Even pigs can’t live like that!
Jan 28 2011
Today’s train wreck, from Copperopolis, California…we have nine mares and a stallion (the stallion is the one in the DOG KENNEL) living in a slop that I don’t think PIGS could live in, and local authorities claim they cannot do anything because the horses are being fed.
Does this look fed to you?
Nice fence, douchebags!
This is not a stallion facility.
How would you like to live in this?
From Rehorse Rescue: “There are 10 horses, 9 mares and a stallion in Copperopolis, Ca living in these horrific conditions. These horses were brought to our attention in January of 2010. At that time we were advised by Calaveras County Animal Control that the owner had until February 2010 to improve the living conditions for these horses or they would be taking legal action. We offered our help at that time to Animal Control as well as the owner to take all of these horses. A concerned citizen emailed us these pictures taken yesterday and Wednesday.”
Um, it’s almost February of 2011 and I am quite certain there has not been any improvement. I am trying to get the exact address now, so that it’s worth it to call and complain, but this is clearly a situation where the living conditions are so unsanitary and improper as to warrant seizure.
This is good timing on the story — I think someone just asked me in the blog comments if A.C. can take your animals if they look ok, just because your place is messy. Well, messy is one thing — a pig sty is another. Calaveras County should most certainly be able to seize these animals. I’m guessing they just don’t want to be saddled with them.
P.S. When your stallion is in a dog kennel, it is a good sign that YOU DO NOT HAVE anywhere to keep a stallion! Yes, I am dying to know the name of the asshat and if s/he thinks they are a breeder. Good grief…
Off topic but I know we have dog lovers here. Ollie is an 8 year old Staffordshire and Shy-Shy is a 4 year old Lab mix and unfortunately their mom, who is far, far younger than I am, has cancer and is not doing well at all.
These guys need a new home and it would be awesome if they could stay together. They live with cats and are fine, but she does not know how they would do with children or other large dogs. They are very affectionate and mellow — there is a lot of video available if you’re interested. They are currently in Florida but she is based out of Los Angeles so odds are she could get them to you nearly anywhere if you were the right home. If you are looking to adopt a couple of dogs, and you really want to do a good deed for someone who needs to give them up through no fault of her own, e-mail Carolyne at octoberfire13@aol.com.
Finally, I bet this will get guessed quickly, but which Enumclaw kill pen survivor is this? He is 13 years old, over 17 hands and looking for a home! He does have a club foot, so flat work only, please. Contact Second Chance Ranch if you’re interested!
191 comments to “Even pigs can’t live like that!”
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment. Not a member? Registering is free, and you do it here!
Is it cheating if I know?
LOL, yes.
Gee’s and I thought we had mud problems!!! I’ve seen seizures from less bad places so there’s definately enough there to seize those poor horse – the state their feet are going to be in from that mud is unthinkable!
On a seperate note that horse for adoption is just cute.
That thing on the top looks like a giant Shetland! A wormy one…
Okay, for you dog lovers out there, does anybody else see anything wrong with this? I was watching some of Sit Means Sit’s videos, and noticing how well trained their dogs were… then I saw the shock collars. This HUGE FRANCHISE runs entirely off of training with shock collars. I have not seen any praise in ANY of the videos. No treats, no pats on the head, nothing. The dogs in these obedience classes do not look happy; in fact, many of them have their heads held low, like they are afraid they are going to be shocked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MaYgSG5au0
In another one of the videos, one of the trainers is explaining to police K9 units how it is important for the dogs to have fear, because without fear the dog will have control over you. WHY DO PEOPLE BUY THIS STUFF?
Ugh, they’re selling a DOG-TRAINING FRANCHISE??? Sorry, but some things require, you know, people to have actual talent and to have put in hard work and long hours before they can legitimately reap commercial rewards. This isn’t “Curves” or “Subway” where (I assume) you can just purchase a kit and some machinery, follow some instructions, and suddenly be mass-producing whatever results you’re selling. Animals are unique individuals that cannot properly be handled through a single method or set of methods!! >.< Grrrrrrrr!
As a fellow dog person I abhore dog shocking devices. I have one of the most obedient and trained heeler/pbt mutt’s you’ll ever meet and he has never had a shock collar on him in his life. The dogs in the link posted do not look overly fearful of being shocked, but I hate seeing the collars being encouraged. They arent necessary people!!! If you need a shock collar, you have no business training or having a dog in the first place!
On the other note, a certain amount of fear is necessary for dog training. For most dogs just being firm with them consistantly for a few lessons is enough to establish your position. A dog must see you as the alpha pack member, plain and simple. No, this does not mean that your dog should cringe every time you wave your arm, but the dog does need to have a healthy respect for you. Maintaining the alpha status while retaining a great relationship with your dog is what dog training is all about.
My “catty-corner” neighbor, who has a young son who received a shelter puppy for Christmas, came to rescue his son’s dog from MY yard (for the second time–the pup is a very exuberant and SOCIAL dog who digs under fences to “visit” and find playmates) and asked what I thought of shock collars. I said, “If you want the truth, I think they are horrid. If you want an ANSWER, I think they are for owners who spend no time training their dogs.”
I recommended the puppy class at the local PetsMart, said it was excellent for bonding and socializing, and that all my dogs had gone through that training (with great success, I might add ;o)
No shock collars or choke chains allowed.
As for Copperopolis, I’ve lived near there and yeah, there is mud, but OMG. I cannot FATHOM if those horses have any hoof LEFT. Animal Control’s reaction? I know several AC “officers” and some appear to enjoy making creative excuses for NOT doing their jobs. Others are very conscientious and care greatly for the animals.
Especially if conditions warrant a quarantine, AC can opt out of seizing horses, crying they have “no place to put them.” FINDING a place would involve WORK, and God forbid they put forth effort to earn their salaries.
That doesn’t EXCUSE them from not removing horses kept in such deplorable conditions. Even if these horses go to a the stables at the local fairgrounds’ stabling facilities, it would be infinitely preferable to keeping them in the pigsty with lots of food.
First off there is NEVER an excuse for not removing horses when the conditions are like that. There isn’t a county in the US that doesn’t have fairgrounds, with stalls and facilities that can be opened up to quarantine and house horses in an emergency like this. They are not being used most of the year, they are state or county owned, and all it takes is a few phone calls and a bit of work to get them ready and the animals saved.
As for training dogs with shock collars, I took in a rescue Irish Wolfhound. 140 pounds and 35 inches at the shoulder (8.3h) He was untrained, un-socialized, and fearful. Now he is an ambassador for his breed, has his first AKC Rally title (obedience) and we do Therapy visits with Pets on Wheels. I have never used anything but a leash and regular collar, not even a choke chain on him. But, from day one I insisted on a set of rules and behaviors, using firm body language and positive reinforcement. Oh, I’m 5’4″ and handicapped. So don’t tell me you need a shock collar to train your 45 pound lab.
Sorry but I think its unfair to generalize that just because you were able to use a certain method to train your dog that everyone should be able to do the same.
Dogs personalities vary as much a human personalities do, and the problems and issues that challange dog owners are infinate in both their nature and severity. What works for one may not for another and unless a dog owner is being outright cruel then they should do what works best for THEIR dog.
On the other hand, I think it would be only fair to require all dog owners to have a shock collar on and give a remote to every neighbor within hearing distance while they are away at work.
I’m kidding. Sort of. But the habitual bored barker does seem like the one good use of – not a shock collar, but one of those vibrating ones.
Hey, I just noticed my post was ambiguous, and it could be taken that the shock collar should be on the owner, not the dog. That would be even better!
I do like dogs. But only when owned by people who have time and space for them.
I like the idea of putting the collar on the owner instead of the dog. I’m also going to pretend that is what you meant the first time. ha-ha.
A barking dog is an unsettled dog. He shouldn’t be punished for feeling scared or for looking for company because he’s missing his people. It’s up to his owners to fix things.
Actually, the shock collar I used for my problem barker didnt have a remote. It was specifically designed to be an anti-bark collar and worked automatically. It has six levels and starts out at the lowest, which is basically a vibration. If the dog continues to bark the zap gets progressively stronger. When the dog doesnt bark for 10 seconds since the last bark it automatically resets to the lowest level. And the safety feature I like is that if the dog barks continuously for 60 seconds (basically barks thru the corrections) it automatically shuts off.
I had tried the other types of collars before getting this one. The collar that just vibrates didnt bother my dog at all and he ignored it. The one that sprays citronella didnt bother him much either, in fact he thought trying the “catch” the spray was a fun game. In my situation for my dog the shock collar was the best choice.
Sorry yankeeatheart, but I don’t think there’s any excuse to use an electric shock on your dog. If he’s a problem barker, then there’s a reason. Find out the reason and solve it, instead of using cruel, short-cuts to fix the problem.
Well that dog training video is pretty strange. Possibly the reason for the collars is to keep the dogs quiet during the sessions?? Ive been at Petsmart when they were doing dog obedience classes and the whole group of dogs was barking so much the instructor could hardly talk. Just a guess though.
On the other hand, I do not believe shock collars are the evil some make them out to be when used properly and with good reason. I have a friend who had a lab/border collie mix who would not stop chasing the horses. This dog had been kicked, stepped on, and nearly had her skull crushed and still would not quit chasing. After wearing a shock collar for less than one day with some well timed zaps via remote control that dog has not chased a horse in over 8 months. Now he just wears the collar as a “reminder” but it has no battery in it.
My own rescue dog, who was a nusience barker and on the verge of being euthed because of it, is now a perfect gentleman in the yard because of a static shock collar. He wore it for only 3 days and doesnt need it anymore. And yes, I tested the collar on maximum level on my own neck (that was quite a sight) and the “shock” was quite annoying but not painful. Properly used, I believe it has a purpose and has saved many a dogs life. Praise, treats and positive reinforcement dont always work.
Back to the pigpen horses, that is just disgusting. AC will have to drag them out of there when their hooves turn to soup…..
Fits what I advise people regarding shock collars or other punishment devices: use them only if someone will otherwise get hurt. Use sparingly and at the first sign of the offending behavior. But… If you are using it to control a dog who is going after another animal or person, for whatever reason, and you are late on the zap, they might think that the other critter is the source of the pain and you may have escalated the problem. I saw a golden retriever turn extremely dog aggressive from a shock collar. But yeah, if I didn’t have mules that take no crap from a dog and dogs that didn’t take the mules “suggestions” to heart, a collar and some fast reflexes would be Plan B. I am very lucky to have a mule that knows who “her dogs” are and will just give them a swat.
Guess what, I don’t consider myself the pack leader. The guy whose work with wolves prompted the whole pack hierarchial theory now says he was wrong. Wolf packs are nothing more than families. The dominant ones are mom and pop. So when I deal with dogs, I put on my “Because I’m the mommy, that’s why” hat. Kinda changes your outlook.
I sure hope they get those horses out before it rains again.
I sure hope they get those horses out before it rains again.
I had never heard of this. I. Am. Sick.
It’s the weirdest thing. My dog, Bear, loved me for almost fourteen years. He did everything I told him to do. If I took him to the park and let him off-leash, I could point to the area I was going to walk next, and he’d run there ahead of me. I did not specifically teach him to do this, it just evolved. One day I pointed, he looked at me, he turned and went. That dog understood me so well it seemed he could darn near read my mind, sometimes.
This miracle of training was achieved by nothing more than working and interacting with him all the time. I made him my best friend, I treated him like it, and he knew it. (If I tried to hug someone else, he’d come up and try to join in by putting his feet on my back, tail wagging. LOL!) He got scolded very occasionally, and rewarded for specific behaviors. But mostly I just showed him what I wanted him to do and he’d do it. I rewarded him almost constantly just for being around me. Of course he wanted to please me. Wouldn’t you want to please someone who treated you like that?
The members of my family have all had dogs like this; I grew up treating dogs like family. I’m not even a huge fan of training methods in general (except for specific behaviors, like house training) unless a need presents itself. You choose a bright dog with whom you’re compatible, and then you spend as much time with it as humanly possible, as part of the family (or the other half of it if you’re single.) Dogs are intuitive pack animals, you don’t have to destroy them to dominate them. Most well-treated dogs will just be happy to be with you.
Obviously some have behavioral problems, or do need a little schooling to get the picture, but traumatizing the animal is not just cruel, it’s counter-intuitive and minimally effective, as has been shown for decades by good trainers. If something is broken, bashing it with a hammer is not the way to fix it!
Why would anyone want a pet with a broken spirit who only does what you want out of fear? Why would you have a dog unless you intend to love it, and have it reciprocate? (Exempting strictly working dogs, but seriously. Shock collars? One can, and should, still have a good relationship with the animal.)
Then again, I wonder these things all the time reading this blog. People who appear to just freaking hate animals sure have a lot of them. It blows the mind.
Sorry. Ignore my infuriated doggy rant, horsey people.
Absolutely fine if you have a well behaved dog. If you have, as I did just the once, a homicidal Dobe, not so easy! Somewhere along the line I had failed to get full respect from this dog, and she was, potentially, dangerous. I have my own land, there was no need for her to see too many people or other dogs, but there is a footpath around the edge and she hurdled the six foot fence one day and nearly ate a Cairn terrier. Then I got the shock collar. I had control, not just when she was beside me, when I could always control her anyway, but when she was up to half a mile away!
I have to point out that I too tried the collar on myself, and it was the unexpectedness of it, not the voltage, that gave you the edge. I have also to point out that there is NO limit on the voltage that you can put in these things, and a lot of the ones sold to train sporting and defence dogs have a MUCH higher jolt going through them. This I did not know until a Police Dog was killed by one, not that far from where I live, so when people decry them as “evil” it could well be that their experience is of the higher voltage collars?
I do not think the dogs look unhappy and I saw all the owners patting stroking and praising at one time or another. As a dog trainer, however, I have to say that I would never, ever recommend that anyone teach a class using these things as norm. In all my years training dogs I have only ever, once, suggested the use of one, and that was with sensible people who I trusted, with a problem that was just beyond them!
Yup, with my dog I also think it was unexpectedness or “surprise” of the shock that really got his attention. It certainly wasnt pain or trauma of any kind. He was barking one second and the next was looking at me with that “what the heck was that” look. He barked once or twice more and quickly figured out that barking meant a zap so he just quit barking. By day three he wasnt barking at all and the collar hasnt been on him since.
Im sure you can get heavy duty ones that do cause pain/damage on the internet but the ones you get at Petsmart or Petco are pretty low voltage and humane. Like I said before, I put it on my own neck to test and it didnt hurt at all and I dont have a nice layer of fur between it and my skin like my dog does.
Wait a second. Why did you have a “homicidal” dog, exactly?
