Boundaries – not just for teenagers!
Aug 31 2010
After the whole discussion the past two days about the aggressive stallion who has hurt his owner pretty significantly, I thought today was a good day for a discussion about boundaries.
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If I think about it, the lack of boundaries is probably at the root of my dislike for a lot of natural horsemanship training that I see being practiced. The horse simply doesn’t ever get a clear, concise signal that something he did was wrong. Therefore, being a horse, he starts to expand the range of his behavior. He says, hey, if I barged into him and that was okay, maybe I can smack him with my head the next time. And there was that day when I was fidgety and she didn’t ride me because Pat says it’s ok not to ride on a day when they don’t feel like being ridden, so maybe this time I will strike at her in the cross-ties. I bet that will get me put back. It does, too. The problem is, within months the horse is at the auction and by now he’s behaving so badly, no one but Mr. Kill Buyer wants him. I call it killing with kindness. People try to form this sweet, punishment-free bond of love with their horse, and they end up creating a rank, out of control horse they are scared of – and then the magical bond of love breaks and they dump him at the sale. Amazing how that happens.
Horses are pretty much exactly like kids in this respect. No, you don’t have to – nor should you – beat them. But you do have to set boundaries they can’t ever cross without consequences they don’t like, and the consequences have to be simple and immediate. And believe it or not, they will still love you when you do this! They’ll actually love you more. Love is strengthened by respect in both human and human-animal relationships, and horses are actually the easier ones to set boundaries with so they are a good place to practice. 
For example, if a horse is trying to barge along, I don’t just run alongside like a kite on a string. I take the time to stop, growl, back the horse up a few steps and then ask him to proceed at the speed I was wanting to walk. Yes, this takes time. Part of the reason bad habits get created is that people are in a hurry. A groom may have fifty horses to put out into individual turnouts, so the last thing he wants to do is mess with teaching yours not to drag people. Or you yourself may be in a hurry and not think it’s a big deal – but it really is a big deal. Those little incidents where the horse lacks respect blossom into bigger and bigger incidents until you’re the one with the broken nose, or worse.
One of the most important things you can teach a horse is plain old “whoa” aka “ho.” Whoa means that you plant your feet on the ground and that is where they stay. It is not a suggestion. I have seen people ho-ho-ho’ing like Santa Claus and the horse still isn’t listening. When you realize you’re doing that, you know that your horse isn’t taking your command seriously at all. It is time to escalate to something he takes seriously. It is not abusive to lead a horse who barges with a whip and give him pop on the chest if he doesn’t stop on the voice command. Just walk right next to him with that whip in front of his chest and ask him to stay at your shoulder where he belongs. And when he does stop on the voice command only, politely, make sure you pet him and tell him he’s good. Make simple rules and make sure good behavior is always rewarded and bad behavior is always corrected. It should go without saying that nothing works if you aren’t consistent. The same bad behavior needs to result in the same response on a consistent basis. It can be a whip or the flat of your hand. If you’re leaving welts for anything less serious than striking at you or charging at you, you’re overdoing it in my book. The point of the correction is a quick sting that says “that was the wrong thing to do.” The goal is not to create an injury because you are angry. I’ve said it before here, and so has every good trainer in the world – never discipline in anger. All discipline should be is you saying to the horse that what he did was totally unacceptable and should not be repeated. It is never about revenge, anger, or putting on a show because people are watching and you think you look like a cowboy/cowgirl. (P.S. You never do if you’re doing that. You just look like a douchebag!)
So let’s talk about this today: I want to hear about horses you got that were spoiled and had no boundaries, and how you installed boundaries and good manners and got them back to being productive members of equine society. I’m sure these stories will benefit other readers who are dealing with the same challenges, so bring them on!
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NH is full of problems. Some of the methods are neatherthal like. And there is too much of a “us versus them” mentality. For example, Clinton Anderson routinely whacks horses with a stick or yanks on their faces without making it clear to the horse what he wants them to do. This creates fear, though some people call it “respect.†It does not create trust. And the fear inhibits learning. I can get a horse to move away from me in half the time without creating fear and the needless stress to the horse. The desensitizing that many NH trainers do by freaking the horse out is completely unnecessary, creates great fear and also does not create trust. Every time the horse reacts in fear to the offending object the possibility for that reaction is recorded in the nervous system. This is especially important when putting on a saddle for the first time. If the horse bucks the trainer has failed big time because the horse’s nervous system records the bucking as a possibility to do when the saddle is put on. If you avoid the bucking by doing the initial saddling carefully, the horse won’t learn that bucking is an option. They doesn’t mean he will never buck he just will not learn to buck because of the initial saddling.
If “trainers†would learn: positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment and how to apply them correctly they would find horses learning better and faster. I stopped a young mare who ran the fence line when she wanted to come in by positive reinforcement at about 150 yards. This mare was creating a trench by the gate by running, doing a roll back and running, doing a roll back. She even cut herself when she hit the fence hard. Because there was a direct line of sight from my barn to the gate. I stood with my arms crossed until at some point she stopped and looked my way. Then I immediately walk toward her. As soon as she moved. I stopped and crossed my arms. It took me 20 minutes to get the the gate the first time I did this! And she also threw a temper tantrum. But once she learned I was not coming unless she stood still, she stood still and waited!! It took a long time for this to be foolproof. She is and OTTB and has tons of energy. It has worked with other horses as well.
