If the horse is scared shitless, it’s not art!
Oct 20 2010
Someone on the AuctionHorses board just adopted a horse and she has been told his issues may result from being trained as a “dancing” horse. She didn’t know what that was, so now is as good a time as any to feature this very educational video!
Before you comment, let me state MY position: Certain cultures (the American culture IS one of them) have certain practices THAT SUCK. Commenting on those practices and working to end them DOES NOT MEAN that you hate the entire culture or are a racist. For example: The Mexican culture includes some awesome things like taking care of elderly relatives in the home, fantastic food and margaritas. It also includes some disgusting, reprehensible things like horse tripping and horse dancing. If you think everyone who is Mexican sucks, you are an asshat. If you think that everyone who criticizes anything a Mexican does is a racist, you are ALSO an asshat. If you are a Mexican who is opposed to horse tripping and horse dancing, this blog isn’t about you. If you can’t understand these concepts, sorry, I can’t draw them in picture book form for you. You will have to sit here and contemplate ’til you figure it out. 
Bad horse training is bad horse training. Bad horse training includes anything that confuses, regularly frightens or intimidates the horse. Now don’t get me wrong – I have NO issue with the horse being good and frightened for 3 seconds after he kicks at you or tries to buck you off because he wants to run back to his buddies. I am a fan of the well-timed, brief spanking when it is truly merited. But if your training results in a horse that is headshy, avoids human contact, or is sour and angry and fried, it is bad training and “but it’s my culture” is no excuse at all. If you want a dancing horse, they have a cruelty-free way (well, barring the Rollkur Radicals) to do it. It’s called dressage and it takes many years of serious study to learn. You do not get to try to reproduce the same moves by whipping the living shit out of horses and scaring them to death, and then escape criticism by screaming that it’s your culture and any criticism means the person commenting is a racist. Not on THIS blog, anyway!
It really brings up an even bigger issue…what is abuse? Like that old saying about pornography, I think most of us know it when we see it, but how do you legislate that? It’s not easy, but think about it – the law has, for the most part (yes, I KNOW there are exceptions!), been able to see the difference between a well-deserved spanking and child abuse. This is the same thing. Don’t be so afraid of getting bombed by PETA for carrying a dressage whip that you fear ANY legislation that limits physical punishment of an animal. And remember, the best way to control what laws you’ll be subjected to is to get involved as they are created! Write to your representatives, attend hearings when possible. If you want to see things change in a way that you like, be one of the people making the changes!
(Side note: Yes, we are going to have a bitch about politics off topic day soon. My head is about to explode with the campaign ads in California. They are ridiculous.)
I’ve talked about this so much in the past that I don’t really need to rehash the whole subject again of WHY you don’t do this. So I will just say, Norma, you are an idiot and should NOT own young horses. EVER AGAIN.
I usually use this space to show you an adoptable horse, but I want to talk today about a way to help if you are unable to adopt. Shiloh Horse Rescue offers sponsorships Basically, you just pay for the feed and care of one of their sanctuary horses, shown here:
These are horses Shiloh is not going to adopt out because of their physical issues. You can sponsor for $25 one time, or $25 each week – whatever you can afford is fine and very welcomed! And let’s face it, many of us spend $25 a week on coffee, or for those of you in college, beer. So why not help a horse with it this week, instead?
212 comments to “If the horse is scared shitless, it’s not art!”
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What I want to know is WHERE/HOW these abusive, peabrained asshats get such NICE horses to ruin? Seriously. It just makes me sick to see “dancing” horses. Its very hard not to rocket into the air and uppercut those bastards out of the saddle.
Oh trust me, there is some big money behind perpetuating this abuse. These people regularly acquire Andalusians. They are not getting THEM free off of Craigslist.
I know it.. I saw at least one friesian in there as well. I’m certianly not saying one breed deserves more than another, but those are expensive horses. I feel like it would be the equivalent of buying yourself a lamborghini and then off-roading it. Why would you want to screw something up like that? I’m plugging along on my beloved little fugly gelding while these bozos are wrecking the kinds of horses I used to dream of as a little girl.
And also, Norma.. Sit on a pin you idiot. >:(
I wondered the same thing while watching the video! All the horses are gorgeous….well fed, well groomed, so obviously they spend a lot of money on their horses. All for what……to ruin them? Crazy!
That video was beyond depressing. With this sort of stuff all I have to ask is why? Comparing a proper ‘piaffe’ from a dressage horse and this ‘dancing’ I don’t see the draw of the ‘dancing’. You can clearly see the horses are not comfortable, it can cause them lasting injury and it has no grace to it frankly the horses seem to be jumping all over the place. So simply put why? It’s like the stuff done to TWH to ‘exadurate’ their gait, it causes harm and distress it’s not worth it. Why do this and terrosise and ruin a horse?
I wonder how many accidents have happened because of this?
Holy crap. I only got about 3 minutes into the video before I just had to quit… the looks on those poor horses faces as they were being whipped and hit in the legs was just too much.
And, Norma… if the horse is just a yearling and has been broke for FOUR MONTHS was the poor thing even weaned before you started breaking it down? *sigh* This type of stuff just boggles my mind…
http://36andsingle.blogspot.com/
I was just about to comment on the exact same thing. There is no reason under heaven that ANY yearling should already be saddle broke. I mean come on, its a BABY, let it actually BE a Baby, and finnish growing up!!!
We had a local woman who put a pony bridle, with bit, on a 5 month old, and was using her kids pony saddle to start to ‘train’ the foal. Luckily she got picked up by animal control for cruelty (The foals mouth was all bruised up and he had trouble nursing) and was restricted from owning horses again. That and no stable in town would rent a stall to her.
Well good for animal control for DOING something!
I saw ONE, as in a single, horse that didn’t look like his brain was about to explode while he was “dancing”. It was in the first clip with the poor buckskin with the braided mane, the guy was off to the left.
One method I did not see (probably because it’s not highly controversial because it doesn’t involve beating the horse until it’s brain is a pile of terrified soup) is sitting on the horse and using the lash of the dressage whip to “tickle” the long bones. The horse will reflexively raise the foot.
I really don’t care what country you’re from, if you’re tying a horse to a post and whipping it to teach it this garbage (for what?!) that’s wrong. In many African nations it’s believed that by having sex with a virgin it will cure disease and prevent you from getting it, leading to the rape of little kids, there was an e-mail sent around several years ago about a nine-month-old girl that was victimized. That’s part of their “culture” too but that doesn’t mean the government doesn’t step in and stop it because it’s WRONG. I know someone who thinks smoking pot is fine because it’s “part of his culture”.
Culture is dynamic and changes as the world changes. This is cruel, change it. Then you can show what a great culture you have for finding alternative methods that aren’t cruel. Of course, once the horse’s body is as broken as his mind just ship it to the slaughter plant, right? I wonder if they’d do things differently if they had to hang onto the horse for 20 years.
OT, you mentioned before what to wear when cleaning up barbed wire? I found my property line and found with it some old barbed wire back from when the house was surrounded by cow pasture. I need to get this cleaned up ASAP.
Barbed wire will bite you hard! I recommend at least 2 layers of pants, like jeans over leggings, and two pair of really thick work gloves (most feed stores have them.). A Carhart type jacket is good protection for your upper body.
When you see what it does to YOUR leg, you see why horses absolutely can’t be out on it. Nasty stuff.
Heck, I found a footlong piece of barbed wire that must have come in one of the round bales (this property was passed on for generations and never had barbed wire fencing) and that thing was nasty! How did I find it? Walking through the pasture to retrieve a lost halter, it got caught on my pant leg and before I realized it, it punctured my Achilles tendon… THROUGH my muck boots! It’s disgusting that people considered (and still consider) it to be proper fencing.
Fortunately my horse is safely boarded far, far away from the barbed wire that is lying on my property. We have to build pastures, tear the barn apart and rebuild it so it’ll be a few years.
This is REALLY old fencing. Up in New England (you can see similar in Ireland as well) when people would turn out their cows the cows would churn up rocks so they’d bring the rocks to the edge of the fields, making these neat little rock walls everywhere. In my part of Maine they’d plant Maple trees along the rock walls. Two of the maple trees out on the property line have barbed wire (that someone was nice enough to remove the barbs from so now it’s just wire) 6″ into the trunk and the tree grew AROUND the wire.
I will make sure I layer up when I start messing around with this. Out of curiosity is there a better way to find old barbed wire that may or may not be partially or fully buried other than stepping in it or tripping over it or getting your tools caught up in it when you build your fence? I.e., metal detector, magnet, etc?
Ok…. So yes Barb wire is brutal to work with and you need heavy clothing but, no one has mentioned eye protection my father in law is blind in one eye from a piece that whipped up and punctured his eye. Unfortunately where I come from this is the most common fencing used. Its cheap so any time the RM needs to put up a new fence its barbed wire….. We’re getting a new fence this year as part of a deal for giving up some land for the new road and that’s what we’re getting. I’m taking the fence for the posts and replacing the wire. Obviously not horses safe but I have a toddler too…. That being said our current fence is NOT toddler proof and its only a matter of time before she gets in with the horses because she really likes them. They’re good and will let her pet them but she can’t be in there alone. So we’re looking for a wire mesh type fencing that is horse and toddler safe but not insanely expensive we have a lot of fencing to do.
This is an excellent point about barbed wire…that stuff could easily take out an eye and I wish I’d thought of it. I’m glad you posted that. Sorry about your FIL!
When I was a kid, we had barbed wire fencing (yes, for horses. Yes, I kick myself about it now.) and I was in the habit of climbing through the strands instead of going through the gate if I didn’t have to. One day I was doing this (pretty sure I must’ve been in shorts) when I thought I heard my dad yelling for me so I whipped on through the fence faster than I should have so I could run up there.
Yeah, there’s a very long scar along the shin bone of my left leg now. I didn’t need stitches, but still.
Anyway, yep, barbed wire bites.
Barbed wire bites…oh yes, I found that out suddenly one day too. Not only does it bite, but it can be invisible too! Especially when you’re 7 years old and looking behind you while running full-tilt to get away from “it”!
Also, how embedded into the Mexican Culture can the “Dancing Horse” Crap possibly be? I mean, up until a few hundred years ago they didn’t even know what a horse looks like, not to mention they had never seen it “piaffe”, didn’t all that get there with European Settlers, just like it did with Australia?
*grunts*
Then again, how can we stop it? If it mostly takes place in Mexico, what influence do we have on their laws? And I have never EVER heard of the Mexican Government giving a flying *uck about animal cruelty laws or stopping abuse from happening? Do they even HAVE laws like that? (I am asking because I actually don’t know, I’m far, far away. Anyone care to educate me?)
I think this video goes a long way to educating people who think Dancing Horses are pretty or whatever, but I still don’t know what to do about it.
Somebody come up with a plan and we’ll get the Fugly community behind it ^^
Oh, and say WHAT that horse has been under saddle for 4 months and its a YEARLING now?
I’ll be waiting until it is some less ungodly hour over there and then calling that “lady”, asking her if she is freaking serious.
Let’s get a law introduced that won’t let horses be broken to saddle until they’re at LEAST 2 years old. I know that 3 or 4 is the ideal age, but let’s face it, that would hurt the racing industry too much, so it won’t happen :S
Horse dancing has become VERY embedded in the Mexican culture, along with Mexican rodeo events like horse tripping. There is a LOT of it going on in Washington state, due to the rural nature of the state and the high Mexican population. Mexican men are the ones who LOVE horses. They are just as horse crazy as all of us 40 & 50 yr old American women. But they were raised with different training methods that have been passed down for several generations. Mexican rodeos aren’t advertised, you may not know they are happening, but they are all over the place, and they take place every Sunday in lots of communities in this country too.
I have seen many Mexican men proudly show off their dancing horse, and show me the training methods they use with absolutely no signs of embarrassment. Andalusians are Spanish horses, and the Mexican men seem to gravitate to them. They are baroque-moving horses with a high degree of natural collection, which unfortunately makes them the perfect target for dancing horse training. Andalusians have a naturally good temperament, intelligence and easy trainablility. They cross well with Quarter horses to produce the Azteca, an original Mexican breed that is an excellent ranch horse, and can be taken to the rodeo to dance on Sunday. Even the one Mexican trainer that I know of who trains for whites calls his method Western Horsemens’ Dressage. His methods are not as rough as they used to be, now that he has a different audience, but he still had a totally wild mustang off the range doing piaffe within 90 days. TOTALLY unacceptable.
The Mexican men spend their money on trucks, horses, saddles. Most of them work hard for their money, so they really do realize the value of their horses. You won’t see a Mexican man riding a mare. Most of the dancing horses are stallions, since the macho thing is a man riding a stallion. The truth is that they don’t have the horse education that would tell them their methods are cruel, they just have generations of using the same methods to produce results that they like. This is NOT a defense of the men or their methods, I really prefer the European method of bringing a horse to collection. Not one of the dancing horses in the video was doing a true piaffe/passage. There was at least one horse, though, who was being groundworked in the true european style to learn piaffe, the scenes were intersperse with the scenes of Mexican horses jumping all over the place.
As to how to stop it, I don’t know if there is a solution besides education. Most of the men really love their horses, it’s not that they want to hurt or cripple them, they just don’t know any better, and the methods do work to produce a dancing horse within a fairly short time that they can take to parades and rodeos.
I really like the mexican people. You will not hear me criticize them for being here, or not speaking English or having lots of kids or anything. The fact is if you want certain jobs done well, hire a mexican. Most of them are hardworking guys, and really family oriented. And as horse crazy as me! To me, horse dancing is kinda like western pleasure, or rolkur, but to a greater degree. I hate western pleasure and the training that goes into it almost as much as I hate horse dancing. I hate Rolkur, and see NO reason at all that it should ever be used, especially be people (dressage trainer/riders) who should know that nothing good ever comes from extreme methods and shortcuts. But, it’s all a matter of degree. The Mexican men probably laugh at the idea that it should take several years to develop a horse to the point it can do piaffe/passage well.
Most of the above is accurate. I lived in Mexico for quite a while. I worked at a large and very well known stable that was in the town I lived in. The barn had a lot of AQHA that were imported from the US in addition to Andalusians and Andalusian crosses. On the weekends I would ride with several different groups of Mexicans. I never once saw a Dancing horse or horse tripping. Most people were into racing and trail riding. The men were very Macho and often difficult to get along with. Some of the younger ones, however, were more than accomodating and a pleasure to ride with. The men did ride mares and would breed them, too. There was never a shortage of buyers for a horse (unlike the US).
I did attend a horse gaming event in Mexico. It didn’t involve any horse abuse. Most of the guys there went to drink Corona and show off their Appaloosas, quarter horses, TBs, etc. There was one activity involving chickens that I didn’t agree with, but I won’t go into detail here.
The one thing I despised in Mexico is that the horses are almost never turned out. They are usually stalled and then taken out to either be tied to a post or turned out in an arena for an hour. There is a high crime rate in Mexico so horses could not be left out unattended or they could be stolen quite easily. On a positive note, the men do take great pride in the appearance of the horses. As a result they are groomed daily, have their feet done, and are generally in good condition. They are usually worked (lunged or ridden) every other day.
We had a young (18-20?) groom at our barn from Mexico who grew up on a horse farm down there and was the kindest, gentlest horseman I have ever met. I was a groom too, so we worked side by side a lot turning out, cleaning stalls, etc., but he outdid me in his skills by far because it was like he was telepathic with them! He could get a hot TB to stand in a bucket of epsom salt dead still for 20 minutes by stroking his forehead. When I tried it, all I got was very wet, salty jeans and a smug horse with an unsoaked foot. He was also outstanding with the young ones. I hope this is a sign that wherever he was from and whatever he grew up learning down there, there are places that teach gentle, understanding horsemanship and not this absolute shit from the video.
