? That because some horses in some area at some point in time were thin we should get rid of the entire lot altogether and put them in government pends for the rest of their lives on our dime? How is exterminating the entire herd supposed to solve anything? It’s a weak argument at best.
I doubt anyone will read this post, but in an FYI sort of way– Starving wild horses are not usually a problem. Dehydrated wild horses are. Many travel a lot of miles to get to water, and when oddly, overnight, a fence has appeared around the water source, it can really mess up a horse’s system.
Gee… how DID that fence get there….?
Agreed! While certain areas may have more horses than the land can support, there is NO WAY this is the case for all Mustangs across the board. Mustang quality varies too – should I look at a picture of a crappy Mustang and claim that all Mustangs are of poor quality? No, because that’s just silly.
If a certain region can only support 50 horses, fine. Keep it at 50 horses. But horses should not be removed just so cattle ranchers can get more grazing.
God didn’t create mustangs. People did. The only truly ‘wild’ horse is the Przewalski, and it’s critically endangered. Want to save a monument to freedom and nature? Contribute to the rescue efforts to maintain them. All others are either domesticated or descendants of domesticated horses… such as the mustang in America. There is wild, and there is feral. They are not the same thing.
Take a look at the stunning ‘beauty’ of the Przewalski. Jug heads, 13 hands high. Efficient bodies for survival in a harsh environment, not for beauty or usefulness to humans. Not as charming saving them, perhaps, since you can’t adopt one to ride around on.
Sorry, but god (or whatever force you chose to believe in) has zero to do with this situation. It’s all on us.
Przewalski horses, they found out almost to late, there were only 9 stallions and like five mares left in captivity. When being captured most died from miss handling, only the young could survive capture and transportation. Many were lost, all of the wild ones had been caught and put in zoos. Two of the mares were to old to even breed. The had to rebuild the herd from outside animals. The Przewalski horse crosses has been successfully reintroduced back into its former environment. There is not a truly wild horse left in this world that has not been reintroduced by man.
GOD may have made them, but did not put these horses here in North America, MAN did. Man made the problem, man needs to fix it.
“GOD may have made them, but did not put these horses here in North America, ”
Well, he didn’t put US in North America, either, but we got here anyway.
I don’t believe that eradicating any species is our ‘right’ as I’m sure the Native Americans can attest to. Whoever believes that the only super-mammals are humans because of our superior brain development needs a kick in the chops IMO. There is only so much land and resources available on this earth and its supply is dwindling to a miniscule level. Nature has a way of keeping life – all life – in balance. We are the only living things that believe in our superiority and we are running every resource right into nothingness. Mustangs should not be eliminated any more than the buffalo, cougars, bears, etc. Mother nature isn’t always kind but what option is there? To kill all wildlife or cage them for our entertainment? We’ve tried battling nature for thousands of years and no matter how smart we think we are, hurricanes and tornados still hold the high candle to our efforts. God or no God, nature is what it is and we need to protect it because we are not the only living species deserving of the land! We’re the most selfish and greedy of course and the damage we are doing is pathetic. We all need to come down off our high horses and live simpler lives with less reproduction so that our species as a whole can survive. That will only be accomplished if we scrutinize every aspect of our lives, size of our families and use of resources. Eventually everything runs out – oil, gas, pastures, woodlands, air quality, water quality….until there’s nothing left. I hear all the hoopla about the Duggar’s and it makes my head spin. Talk about sticking their selfish heads in the sand! Put a dime between your knees sweetheart and hold it tight.
It breaks my heart to see the land disappearing at blinding speed and all the species along with it. Geld the Mustangs but never, ever eliminate them. There are people intelligent enough to plan for the which, when and how to keep the breed strong. Just hope like hell that they realize that strength isn’t always beauty as many of our purebred breeders propagating HYPP, HERDA, OLWS…etc.
UHhhh:
(1) they aren’t domesticated equines and I don’t want to debate domestic v domesticated because the horse meat eaters say they are not native (domestic?);
(2) what’s the home crap?….they have homes. The government says they ain’t got no room, no water, no forage and there are the just toooooo many wiping out the landscape when wild equines represent 1 to every 50-60 cows (not sure about sheep) and do some homework on AMUs. It is a joke and the cattle/sheep always come back;
(3) nobody is asking you to feed starving wild equines from my side of the fence. The government is telling you they are removing because they would/are starve/ing + water/drought+overpopulated (BULLSHIT) and then they die in roundups, holding, go sale authority and vaporize in other ways. If true starvation exists, naturally….then that is the way it is…BUT NOT WITH 60 MILLION FUCKING CATTLE AND SHEEP ON THE SAME LAND! They go, they go (wild equines). It’s not nice to mess with Mother Nature. If they starve, I would not be doing cartwheels, but I would rather have them die in the wild than the shit they are going through now.
(4) wildlife starves, get’s eaten, hit by bad weather/lightening ALL the time…..why are wild equines special for removal, but not for presence?,,,Oh, that’s right. Wild equines are not wildlife.
My question was, what is wrong with GELDING them so that there are LESS of them to be chased?
The problem is that twenty years from now there will be none to chase in these HMAs. The problem is that no one knows what these horses will do when they’re gelded and released. Let’s carefully study a small number that are gelded and released to see how they act/survive. Then we can talk.
All four horses in my barn are mustangs. One was adopted out of the corrals by a 14 year old girl and was gentled and trained by her. She’s a gem. I know many people who regularly train and place them (TIP program). I know no one who has been injured by a mustang that was properly handled straight out of the wild. The only mustangs I’ve seen that were dangerous were mishandled/neglected by clueless people. It takes time, but they can be brought back around.
That said, I have no problem with gelding wild horses, provided the ones choosing the horses (few) that remain stallions have a clue what they’re doing. I agree that having the government do the choosing can be a huge problem.
Then there’s finding a competent person to do the job. It’s not uncommon for a ‘gelding’ coming out of the corrals to still be running on one cylinder (either anesthesia was lacking and the horse left before he was done, or somebody can’t count to two).
I really have a problem with captive breeding of mustangs. The Kiger people are the worst for this. My own three mares would be spayed if 1) I could afford it, and 2) I wasn’t so fearful of major abdominal surgery — even laparoscopic — on a horse (culpotomy is out of the question – that’s just barbaric!)
There is a way to manage the wild herds that’s somewhere between the rainbow and unicorn mentality, and the ’round them all up and ship them to Mexico’ crowd chant. I shut down trying to make sense of the rhetoric from either side.
I also have to admit that I have not read up on the anti gelding protests, so I will limit my comments to my personal experience regarding wild horses.The area that I live in Penticton, British Columbia has what are called “wild horses” which is true in the fact that they are not handled or trained and live on their own with out any care from the “owners”. These are horses from the First Nations Reserves that are born on the range and occasionally rounded up to be sold either to rodeos for bucking stock or more often lately sold to slaughter. These horses are managed in that they are often rounded up for gelding of the ones that are not considered desirable for breeding, however this does not seem to have any effect on the herds interactions, BUT it is done very roughly and some horses do die during this process.
I have no doubt that if gelding had been done with the present BLM system and operators, there would have been deaths and trauma inflicted on these innocent animals and I think the reason this was protested is because of the present way the BLM captures and treats the horses, so how could you trust them to perform surgery on the horses and then released them with no after care.
From my pespective gelding would be desirable, but not under the present BLM management.
As far as training wild horses, yes it takes someone experienced, but the process is no different than for any untrained yearling that has been raised on a large acreage where the horses are out on pasture most of the time. It is not that difficult for someone who understands how a horse thinks and reacts to pressure and release. Yes it is true that you can get a horse that is already trained in todays situation, however that does not make these horses worthless. They have been born and if the option is the kill pen, well I personally believe they deserve a chance. I also believe that the people who do take courses and take the time to learn to understand how a horse thinks and does some work with an untrained, unsocialized horse will become so much more advanced in what ever discipline they are involved in. I am amazed at the number of people who have been around horses their entire lives and are so full of misconceptions about “wild” horses”. Any horse has the ability to hurt and injure people if put under to much pressure and this happens every day, because 90% of horse people, in my experience, do not really understand why a horse does what it does.
