It’s funny how we never have “accidents” like this…
Dec 19 2010
Someone posted this video showing the “crime scene” where a trainer named Alisija Granger decided to “cure” a hard to tie horse. The horse ended up dead. If you read the comments, no one denies it happened. The best defense is it was an “accident.”
Alisija trains at Callegari Equine Technologies and, as you can see, they are still proudly advertising her services after this incident. “We just love her versatility and agreeable attitude of trying different things,” they say. Like tying a horse to a tree and beating it ’til it winds up dead? Those are some different things, all right, but they’re ones no one needs to try. Ever.
This is one of those blogs where I am just gonna throw it out there and let you all discuss this person and what you have seen of her training. (Someone tried to get the info on the Chronicle of the Horse Forum a month ago but nobody talked, so you know, we’ll talk here!) That is how we usually get to the truth here. My understanding is that (a) the temper tantrum on the trainer’s part is common for her and (b) no one has the guts to press charges because she is some sort of big deal and rode at WEG. Honestly, I don’t care if you rode at the fucking Olympics – if you think a good way to teach a horse to stand tied is to tie it to a tree and beat it, you are no better than the most knuckle-dragging hillbilly kill buyer on earth. You are cut from the same cloth, sweetheart. And I don’t care what you want to say about an accident — I’ve been riding for 35 years, many people on this blog have been riding much longer, and I’m betting none of us ever left a bloody tree and a huge collection of thrash marks behind after a “training” session.
For that matter, it’s amazing how many of us haven’t killed a single horse during a ride, ground work, or training session. Raise your hand if you’re a member of the Ain’t Killed ANY! Club! *waves at you guys*
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In reference to those talking about how they must not use whips “right” since they DON’T want the horse afraid of it; I once was hired to work with a horse for a neighbor. I was doing basic ground-work to get him ready to ride. I would bring a “toy box” of all sorts of scary stuff and do desensitization work. One of the things I worked with was a riding crop. I quit working with him because he was too dangerous for the extent of my knowledge (would rear and strike, he was fine with all my “scary” stuff, he was a nut in general). I was working with a horse for a relative of the geldings owner and she later told me that the geldings owner was upset I had “ruined” her horse because he wasn’t afraid of the whip anymore. I just laughed out loud. Obviously, the owner was probably the reason the gelding was so crazy! My horses aren’t AFRAID of whips, but they understand them as cues. A horse afraid of the whip is a scary horse to work with in my experience.
I agree…they should not be afraid of the whip. They should respect it, just as they respect YOU.
Anyone who thinks horses are automatically going to be afraid of whips needs to come meet my horse, who will take the longe whip away and wave it at ME when he’s done working! “Your turn, Mom!” He taught himself that one… he also targets with a specific crop (that’s how I taught him to bow and free load into a trailer). Magically enough, a properly trained horse will understand the difference between whip (the object) and whip use (the cue) and will move away from a cue given with a whip while having no fear whatsoever of the object itself. Hmm, funny how good things happen when you take more than 10 minutes to train your horses to longe/respect a crop/etc., am I right?
I’ve worked with horses that were abused with whips and have so far met exactly one who never did actually learn to longe with one despite desensitization… and honestly that was more so because she turned out to be so easy to longe with just a flick of the line substituted for the longe whip.
I do know one horse who simply outright is OFFENDED if you swish a whip at her. The little diva isn’t one bit scared, she’ll chew on it all day if it’s on the ground, but miss snotty pants pitches a fit if you cue her with it on the line. Trainer is not amused, but owner indulges, so the behavior continues. Mares…
I think it’s pretty simple regarding whips. Teach the horse to read your body language, then keep that language honest. If you are going to ‘get’ the horse, make that really clear with your body. Your horse will quickly learn exactly when that whip has the potential to ‘eat em alive’, because the whip doesn’t become the signal– the body language does.
I also just want to point out, with all the talk of horses who pull when tied – if you have a panic release snap on a tie or cross-tie, PLEASE put it on the end attached to the wall – NOT on the end that attaches to the halter!
I cannot tell you how many barns I see the panic snap on the halter end of the cross ties and it drives me crazy. If you’ve got a horse that is panicking, pulling, sitting down/standing up, or thrashing about, the last thing I want to do is to try to get near his head and forelegs to get ahold of that snap!
The quick release snap is a wonderful device that can quickly release a panicking horse even when he’s putting full pressure on the tie, but in my opinion it does no good attached to his head. It should be attached to the wall, where you can safely reach it and release the horse in the event of an emergency. The added plus is that you’d also have a line attached to the horse when you do release him, instead of letting him loose.
Besides the safety issue, those panic snaps are hella annoying to open and close for daily use. There’s a reason for that – they are not INTENDED for daily use attaching to the halter!
Of course for the panic snap to be useful when attached to the wall, the tie or cross tie should be attached in a place that you can easily reach…. not sky-high.
My ideal tie or cross tie is a bungie that is attached to the wall with a panic snap (placed on the wall within reach), and on the halter end, a loop of baling twine with a regular, easy to operate snap. I think that covers all the bases – strong but with some give, the panic release on the wall in case of emergency, and the baling twine will give if the horse panics and the quick release snap cannot be reached in time. Plus regular snaps are nice and easy to use on a daily basis. (I have never used the blocker tie thing so I can’t comment on that.)
And leather halters only, or at least, a nylon halter with leather breakaway portion. Leather halters can be found CHEAP, only like $3 more than a nylon/leather combination.
The quick release snap is a wonderful device that can quickly release a panicking horse even when he’s putting full pressure on the tie, but in my opinion it does no good attached to his head. It should be attached to the wall, where you can safely reach it and release the horse in the event of an emergency. The added plus is that you’d also have a line attached to the horse when you do release him, instead of letting him loose.
I’ve been preaching this for years. Few barns do it. It’s almost impossible to get to a panic’d horses head to release a snap. If they’ve fallen and/or trashing around, few people will be able to release it. It’s a panic situation. I like to reverse them so the release snap hooks to a piece of twine, then to a wall hook low enough for people to reach.
I’d rather have the panic snap attached to the halter than the wall (or the trailer, or whatever), and that’s because I’ve seen two horses in my lifetime who lost an eye when the panic snap released and the tie then rebounded and smacked them in the face.
I’ve also been in barns all my life where panic snaps were all over the place and for whatever reason, they never release when you need them to. I could sit here writing anecdotes for hours, but the bottom line is that I just don’t trust those things. This Blocker Tie Ring sounds pretty interesting, but I’ve never had occasion to use it. To be honest, I’d rather never tie. My gelding ties just fine, but I’ve seen so many accidents and near misses, I would just as soon never hard tie a horse of mine ever again. Or use cross ties in the aisle. To my way of thinking, if they can crosstie in the aisle, then they can just as well learn to stand loose.
I think you just blew my mind.
I haven’t really been in the kind of barn environments where there are lots of crossties, but whenever I’ve seen them, the snap has been next to the halter… and I always wondered how on earth you’d get at the snap if the horse panics. I can see the risk another commenter noted though that if you put the snap on the other end, it can hit the horse in the eye.
I guess I’m just not a fan of crossties in general… but I also have a horse who absolutely panics when tied, and despite a LOT of patient work on it (I love blocker tie rings, but with a panic puller they don’t seem to help much in fixing the problem… they just help prevent the problem from getting bigger
), just doesn’t get better. And I’ve seen enough wrecks now with horses that the owners SWEAR up and down will stand tied perfectly forever and ever that I’m not a big believer in tying fast at all anymore. I’m with some of the other folks here… I’d rather deal with a loose horse than a dead one.
Those quick-release dealios blow. Cross-ties also blow.
It’s not for everyone, but here at El Rancho Semi-Deluxe we kick it old-skool: we got a square 6 x 6 post set in cee-ment. The post has a little 2×4 cross rail bolted to the back about 6 feet up. You know, like a really tall, skinny fence. We toss the lead rope over the post and cross rail. No knots. No snaps. When the horse pulls, the post corners and cross rail give mild resistance to the rope. You have to keep pulling up the slack if the horse is bitin’ at flies or fidgety, but, like many of us, I’ve had it up to here with jittery Arabians flipping over, so I cope with this mild inconvenience.
“But Skipper Marlowe,” you say. “Can’t the jittery Arabian panic and pull back and get loose?”
Yeah, I suppose it can. But I’ve never had that happen yet. As a matter of fact, the only times I’ve had a jittery Arabian panic and pull back and get loose is when using cross ties. And as another matter of fact, my personal Arabians have gotten less and less jittery since the implementation of this plan. And so far, no dead ones.
At our stables, if you have a horse that is new/green to cross-ties, the owner recommends making making a loop out of twine for each side of the halter and clipping the cross-tie clips to the loop (not the halter). The loop will break if the horse panics but is strong enough to hold up to looky-lou moves and gentle walking forward/backing up.
Most of them never panic, but one did recently and no one was injured – including the horse. He was calmly caught, led back into the grooming stall, asked to stand quietly for a bit with someone at the grooming stall reassuring him.
My neighbor cross tied her nice horse in cross ties to soak her hoof. The horse stepped back a little, tipped the soaking bucket over, scaring herself a little, and pulled back. The single strand loop of twine connecting both her cross tie ends to an eye bolt on the wall DID NOT break as expected and the horse broke her neck. No one could believe it when they saw it. The string should have broken before the neck did, but it didn’t.
I should have also included leather halter or nylon with leather break away. The purpose of the twine that normally breaks away is to save replacing halters.
Yes, I’ve heard this a lot also… but maybe it’s best to just tie for instance with a few strands from a piece of baling twine, instead of a whole length of baling twine? That stuff is STRONG, and when I’ve seen people use this technique of attaching the crosstie to the twine, usually the snap broke before the twine did.
Not all twine is natural fiber — there are “twines” made of plastic material that are FAR stronger than natural materials (). You need to make sure that you’re using sisal twine…
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So here’s my two cents worth~
It looks to me like the horse was tied up high on the tree and while panicking to get loose circled around and that is when it’s head became against the tree and probably thrashed to the point of hitting it’s head on the tree multiple times. Oh, and if this happened while being beat with a whip, then there you go. First you have a panicky horse who does not tie, then add in the beating to perhaps make it stand??? Yea, that’s a horse trainer we all are running to.
I made a few comments on the YouTube comment section and there is one person who is defending this trainer to the hilt. They are very adamant about people passing judgment on rumors and hear-say. I’m thinking it’s the witch herself. But there is never nary a word about the blood on the tree. Why would you defend something when the evidence is as plain as the blood on the tree??? She’s nuts.
I’m surprised to not see any comments on here in defense of the whole incident. Must be chicken shit! or they just haven’t found out yet
There’s been a lot of speculation in here about what really happened, many rumors, and much innuendo. I have some factual information here regarding what happened. The horse was tied to the tree to recieve a bath, because he refused to go into any of the “normal” wash stalls at this barn. He was tied with a quick-release knot. ALisija took him to that area not because it could not be seen, but because there is a hose there, and it’s an area frequently used for washing horses by those who prefer a more open area. As soon as the water hit touched his shoulder, he began to freak out. He circled the tree, thus tightening his own lead. He panicked, and fought, fighting the tree to get loose, and in the process hit his own head, fracturing his skull. There was no whipping or beating involved, as admitted today by the person who posted the original video on YouTube. Alisija tried to release him, but could not get close enough without endangering her own life. There were no witnesses. Someone who was at the barn at the same time has come forward in response to the Callegaris plea for witnesses, and given testimony that she was the only one there. She saw and heard nothing. There were no marks of abuse on the body. The autopsy showed the horse died of exactly the trauma that would be expected in a horse “setting back” and coming forward to impact a solid object. Sorry if I’m disappointing anyone that would like to believe otherwise, but it really was just a tragic accident. The barn owners have been extremely diligent in their efforts to discover the truth. And, for those of you following YouTube, the maker of this video now admits the entire story is just something she heard. She is no longer employed by, nor boarding at, the owner of the horse’s barn.
I’ve observed Alsija training horses every day for years. I would call her firm but fair, not abusive. She takes on horses that many people are afraid of, and with consistent work makes them into safe mounts and often show winners. I would recommend her for anyone whose interests were into the area of jumping or dressage. She is a highly disciplined professional, and has many students who adore her.
As to the barn owner’s, they have a clean, safe and well-maintained operation. There are 135 horses boarding there, and in the last 8 years, there has only been one other horse death on property, in which a horse died after being kicked by another in the pasture. I’d call that a pretty darn good safety record. The horses there are happy and healthy. If the SPCA visits, that’s exactly what they’ll find. I’d be happy to show them through the place myself. People, especially families, enjoy their horses there on a daily basis.
I suggest to anyone following this story that they take another look at the comment string on YouTube. Humphey’s position has done a 180 degree turn in the last 24 hours, and I hope she’s got a good lawyer. There was no horse beating involved, and what happened was simply an accident. Blood on a tree does not prove a crime scene, and with no witness, there is no case. The courts will make the decision, but courts tend to stick to facts, not emotions.
way way off topic.
This was in our CL tonight. I’ve made arrangements to pick up the dog tomorrow morning. Any words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated. They sound like nice people who can’t seem to afford the vet care. I told them our first stop would be at the vet and they sounded relieved. Full disclosure: We had farm dogs when I was growing up but I haven’t owned one since (many years).
‘Free Cardigan Corgi. House broke and well mannered. Doesnt chew. 4 years old. It is over weight and coughs. Her name is bodachous very well mannered. My dad said he would leave it on a dirt road by a farm house if somone doesnt pick her up by tomorrow afternoon. Free’
Nice people except for the dad, obviously. :{
Heya — I actually logged in because of your comment — I’m pretty active in the Cardigan Corgi community out in the PNW and I’m honestly quite surprised that someone has a dog out there that isn’t on a breeder clause to contact the breeder first before rehoming the dog. :/ There’s a few of them out there, but sure not many, no way, and I love my breed and the people in it for it. All of us will bend over backwards to help a Cardi in need.
I’m glad you’re going to get her out of there! Yes, first thing is to the vet and if there’s anything I can do to help, please let me know, I’ll sure try! I don’t know where you are… but I can maybe get you in touch with people in our area. Our parent club might be able to supply some info for you, too.
Bodacious is a pretty well-known dog in our little Cardigan community (she might be a daughter or grand-daughter perhaps if they’re calling her that too) and it’s possible someone might know where this dog came from just off of age and if she has “lost” her papers…
They’re wonderful dogs, and wow, I would be less than pleased to read that ad. I’m so glad you got her out of there!
You guys are so gullible and naive. Do you really think that a hundred plus horse barn would keep a trainer around if she beat a horse to death. All I can say is you should have to take an IQ Test before you are allowed to post anything on the internet. There was no beating taken place there, I can assure you. Is this all it takes, is someone to throw a little dirt out there and you guys just gobble it up. If this is true, where is the evidence? There is none! Alisija did not beat the horse at all. The horse just freaked out. He has always been able to break away before so he saw no reason to give up. Unfortunately the rope did not break this time. No one said not to strait tie this horse. By the way, this sweet beautiful horse could not even be tied at the age of 10. Ask yourself why? Not only that, but the whole reason this horse came to Alisija was because the last time the owner rode him, he flipped over and almost landed on her in the ring. The lady did not witness or come up with any proof that this was done. It is only a belief that this is what she did. That is all. And you guys are so gullible to take it and run. This is what is wrong with our country. A bunch of ignorant people who believe anything they want to with no FACTS. Well I am here if you have any questions about what happened. I can give you some Facts. If you even care about the facts!
Hi Alisija’s husband!
You do realize I can see your e-mail address as the blog owner, right?
“You guys are so gullible and naive. Do you really think that a hundred plus horse barn would keep a trainer around if she beat a horse to death.”
Ask us about Cleve Wells, sunshine. We KNOW they would.
By the way, “straight” is how you spell it. Strait is a country singer! You’re welcome for the spelling lesson.
And many people here have horses who do not tie, and respect that quirk, and have not managed to kill the horse in attempting to correct it. Again, I am a proud member of the Ain’t Killed Any! Club. So sad that your wife is not. Have fun with that lawsuit. I’d be happy to assist the owner’s lawyers on a pro bono basis if they need a kick ass litigation paralegal!
I am not trying to hide who I am. I just want you guys to know that these are lies. We will handle this any way the owner likes. But apparently she just wants to make up stories and spread them all over the internet. Still, it does not make it true. I would think that a para legal should have learned this by now. Have a Merry Christmas!
I’m absolutely confident it IS true, otherwise it wouldn’t be on my blog. Apparently a number of people have seen your wife throw temper tantrums when working with various horses. Perhaps she thought she was invisible while doing so?
I can confirm, as a person who boards (has boarded with Callegari for @ 10 yrs), that a horse did die due to injuries incurred from a training incident that went terribly wrong. I do not have any new information to add as so much is in the midst of uncertainty and buried under rumors which contradict themselves. As we all know, horses are powerful animals with a strong fight or flight instinct. Take away one option (flight), and you have a frightened 1200 lb horse in a panic state with few options.
If I had proof of such wrongdoing as tying a horse and beating it (and I do not have any such information), I would not sit back quietly in fear. Nor would the majority of the other 135 horses’ owners. I can say that this is NOT something this horse community, as a whole, would allow. The image of Callegari that we try to promote *through our actions* is one of a family-oriented, *safe,* and fun environment where people of all ages, disciplines and levels of experience are warmly welcomed. This is a horse community where the vast majority of horses are pets and loved as family members. As was posted above by someone in denial, this is a stables that now houses approximately 135 horses, plus their respective owners, families who come with children to have riding lessons, etc. Secrets don’t stay secret in this kind of atmosphere.
Yeah, I have never heard anything bad about Callegari before. Hopefully they will can her and distance themselves from this quickly. I’m surprised it did not already happen. Did you notice Alisija’s husband is now saying it wasn’t a training incident, that instead the horse was tied to the tree to get a bath? Just curious…so you guys don’t have any wash racks there? Not really believing that one!
According to their website: So we offer 9 different types of wash racks…
It’s amazing how rumors grow, isn’t it? Anyone ever play the game at a party? It can be fun. One person writes down several sentences, then whispers them to the person next to him. It goes all around the circle, then the last person speaks aloud what he has heard. It always bears no resemblance whatsoever to what was first written down. It’s good for a laugh,and also shows what happens each time a story gets told. Exagerrations are added, embelishments happens, a little tweaking for shock value, and before you know it, you’re light-years different from what actually happened. Such is the case here.
Alisija is a highly-discplined professional. She works very well with problem horses because she treats them consistently, firm but fair. She can and does take green horses and turn them into show winners, with no abuse and no “temper tantrums”. She is also absolutely fearless on even the hottest horses, the ones most of us don’t want to come within 30 feet of. She is gentle and caring with her students. It may appear to the casual observer that she raises her voice to them, but that’s because they are two hundred feet away in an arena and she wishes to be heard. Nothing wrong with that. If you want to win in the show ring, Alisja is the teacher of choice.
There has been a huge misjudgement of her character in here and on other websites, and I speak from personal experience, not something I heard or read. She was devastated by the death of that horse. Horses are her life. She will carry the death of the horse her whole life, and the attitudes and statements I’ve seen toward her here and on other websites are cruel as well as misinformed. It was an accident, and no more than that. The statement accompanying the video stirred the emotions of many, but was a fabrication on the part of its creator. You’ll notice it’s no longer there, now that the truth has come to light. I ask that those in here who have been so quick to judge take another look at the situation, and draw their own conclusions, rather than reacting emotionally to the words “horse beaten” without first knowing all the facts.
I do not believe there has been a huge misjudgment of her character. Too many people have stories of her losing her temper both at humans and animals. Whether or not she was responsible for THIS horse’s death will be proven one way or another in court, but I sure as HELL wouldn’t let her touch an animal of mine after what I have now read from multiple individuals. And no, it’s not one person with a bunch of screen names – the locations are diverse.