The place I groomed also had a couple of Mexican grooms and it was the exact same way! Those guys were *amazing* with the horses… I was so jealous! Neither really spoke any English but we tried to talk to each other, and the older guy *did* try to explain about dancing horses… I didn’t quite get what he was trying to say and assumed he was talking about dressage
The one guy used to sneak-ride some of his favorites… I caught him a couple times but didn’t say anything as he wasn’t hurting the horses any. I was pretty impressed… very quiet seat and hands, very subtle with cues (didn’t tack up either – just bareback with a lead rope). Actually, that’s what I was noticing in the video as well – those guys were sitting those scared-shitless horses like they weren’t moving at all o.O … makes you wonder what it would be like without the ignorance.
The “Azteca” isn’t their original horse – the Lusitano was. The Andalusian didn’t split off until the 50s to become it’s own breed. The horses look different because they were bred for different purposes but genetically they are identical. And Andalusians aren’t easy to collect, they are harder for the same reason they LOOK collected. They have a very short back (which makes for very powerful bucking) so their “normal” stride reaches further underneath them than a horse with a longer back. It’s quite challenging to get them round and collected.
I spent a year researching Spanish breeds, I thought an Andalusian was my dream horse.
Wow, that was quite an educating post actually.
It does explain some things. However, it doesn’t exactly boost my opinion of the over-all setting that makes it ok to whip something on the legs until it obeys. I mean, do they do that to their sons to get them to “dance”? Maybe they would think twice if they knew exactly how much it hurt.
It could also be used as a way to train women to stay at the sink and do house work? (I’m a woman, just being sarcastic here) I mean, apparently it’s perfectly acceptable to do this to their horses, whom they love. So, what about the rest of the family?
Do they do it to their old people when they become incontinent to try and stop them from whetting themselves?
What’s the difference?
I do agree, however, that it is not much worse than what Western Pleasure, some TWH stuff, even some dressage riders put their horses through.
I don’t understand how “Rollkur” and this stuff are spoken of as if they culd be compared to each other. Most of these guys ARE “Rollkur”-ing their horses.
It’s like comparing “Whipping” and this crap
And somehow, I don’t really thing education will work, because as you said, most of those guys are incredibly macho and won’t believe that what they are doing is hurting their animal on a long-term basis. Maybe the government should specifically sponsor some of them to become horse vets with a lot of attention paid to prostate cancer in horses (lol), leg injuries and whatever else is affected by the whole “dancing” thing.
Maybe they will listen if “one of them” tells them, if you know what I mean? Like, a guy who used to do the same shit as them (and preferably was/is well respected) and now tells them to do things different because its actually hurting their precious horses? Maybe I’m just naive
Don’t you just get overwhelmed at the stupidity, lack of education and all the crap that goes on in this world DESPITE intelligence and education being present.
Jeeeeeez, I think introducing a license to have children and own animals (or just to deal with living things in general) would be a really excellent idea!
I don’t know where it came from, but it is deeply embedded. Not long ago a guy was flirting with me and tried to impress me by telling me about his family’s “dancing” horses. Said they ride in the Rose Parade every year. He told me about how they’re all stallions, how he starts working a stallion by grabbing its balls to let it know that he’s “a male, just like the stallion”, and that within three months he can have a stallion so well trained it would be gentle enough for any lady to ride. Unbelievable!!!
For what the horse does under compulsion, as Simon also observes, is done without understanding; and there is no beauty in it either, any more than if one should whip and spur a dancer.
~Xenophon – The Art of Horsemanship
Don’t be so afraid of getting bombed by PETA for carrying a dressage whip that you fear ANY legislation that limits physical punishment of an animal.
I appreciate you pointing this out. Yesterday I rode in a pair of equitation spurs. My legs are short, the shanks are long. It allows me to use an aid without having to contort my body. For a moment I was a little concerned about the reaction I might get from the English riders in the arena. My concerns were put to rest when we could all see my mare working relaxed on loose rein. If anyone had asked me about the spurs, I would have been more than happy to have a non confrontational dialogue about why and how I was using them.
I can’t see why anyone would complain. I mean, you and the mare were relaxed and working well together. It’s not like you were crankin’ and yankin’ her, and her sides were not sore and bleeding.
With certain, obvious exceptions, most horse equipment does have a purpose (spurs included), and obviously, you know how to use them.
I can certainly respect someone who knows how to use tools properly than one who tries to kill a gnat with an atom bomb.
That Shiloh sponsorship wouldn’t be a bad idea for a Christmas present. “I fed a resuce horse in your name for one week” maybe include a picture of the horse.
I agree! That is a great $25 gift – like for those of you who have Secret Santa stuff at work, things like that.
I attended a wedding recently where the reception info card said something like, “The bride and groom feel as though your presence is gift enough, however, for those of you with generous hearts, a small donation to [insert charity- Susan G Komen, I think] in lieu of a gift would be appreciated by those in need.”
I didn’t attend that wedding, but I did send in a donation anyway. I thought that was great (plus, I HATE bridal registries. I mean, I get their purpose, but I hate gift-grubbing in general).
Those practices are cruel, and the results are tacky and ugly. Those horses are clearly just jumping to avoid pain/being hit. I see alot of bolting/rearing and bucks there. The guy on the buckskin needs to take it down about 30 notches. I don’t understand people who think so long as they can stay on a freaked out horse it’s okay to present it in public (seeing him in the middle of that arena).
That reminds me of a side rant- I can’t stand going to shows where people have totally freaked out horses and they don’t care the effect it has on everyone else there. If you get to a schooling show and your horse is truly freaked out SLOW DOWN. Lunge him, walk him, let him get used to his surroundings. Don’t think staying on (not falling off) means your horse is safe to be out and about- he’s not ready if he’s out of control. Sometimes even without a whip or chain we are causing unneccesary fear and terror in our horses. I had the unfortunate experience of being at a show with a guy who had a frightened horse who he rammed into me with several times. He was wearing jingle bob spurs which I think were further scaring his mare (she was clearly very green) but hey, he thought he looked snappy. The judge actually asked him to remove them because horses in classes were terrified when they heard his stupid jingling coming up at an out of control pace, they knew they were going to get hit. When I exited the ring, he yelled “train your horse” because he was sure I had complained and gotten him kicked out. Apparently he didn’t notice I had won the class.
Be slow, be kind, it pays off. It’s also the considerate thing to do for other riders. I am glad the Auction Horses horse got adopted into a good home- hooray!!
I hear you on the freaked out horses at shows. Last month I took my green mare to a fun show for exposure (we didn’t enter any classes, just walked the grounds and spent some time in the warm up ring, she was great). Anyway there was a gelding that was out of his mind there. The women that brought him had to take turns holding him all day (and by holding I mean letting him trot tiny circles around them and/or barging into them and other bystanders). The poor thing was high headed, wide eyed and soaked in sweat- pretty obvious he was upset. They tried entering him in a few classes, and were either excused or exited on their own. If he had been mine I would have been so mortified.
@ktibb
I agree! Unfortunately it’s not just at shows where I see stressed out horses! I went to a public riding arena in my area with a friend, Katrina, who had her friend there as well. Katrina’s friend breeds Morgans and he was riding a really stressed out Morgan gelding. He started out by running the living day-lights out of that horse until it was covered from head to toe with sweat within a half-an-hour. Anyone with eyes could see that that horse was stressed (nostrils flaring, pawing at the ground when standing, pacing, etc). There were kids riding horses in the same ring and I didn’t think it was very safety conscious to run a horse like that in the same place. So I tried to tell him that his horse was a nervous wreck (in a joking manner so I could lead up to the fact that maybe his horse should take it easy) and all I got back was angry criticism. He told that I didn’t know anything about horses, and that his horse didn’t like being ridden like a ‘sissy’. I have a hard time not being prejudiced against Western Riders (and I couldn’t help but see that most of the abusive dancing riders in the video were Western riders) because I know there are a ton of good ones out there (as well as crappy English riders), but why do I always run into the arrogant, inconsiderate, run-their-horses-into-the-ground, Western Riders? *fume*
Also I have to say thanks for showing this video! I’ve learned a new thing today. I didn’t know that such a thing called Dancing horses even existed and the cruel techniques that can be used on a Dancing horse. Don’t know what I’ll do with this knowledge in the horse world yet, but I’m sure it will come in handy when the time comes!
I agree–there is no use sitting on an out of control horses just because you’re in a show or think you have something to prove. Have some respect for the other people in the ring. I pulled my young dumb…uuuhh warmblood out of a halter class because the wind switched directions or something and he was just inconsolable over the fact. Instead of ruining the class for everyone, by insisting he stay in the ring, I excused myself.
Agh…. Similar complaint….. Snotty hot headed teenage girl who gallops her equally hot headed snotty gelding(?) around the arena while the little kids are out warming up their ponies for beginner lessons. NO BODY thinks you look cool when you’re out there getting all the horses worked up and scaring little kids. Who ever she is…. She sucks and I don’t know why the instructor hasn’t given you shit for this….
Where I live, there is a plethora of asshats and their dancing horses. Out when we are trail riding and we want the know the asshats from the regular Charros…the hint is a green or yellow garden hose that has been cut and attached to their saddles. And those are the guys one wants to stay clear from, and normally they are riding stallions already on the hariy edge of exploding. While I get the idea of wanting an animated horse (or being flashy) from time to time these asshats keep them “jacked” up the entire time of being ridden is NOT good horsemanship, that is a sign of EGO and look at me and my pretty horse. When you see these horses at the end of the day these poor souls come back physically and mentally exhausted.
I don’t see anything wrong with teaching a horse to dance (or any other trick training).
What’s wrong here is the METHOD.
The message that needs to be sent is not ‘you can’t have a dancing horse’ but ‘there is a right way to have a dancing horse’. Then their culture is not damaged, the horses are happy, everyone wins.
I can’t view the video and admit I don’t understand *exactly* what they’re asking these horses to do, but there has to be a humane way to teach it. (Horse tripping, on the other hand, I agree needs to be stopped). And that way has to be introduced to their culture as much as possible from within.
It’s no different from anything else we get horses to do for us, surely. Even rodeo broncs can be trained a right way and a wrong way. The issue seems to be that the wrong way is ‘what everyone does’.
In the video they were demonstrating piaffe and then this “dancing” crap. And also demonstrating the differences in training practices… but I only got a few minutes into it before I couldn’t watch any longer.
http://36andsingle.blogspot.com/
On my comment meant to go to comment page was not replying to anyone…but think I hit wrong icon..:)
“I don’t see anything wrong with teaching a horse to dance (or any other trick training).
What’s wrong here is the METHOD.”
I agree with this statement in general — but when for the sake of argument I take it further, I don’t know what to think! For example — I don’t see anything wrong with teaching a horse to run up a ramp and jump down into a deep pool of water. What’s wrong here is the METHOD.
BUT — personally — I do have a problem with that. Any thoughts or comments? At what point/where DO we draw the line in terms of what we ask horses to do? We say jump and they say how high, but really, how high should we ask them to jump? How many weeks should we trailer them from horse show to horse show without a real break or any turnout? We love them but ask so much of them. Why is that? Humans are much harder to understand than horses.
Great topic!
I am the first to admit I’m no horse trainer, nor am I a professional rider.
I was fortunate enough to take dressage (on a lesson horse) from a Dutch rider/trainer who came to the US for a year to give classes.
He game me a pearl of wisdom I’ve never forgotten, and apply it to all ANIMALS: “If it will hurt either you or the horse, don’t do it.”
It may seem simple or stupid to some, more advance horse people here, but it’s where I personally draw the line.
Just my opinion.
I don’t think that’s stupid at all. In fact, I think there are a LOT of “pro” riders out there who could use that phrase stamped on their foreheads. Like the guy who got busted for putting shards of sharp plastic in his horses’ polo wraps for the grand prix jumpers so they wouldn’t knock a rail. Or all of those jerk hunter trainers on the A circuit who drug the crap out of their horses so that kids who can’t ride their way out of a paper bag can make it around a course. Being a good rider doesn’t mean you have a good heart, but you can be a perfectly average rider and have a great one. I love this thought that you posted. Thanks
The problem is not just the method, but what it asks of the horse physically.
In dressage, piaffe is asked for only at the very highest level. Years of training, strengthening, & suppling go by before the horse is required to piaffe. It is a very difficult movement, and hard on the muscles, tendons, and joints. Yes, some well bred horses show talent for piaffe early on but the best trainers aren’t asking for it until the horse has been developed as an athlete and has learned how to be exceptionally well balanced under a rider.
It’s based on a natural movement, sure… everyone at some point has seen a horse jig a bit when excited. But asking for it under the weight of a rider, at a precise rhythm, and for many steps almost in place… that is asking a lot and there’s a reason why classical horsemanship doesn’t ask for it until the horse is highly trained.
A horse trained to ‘dance’ at a young age, even kindly, risks injury. If your goal is to have a horse that is sound and healthy for his entire natural life, ‘dancing’ is not a hot idea.
Rushing, not preparing properly and taking short cuts in training still constitutes METHOD. And in what sense is this any different from two year old futurities? (Other than excessive use of the whip to do something that could probably be trained just as well with a dressage whip as a pointer and a bunch of treats). It’s just another symptom of ‘must have it now’. Of people rushing. I WISH it was worse than a lot of stuff that goes on in the US show/rodeo arena, but it’s…honestly not. Sigh.
I bet it could be truly spectacular if done right, though…and that makes it worse if anything.
It’s certainly not comparable to horse diving.
You know, I was watching the video and I think the horses are just as confused as you are. With the exception of one horse that wasn’t about to keel over and die from fright, they were all just reacting so they wouldn’t get hurt. I have done a lot of dog obedience which kind of runs over into horse training (and vice versa) and I find a lot of methods apply in both situations. I had excellent experiences with a professional dog handler and my Dressage trainer is phenomenal (of course I say that because I haven’t had a lesson with her in several years – she’s BRUTAL but it’s oh so good!). The ONE thing they agree on: Engage the brain. You don’t want your horse to just REACT because it’s afraid. You want the horse to RESPOND to your aids because you have taken the time to train it. Most horses I’ve met have been brilliant learners, some slower than others depending on what you’re working on. There is absolutely no need for this kind of training. Even without going through the levels of Dressage to properly get your horse mentally and physically fit enough for the Piaffe and passage you can train your horse to trot in place for kicks. Without frying his brain. The “dancing” horses were reacting – they see a whip they start jumping around like their feet are on fire because that’s all they know to do to keep from being whipped. The Dressage horses are responding to aids after years of careful training built on a solid foundation.
Anyone else notice that the “Dancing” horses were using Rollkur? Maybe Anky was right and she isn’t the one who developed this…maybe she jacked it from these guys. The gray that had his head to far up in the air that his chest was actually further out than his neck was heartbreaking. I know I can’t breathe with my chin tied to my chest…why are people so stupid?
But i think that was the point of the video: if you want a “dancing horse”, you put in the hours (and years) with dressage training, not beat them until they are sweating and shaking and afraid to keep their feet still. The sad thing is, these guys are apparently using Andalusions– horses with lovely baroque conformation, who make beautiful dressage horses.
“Machismo” (in any culture) seems to go hand in hand with “stupid and abusive.”
That was the point. There’s a right way, and it’s called “dressage.”
I agree with you; there was a vaquero and his horse at the Grand National Rodeo several years ago whose horse danced and yet was not stressed, fearful or unhappy. During his performance, there were many times the horse was at liberty and was still working beautifully with the vaquero.
On the other hand there are a number of “vaqueros” who board at the ranch right next to ours who are close to the worst of what this video shows. All of my horses are terrified of them. It amazes me how quickly my horses pick up on their horse’s fear (my horses are not spooky or nervous horses either).
Wow… Way off topic, but this is about sickening… Anyone in Western PA looking for a cheap Appy?
http://classifieds.pennswoods.net/classifieds/viewad.cgi?adindex=924543
Is that better than “we’re going to drop her off at auction and she’ll go to slaughter”? *shakes head* Asshats.