I presently have four rescued, formally wild horses in my backyard that if I did not tell you, no one would be able to tell that they were all born out on the range. I actually just came back from working with two of the wild horses from the Kamloops area in British Columbia and they are going to make great horses for the right person. No they are not as easy to find homes for but I could not turn my back on them and let them go to meat. I know lots of people in this area that have rescued local wild horses that think they are the best! And some have been trained as hunter/jumpers as well.If anyone wants to learn more about the wild horses rescued from slaughter in British Columbia visit http://www.critteraid.org and click on the Wild Horses Saved banner. You can also email me at projectequus@critteraid.org
From what I have read it is politics, politics, politics and crazy people wanting to let nature run it’s course.
I think Hillbilly Farm’s got it right:
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~masupple/hillbilly/testicle_drive.html
Don’t think I am brave enough to put a One Less Testicle bumpersticker on my car, though.
This is just like the BS going on here in Oz with the Hendra virus that is killing our horses, people and now a poor innocent dog! They are happy to put the dog down because he carried it, but they can’t POSSIBLY cull the bats which shed the virus and create the whole problem in the first place. The flying foxes (or fruit bats) are in plague numbers, and their pissweak excuse for not culling is that they “shed more virus when they are stressed so culling would make it worse.” WTF? So in the meantime our horses die, our VETS die from trying to treat the horses, and now some poor family have lost their dog who WASN’T EVEN SICK just because the poor bats get stressed????????
I hate all this bureaucratic bullshit. I wish people would wake up to themselves and stop being ruled by the vocal minority groups.
The ONLY possible negative I could see about gelding Mustangs is if it changes the behavior and affects the livelihood of entire herds as far as protection and guidance. I know the lead mare is a good substitute, and usually can and does lead the herd to remembered water sources, and mares can and do also protect the herd from external threats…. So it could be ok.
And herds without lead males don’t stay that way long. Fewer stallions may or may not equal fewer colts in the wild. It would reduce genetic pools, which also may or may not be a bad thing. Retaining “breed standard” for feral horses? Or improving the breed to survive better AND be better with humans?
That all said, I DO agree that EVERY Mustang that is captured and held for sale should be gelded BEFORE being offered. Exception ONLY made for those who HAVE ALREADY proved their ability to train and work safely and with dedication to these horses, and have the mental capacity to understand how NOT to breed horses, and are well known in the equestrian community as a source of quality horses. People who DO want a Mustang that is born among humans would then be getting them from a proven breeder, not Joe Backyard.
If there is worry about gene pools and what not, semen can be taken and stored prior to gelding.
It all seems so easy on paper! Sigh!
The problem is if you geld a wild horse you GREATLY decrease it’s chance of surviving. Because when a stallion is gelded it looses it’s need to fight other stallions over mares because it no longer wants to mate with mares. So some other stallion will take over it’s herd and the gelding won’t have a herd. Without a herd it has no chance of surviving.
I have to strongly disagree with this. Even geldings will fight for herd status.
Amen.
I agree more mustangs could be spayed and gelded and turned out again into the wild. I think people think there might be a problem with the family or band structure. I don’t really know, but I think the gelded boys would form their own bands and keep away from the intact bachelors and the all the fighting.
As far as training mustangs and why would anyone want to do it; I had owned horses for 40 years when I got my first mustang… completely untouched and terrified of people. It is an incredible thing to win their trust. I had a new understanding of horses that I never had before. They all have very different personalities and I believe you have to be prepared to maybe have a horse that is just kept as a forever pet. It maybe a rare thing because it seems like everyone I know has had good luck in training them. I have found once you win their trust completely they are pretty much like a domestic born horse. There is one thing that makes them very different and that is they don’t like strangers and have to get used to meeting new people or they will become a one person horse. And the way they bond with you once they trust you is absolutely wonderful.
Is there a link?
I didn’t get to look at the whole site, but 6W ranch had a nice commentary on rhis same subject.
Amen, sister.
Just read the previous days blog “The Truth may Hurt but not as much as getting Kicked across the Barn Aisle” and it fits exactly into what I previously said regarding wild horses and people not understanding how a horse thinks. You see it is not the horse that is the problem it is the persons lack of understanding how a horse thinks and views the world. The previous days blog is full of “tame” horse stories that all reflect a problem with people not horses. The same applies to the “wild” horses. And please do not tell me that “mustangs” are different. They all have the same mental processing of fear and pressure and can all be trained to be great horses. Remember lots of the mustangs are adopted by law enforcement agencies after going through the prison program ran by a Colorado Peneteniary. This is a great documentary about the program. http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2009/wildhorseredemption/
Please do not dismiss the potential of the wild horses that need homes! If you are willing to take courses with experienced trainers in starting colts you will learn so much and be such a better rider, handler etc! And it really is not that difficult! Honest! I am learning to work with the wild horses and it is amazing! I challenge everyone to take a natural horsemanship course with an open mind and good and well respected trainer and I quarantee your current horse will “love” you for it! OK maybe he is not going to love you but he will sure respect you more and your relationship will shift in ways you never imagined!
I can agree with you on this one. I wonder, though, what the criteria for gelding/not gelding will be. The main reason that I adopted was that humans had not been meddling with them. This isn’t entirely true, of course. All along, we have been selecting for wariness and reactivity in any area that has had gathers.
Have to disagree with you on the mythology that our government is intrinsically incompetent. We only hear about the screwups, not about the stuff that’s done right, that’s human nature at work. Planes don’t run into each other on a daily basis, you can be reasonably sure your lunch or your tap water won’t kill you, you won’t get electrocuted by your stereo, your money is safe in a bank, geese still fly overhead, you are free of smallpox, malaria, polio, diphtheria, whooping cough, or any number of other nasty diseases, and you are able to read this blog. (before anyone says anything about public education, consider this: At a community college in the Bay Area, I met several students from a private college who were there for some cheap Gen Ed classes. I won’t name the college, but ummm…it’s located in Palo Alto, very well known, considered one of the top colleges in the U.S. And it’s mascot is a red bird, not native to CA. Getting back, every single one of those students griped about how hard those classes were! And how one could flunk out! After that I quit feeling inferior.)
On the other side of the coin, those same ideologues claim that private industry is more efficient and effective. I can only surmise that they never worked for a large corporation. We do contract software development for private companies. It is rare that something we’ve worked on gets implemented. Most projects fail and millions are wasted for stupid reasons. Lack of communication, ego clashes, arbitrary layoffs, new CEOs who feel they must remake everything in order to look good, to name a few. Free markets only run on rational means in textbooks. Yes, there are excellent companies out there. But consider the information stream. We hear about government screwups because they have to be accountable. Companies only have to report to their stockholders and they have teams of people who can hide, obfuscate, and put a happy face on anything.
I am so for gelding mustangs. There aren’t enough people giving them the homes they deserve. However, I wanted to add that they are worth the trouble! I rode 2 mustang geldings in the parade of breeds at the Kentucky Horse Park. I fell in love with the mustang. They are extremely loyal, smart and very quick learners. In 2003, I adopted a mustang weanling filly. She is the best horse I’ve ever had. She was easy to train and I did all the training myself. It was like she was born broke. My two kids, 3 and 6 years old, ride her. She gives the neighborhood kids rides. She is easy going, is a very easy keeper, has strong healthy hooves and we’ve never had any health issues with her. If all horses could be so easily maintained. I spend a fraction on feed for her. She is very gentle with kids. I just can’t say enough great things about her. Just like there are untrainable or unruly horses of any breed there are mustangs that can not be trained but mustangs should not be singled out. There are many OTT Tbs that people won’t train or want to touch. Don’t judge a horse based on breed but on the animal itself.
I can “guarantee” that if they tried to geld ALL of them, they would miss the “smart” ones and the species would still live on, though not in such unmanageable numbers! I say GELD as many as they can! I saw a series about Cloud on public TV and the person was saying how sad that the mares could not come into foal. They are NOT people and do not have “remorse” that they cannot breed. My mare is a complete hussy when she comes into season, but I have not bred her and never will. I sold a mare that you couldn’t even tell if she was in season or not in season…….nothing, nada, zip. It was just the difference in mares, not a deep overpowering urge to foal that this person was reading into the mare’s behavior. Some mares are just “easy”!!!
