The truth may hurt, but not as much as getting kicked across the barn aisle!
Jul 28 2011
Larry Trocha, you are DEFINITELY the hero of the horse world this week!
BTW, anyone who thinks his response was “mean” is an idiot. And that’s MY never-humble-opinion!
My favorite part of her original letter “I often joke that he is a “one woman horse” as he follows me like a dog and seems to have formed a good bond as long as I don’t do anything he doesn’t like.” Honey, that kind of relationship doesn’t work with HUMANS, either!
212 comments to “The truth may hurt, but not as much as getting kicked across the barn aisle!”
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This is sooooo getting printed and posted at my barn! Thanks!
I’ve only dealt with one kicker. I ended up, after trying several other things, whacking him on the leg he tried to kick me with with a crop.
Guess what.
He NEVER KICKED ME AGAIN.
One sharp, firm tap, located where he could NOT misunderstand why he was getting smacked was enough to completely break the habit.
I wouldn’t normally hit a horse on the leg as it could cause injury…but dang it, it worked.
Just like rapping a horse in the nose with your knuckles for biting will not create a headshy horse. It will create a horse who stops trying to bite you.
I had some issues with a two year old I was training being mouthy. He didn’t ever really bite, he would just want to kind of gum on my hand when I was setting him up as for showmanship/halter. Because it seemed to be an attention-getting behavior, at first I just ignored it. But he kept doing it and I was concerned it would escalate into actual biting. I took the advice of an old-timer and made up a band of tape that fit around my knuckles. I put thumbtacks on to this backing and then put another piece of tape over the top, so just the points of the tacks were sticking out and the tacks were secured. I wore this on my hand as I worked with him on the ground. I didn’t do anything to change my behavior, and very quickly he slammed his muzzle into the tacks. He didn’t cut himself at all (he pulled away as soon as he felt the points), but he was absolutely cured. He was never mouthy again. Some people I tell this to think that I was cruel, but I made sure that he did it himself (that is, I did not move towards him with the tacks) and it was so quick and effective and didn’t really hurt him, so I think it was a great cure!
I’ve never had to deal with a kicker myself, but whenever my friends did, they would wait for the horse to threaten or attempt a kick, and then sharply boot the horse in the belly just once. And it never took a second time. Horses are smart animals and they are always on the look out for push-overs. I don’t believe in being aggressive, but you damn well better be assertive when working around 1200 lb animals that have minds of their own!
My horse rubs his head on people he doesn’t know – it’s like his barometer for how much crap he can get away with. A lady who was going to borrow him for a lesson complained to me about it one time and I told her to smack him on the cheek and he’d leave her alone. I thought her eyes were going to fall right out of her head. I shrugged and told her she could get used as a scratching post or tell him what part of his body was offending her, but the choice was up to her. I wasn’t going to hit him when he wasn’t bothering me, that was for sure.
This is a horse who knows that when he feels the dressage whip behind my leg he better shape up in a hurry, yet I can flick it all around his head during a ride to help get rid of deerflies and he never questions my intent. That’s what clear and consistent discipline gets you!
Yes! And after they quit trying to bite you then guess what? You no longer have to rap them on the nose and the head shyness eventually goes away. Amazing how that works isn’t it? I have had people tell me the same thing and my response to them is that the horse will get over it!
I have a horse that came to me very aggressive. She refused to lift her hooves and would fight and attack rather than give in. She would rare and strike out violently. I had several farriers refuse to trim her hooves because she was too dangerous. I was told by one that he would only work on her if she was sedated. I searched desperately for a farrier who was willing to try when I finally got in touch with a woman who said she would try but refused to work on a horse if it was sedated. When she showed up, I instantly felt helpless because she’s was a very small young woman and after seeing very large rough men drug around by my mare and unable to handle her I thought GREAT…she’s hopeless!!
This young girl took the time to introduce herself to my mare, making her stand still while she walked all around her. Then when it came time to lift a hoof my mare reared up aggressively and instantly the young girl punched her in the nose. I was shocked! I’d never seen anyone punch a horse, especially not a young girl. She apologized to me but told me it was necessary to protect herself from my dangerous & aggressive horse. I understood and instantly felt like she had done what was needed all along since my horse was now standing calmly without the normal crazy look in her eye.
She once again approached my horse calmly and asked her for her hoof. Low & Behold, there was no more rearing or attacking!! It took some work to get her to feel comfortable lifting her hooves but by the end of that day she was standing quietly with all four hooves nicely trimmed for the first time! & now 3 years later my mare still lift’s her hooves on command and stands perfectly for the farrier. A completely different horse & most importantly safe!
I don’t like hitting horses on the legs either, but sometimes a situation calls for drastic action. There is one moment I remember that I wasn’t proud of:
There was a three year old racehorse gelding named King, he WAS a nice little horse until he was put under the care of a groom who let him walked all over him. King wasn’t very big, 15h with shoes on but had turned into a real scumper. One morning, said groom was away so I had the luck of untacking him and washing him down.
I had to wait for a washbay, and generally, we let the horses have a pick for a few minutes while we wait. But this morning King had been galloped and was still a little hot to even pick so I wasn’t going to let him. Well, he did not like that one little bit.
He turned on me, actually attempting to savage me, striking and biting. Now, either I could have dropped the lead and let him win or go ten kinds of crazy on this little bastard. The lead had a knot at the end of it, I flogged him repeatedly across the chest (three times in total) and chased him backwards while yelling at him into the barn wall. He was still going me too, this was a full on fight for dominance here. I have never done anything like it, and haven’t since.
I did win the fight, once he submitted I stopped, but I had a black eye, fractured cheek bone and had been struck in the leg twice. It was the scariest thing I’ve ever done, the guys I worked with were gobsmacked. Poor King was pretty worked up but followed me quietly to the washbay.
I asked the boss to assign King to me, which he did, and I’ve never had a problem with him since. He was a lovely little horse. But that morning still haunts me, it just goes to show what can happen when humans let a horse be the boss. Like I said, I’m not proud of what I did. But I couldn’t let the horse win.
I’ll tell you – horses like King NEED that, or they’re going to hurt someone, worse then he hurt you. You saved him from the meat truck that day, for certain.
I have a simnilar experience with my pony, Felix. He was basically let “be a stallion” for the first 4 years of life, and I made a few mistakes the first day I had him. A good friend of mine, who seriously needs to be a training clinician took him and did EXACTLY what you did a couple times, and now he’s good as gold – I have to keep on him for every little misstep, but now that I’m not terrified of him it’s much, much better.
That’s a great response. I hope she takes the advice and fixes her mistake. I have owned horses before that were deemed “mean” or “vicious” who would do things like run over people, bite, kick etc.
My cure for this mare that would cronically try to run into me because she didn’t care/cared more about something else. While in a safe place, if she got in my bubble I would start off by tapping her shoulder – no response, growl and tap – no response, Jump up and down and holler at her. That got her attention pretty quick. Three strikes and you’re out. Next time she tried to run me over I did my 3 steps again. It took about 4 times of screaming and jumping and making a HUGE deal out of it, and now she is very respectful and attentive to what I am wanting her to do. I didn’t have to beat her, and she still “likes” me (runs up whinnying and wanting to be caught – who previously did NOT want to be caught!)
Same mare came with the title “biter” – she gives me a snarly face I raise a loud verbal hell and make her work, gives me a sweet face and I love on her and let her “rest” or soften and let her work in a softer mind set. She has never threatened to bite me, if she ever does she will not be a happy camper for quite some time.
Same mare – would try to kick if you picked up her hind feet. I tried to be nice assuming she hadn’t had much real training in this area due to some circumstances surrounding her. Nice didn’t work – so if she wouldn’t let me have her feet – I’d growl at her. If she continued to give me issues she’d get a smack. I swatted her once enough to get her attention and I have not had issues with her since, and no – smacking her did not make her afraid of me, it made her respect that I WOULD discipline her and once she knew that, she has calmed down a LOT and is a GREAT mare for me. Other people who haven’t worked through these issues with her – oh yes, she is still a bitch!
She’s currently for sale due to being a much nicer horse than I have time to train and show right now (DDG dressage, eventing, hunter/jumper type mare) but she won’t go to the wrong home because of these temperament issues that will crop up if she’s not handled correctly and consistantly. A firm and fair handler will be perfect, but she will not go to a novice, she’s just way too much horse! She is VERY VERY nice and well-mannered once she knows you have her number – So, anyone looking for a big, beautiful, young, athletic english prospect?
First you tell us to rush out and participate in abusive horse shows in order to prevent abuse.
And now Larry Trocha. Perhaps you should actually view his DVDs before claiming that he is good. Just because someone likes to fuel the propaganda that you like to spread around does not make them good. You silly woman.
I am agreeing with his letter. I am not familiar with all of his training methods, and feel no need to buy them to find out if I approve.
You know, there are a lot of politicians I wouldn’t have voted for, but that I agree with on one issue. Barbara Boxer is one of them. See how that works?
I absolutely agree with you. I don’t know anything about Larry or his training methods. But in regards to this issue and this letter, he is right on. I did not se anywhere that you endorsed him as a trainer or his method to be a good one; the only thing I saw you endorse was his response to THIS LETTER.
I get so tired of seeing people treat their horses like they are babies that need to be nurtured and coddled to create a great relationship. They are big animals who can KILL you, and they won’t care as long as they get their next meal. Horsed don’t NEED human companionship – they need food, water and shelter. We absolutely do not figure into their hierarchy of needs. If you chose to have one around, you better make sure you set some rules and boundaries and them hold them responsible for sticking to them. Horses can be very trainable, and that includes good and bad habits, and they don’t really know the difference.
I’m confused. Are you trying to make negative propaganda against Larry Trocha by encouraging us to buy his DVD’s? LMFAO!
I’m not American and don’t know who Barb Boxer is. However, I do know that in a prior post you advertise a rescue horse (one of your approved rescues) where a video clip is shown of the trainer riding. That is also a bad example of horsemanship: she doesn’t ride well first, then she is teaching the horse to move while she mounts. I wonder what your beloved Larry would say about that. It would seem that you form opinions about horsemen without any real knowledge of what they do. I do think there is a word for people like you
Are you sure it is a trainer riding? In most videos I post, it is an unpaid volunteer riding, and for the record, I DO NOT allow criticism of volunteers’ equitation. It usually comes from some asshat who spends zero time going out to hop on rescue horses they know nothing about, that may be dangerous, and therefore giving that horse a chance to be evaluated and get more stable under saddle and find a home.
Well this demonstrates your knowledge – enough said. Pretty much everyone talks about how this blog has become irrelevant and I think I agree. I was surprised that you turned down $8500 for the blog but I guess you don’t know how to properly evaluate businesses either. Maybe you should talk to someone that has a clue.
Oh yes “everyone” thinks so…which is why I’m still getting a ton of traffic over here even given how little I’ve been able to write lately.
Keep dreaming, sweetheart. Now, go poke pins in your voodoo dolls of people in show clothes and obsess about how eeeevil all showing is. By the way, when was the last time you wrote something that anyone thought was worth $8500? Yeah, I thought so.
There’s someone *coughpattycough* here who needs to learn what “butthurt” means and look into the degree to which she embodies the term. A finer example I have never seen. I guess natural horsemanship will do that to a butt.
Jesus H. Fuckbuckets, lady. If she’s so “irrelevant” then why do you keep reading and posting on her blog?
Fugly, if this site does go bye-bye, I will miss reading your posts incredibly, but I think what I will miss most is the comments section. I’ve learned so much and gotten a ton of great ideas reading through the comments and dialogue following each post. There’s so much combined experience and knowledge in a lot of the commentators that I will really be sad to lose (barring basket-cases like patty here). And I will miss the entertainment value from when some mouth-breather you outed came screaming to their defense, with a cleverly written missive contain all caps, misspellings, and lots of FUCK U LADY I TAKE GUD CAIR OF MAH HORSEZ!
Megan you just made me laugh out loud.
Jesus H. Fuckbuckets. I am so going to remember and re-use that…
LOL I think Patty may have written that letter :p
wow. i’m watching his videos on youtube. i like this guy. its common sense stuff. if you think his methods are abusive, i hope you never go to any real training barns. i know of barns that use *GASP* shank bits! seriously you need to grow up and learn this is how a lot of horses are trained.
What abusive horse shows is FHOTD telling you to ride in? the jumping shows? the reining ones? or god forbid the trail classes?
grow up. if you dont like this web site, THERE IS A LITTLE RED X IN THE TOP RIGHT HAND CORNER YOU CAN CLICK ON.
Oh, ALL showing is abusive. Just ask Patty, she’ll tell you!
I get his newsletter and was in total agreement with him. I actually was going to send it to you for you to post.
A dangerous horse is 99.99% of the time due to human error. Also rewarding bad behavior is gonna make more bad behavior. Horses don’t understand bribes honey.
I absolutely loved this post and wish I could show it to a couple of the people I have to re-train to be around their horses! I work with warmbloods and have run into more than a few owners that tell me “he just doesn’t know how big he is” my response is usually, “he knows exactly how big he is and is using it to bully you into not doing whatever it is you want him to do”. I am so tired of running into horses that have been soured by bad behavior being “loved” into them and then being asked to re-train these horses without being “abusive”. I am by no means an abusive trainer and am disgusted by thoses that use pain to train, but if a 1200 lbs animal decides he can walk on top of me because he is “scared” or “sensitive” he is going to be shown quite quickly why this is not a good idea and although I may be little, I can be as scary as a tiger. Larry said everything I have tried to say to these people nicely, but low and behold, they just don’t listen and move on to the next trainer. Let a horse be a horse – they like to know their place and respect you if you give them clear boundaries and for God’s sake, stop training bad behavior into them!
I would slightly disagree that they always know how big they are – my mare can be bad for swinging her head into you (she is pulled up for it) and she does exactly the same into objects. One stable she was in had a hay rack up (I didn’t use it) and after 4 months in the stable she still banged her head into in the same way. She is generally pretty good about personal space and that sort of thing.
Oh Lordy , there are always exceptions. I am not talking about head tossing. I am talking about horses that would walk on top of you because they have absolutely no respect for humans, and when you have 1200 to 1400 lbs pounds of fun deciding that they would rather run you over than work – you’ve got a problem more than “he just doesn’t know how big he is”.
Yeh, I’d agree with you there – I can kinda see it in a growing youngster in that they occasionally grow so fast they don’t know their own size but a fill grown adult which walks on top of you is not on, plus the horse will weigh 5-7 times a person so you really can’t let them away with that.
Must be a warmblood owner thing….I too work with warmbloods. I love all of them but we are not allowed to hit or smack, or even yell at them. All we can do is check them with the chain. Which is done so often that they really just don’t care anymore. I don’t approve of beating horses but sometimes a little discipline is in order. Especially when handling a 17 hand giant.
Dude, I LOVE Hoover but when he came to me from Riverside AC, he thought I was a small annoying bug that he could run over. He is 17.1, I am 5’3. If I had not had some Come-to-Jesus discussions with him, he would have taken out the vet, the equine dentist, and been totally unadoptable.
Now, I have snuggle bunny horsey. But it happened AFTER he got clocked with the end of the lead rope and lip chained a few times to learn that being a runaway freight train wasn’t acceptable, even if you don’t like the vet.
I love this guy – that is awesome and completely spot on!!
RULES, BOUNDARIES, AFFECTION, and when necessary… DISCIPLINE.
- I needed to hear that! I’ve owned the same mare for over 10 years now and I am guilty of placing human emotions on her. “She only tries to bite me when I tack her up because a long time ago she wore a saddle that didn’t fit”. She does the same thing when I do up her blanket straps, and I almost found myself making an excuse for her this weekend at a horse show when she was biting the bars of the stall as I put her sheet on. Instead I raised my voice and energy level and stepped into her space, you know what? I was able to finishing putting on her sheet without so much as a flick of her ear. I supposed if I place better boundries on the ground, I just get better results under saddle.
The one and only time I’ve EVER gotten bitten hard was a rescue horse who USED to have a sore back. I had already fixed the issues, but he remained cinch and snarly. I STUPIDLY (Yep, I do stupid shit too!) turned my back to him while girthing him up and I got nailed HARD but fortunately had the presence of mine to swing around and clock him a good one.
Problem solved. After that, just a growl would remind him not to bite. My whole back was black-and-blue though!
Oh i got one those types at the barn where i take lessons. Except he doesn’t have any back problems. He’s just trying to get off work. I caught him trying to bit me a couple times when I was trying to adjust his cinch. The first time I just raised my hand and then I felt sorry for him because he’s still a young horse. The second time he got a whack in the nose. Now all I got to do is give him a stern look and he realizes trying to bite is a bad idea. It’s not so easy to make clear boundaries for school horses because they carry all different kinds of riders on their backs everyday day.
I’ve been bitten hard on the back once, it’s the only time I’ve been properly bitten. Was cleaning the box of a cranky 2yo colt (who had a history of biting), I’d had a rough morning and wasn’t paying attention to him. He snuck up and grabbed me, so I whipped around and whacked him with the rake. Only the once, and snarled at him pretty good.
He’d got me on the shoulder blade and had torn the skin pretty good, I had a yellow shirt on and the entire back of it was red with blood. The pain was bad enough to put me into shock, and I have a pretty high tolerance.
After that, I had a rule with him. The horses had a box and a day yard. If I was cleaning the yard, he stayed in the box. If I was doing the box, he stayed in the yard. And woe him if he set a hoof into my space. I found this method worked well with snarky horses. Most of mine (the ones under my care) were pretty good and moved happily out of the way with the click of the tongue. But at any one time, we have 52 horses in work(race horses), of course we get the meanies thrown in there.
Yup – My little yellow bastard bit me while grooming the first week I had him, fortunately he hit my rather thick bra strap and so did’nt break skin (had a bruse the size of a fist afterwards though). Immediate elbow in the offending mouth along with a lot of loud noises – thank god the lesson kids were’nt in the barn at the time!! He still goes in for a nibble now and then – if I catch him THINKING about it he gets a growl, and if he actually approaches me with his mouth I do one of 2 things:
Elbow in the way so he hits himself on it
or
nice stiff dandy brush, buisness end out for him to run into.
He likes nither one of these things, and rarely tries it anymore(I’ve had him for a couple months now). Both of these soloutions are passive, and the horse gets consequesnces when he goes to do badness. Giving him a carrot would just encourage him!
http://www.felixfjord.blogspot.com
that reminds me of the first time I got bitten. I had just rescued this little welsh mare and I had finished brushing her and put on her rug for the second or third time. She had behaved when I rugged her before, but as I went to do up one of her leg straps, she turned around and bit me on the thigh. She never did it again and I only got a very small bruise, but god it hurt!
http://www.operationhorserescue.blogspot.com
Oh ouch. Well, in many ways he is right– most of those horse problems are caused by owners who let the issues go unchallenged, or try to reason through the issue. Sad thing is, most of these people also do the same thing with their kids, with as little success.
HOWEVER… people who sell horses frequently lie. They cheat, they flat out rip off customers. I don’t know if that is the situation with this horse, but I’m willing to bet that if the seller had simply said, “Hey, come ride him for a few weeks, see if you two will get along,” then she would have been able to back out of the situation when she realized the horse wasn’t going to work for her. Want to bet that instead, it was more along the lines of, “Well, you can wait to think about it, but I have three other (imaginary) people who want to come try him out tonight, and it’s whoever brings the money…”
There are good horses that just don’t work for inexperienced handlers. I have one in the barn right now, and she’s a royal wreck, thanks to some well meaning ignorant owners who bought her, took her home, and determined that she had been drugged at the seller’s place, because she was so quiet there. Well, guess what…. It’s taking me months, but she is gradually, slowly, getting calm, getting her mind back, and no longer living in fear that I will try to put the saddle on backwards, or tie her to a plow, or in some other way abuse her trust. She isn’t safe for inexperienced people, and she should NEVER have been sold to inexperienced people. I doubt she was ever drugged– she simply can’t handle being treated like a piece of old fruit, instead of the high quality, newly trained horse that she is.