Yes, the locations are diverse. How many of them are right here in Cypress, Texas? How many of them actually know Alisija and the Callegaris? I have a first hand account of the accident from her. Not rumors. Not something I read in a blog. She did tie the horse there for a bath because he was a problem horse, and refused to enter any of the normal wash stalls. This is not an unusual location; some boarders prefer to wash their horses there. As soon as the water touched his shoulder, the horse began to freak out. He fought the tree, trying to free himself. Alisija, though she had tied a quick release knot, could not get close enough to free him. He set back, then came forward, fracturing his own skull, and sustained a large gash on his head. That’s where the blood came from. Alisija told me the first thing that came into her mind was that the horse was going to need stitches, not realized the severity of the injury. She ran to get something to try to cut the rope, and when she returned the horse appeared to have settled down. She cut the halter, and the horse took a few steps, then died. There was no beating or whip involved. There are no marks of abuse on the body. And there is no witness. The imaginary witness has evaporated completely. I suspect someone may have come to the realization that she was going to be committing perjury, and backed out. But that’s another story.
Whether you like her or not, Alisija is as straight an arrow as they come. She’s no liar. The opinions listed on this blog have been devastating to her and to the Callegaris, who have done absolutely nothing wrong, and who run an excellent boarding stable. No abuse of horses of any kind is tolerated at this stable. Anyone who mistreats horses, and this did happen once several years ago, is asked to leave.
I challenge any stable this size (135 horses) to match the Callegari stables safety record, of only 2 horse deaths in 8 years, the one listed above, and one case in which a horse died after being kicked by another in the pasture. The place is designed for safety, with Barnmaster barns, and safety fencing.
Has anyone wondered why they’ve not seen an account of this incident of the news? That’s because the owner, in an apparent attempt to create trouble for the Callegaris, called the news station and had them send out a reporting team. After talking to the people involved, the station realized there was no story. The news media is charged with the responsibility of reporting facts, not rumors, or malacious innuendo. (Some have their own political leanings, but that too is another story). The only place this story is spreading is on the internet, between individuals. If you’re curious, you can pick up Houston news from anywhere on the internet. You won’t see a single word about this, and our stations down here are drawn to stories of animal abuse like moths to streetlights. A box of puppies left beside the road can merit a 5 minute story.
Believe me or not, it’s your choice. But it’s the absolute truth.
You are denying there is a witness when I know there is a witness and that witness has given a statement.
Sorry, you SAYING it isn’t so doesn’t make it true.
Nor does you saying there is one. The former “trainer” in question has been deleting her posts on other websites that refer to a witness. I wonder why she’d be doing that, if there really were one. There is actually quite a backstory to the “witness” propaganda. But that’s not what we’ll get into here.
Frankly, I don’t blame you for reacting to me as you have. The sight of a bloody tree and the words “horse beaten to death” hit us all where we live. We’re all horse lovers in here. This was the side of the story you heard first, and there was a bloody tree, and a dead horse. No one’s denying that. The problem is that what you heard simply isn’t the way it happened. There was NO beating, or abuse of any kind. Whether she was told not to tie the horse, I can’t say. I understand there are witnesses who will swear to it both ways. I am not one of them. The facts are: 1.There are no marks of abuse on the body 2. There is no witness to what happened, only Alisija herself. 3 The autopsy report showed the horse died of head and neck trauma exactly the type expected in a horse “setting back” and coming forward to impact a solid object.
Were it not for internet, the whole thing most likely would have been settled privately, with a small amount of money, say $500 or $600 changing hands for the value of the horse. An apology was offered at the time, contrary to what you may have heard or read. The owner’s response was “That’s not good enough”. And so the smear campaign started. It took a decade to build the reputation of Callegari Equestrian Center, but only a few weeks of misinformation on the internet to call that reputation into question. I’ve seen on other blogs that “the SPCA is out there all the time”. Totally false. It the ten years it has exsisted, the Callegari has been visited by the SPCA exactly twice. Once when an owner refused to have their horses feet trimmed (the horse was sold soon after and the new owner had them trimmed,
eliminating that complaint). The second time was when a foal had “grown into” a halter, and refused to be caught to have it removed. The barn owner herself finally managed to catch him and remove it. Sorry to disappoint those who would like to believe otherwise, but there is simply NO abuse going on at Callegari. They would not tolerate it. We would not tolerate it. It’s a family oriented place, where people go to enjoy their horses. It offers an excellent value for the money. The Callegaris respect all disciplines related to the various horse breeds, so whether you like to jump, or trail ride, or show you always feel welcome. The horses are all well-cared for and happy.
Due to the actions taken by two individuals (I’d like to call them malacious, but won’t) and the fact that when people read the gut-wrenching but untrue story and take it as gospel, the reputation of this facilility and the innocent people who own it has been damaged, perhaps irrepairably. That will be a matter for another trial which will follow. I am here to tell that side of the story, to give people a chance to make up their own minds. And to stop and consider that just maybe Alisija is not a horse eating monster, but a victim herself, first as a party to a tragic accident, and second to a witch hunt.
And that, my friends, is the truth.
I genuinely don’t believe there has been any unfair smear campaign here, but again, things will come out in the lawsuit.
I’ve let everybody speak their piece for a reason. It is always a good thing to do that.
I’ve talked to people that have seen this on the news. I don’t live in Texas now because the military decided Japan was where I needed to be. I believe this story namely because you guys are just now popping up. Seems a little dubious to me. There are many people who say they’ve seen her bad side. She wasn’t always at Callegari’s.
“” Like!!!!”" now where is that ‘like’ button?? With all the wonderful trainers out there, why?
“We will handle this any way the owner likes.”
Great! Glad you are stepping up. I assume that she can take that as your written confirmation that you and your wife will be writing a check for the full value of the horse (as determined by a professional who is NOT you or your wife) plus emotional damages, plus any vet bills incurred, plus any court costs incurred so far? Additionally, I assume that is also your promise in writing that the owner will receive a sincere apology from your wife along with her promise not to work with any horse or other animal until she has completed lengthy anger management training and received a therapist’s approval to work with animals again–perhaps even on medication to control herself.
I sure know that’s what I’d like if a trainer murdered my horse. Actually, I’d like to put a captive bolt in the trainer’s forehead, but barring that, the above would do. But I’m glad that you’re committing here in writing on a public blog where your real name and identity are known to meet the owner’s demands! That’s a very stand-up move and I’m sure you’ll be back on track in no time once your wife has paid down that debt and finished her therapy. You should consider some, too, to find out what in your own psyche makes you willing to not only wed but defend an animal abuser.
Wonderfully said! If only, right?
I believe it will be the owner offering an apology, along with her former trainer. It was an accident and nothing more.
Had it been handled privately between the owner/trainer/Callegaris there would have been no issue. However, the video and the misleading commentary with it have now attracted national attention, if only on internet blogs. People tend to react at gut level to the words “horse beaten to death” without first checking out the facts. For example, let’s suppose I logged on here and stated that my 5 year old daughter had been beaten, raped and left in a ditch to die. Perhaps I’d even post a picture. People in here would be sending me sympathy and condolences as fast as their fingers could fly, and in equal parts condemn the allegeded assailant. The fact is that I have no daughter. But that got a gut reaction, didn’t it? People can say anything at all on the internet, and behind their anonymous names, they do. However, when it damages a business’ hard-earned reputation, that crosses a line. And those who called the video “the aftermath of animal abuse” and listed “facts” which are erroneous at best and malacious at worst, before it was proven to be so in a court of law will regret having done so.
Most of you only heard one side of the story before making a judgement. The court will decide, based on the facts, but until they do, it would behoove everyone to at least consider the other side of the story. When it comes to horse accidents, it can happen to anyone at any time. I’m a horse owner too, and there but for the grace of God go I.
No, everybody heard BOTH sides because the Callegaris ran their mouths at great length on their web site and all of that was posted here to the comments. Everybody has had their say except the owner, who seems to be the ONLY ONE smart enough to STFU and let her attorney handle it.
I agree, I bought a 21 year old mare 8 yrs ago who “didn’t tie” I knew this when I bought her but bought her anyway. We tried to work on the issue, but never could fix it. She never did tie, and she never did die either! She is now 29 and retired to the coast here in NC, and she still does NOT TIE. She is a very nice well bred QH with a great disposition. If you can sit on her you can ride her. But to this day if you tie her she will panic nearly instantly. Why? I have no clue, but I sure wasn’t going to kill her trying to teach her.
“Straight” = a line with no curves.
“Strait” = tightly restrained. As in, straitjacket. Straitlaced (like in a corset). Dire straits = you’re stuck in a nasty tight situation. When referring to a body of water, a “strait” is a narrow channel. It’s confined by the land around it.
The confusion of these two words always makes my teeth hurt.
And really, a known rearer should NEVER be tied so that it could get hung up!! Even if no one is beating it. There should always be an “out.” Pressure, release. That’s Rule #1 of horse training. Also, tying a horse to a tree near the road? Does not this large boarding stable have cross ties or hitching posts? Yeah, the whole setup is fishy, even before any “alleged” beating.
This barn looks pretty dubious to begin with anyway. And if you’re a boarder, and care about your horse, I totally don’t fault witnesses for not immediately coming forward. Crazy horsepeople do really nasty things to other people’s horses as revenge.
Ok I get it. I understand how to spell straight. The reason the horse was tied to the tree was to get a bath guys. That is all. The owner instructed the trainer NOT to CROSS TIE the horse. The horse could not be but is a wash rack. He was in training for his second month and been tied to that tree many times. If he decided to break away then he broke away. The owner was told about this and laughed saying that he does this kind of thing all of the time. She was well aware that the horse was being tied to a tree. She is also well aware that the horse was not being wipped at all. It is unfortunate that the horse could not break away this time. He saw no reason to give up and worked himself up to a full panic. You guys have to know that this is the truth. If this is just a good old fasion which hunt, then I can understand why no one cares about the facts. But you people are looking for the truth that is it. I appolgize in advance if I mis-used any more words.
Again, so Callegari – a huge and apparently lovely facility – does not have wash racks and we tie horses to trees to bathe them as if we were in a backyard in Arkansas?
ooooohkay…keep it coming.
Okay, I don’t reply much but REALLY? 135 boarders and NO WASH RACKS? Come on, give me an f-ing break! I have 4 horses, 4! I don’t board, they are on my own property and I HAVE A WASH RACK! Seriously? Any boarding facility has a wash rack. Waves to never killing an animal by the way. I know of the barn because I spent many of my teen years showing and riding in Texas – had no idea they were such a trash barn. I have only boarded horses at my now much older age until recently when I just couldn’t tolerate someone else caring for my animals so we bought a farm. The first thing we put in the barn (a modified amish style barn) were cross ties for grooming, tacking, etc. The next was to put up a wash rack (again, modified slightly because of the property style) but still a wash rack. I have a (now) 7 month old rescue and let me tell you, it is much easier to take the time to teach them to tie (the right way) than it is to wrestle with a hose and a warmblood foal who thinks the hose just might eat him. We have the quick release – on the wall, not the halter, threats to the eye are like a plane crash, few and far between, I would rather have a lead to catch on the escape than dare the tiny panicked hooves – and we never leave unattended but for a barn of that size and of the caliber they have earned (?) bought (?) for themselves, ridiculous! I grew up on a horse farm (Danish Warmbloods) and we also had some of my father’s family’s percherons, they all tied WELL. Never to a tree, however! No bashed in skulls in the many many years of our farm’s existence. No real bad accidents either from training to tie. Why? Because we did not take stupid, idiotic, moronic chances like that! One thing you learn about the “Gentle Giants” and warmbloods as well is that, although they act as though they do not know how big they are, they do, never forget, they DO. If you were to play the “tie it up and beat it” game, YOU WILL LOSE, so will the wall, post, fence, tree, that they are tied to! My other animal, a wonderfully trained warmblood is 1800 lbs of gentle, mischievious love, he knows how big he is, so do I. He will not fight a tie but DO NOT THREATEN HIM! This will make him fight ANYTHING! These are prey animals, these are big animals, even the smaller breeds, threat=harm, to themselves or to you. Why, oh God, why would you tie one up (which he clearly is deathly afraid of) and then threaten and harm him? What part of your brain is not connecting? I am no fan of Natural horsemanship, I do think it’s great on the ground but otherwise, questionable, but maybe it is not such a bad thing for idiots such as these to help them get a grip on the idea that these are prey animals with a flight instinct. The only thing predictable about a horse is their unpredictability! Duh, duh and a big fat DUH! To stand and let a horse bash its brains in makes that trainer an absolue imbecile! I think I may have ranted enough on this but come on! REALLY! My family has been involved in horses for over 60 years in this country, longer in Denmark and it’s not rocket science! No dead horses from training to tie, not in the 60 years that I can confirm, betting even more! Rant over, trying to keep my head from exploding!
As far as the “horses are not expensive” thing, give me an f-ing break, I don’t have children so I have horses, to compare them with my two dogs would be a joke, feed and hay aside (I have 20 acres of grazing pasture for 4 horses) but vet, farrier, trainer, occasional chiropractor for the dressage boy, saddle fittings, show enries, supplements, treats . . . should I continue? No comparison to a dog or cat, no such thing as a cheap horse. Even my adopted mini, the proverbial “free horse” costs me several hundred a month! I am in Florida so similar pasture seasons to Houston, nope, nope and NOPE, not cheap, no year-round grass and, contrary to their beliefs, you really do have to feed them, even minis who get fat on air will get skinny with NOTHING. My God, my brain really is melting – now the rant really is over.
Agreed. More to the point, the area around the tree was not wet. The area where she had been holding the horse was (by the railroad ties). The blood on the tree was not a splash, it was an embedded circle, indicative of repeated contact.
I could get into what happened, but I wasn’t there. So I’ll tell you what I know without ever meeting the horse, the owner, or the trainer.
1. You don’t force TBs to tie when they have a history of breaking free. I can’t ever imagine hard tying one in such a way that it couldn’t get free. These are thin skinned hot blooded animals with an accelerated flight instinct. A Shetland pony, maybe. A TB, never.
2. This horse had a history of not tying well. The owner and trainer knew it. The fact that the horse wasn’t cross tied in a wash rack, and that you admit the trainer and owner conversed regarding the horse’s previous tying antics confirms it. I’ve been surprised by horses who suddenly pulled back. I’ve never been ‘surprised’ by a chronic puller. It’s the chronic part, you see.
3. You don’t tie to trees. You don’t tie dogs to trees, you don’t tie goats to trees, and you don’t tie horses to trees. Unless of course you can afford to lose said animal when it winds itself around the tree and breaks its silly neck.
4. When you are a trainer, sooner or later a horse is going to be seriously hurt or killed while in your care. I’ve literally walked out into a paddock holding a single individual horse, to find that horse irreparably injured, all by himself, with no outside help. With that capacity for injury, it becomes every single horse handler’s job to minimize risk at all times. If you are training, and you don’t know the three points I’ve made above number four, then you have failed in basic horse husbandry.
In other words, accidents do happen. Remember the youth horse that flipped over in the wash rack at a show, and killed itself? Tragic, horrible. But a bloody tree with bark off it, away from where the horse was actually being rinsed, tells me that I’m not looking at a tragic accident. I’m looking at a breakdown in the basic code of horse care: Anything that can go wrong will go wrong, so prepare and expect problems. Learn to negate problems.
I’m not even a big name trainer with megahorses in my barn, and I’m smart enough to know this rule.
Hi guys. Had to let you know of some truth that is coming out on youtube by the same lady that started this video. here is the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi0zJrPxNyY
And about the wash rack. This horse would have loved for you to even try to put him in a wash rack. We would be discussing a death of a human not a horse. He had been washed on this same tree with the permission of the owner already before.
Agreed, The_One. I certainly wouldn’t risk my life or safety by attempting to free a panicking horse. My own got her legs caught under the fence rail while rolling recently and there was not a thing I or my friend could do without putting ourselves in serious danger. She did manage to free herself, injuring her leg a bit in the process, and clearly not listening to me yelling “Whoa!”
As to the amount of blood on the tree, what you are looking at is not much, perhaps 8-10 ounces. It spreads out and drips down upon impact. And head wounds, serious or not, tend to bleed profusely because of the vascular supply there. Ask any vet.
The fact there are no “beating” marks on the body says it all. Some horses tend to panic, some of the time, when tied. I understand this one panicked as soon as the water touched his shoulder. Alisija had no opportunity to free him without risking her own life and safety. The horse “set back”, and came forward hard enough to fracture his own skull, as shown by the autopsy. Had he continued to set back, he likely would have broken the halter, and none of us would be discussing this now. But that’s a speculation on my part.
I don’t think it’s fair of anyone to expect Alisija to have risked her life in an effort to free this horse. It’s also an injustice to call this a “crime scene” before it has been proven to be one. Right now, and until proven otherwise, it’s the site of an accident. Innocent until proven guilty is the law in this country, unless the law is different in fhotd. I would hope not. Right now, all the facts point to Alisija’s innocence. Anyone who works around horses knows that even the best of them will panic under the right circumstances, and some panic with almost no reason at all.
Ugly rumors started by the owner and trainer (and there is written proof of this) have resulted in this case going viral on the internet, and there will no doubt be several lawsuits filed. Alisija will be found not guilty, because there is no witness, and no marks on the horse to indicate he was beaten. The other lawsuits will involve the Callegaris and Alisija against the owner and the owner’s trainer, and will likely not go well for them, because there is abundant evidence of libel/slander/disparagement of business. We tend to take such things seriously here in Texas.
Even if someone was stupid enough to believe that – bathing doesn’t require tying. If the animal is in such a state, and clearly it didn’t instantly die, this was something that went beyond accident – it was clear negligence, as soon as things went south, that was when the trainer steps up and ends the situation. To do nothing I would think is animal cruelty – and that stands regardless of the story, be it a ”bath” or a training accident. There is a clear duty of care from any animal trainer to the animal’s welfare, and clearly this wasn’t shown in this case.
I had a horse who was bad to tie, guess what, I could bathe him, groom him, tack him up – really do everything without needing to tie him up. Because his safety was much more important than the minor amounts of extra work involved in not tying (namely holding a leadrope, or having someone else there to hold him). And after many years, this animal did tie up. Because we slowly introduced it, tying him when he thought he was being held by someone. It’s not difficult, it’s just not something that happens over night. And this was a horse that had previously flipped over under another owner when tied.
There is no excuse or defence for the trainer in this instance, it’s clear animal cruelty regardless of whatever she was trying to accomplish. A lawsuit should be brought because that horse’s death was something that was needless and happened only because an arrogant fuckwit decided to impose her will on a horse over all thoughts of safety and welfare. She deserves everything she gets, and should NEVER work with horses again.
And it did not occur to anybody to cut him loose….why?
And you do not have spellcheck ???
I can tell you I don’t have “stupid” written on my forehead. I have a horse that I was told NEVER to tie. After many years of patient handling I can now tie my mare to my trailer, or to a tree. When she used to freak out she would go BACKWARDS. I’ve never seen a horse in all my years go forward and KILL itself! Give me a break. No horse is going to bang itself against a tree over and over until it kills itself. No, wait, unless the horse is DRIVEN into that tree by a beating and had no choice but to go forward to TRY to get away. The amount of blood on that tree tells a story here. If there wasn’t blood then I could believe the horse flipped over BACKWARDS and could have killed itself. Don’t worry, your stupid piece of crap of a wife will have to pay. If not in this life then in the next. Personally, I hope it’s in this life so that the whole horse world can see her for what she is. This makes me so sick….
Hey, by the way, why don’t you tell us what DID happen??!! Explain to us how that horse died and why there is so much blood on the tree. Do you dare tell the truth??? I know it will be a lie but I’d LOVE to hear your explanation.
I have. My gelding was at a trainers and tied to a trailer. He set back, panicked, then charged forward and broke his forehead on the bars on the trailer. He is fortunate that he didn’t die on the spot, but he does sport a lovely large dent in the middle of his head now. It’s pretty stupid to ever say never with horses. They do crazy things and when in a panic, all bets are off.
‘ The horse just freaked out. He has always been able to break away before so he saw no reason to give up. Unfortunately the rope did not break this time. No one said not to strait tie this horse.’
Uh if the horse ‘has always been able to break away’ you do not up the ante by tying them to a TREE, from which they certainly can not break free without harming themselves.
The owner really had to tell you not to tie the horse when you yourself write ‘He has always been able to break away before so he saw no reason to give up ‘? Really? Seems obvious to me.
I can not imagine being a witness to this and not stopping it, but perhaps witness is afraid of the trainer and what she might do to a person or their horse who interfered?