I also have not taken the time to research this particular issue, but from the perspective of a biologist who follows non-BLM biology research, this is all sounds a little ridiculous. First of all, gelding has been shown to be an ineffective means of population control. As others have pointed out, you don’t need many stallions to cover a ton of mares, and that is exactly what happened in the past. And while theoretically this would work if you gelded ALL the stallions, really, how likely is that?? A very impractical method to be sure. And yes – gelding does effect the social structure of a horse, but he will usually join a herd of bachelors or other geldings and live out his days there, as many stallions actually do. (Remember – few stallions actually get their own band.) Furthermore, various contraceptive methods have been used on wild mustang mares, and are effective at controlling the population to some degree. However, the drawbacks are similar to those as gelding. Namely, you cannot possibly get all the mares (nor is it necessarily effective in all mares) and it does appear to effect mare social status. (Of course, I think have a different social rank is far better than starving or being slaughtered, so for me, this is a lesser of many evils.) But, aside from the fact I don’t think gelding will really work, I would have no problem with it. If this is a means of returning unadoptable horses to the land so they don’t spend their lives in feedlots, but ensuring they won’t reproduce, I think that is fine.
And after speaking with biologists, you can imagine they are just as frustrated as we are. “Cattle pro” folks will vastly over-inflate population numbers, but “mustang advocates” will do the same counts and vastly deflate the numbers. Real science is very had to come by. Personally, I think mustangs are pretty cool, and until they remove all the cattle from the land, there is no precedence for removing all the horses. They’re population numbers pale in comparison to cattle, and while they do need to be controlled, the issue probably isn’t as dire (i.e., thousands and thousands dying of starvation due to overpopulation) as some like to claim. And as you may all be starting to see, controlling the population isn’t necessarily an easy matter.
Also, I can’t believe the number of accounts of people saying they’re impossible to train – I know TONS in my area that are great horses. They’re great for fox hunting, endurance, and I even know of an A Circuit “pony hunter” who proudly wears his BLM brand under his braids. And while it is technically illegal, some people just open up their gates around here and let them in, pick out the nice weanlings, and release the rest. One really nice one I know was raised and trained by a 60 + year old woman. How nuts and dangerous is that??
And finally, I just realized I have one more reason to like a gelding program. There is a damn cute stallion who comes around to visit my horses. If only he was gelded, I might let him hang around or have a new horse!
a biologist that studies non-BLM, I would like to hear more about what you do ! I am currently studying wildlife ecology research and management, with a focus on parasites and diseases at UWSP. My overall goal is to work specifically with non-BLM wild feral horses, currently I work for a Nokota horse breeder in MN. My email is skenn454@uwsp.edu
As for the topic on hand, I personally think that contraceptives for the mares would be easier and more practical to administer. There are plenty of ways to give contraceptives that reduce injury to horse and human. Lets see, cutting off the family jewels from a non-handled wild stallion, or giving a mare a shot. While gelding a stallion has the potential of changing the behavior, though not to the point of “loosing their motivation to fight.” Giving contraception to a mare will result “In addition to controlling the horse population on ASIS, treatment has extended the life span and improved the health of older mares, by removing the stresses of pregnancy and lactation”
Read more about how birth control is currently being used (for the last 18 years or so) without any negative side effects for the wild horses in North Carolina —> http://www.zoomontana.org/science-and-conservation-center/application-of-pzp-to-wildlife/
Most of the birth control I am personally familiar with involves that of elk.
Though, like most populations found throughout the wild, horses have the tendency to come to other aspects of infertility. Currently the Nokota horses of the North Dakota Badlands have enough cases of cryptorchidism to warrant a desire for research on the condition. Where the stallion does not produce fertile sperm, however maintains the stallion like tendencies. read more about the condition —> http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/info_cryptorchidism.htm
I support the control of wild feral horse populations, as through my studies, I have learned that management of wildlife isn’t just for the critters themselves but for all the people involved. Though I don’t agree with the removal of horses to replace with cattle, there is no denying that the cattle operations are a stakeholder in the use of the land. All stakeholders must be considered and represented when coming to final choices of what to do with the land, its how it must be done, just as they must listen and respect the views of the extreme conservationists of mustang heritage, and all in between.
As stated, I support the control and management of wild feral horses – though I think the government has the right IDEA of restricting the breeding of horses, going about gelding horses is the wrong way to go. Instead contraception and birth control of the mares should be the primary focus of their time and efforts.
Sure a stallion can cover a lot of mares, but it’s not like he’ll be at a breeding facility with the mares lined up at the door. Mustangs have fairly small bands and territories where they roam, and not always because the studs can’t find that many mares, but that a territory can only suport so many horses in a given area, and logistically, a stallion can only expand his territory so far, even if there’s a vacuum left by gelded stallions in the same area. I don’t know the real figures, but say a stallion can ‘manage’ an area of about 50 square miles. He won’t suddenly expand that area to 300 square miles because the neighboring 4 or 5 stallions are now geldings – he simply can’t manage something of that size. His territory may expand a bit, and he may have more mares join his herd, but no more than the land can sustain naturally – if that happened, the herd would die off a bit until it reached sustainable numbers again. There won’t be this big concentration of mares gathering where the one stallion in the area is – for the most part, they’ll stay in their own territories where they can find enough forage. I just don’t see that gelding rounded up stallions and colts, then releasing them to live out their lives NOT reproducing, will have no impact on the numbers, espacially if there are annual round-ups and all younger colts are gelded. This won’t get ALL of the stallions -some are too wily or safe in rough terrain, or will have one or two breeding years before they are caught and gelded, so I don’t see them disappearing altogether either.
As to the quality of life for the released geldings: I think they’d just form gelding bands, keep away from the stallions and live out their tough short lives just like every other mustang out there taking their chances with Mother Nature.
http://www.wildmustangcoalition.org/id43.html mustangs and the BLM by the numbers
For those who think mustangs lack beauty please take a look ..
http://nickolesphotography.wordpress.com/ there are several series of photos!
Well I say geld the lot or none at all, since gelding some just creates an artificial hierarchy likely leading to more suffering. Frankly if the breed dies out its not the end of the world. I fail to see whats “speschul” about crudly evolved mixed breed equines made up of similar genetics to the whole bunch of other crudly evolved mixed breed equine we have in backyards and who in todays world are largely excess to needs. Kinda like glorifying the mixed breed wild mutts roaming our third world street. Time to let go of the dream folks in the name of pragmatics. Put your energy into saving the Orcas or some other similar endangered species.
yea i agree, my horses love being domestic, they are the first to run to the stable, last to leave. they wait at the gate to have their blankets off n on in the rain. They love to be ridden and groomed. They definatly appreciate it alot more than my horses that didnt ever run wild.
http://www.wildhorseproject.blogspot.com
We have seven Appaloosas and one Clyde/TB cross who put the lie to the idea that mustangs mystically appreciate the benefits of domestication more. To a one, they lop over their ears and dangle their lips comfortably while groomed, they enjoy going out for a trail ride, they wait to have blankets on when necessary (I’d call that manners, personally), and they like shelter when it’s crappy out.
I’ve had one that hated fly spray in the past (really seriously hated it)… I guess she could be considered ungrateful for her fantastic lot in life as a domestic horse. Or maybe some horses like being fussed with, like your mustangs, and our herd of domestics, and most domestic horses that I’ve known in my life… and some don’t like being fussed with.
It’s anthropomorphizing, just like when people say shelter dogs ‘know’ they’ve been rescued from certain death and are ‘grateful’. No, they’re dogs, and they like being petted regularly and having their own territory without 80 other dogs on it. Nothing more to it than that. My spoiled Cavaliers cram themselves into the bathroom with me, and I don’t imagine it’s because they regret having been lost in the wilds of some royal castle in their descendants’ past. It’s just because they’re Cavaliers, and Cavaliers have no concept of personal space.
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You mean all those funked-up, manmade, frankenhorses who have HYPP and a host of other genetic problems, who are post legged, can’t get his head out of the dirt, over muscled to the point he can’t be ridden, and who are retired at 6 becasue his brain is fried and his body ruined, not to mention all the drugs pumped into them,which are currently winning their halter clases? No sir, I think an untouched mustang has alot of advanatges – compared to alot of Quarter horses in teh show ring today. Yea,there are lots of already broke registered horses you can buy ….real “broke”.