Guard dogs certainly don’t need to be vicious, just good at their job. What was your need, or the world’s need, for a vicious, admittedly dangerous animal that could only be controlled through electroshock? (A device that, by your own admission, can be so powerful as to kill an animal.) What would have happened if she had somehow lost the shock collar or it had not worked, and something had caused her to get away or snap? (This has happened. See my first link.) Who would have been on the receiving end? Vicious animals are unpredictable, as only too many incidents have shown. I can’t imagine having one, but if I did, I can’t imagine allowing it near anything it might endanger without every possible barrier (something that it can’t simply ignore if it so chooses) in place. Ever.
By the way, to you lovers of shock, you know there are alternative collars, do you not? There are a number of other options that have absolutely no risk of pain or dangerous malfunction, but cause the same startle reaction. Shock is not necessary. Some vibrate, some squirt, some emit a sharp sound out of human hearing range. If your claims that only the startle response is required are true, then why did each of you choose something potentially dangerous?
And yes, I said dangerous malfunction. Low-voltage shock collars have seriously injured dogs. Just add moisture. Dew, rain, increased conductivity, burns. They’ve also been known to independently malfunction and deliver too many shocks, and, since many are radio-controlled, they can be influenced by outside devices.
Moreover, shock collars have the potential for negative reinforcement, especially bark-response collars, teaching a dog who fails to get the idea that it must stop its behavior to be aggressive towards whatever’s agitating it.
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/RUFUS.HTM
http://www.answerbag.com/polls/shock-collars-dangerous_1791956
http://www.dogremedies.com/dangers_choke_pinch_shock.html
http://www.lucysdoghouse.net/a970.html
I can find no reasonable need for a shock collar. They are potentially dangerous, they can backfire, there are effective alternatives.
I’m with the anti-shock collar group…and this is why I had a conniption fit when Julie Goodnight actually recommended using one on a horse…a panicky prey animal. Good grief. Yeah that horse won’t (a) hurt itself or (b) become headshy and hard to touch…not at all… *rolling eyes*
Kirri said: ” a homicidal Dobe… Somewhere along the line I had failed to get full respect from this dog, and she was, potentially, dangerous.”
Not vicious that has a specific definition, Kirri said that the dobe ‘tried’ to go after another dog… tried not succeeded. She admitted that she had a failure of training for this guard dog. It could be that the guard dog decided to guard and defend more territory than what the owner had planned.
She used the collar to break the dog out of the “must defend territory” mind set in order to for control. She tested the settings on herself. And she was fully aware that it had to be done because of the potential for damage due to the breed of dog. The dobe almost hurt another dog and it’s owner used acted to ensure that it wouldn’t happen again. It is what you are supposed to do: train the dog. This dog needed a higher level of correction. She had control when the dog was next to her and taught the dog that the control extended to beyond that; not, as you said, “could only be controlled through electroshock.” And she knew the dangers. I reseal my collars every time I change the battery and check the shock before it goes on my dog (who got up to a level 7 in fence training before she realized that stop meant stop. Stubborn poodle.) If the dobe is anything like my poodle, it learned to listen to the voice rather than wait for the shock.
I’m sorry about the rant-esque defense but you took what Kirri wrote and went somewhere else with it. And my father was bitten by a Great Pyrenees that was not safe, had an owner that could not control it and did not release his leg until it passed out. That dog was a vicious dog (had bitten multiple people and animals). It had to be put down at 2 years old, because it had owners that meant well but were dog dumb. So I am in strong favor of dog owners that will do something (choke chain, pinch collar, spray collar or shock collar) to ensure that their dog is not only safe but also not a risk to anyone or anything. These methods certainly are not the first place to go for training they are a means of last resort.
I am prefacing my support of shock with this: they are not a substitute for training, spending time with or fencing a dog.
That said, someone out there may have a dog like my poodle: smart, stubborn and sees a 6′ fence as a challenge rather than a restraint. This poodle goes over, under and through the fence and then comes back to show the others how to escape. I bought 2 collars: an active where I set the shock and triggered it one passive that warned and shocked on auto. I used the active one as a reach out and touch you don’t, ignore me and get away from the fence. Once she ‘got it,’ responded to voice commands rather than work faster to escape, she got the passive collar/ no collar at all.
She, after 3 months of training, can be let outside for an hour with supervision and no collar. If I’m outside for longer then that I put a collar on her at the lowest shock setting. She respects the fence now. I have three other dogs that have never needed this level of correction. And yes, all of the dogs and I take daily walks, have playtime and have done obedience training no problems anywhere except with the poodle and the fence. And no, I have used the collar to correct anything but escape attempts.
It isn’t something I wanted to do, but a shock collar is a whole lot better than getting hit by a car.
Sorry, but i’m going to have to chime in with support of e-collars as well.
They’re not a substitute for responsible ownership, they are a TOOL that can be used in training.
It’s unfortunate that they have a higher rate of misuse, but I’ve seen everything misused, from pinch collars to slip chains to even the famous headcollars that are advertised as being “gentle” and “humane.”
I am fine with people who disagree with them, but if you don’t know how it can be used properly in a balanced training programme, I would ask that you not discredit or drag through the mud the name of those who do train with them, unless you KNOW otherwise. I will admit that there are some SMS trainers out there who get a little happy with the button, and I’m not proud of that at all. THankfully, there are others who own their own franchises who use it a little more sensibly.
When the dog is stimmed by the collar, is he being shocked? Sure, if you want to get technical. But, to put it in terms that people can understand, there’s a pretty large difference between the shock you get from scuffing your feet on the carpet versus that you experience from getting hit by lightning or putting your finger in a socket. And a quality e-collar trainer knows the difference. And a quality e-collar has levels that are so subtle that most people can’t feel them (which is even LIGHTER than the shock you get from scuffing the carpet!). I can’t feel my e-collar until it’s at level 20, and that’s out of 127 levels. No person, trainer or amateur, who cranks it up to the max at first application, deserves accolades from me. The e-collar has evolved immensely from the first model, which was basically “One-stim-shocks-all.” I wouldn’t touch those first models with a 10-foot pole. But you bet that the e-collar I have now is pulled out regularly, if not for my dog (who is already trained to off-leash reliability, even around distractions, due to the effective and humane use of both the pinch and e-collar), but to show people just how wrong they are when they think I am lighting up my dog like a Christmas tree.
I’m sure we all know horse trainers who rip and tear their horse’s mouth with the same bits that are used humanely by others who use them as a tool to create a horse that is calm, responsive and a joy to ride.
I’m sorry that you all feel so strongly against what is a commonly misunderstood training tool, but believe me when I say that they are a very useful tool when used in a humane training program. For those interested in learning more, I suggest checking out Robin McFarlane’s blog The Truth About Shock Collars.
Banning any training tool is counterproductive and unacceptable in a profession that has thrived for thousands of years on the constant addition of knowledge, ideas and tools that have proven their worth, and unfortunately some countries have gone that route. It’s extremely disappointing to those of us who work to disprove knee-jerk emotive responses, such as what I’m reading here, to tools that can be misused by anyone who doesn’t know how to use them.
Educate yourselves, and then form your opinion. SMS is not the be-all end-all of e-collar training, and they have my limited support, but believe me, there are MANY other e-collar trainers out there with whom I would trust my dog a little bit better, such as this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY5C2_Pyqlo
“WHY DO PEOPLE BUY THIS STUFF?”
Because it gives them a way to “train” their dog without having to put forth much effort, time or expense and the pre-packaged instructional course even eliminates the need to you know…think. This is a program for the lazy and careless dog owner. I imagine a lot of the clueless ones get snared too if they don’t know there are many other more humane ways to train.
Shock collars just really need to be outlawed because most of the people who buy them abuse them.
Funny thing is, I’ve had advocates of shock collars say they don’t want to carry around a clicker and treats. Yet they have to carry a controller and replace the batteries on the darn things. I can’t even find replacement batteries locally for mine! Whereas, once my critters know what I want, happy noises and scratches from me is all they need, and I plan to carry my hands wherever I go.
That said, if I had to stop something like jumping over a fence and going after someone, I’d be finding batteries fast!
Thank you so much voices of reason dooflotchie, clarktheshark, and horsesandponies4ever. I truly can’t believe there are advocates for potentially painful or even injurious or deadly devices, devices that have many alternatives including similar but safer devices, commenting and getting likes. My brain just a-sploded. Ouch.
I know I’m an outsider here but I generally think of this community as being one dead-set against foolish, pointless, dangerous, or painful animal-keeping practices. I’m, pardon the pun, utterly shocked.
“Lazy and careless” does not begin to describe the hundreds of hours, the amount of effort and learning (that’s MY OWN learning, mind you) I have put into training my dog.
Perhaps you’re just referring to trainers who use it in such a way that the dog learns the lesson quicker than he otherwise would if he were being lured with treats or “throwing” behaviors in attempts to earn the click?
It should take less than 10 minutes for a dog to learn to walk on a loose leash (that’s LEARN the concept, not “have it down pat in the presence of every distraction possible”). I’m sure that someone who uses an e-collar correctly to demonstrate this concept would be seen as “lazy and careless” because they’re not taking the time to acclimate the dog to a headcollar or take the months necessary to make it stop pawing at its face and finally walk nicely at heel.
Anything that is praised to “work immediately” needs some explanation as to why it does: there is no such thing without suppression, and we all know that suppression without redirection has a good chance of ruining good dogs AND horses. And if we’re going to be talking suppression, we might as well just ban training in general, since it suppresses the natural acts that come with “he’s just being a dog” (what’s so natural about coming on command, or heeling through a large crowd?) and NILIF since it takes away privileges and makes the dog earn its keep through good behavior. Or let’s start banning sterilization, since it suppresses sex drive. Headcollars suppress the body language dogs attain through head carriage and gaze direction, while leashes suppress a dog’s ability to “go say hi” to other dogs–after all, he’s just so friendly and likes to go see everyone! Choke chains suppress the ability to breathe (well, at least that’s how I see it when the dog is straining on the end of a leash), while martingale collars suppress the dog’s ability to escape his bonds and make for freedom.
But let’s just call it “lazy and careless” and jump to assumptions. It’s a lot easier than thinking or, heaven forbid, asking that person who’s holding the remote to explain how they train with it and maybe learning something in the process.
One word. Quick fix. Instead of actually getting to the root of the problem, let’s just shock them into submission. Instead of figuring out why the dog isn’t behaving. Is the dog hyper and so he needs to be taken out on a run before anyone comes over and be taught not to jump on people? Is the fence to low and the dog can easily jump it with ease? Etc. many problems can be figured out and solved that doesn’t involve shock collars. Same thing with horses. I’ve been on horses that have acted up before I figured out they just wanted to take a run in either the arena or round pen before I got on them. Some wouldn’t give to the bit so instead of getting a tiny thin wire bit to MAKE them give I put the in either a bitless or a sidepull and worked with them that way before asking again with a bit. It doesn’t shock me any more like it used to when people take short cuts like this. Sure me taking the humane way maybe longer and or more difficult, but at least no horse is afraid/terrified of me. Same things with my dogs. I have a stupid dog and a smart dog. Guess what the stupid dog learned how to come and sit without me using a shock collar. It’s called HARD WORK and DETERMINATION. Shock collars are inhumane and shouldn’t be used, because well morons who think their just awesome ‘trainers’ get their hands on them and well look at the result. All the idiots are doing is turning their dogs into are very afraid/terrified dogs. Get a clue and stop this ridiculous ‘training’! Bring out the treats/rewards and positive training. The dogs will learn nothing but FEAR with SHOCK COLLARS! *head through desk*
A friend of mine who is in vet school was telling me about a paper they had read about the long term effects of shock collars on dogs. Because they are around the neck, they run directly over the vagus nerve as it travels down into the mediastinum. It is also a pretty superficial nerve in dogs. The study noted arrhythmias and heart abnormalities in dogs subjected to shock collars over the course of their lives.There were also some interesting (pretty famous) cognitive/behavioral learned helplessness studies done with dogs and shocks to the paws. The dogs were trapped in an area with a shock mat on the floor, and after freaking out for about five minutes and trying to find a way out, they would just lay down and accept the painful shocks. The moment where they “give up” is incredibly sad, but poignant. They do have a breaking point. Also, if it’s considered torture to perform this “method” on humans… why is it ok for animals again? If it’s not acceptable for prisoners and terrorists, I’m going to go ahead and say it’s not acceptable for my dog (a law abiding citizen herself), either.
The learned helplessness experiments don’t apply. The whole point of those experiments was giving the shocks for no reason with nothing the dog could do to avoid them or put a stop to them. Quite different from a shock which is in response to a particular behavior.
They do apply when you observe the effects punishment has on learning new behaviors. The animal quits trying because they don’t know what is expected of them but they do know that a wrong guess gets punished. The animal believes it is in a helpless situation, even if the right outcome is glaringly obvious to the trainer. You could call that the definition of stress. Do this long enough and their brains actually shrink and their neurons lose connections. They lose the ability to learn.
Actually, they did those experiments too, and they did not have the results you describe.
Really a shock collar should never be used to teach new behaviors, as others have said. It’s for enforcing behaviors with an animal which deliberately acts up when it knows its too far away to be punished. But… the whole point of the learned helplessness experiments was the CONTRAST with the avoidance experiments they had also done. Dogs quickly learn the right behavior to avoid a shock. They may not be happy, it may be cruel, but they do learn. It is not the same and you are demonstrating that you aren’t familiar with the series of experiments.
You just said that shock collars should never be used to teach new behaviors, and then in the next sentence mentioned that the dog learns to not do the behavior to avoid the shock. Holy contradiction, batman. I will admit that my psychology background is rusty, because I prefer real sciences, but come on. Dig a little deeper than your psych 101 class. If you really think about what Seligman was proposing, you can apply these studies.
Holy Reading Comprehension, Batman!
I was describing the experiments which were performed, in which new behaviors were most certainly taught using shock, not advocating that method. Shock training does NOT create learned helplessness. Learned helplessness is a specific response to shock combined with a lack of options. It does not apply in any way to this discussion.
I think the theory of learned helplessness does apply to this “training” technique. The dog never knows when the shocks are coming, especially at first, and can’t control them. It’s definitely an extrapolation of the theory but if you think about it, many of the same principles apply. Theories like this are not black and white by any means, and are meant to viewed on a continuum.
There are few studies done with e-collars that actually mimic how they are used in the real world, at least compared with those that villify it as a cruel training device.
I suggest you read a well-done critique of a few of those studies, written by Ruth Crisler. The one done on the beagles is particularly eyebrow-raising: that is NOT what I would call science that can be applied to the real world!