I got a new horse in training about 10 days ago. He is 6 and pleasant but overly enthusiastic about his food and was not polite when I opened his stall door to put his food in. So I did what I always do to teach horses to be polite. I waved my hands and shooed him away from his feed tub. He ran back and forth trying to get to his food but I kept shooing him away until, finally, he turned his head away from me. I immediately dumped his food into his tub and left the stall. It took 3 feedings for him to get this. Now he moves away and turns his head away as soon as I come in his stall with his food.
You also have to understand how and when to use food. Food is a very strong motivator and horses can learn very quickly when food is used as a reward. But there should be strict rules used regarding food. The main one is the horse should NEVER TAKE FOOD AWAY FROM YOU!! The horse should see the food as a gift from you. The mare decides when baby is going to eat when he is not going to eat and baby better be polite about it too. You can use this too. Never let the horse nose you for treats, always feed them away from your body. In fact, you should be able to hold a treat in front of your horse and have the horse wait for your signal to take it. When used in this way, food is a great way to teach a horse something quickly, to create a positive association about something and keep his attention on you. I have used it successfully with very herd bound horses and it works well especially when I combine it with TTouch. I use it while riding some of the OTTBs. I occasionally stop them and reach forward and give them a cookie. It helps keep their focus on me and how great is it to have an OTTB that would otherwise by a little crazy keep asking, “can we stop and have a cookie now?†This is especially helpful when hacking them out! You can quickly phase this out when you no longer need it.
NH gets a bad rap because it is limited in its scope and because so much of it relies on negative reinforcement and punishment that it easily becomes abusive when the trainer runs out of options. I think it was Zenophon who said, “Where knowledge ends, violence begins.
“For example, Clinton Anderson routinely whacks horses with a stick or yanks on their faces without making it clear to the horse what he wants them to do”
I’ll admit that I don’t watch Clinton Anderson all the time, but I have been to one of his tours, and I’ve watched many of his DVD’s. Never once have I seen him not make it clear what he wants the horse to do. One of his sayings is “always reward the slightest try”, which of course is not specific to CA, but I’ve always seen him do just that. All that to say, perhaps you are not quite as much of an expert on Clinton Anderson as you are inclined to think.
That is what I’m talking about – Clinton Anderson doesn’t just go around “whacking horses with a stick” You have entirely taken his actions out of context. He has you “suggest” then continually apply pressure until the horse gives you any slight “try” and immediately release. I think it’s people who misinterpret the clinicians that are the people causing the magority of the damage. Of course you are never going to get anywhere by just whacking on a poor horse and yanking on the halter with no rhym or reason. If you’ve seen Clinton Anderson in action at all, and that’s what you get out of it, you really weren’t listening.
I really enjoyed reading your post. I have an OTTB and am really learning a lot; your post made a lot of sense and gave me some take-aways for working with my boy.
Oh have I got a story for this one: so when I was studying in N. Ireland at one of the agriculture schools there, we were required to do morning and evening chores on a rotating basis. There was one horse that would just full out lunge, ears back, teeth barred, whenever anyone would bring him his hay. So he came at me one time and I stuck my knee out and nailed him one, hard, near the girth area. Clearly not anything that would do damage, but I was not about to tolerate his awful manners. He, of course, straightened up and backed right off, like “what the heck was that??” Gave him his hay, turned around, and got REAMED by one of the instructors. “Do you kick horses like that in America??!!” She was one of those touchy-feely NH types too. I couldn’t believe that I was not allowed to defend myself! I have been and always will be a stickler for ground manners, and cannot stand when people let their horses get away with stuff like that.
I bred a mare I owned years ago on the advice from a vet that it would help regulate her hormones without using regumate or spaying her. She was a smallish mare about 15.2 Appendix all bay with a small star and one hell of an attitude. Her show record was awesome, you put her in the show ring and she really tuned in and was literally unbeatable. Hunters, Jumpers, Eventing she didn’t care she loved the work, but you could never get anything accomplished at home, away she was an angel (the way I prefer it honestly). She was a very well bred (if not slightly backyard, you know what I mean the one time the breeder gets lucky?) had good conformation but was a royal bitch when she wasn’t in heat, trust me we tried to keep her in heat to no avail. So, I decided to take the advice of the vet and breed her, I waited for months while researching what I personally wanted in her foal, especially attitude wise.
We bred her AI to Art Deco and got a lovely black and white (with splashes of brown) pinto colt. He was registered AWS and was an absolute doll. Very small to begin with he slowly began growing until at the age of 3 he was 17.2 and ½ (YIKES), I knew that physically there was no way I could handle this guy anymore (I am very short) and sent him to a trainer to be worked with as myself and my trainer(s) debated whether or not he should keep his balls. We came to the decision after he came back from a very good NH trainer, he was respectful and kind on the ground as well as undersaddle, he got as far as 4th level when he just went nuts. We tried everything, but could not figure out what was causing the behavior, we took him to a schooling show to see if it was the environment that was causing this (he had plenty of turnout with the mini donks at home and was fine there), we came to check on him after the show to get him ready to go home and there he was stretched out dead as a door nail. I had the body sent to a university and it came back he had a brain tumor, the vet thinks he had it for years (hence sending him to the trainer in the first place), but he also thinks it only affected him at certain times.