First of all, when mustangs (feral horses) are removed from the rangeland, they are NOT replaced by cattle. Cattle numbers on the public lands are set numbers. Each ranch has a permit and a permitted number of cattle (or sheep, or combination of the two) tied to that permit. That number is NOT increased. Ever. There may be less livestock than permitted if the rancher elects to not run the full permitted numbers. Or if range conditions do not allow for full permitted numbers to be on the allotment such as during drought. Actually, over the years the number of livestock permitted on the public lands has gone down. Many permits have had their numbers reduced, permanantly. Also, cattle are only allowed on the public land for a short period of time, only a few months a year. They are not on the rangeland yearlong as the horses are. This has to be taken into consideration when determining how many horses the rangeland can support. The rangeland is monitored every year to determine how much forage the horses have used and in some cases, there isn’t enough forage left for livestock and the cattle are not even allowed to be turned out! Most of the areas that these horses are found are very dry with little forage produced. Some areas can only support 5 to 8 head of horses per section (a section is 640 acres). And that is in a good year with average rainfall. And only if water is accessible, which it is not through out much of the rangeland. And where it is available in often times due to ranchers having provided it. Also the range has to be accesible to the horses. Any range that is too steep or too far from water, the horses are not going to use. That puts even more pressure on the range that can be used. It wouldn’t make any difference if all the cattle and sheep were removed from public lands. The horses would still have to be managed or they would eventually exceed the carrying capacity of the range and yes, they will starve. Horses can be very destructive to the rangelands by overgrazing. And again, the horses are out there yearlong, the cattle are not. I don’t mind the mustangs being out there as long as they are managed and not allowed to damage the ecosystem that wildife and others depend on. But at the same time I would also be okay with there being no mustangs on the range. It is a hard life with often times a very hard death. Like Fugly said, there is not enough demand for them to justify the huge numbers of them. And there are soooo many unwanted horses out there why in the world would we want to let the mustangs reproduce uncontrolled and contribute to that number. They can’t all stay out on the range and live out the lovely wild and free life in a sea of green grass like mustang maniacs would like us to believe. They would reproduce beyond the carrying capacity of the land, destroy the fragile desert ecosystem and then many of them would starve. A lose lose situation for everyone.
The fragile desert ecosystem is the only area left to those particular horses– everything else has been turned over for other uses. Oddly enough, the fragile desert ecosystem used to be a grassland, until ranchers overgrazed their cattle on it. In their defense, I think they really didn’t get that all that grass wouldn’t just pop right back up like it does ‘back East’ when they run one cow per acre. Out west, it’s more like one cow per 40 acres, and that’s in a good year.
You do realize that claiming that cattle don’t overgraze because they are only out on the range ‘a few months a year’ is hysterically false to anyone who actually has been out West? The rainy season only lasts a month or two at most. A healthy ecosystem would NOT be trying to carry the burden of thousands of cattle during those rainy months, chomping down the grass as soon as it sprouts. In a healthy ecosystem, the grass would grow during the rainy season, seed out, and become winter forage for the animals that live there year round. Pretty hard for an ecosystem to survive if bovine locusts descend on the grass during those two or three key months when everything is supposed to be regenerating. It’s silly to blame horses for being out there all year long, and claiming that the cattle don’t cause harm because they ‘aren’t there very long’.
I happen to live out west. Have lived out west my entire 42 years of life. In a very arid part of the west as a matter of fact. I know about desert ecosystems. I have a BS in Rangeland Resources. I have seen rangeland that is overgrazed by cattle and I have seen rangeland carry cattle year round and still be healty rangeland. Cattle can and do overgraze rangeland. Over the years, numbers of cattle on the public land have been reduced. There have been a lot of changes in public land grazing that has improved the health of the range. Yes there are still problems in some areas, but livestock is being managed better and there is lot being done to restore areas that were overgrazed long ago. Improvements are being made all the time. And it is also getting harder and harder to make a living ranching. In the not to distant future I am sure there are going to be less and less livestock on public lands. And that part of our western heritage, the people who brought the mustangs here in the first place to help settle the west, will be gone. And nobody is up in arms about that. Mustang maniacs scream about how the number of horses out there is falsly elevated, then turn around and falsly elevate the number of cattle that are out on public lands and claim that more are being brought in. And just as cattle can damage the rangeland so can horses. They can and do cause as much damage as cattle and to say they don’t just because they are magical mustang horses is hysterical.
There is an exception to every rule. I never owned a horse before I got my mustang. I had never trained a horse before I got my mustang. My general horse handling skills were average. When I got my little guy he was 9 months old and halter broke. He was a very agreeable little horse and I got help from experienced trainers but of course had to put in a lot of time on the training work myself, as any owner does. That was three years ago and he is now going under saddle just fine. We are not going to win any dressage competitions but he is becoming an A+ trail horse. It has been incredibly rewarding working with this little wild horse and I would not trade a day of it. If you get the right horse, and you get the right help, and you are willing to put in the time, it is sure possible for the average horse person to adopt a mustang and have it work out. I’m not going to say it’s going to be easy every day, but you sure learn a heck of a lot going through the process.
Yes, of course I mean no mustang has been OBSERVED to have colicked IN THE WILD by any of the researchers who are currently studying wild horses in the U.S. OK? My point was that there are things to be learned from wild, free ranging horses, not formerly wild ones!
I have read the entire blog. IMHO after thinking this through, I tend to go with the view that these horses are tough, nature made beasts that “survival of the fittest” has created. Most are agreeably just run away culs from ranches, so they are not a geneticly pure breed. They do have a right to be wild, just the same as deer and elk. We maintain those herds through hunting and preditors. As the documentary “Cloud” did show is how dangerous being wild is and why they do not live long. I do not agree that people think in fantasies about these horses. You attack and simplify the views of those trying to protect these herds by calling them names. Remember the horrors of how wild horses were treated before the 1971 law was enacted. Yes, there is a problem with the round ups every year and I think there needs to be some serious rethinking about the holding pens and what is done currently, including gelding and mare birth control. But it needs to be done using facts and not horse lover’s emotions or rancher’s pocketbooks. At this point in time I am far more concerned about what Fracking is going to do to our western wild lands then what the wild horses are doing.
kdiznhorses, i should have read your post before posting my own opinion. you said it simply and perfectly and short … instead i wasted a half hour.
I had a mustang mare from the BLM. She wound up being one of the best horses ever. I started her, and finished her. We did endurance (50 mile), barrels, poles, and jumping. She was a jack of all trades, and though she wasnt perfect at anything, she did her best and would run to the moon if you asked her. People couldnt believe she was a BLM mustang. I took her to numerous parades, dressing her up with battery operated lights, ice-cycles, bells, garland, and antlers (I will have to post the pics from that parade, she was adorable).
I also had a family that had kids, and when the kids wanted to go trail riding with their parents, they would come get Dance and the 4-7 year olds would double up on her. She was awesome. Never spooked at anything, could be the trust in me, but could be the fact that I had her in every situation known to man. She was awesome. One of these days, I will have another mustang. They make amazing partners.
Totally unrelated but I am sure many of you have and love cats. This program and this woman is incredible. http://www.cathouseonthekings.com/index.php There was a program on Nat Geo Wild about it last night that was so touching. Not sire how one can watch a repeat showing of it but totally worth it to try.
I do want to add in here, yes I am an avid fan of the BLM Mustangs and a previous owner/trainer, I think there should be some sort of population control and gelding/birth control shots or something. Someone needs to do it. There are so many unwanted horses, much less people who CAN take on a mustang and turn it into a “productive citizen”. Its not easy. No I wasnt ever hurt. I did it yes, but again, not everyone can.
Geld them, shoot the mares up with some birth control. I will even chip in a fund if someone started one to geld/spay the mustangs. Thats just my 2 cents.
This is like a program for feral cats. Catch, Neuter and Release. I like it.
I think this is a good idea. But as we all know the Government can fuck up an anvil. We dont need huge herds of Mustangs running amuck to keep our heritage. A well maintained herd with select few allowed for breeding. If a program can be set to keep maintenance on a smaller herd and kept maintained should pose no problems. However no one wants to pay for that maintenance force of induviduals. The Government is stretch financially as it is with all of those self raises they give to governing members and all of that uesless spending and what not. Our government cant maintain itself let alone the mustang problem.