And what about those studies that do support the humane use of e-collars? They’re available for the reading, should anyone find it in themselves to actually do a search instead of just quoting popular opinion.
We are not doing elecroshock therapy on dogs like they did to people in the ’60s to relieve mental illness, and those who think that is the case have not even moved themselves out of the Koehler era and simply admitting their ignorance as to how training tools and techniques have (*gasp*) evolved in order to make training easier for both the trainer AND the dog!
It seems as though I’m in the wrong community when it comes to dogs, but strangely enough, when similar ideas are applied to horses (ie humane training devices that can be misused, techniques that involve teaching a horse discipline and respect, etc), it’s ok? Yes, I did read the blog on using e-collars on horses, I’m not ignorant on that…and strangely, I did read some comments that actually seemed to support the idea if it were done humanely and was actually effective for the horse. (After all, if an idea can be effective AND inhumane, or humane BUT ineffective…and in each case, I would argue to maybe take a look at another option of behavioral remediation.)
Right so… you do realize that electroshock therapy is alive and well? And actually is effective? If you are getting your psychiatric information from One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s nest, you might want to pick up a text dated post 1980. We just don’t put people in insulin induced comas to do it anymore. And on another note, you do realize that electroshock therapy and shocking a dog to discourage a behavior are so far from the same playing field that you essentially just picked up a different sport entirely… and sucked at it?
Having a BA in psychology, I actually do realize that EST is still used in some form, thank you very much.
I guess, and perhaps I guessed wrongly, that it appears that most people here are equating the use of any type of electrical stimulation applied in order to communicate, correct or redirect any animal with the high levels of shock that USED to be used, or at least appeared to be used, back in the day. You just might want to ask those people from where they get their information if they are under the assumption that it is a cruel training device.
Then again, with this crowd, perhaps X-rays are still bad, since they were once used to fry womens’ ovaries as a form of sterilization as well as inducing permanent amenorrhea. I’ll opt for the tubal, please.
There’s research out there that’s supposed to show that electrical stimulation can actually have a positive influence on learning, but I have not yet been able to go on a hunt through scholarly journals for the actual article. However, the lack of that one piece of evidence does not yet discredit the studies and papers to which I linked above that show that the use of e-collars CAN be beneficial, as long as the researchers do not get to shock-happy because they assume that that’s the way ALL e-collars were meant to be used and, as such, that’s how 99% of all e-collars are used.
So that whole “sucked at it” thing…was that supposed to be an insult, or were you just trying to set your Strawman ablaze so that I’d be wowed by your lack of knowledge of how a lot of e-collar trainers actually work?
HINT: you’d be surprised, nay–shocked–how many of them use it as redirection and an attention-getter, rather than to “discourage” a behavior, or heaven forbid, “punish” it.
It’s often more the people who know nothing about them who pick them up as a “last resort” in order to punish, and suppress, the misbehavior once and for all. And then it appears as though we’ve all seen the fallout of that.
I refuse to get in a pissing contest over degrees. HINT: I would win. If you have a BA in psych, why are you getting “research” off of random blogs? Those links you posted were beyond useless. What ever happened to peer reviewed, reliable resources? And the “you sucked at” was just an honest observation. Don’t spit pointless rhetoric at me and expect not get an honest response. Finding it hard to sift through that tangential response, I’m really only left with one thought…
Why the hell do people blog? This is just kind of annoying.
I wonder what would happen if all of the people that create this ‘training’ tools would have to put something like that in their packaging for said ‘training’ tool? What would all of the users think about said ‘training’ tool? My guess would be when idiots can be shot to eliminate their stupidity from the gene pool. And when you have to hold a liscence to own any kind of animal and have children. And amatures and ‘trainers’ cannot easily get acess to harsh bits. That’s my guess when all of the manufactures have to put something like that in it. *head desk*
I think shock collars can be useful in certain situations, but I have major misgiving about giving them to the average dog owner. Positive reinforcement should always be used, but there are certain situations (and certain dogs) where it might not be enough. (For example, a dog that loves to run after cars may not stop for treats or toys). In these special situations, there might be a place for shock collars.
Mild shocks are not cruel, or I’m cruel every time I pet my cat during the winter. I’ve never used a shock collar because I don’t feel that I have the skill, but the information I’ve read says that you should use the lowest setting that your dog responds to. In other words, the shock should be unpleasant but not painful (so yeah, if a shock collar is able to kill a dog, that’s definitely abuse). However, if you’re going to use negative reinforcement like a shock collar, you better have amazing timing, so I don’t think they should be encouraged as a training solution for most people. Besides, most of the time there are better solutions (ex: if your dog chases cars, simply keep them on a leash).
This is a random pet peeve of mine… but technically, shock collars are positive reinforcement. I think the positive/negative reinforcement concept is the single most misused, misunderstood thing out there. Any time you are adding a stimulus to either promote or prevent a behavior, it is positive reinforcement. Here, you are adding a shock to deter a behavior, so it is positive reinforcement. Giving a treat for doing a trick would also be positive reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is removing a stimulus in response to a behavior to either promote or deter it. So taking away the TV because your kid broke curfew is negative reinforcement. Taking off a choke collar because your dog stopped pulling would also be negative reinforcement. It’s not the niceness/meanness of the act that is positive or negative, it’s whether are you are adding or removing a stimulus.
I did not watch the video because my internet connection is too slow. However, I have to stay, not all shock collars or choke chains on dogs are cruel and inhumane. As with any training device, if it is properly used, it can be a safe and effective tool. My ACD “alerts” me to any noise – cat outside, squirrel on the fence, person walking by. This is fine when she is in the house with me since it is her job and I let her do it. But when I let her out, regardless of the hour, she announces herself to the neighborhood by barking at every corner of the yard. I use a bark collar on her (as an occasional reminder only now) when she is outside the house alone when we are in the city (about 4 days per week). She does her same routine, but quietly. She knows exactly what the collar is, what it does and how to avoid any discomfort. It hasn’t had a battery in it in years. It isn’t hurting her, and it helps maintain a good relationship with my neighbors.
As for the horses, if the AC can’t take the horses away when they are living in filthy and deplorable conditions such as this, at what point CAN they take them away?
Oy. Dog owners who use shock collars are the equivalent of horse trainers who just go for the harshest, meanest bit and the biggest set of spurs because they didn’t put any time into addressing underlying issues, taking small steps in training, and learning that “miracle cures” like shock collars and extreme bits are hardly miracles or cures.
As a dog trainer, I’ve had people come to me with shattered or crazed dogs because they used a shock collar. The best one was “I only used it because I wanted him to calm down!”. Gee… did you ever consider taking him for a walk? Giving him a treat to entertain him? How about giving him some mental stimulation through positive training? “Yah, I tried training, but that didn’t work! My dog’s different – he’s way worse than other dogs!” … To me that usually means that they’re timing was off, they weren’t consistent, or they didn’t get instant results so they figured it didn’t work.
It’s bad enough when professionals use shock collars (or other cruel methods). Even then, you stare at them at shows because you know who they are when they go to send their dog away to retrieve in a stressful setting like a show and the dog practically has a meltdown. You can teach a dog behaviors (or in my opinion, you can squash behaviors) with shock collars or being rough with your dog, but you simply can’t get a “working” dog out of it. In order to have a dog that flies through an agility course, perks up at the prospect of of an obedience trial, eagerly follows the scent of a missing person, or herds goats around with enthusiasm, you NEED to have a confident, happy, and secure dog. Shock collars make for insecure dogs. Lots of people like that in a dog. Constant fear of being hurt makes them all sorts of “loyal”. It’s amazing how well we’ve bred them to keep running to us for comfort!
When it comes to inexperienced people, many dogs just get wrecked with shock collars. These people have no training experience and horrible timing (which is why positive training didn’t work for them in the first place). The dogs get irritable and snappy (with good reason) and they often end up just randomly “spazzing out”.
I’m sure you can all see the parallels to the horse world. We need to be calm and patient and FIRM but not hurtful to our animals.
Off of that tangent… How lazy are the law enforcement officials to figure that that situation is not worth their effort?? That poor horse has a pile of mud in his tail. How awful
I’m on the bandwagon for needing a license to own animals… In the least, we should enforce a license for people who chose to breed and not get their animals fixed.
Hey guys, I am surprised this got so many people talking, but I loved reading all of the replies. I am not anti-shock collar, as I do have one myself. It is only one that is automatic for barking dogs, because we had a Labrador who would bark non stop when left alone, and the neighbors were threatening to call animal control. We tried the citronella collars, but after a few months she didn’t mind them anymore.
I was just surprised to see the dogs in the videos that they have worked with for years, and see that they are STILL using the same collars on them.
and yes, here is their website, where they sell all of their equipment -__-
http://www.sitmeanssit.com/
Some of their “daily videos” show dogs sporting these remote shock collars as they are told to jump up on and balance on fire hydrants, road block poles, and other things that they could easily break their necks off of. But if they don’t, they will be shocked. Other videos show a 4 year old “training” one of the dogs that is owned by one of the trainers. The dog knows what it is doing, obviously, but I was shocked to see the 4 year old holding the remote as he told the dog what to do. HOW IS A 4 YEAR OLD GOING TO UNDERSTAND WHEN TO DELIVER A SHOCK??
Anyways, thanks for all of your replies! Just got back from a dog show, same again tomorrow! Thank goodness we have a later ring time tomorrow… sheesh.
As others have said, shock collars are a TOOL that can be either used or abused. They are not for every trainer or every dog, but I would rather see a dog under the control of a PROPERLY AND HUMANELY USED shock collar than losing its mind or its life in a shelter. The reality of dog overpopulation in much of the U.S. will quite frankly melt your brain, and behavior issues are one of the top reasons dogs are given up or abandoned. I promise you that a properly timed, mild shock once in a while to correct a problem behavior such as excessive barking (after the failure of other training, and with supplemental “positive motivation” training) is a far, far better fate than the stress of shelter surrender and living. As long as the tool is not being ABUSED (the animal is not in pain, and the tool is not used excessively), if it keeps a dog happy and alive and in a home where it’s loved, I’m ok with it.
Also, just because YOUR dog responds to X training method doesn’t mean it works for everyone. Sure, there are plenty of lazy owners out there who just want to electrocute their dogs into submission, and I hate them as much as the next dog lover. But until you own an animal with a truly refractory behavior problem, and have to “suck it up and do the work” yourself, don’t judge the situations of others with blanket statements about how EVIL and LAZY people who use shock collars are. It’s just not true in many cases, and it’s terribly unfair to people who HAVE tried everything with their dogs and find that a shock collar is the only thing that helps a problem behavior. I’ve seen it happen… many times.
I would also like to point out that this blog has previously discussed the difference between tool use and abuse in horses- here for example: http://fuglyblog.com/?p=834.
Thanks! I always like to read calm posts that attempt to understand both viewpoints.
Shock collars a tool that are VERY polarizing. Plus, very few “lay-people” use them properly in dog land, and many more intentionally ABUSE them, so it’s hard to have a reasonable discussion about them.
I don’t think shock collars are something most dogs need or should have used on them. However, as with many “harsh” tools in the horse world, these can be very useful in the right hands and extremely dangerous in the wrong hands. Also, there are MANY collars out there that even at the highest setting aren’t all that strong and others that are downright appalling at their highest setting. In this case, I think the knee jerk reaction “ALL SHOCK COLLARS ARE ABUSIVE AND PEOPLE WHO USE THEM ARE THE LOWEST FORM OF SCUM” is a overly emotional and does not take into account special cases and educated handlers.
Granted, I think most dogs who exhibit bad behavior have a reason when they first learn the behavior (not enough exercise, attention, training, etc) though it can become a habit even once that reason is removed, so I don’t think it’s the first or even third or fourth thing that should be tried when working to adjust a dog’s barking behavior or any behavior.
I guess in my mind, a shock collar is like using draw reins in the horse world: I don’t like draw reins and currently don’t even own a pair. However, there have been a couple of horses I’ve worked with that I found them to be very useful on for a short time during retraining. In general, I find people misuse them as a tool, and I find that people who use them frequently use them as a short cut. Still, they can be useful for certain individuals.
In the dressage world, everyone is very quick to judge all “gadgets” as quick fixes, and I usually agree. However, the mass dressing down that online dressage “trainers” like to give to anyone who dares use a gadget can be a bit snooty and unnecessary, especially since many of these same people use other techniques that I would consider a short cut, perhaps just without the help of a gadget.
Anyway, I think some tools that have the potential to be quite harsh can still be useful from time to time. In general, I’m in the camp that feels while these tools may be useful to have in your bag of tricks, they should be used sparingly. I don’t see the need to be quite so harsh on those that are “pro” shock collars, as not all of these people are uneducated lazy dimwits, and most are more “non-anti” shock collars than “pro.” You can think something should be allowed without also thinking that thing should be used as often as possible under any and all circumstances.
As always, few things are black and white – there are many many shades of grey.
I’m sorry but the only thing that comes to mind is: W T F ? W T F ? W T F ? W T F ?
Since when was starvation the only sign of neglect ?
Please someone over there try and get these poor creatures onto some dry land with safe fences and string up the cretinous asshat responsible.
Agreed. Needless to say I would have gone to the media and have them ask AC why the horses have yet to be siezed. Common sense would indicate that these owners are either 1. Do not care. 2. Ignorant/arrogant. 3. Do not have the money to take care of the situation. 4. Are lazy asshats that have all the resources but choose nothing to do about it. Because that is what the pictures indicate to me. It’s sad really it is. Why can’t they just up and disappear from the owners who have no intention to clean it up. I mean it has been YEAR. How much time do they think that they would get?
Those pictures are disgusting! It constantly astounds me that people can leave animals in those conditions. I’m confused as to how animal cruelty is dealt with in the USA. Is it totally up to the local authorities?
In Australia we have the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA) which is a charity but I think they get some Govt funding. If I see a case of abuse anywhere in my travels, I just give them a call and they go out and act upon it. They have the authority to get the police involved to seize animals if they are too badly treated, although a lot of their work is about educating owners. They also provide feedback on cases you have rung in, which is great. I think the separation from local government and the potential for conflict of interest between council staff and friends or family this entails possibly resolves some of the issues you have raised about the good old boys network in some cases you have talked about.
The RSPCA get no government funding at all, they are a charity. They also, the last time I could be bothered to look, had over £72,000,000. Yes, SEVENTY TWO MILLION pounds, in the bank, yet they are constantly begging for more. Every single RSPCA shelter relies on it’s own funding, they do not get any from HQ (which sort of begs the question, “what are they using the seventy two million for- answer, their wages!”) so if they seize a hundred horses, none of that banked money will be given to them to help pay for the horses, they have to get funding for themselves. I hate the RSPCA with a loathing deep and true- they are charlatans. At Ground Zero you have the salt of the earth, working their butts off to help the animals as much as they can. At the top you have the equivalent of bottom feeders, only these are “Cream Skimmers” taking everything they can get, awarding themselves nice big, fat, bonuses out of the money they get left to them by dotty old women.
