Breaking them isn’t supposed to be a literal term!
Nov 13 2010
When I was about 17, someone I knew got a yearling and almost immediately began riding him around, bareback. This is someone who was otherwise a very good horseperson, so I was completely baffled at what, to me, was obviously a REALLY bad idea. I had not yet been around show horses or show barns, only polo, and in polo you never see anything younger than three, period. It seemed obvious to me that riding a horse that was only 16 or 17 months old was going to ruin its legs, but I soon learned that was par for the course in the AQHA/APHA/ApHC show world.
Here’s some video that got sent to me today of yes, a 2009 filly, under saddle and apparently quite well broke already. The owner is Ellie Carroll and the trainer is Amanda Winger of Winger Performance Horses.
Amanda says she is constantly looking to learn and grow as a trainer. Well, Amanda, let’s see how honest you are about that statement! I want you to read this. I didn’t even try to write this up myself because I cannot improve upon this excellent article that details what happens when you ride them young and what ultimately happens to those horses:
The potential consequences of starting a horse under saddle too young
Kudos to you, Weber Training Stable. (Now buy some helmets for those kids, ‘k?)
You see, Ms. Winger, you do not HAVE to ride yearlings because it is your business. You CAN say no. My trainer doesn’t ride yearlings. Lots of people SAY NO, instead of jumping on the client’s checkbook and latching onto it for dear life like my dog when she sees a chicken treat.
When Ellie, the owner, got called out for this on a message board, here was her “I don’t fucking care and I don’t want to learn anything” response. Also note that Ellie really needs to go back to school and figure out the difference between “were” and “where.”
“I have not posted all the of the conditions this mare is being ridden under or even how often (which is quite minimal). And I will not be doing so. I do not feel that anything I posted would make you think we where doing anything other then destroy the horse. So I do not think there is a point to posting it. I am fully confident that my mare will suffer zero harm from her training program and is being handled under the best of care. ”
You’re right, Ellie. Nothing you can say will make me think you’re not causing harm to the horse, because riding an 18 month old horse IS CAUSING HARM TO THE HORSE, 100% OF THE TIME.
I do not accept any world in which hock injections are standard. That is ridiculous. If your young horse needs hock injections, something is wrong. You started them too early or the shoeing sucks or they aren’t really fit and got pushed too hard. Hock injections are for teenage and senior horses who have wear and tear issues, not babies. Yet in these kind of barns, mark my words, everything is getting them. The goal is to try to hold them together just long enough to get a show record on them and who cares what happens after that. There will always be some auction or dealer to dump them at and then some poor kind-hearted sap will knock themselves out trying to fix what you destroyed. It just amazes me that people aren’t bothered by the sheer wastefulness of the whole thing, and that their conscience doesn’t bother them while they are knowingly destroying the legs and back of a young horse, causing it chronic pain, and destroying its future.
There is an estate sale of Thoroughbreds going on today in Banning, California:
Neighsavers is trying to save as many as possible, but of course feel free to head out there if you have space & money for a Thoroughbred! I am not sure if I’m going to get there or not today, but I am going to try.
Broadway is still available at Shiloh Horse Rescue and here is some new video. I absolutely love this mare and one of you need to go get her so that I don’t.
326 comments to “Breaking them isn’t supposed to be a literal term!”
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I have a question that may sound ignorant, but I am only a rider and I don’t know anything about breeding or raising foals…
Why is that yearling so big?!
My trainer has an 18-month AQHA filly (cow horse bred) and she is nowhere near that big. This filly is not going to be ridden until age 3, but they have been working on ground manners and round pen work about twice a week since she was weaned.
Anyway, if I had just seen the video and was not told how old this yearling filly is, I would have guessed 2 or 2 1/2. Do they feed them differently to get them to grow faster? Is that in itself unhealthy for the foal?
Or, is the filly in this video a normal size for a yearling and I’m just ignorant?
Different bloodlines. The cow bred ones are much smaller. Honestly, it’s almost a different breed – there isn’t that much in common between a cow bred QH and a pleasure bred one.
My guy was almost 16 hands as a yearling, that’s what they’re breeding for, because that’s what buyers want.
Also feeding. These babies are often fed VERY well (too well), and grow up in flush weight all the time. While it gives them big bodies and bright shiny coats, if you look closely you will notice that their bone isn’t equal to their size– small boned heads still, little jaw development, and a sort of ‘springy’ look to their joints that babies with lots of cartilage have.
When I purchased a yearling from some very nice AQHA people, she was huge, fat… and also lame. I brought her home, cut her grain down to almost nothing, and pumped the free choice minerals/vitamins to her. It took a few months, and yes, she even got a very tinsy tiny bit ribby, but her legs got the break they needed to straighten out and heal/grow correctly.
Thanks for the explanation! I know very, very little about stock breeds. And my trainer’s Paso Fino yearling is only a little smaller than the AQHA cow horse yearling, so I sort of thought most yearlings were about that big. They very much look like babies!!
But the horse in the video, especially to inexperienced eyes, “looks like” an adult horse, for the most part. Obviously someone who proclaims to be a horse trainer should know better, but I can kind of understand the general public not realizing that, even though he’s pretty big, a yearling should not be ridden.
The video has been taken down, so I cannot comment on it, but if you think that is big just take a look at some TB “foals” at the sales!!!!
At the age of 1 or 2 or even 3 the horse isn’t even a ‘mare’ yet, she’s still a ‘filly’. You don’t ride fillies.
I would love love LOVE to bring half term home and geld him… he is sooo cute! But on the riding babies thing there is a 2yr old ottb filly on sea-tac cl that has been well broke and ready to finish I want to go upgrade, but I only have 1 stall and my fat crazy pony (15hh pony lol) has it pretty well filled up, and I dont really care for tb’s
I could be wrong, but that horse looks off.
Did anyone else notice that she seems to have stretched many of her website photos vertically… or am I simply being catty? I can’t figure out if she wants to make the horses’ legs look longer and their backs shorter.. or if she’s trying to ‘amend’ the images of herself riding….
Speaking of images of ‘herself’ riding… what I see makes ‘riding a yearling’ even worse than it would be if a 98 lb weakling were perched on those young backs.
Be sure to catch the Willie B Elegant ‘english’ video on youtube. Last I heard, a little posting does not turn a horse or its way of going into ‘english’. Another one not to miss is the one of Willie b Elegant schooling lead changes. Do we really need draw reins to do that?
On the other hand, a few days back I watched some video of a lovely young palomino for sale not too far from here.. owner does primarily western pleasure I think, and trains. The poor horse was miserable.. just watching his unhappy mouth and his bracey neck made it quite clear that something was amiss….
When is it more ‘amiss’? When the horse is showing signs it’s in distress… or when it is not obviously miseralble..but not showing signs of contentment, either?
personally i weigh around 88 lbs at 20 yrs old. I’m 4’8″- not all us itty bitty folk are weaklings
Hah, I knew you’d have to speak up about the ‘weakling’ part! Good for you.
My #2 daughter is 4’10″, about 88 pounds, and is a Marine. She can shoulder a pack that weighs almost as much as she does, and walk everybody else into the ground. She’s also meaner than tiger spit and tougher than boots. Go, petites!
I know, Kallisti! I’m not an Amazon, myself… 5′ 3.5″, 128, and my age is not quite half my weight at this point. Let’s call ourselves SMALL BUT MIGHTY!
I need to link a picture of me riding Sir Valiant. He isn’t very big, ooh you know.. 18HH, 2300 lbs. Pretty blue eyed belgian boy. We adopted him for my boyfriend to ride, because i CLEARLY do not need a horse that big. personal pet peeve- my barn has 8 year olds smaller than I am doing jumper courses on HUUGE warmbloods they can barely control. Apparently they are to good to ride ponies. -.-;. I never rode anything BUT ponies. i love them, for all they buck, rear, plunge, roll over….you get the idea. I’m hoping to eventually make a living by putting the fear of jesus into naughty satan ponies. i love a good ‘come to jesus’ talk, when it involves a chubby little pony that doesn’t look big enough to JUMP, let alone jump out of the riding ring.
Another “Tiny Tornado” here, 4ft 8″ and weighing in at 90lbs at the moment (winter weight!!) It fluff, not fat, I tell you!!! All my riding horses have been around the 14.2hh mark- I spoiled myself and bought a Crabbet Arab to make 14.00hh, but she grew over!
Anyway, this whole thing is stupid.
Once, and only once, I did get up and sit on an Anglo filly who was mths old, merely because her new owners were moving away and taking her with them, and I wanted to be sure she would be OK when the time came to ride her, as it turned out she was absolutely fine. They put her in foal at two and so did nothing, riding wise, till the foal was weaned and she was rising four.
There is NO way I should have published a video of my doing this, and there is NO way I should have told anyone but her owners that it had been done.
It is wrong to ride and race TB 2yr olds, and it is wrong to ride QH youngsters too.
You break them in at two and at four they break down. Way to go!!
Count me in the club, please?
Walkonaire, we’re about the same, height/weightwise. I get put on naughty equines of all sizes and shapes, although I wish we had more ponies. All the weight-lifting I do, in the form of manure-shoveling and feed-bag-toting, really pays off when some obnoxious jumper thinks he’s going to land from the fence and throw his head down between his legs to get the reins and run off. Some of them are *really* *surprised* when the usual tricks suddenly don’t work!
my biggest pet peeve as a itty rider is being told “you’re too small to handle that horse- he is going to take off with you!” HECK NO is that horse going to take off with me! My Arab, Ali, is a master at the ‘duck and run sideways’. I used to gallop thoroughbreds for christ’s sake! I know how to handle a horse! I had one hell of a time trying to find an internship (i never did find one i liked), as everyone said ‘sorry, we don’t accept working students shorter than XX’ or ‘sorry, we dont think you could safely handle that horse.’ before they even SEE my horsemanship skills!
Some of them are stretched vertically, but there are others that are stretched horizontally. The majority are normal. I suspect it’s a lack of website skills rather than anything intentional. (I really hope so, anyway. The vertically stretched conformation photo of Willie B Elegant is doing him no favors at all.)
It is bad enough that we western people push them at two for three yr old futurities, but yearling is to much!
I will never understand the desire to have a completely finished three year old. 90% of em are not sound by the time they reach 10!
I have a personal experience with this issue. When i started riding horses, i found a trainer that had a good reputation and started riding, i purchased a two year old he had in training, and kept her in training with the goal of her competing at the Snaffle Bit Futurity. Well early three year old year she was injured, no futurity for her, huge vet bills for me and not knowing whether she would ever be ride able again! Luckily a year worth of rehab later, she was (she stayed out in pasture another year after that). by the time she was 6 we got to ride her again! I was foolish, i new how tiny that mare was, but trusted the “professional” i wish i had pulled her out of training! I still own the mare, she is know 12yrs and the best riding horse! I have shown her in reining & cutting, as well as local rail classes (we never did well in those!)
I have a up and coming two yr old colt, he is currently out in pasture with a hers of geldings, and will stay there until last next year when he goes to training! Just thinking of him being ridden right know shocks me! He is still a baby!
The owner needs to decide what she wants, does she want to be able to ride her horse for a little while or a lifetime? There are huge risks for every thing we do, everytime we put em in a trailer, or ride without legs wraps, or ask em to slide. This is one risk that shouldnt be taken!
“How dare people cite scientific studies & book-learnin’ that counteract what I wanna do with my horse?!” Uuugghh. Makes me want to smack her in the head with a hopefully-very-heavy Deb Bennet book.
Off topic, but you should see this — http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-november-11-2010/big-red-dogs
It”s about Missouri’s anti-puppy-mill law (that only passed with 52% of the vote — what is wrong with that state?!) and actually shows a woman complaining about how being forced to pay for “unnecessary things like adequate food, water & shelter” is making America a Communist country.
(Apparently, “Communism” is the word of the day now? Whenever someone doesn’t like something, they say it’s Communism. I don’t think any of these people have any idea what is ACTUALLY is. I spent a semester in the Czech Republic, a post-Communist country, and I absolutely do not throw that word around with such a cavalier attitude, because I have seen the effects of the real thing.)
It’s just amazing, isn’t it? Hey, I’m very much of an economic conservative and I usually vote Republican, but there are things government MUST be involved in or abuse occurs, and any industry involving animals is one of those things. (Parenting is another. Thank GOD for CPS.)
Oh lord, you should have heard the rhetoric flying around down here. Apparently, I shouldn’t have voted for it, because:
- The humane society would come take my horse for not having her in an airconditioned barn in the summer.
- The humane society stole poor, poor Ellen Priest’s horses and now wants her to pay for 18 years of board!
- Breeders would be forced to throw unweaned puppies out into the snow, where they would DIE!
- Hawks would carry off small dogs.
- Wire floored cages are humane! Totally and completely humane!
- It would somehow weaken the current laws against animal cruelty.
- The same standards would apply to cows, pigs, sheep, goats, etc, thus ruining farming in the state! We’re all going to starve since this passed!!!!!!!11111!
- The standards of housing for dogs would be higher than the standards of housing for children.
- Heating and cooling the kennels in extreme weather will destroy the environment!
- It was anti-feminist and anti-child because, wait for it, the wife couldn’t raise money by keeping a kennel while her husband worked, and thus would be forced to leave her children home alone while she got a real job.
- It’s the stuck up communist-hippie-socialist-vegan-liberals in St. Louis and Kansas City forcing their “city ways” on good honest country folk!
And so on. A giant WTF Missouri. At least it passed.
” – Hawks would carry off small dogs.”
But, but, but they’ve been doing that for years! Is the Hawk Cabal finally making it’s move to larger breeds?
Also, good lucking dealing with those idiots. People who know EVERYTHING about farm life that don’t know the simple shit you pick up just by living rurally drive me up walls.
The real reason you shouldn’t have voted for it is it’s a waste of money. The law ALREADY EXISTS, except requires better care than Prop B, better facilities, and applies to more businesses. The problem is not with laws not existing to stop mills from abusing animals or caring for them improperly – it’s with there not being enough funding to support the inspection off all the facilities and subsequent enforcement of those laws.
A quick summary of what I’m talking about:
http://www.btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2010/10/some-final-thoughts-on-missouris-prop-b.html
A comparison of Prop B with the Animal Care Facilities Act:
http://www.mvma.us/movmaweb.nsf/WebFiles/PropB_vs_ACFA/$File/Prop%20B%20vs%20%20ACFA.docx
Prop B is passed, for now. Rumour has it that the legislature is going to try and overturn it however. It passed by such a slim margin because they put the scare tactics into farmers and other livestock breeders that Prop B was a stepping stone towards outlawing all sorts of breeding. The Missouri farmers boards, the AQHA (naturally!), the AKC, (again, naturally since they’re collecting fees from those puppy millers who DO register their pups!) many vets and several other groups were all against it. So of course, instead of READING it and making up their own minds, many people just blindly believed what others were telling them about it.
Welcome to Missouri. Puppy Mill and Meth production capital of the world
The reason they’re trying to overturn it is because there are now currently two laws addressing the same issue with differing standards. Prop B was scare tactics on the part of HSUS and other supporting bodies, too – considering a better law already exists to address animal care, they drummed up support by tossing around the word “puppy mill” and then wasted money getting a duplicate law passed. Imagine if they’d used that money to actually fund inspections!
This law won’t change anything because, again, passing laws is easy. Enforcing them is hard.
A quick summary of what I’m talking about:
http://www.btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2010/10/some-final-thoughts-on-missouris-prop-b.html
A comparison of Prop B with the Animal Care Facilities Act:
http://www.mvma.us/movmaweb.nsf/WebFiles/PropB_vs_ACFA/$File/Prop%20B%20vs%20%20ACFA.docx
It’s the Jon Stewart show. I’m 99.9% certain the lady talking about “unnecessary things like adequate food, water & shelter” is part of Stewart’s staff and a comedian herself. Did you catch the reference to ‘Obamacare’? It’s a scripted parody of hyperreactions to health care reform, not real reactions to anti-puppy mill laws. (That said, it still does draw attention to the puppy mill issue. Cudos to the SPCA lady and Cesar for weighing in on that!)
Holy shit, I need to stop underestimating human stupidity. The “amounts of care that are not needed, like adequate food, adequate water, adequate space” woman is Anita Andrews of Alliance for Truth, and she’s serious. Media coverage here.
I think my mind just exploded. She couldn’t have made herself look more ridiculous if she’d been handed a script. I get it if you think Prop B is an unnecessary repetition on the cruelty laws that are already on the books, but there’s ways to oppose that without looking crazy. Sorry, I’m going to go cry for the human race now…
Okay, on a third and fourth viewing, I wonder how heavily edited that was. There’s a cut between when she says “exorbitant amounts of care that are not needed” and “such as adequate food, adequate water, adequate space.” Nothing she says within a single shot would be entirely ridiculous in the right context. (Even the bit about it being a step towards a socialist society. She’s right, it is a step to the political left. I think she’s wrong to imply that it’s a slippery slope and we’re all going to end up singing communist hymns, though.) I’ll have to watch and see if she accuses the Daily Show of that.
No, in fact Stewart makes fun of Fox for that kind of editing all of the time. So, now that you see it’s a real person and not an actor, you are saying she was edited to look uncaring?
I don’t believe it. In fact, isn’t she uncaring just in that she was not supportive of that bill?
What’s next, she’s mentally ill and that is the excuse for her idiotic standpoint? I doubt they edited so heavily they could change someone’s viewpoint.
” So, now that you see it’s a real person and not an actor, you are saying she was edited to look uncaring?”
I’m saying I’d rather believe that they edited statements together to make her look crazier than she already is than believe that there are people who would really describe ‘adequate food, water, and shelter’ as ‘unnecessary’. I can kind of wrap my head around her point of view and her arguments, I can’t wrap my head around using that particular phrase to describe it. Human stupidity amazes me once again.
Just to clarify, I am a big fan of the Daily Show and seriously doubt they’d edit her statement like that. (Also, the Rally to Restore Sanity and/or Fear was the best thing that’s happened to politics in years.) But it’s even harder for me to believe that someone would describe ‘adequate’ care as ‘unnecessary’ and be serious about it. Who appointed her spokesperson and did they realize it was physically possible to get one’s foot that deep into their mouth? I certainly didn’t.
FlyByNight, I really don’t think you can blame her idiotic statements on editing. If you notice, even though the camera goes back and forth from Anita to Interviewer, the dialogue continues uninterrupted. I suspect there are two cameras, panning back and forth — and they pan back to Interviewer so she can make her “this lady is crazy” face. But they don’t cut up Anita’s dialougue. If you notice, they do the same thing when speaking to the ASPCA lady.
As for your comment about the political left being “socialists”…”sigh” please hop off the bandwagon. I’m a slightly left-leaning centrist and I am really getting sick and tired of this nonsense.
Hang on a second, I agree with you about the politics and was trying to say the same thing.
I assume you’re talking about this part of my earlier post:
“Nothing she says within a single shot would be entirely ridiculous in the right context. (Even the bit about it being a step towards a socialist society. She’s right, it is a step to the political left. I think she’s wrong to imply that it’s a slippery slope and we’re all going to end up singing communist hymns, though.)”
I was saying she’s correct in the very technical sense that this law is politically left leaning, and if you look FAR along the spectrum to the left, socialists show up somewhere in there. So a step to the left gets you a teensy bit closer to socialism and teensy bit away from libertarianism. However she’s using the slippery slope argument and trying to argue that if we take any steps at all in that direction, whoops, surprise, we’re going to end up all the way over in the communist category! Which is not only a logical fallacy, it’s dumb. (Also, I really don’t get why people are so scared of ‘socialism’ and throw it around as a scare term. Let’s try actually understanding the different political schools of thought first, and give them some sane consideration before chucking it out the window entirely.)
As for the editing – agreed, I really don’t think it’s edited. (I’d be very disappointed with the Daily Show if it was.) It’s just breaking my brain that anyone could actually say that. This is hyperbole, not an actual accusation or attempt at defending her.
The scary part of that video is that Anita Andrews is *not* an actress working for The Daily Show or anyone else. Those were her actual non-scripted thoughts about adequate water, food and shelter being a step toward communism and socialism. It turns out you can’t actually make that stuff up.
Google “Anita Andrews Alliance for Truth” for some wild quotes. Joe the Plumber supported them in their efforts to block Prop B.
Nope, sorry, that is not a member of The Daily Show.
Even though it’s on Comedy Central, they do in fact do real interviews. Unfortunately, there really ARE people who are that stupid (as Geekagirl pointed out).
And, yes, I do think that TDS is left-leaning, BUT I can assure you that they make fun of absolutely everyone and point out the foolishness of both parties. Heck, when Howard Dean came on once, the first thing out of Jon Stewart’s mouth was, “Are you f@cking crazy?”
I just Googled “Anita Andrews Alliance for Truth” — http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1R2GGLL_en&q=anita+andrews+alliance+for+truth&aq=0&aqi=g1&aql=t&oq=anita+andrews+allian&gs_rfai=
So, nope, she most definitely is not connected with The Daily Show.
Well, leave it to the Tea-partiers to oppose that bill. Sure, its OK to cram puppies in cages with plenty of feces without food or water, but when it comes to pro-choice vs. pro-life–Oh no, we have to think of the rights of the unborn kid at all costs because it’s “God’s law”, even if the mother is totally ill-prepared to bring the infant into the world or the infant would be ill-equipped to survive without a complete drain on financial or health-care resources, but once born, you’re on your own, mom & kid-no gov’t assistance for you! I really don’t understand that movement!
Is that the same Ellie Carroll that runs the slaughter-intensive horse breeding game hajinc.com?
Yeah, last I heard she had several horses in training with her, despite the fact that she lives in the midwest now.
Completely off topic, but I went to hajinc.com to check it out and decided to play their colour guessing game on the front page. I’m laughing at all of the “grey” somethings that aren’t in the least bit grey. And who’s ever heard of a bay dun varnish blanket appaloosa? This game is also teaching that the focus of your breeding program should be flashy colours. Great.
I bred 3 Swedish WB (all colts, 2 were class 1 at inspection, 1 was a class 2) and brought up 3 other weanling WB. The earliest I sent one out to be started was 6 weeks shy of it’s 3rd birthday. No lunging in short circles, no jumping until 4, lots of turn out and grass hay. I know the QH people generally start at 2. I was always told the warmbloods need more time to grow. Seems terribly short-sighted to push them as yearlings. I figure I know 15% of what’s to know about horses and am always willing to listen and learn. I am always amazed at how many people dig their heels in and refuse to take in any knowledge, insisting they know it all. I suspect it’s a personal problem. LOL
You have that right! Of course, those who have the personal problem, don’t believe they have one.
Not to jump off the topic, but I saw that you bred SWBs and I’d just like to comment that I simply adore the breed (and kudos for the good inspection results!). I think they’re great horses but I feel like you don’t see as many Swedish breeders as you do of other warmblood breeds, so… that makes me a little happy, I suppose! I just wanted to jump in and greet another Swedish person.
I watched the video, and a few minutes in, I was thinking “I think I’ve seen this before”…but I didn’t remember where until I looked at the title “Just to See You Smile”. I’m a member of a forum that (I think) is run by the owner of this mare. I had no idea how old the mare was when watching the video (the first time), and so thought nothing of it beyond “cute horse, she’s just the right size for me” (I like small horses. One I ride is 13.3, another is 14.2, and another is 14.3. Small compared to those big TBs and warmbloods.).
I am 100% against starting anything younger than 3, beyond MAYBE saddling them and sitting on them just before they turn 3 (like, 3-4 months). If that. I know of someone who did that with her horse (with her vet’s approval), and didn’t actually start “breaking” the horse until 3 and a half, and didn’t even look at a jump (even a TINY) crossrail until 4 and a half.
However, on the forum, the owner states that this is the filly’s second ride. The trainer even comes in and says she doesn’t normally start young horses. The thread for reference: http://www.kinetocoredesign.com/showthread.php?t=36819. Just thought I’d add that bit of information.
Yeah but everybody says it was a one time thing and they don’t normally do it when they get caught. Watch the video. If you’ve ever started a horse, you’ll find it tough to believe the filly is that consistent on ride #2. I find it VERY implausible.
Actually, I was going to say the exact opposite. I thought the filly was too inconsistent to even have a rider on her back. She clearly didn’t understand what walking off from legs was– she also had a few moments of ‘head up ears slanted OMG whatdoyouwant?” in which I saw a potential wreck. Yes, she trotted fairly steadily, but with a quiet rider with quiet hands. What happens if the rider loses balance, or swings a leg just wrong?
Before I climb on a baby’s back, that baby is line driven until it’s sure of voice and line signals, walk trot and canter. I never climb on a baby’s back without a spotter, someone who can calm the baby while I literally bounce, wave arms, flap legs, and generally act like an idiot. It’s done carefully, so it’s a rewarding experience, but it teaches the single MOST important lesson a baby needs to learn– when the rider goes off balance, or the legs slip or the arm goes wide, IT IS OKAY.
The filly in the video hadn’t had that yet. As for not riding her for long…. the camera person’s arm was getting tired. How do you think the baby felt?
You make some good points. I admit that I had a spotter the first few rides with my VLC. It just makes sense to me to smoothly transition the horse from something they are used to (walking quietly next to a person) to something that’s a little odd (walking quietly next to a person with another person on their back).
I’m a little different school of thought than you. I sit as quiet as I can. They can learn to deal with inconsistency from their rider later on in their training. I just want them to have a really super good experience those first few weeks…no bouncing, no kicking, no sudden motions, no drama. Walk, jog, ho, pet, pet, pet, wow you’re such a good horse!
Oh, in that we are the same. I am a big fan of ‘Good job’ and lots of praise those first few rides. It’s just that I know from experience the following scenario is preventable:
Baby is walking quietly, rider is quiet. Baby sees something… oh, like a Snuffaluffagus… and jumps a bit. Rider bounces some with the jump, one arm goes a little wide. Baby says, “Mom jumped too! Ah!” and jumps again. This time, Rider’s right leg swings out to compensate for balance, and once again bounces. Baby goes, “Oh god, I’m under attack!” and from there, you can imagine the ensuing wreck.
All avoidable if the baby is taught right from the start that sometimes those arms and legs are gonna bounce and move, and that’s okay, normal, and safe. It doesn’t have to look like an old west sacking out, but it certainly is worth the fifteen minutes it takes to teach a colt that riders move suddenly sometimes, and it’s okay.
Yeah, that’s my trainer too.. I got to help her back a few colts last spring and the first few rides are litterally like 10 min of being led around with a person on your back until the horse is calm, and then rewarding like crazy.