OT but wanted to mention something that is bothering to me. I talked to a Vegan (suposedly die hard, every animal should roam free with no boarders and using animal based products a big no no. No to wool, cheese, milk, and plethera of non killing of animal products. No no to any animal processing.) last month and I listened to some of her ramblings (which most made no sense what so ever) and what do I find her doing the other day………….riding her horse with a LEATHER bridle and saddle and LEATHER suede schooling chaps. Now, you tell me one thing…….Hippi chick is a big fat HYPOCRIT. I know the difference between real leather and synthetic (remember I work with leather and repair it and restore it and etc) . I looked at it and the saddle was an older Collegiate. The bridle was leather of no particular brand. I asked her about it and she said in a snarkey kind of way…….my parents bought all of this for me years ago before I became Vegan. If she was a real Vegan, as she claims to be, wouldnt she burn or trash or sell the “OF ANIMAL PRODUCT leather gear and invest in Synthetic? Those chaps she wore werent old by no means. They looked relitively new to me. Also isnt riding a horse a type of servitude to us….even if its just for pleasure? Once again against her vegan veiws. (she also had what looked to be leather paddock boots) I despise hypocrits.
I wonder how many “slaves” were used in mining for that diamond ring she wore? Some of those diamonds are mined from Africa by ppl who have very little choice than to work in the mines and are virtualy slaves. So I guess ppl dying and being used and abused with very little concern for thier wellfare and no human rights is an allowable and “OK” way to treat ppl. As long as you have that pretty little rock to show off.
Shrugs.
Synthetic and biothane are made using petroleum. Not much of a positive environmental influence for vegans there, either. The reality is that we can NOT live as humans without impacting the environment. Responsible people look for ways to minimize that impact, but you can’t eliminate it totally, because by our very existence we impact the world around us.
Me, I’d rather see people buy whatever tack they choose, then take CARE of it so that it lasts twenty or fifty years (and yes, it can last that long easily if cared for). That is a responsible decision, as opposed to someone who buys the newest show saddle every other year.
Good point and this I know and understand. However this person never even mentioned the word Environment and the saving of such. She just preached about animal suffferage and how the usage and such for thier products is wrong but yet she uses leather tack and gear. To me that is hypocracy in its very basic form. Leather, if good qualilty and with quality tanning methods can last several lifetimes if cared for properly. I have leather that is about 40 years old and still going. strong.
You’re killing me fugs. Read up next time. The plan is not to geld some Mustangs. It’s to geld ALL of the Mustangs in White Mountain and Little Colorado and have “non-reproducing herds”. The BLM themselves have pointed out in other documents that it poses more danger to the rangeland, since the geldings are more likely to stay in massive bachelor bands in the same location rather than keeping territories as stallions do. With no knowledge to back up how these horses will handle this, it’s ludicrous and inhumane to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to impliment gelding on a massive scale.
There aren’t pages and pages of froo froo whimsical dreamers spouting off that I have seen. And this is my favorite herd so believe me, I’ve seen it all. There was some nice science and ecological documentation from Western Watersheds when they got involved as well as healthy, rational disagreement. This is one of the most easily viewable herds in the country, and I’m disappointed that you would blog such a thing to lead others astray when you know so little on the subject. Perhaps you are all happy with your domestics, but I happen to enjoy photographing horses in the wild and would prefer if they not all be gelded as last I checked, there’s now ay for geldings to create a new generation.
I’ve followed this board for a while, and while I agree with a lot of what you say Fugs, I have to respectfully disagree in this case. You’ve already stated you haven’t really had time to read past the drama and from what I’ve read you don’t seem to have the slightest idea (no offence, I love you Fugs) about what has been going on between the BLM and the wild horses they are supposed to be protecting. I’ll squish it into something that hopefully won’t be overly long –
1 – The ratio of wild horses to cattle/sheep in the HMAs is 50-1 (conservatively) in favour domestic livestock.
2 – Ranchers using public lands pay a pittance for the privilege of grazing their cattle on that land but still have the same false sense of entitlement that they did during the westward expansion – the land belongs to them and they sure as hell don’t want to share it with anything. They see the mustangs as eating ‘their’ grass and drinking ‘their’ water.
3 – The BLM is about as mathematically challenged as I am. Last year they said their was some 30,000 wild horses in the HMAs and they removed more than 10.000 of them. This year they’re saying there are 38,000 horses in the HMAs and they want to remove another 12,000. Fact is, the BLM never actually gets off their ass and goes and counts them. In several roundups where they claimed there were too many horses, their gathers came up extremely short because they couldn’t find the horses they said were on the range. Subsequent counts by independent observers found virtually no horses left in the HMAs which were set aside for their primary use.
4 – How long does something have to live without interference from man in order to be classified as ‘wild’? Mustangs have been on the range for over 500 years. They have adapted to their environment to the point that many, when kept in captivity, die of because they can’t handle the diet of a domestic horse
5 – Range degradation is not caused by the horses, it’s caused by the domestic livestock. Horses are nomadic and travel 20 miles or more a day. They don’t hang around water holes longer than it takes for everyone to drink. Cattle and sheep will stay close to water, continually fouling it with manure and urine. They stay in one place until they’ve stripped the edible vegetation and then move on. If mustangs are dying of thirst in a HMA, it’s more than likely because ranchers have the water holes fenced off. While horse droppings disburse seeds, cattle do not. Cattle drink more water than wild horses and consume more forage. Horses nip off the grass, leaving the roots intact so the plant can keep growing while cattle tear vegetation from the ground because they lack front teeth in the upper jaw.
6 – No, it’s not pretty when something dies due to lack of water/food or because of predation, but that’s nature. The weak die and the strong survive to pass on their genes. When other wildlife suffer due to drought, it’s called ‘natural selection’. I can’t stand to see an animal suffer, but provided it’s just nature taking it’s course, I don’t believe in interfering.
7- One of the main contractors that run the helicopter round-ups was actually convicted of illegally rounding up wild horses in a HMA and selling them for slaughter, cause apparently the millions of dollars the BLM pays him isn’t enough. Catoor is a real piece of work, and the other contractor ‘Sun J’ has a helicopter pilot that seems to enjoy flying so low he hits the horses with the skids. He’s either a sadist or just a shitty pilot – the jury’s still out.
8- Mustangs may have come from European stock, but how long does something have to live in the wild before it’s considered ‘wild’. The mustang has been on the range long enough that it has adapted completely to its environment and can thrive on forage that would starve a domestic horse. The mustang turned the plains Indians into a horse culture that rivaled the Huns and played a huge part in their culture.
9- Under the Wild Horse and Burro Act, wild horses are to be managed a ‘wild and free roaming’ with all the natural behaviours that accompany it. Skewing sex ratios by releasing more stallions than mares or gelding stallions and returning them to the range destroys the animals’ natural herd dynamics. Family bonds are important to wild horses, and no, I’m not being overly emotional, it’s a fact. If family/herd is important to other social animals like whales/dolphins/lions/elephants, why do wild horse advocates get called horse-huggers for stating the same about mustangs?
10- there is no humane way to stampede horses with a helicopter and lets cut the bullshit – a ‘gather’ implies gentle herding. When horses come in lathered and blown, heads hanging and legs shaking in exhaustion, that’s a stampede. Foals are left behind to die or are trampled, horses break legs or are otherwise injured when they are run at full gallop for ten miles or more in 90 degree or worse heat over some of the harshest terrain you can imagine. BLM will routinely say it euthanized (shot) foals because of ‘physical abnormalities’ – their version of ‘abnormalities’ are sloughing hooves and joints damaged from being run for ten miles or more. (For more on this, go to http://artandhorseslauraleigh.wordpress.com/)
11-The mustang lives on public land and belongs to the public, but the few humane observers that go to the roundups are kept up to a mile from the trap sites and in locations that are purposely selected to obstruct viewing. The BLM says this is for their safety and because they don’t want the horses spooked from the trap sites, but contractors have barely attended toddlers playing at the trap site and holding areas. The BLM has had so much bad press about their poor handling of the horses that humane observers aren’t even allowed to listen to the chatter over the radios used by the contractors/BLM staff.
