Waah! Waah! I’m calling my lawyers!
Aug 26 2010
Anky Von Grunsven is a whiny little bitch.
Here’s an idea – why don’t you learn to ride without a death grip on the horse’s mouth, and then people will respect your skills and not talk shit about you on the Internet?  I mean, it’s just an idea. It’s not like anyone photoshopped all those pictures of you cranking on horses in double bridles. The truth is a defense to defamation. That’s why Lindsey Lohan can’t sue everybody who says she’s on drugs on the Internet. Lindsey realizes she would be made to look really foolish if she did that. Sadly, Anky, you apparently don’t have that level of self-knowledge.
All about rollkur, for those of you unfamiliar with it.
Now, sue me too. You whiner.
270 comments to “Waah! Waah! I’m calling my lawyers!”
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According to Anky images of her horses can not be connected to the controversial rollkur training method. This is a system developed by Anky and her trainer and life partner Sjef Janssen in which the horse is bending its neck in an extreme way
So….she developed the method, but she cannot be connected to it??
What about this sentence is not right?
God, I hate Anky. I think someone here once said she was the AntiChrist of dressage. Such an accurate term. She’s evil, and I cheer everytime an horse bucks her off or runs away with her. Good for this journalist for calling her and the coach of The Netherlands out on their “training methods,” and kudos to all of the dressage riders and trainers out there who believe in classical methods of training that take time, not tricks. Hopefully their hard work and effort will be recognized by the judges at WEG. Oh, and I’m thrilled that Anky will not be performing at WEG. GO U.S.!
I did so appreciate the video of her falling on her ass.
Ha! That was me who called her that! =D What she rides is NOT dressage.
Judging by the things they wrote to the reporter, it looks like they are bullies to people just as much as they are to their own horses.
It just doesn’t make any sense to me how riding a horse like that would even be enjoyable. I can’t put into words how much I LOVE dressage, but the reason I love it is because when you get the horse correctly through his back and he gets light and springy and forward with the lightest of aides it feels like FLYING (plus, you can’t put a pricetag on seeing your horse’s ears flop out to the sides of his head as he’s trotting when they get really springy and have no tension in their topline – TOO CUTE!!). I have a chronic shoulder problem (not medically, just in terms of my riding I’ve always had a tendency to brace them) and I have worked my ASS off to keep them soft. On the rare occasion that I revert back to my stiff shoulders, dressage is not fun that day (it’s not even dressage that day). Why on earth would people ruin something so amazing and actually CHOOSE to ride like that, with their horse’s stiff jaws and tense backs and hocks flailing out behind them? And then why would the show judges reward them with good scores?? And then beginner riders who don’t know any better try to copy her and then it spreads like wildfire and then [brain explodes and springs pop out everywhere]AAAAGGGGHH!!!
“And then why would the show judges reward them with good scores??”
And THAT is the problem. If those people didn’t win, they wouldn’t ride that way.
Not only do they reward riders for poor training, they reward them when they have major screwups. Isabell Wirth and her horse that threatened to rear and did back up during two piaffe-passage tours at the last Olympics, Anky (at any major competition) with a horse that does not establish or maintain a halt, that spun out of canter pirouettes, that missed several changes and STILL managed to score miles ahead of the next riders, including ones that had no major screwups but who weren’t “famous.”
I remember another thread where the elites were discussing the fact that the “uninformed” (unwashed masses, in other words) would comment on the resistances but the judges were, instead, rewarding Anky et al for their technical skill (we were being dissed for not SEEING the “invisible half halts” and “seamless transitions”).
In MY (uninformed, “unwashed”) mind, if the half halts are invisible, we aren’t SUPPOSED to see them, and if the transitions are seamless, we aren’t supposed to see them, either.
Stuff and nonsense and being “the rider of the hour.” I have a feeling THIS year at WEG, the US team is going to do some REAL butt-kicking. I fear, however, that if the judges don’t get THEIR you-know-what together, it will do dressage irreparable harm in the eyes of the masses (unwashed or squeaky clean) who can SEE when a horse is misbehaving and should be penalized appropriately. Perhaps Anky and Isabell were given 3s or 2s on the movements I mentioned above, but giving them 10s everywhere else to “make up for it” so they win gold medals isn’t right, either.
I love classical dressage for all the same reasons. And because you truly can apply the principals to any discipline and any situation to improve your riding or the performance of your horse. Even if you’re a trail rider with a horse who tends to shy, if you teach it to leg yeild and be soft to the riders aids, it’s easier to prevent or minimize the spooking. True, classical dressage can be applied to anything.
As for why people would ride using shortcuts, it’s simple….we humans, generally speaking (I know this does not apply to everyone), are lazy and have no integrity. We humans will alwasy take the easy way, the cheating way, the fastest way to a paycheck. Anky probably has no real talent for training (mind you, her family has been in the horse biz for a long time), but looks pretty in the saddle (long, slender, etc). So they invent new “training” techniques and force the horses into submission until they are something she can take to show. And she’s not the only one doing it. She didn’t invent rollkur, even though she is definitely guilty of it. It was used first in Germany years ago, and if you watch the top horses of other countries, you see evidence of shortcuts there, too. And rollkur is not the only thing happening. There are dressage barns who are picking up practices used by the saddle seat industry, such as hobbles and chains around their ankles (it was rumored that this was used on Tortilas, but I do not know if there is real basis for those rumors). The dressage world is a mess right now, and because of politics, the powers that be in the FEI are afraid to take a real stand for or against any of these things. The good news is, there is a large public outcry against these practices, and we can only hope that the FEI will eventually cave to the pressure of the public and stand up against cruel training. All we can do, as any horse lover in any industry, is continue to stand up for our horses, and stand up to whiny people like Anky.
I can’t believe that, once upon a time, I actually paid “name” trainers to teach me how to ride like that. So many of us happily lined up with our checkbooks to ride with certain clinicians. Many years later, I still have issues with the muscles in my back and shoulders from years of riding with the DeathGrip. Hours upon hours of forcing my horse into position with hands that were unforgiving and cramping from the sheer exertion, and aching legs to match the sheer force I was being ORDERED to use on my horses in order to keep them “forward.” What a Crock-o-Shit. Thank God I pulled my head out of my ass before I was completely brainwashed.
Wow … fun at home with Sjef and Anky. What a soothing, classy couple that all of us would love to ride with. Not.
My trainer is a huge fan and student of Thomas Ritter and classical dressage in general (as opposed to competition dressage). So we enjoy a lot of arena talks about the Water Principle, the Aikido Principle, the Root Principle … lots of “harmony” (from artisticdressage.com). I am not sensing the harmony in Anky and Sjef’s approach to dressage, especially not the “I-will-squish-you-like-a-bug-you-bad-little-reporter” approach to news they don’t like.