Sad any way you slice it. Who the hell still has a horse boarded there I wonder? I would have stuffed my horse in the hatch back to get him out of there if I had to!
Wow, right on cue! Wannabe, you called it — do you do any other kind of predicting, like, say horse races LOL?
There is ZERO excuse for that bloody tree. There is another emergency tool that all horse pros should carry on their bodies- and that is a knife. I happen to to carry a multi purpose tool (think swiss army knife) that has a knife and a wire cutter on it. You can even find very thin folding knives that will fit in the zip pockets of riding breeches.
But you guys are in TX right? There isn’t an AC officer with any experience with horses who won’t know that.
FHOTD: I’m a member of the “I had a horse flip out and not give up while tied but it ended without incident because I cut it loose- AIN’T KILLED ANY CLUB”
It shocks me how many horse owners don’t carry a blade of some description, I always do. I’ve also had to use it – and the quick ability to free up a bad situation becomes clear, as the ”what ifs” pile up.
We also have wire fencing and all our vehicles have wire cutters, because we must use those fences and thus we take precautions and plan for the worst. Safety of the horses is paramount.
Fugs, your comment brings up an OT but relevant question… what exactly is your privacy policy when you have people’s real names? Most sites that collect usernames and email addresses to register have a stated privacy policy. You tend to out people you don’t agree with and it seems fairly arbitrary. Though you’ve stated in the past that you wouldn’t give up account info unless it was court ordered, it seems that it is “unless it’s court ordered and/or I feel like it.”
Yes, yes, I know. Your blog, you can do what you like. It’s very easy to sign up an email account with someone’s name and then use it to register here, so the potential argument that you only do it when people are misrepresenting themselves is shaky at best. Requiring email addresses for a username registration and then outing people’s identity if you don’t like them is shitty.
And finally, is there a way to delete your FHotD posting account and along with it any personal information entered at the time of registration?
“Fugs, your comment brings up an OT but relevant question… what exactly is your privacy policy when you have people’s real names?”
If you give me information about an animal abuser, I’m not going to out you.
If you ARE the animal abuser or their spouse or their defender, I’m more than happy to provide your info and your words to anyone and everyone. I mean, don’t be so damn stupid you register with your real name in your e-mail address if you want to be anonymous. Yahoo is free and making a new address takes 30 seconds.
You may think I’m shitty for outing him but I don’t think that compares in shittiness to his wife killing a horse. It’s all a matter of perspective.
I’m fairly sure you can delete an account here. Log in and look around. It’s the typical Word Press set up – except for the theme, I haven’t altered it in any way.
I have a question that kind of goes along these lines. You’ve mentioned before how you have the IP address. If you are using a laptop and log in from somewhere other than your home, wouldn’t the IP address be wherever you are? Around me there are many places I can log in to the internet at, all are free and don’t require me to sign in and let people know who I am or that I’m using their internet service. Would they be liable for something I said while under their IP address? Just curious since I don’t know how IP addresses work…
It’s not easy to trace someone by I.P. but it is possible with the cooperation of the internet service provider, which usually only happens in criminal matters. It’s VERY unlikely an ISP would “give you up” because you allegedly defamed someone on the Internet. Your ISP knows who you are – I don’t. If you’re in a coffee shop, library, etc. the I.P. address proves nothing unless there’s a login system that forces you to identify yourself before going online (like when you swipe your credit card in an internet cafe).
And, yes, every time there is a criminal case – let’s say child pornography – the defense always is IT WASN’T ME! My wife/kid/mailman/dog used the computer! But let’s face it, most people cover their tracks for shit…if you are doing really evil things online, you will get busted.
The only reason I mention having it (or indeed do log it) is that I have gotten threats of physical violence and sometimes people here have made threats of physical violence to others, and if there ever was an incident, it is a way of helping to prove the identity behind the screen name.
Generally what an IP address is useful for is telling if somebody is using sock puppets… if they’re logging in under multiple names and making an argument or talking to themselves. (Like “identity1″ might sign in and comment, and then “identity2″ comments to say “yes, I agree with identity1, he’s brilliant!” and so on.) In that case you can see that all of these “people” are commenting from the same IP and are probably in fact the same person. Helps to eliminate trolling. But no, it’s generally not useful for tracking down the exact person who left the comment… it’s not like CSI where you can just say, “Backtrace the IP! Enhance! He’s at 44 Some Street, let’s go get him!” However, if (like me) you’re commenting from work or something like that, where the IPs are more likely to be static, IP addresses can tell people things like where you work…. so if you’re claiming not to be affiliated with whatever person you’re defending, and it turns out you’re commenting from an IP address that points directly at that person’s business, that’s a pretty big clue.
Well, there’s always proxys…
But I doubt someone who is “just” a troll would go to a proxy, log in, comment, log out, go to another proxy, log in, comment, log out…
Well, you get my drift.
For me, the bottom line is only bad people hide IPs or create new accounts through Hotmail, Yahoo, etc. just to comment.
On the other hand, if you’re legitimately researching something that you don’t want them to be able to backtrack you, use a free proxy. There are some REALLY nasty people out there that would find you and harass you to NO end because you simply disagree with them. Trust me, been there, done that.
So it’s completely arbitrary. Of course I think it’s shitty that a horse died, but there are also several sides to any story and the poster presented one of them, just not the one you like. Your readers are reasonable people and we can generally spot bullshit from a mile away without you giving away people’s identity just because you don’t like what they have to say. Why not just respect privacy and let us sort it out?
Anyone can go to gmail or hotmail or yahoo and register a username that is the same or similar to anyone else’s name in the world. You may be outing an alleged abuser or you may be falling for someone posing as that person.
And if you’re not actually interested in respecting the privacy of your readers/posters, you ought to be forthcoming about that in the sign up process. I can’t login to WordPress with the username and password I use here and it is not at all obvious how to delete an account. It would be fantastic if you could let us know how to do so.
Google it.
Fugs, I do have to say one thing. Barnyardpunch makes a point with the “anyone can create an email / login in someone elses’ name” and pretend to be them. I had it happen to me.
Sure, I’ve been impersonated too – many times!
However, you can often verify by, for example, googling the e-mail address and seeing where else it’s been used.
Yeah, I know that, but this is the truth…
Not sure if you remember who I used to blog about… but I obviously pissed “someone” off (please don’t name names in case they have google alerts).
I have my email cheriecalgary at hotmail dot com. They created an account cherieclagary at hotmail dot com. Pretty similar.
They went around and created accounts with that hotmail account, pretending to be me. And it wasn’t regular nasty stuff, it was bestiality nasty, racist nasty, disgusting stuff. The screen names were cheriecalgary because of course I didn’t already have accounts on those boards (duuuh). Oh, and I was an alcoholic, drug addicted anorexic (BTW, if you saw a pic of me, at least the anorexic part would OBVIOUSLY be a lie lol).
There ARE bad people out there. I’m sure you’ve dealt with lots of them, since you are so open about who you are. Kudos to you, really. But not everyone (including me) can really deal with that sort of stuff. Especially when my horses are threatened.
Just sayin’…
Oh I hear you…I have been threatened, my horses have been threatened. The VLC literally has armed security. There are WACKOS out there.
Actually, it appears that you are not using the WordPress service, just running the software. If you were, you would have violated its own privacy policy by revealing personal information about its registrants. Because you’re running the software, but not using the legitimate WordPress, I’m assuming you own the database of posters here and their information. This really should be made crystal clear when people provide such information to you. Especially to the non-abusing, law abiding good people that read this blog.
As I say with most things, if you don’t like it, feel free to sue me. Of course you will have to prove you’ve been damaged, good luck on that.
I think this probably comes under a stupidity clause.
If you are stupid enough to incriminate yourself in a post on the internet with proof (email, IP), then no-one is obliged to protect your ass. No one forces anyone to post on this blog or any other website online, it’s a choice. If that choice is to admit cruelty or provide evidence of a crime, then hell mend you, you’ll learn the next time. Don’t talk about shit on the net you don’t want the world to know.
I fully support websites providing information if asked, and many websites have it in their T&C that not only can they disclose information provided (emails, ip addresses) but they can use the content you post! Not only that – the law of the land can make websites give up information if they feel a site holds something key to a case.
So yeah, if you don’t want things shared – don’t post on the net. Simples!
Like I say all the time, I couldn’t comment on it if YOU did not post it on youtube, your web site, your facebook, etc.
I do not hold a gun to these peoples’ heads and make them do stupid, irresponsible, cruel or negligent things.
BarnyardPunch, why would you be concerned about protecting your identity in things like this?
Personally, whatever I say and do on the internet, I’d be happy to repeat in front of an audience. My name is Laura Rose. I’m a librarian and teacher living in Wisconsin.
I applaud Fugly for outing the husband. If she hadn’t, I might have thought The_One was an impartial observer giving his two cents. Now I know his information is biased, and therefore I have a better perspective on what to believe. Mr. Granger said, “I’m not trying to hide” but never referred to Alisija as his wife, or even by name, even after Fugly called him out. He’s called her “the trainer” in every one of his excuses. Yay for Fugly for letting us know who’s talking, because here on the internet, it’s too easy to hide and make up lies. Even “Letters to the Editor” columns these days require your name and home city to be published with your letter, so everyone knows who’s talking. These measures are just good reporting.
Now, if you, BaryardPunch, want your right to privacy protected, I’m all for it– but then you may not want to be on the internet, and you certainly shouldn’t be on a blog where you KNOW people are outed. You can’t play in the ocean and then complain about being wet.
On to the issue at hand:
Let’s say all the stories are true, and somehow:
1) The trainer DID know and was okay with her horse being tied, despite other evidence according to interestedparty1
2) This was, in fact, a bath and not a “lesson,” again apparently despite other evidence
3) Alisija did decide to use a tree instead of a wash rack, for whatever reason
…Mrs. Granger is STILL criminally negligent for not using proper equipment, not recognizing that the horse was nervous and then panicking, not quick-release tying the horse, and not saving its life during what must have been fairly lengthy struggles. Why lengthy struggles? Because a horse making a movement powerful enough to kill itself quickly (i.e. a huge blow to the head or spinal cord) wouldn’t leave that much blood, thus, struggling enough to leave that much blood takes time.
The only question here is whether intentional abuse was involved, and I think it would be easy enough to tell by looking for whip marks on the body. Maybe interestedparty1 or someone else can provide us with info on the necropsy??
I have protected BarnyardPunch for all eternity by removing her and all of her previous comments from the blog. I am happy knowing she will rest easier tonight!
That is hilarious…
I’m sure all is right in her world again.
http://36andsingle.blogspot.com/
That is what happened to my friends horse who she tied to a tree while she cleaned his stall. He tied very well so she didn’t think it would be a problem. Unfortunatly, he walked around and around the tree until his head was right up against the tree. Of course, not being able to figure it out and “unwind” himself, he panicked and tried to pull away. He broke his neck instead. You don’t have to beat a horse, or encourage it to pull, to have them panick, set back, freak, and break their own necks. Another friend tied her horse to her trailer at a show. For some reason, he set back, and when he couldn’t get loose, he leaped forward, hit his face on the metal tie ring, and smashed all the bones over his sinus in. I could see how someone could just tie a horse up, with the intent of teaching it to tie, and having the unthinkable happen – as long as they were not beating it or encouraging it to pull back. I know of a number of horses who just did something stupid, with no one touching them, and they still killed themselves. But, most “professionals” would have tied with something that had a little give in it such as a the Blocker tie ring, an inner tube, an overhead line, or to a solid wall where it would have been impossible for the horse to walk around the tree until the rope held it’s head tight against it. To tie a known puller up to a tree, you would have to know that there was going to be some real action happen. As a trainer with a client’s horse, I think I would have found a safer way to try to break the habit and cut the rope as soon as it looked like the outcome was not going to be good.
I have seen similar occurances, but, when a horse winds itself around a tree and their head is pinned to the tree, physics do not allow it the room to bash its head in, it breaks its neck, again, a horse panicked by pressure or confinement pulls BACK, it does not go forward. I have tried so hard to be open, but there is simply NO REASON for the blood on the tree unless something forced it forward, that would be fear from beating. He would suffocate, break his neck or break the halter, even the most “unbreakable” halter WILL break. The logic behind this is that something forced him forward.
Oh Kathy! Aren’t you a doll!! Thanx for outting this piece of garbage trainers’ “other half”. So 1The_One1 says
“…Well I am here if you have any questions about what happened. I can give you some Facts….”
Okay. So what happened? What is the story on why the tree is covered in blood? What happened to make the owner of this horse think that something was so awry that they feel they have enough evidence to sue your wife? We are certainly interested in the facts. I believe that Kathy asked for that when she first put this post up. That someone who knows the facts would step up and divulge them. So please indulge us. Tell us what happened and why this has become a story about a trainer who clearly cannot ride well from her own photos on your website, that has been ‘rumored’ to have beaten a horse that would not tie and the horse died. We are interested in the facts. Every one here who has lurked, read, posted and such, is clearly interested in the facts so please present your side of the story. Please include whether you were physically present during the incident and if so, what you witnessed. If you were not present please just tell us what you were told or have derived from first party accounts as told to you.
THANK YOU! Why oh why do people accused insist they could give us “the facts” instead of ACTUALLY DOING DO? Yes, PLEASE tell us the other side of the story! But instead, the accused acts as if there is some big SEEKRIT FACTS that would absolve all blame, if only they were able to state them. If these darn “facts” are so damning, why the secret? Why the childish attitude, “I know something you don’t know!”?
Yep. And if you read Trinityapps’ post, I think she nailed it in spades. Exactly why weren’t tying lessons taking place in the normal tying areas?
Uh-huh. Yep.
You guys are missing the point. This was was not a tying lesson. He was there to get a bath only. He has had it done the same way before. The horse just desided to panic very badly. There were no beatings boing on. He had always been able to break loose before this day and it just not happen that way on this day. The owner knew this horse was being straight tied to a tree. The instructions for this horse were not to cross tie him only.
The story is getting lamer and lamer. I am somehow not believing that this place does not have proper wash racks, and that you must tie horses to trees to give them baths.
But keep talking, by all means.
Of course there are multiple proper wash racks at Callegari. In fact, there is one about 30 feet to the left of the tree to which the horse was tied. There is also another about 50 feet to the right. There are others on the property as well, of various types. If for some reason the horse could not be bathed in a wash rack, she could certainly have held the lead rope and bathed him. And at Callegari there are always people around. Someone else could have held him while she bathed him. There was no need to tie him to a tree.
The OSU pony wasn’t good for baths but she got held in the wash rack the first time, and the second time I just ran the rope around the frame of the wash rack once so that I had a little leverage, and held it. That’s the safe way to do it – you have leverage but still can give and take and release in the event of a full fledged panic attack.
I don’t know why any of this event even happened as the owner seems adamant that she specifically TOLD the trainer not to try to tie the horse. But this is one of the problems with a lot of trainers: they do NOT follow the owner’s instructions. They go, oh that’s bullshit, I’LL teach his ass to tie. But that’s NOT WHAT THE OWNER WANTS AND THEY ARE THE OWNER. That horse in training with you IS NOT YOUR PROPERTY. You are obligated to do what the OWNER wants, not what YOU want. I see this conflict repeated time and time again, though usually not with results this poor.
I have not been at that barn for months. I do not have any direct knowledge of this particular incident. I do know what Alisija’s temper is like, having seen it and been subjected to it.
As far as the supporters’ assertions that there was no incident to the event:
This location is not in a secluded area of the property. It is in easy view of the parking lot, both large rings, the hot walker, and three barns. It’s also visible from the path that goes out to the trails and one/maybe both paths that go to the back of the property. It’s in easy hearing distance from the dressage ring and round pens. It would be very easy for someone to have witnessed the incident and not been noticed by others on the property. I don’t know if there actually was a witness, but I’m highly skeptical of the notion that there couldn’t possibly be one. The property is too large and there are too many vantage points to make that assertion.
As far as why the horse would be hosed off there:
The area is used to hose off horses, despite the fact that there are wash racks in all the barns. Some people prefer to hose on the grass so the water run off did something useful besides puddle and evaporate on concrete. Callegari often sent out emails during very dry spells recommending people hose off on the grass, in fact.
I never saw someone tie a horse to a tree when they did this; they usually just held their horse and hosed them off. I’m not condoning the incident or corroborating 1The_One1′s explanation. I am only saying that this area is, in fact, a preferred location to hose horses off for some people.
To paraphrase Shakespear: This writer doth protest too much, methinks
I refer to 1The_One1 as the writer
To the husband:
We are waiting with baited breath to hear the facts. Do tell. Explain to us how the stupid horse could’nt break the rope and killed himself and how nobody helped him in his terror. How the owner didn’t witness and cannot prove this happened. And how you sir, seem to think that this is a accepted way to handle horses, and the rest of us our gullible and naive. I have never understood how any living thing is sopposed to be scared so badly that it then wants to submit to the person or thing that is scaring it?? Please explain to us how that works cause I just dont understand. You need to supply us the facts because frankly at this point my sympathy still is with the dead horse. Your wife is looking pretty bad in all this. In fact a whole lot of people would like to treat her in the same way, which I am guessing is ok with you since this isnt anything to worry about.
I’m gonna play devil’s advocate here, but before I start, no, I have not had any animals die on me from being tied. And no, I am not related to anyone that this concerns, I don’t live in Texas, so don’t start hounding me about being on “their side”. I’m also not denying or saying that the horse is dead, I’m not there, so I don’t know.
What I do know is that there is no video proof of what happened, only the tree that was left afterwards and what the videographer has written in the comments on youtube, plus the comments on here. While ya’ll might take what is on here to be the truth, I have to look at both sides, until I see the actual proof, I can’t say if it was abuse that killed the horse because I don’t see a dead horse or the abuse.
The video shows marks on the ground, that are not really near the tree. Yes, the blood on the tree is a sign that something happened there, however, I have had blood on a tree before when a horse has hit its head. It didn’t hit its head from me slapping it with a whip and trying to get away, the horse simply sucked back, then released, and when she released she managed to scrape her head on the tree. No, it wasn’t as bloody as that, but still, it can happen.
Also, sadly since no one has video of the horse being abused, it is up in the air as to if this was an accident or abuse. Ya’ll might say that a horse couldn’t die from hitting their head on a tree once or twice, but what happens if you have a horse that hits it head and causes blunt force trauma to the head?
I guess I can’t just accept that abuse has to happen for a horse to die, is it abuse when a horse dies from colic, even though it was given Banamine and was being watched constantly? I’m just saying, not every death is a result of abuse/neglect.
Okay, there’s one thing I haven’t seen anyone else point out. Why is this horse, with sitting back issues, tied to a tree? I’ve had horses all of my life and, barring a few overnight trail rides with the ol pokey pony, haven’t ever felt the need to tie a horse to a tree. I have a barn, with a proper tie rail, wash rack, set of stocks, aisle with crossties etc.
Why on earth would ANYONE, with the facility and set up that this gal has access to, tie a horse to a tree? Tying to trees gets sap on your lead ropes, scars the tree, usually allows the horse to circle said tree, and when a rope tightens the bark grabs the rope and it can be impossible to get loose, even if you use a quick release knot.
The only reason to tie a horse to a tree, at a facilty that has all the amenities, is because you want to go somewhere private and beat the living shit out of a horse where the regularly incoming clientele won’t see it. You’re not going to have it out with a horse in the barn aisle where the kiddies can watch you go after Thunder’s ass like a rug beater. You’re not going to tie up to the wash rack, where the people cleaning up their horses after a ride are going to see you screaming and yelling and smacking the crap out of a horse. No, you’re going somewhere behind the barn, near a paddock, and find a big sturdy tree, with rope grabbing bark, and beat Thunder’s ass in private. And because you’re not real bright you didn’t follow the first rule that every horseman learns: Have something sharp on hand to cut the rope.
This was no accident. The choice of location shows premeditation and the need to hide one’s actions. If it didn’t then we’d be hearing about Thunder flipping over in a barn aisle and getting a concussion, not beating his head senseless on a tree when someone couldn’t get the over tightened rope loose.