12 – Just because an animal has no ‘use’ to some people does not mean it doesn’t have an inherent right to continue living as it has for hundreds of years, especially when it’s not hurting anything. There are only 20-30 thousand mustangs left in the HMAs, though some reputable journalists say that number may only be much lower, but there are millions of privately owned livestock using the same areas that the horses are supposed to have primary use of. At some roundups where the BLM has states that there were too many horses, people have seen more cattle being moved in while the horses were being rounded up.
13 – the BLM says that mustangs have no natural predators. This is a load of crap. Grizzly bears, cougars and wolves will all take a young/old/injured horse just as they will with deer or elk. Coincidentally, these natural predators, who had lived in the same HMAs long before the mustang even got here, are still shot by contractors, on public land, during ‘predator control’ programs. Apparently large predatory animals enjoy the taste of stupid, slow moving, unattended livestock as much as the rest of us, so of course they have to go. Instead of shooting predators which throws the entire ecosystem out of whack, maybe the ranchers should either have someone attending the animals or just STFU and take the loss in exchange for the ridiculously low grazing fees they’re paying.
14 – Ranchers and the BLM will routinely deny the horses access to water in HMAs and then zero out a herd under emergency protocols because they’re dying of thirst.
15 – The BLM supposedly has 40,000 wild horses warehoused on private land, but no one can go see these horses and confirm they’re actually there. The BLM does not inventory them though they are supposed too. So the wild horses, who belong to the public and are being held at public expense can’t be seen by the public who is paying for their upkeep. The BLM keeps this shit so hush hush that you’d think they were guarding something of the utmost importance to national security. Within the last two days, a cattle truck full of mustangs who were warehoused in one of these long-term holding pastures was found to have extremely suspicious paperwork. The horses were being shipped from Utah to Texas for some convoluted reason by a known slaughter buyer. This is not the first time this has happened but it’s the first time the media has taken notice, forcing the BLM to pretend they give a damn that federally protected mustangs are shipping to slaughter from the very pastures they’re supposed to be going to for safekeeping.
16- The BLM has a history of blatant corruption (re: the sex/drugs/mining scandal) and being in the pockets of the very industries (livestock, mining, gas exploration) they are supposed to be regulating. They are being accused of managing they wild horses and burro into extinction for the benefit of industry who has no regard for the public lands they’re leeching off of.
17 – The way the contractors treat the horses is criminal – foals are literally thrown onto trailers while adult horses are sometimes roped, hog-tied and dragged up ramps. Pens are set up incorrectly and saddle horses are tied to them, causing the stallions to charge the panel and break their necks. They will lie in the dirt while the contractors go about their business, though they know the animal is suffering and twenty minutes later, after a smoke break, decide to finally put the horse out of its misery. There are plenty of photos of malicious handling by smiling contractors. Working with domestic horses can be frustrating, and working mustangs is 10X worse, but there’s no excuse for cruelty.
Anyway, the list of bullshit the BLM has been playing at for years would take a year to write out, and this post is already way into the TL;DR territory anyway. Point is, the mustang is no more a saddle horse than the Przewalski’s Horse. They may not all be pretty, but they don’t have to be and I’m not sure why something has to have a use just be be allowed to live without harassment. In most cases, wild horses have been pushed into some of the harshest territory North America has to offer, and yet they survive because they have been on the range so long they have adapted to do more with less. I don’t understand the horse-snobbery – just because they don’t belong to someone they are somehow useless? So everything that doesn’t have a use, even if it’s not doing anyone or anything any harm, should just be removed? Last I looked, nature usually doesn’t give a shit about what people consider aesthetically pleasing or useful – it designs things to survive. 28 thousand Mustangs spread over millions of acres aren’t ‘overpopulating’ the range and they are not degrading it – it’s the millions of privately owned welfare livestock. Before the livestock moved in and before the west was fenced off, millions of wild horses went about their business with millions of buffalo/deer/whatever and the ecosystem was thriving. Now however, less thank 2000 horses on a two million acre complex are somehow causing irreparable damage? I call bullshit.
Ok, so I lied – this is much longer than I intended. Anyway, for a less rambling account of BLM bullshit and shenanigans, just look up ‘George Knapp – wild horses’ on Google. Anyway, I luvs ya Fugs, but I think you need to do a lot more reading on this.
Love this post.
Also loved this article by Andrew Cohen in the August issue of The Atlantic. Passionately argued, well researched, refreshingly free of hyperbole!
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/08/the-quiet-war-against-wyomings-wild-horses/243286
Your post is not entirely accurate Cypher.
Public land ranching is just one of the many uses of public land. Ranchers are not allowed to just do whatever they want on public land. They are required to follow rules. They can’t do anything on public land without the BLM approving it. The permitted numbers of livestock on BLM land has been reduced over the years. Why do you think the ranchers hate BLM as much as the mustang maniacs do? Yes, there are times when the range is monitored for utilization before the cattle are turned out and it is determined that there is not enough forage for the cattle because the horses have eaten it all. And the cattle don’t get turned out. But the horses get to stay and continue to eat, eventually leaving nothing for the native wildlife.
The horses did not evolve with the ecosystem they inhabit. And no neither did cattle, they are both introduced species. But cattle are not grazing the rangeland yearlong and not allowing any rest time. And the horses have always been there under the influence of man. Man, mostly ranchers and settlers, are the ones that put them there. They have always been influenced by mans fences and water developments.
Range degredation can and is caused by horses. Ranchers cannot fence off water sources to horses. If they did, their cattle would not have access to the water. If a horse can’t access a water source, neither can cattle. Horses do hang out by water. Especially if it is the only water within a large area. Horses are not camels. They can only go so far from water grazing before they have to come back to drink. They can easily overgraze a three-four mile radius around a water source if it is the only water source around. Just like cattle. They are livestock just like cattle. All animals disperse seeds in their droppings, horses, cattle, deer, even birds. Horses actually do more harm to grass than cattle. Because they have upper incisors, horses can actually graze closer to the ground, and they paw up roots with their hooves.
Yes, nature is not kind. Wildlife die horrible deaths all the time. But horses are not wildlife, they are feral animals that can disrupt the native wildlife if left unmanaged. Just like cattle would if they were turned loose and allowed to be feral. I personally don’t want to see whole herds of horses starving to death and ruining the rangeland before they die.
I have seen many falsely edited video and pictures that are not even of mustangs being put out there by wild horse groups along with some sad horrid tale of abuse. A little digging shows that the videos are edited to cut out key information, dramatic music and emotional stories are added in. Many of these videos are very inaccurate. There is documentation from less fanatical sources at the same roundups that say there is not all this abuse going on. And these are not BLM sources. They are horse loving observers who even own mustangs.
Cattle numbers are not increasing as horses are being removed. They just aren’t, sorry. The number of cattle on the public land is a set number. Each allotment is permitted a certain number of livestock. That number doesn’t go up. EVER. Most of the time the rancher has less than that number on the public land due to weather, cattle prices, drought, BLM not allowing them to stock the allotment.
Millions of wild horses were not here before the west was settled and fenced off. Most of the horses came with the people that settled the west and fenced it off. The native americans had horses, but they were brought here by the spanish.
There is room on the public lands for some wild horses. But they don’t have exclusive rights to the public lands over everything else. Even if all cattle were removed from the public land, and it is not going to be too far in the future that this will happen, the horses numbers would still have to be managed. They are feral animals that can do a lot of damage to the resource. If cattle were all removed, the majority of the water sources available to the wild horses would be gone, no longer maintained by the ranchers. The mustang people want the horses to just survive on their own so that means that no artificial water or food sources should be provided. You do realize that during drought, the BLM hauls water to horses to keep them alive right? There are very few natural water sources out there. Horses will hang close to those waters and graze all the vegetation for as far as they can get from water then eventually die. Without management, most of them would die and there would be far less mustangs out there than there is now.
that was the most intelligent debate i think i have ever read on this or any site…that was awesome and you two are awesome for doing it…both sides were presented well without all of the trappings that most of us on here hate…i’m an Animal Science and Genetics major in New Zealand…its entirely pasture based out here so we are learning a LOT about maintaining pasture…both of you make really good points from my meager knowledge…i thank you again ^_^
Hey Fugs—or anyone–
Can you point me to the archive post about the methods you use when dealing with colic? I vaguely remember the post but can’t seem to find it. Would like to print it off and keep it in my barn and thought I should do that in case the archives go away sometime.