Amazing. You go onto my forum and start a fight. People tell you, you are rude and just looking to cause a fight. Many member say it should be locked down, and was nothing but a flame war. What do you do when no one will rise to your bait? You come on here and start even more trouble. After you spent 24 hours coming over back logs of my forum trying to dig up any dirt you could possibly find. It is really rather shocking that someone could need such a huge stage for drama. Just because someone on the internet does not agree with you does not mean it is ok to make up slander about them.
The flat out truth is that you could not get a rise out of my wonderful community of members. You even went so far as to imply everyone of them was stupid, and you put cuss words in my moth and insist I am refusing to learn anything, the the best part is you even had to pick at insulting my spelling. Congratulations, was that hard?
You also have implied my horse is shod, she is not and that she has had injections, she never has. You also can not fathom that this mare is good enough that she can be this quite and consistent on her second ride. Maybe you have never had one this mellow and well bred before. But that was indeed her second ride ever. And when you have a horse that is very sane minded and well bred they can be consistent and easy from day one. (I am sure many members here have had good ones that just pack along).
Unfortunately your post has no scientific basis. There is strong scientific evidence both for humans and for animals (horses included) that caring a load at prepubescence greatly increases bone mass and skeletal health for the rest of the individuals life. This has been known for decades.
Here are just a few of the scientific articles on the subject.
http://www.drlenkravitz.com/Articles/exbonehealth.html
http://www.springerlink.com/content/0454u40qu617w04q/
There are many more and they are easy to find. If any one has any questions about my horse they are more then welcome to ask me directly. I would advice anyone though to take something said by some one who has greatly stretched the truth and spent the past 24 hours digging up anything they could to get “revenge” on me for not agreeing with her with a very large grain of salt.
Um, honey, I have NEVER been to your forum. Take off the tinfoil hat.
Now, your OTHER forum members…they are the ones who aren’t too thrilled with you…’cause I got this a COUPLE of times…not once. Guess what, most people on your forum think you’re wrong. And now you know most people on this blog think you are wrong. So maybe you ought to consider that RIDING A YEARLING MIGHT BE WRONG!
FHOTD,
Please see the email I sent to your address. I apologies for mixing you up with the original troll who started this. I would have removed this post since I was clearly confused about the poster but I had no option to do so.
We have many people on my forum who disagree with you. I do not know why you are saying most people on my forum disagree since that is not the case at all. If you have never been to my forum then you would not know that. Just shows that the troll you gave you this information really has been telling you very misleading and false things. We have strong scientific research with 50 years and hundreds of studies behind it that load bearing is vital for skeletal development. I included in my email many links to studies and articles that show this. I am happy to post links to these scientific journal articles.
Yes riding a horse very hard will ruin them, but at no point as this filly ever been ridden hard. What it comes down to is that you where fed misleading information about me, and pointed like an attack dog by a person who just wanted revenge. I see no reason why good people should have their names dragged through the mud over some petty persons personal grudge.
You have said things about myself, my horse, and my trainer in this post that are completely untrue. I do not know if you think your statements are true because you where told they where or what but I am happy to give the real story to anyone who wants to bother to ask.
Good Lord lady, where do I start?
1) The links you provided were for PEOPLE, not HORSES. Since you apparently have “strong scientific research with 50 years and hundreds of studies behind it”, could you please provide one or two links to scientific support for your position on the effect of weight on a young, growing horse, and not a fully grown adult human?
2) Does this mean that it would be good for me to put a 50lb backpack on my 5 year old and run him around the yard?
“We have strong scientific research with 50 years and hundreds of studies behind it that load bearing is vital for skeletal development.”
Carrying their own weight is good for skeletal development. Not a rider’s weight. If packing a rider around is so critical for a young horse’s development, how is it that mustangs are the soundest horses around? And quarter horses that are ridden in futurities are often the least sound?
“You have said things about myself, my horse, and my trainer in this post that are completely untrue.”
Such as?
“I am happy to give the real story to anyone who wants to bother to ask.”
Okay, I’m asking. What’s going on with this very young horse that makes riding her okay?
Ok, ok. So you are saying that riding a yearling will produce stronger frame and joints?? Well, perhaps you should know that, that would be in the same fashion as how pin firing creates more bone density. By stressing the bone/ joint it will create a calcification hence more bone which will eventually develop into arthritis. BUT! to do that to a young under developed horse would be morally wrong and sadistic for it’s future. WHY would any person in their right mind wish to expand the possibility of damaging a perfectly sound animal just because they want to glorify the horse’s temperament but mostly to boast their own ego that they ride horses, or breed horses or whateverthefuck that are capable of being trained why too young. If that youngster is that wonderful to accept a rider at that age, then why not wait another year or two and have a wonderful horse that will service you just as great, if not better WITHOUT THAT RISK OF FUTURE INJURY. Without the risk of causing that horse future pain from arthritis, joint issues, and any of the host of other problems that COULD arise just by riding before they are mature enough to handle stress. It’s comparable to the risk of giving your horse grain that just might have a little mildew in the container. Don’t see any on the grain itself, just on the container. Should you throw the batch out and waste your money??? or just feed it and hope for the best. After all, it won’t hurt your tummy if something does happen. The operative word here is RISK at the expense of someone/ thing other than our self.
And yea, once we on here discover people doing irresponsible maneuvers we will tend to pick on anything else noticeable like your grammar, your riding style, maybe your weight but only because you are riding babies (you know you are no 90 lb gymnast), etc…
On a lighter note: You have nice horses, a nice facility (if it’s yours or your parents) and a lot of opportunity to do great things in the equestrian world. But being open to criticism that could and will better you and what you strive for is one of the most important values a horse person could hold. How that criticism is directed is one thing. What you as a horse person do with it is what really counts.
Um, zksredpony, those two studies that you linked to were about PEOPLE, not horses. The second study had to do with the effect of weight-training on bone density in MEN ages 19-40. You can not take a study from one species and just decide that it corresponds to another species!!
And those studies did not have the people down on all fours with a moving being (that is more than 20% of the person’s own weight!) on his or her back!
You need to read some articles by Dr. Deb Bennett (who has a Ph.D in equine anatomy, biomechanics, etc.), like TIMING AND RATE OF SKELETAL MATURATION IN HORSES, whih you can find here — http://www.womenandhorses.com/newsletter-2006january.html
Yes, a horse is sexually mature at two, but it is not physically mature until SIX! Dr. Bennett reccommends waiting until the horse is four to start light riding — definitely NOT one or two!! You are setting that poor horse up for a very painful and crippled future. Please take the high road, swallow your pride, and absorb the knowledge that is being shown to you.
To reply to all three of your here is the email I sent to Cathy.
Cathy,
You have implied on your post that we have injected and shod this mare. You have also quoted me as saying things I have not said. You also have said I forced my trainer to ride this horse. That is also completely untrue.
I would indeed like to read the studies of Dr. Bennett. Is this the site?
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
She does state in this article “What is very unlikely is that you will damage the growth plate in the legs. At worst there may be some crushing of the cartilage, but the number of cases of deformed limbs due to early use is tiny.†So she clearly agrees that legs are not at risk from riding young. Her concern is from spinal deformities. This horse is ridden for very short periods. No more than half an hour at a time if that. And it was indeed only her second time being backed in that video. Even Dr. Bennet agrees that the legs are not at risk. Absolutely a horse being ridden for several hours a day or without rest in between is at great risk for back issues. I completely agree with this. I also agree that shoeing to young will cause hoof problems, and that forcing a horse to collect hard and carry in frame at a young age is very stressful on them. But this mare is very little work.
I do not feel that the Equine Vet Journal is junk science as you have said. It is a peer reviewed and very well respected periodical. As is the new England Journal of Medicine, where several articles about how load bearing in children prevents osteoporosis and joint problems for life. The method of bone growth is well understood, a bone must be subjected to stress in order to gain any density and strength. That is why child gymnasts have so much stronger legs and spines then other children, and have been known to be healthier for life.
I completely agree with you the hard riding of any sort on a young horse will cause harm. We know it does and much evidence has been seen in that regard. This mare though is caring around 20% of her weight. That is the same as a 100 pound child caring a 20 pound pack for a half hour twice a week. We are very careful to watch this mare for soreness and she is never ridden without several rest days in between.
Once again I would like to point out that this horse is happy and healthy and scientific research shows that caring weight is vital for good bone growth. I do not believe I am flat out wrong at all. There are many horses out there that are treated very harshly and do deserve to be seen on your site, but with much research behind me including the paper of Dr. Bennet saying that leg issues are not a problem and that only prolonged wait carrying will cause back issues, I do not see the cause for abuse at all here.
Ellie
For those who asked here are more links
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18093893
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18093894
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18959528
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20811144
http://www.vetpro.co.nz/Vet+Articles/Improving+Bone+Density.html
This is not made up wacko science. It is completely real and has been shown again and again in many a scientific study. Even Dr. Bennet who Cathy and many of you have tried to site agree that riding early does not harm the legs. Thank you to those who decided to ask about the circumstances. As it stands the legs are at zero to very minimal risk as stated by Dr. Bennet, and spine is only being introduced to bearing weight over very slow and short periods. I am sure there will be people who will refuse to believe that such a thing is possible. But there you have the evidence. And I know there are many many more articles out there too.
You are picking and choosing the parts of Dr. Bennett’s teachings you care to believe while discarding the rest. Let me give you some other quotes:
“Ranger is not mature, as I said, as a 2 1/2 year old. This is NOT because Ranger is a “slow-maturing” individual or because he comes from a “slow maturing” breed. There is no such thing. Let me repeat that: no horse on earth, of any breed, at any time, is or has ever been mature before the age of six (plus or minus six months). This information comes, I know, as a shock to many people who think starting their colt or filly under saddle at age two is what they ought to be doing.”
(And that’s TWO. That’s not EIGHTEEN FREAKING MONTHS.)
“Owners and trainers need to realize there’s a definite, easy -to- remember schedule of fusion – and then make their decision as to when to ride the horse based on that rather than on the external appearance of the horse. For there are some breeds of horse – the Quarter Horse is the premier among these – which have been bred in such a manner as to LOOK mature long before they actually ARE mature. This puts these horses in jeopardy from people who are either ignorant of the closure schedule, or more interested in their own schedule (for futurities or other competitions) than they are in the welfare of the animal. ”
(Sound familiar? It should!)
Here’s all the things that don’t fuse until your filly’s age or later:
“And 1.5 yrs. 5. Small bones of knee – top & bottom on each, between 1.5 and 2.5 yrs. 6. Bottom of radius-ulna – between 2 and 2.5 yrs. 7. Weight-bearing portion of glenoid notch at top of radius – between 2.5 and 3 yrs. 8. Humerus – top & bottom, between 3 and 3.5 yrs. 9. Scapula – glenoid or bottom (weight-bearing) portion – between 3.5 and 4 yrs. 10. Hindlimb – lower portions same as forelimb 11. Hock – this joint is “late” for as low down as it is; growth plates on the tibial & fibular tarsals don’t fuse until the animal is four (so the hocks are a known “weak point” – even the 18th-century literature warns against driving young horses in plow or other deep or sticky footing, or jumping them up into a heavy load, for danger of spraining their hocks) 12. Tibia – top & bottom, between 2.5 and 3 yrs. 13. Femur – bottom, between 3 and 3.5 yrs.; neck, between 3.5 and 4 yrs.; major and 3rd trochanters, between 3 and 3.5 yrs. 14. Pelvis – growth plates on the points of hip, peak of croup (tubera sacrale), and points of buttock (tuber ischii), between 3 and 4 yrs. …and what do you think is last? The vertebral column, of course.”
These are not opinions or guesses. These are facts, based upon research looking at the skeletons of horses this age. Tell you what, you want to sue me? Come back and sue me when that filly’s five years old and has clean x-rays. Maybe then you can make an argument that you haven’t damaged her. I’d say the odds are on me winning that one.
As to the rest of it, I’m a bit lost. When did I say anything about shoeing or the lack thereof with regard to your filly? You do not seem to be able to read for comprehension as to when I am talking about your filly and when I am talking about abuses in the stock breed show industry in general, abuses that are very common.
Also, I think you should head down to a livestock scale and get some real numbers, because while your filly is a good size for her age, I absolutely do not believe your trainer and her tack are only 20% of her weight and no more. If you think that’s really true, you should have it verified and you can use it as evidence in your future frivolous lawsuit filing. I think you will get a wake-up call about the facts if you actually do that.
“She does state in this article “What is very unlikely is that you will damage the growth plate in the legs.”
No, but I would be worried about the growth plates in the spinal column. Why do you think so many horses have back problems?
There aren’t growth plates in the vertebrae, only in the “long bones” like femurs. There are secondary sites of ossification though, which I agree could potentially be compromised by packing around a rider at such a young age.
Wrong. Please read this:
http://www.fourcornersequinerescue.org/perusalcorral/articles.html
Quoted from article:
1. Just about everybody has heard of the horse’s “growth plates,” and commonly when I ask ‘em, people tell me that the “growth plates” are somewhere around, or in, the horse’s knees (actually they’re located at the bottom of the radius-ulna bone just above the knee). This is what gives rise to the saying that, before riding the horse, it’s best to wait “until his knees close” (i.e., until the growth plates fuse to the bone shaft and cease to be separated from it by a layer of slippery, crushable cartilage). What people often don’t realize is that there is a “growth plate” on either end of EVERY bone behind the skull, and in the case of some bones (like the pelvis, which has many “corners”) there are multiple growth plates. So do you then have to wait until ALL these growth plates fuse? No. But the longer you wait, the safer you’ll be.
The process of fusion goes from the bottom up. In other words, the lower down toward the hoofs you look, the earlier the growth plates will have fused; and the higher up toward the animal’s back you look, the later. The growth plate at the top of the coffin bone (the most distal bone of the limb) is fused at birth. What this means is that the coffin bones get no TALLER after birth (they get much larger around, though, by another mechanism). That’s the first one. In order after that:
Short pastern – top & bottom between birth and 6 mos.
Long pastern – top & bottom between 6 mos. And 1 yr.
Cannon bone – top & bottom between 8 mos. And 1.5 yrs.
Small bones of knee – top & bottom on each, between 1.5 and 2.5 yrs.
Bottom of radius-ulna – between 2 and 2.5 yrs.
Weight-bearing portion of glenoid notch at top of radius – between 2.5 and 3 yrs.
Humerus – top & bottom, between 3 and 3.5 yrs.
Scapula – glenoid or bottom (weight-bearing) portion – between 3.5 and 4 yrs.
Hindlimb – lower portions same as forelimb
Hock – this joint is “late” for as low down as it is; growth plates on the tibial & fibular tarsals don’t fuse until the animal is four (so the hocks are a known “weak point” – even the 18th-century literature warns against driving young horses in plow or other deep or sticky footing, or jumping them up into a heavy load, for danger of spraining their hocks)
Tibia – top & bottom, between 2.5 and 3 yrs.
Femur – bottom, between 3 and 3.5 yrs.; neck, between 3.5 and 4 yrs.; major and 3rd trochanters, between 3 and 3.5 yrs.
Pelvis – growth plates on the points of hip, peak of croup (tubera sacrale), and points of buttock (tuber ischii), between 3 and 4 yrs.
…and what do you think is last? The vertebral column, of course. A normal horse has 32 vertebrae between the back of the skull and the root of the dock, and there are several growth plates on each one, the most important of which is the one capping the centrum.
I disagree with this author. To be truly termed a “growth plate”, or an epiphyseal plate, it has to grow according to a specific pattern of endochondral formation. Oddly shaped bones (vertebrae, scapula, pelvis, etc) do not grow this way. They are laid down by a hyaline cartilage model embryonically similarly to long bones, but the way they ultimately ossify is not the same way that the long bones ossify.
Um, clearly this person does not have the greatest reading comprehension. Otherwise, she would have read the following statement — “Many people today…do not realize how hard you can actually work a MATURE horse…But before you can do that without significantly damaging the animal, you have to wait for him to mature, which means waiting until he is four to six years old before asking him to carry you on his back” and realized that she is wrong. Let me break that down for you — it does NOT mean that “lightly riding a 1.5 year old horse is fine,” as you seem to interpret it. It means that, if you want your horse to be a non-cripple later in life, you do NOT start riding him until he is four years old.
From your first link: “CONCLUSIONS: Subjecting TB foals to conditioning exercise early in life DOES NOT HAVE ADVERSE EFFECTS ON RACING CAREERS AT AGES 2 AND 3 YEARS, and does not influence the workload needed to reach a fitness level that is sufficient for racing.” (Clearly, this study did ZERO research into the possible skeletal injuries of riding young horses; the conclusions are based solely on the RACING CAREERS of 2 & 3 yrs).
Second link: “Conditioning increased the likelihood for joint effusion in the antebrachiocarpal joint.” Joint effusion = abnormal build-up of fluid, a symtom of arthritis. In a 2 year old? Yeah, awesome.
I would like to point out that these studies are simply studying how conditioning affects the performance of racehorses, etc. They are not studying the EFFECTS that racing has on the horse’s whole body, and the impacts that it has on horses later in life.
Oh, and from the last link: “At 6 months of age bone mineralisation is 68% complete, by 12 months it has increased to 76%. Maximum BMC is not reached until a horse is 6 years old.”
And you are making some seriously deluded conclusions from Deb Bennet’s article. You said, “Even Dr. Bennet who Cathy and many of you have tried to site agree that riding early does not harm the legs. Thank you to those who decided to ask about the circumstances. As it stands the legs are at zero to very minimal risk as stated by Dr. Bennet, and spine is only being introduced to bearing weight over very slow and short periods.”
Um, NO!! Again, you really need to work on your reading comprehension. Unfortunately, it seems that you are stubbornly clinging to your own deranged conclusions. I just feel bad for the poor horses.
“where several articles about how load bearing in children prevents osteoporosis and joint problems for life. The method of bone growth is well understood, a bone must be subjected to stress in order to gain any density and strength. That is why child gymnasts have so much stronger legs and spines then other children, and have been known to be healthier for life.”
I don’t know where you get the idea that child gymnasts are so much healthier. Most of them deal with pain on a daily basis for the rest of their lives. And those are the ones who aren’t too crippled to continue gymnastics in their youth. The amount of stress needed to develop bone density involves nothing more than movement. Even a lot of walking will create more bone density. Yes, adding weight may create more bone, but in most horses and humans, unless the conformation is 100% correct you run the risk of damage.
Gymnasts have stronger legs and spines? Are you joking me right now? Sure, if you don’t count those pesky pars interarticularis fractures and the isthmic spondylolisthesis that most of them have. Not to mention the hypermobility in all of their joints, which is a great big mess later down the road.
Bone density vs. arthrokinematics is the issue here. You need weight bearing to establish bone density, but there is an elongated timeline that this needs to occur during to establish proper arthrokinematics. You can have all the bone density in the world, but if your joint doesn’t move correctly, you aren’t going to have a sound horse down the road. Plus, there is an upper limit to bone density. The inorganic component of bone that makes it hard is only ever going to comprise a certain percent. A normal pattern of weight bearing results in a perfectly healthy amount of bone density, this is not an “earlier the better” situation.
Ugh.
If you’re referring to me as the “troll”, I didn’t think I was. All I did was post a link to something that OTHERS had posted. Notice I have nothing posted in that thread. If anyone really wanted to find it, I’m sure google would have supplied it. It’s the internet. You can find nearly anything if you’re willing to look hard enough. I also figured someone else would probably post it too, or at least reference it. As Fugly herself said, this wasn’t the only time she got it.
Probably. That makes sense, at least. I was merely pointing it out. Also, I’ve never started a horse, so I have no clue. The youngest one I’ve ridden was BARELY 3 at the time (I didn’t know this until later, and she didn’t look/act that young) and had been in training since age 2 (again, didn’t figure this out until much later). She was fine, “calm” (she’s not a calm personality), and gave me no reason to believe she was as young as the was. (Surprisingly, she’s still completely sound at age 7 today. She was in egg-bar shoes for a while, but that had nothing to do with her age/training and everything to do with her conformationally low heels combined with a crappy trim job by a bad farrier. She’s in normal shoes now.)
So that answers my question. It is the same Ellie Carroll.
It’s time for the breed organizations to step-up and not have classes/allow horses under a certain age to participate under saddle. This goes for the JC as well…
No horse should be started before 3 and have waited till 4 with mine. Yeah, I know long gone are the youngster futurities.
Know wonder I am pro slaughter, these poor broken down souls have to go somewhere as there are not enough rescues/homes for pasture pets/etc. to absorb them all.
I agree completely about the breed orgs and the JC…just stop having 2 year old classes and 2 year old races, guess what, that’d solve a LOT of the problem.
First thing I thought then I saw that video was that girl needs to get her big arse off that filly! She appears waaaaay to big for that horse. I’m no lightweight myself, but I know the appropriate size and age of horse I should be riding.
I’m glad you guys are saying it. I knew if I said it I’d be accused of being mean to everybody who isn’t a size 2, but that’s not the point at all. The point is to be MOUNTED APPROPRIATELY FOR YOUR SIZE.
Thanks for pointing this out. I’m a tall, skinny person myself, but I know several, well… heavier than average riders. They’re all good, though, and what I love is the fact that they know they can’t just hop on any horse. One of them has a beautiful draft/TB cross. He’s not particularly tall, but they’re a good match because he’s so heavily built and STRONG. He can handle the weight of a heavier rider because he’s got big bones, too! Another leases Cleveland Bay, and while they aren’t always considered proper drafts, they’re known for being heavy and strong, with great backs and great feet.
I have nothing against heavier riders. I’m against them hopping on ponies. That, and I love draft horses and draft crosses (they’re wonderful, both physically and personality-wise!) and I think a lot of people don’t give them credit as riding horses. Some of the most athletic riding horses I know have a degree of draft blood, and since I’ve already mentioned Cleveland Bay’s I’ll add that they make absolutely fantastic jumpers… and all the ones I’ve known, although that’s only two, personally, never ever need shoes. Major money saver!
OK so… When I was new to horses, before I read any of the books that I have, before I started lessons, and long before I discovered this blog I hopped up on the back of a yearling…. Shamefull, I know but at that time I honestly didn’t know better and I wasn’t with anyone that did. Our little gelding was so well behaved, seemed so grown up and we were so eager and excited about having him that we couldn’t wait to “train” him. I was the smallest person around (about 130 pounds) so I got a leg up and sat on him bareback. He walked three steps and then I hopped off…
I could feel him strain under my weight, his back sank a bit and he was just didin’t move right when he walked, so I jumped off and rubbed his back. We decided he wasn’t ready and didn’t try it again…
I was completely clueless and I STILL figured out it was a bad idea. No excuse for “proffesional trainers” to be doing something that stupid…
Just for info sake we still have the gelding and he’s fat, happy and prefectly sound. He was three before anyone hopped up on him again.
WOW! She looks seriously UNDER mounted. That horse looks young and little. If that is Amanda riding that poor creature here is a note to you personally:
GET A BIGGER HORSE! Your feet are nearly dragging on the ground. You are to big for that filly who is almost crouching in her attempt to carry way to much weight. What is the rule? 20 percent of the weight of the horse is what they can carry……as an adult! And do you actually think it is ok to ride a baby?? How desperate are you for money? What do you charge to cripple a horse?
And Ellie, you should be put in a cage for allowing this to happen.
I just got back in from a lovely afternoon trail ride on my training colt. I raised him myself… I knew him before he was even a black dot on the ultraound machine. I sat on him once or twice for a few minutes when he was two year old in his stall. Walked around a tiny little bit ( 5 minutes ) on him bareback when he was three. I did not start to really ride him ( 15-20 minutes ) till he was four. Now, at five, was his first summer to show under saddle. He went in a total of 6 dressage classes – 4 blues, 2 reds, and won the year end high point for his division. Plus he has a Res. World Halter Championship. Took him to one pleasure show this summer – three classses – 1 blue, 2 reds out of large classes. He hasn’t ever been ridden longer than 2 hours on the trails yet, and that time is mostly spend w/t, with a little canter. No hard work, no jumping, no hard turns or stops – ever – even as a 5 year old. This is how I train all my horses that I’ve raised. Next summer as a six year old, he’ll be tough as nails and ready for anything. I will show him dressage, pleasure and novice level competitive trail. I ride with a siimple snaffle and tennis shoes (no spurs). But out of my barn has come 27 world & reserve championship wins. All done while bopping around in my own backyard ( no trainer ). Living proof that you do NOT have to push young horses or adbuse ANY horse to do well. I would throttle anyone of my lesson kids if they ever rode a yearling or two year old, and I would refuse anyone wanting me to train one. Hasn’t hurt my business one little bit. In 45 years of horse showing, I have yet to have a horse that has required joint injections to stay sound. And, they live outside ( run-in shed and waterproof blankets) as much as possible. Often 24/7, weather permitting, You DON’T have to do what the big boys make you think you have to to do well. No crippled, over fed, stall bound, injected, tail done horses for me. I once over heard a trainer say that he planned to get one good year out of a young horse, before they broke down – nice heh? We have a local trainer who trained, and ruined, an 18 month old colt for a client training him for reining, doing slids and spins!!!!
Ooooh you are talking about one of my primary pet peeves! Got my blood a-boilin.
2-year-old Western pleasure horse classes. You HAVE to start them as yearlings … those horses have to be rock solid and BROKE to win.
And the futurities: 3-year-olds competing in reining, cutting, working cow, barrel racing, etc. And 3-year-old 5-gaited Saddlebred futurities! Don’t get me started on THAT.
Think about how good you have to be to even place at these contests. That level of training isn’t reached without really putting the screws to a horse.
For the futurities, many (most?) trainers start riding prospects well before they turn 24 months old, too. I know of a BNT that *regularly* backs his colts at 15-17 months. He probably gets 100 colts a year, and a handful are able to show the futurities when they’re 3. By the time they are 4 or 5, hock injections — IF they’re still sound enough to ride.
Anyone here who belongs to a breed organization in which these horses compete in futurities, PLEASE write letter to express your concern.
A mentor of mine who turned down serving on the board of one of these futurity associations when it was founded. He also severed several friendships after his colleagues (names you all will recognize) who took part in the futurities. He told them if you do this, you have no respect for horses, just money … go pound sand.
Oh, and btw, Adequan is a major sponsor of the NRHA Futurity. Sick.