OK, sorry about that, rant over.
Do NOT support the RSPCA, except at grass roots level, PLEASE, they are NOT nice people.
These poor creatures made the local news… Watch them try and wade through that slop. Good for the rescue for standing up and calling out Animal Control. There is no excuse for THAT.
Oops… Guess it helps if you attach the link. http://www.news10.net/news/story.aspx?storyid=120099&catid=2
Wow, I think the worst part of the video was learning that the horses HAVE to wade through the absolute worst of the soup – belly deep – to get to the water tank.
Despicable. Why he wouldn’t let those horses go to the rescue is beyond me. Absolutely selfish. Especially considering they’ve been there a YEAR.
California can’t be bothered (OBVIOUSLY) because they are to far in debt to help humans, so it is evident that horses have no chance at all. I am totally surprised those animals managed to live this past year! My god, THRUSH must be horrific for them!!! What a horrid existence, and that sorry ass of an owner should be made to live like that to!!! Looks like the Humane Society officers of Miama Dade counties in Florida should be given this case. THEY don’t give “extra” days to owners to change a situation that is THIS critical!!!! Hanging would be WAY to good!!!!
I can’t believe that they gave this person until February! Do they have any idea what the state of that stallions feet are in right now???? They can’t even fucking see. Why do they even give someone a chance in a situation like that? It’s obvious that it was their permanent solution to keeping their horses. SHEESH. They could have at least taken them and put them down if they couldn’t do anything else. And a rescue that was willing to help. This is crazy. Who ever this person is, they can throw all the good food in the world at those horses and it’s not going to help them…their living conditions alone are enough to drag any animal down. Although I doubt they are getting much food thrown at them. This reminds me of Argus from http://savingargus.blogspot.com/
OMGoodness! Those poor horses. I was watching one of my mares eat her grain this morning (waiting for her to finish so I could put her out and go get ready for work) and as I was watching the cute little way she licked and slurped up the last bits of grain with her cute little lips I was thinking, how could anyone be so cruel to something so cute? I love all of my horses so much and even though I don’t need five, I can’t sell any of them in these shaky economic times out of concern for their futures. I sold a mare and due to circumstances (every person that bought her, bought her as a trail horse and decided they wanted to show), she ended up going to three different homes in six months. I have kept track of her and even though I don’t want her back, I would take her back if the owners couldn’t find a home for her. She is a registered Paint and the APHA does not allow the owner to put their permanent contact info on the papers like AQHA does. I called the APHA and they told me I have to bring it up to the local/regional reps. Apparently APHA does not propose any rules or changes, they have to come from the membership. To me, that is good and bad. Anyways, it makes me sick to see all of the rampant neglect and abuse of animals that goes on right here in our country.
Hi Spazzmle,
I’m surprised you didn’t realize immediately that “Sit Means Sit” is an all-shock collar all-the-time facility. If you look at their videos, they even shock the dog when he’s doing things the right way, to “prove” that the shock doesn’t hurt much and doesn’t interrupt behavior. Ummmm… if it doesn’t influence behavior, why use it?!
For those that don’t realize it, dog training was typically food-based and positive for hundreds of years leading up to WWI. In WWI, they needed tons of dogs and mules ASAP for the war effort, and in an effort to train them faster, went to punishment-based methods. This continued into WWII. Then the retired WWII K-9 trainers retired from service and began opening training facilities for both the police and the general public. So from about 1945-1995, virtually all community dog training was taught by these K-9 guys or one of their proteges.
In 1977, at the age of 12, I joined the local obedience club. We were taught that the dog was always trying to get the upper hand, and that he was “belligerant” and basically evil. The first day of teaching sit, we were supposed to pop the leash and scream “SIT!” If the dog didn’t sit, we had to pick them up entirely off the ground and hang them by their choke collars, swinging them until nearly unconscious. When we let them go, we then had to do the “alpha wolf rollover,” grabbing them by the scruff of the neck while on their backs. If the dog snapped or bit, they were considered “aggressive” and kicked out of class. I had a very shy 6 mos. Springer Spaniel, and we were kicked out around week 6 when he growled at an instructor who treated him this way.
This punishment-based, choke-collar-based method continued through the mid-90′s (occasionally adding a treat reward, but continuing to use leash pops), when clicker training came along. About 1/3 of us converted to positive clicker training… 1/3 stayed with choke collars and ear pinches… and 1/3 went to “high tech choke collars,” in the form of the electric shock collar. Mostly field trainers and Schutzhund trainers were the ones that moved to e-collars.
From what I know, none of the Sit Means Sit instructors or students compete in obedience or agility or have a single title in any sport. Conversely, tons of clicker trained dogs have gone on to stellar obedience and agility competition careers, the world agility team, etc. Why would people go to Sit Means Sit then?
Here’s my guess:
Positive training: Information is freely given, and nearly all instructors and users are female. Clicker trainers often volunteer their time and money teaching shelter volunteers, giving free advice on training forums, training adoptable dogs for free, and sharing their years of experience through free videos. (I HIGHLY recommend the Kikopup channel on YouTube). Clicker trainers often compete at sanctioned events–sometimes winning, sometimes losing. Their training results are available on public view.
Electric shock collar training: Information is kept as a state secret except for people who pay through the nose to attend seminars. Always taught in for-profit $$$ training centers. Often, customers don’t get to see the training in action, but send their dog and come pick it up after training. Instructors never/seldom compete at sanctioned events. Instead, they only show videos of their dogs doing things 100% correctly. So naive people seeing these videos assume that these dogs are perfect, whereas the positively-trained dogs competing in real life sometimes actually make mistakes.
Anyway, knowing the psychology of people, I know there is a big percentage of people who will prefer the Sit Means Sit program because 1) the instructors are all men (a lot of naive pet owners probably figure dog training is male-dominated, whereas in reality men make up only 5-10% of dog sports competitors), 2) they act 100% confident in their method (“train our way and you will ALWAYS achieve perfection), 3) they charge a lot of money, so the training must be “valuable.” (As opposed to freely-available positive training info, 4) they will do all the work and give you a trained dog, whereas positive trainers will teach you to train your own dog.
By the way, I’m not even against shock collars. I had an invisible fence in my front acreage so my predatory Jack Russell could accompany me on chores without running into the street. And I’ve used them for a student dog that was chasing and hamstringing horses. I also approve of their use for rattlesnake avoidance training. But I totally do NOT approve of using them for training obedience commands. And being one of the people giving away free and science-based training information, I resent these clowns making a huge profit on the needless suffering of the dogs they train.
(P.S. By the way guys, my cat will appear on “Turkey’s Got Talent” tomorrow. Last year, I made it to the semi-finals with my dog and parrot.)
Not sure where you have been living but I came into this world a few years ahead of you and I can tell you, you are way off mark with all this “black and white/good and bad” stuff. Dog training was most certainly NOT reward based up to WW1, not sure where you got that idea but it was most certainly not, as I did, from someone who actually lived through that war! Nor is it actually possible to train Mules with cruelty. Cruel punishments were used, it is true, but they did not work. My Uncle wrangled mules during the Boer War and he spoke of a wrangler lighting a fire under a mule to get a sulled one to stand up. Did not work. In the end the mule talk the wranglers to just wait them out, they got up in their own time a lot quicker if you just left them alone! They taught the men to load properly, too, as if they loaded unevenly the mule would not move. Dogs are the same, there is a real limit to what you can teach through cruelty and, contrary to popular and persistent belief you cannot teach a dog to be vicious through beating it! This belief has been around since the time of the Greek Democracy- Xenophon was unusual for teaching that spurs and harsh bits were not the way to train, and neither was beating a dog- that is four hundred years BC, not the first world war. It is rubbish like this that gets people onto fashionable babble like our friend Cesar!
Dog training is a fine balance between force and love, the dog must respect you or it cannot be trained, but if it fears you it will not learn.
I have NO idea why anyone would subscribe to a dog training method as whacked out and potentially extreme as this one, btw, I have been training dogs for over 25 years (professionally as opposed to my own pets) and I have resorted to using one TWICE. Once for myself and once only for an extreme case with people I trusted- and it worked, and once the problem was solved they sold the collar.
But I can do without the psychobabble about how mistreating animals started- it started the day after a caveman took in a puppy!
Kirri,
Positive training was around during the time of Xenophon (whose book I’ve read) all the way through Victorian literature. Everything from Sherlock Holmes stories to Three Men in a Boat show dogs being trained with food. Here’s an interview with a Victorian-era cat trainer who sounds like any positive trainer today: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9A03EEDD153AE033A25753C2A9669D94699FD7CF. By the time of the Lad a Dog books (WWI era), dog training was going into punishment territory. By the 1970s, punishment was in extreme vogue, from “How to Be Your Dog’s Best Friend” (the alpha wolf rollover) to Winnie Strickland to “Towards the Ph.D. for Dogs,” where you had to jerk your dog with a pully to drag him out to the thing you wanted him to fetch. And then Volhard, with explicit instructions in his books that involved beating dogs with ones fists and slamming the dog harshly to the ground as steps in training advanced obedience exercises. However, I do agree that there were long periods in between Xenophon and the Victorian era that were similar dark days for critters… as there still are, given the photos in today’s blog.
In regard to how I know about mules, I’m from the possibly biggest mule producing state of all time, Missouri. In WWI, just one Missouri dealer sold 350,000 mules to the UK for the war effort (http://www.cvm.missouri.edu/org/muleclub/history.html). I’ve read a book about those mules. They had to be “broke” and trained to haul or ride in a matter of a day or two each before they were put on a train and later a ship. You bet, they used punishment based training to accomplish this.
A mule successfully trained using punishment??? Now that I’d like to see. A mule’s response to punishment is usually to punish right back, so I can’t see how that would get you anywhere when trying to break one in a couple of days.
Now, mules respond wonderfully to negative reinforcement, and are smart enough that I could see them picking up most tasks in 2 or 3 days max with a skilled trainer.
Negative reinforcement, however, has absolutely nothing to do with punishment, which is actually a type of positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement comes in two forms: praise (aka clicker training, treat training, use of voice praise) and punishment (beating, shock collars, etc). Dogs are most easily taught by positive reinforcement of any kind. When teaching any equine, but ESPECIALLY a mule, positive reinforcement isn’t going to get you very far (except for using clicker training to teach something like a cute trick). Equines, as a group, are much more easily taught by negative reinforcement. If you’re wondering what constitutes negative reinforcement that isn’t punishment, please look it up, because as a trainer of any animal, that term should really be something you know.
Gee, does this begin to sound like some of the Natural Horsemanship trainers out there? Not all, but a select few who are known to a lot of people?
Those horses look like they are actually very thin underneath a heavy filthy winter coat. When they shed out I bet they are going to look like skeletons.
As OT as to be in outer space, but this is marvelous!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-HUFPO-Bek
LOL awesome.
Then there’s this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNPOdffkkLo
THAT takes the carrot!!!
no, fugs, it doesn’t look fed to me either. i actually gasped out loud when i scrolled down and saw the pictures. i am really surprised these animals are still alive standing in that filth. one little scratch or opening in their skin would let in all the pathogens breeding in that slop. and you can see ribs and back bone under that long coat. just how skinny is that horse? that, plus the huge worm belly. poor guy. ac should be brought up on charges for neglecting this case.
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ceh/docs/special/pubs-HorseCareStandards-bkm-sec.pdf
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu
Thanks for the link.
I’d like to post this in every boarding barn I’ve been in. All of them have water, but none seem to know how to turn it on.
BWAHAHA! The water bullshit is my pet peeve. I am so lucky to have my own farm now so there is NEVER a water problem (even when the power was off for 3 days). Madam Fugly has a picture of the water supply in a paddock where I had boarded prior to buying the farm. It was freaking insane.
Oh, Fugs. How could you wreck my morning like this??? I nearly cried when I saw those poor, poor horses in such a place. God only knows I do everything (and I mean literally everything) to keep my horses feet out of the muck. But how can people look at this situation and not see any thing wrong???? I went to the website and sent a message linking them to this page so they can see what I saw. I told them they needed to address this ASAP! Those poor, poor horses!
I wish I could help with those dogs but it is not to be…I live on a cubicle. I often wonder about my own health and homes for my critters as I age so have made arrangements to have them rehomed if something should ever happen. Best of luck to their owner. I know it’s never a good thing when it gets to this point but hope she doesn’t give up without trying everything under the sun…homeopathic remedies do work.
I love the rescue and looks like he is doing wonderfully. Don’t have a clue who he is. Alzheimers in progress…
Imagine a new born foal being born into that sewer!!! The owner would litterly have to feel around in the slop with their hands to find it. I knew a lady who lost a foal because it was foaled into a small puddle of water in the pasture and it inhaled some of the liquid and died from pneumonia. Imagine a new born opening its eyes and mouth for the first time UNDER all that slop. I am in a tizzy if my mud gets hoof deep. I haven’t even seen mud this bad on a construction site. I’ve seen horses removed from wet pastures FAR better than this one because they said the living conditions were unsuitable. Whoever said these were acceptable, should live there for a week and see if they change their minds. Imagine the thrush, mud fever, and worms that must be under all that mud. Poor poor things. I’d be taking my bolt cutters and helping the poor things escape if I lived close to them. Imagine living like that within sight of green grass and dry ground. Pitiful. Just pitiful. Someone needs to keep screaming until something is done for these horses! I am livid.
Well, with mud that damned deep, who’s to say there aren’t any foals in there? Who could ever find them without a backhoe or front loader?
Horrifying but correct. I’m scared they WILL find something when they finally get on the property.
Years ago I volunteered at a “rescue” in Idaho called Orpahn Acres. The guy who owned the place had over 40 horses and was trying to care for everyone by himself. He had “rescued” two pregnant arab mares, a stallion, and the mares’ two wild two-year old fillies (with halters imbedded in their faces) from a friend of his. The first mare foaled in the mud in the pasture early in the spring. The colt was found dead – not sure if he drowned or died from hypothermia. So sad.
Oh my Gosh. How can any one not see these animals and thier living conditions and NOT say they need rescuing? How deplorable. The first pic the poor stallion has his tongue sticking out like he’s saying “gag me my pen is a pig sty”. I just dont have the words to explain how fell when I see such poor animals being kept like this. Mud is one thing but that is swill the poor horse is standing in. His legs and feet must be scalded royaly considering he has to poop and pee in that mess. Its a friggin Cess pool for crying out loud. WTF is wrong with ppl./?