Let the buyer beware was the old adage– I think we are beginning to head into an era where it will become “Let the SELLER beware.” It used to be the ripoff dealers would just move to a new area when they had used up the clientele where they were located. Now we have Net, we have cell phones, and people TALK. Eventually it will become required or expected for sellers to be honest about known problems.
As for the lady in the Email, she can’t and shouldn’t solve the problem with her horse. The first time she tries, she will probably get attacked. It’s time for a full time trainer who knows how to deal with rank horses, and it’s time for her to take some lessons in horse handling with a horse that won’t kill her when she does it right. A horse that threatens to kick, contrary to Mr. Trocha’s description, isn’t offering an empty threat. ANY horse that threatens to kick you means it, and will do so if they are pushed. That horse needs a good beating, and he needs it from someone who knows horses, or he’ll kill someone.
Where in his description did he say a threat to kick was an empty threat? On the contrary, he described her dead on the ground.
I think you’re right that she needs a pro, simply because if she is this lacking in ability to read horses, she will never be safe around one during a confrontation.
Alliecat, I was thinking about his description of the horse’s thinking, when the horse decides to threaten the woman, and he gets a treat, so he decides to actually kick her to see if he gets two treats.
I know he was just using the illustration to make a point, but my point is that horses don’t generally ‘fake’ trying to kick. A horse that threatens to kick is telling the owner that he WILL kick if they don’t resolve the situation. That’s fine if the owner really pounds the horse the first time, every time. Frequently then the horse never does try to kick. If, however, the horse isn’t punished for the threat, the next step is to quit threatening, and they WILL kick.
I guess I would illustrate what I mean by this example: When a new horse comes in, there are some threats, and quickly that horse’s pecking order gets established. The REAL fights come when that horse tries to move up in pecking order after it has been established. That is when the subordinate horse ignores or chooses to confront a threat, and therefore the dominant horse (in this case the owner is subordinate) has to assert its authority more firmly, by giving the sub some good old fashioned butt kicking.
My mother once agreed to feed some neighboring horses during a vacation. When she went out into the paddock to give grain/hay, the yearling filly pinned her ears. Mom yelled at her to back off, and the filly promptly spun and kicked HARD, missing Mom by about an inch– she felt the breeze go by her face. She left, and called me. I went there, with a buggy whip and a bucket of grain. I can tell you right now, if I had hit that filly any fewer times, or any slower, with that buggy whip, she’d have gotten me. She came up to me, ears pinned, I told her to back up, she tensed to attack and I went after her. She gave ground and ran, but for about three seconds the look on her face was absolutely terrifying– she was furious, and fully ready to attack me. I just hit hard and fast enough to ‘win’ the battle. My mom would not have had the physical ability to do the same thing. I dumped the grain in, and pulled the feeders over to the fence, which the owners should have done to begin with. Then I told Mom to throw everything over the fence and not enter the pen– if the horses needed something, call me.
Horses are very focused on pecking order, and once you are on the bottom, you will have ten times the problems going on top than a stranger will have. The woman may have caused this problem, but she can’t fix it. THAT is the argument I have with Mr. Trocha’s suggestion that he is ‘thinking about what a kick would get him.” Horses don’t think that way. Then again, he probably knows that, and was just trying to use an analogy the woman would understand.
I think he was more interested in showing Sue how much danger actually put herself in, than trying to explain horse behavior to her, because she is so delusional or ignorant at this point that she wouldn’t be able to grasp the concept of pecking order.
Holy shit I want to marry that man!!
http://36andsingle.blogspot.com/
Totally agree. I wonder how many good meaning people get into horses, only to treat it like a dog, then end up w/a dangerous animal. It happened to me! I got my first horse when I was 32 yrs old. I did NOT know any better, but w/in a month, my horse went from being nice to just being horrible.
Thankfully, I was at a boarding barn, and was approached in the middle of me ugly crying after being soooo frustrated. My horse was pastured w/a few mares and another gelding. When I would get my horse, the other gelding would run over and take MY horses mares.
This would PISS off my horse. Once out of the pasture, I had to walk up a steep ditch, my horse would rear and shake me off the leadrope. Once freed, he would race around his pasture trying to get his mares back. He was never in any danger of traffic, but it was so embarrassing.
This happened a few times, and this time, I had enough! People would run out w/grain to help me catch him. This time I didnt care, I shut down. I went to the barn and just sat down and started to UGLY CRY out of frustration.
Thankfully, the trainer was there. He told me that my horse would KILL me if I didnt get help. This was the FIRST time I was smacked in the face w/the reality that was becoming w/me and my horse.
I put him into training the next day, but honestly, I WAS THE PROBLEM. I went into training, and learned to be a HORSE NAZI. Needless to say, my horse wasnt the problem.
People had tried to “help” me, but they were TOO nice to me.
This was over 8 yrs ago. Honestly, I still remember how frustrated I was at that moment. Had someone one offered me $10 for my horse, I would have accepted it. I would have said that I “TRIED” Horse riding, but it just didnt work out, and probably would have walked away from horses.
NOW, I couldnt picture my life w/out horses. I still own him, and love him to death, but I have his upmost respect. We are a team. He knows what I expect of him, it is black and white.
I THANK GOD that someone was brutally honest to me. Thankfully, I was never hurt, but I know that wasnt that far away from probably happening. Once you lose respect, it goes downhill SUPER fast, lol.
“SUE” may decide to get help and if she finds someone good, she find horses fun again. It isnt rocket science to fix, just be consistant, and dangit, when you ask a horse to do something, USE your body to make them do it, NOW!
AWESOME POST.
That probably helped a lot of people … great to read that you can start out as a doormat and find your spine and have a HAPPY partnership with your horse!
I had the same thing happen… My horse learned that if she kicked me while I was leading her, she got to run away and get out of work while I curled up in a ball and cried. I took her to a trainer and she was great for him. I’ll never forget one thing that he said to me while she was there: “You mean you would bring her treats all the time and taught her to give you kisses and she turned around and kicked you? I can’t imagine why she would be mean to you when you were so nice to her.” (I’m a very sarcastic person, so I got the message)
“I put him into training the next day, but honestly, I WAS THE PROBLEM. I went into training, and learned to be a HORSE NAZI. Needless to say, my horse wasnt the problem.
People had tried to “help” me, but they were TOO nice to me.”
Shermy,
You’re one in a million. I wish I could give your post to everyone who ever told me I was “too mean” when I tried to stop them from being killed or maimed. Mostly it’s the NHers who have misunderstood the concept of allowing their horse to make a decision. That doesn’t mean the horse gets to look around the universe and decide what works for them. That means, they can do what you ask, or you can make their life miserable. That’s their choice. That’s the only choice they get. I guess that makes me another HORSE NAZI.
Thanks! Honestly, I like to think i’m intelligent. I have always had cats and dogs. I had decided to lease a horse and did for a year. He put up w/me. I worked retail, so worked weekends, off during the week. It was a small barn, so I was ALWAYS alone. I was able to do what I wanted w/him. I only could go out twice a week, so he just put up w/me. I was able to ride the county roads. The people decided to sell their horses, so I bought him.
Once at the new barn, when put out w/mares, he decided I was no longer fun. I took him away from his mares. Things went downhill FAST!
I dont think non horse people have ANY idea on the HUGE learning curve there is w/horses. They are NOT dogs.
About three weeks ago at a clinic, I ran into a boarder from when I first bought my horse. She was one that tried to help me, but was just too nice about it. She was only at the barn for two months while her farmette was finished.
Anywho, since reconnected w/her. We have gone trail riding. She has a new retired racehorse that is pretty green. How things can change, my horse (same one as what used to walk all over me) is now the steady eddy to her youngster. She told me that she thought of me a while ago, wondered if
1) If I was still into horses.
2) If my horse had ever seriously hurt or killed me.
LOL, everytime we’ve met up to ride, she tells me how proud she is of me that I didnt give up and just sell him. I was in sooo over my head, but didnt know what or why he had changed.
It scared me how CLOSE I was to just quitting. My life would be soo different if I had, it is scary. My salvation comes from my saddle time. I know I would not have been near as happy had I given up horses. I was not raised around horses at all, so at 32 yrs old, I was so wet behind my ears.
Now, I am NOT the too nice person when I see a newbie w/a horse. I have come soo far, and just today, my BO asked me if I wanted to start to teach lessons to beginner riders. Of course, I was soooo flattered at it brought back those memories of me sitting on the ground just crying while my horse was running around his pasture trying to get back to his mares after he shook me off the leadrope for the tenth time.
So, I am proof, if you get help, you can learn and now…….. teach people how not to do the same mistakes. I’m teaching three lessons on Tuesday
You can BET my students will learn how to be little horse NAZI’s 
I wish I knew “SUE”, cuz she would feel so empowered once she gained her horses respect. I bet the look on her horses’s face would be priceless once he got a COME TO JESUS moment, lol.
AND, I am meeting my new reconnected riding buddy at the local horse trails tomorrow for a ride. We are doing an endurance ride in two weeks. Life is good!! AND…. my horse is the BEST guy, today, he spent the day giving pony rides to little kids. He was never the problem, he was just being a horse. I allowed his bad behavior, but since I became his leader, he has become the perfect horse and so much happier than when he was walking all over me. Consistant handling makes horses so much grounded, they know what the rules are
Shermy, I can so relate. I was 33 when I got my first horse, or rather horses, 3 Arabs. My own place, so not help. I tried to put bit in one horses, no luck, tried 30 minutes, gave up and went away crying. Sure I had made a horrible mistake. Determined in my own way, I perservered thru many more difficulties. Now I have 11 horses 20 years have gone by and I too give lessons. It pays to start later and understand the beginner’s difficulties.
Hey, even my dead-broke, carry-you-around-in-a-basket gelding gets his knickers in a twist once in a while and lifts a foot while I’m cleaning his sheath or something. My arm goes up and it smacks him before I even think about it. I’m not angry. It’s just what happens. And I yell at him. The message is, “Be responsible!”
My sisters rescued a TB mare from an auction and put her in my barn. Every time I was grooming her and that little hind leg went up, she got a smack. When she put it down, she got a pat. She dropped that habit in two days.
If my little gelding were to become rude and dangerous, it would break my heart. I’ve had him for ten years and we’ve never had a bad day together. You can discipline a horse and never wreck its enthusiasm. When they give you what you want, you give the good back. That’s love.
I agree, that guy totally deserves a medal!
With that said, how can there be so many people who are so delusional about horses to the point they think a horse that’s trying to kick them loves them??
I can’t afford to spend a lot of time around horses. I’ve been taking riding lessons for 3 years one a week and mostly what Is some brushing, tacking up and ride for about an hour. Yet I’ve managed to learn that a)horses need to be taught to RESPECT you, they don’t care how many hugs and treats you give them they will not do anything for you unless they respect you and b)DISCIPLINE does not = abuse.
Ugh, this drives me crazy! No wonder so many horses end up at the slaughterhouse when there are so many idiots out who go and buy a horse thinking they’re buying a puppy!
ugh I meant to say *mostly what i get to do
need to start paying more attention before i post :S
Being part of that age group I can identify with Sue. However, what Larry says makes total sense, he is so right. I found that is true with dogs years ago. I had friend who actually inadvertently taught the dog to be afraid of people. She would had them treats for them to give her dog when it acted scared. Her thoughts were that the dog would think that people were not so bad they give me treats. What it actually did was teach the dog when it is scared it got treats.
I have a Morgan/Belgian cross that is currently at a friends house being worked. She is a tiny thing and the horse is a big guy who is used to using his size to intimidate. She is not standing for it and he has learned that tiny can be mighty!
LOL When I was a kid, we had a cat who scratched the couch. When he did that, my mom put him outside. One day she was sick — so she threw a paperback book at him. He gave her a startled look — and never scratched the couch again. We’d trained him that if he wanted outside, he was supposed to scratch the couch. Boy, did we feel dumb.
When I’m running into trouble with a horse — I try to step back and look at things step by step to see where the issue is.
Thsi sounds like my BF’s cat – He has a scratching thing attached to the end of a couch, but it’s noisy when he really gets into it at night – if you yell, he ignores you, and one night I didn’t want to get out of bed and make him stop – so I threw a small pillow at him. Now, he listens when I yell.
http://www.felixfjord.blogspot.com
“If Champ had a “PEOPLE TRAINING” DVD, every horse in the neighborhood would buy it because he really knows his stuff.”
This line deserves an award.
I thought so too. I LOVED THAT LINE!
I think I’m going to check out the guys blog, that was GREAT! Having to be a leader with my mare helped me become a better leader in my life. You don’t have to be a bully to be firm and fair. Even people don’t respect someone they can walk all over.
i love this! i got the email earlier today and wanted to send him flowers….
A friend of mine sold gorgeous roan mare to a couple one time. A week later the couple called because the mare wouldn’t leave the barn anymore…ok, no problem. We rode out there to see the problem (always want happy buyers after all) and the woman said…and I quote, “I don’t know WHY she doesn’t trust me, I go out in the pasture every day and pet her and give her treats”. Should have loaded the mare up and left then, but we pushed on. Then the husband got on her, tried to ride off and was incapable of turning her around when she decided to go back. Not that the mare was especially strong or smart, apparently he just couldn’t sit in the saddle and use the reins at the same time. My friend got on her, popped her on the butt with the rein, just once, and she rode off no problem. There are some people…ok alot of people…who should just not own horses.
Well, I disagree that horses are incapable of love…I’ve seen too many horses that have close pasture-buddies or are truly affectionate with their riders to believe that. I think all social animals, horses included, are capable of love. It’s an important part of forming the social bond with their herdmates.
However, all the rest of it? FUCK YEAH. I remember being eight years old and wanting desperately to be my pony’s best friend, bringing her treats all the time, never using my crop…and I ended up with a broken arm.
When I got back into riding at fifteen, I rode at a small stable owned by an incredible horsewoman. She trained me how to handle horses, and trained me bloody well. There was an older gelding at the stable who was normally quite gentle and given to the beginners, but after a few years he started getting arthritic and irritable and snappy. He made a game out of taking chunks out of the arms of kids who walked by. The kids, of course, did nothing. “Wellington bit me!” They wailed, holding their arms out to me.
“Did you smack him?”
“I don’t wanna hurt him!”
…right.
So one day I’m walking down the corridor, past Wellington, who’s in the crossties. And out of the corner of my eye, I see his head snaking around to bite. Just out of reflex, I swung my arm around, and I caught him right across the face.
Wellington never tried to bite me again.
I agree that horses love. I’ve seen it too many times to doubt. They can love people, they can love other horses, they can love their jobs. Used to ride a morgan that you couldn’t point near a jump or he’d try to go for it — when he was 28. I have a nasty-tempered (that’s why I ended up with him) that my nearly beginner teenage daughter wanted to ride. This horse is DIFFICULT despite a lot of training. He doesn’t give me any trouble . . . but he is a real bully. We were short horses one ride and my daughter is an athlete — so she got to hop up as long as she agreed to hop off whenever I told her to. He didn’t put a foot wrong with her. He never tries to bully her and they get along like a house on fire.
However, they will love you More if you are the alpha who they can trust to put limits down and take care of them. They, like children — heck like adults — are happiest if they know what they can do and what they can’t do. Treats are wonderful, but my horse goes willingly and bravely into scary situations with me and trusts me to take care of him because I am the boss, not because I feed him treats (which I do).
I took a horse to my trainer — and we lead her four miles because we couldn’t get her loaded in the trailer (it was hot, she was hot, we were hot — I decided that someone was going to get hurt if we didn’t break it off). He trained her for six months. When we picked her up, he lead her right into the trailer, no fuss, no bother. I looked at him and said, “You never trained her to trailer.” “No.” But she knew he was the boss, that he wouldn’t let her get hurt — and that she had no choice but to do as he said.
Not my hero.
Here’s what I posted over there, in case he doesn’t publish it–my comment is awaiting moderation.
“While it is clear that you are right that this is a disrespectful and dangerous horse with a timid, inexperienced owner in over her head, I do not appreciate your repeated implication that clicker training is some way for overly emotional horse owners to avoid enforcing boundaries with their horses. Clicker training has more science behind it than most training paradigms, “natural” or otherwise. If clicker training were the way to create a disrespectful, pushy animal, why would Sea World and zoos use it to train large, predatory mammals where one slip-up can mean the trainer is not just attacked but mauled in front of a crowd of visitors?
Aversives are not inherently abusive. I do admit that some clicker trainers feel they are, and I think those people are probably not accounting for individual animals’ behavior when they make that assessment. We have all met animals that respond miles and miles better after a quick and stern correction. But everyone who has genuinely studied clicker training understands that clicker isn’t about lovey mooshy scooshy bonding, it’s about giving your animal a clear signal when he does the right thing, and using operant conditioning principles pioneered by Skinner and in use at zoos and marine parks around the world to shape and solidify good behaviors while extinguishing bad behaviors.
Larry, you sound like a very good horse trainer, but I’m willing to bet good money that Alexandra Kurland could train circles around you if both of you were given 50 head or so of horses from various backgrounds with various levels of training and asked to prepare them all to show. Clicker training is extremely valuable to trainers in that it teaches the science behind animal behavior and hastens one’s reaction time. It should be in every trainer’s toolbox, whether or not he or she also uses aversives.”
I clicker train. I also give a pop with the lead shank, a crop, a palm, or my knuckles when it’s warranted. Why? I approach my horses based on what will create the behavior I want. Not how I feel emotionally about it. Yes, I’m a wimp sometimes and my trainer has to give me the occasional kick in the butt if I don’t correct my horse quickly enough; but I think we’re all like that with our own babies. The bottom line is, I have used a combination of positive reinforcement (including lots of clicker) and aversives for years with a great deal of success, including with more than one horse who was recommended for euthanasia due to misbehavior before I started working with him.
A basic understanding of animal behavior, operant conditioning, classical conditioning, and equine body language, combined with a weekly lesson with a good trainer, will give anyone the ability to work with the average horse successfully, no matter what method they use. I have had it up to here with the assumption that clicker is for people who don’t want to face up to the occasional need to correct a horse. Frankly, I think writing OFF clicker training is for people who don’t want to face up to having to read a couple books, do some practice, and carry an extra prop, in exchange for getting an excellent new way to communicate with their horse, one which can be employed when you want it and dropped when you don’t.
My interpretation of Larry’s negativity on clicker training is that it is unnatural to the horse, albeit they can learn that the sound represents reward. IMO my voice and body language do the same thing as a clicker as I release when the horse achieves the correct response to my ‘question’. Instead of click, I change my body language or actions from a level “whatever is needed” to a zero. Or I say gooooood in a soft voice just as the perfect response is given to me. There are no clickers in the wild so I don’t believe they’re necessary to train any animal when a voice and body language will do just as well. Not that it hurts anything but I find clicker training trendy and unnecessary as are the speshul name-brand carrot sticks and rope halters that are $60 a pop!!! Cheap rope halters and lunge whips work just as well. The CA stick is way too heavy for me to lug around!
“Instead of click, I change my body language or actions There are no clickers in the wild so I don’t believe they’re necessary to train any animal when a voice and body language will do just as well.”