“The only reason to tie a horse to a tree, at a facilty that has all the amenities, is because you want to go somewhere private and beat the living shit out of a horse where the regularly incoming clientele won’t see it. You’re not going to have it out with a horse in the barn aisle where the kiddies can watch you go after Thunder’s ass like a rug beater. You’re not going to tie up to the wash rack, where the people cleaning up their horses after a ride are going to see you screaming and yelling and smacking the crap out of a horse. No, you’re going somewhere behind the barn, near a paddock, and find a big sturdy tree, with rope grabbing bark, and beat Thunder’s ass in private.”
You know, I can’t believe I missed that obvious point. Who the FUCK ties to a tree when they’re not in the middle of nowhere on a trail ride?
IMO, you just nailed it…
Seriously? Because you don’t ever tie to a tree except when you’re out in the middle of nowhere, that no one else would EVER do it? ha. That’s funny. I know quite a few people who like the more relaxed hose down you get away from the wash rack. Not everyone is going for a show clean. One of my girls has an issue with the rubber mats, so we hose down or bathe next to the rack , you guessed it, tied to a tree. I don’t know about this place or the incident, but some of these comments are on a wide tangent and seem to only serve to rile people up on the wrong topic. Where are the facts?
(cathy – this message board is a little wierd. I ‘m typing, but all I see is the cursor moving across the screen all by itself. The words don’t show up until later. Is it my computer? or a quirk on this board?)
It’s you.
I’m in California, so maybe things are different here, but we don’t tie to trees unless they have rings set in them for tying or we are packing somewhere. In fact, most barns that do have trees specifically ask us NOT to tie to them, pointing out that they have tie rails and cross ties for the purpose of tying horses. In 20 years with horses, I’ve never once tied a horse to a tree, so I don’t find this such a strange comment to be made by fohtd.
Well, we up here have been known to tie to trees … during one of the summer boarding situations, when horses are tossed into an open field with hay and water supplied, and the tack shed consists of a 70s era ATCO trailer. Did I mention it’s a city of 25,000 or so, more than 2,000 km from a metropolitan area? In the far north? Also, we don’t have a single horse who doesn’t tie, and all knots are quick release. Most often, we just loop the halter rope around a tree twice — it’s not perfect, but it does the job. In the winter, in the actual riding arena, there are twine loops.
My point (I swear I had one) is that I’d expect a higher standard of a professional facility charging $500 a month in Houston or someone claiming to be classically trained.
Sometimes I like to take my rubber hoses and wire wrapped baseball bats out to the woods with me, but I have to hide them in my rolling trunk when I take them….It upsets the kids at the birthday parties and pony rides when I bring back bloody horses!!
Yes, you have a very good point
And I see dear hubs still has no response for us!
This is very, very disturbing. What can I, as a reader of your blog and not a professional horse person, just with horses as pets, do about this? Who can we write to or call, or do something about so this horrible abusive woman goes to jail?
She is being sued civilly which is great as it creates a permanent record of the incident. I’m thrilled that the owner didn’t just sit back and let it slide. GOOD OWNER.
Here is some truth starting to come out that verfy that I am not lying to you ms. fugly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi0zJrPxNyY
There was never any abuse. What you guys fell for is a good old fassioned LIAR!
Have a blessed day!
She has done that at other barns in the past…and there were witnesses.
I have an “I’m tied, therefore I MUST freak out” gelding. I’ve just found that I always have to use a break-away halter, a quick release knot, and panic snaps with him. He’s not nearly as bad as when I first got him, when it was a weekly thing to break stuff, but there’s no way I’d risk him breaking his neck.
I don’t board, and I don’t have a big fancy barn like that, so I have tied him to a tree a few times. I’ve never just LEFT him there by himself!! He’s always had a break away halter on (and one of those neck collar things with a lead rope attached so I can grab him once he’s free). Is it really so hard to accommodate a horse’s quirk? Those break away crown straps are only a couple dollars.
I’m horrified that someone would do that to a horse. Having seen what my gelding will do to get away, it shocks me that some one who is a “professional” would tie a horse to a tree, and let it kill itself, even if she wasn’t beating the shit out of it. Yeah, way to “train.” When you send your horse to a trainer, even if its a problem horse, you kind of expect them to work with a horse gradually. Not, “here’s a tree, a rope, and a halter you can’t break” poof magic fix. Unfortunately it always seems like a horse has to die for people to out a “trainer” like this. Yes, there are freak accidents but that really doesn’t look like one.
It looks even less like one the more the hubby talks…now the horse was tied to a tree to get a bath? Say WHAT?
I hope opposing counsel is reading this blog.
I also have a panic puller, and I’ve come to the same conclusion. I’ve seen some of the best trainers in the world just learn to live with the fact that a horse pulls back and work around it… in my opinion, with some horses it can be an impossible or near-impossible thing to fix, because it can be so unpredictable, and it creates such a blind panic in the horse that it isn’t easy to make it a trainable moment. It is much easier, on the other hand, to teach a horse to stand without being tied at all.
I have read the petition that was filed. The background facts clearly say that the owner of the horse told both the owner of the stable and the trainer that the horse would not tie and they were not to tie him at all. He was gentle and easily handled without tying. Granger was to train him under saddle and was NOT asked to teach him to tie.
Interesting other facts are that Granger and barn owner at first tried to lie to owner and tell her the horse had died of a heart attack and offered to bury it on the property for her. In the meantime an eyewitness to the incident phoned the owner and told her what happened. So, Owner had the body taken to A&M University for necropsy with the results that the horse died of severe and massive head trauma.
Then owner apparently tried to lie about where the incident happened. Eyewitness told owner that “they” were trying to clean up the blood, etc, and told her how to find the tree to which he had been tied. So she sent a friend out with videorecorder. Barn owner told friend it happened just in front to the barn, but friend knew better and went around back and found the tree and filmed it.
You guys should read the petition. If they’ve got a witness and the A&M necrospy and witnesses that they were told not to tie the horse, it’s gonna be pretty bad for them.
Hey, send me a PDF of the Complaint and I’ll be happy to post it. resqtb@yahoo.com
I don’t know how to look this up:
Update: The owner of the horse has fieled a lwsuit in Harris County, Texas. The Cause number is 980190 in County Court at Law #2 in Harris County, Texas. Style of the case is RoseAnn Carr vs. Alisija Zabavska Granger, Candace Granger, and Callegari Equine Technologies, LLC dba Callegari Equestrian Club and Callegari Arabians. Anyone interested can read the petition for background fact and causes of action
I miswrote. It was the barn owner that tried to lie about where the incident happened.
@1The_One1 We’re still waiting…
My understanding is that the “cowboy way” of teaching a horse to tie, is to tie it to a soild object like a huge post or tree, with a very sturdy halter and a big rope, and let it fight itself to exhaustion. Thus the horse supposedly learns that fighting against being tied accomplished nothing and the horse learns to stand tied.
I guess the problem with this is that horses can’t reason like (most) people can. They can’t generalize. If you do tie them to a stationary object and they don’t injure or kill themselves, they still haven’t learned to tie. Move them somewhere else and the struggle begins again.
I have a horse who wasn’t too good with tying when I got him (as an unbroke 4yo). Especially in a confined area like the cross ties or his stall. Anything that made him nervous, he’d freak out and pull back or bolt forward. His problem was an easy one to solve, though- instead of tying him, I used 1 long lead rope on each side, clipped to his halter. I threaded the loose end through the eyebolt on each side of the crosstie station, and then wrapped the tail of the rope around the rope a few times, so that a gentle tug wouldn’t pull it loose but a sure enough hard pull would make it slide loose. Once he figured out that if he pulled in panic, the ropes would let go and he could get away, he stopped trying so hard to escape and was more willing to face whatever was scaring him and cope.
Granted he’s a good horse with a sensible mind. And no past abuse issues either. A few weeks of using this method and I had cured him of pulling back probably 98%. When we tie in a strange place, I still use this method, just in case. At least using this method, there are no panic snaps to have to open, the horse gets immediate relief of pressure when he pulls (but enough resistance that it’s not really easy to do) and if he does get all the way loose, he’s trailing a long rope or two to make catching him easier if he runs off. The more times you wrap the tail of the rope around the rope, the harder you have to pull to get loose- so at first I only wrapped it 2 or 3 times (and used slick nylon ropes). As he learned better I wrapped it more times so he didn’t start getting ideas about how he could easily get loose!
I can believe that a horse who has severe tying issues, tied to a tree, could beat itself to death on the tree unassisted, especially if the horse circled the tree and his head was snubbed up really close to the tree. I don’t think it would take a person with a whip to make it happen, although that would definitnely make it worse. Regardless of the truth of the matter, the facts that have not been disputed is that A) the horse was tied to the tree and B) the horse died as a result.
No real, good horse trainer who does not abuse their horses, would ever tie a known puller to a tree and allow it to kill itself. Period. So even if what’s-her-name did not beat the horse, she was still negligent at best in tying it inappropriately given the horse’s known issues. Not to mention that it’s just a basic safety thing not to tie a horse like that unless you *know* the horse will stand quietly. At best she’s an idiot, at worst a horse-murdering animal abuser. Either way she has no business “training” horses.
Bottom line here is that an innocent, restrained horse was beaten to death for God’s sake! Every blow, one after another, was by the hand of a human being. Sociopathic behavior pure and simple. It is a sociological fact that those who abuse animals will abuse humans, especially children or those perceieved weaker than the abuser. It WILL happen.
OK assume for a moment that the horse was not beaten.
A horse you had been told NOT to tie (Really saying you had only been told not to tie it in cross ties is splitting hairs) has been tied to a tree.
It panics.
So, NO-ONE watching has a knife????
Sorry, this smells really bad.
I hope they drag her through the court, but I think they will settle out of court, the BO will sweep it under the carpet, and she will keep her job.
How many privately brought cases like this have you seen succeed?
I know, it sounds like it was a fairly public area. SOMEONE had a knife. What makes SENSE is that they were afraid to intervene because of Alisija’s temper.
The common sense answer is usually the answer.
“The lady doth protest too much, methinks”. -Shakespeare
Ok, her husband then. One suggestion for you, sleep with one eye open.
Another question…if you have a horse whom you *know* doesn’t tie well (and a horse who doesn’t cross tie isn’t usually reliable straight tied either), why would you tie them up anyway to bath them instead of having somebody hold them (or holding them yourself) in the wash rack. I don’t have cross ties in my barn wash area, so we ALWAYS hold whatever horse we’re washing.
Why would you tie a horse to a tree with no easy release option?
And none of this explains the blood on the tree.
You know. I have a place we’re fixing up and for a long time I had only one good place to tie a horse– and a couple of trees. The horses were significantly more upset with the tree than with a tying post. Why in the world would you tie a horse to a Tree who had trouble with being tied at all? One of my oldies (who never had pulled back before) panicked and flipped — breaking the lead clip, thank goodness. That was the last time I tied to a tree. I was right there. He was tied with a horseman’s knot (release with one pull). If he had lost his mind and charged the tree (WFT?) I could have gotten him lose before he bashed his brains in.
I’ve heard of accidents where a horse rears up and breaks its neck. (Not mine, I too am a member of the never killed a horse while training/handling/riding it). I’ve never before heard of a horse who panicked and RAN INTO THE FREAKING TREE!!! it was tied too.
When you have to do your training or –ahem Give them a Bath ahem– somewhere no one else can see, that is the first clue to YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG!!
I have seen horses that panic when tied lunge forward… sometimes they back to the end of the lead rope, then freak out even more and leap forward to try to escape… I’ve seen some of them go over the top of tie rails before. I could totally see a horse running head-first into a tree it was tied to if it was panicking. But I also find it hard to believe that there was a person standing right there who a) allowed it to happen or b) caused it to happen and that it was still an “accident.” I’d be interested to see the vet’s report… one would think if she was actively beating the horse, then there’d be evidence of same. And even if she wasn’t, allowing the horse to die like that is still deeply irresponsible behavior.
Sigh. I do know the difference between “too” and “to”. I guess I shouldn’t post when angry, hmm?
Ummmmm okay. So this fancy barn with lots of fancy pants horses and miss fancy pants WEG bathes a horse tied to a tree where the hose will turn everything under him into MUD that will then cover his legs?
I don’t know about the rest of y’all, but I’ve shown some fancy horses (not as many as I’d like, and not in the WEG, of course) and the trainers I was working under all would have beat MY ass up and down the barn aisle had I “bathed” a training horse and brought him back with mud boots and the inevitable muddy flecks on his belly from fidgeting while standing in mud.
You don’t bathe horses standing around on dirt… unless he was tied there for a “bath” because the trainer snuck off with him to wash off the blood after beating the snot out of him earlier…
The other day my mom and I went to go check out a nice AQH mare that was being offered for free…I know.
Anyway, the man who currently owns her (by the way, she is at a gorgeous facility and is fat and sassy) was telling my mom and I about the mare’s training. In order to train her to tie, the trainer she was at tied her to one of those giant brown dumpsters. I guess the theory being that when the horse panics (not if), they will drag the dumpster which offers some give and will not break their necks or what have you. I wonder how a gigantic metal dumpster scraping around a panicking horse doesn’t exacerbate the situation at all?!? I wasn’t sure why he was bragging about that tie method, but then again, I know little about tying as I don’t tie my Morgan….it’s all crosstying for him.
Regardless, I wonder sometimes where people come up with their training methods.
Jeeeesus…not to mention there are sharp edges on a dumpster. Holy CRAP what a crazy idea.
W. T. F. I am speechless. Seriously.
Wow.
Huh … so extreme Darwinism and natural selection for horses??! Like, if this horse survived a trainer this bad, it’s more likely to survive whatever you throw at it, plus will be able to save itself during a fire/flood/ attack of the possessed garbage dumpsters? See how awesome this horse is?
I’m just trying to think of a good reason to brag about the garbage dumpster training technique. What you’re not buying this? (feel sarcasm)
Poor animal. My son’s pony has a tieing issue. After a long time training she is pretty darn good now, but I won’t let anyone tie her but me unless we are 100% clear they know what to do. She’s one of those Jekyll&Hyde types- one minute completely serene and sensible- next second a freakout from no apparent provocation.
It takes patience, proper and safe training techniques, time, and more patience. Actually I find that tieing and trailer loading/unloading to be the toughest things for horse people to train and maintain proper training in. Why? Because people LOVE to short cut- and short cuts never pan out for any good in the end.
I am the attorney who has been retained on behalf of the owner of the horse in question. As noted, a lawsuit has been filed and is public record. Anyone may obtain a copy and read it for more background facts.
I will say only that the trainer and barn owher were BOTH told repeatedly not to tie the horse at all. And yes, there is an eyewitness to the incident who says the horse was tied to the tree and was beating struck repeatedly with something in the trainer’s hand. She believes it was a whip, but is not certain. I have spoken to this witness directly.
I am here for one reason – to ask anyone with firsthand knowledge of Alisija Granger losing her temper with a horse and striking it to please contact me, as I’d like to be able to establish a pattern to her actions. You may contact me at rpennington@equinelawyer.net
While I may check back here to read comments, I will not be posting here again.
Thanks for posting!
You might look this one up: 280th District Court, Harris County, Texas Trial Court Cause No. 83-06385
Defendant beat a filly (client’s filly) to death.
Case was I believe appealed on the issue of calculating the dollar value of the filly, an Arabian called Gayla Silva Robin.
Memories last a long time. Even pre-internet memories! Occasionally something about trainer Sky Gray of Act III Arabians surfaces in a breed forum.
The killer was not suspended by the breed association (lotta tolerance for evil trainers there) or what in those days was AHSA (it took the murder of jumpers in the 90′s for insurance money to get AHSA to take much significant action), though Gray slunk into obscurity for about a decade. Way I hear it now, though, he’s baaaaaaaaack…..stables in Katy, Tx, attendance at auctions, etc.
Soooooo — just WHAT IS IT about Texas, anyway – something in the water? Or are the animal abuse laws there so lax that Texas just attracts the truly vicious?
Serendipity: Never heard of Blocker TIes before, now here’s a pair on sale in NoVA C/L. Anyone not done Xmas shopping yet?
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/grd/2123653336.html
Or should we take up a collection for Ms. Crazee above?
Assorted comments: first, the below quoted post just showed up in the Chronicle Forums, “Sonesta” appears to be counsel for the dead horse’s owners, looking for add’l witnesses, the web info for the Chron forum address is below; second, just the name of that boarding barn/farm puts me strongly in mind of the most famous horror film of all time, that would be the Cabinet of Dr. Caligari (Callegari, doncha know). Finally from another paralegal of some four decades, this lawyer most likely should not be discussing the case in a public form but at least she seems to be keeping the comments to what’s already public record. Still…..
And Fugly most likely won’t like the lawyer because the lawyer breeds Knabstruppers, the original fugliest of fugly Appies, Euro Style.
#25
Dec. 21, 2010, 02:09 PM
Sonesta
Old Grey Mare
Premium Member Join Date: Feb. 23, 1999
Location: Cypress, near Houston, Texas
Posts: 6,054
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I will make only one more post to this thread to clarify two things and to ask for a bit of help:
First, the trainer and barn owner were told repeatedly not to tie the horse at all. They agreed they would not.
Second, there IS an eyewitness to the incident. I have spoken with that witness to confirm what she saw.
Now for the help: If you have witnessed Alisija Granger lose her temper and strike a horse, I would like to hear from you, as I would like to establish that she has a history of such behavior. Several people have already come forward, but the more that can testify the stronger the case.
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Sonesta Farms – breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses. Also breeding Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=281554&page=2
Actually, I like Knabstruppers and don’t think they’re fugly at all. Not that I may not have commented on one that IS…
Second, our law firm has posted on blogs, etc. before seeking information. It’s not an uncommon practice these days. Why NOT use the Internet? It’s no different than the classified ads of the olden days asking for witnesses to an accident.
Sonesta Farms is nothing to write home about either, although they do seem to have a nice facility. I’ve personally seen several of their students (adults and children) fall off at Sonesta’s own schooling show in an intro level class. Some of them fell off more than once during the same test. A couple of their horses left the ring entirely and the rider was pretty helpless to stop it. Doesn’t speak too highly of their instructors IMO.
You are either very confused or you are someone trying to cause trouble. First, we do not have children as students. Second, I have had a student fall off a horse exactly one time – it was at a recognized show at GSWEC during July when she had a heat stroke and passed out. We have had only two schooling shows at Sonesta Farms. AT the first one, there was indeed a trainer who had several students fall off their horses, but it was an outside trainer and not any of our students.
Okay, husband says it was actually the SECOND show where there was trainer whose students kept hitting the dirt. But it sure wasn’t any students of ours!
I agree that Sonesta Farms is nothing fancy…
And EquineLawyer is also the owner of Sonesta Farms… and it appears to be a theatre major according to facebook (criminal justice and law is listed also, but it seems like she dabbles in a lot of stuff)…
It seems interesting that when I looked stuff up on her, there is not a whole heck of lot as far as her law stuff is concerned….
You can go to law school with literally ANY minor…theatre is hardly one of the most unusual I’ve seen, and actually I can see it being helpful. The best litigators are not only smart and quick-thinking, but excellent performers who can tell a story in a way that holds a jury or judge’s attention.
Maybe you didn’t find as much on my law career because I practiced for many years as Rebecca Matthews before I was remarried. And why do you care that I graduated cum laude from law school and was listed in Who’s Who of Amiercan Law? Or that I was managing partner for the litigation firm, Gammon & Matthews? Or that I was the director of the Trial Advocacy Institute at the University of Houston Law Center for four years? Or that a few of my cases in the Texas Appellate system have made law in this state?? No, I’m not much at all.
Stop confusing the trolls with the facts!
I can see it would be not a testament to your ability for an instructor to go to a horse show and have many of her students fall off. On the other hand, ah… speaking as a novice rider, I have… fallen off. And it’s not because my instructors sucked. Nor was I overmounted.
Falls happen. It depends on why they happen. Everyone knows I have strict beliefs about how you MUST be able to w-t-c without irons before you jump so much as an X, so if you fall off ’cause you lost a stirrup, yeah, I might not think much of your instructor. If you got bucked off, hell, that can happen to anyone!