OMG!! Their hooves are going to be absolutely rotted off. I cannot imagine where one would start to put their frogs and soles back together. I’m no farrier but I bet even those who are would have trouble with what lies beneath that mud. Will watch for the update for where they are located. Seriously, we need to start a phone call, email, whatever campaign to get those horses removed. It looks like if they were to lay down, they’d drown!
Your blog really shows some situations I cannot imagine. Thanx!
I wanted to add, that horse from Enumclaw looks nice from what I can see from the photo. I cant watch the video because it takes forever and a day to load on my computer. Its a shame he ended up there at the auction house.
With low prices, anyone with the cash can take home a mismatched group of mares and a stallion and call themselves breeders. Sometimes I think slaughter is not the worst thing that can happen to horses. It will be interesting to here what these people planned to do with these horses and how they will try to justify the conditions they are kept in. I’d be calling the newspapers/news crew out there.
OH MY….. I don’t…. have words for this… What a mess!!!!! It should be made legal for anyone to remove animals from abusive / neglectful situations given proper proof to authorities. They look hungry, wormy and I don’t know if it’s just the clusters of mud, but their legs look either swolen or infected (probably both with all that manure). What kind of fence / facility is that!?!?!?
If the person is breeding, where do the mares foal?? In that crap?? How do they eat if they are fed in this kind of mud… it’s just asking for sand colic (I’m not even sure if there is even enough sand in there to do that). This person needs to be put in those conditions to see how it feels.
I’m just at a loss for words… If there is too much mud outside, either move your horses to dryer pastures or put them inside… although I doubt this person has either of those… if that is the case, then PLEASE, for the sake of everyone who cares about your horses (except you, obviously), don’t ever own anything living!
OMG that is horrible. When I saw the first pic I wondered, Where are the rest of his legs?” Oh, yeah, in the mud of course. It is sickening. Reminds me of how Dean Solomon had horses living (multiply by 9 though)…she had a stud living in a dog run and over 90 horses living in mud.
The horses in the photos DO NOT look Ok. Even through all the caked on mud you can see all the ribs. They are very thin and AC should be able to take action based on that alone. And what is hanging from the horse’s tail in the last photo? Is that a mud ball or a tail bag?
Fugly, you know how some pics hit you harder than others, for no real rational reason? These pics hit me hard. That’s just such an abhorrent quality of life for these horses. And I know you feature horses with horrible quality of life all the time, it’s just – I don’t know. Something about the expression on that bay’s face.
If you find out who we can contact to raise some noise please update this story with the info!
I’m with you. Found these photos very, very, hard to look at, worse than others we’ve had on here. I think it’s because of the incredible frustration I feel? The little bay mare’s expression is SO sweet and I just have mental images of ripping open the fence and telling her and the others to RUN. Maybe it’s because it would be such a simple thing to fix, just put them on dry freaking ground for God’s sake and they would already be 1,ooo% better off (but still starving and full of worms – you can tell that right through the matted hair).
That is just repulsive. How can anyone in a healthy state of mind think that is OK?? I say a bit of Roman Law justice is in order. Let the OWNERS live int hat filth for a while and see how they survive even if they are being fed. A-holes.
Dog Kennel? The poor thing is getting use to what a double decker feels like. There is no room to stand up! I guess if we need a positive, he could be breeding the mares? Still horrible!
I would love to guess too, but I know who that lovely boy is! I hope he finds a forever home
Wow… they say the owner is FEEDING them??? In the second picture, even WITH the terrible shaggy thick coat you can CLEARLY see its’ ribs!
This is obviously a case where all those horses should be seized immediately. Absolutely insane.
I do know that the SPCA is often more willing to seize animals if they have a place to put them (without cost to the SPCA). Sometimes, even if it means there’s no charges, I think it’s better to just get the animals out of there and get them the proper care needed. (Unfortunately, without charges the perpetrators often just get more animals and it starts up all over again.)
I have to wonder, are they hoarders or do they consider themselves “breeders” because they have a stallion?
It would take a truckload of hay to replace the calories burned to stay warm wallowing in cold mud!
This makes me sick. What a bunch of scum. I hope you find out names.
The part about the dogs made me cry
Since when is being fed the ONLY criteria for keeping horses or any other animal for that matter? How can anything stay healthy in THAT mess? Living in the PNW there is always mud to deal with at the barn in the winter/spring months. I thought it was getting bad when their hooves were muddy…..this crap is crazy. And the fencing……WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE??? Please let us know who to call or write about this insanity. Those horses need to get out of that chaos NOW!
OT: Fugs, you often speak of checking people out well before selling/rehoming a horse. Do you have some good suggestions on what and how to check out someone not well-known to you who is looking to buy your horse? (Or did I miss that discussion?)
OMG! We too, have some mud problems. We’re slowly trying to rectify this as money allows, but holy crap! That is absolutley horrific..up to thier knees in mud? And that one picture with the huge mud clump on the poor horses tail..just awful. The place looks like a junkyard, with anything that will act like a barrier thrown haphazardly together for fencing. And those horses might have some food (looks like some hay strewn around in the last picture), but if you can see ribs through a fuzzy winter coat, buddy, you ain’t feeding enough!
OMG If I saw horses in this condition I would give them a day to clean it up, not a MONTH! Sick. Shame on AC there, they give all humane law enforcement a bad name.
As far as the dog training, any trainer that needs to use anything with metal on it to train a dog is not a trainer, but an abuser. I have seen a local dog training class where they have pinch collars on Min Pins and mini doxies for God’s sake. They put them on every dog there. Nothing but incompetence and cruelty.
I would LOVE to see what plucky little ponies these guys could be with proper nutrition, hoof care, and a bit of TLC. I bet they’d make some little kid very happy.
Has any guessed the horse yet? Is it Sunny? I read all about him on the Auction Horse website. Seems there is quite a buzz about him and his club foot. I hope he finds a home! He is definitely a tall one!
Is there an AC contact where we can call and complain or do something to change their minds….
Here is the link to a story in which the owner was interviewed:
http://www.news10.net/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=120099&catid=2
If what he says is true and if the county will not sieze the horses perhaps Raquelle can assist the owner in moving the horses (to affordable boarding) and getting them evaluated, and start them back onto a normal care regimen. He claims to have owned some for over 20 years. If true it is a sad story. A grant or assistance to buy him time to place them if he cannot care for them would be good.
If he has not had the AC there before and had warnings, that may need to be the next step. Ghastly as this looks to most horsemen, I am not sure it would rise to the level of siezure here (and we have good laws and enforcement). Minimal care standards for horses which are legally livestock are often vague. Mud is generally not addressed no matter how deep
, neither is fencing (altho some areas may have mandates for stallion fencing). Shelter is often not required, although most states mandate provision of food and water, adequacy of that is subject to interpretation (of AC and veterinarians).
My god, that’s terrible. And this speaking from someone who has to trek through mud on a regular basis during spring and fall to get to horses, so I’m certainly no stranger to it.
It does get quite muddy where I ride during the spring because of the snow melt, and during the fall because of excess rain. It doesn’t help that there’s an underground spring running under two of the paddocks, which nobody knew about until recently, and explains a LOT actually. Trees have been strategically planted to hopefully reduce the problem.
ANYWAY… despite this, and the fact that the muddy spots are often mid-calf deep (on me, and I’m short) the horses can at least get away from the mud, the whole bloody paddock isn’t muddy. Just the high-traffic area in front of the gates, and the area above the spring.
God, if it got like this… I don’t even know how you’d clean up that much mud, let alone the crappy “facilities.”
Wow, I’ve been standing in the window watching our horses romp around and playing in the snow this morning they’re pleased with the warm weather I think. Then I see that poor soul trapped in a muddy hell hole. I hope they get all the horses out of that place, keep us updated on this one please.
On the shock collars everyone’s mentioned above. We had a desperate case of a basset hound with an OCD barking problem that we ended up using a “no barking collar” on. He would bay continuously for up to 8 hours at a time only stoping to breath… It did break him out of his cycle, but honestly I tried it on myself and I’d never ever recomend using one unless you were “at the end of the road” desperate. They hurt and they’re awful. We were his last hope, his fourth home and the people before us had saved him from being shot by his original owners… He turned out to be an amasing dog though and I am glad we didn’t give up.
Oy! The dog trainers are getting to be worse than the darn horse trainers. I have a friend with a Malamute/husky/wolf hybrid (I am NOT a fan of breeding dogs to wolves, he was a rescue). Anyway, this dog pulls when walking, of course he pulls, he’s a sled dog, he will ALWAYS pull, he was BRED to PULL. I told my friend to get some roller blades and a harness and hitch up and go!!! Anyway, my friend calls a local dog trainer who advises him to use a “Gentle Leader” – gak…which, certainly humane, I really don’t think dogs appreciate the halter thing at all, I put one on my border collie & she just hung her head in shame and spent the rest of the time removing it from her face. Then I realized she’s a border collie, not a lab, shepherd or retreiver, so she really doesn’t need to walk with me on a heel. We hike, if I need to take her downtown, I put a harness on her and she does fine. Trainers need to realize that not every dog or breed needs to SIT, HEEL, STAY!!! I prefer more utility commands such as Leave it, Lets go, Off, move, back, go to your bed, COOKIES (that’s my COME or you will die command).
I am really glad to read this. My beautiful Springer and I would have washed out of traditional obedience training. That dog wants nothing to do with heeling, but she will walk very nicely, without pulling, FIVE FEET IN FRONT OF ME. I know that’s “wrong” but it works for us and I have tried to dampen my guilt about it. I’m glad that someone else believes working with the dog to where everyone is comfortable is better than forcing a non-critical issue.
By the way, “MOVE” is probably the second-best command we taught her. Useful in all kinds of situations! What’s the best? “Hurry Up.” This means go poop, and man, does it ever work (generally the deed is done in under a minute). Very handy when it’s pouring rain or you’re in a hurry to get to work. I do feel a bit sorry for her when I have to employ this (not often), as I know she’d much rather spend five or ten minutes sniffing around for just the right spot, but just goes to show you that yes, their bowels can be moved faster if they’re inclined.
HAHA. My dog knows “hurry up” as well. Another one I use is “right there”. Combine the two… “hurry up… right there” and you’ll see what I mean.
I too use “move”. Another great one is “quit”. “Quit” is a general term for “stop doing whatever it is you’re doing”. No matter what the dog is doing, “quit” in a sharp tone works every time.
I use some of these on my horses as well!!
Silly, when I’m getting angry, I’ll say “seriously!!” and they seem to know that one too.
And the funniest thing? I use “One, two, three” on the dogs (haven’t started with the horses yet). My little guy, Buddy, is a royal pain in the ass. So I’ll tell him something, anything, and if he doesn’t do it on the first tell, I just look at him and say “ONE”. Nine times out of ten he’ll do whatever it is I asked on “one”. If he doesn’t, he certainly does it on “TWO”. Why? Because he damn well knows I’m serious if I’m counting. I made it obvious early on that I wouldn’t even actually SAY “three”. If he doesn’t do what I ask on “two”, I get up, no matter what, and he’s in T.R.O.U.B.L.E.
Amazingly, other (smart) dogs learn by example. I “inherited” a smart Chow when she was 12 years old. She’d heard me use the 1-2-3 on Buddy numerous times. The first time I said “Kya, that’s ONE”, she did a double-take and that was it – she knew what it meant! That included when she first “met” the chickens, and was chasing one – my husband was running down the driveway, screaming KYLA at the top of his lungs. I yelled “Kyla, ONE” and she came to a screeching halt!!
And before anyone gets too upset thinking on “three” they get beat or something, “three” equals me stomping towards them menacingly and putting them in their kennel for a “time out”. Pretty bad, huh?
PS: my cat also learned 1-2-3 because of Buddy.
And yes, I know people will say I’ve “trained my dog not to listen on the first command”… BUT, he NEVER listened on the first command. The 1-2-3 has actually improved his overall obedience. He does often listen, now, on the first command, because he knows if he doesn’t – he doesn’t have much of a chance to recover from it.
Also, people absolutely think it’s hilarious that my dogs know 1-2-3! Then, after witnessing it in action, they’re wicked-impressed at how well it works!
I agree about the dog walking in front. If the dog walks nicely and doesn’t pull when in front of you…. WHO CARES if it’s “wrong”? I find it more pleasant for both parties… that way we’re not tripping over each other.
Both my dogs were horrible pullers (half Husky, so, yeah, bred to pull). I heard of a trick where you put the leash under one of their front legs. It worked. They don’t like the feeling of the leash in their “armpit” for whatever reason and they both stopped pulling right away. You can also get harnesses that do the same thing, but putting the leash under one leg cost me nothing and solved the problem pretty much immediately. I let them walk in front of me and they’re fine. We both prefer off leash but having moved to a suburb recently, they have to walk on a leash more often, unless I drive them to the dog park.
The shock collar thing makes me nervous. I have contemplated it because they are both barky when first let outside and I don’t want to disturb my neighbors late at night. I fear the collar “malfunctioning” and not being able to get it off.
I did however buy a “shock mat” years ago. My dogs are perfectly behaved when someone is at home but we discovered they were doing naughty things when home alone… going on counters, raiding laundry for panties and socks, eating shoes, going on furniture they know they’re not supposed to be on… I did not want to crate them, and they are only home alone for maybe two hours per day. I couldn’t control their behaviour when I wasn’t home, so I bought a plastic “Scat Mat”. I tried it myself and it felt like a really mild static shock (on the low setting, at least.) My female dog stepped on it, looked at it funny, and stepped off. She didn’t even jerk back. One morning I forgot it was turned on and was standing on it for a good minute or two, trying to wake up while wondering why I had a pins-and-needles feeling in my feet.
But my male dog was really surprised by it. He hates static shocks in the first place, he’s a big baby I guess. He YELPS if he gets a static shock from a blanket or something. The first time he stepped on the ‘scat mat’, he didn’t know what was happening and it didn’t occur to him to get away from that space on the floor – he just kept dancing on it and screaming bloody murder… in reality it was only a few seconds but it seemed like forever to me. I called to him to get him off the mat and once he was off it, the look he gave me broke my heart. He associated the sensation with ME and wouldn’t come near me the rest of the night! That was the end of the “shock” experiment. I still use the mat around the house to keep them out of ‘restricted’ places, but it’s not turned on.