Voice and body language work, but a clicker is faster and more consistent and can work better. You would be surprised at the precision you can have by using a better tool. And the silliness about no treats and no clickers in the wild…also no halters, no bridles, no dressage whip, and biggest of all, NO RIDING
I find the clicker approach interesting – so I had to go back and read all the comments. This is what I found in the comments:
July 26, 2011
Monique Hamerslag
9:51 pm
Reply
Dear Larry,
Real operant conditioning (which you use as well even if you aren’t aware of it and without treats) has nothing to do with bribery. You might try reading Alexandra Kurlands books.
Kind regards,
Monique Hamerslag
July 26, 2011
LarryTrocha
10:05 pm
Reply
@Monique Hamerslag: The way this woman is using treats has nothing to do with Alexandra Kurland’s book. Better read the article again.
Larry T.
July 26, 2011
Ann
10:38 pm
Reply
I am very afraid for her. I am also sad to see her once very nice horse heading in the direction of the meat market.
Every month that goes by the horse is getting a little older, less marketable, and as the horse ages no one will want to spend the time and money to try to retrain the horse.
I own a retired pasture horse that I once sold as a very nice eight year old general riding horse for $7,000. Seven years later he was given back to me free of charge. He had become a very spooky, somewhat pushy, “older” horse with no work ethic whatsoever. He had injured two people from the stories I was told. These are all things he had learned with his other owners.
I simply pasture him and he lives happily out there with his herd. There was no point in trying to retrain him again at such a late age and trying to sell him again. He is old now as he has been in pasture for almost six years.
I hope for the horse’s sake that this woman has been on the phone by now getting a really good trainer. She needs to get the horse turned around ASAP so that she can find him a good home. She needs to forget about all the latest fads in horse training and find someone by asking around and getting references.
BTW – I do know a lot about clicker training. It is not recommended for horses for a couple of reasons. First, is “mugging”. Horses can be very dangerous if they decide to start demanding treats and become hostile about it. Second, unlike dogs, you never want a horse to “offer” behaviors spontaneously. With clicker training dogs will sometimes “offer” various trained behaviors in order to see if they can get rewarded. For example, if you have taught a dog to do a trick like “take a bow”, a dog may suddenly decide to do “take a bow” without you asking for it, or perhaps they will decide to do a command like “sit” to see if you will reward it. While OK for dogs, naturally, this can be very dangerous with horses.
July 26, 2011
LarryTrocha
11:06 pm
Reply
@Ann: Hi Ann. Thank you so much for your input about clicker training. You point out the exact reasons I’m not in favor of it. Another reason I’m not in favor of it for training horses is it simply isn’t necessary nor does it produce good results as far as performance horses are concerned. It has it’s place (the circus and the military dolphins) but performance horses isn’t one of theme.
Take care and thanks again.
Larry T.
********************************************************************************
I think that all methods are not for everyone, and that each method requires talent/skills to perform. I don’t know if I would have the patience nor timing for clicker training – but I wouldn’t rule it out for anyone if it worked for them. I think the main point with “Sue” is that it wasn’t working for her, she wasn’t doing it (or apparently many other methods} properly. I do hope his reply did ‘shock’ her into a safe action for a positive outcome.
I agree with Larry.
It simply isn’t necessary.
Horses have been trained SUCCESSFULLY to be nice horses for a zillion years without clickers. It’s just a gimmick. I don’t care if it works or doesn’t work, it’s not necessary. It’s a gadget that isn’t needed.
Used IN COMBINATION with correction, I’ve found clicker training to be exceptionally effective. The “mugging” argument against clicker training is bull; the VERY FIRST thing I used clicker training to teach my horse was to NOT mug me. He was beginning to try to mug for treats (no nipping or biting, just closed-mouth snuffling) before I ever started clicker training; wanting him to stop was what finally got me to really try clicker training in the first place. In less than 15 minutes, I had eliminated his mugging behavior, and the harshest correction I had to use was to turn my back on him and ignore him for 20 seconds. Now if he wants a treat, instead of trying to insert his face into my pockets, he pulls his nose back AWAY from me and makes the most polite, respectful face he can muster. (And just because he asks politely doesn’t mean I have to give him one.) Yeah, I could have smacked his face every time he tried mugging me, and he probably would have stopped eventually, but unlike some of the other “I did it once and the horse/dog/cat was cured of that behavior forever!” stories, that wasn’t the case for my guy; smacking him once for it did not end the behavior, and I wasn’t really excited about the prospect of smacking him repeatedly if I didn’t have to. I would have, if I’d had to, but happily it turned out I didn’t because this worked like a charm. It also would have ended the mugging but wouldn’t have replaced it with him attempting to demonstrate what an Incredibly Good Boy he is – I like that rather than just thinking “oh well, treats are not self-serve” (which is undeniably great on its own), he’s actively thinking, “Let me show her how very, very polite I can be.”
I don’t carry a clicker around; I make the noise with my mouth. And believe me, I am by no means anti-correction! I am all about giving him a smack if he is doing something that deserves one. But to say clicker training is “not necessary,” well, neither are a lot of other training tools and techniques. Helpful, effective, but not *necessary* – the same effect can be achieved with other means. I judiciously use side-reins when lunging him, which have been a wonderfully helpful tool. But not strictly necessary; I could get the same results without them, it would just take a lot longer and be a lot harder, and all things being equal, I don’t see any point in making things harder for myself than they have to be. I feel the same way about clicker training. I used it to help my horse make the connection much faster that I wanted him to stretch his head and neck down at the trot (though there were no treats involved – the ‘treat’ was being told “Good boy!” after the click). I could certainly have gotten that concept through to him without making a clicking noise, but he figured it out *much* faster with me being able to more precisely tag the behavior I was praising.
To clarify, I used clicking to teach him I wanted him to stretch down at the trot *on the lunge line* – not under saddle. Under saddle I have reins and legs and such, and use those to work on those concepts with him.
The cynic in me just pictured a clicker trainer trying to click at the moment her horse cleared his first 4′ oxer. Does the clicker stay in her mouth or perhaps the backside of the breeches for the correctly timed click? I can’t imagine carrying anything going cross country, performing a piaffe, playing polo or trying to achieve a fast, correct spin. What happens when a horse accustomed to “click, treat” is competing and doesn’t get his desired click? Does the missing click turn into an addiction that a horse has to have, like nicotine? I’ll stick to what I know works – horse psychology with rest for reward. Cookies are for after the ride or just because I want to. No rhyme or reason, no expectation for the horse, no bribery from me. Clear communication, trust, respect. It works 100% of the time.
See, your perspective is mine. What, I’m supposed to click and feed a treat when a green horse lets me hit the polo ball for the first time? Ooooohkay that’s going to work.
No one is trying to scare amateurs off of riding or training. We just want you to learn to do it the traditional way that works pretty much every time, is ALSO not stressful for the horse or you, and doesn’t require a gadget or a pocket full of treats to work.
I’m with you on that one. I’m by no means an expert in training, but I’m proud to have been born in a country with a long tradition in horse training and breeding – Portugal – where it has been done effectively without any need for fancy tricks or gimmicks. Yes, the horses are shooed, saddled, ridden in bridle or double bridles (depending on the horse and the rider’s skill) and are trained with the use of whips and spurs. And the portuguese breeders are have done a damn good job in making the Lusitano one of the finest horse breeds in the world. Natural horsemanship here means treating the horses as horses, talking to them in their own language and using body language to train them, rewarding them with release and disciplining them when they need to be discipline.
If you want to see the results of it for yourself, go here http://www.horsefairlusitano.org/ingles/ingles.asp and check the gallery section, or got to their FB page. You will see riders and horses of all ages, stallions, geldings and mares riding together with the middle of a crowd of thousands of people and they’re all perfectly calm and under control. Now I’m not saying there aren’t some riders doing some things I don’t agree with, it is a public event and people some times people do some stupid things to show off. I’m just saying that you can make a horse safe by treating it like a horse without the need for any speshull tricks or gimmicks.
Having said that, I personally don’t have anything against clicker training, since it’s not an abusive method, but like others have said, it seems pretty unnecessary to me.
So, Fugs, I take it that you don’t deworm your horses, you don’t give them supplements, you don’t wear modern riding apparel, you don’t use a forged bit, you keep them barefoot, and you ride bareback? Oh, and you ride them TO shows, instead of trailering, right? Since nothing new can possibly be an improvement if people didn’t need it thousands of years ago?
I love you, but you and Larry both need to get off the case of successful horse owners who are using methods that work for them. If someone is working with their horse and is happy and is getting results, that’s not an invitation to start criticizing their methods and saying “Gee, I see that working for you, but I prefer to believe it doesn’t work for anyone, because I don’t personally use it.”
This is what drives amateurs out of the horse world: As soon as they find something they enjoy doing with their horses, ten or twelve kibitzers show up to tell them ten or twelve different things they should be doing instead. You’re hurting him, try Parelli! You’re spoiling him, throw away the clicker! You’re ruining him, get a classical dressage trainer! And off goes the amateur to look for a hobby where someone, anyone will say, “Hey, looks like you’re having fun and getting the results you want–good job!”
It’s not that nothing can be an improvement if we didn’t need it thousands of years ago, but I’ve seen people use clicker training and all I’ve seen it result in is a treats-obsessed, unfocused horse.
I’ve certainly seen the same. But it isn’t as if either you or I have never seen a treat-obsessed, unfocused horse that’s never seen a clicker! I find that clicker horses are less likely to outright mug you for treats, because they know they have to earn their clicks. I have a gelding who is very orally fixated (he undoes buckles, unties knots, opens gates, takes off blankets and fly masks of his neighbors — I’m told his sire is the same way and had to have his toys taken out of his paddock for throwing them at cars passing by!!!) and clicker has actually been a big help in reducing the mouthiness. I try to train behaviors where one of my requirements is that he is doing something constructive with his lips–for instance, in his “bow” behavior (useless but cute) one of the requirements for a click is that his lips touch the ground instead waggling around waiting for a treat.
Whenever I do feel him questing around for something to nibble on, like gloves or hoody strings, it’s when I’m NOT asking him for a behavior and clicking it, and instead I’m being dumb enough to not pay attention to an idle, too smart for his own good, bored horse. The clicker used properly takes the drive to mug for treats away, because he knows he’ll get treats when he figures out how to get the click, so it gets completely redirected to getting that click.
Now–I think I said this earlier, and I’ll repeat it: Clicker training is really easy to do wrong, and because the reinforcement is so powerful, retraining a grabby clicker horse is a PAIN. It can be done and I’ve done it, but people shouldn’t be encouraged to just start clicking as if there’s no way to screw your horse up with that, and some of the clicker manuals are guilty of acting like that’s the case. It’s not hard to do right, but it takes a little practice and some help if you’re not used to it, especially if inexperienced with horses. I don’t suggest that anyone try it with their horse without someone who has some clicker experience watching and correcting them if they’re timing the click wrong. Reinforcing the wrong behavior can be a really bad thing. But after a couple of sessions with a helper, even most fairly mature children can use a clicker with their horses and not cause any problems, have a lot of fun, and train some neat behaviors.
Wow, that guy may be able to train well with his methods, but he fails one of the most basic tests of general intelligence–knowing what you don’t know. “Isn’t recommended for horses?” Should have said “I don’t recommend it, because I feel…” because there certainly are people more experienced and more successful than him who DO recommend clicker training for horses. I guess he’s never heard of Karen Pryor or Alex Kurland…
He should just admit that he’s not terribly familiar with clicker training and he doesn’t think most owners get good results from it. He’s clearly no expert. “Mugging” happens when you give horses treats for free, not when you clicker train correctly. And offering behaviors spontaneously is certainly a good thing in horses, if managed correctly. There is never an absence of behavior in any animal. Even if the behavior is “stand perfectly still,” they are always offering a behavior. If your horse tends to offer “fidget and paw while tied,” wouldn’t you rather have him start offering behaviors you might reward, so that you can put one (say, “touch your nose to the hitching rail and hold it”) on a cue and have a horse that stands tied as still as a rock?
I wish horse people weren’t always so certain that everyone else’s methods DON’T work. It’s all in who’s using it, no matter what the method is. Nobody has to use a clicker, but telling people who get excellent results from it that their well-behaved and well-trained horses are actually vicious muggers and dangerous? Yeah, that guy needs to put away the keyboard, I’m sure he has stalls to muck.
You may have noticed a distinct lack of human voices, crops, longe lines, saddles, bridles, spurs, stalls, and hay bales in the wild, too, if you’ve ever been around wild horses. We don’t do anything to horses that’s natural for them. For instance, we generally don’t let them starve to death if it’s a hard winter, and most conscientious people don’t turn their stallions out together to fight over mares.
“Natural for the horse” and “better for the horse” aren’t the same thing. For some horses, clickers are better than voices. The click has ONE meaning: “You did that right.” Your voice could have 10,000 meanings. There have been MRI studies done showing that clicker training activates regions of the brain associated with the deepest, most instinctual kinds of learning; that’s why it works on animals like goldfish and alligators that aren’t typically “trainable.” It goes into the “reptile brain” and programs it to know that a certain behavior is reinforced.
I don’t care what’s natural for my horse. I care what gets me the results I want most effectively and with the least stress to my horse. Frequently, that’s a clicker. When he was head-shy and couldn’t be bridled after coming off the track, I could have fought with him about it, I could have spent weeks slowly conditioning him, but I didn’t feel like doing either of those things, so I whipped out a clicker and some “carrot coins” and taught a head-lowering behavior that’s incompatible with raising his head and panicking. I haven’t reinforced that behavior with food in over four years and he still does it every time within 1-2 seconds of the cue.
I agree. I haven’t actually seen much clicker training used on horses, but it’s very common in the dog world. I’ve been using it to train my horse to do some tricks. He plays fetch, among other things. They’re pretty “useless” tricks as far as “training” goes, but neat and fun.
Here is why I support clicker training – it teaches the animal to do what you want, while still allowing it to think for itself. Conventional training involves giving the horse a clear signal what you want, getting after them if they ignore you and giving them a reward (whether it’s a treat, or simply a release of the rein) when they do what you want. Clicker training (at least, I’m assuming by ‘clicker training’ you also mean ‘shaping’) is like playing that old game “warmer, warmer… cooler, hot”, guiding the person to what you want them to do, rewarding them (click, treat) each time they get closer.
The difference is very subtle. I haven’t seen purely clicker-trained horses, so I can only tell you what shaping does to dogs. A dog (like mine, though my puppy will be shaped) who has been trained in the conventional manner, when faced with some new question and NOT told what to do, will generally try a few times (if at all) then give up and wait for someone to show it what to do. A dog that is clicker trained will never stop trying new things – it thinks “if this isn’t what he/she wants, what about this?”
Both methods, you end up getting an animal that does what you want it to do. However, conventional training has you telling the animal what you want, whereas clicker training has the animal figuring it out for itself.
I prefer the second option. Why? Say I am going into a jump, and the take-off distance will be nasty unless something’s changed. The conventionally trained horse will go “Wow, that’s going to be nasty – Mom will tell me what to do. If she doesn’t, it’s obvious this (take-off) is what she wants, because she always tells me what she wants.” The clicker/shaping trained horse will go “Wow, that’s going to be nasty – I think I can fix it if I do this.” I want my horse to listen to me when I’m riding (that’s why you train responses to cues, regardless of your method), but at the same time, I want it to be able to think its own way out of a tight situation. A horse, ultimately, knows how to jump (or how to stay on its feet around a too-tight turn, how to climb a rocky hill) better than the rider. I want my horse to be able to make its own decisions when I need it to, but still listen to me. Clicker training/shaping is the only way I’ve ever seen that could possibly do that, get that balance between independence and obedience.
I hope I’ve explained it well enough – though OneMuddyTB, you probably already know all this
it was more for the other people… and if any of you actually read this whole comment, I’m impressed!
“A basic understanding of animal behavior, operant conditioning, classical conditioning [...]”
Herein lies the problem. I have taught courses in psychology and have seen students struggle with classes solely dedicated to operant and classical conditioning. How do you expect the average horse owner to really understand and apply this with reading a book or watching YouTube videos?
The truth IS ugly, and not all people are meant to be trainers. It takes a certain amount of “feel” that I don’t see very often in the majority of horse/animal owners. Clicker training is a neat theoretical training concept, but I have done my own experiments with horses that I have used clicker training and horses that I have not, and I really haven’t noticed a difference (I am a psych nerd and wanted to see if there was any benefit). It is all about the timing of the reward or consequence; the form of delivery is really not that important. I find the best thing to do is to use what comes naturally to you as the person working with the animal.
That guy is full of awesome!!! He might be getting hate mail, but it won’t be from me!
That needs to go to every backyard Mini owner too. Just because they are little doesn’t mean you treat them like dogs. Our Vets LOVE us because most of our horses STAND, don’t flinch when vaccinated, and if you need to grab an ear to steady them go RIGHT AHEAD. DO NOT let THEM hurt YOU. Nothing like fighting a horse for a simple procedure to tick you off. Holding an ear when you sedate them for a float will NOT ruin them for life. Really, it won’t….
Applause here, no idea who the guy is, but the whole thing is so true. Treat the horse like a horse, not your long-lost BFF. He’ll like you better for it. People just don’t read the body language, or don’t see it. I was in Barbados years ago, mooning over some rent-a-ride horses “parked” at the beach. I went to dreamily stroke one sleeping chestnut’s neck. His ears and nose pinned back, did I care? No, it’s a horse, ooooh.. He bared his teeth, snaked his neck, and shoved me back with his bared teeth on my cheek. (My face cheek;). He didn’t hurt me. He taught me a lot though.
I agree with most of what he’s saying… except for the “horses don’t do the love, kindness, patience and trust thing.”
They do… but their understanding and interpretation differs from most humans’ understanding and interpretation.
Although, he was perhaps simplifying the concept due to the fact that the majority of people have become so far removed from the natural world that they don’t understand the fact that all the other animals, except dogs for for the most part, don’t necessarily speak the same “language.”
And this is often the crux of the problem and the main reason that humans get hurt. This is also why Sue is in the predicament that she’s in. She doesn’t get that she’s speaking one language and Champ is speaking another and I’m sure Champ’s attitude toward her began to sour the first time he tried to “tell her something” and she was completely farking oblivious… Epona knows that I start getting pissy whenever I have to repeat myself constantly because someone is too daft to get what I’m saying.
Not an excuse for his behavior, but she’s the one at fault here. She didn’t bother to learn the language and Champ did what even people would do (imagine if you moved to France and didn’t bother to even learn the rudiments of the language but still expected the locals to happily do shit for you) … he got annoyed, then frustrated, then realized.. “Hey, this dumb bitch either doesn’t know any better or she doesn’t care.. so I’m going to use this to my advantage.” And an asshole was born.
The majority of horses don’t want to be assholes. They just want to be secure, that’s it. Secure in the fact that they’re going to eat, that they’ll have clean water, that they’ll have company, and that they have a sensible, smart, boss that they can respect**** and that will be able to make the right decisions to keep them outta trouble and isn’t going to cause them misery, suffering, or pain.
**** If your horse doesn’t respect you (and this is respect NOT fear since so many jackasses seem to confuse the two) your horse will NOT work for you, because you haven’t proven that you’re worth working for. He will NOT “trust” you and he will walk all over you and treat you like a low-level, non-entity, bottom of the pecking order, whipping boy.
Mind you, this goes both ways as horses, much like cats, want some respect in return.
Horses are just like people. If you are loving and kind and a DOORMAT, prepare to be stepped on.
Who has not had to learn this lesson the hard way?
I used to joke about being such a sad doormat they could turn me over and use the other side!! Not Any More.