Don’t like hearing the truth about your training methods? Maybe you should change them.
I am against this awfull practice, but I also do not support trainers who have been convicted of crimes against people too and the horse world needs to hear about these issues also and not keep them swept under the rug.
“Today, January 22nd, 2010 East District Court of the State of Washington for Klickitat County Judge Brian Altman sentenced Thomas Ritter to 2 years bench probation, 365 days in Klickitat County Jail with 335 days suspended, restitution to victim, Sarah Liggett, plus $5,000 fine with $4,000 suspended and two additional fines of $5,000 with $5,000 suspended on each count.
“The charges were; Assault in the Fourth Degree with Sexual Motivation
Two counts of Harassment.
Thomas Ritter is currently serving 30 days in the Klickitat County Jail.
“State of Washington- Plaintiff
vs.
Thomas Ritter- Defendant”
No.2009-0016
Wait … what? I hadn’t heard that little gem (did some digging after your posting, and it is really hard to find non-gossipy details from where I am — there seem to be two very militant camps shaping up and I’m not in full agreement with either). I know absolutely nothing about the situation, or about Dr. Thomas Ritter’s personal life, other than he’s done good things for our riding at home and I have not heard complaints about his handling of horses. As a former journalist, I support not sweeping things under the rug, but I also got to see bad people go free and good people trashed by the system. So please take this not as a defense of “crimes against people” but as my usual skepticism. I tend to be cautious with legal situations where my opinion would not be supported by further details (as in this case).
I reserve judgment but will certainly keep your news in mind. That said, IMHO (again, not supported by further details), legal definitions of assault in the 4th with an overwhelmingly suspended sentence and fines are definitely not high up there on the levels of ick. Reading the legal descriptions, I could be guilty of this offence myself, against a guy at a bar a few years back. OT, but thank you, nameless guy, wherever you are, for not filing charges against me and in general being very gracious (I was the slightly inebriated woman, teal shirt and a mojito, and have evolved since then)
You totally could have, even though guys seem to get the short end in court on the victim side.
I agree, but like all personal matters, it can be very difficult to determine if someone brought false allegations against a trainer either. As my understanding, there was a distinct “he said, she said” in this case, and rather than defend it and rack up court costs, Ritter pled guilty to just get done with it.
I don’t know if that’s true, but that is what is being said.
Then again, if he is forcing himself on his working students, it would be a damn shame. Working students have it hard enough without having to worry about that kind of crap too.
Just saying there’s two sides to every story.
Well and succinctly put.
I always hated “he said, she said” cases because it is too easy to be completely wrong when you pick the side you believe. I hate being wrong.
I would NEVER plead guilty if I was not! Period! Especially in a case like this. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I was accused by a derranged person of ergregious acts against them and their family members, falsely I might add, and I hired a lawyer, showed up to court, stressed and sat through all of the psycho babble, and was elated when the judge dismissed the case. We never had to say a word because there was no evidence to support their outrageous claims. This happened not once, but twice by the same kookaburra and both times I had to miss work and pay a lawyer but let me tell you, it was worth it. If I hadn’t done that, the judge would have ruled in their favor by default and I would look like the guilty person that I am certainly not.
Nonsense. No one pleads guilty to a sexual offense just to “have done with it.” He will be registered as a sex offender for the rest of his life. Where he is able to live is now restricted and he must report to the court forever.
That someone is a great horseman does not make him less likely to be a child molester. According to surveys of adult women, approximately one quarter of all girls in the US is molested by an adult relative or authority figure by the age of 18, with “molested” defined as genital contact. Someone has to be doing the molesting, and since sex offenders tend to seek jobs which put them in contact with underage people, it shouldn’t surprise anyone when it turns out to be a coach, preacher, or teacher who is known as a “pillar of the community.”
“Although assault 4 with sexual motivation sounds like a sex offense it is not; at least, as the law is currently written. That means an offender does not have to register as a sex offender.” by a lawyer at http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/what-is-the-consequences-for-juvenile-4th-degree-a-48915.html
My understanding is that the charge is a gross misdemeanor. My understanding, based on what I could dig up, is also that there are no children involved — the victim in question was over 18 at the time and personal circumstances were quite complicated, not that that changes anything. I say this only because there needs to be a lot more research on any specific case before a label like child molester is ever brought up.
A wealthy white dude harassed and assaulted a female he had power over? I am shocked. This is my shocked face.
I imagine Appels might be scared shitless by all that craziness there, or at least discouraged from continuing her important writings, showing that big name riders and trainers can be just as abusive as those hoarding rednecks on the county line. (but you know, showing that in a more professional way ;P ) Is there any way we can contact Astrid Appels to show our support for what she’s doing? Like, can we comment on the article somewhere or drop her a line on Eurodressage.com or something?
I second this. I hope there is a way to show support for her speaking out.
Anky has made me embarrassed at times to admit that I am teaching my big mutt mare dressage. She’d probably literally kill a rider like Anky, having been abused as a youngster and being THE dominant critter. We do dressage for the partnership, the relaxation into work, because that has been the key to a happy, safe, sane Cayenne.
I’ve seen the welt marks, the cuts caused by spurs, and the occasional bleeding mouths. Hopefully Anky goes down.
Off topic, but has anyone else seen this??? Excuse my language, but this lady is a bitch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FObxOfwAvF0&feature=player_embedded&has_verified=1
At least the people of London are sensible. This lady’s got guards outside her house because of all the death threats she has recieved since her identity was revealed!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEX6ol0r37s&NR=1&feature=fvwp
The worst part is the cat ran up to her and started asking for attention. I mean, I can all but hear her purring away. What kind of person thinks, hey, throwing the friendly cat in the trash is a good idea? It was in there for 15 hours. Poor thing was probably hungry and dehydrated! I’d throw the LADY in the trash if I could, though even then she has done something to deserve it – unlike this cat.
Yeah, that lady is totally a stupid bitch. I think she needs to be dumped into a huge dumpster with no way out for 15 hours & see how she likes it.
Cruelty to animals (to me) is a crime akin to rape. It’s about power and domination and humiliation.
Cruelty to cats in particular really bothers me, as my cats have taken the place of equines in my heart (because I am in no position to care for a horse now). I sure would love to pick that bitch up and toss her ass in the trash. Except hope that the trash is picked up quickly and sent to the landfill… poor sweet cat!
Holy mother of god! :0 You could tell she was thinking about it the whole time she was petting the cat… wow. I hope to god this woman doesn’t have children. Can you IMAGINE being her child?
While I agree that the woman needs to be shut in a dumpster herself without food and water for a day…or a week, I don’t think the owners get a free pass on this one.
Does that not look like a VERY busy street in the background?