Wow! It’s so sad knowing how many people think this is perfectly normal. I know I caught a lot of grief about my filly, because I said I was waiting for her to get older to break her in. Sure, when she was 2 I sat on her once, just for about a minute to see what she would do, and I did lunge her in a saddle a few times before she turned 3, but never for more than about 20 minutes and never very often. It was all just seeing how she would react and trying to make it easier when I tried to break her in. I didn’t start really riding her until she was 4, and at 4 and a half she went to a trainer for about a month and then came home. I ride her when I can but she’s still only green broke at 5. Now some of this is because I simply don’t have time to be consistent with her right now, I’m in my Sr. year in college. So it wouldn’t do much good to pay to get her broken in when I can’t do any reinforcing. So right now she gets to grow and sit there and look pretty. She keeps growing, too! I know when I was little I was told that you didn’t start a horse in dressage or jumping until they were 5 at the earliest, because it was so hard on them. And that’s what I want to do with her, so I figure I’m not hurting anything letting her be a baby just a little while longer, especially if I can afford to let her do that. Yet I still catch so much flack because of it! I dunno, I think she’s going to be just fine.
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My favorite excuse is how they are going to be TOO STRONG by the time they’re 3. Um, if my 16+ hand AQHA stallion was not TOO STRONG at 3 for little wimpy old me to break out without any big issues (in a bitless bridle, BTW), then I just don’t want to hear about it. Sure, a warmblood is going to be even bigger and stronger but the warmblood people aren’t the ones saying this claptrap. It’s usually some dillweed with a 14 hand reining prospect!
Aaaaaaaaaaand here’s the perfect point for me to jump in.
My horse turned 2 on 5/10/10. He’s 16.3 1/2 right now. He has worn a saddle – new Thorowgood T4 “Standard” to allow clearance for his withers – and he goes with a bit in his mouth. Stubben double jointed oval link snaffle bit. He’s got a 6″ mouth already, wears a full size bridle and actually needs and O/S browband. He wears a halter over his bridle and I will hook the longe line to the halter and work him at the end of the longe line, 10 minutes to each side in good footing, mostly trot/walk transitions.
The EXACT thing my trainer said is that if I wait until next fall he is going to be stronger and more difficult. She wants me to get on him a few times (read: no more than four times, no longer than 15-20 minutes each time) to teach him stop and go and turning. Will a cumulative 2 or three hours with my fat ass walking on a 2 1/2 year old and then giving him time off until next September really screw him up THAT bad?
I REALLY trust my trainer. And we’ve talked about legs and she doesn’t seem worried. (She started her horse the same way at 2 1/2 ish). I want this partnership with my horse to last a LONG time. If it goes into a wrestling match between me and the horse, the horse will win, hands down. I’d like to spend most of my time IN the saddle, not coming out of it…
At what point is the “training” damaging at 2 1/2? Trotting? Cantering? Riding for hours?
My personal 2 cents worth would be that walking only is probably not going to do any harm to a 2.5 year old.
However, I just don’t agree that they’re going to be any harder to start at 3 than they are at 2. If you have done all the ground work and you have a horse that ground drives extremely well, wears tack, etc. then why are they going to be hard to start? You have a whoa. You have voice commands. You have a horse that bends and listens to the reins. What is the problem going to be? I don’t get it.
Here’s my stupid reason:
My trainer doesn’t believe in starting-starting a horse under saddle until they are three (w/t/c) and then not in regular work. Start them the fall after they turn three, let them have the winter off, then start working them regularly their four year old year. This makes sense to me.
So what she’s saying is to get on him this winter a few times to teach him the leg aids, have me on his back so he can be used to having someone on/over him in a very low stress manner (ie, walking), while he’s off balance and weak and I have the upper hand. Then let him have the winter pretty much off, then do ground work, ground driving in the spring and summer, then really start him under saddle (w/t/c) fall of 2011, when he’ll be 3 1/2, larger, better balanced and stronger, winter off, regular work starting in the spring/summer of 2012. Which also makes sense to me.
This is my first baby. I have had a green horse (my OTTB) that she helped me train and after my kids were born I am terrified of jumping, even tiny cross rails, so I wanted to switch to just dressage, but my OTTB was a jumper at heart. So he is now an eventer in great shape and happier than a pig in slop and I got a yearling to do Dressage with once my kids go to school.
Reading this blog is why I’m worried about starting him too early, and on the other side of the coin I’m an out of shape amateur with a disabled shoulder (but I can still ride, which is what counts! You don’t use your rotator cuff to ride if you do it right…) and I don’t want to get hurt either. I want it to be happy all the way around. I am old and don’t bounce anymore.
How can I teach him having weight on his back and not being afraid of having someone up and behind him without getting on him? He’s super smart and very laid back – he knows his voice commands – but I haven’t ever worked off the bit with him and obviously he has no clue about leg aids. Or maybe just wait until spring and let him have the summer off and start him in the fall?
Again, I don’t think what your trainer is suggesting is likely to be damaging to your horse, but I also don’t think the alternative of waiting til he is at least very close to an honest three is likely to be damaging to whoever gets on him first.
In terms of desensitizing him so that the first time a rider is up, it’s not a big deal, I do a couple of things. First of all, longeing with tack and letting the stirrups bounce around will do a lot to cure any overreaction to leg. Second, I like to climb up a panel or fence and just sit there holding the horse and do things like tap all over their back with my foot, handle their head from above, etc. I do a lot of pleasant scritching and scratching of their neck, under their mane, etc. This gets them used to the idea of you being above them in space and that not being scary. Third, I spent time just walking them around the arena on foot and intermittently leaning on each stirrup with my hands, just putting weight and pull into it so that they get used to the idea that the saddle may shift and weight may shift and it’s not something to react to. Fourth, just stand at the mounting block and lean over and pat, pat, pat. Make some noise by patting the top of the saddle, pick up the flaps and let them fall. The more time you spend just sort of screwing around doing this silly stuff that anyone can do, the more it is just no big deal to them when you finally get on. I haven’t started a lot of horses, probably just ten or twelve, but I haven’t had an explosion even once…now that I think about it I haven’t ever had one do anything in the first half dozen rides. And most trainers I’ve talked to agree that getting on a new one is never as scary as getting on one that someone else has already messed up. THOSE are the ones most likely to put you in the E.R.
Remember, it’s not a lot of weight for them…it’s not the weight that can be scary, it’s the idea that someone is above them (like a predator – let’s face it, we’re in the same position as a mountain lion trying to eat them) and the flapping/bouncing of the tack and stuff like that. You get them to believe all of this will be okay and there really isn’t any reason for them to explode. And of course, you never get on any horse that does not have a really good “ho” command already installed from the ground. He should stop on voice when led, when ground driven, etc., whether or not the reins/halter are pulled on. Just drill that a lot, with plenty of praise when he gets it right. It’s a very important lesson. My guy figured out how to shake his head and make his split ear bridle with no throatlatch fall off, LOL, and boy was I glad the HO! command was firmly installed!
But I just don’t go fast. I don’t see any point to it. If the first ride, two, whatever, is being led around at a walk and petted, I see nothing wrong with that. If you want to get on and canter within three rides, well yeah, you are going to have a lot more drama. There are many different schools of thought on this. I used to read Mugwump’s stories of how she had to get on AND LOPE OFF the first ride per her boss’s directions. Holy crap! This is why I’m glad I have a desk job and don’t have to do horse stuff for a living.
Thanks. It sounds like introducing my horse to my klutz induced stupidity was a good thing and I just need to be doing it from higher up. I got some looks for dropping my saddle (one reason I kept my cheap Wintec, beating it up was an option) or sliding the girth over the opposite side of the horse and letting it fall. But if there’s one person that’s going to do something ridiculous like knock the saddle off the horse or accidentally bat him in the legs with it, it’s me so I felt it would be good to desensitize him to stuff like that.
I think this winter I’ll spend some time up on the mounting block leaning on the saddle – I’ve already lunged him around with his stirrups (one or both) swinging and bouncing around, and doing stuff where he can’t see me. Make it nice for him. And work on “Whoa”. Then in the spring when he’s almost really three I can jump on him. That has the added benefit of my husband being home from his deployment so if I DO get dumped I have someone to take care of the kids while I hobble around feeling like I got hit by a bus!
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed not having a horse with baggage, my first one had SEVERE baggage AND physicak issues, my second one just had severe baggage. It’s nice to have a fresh start and the only person screwing him up is me.
Oh. “I haven’t started a lot of horses, probably just ten or twelve”. lol. That’s 10 or 12 more than me, I like listening to people that a. Make sense b. know what they’re talking about 3. have btdt.
The difference between a 2 and 3 year old is not going to be so much as their size (they are both immature and still developing) but the comprehension that goes on between their ears and how they will choose to process it. The app on my avatar is 6 (yea, a little older than I had planned) but he has some maturing issues that give him a much better advantage to accept new things than he did say even a year ago. I don’t know why he has these issues, perhaps because when I got him the former owner had just gelded him and were working on under saddle training ( ready to ride, they were!). Well, as it turned out, he was still a baby and they did not know this. He was only a long yearling and was certainly not ready physically or mentally. Now he has most of his ground work completed (over a 4 year period) and ready for mounting. He just has to get over those scary white bags hanging around, or I don’t consider him safe for trail riding.
I just wanted to quickly comment that my trainer did the exact same thing for one of her clients horses… the mare was just shy of three and a big bodied 17.1 hh. Basically got lightly lunged in tack 3 days a week, and sat on maybe once a week for 10 minutes basically so that she got the idea that humans were supposed to be on her back, and that is was a good thing, before she realized how big she was. She was never trotted under saddle, just learned the basics of turning and stopping and moving off the leg (only to go on to a 20m walk circle). She was then given the winter off with only some light lunging and lots of turnout. It’s worked well, and most of the Warmbloods I’ve met respond well to this approach.
I hate that bullshit, too. I’ve only broke out a literal handful of unstarted babies and the youngest was a calendar three years old. None of them were particularly difficult, but the easiest of them all was the 6 year old warmblood! She never offered anything naughty – no bucks, rears, bolts, spooks, nothing! If she didn’t understand a cue, she just tried different responses until she got the “Good girl!” pet, and she retained information very well, also. This horse was not handled extensively before backing, either, in fact she was a broodmare (don’t get me started). Now, either I got really lucky and got sent a training horse with an exceptionally good mind – very possible – or her maturity in mind and body made my job a hell of a lot easier. I tend to think it’s a combination of both, although the fact that 4 and 5 year olds I started were also easier than the two 3 year olds makes me lean toward the maturity argument.
I’ve never seen the point of breaking in at 18mo, but that goes triple if you’re a chunk-a-monk like the trainer is (and I feel safe saying this because I’m her size). It’s bad enough when you have some 90lb reed up there in a racing saddle, but a full figured gal with a western saddle on a small 18mo QH is really pushing up to (or over) 20% of the horse’s weight. Hell, I’m at 16% on my 3yo twh filly and she makes this qh look like a wee little pony. I put 60 days of mostly walking on my horse and am letting her chill until she’s 4.
And it isn’t like this horse is so amazingly talented that she’s a serious prospect for the top wp futurities. She looks like a perfectly average horse at a mid to low level trainer’s barn that will never be a world beater. So why the hell can’t the owner hold off a year or two? She really can’t wait to get her ass handed to her in the 2yo futurities by the BNTs?
Hahaha! I’m glad I’m not the only one who describes them self a chunk monkey. That poor filly look about the same size as my 3 yr old. He’s an orphan and it looks like he’s not going to be very big. I couldn’t imagine my ass up on him like that lady
is on that poor filly.
At 190 (and carrying it well) I looked too big on my 15.2H ADULT OTTB. He could carry me no problem (he had such a nice short back – great build!) but I was SO paranoid about saddle fit and making sure he was wet evenly and checking for any soreness or discomfort to even hint at him having issues carrying me. And I’m just an amateur. I’m smart, and I can help people train their horses for no money and even I know that I should not get on anything 18 months old. At 18 months my guy I have now was 16 hands and I told my husband he (the horse) was too small for me to get on him and start training him yet!
Good Lord! Did you check out the photos on her “Show Team” page?? What the heck kind of contraption is that on the poor dark bay about halfway down, with Ms. Trainer of the Year (not!) with her big honking spurs on?? No wonder the horses travel with their heads down to the ground, they train them so it’s physically impossible for them not to! Gah. I’m going to not assume this is a blanket trend and that there are decent western trainers who do NOT do that. Makes me want to buy a youngster for my first horse (been riding for 20+ years, just haven’t had an opportunity to own yet) just so I know it won’t be f’ed up already, though.
Ick…loved the much to short martingale that PULLS the horses head down, and OH..the one with the spur scars all over it’s sides. NO Way would I take my horse there.
I spend way too much time commenting on here.
Anyway, I came from a hunter barn that had gadgets for EVERYTHING. From full cheek snaffles (wait a minute and I’ll explain) to standing martingales, running and draw reins. Gadgets, gadgets, gadgets. And they weren’t USED properly! The barn I’m at now is gadget-less. The closest thing I’ve seen to a gadget is a set of side reins that hook higher up on a surcingle so if the horse tries to buck it actually makes him work harder onto the bit. I was told at this barn that you get a full cheek or D-ring snaffle for young horses or horses that open their mouths and are at risk to accidentally have the bit pulled into their mouth during training. Other barn? Get a full cheek snaffle so you can crank laterally on their face.
GADGETS DON’T WORK. Training is what works. Take the time and train your horse and it’s there 98% of the time (the 2% of the time that you’re horse didn’t selectively “forget”). You don’t have to worry about not being allowed to have something in the show ring, because you taught your horse the right thing by rewarding him for doing the right thing and correcting the wrong thing, not by physically forcing them to do it.
Notice how her horses have huge asses and NO topline? They aren’t working through their back. They CAN’T work through their back. I looked through all her pictures. I saw gadgets, horses behind the vertical, and I’m calling Photoshop on “Tango” on the sale page. Go down the bottom of his neck and it looks like something took a chunk out of his jugular.
No, I wouldn’t go there either, based ONLY on what I saw on her own web site.
All else aside, even if this were an adult horse, isn’t she a bit small to be packing around someone as big as that trainer? Whose feet could practically touch the ground from the horse’s back? Poor little filly ain’t the one smiling.
Possibly too fine boned, but not too small. Too many people equate horse size with horse strength. I have a 14 hand mare who packs me around (200 lbs) with no problem. I had a 16.2 hand mare who couldn’t stay sound with me riding her (or anyone for that matter).
Check build, not size. Technically that goes for humans too– no one has ever guessed my real weight. I’m heavy for my size.
It’s not the height that counts, it’s the length of the back and the depth of the heart girth.
The Britons in the Dark Ages and the Mongols all rode ponies. And these were all fully grown adult men.
The video is taken down now so I can’t comment on it, but I wanted to say it’s so true about height not equaling strength. A stout pony with a short back and good bone will be able to carry proportionally much more weight than a tall horse with fine bones and a long back.
Speaking as a heavier person myself, I’d much rather see a heavy person riding a well built, 14 hand bulldog type Quarter Horse or than a 16.2 hand light Thoroughbred any day. Of course… I’d prefer if both horses were over 3 years of age before anyone jumps on them!
I agree! How the horse is built is extremely relevant. Height is meaningless. The best horse for a larger rider is a short backed horse with a solid hip, big bones and appropriately sized feet. That may not be the heaviest or the tallest horse. Many Arabians (NOT the weedy crap we see coming out of backyard breeders, but a more solidly built one with good bone and a real hip) can easily carry a 200 lb person even if the horse is 14.2 or 14.3.
Awesome point
This is why I like pony breeds like Connemaras – they’re fully capable of carrying adults despite their height because they’re very strongly built.
Long time lurker, first time poster here. I freely admit that I don’t know much, but I am positive that, no matter what the species, you shouldn’t make a ‘baby’ do the work of an ‘adult’.
Kind of off topic, but thought this was interesting… http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7041337/
Regarding the auction in Banning, CA: all horses are selling without reserves by killer-auction owner Mike of Mike’s in Chino. Some expect that several killers will be there to clean-up with mares, babies and everything in between. These horses need our prayers and help although it is late to physically help them…
I broke yearlings in Europe each year that were about 18 months old. We did it gently by lounging them in soft ground first day with halter, bridle and pad, then the next day with a saddle then bag in the saddle, then the next day with a light rider on them. The next day small groups of yearlings who knew each others very well since they were raised together were turned loose for walk, jog and soon light canter, all on soft loamy sand with a bouncy bottom. Light exercise through the winter, walk, jog, slow canters when the ground was not frozen, traveling a total of about 5 to 6 miles per day, out for about 90 minutes. Those babies were very sound, totally off drugs including during their racing careers. Very few accidents even though my trainer trained over 350 horses at once that were under his direct supervision. He was the leading trainer in France and trained for HH Aga Khan and other prestigious owners and breeders. He also trained a yard full of Amercan bred and owned horses that with the same excellent horsemanship and training didn’t break down like American horses trained and raced in American do.
I believe that breaking horses early is fine. It is a matter of careful breeding for soundness, correct conformation, shoeing, staying off-drugs, with carefully measuring exercise and rest as needed, with excellent training skills, over gentle, flat terrain, great feed, comfortable stabbling, plenty of sun to develop strong bones, plenty of walking and jogging to warm up, etc.
Scientific research shows that exercise before 3 helps develop stronger bones. Of course the key is not over-doing it to keep babies sound. Exercising babies should be done under the best of circumstances, footing, with light riders.
I am talking about Thoroughbreds here and it is possible that certain breeds take longer to mature.
In the spring these babies had longer gallops, a little faster ones on the grass over 3/4 to one mile without turns to stress their legs, every few days. 80 to 90 two year olds at a time on the vaste expense of grass in Chantilly – what a sight it was!). These horses were for the most homebreds, carefully bred for soundness and stamina, not just for precocity and speed from incorrect, unsound but fast parents. Sound breeding, management, feed (all babies ate one cup of cod liver oil every day during the winter to help develop strong bones) and all horses ate a rich warm mash with flax seeds, rolled oats and other grains in the evening. All of that, including flat, soft, bouncy ground, doing enough without over-doing it, light riders, light hands, are important factors to keep babies from bucking shins and horses of all ages sound.
Sorry, but this information is skewed for the race industry and out of date as well as incorrect. I have no idea why people continue to say that it is beneficial to the horse to back it at two, when it quite obviously is not!!
It reminds me a lot of the creationists, who believe, in the face of so much evidence to the contrary I am surprised they are not buried by it, that the world is 4,000 years old and the bible is historical truth !!
Here is another one she broke as a yearling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_QRtjwMqiw
And OT: does anyone know about ‘predator flies’, which are flies (or larvae) you sprinkle in the manure pile, and they hatch and eat the regular fly larvae, so keeping the numbers lower. I am trying to find out about the feasibility of doing this, but no sites ever get back to me…or are no longer working. Anyone done this? Tks
The fly predators are actually the larvae of a species of wasp that eat flies. I don’t know the exact biology of it but I do know that you have to get several batches of predators for the season because one batch of fly predators won’t last you all season/year. My trainer uses them and except for this year which was REALLY bad for bugs her barn is relatively bug free.
There are also nemaetodes (several varieties) that will kill grubs and maggots, diatamaceus earth and other natural methods.
Avoid fly traps. You will be attracting flies to your barn.
We use fly predators on our farm (we have about 30 head of beef cattle and my horse) and they have done an AMAZING job! The number of flies on the horse and cows have been cut by 90%!
My mare is out grazing during the summer and her tail is barely swishing.
They are totally worth the money.
That being said, I did read somewhere that they wont make as big an impact if a next door neighbor has a bunch of places for the flies to breed (manure piles, etc) b/c the flies will just wander across the property line.
I’ve used them for about 5 years now… and I get mine from Spalding Labs. I start in April and reapply once a month until October. They work great…
Good luck!!
http://36andsingle.blogspot.com/
A barn I used to keep my horse at did this. I think they maybe spread them a few times a summer on the pile. They come in a bag and you wait for them to hatch and just put them on. I think they did it in the late afternoon, but I am not sure. They seemed very easy to use. They also used the hanging flytraps that you fill with water. There is the smell of death inside (its bad don’t sniff these things) and the flies go in, can’t get out and die. This barn had very few flies, and was pleasant all spring and summer long.
My mom buys fly predators from We see a reduction, but not elimination, of the little flies. Unfortunately, they don’t do anything for horseflies.
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“predator flies” – I think you mean “fly predators”. The ones most commonly used are a tiny kind of wasp that don’t bother or sting humans. I worked at a stable that used these, and was very impressed – place had very few flies, and she had a good sized manure pile and at least a dozen stalls in use at any given time. Never really noticed the wasps, we just sprinkled them on the manure pile whenever a new shipment arrived. I will totally use them when I build my own ranch.
My parents use Fly Predator, with moderate success. This was only our first year with it. They have two horses and one steer (cow) on a 13 acre farm. There were a lot less flies than I’ve seen at other farms, but we did have to use fly spray frequently. We had issues with the chickens eating our Fly Predator bugs, so maybe a farm without chickens would have better success.
BTW, I have never noticed the Fly Predator bugs themselves outside of the pouch they ship in. So, it’s not like you are replacing one annoying bug with another.
Everyone I’ve talked to that has used it, loves it. It’s probably worth a try, but keep in mind that you have to use it for a few months before you’ll notice a difference. I’ve heard that your best bet is to start in the spring before you even see the first fly.
I believe this is the supplier my parents use. http://www.spalding-labs.com/
That is ridiculous.
My coach is a fairly successful dressage breeder, trainer, and rider (regularly competes at the provincial level, and sometimes the national level). I am proud to say that she would NEVER consider riding a horse this young, despite that success, and the fact that she could probably start competing horses earlier and get more training on them if she did. She’s in it for the long haul with each of her horses.
Basic handling from birth to two years (leading, manners, halter on and off, picking up feet, grooming, and “mauling,” i.e., petting, rubbing, and scritching all over, and exposing them to as many different people, animals, noises, etc. as possible). Light ground work from two to three years (a little bit of lunging, putting tack on and off), and at three, start very light riding and progress according to each individual horse. Training takes as long as it takes, no shortcuts.
She has one horse she started competing at a national level at only four years old (maybe five), but he was by far an exceptional case. Very quiet, very easy to train, very well behaved, eager to please, enjoyed what he was doing, large and sturdy, high stamina and strength, and I believe he finished growing early, so was able to handle more riding when she started him at three than most.
My trainer is the same way. She has a stallion that was lightly started at 3. He is eight now, and guess how far they have come? He recently competed at US nationals. That just goes to show you how good training can go a very, very long way.
Here’s another one from dreamhorse. When I read this add I had to look twice. He’s not 2! http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1622460&share_this=Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRxU1X_bRGE
Fugs, I find your timing uncanny. Just when I’m thinking something, your post is on the same topic. My big 4 yr old was just started last year. He is now doing some real work, and doing it rather well. I have had someone express interest in him, for a pretty hefty price. It made me wonder what I could find out there that I would be willing to ride. I think I’m better off keeping my guy. Anyway, I decided, I deserve to ride a good horse. We’ll just keep it our little secret that he was once a $300 colt headed quickly for the slaughter truck.
They all look like peanut pushers to me. Which means in addition to riding them too young they generally have their heads tied down to get that “look”. Ugly, unnatural, and IMHO unnecessary.
I will say that a lot of them go low naturally…mine certainly did, had to pick his head UP for the show ring…seriously!
But when you see a two year old loping in the current style…yeah, they’ve been at the very least ridden too hard for their age. Getting that lope is a LOT of work. I never saw that first hand til last year…mine was 4 and it still proved to be hard on him, even done in a non-abusive way. It is just plain hard work for a horse to lope that slowly with that much drive from the hocks. If they are doing it wrong, it is ugly and if they are doing it right, it is hard work and hard on the hocks. Compare it with dressage, where young horses are never asked for such collected work because the strain on the back and hocks is understood to be too much for them.
Cathy,
My quarter horse also carries her head low naturally. How did you train/teach the VLC to carry his head higher? The low carriage of her head makes me nervous that at any minute she’s going to buck and I’m going to go flying off. Also because her head is so close to the ground on trail rides she will often try to grab a mouthful of grass so I have to give a very quick tug on the reins and I hate pulling on her face. Suggestions anyone?
Let me ask my trainer for her input on that. She did a great job of getting him really consistent. He went below level a lot when he was really green, and particularly when we were first starting to lope!
She’s not only too big for that little yearling, she’s driving the poor little thing with her seat. I would think the fillie’s back would be very sore.
OK, no time to read ALL comments, but here’s one of my very favorite essays, for those of you who haven’t seen it before:
http://www.robertmmiller.com/andthcaushol.html
When companies like Adequan sponsor reining futurities, there’s something seriously f-ed up.
I went to a QH barn year before last …. our 4H club was using the arena that night…. the trainer showed us this horse she said was CRAZY… because he hadn’t been started till he was 4.
Noooo, he was probably crazy because you kept him tied up to the arena wall while a bunch of strange horses and people rode around behind him, then turned him into a round pen – which I bet was his only turnout – and of course subjected him to the rest of the crap the lower-rung WP trainers do to their horses. This was the same trainer who at another meeting was at one end of the arena telling people to git those horses’ heads down while I was at the other end telling ‘em to get out of their horses’ mouths….
Stock horse people who do the big fancy circuits generally aren’t interested in longevity.
OK that might’ve been knee-jerk of me, but it IS true that there are a great many owners & trainers who think that you’re SUPPOSED to hurry up & get ‘em ready for the futurities….
“When companies like Adequan sponsor reining futurities, there’s something seriously f-ed up.”
Well yeah, you gotta follow the money…the money always tells the story!
There’s an Azteca where I board that wasn’t started until he was 6. He was a ROYAL PITA, not because he wasn’t started under saddle until he was six but because he learned very early on that he was allowed to run humans over, didn’t have to listen and could do whatever he wanted. Took about a year for his attitude to change but until that happened he was pretty rank (this was a gelding), very inconsistent. One day he’d be perfect, the next day he’d be pinning his ears back and bucking and kicking every time you touched him with your leg.
Funny, now that his temperament has improved about 1000% he looks and moves soooo much nicer!
I hate seeing over weight trainers who ride behind the vertical giving unclear signals, I just loved the trot-walk transition, it was brilliant on the rider’s part. It makes me sick. I think any well kept yearling can look like that. My t-breds always did by 18 months, they always looked mature. This video and the owner of the horse are exactly why I am going to start training again. I can’t afford my own, but I can help other folks keep theirs. The owner also needs to understand the applications of the words then and than. Poor little horses. People suck
To me that is not well broke. I can see this as being her second ride and her being consistent. She is being ridden in a side pull so this has to be very early in her training. We raised QHs and by the time they were under saddle they were well on their way. We didn’t start ours that early though.