In ancient Chinese dynasty, so the legend goes, was an emperor who loved to have dancing horses. So he brought the beautiful hotblood horses out of the middle east, the ones with the high tails and the arched necks and the beautiful large dark expressive eyes….and tiny muzzles, and dished faces. And he decreed his horses should dance to music and the trainers should train them for this. And so they did. But one day the Emperor did not like dancing horses any more and yet the music was playing and when he decreed to the horses themselves STOP DANCING they did not do so because the music was compelling and beautiful and they knew their job and were doing it, and no Emperor crying stop dancing was going to make them stop. So the Emperor then danced them to death with whipping, every last horse.
And yet this was a so-called “civilized” culture, even in the ancient dynasties.
Wrong is wrong, culture be damned.
I just really wanted to see on of those horses kick the trainers in the head. Sometimes, I think it’s bad for the horses who have good temperaments. I think that’s also a factor in why there seems to be so much more abusive training techniques in, say AQHA (the crank and yank) and TWH than you would with, say, Arabians or Thoroughbreds. It is a rare Ayrab or TB who would put up with that crap for long. Whereas QHs and TWHs are (generally) sweet and docile and “ammy friendly” breeds, so they get the short end of the stick in the training department.
I don’t know, I grew up riding arabs, and I saw my fair shair of “crank and yank” in the warm ups. Unfortunately, because many arabs are smallish, you see a lot of BIG men who just muscle them around with nasty bits and long spurs – it was every bit as ugly as some of the things I’ve seen at QH shows (though few things are as ugly as what they do to the big lick TWH). Others would just work them for hours and hours at the shows to the point that they were foamy, exhausted and sour by the time they’d get in the ring.
Bad trainers happen everywhere. Though I’d admit many arabs have a way of outsmarting a lot of riders = )
Yes. Unfortunately for QH’s, they tend to have a long-suffering, patient disposition. This leads to their being abused more often and in more severe ways.
Whereas the Arabs and TB’s just get sent to slaughter when they blow up. I’m not sure which is worse.
Pleading ignorance, I never heard of this horse (BEATING) dancing before and wish I didn’t now. I see barbaric culture, dominant male show-off macho behavior as the key to this practice. Ego rules and horses are just a means to their arrogance. Some of the horses tried so hard to please and others were in such a state of panic, they had zero idea what was being asked of them. Maybe the lucky ones can just mentally check out but I’d hate to see what happend to the black Fresian (?) that was losing his mind. Mr Macho probably hauled him off to slaughter citing the horse’s ‘stupidity’. A-hole.
I watched a horserace a few years ago where the favorite was whipped left-handed in the stretch and cut clear across the other side of the racetrack and checked out of the race. I got some amusement out of that. Smart horse. Any horse can learn to piaffe, spin, bow, drive, whatever with appropriate training. And it can be the exact same method for all the horses. What needs to change on the trainer’s part is the timing, firmness and feel of the aids. A TB will need softer aids than a Percheron but the aids don’t ever change – just the intensity! It’s called RESPECT which I equate to fear with understanding, and TRUST. Trust me to be patient with you and respect me enough to work for me, but fear me if you choose to dominate me. It works for every horse.
I’m not saying that only men can be brutal but I am saying that men, by nature, are more demonstrative of power than women. Men are the hunters, women are the nurturers. What those men are doing is nothing short of savage in my not so humble opinion.
I think people should try training methods out on themselves before trying them on another living creature. Want to tie a horse up to polls with a harsh bit and smack the shit out of it? Well, knock yourself out trying it first. I think the main problem is that these people lack the ability to empathize.
equestrian054 says: I think people should try training methods out on themselves before trying them on another living creature. Want to tie a horse up to polls with a harsh bit and smack the shit out of it? Well, knock yourself out trying it first. I think the main problem is that these people lack the ability to empathize.
THANK YOU! In the past 4 weeks I added a cardio class to my gym routine. Let me tell you, it kicked my ass especially those first two weeks. As I was dripping with sweat and praying that the clock would move faster, I thought of all the horses I have see being worked to the point that they are foamy with sweat on a daily basis. After the first class I could barely walk the next day.
Ever since I started working out, I’ve become very sensitive to how hard I work my horse. I know there are days and times that she needs to work hard and sweat, just like I do, but I also know how it feels the next day. Speaking of which, I have wrapped my calf muscles in her magnectic standing wraps – those things really do work!
Ha, I hear you on that one.
When I was younger and super fit, I didn’t think too much about giving my horse a good workout each day.
Now that I am older and working out is, um, more difficult, and often produces soreness the next day if I go just a little overboard, I’m now constantly worried about riding “my” horses too hard (I say “my” because i don’t own right now but excercise other people’s horses).
A good workout is good for bodies both human and equine of course, but I also worry about building up to that level, have we been riding consistently enough to do a full 45 minutes today, etc. If the horse is a bit sweaty or breathing a little hard I get worried and “hope I didn’t do too much today.” I’ve gone totally soft on ‘em.
I have a vivid memory of my first ‘dressage lesson’ with a local instructor when I was 13 or so. She had me work my twenty-something year old mare for a full hour on a hot summer day until she was drenched in sweat head to toe. At one point my mare, who was an absolute saint about everything, stopped dead and refused to go forward. (She was just DONE, obviously.) I tried explaining to the trainer “Um, i don’t usually work her this hard” but she paid little attention and made me keep going. Afterwards she told me to just turn her out in a paddock without so much as a hosing (‘she’ll cool herself out’) so that we could go watch a dressage video. I am still embarassed by that day and I felt terrible and wished I could have apologized profusely to the horse. At 13 I didn’t feel comfortable talking back to adults but I still wish I had stopped and told her something like “My horse is OLD and this is TOO MUCH, can’t you see she’s DRENCHED and doesn’t want to MOVE anymore!” She seemed VERY offended when I didn’t want to take more lessons with her. Arrgh I still get mad about that whole thing!
Not quite on topic but in response to your thread – I was TERRIFIED of “talking back”, aka, standing up for myself to adults. I was raised by the generation believing “I’m the adult, I’m right and you’re wrong”. I have two three year old girls right now that are learning it’s okay to express themselves and HOW to do it. If they can’t speak up to someone that has a relationship of mutual trust and respect how can they speak up to someone that they don’t know, or doesn’t respect them?
I think the whole thinking of “I’m an adult so I’m right no matter what” is SO wrong. Respect does not equal kissing ass and if you had said something to you it shouldn’t have been considered “talking back”.
That dancing video was bad enough, but I made the mistake of watching one of the others that was along the bottom once it was over…the “graphic abuse at oklahoma prison rodeo” video is horrendous. I made it as far as the horse hog tying and then the one with two shattered front legs being ran around. I couldn’t watch any more.
I watched it because of your post – I just can NOT see the ‘sport’ in that
Mother of god. What the fuck?
That is THE MOST base, despicable demonstration of soul-less behavior by so-called humans if I’ve ever seen it. Those asshat criminals should get solitary for life. No, no, wait. They should have their legs broken (and an arm for good measure) and (i)then(/i) thrown into solitary for life to deal with it.
You know, I don’t own a horse right now. I’m just not in a situation to be able to do so. And you know what? I would give my left big toe to be able to have and love a horse. And those criminal motherfuckers who don’t give a shit about life treat an animal I would love to love like that? Sonofabitch.
Sorry for the sailor-talk. Feel free to edit as you see fit.
I think I agree with Jennifer R. While the video legitimately exposes cruel practices, I also find their attitude offputting. Why should the only standard for a horse trotting in place be the standard for judging a dressage piaffe? Who says aids must be discrete and cadence is more important than elevation? Why can’t other people do things differently, and both practices be valid?
There are plenty of dressage folks who use a whip to train a piaffe… the comment was made here the other day that “everyone” at higher levels of dressage establishes piaffe and passage by whipping the legs. Although that’s not true, it’s clearly a widespread enough practice that the commenter gained that impression. And folks, let’s not forget… pillars were originally a dressage thing, Westerners and Mexicans did NOT invent them. If dressage can move forward from whips and pillars, there’s no real reason dancing horses can’t do the same. But please, enough with the videos of WASPs in conservative dark colors contrasted with those ebil Cowboys in their tacky outfits riding their horses ALL WRONG. Really, the video was too annoying to be effective in delivering its message. So it’s not an award-winning dressage ride? Really? They’re doing a piaffe wrong? That’s special, since they never claimed to be doing a piaffe.
The REASON that they are comparing it to a dressage piaffe is because the dancing horse trainers are taking dressage principles and bastardizing them in the interest of saving themselves 5-10 years of training AT THE EXPENSE OF THE HORSE.
The reason that the piaffe has to be regular and even is because if it’s not the horse isn’t balanced. This will cause injury. It takes an extraordinary amount of strength for a horse to stay balanced in a piaffe, hence WHY it takes 5-10 years to develop a good one. Everything leading up to it is bodybuilding and mental preparation so that the horse is physically able to perform a piaffe without injury/strain/stress. Very very few dressage horses are ever even taught piaffe because some of them simply aren’t built to do it, or they do not have the brain for it, or their trainers/riders aren’t skilled enough to train it properly and recognize their limitations.
The problem is that the dancing horse trainers want a dancing horse right now, and do not bother to do the pre-work required to have a HAPPY, CALM, and BALANCED horse. Instead, the horses are scared, dangerously unbalanced, at a way high risk for an injury, and their brains are fried. That’s why it’s bad. Not because it’s not a piaffe. Because it’s an ignorant attempt to shortcut to a piaffe-like movement while ruining the horse in the process.
PS- For reference, here is how a dressage whip is used in teaching piaffe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUm_jcuBAag
They do NOT get beat like the “dancing” method. If anyone cannot immediately see the difference between the two training styles, then they need to get a pet fish instead.
YES, there are exceptions to the rule, but there are exceptions to the rule in EVERYTHING. However, I think the issue is that in the case of dancing horses, the kind, thoughtful trainer is more of the “exception” than the “rule” instead of vice versa.
I am a dressage rider who was a working student for many years for a Grand Prix dressage competitor and trainer. I did a lot of slaving in the barn for a few hours in the saddle, but it was soooooo worth it!
When training a horse to do piaffe, we actually did it all from the saddle, no posts or weird sheds with hard surfaces were involved. The horse I rode was already an amazing horse by many people’s standards; born with natural ability and already in training for several years. We actually started with passage, which is a more extended gait for the horse, but still requires collection, rhythm and balance to be achieved. From the passage, my instructions were to “keep a soft rein so as not to interfere with his mouth, but stay supportive so he does not lunge forward.” From there, using my seat, I executed a small, light half halt to slow his steps and kept up the collection by keeping an active, deep seat and support through my legs. I asked him to do one or two small steps, then gave the horse the rein and a bit pat in the neck for being a good boy. I didn’t even carry a whip nor did I have spurs on.
The next day, we repeated the process. A little bit at a time, we asked for more and more steps, all the while working to maintain impulsion, collection, rhythm and relaxation. If the horse made a mistake, I didn’t beat him or yank on the reins; I simply asked again and gave him the rein when he did exactly as I asked with a big “Good boy!” and a pat on the neck. At first, this work only took up about two minutes of a one hour ride, and as his endurance and ability to go longer increased, we spent a little more time on it, but I don’t recall ever spending more than ten minutes working just on piaffe at a time. It can wear down and burn out a horse very quickly, and I can imagine it can be frustrating to a horse to be told to go forward (with its legs) without moving forward.
A relaxed horse cannot show its gaits to the best of its ability, nor can it be truly collected. Contrary to the yank, crank and spank method, true collection comes from proper balance and relaxation on the bit. It takes years to develop, and honestly there are some horses who may never be balanced due to conformational deformities. Although there are a number of great horses out there (mine included!) with some conformational defaults that still do very well in their discipline and even excel in the training levels of dressage, upper level dressage is best carried out by a horse who is already balanced in his body and of a sound mind. Some of the horses I saw in the video were not put together well, while others were obviously being asked to do too much, too soon. Sadly, many of them were afraid, where as the training method I described above made the horse happy. Within a few months, he was executing a decent piaffe with very little encouragement from me because he enjoyed it! He didn’t fear it or hate it, nor did he cower in fear, put his head above the bit to get away, etc. Of course, it took lots of time and plenty of patience to get him to that level of comfort, but I think I’d rather take my time than take short-cuts that will probably break down the horse and make him miserable.
Sorry- meant to say “A FRIGHTENED AND TENSE horse cannot show its gaits to the best of its ability, nor can it be truly collected. Contrary to the yank, crank and spank method, true collection comes from proper balance and relaxation on the bit.” My bad!
A dressage whip is an extension of the aids. It is a training tool. If you’re teaching the horse to move sideways, it’s very helpful to have the whip to be able to TAP the hindquarters to help the horse understand, because obviously your leg is not going to be able to reach his bum. The whip is a tool for communication, NOT punishment or pain. Yes, many dressage trainers use a whip to help the horse learn piaffe. Some trainers touch the horse’s legs with it. Others like to tap in rhythm on the horse’s croup.
There is a NIGHT and DAY difference between a touch or tap and WHIPPING.
Piaffe is physically difficult to do. There is a reason why piaffe is not called for until Intermediare II and Grand Prix. The horse is exceptionally well developed as an athlete capable of carrying a rider in balance at that point. Asking a horse to ‘dance’ at a young age, even if it was done ‘humanely’, is NOT good for the horse physically and could very well lame him up at a very premature age..
WOW…wish those horses would just buck like SOBs to get those jerks off their backs, but then they’d probably endure worse treatment. The buckskin with the braided mane looked like a really neat animal, but his treatment was so sad. The true dressage-trained horses looked SO comfortable in their skins. Sad, sad, sad horses and horsemanship, and not nearly as pretty as the dressage horses’ movements!
As for your blog on political ads…we just returned from a trip out east, and the annoying, or rather despicable politcal are everywhere! I look forward to your comments.
Why oh WHY did that video have to associate the beauty of the Wolf’s Rain soundtrack with this awfulness?
I wondered the same thing…heard the first few plinks to “Pilgrim Snow” and instantly muted it. There’s no other sound anyway other than the music, so no loss there.
As one of my friends so shouted when he heard “Sunday Bloody Sunday” being used as a sports’ theme during an NFL game: “Stop raping good music!”
Video Video Do not think my post went as I am clueless, but this is an OTTB being reeducated….
Whip should never touch a horses legs .
This video is a retired jumper doing Piaffe it is about education. Video
Let me try links again… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFtfuARd0t8
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQsRqLv4RzY
I touch my horse on the legs with a whip. I started tickling her until she would lift the leg I was touching.
Then I repeated that on the other legs until she could left the leg I was touching. Then I stopped actually touching, just pointing, so she would lift the leg the whip was pointing at.
She can do this with all for legs now. I am now in the process of teaching her the Spanish Walk by pointing at the front leg whilst encouraging her forwards, because she knows me pointing means “lift high” (I taught her this by tickling her even though she was already lifting, which annoyed her so she would lift higher, then praising like crazy) and “forwards”/tongue clucking means forwards lol. Once they get that, you start alternating legs until they “Walk”.
Getting her to pick up her back legs and being able to make her lengthen her stride with them whilst “stepping over” allows me to bring her leg further under her center of gravity while she is on a circle, thus engaging her hindend more than she would normally do.
Anyways, I am just trying to show how “touching your horse’s legs with a whip can be a useful tool in training them without hitting them. If you never hit them with it, they have no reason to be scared of it any more than a rope or a saddle etc, so I find the “Stress” argument faulty, too.
Well, I’m going to modify that never with almost never. I have, once in my life, hit a horse on the leg…fairly hard, too.
It was when I was riding under the…trainer…my parents insisted I ride under when I was a kid. She had a pony who was a great ride, perfectly nice tempered…until you went in his stall.
And there was a rule that we were not allowed to bring a horse out of its stall to groom it for ‘safety’ reasons. Apparently it was safer to try and work with an animal who hated having you in there. Right. Every time I handled that horse, he spun and tried to kick me.