If you don’t want to read the drama, then I suggest you view photos from the likes of Barbara Wheeler. She’s on facebook and easy to find. What you will see are downright gorgeous horses – tough and strong.
Our “domesticated”, fucked-up, overbred breeds pale in comparison.
A picture is worth a thousands words. What you will see is horses who were NOT starving on land that was supporting all forms of life.
Mustangs do not damage the land like hundreds of thousands of cattle will do. Like we do.
Sad to say, our gov is not worried about the environment in the way they imply nor is it concern for starving horses (they were not starving anyway). It’s not all rainbows and ‘let’s do the best thing for nature’. The gov wants something else. It is about energy mining …….which is really money mining. The horses were in the way and can best be defined as collateral damage. Sad, isn’t it? I think so.
Fugs, to suggest mustangs could be bred in captivity is inviting the wolf into the henhouse. (We are the wolf.) I mean, your blog would not be here if we were so good at breeding. So no, I reject that suggestion you made to another person. The mustangs were fine on their own. Hoof problems, metabolic issues,joint problems – all these and more did not last in the harsh environment.
What made the breed possess the strength and beauty it has today (before the holding pens) is due to natural selection. I love that mustangs exist because I loved knowing that there was one unfucked up breed out there. I wanted one of those horses some day, and I can’t help but feel I may have missed my chance. If it was bred by man on a ranch, I don’t want that “mustang”. I will get another lucky QH or thoroughbred or something else altogether to suit my needs.
I am a normal, sane, employed person, who has been involved with horses of all types longer than most and without injury nor head trama. So with that said, I believe that there IS a place for mustangs. They should be taken back from where they came from… that is, on the range and also in responsible adopter homes (there should be a no breeding contract with exceptions permitted).
Overpopulation is a loose term. If the gov did not have plans for the land (energy mining), there would be no issue.
If not for many of the outspoken “freaks”, more of our Mustangs would already be on a plate somewhere.
So to the original question. To snip or not to snip. The rationale on gelding because the mustangs are “rescued” is pretty stupid and an incorrect conclusion. They are not rescued but rather stolen from you (whether you want to lay claim to them or not) and me. However, I would support castration if a study was done to find the purest bands, the most hardy, the most strong, and keep the best as the stallions. Okay .. fine .. geld the rest if that will be the compromise. But the study requires some work and research and money (and a bit of drama that you want to avoid this time for some reason, maybe because there is not one person we can point the finger at?) but the study is well worth it. Sadly however I doubt this will happen. Our gov takes shortcuts and now they can blame it on the economy now rather than a cold heart despite this “work” would help boost the economy long term in some regions…. but I still doubt any such study to determine the best most pure stallions would ever happen.
Everything I said can be supported with fact. This response is longer than I intended but you hit a hot button for me. You don’t care enough to wade through the drama to find the cold hard facts and I don’t want to overwhelm you with them nor waste my time. Seeing is believe anyway, at least for me. So please, look at Barbara Wheeler’s photos and then I suggest you take a vacation. Destination? The not-so-wild-anymore west. Hook up with Fitch or Pickens and trail them in the field before drawing your final conclusions.
And one other thing. The fact that the government is doing what they have done despite laws in place and the lack of transparency should scare the shit out of you. It is horses today. What is next?
Determining the most pure stallions in many herds would be difficult since none of them are anywhere near pure anything. The best that could be done is pick the best ones for the mix they are or the ones with be most functionally sound conformation.
Gelding any stallions would be problematic in many herds. Most herds are small in number and already inbred. Gelding all but the ‘best’ stallions would reduce their genetic variability further. The Dutch Friesian registry has allowed only a few of their very best colt to remain stallions for generation. First they produced some very nice horses. Then they produced horses with a high rate of genetic defects. They are now looking at ways to increase their genetic variability.
Hi Painted Pony. True about the small herds and gelding the studs. I acqueised in the spirit of compromise.
But I sit and think, why the hell should we compromise. Who knows really what is pure or close to it? The BLM says they do genetic studies to make sure the herds are not greatly inbred but I don’t know how much I believe them and how deeply they dive into things. A rumor is that some herds are related to horses that should have been extinct in America. I will say, it is interesting how well the Indians rode. And really, the first explorers wouldn’t know the difference between a native horse vs one of their own “strays”? So as difficult as DNA testing may seem, they say they are already doing some genetic testing. Additional studies would be beneficial before we randomly geld.
Also, Annieandme’s post down below was spot on. “MALES DON’T MATTER! They’re the expendable part of the population and that is especially true in animals that breed in harems. Removing males in those situations simply reduces the competition for the remaining males. If you want to reduce a population you have to focus on the FEMALES other wise you’re wasting time and money.”
This makes me rethink my “ok to geld if…” compromising position. Oh hell. If they are planning fertility treatment in mares and gelding all of the stallions, then they are trying to take all mustangs off the map. That is not cool with me.
Just curious if anyone knows for sure if any of the private properties, where the captured mustangs are homed, are owned by corporations? I am curious where the money goes.
OneLuckyQH is correct this falls under the concept that “sperm is cheap” from a survival standpoint. It seems that unless you geld EVERY stallion you’ll still have the same quantity of horses one the range and they’ll likely be of lesser quality. Pointle$$ really.
As was said by others, I say actually manage them so you end up with a real product or let them be wild and consequently at the mercy of nature. you can’t have it both ways.
as to your question about those private individuals who have some of the mustangs…i remember reading on a blog (thepioneerwomansux i believe) that the PioneerWoman and family get heaps of money for maintaining mustangs….there are public documents around somewhere but my internet is crap and i can’t go find them
A genetic study of the BLM herds was done some years ago. Dr. Phil Sponenberg of the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy was involved. I think that Dr. Gus Cothran, then of UK, now of Texas A & M, was also. Some of the herds were found to be quite inbred. Recommendations were made for minimizing further inbreeding, but I do not know if they are being followed. The proposal to reduce the White Mountain herd to 97 breeding animals makes me suspect that they are not.
The word ‘pure’ is a bit of hot button with me. When discussing BLM herds, it usually means pure Spanish. There are very few pure or high percent Spanish BLM herds. That does not mean that the other herds a less genetically valuable. Nearly all horse breeds have changed a lot since becoming recreational animals rather than utility animals. The tall ‘hitchy’ draft horse seen in parades today is a far cry from the horses that pulled plows, freight wagons, and caissons. Thoroughbreds, Quarter Horses, Morgans, the gaited breeds, even Shetland ponies have changed a lot in the past century. The BLM herds are a reservoir of the now rare utility horse genetics. Genetics for functionally sound bodies and tractable minds.
The word ‘mixed’ is also a sore point. Too many people seem to think that all mixed-bred horses are the same. That is like saying that cocktail sauce, Worchester sauce, and Louisiana hot sauce are the same thing because they are all sauces. Most of the BLM herds may be mixed, but the ‘ingredients’ that went into the mix varies from herd to herd. Some have been breeding as a closed herd for generations and have become genetically distinct and unique. Introducing horses from other herds to increase genetic variability would destroy the uniqueness of the herd. Other herds are genetically similar to nearby herds and could be managed by exchanging horses between herds. A lot more thought needs to go into managing the BLM herds that the BLM seem to be employing. While addition studies might be helpful, I suspect that just using the information at hand would be a good start.
Well, honestly, how much will it actually help gelding the stallions, unless you geld nearly all of them you probably won’t see the reductions in number of foals born that you are all hoping for. Are we assuming that if we brought in the lead stallions and gelded them that they would still “think” they’re stallions and go back to deffending their band of mares and keep them from getting impregnated by another stallion? Wouldn’t they just mellow out and forget about the mares?
I have a bit of a background in population biology and one of the first things that they taught us was that in all but the most strictly pair bonding animals MALES DON’T MATTER! They’re the expendable part of the population and that is especially true in animals that breed in harems. Removing males in those situations simply reduces the competition for the remaining males. If you want to reduce a population you have to focus on the FEMALES other wise you’re wasting time and money. Look at programs like “Earn a Buck” in places where deer populations need to be reduced. In that program if a hunter wants to shoot a buck they first have to “fill” a certain number of doe tags. This program effectively reduces the number of fawns born and the population as a whole. Dealing with the reproductive ablities of mares is more expensive and more difficult but it is the only way to really make a difference. That goes for our domestic horses too. Perhaps laprascopic methods could be explored or permenant chemical sterilization?