Poor baby, hope she has a kind owner when she gets older. As crazy kids we would climb aboard the 2 yr olds in pasture then get the herd going. One sweet girl, Honeycomb, would just go along, but you could tell the wt made a difference. She would wobble a bit on the turns or speed. But we were stupid kids, 11-12. Little kids, 80 lbs maybe.
That filly looks like she’s been carting a large rider around for more than 2 times!
I got my mare as a going on 5 year old, green broke, well bred. But I moved her to a place that only had 1 trail off the barn and it was up a steep hill. I never rode her hard but she got bog spavins in the hocks and I’m sure it was from the hill, we’re talking a least a mile with a pretty steep grade. I should have worked on it gradually. Ignorance, paid for by the animal. In this day and age of instant info, this kind of stupidity makes me angry.
AMEN Fugs, AMEN!
I have been bitching about this for as long as I can remember, at shows, barns, and races. And people always just give me the “still gnawing away at that old bone?” look.
I strongly believe it is this exact thing, riding, training, and working them too young that ruins them long before their time!
My old paint, Shorty, wasn’t started til late 3 (2 months before 4th birthday) and heavily ridden/trained for a specific discipline (which turned out to be freestyle reining) until 5 and onward and he was still going well under saddle when he was 35 years old when we retired him. After that he was a well-loved fat old pasture ornament until he was sent over the bridge as toothless, blind old guy due to chronic trachea problems and chronic choking at 39.
(And I never one had to use that torture device crap on Shorty to get a good stop, his head on the vertical, or a slow but NORMAL canter, or sliding stop. He did it all trained bitless!)
I think the racing industry makes me the most angry. Here in Utah, there are QH racers and they start their colts and fillies at 12 months old and put a rider on them at 16 months old, all for those two year old races. And it’s no wonder that over half of their stock comes back with knee chips, bone splits, fractures, etc after their first race.
I can’t thank you enough for touching on this subject.
I’ve been around polo since I was a kid, and I guarantee you that the vast majority of the soundness issues we deal with aren’t caused by polo, hard work though it is. It’s the old crap from the track that is an endless battle. The clicking, cracking joints from being ridden as yearlings. The old bowed tendons. The issues caused by the terrible shoeing and the rundown heels.
So she’s a trainer? With THOSE chicken wings for arms and TERRIBLE center of balance? Why? Oh, and did anyone else notice her wonderful hands? They were great, truly great.
“Hey, I’m going to sit on your horse and ride him for really cheap and train him. Look, I’m a trainer!” Just because someone is training a horse doesn’t make them a GOOD trainer.
*muttering* At least I was smart enough to learn how to ride and work with a green horse with quiet hands before trying to break a young horse!
Aww, poor filly–she looks like a very tolerant girl, why is she being ridden by someone of that size?? I hope she ends up in a better place.
(Not saying that rider is obese but she is clearly too large for a baby with developing…everything.
The Quarter Horse filly I own now is 2 years + 7 months old. She was started in the spring (May?) at just over 2 years of age. I have no idea how much riding she got with the morons who started her but my gawd, she was started WRONG! (Long story, I won’t bore you all with it.) Anywho, when I got her I had to call in my “trainer” to restart her. No professional here, just a young woman in her 20s. I came to know her when a friend bought a gelding she’d trained. I was really impressed with him and wanted her to work with my filly. Even though this filly is HUGE for a two year old (solid muscle with a sturdy build) and has been mistaken for a mature mare a few times, we are taking this veeeeeery slowly. I hope that she is my last horse and I expect to ride for another 20 years. I want a horse who is sound and comfortable for those 20 years…and beyond. Right now she is being worked once or twice a week for a couple hours at a time. (Starting with basic manners such as leading politely, picking up feet for cleaning and trimming, moving hind end away from the handler…to a few laps in the round pen each way…to standing nicely for grooming and tacking up…and then a ride consisting of mostly walking with a wee bit of trotting in there for fun. So she’s not exactly working up much of a sweat here, ha ha. And this is all done on soft grass footing. I *LOVE* this horse, why the hell would I risk her future?)
I know that some people are just plain BORED with a horse you can’t ride…I’ve been there but you know what? When I couldn’t get past that I sold the damn yearling and got myself a mature horse I could ride! Simple enough solution!
Off topic, I hope that is alright–would any experts on here care to critique a saddle fit for me?
I am afraid I would have started by throwing her back into the field for a year……
I have discovered one of the best ways to undo bad training and build a bond with a horse is to let them chill out and be a horse and just work on ground manners.
AMEN to that! And it works at just about every age, too.
I was tempted to do just that actually but decided to have her restarted lightly (and properly) becasuse she needed to learn EVERYTHING from the ground up. I basically had a horse who I couldn’t handle reliably when I needed to. She wouldn’t lead without balking or leaping away. Her feet needed trimming but we couldn’t safely handle her feet. And I didn’t need a horse on a quarter section who couldn’t be caught or haltered should she get loose or be injured. From there it was only natural to teach her to calmly accept saddle and bridle, after being sacked out with other “scary” stuff. And then learning stop and turns from the ground. And then hop on for a little “sit in the saddle” session. First few “riding” sessions were two laps around the round pen. Good job! I think she’s getting about 30 minutes riding total now (with breaks every few minutes while the trainer explains every step she’s performing). 2 years + 7 months with a good start is not shocking, is it? (That’s not asked in an ignorant way, I am asking seriously.) I did a lot of research and also asked my farrier, a vet tech friend, a different trainer and several knowledgable riding friends and the general opinion was she she should be fine, especially knowing how careful I tend to be with my horses. While it will be several years before she’s fully matured I understand that carrying a lighter rider and a lighter saddle at a walk (and a trot for the length of one side of an arena, once or twice a session) shouldn’t cause her any problems at this age (barring an injury or a problem she is already predisposed to).
If she had arrived happy as a clam and accepting of general handling I definitely would have given her until May to “relax”…but I needed to be able to work with her when necessary. Trust me, working in the nippy weather we have had was not fun. If I could have avoided it I would have! The rest, done only after general handling skills were practiced and we had assessed my filly’s mental and physical state for the day, was mostly gently correcting what was screwy (scared of the saddle, didn’t know what ‘whoa’ meant, didn’t stand for mounting) and quietly getting her used to having a rider on her back. And there were a few sessions that ended right after the ‘basic knowledge’ lessons because she was frazzled or tuned out for whatever reason. We understand that she is a youngster and won’t always be ready to work.
After today’s session she IS done for the season (expect snow any day now) but will have a refresher in May after which we’ll follow along on some level trail rides–about an hour riding time including many stops for photo opps and breathers.
I’ve just added up the riding time she’s had since I got her two months ago…approx. 2.5 hours. I probably should have clarified that “a couple hours” of work meant that the timer started the moment she was caught (for payment purposes), not the amount of riding she was getting. Although I think maybe you are not in agreement with us riding this horse at all–and you are entitled to your opinion–I just wanted to clarify that.
I guess I’m way too slow with my colt. Blue will be 4 on May 31. I’ve done some ground work, worked on ground manners and basic stuff. But I haven’t sat on him yet. He’s almost 16 hands but until a couple months ago he still looked like a baby to me. His chest is finally starting to fill out and he isn’t butt high any more. Now he is starting to look like a horse, not a colt. By spring I hope to start him under saddle. I waited too long for a horse like him to ruin him now.
As someone who has started teenage mares under saddle, I honestly think all of that stuff about how they’re going to be SO HARD is a lot of claptrap. Sure, they will be SO HARD if, say, someone has Parellicized them for 10 years. But if they’re just broodmares who sat in a field and don’t know anything, the biggest problem you are likely to get is stubbornness…not anything life threatening.
Hear, hear. My Lexie was finally started at age 13 by a pair of savvy teenaged girls whose own horses were lame and (the girls) needed something to do. Within three weeks, they were riding Lexie W/T/C in an arena and she was going around with a look like, “It’s about time somebody gave me a job!!” Huge off-the-track TBs bombing around half out of control didn’t phase her (although an unexpected deer flying over the fence into the ring about ten feet in front of her went pretty far toward convincing me that she could have a future as a cutting horse). She responds to everything new with a quick “WTF?” and then, “Oh. Okay.” She is still a little green, but I am confident I could saddle her up and ride her to California tomorrow, with her getting to know new stuff along the way.
Sure. We got this 10 year old Arab mare in ’07 that had not only been starved but had never been away from her dam. Not even halter broke. Rescued in February, I rode her at the SAFE show in August, and before Christmas she was adopted to a little girl who has her to this day and shows her successfully. Yes, she has a trainer, but honestly that mare never really did anything. She was thrilled to have the attention and is a happy pocket pony to this day.
And hey, anything short of a total meltdown at the deer incident is a sign of a very smart and sensible horse!
I used to breed Arabs. The past tense came when my brood mares were taken over by the kids because they were better than the animals of the same size that we had been to see with a view to purchase. Of course all my broodmares had been backed but that was it, really, backed!
One mare went out the field for the first time as a five year old looking quite surprised, as the oldest’s mare had gone lame. She hacked up to the show (hunter trial) with a friend with a very reliable pony, won the class (Novice Hunter Trial) and put herself out of Novice!
A pure bred mare of mine was hi jacked because the friends pony was out of action, and went to Pony Club camp….honestly, I had had NO idea she could jump quite as well as that, I did know she was fast, but, well…..
The youngest of my mares was the five year old, the Anglo/Welsh was seven, the Arab was seven, her pony son was five…I could go on! If they are started right, and have their ground manners in place, it is just “reminding” them when they start being ridden.
We did get three New Forest mares, off the Forest, very similar to Mustangs in temperament, the youngest of which was five. Once they were stalled and separated they were being ridden within a week. Once they had decided that we were not Satan incarnate, the really nice one with papers was showing, and winning at Novice level, within ten weeks. These are strong, “wild” (as in “never been touched”) mature animals. Any trainer that needs to get on a yearling because it is too strong at the correct age…well, NOT a trainer!
That is abuse, not training.
All the rubbish about how horses need to be ridden?
RUBBISH…Horse Doo Doo!!
Show me a Mustang, a Welsh Mountain, a Dartmoor, etc, that gets ridden as a yearling?
They come down off the hills/out of the woods as wild as cats in a sack, and they are tamed down and working with you within days without exception.
I speak from years of experience, here, it is just ABUSE pure and simple.
Call animal control on them!!
And BTW, if it is all OK, how come all the videos have been taken down?
She could just have disabled comments if she did not want the flack, could she not?
Yeah, it’s kind of amazing. If YOU feel you did nothing wrong, why are you trying to hide the evidence of what you did?
Logical FAIL.
“Show me a Mustang, a Welsh Mountain, a Dartmoor, etc, that gets ridden as a yearling?
They come down off the hills/out of the woods as wild as cats in a sack, and they are tamed down and working with you within days without exception.”
This caught my attention – do you think it’s the “wild” in them that makes this transition easier? And by that, I mean the wild animal’s ability to adapt to new situations quickly in order to survive? Just wondering…
According to Janet Harrington at her blog Mugwumps Chronicle, it’s because everything you do with an untouched horse has meaning. With the babies we’ve raised, few things have meaning to them. They’ve seen it all. Her archives are a real treasure.
I agree. Janet truly understands horses. I think the most valuable thing she ever wrote is the blog about how if they are good, PUT THEM AWAY AND LEAVE THEM ALONE. How many times have we seen someone have a green horse be good so they just keep going in class after class and the horse starts disintegrating and then they feel the need to fight it out and … choo! choo! Pretty soon you have a brain fried, ruined young horse.
Whereas if you have the good class AND QUIT they actually got REWARDED for being good.
I agree with you 100% For the most part I much prefer to start a horse who has been running wild in his age-group field than a horse who was raised as a back yard pet. Horses teach each other manners and body language which really gives me something to work with when it is time to start them. All too often, the backyard raised horse is clueless about such matters and must learn how to move out of your space and pay attention to body language before any real training can even begin; perhaps they have learned to tune out all of the human “noise” that comes in the form of cues that mean nothing. The wild ones usually are halter broke, leading, lungeing in a roundpen, wearing leather, and understanding personal space in two days.
Smart and sensible, that’s my Lexie. BTW, she is, of course, Arabian and a rescue (thanks to the old Arabian Horse Rescue Net) with a pedigree that goes back to 1702. A fact she reminds me of any time I do something less than perfectly and she gives me THAT look.
It’s the horses that are allowed to be pigs on the ground, not handled, not taught manners and not taught ANYTHING that will end up being dangerously stubborn. I’d assume even a broodmare would need to have good ground manners and the basic understanding that “humans are the boss”.
I know a horse that wasn’t handled until he was about 18 months old. Draft cross at the age of six or seven was a nightmare and very dangerous, he smashed his rider into a wall and on another occasion bit her, picked her up and THREW her. I don’t know the woman’s name but he was sold to a woman who works specifically with dangerous horses.
It’s interesting– I was just talking to someone recently about how certain industries begin to be inured to practices that outsiders view as horrific. From the spurring/faceripping western pleasure industry, to the ‘puteminastallforever’ halter industry, to soring in Walkers, to … you get the picture. The people in those industries are so used to seeing it, that it gets slowly worse and worse, until they are mostly all doing it without even thinking about it. It takes someone on the outside to come in, look around, and go, “Holy Hell, do you people SEE what you are doing?!”
By the way, I wasn’t talking horses with the individual– I was talking wrestling (cutting weight). The conclusion I came to was that most if not all industries could improve with some outside influence on policies. It often takes an outsider to see what is really wrong.
Wow, well theres so much wrong with this video and it being a 1yo filly is just one of them.
I would like to put a prediction out there……..Ten years, give or take a few, this poor mare will be standing in a field/stall waiting to pop out a crap shot baby. Her hocks will be shot and the injection will cost too much to give her because really shes “Just a brood mare”. Her toes will be chipped and a few months past due for a trim and because she is carrying extra weight its hard for her to balance for the cheap cut rate farrier and so he/she will smack her out of irritation and lack of understanding.
When she has served her years as a brood mare and can no longer produce or starts to have costly complications they will choose one of the following paths for her.
1. Auction…..I wont elaborate. You fugs readers already know.
2. Retrain/shape up for a new owner…..After a few large doses of bute and god knows what other drugs they will try to make her look like a suitable riding horse again. We all know that even if she does manage to find a buyer they will eventually figure out that they where duped and choose #1 or #3 for her. Since they just bought her and havent had a real chance to become emotionally attached enough to fork over the money willingly for #3 we can all assume that option 1 is more likely.
3. REAL Retirement. No baby making, no riding, just being a horse and getting the required care a SR citizen deserves. This requires putting out money for a horse that is deemed “Useless” and is a hard choice for corrupt or not emotionally attached people to make.
There is a fourth option but it almost never happens because people look at it as horrible and mean…..#4 Put the poor girl to sleep. The rainbow bridge, the black abyss, the wherever you want to convince yourself we go when we die has got to be a better place than any of these options for a horse that has truly suffered her ENTIRE LIFE. Yes even #3 because she is still walking in pain and even though you dont want to admit it you hate not knowing when is going to be the day.
Shall we start a poll on which option they are going to choose for this poor girl that we will be reading about in a few years???!!!
Bringing up babies is something of a lost art these days. I don’t understand the big push to get them out and going in training before being a true three (not a January 3 either). People are just so concerned with getting their “investment” back. If done right, babies are fairly inexpensive to raise before they go into training. Field board with a few youngins and and old fogey or two to keep the herd in check is pretty inexpensive and then barefoot trims and monthly worming and twice yearly vet check (vacc. and teeth) tah dah.
I remember a long time ago Bruce Davidson had an article about his success at raising top level eventers from foaling to 4star. He said he brings them in from living out in herds at a long two and does all the long lining and prep work, then turns them out for 3 months. Brings them in again in the spring of their 3yo year and does 90 days basic, then back out for 3 months. Then back in in the fall for a bit more and then fox hunting in the winter. By the 5 yo year you have a horse that has some experience, but is lightly started. With the time off in between it avoids stressing the young horse mentally, and allows them to grow into themselves. Most of his upper level horses stayed sound well into their late teens, and some even went on to take young riders up the lower levels.
Thing is the people saying “there’s no harm” in breaking the babies young 99.9% of the time have no intention of keeping those horses long enough to find out. How many of those that break their 18-24 m/o still have that horse when it is 8 or 14. And I bet a decent percentage of those horses at 12 are with an owner who is desperately trying to beat the clock with joint injections/supps/magnets/red light/chiro/accupunture/accupressure. No harm my aunt fanny.
In my opinion, training for reining is just as bad as training for racing. They are all started as long yearlings or 2 year olds and are pushed way way way too hard. At least, in a way, racing is more natural for the horse whereas reining simply is not natural in any sense. You might see your 2 year olds out galloping across a big field when they play, but you’ll never see them doing spins on the spot multiple times or performing sliding stops.
It’s horrible. That little filly is pretty well broke, too, which means she’s probably had, what? 30 days already… if not more.
I don’t breed, I don’t own young horses, and I have no desire to, but if I did, I would not even be sure I’d teach an 18month old to ground drive in a straight line let alone longe it or even think of riding it.
Pushing babies so far so young is something I think should be stopped by the shows/races. Set new standards and start offering futurities to 5 year olds or something… make the Triple Crown races only open to 4 year olds. I don’t know if it will ever change, but I do think it should change. If the shows didn’t offer classes/prizes for these horses, the trainers wouldn’t push them so hard at such a young age.
http://www.kshai1715.wordpress.com
A Barrel Horse Learns to Jump
I upgraded a yearling filly off of Craigslist this spring. She was 11 months old at the time. Both the owner and the barn manager bragged to me on seperate occasions that they had already started riding her. But they “had only led her around with a saddle and rider, she hasn’t had a bridle on yet” as if the bridle was the evil part. I guess that’s what you get when you call about a $75 horse on craigslist and the owner says “I can’t stay to meet you, if you like her, just leave the money in the tack room, I’ll leave a bill of sale in there for you to sign.”
I may lay over her back once or twice the fall of her 2 y/o year, but she won’t be started until she is 3, and her body looks mature enough to handle it.
“Looking” and “Being” are two totally different pairs of shoes. If we went by “Looking”, breaking a 15-month-old Pleasure-bred QH would be perfectly acceptable.
Hey, good for you for upgrading your horse! Ridden at 11 months… poor thing.
There are plenty of fun things you CAN do with a baby to prep them for the day they will be ridden, without overdoing things, without frazzling their brains, and without making Parelli or others like him rich. When I bought my pony, she was just 18 months old. (Well, I was told she was two, but the vet and I both took one look and said, nuh-uh!) So in the beginning, I’d go out to the field and just feed her carrots and pat her, and then after a few weeks I’d bring her in and brush her for awhile (she love, love, LOVES that!) And then I started taking her for walks out on the trails. Not long, not too far, but just enough to get her used to going out by herself. Then I’d do some showmanship stuff with her: walk, trot next to me; stop correctly when I stop; back (just two or three steps, because backing is hard on their hocks); pivot; circle.
I admit she was only 2 and a half when I started lounge/long rein training, and not much older when I first backed her, but she then went back out to field for a few months. But because of the ground work training, at just 3, you can take her for a trail ride by herself and run into anything you can imagine and never have a problem with her, and I know that no matter who handles her so the farrier can trim, or the dentist can see to her teeth, etc, she knows how to behave. And the best part of all that time spent just rubbing on her and feeding her carrots in the field? She will come when called when you go to catch her in the field, if she doesn’t mosy over to the gait automatically when she sees you.
Chico turned two three months ago. This spring I sort of casually started him on the lunge line just to teach him more manners and get the idea uf forward motion around me. He could only concentrate on lesson time for about ten minutes and then he obviously quit being there mentally. How can you get an 18 month old baby to pay attention long enough to learn anything intense?
Now he lunges (I know it is spelled wrong) for about 10-15min, maybe three circuts at a trot, but almost all walking and “Whoa.” I really want a superb whoa… I also have him ground driving really well. He wears a back pad/belly band and crupper, and I drive him in his halter. I would like to start him pulling light weights before Christmas but I don’t have a buggy so I have to figure out how…
Totally unrelated. My friend just got a free colt who is head shy but gets agressive about it, not just scared. Any ideas how to teach him to be not scared while also not getting arms bitten off?
After reading that article I don’t feel bad one bit for waiting to have 2 of my mares broke at ages 6. Sounds like my girls will be riding sound for a very long time
unlike that poor filly in the video. 
That poor horse is going to be dead lame and broken by the time it is 10 years old. It reminds me of a young horse I just rehomed. He had navicular disease in both front feet and will be chronically lame his entire life. He’s got holes in his navicular bones in both front feet. His breeding wasn’t the best (Impressive lines) but the vet said he was ridden too hard when he was young and that was the root of most of his problems. I found out the horse had been trained in reining as a two year old. I googled the trainer; I found nothing but AQHA and APHA show results for two year olds. Thankfully the new owner is working with her farrier and vet to keep him comfortable and sound.
I think I pissed her off when I commented that simply ‘posting’ does not make a horse ‘english’ on her youtube page….
Riding babies is my biggest problem with the racing industry. There is no excuse for anybody to ever sit on an 18 month old.. not even once.
“I do not accept any world in which hock injections are standard. That is ridiculous.”
I agree. So does our vet. She’s not afraid to tell an owner when their horse is being worked too young. Which is probably why all the big barns use the other vets in our area who just want to make the extra money.
We found out yesterday that my ‘stang’s right hock is very sore, just from being worn out. I know that this is from him being started early since his previous owners bragged “Oh, and they (previous previous owners) said they’d been roping off him since he was three!” I don’t doubt it. This horse has old rope burns on both right legs and scars from “being attacked by a bull”. One of the scars/rope burns is right over his hock. He has trouble cantring in cold weather now that he’s fifteen. I’m used to having horses go into their 30′s, and Cinco’s been “retired” at 15 b/c someone started him early. We’re gonna use him for trail rides and as a “husband horse” cause he’s that kind of a guy. On the flip side of the starting early, we are looking into restarting our 18 yo broodmare. She was headed for the track when something happened and she never made it. She was started slowly until a dutch warmblood judge saw her at a keuring and told her owner to breed her. Wish us luck, this is gonna be fun!
I was lucky as a teenager to have a neghbor who had horse’s and who didn’t mind me being with her horses all the time being as horse crazy as I am. She had trained a few of her own horses in her time and always taught me that you never start a young horse until the fall of it’s two year old year, give it a few months rest during the winter and start the trainiong again the spring of it’s 3 year old year.And no real riding until at least three years of age the way they used to do it like 30 years ago. She also had a mare that raced as a three year old in QH races, took a year off and then went on to earn her Superior in Western Pleasure back when they did not have to look as terrible as they do now. So what if they cantered faster than a walk – as long as the horse and rider were enjoying it – it was ok. They were collected back then – but not with their heads so low they would be kicking themselves. It was much more natural and enjoyable looking back then. They acually had to haul to multiple shows and maybe it took longer than a year to get the 50 pts for superiors – so what back then. Plus the show season at that time started with the Quarterama ever year in early spring and ended with the QH world in November. There was no shows for those 3-4 months in between. This was also a mare who also spent some time working on a cattle ranch, packing young kids around, being a lesson horse and also earned two rom’s in Hunt Seat by the time she stopped showing as a twelve year old. This mare also won her pleasure class at the Quarterama and the Congress in the same year and did go to the world back in the early 70′s but didn’t show (she had trailer accident and Kenya was not herself for a few days.). She was never pushed and never had arthritis problems as a 20 something year old. Never saw her take a bad step.
The lady must be out of her mind for starting a horse wwwwaaaayyyyyy too young. Those horses will be crippled for life eventually.
No double or triple judged shows back then either
heres a 2 year old pony jumping courses…idiots
http://www.horsetopia.com/for-sale/classifieds/ad439774
Well since this is the world I am living in right now as a PT student, I can say that this is FREAKING RIDICULOUS. Hello, go back to basic biochemistry and skeletal devolopment, tendons/ligaments/muscles should NEVER, under any circumstance, be stressed this much at such a young age! Jesus no wonder western horses always look lame to me, they all probably have messed up joint arthrokinematics from this ridiculousness. It’s the same reason why “elite” child athletes have so many problems as adults; there is a normal weight bearing pattern where joints come together, muscles create tension and develop optimal length/tension relationships, and skeletal anatomy adjusts accordingly. Mess with it at an early age and you get nothing but trouble down the road.
Uuuuuuuuggghghhhhhh. People are stupid.
Gosh, you mean you didn’t buy the owner’s comment about how all this weight on her filly’s back is really HELPING her and she thinks she has medical evidence to prove it?
It’s ok. Neither did I.
Of course, I have now heard from two more people who simply do not understand the elements of slander. Here is Amanda’s e-mail and my response:
— On Sat, 11/13/10, Amanda Winger wrote:
From: Amanda Winger
Subject: Fuglyblog.com
To: resqtb@yahoo.com
Date: Saturday, November 13, 2010, 6:00 PM
To Whoom This May Concern,
You will be hearing from my attorney for the current slander of Amanda Winger Performance Horses bussines on your website of Fuglyblog.com Please do not try contacting me through this email or my phone. Thank You
Amanda Winger
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are not being slandered. Your client proudly posted that video of you riding a poor little 18 month old filly, and I gave my Constitutionally protected opinion of that. It would be slander if I lied and you did not actually do such a thing but hey, we have it on video and no one has a gun to your head.
So feel free to call your lawyer. Go for it.
And by the way, I do not take orders from you.
Cathy
http://www.fuglyblog.com
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In retrospect, I typed too fast. It still would not be slander if she hadn’t done it and I were merely lying about it in an attempt to damage her somehow. It would be libel since it’s the written word. Sorry guys! It’s time to go have a drink now.
P.S. Are you smart enough to have a business if you can’t spell business?
Cathy Its already being handled darling! Grow up!! See you around!!
Way too early in the morning and I just about peed when you put that cause it was the first thing I noticed about her email…. And Slander is incredibly hard to prove. She would actually have to prove a loss of income because of your actions and like I said that’s really hard to do. Even if she did she would most likely only be compensated what her loss was.