If you don’t want harm to come to your cat, in the form of a car, or a dog, or the crazy bitch next door, KEEP YOUR CAT INSIDE AND SAFE!!!
Nobody in England keeps cats indoors unless they’re valuable show cats or the like. It’s actually considered inappropriate and even cruel in many circles. Americans are pretty much the only people who believe all cats should be in all the time…except barn cats…and I think it comes from the presence of coyotes and other predators.
God bless /b/. They’re the best and the worst of the internet.
Take that Anky! Your abusive training methods may win you gold medals (even when your horse doesn’t halt at X)
but people are on to you finally.
I feel sorry for her horses…
There’s a good reason she’s called Skanky Anke. What a total bitch.
HaHAHA!! I love it! Although, I thought it was “Crank and SpAnky” myself; an appellation that I also read on this blog. Either way, it’s well deserved.
I thought I heard something awhile back where her horse spooked at some huge competition and ran away with her and the only thing she could do about it was clutch the pommel of her saddle and scream until the outriders caught the horse. Was that Anky, or am I thinking of someone else?
That was Anky.
Haha, way to call her out. and by the way- sue another horseperson? ROFL- for what? Their vet bill? Not many of us are sitting on much in the way of assets! She needs to put down her reins and learn what defamation, slander and libel are. The internet allows people to share what they know or believe with a larger audience, which means (oh no) ACCOUNTABILITY for asshats. But telling the truth based on your knowledge and experience is not slander/libel.
And it’s not defamation, its a REPUTATION and you earned it.
As someone who putters around in the lower dressage levels, I have always cringed at the more “pained” way of riding so many of the upper level competition riders are going to. Remember the video footage of the horse with the blue tongue hanging out? While others “ohhh and ahhhh” at an advanced horse’s extreme movements in the upper levels, I always watch the horse’s facical expressions. To me, that is where you can tell the real success of your dressage training. My idea of dressage is to build a lighter, more responsive, happy horse, who is a willing partner. When I watch riders like Anky ride, their horses are not happy looking – which to me, defeats the whole purpose of dressage. It looks more like “look what I CAN make my horse do” rather than “look what my horse WANTS to do” – a huge difference. On the other hand, I remember a video that made the rounds of a lovely horse who looked like she could do the course on her own without a rider, and wanted to, which makes for such a more beautiful overall picture. Whine all you want Anky, but photos don’t lie.
I’m the same, which is why I’ve always loved seeing Brentina and Debbie McDonald do well. Brentina always seemed happy in the ring. Check out the bottom picture at this link – perfect example of what I’m talking about!
http://www.gamereadyequine.com/forYou/Dressage.htm
George Williams and Rocher M for me. Pics don’t lie, but neither do floppy ears. =D
Well put! I think you can see the success of training in most any discipline in the horse’s expression. There are times of focus so I’m not saying every horse has a grin slapped on his face while working, but when horse that looks tight, bound, cranked on in any discipline where a good rider’s cutes should be undetectable just doesn’t add up.
Exactly! Like watching the two year old futurities in western pleasure. Lots of beautiful babies going around the ring perfectly with dead eyes.
UGH! Anky and Sjef are bad, bad people, plain and simple. The way they treat their horses, and treat others, is appalling.
How could photos of Anky NOT be connected to rollkur, which she herself developed?!? (with help from Sjef of course). There are loads of tapes, videos, etc of her ‘teaching’ and saying how rollkur doesn’t hurt the horse. Is she changing her stance now and trying to distance herself from her OWN training system?
Anky has been the worst thing to happen to dressage EVER. Lots of people see through her abusive training methods and cringe at how her horses move, but there are scores of others, especially teenage girls, who see nothing but The Pretty Horse Is Dancing and Lots of Gold Medals. Loads of people come to the rather logical conclusion that “she wins, so it (rollkur) must be okay. I’ll try it too!”
Thanks, Anky, for ruining dressage worldwide.
I am shocked that the case is even going to court?! How is this being taken seriously? Astrid Appels has been reporting on dressage news since she was basically just a kid and the internet was just being born. She knows a thing or two about journalism, and dressage. I hope Anky gets laughed out of court.
This is rather funny as last night I was in my office and RFD was on the tube in the living room. I sort of had an ear out for anything of interest and a show call Equestrian something or other came on, there was the usual stuff, Pouissant, eventing whatever. So I watched for a moment and they showed tape of Lucinda Green from UK who is supposedly the world’s best eventer doing a water obstacle, and after watching, I could not believe what a TERRIBLE rider she is. She rode like a sack of potatoes, she basically fell off in the water, and her good horse got them out of the water while she was clinging to the side of the horse and trying to get back up in the saddle, she was like a squirrel clinging to a tree. So, I looked her up on Google, and she has developed an eventing video game, which of course explains why she is the a terrible rider, since she spends the day infront of the TV playing her video. I was really dissapointed in how a person can make it to the top and still suck at riding. I guess you see it all the time. Anky can kiss my ass too.
I haven’t seen Lucinda Green ride–I only know her by reputation (my first instructor was a fan of hers and loaned me a couple of her books). However, Lucinda Green has not “developed” any video games. The game company developed it, and had a deal with her to put her name on it. She may or may not have had input into the design, but it’s unlikely she was greatly involved. This isn’t unusual at all in the world of video games–it’s based on the idea that a sports game that is connected with a famous figure from said sport will sell better. (Random example from a non-horsey game: Tiger Woods PGA Tour for the XBox!) Nor is Lucinda Green the only rider who has done this–British eventers Mary King and Pippa Funnell have had similar deals. If anything, it speaks to the sport’s greater profile in the UK! All in all, I have no idea how good a rider is, but she’s certainly very accomplished, and to say she’s a bad rider because she was playing video games is unfair. She’s probably never played the game. That said, even if she had, she’s got time. She retired from international competition 19 years before the game was released.
You mean the Lucinda Green who won Badminton 6 times on six different horses? The double World Gold Eventing Champion, quadruple European Gold winner, and silver Olympic medallist? That Lucinda Green? Yes, I’m sure she’s a really terrible rider, I mean all you have to do to win a 4* event is pansy around a dressage test, flump like a sack of potatoes around a teensy cross country course and pop over a few cross poles.
/sarcasm.
So you watched 5 seconds of something you can’t even name on RFD and think you’ve seen the entirety of the woman’s career? You don’t win Badminton a record 6 times on 6 different horses without being able to ride better than ” a sack of potatoes” as you call it.
The program was Equestrian Nation with Larry Mahan and it showed a series of “OMG” moments in cross country. Every rider shown was obviously having problems at different fences. None of them was having “a stellar moment.”