As for mustangs, if we want them to be wild animals we have to get over the fact that some of them are going to die of starvation, dehydration and disease. That’s normal in the wild. Anyone who lives in a rural setting has seen the deer and other animals go through rough times. There won’t be a hunting season for the pronghorn in our province this year because too many of them starved to death last winter. The government didn’t screw up their “management” of that species it was just a bad winter and now they need to be left alone to recover before we can consider “taking” any.
We do have a small band of wild horses in the bronson forest and as it stands they are protected, from people atleast. The hunters who came to the area had been shooting them because they would eat the bait piles of grain set out for deer (legal here) and most often they would shoot them in the guts so they would run away and die where they didn’t have to worry about them scaring the deer off the bait…. nice right… Anyway the locals got really upset and managed to get them protected. They are a small population and they aren’t growing in numbers very quickly,if at all, because of the predation they face from wolves, black bears and now grizzlies and cougars plus our brutal winters. Albertan “wildies” next door have next to zero protection and the provincial government hires or contracts people to trap and then send them directly to slaughter. The public has no chance to buy them, they aren’t run though auction and they aren’t available to rescues, which sucks.
anyway enough from me
There isn’t anything wrong with gelding some of the studs, especially younger ones. The two big issues as I understand it is that one, they wanted to spay the mares, on the range and, two, they want to zero out the herds. As inept as our government is I’m not comfortable with the BLM taking on a very difficult surgery in primitive conditions. It would undoubtedly result in a great deal of suffering and death on the part of the mares. What’s wrong with PZP? I know many don’t like it because it can cause out of season births but it is definitely better than spaying wild mares in the field.
I am a US citizen who pays taxes and votes. I do not want the BLM clearing mustangs off land that was assigned to them by federal legislation and that belongs to the citizens of the US just to hand it over to mining companies, ranchers and game hunters. They’re not trying to manage the horses, they’re systematically getting rid of them. I would have no problem with competent, intelligent, research based management.
As for mustangs being an “introduced nonnative species”, they are not. They are a “reintroduced native species.” We, the lunatics who don’t want mustangs tortured by being run for hours over horrible terrain in intense heat without rest or water so their herds can be eliminated, have studied the issue extensively. How many who see mustangs as vermin have really, honestly studied the issue and have current knowledge of these herds? Not very many, I suspect.
I am an intelligent, educated woman who has studied the issues, the horses, the geography, the politics, etc. Just because you don’t agree with me doesn’t mean I am some hysterical idiot!
PZP does not prevent the mares from coming into heat. Since they do not conceive, they continue to cycle all summer long. This keeps the stallions fighting over mares all summer long instead of just in the spring breeding season. Still, it seems to be the best thing available right now.
Coming in late on this one but its one of my pet peeves. Mustangs are not “feral” horses. According to the fossil record the first place on the planet where the modern horse evolved was in North America. They expanded onto the rest of the world adapting to more local climate and habitat. The North American herds were isolated and died out during one of the extinctions of Mega fauna. They were reintroduced by the Spanish about 500 years ago and flourished. There are bands that have been so isolated that they have preserved genetics no longer evident in present day Spanish horses. There are even plans to use mustangs of this type to invigorate that stock. Calling the mustang a feral species is like calling the wolves reintroduced to Yellowstone feral dogs albeit the time scale is more extreme.
Mustangs are an introduced species? So are cattle and sheep. Now, if these ranchers were raising American Bison, that might be a legitimate argument but they’re not and their cattle are no more native than the Mustangs. That being said, it could be argued that the Mustangs have a greater claim than cattle because historically, as a species, horses are a North American animal. Studies indicate that the horse actually evolved in the Americas and introduced themselves over the land bridge to Eurasia before becoming extinct in the Americas. How they got extinct, no one knows but it was probably a combination of hunting and the ending of the last Ice Age. In fact, it could be argued that domestication actually saved the species from becoming extinct world wide. Which leads to another possible explanation for the supposed low incidence of colic in wild horses: horses are an Ice Age animal, designed to be constantly on the move. Perhaps the lower incidence of colic in the wild is simply because they’re not confined? In another words, stalling the horse, keeping him from moving for long periods may be contributing to the incidence of colic. Just speculation here. I would be interested to know what the incidence of colic was among horses kept in a large pasture situation 24/7 as opposed to being stalled.
unfortunately colic is a very general diagnosis…it is anything from being gassy due to a change in diet to having a torsion…wild/feral horses on the range likely have less impaction colic and less incidences of ulcers but i seriously doubt that some of the other forms are completely nonexistant or even all that much less…there just isn’t anyone watching every day for signs and there are no post-mortem autopsies when the scavengers get the ones that die
There are many people claiming that horses were introduced to North America by the Spanish, and this is a very common misconception. Horses actually originated in North America, and traveled over land bridges into Africa and Asia. However, during the Ice Age horses became extinct on North America, and instead were RE-introduced by the Spaniards. There is also some debate on whether or not wild horses became extinct during that Ice Age, as there is some (scant) anthropological evidence that at least one of the Native American tribes had horses during this time period. However, due to the geographical location of this tribe (the central United States, essentially) it is extremely difficult to find fossils simply because this area is not very conducive to creating fossils in the first place.
Additionally, horses have not changed very much at all genetically over time, so our current herds of Mustangs are incredibly similar (if not the same) as the herds that used to roam the US before they may/may not have become extinct.
It is a little challenging to find research on this area, but I do have a link to one article to back me up: http://bss.sfsu.edu/holzman/courses/spring%2005%20projects/wildhorses/wildhorses.htm
In my opinion, wild horses have the right to live and die like every other wild animal. We manage deer populations through hunting, and I don’t see a problem with managing these herds through selective reproductive altering.
What I don’t understand is the concept that you can get tough as a nails, intelligent, calm horses out of the wild (and no it isn’t uncommon) and yet people say that that idea is absolutely idiotic because they cannot trace the horse’s pedigree. Meanwhile, they are breeding horses who have mediocre to terrible feet and legs (at best) compared to their wild cousins and who may not even be as intelligent. Talented individuals who have no prejudice (which, let’s face it. Is RARE in the horse world) can make grand prix dressage horses out of talented mustangs. I would love to have the prejudice erased (whom the current blogger of FUGLY is clearly prejudice and expressed in the title that she doesn’t care to even learn about the politics involving mustangs, but somehow she thinks that she should have an authoritative opinion on the subject… OK that makes no sense!) and have many more talented individuals train up mustangs to the higher levels of competition. That would be a very interesting thing to happen! Then, we might have grand champion mustangs (such as the mustang stallion who looks like a European warmblood won reserve champion in breeding I think last year at the prestigious Dressage at Devon show) with pedigrees going around. After all, most mustangs are the products of turned loose Thoroughbreds, Draft, Quarter Horse, Arabian, etc. etc. mixes. The Quarter Horse itself is a “heinz 57!” Any horse with a pedigree that comes from the famous King Ranch goes back to Nevada Mustangs!
What this blog should have been about is the insanity of people dissing a perfectly healthy, sane, and sound horse for breeding because we do not know the pedigree while that same person owns a defective HYPP positive (or fill your disease in here), crap footed, stupid, weak boned thing just because it comes from a common breed (that is more common at slaughter houses than any mustang will be) and might be a little popular. Don’t you all remember the wise words: “no foot = no horse”? Instead, we have “champion” horses whose legs are so straight that they are really only sound while standing still whose feet are so weak that they need shoes to just stand around in soft dirt and who are so violent they need more than one handler to handle them or the trainer feels they are only safe boxed up in a small stall with the door closed in on them! Obviously, this analogy certainly doesn’t apply to every horse, but I know that bits a pieces I said and did not say can apply to many horses I have seen or ridden.
So, stop dissing the perfectly healthy, sane, and sound horses simply because they have no pedigree. After all, pedigree keeping is only very recent in the grand scheme of things and keeping a registry is hardly even 200 years old.
Well Fugs from what I can tell this is your last entry….you will be missed. I wish you all the best in whatever you do, and wish to thank you on behalf of the horses you have helped and the people who truly love them, we are grateful to you. Be well