I tried EVERYTHING with that dang horse. I tried taking a treat to give him if he didn’t try to attack me…didn’t work, he never didn’t try to attack me. I’d smack him on the body, and he’d still try to kick me…and he was fairly serious about it, too. I KNEW that horse was going to hurt me sooner or later.
So one day I grabbed a crop and went in there, waited for him to try and kick me and then whacked him one on the back of the offending leg.
Not something I would EVER do under any normal circumstances, but…guess what?
Little brat never so much as cocked a leg at me again.
But then, there’s a big difference between one sharp smack and whipping.
Hitting a leg they’re threatening you with is FINE. It’s like whacking them in the nose with your elbow when they snake out to bite you.
this little 14 hand (about 7 yrs) Chocolate Palomino was caught by AC in south Phoenix running down a street with 3 lassos around his legs…presumed to be an escapee from a horse tripping contest. I’m fostering him for a local Rescue & you can see him on pet finder if anybody is interested. He has been with me for a couple of months & has turned into a pocket pony.
Hmmm picture didn’t turn out need help!! He is on petfinder in Phoenix, his name is Hawkeye
You are an ANGEL! I wish I could help, but all I can say is Thank You for fostering such a cute lil’ guy. I really hope he gets a great forever home.
What a cute little guy. And he looks as if he knows exactly how the world should work for him from now on. Wish I needed another pony!
I believe he’s actually a silver dapple, what a cutie!
The horse might be trotting in place, but he ain’t dancing. Dancing is an art form that is developed thru practice and the development of the muscles to do so willingly and easily with grace and beauty. That is no more dancing than tying a person’s hair to a rope, suspending it over a rafter in the barn and pulling it up until she’s standing on her toes and calling it ballet! Poor poor horses. It’s not beautiful and the horses aren’t doing so willingly ( or they’d be doing it in the pasture ), it’s torture and very sad. I am not impressed by any training that might be good for the owner, but not the horse.
Good analogy!
WTF!!! Friesians already have a lofty trot and high headset.This breed can give you a false sense of collection because of their natural gaits. Their over exaggeration “dancing” of what friesians, andalusians, and aztecas can do naturally is horrible. They ruin what was bred into the horse natually by their want of “flash” just like the “big lick” ruins the beautiful natural movement of the walkers.
I have seen good charros and bad ones, just like with all things equesterian. It has nothing to do with the orgin of the horseperson or the value of the horse.
One “training” question I have is why do they tie their horses with their head held high for hours at a time? Usually tied to a upper branch on a tree or to an O ring high on a post. I see a lot of charros do this and a few “cowboys” and I am not sure what this is supposed to teach the horse.
“One “training†question I have is why do they tie their horses with their head held high for hours at a time? Usually tied to a upper branch on a tree or to an O ring high on a post. I see a lot of charros do this and a few “cowboys†and I am not sure what this is supposed to teach the horse.”
Tying a horse’s head to a rafter is used in a really big QH show barn here in WA and I’m sure in many others as well. I have heard from a good source that worked at that barn it was used when a horse went up on the front end…it would teach them not to want to rear up again.
I heard it was used as a punishment just to teach the horse a lesson, also when a certain person was just that pissed at a horse, would you want to act like a young horse again soon after a night of that…..this is not an uncommon thing to do……..although it is pure torture, but if you’re in the blues who cares right.
Oh and the person that worked at that barn did quit after seeing all the abuse……the things she told me about the ponies was sickening and heart wrenching as well.
““One “training†question I have is why do they tie their horses with their head held high for hours at a time? Usually tied to a upper branch on a tree or to an O ring high on a post. I see a lot of charros do this and a few “cowboys†and I am not sure what this is supposed to teach the horse.â€
Actually, the only purpose of that which I know of is for western pleasure…to make the neck muscles so sore that the horse can’t raise his neck above level in the show ring. This is an abuse practiced mostly by Caucasian asshats, for those of you who want to make sure my snarking is fair and balanced!
Hanging is used as FHOTD said, but also it originates because of its value as a way to exhaust and wear down a horse.
Thanks for the response. As an ACO when I do inspections of stables I see alot of these tied horses. They were not being groomed or washed or tied for any other reason other than to be tied. The rope does not allow for the horses head to drop down past it’s chest ( although often times its set higher than this) I see it in the 12 X 12 stalls and a rope is hung from the top rafter in the center and the horse is tied to it. When I ask why I can get several responses, ” we are cleaning and it is only temporary”, “we are training them how to stay tied and not pull back”, ” he just had a bath and I don’t want him to roll”. I know most of these are bullshit excuses, so I had to as what the real reason is. I always demand that they be untied, but I’m sure as soon as I leave they get hooked up again. It’s small potatoes compared to the other crap I deal with but it still bugs me.
A fair number of horses die from this practice. I have a couple of friends (former) who got into WP big time, and went to big name training barns, they both had one or more horses die as a result of this abuse, at more than one barn, and there were others that they knew of. If a horse fights it too hard, or is left for too long and gets too fatigued to keep standing, they can injure vertebrae in their necks and die or have to be put down. But at least, I think, they stopped bleeding them.
Maybe. I remember reading one report about pools of blood in the drains at Congress, but that was probably a few years back. After all, bleeding is hard to detect!
And when I was at ABRA World this year, at the fairgrounds where so many big shows take place, they actually have RECEPTACLES FOR SYRINGES in the wash areas to keep people from throwing them on the floor.
WTF. Seriously.
Yeah, I would say most of the bigger show venues I’ve been to have sharps containers. People are going to give their horses stuff, whether it’s legal stuff like Adequan (we had a couple of horses that used to get a dose at shows) or some ace before they hop on the trailer to go home – or illegal stuff (uppers or downers, painkillers, etc).
At least with the containers nobody is going to throw dirty needles where they shouldn’t go… I guess it’s like the free needle programs some places have for IV drug users. They figure, well, it’s going to happen, so at least we can make it as safe as possible.
That PROBABLY doesn’t have anything to do with horses. The bathrooms at my Public Library have sharps containers. It’s more and more common in public restrooms. I think the intent is for the insulin needles of human diabetics….
I would imagine you’re generally seeing something a bit different – so I’m not arguing with hanging the head from the highest rafter as being abusive (bleh.)
But in general, I tie my horses high, pretty short, and to something stable if they’re tied in their stall – always. I don’t want them to be able to get their head down and get the tie tangled in anything. I hate seeing horses tied low with super long leads and/or to easily breakable/moveable objects (like stall bars or wire)…
So, on occasion, a horse tied high may in fact just be drying out, or they may be a pain to clean around in the stall – those are good reasons for having one tied. If you have cross ties set up in the stall, they don’t need to be quite as high as a single tie. I’d imagine you’d be able to tell from the barn’s general feel which is which, haha = )
Anyway, tying one up super high to tire them out or whatever is a very nasty tactic that I’d never heard of until WP people mentioned it (I grew up riding saddle seat, so you’d never want one’s neck too tired to hold it up high, haha). But beyond that, tying a horse relatively high in his stall is a safe way to tie (obviously this is within reason for each horse and their natural head and neck carriage – a saddle seat ASB is going to need a higher tie than a WP QH).
Just to quickly clarify– it IS common to tie up a horse after working, or when cleaning stalls. It’s safer for the horse in certain situations, and often in a training stables it is just impossible to get all the horses ridden if you take a full hour to completely cool a horse out. I also personally have found that some horses benefit from a session of being tied up after being worked– it’s almost as if they spend the time reflecting. Crazy, I know, but for some horses it’s a good thing.
Actual ‘hanging’ is easy to identify– see if the horse’s neck muscles are tensed in an effort to keep its head high enough to prevent pressure on the halter. A horse tied that high is becoming cramped and exhausted. A horse tied normally actually shouldn’t be able to get its head much lower than its chest– otherwise if it paws, it can get caught in the rope or chain. That’s just standard safety procedure, especially if the horse is left alone.
Sure. Tying them up so they don’t roll is totally normal, but you tie them with their head at a normal level, like if they were tied to the horse trailer. You want them to be able to move normally. When their head is tied pointing up, THAT’s being done for some nefarious purpose.
I read an interesting article a while ago about tying horses up high. Apparently it adversely affects their respiratory and digestive tracts, as they were designed to function with the horses’ head held at a lower level. The study was mostly focused on show horses who get trailered a lot over long distances with their heads tied up in the trailer instead of being loose in box stalls. (I think it was in PH?) Also, if you look at the design of the horse trachea and esophagus, they really get crunched when the horse is tied up high above chest level. Their vertebrae and neck muscles were also not designed to support this position. The vertebrae would start to impinge on each other- ouch
There is, actually, a training method hidden in this practice. Snubbing a horse so it can only lower it’s head limits how hard it can jerk back, stops it from rolling and limits climbing tendencies. When used properly it safely teaches a hard tie. But the horse must be watched the entire time (like if you are on a lunch hour) and should be done with either a solid sunk post or a dead tree. The plan is that after you introduce the horse to the idea of tying (loop rope around hitching rail without tying it) they get snubbed up. The horse gets to dance around but can’t get a lot of room. Set backs, rearing, throwing itself on the ground and head under lead syndrome should all be stopped by the halter before major injury. The only time I have heard of a major injury is when the lead was too long.
However, someone at some point discovered that this can be used to fake good training. And I think the dumbest idea is snubbing to rafters ‘to clean the stall.’ WTF was the plan there? To be at the right distance for really bad injury? (I’ve never had to tie or remove a horse to clean a stall but this sounds like a really bad idea.)
Aside from being disgusted, I realize how naive I really am. What always came to mind when I thought of “dancing” horses, was sort of a freestyle showmanship kind of thing. My first horse had feet problems, so we spent TONS of time together on the ground. When I saw the general idea of “join-up”, or “hook-up”, or whatever you call it when the horse follows your movements, I thought it would be fun to teach my boy to do that. So I did. We had lots of fun “dancing” in the arena: forward, back, turn, trot, walk – I did it to music, and he followed my feet. It was a great partnering game we could do without riding. The whip? Only the longe whip when we were longeing & not making contact. I swear, he liked the game too.
Now I want to know WHY you’d want your horse to do that. Most of it didn’t look like in-place trotting anyway as much as mini-bucking, crow-hopping, and other non-controlled movements you wouldn’t want your horse to do, whether you can stay on or not. My mare, who believe or not is named Dancer, does all that crap when she doesn’t want to be ridden. I’m working with her to get her NOT to do that. (No whips were used at all in her learning process of how to misbehave – she’s just figured out in the past that crap gets her out of work.) I thought I had a grumpy, PIA mare that’s smarter than most people. Now I see that I have a talented “dancing” horse. I guess I need to start selling tickets to her “performances”, instead of paying a trainer to help me get her to stop. LOL
That first part of the clip looked like my old OTTB gelding having a bucking tantrum!
That made me so sick to my stomach, but it was educational. Those horses don’t look like anything I’d like to ride. They look ready to explode! I feel so sorry for all those backyard horses having to endure that kind of torture.
http://www.westgaitstable.com starvation is abuse.
My word, almost all these horses have hip and spine bones that you could cut things on. Why would you put these images on the internet? Surely they can’t think that is what a healthy horse looks like. At least one of the animals looks lame, possibly laminitic (which can sometimes be a feat on a starving horse) given her stance.
Ugh. Somebody send those people a book on basic horse care (with easy-to-understand “Good” and “Bad” pictures.) Amazing that they would proudly post those pictures of their horses. And they live in horse country! Don’t you think that at some point, they would see what well fed horses are supposed to look like?
http://www.westgaitstable.com/Key-to-the-Ritz.php
WTF is wrong with his back legs???
http://www.westgaitstable.com/Mares.php
Not one of these mares has enough meat on them for themselves let alone be carrying a foal!!
These people seriously need to be reported…Is there anyone in KY who want to make a few calls and have the nice friendly ACO make a ride out there??
Wow. Those mares are royalty, genetically. The stallion you linked to is probably fine (in build). They appear to have resized the pictures by dragging one side, then the other– Combine that with poor pictures to begin with, and you end up with that rather hideous photo op they posted.
Such a shame– those really are very nice horses, well bred and supposedly broke to ride. Wonder if anyone will be willing to step in and fix the situation.
The first picture looks like he is a two year old. He does not look old enough to be ridden, that is for sure. I could be wrong with that statement, and for the horse’s sake I hope I am, but people are known for breaking in Walkers at insanely young ages. His legs look funny because he is a Tennessee Walker. Walkers have long, differently shaped legs in order to get their trademark running walk. They caught a really bad angle of him resting, and his leg looks horrible. I certainly wouldn’t have ever posted that picture online! He looks like he would make a nice gelding, he obviously has a great running walk from the pictures. Those pictures are SO effed up. I saved them to my computer and looked at them…all I can say is that they were very distorted on the website.
It certainly is sad to look at the state of those horses. I currently own a Walker, who my farrier believes was malnourished at a young age. My farrier said that his overall bone structure is quite messed up, which is most likely due to starvation during the young growing years. Even though he is happy and healthy now, he has arthritis and other assorted problems at age fifteen due to his younger years.
Ok…this is off topic…but I just went to West Gate Stables website like akblackhorse suggested. This is truly sickening. These people have made a prosecuting attorneys case for them. They have starved their horses, and then taken pictures and posted them for sale. Beyond ridiculous. I am sending them an email now “nicely” telling them my opinion.
Ummmmm also, did you see the size of the shank on that bit they are using on several of those poor creatures?
OMG and they reckon they have few, but very special horses. WTF why do you need FOUR stallions (who are underfed) on top of eleven mares who are ALSO underfed….. O.O
how is it those mares can carry their foals to term? How skinny do they have to be to self-abort?
I wondered about that too…wondered if that could be the reason why they have only ONE foal for sale!
I thought the same thing, and wondered just how high and horrific the ports had to be … can you say “spade bit in the wrong hands?”
I see nothing pretty in it and I’ve told a few “Mexican cowboys” that they should be ashamed, that what they are doing is nothing like the good old reined cowhorse tradition of snaffle, hackamore, double reins and finally bitted. There were some on one of the college campuses where I did some work a few years ago and I told people that the “horsemanship” they were witnessing was actually cruelty. And yes, all four horses were stallions, none of whom should have had those parts still, let alone “ride” them out in public half-crazed out of their minds with “dancing.”
WOW! this just PISSES me off…
FUGS … WHY NOT investigate this before it turns into a situation where we’re getting a post on them being pulled out with x amount dead?
I know you’re busy and I am not giving you a hard time. But I think this needs your free time!
I haven’t watched the video because I already know what it contains and, yes, it is truly disgusting.
That said, I have ridden a rescue horse who is said to have been trained as a Mexican dancing horse. The horse was taken to auction by an owner who was bawling when he handed over the horse because he could no longer afford to feed him (a fact which was plainly obvious by the horses condition). I have no idea how this horse was trained. The training methods might have been cruel, and they may have been more considerate. I will only point out that when I ride this horse he is absolutely wonderful. He is incredibly light and responsive and I have ridden a top Medal Equitation Hanoverian as well to give you an idea of what type of horses I am comparing him to. When you ask this horse to collect (bareback and with only a rope halter) he will often “dance” with his neck arched and his tail in the air as if to show off his skills. None of us know how to train or ride a dancing horse, yet he still does it from time to time. Based upon this experience I will say at least one retired/rescued horse out there seems to remember “dancing” and apparently enjoys doing it because we certainly aren’t cruelly asking him to do anything at this stage in his spoiled life.
I just wanted to offer this perspective because I imagine it isn’t every day one of us rides a horse trained to perform (cruelly or not) in this fashion.
I had a former Mexican rodeo horse that I rehabbed. I absolutely adored him but he was tiny and I eventually sold him as a pony hunter. He made two little girls very happy.
I’ve known good charros. They do exist and they do study and learn and take their time and love their horses.
But there’s bad everywhere. I remember hearing about an Arabian halter trainer that would stand his horses on a platform that would electrically shock the horse when it didn’t respond correctly. I’ve also owned not one but two fried ex-halter Arabians. Talk about a project. Believe me, those fried Arabs were so much tougher to deal with than the Mexican rodeo horse I had.