Lucinda Greene is amazing….i have been to her clinics such a soft compassionate rider, who actually understands hhorse training she gets the horses jumping calmly and happily! u watched her ride a comnination badly and judged her on that?? I wish all event riders were like her…do some more research on the subject next time please
I’m sure Anky is not the only one who has “whined” about her professional reputation being destroyed. I find it interesting that there aren’t any Gran Prix riders that are criticizing Anky’s method.
Anky has never had a blue tongue picture or video that I’ve seen, but feel free to show me one.
Rollkur is aggressive use of hyperflexion, forcing the horse into a certain posture. LDR is hyperflexion, except the horse isn’t forced into it.
Interesting, it seems as though the Spanish Riding School rides LDR too. Hey, these are “just pictures” too.
http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/horse_10_27/h05_16723391.jpg
The mob-like attitude of this forum is school girlish. There are points in every horse’s training and intense work they are unhappy. My horse looks pretty pissed off when she’s eating, geez, I guess she hates to eat grain.
I dare say that no one in this forum is competing Gran Prix. So seriously, what critique do you actually have to offer? There are horses being beaten, starved, and sent to slaughter everyday. Isn’t that much more worthy of our attention?
For sure the horses that are being beaten starved and killed are worth our attention — as are, I might add, the thousands of chickens pigs and cows that live horrible lives in factory farms and then die horribly — but the criticism that i’ll briefly offer here is:
there are many “beautifully cared-for” horses at multimillion dollar facilities all over subjected to cruel training/management methods that are considered acceptable in the dressage world — rollkur, crank nosebands that it takes pliers to get undone, over use of bit, whip, spurs, no chance to EVER touch another horse nose to nose or be turned out with another horse ever (or no turnout at all.) Is that not very sad and worthy of our attention? If you have ever known any of these horses, you would know that many of them are not enjoying their silver-spoon lives one little bit. Hocks worn out by age 6 — but oh no, my horse gets the best of care! Baths everyday, turnout alone in manicured paddock so $$$ horsey won’t be hurt, all the best of saddle fitting and hoof care and everything else . . . but spurred and whipped and cranked and rollkur-d and hocks worn out by age 6 — injections forever for a long as the horse can be worked.
If you kept me alone in a box every night after a hard day’s work and didn’t allow me any normal social contact, and made my work uncomfortable, I would lose my mind and my soul and spirit would be broken. This is what some dressage training does.
Sparkly Reiner 87 said “I dare say that no one in this forum is competing Gran Prix. So seriously, what critique do you actually have to offer? ”
Your assumption that everyone on this forum is but of ‘local’ riding quality couldn’t be further from the truth. I have ridden Grand Prix and I’m sure I’m not the only one on this forum who has ridden FEI levels in many different disciplines. You offerred nothing constructive in your post so what do you offer?
Sadly Rollkur is a disgustingly hurried method of pushing a square peg into a round hole without refining the square into a round peg. I do not believe anyone has to ride the upper levels to understand this concept. Everyone from the weekend trail rider to USEF to CCI riders to USDF working cowhorse and reiners will know this concept. I doubt you will find many that will agree that the use and/or concept of Rollkur is not an atrocity. Just because you have not seen pictures (and you’d have to have no knowledge of Anky and never viewed her riding to miss those shots) only means your eyes were closed.
I don’t ride Grand Prix, but my trainer did for several years. A lot of very good riders left the sport in part because of judges rewarding the “yank and crank” trend in dressage and the debasement of basic dressage principles such as relaxation. The result is morons like Anky, who try to shortcut to. I’ve boarded at dressage queen barns, and been absolutely disgusted by how these horses are handled. No wonder they’re unsound, raving loons! No turnout, never ridden outside the ring, never allowed a natural head carriage…ugh. I wouldn’t touch your average modern warmblood with a 10 foot pole, and I learned to ride at a Trakhener barn. I’ve seen the breed go from lovely, solid sane horses to weedy, unsound overbred nutbars. And I work with OTTBs. And I’ve seen warmbloods who couldn’t hack this kind of life/training get dumped at slaughter due to behavior/soundness issues, so it IS relevant to this blog.
The horse in the Spanish school photo you posted is IMO, overbent and behind the bit. However, big difference here…NO yanking from the rider’s hands like you see in Anky’s photos/videos! I would not encourage head carriage like that in a horse, as to me it is an evasion of the bit and unnatural position to boot, but the horse isn’t being hauled into it either.
Whoops, missing sentence. “morons like Anky, who try to shortcut thru basic dressage training to show a horse at an inappropriate level before it has the foundation.”
Your a brave sole for such a highly emotional subject. I already know how this will turnout. I’ll be back later for the scraps.
“I dare say that no one in this forum is competing Gran Prix. So seriously, what critique do you actually have to offer? ”
Right, because anyone who doesn’t compete in Grand Prix can’t recognize cruelty when they see it. Or is it because you have to be capable of riding Grand Prix to know that it’s worth ruining your horse to achieve those lofty awards? The higher the awards the more abuse that goes into them, is that the logic?
Or is it because the rest of us just aren’t intelligent enough to read a veterinarian’s report about the damage a horse suffers from Rollkur?
sign me Knuckle-Dragging White-Trash-Dressage Rider
I don’t even have a horse, much less ride one and I’ll tell you what my newbie eyes have to offer: I can look at that and know it just isn’t right. Its in no way natural. If you ride in that way long enough your horse WILL get a blue tongue, and ain’t nothing natural about that. And now I read these horses bolt unpredictably -hmm? My newbie senses are tingling – wanna bet those horses are trying to escape their unnatural, tortured neck positions?
Totally. And most of us don’t participate in big lick TWH events, so we shouldn’t criticize there either, right?
Why don’t you go back and look at the Spanish Riding School photo. The horse has SLACK on his side reins while in what appears to be a relaxed walk. He’s holding his head there on his own for the split second he’s in the photo. “Riders” like Anky are holding the head in that position for 15 minutes straight with a death grip while aggressively driving the horse forward.
See the difference? If not, you’re in serious need of a clue or two.
With a name like Sparkly Reiner, I’m willing to bet you see absolutely NOTHING wrong with rollkur. My disclaimer– I don’t ride dressage, although I’ve used the basic concepts for years to help supple, relax, and balance horses in other disciplines. I also don’t ride reining horses, although I used to respect and like them.
Then I got to watch reining horses on RFD TV!!! A great big stock show in Scottdale, with million dollar horses in it (That’s what they’ve won, not necessarily what they are worth)! And…..
…. You have GOT to be frickin’ kidding me. Reining horses with their heads so low and overflexed that they literally can’t see where they are going. Back ups where the horse backs up rapidly in response to buried spurs, with their heads tucked to their chests on a draped rein. Riders who have to literally force their horse’s heads UP in order to get them to balance enough to do a sliding stop. Horses who end their patterns with their noses two inches from the ground, standing perfectly still as trained, but not even remotely relaxed. THIS is what is winning in your world? No wonder you think rollkur and hyperflexion is okay. I’m just sorry you need a blue tongue in order to recognize abuse.