After that experience I decided to never breed again, I had a gorgeous sweet boy who was the love of my life and he left me too soon. Now I keep to my geldings and am perfectly healthy, although I do drool over some of the wb babies occasionally.
Any way, he was very nice on the ground until the tumor started affected him, he was 6 when he passed and was just under 18hands. Everyone complimented him on his manners, he could walk by mares in heat and not care. So much for that.
I used to board at a farm that had an Art Deco son (gelding now, and still lives at the same farm). Absolutely gorgeous but a pistol. I knew him since his birth, to a mare with a huge attitude and there was only one person who could handle him, a 15 year old girl of all people who needed to be picked up whenever the colt needed to be caught and moved from one pen to another. He still can be a bit of a pill in middle age but usually pretends to be a good boy unless he thinks he can get away with something.
Given Art Deco isn’t THAT big, I have to wonder if the brain tumor wasn’t affecting his growth hormone levels.
Such a shame.
My NH trainer was all about boundaries so I’m not sure why people think NH is about letting your horse get away with bad behavior. Can it be that NH appeals to people who have trouble understanding that discipline does not equal abuse?
A friend gave me a horse. Really cute large pony that they absolutely could not get near! She was broke to ride, but the one and only time they rode her, the teen fell off and broke her wrist. When her elderly pasture mate died, they turned her loose with other livestock and couldn’t get within touching distance even with food. I took her (what a rodeo it was to sort/catch her!), and she was so hard to catch we had to put up extra gates and panels just so we could gradually shut her into smaller and smaller pens! Every day we would separate her from the other horses, then present her food tub. She was not allowed to eat until we could put a halter on her. At the beginning it took an hour and a half of keeping her moving before we could halter her. My daughter rode her regularly, even teaching her to jump cross poles and by the time we sold her, you could walk right up to her anywhere, alone or in a group.
Wow, are you on target today! I am currently two months into ownership of my first yearling in 10 years. Other horse and pony are 19 and 25, respectively, and are basically on autopilot. I’m a pretty strict disciplinarian, I believe that horses, like kids are happier when they know their boundries, and do not have to waste time/effort constantly pushing them. My new filly is reasonably well disciplined and trained for her age. The few times she has actualy pushed, she met with enough “alpha mare” reaction that she hasn’t tried again. BUT the constant day-to-day of “no, don’t stand so close to me,” “no, you do not HAVE to stick you head over the fence while I am opening the gate, ” etc., make me feel like I am picking on her, over being too harsh for these irritation level offenses. She is like a toddler who just doesn’t know where to put her feet and hands. Any opinions?
Sounds like my filly. I’m new to raising a foal and just about NHd her into being a total disaster. My husband’s riding coach has a lot of experience with foals and has been giving me some pointers… first thing she showed me was to present this naughty filly with boundaries and not to allow her to act even the tiniest bit naughty. It was hard for me… she was snuggly and loved on me so much but what I didn’t get was that I was allowing her to push me around. I was so used to it that I just didn’t see it. She is now much better behaved but she tests me every single day. I know what you mean about feeling like you are nagging… but it is better to be clear, I am learning.
As far as leading beside, as opposed to dragging, goes, I taught all my horses to lead behind me. Then if I want them to lead beside, it’s simple, and they’re not dragging me about. If the get heavy and start hanging back, I lunge them around, and if they start barging forward, I back them up. I have an 18y/o gelding who was a pain to lead – it was borderline dangerous. After one day of groundwork he lead behind me, quite possibly for the first time ever. I started not letting him barge through gates, instead I’d let him put one foot over, back up, one foot, stop, two feet, back up, one foot, you get the picture. I’ve been doing that for three days now, and it has made such a difference! I’m so upset I didnt’ do this eariler!! And if you care to know, I’ve been doing Clinton Anderson’s groundwork with him. The real “NH” stuff.
I have a Parelli trained pony. Never again. He mouths, paws, crowds, spooks at everything and if you dare discipline him he urinates all over himself or rears up and flips over. Sweet little pony in the field, and a joy to ride, but just has never ever been disciplined. When I first got him he would balk on the lead, so I would give him a firm tug, that would spook him and he would rear. I started carrying a crop because it got to the point where he would rear almost every time you led him. He’d go up and I’d smack his belly. He’d spook and run around in circles like a fool but at least his feet were on the ground. Once I got so fed up with his balking and rearing and blowing past you, that I put the chain over his nose, made him run himself into a little circle, and when he stopped and balked, I gave one good pop with the lead shank on his nose, he went up full height, and using all the force I could muster, I yanked him over sideways. Needless to say I scared the shit right out of him, but he never reared again. He still balks every so often, but now you just give him the ‘I-will-kill-you-if-you-do-not-move’ eye, then turn around and walk on and he will totter behind you quite willingly.
He is also herd bound, which is tolerable until you take him into the barn alone. Once you clip him into the crossties and let go of him, he pulls back, realizes he is caught, spooks right out, then flips. It’s great fun. Oh the joys of Parelli. Oddly enough, even though his old owner never disciplined him, he never acted up like this. He was just spooky and silly. Maybe I just haven’t mastered the art.