I also think seeing a dressage rider in piaffe who is jab jab jabbing their horse’s every move with the spurs is just as disgusting as what is portrayed in that video. Bleh.
There are many ways to train piaffe. I was shown how to develop it out of an extremely collected walk. Whatever works and gets you a desirable result, I really don’t care … just don’t abuse the poor animal.
Ok, I really can’t watch this video, my head will explode. But haven’t they heard about the Spanish Riding School? You can teach a horse to “dance” without abuse. Oh, wait, that takes too much time, and maybe more than double digit IQ.
It’s not easy, but think about it – the law has, for the most part (yes, I KNOW there are exceptions!), been able to see the difference between a well-deserved spanking and child abuse. This is the same thing. Don’t be so afraid of getting bombed by PETA for carrying a dressage whip that you fear ANY legislation that limits physical punishment of an animal.
Don’t mean to get off-topic (more hands-on experience with dogs than horses), but seriously…I do fear people who want to ban training tools that appear cruel and are actually more than humane AND effective training devices in the right hands.
Between bans on e-collars (Wales) and pinch collars (Australia), dog owners are having some very useful training tools forcibly removed by those who, quite franky, know nothing about them but the propaganda that they’ve been fed because they’ve never taken the time to learn the RIGHT WAY to use them.
While my knowledge of the ins and outs of the horse industry is rather limited compared to that of dogs, I can only imagine that there has to be a parallel somewhere, somehow in equine behavior and training.
Unfortunately if you look at what this video describes as a true dressage piaffe, Anky and quite a few of the top level riders fall very short of it, yet still win win win. I find this type of dancing training appalling but find the rollkur style of training just as bad. The difference is rollkur is constant spurring rather than whipping, but there isn’t an ounce of relaxation in those dressage horses when being shown. They may have the big flashy movement up front but rarely have anything behind. I am sure that there are lovely dancing horses out there that have been trained using non abusive ways and I certainly would love to see some of them!
That’s a good point. What Anky and the rollkurites are doing is not all that different from what the dancing horse guys are doing. The charros are tying the horse and then whipping. The bad dressage rider is cranking the mouth and spurring. In both cases, the horse’s forward movement is forcibly restricted and then he’s stimulated by harsh aids. In both scenarios the horse gets agitated and has nowhere to go but up so he ‘dances’ in tension.
Parts of this video look eerily similar to the mexican horses; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz9r9zqGKhE
The poor horses heads are cranked upward not on the bit, they are tense from the feet upwards, fear and pain written all over thier faces, no flexability in the joints and the the real Piaffe horses can keep the gait going but the “Dancing” horses cannot. They break any cadence they might even have after a few paces. The grey shown at the first of the video looks like he is doing a hyper version of “krumping” which I thought was the most retarded yet, thank God, short lived dance fad. Ai find most Mexican men have an ego problem.
Thank you for grabbing that ad for the filly! I was going to send it to you but my phone cant do screen shots and the description doesnt do justice to how unfortunately cute she is
i am going to puyallup next week and was thinking of making a field trip to rip this lady a new one.
i’m going to puyallup to a feed store that sells teff pellets to try on my epsm mare, and if its good i’ll probably want to pick up some bales too
And did you catch this gem? http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/grd/2017077850.html
Imagine that, he has “high withers”… ya think??
On the woman with the broken to saddle yearling – WTF?
I thought breaking two year old’s was bad enough, that someone advertises the fact that they are breaking babies! The sheer stupidity of it, the broadcasting of it like it’s normal. Jesus. Ridden at one and a half years old, dead by four? is that the new idea of speed breaking?
I’m no professional horse trainer, but I’ve broken my own horses, and to date – no problems, sure early mistakes that had to be straightened out, I started young with a wild shetland gelding. But now I start at 3, if they don’t seem ready at 3 – I wait till they are 4. Because I want to be riding them when they are 24, so I lose a year now – it pays off in the future to having a happy, sane and trained horse. Surely that’s what every training program wants to produce?
Currently I have a 3 year old, who is 4 next spring. He came to us as a dangerous, bundle of nerves yearling colt, gelding him helped, but it’s still taken him 2 years to be less idiotic. He’s a drama queen, he freaks out about everything, when he freaks, he rears, he bolts – but underneath the ”episodes”, he’s a super sweet horse, who trusts me. I was so proud the last time he freaked out – he just danced about at the end of his lead rope, then came back to me. A year ago – he’d have been gone, hiding behind a bush. He’s a quick learner, he lunges well, takes a bridle and bit like he was born with a bit in his mouth, will saddle up, wear a surcingle, really tries hard. And despite how far he’s came, I made the decision to delay backing him till he was 4. My last horse I done the same with, for different reasons, he matured very slowly, and was dopey as hell at 3. Come 4, he was ready to listen.
So yeah, I don’t get why waste horses for quick turn around training, I can understand it (and still dislike it) from a business point of view, but if you have one horse or own them for pleasure, then don’t fuck them over.
**note when I say I started young with a wild shetland, I meant I was young. I re-read and realised it made me sound like I was doing what I was ranting about. He was a good 3 before anyone sat on him
This is a great article.
When I lived in Southern California and was getting into horses, my friends advised me to NOT buy horses from “caballeros” because no matter how GREAT the horse appears to be, it’s probably berzerk, lame or both.
Like Fugly said, nothing against the ENTIRE people or their culture. (It’s a shame I even have to put that on my post.) The thinking is to people like me who aren’t trainers, or even the best riders from getting hurt.
That film really broke my heart. Such really, really nice horses that are so out of my reach being abused just as much as if they were abused by neglect.
This video made me cry! I hate to see a horse in pain or scared, they should be treated with the dignity and respect that these wondrous beautiful creatures deserve!! I wish I could take a bat to the ones that were mistreating those horses! I don’t know what they think it looks like, but to me their version of “dancing” horses is as ugly as as can be and it’s not right at all!! Most of those horses looked like they had the natural ability to “dance” beautifully if taught the correct way. I really loved the big buckskin in the arena with the braided mane, that one was absolutely gorgeous (I’m partial to buckskins), but I would have really loved to take that whip from the man that was on him and show him how it feels!!! This goes on way too often because people turns their heads and think, “at least they’re fed well”. That is still abuse!! Ugh I just can’t rant enough about it! Makes me so mad, grrrrrr! You are definitely right, “if the horse is scared shitless, it’s not art!”
Well Fugly, I’m glad you can be so politically correct about Mexico and Mexicans. I for one would like to see the entire country of Mexico separate from the North American continent and float on out to sea. I am sick of Mexican drug cartels, Mexican murderers, Mexican horse trippers,Mexican illegals, etc., etc. I know that there are plenty of idiots to dislike and be disgusted by in the good old United States, but it seems that the Mexicans are way up there in animal and people abuse and neglect. Many of them have little regard for human or animal life. I also realize that some of the pos neanderthals on your video were not Mexicans.
As far as our own home grown repulsive, pond scum is concerned, I think the man that I read about recently who bought a foundered mare for slaughter, but no, in order to squeeze a little more money out of her and add to her misery, he rented her to a Mexican rodeo for horse tripping when she could hardly walk. He said when she was returned in 2 weeks he would ship her to slaughter. I would personally like to apply a tight rubber band to his balls and tie his hands behind his back for two weeks.
Now I am usually a pleasant and easy going person, but I hate abuse, especially abuse done to anything that cannot fight back, children, the elderly, animals. There are so many so called horsemen out there that are like the old saying “the razor in the monkey’s hand”. They see something, don’t know how it is accomplished correctly, and go about trying to artificially create something that should be a pleasure to do and to watch. That’s all folks.
At the risk of political incorrectness, I agree with every word.
Wow . . . you are a seriously racist jerk. You probably don’t get out much.
I wonder what you’d say if you saw the two Mexicans who helped me save a trapped skunk last night. They risked getting sprayed and bitten to save an animal that’s considered a pest.
Those comments were actually pretty mild compared to the things that a lot of people seem to think it’s perfectly ok to say these days. Look at the comments section of any local paper in California, Arizona or Nevada. Hispanic babies referred to as “mud puppies”. Women giving birth in this country “coming here to “drop” their babies” as if they were horses or cows. That being said, I despise the animal creulty and cruel training methods. In the English culture bear-baitning used to beconsidered, good family fun. Your in America now, don’t give me the bs arguement that cruelty is part of your culture. I was once accused of violating the treathy of Guadaulupe-Hildago for writing an ordinance that banned raising roosters for cockfighting….
Sorry, late night, insomnia, lots of spelling mistakes…
Yikes… Might want to adjust your views a little bit, or I’d imagine you might be overcome with bitterness. I think I understand the root of your feelings, but to dismiss an entire country and culture like that is harsh and excessive.
I think the problem is with people in general (the human race can be haaard to like) – maybe Mexico is just the closest different culture you deal with frequently, so you’ve singled them out?
Anyway, some of the best horse employees I’ve met and worked with have been Mexican. I’ve also worked with Mexicans in the restaurant world – generally quite friendly and helpful and hardworking. Yes, there were some scummy grooms at shows (white and black too though) who would give obnoxious cat calls in spanish (english too, haha), but for the most part, the Mexicans and other Latin Americans I’ve worked with have been extremely caring of their equine charges if given a proper education (since some do not have a horsey background when they start).
I was also in New Orleans post-Katrina, and the city had a huge influx of Mexican and hispanic workers that came in for the rebuilding process. Most were polite and hard working and exactly what the city needed since many of our blue collar workers were still stuck far from home. I had a flat tire one day and figured out at that point that my jack was busted – awesome. Within seconds of seeing my plight, 3 workers nearby came over with an industrial strength jack and changed my flat. Their english wasn’t great, but they were very helpful and polite and we could communicate just fine.
I think it’s way too easy to make sweeping generalizations and find excuses for them to be “okay.” If you allow yourself to keep thinking in that way, the snobby racist thoughts can start to take over, even if to begin with you’d never consider yourself racist or a hateful person. It’s the same reason I always find racial slurs or racial jokes inappropriate even if made totally in jest – it’s just too easy for people to develop racism as a habit and state of mind if you let it sneak in through jokes and generalizations that seem harmless at first.
Oh, Greyfel- I totally get you. I lived near Bakersfield for awhile and I saw a lot of people abuse their dogs there. It was the worst in this one section of trashy Oildale— all the white trash that lived there would kick them silly at the slightest infraction and leave them tied up on chains in the front yard in the direct sunlight, no access to shade, regardless of how blindingly hot it was.
That’s why I think the entire western half of the United States should have a nuclear bomb dropped on it. What a bunch of disgusting, ignorant animal haters— all of them. That section of the country should just cease to exist.
*facepalm*
Have you even *been* to Mexico? It really seems like you’ve based your entire views on a nation and people based upon what you’ve read in newspapers or seen on tv. And no, visiting a border town for the weekend doesn’t count as “going to Mexico” anymore than driving through the nasty sections of east Los Angeles counts as a “Trip through California”. And for the record, yes, the death count from the six-year drug war in Mexico is horrifying. On the other hand… The government is FINALLY doing something about it! After hundreds of years of just lying down for the program, the people in charge are following through on their campaign promises! Personally, I think that deserves a round of applause.
Don’t get me wrong – the training in the video is terrible. It’s horrible to watch the horses’ frantic attempts at figuring out just what the he** they need to do in order to escape from the situation. Comment on the idiots in the video all you want, and I’ll be behind you silently cheering.
This is a little off-topic, but is it just me, or does it seem spectacularly unfair that a**holes like the guys in the video look like their butt is glued to the saddle? It doesn’t seem like it should be fair that they look like they are “one with the horse” when they’re the complete opposite. Why can’t I sit a horse like that?
My little rescued dog is from Bakersfield, and I will agree – Bakersfield (particularly the animal shelter) is enough to make you lose faith in the entire human species. Caucasian, Latino, I don’t care. I think they have like an 80% kill rate. The day I got my dog, there were probably SIXTY small dogs there, on top of another 100 or so large ones.
They were going to kill this. WTF.
Oh, and when I took her in to be spayed, they told me she’d already had puppies. OF COURSE SHE HAD. Because some Kern County asshat BYB had to make their thousand bucks off of her.
What a face! I’m glad she has a great home.
I’ve gone to the Bakersfield animal shelter two or three times – you’re right. It rips your heart out just to walk through the doors. My “friend” (a passing college acquaintance) had found a puppy wandering the streets and had brought it home. Naturally, hedidn’t keep it inside or even behind a fence. So the dog wandered off. When I went to go pick up a homework assignment at his house, I asked about the dog (sweet little Catahoula/Labrador mix about 3 months old.) When I found out he hadn’t seen the dog in almost two weeks, I immediately drove over to the shelter. It was an hour before closing and it was her LAST day. She was in a pen with about six other puppies of the same age – it was all their last day, too. I ended up bailing her out at five minutes to closing time when it became obvious no one was going to adopt her, and sneaking her over to my tack shed. I found a home for her about two weeks later. It killed me to walk away from that pen of chubby puppies, knowing they’d all be dead within another hour or so.
My sister just got involved with a small-dog rescue. She just agreed to foster two dogs that were rescued on their kill day – chihuhua and a purebred, what appears to be very high quality rat terrier. Within 24 hours of bringing the fox terrier home she gave birth to three puppies.
Who does that? Who abandons their pregnant, almost birthing dog to a high-kill shelter? Why not just have the balls to take it in to the vet and put it down yourself?
Oh well, I’m preaching to the choir. At least that’s five lives saved from that place.
So long as they are correctly, humanely, put down, with love and respect, I do not have a problem with it.
I would rather see the arseholes that bred them in the kill pen, but, as things stand, being put to sleep gently is a better end than wandering the streets waiting to be hit by a car, get pregnant or be used as target practise!
I had never heard of “dancing” hroses. But it was interesting to learn that idiot TWH big lick trainers are not the only trainers who use chains as a short cut and method to affect a horse’s gait. These dancing horse tainers are every bit as cruel and disgusting as the Big Lick trainers.
A friend of mine had a Paso Fino that had never had any formal Paso training, but he was one of the most intelligent horses I have ever known. He could to his little paso gait in place like that. He taught himself to do it when I was trying to teach him to slow down for my friend who owned him. He liked to really move out, and she wanted me to teach him that he could gait more slowly.
I was riding him, and trying to show him that he didn’t need to take off in his fastest paso gait the minute someone’s rear hit the saddle. Within a week he was standing quietly and moving out slowly instead of launching himself forward at a break-neck rate.
Then one night in the arena, he just started to “step in place” it was just the darnedest thing. With just a little more work, he learned to side pass all the while doing his little paca paca step. After I had been riding him for a couple of months, I swear he could read my mind, and would do almost anything I could imagine for him to do. He even learned to do that little stiff extended front leg step. I don’t know anything about dressage except I’ve heard a few of their terms at a Lippinzaner performance- that’s all. I would say he was doing a piaffe all on his own because he could, and he enjoyed doing it.
The QH people at the boarding stable got a charge out of watching all the intricate patterns and steps he was willing to do. He also learned to bow at the end of his routine. And he learned a sliding stop- which really pleased the QH people. : )
His owner never could get him to do near as much for her as he was willing to do for me. This little Paso Fino was the most wonderful horse I ever rode. I tried to get her to sell him to me, but she wouldn’t. He ended up becoming a pasture ornament because she just didn’t have the confidence to ride him. To me, he will always be that “perfect” horse that got away.
Experiencing how much that boy learned to do has always left me wondering why so many professional trainers resort to cruel methods. If someone like me, who is not a professional trainer, can get a horse to do most of what I want without whipping, spur gouging, etc.– why can’t the so-called professionals do that and more without cruelty?
These dancing horse people in the video were just too rough for no real reason. I bet most of thise horses could have learned that “dance” without all the whipping– but it might have taken longer and have taken more work on their part.