Obviously You are pretty clueless when it comes to horse breeds, seeing as the Knabstrupper is way older than the appy. I have no idea what makes You describe them as the “the original fugliest of fugly Appies, Euro Style.”, but looking at pictures of actual horses of this breed really highlights Your ignorance, and not to advantage:
from http://vadalein.deviantart.com/art/Knabstrupper-quot-Picasso-quot-183981053?q=boost%3Apopular+knabstrupper&qo=0
from http://vadalein.deviantart.com/art/Picasso-179128345?q=boost%3Apopular+knabstrupper&qo=3
from http://vadalein.deviantart.com/art/Soholmsgaard-Kentucky-179375679?q=boost%3Apopular+knabstrupper&qo=5
etc etc
You obviously don’t know Your ass from Your elbow, as this breed totally whoops the arse off any old school Appys the USA has to show for themselves when it comes to looks……… Have You ever even seen an old school Appy? My Gosh…..
I don’t think either the US appy or the knabs are fugly, I think they are both stunning. I grew up with warmbloods that only came in black, bay, sorrel or gray, that was it. I am so happy now to be able to have a “horse of color” (Thank you Art Deco) No need to insult either, both are amazingly beautiful animals.
Well I do know my elbow from…and if you were here I’d throw one at you for getting your knickers in such a knot. I am well aware of the Knabstrupper heritage and have a Knab cross of my own from circus days. And FYI from a history standpoint, the American App actually has a dna history as far back as the dynasties in China well before “Ming.” Those who opine that horses left the North American continent in early BCE only to reappear concurrently with before the Spanish arrival have largely been proven wrong. They all go back thousands of years.
And unlike Fugly I tend to treasure every single equine pretty or not. She has her beliefs, and I mine. Not that anyone (or very many anyones) are inclined to respect same.
I don’t think ANY horse, pretty or not, should be mistreated or neglected in any way, including slaughter.
I merely think that unattractive horses or conformationally defective (as it relates to riding) horses should not be bred since there’s less of a market for them and therefore they’re more likely to wind up in a bad situation…and also because some confo flaws increase the odds of early lameness, which also increases the odds they wind up in trouble.
One of the most brilliant criminal lawyers I know (he was head of his state bar for awhile) majored in Chemistry as an undergrad. (He was quite good in that as well.)
Yeah, I never got that Fugs hates horses that are “of color” or not “perfect”. She just says stop breeding them while there are hundreds of thousands each year going to slaughter and the price is at the bottom of the barrel. Breed for conformation and skills, train and show, then sell. You’ll get a hellofalot more for them then, and they’re less likely to end up at the slaughter house.
Cite, please? What is the evidence horses were still in North America prior to the Conquistadors?
Looked over the cavalier portion of the website. Looks like a respectable and reputable breeder. The dogs have show careers and and have had health testing. I did not see any mention of mri’s or results for the hip xrays and I know many breeders don’t x-ray cavaliers but I’m usually looking for that since my own cavalier has severe issues. Thank god cavaliers are not a horse breed, that would be the most disease ridden, but sweetest horse you could find. Once you have a website where people from all over the world discuss the horrible health problems they have encoutered with their cavies, you know you have a problem. Love the breed, but I will probably never own another (too heartbreaking to watch them deteriorate with those huge brown eyes) nor would I ever breed them myself.
I checked the dogs out too. They may not screen for hips, but they are on spot with the cardiac which is super critical for the breed.
I board at a stable in Texas that has wash stalls. I use them in the winter (hot water) and when we’ve had rain.
However, in the summer when it’s hot and we haven’t had rain in weeks, I will rinse my horse off in the shady grassy common area behind the stables.
I hold the lead in one hand while I have the hose/sprayer in the other. I believe it’s more responsible to the environment to use the water for two purposes (i.e. rinse the horse, water the grass).
Any skilled, safety conscious horseperson does not hose or spray a tied horse, thats just basic horsemanship 101. Ms Granger failed this safety test even before she beat the animal. What a dolt
Would love to hear examples of her prervious hissy fits, someone out there do tell.
Wow, watching this unfold was better drama than Hollywood. What country is that evil, horse-killing trainer from? Did she come here legally? Did she leave her home country because of a poor reputation there? So glad owners are pursuing civil action.
Shit, meet fan.
She is from Lithuania, and she appears to have married an American so I suppose that is how she is here.
Isn’t that american’s name the same as the owners of the farm? Curiouser and curiouser . . .
Oh boy… I am new here and I hate for this to be my first post, but I really have to speak up on this because not only have I been to this facility. I actually used to board there, I also know Alisija.
Now first I will address the facility. They have had their share of problems and most is due to lack of management. There have been serious riding accidents such as a time when Alisija encouraged three girls’ ages ranging from 12-16 to get on one horse (triple) mind you, and canter around in a round pen. Think that’s bad? How about later that day when she encouraged those same three girls to get that horse back out later that evening when the main arena already had 1 lesson going on, and two other riders. The Covered arena is about 100×200 roughly so 4 horses is quite a lot. Those three girls on that one horse came galloping into the arena opposite of the rest of the traffic and almost immediately ran into the young lady having a lesson. THAT’S RIGHT NEAR HEAD ON COLLISION WITH TWO HORSES AND LET’S COUNTS THEM… 4 RIDERS TOTAL! Now there was an outcry by several boarders and one of their trainers demanding the enforcement of safety rules basic safety. Management looked the other way and told the boarders who were concerned about safety and the one responsible trainer they had at the time “We are a fun barn; we want everyone to enjoy their horsesâ€. Let me tell you, I did not find it fun to witness that little event…
Another little tidbit every single horse Alisija rides is ridden with spurs, dressage whip and cranked down in one of those funky Arabian Martingales. It’s like a running martingale only the rings are on the horse shoulders? If they aren’t in a martingale, they are in draw reins. Its not rolkur but they are behind the bit and over flexed for sure. I might also add that every single horse she rides goes in a single twisted wire.
Humm let me see, there was the time that Alisija was going to take one of her client out on trail with her. The client was on her very young slightly spooky gelding. Not taught how to ride in draw reins but the horse was bitted up with old leather draw reins. The horse spooked and the horse and rider flipped over crashing into the wall of a round pen. The poor rider hit her head so hard, she had obviously had sustained a substantial head injury. I was out to ride my horse and came over to see what the ruckus was. I was told by another boarder that Alisija was whimpering in the dirt while her confused client was injured and distressed. Was she crying because she was worried for he client? NO… She was crying “Why has this happened to me???†Are you confused?? It wasn’t Alisija that fell to the ground and was injured. It was her client.
Another time Alisija had gone to a show. It was a fairly hot time of year and yet she took a young horse she was training out to lunge him before she rode him. She lunged the horse for 2 hours before getting on. The horse was ready to collapse by the time she got on him. That’s not even the best part of that day. She brought a very cute little girl to ride in the show. She put the girl on a 20+ year old Arab gelding that had been retired from showing in the Arab circuit because he had had enough of the shows and would flip out at them. Rearing, bucking just totally melting down. I don’t know how young the girl was but she appeared to be under 10. At this show grounds there is no enclosed warm-up area, because it has two rings and both are used for the shows so the warm-up areas are open. Now this child was small and no way could she control this horse. Common sense would be to put this horse on a lunge line if you are stupid enough to put a small child on a horse that adults couldn’t control at shows anymore thus forcing his show retirement. Was she put on a lunge line? NOPE! Instead she was turned lose into and 300 acre open facility where the horse promptly ran off bucking with this small child sending her flying off on hard ground. Amazingly the kid got back on and went into the show ring after being checked out by the paramedic.
The pictures you saw of her jumping that was laughable… That was a quarter horses gelding not trained to jump, but she was trying to sell him as a jumper. The horse had no idea how to jump, so she just set up these 3ft + jumps and beat the $hit out of him until he leaped for his life over the jumps like a bunny rabbit. She was also doing it initially in a dressage saddle… That must be her idea of Classical Dressage… *rolls eyes*
A few more recent events she purchased from a friend a young spooky gelding and started “training him†the poor horse had whip marks on his sides all the time. Did I mention she bought the horse after she screwed over some other woman and never repaid her for a loan of several thousand dollars, so the woman stole Alisijas prize endurance horse to get her money back. Talk about Karma. Anyhow she decided to go out on trail with clients and her horse slipped in the creek behind the barn and fell. When he did she was dunked (sadly not nearly long enough to be effective) but she did gash her forehead. The horse ran back to the barn and she came back after him. I think everyone at the facility secretly cheered at the first sight of her own blood rather than a horse. Many of the boarders at that facility are good people, who love and care for their horses. I might add. In any case, I’m sure you are wondering what her “training†method was to teach her horse not to slip and fall in a creek. She took that poor horse into a round pen, tied his head to his tail so tight he couldn’t hardly breathe, grabbed a lung whip and with a full arm swing proceeded to whip the ever loving crap out of that horse. Both their blood was flowing then. Someone had to go into the round pen, physically drag her @$$ out of there and take the horse while several other people sat her down to calm her down. She kept saying “I’ll kill that bastard!!!†That poor horse had to be hand walked for over two hours to cool him down enough to be hosed off and put away. When he was hosed the water on his wounds was so painful he nearly collapsed.
More recently, I had a friend who shows avidly in AHA and was witness to yet another one of her indescresions. She was riding that same lovely grey gelding her client fell of a year before, in the warm up ring for more than two hours against traffic and running into other horses. People were ready to kill her, as she screamed and yelled profanities to god and everyone. As she finally entered the show ring nearly two hours later the poor horse had just reached his limit (who could blame him?) As they entered the ring, he was spooking, rearing and just mentally completely shut down. As the horse freaked out in the ring, the audience actually cheered in hopes that she would fall off or be asked to leave the ring. She was so furious at the horse, that after she left the show ring in over 100 degree heat she took the poor horse back into the warm-up ring where she whipped, spurred, and rode the ever loving crap out of the horse (that’s after she nearly ran a child down getting to the show ring). The owner of the horse finally reached her limit and demanded she get off the horse and never touches him again. People cheered about that as well. That horse had to also be walked for over two hours to be cooled down.
Now most recently rumors are swirling about this horse and its tragic end. Here are the facts.
1. the horse was a 10 year old tb gelding who didn’t tie
2. the horse belonged to a personal friend of the owners of the barn
3. the trainer was specifically told to tie the horse
4. the horse was a problem horse or he wouldn’t have been sent to her in the first place
5. Sadly 5 no on will come forward so far as witness to what really happened, but I don’t doubt that Alisija was fully responsible. She has whipped and beat every single horse I’ve ever seen her handle. So was she somehow responsible for this horse’s untimely death? I don’t doubt that for one single second. How exactly it happened, Alisija may be the only one to ever know the exact details. But if people don’t run this woman out on a pole, more will die. More will suffer, and god forbid some naive person will be taught he ways and believe that her “methods†are valid training techniques and this cycle will continue…
I couldn’t stomach, her and took my horses from the facility, for one simple reason. That woman will someday be responsible for not only more horses lives lost but people. She is equally abusive to people yelling, screaming, cussing, threatening. She screams like a banshee and MUST be stopped!
I sincerely hope that someone comes forward to serve as witness to what really happened to this horse. Even if he was a problem horse, no horse deserves be treated or to lose its life this way…
correction on #3 the owner iof the facility and the “trainer” were told specifically NOT to tie the horse
I hope you will contact the owner’s lawyer and give a deposition regarding what you’ve written above.
Sadly I am not shocked by what you’ve written…because I’ve heard of her doing similar things here in the UAE in the past, and witnessed some as well.
cieramina: Don’t let her get away with anymore crimes, PLEASE contact the owners attorney and the sheriff’s department. YOU can save a life by putting her behind bars so she doesn’t just move to another state to continue her serial abuse.
Sounds like you need to get in contact with the laywer! That sure seems like a “pattern of behaviour” to me! The email posted for the laywer in a comment above was rpennington@equinelawyer.net, in case you don’t feel like looking for it.
I certainly hope you contact the attorney who posted above with this information.
Ok, I have a question about all this, if this person was as good of a trainer as claimed on the website, and knows horses so well, when tying this horse to a tree who has a history of panicking and pulling back, why did she not use a quick release? Is that not common sense? When tying a horse to something as unrelenting as a tree? Did she just stand there and watch this horse freak? Wouldn’t she do something when the horse started to panic? This seems like she really doesn’t know what to do in an emergency.
Oh, she did something all right!
Sounds like she lost her temper and whipped the horse. I’m not saying that’s fact because I wasn’t there, but there are a lot of people saying she was beating that horse.
I am so so so so so thankful to God that I did NOT breed my mare to these people’s stallion. I wanted to choose an SE stallion with a good show record and nearly did-until when researching the farm online I found where someone posted about their run in with the farm’s ill-tempered trainer (the subject of your post today).
I decided to leave the mare open for the year and am very thankful I did.
Alisja is one of many trainers who work at Callegari. I’ve done training there, as well. (Nothing but my own horse at the moment, not enough time!) If you are looking for solid breeding stallions, Aten is my pick of the Callegari crop. But Martha and Jean White have some GORGEOUS athletic SE stallions as well. Classic Bloodstock in Hempstead, TX. BUT remember the economy is sending plenty of SE’s to slaughter.
And just one more thing. Whenever I have a patient in the clinic that for whatever reason I am treating without the owner present and the owner tells me “Fluffy doesn’t cross tie” I always clarify “Does Fluffy straight tie?” and vice-versa. And if for some reason I don’t get clarification, I assume Fl.uffy does not tie at all
The barn owners have posted a Public Notice about the incident:
http://www.callegarihorses.com/public_notice.html
“Callegari Equestrian Club
DATE: December 17, 2010
FROM: Candace and Eduardo Callegari
SUBJECT: Tragic Accident of November19th
PUBLIC NOTICE
As owners of this Equestrian facility, we, Eduardo and Candace, want to let you know about the
proper procedures that we have taken to investigate this incident. We also need to address an issue
with you. We keep reading about rumors of misconduct concerning the tragic accident on
November 19th which resulted in the death of a horse and we have been investigating these rumors.
But we want to assure you that everything we do is based upon fact and not rumor.
We also want to assure you, that we take action for misconduct, as we have done in the past. Some
of you may remember that in 2009 Callegari had to ask a trainer to leave the facility, even though we
knew it would hurt our business. We knew boarders would be upset, blame us, and speak badly of
us, for something that was not even our issue. However, we did what was right for our business and
for your Club.
As professional business owners we’re doing our due diligence covering this incident. We at
Callegari Equestrian prefer to work off of fact and not hearsay. For example, we have identified every
vehicle, person, worker, and visitor who was at the Club on the morning of the accident on
November 19th. We have called and talked directly with each of the persons who were on sight that
day. However, we found out there were no witnesses to the accident. In addition, no one ran to, or
for, help and I’m sure any witnesses would have tried to assist in any manner. If any person has
information please come forward as it is illegal for any person here to withhold information which
would hinder proper procedure and legal proceedings at this facility.
Callegari Equestrian has the right to take legal action against any witness who withholds information
from us. Anyone withholding information will be libel, in addition to, Business Disparagement as they
knowingly let rumors and ill will spread. Therefore, you are given Public Notice that anyone
withholding any information concerning the events of November 19th has the responsibility of
notifying us immediately. Callegari will take a series of measures to validate the credibility of any
witness account(s) to this event.
So please let us know if you have any additional information about this incident.
We appreciate your support and value your feedback. Please contact us with any questions or
comments at candace@callegarihorses.com
Your friends,
Eduardo and Candace Callegari “
Wow!! Considering they are still “investigating”, they call it an “accident” no less than FOUR times, and an “incident” once.
I call bullshit.
Also, I highly fucking doubt they have any legal recourse if a “witness” doesn’t tell the BO what happened. Yes, there are legal ramifications if you don’t talk to maybe the police or whatever… but get the hell off your high horse!
If I boarded there, and didn’t leave over the “incident” (which I probably would have), I’d DEFINITELY be leaving over that snotty “notice”.
Sorry, that’s FOUR “accident”, THREE “incident” and TWO “event”.
Either way, that’s pretty smarmy talking there. And “accident” seems to be “winning” in their minds.
What a tough ‘voice’!!! I’d be afraid to speak up to them! Kinda like Mugzy the Thug!!! And why wait 30 days till they ask for witnesses???
@ FHotD you should hook up all the folks that mentioned knowing first hand incidents. I read all the posts there are a few. With the horse owners lawyer that just showed up. In case they miss his post ! (~:
Pretty sure the attorney posting here has done just that
Here is a letter that went out to all of the boarders, trainers, and affiliates at Callegari. It was hung on the bulletin boards all around the property, as well…
[quote]
Callegari Equestrian Club
DATE: December 17, 2010
FROM: Candace and Eduardo Callegari
SUBJECT: Tragic Accident of November19th
PUBLIC NOTICE
As owners of this Equestrian facility, we, Eduardo and Candace, want to let you know about the
proper procedures that we have taken to investigate this incident. We also need to address an issue
with you. We keep reading about rumors of misconduct concerning the tragic accident on
November 19th which resulted in the death of a horse and we have been investigating these rumors.
But we want to assure you that everything we do is based upon fact and not rumor.
We also want to assure you, that we take action for misconduct, as we have done in the past. Some
of you may remember that in 2009 Callegari had to ask a trainer to leave the facility, even though we
knew it would hurt our business. We knew boarders would be upset, blame us, and speak badly of
us, for something that was not even our issue. However, we did what was right for our business and
for your Club.
As professional business owners we’re doing our due diligence covering this incident. We at
Callegari Equestrian prefer to work off of fact and not hearsay. For example, we have identified every
vehicle, person, worker, and visitor who was at the Club on the morning of the accident on
November 19th. We have called and talked directly with each of the persons who were on sight that
day. However, we found out there were no witnesses to the accident. In addition, no one ran to, or
for, help and I’m sure any witnesses would have tried to assist in any manner. If any person has
information please come forward as it is illegal for any person here to withhold information which
would hinder proper procedure and legal proceedings at this facility.
Callegari Equestrian has the right to take legal action against any witness who withholds information
from us. Anyone withholding information will be libel, in addition to, Business Disparagement as they
knowingly let rumors and ill will spread. Therefore, you are given Public Notice that anyone
withholding any information concerning the events of November 19th has the responsibility of
notifying us immediately. Callegari will take a series of measures to validate the credibility of any
witness account(s) to this event.
So please let us know if you have any additional information about this incident.
We appreciate your support and value your feedback. Please contact us with any questions or
comments at candace@callegarihorses.com
Your friends,
Eduardo and Candace Callegari [/quote]
I’m glad they’re addressing it but their legal reasoning is seriously effed up.
“Anyone withholding information will be libel, in addition to, Business Disparagement as they
knowingly let rumors and ill will spread.”
That is the sort of thing that, if I got it in a letter, I’d pass it around the office and we’d giggle.
Reading the posted letter, occurs to me this is what my boss attorney and likely most litigation attorneys would consider “intimidation of witnesses” and I would sure hope that such tactics would result in Callegari losing all of their boarders. Pronto.
This is an excellent point, also. I think it’s poorly written and factually questionable.
Their entire website is an English-language travesty. Why would this be any different?
New post on the Callegari website, they have a new tab under the “PUBLIC NOTICE” tab, called “Why Issue NOTICE?” (there is also a “What are the facts” tab, but it is under construction).
It seems like they lost their sense of professionalism, and even took some digs at the woman whose horse was killed. Real nice. (And why is she talking about her brother’s ex girlfriend?)
http://www.callegarihorses.com/public_notice_why.html
“Callegari Equestrian Club
DATE: December 22nd 2010
REGARDING: Tragic accident involving death of a horse named Seattle on November 19th 2010
Why did we post PUBLIC NOTICE at the Equestrian Club and to the Clients?
…We at Callegari are very open, and if you know us, you know we are all about facts. In this matter,
we HAVE to be extremely factual. We are going on the record with our name. So lets go….
There is a lot of talk, or write, that there is a witness to the tragic accident, involving the death of a
horse, that took place on November 19th 2010. And we are receiving numerous emails making
malicious threats, all based upon a premise of what they are reading – that the horse “was beaten to
death”. If it were to be true, most heinous indeed.
Callegari does what is right and in the best interest of our Stable. We have no reason not too. If there
is misconduct than action will be taken. We need “to be able to” take action if it is warranted. But
currently our investigation shows that there were no witnesses to this incident. And if there are no
witnesses then you can only address the facts at hand.