He is so innocent when he misbehaves though, all you can do is laugh at the situation. For instance, he will mouth me, and I’ll give him a pop in the lip and a NO! (some people don’t mind mouthing, I believe mouthing is the gateway to biting, and I treat it as such) so then the pony will back up, look at you like a hurt puppy, then come right back over and stick your hand is his mouth. Now he gets scolded, and then ignored. If he can’t play nice he doesn’t get to play. Mind the second you go over to him he is reaching his mouth out to you. Sigh. If this pony could live in the house and snuggle into your lap and chew the buttons and zippers off your clothes, he would be the happiest creature alive. Since I won’t let him do this, he acts like a dramatic tragedy.
Please give your pony a kiss and an apple for me.
Call his former owner and tell her that when you discipline him he’s peeing all over him self and scared to the point he’s falling down. Explain to her that you have had to resort to pulling him over. Ask her if she’s consider buying him back. I am in Washington State and I would love to take him off your hands and he could snuggle with me and life wouldn’t be for some reason he considers a tragedy.
He is a child’s pony. He needs to be safe, and he was not safe. I pulled him over because he reared and was becoming dangerous, he never did it again. I have pulled over a couple horses, it is a last resort and it works, kinder then leading him with shanks and crops, one shot and it was over. He was never taught respect and has no idea what it is to learn it, combine that with being incredibly spooky and you get my little guy, have you ever worked with a very spooky horse? It is rare, but some are so sensitive the urinate or poop everywhere, or flip to avoid something. He is a saint undersaddle and can jump the moon. I don’t mind his fixable manner and spooky issues, just takes time.
I do not beat this pony, but I do not let him rear, paw, bite, nibble, squish, head butt, or rub me. My pony doesn’t like the fact he gets disciplined for it, tough luck for him. He is pushing 700 lbs, he does not need to be in my lap. If you want a horse to snuggle and use you as a chew toy then that’s great. I don’t.
His owner is also aware, he has been like that since day one, always very spooky, which is why she just wanted to be his equal and not discipline him. She was all love and kisses and snuggles, and his life was sunshine and butterflies, heaven forbid he is owned by someone who tries to help his fear issues instead of sugar coating them and actually disciplines when he does wrong. None of that friendship and love Parelli bullshit. Leadership, trust, discipline and reward is what brings a horse around.
Yes, I have worked and ridden spooky horses and ponies, starting in the sixties actually. I have also a few BLM mustangs and one was very reactive and incredibly spooky, but I have not had to resort to knocking him over and so far so good. (A more dangerous BLM horse here did end up on the ground). I think the spooky one is the kind of horse who could easily have gone permanently mental, but he’s super nice now. Never in my life have I ever seen a horse so scared or upset he peed himself. Poop yes. They poop a lot when nervous.
Working with the BLM horses I have found it useful to have a flexible mind and to treat each horse differently. Over the years I’ve some across many horses who have problems that have been almost impossible to overcome and I believe the source of their problems comes from not just letting them get away with murder but also something that was pretty terrifying to them in their training. Something THEY considered terrifying but other horses are fine with.
Anyway, I don’t think you are abusing the little guy. I have resorted to self defense moves like punches in the chops, kicking back and even bit one horse who bit me….made him squeal. I don’t prescribe to any particle training method because all horses are different. Your original post made me sad; a little pony so scared he was peeing his pants and all he wanted was to snuggle. lol. I still want him! At my age and state of repair I find myself wanting to snuggle with horses rather than ride them. Give him that apple for me….and a kiss.
It’s not pretty but I understand about having to do “ugly” things sometimes. Sometimes doing things such as this are the difference between an otherwise dangerous horse living a useful life or being put down forever. It’s a last-resort sort of method. I don’t like it either but if it saves the horse’s life, so be it. I’ve seen a broodmare knock her colt clear across a paddock for misbehaving (jumping up on mom and biting her) … this much more violent/forceful discipline than any human could deliver, and that was a 2.5-month-old foal. Consequences for misbehavior.
I had an OTTB that knew how to “turn and burn” while being led. My crusty old cowboy trainer said he could fix it in about 30 second. Ran a nerve line and let the horse do his thing. He wound up on the ground with the wind knocked out of him … and never, ever tried that again. To my amazement, he lifted his head with a “how did you do that?” look, got up, shook off and was fine. Had a very minor abrasion behind his ears, about 1/8-inch wide and 2 inches long, just rubbed off the hair. It didn’t make him head shy or hard to bridle. He was a very useful, sound horse that, as far as I know, still is a heck of a roping horse at 20+ years old.
Yeah, I do not have a big problem with someone doing that, and the other thing I totally defend is people who know how to properly flip a rearer and step off safely. It DOES fix them, from what I’ve seen, and fixing that habit keeps them out of the kill pen. Better one scary experience for the horse than the meat hook.
LOL sure thing. He is all about the treats. Which is great, scary situations can be turned into a buffet of cookies. When your head is jammed in a feed pan, the world seems a much less frightening place! That and you can’t flip over backwards and break your neck if you are concerned with cookies. I always reward staying calm and good behavior, it’s misbehavior turning dangerous I don’t like. Spooking because I tugged the lead and then deciding to come down on me with hooves, yea not so much. His old owner said she treated him as an equal and did not discipline him as he needed to ‘figure things out on his own’, no boundaries at all, how does a horse figure out that you are the boss if he gets away with blue bloody murder? If I have a horse trying to jump on my back, I dunno, equal be damned. I don’t encourage bad behavior by trying to be friends. I can’t be treating him too badly, he follows me all over the yard like a dog and squeals like a baby if I pay attention the my other horses before him. He just has zero manners. I blame it on the Parelli. I embrace some NH methods, and my abused and seriously rank gelding turned out great, as he knows exactly where my lines are drawn. This pony has no lines at all.