I recently worked with my friends mare who would be dangerous at a hand walk, she would try to take off just to graze, I had to carry a lunge whip the first few times, I kept it in my left hand pointed back (loose end coiled down the stick) and when she tried to pull I would say “walk on” and if she pulled more I would snap her without breaking stride. Took about 3 times for her to figure it out. This is an old schooly who knew my friend was a newbie. Would drag my friend and try to drag me. Haven’t worked with her for months. But when we went for a hand walk, Piglet tried only once to “YANK” and all I did was voice a reprimand. She gave me that expression “Just checking” and was a dream after that.
OT but I have been missing a cat for over a week and have just had a sighting, Pearly needs a prayer to help her home.
Oh, so true. I started out as a doormat too, because of my inexperience, and I had a green horse to boot. Thankfully I had an excellent trainer who was willing to train ME as well as the horse. She taught me the most valuable lesson of all: that I will get the behavior I expect out of my horse (provided I discipline anything that’s not what I expect, of course). Seems to me like Sue is expecting her horse to be an emotional wreck, so that’s what he’s acting like.
I don’t agree that animals don’t have emotions, though. That’s a leftover assumption from the behaviorists, who determined that making conclusions is not good science — you can only believe what you can observe, and emotions aren’t observable, therefore animals don’t have them. That line of reasoning would mean that people who can’t talk or speak another language than you also don’t have emotions, however, since they can’t tell you what they feel any more than animals can.
If animals having emotions sounds like poppycock to you, I might remind you that it used to be believed that animals COULD NOT feel pain. Since pain cannot be observed, only the behavior that it causes, scientists decided that animals were only behaving LIKE they were in pain because instinct and reflexes told them to do so. That line of reasoning was used for many decades to justify operating on animals without anesthesia.
My point here is simply that we cannot assume that animals are different than us just because they cannot communicate the same way we do. My horse whinnies like crazy to me the minute I get to the barn, hangs out at the gate until I get there, and repeats his call if I don’t come get him right away. Do I think that means he missed me? Sure I do! He may not be able to say the words “I missed you” but I think he’s expressing that emotion in his own way.
What I don’t understand is using emotions to justify what this woman described. We KNOW our children love us, but does that mean we let them do anything they want? No, of course not — at least not those of us who have any sense. So why would LOVE be used as justification for letting a 1000 pound animal do anything HE wants?
Brilliant response and eloquently put too.
I have an amazing relationship with all my horses but they know I’m their herd leader. Horses are opportunistic by nature (it’s a survival instinct) and if given an inch will definitely take the proverbial mile so clear boundaries and the desire to enforce those boundaries must exist or the relationship is doomed to fail with one side of the union (usually the human element [being the weakest], as half a tonne of instinct driven beast will easily crush a 60kg ‘annoyance if they want to) risking serious injury.
I hope for this lady’s sake, she welcomed his advice with open arms as he has gained an immediate and clear picture of where she is with her horse and why she’s where she is with her horse.
He doesn’t deserve hate mail, he deserves an award for common sense and having the balls to say what needs saying in this stupid politically correct world where no-one says what they should for fear of upsetting someone.
OH GAWD!!!
Three years ago, I got LAUNCHED by the cutest little QH gelding and landed on the back of my pelvis. I GOT HURT!! It was eight weeks before I could ride again. Then, last December, I failed to land the dismount out of the back of my truck while shoveling sand. I bounced off the side of the barn door and landed… yep!… on my pelvis. I crawled through the snow to the house, not because I wanted to, but because I knew I would freeze to death before my husband came looking for me.
So… I now have confidence issues. I am ok with my old steady eddy, but new horses or youngsters… oh my, mental meltdown.
Even on the ground I find myself not correcting or “getting after” a horse because “I don’t really KNOW the horse” or “he/she is just a baby”. I seriously need to STOP that and treat them all the same, regardless of whether I KNOW the horse or they’re a 16 hand three year old.
Thankfully, I have no PROBLEM horses, but if I don’t get my shit together and quit being a big baby, I COULD in the future.
Being one who loves working with horses ( and people ) like this, as I read her e-mail, my hands itched to get ahold of her horse’s lead rope and show it how horses behave in MY barn. I am not abusive in any way, but I demand respect. Then, I’d get to work on the owner. She needs a wake up call, before she “allows” herself to be killed. I run into people like her all the time. The most common thing I hear is a laundrey list of their horse’s problems, followed by them saying, ” But she’s sooooo pretty.” Horses tend to seek the level of their riders. Put a good rider on a poor horse and the horse’s training wil go up, but put a poor rider on a good horse, and the horse’s traing will go down.
I am the boss mare.
That sums up how I want my relationship to be with my horses. It’s also a nice line to repeat to yourself when one of them is testing that relationship, to keep you in the proper mind frame.
I feel I need to put in a good word for clicker training because it’s clear that neither Larry or the woman know much about it. Although I want to give her some slack, because she’s still fumbling about and discovering what works for her.
Does he know why this horse is acting up? If he doesn’t, then how does he know how to correct it? What if he is acting out of fear? What if the woman has some attribute, through no fault of her own, that is causing a fear reaction? If she disciplined him, and he was genuinely frightened, she’s made things worse. To quote somebody, a simple answer to a complex problem is usually wrong.
My rule is to use punishment if someone can get hurt. I don’t rule it out completely and yes, my guys know their boundaries very well. But CT can’t be beat for learning new behaviors and overcoming fear. Which reminds me-the frightened dog. Poor use of the technology again. If the dog is still afraid, they are taking things too fast and are in danger of souring the dog on rewards altogether. A cardinal rule in shaping is if the lesson isn’t working, go back a few steps. The strangers don’t need to give the dog treats, what’s important is that the party starts when strangers are around and the dog is *not reacting*. What you click is what you get. If you want a calm dog, click when dog relaxes,
even if its just a teeny bit. So yeah, maybe this horse needs a wake up call, but to say that a particular method doesn’t
work just because it’s used inappropriately makes as much sense as rejecting an F-16 because you tried it on a freeway.
Someone a few years ago on this blog told a story. I use it to illustrate just this point all the time. She had a broken arm and was feeding (I think) a yearling — who bit her on the arm. Instinctively she clocked him — with her cast. Knocked him down — but he never bit anyone again. Now, I wouldn’t voluntarily clock a horse in the face with a hard object — any more than she would have done it on purpose. But the horse wasn’t made head shy by it — he knew why he’d gotten hit. Horses do understand justice.
Discipline is the opposite of abuse. . Horses need boundaries — like a teenager they will test them. They are happiest when those boundaries are firm. Discipline happens when you aren’t mad. It happens when the horse does something wrong and immediately suffers unpleasant results that are direct result of his misbehavior — and that are not over the top. Discipline is just. A horse doesn’t hate or fear you when you discipline properly — any more than kids in a well run classroom fear their teacher. Consistent, clear rules make for happy horses.
My old riding teacher used to say — if a horse does something that is potentially harmful or dangerous (like biting or kicking) — you make them believe they are going to die. Right then. You don’t have to beat on them — Yell, wave your arms, make a lot of noise. Then stop and go back to your normal attitude (getting mad doesn’t do anything). When you ask a horse for something — to lift its leg to pick a hoof, for instance — you don’t stop until it has done what you want — even if it takes a while. Her horses all had terrific ground manners and were nice to ride, too.
You know, that is so true about horses knowing why they get hit. When I first started taking lessons, I was told never to hit a horse (that didn’t work very well with my OTTB who bit, reared, did all of the bad horsie + newbie owner things). I smack him all the time now if he’s out of line, and not very hard – more of a surprise thing than actually hurting him. Now, he knows that if I’m in the stall with him, he’s not allowed to crib – otherwise he gets a nasty look, then a growl, then a smack on the nose. He has to wait for me to give the signal before he’s allowed to eat his food. He know what is expected of him, and gets loved on all the time. Does he hate me for smacking him on the nose for cribbing? Nope. Also, I believe horses can truly care and love their people. My horse has saved me so many times. He once put himself between me and a herd of deer because he’s terrified of them and thought they would attack us.
I started out in the ‘won’t it be nice if everyone is nice’ camp as a kid, and got lucky – I DIDN’T get permanently injured before I learnt better. I’m not sure where and when (somewhere in my teens), but I figured out that horses, just like most other species, like rules and boundaries, and if you don’t create them, well, they will, just not the ones YOU want!
Many years down the track, I’ve worked on TB stud farms and done many seasons of yearling sales prep, so I know what a super-charged, semi lunatic half ton of horse can do. I know full well that if you don’t lay down the rules and expect horsie to live up to them, you’re gonna get nailed. I’m now a private rescuer, and have had a few faiurly hairy messes to ‘re-educate’, and am soooo glad I’ve picked up some good handling skills along the way. The main thing I try to teach anyone I come in contact with are to have a very clear aid for each thing you want to ask (stop, go, turn and yield); always, ALWAYS keep giving the aid until you get an appropriate response; and to STOP giving the aid the instant you get the right response.
And it’s not nag nag nag, pleeeeease horsie please please please do it, pretty please, oh go on, please…; it’s Ask, Tell, Make. If the horse doesn’t respond correctly within a few seconds, I’ll insist that he DO IT NOW or I’m gonna make it uncomfortable for him not to. Start by giving the aid at the level you expect to use when horsie is well trained, but rapidly build up the intensity until you’ve reached a level that horsie will actually respond to. You’ll only have to do it a few times and horsie will realise that he might as well do what is asked when you first give the aid, before it escalates.
One of the most memorable ‘re-educations was an old TB who was sweet as can be if everything was going his way and he knew what was going on, and a psychotic kicking, barging, stomping maniac otherwise who really didn’t want to be in charge but felt like he had to take over in the abscence of an obvious human leader. It only took two ten minute sessions of ‘When I say X, I MEAN X, EVERY TIME, and Yes, you WILL do it right NOW’ for him to realise that I had some very clear easy to follow rules, and if he followed them live would be cruizy, for him to transform into the sweet cuddly teddy bear I knew he wanted to be. from then on he was one of the easiest horses to handle I’ve had around, but mostly because I continued to be very clear in giving aids, and instantly correcting any minor discrepancies BEFORE they became issues.
I’ve also realised that this is why I have so few issues with ANY horse – I correct things before they become more than the tiniest hint of a problem. But I also LISTEN to the horse in return, and respect that he may have reasons for reacting to things in a certain way, and look for those potential reasons before I just assume that he’s being ‘bad’.
Claire, Kahurangi Equine Rescue
New Zealand
“I’ve also realised that this is why I have so few issues with ANY horse – I correct things before they become more than the tiniest hint of a problem.”
Same here. I haven’t had a lot of the accidents, incidents, etc. that I see other people having because I catch it early.
It’s good to learn to read horses!
It makes me soooo sad that people mistake Natural Horsemanship for being kindness+love etc. and generally will end up with horse leading the human. That is sooo wrong, and its not the carrot stick which is to blame. Its just the way (I guess) people filter what they read, but I’m not familiar with the marketing in USA. Over here, where I live, it (NH) means DISCIPLINE. I moved from a dressage barn to a natural horsemanship barn because it was better living conditions, and closer to home. Horses live outside 24/7, and are a happy, disciplined lot of NORMAL horses. The method is pretty simple – horses have to obey. And they do happily! Really! Since all boundaries are set, there is really only kindness (well, if your horse behaves, you don’t have to discipline it!), and you may even think your horse loves you, because they actually like to spend time with a human! and its not for treats only, while they are a nice thing in the end…
I’m not trying to advocate for Parelli, or so. I just want to tell, that Natural Horsemanship ISN’T always like that! It is a disaster if you let the horse win. And it is not the point of NH.
Whuch of these concepts is wrong?
- Phases. As you want your horse to obey with the lightest cue, you start out asking lightly, no response – more – no response – even more. as soon as horse does what you are asking – stop cueing.
- Personal Space. Set boundaries. When a horse is entering your personal space – he gets punished. with a tap of rope, stick, something. as soon as he is on the desired distance – good.
- The horse is responsible to keep the given gait. if you tell trot, it is trot until you say walk or canter. if it changes gait on its own, you momentarily ask to get back to it. Eventually your horse has to keep not only gait, but speed and rythm.
- Chewing. Let your horse chew and lick once its done its job. Give it a thinking time. Give it a rest after it has done well as a reward, if standing is what it likes. Next time you can ask more.
Cannot think of more at the moment.
p.s. I LOVE your blog. Thanks for it!
Dear Lord, it’s like that man is speaking directly to my soul! Count me in as one of the dumbasses who let my horse get dangerous, and had to have the same Come-to-Jesus moment that he did about our behavior.
My guy has never showed any signs of aggression (kicking, biting, rushing, striking, etc), so I thought I was doing a pretty good job making him respect me, and I’ve never bought into the touchy-feely crap about making him wuuuvvvv me. I love him but he loves eating and running around his pasture. When I got him I knew he had a history of pulling back, bolting, and being very spooky, but I had it all under control for about a year. Then we had a Traumatic Cross-tie Incident, where he saw me carrying his blanket over to him, thought it was a horse-eating monster and pulled back, coming really close to flipping over. After that I was terrified of putting him in cross-ties, and go figure, so was he. His set-backs are big and scary; basically him mentally checking out and flinging himself backwards in blind panic, oblivious to anyone around him. I tip-toed around him more and more, and he got worse and worse, up to point where he would threaten to set back as soon as I led him to the cross-ties. So I just started tacking him up in his stall.
At the same time his spooking got much worse. He would spook huge at dumb things he saw every day: poles in the corner of the arena, the sound of cars driving up, wet spots on the arena wall, pitch forks, and so much more. He was spooky on the ground, and would think nothing of running over me in his terror. Under saddle his spooks were huge. One time I was warming him up before a lesson when my trainer drove up. The sound of her car spooked him so bad that he dumped me. She walked in the arena and saw me on the ground crying, and him just standing there. That day I realized that I had created a monster, and I was so scared of him being scared that I couldn’t fix that monster myself. He was a nervous horse to begin with, and I did not give him the confident leader that he needed. Instead, I gave him my own nervousness to feed off of. So he went bye-bye for a month of full training (which included multiple lessons for me a week, and me watching most of his training sessions).
During training I realized that he had been only half-checked in at any time. The other half of his brain was on its own, trying to watch out for himself, and in the process finding a million things to be afraid of. The theme of his training was to get his focus 100% on his handler or rider (me), with things like making him move his feet, yield the hindquarters, sending him forward and backwards, walk politely a step behind and DO NOT gawk at anything around him. I also learned that I can NEVER allow any sort of misbehavior with him. I always have to keep him in line. That included spending an hour to tack him up in the cross-ties, because every time he would inch back or even slightly move a muscle like he would set back, I would have to send him right back forward. Every time he would look at something potentially spooky and tune me out I would have to say HEY LOOK AT ME! Move your feet and pay attention to the boss here. Any time he even remotely got in my space I would make him get out, even if it meant whapping him with the lead rope. These were little things that I had slacked on before, because he was always a “good horse,” until I made him into a dangerous horse.
Along the way, I discovered something fascinating. He was happiest when he had a big mean boss telling him what to do. A big mean boss that sometimes smacked him and made him move fast and yield his hindquarters quick. It took the worry off of his shoulders, so he could relax and be content. I see this in the pasture, where he’s turned out with a dominant mare. She moves him around and bosses him all over the place, and he is blissfully happy with her. During our training month, the moment after he would get corrected and my trainer or I went back to normal, he would relax, lick and chew, drop his head, and go back to being a happy little camper. I’ve realized that horses are relaxed and happy when YOU are the alpha horse. You have to take the burden of being in charge off of them, so they can feel safe and calm. My horse, for the longest time, felt like he had to look after himself because I wasn’t a leader. A nervous horse like him, trying to look out for himself is a recipe for spooking disaster. Sure I was nice, and spent lots of time riding and grooming him, and gave him lots of nice things, but what he really needed was a alpha mare to tell what to do, so he could be content and relax.
Wow, I really wrote a novel, but it feels good to get that off my chest! And the good thing is, all it took for us this time was one month of training (for him and me), and now we have the horse-human relationship worked out, and we’re both safe again. And BTW, my trainer is a dressage trainer, not a NH trainer, so if you are looking for someone to help with a problem horse, you don’t need to drink the Parelli Kool-aid or pay $500 for that dumbey-jar Ryan Gingrich’s videos (But, um, BTW, I watch his show on RFD ‘cuz he is hawt!). You just need to find a trainer that understands herd dynamics and how a horse’s mind works.
The guy is a bloody legend!!! As far as that letter goes anyway. Now I hate to hit a horse, especially my own who I know for certain has been abused. but I’ll be damned if I let a horse kick or bite me just cause I’m too afraid to dish out the sort of punishment they’d get from another horse who is their superior.
I used to lease a mare who had gotten away with alot of stuff, kicking and biting two of the things, plus general naughtiness when being ridden, especially napping. She bit me on the arm one day, I gave her a good smack. Never tried to bite again. She tried to kick one day, I gave her bum a boot. Never tried to kick again. She used to refuse to move forward when being ridden from leg pressure. Smack on the shoulder with the reins, and within a few rides she went off your leg nicely as you please. Might I add, on each occasion I hit her once, and only with enough force to get the message across. To this day (leased her two years ago, and still occasionally see her) she does not try a single thing with me. After I stopped leasing her, a few other people did, who were afraid to discipline her for naughtiness and pandered her. She kicked, bit and napped again. I jumped on at their request once, none of that for me! Just goes to show.
My mare is very well mannered. Any naughtiness, even running off usually just requires a growl (and its not needed very often!). But once she did try to bite. She has been abused in the past. That didn’t stop me giving her a smack. No more bite attempts. Same with a kick, she tried that once, after a smack its never happened again. She’s tried to crowd me with her bum too. Smack and a growl, no more problems!!!
Re that lady’s issue with a hose, hell, my girl HATES getting her face sprayed. Absolutely detests it. For ages I let her get away with it. Then a few months ago I decided enough was enough. Now I put her in the cross ties in the wash bay which have heavy duty rubber rings to allow some give when a horse pulls. She gets sprayed in the face. She pulls back initially, but she’s caught on very quickly that it aint gonna stop, so then she stands. No biggie.
It truly amazes me what some people let their horses get away with, because they don’t want to hit them! usually all it takes is one or two times and the horse won’t try it again. I’m certainly not advocating abusing, but one smack isn’t going to hurt! And I’m 16, and haven’t yet had a horse walk all over me, because I will tell them off!
I love, love, love Larry Trocha! I literally LOL’d when I read that and the other responses in his wesite. I do disagree with these people getting dogs though. This type of behavior creates bad dogs too.
Oh I couldn’t a agree more. In fact, I’m one of those people who created a dangerous dog because of this type of behavior. Because she was oh so cute when she was a puppy and I loved her I wouldn’t discipline her, I never really taught her how to be a dog, add the fact that she is an inbred cocker spaniel that has inherited the aggression gene and you got a recipe for disaster. I don’t let her walk all over me but she does misbehave whenever she has the chance an she i aggressive to any person she doesn’t know, even knowing she is going to be punished every single time. She’s 12 years old now so no amount of training will do any good at this point and it doesn’t help that my mom still let’s her get away with anything. *sigh*
Very agreed on the dogs. I’m guessing no one suggesting that or thinking dogs somehow are fine to spoil and not discipline has ever had one of them charge them with serious intent to bite, or out and out been bitten by one. The fact that a dog is smaller than a horse does not prevent him from killing you or hurting you or someone else very seriously.
… Maybe they should just get cats. Though sometimes I think one of my cats might be plotting something sinister…
I love the line “He will threaten to kick me if I don’t respect his fear.” Honey, horses are creatures of flight not fight — unless they are truly backed into an unescapable situation, the majority of horses, when scared, will run not kick — even if it means running flat over their handler, a fence, stall wall… If a horse does kick out of fear, it is usually an explosive, sudden, REaction not a calculated action. The horse that pins an ear, swooshes the tail, and cocks a hind leg is a mean threatening horse, not a scared horse.