BTW- What is horse tipping or tripping? Is it something like calf roping?
They aim for the legs in horse tripping, and generally the goal is to get the horse to fall. Kinda sick, since a full grown horse is a lot heavier than a calf, and since the tripping usually isn’t done to control or subdue the horse– it’s literally done to make the horse fall. (at least that’s my take on it).
The reason trainers don’t take that kind of time with all horses is because all horses can’t perform the same. Your little Paso was an amazing boy, but for every bright, eager, talented horse, there are ten who really need to do something else. Let’s face it, we can’t all be the LSU starting quarterback. Someone has to fill the Gatorade containers. Or sit in the stands and cheer.
You got to pick out and ride a quarterback. Many trainers are trying to get the waterboys to throw 60 yard bombs. If you get my meaning. Owners often aren’t smart enough to believe it when told that their horse just doesn’t have it. I’ve watched it happen– trainers who are trying to gently explain that, yes, your quarter horse western pleasure prospect really WOULD make a better saddleseat horse for a county fair. While the owners glare, haul the horse to the next trainer, and insist that somewhere out there is a magician who can ‘fix’ their broken horse.
I understand that one. I was working with an Arabian whoes owner wanted to make him a Western Pleasure horse. I worked with him for about and hour and knew right then he was not WP material. I tried giving the benefit of the doubt but after 3 days I finally told her he was not WP material. I found out that a previous trainer had stated the same thing and sent him home back to the owner. This horse was not going for the “low and slow” deal and wanted to move. If he got bored (which was quickly) he made things intresting if you will. I told the owner he would like Reining better or Cutting, heck even Saddle seat if you could redirect that energy upward. The more times I changed direction, turned him, leg yeilded him, roll backed him and moved him about the more complacent he was and not looking for trouble (ie bucking, pulling and chomping on the bit, wringing his neck and head and etc.) She ended up selling him to a guy from the middle east. The horse and the guy actuallly got along pretty good.
Good horse just wrong dicipline for him.
Horse tripping is usually a Mexican rodeo practice where men (usually on horseback) get a horse galloping around an arena as fast as it can (sometimes by electric prod) before someone on the ground ropes one of its legs and sends the horse crashing face first into the ground. And they do it repeatedly. Its terrible.
And what the fuck is that supposed to prove. “Me big man, cause I can trip up a horse and cause it pain and suffering. make big laugh. Me big man ooooga ooogg.” I would love it if a horse could do that tripping thing on a human.
I know, lets take one of those “big men”, whip him to run and then rope a leg and trip up that man and laugh untill we bust a gut then drag his ass out back and let him stand with an untreated leg if broken and send him off to slaughter. Sounds good to me. Big Laugh. Ah Better yet lets chase him down with a 1200 lb horse and rope him around his neck and jerk the fuck out of him off his feet, slam him to the ground………..then hog tie his ass. I HATE calf roping and team penning also.
I think it proves you must have a REALLY tiny penis to be so angry at life that cruelty is fun.
BINGO! Like “turtle in a shell” small. Where’d it gooooo? Maybe their whips are the only extensions they have that stick out.
The scared ones ain’t got no rhythm. It’s painful to watch.
I equate this with FGM and Burquas. Yeah, yeah, culture…whatever. Ours used to subjugate women and minorities, but we don’t anymore….sometimes, change is good.
Thank you for mentioning that not all Mexicans are bad horsemen who practice abuse horse keeping techniques.
Last year I went to a Back Country Horseman prize ride in Maple Valley where the “special guest” was a dancing horse. The horse seemed well cared for, but it was almost 100 degrees out, no shade, and that poor horse was asked to dance over and over and over. He was dripping with sweat and foaming. The MC/announcer kept asking for more dancing. Needless to say, I didn’t attend the prize ride this year.
I’ve seen quite a few horses on “rescue” websites that are being ridden behind verticle. It annoys the hell out of me to see a green horse with 30 days under saddle being ridden by a “trainer” and having its mouth cranked on.
Changing believes or cultural traditions is difficult, but not impossible. it take a lot of time and patience, but the reward is worth it.
Oh me too. In the first 30 days, I don’t agree with riding on contact at all. They are learning to balance. Let them alone so they can do it!
Absolutely. The very basis of all riding is forward, forward, forward. I’ve seen what happens if you add too much contact before the horse is ready. You get either:
A. A head tosser.
B. A stargazer
C. A horse that lets you hold its head up for it.
All three of which are annoying and hard to fix, and all three of which can only be fixed by riding without contact…sometimes for MONTHS. (All three can also be caused by overbitting, especially stargazing, and people who do one of these sins tend to do the other).
Bing! Bing! Bing!
I particularly see a LOT of #C. You bet, if you want to hold up a green horse, THEY WILL LET YOU.
Well, I guess I get to play Devil’s Advocate again. at 6:46 in that video is a man lining a gray horse (Lip?) and yes, using a whip to catch the horse across the tailbone. And THAT was her example of a nice way to teach a horse to piaffe. Frankly, I think the video misrepresents the situation, and it goes to great lengths to make it seem like dressage is the ‘right’ way and anything else is cruel.
Yes, whipping a horse isn’t kind, but frankly there is often no way to tell how a horse is treated behind the scenes. We would like to believe that we can identify the mistreated horses by their foaming mouths and tense expressions, but I know for a fact that there are relaxed, soft moving western pleasure horses who have literally had the piss spurred out of them behind the scenes. There are also kindly treated horses who just flat get hot when they perform a prancing movement– it’s the way they are, and it would be wrong to assume that they are all beaten. Take Pasos– aren’t they the ones with the tense kinked tails? You can’t tell me they are all beaten from birth. How about jumpers who are poled when they begin to drop their legs a little low over jumps? If it comes to that, I’ve seen so called dressage trainers who have more rigging on their horses than the average catamaran.
My point is this– don’t assume, just because that horse is happily performing a movement, that it got there with love and kisses. It might be happy because it finally figured out that as long as it performs that movement, it doesn’t get the crap beat out of it. Likewise, I used to show a pony who always chomped the bit, pranced, and sweated at shows. He was having the time of his life, and I literally NEVER hit that pony– he had a heart big enough to try anything you asked, and a mind that instinctively would try to perform what you asked twice as fast as you really wanted. He also twitched and flinched every single time I touched his neck. He never outgrew that behavior.
If you haven’t been in the barn, sometimes you just can’t tell how that horse reached whatever level it has reached. Is a ‘dancing’ horse a step below a piaffe? Sure, probably, but I’d take a kindly trained dancing horse over a cruelly trained Piaffing horse any day. Naturally, all things equal, I’d take a gently trained dressage horse over a gently trained dancing horse. But I don’t like the fact that the video prefers to focus on face value instead of exploring the possibility that maybe just because a horse looks happy in the ring doesn’t automatically mean it lives a happy life back at the barn in training.
Likewise, some charros and cowboys love their horses and treat them very well. Yes, I get that perhaps the majority of dancing horses aren’t well treated. I just wish I could be convinced that the same wasn’t true of many dressage horses.
Well said! It’s the thing that turns me off of the horse world . . . sometimes. Such a fine line. And, yes, there are lots of things that are “just a part of the culture” and maybe that culture needs to change. For example, for one have a thing against crank nosebands / tight nosebands. Everyone does ‘em up so tight now in the English riding world, it’s part of the culture, and I don’t agree with it. The horse I ride, I do her noseband up two holes looser than the other rider does, and i have no problems, she goes well, doesn’t open her mouth. So why should she have a noseband done up so tight around her mouth?!
Check this out – http://www.realonlinehorse.com/default.html
This link popped up in my facebook ads of all places. To my understanding, the farm is offering different online lease options that give you the experience of owning your own horse, without ever actually visiting the horse. Apparently, people are paying for the privilege! They offer horse descriptions and who would be suitable for them according to how old the rider is, it doesn’t really go into detail of how good of a rider the horse needs or anything actually relevant.
Strange site, I thought I’d share
This video made me cry. I almost quit watching it a few minutes into it but I decided to watch the whole thing. Those poor horses. They don’t want to be doing this, that’s very obvious. There’s no enjoyment, they are just trying to survive. How heartless humans can be at times. This is not “culture”, this is abuse.
This does make me wonder about a Peruvian Paso mare that I came across. The story I was told was that she had been injured by some Mexicans that ran her through the barn with poles. I have no idea why they would do this since she was broke to ride at the time. Supposedly she flipped over and ended up with a spinal injury that made her completely unsound. Now I wonder if they were trying to get her to dance or exaggerate her natural gait. Hmmmmmmmm…..
Not only is this a horrible, disgusting practice from the horse’s perspective, it is also extremely irritating for someone who winds up with one of these animals after this kind of treatment. Not only are you dealing with fear issues, but it took me MONTHS to teach my mare that it was in fact okay to walk like a normal horse.
My trainer is Mexican (Ruben Villesenor) — and he takes flack for it because so many Mexican trainers are brutal. Ruben, though, is extremely gentle and patient with his horses. He welcomes and requires owners to come out while he’s training, you can drop by anytime — but if you want to be sure to see your horse, call and find out when he’s working them. He won’t ride them again, because they’re tired and they’ve done their work. I have two in training with him, and two that he’s finished. I am very pleased with how soft, willing and confident in their jobs they are. I have (free)leased one to a good friend and terrific horsewoman because I need to put hours in on my other newly trained horse. She and her riding instructor are very pleased with what a good solid base my trainer put on this gelding. I say all of this — and then tell you he teaches horses to “dance”.
He does riding exhibitions in which (with one hand on the usual western rein) he has his horse dance. Mostly he uses a quarter horse and an Arab stallion (Shadow). They seem to really enjoy it. They are relaxed and beautiful when they perform. Here is a You-tube of him with a Kiger Stallion (horse is 4 or 5 in this exhibition)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PQQiqdaEfs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PQQiqdaEfs&feature=related
The announcer says the horse is 3.
Yep. Sorry. Just watched it with the sound on.
I have a friend who agrees with dog fighting because it is “in his culture,” and sees no problem with fighting his own pet dog if he were back in the Philippines. That made me sick. Just because those in your country do it, DOES NOT MEAN you have to come to America and do it. This friend of mine does not actually fight his dog, but we were discussing it and they told me that and I was disgusted. I have no problem with mexicans, but I do with those who slaughter, fight, “dance,” and wrongly train their horses. I have seen videos on Youtube of them putting their children on, and trying to train, horses that barely looked a year old.
Yeah, if dog fighting is your culture, you stay in your OWN country and practice it. American dogs don’t want you here!
AHHHH, the machisma Mexican attitudes. Abusing animals is the only way to train them, and the crueler we are the cooler we look to our macho pals. Note we see no Mexican women in these “training” and riding videos.
Basically, they’re soring their horses as well. If you see this type of training on show grounds, report it to the Show Manager and tell them they are violating the HPA, which is the law using pain in a horse’s limbs to cause it to lift it’s legs higher. Using whips and chains on the legs to cause pain IS against the HPA. The manager then can and should contact the USDA and report these people.
So, this looks not only hideous, but dangerous. I have to wonder how many go over backward, with or without a rider. I’d be escared to get on something this petrified and picked on. IDK, just mho.
On to the topic of sponsorships, I love the idea, was just thinking to do the same thing here, only with horses for kids who can’t afford them. I have been blessed with the opportunity to lease a facility that affords me the room and ability to educate more people in common sense horsemanship and take in more horses, rehabbing and reeducating physically and emotionally damaged ones. My idea is to make the unwanted, wanted. Also, to make available to the next generation the opportunity to learn and be a part of that and learn to be part of the solution, rather than remain a part of the problem simply through ignorance of reality.
What I’ve come up against is, a lot of the kids who come my way, not only are in financially strapped families, they are also themselves, many times both physically and emotionally damaged. To see them be able to have one place that is stable (in the other sense of the word) where they are not only treated with respect but can be a part of helping another creature more helpless than themselves and the emotional healing this begins in them, the maturity and responsibility it begins to foster in them is priceless. However, as you all know, not without cost.
The balancing act you all know, not getting in over your head and in need of being rescued your self. That’s when the idea of sponsoring horses for kids came to me. Horses helping people help horses, the therapeautic properties are well documented.
My question to all of you, how do I get it started, I have two horses, 3 ponies, right now and 6 kids in need. I’m already doing all I can, I cant’ do more without getting in trouble financially. I have more time to give but not money.
Thoughts, opinions, ideas? I’m all ears.
I can’t decide which is more disgusting. This shit or the TWH soring shit. Anyone who does either of these things is taking up air that decent people should use. What total and complete losers. “Tradition” my ass.
OMG. It’s like the horse version of water-boarding. I’m sorry, I didn’t have the stomach to watch the whole thing past the very beginning. That is mentally torturing a horse, (as well as physically abusing them).
Look, its like Rollkur and dancing training, all wrapped in one!
Where do you think those horses are headed once they become lame? No one except people like us are going to deal with a horse with issues like that.
Long time reader, this is my first post and sorry that it is OT, but I know Fugly does updates on the Tofield, AB horse auctions on occasion. I came across this posting last night on kijiji ( similar to craiglist, but in Canada)
40 TW horses! For those of you unfamiliar with Tofield, it is a low-end auction in central Alberta.
Regular Horse Sale – Sat. October 23rd – Tofield
Expecting a herd dispersal of 40 tennesse walker horses. Also featuring a 10 yr old paint mare barrel racer. This horse has been running in the WHRA with 2D times this past season. Another 7 yr old black gelding that has been professionally trained for barrel racing. Also a selection of square and round hay bales. All saddle horses are sold in our special feature starting at 2 pm. Tack starts selling at 10:30 am. Beaver Hill Auctions, phone 662-9384 or go to http://www.beaverhillauctions.com for more info. All horses to be sold do require an EID form to be filled out & signed by the owner. To download the form along with instructions, go to our website listed above.
http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/c-pets-livestock-for-sale-Regular-Horse-Sale-Sat-October-23rd-Tofield-W0QQAdIdZ236616182
How anyone can think that the ‘dancing’ horses look good is beyond me – all I see is pain and distress and it doesn’t look good.
On the yearling – by saddle broke does she mean the filly has just had a saddle on or she’s been sat on? Our youngster had his first saddle on around a year old and was long reining by 18 months but he wasn’t lunged till 3 or sat on until 4. If she just means that it’s had a saddle on then I don’t really have a problem with that but if she means it’s been sat on then that is so wrong!
If a horse “doing it in the pasture” is an indication of it being willing, then there are very few willing horses out there. I can say I have never seen a horse jumping 10 plus fences four times each in a short period of time, or a horse doing a reining pattern, barrel pattern, moving so slow they might fall over at the walk trot and lope, side passing, “dancing” etc with their chins touching their chest or any of the other zillions of things humans make them do.
I was watching the QH Congress via computer and in pleasure when they asked for a walk, I almost fell off my chair! It was so weird! The horses look like they were moving in slow motion, a foot would move, then another then another, very slowly like they were drunk and didn’t know where to put their feet!
No one will ever convince me that dressage trainers don’t do the same thing to their horses that we see in the video. I’ve seen too many tail swishing ears pinned horses in dressage to believe anything else. The lipizzaners are trained with pillers! I think it is all the same thing. Sure, some more cruel then others, but still the same.
Right or wrong, humans treatment of animals suck, period. Eating them, riding them, whatever. But if humans can’t find a use for the animals, then they won’t keep them around, good example: Wolves. Nine out of ten people I talk to HATE wolves. They have never seen one, never had an issue with one, but hate them and want them dead.
Humans are notorious for destroying everything they get their hands on.
Bottom line for this rant? Don’t tell me that Dressage horses are more willing then the horses in the video, they are not. Those who believe they are have made it part of their “culture”. Just like any training method.
hey queenofcords, thanks for putting your opinion out there! I like the Stephen Budiansky book called The Nature of Horses — he says that the higher level dressage movements are based on movements that horses only do naturally in moments of great excitement. Which is not something that I’ve ever heard a horse person mention.