Another great article.
It drives me nuts when I see people kissing their horses on the nose etc. I just saw an add for a . young lady who wants to learn to train horses. She would do it John Mills style as he appears to love horses from what she’s read. Yup that’s right all of her knowlege came out of books. Now she wants to practise what she’s learned in those books on peoples horses. She’s looking for someone to coach her for free. I bet there will be a multitude of horse trainers lining up to let her use their horses for Ginny Pigs.
Well I would drive you nuts then. My little gelding gets bulk kisses on his nose and smooches but… he is also put back in line should he not be behaving. He is an OTTB, had him since he was barely 3 and he is now just turned 4 and has a few ‘quirks’ also well known from his sires line. His ground manners have improved 100% and he is a lot more confident little horse, he is also coming along in leaps and bounds and hope to have him competing in Show Horse classes (an Australian event, I don’t think the US do it) by the end of the year or early next. He has gone from a little gelding on his way to a knackery to a nice little member of my equine community
So… what I am trying to say is just because you see someone smooching with their horse, don’t presume they don’t also know how to correctly control/discipline said horse.
i’m currently working with a very, very intelligent, very, very alpha mare. I don’t think she’s necessarily spoiled, i think she’s just the sort of horse who will always test her limits. Her owner loves that i won’t put up with the mare’s nonsense and that i’m not afraid to push back when she pushes me.
Recently i had the mare in the roundpen, trying to take pictures of her in motion. She would go around a little and then stop. At one point, in a very smooth, very calculated move, She turned her hind to me and kicked out in my direction – not aiming to hurt, not even really threatening to do me harm, just establishing that no, she was NOT going to do what i was asking, eff you, lady, i’m in charge.
I went and got myself a longe whip and proceeded to use it to keep her going until i was satisfied that she was being respectful to me as an authority.
There was another small incident, the details of which i don’t even remember, just a couple days ago. Some little thing she tried to do (she’s full of little quirks) and i quickly put a stop to it. Another boarder in the barn just laughed and said to the horse, “Boy, she’s got your number, hasn’t she?”
Both of my horses are very loving and sweet horses and always want to be all over you. But there is a fine line between friendly and in my personal space. But from the moment I owned both of them they both got the same treatment. When they are being walked they must stay away from me and not in front of me. If they try to rush past me they get stopped and backed up. My horse used to try to run out of the gate of the ring. Every time he did this I would turn him back around and go back in the gate and walk him in and out until he could walk calmly out. He eventually learned that if he walked calmly he got to leave.
Same thing with my first horse who used to push past you to get in his still, would try to rip your arm off by thrashing his head to get his halter off and would dive for his food if it was in his stall. I got him when I was 11 and started teaching him manners. He didn’t get to eat until he stood quietly with his back to his food and waited for me to take his halter off. He didn’t get to stay in his stall until he walked quietly in. It’s to the point now that I’ve had him for oh dear 10 years now that all I have to do is say “manners!” and look at him and he quits doing whatever he wasn’t supposed to do.
I am constantly complimented on my horse’s manners but I think they don’t have exceptionally good manners they just have the required ones. These are big animals who can easily hurt you without meaning to. There’s no reason to let them literally walk all over you.
*Sigh* I was ready to type a long winded response, but I don’t have the energy. I just wish people would stop the NH bashing. There are good and bad trainers in both NH and Traditional. IMO, they are the same thing; just different terms and promoters. Just because I found, after three years of trying various techniques, that the only thing that works on what used to be my highly spooky horse is Clinton Anderson’s method, then so be it. If a handi stick and a string has taught her to be relaxed; moving her feet has taught her to listen and focus on me; and I have learned to use my body language better, then screw what everybody else thinks. If people are laughing at me because I work on despooking her once a week using Clinton’s method, and my arsenal includes umbrellas, giant balls, blow up beach toys, ballons, bags, strollers, the grandson’s Jack-In-The Box, giant stuffed animals, and everything and anything I can get my hands on, then screw them. Guess what? When I am asked to de-despook the arena so others can ride their horses without them spooking, I laugh at them! When I’m on a trail ride and we come upon a plastic bag that my horse completely ignores, while the other horse is spastic, I laugh at that person that laughed at me. My horse will now ride past things in a calm and relaxed manner that a year ago would have freaked her out, and other horses still freak over. It’s all about respect, boundries, and trust people, and just because you think one way is crazy or stupid, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. As long as it’s done without injury to both human and equine, who gives a shit.
Get over yourselves!
I meant to type, “As long as it’s done without injury to both human and equine, AND IT WORKS…..”