So true that too many people anthropomorphize and while this can make our time with our pets truly special (“He really loves me, he nickers every time I come in the barn”), it can also become dangerous. It’s fun to THINK your horse loves you, but it’s important to also stay realistic. Your horse is nickering because he associates your arrival with good things — treats, turnout. If you stopped giving those good things, chances are your horse would stop nickering. And chances are very high that your horse also nickers at the nice lady who owns the horse three stalls down, but brings carrots for every horse in the barn.
Hi Fugs-
I just wanted to share this with you in case you hadn’t seen it. Courtney King-Dye recorded a speech about helmet safety.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awJDYBhBPzk
It’s moving, and touching, and more than anything drives home the idea that “safety has nothing to do with the level of rider skill.” Courtney’s traumatic brain injury happened in a freak accident. I thought you might like to spread the word…especially on such an awesome and safety-oriented post.
My husband is a farrier, and I occasionally go with him on appointments to help out. We’re also members of a horse club. If I had a nickel for every time I met “Sue”, my husband would be retired. I will say that most farriers and vets (that we know at least) live in fear of the phrase “Natural Horse Techniques”, as in “I use the Fill-in-the-blank-Big-Name Natural Horsemanship program.” Usually followed by the owner producing some variety of rope halter and oddly-colored stick. Now, don’t get me wrong – for someone who actually has a successful, healthy relationship with horses, those trainers can be a source of good tips, ideas, and new tools for the training toolbox. BUT for the frightened, nervous person who wants their horse to be their best friend and their soulmate, those Trainers are GODS who will show you the way to bridleless riding through a field of rainbows, glitter, and flowers. These trainers are also the source of much fear an loathing for the horse professionals who have to deal with the resulting wreck that the horses owned by these people become.
Sue is lost. Sue is looking for a MIRACLE that will show her the way to a spiritual and emotional communion with her horse. And, low and behold, there comes BIG NAME TRAINER who, although they probably are a horse trainer of some reasonable variety (or were at one point), is now a Motivational Speaker. Sue sees the light, buys ALL the paraphernalia, and immediately begins trotting her horse in circles and showing him the Plastic Bag Ona Stick(tm). Immediate result #1 – horse begins fearing plastic bags and is now backing up in response to any stimuli. Awesome.
Unfortunately, somewhere in the middle of this world of Glittery Awesomeness, the horse cuts it’s legs or needs its feet trimmed. Thats where the vet or farrier gets involved. Imagine having to deal with an unruly, spoiled horse, while its ineffectual owner stands on the end of the lead rope chatting about how much “progress” they’ve made as a “team” since they started using the BIG NAME PROGRAM. “Oh no, you can’t yank on him like that, you must wiggle the rope like this.” “Oh, no, he’ll stand better if you just stand right here and wave your hands like this….” All the while, the reality of the situation is that the horse is all over the place, won’t stand still because he doesn’t think he has to, and every time you try to discipline the animal, the owner gets in the way and is constantly telling you the “trick” to making the animal behave. Fortunately, for my husband, he only has to grit his teeth and get through the session, hoping he doesn’t get hurt. Then, next time the person calls, he can say he’s booked for the next millenium and can’t come out. For the Vet, who has sworn an oath to be there, there is no full schedule book.
These people (and the horse rescues) are the ones that have to deal with the mess that Sue will leave behind her. So I’m really glad to see someone finally step up to the plate and tell the truth: Sue needs to get a backbone and get after her horse!
I always say this: We humans, especially us women, really do want to have a magical relationship with our horses. I want my horse to be my best friend, my soulmate, and my buddy. But that is what he is to ME. To him, I am the bitchy herd mare that he knows that he needs to respect and listen to and behave for, otherwise, she’ll kick his butt.
But, because I am willing to step up and be the leader and the bitchy herd mare, I have the kind of relationship with my horse that Sue wants to have. I can cut my gelding loose in the arena and, after he’s done playing, he’ll come up to me and pay his respects, like he would for his herd mare. And, although intellectually, I know that’s what he’s doing, I get to allow myself the feeling that he’s happy to see me and is nuzzling my face because he loves me.
I don’t mean to rant, it’s just an ongoing frustration that can be avoided so easily by simply stepping up and being a leader to your horse. The same people that insist on keeping their kids in line and make them behave will let their horses run roughshod over them.
So, yeah, way to go Larry! It’s about time that someone with the power to get people to pay attention actually said something realistic.
I don’t know why everyone complains about and hates those colored sticks.
I used one just the other day to load an ornery horse in the trailer– two hard whacks with that little carrot stick and he loaded right up with no more kicking, arguments, or general fussiness.
It was a useful little stick.
My friend keeps one for the EXACT same reason!
Agreed – we have a cheapo knockoff “carrot stick” that is just about the best thing EVER for times when a longe whip is to big, and a dressage whip too puny!
http://www.felixfjord.blogspot.com
I truly think the carrot stick is useful, just not for the ridiculous price it is. Its like a tiny cross between an extension of your hand for more obvious cuing(cueing?) and a tiny lunge whip when needed
… but not for “games” or whatever that crap is.
I don’t care for most of his training recommendations, i.e. gimmick crap, but his letter is right. I think this goes beyond horses too, I see so many people treating their dogs like kids, NOT like DOGS. And don’t even get me started on the creepy folks that think the monkeys are actual children. All of those stem from wanting some ‘magical’ relationship that somehow ignores every aspect of actual animal behavior. On my worst days I blame it on lazy asses who stupidity, irresponsibility, and unwillingness to learn ends up making the animals pay- whether this is a horse out of control, a dog that bites someone, or a iguanas who’s bad diet results in skeletal deformities. I have sympathy to some extent for folks that are trying, but when the critters are suffering for it and they persist in their ignorance I just really, really want to b(&*@#$ them.
OMG, what a great response! I agree with every word 100% and couldn’t have said it better. To those who think that horses are little china dolls and that the response was mean, sit by your best friend’s hospital bed for 6 weeks wondering if her shattered jaw and bleeding on the brain from a stroke took away all her identity. Watch her struggle to come back and overcome the brain damage. Then watch how a herd of 2 or more horses establishes a pecking order at feeding time. Take a hard look at their communication – there is nothing discreet or loving about it. It’s black and white alpha / beta and clear as a bell language. It has NOT PITY.
A perfect bulls eye when he said something to the effect that people who pity their horses have insecurities that cause their actions. Herd animals want a leader – period. It’s lead or follow for the owners – there is no in between. I lead. I’m a disciplinarian, more than most, and expect respectful behavior at all times. I correct a misguided fly kick if it invades my space but you know what? They get it! My horses also “love” people, can be pet all over with a lunge whip, don’t run away when I walk up to them with a bridle, stand tied without pawing and always respect my space. The respect makes them want to please me and in return I always reward every little try they give me. Being fair and consistent creates trust, both ways. It feels a lot like love and not once have they opted for psychiatric care due to emotional abuse!
OMG! I think I’m going to get a wide-on for this guy. Out his mouth to god’s ears. I have made this speech so many times to my friends who have horses. I had one person say to me after I said something to the effect that you horse should do what you want it to when you ask it to do it, and she said, “Oh, I see, it’s all about you. What about the horse? Don’t you want a relationship with your horse?”
Uh, yeah it’s all about me. I chose to buy a horse so that I could ride said horse. I have a contract with that horse, in exchange for food, water, farriery, and health care, I GET TO RIDE (obviously, there are limitations and restrictions to this contract). So yeah, it’s mostly about me. I know that most horses would rather just be horses with their horsie friends.
And yes, I’d like a loving caring two way relationship with my horses (but then I’d like that with a man too, talk about “all about you mentality ). Although I think close equid/hominid relationships develop, they are rare as hens teeth.
So because of that I say:
Amen brother!
As long as I am paying the bills IT IS all about me. When they buy their own hay, we will talk.
I always see it as being a good employer. You have to do as I wish, and in return I try to provide excellent working conditions, health, dental, farrier, etc.
I believe that just about every animal in the world is happier with a job – my pony, much, much better now that he’s got a job. Honestly, I pay WAY too much for board to keep a horse that does not want to work for his keep. Only problem with Felix he prefered his old “job” which was to be a professional penis (ungelded 4 year old – already has 2 babies on the ground). He was MAD the day he realised his days as a jigalo were over, but now he’s a much happier boy.
Even my dog has a job. His job is to be a bedwarmer, and chase whatever geese or other critters my parents don’t want pooping on their lawn. He caught 2 baby Canada Geese this year, and is still very proud of himself! He’s not a big dog mind you, he’s just a 20lb Boston Terrier
http://www.felixfjord.blogspot.com
One of my horse pals and I were talking about how much money, time, hot days, frigid days, slinging blankets, scubbing tubs…all this for a horse. She said, “All I know, is after everything I do, you better make me god damn euphoric when I climb up on your back.”
It still makes me laugh but also, if I’m doing my part you darn better do yours, too, Champ.
Thass right! It’s “Be responsible! Just in case you forgot, Buckeroo!”
You know, what cracks me up is when people bug us about having a relationship with our horses. We DO have a relationship. The very definition of relationship is simply interaction between sentient beings. I think we ALL agree horses are sentient beings– they aren’t rocks or sand, and they think at least as much as our average neighbor. My one horse is actually much smarter than the average high school student, and I should know. So a relationship exists.
So why do people seek to ‘build a relationship’ through games and special tricks? I mean, I get that I have some friends who I have a relationship with because we get together for euchre once a week. But is my relationship with those friends better or more fulfilling than my relationship with the woman who teaches in the classroom next to me? We share plans, we eat together sometimes, we work our butts off together. If it comes to that, is my relationship with either the party friends or the fellow worker better than my relationship with my students, who I regularly harangue, threaten, cajole, and praise to get them through my class?
Relationships are built through many different avenues, and I can honestly say that I don’t want a horse I can go party with on the weekends and drink a beer with once in a while. I want a horse I can work side by side with, who I can learn from, and who learns from me. We don’t need ‘games’ to bring us into a relationship with our horses, unless THAT is the sort of relationship we want– and frankly, horses are LOUSY euchre partners.
As I once explained gently to my friend who reported to me that a prospective owner and trainer had given up on a horse that I had trained, because he just wouldn’t play the seven games, “You know, he’s really not a playful kinda guy. He’s not into games. Have they tried just saddling him up and riding? He LIKES to work.”
I always imagine that if someone tried to Parelli my VLC, it would end with him having the stick in his mouth, chasing them around the round pen.
He’d be like, ok, this is an AWESOME GAME!
I have a friend who had a T – shirt that said:
“Because I’m the alpha bitch, that’s why”
I worked at a big-name (owned/run by Olympic medalists) show barn, where nearly every horse was spoiled, rotten jerks owned by spoiled, rotten jerks. There was this one in particular who was *nasty* – bitey, kickey, and generally just hard to deal with – and even a growl at him while tacking him up would get me in hot water with the owner. One day as I was tacking him up alone, I was in just as foul a mood as the horse, had just had to deal with his owner and was *pissed*… and he picked that moment to bite my shoulder, hard.
Without even thinking, I spun around and *bit him back*, landing my teeth just above the throat latch. The look on his face was precious. Say horses don’t have emotion all you want – that look was plainly ‘surprise, shock, anger, fear… respect’. From that point forward he was my favorite horse to work with. Not that he feared me – he would be completely relaxed and amicable while messing with him, while before he’d be tense and snappy – it seemed to be genuine respect. All it took was once.
Unfortunately, trying to same thing with the owner (figuratively rather than literally of course) got me fired instead of respect… but that was probably for the best XD
Yes. That situation was heading you straight into the E.R. I would not work for someone who would not let me so much as growl at a horse.
I will admit that I am an indulgent horse owner. My horse was spoiled, but never allowed to get away with bad behavior.
I got him with problems. Part of why I bought him was to get him away from his the woman selling him. When I got him he would try to kick, bite, walk over/through you, pull off the fence (he’d never been cross tied), rear when being bridled, shake the saddle off, etc. You get the point. And they tried to use him in lessons…
Oh yeah, he’s an Appy! Fun right?? He tried to kick me once, I attacked him with the butt of a hoof pick (I use “attack” lightly, I hit him on the ass twice and yelled), same with biting. As soon as he realized I wouldn’t be pushed around, he stopped pushing. Granted, he had some real issues and for those I enlisted the help of my trainer, but he was kind of an ass with an appy-tude and he had a fantastic sucker radar.
Guess what? With proper handling and training, he is now a kids horse! An older kid who is an advanced beginner and rides with a trainer, but still he has come so far from the horse everyone was afraid of! (Sorry, had to brag!!
)
Appy-tude. Appy-tude. I think I have a new favorite word. I have an Arab with an Appy-tude. We’ve decided it’s because he’s a flea-bitten gray and so has spots.
I may do Arabs, but the single best-at-everything horse I ever rode was an Appy. She did won at jumping, reining, gaming, and western pleasure classes. Hauled kids around cheerfully. Won first at regional trail class two years running. She even won her driving class — while pulling a cart for the very first time!
But the lovely Mon Ame aside, I have met a lot of Appies with Appy-tude.
ISTM (non-horse-owner speaking here, grain of salt) that an awful lot of people have “horse = dog” very deeply engrained in their psyches.
Dogs do build their social bonds using cues that look an awful lot like human displays of affection. Dogs that get all up in your business and constantly demand that you pay attention to them and give them treats are generally being submissive. They are begging like puppies. Responding to their cues (within reason!) makes them more submissive, attentive, and affectionate.
Now, people who have had dogs generally understand that getting above the dog is the way to display dominance. I don’t mean constantly throwing the dog on his back, but just being physically taller than the dog. Displays of physical confidence, such as directing the dog with the lead or picking up and moving the dog, also establish dominance. So does controlling access to treats. When you’re the dog’s boss, you further reinforce the dog’s status by teaching it to obey instructions. Come. Sit. Stay. But being boss comes first. I suspect that quite a few horse owners who assume that horses are like dogs run up against the basic problem that they can’t ever be taller than the horse and just stop there, vaguely hoping that things will work out somehow. A decent dog owner also knows that you can’t yank, hit, or kick your dog because its limited thought process will be swamped by fear and you won’t be able to work with it, plus it may start submissively piddling or fear-biting. If horse = dog, well, then . . .
Then there’s the issue of recognizing when the horse is making a threat. If one assumes that horses are like dogs and doesn’t think about it further–well, if there is no growling, no bristling, and no sticking the tail up, then the horse isn’t acting bad. Right? Right. He’s just, you know, sometimes he cocks his hoof at me, but it’s nothing, really.
The Natural Horsemanship I learned is how to “speak horse”. If he gets into my space I get after him like the world is going to end, because horses don’t get into each other’s space.
If he moves when I didn’t give him permission to move I get after him like the world is going to end. I’m the boss, I make the rules and he doesn’t move a foot unless I tell him to.
If I ask him to move he has to get his front feet out of China and move ALL FOUR feet, not plant his front end and only move the rear. When I say move it means ALL of you. He doesn’t need to be braced, he braces to avoid what I might ask him to do. He is not allowed to avoid what I am asking him to do.
There’s lots of backing up. If he goes a fraction of an inch ahead of where I want him to be when I’m leading him I get after him like the world is going to end and he’s going to go in reverse until he realizes that a feather light touch on the halter means “slow down”.
In the NH training I did there were no carrots, no treats, no love. I learned how to interpret his body language so I could learn how to be the boss mare in all situations. If my horse (who is three) kicks out at me when I turn him out, etc, I put him on a lunge line and work him until he’s tired. I don’t know why it seems to reduce the attitude, but it does.
The NH I learned was like the queen in Alice in Wonderland: ALL ways are MY way!
I did not think his reply was harsh. Is she going to hate him? Probably. Because she didn’t want to hear that she has to *gasp* discipline her horse she wanted to hear that her poor schnookums was so traumatized by his former life that she was doing everything she can. I know that because it’s what I did with my horse. I did the NH with him but I was aghast because it was so in his face, no nonsense, no bullshit. He went into the NH training because he turned around and kicked close enough to me that when I took a step backwards I could feel the breeze from his foot past my hand. had I not taken the step back I probably would have had a painful set of broken bones.
I don’t remember what happened but something happened one day and I snapped, and I went from his kind, gentle, understanding and enabling owner to a drill sargeant that wasn’t going to take ANY shit.
Ironically he was a LOT happier when I was the boss telling him what to do.
EXACTLY RIGHT
I got this new show horse my 3rd year of college, fancy small warmblood for jumpers. Well schooled in everything. But as soon as we got him to the barn he decided to test us out by refusing to go into the cross ties and refusing to walk to the mounting block. It was all total BS because this was a trained show horse who damn well knew how to walk in to cross ties and walk up to and stand at a mounting block. So I went up one empty night, handed my horse knowledged boyfriend at the time a dressage whip and said that’s enough of this nonsense. I think he got a light tap on the rump maybe 2 or 3 times total with the whip to walk up. We spent an hour walking in and out of the cross ties from his stall, from the other barn aisle, into the indoor to the mounting block, standing while I pretended to get on, back around the ring to the mounting block again and back down the barn aisle to the cross ties. By the end of the night when we were walking back to the cross ties from the mounting block in the indoor, we passed his stall on the way and he started to balk, but I had told my bf to stay back at the arena with the whip. So I had my bf start to come forwards, he took two steps out of the arena gate into the barn aisle and my horse marched very politely straight into the cross ties. I never had a problem with him again after that.
Although the groom did. I think the night we did that this horse decided I was his person and when I went on vacation for a week like a month later, when I came back my trainer told me to go talk to the groom because my horse had been driving him nuts all week, couldn’t get him into the cross ties without force. So I went and got a lead rope, took him out of his stall, and walked him right into the cross ties turned him around and clipped him. The groom stood there incredulously and the trainer looked at him and laughed and went “oh he just doesn’t like you”. It was pretty amusing. The groom and the horse later worked it out, but the horse always preferred me. Probably had something to do with putting my foot down from the very beginning…
I was Sue and a granny gymp with my mustang from 2000 when I bought her till Spring of 2008 when after 3 operations I was finally healthy and strong- then we had a couple “ajustment” years but now we are in a good space. Of course when I was at my most disabled I decided she needed a baby because I was not able to ride anymore. I now have a 5 year old half Arabian mare but didn’t want to repeat the sins of my past so my youngster was started by an awesome sensitive trainer who expects a horse to be a horse. After 60 days I put her on half training with lessons. Last week during a lesson on the filly she made an ugly mare face at another horse working the wall while we waited our turn in a tiny indoor arena- Andy said “get after her” so I timidly growled and she put on her pretty ears- then while Andy worked with another student on loping rollbacks just a couple feet from Bonnie’s nose my calm filly would start one ear back,grrrrr put it forward, start to slowly lay back the other ear, grrrrr- shoot it forward and for several minutes I was playing with her and she was playing with me as two other horses were really moving out and spinning close enough to us to throw dirt on us. Bonnie’s feet never moved and she was totally relaxed. In April she had jumped x 3 and I curled up in a ball and got tossed hard. It was so much fun to not worry about “what is going to happen” and know that my horse was tuned into me not the other horses or whatever she wanted to do at the moment.
I’m a clicker trainer, not because I don’t know about how to dominate a horse — my Dad taught me that as his Dad taught him. I’m a clicker trainer because I know I am already the “leader” of my 5 Arabs. I have all the power: the power of food, water, turn-out, life and death. I never worry about whether I’m the one in control and usually I am only ever challenged once, usually in their two year old year. Then it is over and we can get back to reward-based, happy civility.