Besides, border collies do not like walking on the leash. I’ve owned a couple and known more. My pure border would not walk to heel ON the leash…he’d try to drag me down the street. He would, however, walk perfectly to heel OFF the leash. So I think it was his way of saying ‘Woman, I’m a sheepdog, I don’t NEED a leash, stop putting one on me’. And the ‘leash law’ in the area was worded ‘dog must be under control’. So, I would walk both him and my father’s mongrel, who had picked up the entire ‘drag on the leash heel off it’ thing from him without leashes regularly…I had MORE control that way NOT less.
I think it’s because borders have been bred for so long to work at a distance from the handler and because they’re so SMART.
The “halters” tend to not work too well, but I’ve had *amazing* success with the harnesses that clip in the front. It’s a little awkward for the humans to get used to, but I swear by them. I work for a dog walking company that actually listens to suggestions and clears them with the owners before trying them, I’ve had a couple of cases of dogs that pull and choke themselves regardless of corrections, discipline or anything. I had one really bad case of a dog that I was afraid was going to hurt himself he pulled so badly, we bought him a easy walk harness, and I swear it was like aliens took him, and replaced him with a dog that had leash manners! The effect was instant, and it took a bit for his mom to get used to putting on the harness correctly (lol), but she eventually got the hang of it, and I’ve never been happier.
http://www.gentleleader.com/View.aspx?page=dogs/products/behavior/easywalk/productdescription
I haven’t had much luck with Gentle Leaders either but I know others have. I definitely don’t recommend them to people who can’t stop jerking their dogs or dogs that bolt. I’m afraid they could do damage to their necks. What works for me is an Easy Walk harness. The leash attaches in the front so if the dog pulls the opposing pressure causes him to turn toward you.
Exactly! We had a Basenji and while she was fantastic (and a totally different type of dog) she was completely untrainable. Basenjis are known for this and as a result there is a high dumpage rate because people try to ‘make’ them conform to normal doggy obedience and that will never happen with a Basenji. If you have a Basenji, you have one because you want a different (more cat like) dog who cannot conform. As a result, they require a more thinking approach to training rather than just “do as I say because I’m the human”.
As a side note, Basenjis don’t bark either (they yodel instead) so something like these e-collars would never be required anyway.
You can’t treat every animal with the same blanket treatment and expect it work.
“Anyway, my friend calls a local dog trainer who advises him to use a “Gentle Leader†– gak…which, certainly humane, I really don’t think dogs appreciate the halter thing at all, I put one on my border collie & she just hung her head in shame and spent the rest of the time removing it from her face.”
Gentle Leaders are no more humane than a choke collar or prong collar – they just look nicer. It’s all about the hands behind the tool that make it gentle or not. I left my very well trained lab with my parents for awhile when I was unable to have her at my apartment (due to a size restriction) and even now, long after I finally got her back, she is still recovering from them using a Gentle Leader & a Halti on her. She is still slightly head shy and still has neck trouble when the weather changes. She’s got white hair on her face where the straps were (I’m thrilled her hair has fully grown back – for the longest time she had bare skin where the hair had been rubbed out) and whenever I get asked about her face, I use it as a chance to explain to people that force is never an acceptable way to “train” an animal and how much easier it is to train with clicker training!
So yeah.
In my opinion, Gentle Leaders & Haltis are something that should be used only by an experienced owner, or under the supervision of a good, experienced trainer.
Fugs, I stumbled across some horses for sale that are in hideous condition –
I am sending this to as many rescue groups as possible in hopes that someone will do something for these horses. I called the local authorities, but apparently the seller has connections in the Sheriff’s Dept. so I doubt much will come of it. The owner’s name is Joey Davis, 149 Woodland Dr, Junction City, AR.
I found these horses posted for sale on eldoark.com’s classified ad page. (http://www.eldoark.com/sitepages/pid359.php) There are several Thoroughbreds that are absolutely emaciated being advertised here, the contact number for them is 870-310-6899 and I have attached photos of them in case the ads are taken down. There is no address or name, only the number. Please, please someone do something, I live in an apartment and board my mare in Little Rock, but I can help provide transport for 2 horses as I own a trailer and truck.
I have saved the pics if you want copies emailed to you.
Wish I hadn’t looked. I cringed not only at the starving young TBs, but at almost every other horse ad in there (for other reasons – e.g. too young to be started, poorly fitting tack, shithole conditions, super bad conformation, etc etc), and darn near every dog ad too. That poor chained-out border collie. WTF WTF WTF
Hey, Dean had 2 percheron teens living in that dog pen when I visited her shithole. Coming from mudville, Redmond, Wa. I have only seen mud like that once & it was at a VETs house if you can believe it.
I used to feel guilty when the mud got bad at the place I used to board. . . but it was NOTHING like that! Sometimes the mud might have been up to the coronet band of my horse, and I would shampoo and dry her legs off. . . and she was stalled at night and not turned out if the mud was any worse than that!
I cannot imagine where you would even start helping horses like that. Their feet must be in horrible shape, they have to have scratches or mud fever like crazy, and I don’t care WHAT animal control says, those are not properly fed horses. Even with the fuzzy coats you can see ribs and spine. And the stallion in the dog pen? WTF??? I guess the only thing positive about that is that he isn’t pasture-breeding everything willy-nilly (though like others here, I have the distinct feeling of horror that these people bred something ON PURPOSE). Totally disgusting. And I agree with someone who posted above that the expression on the bay’s face. . . I almost say that it looks hopeful, as if the picture-taker might be able to help them, is a real kick in the gut. I just want to take them all home, groom until my arm falls off, and turn them out in the clean cold snow we have right now with free choice hay!
“Their feet must be in horrible shape, they have to have scratches or mud fever like crazy, ”
I rescued a mare over 2 years ago from a place that wasn’t 1/4 that bad. All 4 of her feet were an awful mess. It took over a year for them to grow out. She had skin problems galore. She still seems to get infections more easily than she should, but I don’t know if that’s from over using antibiotics, or her system was just too overwhelmed.
I thought the mud situation was horrendous, then I saw barbed wire, halters on with endless things to get caught on and I ask myself how the owner can claim to ‘love’ these horses. They’re severely malnourished, probably have scratches, thrush, parasites and God only knows what else, but you LOVE them? No, you love yourself and your needs. If you loved them, you would surrender them. Period! How does someone sleep at night with that going on in the backyard? I feel much better about the situation I witnessed recently with stalls that haven’t been cleaned all winter. There is NO comparison, not even close. Although ‘dirty’ the stalls aren’t wet and the horses have good weight. Not my choice of care and I will be monitoring the situation, but nobody is suffering. These horses are suffering!
OT, but there was a local barn collapse yesterday due to the weight of heavy snow in CT at Lindy Farms. They’re one of the top Standardbred breeder in the country and stand a stallion named “Crazed”, runner up in ’08? trotter futurity. The barn was absolutely gorgeous but none of that mattered and 2 mares perished in the collapse. So a reminder to all in New England and other areas getting pummelled by the snow, SHOVEL YOUR ROOFS. We’ve had close to 80″ so far with very minimal melting and buildings are starting to drop. Protect your animals!!! Story below:
http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/news/1-27-11/barn-collapse-lindy-farms-two-mares-
http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/news/1-27-11/barn-collapse-lindy-farms-two-mares-euthanized.html
corrected link
Wow. As I was scrolling down and saw the top part of the first picture I was thinking “What’s the big deal? My horses look like that after they roll in the mud too.” Then I saw the bottom half of the picture. How can those poor horses even walk?
Oh god! I live in California and yes, the mud gets bad in the winter. But this is insane! Those poor things are probably pulling every tendon in their legs from the suction every time they try to move and I shudder to think of what their hooves must look like.
When I was a kid, we had neighbors whose horses lived in horrendous conditions – small, muddy paddocks, rickety shelters full of loose boards and exposed nails, barbed wire all around. They were all skinny too so my friends and I finally called the humane society who investigated and concluded that there was nothing actionable there. The horses were being fed, were skinny but not starving and had shelter. It was really discouraging for all of us.
More recently, I went through something similar. The horse is in her 30′s and has lived her entire life in a small paddock with a shelter. She is neglected, untrained, needs her teeth seen to and lives in filth but since she has shelter and water and is fed daily, she’s not considered to be a cruelty case. It really disgusts me that an animal has to be on the verge of death for agencies to step in.
Re: your second story, that was ARGUS. Here’s his website: http://savingargus.blogspot.com/
EXACT SAME SITUATION. He will never be “right,” but thank God he was finally sprung from his pen and is now loved within an inch of his life and completely happy.
You’d think that maybe if dude really loved his horses he would let someone care for the animals until he could get his act together – I bet the rescue lady would do something. Chances are he wouldn’t want them back. He might not be able to afford board, but if he’s really feeding them, he could continue to feed them at someone else’s place that isn’t a quagmire.
On the topic of shock collars… All my dogs have been very obedient beasties on the repetition, treat, clear and firm commands, and respect for the dog and the situation. It always irked me that people would comment on how well-behaved they were, like it was some kind of miracle. However, my BO has a new young dog that will not stop chasing & barking at the horses and has been kicked several times, not severely – YET. My BO is trying out a shock collar for that purpose only. So far, as soon as he takes off towards the horses, she calls him back, if he doesn’t respond he gets a zap (mid-range) and he stops dead. Admittedly, he needs a great deal more groundwork (sans shock collar), but in terms of it being a safety issue, I don’t have a problem using this tool in a responsible, targeted situation.
Even a snaffle bit can be severe in the hands of a moron.
I just wanted to let you know that the show jumping gerbil was the best thing (aside from the kitties in Ikea video) I have seen in a while! So inspirational!!!
This is totally OT, but I would really appreciate some help with this:
I am a student from the Estonian Academy of Arts and I am currently writing my MA thesis (Architecture and Urban Design) on urban riding centers. I am looking for examples around the world to confirm my theory that urban riding centers (riding centers that are located inside the boundaries of cities) are a international phenomena.
The problem with locating examples of urban stables is that they are often very well hidden from an idle eye and seldom advertise themselves as such. You either have to be intimately familiar with the local city space or a horse person. So here is a outcry for help to all fellow city dwelling horse people out there: are there any stables in your city?
If you know of any, please let me know at reetvolt(at)hotmail.com (please don’t reply here).
When replying please clearly list the city and country of where the stable or riding center you are telling me about is located. If it’s not situated at a well known city, please make sure I have enough information to look up its population and other information like that.
Further useful information would include: how old is the stable (if it is very old then did it use to be situated outside the city?), is it on the outskirts or the city or near the center, how big is the stable/estimate number of horses, is there a riding school, is it privately owned or is it governed by the city and what kind of riding do they do there. If the stable has a web page, that would be useful too.
If you know where the police horses of your city (if you have any) or the local cart horses that entertain tourists are housed at then this would also be info I could use.
Please be so kind to pass this on to your rider friends that may know about more stables or more about the stables you know about. Also, if you guys know any good forums this would be ok to post at, I would really appreciate you doing so. I’m having a hard time finding forums that look reliable myself (hence me posting this here…).
I’m sincerely grateful for all help.
Best wishes,
Reet Volt (5th year student, http://www.artun.ee)
PS – Kathy – feel free not to post this if you think it’s inappropriate at all.
Sometimes I think my fences suck, just because my 6 foot tall no climb fencing doesn’t have a top rail. And it gets a little muddy around the water trough, poor babies have to get their feet muddy if they want a drink in their 5 acre pasture made out of DG. Guess I should stop feeling sorry for my horses!
Our pasture used to get sloppy, but nowhere near that bad. We borrowed the neighbor’s bobcat, dug out the sloppiest areas during the wet season down to the solid, and put in some drainage so that area would always be safe, at least. Make him board out for at least a month or move them over to the grass with a hot tape section and get his property cleaned up, even if they can’t seize them now b/c of the laws. None of those fences look adequate, which was a big deal for my county since the cops don’t want to be casing horses on the highway, and that kind of filth is a huge health hazard.
I had to chime in here on the subject of shock collars. It really is a barbaric way to teach an animal a new behaviour. I am not a trainer, but I would think it would create other problems in that the dog would have anxiety about being shocked for offering up the “wrong answer” to a request it didn’t understand.
With that said, however, there is nothing more effective (or satisfying) than being able to administer a well-timed zap to a dog whose just flagrantly ignored you and went back to misbehaving because he knows you’re too far away to do anything about it. We had a persistent horse chaser that would NOT give it up. Combine that with an evil pony who knew how to taunt, lure and kick/strike… well we had our share of scary injuries. A shock collar was the only way that we could get him to listen in those situations.
We just laid our old dog Zack to rest a couple weeks ago, and here’s a little tribute video I made for him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWMVCeqPDm8
There are even a couple shots of the aftermath of his chasing that didn’t go so well (one with the pony, one with a SUV) but he survived these and lived to be almost 12, which is fairly old for a big dog.
Even up until the end he was still trying to chase stuff – it was so ingrained into him he never gave it up. Some behaviours like that, you just have to work around it because they aren’t going away. In our case, if we really needed to keep him from chasing stuff, we tied him up or put him in a stall in the barn. People kept telling us that we could turn up our shock collar so high that it would “knock him off his feet” (we never did) but I know in my heart that he would have kept it up even if it killed him. Maybe a professional trainer could have done better than we did, but for us it was just a matter of managing the dog so he wasn’t tempted to get into trouble. I will spare everyone the rest of the story since it’s off topic – my thoughts on herding dogs – more here http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs009/1101533203510/archive/1104274959270.html
http://www.hoofprints.com
check us out on Facebook!
http://www.facebook.com/farriers.hoofprints
The Enumclaw survivor is Sunny if no one else has said.
I don’t know if it will help these poor horses, but I just sent an email to the county sheriff out there and all I did was request that he do something to save the horses in Copperopolis, California. How about if we flooded his email account with pleas to help these horses?
Email General Questions:
sheriffdepartment@co.calaveras.ca.us
Mailing Address:
Calaveras County Sheriff’s Department
891 Mountain Ranch Road
San Andreas, CA 95249
(209) 754-6500
Who in their right mind would think this is OK???? I can’t tell you how many cubic feet of shitty mud I have personally excavated and re-rocked just so my mare had a dry place. Moving into a paddock that hadn’t been maintained in years, the BO joked he was going to charge me for removing his “real estate”, 30+ lg wheelbarrows up a hill. Then layed down with rock. Then raked every day I was there to keep the rock where I wanted it, filling in her hoofprints because you need to keep the surface flat for it drain and dry. There was an idiot couple who put down the rock and never maintained it. It washed down the hill and was like money down a drain.
Then I moved to a place where we carved the paddock out of fresh moved dirt……I found my mare in the same spot over night cause it was so slippery she couldn’t move without a scary flail. Wood chips were my friend then. Totally different circumstances but top of the list.