I got a very disrespectful 6 yr old 17.2H belgian gelding and he weighs a measly 2100#, I am a stout 5’5″ woman. I got him because his previous owner was afraid of him and he was pushy and very disrespectful – dangerous to say the least. It took 2 weeks of walking with a dressage whip as suggested on fugly’s blog and using a rope halter for the added correction (NH tool) to get him to listen and respect my space – now I have a gentleman or big baby who watches out for me and my barefoot or flip flop running chores and walking around the barn (I know bad habit). He leads, loads, ties and rides now – at least he has a future.
The rancher I worked under always said if a horse is bad or disrespectful make it the worst 15 seconds of their lives then just go right back to what you were doing/asking like nothing happened (no anger) – its always worked for me.
I don’t think Fugly “bashes” NH to just bash it. Why does everything have to be absolutely black or white for some people? There are SO MANY shades of gray out there when it comes to this. I’m a games person, but many here dislike what goes on in the speed event world (there is some parts I don’t like either), but for me to jump in and take terrible offense and read way too far into what folks are saying is really not looking at it with an open mind. EVERY SINGLE DISIPLINE has it’s pros and cons, it’s good people and it’s bad. Just because your experience has been good in one discipline (and c’mon, I’m SURE there is something you don’t like about even your own discipline) doesn’t mean it’s all good and if someone else has had bad experiences, then it’s not ALL bad. I never understood this close-mindedness….this one-track way of thinking. You don’t like it, fine, but I bet there is at least one thing you can say is good about it, even if it’s tiny. And if you adore it, great, but don’t get it set in your head that everyone should love it too and accept the fact that others have their own opinion about it. I think Fugs is seeing NH in a gray shade, not totally black as many have assumed. I think it’s because there IS so much crap that has come out of it that it’s turned into a money-grubbing, cult-like business that doesn’t focus on what benifits the horse in a positive way. I’ve seen (and used ) great tips and ways that work, but I don’t subscribe to any one clinitician (sp?) and don’t agree with the cult following of one. NOT ALL NH TRAINERS AND THEIR WAYS ARE TERRIBLE, NOR ARE ALL NH TRAINERS AND THEIR WAYS DECENDED FROM THE GODS (although MANY, MANY folks seem to act and think that they are!) and I don’t think she’s saying they are. Anyway, thats my opinion on that…
It just boggles my mind when I disipline one of my well-behaved horses at a show and get reprimanded for it. Yep, they are good horses, but face it, horses have brain-farts too and sometimes misbehave at the most inopportune times, just like kids. Mine definately aren’t perfect horses, but many people have complimented me and I’ve had many offers to buy them. That says to me they are damn good horses. For example, my nice BS Paint mare was being led to the ring from the trailer (in her showmanship halter) for my daughter who was waiting at the ring. We passed a horse going the other way (a stallion) and he rumbled a “Hey baby,” at her and she went, “Oh a MAN!” and squealed and flipped her tail flirtatiously and danced sideways into me, forgetting everything but how hot he was! He kept walking with only an ear flick to show he noticed her (he obviously was well-trained…hooray for his humans!) but she decided that she wanted to swing around and follow him (lordy I didn’t even know she was in heat as she never shows it and has never been bred) and I did a quick halt with a firm NO, and pulled her head back to me, first tried making her focus on me by standing still, but that didn’t work (more swinging her butt to almost knock me down and vocalizing to him) so I made her rapidly back, flipping my free hand infront of her face, jiggling the lead rope back and forth and lashed her with my voice, telling her BACK BACK BACK, we aren’t flirting today BACK! Focus on me BACK! Her head came up, her eyes bugged and she forgot Mr. Right and backed rapidly, finally focusing on me, the Lead Mare, and when she “gave” I stopped putting pressure on her. We stood silent in relaxed manner for a few seconds, then I asked,” Are you ready?” and she sighed, licked her lips and quietly followed me. A woman standing nearby had gasped at my first outburst and informed me that I was “cruel” to act that way to punish my horse. I stopped and looked at her like she was crazy. She went on about how I should have petted my horse and reasoned with her to calm her, NOT yell at her, and to just let her get over what she was upset about on her own instead of being “so mean”. “You should carry treats to distract her,” was her final word, “And NOT hit her about the head with the rope, you will hurt her!” I was astounded! Treats to distract? HIT her? I NEVER touched her with the lead, just jiggled it (ok, it jerked back and forth because we were rapidly going in reverse, but still…), and flapped my hand in her face. I told the woman this and then asked, “Who’s going to get hurt in this situation? 125 lbs. verses 1000 lbs…..hmmm….definately NOT the one who weighs 1000 lbs.! Think about it. And if you’re meaning her feelings getting hurt, too damn bad, she had no business flirting. And I’ll be damnned if she will get REWARDED with treats for pulling that stunt!” She walked off in a huff, obviously upset I had been “so mean”. Later I found out she was a NH cult follower…one of those who HAD to buy the $100 carrot stick, the $6000 NH clinitician (sp?) name-brand roundpen, the $150 name-brand rope halter, etc. otherwise the training “just wouldn’t work” and who had gone through 8-10 horses in the last 5 years looking for “the right life-time partnership”. When one turned nasty, she sold it and bought another that went into her cult following regiment. As far as I know, she still hasn’t found “the right one” yet and this happened at a local show about 2 or 3 years ago!