Or will a cut in half tongue on a pleasure horse who was tied down between its legs and loped around count? Nah…. it probably just ate stringy hay…..
Charm, with all due respect, I ride reiners and although I can’t speak to what you saw, I do know how the horses I ride are trained. First of all, reining horses are trained to slide stop with a release of leg pressure and very little to no rein. Second of all, the horses I have seen performing sliding stops put their heads down and noses out to balence them throught the stop. As far as their low head carriage and over flexing, that is a movement started and there are a lot of BNTs that speak out against it. Kind of like blocking tails, etc. one judge saw it and liked it, placed the horse first. and now that is the trend. I totally agree with you on this. Of all my horses, some are naturally low headed and others aren’t. But as far as the horse standing perfectly still though not relaxed, he just ran a 2-3 mintue pattern most of it at a high speed and is breathing very hard when the pattern ends. It shows control for the horse to stand there squared up and wait for the rider to cue the next move. I don’t see anything wrong with that. All that said, I am against abusive, and unethical treantment to win. I have been faced with those choices in my horse’s training and have never compromised their health, happiness, or safety, and I never will.
I think Charm meant to respond to Sparklyreiner, not you, SmartChic. It just go nested wrong.
As Kookaburra noted, I wasn’t meaning to address you directly Smartchic. However, I agree that a nice slide on a horse involves a balanced head position. My point is that if you are riding a pattern and must ‘bring’ your horse’s head up in order to get a balanced sliding stop, you are probably not in a balanced lope to begin with. The origin of reining was the idea of a horse that was handy and able to turn, stop, and go while balanced and light on its feet. There is no excuse for having a front heavy, head to the ground horse in a reining class. You and I are on the same page in that issue.
The stops I witnessed may have had a loose rein, but the horses were not relaxed. They were standing with their head low, having instantly dropped their heads there when stopped. Blowing hard is fine. A ‘tense stop’ at the end of a pattern tells me the horse has been taught not to move, period, no matter what. The point of that loose reined stance is to prove that such a horse can run, turn, and really turn on the speed, then stand quietly and calmly, ready for the next signal. I don’t like to see that created by fear, and there are clear signs that some (not all) of the horses I saw in TV had been schooled to not move a muscle, so help them god. Likewise, a loose reined back is fine, but not when it’s achieved by spurs sunk deep, and not when the horse is frantically pinning its nose to its chest as it backs up. The image is one of, ‘Okay, I’m going! Please don’t pick up the reins! Please please! I’m trying!!!”
Just like dressage, reining has some wonderful trainers and amazing horses. What I saw on that tv show was a showcase of mistrained horses, and they were winning. THAT makes me mad, just as it makes me mad when certain people (Not you) try to explain how there is no abuse in the reining/pleasure/dressage/barrel/racing industry they frequent.
I didn’t think you were responding to me. I was just sharing my personal experience with reining. I don’t agree with the peanut rollers in reining. Al Dunning did an article in H&R speaking against head set trends and Bob Avila just did an article where he speaks out against drugging a horse to increase performance. There are BNTs out there that train without the use of drugs or trendy techniques, but obviously not enough of them.
This is not the first time I’ve heard complaints that reiners are headed in a very bad direction. I’ve never ridden a reiner or even seen one live, but I think they are extremely nifty and was disappointed to hear that they are headed away from sensible, functional performance and towards extremes based on fads. Why can’t humans do ANYTHING without screwing it up?
“I dare say that no one in this forum is competing Gran Prix. So seriously, what critique do you actually have to offer? There are horses being beaten, starved, and sent to slaughter everyday. Isn’t that much more worthy of our attention?”
It is not fair to ignore one form of abuse just because you don’t see it as severe as another. Do you think it’s okay to emotionally abuse a small child as long as you don’t beat them? Do you think it’s okay to lock them in dark closets for lengthy periods of time or publicly humiliate them and tell them it’s because they need to learn a lesson about how to stop being such a worthless little shit? There are parents out there who think that’s okay, because they are not beating or starving the kid.
You don’t have to be an FEI level competitor to know what abuse looks like in a horse anymore than you have to have a doctorate in child psychology to recognize signs of abuse in a child.
Well said.
My trainer is riding Grand Prix and she’s NEVER pulled this kind of crap with her horse. The goal is to have the horse connect with the bit and go FORWARD. Anky is teaching her horses to back off the bit which is a false lightness in the reins.
I’m sure you know all this (being Grand Prix and all) but I’ll explain anyway for people who don’t ride dressage. The energy goes forward from the riders seat into the rider’s hands – the energy is then “recycled” into the horse’s rear, pushing their rear end underneath of them and having them move forward. When you teach your horse to respect your half-halts (I want to say that is the #1 tool in a Dressage training tool box) to keep him on the connection instead of blowing through your hands. I’ve only competed training level and only trained 2d level yet I know this.
Pulling the horse’s head back like that sucks him so far in that it’s not actually possible to have a connection – it’s known as being behind the vertical and I’m not sure what planet having your horse behind the vertical gave anyone the assumption that your horse was forward but if your horse is behind the vertical he’s behind the bit and if he’s behind the bit he’s not on the bit, there’s no connection and he’s not working to his full potential.
She’s being lazy. She’s a small woman riding some big horses. She needs to get some big girl breeches on and learn how to train her horses properly instead of taking the short cuts for the big wins quickly. My trainer is 5’2″ riding an 18H Dutch Warmblood by Contango and she manages somehow in a single bridle with a loose ring snaffle. It’s called TRAINING.
FINALLY someone says that cranking them back like that puts them BEHIND the bit. When I was taking dressage lessons, everything was about CONTACT with their mouths, not having to lean back in the saddle to KEEP contact. I was taught
that the horse should seek contact if you loosen the riens, and vice versa. All these horses are doing is avoiding the bit any way they can, and when they can’t they dump Anky on the ground!! I ride fox trotting horses now, and they need to be on the bit in show. Mind you, that is not cranked back, but just so you can feel them. That is how I was taught in dressage also! Contact, not a vice grip on their face!!!
Your horse should always be seeking the bit and looking for the contact. What she’s doing is faking it. Her horse is so tense and wound he’s going to fall all over himself dropping his head to stretch the muscles in his neck and it’s going to “look” like he’s going forward. What she’s accomplishing via hyperflexion (whatever she wants to call it) SHOULD be accomplished through half-halts and pushing forward from her seat. But that takes time, and effort, and repetition. Strangling him is faster.