Without going on too long here, I think that horses DO like to have a job — they ARE domesticated — but I think that most of our jobs we have for them are totally articifical. As has been said many times here, horses are too damned willing and they put up with too much.
Dressage training . . . one metaphor that works for me is a military comparison — just as a person can get used to a regimented military life with daily marching, so can horses get used to being kept in a stall most of the day and training in an arena day after day after day after day. It’s not natural, but the result is a well-schooled dressage soldier!
Actually, most advanced dressage movements originated as natural movements, yes…the sexual and dominance displays of stallions.
I’ve seen video of two stallions confronting one another doing very nice piaffe and passage…they do it to make themselves look bigger. Rearing and leaping are both ways of showing how strong and powerful and healthy you are.
This is likely the real reason why the SRS only uses stallions…a lot of people believe stallions are easier to train at the higher levels. (Plus, you don’t want to wait until your mare is 15-16 to breed her for the first time if she’s any good…hence also the traditional low usage of mares in advanced competitive dressage, they’ve become more common because of the training short cuts, but a traditionally trained mare needs to be bred *before* proving herself at Grand Prix, or she’s lkely betoo old for a smooth first foaling).
Wow, you must have met some bad “dressage” trainers/riders…
The Spanish Riding School does use pillars – but very rarely and pretty much only for exhibition these days. These horses are already well schooled before they are introduced to the pillars. Once put in the pillars, extreme care and patience is taken to make certain they never feel like these horses in the videos.
Dressage is all about harmony with the horse and the horse being a willing partner. You’ve read WAY to many anti-rollkur blogs and articles if you think all dressage is that way – it’s NOT. I practice dressage, and most of my rides are spent focusing on tiny details to make sure my horse understands exactly what I’m asking him – I have a very willing and capable horse, so if I can ask him in a way he understands, he will do anything. If I confuse him, I know it’s my fault, and I figure out what I’M doing wrong.
If you think the majority of dressage horses are as upset and pissed at life as these dancing horses, you need to come work with some top dressage trainers. Top dressage horses are some of the best trained, most relaxed and educated animals you’ll find. Dressage is all about developing a language with the horse through your aids so that he knows exactly what you’re asking and is never confused. Confusion leads to tension and nerves and dressage aims to reduce tension and confusion. By educating a horse to all the finer points of your aids, he can understand what you want and our domesticated animals/pets tend to be happiest when they know what their human wants and their human can communcate with them in a clear fashion.
Try to reserve judgment on things with which you have little experience. Dressage does have some low life scumbags out there, but as a whole, dressage participants are some of the MOST educated and horse-friendly horsemen you’ll find.
I would agree that MOST horses would rather be loafing in pasture with their only routine to be coming in and getting a rubdown and treats and love, but just because they’d rather be doing that doesn’t mean they HATE all things humans make them do when they’re on their back. Being an upper level dressage horse like what you see at the Olympics takes a very rare individual that has the physical ability but, above all else, the right MIND to accept his work and be able to do it calmly with relaxation. 90% of dressage riders and horses out there will never get above 2nd level which is something most horses can be very happy doing.
Seriously, go take a dressage lesson with a real trainer – I think you’d be pleasantly surprised.
I thought going in to it I would see only Mexican riders and was dumbfounded to see that this happens in the USA. I kept waiting for one of the horses to kill the person whipping it. It seemed reasonable the horse would be driven to kill and was amazed it didn’t happen. I always thought riders had a sense of pride when on their mounts – a good ride, a good performance was something to be proud about. And yet the horses were not performing well, were terrified, the kicking and bucking clearly showing the horses were not trained well – and yet there they are in public seemingly proud of their performance. Unbelievable…
This is completely nauseating. I mean really… my stomach hurts now. I was never aware of this next level of hell in “horse training” (if you can even call it that), so I guess I learned something new today.
On a completely unrelated and way happier note, I got a job house/farm sitting for a woman with 3 horses, 2 donkeys, 2 dogs, and 4 cats over Thanksgiving. I have no idea what to charge though- has anyone ever hired a farm sitter? What did they charge? I was thinking around $50/day. Ideas??
Depends on the area, but I think $50 a day would be more than fair in most areas!
It’s in Fort Collins, Colorado. I’m not very familiar with the Colorado horse scene because I just moved here…. but the barn I’m exercising horses for here is cheaper than the one I grew up at near Seattle, and horses out here are cheaper in general.
I have seen this crap and its just that CRAP and I dont give a frogs flying fat ass if its culture or not. Some “Culture” needs to goto the way side because IT SUCKS>!!!!! The middle east does the same thing with “dancing horses” trained the same way. Hell I would be “dancing” also if someone was shooting bullets near my feet or whipping my legs. I would also be scared shitless. I cant stand it when some dill hole from another country INCLUDING AMERICA says “well its our culture, so and so from year 1120 AD began this “Dancing” and trained in this method and has been tradition this way ever since.” Well did youo ever stop to think that perhaps dillhole from year 1120 might have been WRONG when training in this method???????? Back then they has just as many dillholes to perpetuate a cruel practice just like they do today. (ie the Big Lick TWHs) Stupid fuck brain idiots. This country to used practice “Witch Hunts” also but we have evolved and grown and realize what bull shit that was. Some cultures or traditions need to go back to Hell where they came from and the fucktards that perpetuate it..
Everyone is fooled and it makes me want to vomit. There was a man this year that even rode in the opening ceremonies in WEG on an Andalusian horse and I know for a fact that he trains in this style. Celebrated for his accomplishments and put on a pedestal! Just sick.
What happens mostly behind closed doors or to horses with meek owners. It’s just wrong. People like this don’t belong near animals, let alone in top venues.
Also, on a side note, I have seen some mexicans riding their “dancing horses” through our local parade, over a mile long, on the roads. Can you imagine being scared for that long, and injuring yourself that much for over a MILE on concrete? Not to mention it takes a little more than an hour to make your way through the whole parade, since it is so slow moving.
I think Americans should ban them from things like this. I see lots of people saying “ohh, look at how pretty that horse is!” but the thing is chomping on it’s bit, scared shitless, with a few other horses around it doing the same thing. I think the officials should end it, and stop allowing them to participate in things like parades….
Off topic, but dear lord….
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/for/2011775355.html
I just got back from Germany. My husband made the hotel arrangements, and he sweetly booked us an equestrian hotel in the mountains for 3 nights. The hotel breeds and shows Haflingers, and the horses look pretty good on the website so I was really excited. Turns out in addition to breeding for show purposes they also produce mare’s milk beauty products and have an on-site butcher for their specialty dish: foal meat.
After I saw the menu, I didn’t even want to go pet the horses. I just wanted to get the hell out of there. Unfortunately it was 9pm and we were in the middle of nowhere so we had to stay. Without internet we weren’t able to find anywhere else.
WTF? How is it OK to breed horses intending to slaughter them and serve them to resort guests? I get that Germans and Americans have different cultural mores, but this is messed up. They should have to have a WARNING: WE ARE ASSHOLES label on their website. Haflingerhof, you suck.
Hey,
it´s really nice that you automatically suggest that all Germans support this kind of thing… There are a lot of Haflingers bred every year because the tourists want to see cute little foals when they are on holidays. The breeders just don´t stop and as a result a lot of the foals go to slaughter. There a lot of people who are against this practice and rescues who save these horses.
You´re doing exactly what Fugly (very rightfully) does not want to do. You cannot comment on a whole nation based on ONE experience…
Why not sending them an email telling them why they lost business instead of venting here??
(Is this the right one?)
http://www.haflingerhof.com/kontakt.html
I can assure you that foal meat is sold NOWHERE here in the north of Germany where I live. The south of Germany is quite different from the rest of Germany although a lot of tourists consider Bavaria to be the “real Germay”. Sorry to disappoint, but nobody wears lederhosen here.
I think you’re not understanding today’s thesis. If you think everyone who is German sucks, you are an asshat. If you think that everyone who criticizes anything a German does is a racist, you are ALSO an asshat.
I have several German friends who own horses and they would surely be unhappy as well. I didn’t say that all Germans support eating foals! European attitudes toward food and animals are certainly different than those of most Americans, but most horsepeople I know would be puzzled at the idea of slaughtering and eating show foals. I have a hard time *everywhere* since I’m a lifelong veggie. As much as I wanted to bitch-slap everyone at the hotel, I understand that what they’re doing is legal and somewhat accepted for the region (it also happens in Austria and Switzerland).
I have seen other people blaming tourists for the excess foal crop and that’s bullshit. Responsible breeders don’t crank out babies just to make tourists happy (plus tourists aren’t gonna eat baby horses). Haflingerhof breeds champion horses and they should know better. I would have liked to talk to the Haflingerhof staff but they spoke very little English. We reserved via a 3rd party website. I imagine that they breed to create a supply of horse milk then slaughter the culls, but I can’t confirm that since the only person I could find who spoke English at all was a waitress. My husband doesn’t have the necessary German vocabulary for something like this.
Hey,
that´s exactly how I understood your comment… I may have read more into it than intended but it annoys me to read that Europeans allegedly have such different views on eating horse meat/horses in general. I can only talk about the European countries I´ve been to (Denmark, Norway, England to name a few) and you can get horse meat in most of them but usually only sausages and certainly *not* everywhere. In addition, we don´t live in the wild and most of us treat our horses with a lot of respect (like the Americans
Of course, there are bad apples everywhere, as we very well know from this blog, but I think that the main basics are the same. I cannot vouch for European countries in the South, because I don´t have that much experience with them and have heard some negative things about them.
And yes, a lot of breeders (of course they are not responsible!! Or they wouldn´t do that kind of thing) have foals every year because Haflingers and their offspring are an important part of the picture the want to paint of the area. And because the kids wants to pet little fluffy foals…
It´s not much but at least these foals are not transported to Italy to be slaughtered like so many others… It´s a big problem in the area that a lot of Halfingers, Norikers and Freibergers are “produced” every year and then sold to the salughter. The bredding associations have finally started to acknowledge the problem and try to intervene. Especially the Freiberger breeders try their best. Every Freiberger has to do a test in which it is ridden and driven as well as tested in ground manners. Of course, this is to no use for the foals…
If you want to, I can translate your letter to the Haflingerhof…
For the German-speaking users (Warning! Graphic images!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycfWH6BcT1E
Wow……talk about the vacation from hell! That would be my worst nightmare, to go somewhere like that expecting to have a good time, and see great horse stewardship, then realizing they slaughter foals for the guests!!!!! So sorry that happened to you…..UGH!
Well, that would definitely squick me out a bit.
But to be fair, if all of the horses looked well cared for and they did butchering on site… I don’t know if I’d consider them “asshats.” They likely just have a very different view of horses than most Americans. Perhaps they also produce just a bit of mares’ milk, so it’s done in a humane fashion?
Anyway, it’s weird, and I probably would not want to stay there either. But if all of the animals were well cared for, those other things, though odd to us, might not be so bad. On site butchering makes slaughter much more palatable to me, even though it’s NOT for me.
Betcha didn’t see any fugly haflingers over there either. Bet you see lots in North America. I was told at one time, there was no geldings. If they weren’t suitable to reproduce, they were slaughtered. It was all government controlled. (Could you imagine if our government had to control our horse breeding…..) They never exported the best stock so we technically have their crap (and we send them ours but its on a platter! and pumped full of not-for-human-consumption drugs) .
Well I love my North American bred and registered – fugly to the Austrians, Haflinger gelding.
(Look at the battle we have with humans and their treatment of other human beings in the name of culture. I don’t think horses’ rights will change if womens’ rights haven’t yet.)
Hey, I have a very simple solution… my horse “dances” when she sees a goat… just give the Mexicans some goats to train their horses with
Ha!
All kidding aside, I don’t care what culture you are from, you can’t possibly be so blind to the fact that a horse is in pain and terrified of you. These macho men who ride stallions and beat them into submission, I refuse to believe they love their horses the way “40 year old American women” do. That’s like saying a man who regularly beats the crap out of his wife loves her. No, he sees her as a posession that must either provide instant gratification by obedience, or provide gratification by submitting to a beating. That is not love.
People who abuse animals like this enjoy tormenting that animal. They enjoy feeling superior and imposing their will. They are proud of the fact that they beat the horse into submission because in their sick, twisted minds, doing so proves their macho man status, or whatever. “Look at me I’m a 4 foot tall man who can dominate a 1,200 lb stallion”
People who do this to a horse ought to be tied to a post and whipped, just like they did to that poor horse. Whip them until they can’t walk, then put them down since they aren’t useful any more.
Ha ha, my horse does the same thing…….present him with a herd of cattle, no matter how small, and he can Piaffe with the best of them. ;D
Oh lord, totally off topic, but we brought our goats home recently. Last night, we put the horses inside for the night. I realized that my son’s mare didn’t know she had ‘new’ neighbors (the goats are in the stall next to her). She had stuck her head into her grain bucket, and never bothered to look around. I about died laughing when she finally went to her water bucket, lifted her head, and realized that she had neighbors. It scared the socks off of her!!! She leaped to the other side of the stall, crouched, blew, danced…. And I just couldn’t stop laughing.
Yes, I realize, it wasn’t nice of me. Especially since she’s intelligent, and realized that I was laughing at her. But oh.. Her expression was priceless!!! Silly horse knows our goats– she just hadn’t seen them for a few months, and hadn’t had them as neighbors before.
TOO CUTE. I love goats, have fun with them!
OT but I have got to say somthing. I know from the past that many go on hating and saying stuff about the “SHARK” .org group but if they can get footage of ANY abuse being done (wheather scadulous or not or underhanded or “looking for the trouble”) isnt that still to much? Isnt breaking a horse’s leg in a “wild horse round up” (which i beleive is beyond all senses of the word ROTTEN and HORRIFIC) and or breaking a calfs neck in calf roping or breaking a leg just one to many? Yet we simply go on to say “Well accidents happen”. But then we think we have the right to bash other cultures for thier disgusting displays of “rodeos” (ie Mexican rodeos)???. Did you know that most of those poor animals that get seriously hurt like broken legs or worse yet necks are NOTeven treated afterward but sent off to slaughter to endure the pain of such injury untill a bolt is finally put through thier heads???. Hell, give me the bolt BEFORE I have to suffer. Isnt ONE suffering animal one to many? I know accidents happen even in the most benighn activities but why terrify the animal then increase its risk of being hurt ten fold then hurt it in the name of a Gold belt buckle or a trophy. I try to lessen the risk of ANY injury to myself, my horse, other horses and animals for I dont want ANY animal AT ALL to be injured or have to suffer in the name of money or trophy or big name.
Cattle farming and cowboying WAS CRUEL back when the day. It was rough, was “tough” was merciless and was abusive, was opressive to the animals back then. It was rough and cruel to some humans also. Nature on her own is merciless, rough, tough, cruel and such. But from the mouth of Temple Grandin “Nature is cruel…..WE dont have to be.” Its not even about skill any more. Its about ego, “cant let that 3 month old calf get away from me by God. I’l break its fucking leg if I need to. I’ll teach that calf a thing or two.” Like what, i;ll make you suffer until a bolt is put through your head.????? I’ll body slam you to the ground so hard I bruise your ribs or break your ribs??? I’ll wring your neck untill you can no longer break or move or hell BREAKI”????? Because I am BIG MAN, my ego needs a boost, I will get picked on by the other “BIG MEN”. boo boo hoo hoo.
And that “Shocking’ shit needs to go also. I cant beleive that the AQHA ppl actually sponser rodeos that are known for shocking thier bronc horses. Lets shock the rider insead. Way to go AQHA. Not real happy with the other bullshit you guys sponser or turn your heads and blind eyes to.
Yes I am on a rant today folks, becausE i am TIRED of this crap. tired of abuse (animal and human) oppression, liars, thieves, big shot fuck ups that never get thier due, bilking, twofaced side winding yellow bellied, egotistical, peices of dog sjit ass holes that never get thier due. I am talking from the neighbers to the president to other leaders of other countires and thier ppl including America. THE ENTIRE FUCKED UP SCREWEY ASSED WORLD. i am just plain tired of it.