Hahaha! You would think that if you were going to write a threatening, legal-sounding cease-and-desist letter to someone, you could at least spell “whom” correctly! I always get a kick out of the mouth-breathers that misspell four letter words. That cracks me up! Thank you for posting that, and also the crazy caps-lock misspelled rant below. I’ve been having a really tough month after putting my 13 year-old cat to sleep (after dealing with hyperthyroidism, irritable bowel disease, and kidney disease for a few years her kidneys finally failed) and having a few horse related injuries that are keeping me from riding, and reading this made me laugh my pants off.
On another note, my main riding horse is 20 years old and going strong. He was raced, but from the records I can find he wasn’t raced until he was a solid 3, which means he got a little extra time to mature. He was a polo horse that sometimes did some 3-day events as well. He played hard until last year, when I bought him and retired him. Now we are going to our first dressage show this winter
. My other horse is 22, raced at 3 again for a few races, then changed careers to polo for 19 years. I got her this summer, and she’s starting to slow down and has very minor arthritis in one hock. She’s on a joint supplement and perfectly sound for pleasure and trail riding. I really lucked out with them.
Bahahahahha!!! Cathy, you are just too much!
*whom
*business
“Whoom” makes me think of the old Batman show with Adam West. lol. Maybe the sound of her getting her butt out of the saddle?
*shame* That was rude and inappropriate. Better than what I was thinking tho!
THIS IS ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING AND INSULTING TO MY CLIENTS AND BARN!!! I HAVE SEVERAL SENIOR HORSES IN MY BARN SUCH AS SHAMELESS ZIPPER, HESA RIPPIN JOSE, are just a couple TO NAME THAT BOTH HAVE BEEN SHOWN SINCE YOUNGER THEN 2 also and they are both sound and healthy and super fun show horses.
and the fact that you are actually trashing another horse persons barn, horse, business is terribly scary and makes me wonder the type of people you really are, THE Things that are being said and you all think its fun to SLANDER SOMEONES BUSINESS AND INCOME!!!
I know its easy to sit behind a COMPUTER AND TYPE ALL DAY AND HIDE AND USE this forum BUT THIS RIGHT HERE trashing a young persons accomplishments, someone who has WORKED THIER BUTT OFF FOR WHAT THEY HAVE WON and worked for what they do daily, WILL NOT MAKE YOU A BETTER PERSON, RIDER, TRAINER. SHAME ON YOU FOR MAKING FUN OF SOMEONE FOR BEING OVER WEIGHT!!! Your only hurting yourself because i still am i great rider and i still do a great job and my clients are very happy!!! TO ANSWER SEVERAL EMAILS!! YES that filly had only 2 rides, thats your issue if you cant believe it, she has only had 5 rides total, she turns 2 jan 1st, that video wasnt posted to be critiqued GET A JOB! GEt your own horse to complain about!
To the people who emaild and said sorry and had nice things to say thank you..
I love it when people deteriorate into all caps, spelling that makes them look like they flunked out of a GED program, and horrible grammar right off the bat.
“i am great rider” — Seriously, you really just posted that?
Keep it up — it is apparent your writing skills are as poor as your judgment about what age is appropriate to begin riding a horse. At this point, you are amusing to me and I’m sure many of my readers feel the same!
I’m certainly amused. The quality of riding in that video makes ME look like a good rider, and I know I’m not.
The WHOLE point is that whether or not the horse had had one or twenty one rides is irrelevant.
You should not be riding a long yearling.
She was actually born on Jan 1st?? How very convenient.
I surmise that she was born in April/May but, as per the rules of most societies officially turns two on Jan 1st?
So she is actually 18 months now??
A long yearling, in fact. Who should be out in the field playing, not being lumped around with someone who, by general opinion as I can no longer see this video, was too heavy for her??
And you call yourself a trainer??
For every horse that has been kept sound by the miracles of Veterinary science, there are twenty possibly more who are standing hunched up and crippled in someones back yard, churning out babies. Or waiting for the knife.
What you are doing is equal to the soring of TWHs, who are also ridden and crippled at a ridiculously young age, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Were you to be stupid enough to bring a court case (and I am not sure you would find a good lawyer who would take such a case) you should get a few facts straight.
Were it be such, it would be “libel”, not slander.
It was YOU who bragged about riding a long yearling on YouTube.
You really do not get to scream “foul” when your own stupidity comes back and bites you, it does not work that way.
Cathy would not be fighting any stupid law suit (and many before you have threatened and then disappeared) without financial back up from her cyber friends, I can assure you.
Most of what is written on here is not actually written by Cathy, so if you want to sue us all- good luck to you, as we are scattered around the world and, although I know this will come as a shock to you, we do not actually recognise American law here!
As I’ve noted before, I would welcome any lawsuit as a golden opportunity to publicize whatever bad behavior in the horse world necessitated the original blog. Deposing hot-tempered, reactive people is highly entertaining, not to mention extremely productive! And oh the look on their faces when they discover they actually DO have to produce their financial records if they are arguing economic damages…or that my vet will be coming by to x-ray that filly and they’re going to have to allow that, too…I just love litigation.
As a side note, why is there 1 cat lying on my arms as I try to type this and another cat next to the keyboard with a kitten on his head? Dear rescue cats, it is not THAT tiny of a place…there are other places you could sleep!
If only all things were as easy to answer as “why do I have three cats sitting on me” ?
The answer is because you are sitting at the computer instead of doing something more useful, such as:
a) feeding the cat
b) playing with the cat
c) cleaning out the cat’s dirt box
d) feeding the cat again….
Also, I believe it has to do with the laptop being a heat source
Laptops for cat owners should emit icy rays!
You know what they say: Cats can’t read, and so neither should you
LOVE IT!
Amanda Winger says:
“I HAVE SEVERAL SENIOR HORSES IN MY BARN SUCH AS SHAMELESS ZIPPER, HESA RIPPIN JOSE, are just a couple TO NAME THAT BOTH HAVE BEEN SHOWN SINCE YOUNGER THEN 2 also and they are both sound and healthy and super fun show horses.”
Sweetheart, you were on youtube riding a yearling. I’m not convinced you know what a sound horse is.
Hey, how’s it goin’. I’m anonymously replying to you from the safety of behind my computer. I weigh 225 and I’m an amateur dressage rider and I know I’m too big to ride an 18 month old horse. I actually turned down getting an awesome pony for my kids because I am too big to hop on said pony and school it as necessary.
Calm down, breathe a few times and reread. Your facility wasn’t trashed, you were named as trainer and your facility was named. The OWNER of this horse was somewhat flamed for allowing this to occur. OMG. If you feel that there’s nothing wrong with riding an 18 month old horse – which is the only thing you’re really under fire for on the actual blog – then what are you so wound up about? If you believe in something enough to DO it you need to believe in it enough to be able to let criticism roll off your back. Replying in all caps and mispellings doesn’t help you at all. When people tell me Pit Bulls suck I try to educate them – yelling at them just makes me look like an aggressive idiot.
I went to your web site all by myself. Because, you know, I’m all smart and stuff and I know how to use the Googles on the Interwebz. And I looked at your pictures (from your links) and saw a bunch of horses in good weight with shiny coats with nice feet that had huge asses, no topline wearing gadgets attached from the reins to the girth. Then, all by myself, because I know what a “fit” horse looks like, because I see them every day, I decided that I personally have the opinion that I would not use you as a trainer if the need ever arose because I feel your training would be inadequate for what I wanted.
So a bunch of people on here decided your training methods aren’t their cup of tea. Get over it and add us to your lawsuit. Have your lawyer call me. I love it when people try to trample on my constitutional rights.
Oh, I love it when experience, wit, and sarcasm are are used to cut through bullshit like a sword through soft butter (I was going to say lard, but that might be inflammatory). Sadly, your witticisms were probably missed by Miss All-Caps, who I suspect lacks the linguistic skill of subtlety, just as she lacks the ability to tell the difference between an 18 month old horse and a 30 month old horse. I also enjoyed Fug’s educational piece on the joys of litigation. It’s been very entertaining.
I bet those horses that were named as senior show horses were the lucky 1% out of the bucket loads that were sent to slaughter because they were rooted. How old are they? 10? 12? Many top Warmbloods compete well into their twenties.
Honestly lady, tell us how man horses you started that young made it to ten?
I’d love to see the numbers, bet you could count them out on your own two hands.
English. Learn it. You are not helping yourself.
Enjoy destroying your filly
I’m sure she really appreciates it.
Oh my word, only two rides before the age of 2, and that’s your defense? She should have NEVER been ridden before the age of 2, you idiot. That’s the point of this, it doesn’t matter how many times you rode a yearling, YOU RODE A FUCKING YEARLING.
There, did it make more sense to you if I write like you do? Allow I find I least ‘shout’ relevant parts, rather than random parts of my text as you did.
I think any loss of business you have following this is deserved, you are an idiot who rides babies. Your clients need to know that, if they are fine with your cruel training methods, they’ll still give you money, but they should have the chance to say no, and shun you for your inability to see what is so wrong with riding babies. It’s the fact that you cannot comprehend what is wrong that is the problem.
And as for ‘GEt your own horse to complain about!’ (quote as typed by yourself) – I have 2 horses, one is a 3 year old who will turn 4 next year. Guess what? He’s never been ridden. I had planned to back him this year, he wasn’t ready, he’ll be backed next year. He’s had everything else done. But I’d rather a safe and sane horse than literally breaking him. And – I’ve owned this boy since he was a yearling, and never had the urge to plank my ass on him when I got him.
Finally – as for being made fun of because you are overweight, I think once again you have missed the point. No one should be riding a yearling. This is extra important when the person who shouldn’t be riding a yearling is also fat. But even the thinnest person you can find shouldn’t be on that yearling. Now, that’s not a OMG you are so fucking fat get your ass off the horse, it’s OMG you are such a fucking idiot, get your ass off the horse.
For the record, I’m overweight – I’m not making fun of your weight, I’m just pointing out that you are a moron.
Well, Ms. Winger, rest assured that even if Fugly had not put the video here on this blog so that everyone could discuss what the appropriate age to start a horse is, I for one would probably never have come to you for your “training” services. Call me crazy, but I tend to think that any horse person who knowingly breaks a yearling, is not a horseperson at all. What you are is rather ignorant and, I might add, incredibly touchy about your weight. I don’t think anyone here has said anything negative about your weight, just that you are too big to be riding a horse that filly’s size, age aside. I’m not too tall and relatively slender, but I certainly would not climb onto a small pony’s back, for example, because I would be too heavy for it. We’re all too big for SOMEthing. So either go on a diet and feel better about yourself, or put on the big girl panties.
(Oh, and what’s your lawyer’s name? Just so I NEVER pay for his or her services. Slander is not the same as libel, and even if you were talking about libel, it takes a pretty bad lawyer to act like there might actually be a case here. Just sayin’.)
Hello hello all my fugly friends! I’m a long time reader first time poster. But, let me say this… there is crap going down over at the Hajinc forums. Some person dared to criticize Ellie’s treatment of her horse… and well guess what they got the banhammer. As well as all the other posts she deleted about the subject… wow, can anyone say censorship? And that thing about suing you for slander is silly when you are telling the truth. I did play her game rather frequently… but you know, I think I might cancel my subscription if she is going to act like this and treat a poor little filly that way and not listen to reason.
There are some misconceptions here I’d like to address before they get passed around too far.
“Some person dared to criticize Ellie’s treatment of her horse… and well guess what they got the banhammer”
This is an incorrect assumption. They did not get “the banhammer” for having a different opinion and/or questioning training philosophy. They didn’t even get infractions for that. They got infracted for being openly and unquestionably hostile/disrespectful *and* for vowing to continue the behavior. If they were going to get banned from the criticism, it would have happened instantly.
“As well as all the other posts she deleted about the subject… wow, can anyone say censorship? ” – Yes, but I can say “jumping to conclusions” even better!
That’s not why or how they got deleted.
First of all, Ellie didn’t delete a single thing. I did. Without her permission, without her knowledge. She was not online when I did so, I had no chance to ask her, and there was an obvious need for *something* to be done. So I made the choice to take action. If you are unhappy with that, it’s me you need to be unhappy with. And for what it’s worth, I got a scolding for it too.
I took such drastic steps at multiple requests from other players. If you saw the whole thread, you saw several people saying “this thread needs to be locked”. That was not the limit of the complaints. My mailbox exploded with people complaining about that person and her comments. As far as I can tell, people were logging in, reading the thread, and firing off complaints, there was about ten minutes when by the time I read one, two more had appeared. That’s why I zapped it, I realized I had seen a complaint, either public or private, from every single person that was logged on at that time – over 20 of them! – and that is just over the top. I saw no reason to leave it there to continue to annoy more and more people.
Those messages included comments like “out of line”, “rude”, “obvious troll”, “pure bully”, and most importantly, “I don’t come here for stupid drama like this”, along with several less polite words and phrases. People were getting *hot*. And it was more over her “I will not be silenced!” than the orig. post. Not that the original post failed to annoy people as well.
That was certainly the comment which sealed my opinion. This sounded like someone who had every intention of ranting on and on until either she bullied people into agreeing with her or until we got rid of her. As a mod, it was that comment that was the last straw to me, I felt she may as well have said “I will not be bothered with the rules that everyone is supposed to follow here.” But even that comment wasn’t the biggest factor in what got her banned.
The bottom line is that she got voted off the island. The fact she didn’t get banned right off I would think would be some evidence that it wasn’t anyone’s first choice. We could have kicked her the second she made the initial post and we didn’t. There were three of us online at the time she posted who had the ability. None of us felt it was warranted at the time. There were multiple posts by multiple mods, and Ellie too, in between the time of the initial criticism and the banning. That wouldn’t have happened if the banning was out of anger over a criticism. There was no need or foreseeable benefit in waiting.
Plenty of people spoke up against her in varying degrees, plenty of people were not happy with the attitude she displayed. And that’s what it came down to, there were just too many people that felt her attitude was detrimental to the atmosphere of the forum and made it known.
That forum has never, and will never, welcome drama. If people want to flat out refuse to try to speak in drama-free tones, it’s not the place for them. Everyone screws up now and again, the whole point of the infraction system is to let people know where they crossed the line so they can back up a step and rethink things. I’ve gotten quite the collection of infractions myself because the rules apply to me too and I can get careless just like anyone else. I’ve even gotten a few suspensions, and that was as a mod! But when you are told you crossed a line and your response is to screech that you don’t care….well… ~shrug~ I find it hard to believe she honestly expected everyone to be cool with that.
It was never about what was said, it was all about *how*. In other places the how may not matter so much. But it does there. It’s the “how” that the other players complained about, and in the end, it’s the “how” that got her banned.
If there was a “disagree and get banned” rule there, I think it would certainly be to Ellie’s benefit to ban the offenders and delete the posts before anyone ever saw them so no hint of discontent ever got out. It would certainly have made anyone going elsewhere to “out” the disagreement and/or banning a bit more challenging if they were banned before they had time to copy anything like links. Leaving them with no proof at all would be a far better way to do that.
Then again, if there was a “disagree and get banned” rule there, *I* wouldn’t be there either. I probably wouldn’t have made the first month.
I can’t count how many times I’ve gotten into a disagreement with Ellie myself. Like, ok, my thing is long distance trail riding on gaited horses, many of which have a head carriage only slightly higher than the average giraffe and think “slow down” means “keep it under 10 mph please”. Anyone want to take a guess what I think of western pleasure horses, the dangly heads, and their tippy toe “takes two hours to do 50 feet” jog?
They look about as useful as tits on a bull to me. And yes, Ellie and have gotten into “enthusiastic discussions” on the topic. Hell, if we go a solid week without a fight, it’s because someone doesn’t have an internet connection. And I’m a freakin’ mod. And I was fighting with her *before* she made me a mod too.
I hope that helps a bit. I hope even more that it doesn’t make things worse in ways I’m not smart enough to anticipate.
Fugly, I apologize for kinda hijacking the thread, but I wanted to make sure the truth behind the banning was out since the topic came up since I’m quite sure there are several other people out there with different guesses as to the why.
Anyone who owns a forum can ban whoever they like. It is their party and they have the right to eject any guest they are unhappy with. You’ll note I didn’t comment on that, because it was entirely irrelevant.
However, it is a fact that it is not just one person who brought this to my attention. I got a couple of e-mails about this bragging about the 18 month old being ridden. I don’t run around the Internet looking for material: most of it comes to my in-box and that was the case here.
Supine, that is how it has ALWAYS been on that forum. People would disappear without so much as a whisper. Most of it was for blatantly disagreeing with Ellie herself. If you do decide to play a different game, there are nice ones out there. Horse Eden is one of them. There’s also Horseland, but I never got into that one much and I’ve heard it’s changed for the worse.
As a note to the yearling. Ellie has owned her for a few months I think, and thinks she’ll make it to worlds, etc. She’s cute, but started far too early. I don’t believe in breaking anything before 3 since there has been scientific data proving their joints have not fully fused before then. I’ve actually heard of people x-raying the joints to be sure they are ready for the stress of riding. While that may be a stretch for a lot of people to do, it is good to make sure the horse is physically ready.
And, as another note on the owner. She rarely actually rides the horses anyway. She’s had 4 to date that I know of, and barely rides any of them. She prefers being just the owner and grooming them once in a while as opposed to actually getting in the saddle and riding them.
Here’s a hint:
If you need to X-ray to find out if your horse is ready to be ridden, the chances are it is not.
Wait another year, it’s cheaper all round.
Kirri,
These horses that I’m talking about were at minimum of 3. The owners were THAT petrified they would injure them that they had the joints x-ray. I’m FULLY against full training, or even breaking till 3 years old. Only horse that was “broke” young was the 2 year old (late 2 year old) that was 18 hands and knew EXACTLY how big he was. But he was “broke” walked, did steering, and long lining. He sat all winter long without a rider, and was “restarted” as a 3 year old. He was taught how big he was by an idiot, and could be a danger to anyone. That would be the only horse I’ve ever sat on before they were 3, and it truly wasn’t much.
Well, I’m gone for good and I’m never coming back. Though…. I do worry about that poor filly, she is pretty and it will be quite a shame when she is destroyed by this. Sigh… the worst thing about stupid people is that they never seem to learn much from their actions.
Join ponyisland.net instead – you can breed unicorns and make real USD by selling stuff on it, it is a pay to play game, but yeah, very addictive, not realistic – but I played realistic sims for years and this one has me hooked completely, I think I sold my soul when I joined… So yeah, stop supporting cruel trainers, come join the legion of fantasy pony lovers
Where the genetics are immense and you’ll have great fun planning babies to breed 
I even sell some ponies I’ve bred for USD 
THIS MAKES ME SICK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH4uZHps3MM&feature=related
The video got removed.
That was fast.
OT: Okay, I don’t have a trainer or friends with horses so I figured it wouldn’t hurt asking a few questions here.
My horse, Cody, is the most tender-footed horse I have ever had. Every winter we take his shoes off and he has a hard time walking but eventually toughens up and is okay, but still struggles on surfaces like gravel until he’s shod. He’s only 13 this year and we took his shoes off about two weeks ago. Just yesterday my Mom went to feed him and saw that he hadn’t eaten his food the night before, was lethargic, and refused to walk (was standing). Immediately she had the vet come on an emergency call that morning just in case it was colic. The vet said that if Cody was colicking(sp?) it had passed, but his front feet both had a pulse which meant blood was being pushed to those feet more than usual. He gave Cody styrofoam shoes covered in vet wrap and duck tape and said to keep those on for five days to see how he does. The vet said, but wasn’t diagnosing, that it could be the beginning stages of laminitis(sp?), which scares me to death.
I was told of a couple of things that cause laminitis(sp?) such as: too much green grass in the spring, and too much grain. But none of these apply to Cody’s situation. So I was hoping if anyone could tell me what other causes of laminitis(sp?) are there? Is it normal for a horse to be that tender footed? Is laminitis(sp?) unrelated to shoeing? If not should we put shoes back on him and just pick out his feet twice(it snows here) a day? If he does have laminitis(sp?) how should I prepare for our future riding experiences? I’ve never had a horse with lameness issues so I’m not sure
how to go about it. Any answers would be appreciated. In the mean time I’ll look at other sources. Thanks!
That’s a few questions:
Other causes of laminitis:
- Carbohydrate overload – over-eating of grain
- Consuming too much fast growing, lush grass in the spring and fall
- Retaining placenta infection that follows failure to expel the afterbirth within a few hours of foaling
- Mechanical damage to the feet from excessive concussion on hard surfaces
- Metabolic stress such as becoming overheated
- Ingestion of Black Walnut shavings
- Hormone related changes due to Cushings disease
- Drug induced Laminitis from using corticosteroids
- Any serious illness may lead to laminitis
( from The Animal Health Foundation There’s a lot of good info there.)
No, that’s not normal.
I don’t think pulling a otherwise healthy horse’s shoes would cause laminitis, but IANAV.
Ask your vet. I’ve got an ancient pony at home who went back to jumping after foundering.
Pulling an otherwise healthy horse’s shoes may cause temporary discomfort that looks like laminitis. I pulled the VLC’s shoes in October and OMG, he had everybody at the barn convinced he was miserable, dying and needed to have shoes put back on ASAP. I held my ground, just got him some Cavallo boots for turnout and yeah, within weeks he was fine.
Cathy, I have a question. Why do you remove the shoes in winter? Especially if it causes discomfort for a few weeks?
I have three horses, two with shoes on the front. This is only our second winter with them… so I’m asking out of complete curiosity. We get a fair amount of snow and ice here, as well we are on gravel roads if we take them off property for a ride. We leave the shoes on, and the farrier puts small studs in them to help with traction.
I pulled the shoes because in general I keep my horses barefoot. He had shoes for the show season, but he has a tendon injury and is just resting right now, so there wasn’t any point to keeping them on. Overall I think it’s much better for horses to be barefoot at least part of any year so that their feet have a chance to grow as nature intended.
Oh, and he’s not in a snowy climate nor will he ever be, so it is totally different when you have snow and ice to contend with – although growing up in the Midwest, I found they did better barefoot as snow/ice packed into their shoes and made frozen balls they had to walk on otherwise. You could, of course, avoid that with pads.
That definitely sounds like Cody! That could be it, because with those styrofoam shoes he’s doing much better now, such as eating and according to my Mom he’s even running a bit. My Mom is still keeping a watch out on him and if he’s feeling down again we’ll ask the vet more questions. But if he’s not showing any other signs of pain I think he should be fine!
Thanks so much for the information! That’s pretty much what I learned last night when looking at the internet. I’ll keep reading on that link though because it has great info there!
Just as an FYI, to save videos that may be removed when criticized, one can use Keepvid to save a copy. It’s at http://www.keepvid.com and will save videos from youtube. You could then repost said video back to youtube if so desired.
As always, impotent lawyer threats are amusing. There’s got to be a genetic formula that couples the inability to spell/write coherently with the increasing chance that criticism will be met with threats of lawsuits that have zero basis.
We took a web hacking class as part of my husband’s deployment security and we were actually shown how to access the cache and look at the previous versions of a web site. Does that not work for media sites like YouTube?
Chevaliers – If your horse is tender (and can’t walk!) when his shoes are removed that is a trim/farrier problem. His soles are thin and flat! You should look up Pete Ramey and his book, “Making Natural Hoof Care Work for You”. http://www.star-ridge.com has it and sometimes lower cost “damaged” copies. Also look at Swedish Hoof School and their videos on youtube. Just like farriers don’t trim the same, not all barefoot trimmers trim the same. Since I had my six horses go barefoot I was using a Natural Balance trimmer on three and a “Pete Ramey style” barefoot trimmer on the other three. Three with the NB trimmer kept having abscesses, he said was all the rain, wet and mud. But the other three never had. I have changed them all to the barefoot trimmer and now their soles are thicking and everything looks so much better, no abscesses. (PS I do not think it was the NB style but the trimmer) It does not happen overnight – taken over a year with my main trail horse – that is how long it takes for a total new hoof to grow and start to correct itself. Yes I have hoof boots (front only) but now very, very rarely use them. I am lucky in that mine have over a hundred acres to run – so they get loads of movement for healthy blood flow to the hooves and I only feed grain as a treat and try to only use a grass hay when needed. Also my trimmer only charges the same as what the farriers charge for shoes. If the “mustang roll” is done correctly, believe me, that even after six weeks and miles on rocky TN trails, my mare’s hooves look just like the week she was trimmed with no chips or breaks. Yes I have been totally converted and it started with an old mare with navicular that the Vet had me put in navicular egg bar shoes. After contracted heels and trush and an unhappy, in pain mare, I went opposite from the Vet’s advice and pulled those shoes and went with a barefoot trim. She sure looks a lot happier today!
I used to pull the shoes on navicular horses, put them on 24/7 turnout and shoot them up with Adequan in the early 1990s and everybody thought I was nuts until they noticed it kept working.
That was the era of the egg bar shoe and pad being the ONLY navicular solution.
And yeah, you always saw the contracted heels as a result – and I had one that had such a bad case of thrush UNDER the pad that one moron vet suggested he be euthed, saying he was that lame because of the navicular! BOY am I glad I pulled the shoes…and it really was nothing more than just my thinking, well, let’s try this one more thing before we put him down. He was back playing polo in 3 weeks.
Thanks so much for the information! All of you have been very helpful!
I’ve never even considered that my horse was sore because of a bad farrier. We always have chalked it up to the fact that’s he’s just tender footed. I don’t think I’ve ever considered even taking shoes off of him permanently, and in fact in my first post I was asking whether or not to put shoes back on him. I’m really interested now in this bare-foot trimming technique. I’ll research that website and hopefully I’ll be able to find a farrier that can do it!
OK so didnt read all the comments so hope this dosnt repeat anything.
I live in the south end of the globe. But was born in the USA. I go back there from time to time to ride. I hate the equestrian culture that i see over there. Sorry i know this isnt everybody. But your horses have soooo many issues!! down here you cannot compete horses under saddle until they are at least three years old.
No one has joint injections. our horses are all paddocked as are 90% of the horses in the country. The main thing that i see in USA is that lots of rich owners have nothing to do with their horses, also have no horse knowledge. They put pressure on trainers who want money. Lots of the trainers have no real knowledge outside a show barn.
hugely frustrating situation. Here any horse trainers usally also are farmers or come from farming background. we have a lot of common sense when it comes to animals. Not many people here would be dumb enough to break in horses under two its just ridiculous. makes me so angyr.
ive been to germany as well and seen somw preety bad horsemanship as well as some amazing horsemanship. But at least even there i never saw horses under 2 ridden! makes me so mad.
dont get me started on QH that are good for nothing but halter either!! what the hell breeding a working horse so it cant actually work cos it so muscle bound so it looks good it the showring makes my blood boil too.