Your post is very timely, I just had a ‘Teenager’ incident with my 2 year old. It’s funny, when you ride a 24 year old horse, you forget all the drama of a youngster. I wrote up the incident in my blog http://ihaz2manyhorsez.blogspot.com/2010/08/teenagers-and-seizing-moment.html
My boundary-breaking horse was almost slaughter bound. He’s now a reformed show horse – Ok with a mischievous streak. I can’t leave him unsupervised – like having a 5 year old. He’s rebellious and intelligent, so I can see why things went south with his previous owners. They shipped him out to a lot of “cowboy” and “NH” trainers (I say in quotes – as no offense intended to real cowpersons).
I burned all my vaca time from work the first month; starting with him in the pasture and on the ground (he wasn’t fit enough to ride). I got some bruises but we established boundaries. There were some “moments” where I threatened to buy him a 1-way ticket to France – but I was never serious.
Crashing into an oak head first comes to mind…
Now he’s fit and shiny and has more ribbons than I have walls to hang them. I know he’s happy now, even if he is beta to my alpha. We still have our moments though. When stressed – that is when reformed characters like him are most likely to go back to “old habits”. Originally I thought I’d resell him when he was reformed. But my husband says “you’ll never get rid of him”. He knows me!
Hay everyone:
I am a longtime teacher and student of classical riding and horsemanship. One of my favorite sayings from my mentor Erik Herbermann (author of the book Dressage Formula) is that classical riding is not about being cutesy utesy. Long before the Dog Whisperer said “Discipline before affection.” Erik was saying “Respect before love.” How often have you heard the tale of a novice owner trying a horse and the horse is a perfect bombproof angel, and within 30 days it is attacking the family. The previous owner gets blamed, must have been drugged etc. Now I am DEFINITELY NOT saying that people do not drug horses to sell them, but like Fugly said, the novice (or ignorant) handler missing small instances of dominant behavior create the monster. The horse then gets blamed. I always explain to my students new to horses that the horse does not have any choice but to take the leadership role if we do not, they are genetically programmed to do that.
A final note:
I often see handlers “check” a fractious horse by yanking down on the lead, causing the horse to rear or barrel through. It is much more effective to check the horse with an upward motion on the lead, which has the effect of getting the horses attention rather than becoming a wrestling match.
What a good point. I see people shank, shank, shank til they flip them over. It does not teach a thing. I don’t snap on leads, period. I growl and back them up. They can proceed forward when they can do so in a respectful fashion.
It’s simply amazing how fast you can change a horse’s entire attitude with a few quickly applied corrections.
I got a horse for free from a woman who was afraid of the mare. She couldn’t take her on a trail ride. The horse would balk at the beginning of the trail, refuse to go into the woods, and the end result was that she would eventually get put back in the stable.
I was a teenager, and the first time we attempted to go on a trail walk, the horse stopped dead at the sight of the wooded trail. I growled like holy hell and gave her one (just one!) quick, loud smack on the butt with a bat. She was surprised, I’m sure, but went forward without further complaint.
She never balked with me again…. ever. She never exhibited any of the other ‘naughty’ behaviours the previous owner couldn’t seem to control. She turned out to be a very experienced, highly trained horse who knew A LOT of stuff. She was just smart and she knew she was the boss and her previous owner was second in line.
Horses are hardwired to acknowledge a pecking order. If you establish yourself as the leader from the get go, it’s surprising how quickly and easily they will respect you. As evidenced by plenty of frustrated novice riders, whose ‘naughty’ horse suddenly goes perfectly the second the trainer hops on, without a fight or any resistance.
Wow, this brings up so many thoughts. I’m going to start by saying that it’s not NH per se that causes the problems, but the way people misapply it. None of the BNTs in NH that I know of have horses that either walk over them or cower in corners, so presumably they are doing something right.
When I was looking for a first horse for my daughter, we looked at a friend’s gelding (who was clearly a poor match). This horse was well trained but hadn’t been worked for a while. He got a little upset in the round pen, kicked out at my friend, and she grabbed a chain that was handy and whacked him one. My daughter and I were floored, although I don’t think she really hurt him.
Fast forward two years to my first horse. I’m doing Parelli and not making much progress. Among other things, every time I run around to chain or unchain the gate, my horse comes up behind me and bites. I get tired of the bruises and finally take the chain (it’s fairly small and light), whack him, and use a combination of whacks and threats to back him out of my space. It takes a few sessions, but “stay out of my space when I’m at the gate” is the first thing I’m successful at teaching him. Sounds like overkill, but in fact he was neither hurt nor scared.
And finally – I was feeding my relatively new and very green OTTB not long ago when my fool dog came over and started harassing him. I don’t know whether it was the dog, the wind, or just the mood he was in, but he started doing these spectacular airborne bucks with kick-outs right about my eye level. Fortunately these were a few feet away from me. I took the feed bucket that I had in my hand, and we had a “come to Jesus” meeting about being fed that involved my throwing the feed bucket at him a few times. Hasn’t been a problem since. (Nor is he scared of the feed bucket.)
I have OFTEN used the feed bucket as a reminder to horses that my personal space is my personal space in the field. And nope, I’ve NEVER had one get scared of buckets, either!
The arab cross I purchased, and owned for a short while, had no boundaries when I purchased him. He was nasty undersaddle at anything faster than a walk. Would not stand for a farrier or to be groomed. He was pushy, prancy, and just plain prissy. I purchased a stronger halter, a lunge whip, a longe line, and a lead line with a shank upon purchasing the horse.