Boggles the brain.
As far as the dog training. I have seen the hard to train, thank God I haven’t had one. Maybe if safety was a factor.
But even my cats respond to voice and “know” the rules.
I like being a benevilant leader.
As far as the tall handsome rescue, very cute…now when I read about auctions and feedlots I have a better picture of their hell, since the last post.
Also WTF, these pics were Jan 2010!!!! When I read, must be corrected by Feb 2010 I was hoping it was a typo. A year!?!? Did they die standing up because they couldn’t move when it dried up?
No, the pics were this past week. The farm was REPORTED first in January of 2010.
off topic, but 2 horses in spokane had, what they think some asshole took a sledge hammer to their legs, broke a leg on each horse. news story: http://www.khq.com/global/story.asp?s=13915095
I bet this turns out to be a budding young male serial killer, who will get “counseling”.
Fugly, Fugly, stop insulting pigs! Pigs aren’t dirty animals at all…in fact, they much prefer to be clean!
Hey, that was my point…a reputable pig farmer wouldn’t let his pigs live like that, despite the pig’s reputation for enjoying a good roll in cool mud in summertime!
That first mare’s face just reaches out and smacks you doesn’t it? It’s probably good I don’t live in California. It hurts to look at. These kinds of pictures are much nicer accompanied by a “and here they are now” set. If there is a rescue willing to help, and the owner isn’t all over that, hand walking them there if he has to, he is a waste of oxygen.
And in what universe is that a healthy weight??? Are they on drugs??? Blind??? You can count vertabrae THROUGH the mud and winter hair, that is by definition “Too damn skinny”. Do you need to graduate vet school to know the skeleton is the bit on the inside you are NOT supposed to see???
I’m a farrier and I’ve worked on feet once that came out of a pit like that. It’s a nightmare. This gelding lost ALL the hair on his legs from the ‘mud line’ down he had such severe scratches. His frogs were bleeding and could be scraped off with your finger. It was the nastiest thing, the gal had rescued him from a place like this. His soles FELL OUT due to severe abscessing from the mud literally eating his feet. He had a baby thin layer of sole between his coffin bone and the world, he was padded, padded again, and duct taped daily. Looked like he had giant bubble feet, but it protected him enough he could walk. And it took forever to grow decent frogs on him, starting from scratch at corium level. If I never have to see it again it will be too soon. Poor poor things, I pray someone helps them soon.
Please post with who to bitch at, I will be happy to help make noise. Or better yet, hopefully someone grows a brain and gets them out of there.
I will never, ever understand what satisfaction asshats get from looking at animals in this condition. Surely they have to realize what a god awful mess they’ve created; you would think when a rescue comes along and says, “We’ll make it disappear,” they’d jump at the offer. But no, darn it, they’re Americans and it’s their right to keep starved horses in the mud pit in their backyard. The sad thing is, when they’re that dense you know that public outcry, negative press and even animal abuse charges will probably not deter these people from getting animals again. These types should be committed…to a mud pit in someone else’s backyard.
“But no, darn it, they’re Americans and it’s their right to keep starved horses in the mud pit in their backyard.”
YES. Every time. This is America, durn it, and those animals are MY PROPERTEEEE and I kin treat them any way I want and if you don’t git off my land, I’ll shoot you.
Yep and now we’ve heard from the owner that they’re SO VALUABLE. That is the other part of the broken record!
If the crap gets deep enough (not that it isn’t already) that poor horse will be able to crawl over the top of his pen!
Now, on a more serious note, where is his feed landing? In a fed tub, OR, more likely, on top of that muddy, crappy mess???!! Sheesh, if the authorities haven’t removed the horses yet, they surey will after it hits the news (and TV???!!!) SOMEONE will take matters into their own hands. This is NOT “good” publicity for the city!
:/ That’s horrible, the stallion looks really cute as well.
Reminds me of our ranger out this way. We’re out in the middle of nowhere. So if we call AC/RSPCA, they call the ranger.
Well our ranger is a royal ass. He has 4 or 5 absolutely stunning QH. These are simply beautiful horses, very well put together. He’ll breed his mare every year, or every second year, and get a very nice foal out of the mix (twice she’s had palomino fillies which he’s sold for upwards of 2k).
– the mare and her latest pally filly.
The problem is, he has a chestnut filly. She’d have been maybe 2. In mid to late ’09 she got her leg caught in the (barbed wire) fence, she was kicking out at the pregnant mare on the other side.
Back in September 10, we had some major flooding. I didn’t realise it was going to be so bad, so I didn’t move my mares until the morning of the floods (I was boarding my mares on this guy’s property until the paddock I had chosen for them was ready. Since they were excellent with fences and they weren’t going to be there for long, the barbed wire didn’t bother me so much. As I thought, I didn’t have a single problem with them the whole time they were there).
I moved my mares as soon as I could, and took them up to my aunts house. (I love my mares, especially Dulux, who is normally a skittish thing and doesn’t want anything to do with anyone. They were so calm, just plod along beside us, even with all the cars zooming past wanting to look at the flooding.)
The ranger ended up moving his horses at 5pm that day (I moved mine at about 8am). This man SAW ME MOVE MY HORSES. Apparently there was many calls made to the rangers about horses stranded in a paddock surrounded by water. He knew this well before any of the calls were made, because these are his horses, and he lives directly across the road for them and could have seen the water rising from the very start.
That was the September flooding. In December, after everything had calmed down, we got major flooding again. This was worse then last time, and damaged many houses and closed many roads and took out the main road between here and town.
He didn’t move them this time. The three horses were left in that swamp the whole time. It took a couple of days for the water to go down properly. The chestnut mare’s leg is still injured, and I can only imagine what it looks like now. The poor thing can’t even run on it properly, it still hurts her. (I have a video of this, but photobucket is being a pain and won’t let me get to it.)
The most annoying thing is, he’s had the RSPCA out to him many times before, but because he’s the ranger,they don’t do anything to him. He’d just feed them bullshit about how he’s looking after the injuries (which happen frequently to his horses), and since they’re not underweight they let him go.
Hey Fugs…this was posted in the comments of the New 10 video covering this story.
“To apply pressure call Calaveras County Supervisor Darren Spellman 209-786-4585, Captain Ballard (Sheriff’s Dept)209-754-6500, Sheriff Gary Kuntz 209-754-6500, Animal Services 209-754-6509.”
Holy shit! How do you get THAT MUCH mud?!
I think that you can tell that the animlas are malnourished since that stud isn’t busting that kennel apart. My sleepy old gelding totaled one of those after he wandered into it to look for food… and then wedged himself so that he couldn’t back out or turn around. I guess panic mode kicked in. Thank God that he didn’t hurt himself, I’d rather have a sound horse and a $300 bill for a kennel than a euthanasia fee…
Hope those doggies make it somewhere nice and that the best thing possible happens for their owner.
The starving horses east of Billings are being fed.
http://helenair.com/news/article_4064d3a2-2aa6-11e0-8a3f-001cc4c03286.html
OMG…I live in MN, so spring time gets pretty darn muddy in the fields (knee deep or more in low spots), but at least our horses have the room to move out of the mud onto higher grounds if they please. And we keep the feeding/watering areas to higher ground out of mud, so the horses are very rarely in it, of course half of them love to wade into it and roll around, and drink the nasty mud/urine/poop water (yum!)
…but these guys don’t have a choice, they HAVE to be in it.
I really don’t understand how people can look at that and say, “oh, yeah, they have food so they’re fine”, what is the standard for rescue? Do you just go, yep, they have hay, so who cares if they are skinny and knee deep in waste…they have some food there. Sure, it looks like they have been fed (I see some hay in the background), but does it look they are really being cared for? ummm…no. Any moron could see that. I don’t know, personally, the only rescue I have ever been in dealings with is very quick to take horses for much smaller happenings. Maybe I’m just spoiled to it, but it seems like there are big excuses here, do we really need to find a dead horse in the field before we seize? If I saw horses in that condition, and the rescue or law inforcement wouldn’t do anything, I would have no problem bringing down a big ass trailer in the middle of the night to steal the horses out of there to better life.
I lived 20-plus years in Stockton, not far from Copperopolis and Jamestown. The “dirt” in Stockton is adobe (which the rednecks there call “dobie”), and in the winter it can suck your Wellingtons right off your feet. It takes forever to dry out and if you don’t work the damp ground, the mud will dry in those sharp clods that are hard on horses’ feet (especially if there is no hoof left after a muddy winter) and can be tricky to walk on for us two-leggeds as well.
I don’t know about the ground in Copperopolis and Jamestown, but the pictures of that mud sure look “familiar.” I note on one picture a lovely grassy area just outside the crap fence. Wonder why the horses aren’t moved out of their pigsty paddocks and allowed to graze on the lawn. Those horses have MUDBALLS on their coats. While it doesn’t take long for mudballs to form, given the type of dirt (adobe), it also doesn’t take long for them to be washed off, either.
I too had a filly with a club foot (part of a 3-in-1 package I purchased. Her full sister did not have the same problem). Frequent trims are the answer. She was sound (and VERY “full of herself” — I called her “Little Evil” ;o) because I had a shoer who knew how to handle the situation. She went barefoot without a single issue the three years I owned her and she was going well under saddle when she sold.
OT: The Montana story is on AOL this morning with round bales being airlifted to the starving horses.
Link to the Leachman/Home Place Ranch story:
http://www.pawnation.com/2011/01/28/hay-airlifted-to-starving-horses-in-montana/?icid=main%7Chtmlws-main-n%7Cdl5%7Csec3_lnk1%7C198048
Just received an email update: the owner is 70 years old, and he believes the horses are “registered Morgans and quite valuable.” Egads.
The horses had access to pasture across the road until this year when the land was foreclosed upon. So the old guy brought these horses into his yard because he didn’t have the money to board them anywhere else. He obviously doesn’t have the energy or money to keep up the property or the horses.
Email works. The horse folks in northern California called the various agencies, newspapers and TV stations today. So far two newspapers are working on a story and two TV stations as well as the Calaveras Humane Society (NOT the Calaveras Animal Control who is not responding).
Now that the neighbors know what is happening there, they are feeding – even though we know that those very thin horses need additional feed, that compounds the problem because it will enable the old guy to continue thinking he has the wherewithal to keep his horses. I hope the media attention will shame him into giving up the horses to the rescue organization, ReHorse Rescue in Jamestown, that is willing to take them all in.
Is there another neighbor that has pasture available? Maybe he’ll be able to pay something to lease a local pasture.
That is horrible! I have a very sandy pasture with barely any grass at all and mine does not look like this! (But they are on about 2-3 acres) Looks like it hasn’t been cleaned in forever, they have no shelter, and they’re skinny to boot! That is definitely a seizure! A dog kennel is no place for any horse, and that one don’t even look fit for a dog. That stallion in my opinion, from what I can see, should also be a gelding! Absolutely unacceptable!!!!
On another note, read about the gelding that was rescued in the bottom picture, what would be considered a club foot? I’m just curious, I’ve been told my filly has one, then again someone said she didn’t. Her heel on one front foot grows faster than the toe, but we keep it trimmed frequently so it’s all balanced and even like the rest of her feet. Have done that since she was a foal.
Also why can he only do flat work? Is it because of the club foot? Sorry for so many questions, just curious and wanting to learn more about it.
Your filly probably has a club foot, and you’ve already learned what you need to do – frequent trims – to ensure it doesn’t cause a problem.
I personally don’t worry much about club feet – I’ve worked polo ponies that had them and stayed sound – but I think SCR just wants to err on the side of caution and adopt him to a home that won’t over do it with him. He’s safe and sensible, so he would be great for an adult re-rider who isn’t interested in anything super competitive. I don’t see any reason he could not do lower level dressage. I can’t get over how CUTE he is under saddle!
Thanks Fugs
I was just wondering about her, but she is balanced and the vet and farrier said they don’t see anything wrong with her. Just wondering if I’d be able to jump her, not in competition, but just little fun jumps no more than about 2 foot when she gets older. She’s going on 4 in June, so I have a few years to wait before I can start on her with any type of jump training. We do basic ground work, and basic saddle work right now at a walk. I just want her to be safe and happy, I’ve had her since she was 4 months old and want her to still be happy and sound many years down the road, she’s my baby. 
Also I hope that the dogs find good homes. Really wish we could do something about those horses too. Have one not too far from me now that lives in a small pen (can’t really say paddock or pasture) that is nothing but skin and bones. Called animal control, but the horse is still there and I called a few months ago! Makes me so mad! If I could I would go over there and just take the horse and punch those people! All the starvation and neglect makes me feel really helpless most of the time.
On a good note, I did get an older mare from a guy that was abusing her. She was well fed (actually over fed) and healthy, but he beat her and would yell at her for being hard to catch. She threw him was why he was getting rid of her, I don’t blame her one bit though from the way I heard he was treating her. She’s been here about 2 or 3 weeks now, and follows me around the pasture, is easy to catch, and is so sweet. Going to start working on gaining her trust with the saddle and riding tomorrow.
My girl, you can see a slight bit of difference in her left fore(club foot), but otherwise she is healthy and happy
Figured I’d share a picture of a healthy horse if you didn’t mind. This was taken during the summer right after her bath. I don’t have grass in the pasture, but I temp fence the front yard so they can eat grass. By the way, she will NOT be used for breeding even though she has a great pedigree, there are too many horses out there that need homes instead of me producing another baby. 
She is BEAUTIFUL!!
Thanks TBDancer!
She’s my pride and joy. First baby I’ve ever trained myself and I get compliments on how well behaved she is all the time. I’m so proud of her! She’s just one of those horses that would rather be around people than other horses, what I call “in your pocket” horse. She always has to “help” in anything I do. lol
A cousin of my husband’s has a mare that has 2 club feet. She will never be sound for anything (I wouldn’t even consider her pasture sound.) because even knowing her problems at birth, nothing was done. She still doesn’t get regular trimmings and the mare is around 6. Her feet are completely rolled over with extra toe. It’s painful to watch her walk, but she doesn’t want to put her down “because she loves her”.
Brenda that’s awful! I’m glad we found out she had a club foot before she got too much older. It was so slight, didn’t notice it when I bought her. Told the guy I got her from about it and he gave me my money back, said he doesn’t sell horses with defects, so he gave her to me. I love my girl to pieces, but if there ever came a time where she couldn’t live comfortable and be happy with as much help as I can give, I’d have the vet put her down. Not really a way to live if they’re miserable all the time. :/
Those poor horses are looking at the camera as if to say, “Please, do not take my picture while I look this horrible”
I loved it when that woman called the owner a “moron” LOL And then he just waved her away. He is purely in denial.