We have taken action in the past against a trainer for misconduct. And the owner of the horse in
question knows about it. There is no reason for her to think we would not do so again. This trainer
was asked not to come to the barn even though we knew we would be the ones to take the loss. And
we did. We lost business. And in the minds of the people who went with this trainer we were
considered the bad ones! And prior to that trainer, we have also asked other trainers to leave the
barn, but solely due to non-payment. Of course, their clients went with them. And, of course, they
blamed it all on us for various reasons. And we got the bad rap. When all we wanted was simple
payment. We are trying to run a business you know! Years later some of those clients who left, have
apologized, and said they figured it all out!! But probably in the minds of many, especially the kids,
we are still the evil ones. Because kids only hear one side of an issue.
In this case, the owner paid this trainer directly for her services and we were paid for the boarding
services. She was happy with our boarding services, and acknowledged in writing, that her horse
was looking good and had gained weight while being with us. Take note, the owner, owns her own
Boarding, Training, and Lesson facility.
Let me explain to you how Callegari works. We provide an excellent facility based on choices.
Because we have realized that “horse people” all have various preferences. So we offer 9 different
types of wash racks, 6 different types of grooming stalls, and 8 different types of stalls and multiple
choices of feed. We use only Barn Master top of the line products for their quality and safety
purposes. We let the client choose whatever Vet or farrier they want.
At any given time there are 5-10 different independent and part time trainers, of varied disciplines,
that come to the facility to assist 90 boarders, with training their horses or to give lessons. We try to
keep a varied skillset so as to appeal to all our different types of boarders. We have always been a
“boarders’ barn”, and so our program focuses on keeping our diverse set of boarders happy! We
have never been a training barn, Callegari is not owned by trainers, and we don’t pretend to try and
tell a trainer how to do their job, or which trainer a client should use. Its their choice.
We are a great big family oriented fun facility – with lots of eyes. We receive a lot of repeat business
which attests to what a great facility we are to board your horse at. Boarders who build farms, come
back many years later, as well as people who have boarded at other barns. We are proud of this fact.
The nasty things that have been said are unwarranted and damaging to a wonderful facility, and the
many great families who board here, as well as the various trainers, who come to Callegari. They
don’t deserve it!
It makes us sad that people will believe anything they read. But Callegari is not a lynch mob. We need
some facts. Not hear say. I personally asked the owner of the horse, in writing, “who is the eye
witness who contacted you? In order to get to the bottom of this we need to know.†To date no one
has provided us with this information. In Court it would be made known anyway. We at Callegari are
trying to be proactive in resolving this matter.
It is very disconcerting. Because we can not find a witness. In addition, the very next day after the
accident, Channel 11 showed up at the barn. Surprise! We did not even know why they were there!!
They said that Roseann Byers had called them, because she had received an anonymous call that
her horse had been beaten to death. I explained that this incident was between the owner and her
trainer. And that if they did a story they would damage the boarders, the families, the kids, and the
other trainers, who had nothing to do with this at all! And that kids had already gotten involved on the
internet, and how malicious, from barn to barn, and trainer to trainer, that kids could be. They agreed
and they left.
Let me ask you a question, if you had gotten an anonymous phone call, saying that they saw your
horse beaten to death, what would you do? We got a surprise Media visit in order to even find out.
This from my brothers ex-girlfriend! Yes, they dated off and on for 2-3 years. It was a very turbulent
relationship, especially this last year, and it ended badly not too long ago.
Over the next days, the internet rant got even worse. But the strange thing was that there was a
bunch of “fishing” for eyewitnesses going on. I thought to myself, why all the fishing? If a case has
an eye witness it is in the bag. Just go to Court and be done with it.
People post lies on the internet with the sole intent to harm and do damage. I was recently emailed a
letter were someone said they would start a smear campaign unless the trainer was asked to resign.
Do you know what that is? What is smear? Lies. Hype. Hysteria. Its a lynch mob.
“I am writing to request the resignation of Alisija Granger after the death of a horse attempting to be
taught to ‘tie’. I do not know precisely what happened, ……If her resignation does not come, an
effective media attack upon Callegari will begin. Local newspapers, news stations, etc will be
contacted.”
And this is one that you can actually read without cringing from the swear words and insults.
Taught to tie ??? Thats a new one! What will they say next?
Oh my god. Can you believe the Citizenry here! And they admit they don’t know what happened! So
threaten Callegari instead. Listen people we are US Citizens. We follow the law. And don’t you realize
that by creating a smear campaign you tie a business’ hands.
Also, we have experienced arguments where we get 20 different sides of a story. Even eye witness
accounts get things wrong! Yes, they have incorrectly paired the wrong trainer with the wrong
students!! Or just because a trainer is in an arena, then the boarders who are riding must actually be
taking a lesson, and under the trainer’s care. Don’t ever ASSUME. So we are big at sorting out the
facts. And on the internet people say they are eyewitness but hide behind anonymity. So you can’t
even believe eyewitness accounts unless they come out and tell you to your face!!!
If there is some negligence, on the part of this trainer, then she will undoubtedly pay. Callegari strives
for the truth and resolution in this matter. Please check out the facts page if you want some of the
actual details of the case.
Sincerely,
Eduardo and Candace Callegari”
The Callegaris REALLY need to get counsel and allow ONLY THEIR COUNSEL to speak on this.
They really are not doing themselves, or their facility, any favors.
I’m so glad you posted this here, in its’ entirety… since now it’s gone.
Too bad so sad BO… it’s here for infamy.
Does this offend anyone else? http://www.callegarihorses.com/boarding_why_plusses.html
It’s supposedly “The Pros and Cons of Boarding over Backyarding” but it’s certainly not an unbiased account. Apparently, “If you are 40+ you may want to reconsider back-yarding unless you HIRE HELP!” So in ten years I’m suddenly going to become physically incompetent? Other gems:
“You will find that you do not have the time to ride because you are always working for your horse.
All of the jobs and responsibilities listed above suddenly become yours!
You HAVE TO make sure the horse is fed and taken care of – you cannot “put it off”.
The work load starts to take a huge amount of physical effort.”
“Do not think that your children are going to be the stable cleaners and grooms. Its a fallacy !
Your children will start to view that animal in the same manner as they do their dog – work and boring.
They will loose interest in the horse unless you schedule activities.
If you want them to continue training and learning you will either have to:
a. find a trainer who will come to your house
b. trailer out for lessons
If you plan on showing to any high level you most likely will be asked to board your horse at a training barn
anyway.”
All I have to say is…wow. Although on their lesson page they claim: “All lessons focus on total horsemanship and include instruction on proper grooming, tacking, and care for the horse, as well as time riding. At Callegari, we teach our students all the necessary fundamentals of horsemanship that in turn teaches respect, responsibility, and understanding of the horse,” that attitude is seriously undermined by the attitude towards hoses that is created in the “boarding versus backyard-ing” page.
Wow, in all my years of having horses (I was born into a horse family, at least us girls love the ‘hay burners’, lol) and they have never been boarded. And now that I just turned 40, I’m heartbroken that I no longer will enjoy all the work that goes along with this incredible privilege of owning, caring for and riding my horses! Do you sense my sarcasm?
THIS offended me!!! If you are 40+ you may want to reconsider back-yarding unless you HIRE HELP!
Fuck THAT. Man, if that chick was in front of me I think I’d smack her!!!
I am forty. I bet I could take her out.
And my husband is twenty years older than me! My husband actually does most of the heavy lifting, he builds fences, helps clean the paddock, feeds and waters…
Bitch.
I’m over 40 and I’m sure I could too! Not everybody is out of shape and falling apart.
I’m almost 48 and a prison guard> ‘Nuff said.
Actually, many of us “older” people welcome the amenities at Callegari. I do have one handicapped friend, who has 2 stalls there, that probably could not handle the day to day chores, but for many of us it’s simply a matter of not having the time. Most of us are professional people with busy careers, and between the time devoted to our jobs and commuting, simply are not “up” for the work involved in having our own barn. I myself only have about 2 hours daily during the week to spend with my horse and obviously prefer to spend those hours riding, grooming or grazing to mucking. etc. But you do as you prefer! Different strokes for different folks, so to speak.
Oh for Christs sake!
Everyone who has owned a horse and kept it on their own property for themselves knows the amount of work involved. We actually agree with most of the stuff (spending more time working for the horse than riding, etc.), but it was this line “If you are 40+ you may want to reconsider back-yarding unless you HIRE HELP!” that pissed us all off.
Of course there are time constraints regarding work, commute, etc. But COME ON, stop arguing EVERY SINGLE POINT. If you can’t see the issue with that line, then NO ONE can help you.
Oh you’re busy but you’re on here posting… A lot. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I also like how their “full board” includes ” feed, hay, water, turnout, blanketing, tack locker, running of your fan,” yet they charge and extra $30 a month to have a “Water Bucket hung in stall and maintained.” Do they just flood the stall if you don’t pay the extra $30?
They also have a “create a ‘custom’ foal program” (http://www.callegarihorses.com/create_foal2.html) where they offer “DESIGNER FOALS TO MEET YOUR NEEDS”
And I know Arabians are supposed to have dished faces, but I think this is just hideous.
A face only a mother could love!!!!! He’s cute!
He looks a bit scared…Like – can I come in now! This photographer scares me!!! Don’t they do nose jobs on horses nowadays?
Hello? All the stalls have automatic waterers, as stated on their website, and there’s no extra charge for those. Some horses don’t like them, and their owners sometimes choose the water bucket service. Because it takes the barn guys extra time to drain/clean/refill buckets, and those guys have to be paid, an extra dollar a day is charged. Simple common sense. Some owners choose to do it themselves, and that’s perfectly OK, too. You seem to be putting the entire operation under a microscope and looking hard for flaws. If you don’t want to board there, fine. Those of us who do board there love it, and we’re like a big family. Actually, with your negative attitude, I doubt you’d fit in anyway.
Well, from this letter it is obvious they are open minded and haven’t already concluded what they THINK happened (thick sarcasm). I mean, they keep referring to an “accident” and how they have already concluded there are no witnesses.
I sincerely hope that this pathetic attempt at witness intimidation does NOT work and anyone knowledgeable of the events that day does come forward — to the appropriate OFFICIALS and/or lawyers in the case, NOT to the owners of Callegari.
This line is completely ridiculous, “If any person has information please come forward as it is illegal for any person here to withhold information which would hinder proper procedure and legal proceedings at this facility.” Ummm…sorry, you are NOT law enforcement. It is not ILLEGAL for ANYONE to withhold ANY information from YOU. And, like it or not, the LAW (i.e. police, judge, etc.) will decide the “proper procedure and legal proceedings” at your facility, not you!
Also, this is a real gem, “Callegari will take a series of measures to validate the credibility of any witness account(s) to this event.” I would take this as a serious threat. An illegal threat. What are they going to do, break your kneecaps? Pull your fingernails out with pliers? Maybe a little waterboarding?
This document was obviously not vetted by an attorney before being released, which is incredibly stupid. If an attorney did approve it – then the horse’s owner will have an easy day in court against this clown. Boy, Callegari is digging themselves a big, fat hole. I hope they rot in it, right along with Alisaji! (or however the hell you spell it)
I see that she rode the Biltmore 75 miler. So I googled her name and this is what I found. ”
Alisija left her native country of Lithuania because, she said, “Men were dominating and I would have been a slave in the horse world.”
She didn’t want to be dominated by men, yet that is how she trains horses???? Her bio also says she worked in the UAE for an endurance family. I’m sure she didn’t pick up any bad habits there. (sarcasm) The sad part about this story is that is looks as if the barn was only a few feet away. It also sounds like cars driving by in the video. Nobody, NOBODY else saw this and tried to stop it???? I don’t get it.
Lisa Salas, the Odd fArm
I saw that quote from her too and I thought helllloooooooooo issues…
Got a LIVE horse here that does NOT tie and never will. I’ve trained hundreds of horses and have taught many a horse that wouldnt tie to tie (and NO DEAD ONES) but this one will NOT give up. so you know what his owner and I did?
GAVE UP. It’s not a failure to realize some animals cannot change, for whatever reason, but it’s a crime to KILL one over it. Accidents happen, yes, but the facts point to this as no accident. SHAME SHAME SHAME……
When I bought my horse he would fly back at every opportunity. We tried correcting it but nothing seemed to work. So I trained him to ground tie. Left it at that. Then a year later tried again, after him stepping on his lead for the past year when allowed to graze in the yard (supervised) he got use to the pressure on his head and realised he was in control of releasing it and now he’s an angel.
Aha. So I was almost right. Not rollkeured, just a ‘draw rein special’.
Draw reins + a twisted wire? That’s outright abuse right there. Even when correctly used, draw reins are a constant downward contact on the horse’s mouth. I DO know how to use draw reins (although I have sworn never to do so again…I was taught to use them by a trainer who believed in them as a cure for stargazing. I now know that doesn’t work at all). They should NEVER be used with a harsh bit, even if you believe they should be used at all.
Any bets she verbally and emotionally abuses her students as well? It sounds rather like she might…
I think draw reins have a use…it’s called polo.
I;m not sold on draw reins ANYwhere. I know that polo is crazy and rough, and horses are super duper hot and all that, but why why why do the horses have to be so … overtacked? Every single still picture I see of a polo match (if it’s not just the divine Nacho Figueres looking HAWT) features horses with their heads in the air, with draw reins & often gag bits, mouths wide open.
Kind of like all the “artsy” photos of dressage horse necks all sweaty with the veins popping out, overbent and globs of foam all over.
Too many trainers & riders simply crank horses’ heads down and call it “good,” in most disciplines we see this regularly.
We have to have control of the head or it’s actually dangerous for the horse. Imagine if they were slinging their heads around with mallets flying. Draw reins, though not needed on all horses, can help to keep the face straight and stable so they don’t get a mallet in the nose. And if you watch polo, it’s VERY rare for a horse to get hit…so it does work.
That may well be true… it just makes me wince.
At any rate, after reading more about this trainer, and assuming it’s true, who in blue blazes takes a horse on the trail WITH DRAW REINS?!?!
Any horse, and especially a spooky novice horse?
If even one of these stories about her is fact, then… she’s one of those Scary Trainers who only get rich newbies, who in turn think that everyone in horses is terribly cliquish because no one will be nice to them at shows….
Yeah, the major issue with a lot of these training gadgets is you CAN’T release the head quickly.
I’ve seen a horse flip on top of a little kid, thank you sidereins.
I would NEVER use draws for a trail ride, but as far as using draws to crank the head down or nose in… that is not how it is currently done in Arabs. The current way of doing things is that you use straight reins with a latex wrapped snaffle to teach the horse how to flex, soften, and give nose. Once the horse understands this, you then go to the draws and maybe a sharper bit, such as a fishback, or a non-wrapped snaffle to teach the horse to lift the base of his neck. It is not to be used with steady pressure and small release, but to be used with intermittent pressure and BIG release. This then translates to lifting the base of the neck off of the curb.
“Any bets she verbally and emotionally abuses her students as well? It sounds rather like she might…”
HAHA maybe that is why they posted this on the Meet the Trainers page…
“We also have a set of Coaches that substitute or teach Hug and Groom Sessions. Take it from experience many times
professional trainers do not do well with small kiddos. Why? Because a serious strenuous trainer can ruin your passion! Check out our Coaches and you will see why.”
However, we found out there were no witnesses to the accident. In addition, no one ran to, or
for, help and I’m sure any witnesses would have tried to assist in any manner. If any person has
information please come forward as it is illegal for any person here to withhold information which
would hinder proper procedure and legal proceedings at this facility.
ARE THEY FRICKING KIDDING??? I would love to see this go to court!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
At least it looks like they spell checked this letter, there are about a million typos on their website. Losers.
So it appears that she left the horse tied to a tree ALONE if there was no one around to assist!
Funny how the imaginary witness ALREADY TALKED TO THE OWNER’S ATTORNEY, isn’t it?
And how this blog is full of people who have witnessed other Alisija temper tantrums. All I can say to those people is that you had better cowgirl up and testify if you love horses. It’s that simple. Don’t let the process scare you. I’ve been through it and I did the right thing for the horses…you can too.
There still may be someone who saw what happened here who will come forward. People can be shocked and intimidated by acts of violence. Sometimes they take a while to process. Many years ago I witnessed a gratuitous act of cruelty by a horse trainer who was always praised for her kindness by her clients. The horse wasn’t severly injured- at least not physically, but I’ve always wished that I had spoken out- even if I’d been shunned and banished by her disbelieving cult.
If anyone saw what happened, please come forward- you’ll feel better about yourself in years to come.
All saddled up and ready to cowgirl up. Lawyer has been contacted. I pray to god that this woman goes to jail a long time.
THANK YOU!
And being a witness is easy…tell the truth and if they rephrase what you just said, CLARIFY. Every time. No matter how annoyed they get at you doing it. “No, that is not what I said. I said – ” and then repeat EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID.
…they hate it when they’re trying to twist you up and it does not work
Good for you Ciramina!!!!! You may lead others to come forward too since from posts there was at least One Other Trainer there for – the horse tied to his tail and whipped and ‘plenty’ of witnesses!!! Who does that? Wonder if the horse EVER crossed a creek? Great training from an Endurance rider/trainer – don’t they have to train horses to cross creek? Wonder how many of her Endurance students read this blog. Creek crossings should be a non-event, or even a fun event, not a big stress. Maybe he saw or heard something that made him nervous. Maybe there will be other witnesses.
I usually don’t comment, but after finding out what happened last night, I felt the need to, especially since it has to do with this topic. I read this several days ago, and was so upset someone would do this, and then it happened close to home.
The barn I board my horse at breeds sport ponies as well as Hanoverians. In March, a little filly named Lucy was born. The filly was for sale after being weened, and the barn takes great pride in their stock, so they don’t sell to just anyone. They sold (last week) to a couple that had raised young horses before. They had grown up on a horse farm, and family still owns it. The filly was going to be raised with quarter horses around her age.
Keep in mind, that Lucy was handled since the day she was born. She was led in and out of the pasture, and when she was sold, she walked onto the trailer like a champ. She never had ground issues. Apparently she got pushy on the ground. Their solution: tie an 8 month old filly to a solid fence post. She got scared and thrashed so violently she broke her neck. But that isn’t the end of it. They left her there, paralyzed and bleeding, for TWO DAYS. They finally called a vet to “see if they should take her to the vet school”. Of course the vet school immediately did xrays (at owners request) then euthed.
I’m heartsick, having watched this filly grow up. Her mother was put down in August, due to advanced joint problems, and it was her last baby on the ground. I was so angry when I heard, and I can’t stop thinking about the poor little thing. I don’t think I’ll ever get the stupidity and ignorance behind this, and I hope I never will!
Holy SHIT.
I wonder if your animal control/sheriff would at least investigate that if it were reported? Evidence is probably mostly gone at this point…but maybe the vet would do the right thing and talk?
The barn manager is actually a vet assistant. She pressed the people on which vet they called before calling her to see if they should take him to the vet school. They wouldn’t give the name of the vet and were extremely dodgy in their answers. She’s absolutely distraught at having delivered and partially raised the filly. Everyone at the barn is so angry, we do have a sheriff deputy that boards her horse there, and she is trying to get some information. The act wasn’t meant as malicious, just ignorant, but it resulted in extreme suffering and the death of a young animal, and they deserved to be punished. If I had it my way, they’d be hogtied to the same fence for 2 days, but maybe that’s just me. I hope they are never near any animals or children EVER again.
Ignorance is not an excuse.
I completely agree. If you do not know what to do with an 8 month old filly, don’t buy her!!!!! I’m 25 and bought my horse a little over a year ago. I am aware that I don’t know nearly enough to take care of a horse on my own, so I board him at a great barn with someone who lives on property (who happens to be the equine vet assistant), a trainer, safe fencing, etc. Main point- they should never have bought that filly in the first place. I was more aghast that they left her in the stall, still tied up, for 2 days before seeking vet care. She couldn’t eat, drink, or move, and all they did was give her banamine. These people should be prosecuted for animal cruelty!!!
They have a couple of other pages: Why did we post a notice?: http://www.callegarihorses.com/public_notice_why.html
And Facts: which, there is none. It’s “Under Construction”… LOL
If you read the first one, they’re getting a TON of email, a lot of it threatening, cursing, etc. I kinda feel bad for them, but then again… why can’t they “suspend” the trainer until the results of the trial? This happens all the time! “Sorry, we’re unsure what went on, so you can’t work here… But if you’re exonerated, we’ll welcome you back!”