When grooming, because I had no where to tie him, my friend held him. Every time he pranced or pushed he got a whack from the flat of my hand. If he nipped I nipped back, so did my friend who held him. If he struck out we would strike back with whatever appendage was not weighed down with something, this was usually a punch from the hand not holding a lead/brush or a kick from an off-foot. If there was loose lead sometimes he would get a pop from the end of the lead line. We never struck hard enough to injure, and I never used a whipped for anything but to gain his attention and direct him while longeing. I was trained that a whip should never strike a horse hard enough to hear the pop of contact or leave a welt. It is a training aid, not a disciplinary object.
When he stood without prancing, without nipping he would be rewarded. Rewards were always pats and loves, never cookies.
When standing for the farrier this horse was very good for biting, kicking, striking, and dancing. This was where the shank came into effect. A dance that would knock the farrier off-balance or nearly squash a foot garnered a pull on the shank. A bite garnered a bite, and a strike would garner a strike, be it a heavy punch or a kick. When he picked up his feet without dancing, he would be rewarded. When he would stand without dancing he would be rewarded
Longeing him was work, as he liked to pull hard, so he was put into tighter circles. When he would stop pulling and applying pressure he would be let out a little. When he would give I would give.
Under saddle he would buck, crow-hop, rear, do whatever to get out of work because his prior owner would dismount and untack him when he would do that. My friend and I fashioned a tie down while we were researching martingales to prevent him from rearing. We fashioned it so that when he pulled up to rear he pulled on himself. When he would crow-hop I sat it out and would put him through circles. I would do the same when he would buck. When he would do one whole circuit of the paddock without any struggle he would be loved on and we would continue working.
I never worked him more than maybe 45 minutes at first. His brain would short circuit about then. But after a year or so of this I was able to ride him bareback without a tie down, with a lead line attached to a halter and he wouldn’t pull any tricks. With this arab cross it was all about patience and out-clevering him. I had to wean him from cookies as rewards. He wanted a cookie for everything, that is how he trained his former owner. She would bribe him with cookies. That is as bad as bribing a child with a toy for good behaviour.
Every correction was made as the misbehaviour was being committed, and every reward was made as the good behaviour was being committed. If I didn’t correct or praise in time I would wait til it happened again. I did not want to confuse him. I really learned to be conscious of the moment with that horse.
The issue with natural horsemanship is that it’s not natural at all. It’s pathetic.
Being natural does not mean it’s all nice and sweet and you allow your horse to get away with everything in the hope that rewarding good behaviour will fix things. It won’t. In the wild, horses are put into their place, not asked if they would like to be there. There are fights and kicking and biting. Horses are not nice creatures when they’re learning their place. They are based around violence. That is natural. True NH involved reprimanding your horse if he requires it, so that he learns that bad things happen when he does the bad behaviour. Rewarding him for good behaviour allows him to realise that he wants to do this behaviour because good things happen. It’s all about him learning his place and accepting you as alpha, not him.
The only thing I can say about Parelli is I love their gear. Really niceequipment they sell. Some of it, anyway.
They can definitely be like kids in that respect. Just the other day I was watching Pirates of The Caribbean in the theater and there was a little boy next to me, probably 5 or 6 and he would NOT sit still. He was kicking the rail in front of us, squirming all around in his seat, practically sitting on the floor, or folding the seat up and then sitting on it, he even jumping the rail and ran around the theater a few times and he he would NOT stop talking! I waited patiently for his father to say something to him and got nothing, or he’d give a half-heart ‘no no’ but no real discipline. The kid started yapping again and I said ‘shh!’ in a stern whisper. Silent for the rest of the movie. He started kicking at the guard rail again, I said ‘stop it!’ in another stern whisper. Still for the rest of the movie. Sir, a strange 17 year old girl disciplined your son with three whispered syllables. I think that says something about your parenting.
And you certainly don’t have to beat a horse to discipline it! One of the mares I ride has a tendency to want to go a gait faster than the gait you’re wanting to go. When she does this I bring her back to a halt and back her butt up. She’s then good and goes the gait I’m asking her to go for the rest of the ride. How easy was that?
The gelding I ride tries to walk all over me, pulling me all over the place while I’m trying to get his side reins on to longe him (they are removed before I ride, they aren’t super tight) or basically just try to do anything with him on the ground when he’s not in the cross-ties. When he does this I back his butt up all over the small arena (there’s a little square arena at the end of the main indoor arena that I longe him in before my lessons). Then he stands quietly. I’m not rough with him when I’m backing him up, but it gets the message across that I’m the one who will be deciding where and when he’s going to go, not him.
He also likes to ‘spook’ at things. You know, that scary rope that has never moved and has been there since his first day at the stable? Ya. He doesn’t like to work hard, so when he ‘spooks’ (if it’s at a sudden loud noise, or something happened suddenly while we were passing the arena doors, which obviously is something a horse could easily spook at, I’ll understand) and goes cantering off, I say, ‘ok, you want to go fast?’ and keep him cantering around the arena. Or he’ll turn sideways off the rail and try to stop (I have no idea why he’s doing this, if you know, then I would appreciate some help) I side-pass him down the wall. He hates work so if he’s misbehaving we turn his misbehavior into work for him. So far, it’s actually working pretty well.