I do hope they are rescued.
I was almost knee-high when getting a horse out of the same type of conditions. It was nothing but standing water, poop, urine, mud and all they did was toss hay in the middle of the pee. No water. Nothing. The horse was in pretty rough shape. In with 6 or 7 other mares and a stallion. I pray she is NOT pregnant.
Animal Control out here cannot do anything if there is feed on the property. They are in the middle of trying to pass ordinances which give them authority to do something about conditions. There is no law requiring shelter or standards of care for horses…..yet.
It’s disgusting people can treat them like this. We had the same amount of rain and mud, but we dug trenches and actually put feed into…feeders so they don’t have to eat off the nasty ground. Amazing.
No one local wants to get involved because the guy is NUTS. Greets you with a gun kind of nuts.
“We had the same amount of rain and mud, but we dug trenches and actually put feed into…feeders so they don’t have to eat off the nasty ground. Amazing.”
Yeah it’s amazing what can be accomplished when you ACTUALLY GET OFF YOUR ASS and do some WORK for the benefit of your animals. You know, the animals that NO ONE is forcing you to own, that you CHOOSE to own.
I just get so damn annoyed. I mean, there are people here who know me in real life…I am one of those, stalls cleaned 2x a day, buckets scrubbed regularly, hooves picked daily kinds of people. It irritates me no end to see this kind of neglect, and then to hear the douchebag says he LOVES them just tips me RIGHT over the edge.
I have a whole barn full of these types. Not one of them sees the slop their horses pasture in all day. Not one of them has cleaned their stall on the two holidays the stall cleaners are off. Not one of them has ever cleaned a water bucket, but they sure are there five+ days a week to ride horses.
These are the parents of pony clubs kids. All the pony club education on how to care for horses and not one parent does any of it. They seem hell bent on playing all the time while their horses live in filth. And many of them have name plates that say: Owned and Love by ….. Right.
I’ve been tempted a few times to whop ‘em upside the head with a pitch fork so they would know what one looks like.
Yeah…there are definitely two kinds of horsepeople! I know which kind I’d like to be owned by if I were a horse, that’s for sure.
I agree, horses require work and if you can’t get off your butt to keep them like they should be kept then you shouldn’t own one. I really think you should have to take a course and get a license to be able to own one. There is so much you need to know before you even start looking. I really hate the idea of so many horses out there in conditions like this and malnourished or abused that need help and we all can’t do but so much. I also hate when someone boards a horse and never goes to see it unless they ride. I know some people just can’t get there and would like to spend quality time with their horses, but I’m talking about the ones that just hand them over to someone else and never get their hands dirty. Horses are a dirty job, and you have to love them to be able to do what us true horse people do. It’s a labor of love.
This reminds me of Fugly’s post a long while back, with the picture of the Akhal Teke in the flooded paddock in some 3rd world country.
Except that the Akhal Teke had an actual paddock that it could potentially use
What’s really sad is… take a look at the nice dry field in the background of the second picture. I imagine the poor horse looking just a few feet away, thinking “if only…”
Now this is a severe club foot. Conformational error malformation of the coffin bone. This horse was unridable.
Darn the pic didnt show did I put in the wrong code?
Off topic but I couldn’t quickly find a way to email you with my 2 year old climbing on my head…
Hey Fugly,
I am very curious what you/people are thinking about Senate Bill 262 in Oregon. Will it help? Will it give law enforcers a leg to stand on OR will dirtbags just dump their horses?
http://www.leg.state.or.us/11reg/measpdf/sb0200.dir/sb0262.intro.pdf
I am proud that Oregon is trying!!! I would gladly pay a tax if it would help! Even a higher tax.
Thanks so much,
Abbagayle
HOW…HOW can anyone look at the condition these horses are in and think that it’s okay? HOW can anyone allow these horses to stand there in belly-deep squalor, coated in God knows how many layers of mud, and claim that they “love their horses like family? HOW can anyone live in a warm, dry, and comfortable home when that poor stud is living in a DOG KENNEL? Just…-HOW-?!
We’re currently dealing with a pretty nasty mud situation right now thanks to the melting snow. However, you will NEVER catch my horses looking like this. Their food and water can be found in their lean-tos, which are on higher ground with a nice and clean bedding of straw that is cleaned daily. Their walkways are graveled to give them traction, feet and legs are cleaned 2-3 times a day to prevent scratches (also, applying Vaseline to the backs of their pasterns helps keep the skin from being rubbed off from the remaining snow and dirt), and areas that are getting really sloppy are dug out, scraped flat, and given a layer of gravel to prevent potentially dangerous mudholes/slick spots. Mud is NEVER left on their bodies because of what it can do to their skin, so they are groomed in the morning, then spot-groomed throughout the day depending on how dirty they managed to get themselves.
Unlike that…person…I cannot sit in my warm, dry, and comfortable home knowing that my horses are out in the pasture coated in mud. I would rather freeze my butt off getting them comfortable before I even think of getting myself comfortable. And that man has NO excuses. I’m 5 months pregnant with a bad knee (barrel racing accident from 10 yrs ago that requires a full replacement) and a bad back (riding accident when a mare I was riding spooked thanks to asshats on ATVs blazing past us), and I am -STILL- out there every single day making sure those girls are taken care of.
Someone needs to get up off their ass and DO SOMETHING before there aren’t any live horses on that property to save.
Mud control would actually be a great topic for a blog!
I HATE mud. Taking good ideas from different people, we have little to no mud this winter. Our property has a low spot in the middle that actuallly forms a lake when it rains a lot, but we still have very little mud there. Some ideas:
1. No shoes on the horses in teh winter to help save the grass.
2. Horses are in stalls/paddocks at night to give the pasture a rest.
3. A gutter installed around the stalls did wonders to keep the paddocks mud free. A little bit of crushed gravel on top of the paddocks and they are perfect.
4. We rotate pastures to give the grass a chance to grow back.
5. Hot tape in front of the gates keeps the horses from churning up the mud in these areas.
6. H0rses are fed in the middle of the pasture instead of along the fence line so they aren’t tearing up the ground along the fence every day. It only takes about 5 minutes to walk out there and dump the feed in the pasture.
7. Finally, people need to know their limits. An acre propety cannot handle 10 horses! Of course it depends on the property and where you live. We have 4 acres of pasture and three horses this year = no mud. Last year we had 5 and had a lot more mud.
Spreading the word that UC Davis has a e-book online for “Minimum horse care standards in the state of California”, would be a great resource for uneducated officials.
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ceh/sp_standards.cfm
Love you UC Davis! It includes actual pictures showing what is “good” and what is “bad” in terms of hay, water, body condition. Very helpful for those graduates from the school of stupid why say things like “whayl yah got yah hay an wadda so thays nuttin we cayn do”.
Holy crap. All that mud on their fur and in their tails has got to hurt. I hate to think of what their skin and hooves look like under all that.
HOW can someone look at that and think, “Yeah, that’s ok.”???!
sumbitch!!!
Again, OT, but urgently need advice: a friend’s gray horse has been stumbling and tripping lately, she took him to the vet – the vet found melanomas under the tail and right by the spine. Any experience and prognosis? Any vet. doctors that anyone can recommend in north-west Arkansas area-driving distance? The best vet we know of is Dr. White in Ok, but I think his specialty is feet/legs/joints.
Thank you, everyone.
If he’s stumbling I’d be afraid the tumors are pressing on the spine. I would not ride him anymore at this point.
I have had good luck with Nublada’s Cure to slow the progress of the melanomas but ultimately it is going to be fatal if they’re on the spine like that. That’s what happened with my mare that had them…eventually something pressed the wrong way and she lost most use of her right hind and started falling, so I had to put her to sleep.
The easiest way to find equine specialty practices/veterinarians is to use the get a DVM locator on the AAEP (American Assoc. of Equine Practitioners) website at:
http://www.aaep.org/dvmsearch
I searched Arkansas and there are about 23 vets listed. There is information about their practices, and contact info. by clicking the link for each hit. I did not search in the close neighboring states, but you can. I did not know any of the vets listed for Arkansas but do know many in the OK/North TX corridor.
Regarding the shock collars – I think in the right circumstances they are useful. I have a dog that chases cars and while she is at home she is kept on a long cable that allows her access to shade and water and it is long enough that she can run around, but she jumps the fence if allowed off the cable and as we live in a company house, we cannot change the fence. This poses a problem when she is being walked – as she is on the farm, we prefer not to put a leash on her, so that she can have a run around and let rip in the paddocks. If a car happens to come past though, then she will chase it and THAT IMO is more of a problem than using a small static shock to discipline her. She does not respond to yelling while chasing a car and obviously I cannot smack her when she chases the cars, so I feel that a shock collar works rather well in this situation. It allows her to stretch her legs and have a roll and sniff with the other dog while keeping her safe and within our control. We always call to her before pressing the button, so that she has a chance to turn around and come back, we have it on the very lowest setting and we only use it when we absolutely have to. Our collar also has a cut out time, to ensure safety. I think that ANYTHING can be dangerous in the wrong hands, I do not think they are as horrible as people make them out to be and I actually prefer these to the barking and perimeter collars as they will sometimes emit shocks without the dog doing anything wrong – confusing the animal.
I think that for training purposes, it is not a good idea, but in certain circumstances it is appropriate. If the dog is in danger and you need to choose between keeping the dog confined in a very small area or using a shock collar, I think the shock collar is the better solution. My dog does not fear the shock collar, in fact she is excited by it as she knows that when it is put on her, it means she gets to go for a run.
Here’s an update on the horses from: http://www.uniondemocrat.com/20110129102481/News/Local-News/Ten-horses-rescued-in-manure-filled-pen
“A search warrant served Saturday morning resulted in the arrest of two elderly Copperopolis residents and the rescue of 10 horses that had been living in a small fenced area filled with mud and feces.
One of the horses, the only stallion, lived in a 10-by-10-foot dog kennel, three quarters of which had a roof so he couldn’t lift his head to its normal position when standing. “He was standing in about a year’s worth of feces,” said Raquel Van Vleck, owner of ReHorse Rescue Ranch, who helped rescue the animals and will house most of them while they are nursed back to health.
Arrested were Nigh Lawhon, 72, and his wife, Velma, age unknown, at their home on the 3900 block of Beaver Court. Calaveras County Sheriff’s Sergeant Laurie Murray said Nigh Lawhon was arrested because he decided to fight with officers serving the search warrant.
She said he would probably be charged with resisting or delaying an officer in the performance of duty and assault on a peace officer.
Velma Lawhon was arrested an hour or so later, Murray said, because she kept getting between the nervous horses and rescue workers. “I’m really sorry it came to this,” Murray said. “She kept getting into the strike zone and people asked her repeatedly to move. We had to get her out of here before she got hurt or caused somebody else to get hurt.”
The will be on the news tonight at 10pm, out of channel 10 news in Sacramento, so stay tuned. All the horses are off the property though!
WOOHOO!
I love it when it ends up like this. If you called or e-mailed or notified the news, THANK YOU.
I’m glad they got arrested, too, and didn’t just play the Poor Elderly People card and get off scot free.
I don’t know what makes me happier, that the horses finally got some help or that those two assholes got arrested! I’d say it’s a win-win for horses and humans alike!
Hi Fugly,
Just out of curiosity, have you ever heard of someone named Brenda Estes? She claims to rescue OTTBs from Oregon/California/Washington.
I have but I don’t really know much about her.
I have to wonder if these horses are actually going to end up in a better situation.
From a news article on Jan 7, 2011, they are stating they are over 30 horses, 2 donkeys and pot bellied pig. They rely solely on donations to feed the animals and estimate the cost is $150 per day plus medical care. There are comments where a couple of people point out they are on a RENTED piece of land that is 2 small to sustain the amount of horses they presently have and no pasture. How quickly will their lots turn to mud (if this is indeed the case) with them adding 10 horses and are they set up to handle a stallion? If they are looking for money to feed the 30+ they already have, how on earth are they going to handle another 10 who look like they need more than TLC. Hate to be the devil’s advocate but someone has to.
Nope, I don’t think you’re wrong to point that out.
http://www.mymotherlode.com/news/local/1208852/ReHorse-Rescue-Ranch-Seeking-Homes-For-Horses.html
Check out the comments section.
Again, I hate to be a bitch about it but does the person running this rescue have another source of income for the horses in case donations run low? It seems that’s a “requirement” for ranchers but not rescues. You would think a rescue would need a constant source of income and not be asking for money to support the horses already in their care before taking on even one more.
I’m with you…I’m not plugging any rescue that seems to be in a state of financial desperation. There is a cure for that called E-M-P-L-O-Y-M-E-N-T.
That said, damn near anywhere’s better than where those horses were…hopefully the situation isn’t dire and they are just crying wolf on their site (which I have had people ADMIT to me, they do in order to get donations. I wouldn’t do it. I think it makes you look terrible and isn’t worth whatever donations you get. But to each their own…)
Regarding the horses in mud! Here is some info on where you can contact the authorities to let them know how you feel about this cruelty.
To apply pressure call Calaveras County Supervisor Darren Spellman 209-786-4585, Captain Ballard (Sheriff’s Dept)209-754-6500, Sheriff Gary Kuntz 209-754-6500, Animal Services 209-754-6509.
The owner obviously does not have the mental capacity to keep these animals. I shudder to think what condition these horse’s feet will be in once they actually get out of that mud! They will need vet care I am sure. I just sat down from looking at my horses laying in the sunshine and munching on hay while laying down, I cannot imagine what those poor horses go through on a daily basis! Shame on Calaveras county officials!
We’re good, the horses were seized yesterday!
Re the dog training school featured in the Youtube clip above; I went to their website for their franchise “Sit Means Sit”. They use the collar at all times on all the dogs and advertise it as a shortcut for training. So, basically it’s just for lazy, ignorant people who don’t want to go through the time consuming labour of actually teaching dogs stuff. Just zap ‘em and they’ll learn real fast. Zilch respect for these sorts of so-called trainers.
In the second picture, the stallion in the mud,, he looks like he is blind. He’s got that wide stare blind horses get. (Those that have a blind horse know what I mean)
As awful as the owner is for allowing anything to live under those conditions, I’m simply appalled by the initial response that the authorities couldn’t do anything because the horses were fed. It sounds like the local paper and TV news channels should be given this info so they can start a clean up job in the county government.
I CAN NOT BELIEVE people can go on and on about dog training techniques after viewing these horrid photos of these poor horses! Are you numb?
Did the address for these horses come up? Who can we call? That is disgusting and the owner should be required to stay in that paddock for a period of time. Please post the owner info so we can address THAT instead.
They’ve been seized – we’re good