*like*
Where we board, the BO’S daughter and a couple of her friends picked up a couple two year olds and took them to a horse training academy, where they rode these two year olds, did sliding stops on them, took them on trail rides, etc. I tried my best to make comments against riding them, saying they were just babies, and the ignoramuses would say the girls riding them were just skinny (actually they were adult women) and they pointed`out how thoroughbreds get raced at 2. Now, they have a new boarder, a girl whose only 18, with a Fjord cross, who said she has also sat on the filly. I’m doing my best to convince her that being part Fjord, it’s a slow maturing horse, and she needs to wait at least another year, if not two (not to mention how ridiculous it must look to have this tall girl sitting on a tiny horse)….I’m doing my best to try to educate her…sigh!!!! but I think it will be a losing battle!
I really try (OK, I don’t succeed very well with situations such as this poor filly, but I do try!) to be open minded about other ways of doing things. I ride English, with hopes of doing some lower-level eventing with my 6 year old TB mare and some day with my 3 year old pony mare. I have only started two horses myself, as 3 year olds (people pushed me to start my pony before, but why take the risk?) and although I wouldn’t want any of mine to be started earlier (didn’t have the choice for my poor racetrack reject) I am willing to read and consider studies saying that starting horses earlier is alright.
But, there’s something I’ve noticed since I no longer have any affiliation with the QH world (I learned to ride on nice old QH’s in CA, at a show barn.) I sometimes have the opportunity to go to Saumur, for example, to see CSI***, so eventing at quite a high level, and there are often horses that are 13, 14, 15… one of the French Olympic horses a few years ago was 17 years old ago, which is not uncommon in eventing. Now, eventing is a tough sport: those jumps could eat a horse whole, and the horses have to be FIT.
Comparatively, I don’t think I’ve EVER seen a 17 year old in a WP class. And how old are reining horses? My Mom’s old QH mare that was trained at the show barn where I learned to ride was put down at, let’s see, 19 I believe, after 4 or 5 years of retirement… she wasn’t even sound enough to be ridden on a short trail ride by a light-weight anymore. And she was started relatively late for a QH… my grandparents bred her, and my grandmother doesn’t believe in starting them as 2 year olds.
So, people in the QH world today, I want to know. Are QH’s today poorly bred, and so they just can’t hold up, no matter when they are backed and ridden, or would letting them finish growing let them keep working like the TB’s and WB’s in the eventing world, who injury not withstanding, can keep going well into their teens? Or is it simply a question of training methods? I know of several ex-racers, so obviously started at 2 or even before, that are still going strong in their teens, and they are used in hunter/jumpers and eventing, or as lesson horses.
Just to note: I know that many eventing horses are injured and their careers are ended. And there are certainly plenty of asshats in eventing, too, just like in any discipline, unfortunately. But why such a difference in riding longevity as far as soundness is concerned?
Your observation is absolutely accurate. I have seen a couple of oldsters still showing AQHA but only one that has done so his entire life. The ones I have seen were rescued after lives spent performing other jobs.
Whereas it is extremely common for a 15+ horse in the dressage world to just be peaking. But you will never find a single quality dressage barn where they ride 18 month olds. I’ve NEVER seen it. Not once.
My Appendix AQHA 7 yr old gelding was not started under saddle until this year. He wasn’t ready mentally until he was 5. He would blow up every time a saddle was put on him like a rodeo bronc. He was started on a lunge line, saddled and bridled stating at 2 1/2 but not asked to lope or even trot hard. Everything was introduced slowly and carefully. I opted to let him tell me when he was ready. He turned 5 and showed me dramatic changes in his mentality. Unfortunately, my health had serious issues by then. Physically, I believe he is in great shape because I waited so long. Mentally, he accepts everything without fuss. I am a firm believer in starting as late as possible. I believe they will live a longer, better, healthier life as a result.
This gelding was also registered with the Illinois AQHA 3 yr old Racing Futurities. I opted out of them. I can’t even fathom what could have happened to his body and mind if I had raced him.
I can’t imagine bragging about how well my yearling is going under saddle! I have started many 2-year olds under saddle and will continue to do so BUT there are rules that accompany this. The horse always has free turnout to run, play and naturally develop bone density and muscle tone on its own. I have a hilly paddock just for this chore. I am small and only get on the horse once it fully understands whoa, move your hip, move your shoulders, back from snaffle, bosal or halter pressure and forward with cluck for trot, kiss for lope. Initial lunging sessions are 10 minutes of walk, trot, turn only. Loping isn’t until several weeks later and even then I lope for 2-3 circles each way just to give them the idea, not the stress. Riding is repeating ground lessons with focus on body control – hip, shoulder, bending and patience, consistency. I ride around the property, go get the mail, intro to scary things anonymous and eventually graduate to hour long trail walks with a seasoned horse. I teach them to tie quietly, bathe, clip & load. At no time do I ask them to rock back onto their hocks, I leave them loose and concentrate on teaching balance and smoothness at the lope. I also don’t lope them for more than 3 or 4 minutes, tops. In the winter, the babies are not worked but turned out daily to let nature continue normal development. I think one of the saddest things is a baby in a stall 22 hours a day with an hour turnout if it’s lucky and an hour of spur, spur, pull, pull. Bones, muscles, tendons and ligaments do not develop normally in a stall. Add the stress of training and there is bound to be a breakdown somewhere. Horses need to be horses, let them outside!
But this begs the question “Why on earth would you do that instead of waiting, as all sane people do, until they are three?”
Here in Europe, as has been mentioned, there are no under saddle classes for anything under four. No horse, in fact, is allowed to be ridden on any show ground, that is under four years old.
I am certain that, were there to be classes offered for two year olds, there would be no shortage of idiots like you who would jump on the bandwagon and try to justify doing what they know is wrong!
So I just thank my lucky stars that no-one offers these classes.
This is one thing we have got right!
I agree. That is definitely something Europe has gotten right!
Now if we can just get the Europeans to stop EATING the horses we’ll be doing really good…lol
100 day stallion tests in Europe are brutal even if they arent ridden they jump the ##$$ out of them and many break down. This happens when they are still pretty young.
Nice attempt at justification. Sadly, your argumentation does not convince me.
It is NOT ok to ride a Two-year-Old, just because you “let them be horses” and they get to go out to pasture.
Just because the horses you rode were 6 months older than the horse in the video we are discussing, does not put you in a different class. In fact, hop right into the boat that Winger trainer sheila is sitting in, you are no different. How do you know she doesn’t turn her horses out anyways? From what I can see on her website, she has pastures with horses in them, too.
Sorry, I forget to ask, how old do your horses get on average?
My QH stallion was started at 2, shown at 3, 4, 5, then retired & purchased by me at 15 & stayed sound until he died of a stroke at 26. Some arthritis in his hips which is typical in an older stallion. I stopped seriously riding him at 20 or 21 due to a heart murmur. He could still do 2-tempes (a bulldog QH) at 25, was on no injections or pain killers and live covered his last mare at 24. When bred to my now 25 yr old QH mare, who is a retired reiner and ridden almost daily now on tough trails, I raised 3 fillies, all started at 2. The 11 year old is sound as a dollar, still owned by me, and a rock solid little hot-rod trail horse. Her full sister, now 9, is a family trail horse & shown by their daughters in Open HUS a few times a year. Their full sister, now 7, has been 3-day eventing for 2 years until a recent suspensory pull. She is expected to go back to training shortly. I have a 3 yr old half brother, 100% sound, a 10-yr old APHA mare that I just started jumping that I’ve shown lightly in Open WP and earns her keep as the love of my life trail horse. She can execute western saddle / western rider canter pirouettes, nearly lope in place and I’m teaching her flying changes. I’ve trained a WP / HUS Paint gelding that just sold for $5500 and is 7 yrs. I didn’t start him but finished him at 3 & tuned him at 4. He was Champion or Reserve at Open shows in WP. That’s the best he could do, he didn’t trope so he wasn’t going to make it in Breed. I also won’t trope a horse for any reason. He had lousy, straight, halter hocks but was a good looking son of a gun. He should’ve broken down on conformation alone and I know his previous trainer rode him hard at 2. I don’t use painkillers, inject joints or any of that crap.
I would assume by your tone that you ride either TB’s or WB’s. Not all horses are created equally or can tolerate the same type of riding based on their conformation and growth rate. I will never start a yearling and feel that all 2-yr old competition should be stopped. But for you to say that I’ve ruining horses without knowing any facts is ludicrous. If people choose to wait until a horse is 3 to ride, there’s nothing wrong with that. I would never continue doing what I do if horses were suffering for my actions. But I do abhor people who lock horses in a stall 22-23 hours a day, ride the crap out of them for an hour or more, and then stuff them back in a stall. As a grazing animal, they are designed to move freely all the time. Case in point, Barbaro. His injury didn’t kill him, lack of movement & additional weight on his front legs did. I wonder if he would’ve survived if they’d erred on the side of over-exercise vs keeping him confined.
I don’t have a problem with getting on a mentally mature late two-year-old (Nov or Dec) as long as it is only the very basic walk/trot/canter for a week and then turning it back out for 6 months to a year. I am also very tiny. I do have a problem with this if the two-year-old is a very late baby or he is mentally immature and starting him requires a lot of work. If I sit on a late two-year-old, it is for LITERALLY five to eight minutes once a day for about a week. In Arabs, this is usually how the futurity horses are started. If they will compete in the National futurity classes they are usually then turned out until after regionals and then brought back in to prep for Nationals in October. After Nationals they are turned back out again. We also don’t expect the futurity horses to have perfect manners; they are being judged on potential. I do know many futurity horse who then go on to Junior horse, Open, amateur 18-39, amateur 40 and over, amateur, 55 and over, junior to ride, and finally walk/trot (in that order).
The whole Barbaro travesty was a fiasco. He should have been euthed at the track. There is not a single person who took care of that horse day to day (nursing staff) that felt he was being treated fairly by being kept alive. With that said, he did not develop laminitis as a result of being confined, but rather as a result of load-bearing on three legs for a year. I like for my show horses to get some turn out all year, but the reality is that turn out is not always an option. In those cases, I find that the hot walker is the next best thing, as well as free time in the arena with wraps and bell boots… and I am the master at keeping show horses sound and recovering them from previous injury.
I ride a QH-bred Pinto mare without any real papers because her mommy is an unknown from the sales.
I must admit, daddy has about 1/4 TB.
I also recently upgraded a TB, but only sat on it once because it’s till gaining wait.
Before that, I rode a 17 hh STB. Before that, I admit, I rode OTTB’s. Before that, I rode a QH-bred Ex-Polo Pony, Haflingers, Fjords, Icelandics and the likes while I was in Germany. Maybe there was a WB in there somewhere, not regularly though.
I still don’t agree with starting horses before they are at least three. All horse I have ridden that were started before three (including my now 6 YO Pinto-Mare) had bowed tendons, many had bone chips. I don’t even KNOW a horse that was started before 3 that stayed sound without major vet interference (treating rooted tendons, removing chips, injections and what-not).
So, according to my experiances I will never approve. Mind you, even QH that were broken late often have many soundness issues at a young age. Maybe ppl are just breeding for things other than longevity these days…..
Also, my horses live outside 24/7 too, and I totally agree that being outside as much as possible is the best way for most horses to live. Still doesn’t make breaking them early ok though.
Nope but it does make their bones stronger. Scientific studies have shown better bone density in young stock raised on turnout. Los Angeles, are you listening?
I’m curious…. can someone tell me the growth of their Warmblood / TB from the age of 2 to maturity? My now 3-yr old QH has grown 1inch in the last year. He bulked up some and developed more withers but looks like he’s done. My stallion’s foals never grew after age 3. Deb Bennett did mention that taller, longer-necked individuals can reach maturity later. I’ve seen so many tall horses that look really angular and gawky at 2 and don’t really come into themselves until 5 or 6.
I concede that it is better to wait as long as possible to start riding a horse, and a yearling shouldn’t even be a consideration here, but there are other factors to consider – horse by horse. Conformation, health, weight & skill of rider, duration and speed of rides, footing, hoof care just to name a few. If a 15 yr old was started at two, ridden and competed extensively, ignored for months or years, hoof care neglected and then came up lame when asked to work again – diagnosis navicular, there is always a possibility that neglect and/or lack of natural exercise played a part in that too. Many HJ / Dressage & most halter people seem terrified to turn their horses out, like in a paddock or field, for fear of an injury. I still believe that standing in a stall 23/7 contributes to lameness issues and I won’t regress on that point. Blood needs to flow in muscles, joints, & hoof structures to keep them healthy. People who take long plane trips are at risk of blood clots in their legs. It can’t be a whole lot healthier for a horse designed by nature to move close to 20 hours a day to stand in fluffy, soft shavings with no natural concussion. Plus they loooooove to roll in the mud, bounce up, fart and take off like a Learjet. Kinda hard to do in a 12 foot square. I guess when showing & winning become more important than the health and happiness of the horse, it’s just a downward spiral. Maybe I’ll extend my 25-26 month start to 28-29, after all, it can’t hurt to wait another 3 months.
Agree with this.
My horses live out, 2 of them on a 20 acre field, 24/7 all year round. They spend 99% of their time just being horses. They get fed once per day (sometimes twice over winter if required, or hay needs replenished) – and are healthy, happy and sane.
Yet at the same time, the yearling I got in 2008, was a nicely developed 2 year old, and an even nicer 3 year old, but still I’m waiting till he’s four because he’s not quite got the ‘sane’ part down, since he was an extremely timid and shy baby when we got him. Had he been less prone to drama queen outbreaks and had my health been better, he would have been backed this year at 3. But never at two.
Horses need to be horses, and part of that means not riding them as babies. There’s no excuses for it. If truly you want your horses to be horses, let them grow up as a horse first, then break them at 3 or 4. Of course, do all the groundwork – my boy has his down to a T, but let them develop properly before starting them under saddle.
I totally agree with you. I have actually had someone argue that point with me, about how human sports often start so young. Essentially she was saying that because sports have the occasional Brett Favre, or Omar Visquel, and Jim Thome who are able to continue well into their 40s, that it doesn’t hurt players to start so early. Thing is, if 90% of the pro sports players are hurt or retired after 2-3 seasons, one starts to wonder.
Same for horses. Do I know a few horses that started before 3 and are still reasonably sound in their late teens/early 20s, Sure. But the majority are receiving pharmaceutical help by the age of 8. There will always be a few exceptions, but they do not negate the detrimental aspect of the practice for the other, much larger percentage of horses.
I’m tired of being part of a horse show world that hands out joint injections and bute like their Flinstones vitamins.
They’re not “their “
“I’m tired of being part of a horse show world that hands out joint injections and bute like their Flinstones vitamins.”
Exactly.
I have a twenty year old. She has never received hock or knee injections of any kind, jumps like a star, and thinks that she’s six. She’s on a senior feed and Platinum Performance, but she has never once needed injections in the years I’ve known her, nor any specific joint supplement (Platinum Performance is kind of an all-around thing, and when she was off it for a week or two when the refill was taking its sweet time in arriving, I noticed very little in her ridability at all – her coat was less shiny and she lost a bit of form over fences, but just as elastic and smooth as ever). I don’t know her history, but I’d be willing to bet that she wasn’t started until four.
Amanda, honey, first I want to thank you for responding on this blog, ALWAYS the high point of these posts, when the abuser responds, usually making things much worse by admitting the wrong doing.
Second, had you actually spoken to a lawyer, he/she would have explained to you that slander is the spoken word and liable is the written word that is untrue and damaging.
So lets recap, it is claimed you ride yearlings, this you admit. It is claimed you are to heavy to ride little horses, you also admit being heavy. So where are the untruths?
Also you are not old enough to have worked your butt off. Come back and tell us the same thing after you have put 20 or 30 years into work, not 4 or 5.
If you don’t want the public to talk about you and your horses, don’t put them on a public forum (youtube).
NO offense but i unlike the rest of you im riding and working so im on my cell phone and really dont find this exciting and worth go over my small screen so ill make this quick.. My clients are floored at what they think you think is appropriate behavior and they think this site is disgusting and everyone on it including myself so this will be my last post because i agree
This is very sad and a bunch of lonely people who need to get hobbies and get off the internet. The fact you take and you look for someones personal business video and post on your socalled fuglyblog makes you look like loosers and pathetic people who have nothing better to do with thier time then to sit at home and bash on people who are actually out there doing something who have accomplished, proven themselves, top ten in the eq and horsemanship at the congress as a fat rider
top ten in the pleasure and trail as a fat rider at the congress.. even a fat rider! because its easier for you to sit at home behind a book and computer and statistics… get some real experience..
You are hilarious. You have no idea about anyone’s personal life here, but since we dared to criticize you for riding an 18 month old baby, now we are sad and lonely people? ROTFL. OK, Dr. Drew!
Seriously, I can’t argue with you because you’re not intelligent enough to stick to the topic and hold up your end of the debate. There’s just no point. But do feel free to keep blathering away…
Would you send a first grader to school with a 40lb backpack? Of course not, so why would you do that to a yearling?
FYI to have a libel case (slander is SPOKEN) you need to prove negligence or actual malice (in your case negligence). Fugs hasn’t said anything false or libelous about you. You posted the video yourself. You said that you’re riding a yearling. She disagreed with your training method (as would any sane member of the horse community). Difference of opinion is not a substantial cause for a libel case. Your “case” won’t hold water in court, assuming it even makes it that far.
Really, the topic of discussion here is that you are on the internet riding a yearling. You do not dispute that you do this. So what is your problem? How does it harm your business if all of your people already know that you do this and are fine with it? As far as you thinking that everyone on here is a lonely loser without any life… I am a horse trainer too. My clients and I compete and win at the class A, Regional, and National level. There are many others here who also make their living with horses and are very busy, but feel that this blog provide a very important service to the horse community. The truth is that if you broadcast yourself on the internet, then you asking for people to watch what you do and have opinions. If you can’t take the heat, then don’t post the video.
Amanda, lots of AQHA trainers (and Walking horse trainers actually) ride their babies/yearlings. You just got lucky enough to be picked for this specific blog. In other words, you are not that special. Just a symptom of a bigger problem.
Just so you know:
1. Type correctly, or don’t type at all. It doesn’t matter if you make your living riding. You are still expected to be a professional.
2. Don’t text/use your phone while riding. It’s rude (clients are paying you to ride, not text), it’s dangerous (especially when riding babies), and it’s costly if you drop your phone.
3. Don’t play on the Net at work. Seriously, work time is work time. I’m glad your clients support your decision to ride babies– that means you and your clients are well suited. But again, they are paying you to work their horses, not whine on a blog.
4. The next time you break out a yearling, make sure they line drive and are very very leg/face broke before you go off trittrotting around. Without those core principles, sooner or later you are going to eat a fence or a barn wall.
4.
Gosh you are so right, thanks for the wake up call. This doctoral program I am in is not time consuming at all, and I probably am pretty pathetic. And what is all this fancy “knowledge” doing for me anyhow? I’m sure my patients won’t really care after I graduate. Fractured femur… pulled muscle… put some ice on it! And hitting the gym every day most definitely qualifies as lazy, thank GOD someone finally called me out on it! I really should not take my health so seriously. Oh, and I’m definitely not scraping together every last cent of my loans to afford riding right now, because since I’m on here I can’t be a “real” rider. Totally forgot.
Hey crazy, SHOVE IT. I would be willing to bet that most people on here are like me- I have worked my ass off for every lick of nice horse I have ever been given the opportunity to ride. And I did it with a conscience. You, on the other hand, rely on people (“clients?”) who drank the kool aid and don’t know any better. Have you even read any of these posts? A lot of them are really informational (if you need to skip over the words that are more than 2 syllables, it’s ok. We understand. Baby steps.) Maybe if you would shut your 3rd grade vocabulary yap for 10 seconds and read instead of lashing out at everyone you could learn something.
I THINK a lawyer may have also mentioned not adding anymore content on here or contacting or having contact with FHOTD.
But it’s so much fun when they go into self distruct mode
To Chevaliers……..Sounds like “stress founder”/road founder or chronic bruising……..which is very likely a result of your farrier pulling the shoes but then trimming the hoof as if you were going to reset the shoes instead of leave him barefoot. The difference is basically this: when a farrier is going to put on a set of shoes, they trim the sole back, then level out the hoof wall, then put on the shoes. The sole is not in direct contact with the ground with the shoe on. BUT, when the horse is barefoot, the sole does contact the ground, which is why barefoot trimmers NEVER touch the sole with a hoof knife – they want that callus to build up, they want the hoof to “learn” to be naturally concave, and you can almost watch the transformation from a flat “shoed” foot to a barefoot foot in the course of 2-3 months with proper trimming. If a farrier doesn’t understand “barefoot” as opposed to a “pasture trim”…..you get thin soles, bruising, heel pain, etc.
I’m a strong advocate of barefoot – and most of our performance horses ARE barefoot – but it can be especially tough to make the transition from shoes to bare if the farrier doesn’t think through the process beforehand.
Thanks for the information, Rainbeau! That makes sense about the differences of a bare foot trim and a pasture trim. Looking back on watching my farrier I’ve noticed that when he takes the shoes off in the winter, he trims them the exact same way as if he were to put shoes back on him. I didn’t know there was a difference, but now I see it-or technically the lack of a trimming difference. So it looks like the first step I’ll take is finding a different farrier! I’ll try this bare foot trimming technique for a year and see how he does with his feet. Thanks to everyone who answered my questions!
Of course the video has already been taken down before I got to it, but the website is still up. Just a few observations from flipping through the pages…
-Boy, Amanda Winger is no small girl, is she? Weight on a yearling is weight on a yearling, no matter if it’s 5 pounds or 500, but good god, is she serious? And a Western saddle on top of that? Even the racehorse people (who are in their own special class of wtf) don’t put more than a hundred twenty pounds or so, rider included, on their barely-two-year-olds.
-Scrolling through the show team page, why are the cantles of all these saddles levitating above the horse’s back? Especially when the horse has his head being pulled down between his knees with whatever bastardization of draw reins/running martingale they are using? That says to me that either the saddle doesn’t fit or the horse is being forced into an unnatural body position, or both.
-What’s with the huge spurs? Did she never learn how to use her leg or something? My horse is pretty much The God of Ignoring The Leg, but I’ve never needed anything more than a rounded 3/4″ ladies Prince of Wales to get him to wake up. Those things she’s wearing look like a puncture wound waiting to happen!
-The Facilities page. Very few photos of the actual facilities, but lots of (really pretty) photos of the great view they have up there in Woodland. There’s that one lovely white-fenced grass field, which I would bet none of those horses ever get to graze on except maybe that one happy-looking, muddy white horse and maybe the sheep, and the pole barn. I grew up in Nor Cal (actually I used to go to schooling shows in Woodland), and I know that the climate is nowhere near as harsh as it is here in the midwest, so a real barn isn’t strictly necessary, but a pole barn always strikes me as cheap. Personal opinion.
I probably would not have been very impressed with this place and its “trainer” even if I didn’t know she abused yearlings.
I HAD TO STOP THE HORSE AND SAY WHAT!!!! I have an MD BARN you are a FREAK, This is hilarious now i am understanding its now a joke its so pathetic and weird!
The cantle is levitating because the saddle is sitting on the horse’s withers in the front because a. the horse’s withers are very high or b. the tree is too wide.
A saddle that fits will fit regardless of a horse’s position, but a saddle that fits poorly will be exaggerated by a change in position. My guy has high-ish withers. I could literally run my hand under the cantle (I was obviously not riding in it) and when he put his head down it lifted up enough that the saddle pad would flap. I got a Thorowgood T4 (made for high-ish withered horses) saddle and it fits beautifully and the fit doesn’t change no matter how he’s moving.
Also wanted to share….One of our best roping horses is 9 this year. He was a wash-out in the cutting horse industry. Which you know means he was started somewhere between 16 and 18 months old. He is now in egg-bar shoes to help stabalize his fetlocks – he has the start of sidebone in both front legs, and it’s only a matter of time until he’s retired as a weekend trail horse because he simply won’t be comfortable enough to “work”. His hocks show a little arthritis on x-rays, but are cleaner than you would expect, and vet isn’t ready to inject at this point…though, knowing the horse’s history, he expects to have to do at some point down the road. He’s even suggested we “could” inject all 4 legs but…if it comes down to it, he’ll be a pasture pet when necessary. When you think……he would probably be 100% sound if someone had just waited to start him………………
Roping horses are still performing in their 20′s because most of the guys who train them are smart enough to know it takes years to “make” a dependable horse. They’ll start them as 2.5 or 3 year olds, turn them out, let them grow up, bring them in and train them for 6 months on w/t/c, neck reining and the finer points of working off leg, start them tracking the roping dummy at 4, then ask them to really rope a cow at 5 or 6, once their body and mind can handle it. The average age of a horse at the NFR was something like 22? 24? So really, if you want to perform at the “high levels”….why be in a hurry about it?
Sure. All science aside, the disciplines in which horses don’t enter competition ’til later all very COMMONLY have horses in their 20s still competing. Ultimately that’s always my argument. I cannot stand seeing horses that are companion-only at age 12 because someone had to win something. While a lot of us have “useless” horses, it is much more rare in the horse world at large. A little patience can lead to a 25 year old who is still in someone’s lesson program having kids love on him all day, whereas the rushing often leads to a 12 year old who is in a kill pen. It is hard for horses to stay safe when they’re chronically unsound.
Agreed. My personal view is now that I’d rather have a “useless” baby for a year or two while they mature, than a “useless” 15 year old that might well have another 10 years before it’s time. Baring unforeseen circumstances, just a few more months of patience could add years to a horses useable life span. I guess I just don’t get the greed/ignorance/impatience of getting them going so very young.
Honestly some of the best horses I know are OLD. My trainer’s horse is thirty, an AA ex-junior-hunter, and he can still make 2’6″. He’s still show sound with the right rider, actually, but he hasn’t gone because a) it’s stressful and b) he likes to chase other horses and freak out in the show ring (he once jumped full out of the ring in Ocala, 20-odd years ago, probably, over nothing more than a string, and proceeded to wreak havoc – this was before she owned him, she’s usually quick to add!). Anyway, point is, he’s always been a hunter and it is pretty rare to see horses started before three here. Backed at the end of the two year old year, maybe, but although I’m not very up-to-date on the official rules, I’m pretty sure that they can’t even jump in shows until they’re at least 4 if not 5. The emphasis is on soundness, and a proper hunter has to move extremely well (I know people complain sometimes about horses who trot unsound, and I understand that, but one of the best horses I ever showed never competed in flat classes because he was simply stiff. But he was 18 when I was showing him, and he could still make 2’9″ look easy). You’re really screwing yourself over if you start your horse too early because it’s not just about the jumping, it’s about that free, easy, relaxed movement.