I stand corrected, and congratulations to you for your success in dressage.
I’m not defending yank and crank riders. I’ve seen the photos and I’ve also been to an Anky clinic, and I’ve also watched videos of her performances and finished horses. This subject is far from new. I do not believe her to be a yank and crank rider.
One of her competition horses is in his 30s, and Salierno and Bonfire are also aged horses. These are NOT five, six or even 10 year old amateur horses. She also openly admits that this training method does not work on every horse. She also welcomes specialists into her barn to study the effect of LDR on her horses.
I will never change your mind, and that’s not whats important to me anyway. I’m not looking to change people’s minds, but I do think it is unfair to gossip about the unknown.
I think the most important thing to learn from Anky’s situation is that when someone who just doesn’t know, tries to copy one individual training method from one rider on one horse, you really get into trouble.
“I dare say that no one in this forum is competing Gran Prix. So seriously, what critique do you actually have to offer?”
When I see a horse under saddle that is consistently lashing it’s tail, has it’s ears pinned and there is clear tension throughout the body, that tells me the horse is NOT HAPPY. No matter what discipline the horse is taking part in, those are all obvious signals that there is something going on that the horse does not like. And you know what? Even non-horse people can tell that pinned ears and a constantly moving tail means something is wrong! Trying to say that I must be at a certain level in a specific discipline before I’m allowed to correctly interpret equine body language is ludicrous and insulting.
If it’s a training situation, I can give some leeway (i.e. appropriately working a horse through a situation) but if you’re supposed to be in a high level competition? Sorry, nope. If your horse is communicating that they are unhappy, they should not be there, period. If they are showing those signs (helicopter tail, pinned ears, tension throughout body, etc) it means one of two things:
1) horse is sore/injured/sick/etc and should not be competing until they are healthy
2) training has been rushed, horse is not comfortable with what they are doing and again, should not be competing
So, would any Anky fans or pro-rollkur individuals out there be willing to explain WHY so many horses ridden by Anky or with rollkur CONSISTENTLY show signs of being unhappy and WHY this is okay?
I must be so much out of touch but why is the horse dripping with sweat after doing dressage?
http://www.anky.nl/home
And do you have to ride in a double bridle at the level she is at?
Has anyone competed at her level with a bitless or just a plain old snaffle?
Well, a Grand Prix test is very, very tough for a horse. The test is 8-10 minutes long, right? So sweating would not be unexpected. After all, a figure skating long-program is only 4 minutes – if it were “just” skating, the competitors would not be gasping for breath at the end.
Plus, there’s a warm-up. I have never observed Anky ride or warm-up in person, so I can’t say anything about her training, and whether or not she’s cranked her horse into Rollkur the whole time. Finally, Salinero is not known for his quiet disposition. Yeah, yeah, dressage is “supposed to be” all about harmony and relaxation, but at the highest level, we reward brilliance over all, even when it comes in a tense horse package.
FEI rules state you must ride in a double bridle from PSG on up. So no, no one has ridden a sanctioned FEI level test in bitless or even in a snaffle alone. Acceptance of the bit is also one of the central principles of dressage, so one needs to use a bit to demonstrate that.
Somewhere on YouTube there is a nice video of a French Grand Prix rider schooling upper-level movements in a halter and lead ropes. Horse is happy and moving well, but you can see there are some places where he’d do much better if he was in contact with his rider via the bit.
I don’t like the whole idea of Rollkur, and “crank and spank” dressage riding is ugly and painful for the horse. I am blessed to have found a wonderful dressage trainer who is very, very good at explaining how well I need to ride in order to improve my horse’s way of going. And I have had to work harder at this than at any other horse discipline in my life!
She does well at shows, too, so please don’t assume that all competitive dressage riders are whip-slashing, spur-stabbing, mouth-grabbing dressage queens!
You are not allowed, in Dressage , to use drop nosebands of any sort, so they allow the usage of a noseband so vicious it is unbelievable, whereas a simple, correctly adjusted Grackle would be much more humane.
HOW did that happen??
Dropped nosebands are legal for dressage in the U.S. I believe. They just aren’t very “trendy” right now like the flash+crank models.
If you look in the USEF rule book you’re allowed pretty much any kind of noseband on your bridle in Dressage. It’s the Hunters that you aren’t allowed anything other than plain. A dropped noseband also accomplishes the same thing as a flash but most Dressage bridles have a flash on them. Once you get into upper levels they start getting more particular about what you wear but in the lower levels you could show in a western saddle with a piece of string for a bit and you wouldn’t get disqualified.
I am in no way an Anky fan, but that picture was from the Beijing Olympics – the heat and humidity were so high all of the horses looked like that when they were working.
I wouldn’t criticize her for the sweat. The Hong Kong equestrian center used for the Beijing games (yes, the equine events were done near Hong Kong was so hot they were running the events early in the morning and STILL having horses look like that.
For many other things, yes, but not that.
Because she worked the snot out of the horse in the warm up and totally stressed it out! Yes, you have to ride with a double bridle.
I have seen beautiful passage bareback and with a halter and lead rope — retired fei horse, fei dressage rider.
GP level dressage is incredibly difficult and physically demanding for both horse and rider. That horse is also pretty shiny.
The double bridle is required for 4th level and above, optional at 3rd. The purpose of the double is in part due to the complexity of the movements but also minute corrections that are undetectable to the naked, uneducated eye. Quite a bit of the time, the curb rein is loose with very little contact, if any at all, and the snaffle is the part being utilized.
The movements are certainly possible to do without a double, or a bit for that matter, but you aren’t going to get the quality of movement that a well-trained GP horse will perform because there is no mouth connection to the hands, to the seat, to the riders legs, to the horse haunch back into the mouth, like a perfect circle no bit connection would cut that off.
Dressage is a discipline steeped in tradition and the double, as well as the shadbelly and spurs, are considered uniform. Just like brightly colored WP outfits with obnoxious rhinestones to deflect from actual talent are considered uniform.
Upper level tests require a double bridle. I have seen a lot of great upper level riders keep the curb rein fairly slack and use little to no pressure from it throughout the ride.
For informational purposes only, no opinion on Anky per se… If that photo is from the 2008 Olympics, it was EXTREMELY hot and muggy and the horses were performing outside and under lights at night.
Also, dressage at that level isn’t a walk in the park for any horse; it’s completely normal for them to get sweaty because they are working hard.
Snaffles are allowed at *some* FEI-level competitions in the US, but in general these horses have to show in a double. Ideally used, it allows a subtlety of communication that a plain snaffle does not. However, some riders do most or all of their schooling in a snaffle. (Snaffles are allowed at all the pre_FEI levels in the US, but doubles start to be allowed at Second or Third Level and most people do switch.)