What’s the big deal??? If I want to change their behavior, I teach them the new behavior. If they don’t learn it or don’t want to do it, rewards stop. They get the real quick.
Domestic horses’ lives are pretty dull. Most horses look forward to something interesting to do. Sure they love to eat, but a smart horse really likes to problem solve, too. Set a horse up to succeed and see what you get. It’s amazing. Just show them how to succeed and they will.
Cuz you has Arabs. Arabs, they is teh SMART.
Seriously, Arabs bred as using horses generally operate on a higher plane than – say – Quarter Horses. I’ve met some pretty smart Morgans, too. And of course some pretty smart QH’s, but Arabs tend toward a higher IQ I think. Maybe because they’re much more sensitive and observant, I dunno.
I don’t really get the whole `clicker’ or parelli thing at all. Horses generally aren’t all that impressed by gimicks and toys. What they do respond to is consistency. I’ve never in my life felt the need to hit a horse in the face and not a single horse of mine has ever been a biter. I totally agree with Larry Trocha that most ill mannered or just plain ignorant horses are created by mishandling. It always annoys me to no end to see somebody that has no clue what they’re doing put the blame on the horse. When my horses do something undesirable, the first question I ask myself is what I communicated to get that reaction or what this horse is trying to tell me by reacting a certain way. Just like I have never had to `teach’ a horse to lunge in a round pen. If you understand body language etc. you can move pretty much any horse around a roundpen in the direction and pace you want. Its not magic and its not tough. Sadly, I’ve seen far too many people that lack the simple humility to realize they are the root of their horse’s issues whether that be because they have more horse than they can handle or they have spoiled it rotten.
Trocha’s article was hilarious until you realize it happens every single day and most of those horses end up on a one way double decker truck ride labelled as `outlaws’. I don’t agree that horses don’t have certain emotions, I think they do to a certain degree.
I completely agree.
My previous gelding (who we sadly lost in 2008) was bought as a headstrong, arsey gelding who was built like a tank and knew it. Whoever had previously had him (we got him from a dealer) had let him away with murder. This boy would run you down, he would kick, bite – basically every fault, this boy had it.
We worked on his kicking first – since he would kick at anything that walked behind him. So I got a long whip and poked him on the rump, outside of his kicking range while he was tied. Each time he’d snap out a kick, and I’d hit him with the whip. We done this for over an hour. By the time we finished, he’d stopped reacting to movement behind him – and he never in his entire life kicked out again like that.
Same boy was also prone using his head to nearly break my neck, he got decked good and hard. Again, this stopped, barring gentle shoves with his head for attention. He no longer used it as a weapon.
Bit by bit, all his vices were dealt with and he was the biggest, gentlest puppy dog of a horse you could get. No NH bullshit, just plain respect and normal affection (fuelled by treats!). He was completely trustworthy, easy to handle, willing and kind. But had he ended up with the wrong owner, he’d have been a dangerous beast.
My favourite memory of this boy was after his first year and a half with us, we could discipline him solely from voice. He hated being shouted at, it upset him more than striking him to discipline. He would literally squeal if he got into bad trouble and was shouted at harshly, I’ve never seen anything like it. But it was wonderful as well, this ton and a half of draft horse reacting solely from my voice, which is what you went – because you cannot even think of fighting something that size.
Heh. The world needs more people like this.
If anyone is interested in a good dog blog, including training tips, monthly giveaways, recipes, FHOTD style snark, and other canine related things, check out my new blog at
intertwinedk9.blogspot.com
People like Fugs have really inspired me.
It really comes down to the herd dynamic. You have to become alpha to gain the respect of horses. Just like dogs, a horse will not respect a person who appears weak. This doesn’t mean you have to beat the animal to become dominant. Animals practice ‘the first to move loses’ theory. If you can make their feet move, you win! Problem horses usually start with an owner who tried to humanize them, believing that they feel what he/she feels. This is far from the truth! I have 5 very different horses and all respect me as alpha. I love scratching my horses when theya re itchy, but when I don’t have time because I am late for work, I will use pressure to move them away from me until they go. They are not hurt or upset because I’ve done this, they just move on.
I am also a barefoot trimmer and find myself disciplining horses that are used to getting their own way with the owners. Some owners say ‘Wow! Why doesn’t he act that way with me?’ It’s because you let him run all over you! Lastly, there is a difference between a horse that reacts to something out of defiance and out of pain or fear.
Yeah, they probably would have been better off whacking that whale with a lounge whip or putting a halter with a shank on it and jerking the s**t out of him. Those are far more effective methods of training an animal like a killer whale, right?
QUOTE “If clicker training were the way to create a disrespectful, pushy animal, why would Sea World and zoos use it to train large, predatory mammals where one slip-up can mean the trainer is not just attacked but mauled in front of a crowd of visitors?”
I’m guessing Tillikum’s clicker was broke then…
One of the selling points of my current mare was her sweet disposition and impeccable ground manners. At 43 I don’t have the patience or emergency disability slush fund to deal with a dangerous horse. However, despite my utter love for my mare, I would think twice about laying into her if she attempted to bite, kick or me run over. I was fortunate enough to learn horsemanship from a cowboy (actually he was a Native American) who took absolutely no crap from horses. When I showed up at his barn, I was one of those horse crazy girls filled with fantasies “I am going to skip through rainbow filled meadows with my pretty pony and we are going to love each other forever”
I was horrified to see a rank horse get kicked or smacked for what I now know was dangerous behavior. It wasn’t until a horse in the cross ties kicked me in the thigh (yep I still have the dent) that I realized holy shit this is a really large strong animal that could kill me. Fantasy over.
There is a difference between abusive training and establishing respect. Same old cowboy who wouldn’t think twice about punching a biter in the face taught us kids how to ride without rieins or stirrups. His idea of natural horsemanship was to teach us safety, balance, a good seat and quiet hands.
- wouldn’t think twice –
one of these days I will preview my comment before hitting submit
Why “RULES, BOUNDARIES, AFFECTION, and when necessary … DISCIPLINE.”?
Discipline seems to have become a bad word, a last ditch effort when all else fails.
In consulting Merriam-Webster, I find that the first definition given for discipline is “punishment”. This surprises me. In the five usage examples given by MW, punishment would fit as a substitute in only one. I think I will consult my parent’s 60+ year old dictionary and see what it says. Maybe the meaning of discipline has changed in my lifetime (which is less than 60 years. That dictionary goes back to one of my parent’s collage days).
I think of discipline in terms of definition 6 – “a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity”. Discipline is what makes the rules and boundaries a cohesive and comprehensible whole.
Definition 5a is “orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior”. This type of discipline, for the trainer as well as the horse, should underlie all training efforts.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discipline
I was amused by the comment of Tom Bolye. He says, “The biggest problem I see with people is they cant ride … and they rush to become a certified trainer from somebodies money machine marketing program.” Um, didn’t he notice that Mr. Trocha is selling a bunch of training stuff? I think he is quite right. I’m just amused by the place he chose to say so.
I visited my parents on Sunday and consulted their 1946 Winston Dictionary. The first definition of discipline is “strict and regular moral or mental training”. Number three was “obedience, submission to control”. If you remove the “moral or mental” part, I think these apply very well to horse training. Punishment didn’t come into it until definition four, “corrective measures, punishment”. It appears that the meaning of discipline has changed over time.
I want to marry that man right now. Thanks Larry for laying it out straight. Now if people will just read it and follow through.
I have one caveat–people do have the same issues with dogs. Why else do you see Cesar Milan going out to help people who are terrified of their tiny chihuahua? I’m always shouting at the tv, “It weighs two pounds–why are you afraid of it?!!”
I know a chick whose new boyfriend’s dog kept attacking her, and her solution was to give him lots of treats so he’d love her. Guess what? It didn’t work!
I’ve said to people so many times that horses LIKE to be dominated. They feel safe and secure with a strong leader. They are insecure when they aren’t sure of their place in the pecking order. You are both in danger if you, the human, aren’t clearly in charge in both your minds. You don’t have to be a bully. Be assertive. Heck, dogs too, they like a good strong leader. They want to please the pack and their leader.
If I sound angry, it’s cause I’ve been trying to pound these concepts into a couple people for a year now. They’re like, “Oh, I can’t lead my horse at all anymore, but I can’t possibly tap him with the end of this soft cotton lead rope to make him move, cause I refuse to be abusive like youuuuu.”
He’s a 1400lb Draft X for crissakes, that won’t hurt him! So they go into the pasture and give him treats till “he’s ready to come out again”. *eyeroll*
Reading the responses (apparently getting food poisoning/severely upset stomach at 4am the day of your wedding gives you a lot of reading time) and couldn’t help but think of the worst behaved pony I’ve ever ridden- and he’s probably my favorite horse I’ve ever ridden too.
He was adorable, and he knew it. The little kids usually rode him (I was just at the edge of his range at 5’0″ and rode him when I was 13 to 16 or so) and so they or their less than savvy moms tacked him up. The habits he had: biting butts when hooves are picked (smack from me in the nose), running away when being caught (once nailed me in the hip and laid me out for two days, afterwards resorted to trickery), running your leg into the arena wall (he did this the week I got off crutches, earned him a smack and a boot in the ribs), walking/trotting off when mounting (boot in the ribs and forced to stand at the block for a while after I mounted) and running out at fences (that I was terrible at and eventually landed me in the ER, I have a permanent scar on my face that still cracks occasionally 7 years later).
After seeing that pony get such bad habits, I was terrified of working with a lady’s horses. She SANG to them to get to behave, and of course had the orange stick (like a PP said, they’re great for loading when you don’t use them for their intended purpose). She was shocked when her children’s pony behaved so much better for me. My solution? Growling at her when she misbehaved and if need be, using a crop firmly behind the knee. Gee, who would have guessed?
Oh this resonates with me! Back in my teaching days, I would often be asked to ride chlidrens ponies, as I am small enough to do it. The ponies would always have some problem or other – shying, being stubborn, won’t go, won’t canter, pulls reins out of kids hand….you name it. It was always the same story.
I ride the pony to assess the problem. Pony is a perfect angel and does not put a foot wrong. Child rides pony. Pony misbehaves. I tell child to use their crop on pony……reply: “Oh but I might hurt him and he won’t like me anymore” or something of that nature. I roll eyes and continue to tell child that they must hit their pony to get him to do what they want. Child finally hits pony with crop, half heartedly. Pony continues to misbehave. I show child how hard I want them to hit – child eventually does. Pony gets a shock, then behaves! Voila! Child smiles.
Next problem is telling the parents……who are usually non-riders and wouldn’t know the first thing about horses. Most of them still blame the pony – I got plenty of $$$ out of it of course, but I always insisted the child accompany me when I rode the pony and they rode afterwards. I then decided to create my “before learning to ride” lessons, where anyone wanting lessons had to do a few weeks of theoretical stuff on how horses think, basic care and handling, biomechanics, and then they did some ground handling skills with my ancient plodder, before they got anywhere near one of my horses backs.
I have a mare here who is lovely and quiet most of the time, but will have moments where she challenges me. I always make sure I win, and then that task is done, we only have the same argument once. If I backed off at any time, she’d walk all over me.
Well done Larry for telling this like it is. I wish more people would do it. I’m now a nurse and I’ve seen far too many people injured unnecessarily. My biggest point is that PRAMS AND HORSES DO NOT MIX. Seen too many young kids injured and killed.
I agreed with most of his reply. Two issues tho: Clicker training can be useful when used correctly. And I do not see it used incorrectly nearly as often as NH stuff.
But where he really lost me was when he told her the answer to her problem was to buy HIS stuff! WTF! She needs a good trainer with her IRL to help read the horse and demonstrate and teach her and the horse together. I would have more respect for him if he told her this, or at least, “find at trainer who follows a program like mine that you can read about on the stuff I want you to buy!”
All this hating on clicker training, when actually it can be a VERY effective training method. I’ve seen clicker-trained animals do amazing things – dogs, horses, dolphins, cats.
I think the reason clicker training gets such a bad rap is that so many people don’t understand how it really works, and aren’t good at the absolute rock-solid consistency it requires (like me, which is why I don’t use it). You don’t just “try” it for a couple of sessions, you USE it as your lifelong methodology.
y’all are so right: this “Sue” woman seems like a textbook case of …. Clueless. Almost like a composite of Middle Aged Lady Gets Horse After Horseless Lifetime. And yet, we can’t turn these people off of horses, because let’s face it, they’re a huge segment of the $$$$-spending horse enthusiast population. Better to help them toughen up – in both their horse-human interactions, and instructor-human interactions. Lots of us started riding as teenagers, when we are most able to be objective when critiqued by authority figures in charge of something we love to do. If you’ve never taken lots of lessons under very EMPHATIC instructors, or played any sport under an exacting coach for that matter, it’s gonna be real tough when you’re 43 and being ordered around by your trainer (as you MUST be to some extent.)
If you’ve gone through life somehow without a lot of objective outside evaluation, it’s gonna be tough…. but so worth it.
Wow this was a disjointed post…. oh well… I was out riding at 7:30 this morning to beat the heat, and just now starting to relax…
I’ve been a fan of Larry Trocha for as long as I was a trainer. Do I use everything? No, but he has given me some great input over the years.
This is a first time post, so I’m hoping I don’t get slaughtered
I’m a big Fugly fan! Sometimes people get the wrong idea about natural horsemanship, though. It is not all about fake sunshine and rainbows and getting yourself run over, bitten, kicked, or otherwise placed in a dangerous situation. I’m a fan of it, if you find the right “mentor.” (This being key and understanding that you cannot sweet-talk your horse into being good.) I’m a big Buck Brannaman fan. He’s a very respected, very humble trainer (there are no “see the horse magically do this” situations at his clinics) and I’ve seen him in clinics. He is the first to call someone out for babying their horse into bad behavior. It really makes him angry, because it does so many bad things to the horse. He is about hard work and discipline, and also using NH to train without frightening. And his stuff really does work, quietly and gently with little fanfare. (First time observers though sometimes think he uses too much force (and this is not the psycho Parelli lady too much force) – it is rather “just enough”) I’m hoping for a few people to be open minded enough to understand that NH is actually learning the fine line of “just enough force” to ACCOMPLISH the goal. I love NH and am the first person to give a horse a good hard whack if he EVER THINKS about kicking out at me. No offense to him, but I don’t care WHAT HE LIKES, when he isn’t doing what he should. Just felt it was time to put that in. Oh, and check out the doc on Buck, it’s really good, our whole barn went to see it. It’s nice to get horse-y stuff in entertainment 
I’m so totally jealous, I haven’t been able to make the trip to a movie theater with his documentary, so I’ve resigned myself to ordering it online and having it delivered as soon as it comes out. I also am a huge Buck fan, and while he isn’t all feathers and fairy dust, he takes training seriously and he isn’t afraid to concisely and clearly explain exactly what he wants from the horse and exactly why he knows that he HAS what he wants. It’s very enlightening, and I agree with you that it would be so much better if the term Natural Horsemanship were more closely connected to Ray Hunt than to .. those ‘other’ guys.
Cracked a horse across the face with a two by four once. He was a 2 or 3 year old orphan, bottle raised. He came to us for training. He was in the loafing shed, and I opened the door to go in there. People door, leading out onto the driveway, and road.
He decided that he was coming out. Not mean…just had no idea about what a hand resting on the face meant. Wasn’t going to stop. Coming out would mean he would be loose near a road. Fortunately there was two by four board leaning up against the wall by the door.
I grabbed it, and cracked him across the muzzle. He was shocked, and ran backwards, back into the barn. Things went good from then on, in his training.
Beats the hell out of him being hit by a car, right? I don’t have a problem with that. It’s like slapping a child’s hand as it nears the stove.
Will you be doing an update on PEC? I recall a suggestion of more to come…
Agree with all that he said. In the words of Aretha Franklin, it’s all about RESPECT.
However, I totally disagree with the whole “horses don’t know love, have feelings, etc”
Honestly, I’m a little creeped out, icked out, whatever you want to call it when I hear people say that.
We all know that sometimes people can be anthropomorphic with animals. But I also know that people can be guilty of going the opposite way….. not recognizing that animals DO feel emotion and DO have feelings.
I’ve seen firsthand beautiful horse/human bonds. An no, the horse wasn’t nickering for treats or turnout. I’ve noticed over the years, that when people treat their horses like interchangeable livestock, the horses pretty much respond that way to their owner.
But then there are people treat their horse as a beloved pet, still maintaining respect mind you, but they treat their horses with love and they get love in return. You can have both respect and love from a horse.
I’d want to say to this dude, maybe your horse doesn’t love you. Maybe to YOU the horse is just livestock. Maybe your horse only shows you affection when he wants treats. But don’t assume that is the case with everyone. And don’t assume that because someone does feel their horse is a soulmate that they let their horse walk all over them.
It’s kind of like the people who keep 20 hunting dogs out in the pen, never showing them one bit of attention or love. To THEM the dog is just a tool It’s fed and cared for, but never shown any affection. In turn, the dogs never develop any kind of bond with that owner. We used to get those hunting dogs into our rescue group all the time. They had no idea what love was because they were never shown it. Give them a few months and they were as bonded and loyal to a family as a golden retriever would be. People who say horses can’t love their owners remind me of the type of people that didn’t think a hunting dog could love. They are placing their own lack of feelings on that animal saying, “Oh they can’t feel love.” They can and they do.
T.H. White has a book of poetry called “A Joy Proposed”. I can’t seem to find my copy right now, but in it is a poem about his dog Brownie, which he concludes by saying that if, indeed, Heaven doesn’t let dogs in, then he will just go and burn with his Brownie rather than go to heaven without her.
It always resonated with me after having a very religious person inform me sanctimoniously that horses and other animals don’t have souls. For myself, I am in agreement with whoever said the following:
“God forbid I should go to a heaven in which there were no horses.”
Such a problem is like the problem so many parents have with their kids today.
You can’t be their best friend.
I love my horse. Admittedly, I spoil her. I’m patient, kind and considerate towards her. But I damn sure don’t let her get away with rude, nasty, silly and/or dangerous behavior. Certainly we have a bond and a “relationship”, for lack of a better word, but we are not equals, thus we are not friends. I am the alpha mare to her, and she knows it very well. Occasionally she slips up and tries something naughty, and she realizes she’s making a mistake usually about halfway in and goes “Oh…that won’t be good!”
I wouldn’t dream of beating a horse, but I believe firmly in a good smack when a horse is not giving a crap about their handler and is generally being stupid. One swift, to-the-point pop, no drama, no getting angry and emotional, and then go right on about what you were doing.
Amber went through some phase a few months ago where she wanted to threaten to kick me in the wash pit. Oh HELL no. I could see her thinking about it, but I went about my business, and when she lifted that leg and pinned her ears, I whacked her good, and she jumped back a little, looked at me, and I resumed hosing. She didn’t do it for about 5 minutes, then a little more slowly tried again. Whack, and a firm NO MAM. Right on about my business. She tried maybe one more time the next bath, and got the same response from me, and decided she didn’t want trouble from me.
She also used to be nippy, when I first got her… I hand feed her treats now, but she knows if she nips or bites, I will give her a pop on the nose. That’s the only time I will hit a horse in the facial area. It was hilarious the first time she tried that shit. She definitely had run someone else over, because she looked at me like “OH my GOD, I can’t believe you did that! O-M-G! Ahh!”. She was super dramatic…and then she got over it and didn’t nip at me. She did bite the barn owner we were with at the time, but she walked all over that asshat anyway because she knew she could get away with it.