And they are ranting and raving about how there’s no witness because they asked the owner of the dead horse who the witness was and they haven’t been told. Oh, and they’ve tracked down EVERY SINGLE person who was there at that exact time… I find that hard to believe since they have “over 90 boarders” there! HOW would they do that? Is there a sign-in sheet? Video cameras?? Hmmm, if there’s video cameras…
I love that with a major shit storm raining down on their heads they have the presence of mind to market their barn. They offer top of the line Barn Master products and have a cornacopias of wash racks for every need!
Yeah, I also was wondering how they tracked down EVERY SINGLE person who was at the facility when this took place. It seems like there are some boarders keeping protecting the witness and that the BO is trying desperately to find out who it is so they can threaten them like they did ALL the boarders in their very weird letter…
Can’t wait to see how this all ends…
http://36andsingle.blogspot.com/
Oh one more thing… Alisijas favorate saying is “Horses only understand two things in life: FEAR AND PAIN”
I can’t help but wonder if she ment “Horses only understand two things in life WHEN TRAINING WITH ME: FEAR AND PAIN”
Oh, for a .wav file of THAT…
That ‘statement’ by Callegari is pathetic. Whoever wrote it is cut from the same cloth as Alisija! It seems they’re trying to intimidate potential witnesses to this case (and past abuse) from coming forward. I hope people realize that testimony in a case is considered privileged and thus you can’t be sued for slander/libel/business disparagement for your testimony!!
This is sooooo Alisija’s style: intimidate, threaten to sue, blackmail….I hope everyone who has witnessed her freak-outs (and I’m guessing there are many) will contact the lawyer who’s representing the owner of the horse she beat to death. Don’t let her (and her sister-in-law? Candace Callegari’s maiden name is Granger??? Or was that a misprint) bully you into silence.
If I boarded at Callegari, I would move my horses out of there ASAP!!
They should totally keep talking.
I am thinking that if this does not settle, I may have to go watch the trial. It would be worth taking the time off!
Nope. The Callegari’s have no familial relation to the Grangers. It’s obviously a typo
Please, please, please never tie a horse with bungee cords! If they’re the kind with a metal hook on the end (or any kind of metal or plastic fastener) they can do HORRIFIC damage. I was in 4-H with another kid who had a horse with one eye because he was cross-tied with bungee cords, one of the cords snapped, and the hook RIPPED OUT HIS EYE. Zip, gone. It’s not worth the risk- don’t do it.
Sorry, prev posted reply didn’t seem to make it…
I think when most (non fugly) horse people talk about bungees, they mean the ties used for trailers or cross ties that have a bit of “stretch†to them. Not actual elastic bungee cords with hooks that you’d use to tie down cargo, or at least I hope not! Gak, wrong, no! All of the bungees I’ve ever seen have the usual d panic snaps at one end for quick release rather than hooks.
I saw the bungees in the horse shop, and thought it was a great idea! And it had the panic snap, etc. BUT, I honestly think some people would read “bungee” and think of the bungee cords with the metal hooks on them for tying down tarps, etc.
When I saw the bungee stuff, I was thinking they meant bungee cords for tarps/trailers, and tie the bungee around the tree / fence whatever, then tie the lead to the bungee. NOT tie the horse USING the bungee! Either way, I don’t think they’re really strong enough to withstand a horse pulling hard. I find (when using bungees to tie tarps and such – not horses) that if you exert enough pull on it, the cord comes out of the hook part anyway.
But I’m glad someone (you) noted there’s a difference in case someone out there didn’t realize it.
I’m reading the callegari why? notice right now
a bunch of bullshit
it sounds like a teenaged girl bitching about a recent breakup with her boyfriend..
“Taught to tie ??? Thats a new one! What will they say next?
Oh my god. Can you believe the Citizenry here! And they admit they don’t know what happened! So
threaten Callegari instead. Listen people we are US Citizens. We follow the law. And don’t you realize
that by creating a smear campaign you tie a business’ hands.”
-one of the idiot callegari’s
Wow. Those “notices” are some crazy backpedaling “not OUR fault” CYA shit. Witness intimidation, anyone? “Come forward or else”? Not to mention their comment “we’ll find out who it was anyway when it goes to court!” Who says that kind of crap?
It kind of tells you something if the witness isn’t coming forward to speak the barn owners, doesn’t it? And that the the owner refuses to tell them who it is, big shock. My guess is that the witness is scared of some kind of retaliation and the owner is protecting their identity until they can speak out in court where it really matters. If I owned a boarding barn, I would want to know immediately about any concerns, which means that your boarders have to trust you. I’d also be pretty goddamn careful about vetting and monitoring any trainer working on my property precisely because of the potential for this kind of issue.
If the barn owners had half a brain, they would suspend the trainer until this is all resolved, but the fact that she’s working there in the first place and that they seem to think posting grade school type justifications on the net instead of a simple “this is being investigated by the proper authorities, here’s what we’ve done to address the issue, if you know anything please go to the police/SPCA/whatever” doesn’t really speak to their powers of judgement.
I’d like to add that I feel somewhat sorry for the barn owners here if they really had no idea what was going on, leaving aside that they SHOULD at least monitor the trainers who are working on their property. People sending nasty threatening emails are idiots. If you know something, don’t waste time with the barn owners. Contact the lawyer who posted here, or the owner of the horse. A successful lawsuit will do far more to prevent this “trainer” from ever touching another horse again.
Trust me when I tell you, the BO is aware of every single thing that happens around that barn. They CHOOSE NOT TO ACKNOWLEDGE, or address any issues. They have a “We are a FUN barn” reply to every complaint they receive. They also have a don’t ask about Alisijas training metods, and don’t tell us when you see things you disaprove of. I’m honestly shocked that they are taking this as seriously as they are (even if they are taking every wrong path in the process.
I do have one question, I’d like to throw out there… A 10 year old TB gelding in Houston, TX the month of November 2010 the average temp was 62 degrees. So what was the extreme event that caused such a young healthy horse to die of a massive, and sudden heart attack????
My guess would be the massive loss of blood from the head wound… Or the adrenalin from the physical abuse he prob sustained…
I admit I’ve had a few horses I’d have loved to beat to death once or twice, but I always walk away because no good can ever come from that feeling. Only once can I say that I lost my temper with a horse, and even then once I got him off me (horse in question attacked while I was cleaning his pen and got his teeth into my face) I didn’t beat him- Yes, I whaled on him from pure fear/instinct while he had a hold, but as soon as he let go I backed out of his pen. I never want to relive that experience, and I even spent time the next day trying to make up for having hit him. He never feared me for what happened, though I never fully trusted him and thankfully the trainer I was working for allowed me to take whatever time I needed when I was dealing with that horse to keep everyone in question safe.
For tying, my kid was renowned for breaking whatever tied him- he’d learned that he could snap cross ties and halters by setting back and would do it whenever he got bored. He was one who needed to learn that setting back had consequences, and a good rope halter, an extra long rope, a well set tie ring and a ton of patience taught him that. Ties like a champ now to anything, no beatings needed and also had the benefit of teaching him to trust me to tie him safely. He now can get his halter stuck on something (through his own innate Saddlebred abilities) and he’ll stand and start looking for me and calling instead of panicking.
I also know a draft mix gelding who was a fellow who sometimes would pull back if startled. Rather than put the time into retraining a periodic issue, the owner invested in a tie blocker and started smacking him in the backside with a piaffe whip whenever he’d shift his weight back, regardless of if he was actually pulling back. He can no longer be tied to anything because he learned from that ring that he didn’t ever need to respect being tied, and that if he runs backwards not only does he get loose but the people get out of his way.
ok this is what i found about seattle..
http://www.randmstables.com/ourhorses.html
Seattle – For Sale or Lease
Seattle is a 10 year old Thoroughbred gelding. He is still in training, so not for the inexperienced rider. He is 17 hands, tall and strong. This horse loves to jump and really wants to perform. He is a descendent of Seattle Slew, high spirited and fast. He is being trained as a Hunter Jumper and will compete in shows soon. This is a horse for the serious, experienced rider.
Alisija appears to have a reputation for abusing both horses and people in at least the UAE and the US. One former Callegari boarder claimed that Alisija whipped and beat every horse she (the former boarder) saw her handle.
Now that Alisija has apparently killed a horse, I hope that she will be prohibited from any type of contact with horses for the rest of her life. It is too bad she wasn’t put out of business by lack of clients before this happened. (Although that would not prevent her from abusing horses that she owned herself.)
The lawsuit is against “Alisija Zabavska Granger, Candace Granger, and Callegari Equine Technologies, LLC dba Callegari Equestrian Club and Callegari Arabians.†The Callegari Equestrian Club Public Notice is signed by Eduardo and Candace Callegari. Are Candace Granger and Candace Callegari the same person? Is she a sister to Alisija Granger’s husband?
The Callegari website “Why Issue NOTICE†page says, “This from my brothers ex-girlfriend! Yes, they dated off and on for 2-3 years. It was a very turbulent relationship, especially this last year, and it ended badly not too long ago.†I assume they are talking about the owner.
If I understand it correctly the wife of Mrs. Callegari’s brother killed the horse of the ex-girlfriend of one of the Callegari’s brother. It sounds like this has the potential to be a real soap opera. If it weren’t for the “killed the horse†part, it could be quite amusing.
okk well her horse flipped on top of her in a little river type thing by caligari (its were you go on the trails) she got back and had a cut on her forehead………she went and tied her horses head to its tail and whipped it with a lounge line till he fell down luckily one of my friend’s trainers went in the round pen and physically drug her away from the horse .
OT: I had an Asadd son in the 80′s, loved him so much I tried (unsuccessfully) to buy Asadd himself from Chaunceys who owned Asadd at that time. My guy was acquired from people who tried to turn him into an open English horse, which he was not. I evented him. Fearless jumper. Very, very fast. The son he sired before he was gelded was Arabian Racehorse of the Year (told you, speeeeeed, highly heritable) in I think 1987 (?). Great minded athletic horses, those Asadd get.
Asadd was GORGEOUS! That horse was my image of the ideal Arabian.
OT, I am the proud caretaker of Asadd’s youngest daughter. And proud owner of one of her daughters.
I can say with certainty they are by far two of the smartest horses I’ve come across.
Hi, are you talking about Asadds Aristocrat? I own him now
The owner (Roseanne Carr aka Byers) of the horse (Seattle) that was killed was dating Candace Callegari’s (barn owner) brother. He would not marry her and she is pissed. So some of the fuel for her lawsuit is grudge related I think because the Callegaris have distanced themselves from her. Roseann is a well known nutjob. She has a reputation for being a drunk and its been alleged that she beat Seattle while drunk a time or two before she ever sent him to Alisija for training. I heard that the SPCA has also investigated her (Roseanne) for abuse.
DId Alisija make a mistake by tying the horse for a bath? I think so. Is she is bich? Yes. Did she beat the horse? I doubt it.
There is a lot more to this story folks and the only winners in the end will be the attorneys.
I highly doubt that… if she was holding SUCH a grudge… why the hell was her horse there? If they “just” broke up, I’d think she’d remove the horse from there immediately if she was so angry. Sounds like she has a place of her own, so it’s not like she had nowhere to take the horse!
Your explanation doesn’t make any sense.
The split occurred after the horse died.
Additionally, your are correct, she has her own boarding/training facility. As the self proclamed trainer that she is, why send the horse off for training in the first place. Hummmm?
No matter how much mud you throw at the other party, it won’t change what happened to that horse…and I doubt it will change people’s views of Alisija, either (at least those who’ve seen her freak out with animals and people!).
So true, unfortunately there will be no winners and the horse will still be dead. The law for animal abuse in Texas is pretty narrow, and proving it will be challenging, so that leaves the civil suit. Unfortunately, even proving the first of four elements in a negligence case (duty, breach and proximate cause), you are left with damages. It’s sad to say, but a 10 year old TB with little or no training/show history etc. will value at about $500 to $1000 dollars, and I’d say that is generous considering race trainers from tracks all over the country, especially here in Texas are moving them as “free to good home.†This ends up a small-claims case at the least and a “principle†case at best if a lawyer actually decides to take it. In any event, it will all boil down to the necropsy report and an eye-witness. And, this will be interesting to see because what started out as an anonymous call to the owner has turned into an actual eye-witness, and TAMU will be hard pressed to say for sure that this was definitely the result of abuse.
I can’t believe you could say something like that. A life is a life is a life. Putting a price on how much a life is worth sounds like something Alisija would do.
You sound an awful lot like chiquitasmom
It’s OK little-one. It’s about establishing damages for a law suit, not the sentimental value of a horse, which is priceless!
People sue each other over dogs and cats all the time. All they can recover under the law is the fair market value of the animal. Sentimental value means nothing. 10 year old unraced thoroughbred geldings with apparent behaviour problems (“experienced rider only” is code for that) can be had for little, or nothing, in this area. Furthermore, if she was so attached to this horse, why was she trying to sell him?
You’re wrong. It’s not true that all they can recover is the fair market value of the animal. In fact, specifically in Texas, the state in this case, courts have allowed damage claims for the owner’s emotional distress. It’s not consistent but it does happen.
(While researching, I found a case I want to post because it’s interesting: In Fredeen v. Stride the jury awarded a dog owner $4,000 in damages for mental anguish caused by the loss of her dog. This is an Oregon case:
Fredeen left her dog with her veterinarian, Dr. Stride, instructing him to destroy him. The dog needed surgery but Fredeen could not afford it. Stride’s employees became fond of the dog and, with Stride’s permission, helped him regain his health. Stride did not inform Fredeen but instead gave the dog to someone else. About six months later, Fredeen saw the dog with its new owner. She contacted Stride to get her dog back but he referred her to the new owner.
Fredeen sued Stride for conversion of her property. The court allowed the jury to consider her mental distress as an element of damages.
FHOTD back in: INTERESTING. I think the vet did the right thing but he should have obtained Fredeen’s permission. She did not, however, in my mind, have ANY right to the dog anymore. But Stride should have convinced her to surrender the dog legally – then he’d have been fine.)
Yep, Rosane (sp?) could kill puppies in her spare time for fun… I wouldn’t agree with or like what she does, but it doesn’t change what Alisija did to her horse.
Oh, but yeah, I love how you take MY argument (that the owner has facilities so if she had such a grudge with the BOs she absolutely would have moved her horse immediately) and twisted it around to suit your needs.
No not at all. Your comment was a fact not an arugment. My argument was that if she is a trainer why send the horse off.
What exactly did Alisija do to her horse? I’m just curious since you seem to be so sure that you know.
Oh My!!! So what you are saying in the first two sentences is that because the Barn Owner’s brother didn’t marry someone, the trainer killed a horse, and the barn owners & trainer who run a business are not held liable? If you didn’t get a ring from Prince Charming, your horse will die too!!! What great logic!!!! Are you a drama queen or what!
I guess your child does Endurance with the trainer that teaches kids to tie horses nose to their tail and whip the crap out of them if they don’t feel like crossing a creek? Do you agree with that type of training?
Sad thing is, the owner of the dead horse can’t respond because she is trying to KEEP THE HIGH ROAD!!! Can you too, please Keep The High Road – what kind of an Ax To Grind do you have?????
Actually OakDressage1, your interpretation of what I said injected far more drama than I could dream up. My point here is that she was sure eager to name the barn owners in this suit for an alleged action of the trainer. They don’t control her training, nor do they get a percentage of her fees, and from what I gather this is the first complaint of this nature regarding this trainer that they are aware of, and they have no way to corroborate the rumors.
Oh, sorry, forgot to mention. I absolutely do not agree with the training methods your describe, and no my child does not ride with this triner.
Look at the randmstables website. RoseAnn Byers (aka Carr) is the trainer there (and Seattle the gelding is listed for sale as noted in a previous post by someone else).
IMO this horse didn’t have a prayer.
Maybe some folks don’t know about Callegari, and maybe some do. Backstory, anyone? Here’s an interesting item posted in the Chronicle forums yesterday:
#38 Dec. 22, 2010, 05:02 PM
AggieDQ
Training Level Join Date: Nov. 7, 2008
Location: TX
Posts: 15
——————————————————————————-
I am not familiar with this specific trainer. However, the Houston SPCA should have more info about the owner of this facility. They have made multiple trips to this barn prior to this incident.
NOTE: The lawsuit names Candace Callegari, not Candace Granger. There is no Candace Granger.
Was there ever a Candace Granger? If so, did she marry Eduardo Callegari? Is she a sister to Alicija Zabavsha Granger’s husband?
I think when most (non fugly) horse people talk about bungees, they mean the ties used for trailers or cross ties that have some “stretch” to them. Not actual bungee cords with hooks, gak, wrong, no!
So Callegari deleted the “What are the facts?” tab, and now there is a “Summation” tab which reads:
“Callegari Equestrian Club
DATE: December 23rd, 2010
REGARDING: Tragic accident involving death of a horse named Seattle
on November 19th 2010
We hope you can see how serious everyone at Callegari is taking this matter. In all of our
endeavors we strive for open communication and honesty with our boarders. We remain
committed to truth and resolution. To date, we have not found a witness to this unfortunate
accident. And there is no reason that someone would not come forward. Our clients love being
at the facility. Everyone here is always willing to help. They care about each other, the facility,
and the horses. Callegari is pro-family and pro-animal. We have made every effort to seek out
all possible witnesses to obtain all details regarding this matter.
In addition, we have walked the property lines, and we have stood in the area in which the
incident occurred, and you cannot physically see this area from any of our property lines.
Therefore, it is physically impossible for a witness to have seen anything from off of the
property. Further, do to the multiple structures, and restrictions, this area is obscured, and
unable to be seen from very many places at all.
It is our sincere hope that all parties involved will find resolution,
Eduardo and Candace Callegari”
They are trying to distance themselves from the entire thing BIG TIME. I don’t understand how they can say they’ve made “every effort” when obviously they were just bashing the owner of the dead horse in their previous notice. If this were a barn of merit, you’d think they’d shut their mouths and get some kind of legal counsel/representation and go from there. There are reasons why witnesses don’t talk…and you know it could simply be that the person(s) is probably terrified of being ostracized by their “barn family” right now, and feels that they are doing all they need to do by alerting the owner, and speaking to authorities & lawyers.
Oy vey…
All I can say is, it’s turned into a classic example of SHUT UP AND GET A LAWYER.
Aaaaah, so now they admit that it’s not visible from many areas!
So, Alisija took the horse to a spot where it was unlikely she would be seen. Someone else (can’t remember who) was going on about how it was such a high visibility area.
Yeah, the BO seems to be a dolt in the whole thing. At least they’re not threatening in that one. But there are reasons people wouldn’t come forward to the BOs – because of the notices (threatening, hello?) and fear of retaliation from Alisija herself. I said it before, and I’ll say it again; there is NO reason the witness has to go talk to the BO. None whatsoever.
>So, Alisija took the horse to a spot where it was unlikely she would be seen. Someone else (can’t remember who) was going on about how it was such a high visibility area.
Yep, the seclusion of the area shows premeditation for the abuse. You train a horse in the barn area, you take it out behind the barn for an ass whipping.
I understand that both sides of the story want this to have occurred in an obscure, back part of the property — the Callegaris/Alisija so they can justify their claim of no witnesses and everyone else so that it seems more premeditated and evil on Alisija’s part.
However, the reality is that this spot is really very visible from several barns, several rings, several paths, etc. If you pull up Google Maps and use satellite view, there are four structures to find: two large covered structures with a covered walkway between them (main barn and arena), a building with a white roof (other large barn) and a stand-alone building with a gray roof (training barn). The area this occurred in is located between the building with the white roof and the training barn. The arena is only covered — no walls — so you can see right from the parking lot to the area where this occurred.
I realize it sounds better for both sides to claim this is an isolated little area, but one look at the satellite picture makes it clear that’s just not true.
This letter sounds like a full blown confession that the BO knew what was going on with the trainer, GEEZUZ!! It also sounds like the trainer has probably used this place before to beat horses, and that makes it even more possible that people where watching. I know for a fact that at large boarding barns where there lots of people not all of them are going to get along, and if some one was already onto Alisija then they may have known exactly where to stand and watch (probably with their barn friends) her beat the horse! I also know if their are teen girls around they love drama and would be quick to follow her around if they didnt like what she was doing….