I understand that some animals are bred to eat, hunted to eat, but must thier lives suck up to the point of demise? Dont they at lease deserve a good life up to the point that they are put to death QUICKLY and MERCIFULLY? Dont the animals that provide with materials of food like milk eggs and etc deserve good treatment and mercifull hands? I grew up on a farm. The cycle of life does NOT HAVE TO BE horrible for the animals in our care. Nor do slaughters, nor do the handlers, and the dealers and etc. ITs hard to feed a world of over 6 billion ppl. This does NOT mean we have to be abusive, sick minded, opressive, cruel or merciless while doing so. The human race has become such a major disgrace. We should be ashamed of ourselves. Isnt it enough to cause misery to ourselves? I am ashamed in so many ways. I may not contribute directly to the misery of the animals but we ALL DO in some way form or fastion. I would love to be my own farmer again. That way I know my animals are living good lives from my pets to my food. No injections of God only knows what. No cramped feed lots. No neglect, no pain for my entertainment, no opression for my amusment, no cramped up uncleaned cages and so forth. For my food animals the mercy of a clean QUICK kill. And for me the knowledge to know when suffering has gone on long enough (ie an ill or hurt animal) and the mercy to stop it.
We are humans and we are fallible but we should learn from our mistakes and grow from them. Not perpetuate them and continue them down the lines of history. No country, or culture is exempt from this.
I am sorry if someone already mentioned this, but The Spanish Riding School (you know, the place where the lovely internationally touring Lipizzaners come from) uses the pillars. I see abuse in this video, but I also see examples of pillar use where there is no real whipping occuring. I’m not pro or anti pillar use, not ever having used them, or knowing enough on the particulars. Are the pillars the abuse or the examples of real whipping the abuse or both?
The problem with pillars is that they inhibit a horse’s ability to go forward, which is very scary for a horse and goes against basic dressage principles.
The Spanish Riding School uses them only sparingly these days, for that reason. The horses that do get put in the pillars have already had a lot of schooling, and the utmost of care is taken to be certain the horses are not confused and know exactly what is being asked of them.
The difference in these videos (yes, all the pillar shots are meant to be examples of abuse) is that these horses are being whipped forward and terrified yet not being allowed to get away – they are being driven forward strongly, but not allowed to move. Horses find this mind-blowingly scary. The images where no whipping was happening just means the horse has accepted his fate and knows he must continue to “flee” though he can’t get anywhere, otherwise the whip will come right back and it’ll be even worse.
I’d imagine that eventually the horse gets less frantic and just learns he is supposed to run in place. This doesn’t mean he’s any less tense, but he probably does figure out he’s not going to die. He learns that pillars = prance lightning fast in place or your butt will get tanned.
The Spanish Riding School has already instilled enough training in the horses that go to the pillars that they can learn their purpose without fear. Because dressage is very much about forward impulsion, I’ve read the SRS continues their use sparingly and carefully and mostly for exhibition purposes. Still, the horses that are asked to go in the pillars are very tuned into their trainers and handlers so they know what is being asked of them. These actions are taught WITHOUT pillars first until the horse gradually understands he must stay in place – the pillars are more for showing off what a horse has learned without them and only slightly for reinforcing these teachings.
In other words, for the SRS, the pillars aren’t mainly a means to an end like they are for the dancing trainers.
OT: Have you guys seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZxJnPZvz-8
I’ve never seen a horse’s hooves grown like that. Yes, the mare was put down.
Wow, that’s hideous.
What a sweet and nice looking mare. I always find it shocking when horses look to be in good weight yet clearly haven’t had any work on their hooves in months. How does that happen? Ugh. Such a shame. She looks like she could have been a useful happy horse in another life = (
I’ve stomached what I thought was the worst of the worst video’s and stayed cool. It killed my desire to eat meat, but I stayed cool. THAT video… You just turned my stomach. I know they needed to footage for testimony or whatever, but I could have gone my whole life without seeing that.
Can we burn copies of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn1_CChs5dw&feature=channel
And send it to the “I didnt realize they where starving to death” IDIOTS!!!! I think it would help them bunches
Oh God! That almost made me throw up! The agony that poor girl must have been in…..thank God she was put out of her misery, but there’s no telling how long she suffered like that. How could anyone look at her like that everyday and do nothing! When will the stupidity end!?!?!?
From reading Joe Shelton’s blog, TB Friends, the Mexican rodeo thing is common, and even though it is against the law in California, the local authorities refuse to do anything, because “we need the labor” and the stupid “It’s their culture.” argument. So the lazy chickenpoop local authorities are just as guilty!! My approach is if there are humane Mexicans and I know there are, they need to shut these torture sessions DOWN. And if someone wants to deface all the good things about Mexican culture by torturing horses, they can go back across the border, and stay there.
When my son was about 3, he asked me “Mom, what does “macho” mean?” I said, “It’s another word for stupid.” Meant it then, mean it now, 22 years later.
Standard practice in So Cal. Why do they do this? Al it takes is a simple three letter word…
EGO
This is not a culture that goes back deep into their heritage. This is a new culture.
Just like they pimp out their cars… they pimp out their horses (literally and figuratively). Stallions are prized, baroque breeds are prized. “Fancy’ is the key word. There are some very well bred and gorgeous animals in my area. The young guys start out on the cheap horses and the lessor sought after breeds.
Whipping, pillars, chains, harsh bits, overworking in deep sand, tight circle/spinning, head tying- all standard practices in ‘training’ around here.
Horse tripping is done because horses are more challenging than cattle, just like donkies are more challenging. There are different horse tripping games and points awarded to how the horse is tripped.
You can pick up any of these *spent* horses for real cheap at the local auctions. We unlaughingly refer to the second Saturday of the month as ‘trash pick-up day’ in Mira Loma. If you’ve been to Mike’s Auction- you know what I’m talking about.
I really need to head out to that auction one of these days…with a camera.
I say we throw one of these http://www.eastvalleytack.com/webstore/82335.htm in their mouths, tie them up to pillars, tie chains to their ankles, take off their shoes and whip the hell out of their feet and legs and make them “dance”. This makes me sick. If you cannot train a horse without fear you shouldn’t be allowed to touch a horse. I have no problem giving a horse a come to jesus moment when they are displaying dangerous and bratty behavior, but there is NO reason to use pain and fear to get a certain movement or trick EVER. I just don’t understand what the hell is wrong with people.
Oh that bit is way too nice need something a friend of mine used to “Tune up” her horse in….Like this
http://pards.com/Products/ProductID/4064 Only the port was about 1/2″-3/4″ above the shank and the shanks where 10″. Its Illegal (to show in) but it was trendy to own and use them to train at the time, but like all great fads it disapeared. The sad part is that I only had to type in Cathedral port and the interwebs popped up several hundred places selling them. So they still sell and are being used, though none of them looked too severe in comparison.
msptrainer says: October 21, 2010 at 3:05 pm So, this looks not only hideous, but dangerous. I have to wonder how many go over backward, with or without a rider. I’d be escared to get on something this petrified and picked on. IDK, just mho.
On to the topic of sponsorships, I love the idea, was just thinking to do the same thing here, only with horses for kids who can’t afford them. I have been blessed with the opportunity to lease a facility that affords me the room and ability to educate more people in common sense horsemanship and take in more horses, rehabbing and reeducating physically and emotionally damaged ones. My idea is to make the unwanted, wanted. Also, to make available to the next generation the opportunity to learn and be a part of that and learn to be part of the solution, rather than remain a part of the problem simply through ignorance of reality.
What I’ve come up against is, a lot of the kids who come my way, not only are in financially strapped families, they are also themselves, many times both physically and emotionally damaged. To see them be able to have one place that is stable (in the other sense of the word) where they are not only treated with respect but can be a part of helping another creature more helpless than themselves and the emotional healing this begins in them, the maturity and responsibility it begins to foster in them is priceless. However, as you all know, not without cost.
The balancing act you all know, not getting in over your head and in need of being rescued your self. That’s when the idea of sponsoring horses for kids came to me. Horses helping people help horses, the therapeautic properties are well documented.
My question to all of you, how do I get it started, I have two horses, 3 ponies, right now and 6 kids in need. I’m already doing all I can, I cant’ do more without getting in trouble financially. I have more time to give but not money.
So, I posted this in the am, not one comment. Fugs, your always looking for people ready to step up the the plate, and I am, where is everyone?
Thoughts, opinions, ideas? I’m all ears.
Hope that link works. It is a beauty! Not! Looks like Mexico.
http://www.1cheval.com/membre/forum/general/sujet-2256760-0-video-bizarre
Such jerk don’t deserve to be around horses much less riding them (drunk or is that jerk the village macho idiot on a stud horse and is normally that stupid?) on a slippery street on top of that! Poor horses. Mexico is the second biggest consummer of horse meat in the world after China, so once they are done using them and crashing them like that drunken village idiot does, they eat them.
Several videos are shown here, the site is in French but no translation needed for stupid and abuse. They look like they were shot in Mexico:
http://www.1cheval.com/membre/forum/general/sujet-2256760-0-video-bizarre
scroll down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4XPWAj3IQ8
SuperSTB is absolutly correct. I live (unfortunately) in Mira Loma, and I can’t tell you how many times we have called animal control about abuse . It really is not taken seriously by the authorities here. My aunt lives in a nice hilltop area of Covina, some of these type of “Trainers” moved in across the street from her. She called A/C because a horse had been tied to a pole all day with no water. The response she got, “Thats how they train them, there is nothing we will do”.
Really OT But have you ever heard of this breed??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V32ifBnzNio&feature=related Who ever the guy is posting this videos hes trying hard to get the word out about the breed or hes incredibly bored!!
They remind me of an awesome mix between a paso and an arab….and from what I read they breed for the ears to touch.
Yes! I only found out about them a little while ago when I started playing howrse (had to get my horse fix some how) and out of the few breeds they had to choose from, that was one of them, and I ignored it for the longest time and then I got bored and decided to look it up and realized how cute they are! I love those ears!!
I’d love to learn more about them. Do their ears affect them in a bad way?
i had an instructor that always told us that before we did anything to our horses we should ask ourselves: “will i be able to look at myself in the mirror, and know that i have done right by my horse”
if only everyone lived by that ideal
Unbelievable. I’ve watched this blog now for two years. I’m am now convicnced all you people want to do is rant. What a collasal wast of my time.
msptrainer, you are colossal waste. In addition you do not now how to spell. Stop reading the blog and move on you colossal waste of time. You have no idea what the people who read this blog do. How would you know just by reading their comments whether or not all the do is rant, like yourself, if one is making that hasty judgment based on someone commenting on the blog. I myself volunteer at a horse rescue in addition to many other life fulfilling things. We learn from what we read here and it opens our eyes to research the many issues that are discussed. Clearly it has fallen on your colossal deaf hears. Stop wasting your time and move on.
It is shit like this that makes me so tired of being in the horse business. It is disgusting. Maybe I am too emotionally attached and think of my horses as equals (sort of, I know there has to be a leader), a partner who trusts and one who deserves life quality free of starvation and abnormal fear. I get especially disheartened every time I hear about it in regular disciplines particularly ones that are publicly viewed. No one knows, except insiders, what goes on behind closed doors at the barn. I wonder if any one discipline is free from it or if you just try something until you run into the disturbing training methods needed to get a horse to a higher level then give up and start a new discipline. You can’t even just move onto another trainer because they won’t always tell you the truth nor will they work with you if they think you are shit disturber. I have been working with a very good dressage trainer who is kind and patient and my horse and I are happy. Now I just have to live with being lumped in the same block as the rollkur users.
I wish we had a “like” button. Sam, I like what your instructor told you. I have always said of questionable practices is that if that’s what it takes to get there (higher levels), I am not interested.
Don’t know if this has already been posted. My computer keeps freezing up when I try to scroll down. I love this. Paying $19k to have your horse screwed up. Amazing! http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-285154
Hi my name is Rommina Aguilar and I live in Sonora Mexico.
I’m studying a quite new form/discipline of riding in Mexico, and I’ve talked with horse trainers of this type, I’ve gone to horse shows, I’ve even taken a look at the Dancing horse Association Rule book.. final conclusion? it makes me want to puke all over it, this industry and this association do nothing more than promote horse beating all taken to a different level. This kind of riding has been spreading to the United States fairly quickly, you can find videos on YouTube of trainers promoting themselves as “Haute ecole” riders and offering their services to an uneducated community, I’ve found several videos of trainers found in Washington, Colorado, California, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico etc. Mostly training young two year old colts to perform a bad piaffe.
*this is not a form of tradition, I’ve based all the information on true facts, even took the time to talk to a historian who has been studying the history of the north east states, where it’s believed that this discipline was born. The oldest records of dancing horse training were hardly twenty years old, in the Mayan Valley here in Sonora. A lot of mediocre trainers use Tradition as a lame excuse for their bad training techniques, and hide behind this being part of the Mexican culture, when once again it is not.
Dancing horses are based on a drug cartel culture, where expensive horses (most of these people spend big money importing/buying Spanish horses just for the main purpose of making them dance) and fancy tack represent money and status. They are not charros, and even if they dress like charros, their whole attire is far from being the traditional one since it usually lacks a lot of important details, same goes with the saddles, a real charro would never use a saddle with silver details crafted into it, or with a silver saddle horn, because they would easily brake if used for work or real lazo work, plus it would not be the traditional saddle and it would give a whole different look to it.
* so Dancing horse training, is not a form of old tradition having been around for hardly 2 decades possibly 3 at most, and it’s based on a drug cartel culture.
* a lot of machismo going on, the more you beat your horse, the cooler you look.
*trainers know this is wrong, and self proclaim themselves to know dressage and train haute ecole movements. lies lies lies. I’ve tested quite a few, they hardly know anything about the real principles of such.
The dancing horse association encourages owners to train their horses to lift their legs higher (this encourages owners to beat their horses legs even more just to win), to be able to perform a piaffe for periods of times of over 3-5 minutes, and to dance inside a small square of approximately 2 meters x 3 meters. You can get disqualified if you beat your horse too much, but I would love for them to define “beating too much”, for I’ve seen riders hit their horses endless times in the show ring and never get penalized. These competitions give out big cash to the winners.
The judges have no knowledge of real riding as far as I’ve noticed, just people who have a good status amongst society and who are somehow related to horses, yet never involved deeply with true riding.
The rule books have no real bases of true riding.
The association encourages more and more people to start training their horses to do this.
So your horse may not know how to do anything at all. but as long as it dances, you are a winner to them.
Honestly, this makes me sick. It takes no rocket scientist or horse expert to see when these horses are doing this they are not happy and are completely stressed. There is no flow to this, it is not art and it looks like stupid, it is no dance. It is beyond belief what people believe they can justify when they are cruel to animals. Your right, I just want to kick their ass, or better yet lets get a cattle prod and make these asshats do a little dance. Who’s in?
It is people like this that make me ashamed to be part of the human race.
What we should do is get a machine gun, aim it at their feet in ortder to teach them how to tap dance!
I’m teaching my horse piaffe – and guess what? She doesnt require beating to do it. Hell, if I touch (Note: Touch being the keyword here) her with the whip more times than she thinks is agreeable(Even if it is an accidental tickle on her leg), she stops and threatens to rear. My solution? Drop the reins, give her a pat, and be done piaffeing for the day.
This vide shows so many gorgeous horses (that buckskin- DROOL!) that do not deserve to be treated like that! They wouldnt deserve to be treated like that even if they were butt ugly, but its such a waste.
And its appaling that humans take advantage of these horses forgiving nature- as well as their fleeing instinct.
The fact that these people have it in them to hit a horse like that at all is crazy, because I’d be terrified. It is after all 500 kg of bone and muscle.
Stupid, stupid people. Who’s up for teaching them to tap dance?