Eventers are excellent at this, too, I’ve noticed. The horse I’m looking at buying was purchased by her current owner as a two-year-old straight from the breeder’s field. She was pastured, plus a little ground work training (this horse has incredible manners!), for the next two years, and wasn’t started at all until she was a true four (not a Jan 1st). At six, she’s schooling 3’6″, has proven herself in hunters, dressage, jumpers, and eventing, all separately, and has tons of potential to go higher. This is one of the reasons I like her – she’s an investment, because she’s young, sound, and has potential. I could sell her at 10 for twice what I’d pay, because she’d still be completely sound, and I’d be willing to bet that since she was started so nicely and is naturally well-conformed, that she could be showing well into her late teens if not into her twenties.
I love old horses, but I love the experience of working with young ones.
Anyway, that was a bit of a ramble…
What do you folks, trainers and breeders especially, think of breaking 2-yr-olds for harness work while waiting to saddle and ride them at 3? I’m thinking of light or fine harness work here, with the horse pulling a very lightweight sulky or buggy, not anything to do with racing.
One of the stables I used to ride at as a kid kept a string of show saddlebreds and I gathered that this was the usual pattern of training for them at the time…they were driven as 2-yr-olds, but not ridden until they were 3 to ‘save’ their backs. But that was back in the 1960s. I have no idea what’s considered ‘the norm’ anymore.
I don’t have a driving background but I can’t see any way pulling a light sulky would hurt them if ground driving doesn’t hurt them. I mean, I could pull a human in a sulky with very little effort, and I am not a horse.
I’d say that likely wouldn’t hurt them.
I’d also note that my experience is that breaking them to harness first actually seems to make a better riding horse…calmer, straighter, more aware of their hindquarters.
Last year a local woman was killed while working with a (very) young STBD. The people who own the horses apparently start their your horses in harness while in their second year ( under 2 years) and this youngster got confused about the harness and the sulky cart and blew up and knocked over the woman holding him. She got up and thought she was fine but had a pain in her chest. Then dropped dead. Broke a rib and then punctured her heart.
But my point is that regardless that this horse was not being put under saddle, it was being put into a situation that he was not mature enough to deal with. That said, horses younger than 2, but better 3 or 4 are not mature enough mentally for unnatural situations. They have to grow up inside and outside.
I worked at a very small, privately owned farm when I was young, and that was the usual thing there. It was all Arabians, and as they weren’t commonly backed till they were 4 or 5, my boss had them broke to drive at about 3 so by the time it was time to back them, they knew all the basics and were used to working.
I always felt it was a nice system.
As for my guy, he was 3 this year and even though he’s 17+ hands, he just was lanky looking and somewhat ungainly still. We left him in the pasture, and he’ll come in this spring for more ground work and to possibly start when he’s coming four. Now, I’m 5’4″ and about 135 lbs.. but that just wasn’t the point. He wasn’t ready, so out to the pasture he went for another year of growing and eating. If it’s not worth waiting for them to be ready to ride, why do you have them in the first place?
The problem with this is that the horses brain is not ready for work at this age. I drive and I do not aim to have the horse in harness before three, later if necessary.
The gentleman who raised and trained my horse starts them with ground work at about two (but ponies them all over the place even when very, very young) He drives the ones he *raises* (but not necessarily the ones he takes in for training) because they can learn so much and develop their ways of going without the strain of weight on the back. When my gelding got a respiratory infection a few years back, once he recovered Bob urged me to drive him before riding him, because it’s so much easier on them all the way ’round. (we had dirt roads to drive on)
My gelding came to me pretty young.. but with rules. How people snickered at me for not doing anything but walking, not riding more than 20 minutes or so without a break to get off and let him graze some… I plan on being this horse’s riding buddy till he’s in his twenties and I’m in my 70s (barring unforseen tragedy.. alas) so the care was well worth it.
My 1992 model QTR was broke to drive at 2 and not ridden until he was 3 and he’s still going strong. I loved driving him…not only is it easy on them, it’s easy on you too!!!
To Heck with the “norm”…do what you feel is right!
My barn owner breeds and shows minis, and I know that none of her minis are ever started (driving) until they are AT LEAST 3, but usually around 4 or 5. However, it is probably much easier for a big horse to pull a human than a mini.
My old saddlebred was allegedly started this way: he was broke to drive at 2, then kicked back out to pasture until he was 3 to start his under saddle training. That horse was 31 years old when I put him down last year, never took a lame step, and was even packing some kids around the weekend before he was put to sleep (he had a stroke- NOTHING to do with soundness). When my vet came out to do a physical on him when he was 28, the vet commented that he was more sound than most 5-year-old QH he sees.
My old saddleseat trainer insisted that I also learn how to drive (I was TOTALLY not interested- I was 14 at the time and wanted to RIDE. now I regret that I didn’t pay closer attention, LOL) because, “it’s easier for a horse to pull weight than to carry weight.” I have no idea if this is true, but she insisted it was, and it makes sense to me, so I’ve never questioned it. She also taught many of the barn retirees to pull carts to keep them “employed” in their later years. I loved that idea- it was so awesome to see the 30-something-year-old retired POA gelding proudly pulling a little 2-wheeled cart around the property.
Col. Alois Podhajsky said, “Things take time.” The Spanish Riding School doesn’t start their stallions until they are 4 years old, but those stallions compete into their 20s. In reading through all the comments, it seems that there are still some people who confuse “work” with “riding” in arguing that stress helps build bone density. Ground-driving and ponying are two ways to work young horses that require neither a rider on the young horse’s back nor the strain of circling on a lunge line or round pen.
“Follow the money.” It seems to me that the Venn diagram of horse lovers and the “horse industry” has a fairly small intersection.
I broke my Mini gelding to drive at three. Easy lessons, slow speeds, no pushing. He didn’t seem to like it much, but he did it and we entered and placed Top Ten a Nationals in the Futurity. (Mini Futurity is all halter until three, then driving and halter at three) I then gave him a year off. Gave his mind a break. Went back at five, he picked right up where we left off, and this time he seemed to like it! At seven he was Reserve Grand Champion in his class, and this year, at ten, he was Reserve Champion in two classes and Top Tenned in five others.
I am just starting my next driving Mini- he is four. Plus I have a five year old waiting to be started (time, time, I need more TIME!) and then, who knows!
My yearling are still playing in the field. They get lessons in leading, standing, tieing, all the lovin’ they could want, but they aren’t asking to do things they aren’t physically capable of handling.
And we have an EIGHTEEN year old gelding who would still be driving if he hadn’t foundered two years ago. He is pasture sound and could probably be used lightly.
As I prepare to head to the barn for another day of hand-walking my big, floaty mover and extraordinary jumper who just can’t stay sound in the winters, who would probably be showing the A-circuit now if he hadn’t been started at two and raced hard at three, I would like to give a great big middle finger to Amanda, the racing industry, the futurity show industry, and anyone and everyone who thinks that it’s okay to start babies. Sure there are a handful of people (me included) who will mop up your mistakes and love them, sporadically sound though they may be. I wish there were a way to sue the person who damaged a horse’s joints and force them to pay its future veterinary bills. Betcha there’d be a whole lot less two year olds under saddle if the person on their back could be held liable for any joint damage proven to be caused by too much weight too young.
EXTREMELY off topic – so please accept my apologies, but couldn’t resist posting this:
http://laughingsquid.com/how-to-gift-wrap-a-cat/?ref=nf
No, you didn’t comment on it, but someone else did. Someone who, I must note, is using a different name here than they do on our forum, and has yet to ID themselves any other way.
That’s the sort of thing that can and does start rumors, which is why I jumped on it.
Anyone who has their own place on the web and dares to voice their own opinion long enough will find themselves with “anti-fans”. I know you’ve experienced that phenomenon yourself. People who hate you, but keep coming back over and over. They just pant with the desire “catch” you doing something that looks bad.
Let’s say you were being video taped riding a horse. You’re loping along, and the horse throws a shoe. Maybe it’s a few very lame strides before you get him pulled up. If that video hit the net, how many seconds would it take for the anti-fans to have a field day posting an edited version of that to every place they could think of screaming that you ride lame horses?
Ellie has the same thing to a much smaller degree. What she does isn’t what you do, but she does run games. She does deal with cheaters. They are usually given a chance to straighten up and fly right after they get busted, and some do get on the straight and narrow. Others stay around, but they do so with a massive chip on their shoulder. And it’s not uncommon for them to go to other places and make comments that are, to put it mildly, a bit lopsided. The entitled types really don’t like it when they aren’t allowed to bend the rules to their liking.
We have quite a few on the forum right now that I know are blasting her behind her back. (Or rather, they think they are.)
So no, it comes as no surprise to me that multiple people reported it. There are multiple people there who have chips on their shoulders. I wouldn’t be surprised even if they came up with the idea individually, just like your haters would be very likely to come up with the idea of posting smack on you without any help.
I don’t particularly agree with starting early myself. The one I raised I first backed as a 3 year old, but she really didn’t see a lot of riding until she was five. The running walk is a gait that requires good coordination, which is lacking in most young horses, particularly the tall ones. While they can do fine on their own in a pasture, adding the weight of a rider and learning to be be able to corner and bend with a rider to the picture can really make it a train wreck. Since I don’t use mechanical or chemical “fixes”, my options are having an unhappy horse struggling with a gait they just aren’t together enough to pull off, or waiting until it’s they have their act together and having it come as easily as possible.
I own saddles, bridles, and two types of bits. One is a French link snaffle. (Walkers tend to have a shallow roof in the mouth, and a normal snaffle joint will usually pop them painfully there, the French link doesn’t.) The other is a simple curb. I’ve heard it called a grazing bit – it’s the type that come free on cheap western bridles. (Which is exactly how I got most of mine.) About as thick around as a thumb, mild port, shanks about 2 inches long. What I do not own would be martengales, side reins, gag bits, side pulls, tie downs, drop nosebands, figure 8 nosebands, mechanical hackamores, overchecks, chains, stacks……most of which are used by trainers industry wide.
I had my disagreement with a horse being backed this early, and I did raise my concerns to Ellie. I did so with considerably more manners than the troll did on the forum. I received back a lot of information I didn’t have previously re: the exact schedule the filly is on, what else is being done to keep her sound, yadda yadda, along with some very interesting articles. I’m still not entirely on board, but I don’t feel this is the crime others seem to see it as. Watching the clips, I see a horse who looks mostly bored, with the occasional “Huh? Do what? What did you say?”
People keep raising points on how many t-breds and stock horses come up lame and unusable and how wrong that is. I’m on board with that. I do think it’s proof of something that is Just Not Right about the whole scene. (I think there’s a whole lot more that’s Just Not Right about the big lick walking horse scene, but I digress…)
The one thing I do not see being taken into account is how craptastic the conformation is on many of these horses. In my youth, I owned a quarter horse who wasn’t backed until 3. She was trained only western pleasure and never did things like rollbacks, speed events or jumping. She was a 15.2 hands, as nearly as wide as tall. She was dead lame at age 6. Navicular in both front feet. This was in the 80′s, at the height of the “huge body, tiny feet” fad, and she was a poster child for the look. People raved about how beautiful she was. Once I gave up on showing due to her lameness and word got out, I was bombarded with breeders who wanted her. I am fully convinced that she would have been just as lame if she had done nothing but walk around the pasture grazing all day, but they wanted her for breeding. She was a Skips Brick lined horse, and that was hot then. Never mind she was unsound due to mechanical failure, they wanted her.
When I look at show horses in general – across the board – ALL breeds – I see a whole lot of horses that are flat out parodies of what the breed should be. Ugly parodies at that.
Yes, Arabians should have a little fire in their attitude, should they really be so damn hot as to be insane? Go to some Arabian shows, you’ll see them. No, not all, but IMO, one in 20 is too damn many.
Yes, stock horses should be bulky. Do they need to look like a beef fattened steer? The mare I mentioned above really did. Her overall body shape was almost dead square. Should their forearms and stifles really be bulging out like a steroid-using weightlifter’s biceps?
Yes, t-breds should be lean and elegant looking. But should a 1000 pound animal really be moving about on legs that are skinner than my dog’s? And never mind how many of them have hooves that seem to be made of chalk. Remember Barbaro? He had at least one hoof that was 3/4 cement if not more. They wanted to keep him alive to breed a few more thousand just like him! Why? Cause he was fast, and to the racehorse breeders, fast matters way more than crumbling feet.
Fugly, you’ve posted enough Frankenhorses here. You tend to post the more severe ones, but I think you’d agree with me that there are a lot of less-gross but still problematic builds working the show rings. Upright pasterns. Overly long pasterns. Bow legs, or legs so cowhocked they rub their hocks when they trot. Over at the knee, back at the knees. Horses built so downhill that they have 95% of their weight on the front end and look like they are about to fall over. Backs long enough to be in two separate zip codes….yadda yadda. I’m not talking about the faults that look bad, I’m not talking the difference between an Arabian’s higher head carriage and a stock horse’s lower one. I’m talking about ones that create points of unusual strain and mechanical failure.
I think, before everything gets blamed on bad riding/training, that all the horses who are mechanically guaranteed to have problems sooner or later need to be removed from consideration. Would some of these last longer with different training techniques? Maybe. Or perhaps even likely. But it flat out can not be blamed all on the training when the horse has a build that *will* fail with any use.
People are pointing out that working types that get used last longer. Well, there’s truth there, but if you look at the working cow horse lines or even the speed lines, and compare them to the pleasure lines, you do see very different horses – as has already been mentioned here. Pleasure horses do tend to be bigger & earlier – as was mentioned already. But there’s another difference. Look at their legs and shoulders. The straight legged, tiny knee action, daisy cutter stride that wins in stock horse flat classes (English and western both) is more likely to come out of a horse with straighter shoulders and pasterns. It’s more likely to come out of a horse who build makes them more likely to have a mechanical failure.
If you look at a good gaited horse, you will see a huge amount of knee action. Which breed doesn’t matter, if they can gait, you will see that knee going. You will see massive amount of “lift” and height in the stride of an average gaited horse compared to the stride of the average trotting horse. You will also find that the gaited horse has a seriously sloped shoulder and pastern. You don’t find upright pasterns and shoulders in the gaited breeds all that often, I think I’ve seen it maybe twice in 30 years. The reason you don’t is that the build limits the motion in the front end and prevents a good gait, be it running walk, stepping pace, rack or the paso gaits…they just can’t get it going well if they can’t get that knee up.
No, you just don’t find upright pasterns in gaited horses. You know what else you don’t find all that often? Navicular. At least outside of of the big lick show horses. I’ve never personally known a gaited horse to go lame from anything other than a random injury like slipping on a muddy hill or such. Never. My mare was sound until her death in her late 20′s. Her filly was sound as long. The ex-big lick gelding I rehabbed – who had a HORRID abusive start in life, I promise you – was probably in his 30′s when he passed in his sleep and he was still happily doing 50 mile rides. (I was told he was in his early teens when I out bid the kill buyer, a vet later told me late teens was pushing it, he was probably early mid20′s. So his age is questionable, but he wasn’t a five year old.) They all went barefoot unless I was in an area where trail riding meant a lot of roads or really rocky areas and then it was on the front only.
I don’t think it’s because of the training they got — I know some big lick people who start theirs on stacks as weanling and are riding at 6 months. I’ve seen videos of a 300 pound plus man on a baby who was staggering under the weight…and he was whipping the horse to keep it going and yanking it around in a 12 inch shank bit and a tie down. And yet these horses manage to stay sound more often than not.
I don’t know how to get it started, but I would love to see a long term study on various builds and how long they last in their discipline of choice. I’d like it to be across various dissimilar breeds, and across various dissimilar disciplines. The breed makes no difference on the basic mechanics – a weak long back is a weak long back no matter if it’s on a Shetland pony or a Hanovarian. Short upright pasterns affect a quarter horse just like they would a perch. Back at the knee is bad on an Arabian and bad on a standardbred.
I’m betting that it would show that the build has a lot more to do with future unsoundness issues than early training.
Right now, I think it’s a little much to point to just an early start and say “this is the cause of all the problems”. There *are* other factors that can influence future soundness, and they need to be taken into consideration.
Problems will never be solved until they are identified with certainty. Right now, that just isn’t there. If early riding was a “for sure” cause of future unsoundness, then it would be across the board in every horse that was started early. And it isn’t. There are OTTB’s who go through life just fine. A friend of mine leased one in his 20′s, and her biggest issue was keeping him warm in the winter ’cause he just didn’t grow a coat worth mentioning. So there has to be some other issue, either working independently or in conjunction with early riding, that is a deciding factor. Something tips the balance. My bet is show ring desirable, but mechanically poor conformation.
I’d like to see all breeds stop all under saddle showing on horses under the age of 5. I’d also like to see them prohibit the use of any pain killers. This would reduce the early training and take a lot of the weak builds out of the picture. It would also put 3/4 of the trainers and breeders out of business, right or wrong, so it’s never going to happen. Ever. We can’t even get them to get rid of grossly abusive trainers. What was the name of that guy who jumped from quarters to apps? And there’s an Arab trainer who bounces around from state to state leaving a trail of complaints behind him. Hell, the walker club has people running for offices who have been fined for abuse! I think most of the current candidates have been, talk about the fox in charge of the hen house!
So long as people breed for a trendy but mechanically questionable look, show horses will go lame. Just like the horses going to slaughter, it all comes back to stupid breeding.
Just about the Barbaro thing–it was questionable whether or not he would ever be able to mount a mare, and since racehorses have to be conceived by live cover, if he had survived, there would’ve been a good chance that he couldn’t be used to sire more racehorses.
I don’t think that you can chalk up all the animosity to disgruntled players alone. Sure, there will be people like that, but at the same time she is supporting this sort of thing… and deserves to be called out on it. I think you are just making excuses for her. She is allowing her filly to be abused in this manner after all…. (and yes, riding babies IS abuse)
The only explanation for starting at 2 is money. It’s bugger all to do with the horse. It’s all $ or £, and like fugly says – they get them up and running, few wins under their belt and pack ‘em off to an unknown future, because who cares, as long as the money is in your bank account.
However – it’s supported by the buyers, and the only way to stop it – is to refuse to purchase animals started that young. I doubt that would ever happen, but as long as the market supports this training, it will continue. I won’t go as far to say as you pay for it, you endorse it – but it’s not far off.
I’m a pleasure owner, I don’t show – I hope to show my ”baby” (he’s currently 3) when he grows up and has a more sensible head than he currently does. I’ve broken in a fair number of horses now, mainly for my own use and always had safe and sane horses, with no injuries caused by their training. I’m not the best trainer, but my goal is safe, sane and something I can trust and ride, and I get that.
My current boy I had hoped to back this year – my health and his neurotic nature meant it was held back till next year when he turns 4. He’s had everything done bar being sat on, he’s had weight across his back, full tack on. He’s good with it, and I’ve every hope that he will be a safe and sane cob to plod about on,
I’ve had this boy since he was a yearling, and it never EVER crossed my mind to break him in at 2 just so I could get an extra year of riding out of him now, rather than wait, give him time and have many good years of riding in the future. I hope to have this horse till he dies (and hopefully from old age) – so we plan longterm, which is something the business breeders/trainers have no concept of.
Whew, glad I didn’t take her job offer. I was wondering why the name sounded so familiar and sure enough, I had e-mailed her about a stall cleaning job. But…..she wanted me to break my back for $7 an hour (minimum wage is $8) and there was another trainer nearby who was hiring a stall cleaner with much less work for $12 an hour. Poor baby horses. I would not have lasted long there
Off topic but I thought you would find this entertaining, Fugly!
http://laughingorcaranch.blogspot.com/2010/11/top-ten-reasons-why-you-should-not-wear.html
The only thing I am worrying about with my 7 month old is ground manners and loading. Bad or good, I have never lunged her. She will walk on a lead, pick up her feet, stand like a statue for farrier work, and we worked on backing and loading today. The later 2 have been taking some time and patience. I plan on taking her to a professional for some reinforced groundwork next summer. At two, I might start saddling and bridling without a rider. I don’t plan on doing anything under saddle until three. This is if I feel she looks physically mature to take on a rider.
My mother-in-laws 18 month old is just getting on to trailering with my urging. She looks nowhere near ready for anything above ground and trailer manners. I have had a 2 year old that looked completely mature and have thought about getting on but waited anyways. He was started at 3 1/2 and is now a great child’s mount at 5 because he was started slowly and gently.
Breaking in horses this young makes me sick!! Just wanted to bring up another point. Thes horses that are started so young ae also usally the horses that are kept stabled 24/7 becasue they are such precious shhow horses. this in itself is cruel. but compounding the problem of breaking them early is the fact that they are unfit with no muscle tone or coordination, as well as no natural bome concussions to help strength and gain bone density. Also they are usally shod incredibly early …all this adds to a bad situation to create horses that are lame by five!!!
I am an eventer i start my horses at 3 years old at the youngest. They are raised running on the steepest possible hills. I have never had soundness issues or seen any in this coutnry because no one starts horses under 2 years old…i also never shoe them earlier then 5 and ahve never had lamenes problems….
FYI for people who think horses are too strong after the age of 3….i also have broken in and trained wild mustered horses including stallions that were all over 4 years of age…im a tiny girl and never found these mature horses to ‘strong’ to break in correctly
good hormanship always works there is no excuse for bad.
I am so happy I am not the only one not feeling the “hock injections are totally normal” theory. People keep telling me they are, and I keep not believing, so thanks for the boost in self-confidence!
I’ve got a 2yo filly, my first baby, that I’m dying to ride, but I am of course waiting until she is 3 to start. Even then I’ll be riding her lightly for the first few years. If you want the horse to have a long career, then you take it slowly.
There is plenty you can do on the ground to prepare your young horse.
This mare is owned by the creator of the game Hajinc… makes a lot of sense.
As you can see, this woman has no business with horses, yet she runs a ‘realistic’ horse simulation. Puh-leeze. This woman treats her members like shit and has a real control problem (which is now showing in her poor filly). The forum for Hajinc is extremely catty with members such as Gael4ce sticking up for the creator to get rewards and to be a second hand person. You can also she that she is quick to call out other members, especially because she works with the creator of the game to rat out anyone who just slightly disagrees with her views. If anyone on the forum thought something was wrong with this filly being ridden, they would be deleted from the game. The worst part of all of this is that people PAY to play this game, yet the creator has favorites that she chooses to give lavish gifts and special horses to, while deleting those that disagree with her, even if they pay hefty sums for the game. It is such a corrupt game, is it any wonder that the owner is a whacko in real life?
AVOID HAJINC.COME LIKE THE PLAGUE
Also, the fact that the creator plays the game HERSELF just shows how corrupt the game is. How do you create the game and know all of its inner workings, and then play it? Its not wonder she has such a tight grip on all of her players and puts focus on certain members who she dislikes. I have seen it happen with many members where they were outcast by her for little things like giving a horse a name she thought wasnt fitting. Wow, control freak.
The members that frequent her forum are her blind followers who constantly stick up for her (in situations like this) in hopes that they receive her praise. Most of the members on the forum have no life but to sit at home and play a virtual game, so they do anything she says, and look away when they see the abuse this filly is put through. Its sick the mentality the forum carries due to this absolute whacko controlling it. Her real life and virtual life match up with evidence of this filly being abused and the control mentality she patrols on her forum/game.
I understand that you have complete control over YOUR creations, like a game/forum, but this lady is crazy in the way she does it.
I also reccomend that anyone looking for a fun, rewarding game with a great support staff to look elsewhere… I’m a self admitted nerd and actually bought a year-long subscription to the game for about $25, and still had 9 months left when Ellie banned me. No refund given, because apparently “The member acknowledges that once money is paid to HuntAndJump.com , HuntAndJump.com reserve the right to not issue a refund for any reason.” Good job covering your ass Ellie, whenever you go on a censorship/banning rampage you’ve shown everyone that you couldn’t care less about your customers.
Hey maybe you guys should do a class action against ELLIE!
Since we’re all being frivolously litigious here. You have more of a valid claim that she does.
This isn’t the first bad thing I’ve heard about Hajinc. The game Horseeden.com was created because many members were sick of the owner and the moderators at Hajinc.
I’m not insane nor am I an idiot because I ride 2-year olds; blanket statements don’t apply to everyone. I don’t show any longer, except rarely at Open shows, so I’m not pushing the physical requirements of any particular discipline. Babies don’t spin, slide, run fast circles, rollback, jump, rock back on their hocks or ride on the bit at two. If they choose to do these things at play, it’s their choice and they’re given ample time to do so. How about the babies that are jumped to promote them, sans rider? How well do those joints hold up to repetitive, forced jumping, like 4’ or higher? It’s becoming common place to see this.
Maybe Europeans don’t show horses until age 4, and I completely support that decision. But Europeans, just like everywhere else in the world, DO race 2-year olds. Goldikova for example won 3 races as a 2-yr old, therefore she was ridden as a yearling. Zenyatta wasn’t run until late in her 3rd year. Running a baby full tilt with a rider in deep sand or mud 5-7 days a week is idiocy. I recently considered adopting a TB through the CANTER Rescue and nearly every horse has either a knee chip, bowed tendon, or an “ankleâ€, whatever the hell that means. There were only a few that were listed as sound and most should ‘probably be fine with some time off’. Their toes were extremely long which means long term tendon, ligament strain on little pencil legs….
The first 2-yr old I started is going strong at 25, out at least 5 days a week on hilly, rocky trails with a Senior gal who adores her. This after 3 years of Reining competition in her youth. Maybe the advantage is that most of the horses I start are stock breeds and aren’t exceeding 15 hands, & I’m small. Based on most of the WB 2-yr olds I see, I’d wait until they turned 3 or maybe 4 before riding them to allow them time to reach close to full height. They mature considerably slower. The only horse I had soundness issues with was a 4 yr old WB. She was 4 ½ before she ever carried a rider and she didn’t hold up and is a pasture puff now. Not one of the ‘cowponies’ broke down and I’m in touch with close to a dozen still. You really need to factor in more than age before slinging ‘idiot’ around. Not all of us are show-bound and I’m patient enough to wait until 3 or 4 to ask for the ‘serious’ stuff.
blondemare said, “Maybe the advantage is that most of the horses I start are stock breeds and aren’t exceeding 15 hands, & I’m small. Based on most of the WB 2-yr olds I see, I’d wait until they turned 3 or maybe 4 before riding them to allow them time to reach close to full height. They mature considerably slower.”