Really these letters just say to me that the BO was very much aware of Alisijas “training meathod” but bought into the “Shes a really great rider (NOT) and has some big accomplishments” to try to make some money or to just ease the burden from the other trainers they have.
This was a beautifully written blog and gave everyone opportunities to express themselves on this trainer. The trainer and barn owner seem to have very similar personalities – both drama queen bullies!
They never said why it took so long to hunt for an eye witness…the death happened November 19 and the BO posted a letter on December 22nd. About 24 hours after the civil case was filed? Talk about CYA and damage control!!
Keep up the good work fuguly!!
I am not a lawyer but I would think a good defense attorney would call for a separation of the parties named. It seems as no one is denying that this trainer is responsible for the horse being tied to a tree and something happening to result in the animal’s death. However, I am not sure how the BO are responsible for this incident.
There are so many scenarios concerning trainers:
Trainer hired by the barn and representing the barn (even salaried)
Trainers who pro-fit share with the BO
Trainers who “rent space” and bring in their own clients who pay separately from other boarders
Trainers who are brought in by the barn for “pay as you go sessions”
Trainers who do per ride work but don’t pay anything to the BO
Trainers who trailer in to use the facility and pay a usage fee to the barn
Trainers who board with the barn and are allowed to train but the barn has nothing to do with them
From 2001-2003, I boarded in a facility which allowed 3 different trainers “arena time”. The trainers were charged a monthly fee for using the arena and boarders were not allowed in this arena during the training sessions (There were 3 indoors and the trainers were given the smallest to use). The trainers were allowed to work on horses other times but were charged a “per session” fee of $10 to use round pens and $15 to use the arenas. The barn owners and managers made it clear that anyone using the trainer’s services were contracting between the trainer and themselves and they made the trainers provide insurance documentation as well as provide releases holding them harmless. In 2003, we left along with 9 other boarders & all 3 trainers after an incident in the arena during a scheduled training session. The 3 trainers were collaborating to do a clinic with interested riders. The topic was softening transitions and riders were working in both English and Western tack. There were green riders and green horses. A boarder who had not signed up for the session asked to “jump in” and signed up with one of the trainers at the last minute. Not five minutes after the women entered the ring with her horse, he freaked out (for no apparent reason). She fell, got hung up, drug, and broke her collar bone and her elbow. EMS was called and the training session ended. The trainers had a short discussion about whether or not to reschedule the session and it was decided to return everyone’s $. (As an aside: the BO refused to give the trainers’ their arena fees back to them). Less then a month later, everyone in the ring, the trainers, the barn manager, the BOs, and even three spectators were all named in a lawsuit for gross negligence. It went no where due to state equine statutes and signed waivers releasing everyone from pretty anything. The fact was, I was merely sitting on my horse at a halt when her horse came blowing past me out of control. It was pretty much all I could do to keep my green horse quiet, dismount and get out of the way. In a letter left stapled to my horse’s stall, the woman and her husband stated they felt I was partially to blame because when the horse came past me, I did not reach out grab the reins of her horse nor make any move help her prior to the fall. They further went on to state that they had seen me reach down and grab my own child’s reins on more than one occasion in the past both in the indoor, outdoor, and on hacks, so it only seemed reasonable that I should have been willing to help her as I had the know how to stop this horse thus preventing her fall. I chose to leave since I was very uncomfortable when I found out the BO provided the other boarder everyone’s information. Her husband went to him and basically said that he was suing everyone and needed legal names, addresses, & phone numbers. Personally, I would have refused and waited for a judge to tell me I had to give up the names of the people there. I still wonder how on earth this woman felt the people sitting on the observation deck could have prevent this and were negligent. They didn’t even board at the barn. A friend of theirs signed up for the session and they were sitting on the deck watching.
Having that as background information and watching all the conjecture, the allegations against this trainer, and now the barn as well as some questions as to why the horse was with this trainer if the owner is a trainer and actually had the horse up for sale, I guess it makes me wonder just how responsible anyone is? If there were witnesses to this incident are they not coming forward, not out of fear of the trainer or even the BO but out of fear of the owner herself. Is it possible if they saw the incident and did nothing to stop it, could they be named as a party to abuse or held responsible for the death of her horse.
I have seen where a bystander stepped in to give CPR to someone who was dying, saved them and then got sued for breaking the other person’s rib, bruising them, or invading their personal space (even sexual harassment…one lady tried to sue a man because he touched her breasts while giving CPR). It makes you wonder if the age of Good Samaritan is over and it truly is the age of CYA…..
Interesting to read the YouTube comments on this.
A certain party who has been strongly defending Alisija has written that ‘the Callegaris and Alisija have it in their power’ to take action against people for their comments regarding this matter. Oh really??!!
As I’ve written before: TYPICAL ALISIJA!! She threatened to sue SO many people in the UAE…and what happened in the end? She spent one week in jail, was deported, then came back on a fake passport, was caught, eyescanned and deported again.
I really hope people aren’t intimidated by her. Time to put a stop to her BS!
False accusations are a serious matter, when you’re talking about defaming a business. The people involved really should be intimidated. In fact, it looks like they already are, if you read the backpedaling going on YouTube. It’s important to realize that some of the commenters on YouTube are children, and will be treated as such. However, the owner and her trainer are not, and should have known better than to fabricate such a story to support their personal vendetta.
I’ve been reading all the comments there, and I actually DON’T see any backpedaling… although I do see a few “supporters” going on about backpedaling. If you actually read humphreys comments, there’s no backpedaling.
She only states once that she doesn’t believe the trainer intentionally killed the horse. I then used the example of the drunk driver not intending to kill another driver on the road. The choices we make every day effect others, and IF the trainer lost her temper with the horse, then she is to blame – even if it wasn’t intentional.
There’s a lot of bullying, and twisting of words, and making up of stuff on YouTube though!
As for me, I think there has been a lot of mud-slinging that isn’t necessary – from both sides of the fence.
I agree as well – I do not believe the INTENT was to kill the horse, either.
I don’t know this trainer and I don’t know what happened, but alot of you think a horse tied short to a tree can’t bash its head in and I know you’re wrong about that. When I was a kid I decided to teach my little race-bred q.h mare to tie by tieing her short to a tree, she pulled, jumped forward, pulled, jumped forward, bashed her head into the tree, and collapsed. I had to cut the halter to set her loose, if she hadn’t collapsed I don’t know how I would have freed her. The vet came out to check her over, she had bashed in her sinus cavity below one eye. She recovered and didn’t lose the eye, but I never tried to tie her again. She had been tied very short, maybe 16 inches.
Just as a heads up, for further updates, you may want to take note of the conversations and backpeddling being done over on the YouTube threads concerning this matter. As mentioned above, there are plenty of folks who are clueless and truly talking just to raise some trouble. The original people trying to claim the horse was being abused are now stating it was hearsay. In fact thus far it has all come down to hearsay.
There were NO marks on this horse indicating that it had been hit, whipped or “beaten” (a word that appeared to have begun circulating after the original post here?). The people facing legal trouble may actually include the owner of the horse, and not the trainer or Callegari Stables. I am a strong FHOTD supporter and have been for many years, and I plan to remain so. I believe the story behind this was twisted and vindictive toward the barn and this trainer for personal reasons when someone saw the opportunity to cause harm.
It would appear that this horse was tied, panicked and having lost the option to “flee” the situation, set back and fought the tree to the point of a brain aneurysm. Even in the video, you can see that a water hose was extended toward the horse. Further indication that the horse was merely tied out in the open after being ridden to be hosed down/bathed, as the horse was proned to panic in any other sort of tying situation, and wet concrete is dangerous.
Again I was NOT there, but I am in close contact with the Callegari’s, and they have dug and dug and found NO witnesses and NO indication that this horse was being mistreated. For whatever it is worth at this point, it may be best to just move to another case. Kathy, it would be far more accurate to put “allegedly reported by non-witnesses” in front of this statement, if not best to alter it completely: “Like tying a horse to a tree and beating it ’til it winds up dead?” I do hope that FHOTD is still looking for truth, and willing to make corrections when appropriate to do so.
Thank you,
Shannon McCullough
Boarder @ Callegari Equestrian Club since 1999
marzbarz, given that you have identified yourself as one who knows the situation, you can put this to bed by answering a question that no Alisija Granger/Callegari supporter has responded to:
How did so much blood get on that tree?
It was NOT from one bash on the head, or even two or three. I do not believe any horse would repeatedly bash it’s head to the extent that the blood on that tree illustrates without giving in to exhaustion and standing to be released UNLESS IT WAS BEING MENACED.
Please do not propose the brain aneurysm theory again, it shows ignorance of the actual possibilities and makes your comments suspect. With the possible exception of a Stephen King novel a cerebral aneurysm does not result in blood spurting out of eyes and nostrils like a waterfall. And I have seen an equine nasal injury – It resulted in a spray pattern in the head-tossing horse, not a soaked area.
If you don’t believe the truth is being discussed here and you are in “close contact with the Calligeris†please put our minds at rest and tell us how so much blood got on that tree.
As Marzbarz said, no one knows… it’s all speculation at this point… if no one has any proof other than blood on a tree and a dead horse, it proves nothing… is it a tragedy that the horse is dead, yes… but until someone can PROVE what happens I don’t see how anything is going to happen.
Well, that’s why there is a lawsuit…so it can be proven, one way or the other.
tbs_and_stangs says: “…if no one has any proof other than blood on a tree and a dead horse, it proves nothing… ”
You are kidding, right? I have been boarding at all kinds of places from show barns to mom and pop set-ups for decades but I’ve never run across a bloody tethering area. Is a blood-soaked whuppin’ tree something that higher-end training establishements offer as a usual amenity?
The fact that, once again, no-one supporting Calligeri or bad-mouthing the owner’s council can offer even a wildy speculative explanation for it’s existence, sure as heck proves that SOMETHING unprofessional has been going on.
What bizarre comments.
Hmmmm…and the most bizarre is the supposed ‘explanation’ of the bloody tree. Interesting that it took them what, 1 week to put that story together?
The most hilarious comment so far has been the one which included a description of Alisija as ‘gentle and warm’…I’ve known her since 1995, and that’s the first I’ve EVER heard those words used to describe her! What a load of BS.
Yes, Saphia, it is clearly understood that you, too, have a vendetta. Fortunately, it’s not a crime or a breach of duty to be a bitch. Hum?
MEOWWWWW!!!!!!!!
Again, the horse fractured his skull while fighting the tree, and sustained a large cut on his head. You are having an emotional reaction to the sight of blood on a tree. It’s an accident scene, not a crime scene. The accompanying “facts” of what happened were largely made up by a 20-year old girl, although now that she realizes she’s in hot water, she’s trying to back off and blame the horse’s owner for them. Is a shame a horse died? Of course. Is it something a trainer should lose her job or reputation over? No. Any of us, if we are involved with enough horses long enough is highly likely to experience some kind of an accident. I know I have. As to the boarding facility, it’s the very best in the area. And not one boarder has left because of this incident, nor do I know of any that plan to. If you don’t want to board there, or use Alisija, it’s your choice. Please have some respect for those of us that do.
Actually, I have done some further research into this, speaking with Alisija and conferring with several vets. Maybe I can shed some more light on the blood issue. The horse was not tied with any sort of actual knot, but set back hard enough in one motion jthat the rope, which had been wound to just allow one part of it to overlap over a curved portion of the lead for easy self release, became imbedded. The horse, having lost the opportunity to “flee” from the situation, began the stubborn steady set-back form of fight – in a state where horses (and people) are unable to rationalize. When Alisijia approached to cut the lead, the horse reared and struck at her repeatedly. He had struck the tree one time with his head. Upper area of the head. (It is not my job to convince anyone, so don’t bash me on this, I’ve asked professionals and the one person who was there on site, it is what I’ve been told.) He wound himself around the tree until he ran out of energy and finally stood still. THIS is when he rested his head against the tree and the blood from the head wound poured down the tree. (We all know that head wounds bleed a lot. No artery had been hit that I’m aware of, but it was a large gash from what I understand.) At this time Alisija was able to approach with a pair of scissors to cut the halter itself without cutting the horse. Once freed, Alisija said he galloped off a ways, slowed to a walk and then collapsed, where he died.
Re: Brain aneurysm comment – I read somewhere (I’ve truly lost track) that an autopsy showed a brain aneurysm, but please do not take that as a proven fact, as it is hearsay. When I look at the blood pattern on the tree, which would turn anyone’s stomach, I can see how a head gash on a horse that is leaning against it would produce exactly that sort of stain. The video itself even shows the water hose that Alisijia was trying to spray him down with. Again, NO evidence of any beating. That comment came from the same person (owner) who is being sued for false allegations made in various places.
And to clarify one other thing. There is actual documentation from the owner stating not to “cross-tie” this horse. There is nothing stating not to tie him. Apparently there was commentary that he could break any halter or some such, but no cross-tying was tried, and the stocks are a much more frightening setting for this horse. (I’ve had horses flip out, slip and fall on their backs, and attempt to jump out of them.)
I agree with Fugly/Kathi here – let the legal proceeedings reveal the truth. The rest is hearsay/innuendo. Please note that I’m not bad-mouthing anyone, nor am I criticizing the questions put forth. I understand the reasons for the questions. I’ve done what I can to answer them.
I have trained hard to tie horses and usualy it was due to an idot who screwed up the tying training in the first session of teaching the horse to tie. NONE of my horses ever spilled blood in that training process (or any other training processes for that matter). I hope that woman gets her bloody head kicked off one day. NO EXCUSE!!!
No good horse has an ugly colour.
Zanne,
I’m so glad you pointed this out. Roseann has owned this 10 Yr old TB since it was 6 months old!
Barn Moms always have the answers don’t they? You sound more like a sister in law!
if you worked in retail, lost your temper at a customer, and screamed at them- you would lose your job.
if you worked as a nurse, lost your temper at a patient, and screamed at them- you would lose your job.
if you worked at a school, lost your temper at a student, and screamed at them- you would lose your job.
i think you get the point here….
Why on earth is anyone, in any situation with horses, allowed to lose their temper and be abusive- verbally or physically? Why is it so acceptable in the Horseworld when anywhere else you would be out on your arse?
My Sister went to schooling day once where the “Trainer” chased her horse with a stockwhip WHILE MY 10 YEAR OLD SISTER WAS ON IT’S BACK to make it go over a jump. Everyone watching was mortified, parents, other students…totally shocked. Did she continue with the school? Did the the other 19 children continue with the school?
Of course they did!!!
This kind of behaviour is EVERYONE’S FAULT. Make a stand people!!
GREAT POST!
She isn’t screaming at people. Really. I see her training every day. Her students are on horses, circling the arena, many yards from where she is standing. She wishes them to hear her instructions, so she does shout, in an effort to be heard. We did have a trainer there who used some kind of a wireless device and so was able to speak in her “inside voice” to her students, who were wearing headphones. Perhaps Alisija would want to consider one of those, just to shut people up who are jumping to conclusions about her. Or maybe not. It’s her choice. Either way, she’s a well-respected and successful teacher/trainer. She does not abuse horses. The type of horses she takes on for training, also known as “problem horses” tend to require firmer training than say, an old plug like mine, but she doesn’t abuse them. The Callegaris absolutely do not permit that anywhere on their property.
I have a few questions for you… barnmom, same to you.
There are several people here saying they’ve had experience with and/or witnessed outbursts of temper with Alisija.
There are several people here denying there are any problems with the trainer at all, and saying she’s a great person.
Either you’re saying (a) flat-out the first group are a bunch of liars and are completely fabricating every single incident, or (b) you haven’t witnessed anything but it’s possible she has a temper.
Which is it?
Do you think that just because you haven’t personally witnessed someone doing something bad, that means it didn’t happen? Do you understand that there are people who seem great, normal, nice, kind even, that go home and beat their spouse or kids? Or that someone can have a temper that when it explodes God help anyone in their path (even if it happens rarely)?
I’m not trying to be smarmy here, but how are we defining temper. And are we saying that someone with a temper is automatically a bad person? I have more to add, but wanted to clarify this point.
It isn’t whether or not you have a temper.
It’s whether or not you allow it to control your actions.
If you can seethe quietly and not scream at people or beat horses, then kudos to you.
You are being smarmy. What part of “someone can have a temper that when it explodes God help anyone in their path (even if it happens rarely)” did you not get?
You’re bright.
♫♫♫ I know you are but what am I? ♫♫♫
God I feel sorry for your kid.
Grow up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6oep-ZtggE
With 90 borders and none of the trainers finest customers are coming to the stand, me
Thinks Group-Think has sat in like a ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ mentality about this rank trainer. Dead spirits. I’d like to buy them a dozen quick release clips at least, to hang on the wash trees.
I believe I can answer that. Most, but not all, of Alisija’s students are children with an interest in showing. I don’t see many children in here, at least not at first glance. I have never used her training services myself because I have no interest in showing (I get more than enough competition at work, thanks) and my horse is dead-broke. She tends to specialize in training horses that are hot/wild/have a problem of some sort.
A screaming psychotic instructor and barn owners who made no effort to audit the quality of their instructors lessons is why I left my last lesson barn. The screaming and hair pulling in the center of the ring was deplorable especially when it’s a grown woman teaching beginner riders.
Fugs, quick question… how long has barnmom been a member here?
Just registered recently.
I figured as much!
“She isn’t screaming at people…She wishes them to hear her instructions, so she does shout, in an effort to be heard.†Okay, that was FUNNY!
What I get out of what the Callegari barn members have posted:
One-true-texan: “I have some factual information here regarding what happened…He was tied with a quick-release knot…There were no witnesses.†(Makes me wonder who provided this scuttlebutt. I might have guessed the trainer but…) Marzbarz: “I have done some further research into this, speaking with Alisija and conferring with several vets…The horse was not tied with any sort of actual knot, but…the rope, which had been wound to just allow one part of it to overlap over a curved portion of the lead for easy self release, became imbedded.” Hmmm.
It will be very interesting to see how this all pans out.
Just my opinion but I don’t get that Saphia is engaged in a vendetta, I hear someone who is tired of everyone kissing an unprofessional trainer’s butt and is glad that they’ve been “outedâ€, and isn’t that pretty much what this blog is about? On the other hand calling Saphia “a bitch”, asadlover “little one”, and being sarcastic when people don’t agree with YOU, comes off as condescending and unpleasant. I’m not really sure what that accomplishes. Perhaps you hurt some of our Fugly feelings but I doubt it!
One of Alisija’s defenders posted that she is a ‘straight shooter’ and does not lie. Why, then, has she claimed to be on the Lithuanian junior show-jumping team? I know for a fact that this is not true, and any of you could find this out as well, if you bothered to check.
Regarding her screaming, here it was at grooms, horses, various boyfriends, people she considered her ‘lessers’… I have seen her temper tantrums firsthand and they are crazy. There are loads of people in the UAE who have seen her freak out, and she has a well-deserved reputation here which (as I’ve noted before) resulted in her being kicked out of nearly every stable here, and finally out of the country!!
I do not have a vendetta against her–we have well and truly dealt with her here in the UAE.
It simply amazes me how many people are willing to be suckered/conned.
I’m late coming into this story. The comments are fairly equal for and against.
I come to FHOTD to learn things even though I’ve been a recreational rider for almost 20 years. Something I learned early on regarding horses that won’t tie. Don’t tie them! Bathing can be done with someone else holding the horse. It doesn’t take much time to bathe and most barns have young riders who are competent enough to hold a horse while it is bathed. In the right instance, a responsible horse person can bath the horse while the trainer or some other reliable soul holds it.
Also, this has probably been said but I’ll say it again while trying to be impartial as I am not involved in the situation. Just because there were no signs of abuse on a horse doesn’t mean it wasn’t chased with a jet of water from the hose. An ordinary jet of water from a garden hose nozzle wouldn’t leave a mark. A shot to the belly, genitals, inner stifle or face can be quite painful and cause a horse to panic. Repeated shots to the face that obscure the horses vision will increase the panic and could result in disaster. All without leaving a mark apart from those created during the struggle. Used on a restrained human with a blanket over their face it’s a method of torture called Water Boarding. Look it up.