Bitless bridles are not allowed in dressage competition (except possibly the Netherlands has separate classes for bitless.) This doesn’t mean a horse ridden in a bitless bridle cannot do dressage, just that it cannot compete against horses wearing bits.
Dressage is hard work. I don’t find it concerning that the horse is that sweaty.
And yes, Anky is showing FEI levels and therefore must compete in a double bridle. It’s kind of a stupid rule IMO, because if you CAN ride upper levels in a snaffle, I think you should be allowed to, but it’s still the rule.
However, she doesn’t have to school in a double.
Also, no one has competed at her levels bitless or in a snaffle because it isn’t allowed, although I’m sure there are at least a few riders who could easily do so if it were allowed. I’m sure you could have inferred that from my first post, but I figured I’d specify anyway.
Yes, at the upper levels of Dressage, a Full/Double bridle is required.
Dressage is similar to Olympic figure skating as far as exertion, especially if it’s hot the horse is going to be really hot and dripping sweat. Some horses also sweat buckets anyway.
Double bridles are required at the higher levels 1. To help “recycle” more energy for the more complex movements (I made a comment to someone above about it) 2. Like the spurs it’s actually a test of the rider’s ability. You have a fraction of a bit of too much tension on the curb bit and the horse isn’t going to go forward. Generally the regular bit is a snaffle and then there’s a lower curb bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPUNsC5RNmA
Before you get all religious about bitless bridles, the description (which is in French) says that this horse is 7 and usually trained in regular metal bits and a rope halter is occasionally used in training. This is a demo of how a rope halter can be used for training (and for fun) not a demo of how a rope halter alone can replace a bit to produce these sorts of results.
There’s another comment in the link to that video that I really like. It notes that the demonstration is to show that you don’t need a bridle for strength (the rider is doing all the speeding up and slowing down with her seat), but you really do need a bridle for precision. (Case in point, early in the demo she asks for a shoulder-in, and the horse jumps to canter – the bridle probably would have helped him to understand what she wanted a little faster)
And as I recall, no one OOed and AHHed over the blue tongue incident by Patrik Kittel. Unfortunately, the FEI excused him, finding nothing “excessive” about his riding technique. If there was ever a person to be pissed at….
I watched that vid, its what got me to look into the issue, so I googled it and saw various vids. I didn’t register to comment until an interesting dog post – but now that I have signed up I will say this; OMG – WTF? How could you say you cared about a horse yet let it get to that horrible state? Something is really efffed up about that rider, that he continued to put his horse through more practice and did not stop for over an hour afterwards. All for what? A big ribbon? Prize money? Disgusting…
I don’t know what you mean by “oohed and aahed” but it was featured here are folks didn’t like it. Looky here, Dr. Spock wrote a book about child rearing that a section of mothers followed for years and later the self same Dr. Spock said that children reared based on his book were spoiled brats. Just because you’re considered an “expert” doesn’t make you one necessarily.
My thoughts are that if you are going to develop and defend a cruel “training” practice then you shouldn’t be angry when your name and picture (or that of your horse) is used when discussing said cruel “training” practice. Nuff said….
I like to periodically watch this video just for pure enjoyment….I find it just mesmerizing. I know most of you have seen this video hundreds of times but I can’t see it enough. R.I.P Matine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw
She was beautiful, to be sure. I hate to point it out, though, but there is evidence of shortcuts taken in her training, too.
Yeah, I loved that video too, but remember several knowledgeable folk commenting that she was too young to go to those levels.
Yes, I know. She was only 9 in this video which leads to conclusion that her training was probably rushed and shortcuts most likely taken with her. IMHO she looks attentive and happy in this performance. I guess you could say I had a big crush on her and was very saddened when she had her accident in Las Vegas and had to be retired, then another accident just playing in the field and she’s gone…so sad.
Humans have evolved to the point that they no longer want to wait for results, they want results now. Work for it? Why when there is an easier, faster way to get there. It happens in every discipline, dressage, TWH Big Lick, reining, cutting, western “pleasure”, halter….you name it some trainer has concieved of a short cut that will get him paid faster. It is ALL about money and who cares who gets hurt.
I love that video! The horse is enjoying herself
I love how the rider hugs her at the end!
That video of Matine is what got me started studying dressage…
Here’s a video of Dr. Reiner Klimke and Alderich doing their victory lap at the “84 Olympics. They do 76 one tempes with the reins in one hand – at about minute 2:20. Sublime and inspirational
WOW! Thanks for posting that link! Riding around that whole arena for 3 minutes with the reins in one hand, doing all kinds of top-level moves. The horse’s ears were flapping around, totally relaxed. As for the posting about the swishing tail, there are 2 kinds — the swishing tail that comes from the horse balancing himself during the move and the nervous helicoper tail. I didn’t see the latter on this horse.
My first introduction to dressage was the video of Klimke and Ahlerich winning that medal. I was completely in awe, I had no idea riding could be like that.
Since then I’ve watched a lot of other dressage performances, and while they were really amazing to me as someone new to horses in general…they lacked something, somehow. Everything about it was mismatched. The horses seemed like their hind ends were lazy and their front ends were manic and frenzied, and the crazy tail swishing and twitchy ears reminded me of a really pissed off cat, or something.
And here’s Klimke warming up, in a snaffle. I could watch him all day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzG-0TyTuMs
This is great performance and shows many good things about Dressage, but I find the tail-wringing to be very distracting. I know that Dressage people tend to look the other way when it comes to a busy tail, but for what I do a helicopter tail will leave you out of the ribbons every time. Still, a wonderful contrast to any Anky video
See, modern American horse shows & the prevalence of blocked, gingered or “set” tails in various breeds have clouded people’s judgment.
THERE IS A VAAAAAST HUGE GINORMOUS DIFFERENCE between a “wringing” tail and a “busy” or simply “swishy” tail.
The tail – like the head – is an extension of the vertebrae. Just look at a skeleton.
The more you mess with it, the more you interfere with the horse’s natural balance, talent and movement. Look how rhythmically some horses’ tails swish when they do sproingy things like passage.
A dead tail is a dead giveaway that nefarious training practices are going on.
Yes, there is a huge difference – and she is ABSOLUTELY wringing it during many parts of that test (take note of her half passes, piaffe/passage, and several of her pirouettes). There are parts where she’s just “swishing” or “busy” with it, but when you’ve got a helicopter tail, you have an issue somewhere. Whether it’s a lack of relaxation or just her habitual response to the spur aid, it’s still incorrect. I agree that an absolutely dead tail is also a problem, but her tail is an extreme that I would not be happy with. She was able to win DESPITE her tail because she was brilliant in other areas which made up for the negatives from her tail wringing.