I find that persistence is also a key. If a horse doesn’t like what you’re doing, and there is no reasonable cause for him to dislike it (like say trying to ride a lame horse that is limping and the nasty attitude is obviously because he’s hurting!), reprimand and do it anyway. Don’t reprimand them, but then stop doing it – that’s a reward, and they learn nothing. If Amber decided she was going to be stupid about me picking up her feet (and she never has been, thankfully!), I would pick up every one of her feet until she was quiet about it. That’s a huge pet-peeve of mine. I want to go jump off a cliff every time I see someone pop a horse and say “NO!”, but they never make the horse behave for whatever it was they wanted to do? The horse STILL got away with it, even though he got punished. Punishment is nothing without CORRECTION. Good behavior cannot be learned if it isn’t made to be shown and then rewarded. Bad behavior is deterred by punishment, but more bad behavior just springs up in different ways if you never teach what is right.
I do, I admit, use treats a lot. It’s really not the ideal way to reward, I know. But it has worked well for me personally. I’ve made it clear that treats are not to be expected for everything, and “Good girl” works as well. But it seems to give motivation and a clear message for “bigger” issues when the correct response is given the first few times.
Almost every barn I’ve ever boarded at has had people who say they’ll come and “help” me get my horse because so-and-so’s horse is the boss. I always respond that I really don’t give a rat’s ass what that horse thinks he/she is because when I’m in the field I’M the boss.
My first few forays into a pasture are generallymade with a knotted lead rope, and I will cheerfully apply it to the ass or shoulder of so-and-so’s beloved unicorn before I risk being run over by them or a horse they’re menacing. I aspire to make the point that bashing into me could be waaaay scarier than ducking a pasture bully.
Interestingly, my horses would always stay calm even if I have to let them go and dash off to attend to a millisecond bully-thrashing. They always seem clear that: a) I wasn’t mad at them and 2) While their ass is generally pretty safe if I am around, all bets are off if they don’t pay attention to where they put their feet (Because they’re rubber-necking to see where everyone else is!) and step on me.
I’m thinking that setting limits produces benefits when all the horses are at the gate…Respect for humans translates into a calm exit instead of the horrible rush that often results in people being rubbed into a gate post. Ouch!
I want to send you cookies just for the phrase “so-and-so’s beloved unicorn.” WIN!
I wish I could have done that at one of my previous yards. I had to be careful what I did in the way of physical correction (despite other people beating horses for refusing to jump – go figure) and there was no way I could have touched someone elses horse (I didn’t stay there any longer than I had to) so that sort of thing would not have been good. I used to have to drop the gate of the fence (electric fence) at the right moment so my mare could run out the field and then get the gate back up before the rest who were chasing my mare got out. Although the other horses wouldn’t have deliberately squashed me they did bully my mare and wouldn’t have tried to avoid me. Unless she was the last in the field I couldn’t get her near the gate because the rest of the herd chased her away every time even if I had a rope on her.
It was so dangerous and absolutly ridiculous – one of the main reasons I left that yard. The food thing was she’d come out the field and then spin and go ‘protect me’ (and give me my treat) lol
I’ve never, ever had that problem before or since even with a rough herd.
I HATE those situations. There are few things less pleasant than trying to get the wimp out and keep the bullies in without anyone being kicked or getting hurt rushing through the gate.
That’s why you need enough cross fencing that the wimps go out TOGETHER.
There were lots fields but no-one paid attention to who was in which one. Luckily my mare wanted to come in and would happily come out for me and turn, stand and wait till I was able to get her headcollar on and the yard was enclosed so even if she did disappear she couldn’t get out onto the road.
I’ve got wimps out of other fields but never had this problem as the other yards didn’t mind me defending myself and my horse and making it plain that I’m the top horse (most of the horses at that yard were the type on here – no discipline and walked over their owners)
Definitely feel that one.
Amber learned a long time ago to stand still no matter what the other horses are doing. When I’m demanding her attention, she better not so much as pin an ear at another horse. The mares she stays with still try to crowd our space, but a good whack across the chest with the end of my lead and they don’t want any trouble.
Oh. My. God. I know this woman! And I know this horse monster she has created
I was raised by an excellent horseman, and someday I might figure out everything he taught me, but one of the ground rules was NEVER let a 1,000 lb animal (controlled by 1 lb of brain cells) hurt me. Love my horses, but why would I let anything that big do me damage?
Last project was a “free” horse with a bad attitude and an excellent history of running over the prior owner to get loose. Owner’s response was to catch Poopsie with a treat and then put horsey away. So, horse learns …. what? I run over the hapless human, get to graze until I choose to be caught and get a treat, then get put away with no work. Wow. What a life. She and Champ must have gone in on the human training DVD. Once the hell bitch put somebody in the hospital by running over them, she was offered to me to keep and train, or shoot
I had to think about taking on 1300 lbs of bad attitude, but I honestly figued she was just a spoiled brat and could be re-trained.
A couple impressive come to Jesus meetings later, horsey is turning into an excellent mount. Interestingly, as I’ve become the alpha mare and the rules are clear with consistent appropriate discipline and rewards, horsey has become much more self-confident and a dream to ride. She’s also a treat to handle on the ground and can be moved off with just a raised hand and voice commands. Saw hte prior owners at a clinic not long ago and they couldn’t bellieve I was leading her through a crowd with a loose rein.
However, I believe if the horse had been allowed to continue, she would have turned into a real monster and ended up on a dead end road to nowhere. Not a lot of homes for 1300 lbs of dangerous horse. I’m happy the owners got rid of her before someone got really hurt.
I have a now 5 yo (got as a 4 yo 2 weeks off the track) OTTB, that was/is very much a horse that is intelligent and will take advantage of anyone. He learned some really, really nasty habits at the track, he use to bite constantly pin his ears and snarl and hiss like a cat until you would back off. I never did, I would snarl and hiss right back, he would then lean in to you and try to bite, I pegged his ass once with my fist in his teeth and he has NEVER threatened to bite ever again.
Now if you are new to him, he will pin those ears and threaten to get what he wants and he will bite, I cannot tell you how many times I told people to just smack him or let him run into their fist, they think I abuse the horse.
When he makes his snarly face (which he hates my mom so he does it all the time she is around) I just walk up to him and baby talk (I know weird) but it works, his ears goes up and his eye softens and he asks for some scritches. Don’t know why he hates her, but he does. He has never offered to bite or kick me since about a week after I got him. He is respectful on the ground, likes attention and even though he is girthy he never offers to bite or do anything, all because of the boundaries I have set.
Boundaries are:
If I am near you, you will not bite kick or threaten me or any horse near me
You will walk quietly beside me and not try to nip or bother the horse I am leading next to you
When I ask you to move over, you ask how far
When I drop your leadrope, you will stand ground tied until I come and grab the lead again
You do not bite
You do not kick
You do not throw a hissy fit when I am around
It sounds harsh, but those are the rules for all my horses, they know this and have great ground manners.
I like your list of rules. One of mine is, if I have a bucket with food in it, you pay attention to ME, not the bucket, until otherwise notified.
Just out of curiosity, what’s your mom’s voice like? I’ve noticed a lot of women who have trouble with horses pinning their ears at them also have shrill voices and speak in a stereotypically “female” manner – high-pitched laughter, loud fast talking, waving hands about. Shrill in a horse voice means “I’m upset.” Mares with babies use low voices. Most long-term horse women know this instinctively – you can tell the horse woman even when she’s not at the barn because of her deep, sexy voice!
my mom has a soothing quiet voice and all my ponies have always adored her except my new guy (Dynameius, I know horrid name, I call him Dino or Dinosaur). But she is in her mid 70′s now and knows that she can’t get out of the way faster and is also under 5ft, he basically knows he can scare her and loves to intimidate her. Yesterday he started the whole, pin ears to head and hiss and she walked up to him (had a leadrope in her hand) and whollopped (spelling there?) him hard on his jaw, it worked! He instantly softened and wanted attention from her. I stood back in stunned silence then collapsed into a huge laughing fit until I had to sit down, the look on that horses face was just PRICELESS LMAO! I asked her what in the world finally gave her the balls to smack him and she said (in her motherly tone of voice) well I realized he is just like your dad, all bark no bite, I smacked your dad once when he was being a bully and he has been the sweetst best husband since….I lmao again and then realized momma has good sense they will have been married I think 53 years next March..
So Mr. Dino has respect for my mom, though he did bite some random visitor yesterday, I wasn’t there. I heard from someone else he had done it, they said they walked over to him and he perked his ears and wanted attention…Like I said this horse is smart…scray smart
Oh the bucket of food.
My mare will pin her ears and be a witch about a bucket of food. The barn manager doesn’t seem to pay it attention, but she knows good and well she better not even tip an ear back, and she better stand quietly or she will not get food from me.
The first time she did it, I growled, stomped and got up in her space and let her know that the food was hers, but *I* decided when she got it and that was certainly not going to be when she bullied me out of it.
That is nothing but her showing dominance, like she would a subordinate horse, trying to fight for her food. It doesn’t matter that I don’t want it in the first place, it matters because she is NEVER allowed to show ANY display of dominance over me, end of story.
When I got my mare she was really bad for kicking – within the first week there were two occasions where I asked her to move over whilst she was eating her dinner and both times, if she had managed to hit me, I would have had a broken leg she kicked out that hard – she dented the door behind her! Both times she immediately lost her dinner and got a whole heap of trouble. Since then she’s kicked out at a person once when she felt trapped. She can still kick out at other horses if they walk to close behind her or feels trapped between them and something else. Because where she gets tied up outside her box is quite a narrow corrider (there is enough space for a horse to walk behind but it’s pretty tight) and so if there is another horse walking behind her I will stand at her bum and she absolutly won’t do anything – she knows the consequences far too well.
I always found that bad behaviour around their feed is very quickly corrected by removing the feed whenever they display the behaviour. All our horses have to back up when we take a feed in until they are told they may come and get it. The first week or so we have them that has always resulted in an argument, usually with the horse either trying to barge us out the way or spinning to kick. The feed is promptly removed and although they have their hay they don’t get the feed. Next morning they are given the opportunity to back up, and bar one horse who took two go’s to ge tthe idea, every horse has backed up politely until allowed forward.
I am not saying all punishment is abuse. But I am countering the article’s assertion that any training not heavy-handed must be ineffective, poor, and dangerous.
This article does a huge dis-service to all other training methods but the punishment-based (domination-based) old school approach. I have seen horses “trained” using nothing but punishment and intimidation, and when applied incorrectly the horses also kicked and reared. A local barn prided itself on its years of experience in training. It looked more like being a bully to me. The Barn Owner’s own horse was out of control, would kick AT people, knocked barn help over, and was generally out of control. He was so bad we’d open his stall, open the barn aisle door, run out of sight and let him let himself in and out — he was DANGEROUS. She couldn’t see her constant power-struggles with him were not working for this horses. And she refused to let us use anything else. I ended up quitting my job there, partly due to him and some of the other safety issues.
I have had good success in training & handling my horse using the less harsh variations of “Natural horsemanship” (release-of-pressure) and sometimes I will mix in clicker training in certain situations. I own & ride 3 of my own, and I foster 3-6 for a local horse rescue. I have NEVER been kicked, stomped, bucked off, or dragged. The only time in my life I was ever bitten was when I worked at the out-of-control barn (mentioned above) because those horses were never taught emotional control. I attend training clinics and the clinicians and attendees remain safe and uninjured. My horses listen to me because I have taught them what to expect, I reinforce desired behavior, and set boundaries — not because I need to terrorize them to the point of thinking they’re about to die. “Respect” is a two-way street, and for me to expect good behavior from him, he must be able to expect fair & consistent behavior from me.
Quiet handling, rewards, and kindness do NOT make horses mean. Inconsistent handling, total lack of reading the horse, demanding what the horse cannot do, and unfair training make horses mean. ANY training method can be mis-used. Please don’t paint the rest of the world with a broad brush because you bumped into one bad trainer.
I do not read anywhere in that article that training should be heavy-handed. Where are you reading that?
The point is that if you catch behaviors early, you don’t have to punish. If you have to punish, the truth is, you ALREADY let something slip. We all do it, too! But the truth is, no one is advocating some sort of training where you are always punishing because that would mean your methods weren’t working at all.
Do you really think that horses can comprehend “emotional control?” Really? Half the HUMANS I know cannot comprehend it!
Can I add one more thing? It seems there is a HUGE, huge difference in how a horse behaves toward its person when its an only horse versus part of a herd. Seems like guys like Larry are used to horses in large groups, constantly buying and selling them, seeing them come and go. It’s understandable they he would think they don’t bond to or love their humans because he doesn’t feel that way about them, and in turn, they don’t feel that way about him. He is nothing more than their slave owner/caregiver.
But it’s nothing short of magic when you see a horse that has been a person’s only horse for many years. I can think of 3 people: my aunt, my trainer, a girl at my barn who all have owned their horses for many years. It’s their only horse. The horse gets a lot of one on one attention. In turn, their horses love and adore them. My trainer’s horse nickers any time he sees her. He’s not asking for treats. He wants some attention. She always has to stop for a second at his stall and pet him. If he hears here talking nicely to another horse, or sees her showing another horse attention, he starts banging on his stall door out of total jealousy. My aunt’s horse has a FIT if she sees her riding the neighbor’s horse. I’ll bet none of Larry’s horses do this.
I agree with his come to Jesus talk with this lady. I tell people all the time, you can NOT hurt a horse with your hand. Do not be afraid to talk to them in their own language. Smacks, slaps, small kicks is what they understand. I just really hate the notion that animals don’t love. I can’t believe in 2011, people still think this way. Well it makes sense that our rescue group had several dogs and cats returned for being “too loveable and needy”. Some people are genuinely surprised when this ball of fur actually wants to be with them and near them and it has nothing to do with food. It’s just loving their human.
I agree with you about love. And, incidentally, he seems to think that dogs are capable of love. Yet a dog which is allowed to get away with anything will be just as badly-behaved as any horse.
I’ve seen a horse whicker and run across a pasture to greet a mate they hadn’t seen in five years. I’ve seen a horse do the same for a person. And it’s not about treats – more often, in my experience, horses don’t love people who give them treats all the time, because they are too busy thinking about treats to think about the person.
Pair bonding goes to show that horses are certainly capable of love between themselves and from my experiences they are certainly capable of love for a person. It may not be exactly our definition of love but they feel affection and attachment to other beings. My mare will nicker as soon as I come on the yard and always comes running to the gate when I go to get her in. I don’t routinely carry or feed treats and she’s usually been fed before I get to the yard so it’s not just food related.
Off Topic. I haven’t posted in a long while. But I just received this e-mail from a friend:
Posting for a friend of a friend: FREE HORSES!!! 52 thoroughbred horses need homes. Will go to Sugarcreek this Sat. for slaughter. Gentleman died, his son wants nothing to do with them. Most broodmares are broke and some are in foal. Weanlings, yearlings, 2 yrs and 3 yrs old most are gelded. FREE and papered. Friend of the deceased is trying to find homes. 404-463-4288 Barnesville. Please copy and paste this!
It was a hoax the first time it went around and it’s still a hoax. The horses were never in any danger, and have been placed.
According to the two articles previously published in “The Horse”, it was not a hoax.
Taken from, The Horse.com, ” Ohio Veterinarian’s Son Confirms 52 Thoroughbreds Rehomed”, Feb. 18, 2011 (the second article) :
“”The social media helped find homes for the horses,” Stearns said. “We had calls from people in Germany; it was a little bizarre.” He credited Boggs, along with Jerry Noss and his father’s trainer Tony Cucinotta for “getting on Facebook, getting on e-mail, and calling responsible horse owners. They are the people that literally made it happen.”
According to a mesage posted by Lynn Boggs on her facebook page this past Fri., some unknown person has reposted that 52 thoroughbreds are looking for homes along with her phone # etc. and she is asking that it stop as it is not a post from her (so yes, it is a hoax THIS time, however not being perpetrated by her).
So Lynn Boggs was not the evil, lying, scamming bitch you portrayed her to be in your blog. While the internet can be a wonderful way to get important (and factual) information out to many people in a short period of time, anyone who has even a remedial knowledge of facebook (or email and the internet in general) understands how messages can be spread and changed, modified or added to etc., and then recirculated again by ANYONE at some later date.It’s a shame that you do not possess the ethical fibre to admit when you are wrong and have posted misleading, nonfactual, and just plain false information. Opinion or not.
Apparently snowponies, you missed the thread on the 52 thoroughbreds and the pleasant replies and comments from Lynn Boggs
Agreed. A wise old trainer I knew once said “I don’t want to be the horses FRIEND, I want to be their god.”
You can be a kind, merciful god or a capricious, arbitrary god, but you gotta be the god.
Wow, remember those 52 Thoroughbreds back in January/February that needed to find homes after their owner passed away? I’m still getting that message forwarded to me.
Here’s a mantra I like to repeat to myself if a horse starts to act rudely:
YOUR SAFETY COMES FIRST. ALWAYS.
“absolute rock-solid consistency it requires (like me, which is why I don’t use it).”
And the timing. I don’t use it (dogs and agility) because my lack of timing sharpness would not help their understanding!
This is a great thread.
I can’t agree that horses need to know that you are the boss! When I think of all the “problem” school horses I rode over the years, I think that they were always my favourites. Here is a problem, how do I fix it? Each one was a little different but it all came down to one thing – I’m in charge. Now to ramble off and on topic….Friday morning I went to the track and brought home a cute 5 year old mare who had to be off the track NOW. The barn owner is on vacation until Monday but has left several women in charge until she comes back. I’m heading off to camp for the long weekend. After getting her settled into her new stall (she arrived in the late afternoon) and just hanging out there for a while, I leave the barn for the joys of camping, with the plan that it is only 30 minutes from camp to the barn, I’ll visit at least once a day. Go, camp, relax – we have it under control. So I went. As the evening went on, it was noted that she had broken out in hives and wasn’t settling in, then she wasn’t drinking or pooping. Texts flew, barn owner and vet were consulted and they needed my permission to get the vet in. Do it, I’m starting the car now & off to the bank machine and racing to the barn. She was becoming dehydrated and they caught the very start of colic. Vet treats the horse, I pay the vet. She leaves instructions for the horse to be walked for 10 minutes and then 5 minutes of grass every 2 hours. I was sent home with the promise that she would be looked after and all would be well, and that they would text me at certain times with all updates. I got regular updates at every walk and every poop and everything was going well. Went back in the morning to walk her again. The lady who spent the night with her and walked her asked if I wanted to do the next walk. Of course. So I walked her. I was a little worried about that – after all I have never walked or handled an ottb who was JUST off the track, but this is my new horse and it needed to be done. She was amazingly well behaved, she was incredibly strong but not once did she pull on me or step out of line but I also was of the mindset that I was in charge and we were going to get off on the right foot. Our next walk was with lessons, schooling in the sand rings, and turn out going on and again, she behaved beautifully. Everything got a good look (especially the horses who were turned out grazing) and she was definitely on full alert but she listened to me beautifully. After I put her back in her stall after our second walk, some of my barn friends (several of whom had been with her and the vet the night before) came to see her and ask about her. They knew she was an ottb, but they were shocked that she had only come off the day she arrived and her last race was only 3 days before that. Now we are up to Monday, barn owner arrives home from vacation at the same time I arrive to take my new girl (she really needs a barn name! I was planning on getting a gelding.) for a walk. She is even impressed with new horse’s manners. Vet has given the all clear and tomorrow she gets her first turnout.