How many times do we have to post this? From Dr. Deb Bennett — “Ranger is not mature, as I said, as a 2 1/2 year old. This is NOT because Ranger is a “slow-maturing†individual or because he comes from a “slow maturing†breed. There is no such thing. Let me repeat that: no horse on earth, of any breed, at any time, is or has ever been mature before the age of six (plus or minus six months). This information comes, I know, as a shock to many people who think starting their colt or filly under saddle at age two is what they ought to be doing.â€
PLEASE read her entire article here — http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
Changing one’s views/opinions when faced with an overwhelming amount of well-supported evidence is a sign of intelligence.
Where is the “like” button on this damn page?
And WHY do people refuse to accept that all horses mature in the same way, at more or less the same time?
They are all horses, not different species. Just because they “look” finished, does not mean they mature quicker on the inside. *insert McMassive eyeroll here*
Stock Breeds DO NOT mature quicker than warmbloods.
Amanda Winger has never been known for her ethics. She teaches her students to win at all cost. Even if it means lying about your age so you can show with younger riders at Gold N Grand.
She was asked to judge a local 4H horse show where 99% of the horses are back yard horses that typically only showed once a year. She went to a public forum where she publically ridculed the volunteers that put on the horse show saying how horrible the riders and horses were. She also judged some of her own students. They made up the 1% that showed “Congress” level horses. I guess it made her feel like the “big trainer” to have her students compete and win against beginner riders with back yard horses with no official training. She even went so far as to stop the show and command a meeting with all parents to let us know how untrained the horses and riders were and how we weren’t Congress and World level competitors. Well duh! It was a little 4H schooling show made up of kids that had never shown before and would never plan to show at the Congress and World levels.
I copied and pasted her negative comments and sent them to the Fair Office that put on that show. They contacted her and asked her to take down the comments. I can assure you she will not be judging that show again. They use kid friendly judges that help and teach this kids how to show and how to have fun.
Why am I so not surprised?
Well, this is the kind of thing that needs to get out there before customers choose a trainer. Now they can find out the truth about someone’s reputation and the experiences others have had with that person. As I’ve said before, if one or two ex-customers hate you, welcome to the horse business. If ten ex-customers hate you, the common factor is YOU and where there is smoke, there is fire.
SNAPPYAPPY that show was a 4-h show called DIXON MAY FAIR AND I pulled everyone inside after five two classes of every kid going off course in showmanship telling them just because it says you can show it dont put your kids in the class if they DONT UNDERSTAND IT AND DONT KNOW THE PATTERN.. NOT ONE KID NEW HOW TO SHOW THE SHOWMANSHIP PATTERN!! I then started the SHOW OVER and let them memorize the pattern and reshow it, so how dare you lie about how i judged that show. If your child wasnt a winner i am totaly sorry, but lieing about how the show went GET your facts straight, i was asked to judge the following year but couldnt because two of my youth girls showed there so i said i could not judge, but did judge the royalty and gymkhana so im not sure who you are talking about and who you are but i was there judging
AND ILL BE SURE TO LET LISA know you are saying that supposedly i am lieing about MY YOUTH RIDERS AGES AT THIER SHOW GOLD n GRAND they will love to know that since GOLD N GRAND IS A AQHA SHOW NOW AND YOU MUST SHOW AQHA PROOF SUCH AS Youth cards ages etc there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY of LIEING and getting away with ages its not an OPEN SHOW!
Try Again!!
Lies lies lies!!!
“NOT ONE KID NEW HOW TO SHOW THE SHOWMANSHIP PATTERN!! ”
Hooked on Phonics didn’t work for you, apparently. *sigh* Sad.
lieing=lying
I recently moved to the east coast and one of the lesson horses at my new barn is this darling black mare named Dream. She is perfect. She packs around the newer riders, steps it up for the more advanced riders, and takes care of her 70 year old owner. This mare has so much spunk, that when I was told she “used to do the jumpers,” I was surprised. Why didn’t she do them now? Dream is 28. I would have never guessed.
One of my cousins plays HAJINC. I know this blog article wasn’t about the game, but one thing that seriously disturbed me was the Yum-Yum company. The game encourages players to “yum” unwanted horses. They are sold at auction every week and if no one bids on them, the Slaughter company buys them up. No responsible breeding necessary.
After reading through this discussion on whether or not two year olds should be ridden, I stumbled upon this post asking for a critique of the their (ex) two year old, shown ridden double on a trail ride in one picture, and with a helmetless baby in a backpack in another. I thought of this board for so many reasons, lol. Here is a link if anyone wants a peek: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-critique/critique-apha-gelding-70693/#post817166
Lovely little horse. Judgment FAIL all around.
hey have you ever thought about making a stand at furturities or aqha shows? Since you think we are all evil and we need to stop riding horses before 5? that means we would get rid of all junior classes im sure aqha would love to hear from you and your forum?
Who said we needed to stop riding horses before 5? I started mine at 3.
Really, you have a LOT of issues with reading comprehension. Did you finish high school?
Why dont you just post videos of yourself starting your own horses and bag on yourself? you do post videos and photos of yourself dont you?
I have asked you very simple questions and you cant answer them but that’s ok. You seem to think you have a better education then i do, good for you!!! I hope that education is doing something for you other then sitting infront of a computer bashing equine people and business but if that’s your thing go for it! There are several ways to train, several different disciplines, techniques etc. If it was all done one way then we wouldn’t have so many great trainers, and no offence one way dosen’t work for the other person like it does for that person. I do not believe in jumping over benches and picnic tables its not fun for me.. I love showing a great 2 or 3 yr old in the pleasure pen surrounded by a bunch of people and knowing the horse is doing a wonderful job. And the fact you guys are all naive and think they are all forced into and aren’t actually bred and raised and don’t come out of the shoot traveling that way then you are crazy.. Different strokes for different strokes. BUT THIS FORUM forcing people, calling people names, harassing people, harassing kids, that will not help change the INDUSTRIES and will not help change the bad things, you are lower then the scum this is worse, you are only pissing people off and without alot of out halter, pleasure, cow furturities we wouldnt have the money to have horse shows. Most of you are not aware of this because you are not involved, we wouldnt be able to have youth shows, qualifying shows. There is so much more you are missing because you all are so closed and negative minded!!
I would never go to your WORK Call your boss and talk trash, say lies, write terrible things, get you fired, even better that some of my youth girls saw some of what was being said about thier horse(s) thats always nice when adults need to put down a little girl to make themselves feel better or sleep at night!!
“Why dont you just post videos of yourself starting your own horses and bag on yourself?”
Honey, if I were the asshole riding an 18 month old, I WOULD post video and bag on myself! But, see, I DON’T DO IGNORANT THINGS LIKE THAT, THEREFORE THE TOPIC DOES NOT APPLY TO ME.
“you do post videos and photos of yourself dont you?”
Sure, I’ve posted plenty. Never on an 18 month old though. Never even on a 2 year old. BECAUSE I DON’T DO IGNORANT THINGS LIKE THAT.
“I have asked you very simple questions and you cant answer them but that’s ok. You seem to think you have a better education then i do, good for you!!!”
I don’t think that, I know that. Pretty sure everybody reading this knows it, also!
“I hope that education is doing something for you other then sitting infront of a computer bashing equine people and business but if that’s your thing go for it!”
What are equine people? Centaurs?
And yeah, I actually have a great job of the type you never could have, because you are semi-literate at best.
“There are several ways to train, several different disciplines, techniques etc. If it was all done one way then we wouldn’t have so many great trainers, and no offence one way dosen’t work for the other person like it does for that person.”
That would be “offense.” And this isn’t about types of training, it’s about YOU RIDING AN 18 MONTH OLD BABY HORSE. I don’t care what discipline you’re training it for. It wouldn’t be okay if she were a dressage or hunter prospect, either.
“I do not believe in jumping over benches and picnic tables its not fun for me.. I love showing a great 2 or 3 yr old in the pleasure pen surrounded by a bunch of people and knowing the horse is doing a wonderful job.”
No one other than Linda Parelli jumps over picnic tables and I think she’s a bigger asshat than you.
“And the fact you guys are all naive and think they are all forced into and aren’t actually bred and raised and don’t come out of the shoot traveling that way then you are crazy..”
Shoot is what the guy in the Canadian slaughterhouse does to them. I believe you were trying for “chute.” And I agree with you that a well bred pleasure QH travels low headed and flat kneed naturally. However, that has nothing to do with the fact that RIDING AN 18 MONTH OLD HORSE IS ALWAYS IGNORANT AND WRONG.
“Different strokes for different strokes.”
The saying is different strokes for different folks. What you just said made no sense whatsoever. Also, while we are all allowed to be different, sometimes our different behavior crosses the line into what is wrong and harmful. LIKE RIDING AN 18 MONTH OLD BABY HORSE.
“BUT THIS FORUM forcing people”
Forcing people into what?
“calling people names, harassing people, harassing kids, that will not help change the INDUSTRIES and will not help change the bad things, you are lower then the scum this is worse, you are only pissing people off and without alot of out halter, pleasure, cow furturities we wouldnt have the money to have horse shows.”
ROTFL. Um, the dressage world doesn’t have futurities, how is it that they can afford to have horseshows? And you’d be shocked how much this blog and others like it HAVE changed the industry. For example, now people have the guts to tell you you’re wrong WHEN YOU’RE RIDING AN 18 MONTH OLD BABY HORSE.
“Most of you are not aware of this because you are not involved, we wouldnt be able to have youth shows, qualifying shows. There is so much more you are missing because you all are so closed and negative minded!!”
The sad part is that I think you really believe this. You know what shows have the biggest turnout? OPEN SHOWS. At this point, people are so sickened by the crap they see at breed shows, and the ridiculous expense of showing at them that they would rather just go to the open shows and have a good time. And I think it is extremely normal, natural and rational to be negative about PEOPLE WHO RIDE 18 MONTH OLD BABY HORSES.
“I would never go to your WORK Call your boss and talk trash, say lies, write terrible things, get you fired, even better that some of my youth girls saw some of what was being said about thier horse(s) thats always nice when adults need to put down a little girl to make themselves feel better or sleep at night!!”
First of all, children should not be on the Internet unsupervised. If they are reading this blog, which clearly should be blocked by any Net Nanny or similar software due to language, their parents are responsible. Secondly, who is this mythical boss of yours? I thought you had your own training operation. Third, if you are doing nothing wrong and all your clients agree, how in the world could my opinion get your fired or hurt your business? I mean, you are the one saying that there’s nothing wrong with riding an 18 MONTH OLD BABY HORSE so why don’t you just run with that and stop spending your time being reactive, emotional, defensive, and horrifying the crap out of us with your poor command of the English language?
So which part is not true?
That you ride long yearlings? That you are overweight?
It actually sounds like you are losing clients over this, seeing as you said you wouldn’t go to our bosses and make us get fired.
GOOD FOR YOUR CLIENTS, I’m glad they grabbed a brain.
Thank God.
You, my dear Amanda, are the one who is convincing me that: A) you don’t have the judgement to know the best age to start a horse under saddle. B) You don’t have the education to argue your case in public, and you don’t use spellcheck. C) You don’t have the emotional maturity and stability to handle a group of young riding students, or green horses. In fact, in light of your emotional outbursts, and your lack of comprehension, I wouldn’t allow you to handle any of my horses.
I don’t care how many ribbons you’ve won at the congress or the world show. We all know how that can be accomplished too, just search the archives for Cleve Wells. Most of us are here, and support this blog because we want a better life for horses, not more ribbons. There are many truly good trainers who take on appprentices. You need to be an apprentice for a number of years before you make decisions that affect the lives of any horses. You need to learn more about equine anatomy, reasoning and grammar. And last, but not least, you need a healthy dose of humility to be a truly good trainer. Anyone who doesn’t feel awe in the company of horses doesn’t deserve to be on their backs.
Amanda said:
“Most of you are not aware of this because you are not involved, we wouldnt be able to have youth shows, qualifying shows. There is so much more you are missing because you all are so closed and negative minded!!”
Honey, I was involved before you were born. You’ve got an ego like a hot air balloon, do you really think you can teach anything to anyone? You need an education.
Yeah, I would guess this girls’s age to be about 21 based on her pictures…10 based on her attitude, reading comprehension, and language skills. To say that we on this blog are not involved is ridiculous. I am not involved in showing or judging at the local level, or riding yearlings. That much is true. I can guarantee, though, that I have started, shown, and sold MANY more horses than she has. I’m talking about class A, Regional, and National level. the horse industry is my life, my passion, and my livelihood. This girl needs to realize that reputation is EVERYTHING. If you do right by one person, they tell one other person. If you do wrong by one person they tell 10 others. Plus, going off on the internet sounding like an ignorant hick gets you nowhere. Even horse trainers need to be educated and professional.
Haha, the moron really did have a break down.
Such a wall of text you can almost imagine the steam coming out the ears as the badly spelled words and nonsense is scrawled out. I don’t know if she’s trying to cleverly evade the fact she has partaken in cruelty to horses (how else do you accurately describe putting a self admitted fat rider on a baby’s back?) – or if she’s too stupid to actually see the points being raised.
She writes like Sarah Palin speaks. I hope it is because she is so very angry.
Better you wait till 5 than ride them as yearlings and give them serious health problems…
SnappyAppy FYI not a single client of mine rode in 4-h that year i judged the “SHOW PEN” So that was a lie i did have two SMALL 8 yr olds ride the next year this is why i couldn’t judge the ” Show Pen” but the Royalty and Gymkhana i could..
Pretty said you are lieing about a 4-h show, and that forum you are mentioning was bayequest and it wasn’t bagging on anyone it was actually someone else bringing it up saying thank you to me for allowing the kids to restart and actually getting help throughout the show and the tips i gave.. Being a poor sport is terrible sportsmanship and if you cant handle not winning then you shouldn’t be showing!
all i hear is baaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh in this room..
All I hear is the sound of my 2nd grade spelling teacher shrieking in horror.
Amanda – Who the hell is Lisa ? Tell her whatever you want. Your babbling is proving everything everyone already thinks about you.
You have never judged the Dixon May Fair show after the year you insulted and complained about the very people that hired you to judge that show. I have attended every show since my daughter was 10. I called the May Fair Office and complained about your “holier than thou†(Exhibiting an attitude of superior virtue; self-righteously pious) persona and so did some of the 4H leaders. You did not give the kids a second chance to do the pattern over and no one publicly thanked you for judging that show on BAEN.
You did judge your own students (current and past students). You even hung out with them before, during and after the show. One of your own students (the year before) didn’t follow the rules about riding a “leased†horse. Your student showed up with a national level horse to compete against back yard horses. Wow what a big accomplishment. Most of the kids that show at the Dixon May Fair don’t even own their own horses. The local training stable allows them to borrow the lessons horses, which all happen to be donated horses no one wants anymore. The girls from that lesson barn have so much fun at that show. That’s the only show they do all year long so you must be very proud that your student showed up on her $30,000 nat’l level horse and won every single class.
The year you did “judge†(term used loosely) my daughter did not place in most of her classes and she shouldn’t have. She was having problems with her gelding that year and had just moved up from the walk trot division to the junior division. It was a big step for her but she learned how to lose gracefully and that she needed to work harder.
Do the horse world a favor and find another career.
So glad your daughter has learned to lose with grace and class. It looks like somebody else could have used that lesson in life.
Congrats and tell her chin up we all have those days….at least she didn’t have to be friends with the judge
I will never get used to how grown adults can have such horrid grammar and spelling. It really blows my mind. People think proper English is not important but it is, it really is…*sigh*
Si I gues ill jest tri too deel wit it cuz it doessnt loojk like it chaynge any tyme sooon. who new peeple coud be so dum butt I gues there our.
I’m the accused “troll” from the hajinc forum who had the balls to bring up the fact that riding this filly was wrong. After the thread had run its course, there were several people who told me that they agreed with what I had to say, but were too afraid to post anything since Ellie has a history of banning people who disagree with her. I was also told that there are a lot of people who hate her, but stick around to play the game. What a healthy environment.
The first comment I made was actually on the original thread that Ellie posted the videos bragging about her filly. It took less than 5 minutes for my post to be deleted, and I was sent a warning by one of her mods for making a “rude, inflammatory, and drama-causing post”. My post was blunt, but not intended to be rude; I was just stating my opinion. So to try and accommodate the mod’s request I reposted this:
“I didn’t intend for my post to come across as rude, so I will attempt to reword my thoughts.
It is my opinion, and proven fact, that horses ridden at such a young age will be much more likely to have related physical health issues as they age. At 18 months old, the filly in the OP is not physically developed enough to handle the weight of her adult rider and saddle. The vertebrae are the last bones to finish maturing, and the extreme strain that they are experiencing now while in such a ciritcal stage of development will likely cause issues with this filly’s health in the future. Not to mention the stress on other joints such as her knees, hocks, elbows and stifles, which are all still developing as well.
This forum is for a game, but a horse game, no less. I would hope that one of the most prominent members would be more willing to set a better example for other members.”
Again, it took only a few minutes for Ellie herself to intervene; she was the one who split the thread at my post, (in)advertently starting an entire thread on the topic of her 18 month old filly being ridden. Creating this new thread, of course, got people’s interest and by the time the thread had run its course there were around 400 views. Most of the comments were her groupies defending her, saying that riding this filly wasn’t a big deal, how they knew of numerous horses started as yearlings that were completely sound at 10 years old, etc. The couple of people who decided to “speak up” and agree with me did so in an extremely cautious, vague manner – it was obvious that they were afraid of getting banned.
Here’s a direct quote that Ellie wrote from the thread: “If you would like to make a post about why you feel horses should absolutely never be ridden under a certain age feel free. That is not the topic of the original post and certainly does not belong there.” But apparently, when I did the exact thing she told me I could “feel free” to do, and she didn’t like the discussion that followed, I got banned. And of course, within a couple of hours, everything had been deleted. Her mods (Gael4ce in particular) deleted everything for her, and jumped on here to defend her and say I was being a troll. Things she quoted me saying I didn’t even write. I did not once “vow to continue the behaviour”, nor did I say “I will not be silenced!” (both statements Gael4ce has quoted me saying). I simply told one of the mods that I was not afraid to state my opinion on a topic, just because the forum owner was involved. Even more ridiculous is this statement: “I felt she may as well have said “I will not be bothered with the rules that everyone is supposed to follow here.†But even that comment wasn’t the biggest factor in what got her banned.” Wow, Gael4ce, so just because YOU feel like I might as well have said something, it’s automatically true? Uh-huh. How convenient that the entire thread has magically disappeared, and no one can see how “rude”, “snitty”, “judgemental” and “troll-like” I was the entire time.
I was also sent a message on Facebook by Ellie Carroll stating that she has my address, parent’s names (lol, so?), and phone number, and that I “may be sued in the court of California, along with the blog owner for libel”. I encouraged her to call me to discuss things further, but *gasp* she didn’t. She replied on Facebook and told me how I had been rude, troll-like, bullied people into agree with me, called people names, and told me that I “had never even been willing to give talking it out a chance”. Well gee Ellie, maaaaybe if you didn’t block incoming private messages from the members of your forum, I would have been able to talk to you. Not once did she try to contact me to “talk things out” until I had been banned from both the forum and the game. Geeze, I didn’t know that a rational discussion about a controversial subject that SHE originally brought up makes me a troll. I even told her I was willing to talk to her in private, rather than come on here to defend myself from her brown nosing mods. The last I heard from her was 2 days ago, where she said I had “swooped down and made verbal attacks” on her. As probably one of the most rational people to even visit the Hajinc forums, I can assure everyone I didn’t personally attack her, unless telling her that I think it’s wrong to ride babies counts as a personal attack….
I know this is long, and I appreciate those who will take the time to read it and consider my “side” to the story.
“I was also sent a message on Facebook by Ellie Carroll stating that she has my address, parent’s names (lol, so?), and phone number, and that I “may be sued in the court of California, along with the blog owner for libelâ€.”
ROTFL, now that she knows the difference between libel and slander. You’re welcome, Ellie. I can’t wait to see the lawsuit. Amanda’s gonna be AWESOME to cross-examine. I’ve had plenty of fun doing it here on the blog and it can only be an even better time in person!
Snow Charm i think ETHICS and MORALS at this point is more important then a few spelling mistakes.
and FHOTD
Fabulous way of going around my questions again,
Its okay i understand that you wont ever actually stand up at a furturity or show and stand up for these poor babies supposedly being abused with us riding them.. AQHA would enjoy that! I am pretty sure you would feel very uncomfortable for you not being able to use the comp to voice your opinion..
I dont know what OPEN SHOWS you go to but hum around here OPEN SHOWS are now hosting AQHA approved classes and most OPEN SHOWS are shown with nothing but aqha trainers and clients. THEY are NOT BIGGER then the AQHA shows around here OR OUT OF STATE and when they are they are a COMBINATION OF AQHA APPROVED CLASSES…
Like i said you oviously DONT SHOW at all since you are not aware of how much money it takes to put on an approved aqha show and so when the show asks you to show the halter to show the all around to support the all around then thats because the halter futurity is the main sponsor and helps pay for awards.. And this goes for the Riding furturities and lunging…
That filly you have trashed turns 2 less then 2 months away and only has 5 rides on her, our decision to start her and this filly is just that good minded so i am sorry to hear you haven’t had the experience of having one that quiet and willing with two rides.. BUT I DO BELIEVE there is much worse out there then me ridiging an almost 2 yr old pleasure prospect 5 times… Perhaps people beating, abusive, starving, neglect .. if you dont agree with riding 2 yr olds thats your training and your thing what we do and how we show we at times do start them at two and thats my decision.
OK, I really am not going to spend my life responding to you. The fact that you can win stuff means nothing to me. So can Cleve Wells, and I genuinely believe that man should be stoned to death on pay-per-view after reading the numerous reports of how he treats horses.
You are flat out wrong and abusive for putting your ass on top of an 18 MONTH OLD BABY HORSE. Period.
That’s the topic, not what you’ve won or how popular you think you are. In my Constitutionally protected opinion, you’re a complete and total jerk, Amanda.
But for the record, my three year old was exactly that quiet on ride one, ride two, etc. I rode him bareback with a halter all the time, and still do. The difference is, he is five now and has PERFECTLY CLEAN X-RAYS. Yours won’t, and honey, I’d be happy to make you any bet you like on that.
Amanda said:
“Snow Charm i think ETHICS and MORALS at this point is more important then a few spelling mistakes.” First, let me edit this sentence. “Snow Charm, I think ethics and morals at this point are more important than a few spelling mistakes.” There’s so much more to language than just spelling. And I agree with your statement. Please define ethics and morals, and explain how they relate to your equine business. See, I don’t think you understand the terms, you are only trying to turn a quick buck by riding yearlings.
OMG – you really have no idea how simply awful you are making yourself look. Please, keep posting. Just let me refill my popcorn first. And FYI:
Many times people misuse the words “than” and “then.” Whether it’s because the words are pronounced similarly in some areas or because people simply don’t know the difference between them, it is important to know in which situations to choose each word. Follow this guide below, and then you’ll be using these words better than anyone you know!
1 – Use than as a word indicating comparison. When you are talking about a noun (thing, person, place or concept) being more, less, better, cooler, dumber, etc. in relation to another noun, the word than is necessary. Examples:
A) There are more onions than scallions in your fridge.
B) Scott was sicker than a dog last week
2 – Use then as a word indicating time. When you want to tell about a sequence of events or are giving instructions in a step-by-step order, the word then is necessary. Examples:
A) First there were four, and then there were two.
B) Wash the clothes, then put them in the dryer.
And remember! Google is your friend!
I wish you peope wouldn’t leave nasty comments on the video – then it gets deleted and us latecomers can’t see it.
I think it’s foolish to ride any horse under 24 months old. I haven’t quite decided if it’s foolish to ride any horse under 36 months of age yet.
Fair enough. In general, I just look at it this way – the longer you wait, the lower your risk.
I started mine at 35 months. He’s 5 now and his x-rays are clean.
At least two of the two year olds I started back in the day when I didn’t know better have navicular.
In addition, I’ve seen MANY 2 year old futurity winners that are creaky to the point of clicking when they walk by 5.
So that’s what my opinions are based upon (in addition to the veterinary research on the topic).
Legally the horse is 2 on January 1, 2011. But what is the actual “birth” date of the horse? I think others have asked this question but I have yet to see a response.
My understanding is she was 18 months at the time the video was shot. I can, of course, look it up on AQHA if anyone recalls the reg. name.
I wanna know. I think the registered name is Just to See U Smile.
The filly, registered name “Just to See U Smile”, was born April 7, 2009. So no, she won’t be “two years old in 2 months”.
Man……I’m so glad I found the fugly blog
I thought I was the only person out there who was tired of these kinds of people! I’m tearing up just thinking of all the smart friends I have all over the interwebs…….<3 you guys!
Ellie also needs to learn the difference between “then” and “than”.
Sweet gods. After the video and reading the above, I am embarrassed that this, ‘equine people,’ shares my first name.
I just got on my new, 3.5 y/o baby girl for the first time Sunday. I am obviously doin’ it wrong.
I never did understand why people say horses must be started young or they will be too difficult.
Heck, I started a 5 y/o stallion this summer who had spend the last 4 and half years of his life sitting unhandled in a field. He had been halter broke as a weanling which saved me some trouble. Once he was easy to handle he got gelded. Gave him some time off to heal and then started training him. By the end of the summer he was packing me around happy as a clam. At least now he’s a lot less likely to end up in can.
The youngest I have ever backed a horse is an honest 3 years old even then is was extremely easy 18 months is just mind boggling. I figure there is plenty to do on the ground so there really is no reason to start earlier. It’s a shame there is so much money in the 2 y/o futurities. The all mighty dollar wins again.
In countries like India 3-4 mth old baby fillys and colts are made to run alongside their moms in a cart all day long in order to “train them” and also so the mommy can work and also stop at times to feed the baby when the almighty owner thinks she can get a break….Boy I wish I could ban anyone from having an animal in these eastern countries….with the exception of probably the middle east (saudia,kuwait etc”)where arabian horses are treated like royalty.
I honestly can’t believe a young horse would be getting hock injections, a horse I used to have was a an OTTB and he had to have hock injections, but he was in his late teens.
It happens all of the time, especially in any event that starts competition when the horse is two or three. Part of why I had to quit.