Now, after our rough first night together, could I make all sorts of excuses for the poor little sweetheart acting like a little shit and let her get away with it? I could have, but I would have paid for it forever. I snapped her new lead to her new breakaway halter and walked her like I meant business and she listened. This gorgeous little girl that I picked up on Cathy’s birthday will be with me for the rest of her life, but on the off chance that my life doesn’t go as long as hers, I am going to make sure that she will be a well behaved, well mannered and well trained horse with a job.
I don’t see that anyone else has made this comment, so I wanted to point out: picking feet is not optional. It’s essential for the health and safety of horse and rider. This woman who loves her horse that she has such a “bond” with is willing to give him a stone bruise, or thrush.
It’s like not giving a kid medicine because they don’t like the taste. What loving parent would put up with it for two heartbeats? A parent who refused to man up in that situation and be the bad guy, even if kid is screaming “Mommy I hate you forever!” with tears streaming down his little face, would not be seen as kind, but abusive.
This case reminds me of a friend’s experience. (LOL, saying “a friend” always sounds like you’re masking your own identity, but this really was a friend.)
Her QH gelding just ran the show. He would snap at her in crossties because he was “girthy” (yes, even for the turnout sheet), but never got more than a whiny “stop it, Saaaaammm.” But the clincher was the time Sam spooked a little at the mounting block. My friend didn’t get hurt but got rattled enough to decide her horse could never deal with the block again. From then on, someone had to drag a little stepstool to the middle of the arena so she could mount from that. Impractical and disruptive. And of course, once my friend was in the saddle, things just went downhill. By the time he began spinning in place instead of moving forward, my friend had enough and sold him. Now, under a new owner, he’s apparently a very nice dressage horse, and my friend got a little paint mare, which she works under the watchful eye of our instructor.
Oh how this article resonates with me. Every word of Larry’s response to “sue” is spot on. I know, I’ve lived it myself.
I had horses that I owned and horses that I rode go from wonderful riding mounts to completely unrideable in a matter of months. Most of the problems I had were riding related issues and I eventually, after too many years and too many ruined horses, stopped riding. I tried for years, with upper level trainers, and everything from problem horse trainers to alternative therapies to figure out what was wrong with my horses and finally, although it was like hammering through a solid brick wall, I did finaly get it that the problme was me and my riding.
Rarely did I have ground-respect issues with horses. Sure I have had horses have their moments of being total asses- rearing and not paying attention, who hasn’t? But most of the time, I got passed those moments and never had any type of dangerous, long term problem with ground respect in any horse I’ve owned. With one exception….
And that’s where my “sue” story really starts…… with the gray mare. Gray Mare was stunning and perfect. I bought her when she was 8. She was a broodmare for 4 years so when I got her, she was a bit green, but it did not take long before she was riding perfectly. For 6 months I thought I had the perfect horse and really though I had something good going on. She was a little impatient on cross ties, but nothing that sent red-flags to me and nothing we did not grow past.
If there were other problems, I never caught on to them. I was working with a USDF medalist trainer and I thought things were going well. I was planning the following spring’s show season. Training level, nothing fancy. But I was so ready to get my prized mare into the show ring. And then everything went downhill. While riding her one day, she had a meltdown. In 20 minute’s time, she went from forward and flexing to rearing and striking and squealing. I was never able to ride her again. I tried for 3 years.
I thought I hurt her back. I had vets, chiros, you name it all evaluate and work on her. It was after I could no longer ride her, her ground manners became extremely aggressive. She became violent. She would charge me, I couldn’t do “anything she didn’t like”, which was work in all forms. She was fine for grooming, tying, feet and all, but I couldn’t longe her she would attack me, I tried some NH stuff with her, and she would try to kill me, especially when trying to back through the “L”. I tried ground driving her, but she would buck, strike, turn and charge. Everyting we used to do so well, like trer loading, even, which I used to be able to do myself, became a massive fight. She would charge, rear, refuse to step in, when she used to load quietly and stand fine. I hadn hauled to lessons every week with her for months.
For YEARS, she was this aggressive and completely unrideable. I had trainers come to my barn and she would rear and strike with them riding her, too. As a lasst straw, I hauled her to a vet in another state for an evaluation, and he told me straight up there was nothing physically wrong with mare, that she was a bitch and in desperate need of training. He recommended I take her to a trainer and let them work the kinks out of her.
I brought her over to my hunter/jumper trainer two days later. She was in the barn 48 hours and when they rode her, she rode quietly with no problems. After 3 years of rearing, striking, charging, kicking, attacking – she was back to her quiet, sweet and forward lovely moving self upon the first ride. I was so twisted up over her, I couldn’t even think about trying to ride her again. I loved her, but it was clear she hated me. She would rear and pin her ears if she saw me coming, even if I was riding another horse.
I ended up giving her away to one of the many other people that could ride her. And slowly it sank into my thick head that I had created the whole situation. I didn’t back down from her when she was being a bitch – when she used to charge at me, I would end up having to strike her with the whip to keep her away, and if she started cow-kicking at me on the ground lines, I would use the whip , but all it did was spur her to become more violent. She would attack harder and run through the whip to get at me.
After she was gone, I continued to try to ride, and I contniued to end up with back-sore bucking horses for a few more years.It took me years, but I did finally come to understand that I was the cause of it all.
I don’t ride anymore, but I still have horses. I drive them. I am blessed to have 3 wonderful horses that have only ever improved in the years I’ve owned them for. When I stopped riding earlier this year, I began to train the last riding horse I’ll own to drive. I am happy to say that he is now successfully and quietly working as a driving horse, and has had 6 drives so far!
I give them treats, and even have 2 of them trained to do some tricks, and I’m quite fond of giving them treats, but I don’t have the behaviour issues or ground manner rpoblems I had with the gray mare, and I don’t have issues with them as driving horses, they all work well at their jobs, and I hope to maybe show my newly broke driving horse someday when he’s ready.
I hope people really do learn from this letter because it is an important message.
http://www.kshai1715.wordpress.com
Horses. Life. Photography.
You know, I am so dying to work with you. Do you know that?
If you are ever in Los Angeles, you have to hit me up. I really am dying to see you ride and see if I can find what you’re doing. I don’t have the greatest eye in the world, I know people who are better, but sometimes I do see these things.
LOL, thanks
But I’ll be damned if I ever get on a horse again. I can’t take the heartache I feel from ruining horses that I love. I used to love to ride, but honestly, since I stopped in February this year, I really don’t miss it. I finally got my QH driving and I have 2 others that drive, and I enjoy driving and am looking forward to hopefully showing next year with my QH. Maybe I can try to beat my husband with his hackney (although I doubt I will!)
But the last thing I want to do is ruin another horse. I just hope other people can learn from my experiences and the experiences of people like “Sue”. There needs to be less of “us” in the world and more people that know what the heck they’re doing.
http://www.kshai1715.wordpress.com
Horses. Life. Photography.
Well… there isn’t a polite way to say this… but looking at your site, you are pretty heavy. When someone says they have problems with back-sore horses, that’s the first thing I look for. In particular short women who are heavy often get small horses who are simply not comfortable carrying them. No one wants to be honest and hurt someone’s feelings, but a horse that is comfortable carrying a 140 lb person simply isn’t as happy with a 200 lb person. And there’s a difference between a 200 lb man, who isn’t fat, and a 200 lb fat woman – the woman’s legs can’t be used correctly because the fat is in the way. She physically CAN’T ride correctly because she is wearing a fat suit.
Please don’t think I’m being critical – I’m not a skinny person myself, and my mom is heavy, so I’m very aware of this issue. But it’s a real problem that doesn’t disappear just by being ignored. Just getting the right horse can go a long way towards fixing it.
Don’t worry, you can’t say anything I haven’t heard before, Alliecat. I know I’m heavy. And I no longer ride so I don’t risk my horse’s welfare. Since I stopped riding, I have also started losing weight – after realizing the impact of my weight that it was having on my life. I’ve lost 35 pounds so far, with 35 more to go so I can get back to where I was a decade ago. Fortunately, horses don’t need to worry about carrying my fat ass around anymore (although, they do have to *pull* me around, lol).. but at least I can work how fat my ass actually is.
Thanks for your thoughts.
http://www.kshai1715.wordpress.com
Horses. Life. Photography.
Congrats on the 35 pounds, I bet you feel so much better already!
I’m guessing many of you have seen this, it’s been going on facebook for a bit now. Anybody near LA might wanna check it out though. I’m just going to directly paste the facebook status.
FREE HORSES! 52 thoroughbred horses need homes. Will go to Sugarcreek this Sat. for slaughter.Gentleman died his son wants nothing to do with them. Most broodmares are broke and some are in foal weanling, yearlings, 2 yrs and 3 yrs old most are gelded.FREE and papered. Friend of the deceased is trying to find homes. 440-463-4288 Barnesville. Please copy and paste this! They are near Bunkie, La
HOAX. Google it.
I googled it, went to snopes.com, it says it was true but they have already found homes. I remember this story. http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/horses.asp
It was on the blog at the time and the woman who posted it showed up and was just a nutburger…sent a pretty clear message about her credibility!
Actually, I own one of those colored sticks myself. It has all kinds of handy uses. As you’ve pointed out, it’s a great tool for loading! My horse even knows 7 games. It’s just a little scary when someone whips one of those things out when your husband is underneath their horse trying to get it’s feet trimmed.
It doesn’t take a lot of horse knowlege to know this basic discipline. With our yearling, my husband while trying to fill her water got “that look” and a butt ready to kick. He threw the full water bucket on top of her screaming at the same time. She learned. Never has tried to kick again! And this was in winter in Wisconsin.. cold.
What I find difficult is teaching children how and when to discipline horses. I find that they get into hitting the horse for every little thing so it means nothing. They seem to want to show that they are the boss. I am working on having discussions with them when I see this to correct them. Advice?
LOL I’d love to have seen that filly’s face! And that’s a great punishment, because there was no way it would hurt the filly in any way.
Kids are tough…I’d try to make it easy to relate to like comparing their own transgressions in terms of how serious they are, and what kind of punishment those sort of transgressions might deserve. So we don’t want to whack the horse when it does something minor (like not clean its room) but if it did something DANGEROUS (like playing with a loaded gun) then that’s when a spanking might be deserved. If you get spanked for everything, you ignore it. It has to be what happens only when you do very bad things.
My mom has told us a story about when my sister was little – she used to take her bike, lean it against the work top and climb up and try to pull the pans. She was about 4 at the time I think. Despite child gate, lots of talking to she persisted so my mom picked her up, told her to touch the hot pan. She did and burnt her hand. The question ‘did that hurt?’ was asked, and after that she stopped trying to climb on the cooker as she knew it was going to hurt but she learnt by a small burn on her hand instead of a pot full of boiling water all over her.
That’s good advice, relating the punishment doled out to the horse to the punishments the children themselves receive, assuming that they are disciplined. I cannot tell you the number of parents who have admitted to me that they just let their child/children do whatever they want because its easier than saying no or disciplining (I’m a teacher) or worse they think their child’s shit don’t stink. Maybe riding instructors need to begin by explaining bad behavior results in consequences, giving examples of each.
OT but have to share–one of the casinos here in Missouri has a TV commercial where the guy wins a jackpot and buys a quadricorn and keeps it in his garage! Wonder how long it’ll be before someone tries to breed those?!
When the treats come out, the brain shuts off.
Way off topic, but jeez, look what Retail Hell Underground had up today.
http://www.retailhellunderground.com/my_weblog/2011/08/mule-ill-take-a-big-mac-and-fries.html
This is off topic, but would anyone be interested in following a blog dedicated to horse conformation critique? I loved it when fugs would give hers and was thinking about starting a new blog once fugs announced that she was getting rid of this one. Each post would have a picture (or pictures) of a different horse and the conformation critiques could be done in the comments. Readers could also submit pictures of their horses for critique by e-mailing me. Would this be of interest at all? Thanks.
I am amazed that it is OKAY with everyone for this guy to offer to solve this clueless person’s problems by selling her HIS DVDs and books!
She needs a good trainer to help her IN PERSON! I could understand him saying “get my stuff to understand a good training system” but then he needed to tell her to find a trainer that follows those prinicples. IMO, telling this person just to buy his stuff may give her info on training methods more of us agree with, and will certainly give him money, but I thought most agreed that newbies “Training your own horse with my DVDs!” was a bascially fatally flawed model.
OT, but my sister just sent me this….
“There are 52 horses that need good homes. They are free and papered. Most are broke. Some in foal weanling,
yearlings, 2yrs. and 3yrs. Most are gelded. They were really well cared for, but the owner passed away. They are
being given for free until this Saturday, then the remainder will go to slaughter. So if you know anyone who is
willing to go that far in such a short time for a horsie tell them to get on it quick.
They are in Barnsville, Ohio. The contact number is 404-463-4288. sadly that is the only info i was given”
I am in no position at this time to buy a horse. Hopefully someone here will be able to help. Thanks
Hm, this sounds suspiciously like the scam mentioned above. I honestly HOPE this is a scam and no real horses are in danger…
LMAO! I once did the same thing with my daughter, she was around 2 or 3 and decided that since the the stomp your feet, scream and hold your breath tantrum worked for the twins visiting next door, she would give it a shot. I was watering the garden with a bucket of cold water, after a few seconds of the hissy fit, she got watered instead! She tried that type of fit one more time, until she saw that I ignored her and went to the sink to fill a pail of cold water. I only got half filled before she decided t wasn’t worth it. I would have loved to see the filly’s face too! Bet it was the same look my daughter had!
Hey Fuglies…
Just thought I’d grab some backup. People are bashing me for saying this little girl should have a helmet on…bellering on about how its a “choice” etc.etc. Please back me up! This is Cowboy Magic’s facebook page.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=254465831248684&set=a.159375824091019.40248.146266528735282&type=1&theater
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=254433571251910&set=a.159375824091019.40248.146266528735282&type=1&theater&pid=953709&id=146266528735282
There is the real link. Thank you.
My suggestion to you is stop trying to debate with people who won’t listen.
Show them this link instead.
http://youtu.be/awJDYBhBPzk
I think one thing people sometimes miss is that since horses learn by repetition, they must UNLEARN by repetition. You may need to go out of your way to “trigger” the unwanted behavior and then correct it. I have volunteered for years at a PATH premier accredited therapeutic riding program. For every hour of therapy work, there are hours of training of various types.
We try very hard to avoid physically punishing horses in front of students. You can’t tell an autistic rider that he must respect the horse and then hit it in front of him. When a horse is being pushy with its leader during class (nipping, head-butting, space-invading) we repeatedly recreate the conditions under which the bullying occurred outside of class and punish the horse as necessary (and praise EVERY time he chooses not to bully!) until the behavior is gone. And yes, not punishing in front of students means that in three months the pushiness may well return, but another round of conditioning will extinguish the problem again.
So, if your horse has an ingrained habit of trying to cow-kick when you pick his hind feet, picking once a day when he comes in from turnout isn’t good enough. Pick them several times a day even if it’s not necessary. That gives you several chances to correct if you need to and it also gives him several chances to choose to behave and be rewarded.
Sometimes I think it also helps to think not so much about extinguishing a bad behavior as creating a new good one. At age ten, I leased a horse who was a bully when being returned to his stall after work. He would drag you through the door to his hay. Instead of trying to make him lead into the stall more slowly, I taught him a new behavior. I trained him to halt just outside his stall door before entering. We started with a few seconds and worked up to 30. To be allowed to return to his stall, he had to stand still without pulling. If he didn’t do it right, we walked away from the stall about 30 feet, then came back for another try. His overly indulgent mommy had tolerated the behavior for ages. It only took a few weeks to reach those 30 seconds of standing politely outside his open door as his hay was calling to him. He still walked into the stall a little quickly, but at least he was doing it with me properly positioned at his head so I wouldn’t get stepped on or squashed into the door frame.
Im no rocket scientist horse trainer. I was just a ten year old who got tired of being dragged around and thought of a very simple solution. If you use your brain, you can probably think of a new desirable behavior to replace an old naughty one.
Once rode with a trainer who had an ill-behaved schoolhorse. This gelding would attempt to bite me when I groomed and tacked him up. I once made the mistake of ducking under his head instead of going around and he slammed his chin into my head. When I would take him to the mounting block he would strike out at me with his front feet. I mentioned these behaviors to the trainers and she said “oh he’s just like that” She assured me that he had been checked out with the vet and had no pain or illness issues. So the next time I went to the mounting block I carried a crop and whacked him on the chest when he tried to strike out. After a few times, he stopped the behavior and stood quietly. I mentioned this to my trainer and she told me to stop doing it because “it upsets him and he’s sensitive” So I stopped riding there! If I’m not mistaken she sold him a few months later to be a little kids school horse. SIGH.
O.M.G.: http://corpuschristi.craigslist.org/pas/2500129383.html
For reference when it gets flagged:
“I have a beautiful AQHA registered stallion. He is 3 years old. We have done some ground work with him, and he is well mannered. He has been under saddle and learns well. My daughter also rides him bareback. He leads well, lets you pick up his feet, and is an overall very gentle horse. I would take the time and train him, but I really don’t want my daughter riding a stalluon, and I don’t want to geld him because of what he is. I was asking $2875 for him but I reduced for quick sale $1875 or am willing to trade for a gentle bomb proof gelding or mare, or a bumper pull horse trailer of equal value. If interested please call XX-XXX-XXXX. Please don’t email. Btw, whoever flagged my ad I appreciate it as it allows me to re-post, and my ad goes to the top of the list. “
Er, that link leads to a completely different add, but a very stupid one just the same:
if you can get a halter on the horse i can train him, in a few sessions he should be able to lounge, back up, disengage, desensatize, trailer loading, and do round pen work. If your horse can already do these thats wonderful I would take it a step further ex: have the horse lounge figure eights between me and a fence, have him backup 100 meters and weave in and out of cones not just a few steps, just simple things done with groundwork wil give you a great safe horse to ride that wants to listen to you. All of these drills create are a basic foundation for getting your horse to respect you and obey that you can go back to. Im 17 years old, I have basic wrangler certification and im a western rider. Also if the horse is saddle ready I can work that too, i believe building a horses foundation at every level is vital. Saddle work would be basic drills but would involve the horse listening to the rider. You should be able to walk a straight line with your horses shoulders goin one way and his hip another, that involves control over the head, neck, shoulder, rib, and hip. Riding should be fun, nt a hassle.
Who wouldn’t a 17 year trainer who can even DESENSATIZE your horse?
Yes!! We need more trainers like this, telling it like it is.
I use “Big Red”. Big Red doesnt hurt but will scare the living shit out of a horse when used properly. Makes the horse think he is going to die from what he/she did. I use it primarily for biters. Big Red is a big fat red plastic bat.
I find that using some psychological feedback in a swift and prompt manner can work just as effectively as physical pain. HOWEVER, the head of the horse is off limits. The neck shoulder and back are the points of impact of Big Red.
I will put Big Red handle part in my back pocket or set very close to me. When a horse comes at me to bite I will lay into the horse’s shoulder /neck areas for about 4 counts then stop. I will allow the horse to think about it for a few more seconds then go back to what I was doing before the incident like nothing had happened. Usually only takes one lesson but I have had to do as many as 3 but never any more than that. (that horse was just hell bent on biting something.) I never have a problem after that and the horse is not scared of me or shy or what have you. They might look at me with a different manner ……like a dont bite humans kind of manner.
Horses are prey animals, they dont want to be “killed” and they definatly do have the capacity of one time learning…..they have to for if they make the mistake again it could kill them. Horses also learn very quickly what brings them pleasure esp getting treats (food) and learn very quickly that it doesnt take much to frighten a timid human being into submission to get what they want. Some horses are more cheeky at it than others. Most horses, if they know where they stand in the “pecking order” are compliant at being second behind the human alpha. But they need to understand that and know it.