If you watch closely, she does it right in time with the spur in her side – spur. swish (wring). spur. swish. spur. swish. etc. While she may have just developed it as a habit at some point, it is still incorrect. I find it similar to a horse who likes to loll his tongue out – at some point it was likely developed due to unhappiness in the bridle, but many horses continue to do it after their issues are fixed because it’s a habit – it’s still incorrect even if the horse can perform just fine with it. Tail wringing/swishing is similar to me. It usually develops somewhere along the lines during training due to stress, miscommunication, lack of relaxation, or just plain “disobedience.” It usually means something isn’t 100% somewhere, and even if that’s not the case, it’s incorrect for dressage.
I have a very talented dressage horse who is a swisher – it drives me nuts. He’s happy in his work and overall very capable of anything we ask of him. However, I know whenever he gives a swish in response to an aid, it may just be him “talking” to me, but I consider it to be a fault (and more like “talking back”) and do my best to figure out what I’m doing that’s causing that negative response.
Anyway, I think that this was a lovely and extremely talented mare, however, I could never get over her helicopter tail… The “floppy” mare ears are not enough to counter her tail, in my opinion – she still looks tense in many parts of her test and is showing her dislike of the spurs and the questions being asked of her with her tail.
Some horses seem to respond to a spur with a ritual tail swish. This builds, even or especially in willing horses, because often they receive the spur, respond correctly AND swish at the same time, and get a release of pressure because they did what was asked. Within a short time, you have a tail swish every time the spur makes contact. Since the horse ALSO responds correctly and moves as directed, the spur goes away, and the swishing is rewarded.
Eventually, you have some serious tail swishing going on, even though the horse is happy, relaxed, and enjoying its ride.
Agreed. But in Arabs we don’t block tails. It would be counterproductive for us, anyway, because we desire a high arched tail. A little swish here and there is acceptable, as is a tail that swings softly with the motion of the horse. What I see in this video and a fair amount of Dressage horses that is very undesirable for us is the helicopter tail.
Wait a minute….Matine is dead? Last I heard, she lacerated her leg prior to the Beijing Olympics and didn’t compete, then was retired and bred. When did she die? And what from?
She was retired and they planned to breed her but she was put down as a result of a field accident.
She lacerated her leg in a trailer loading/unloading accident in Las Vegas and they ended up retiring her. She then had an accident while playing in the field and (I believe) she broke her leg and was euthanized.
It was January 26, 2010 – http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2010/01/134.shtml
Broke a foreleg at the knee in a paddock accident last winter. Sad end to an extremely short career
link: http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2010/01/134.shtml
That’s so terrible. And to lose her in a paddock accident, too, just like Cabana Boy. Seems like it’s the most upsetting to lose them while they are outside just being horses.
As someone who learned dressage in the early 80s, was involved with it into the early 90′s, then pretty much ignored it until just recently, Anky’s performance at the last Olympics was the first time I had seen the results of Rollkur-based training. I was shocked. I didn’t know at the time that it was controversial, I just thought it was ugly and opposed to the spirit of dressage. I didn’t understand why a horse who was obviously uncomfortable and moved in a way that was freakish and unnatural was being rewarded with a gold medal.
On the same site that is being sued is this reminiscence of an older Olympian. Look at what dressage used to look like:
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2010/08/18/stephan-field-accident-gone-olympic
Note that the horse’s head is never behind the vertical. Note that he is forward moving and alert. Note the energy and the impulsion. Note also that he is built like a horse, not a hyena. Only while performing a piaffe are his shoulders elevated above his rump. He moves like a horse, a beautiful horse, combining the best of a horse at liberty and the best of a horse in submission to his rider.
What the hell happened?
Money and the desperate, undignified search for shortcuts. Argh.
Notice that Stephan started at 7, was 18 in the last year of competition, then worked as a schoolmaster and retired healthy until he was 29, when they put him down after colic and laminitis. Clearly they were doing things right back then!
Same thing that eventually happens in all of the other sports. People wanted faster results, and more “flair.” They want it fast, they don’t really care how they get it, and they will pay for it. Let’s add to the fact that dressage has been trying to find ways to bring attention to the sport, to draw a crowd. I personally think that we, as a collective dressage community, lost our focus. We were so busy trying to lure people into the sport we lost the focus of our core values and training methods. And it’s evident everywhere. Anky is not the only one who uses rollkur. It was a problem in Germany first. It has been argued that Edward Gal has used it in his training of Moorlands Totilas. There was debate as to whether or not it was used in the training of the late YouTube sensation Blu Hors Matine. And then there are the judges who not only allowed it, but rewarded it, and even revered it. Some of the comments by some of the judges who scored rides for all of the above mentioned horses/riders would make a classical dressage enthusiast ill. It’s politics and greed, pure and simple, and it sucks. Flat out. And the one that suffers the most? Our beautiful horses.
Why do horses look like they are cripple robots win in Western Pleasure?
Because some retarded idiot judges started rewarding poor movement and the self-centered retarded idiots in the ring started copying it.
” I didn’t understand why a horse who was obviously uncomfortable and moved in a way that was freakish and unnatural was being rewarded with a gold medal.”
Hurrah! As a former long-time AQH owner, I don’t understand why a similar thing is rewarded with a World Championship. Just as it is inappropriate for dressage, I feel that unnatural, mechanical motion is inappropriate for “Pleasure”. I will probably never again own a QH, Paint, or App. I have just been completely turned off by their “look” these days. I would rather own a well-balanced, correctly-conformed mutt of a horse.
Why not let the horse dictate what he can do, either by willingness or conformation, or talent? Or, why force a naturally-talented-but-not-so -stylish-looking horse into a false ideal?
cool story, thanks for the link.
Thanks for this link!!!
I just looove this story and you´re absolutely right. The pictures show exactly what is wrong with dressage nowadays… :-/
LOL, Sparky, great example of a horse evading contact with the bit and not doing what it’s supposed to be doing. If the horse was working as it’s supposed to be (and as the person on the lunge wants it to be), it would be on the bit and be poll high. No, nobody is cranking it’s head into that position, but nobody wants it in that position. What a joke.
When people have seen Anky’s horses with bloody mouths and spur marks, something is wrong. This person is winning dressage shows and affecting young people, and she should be brought to light. She is abusive to horses, period, and that’s one of the myriad topics discussed here. If you don’t like it, don’t read it, but don’t post when you don’t know what you are talking about (as that pic clearly shows).
I saw Anky riding Salinero this past winter in the Eqxis Dressage Masters Freestyle in Wellington. And, though I’m a hunter/jumper girl and not a dressage rider, I was absolutely shocked that she won.
Her horse was extremely tense, unhappy, swishing his tail, and pinning his ears (um, isn’t relaxation at the BASE of the dressage training scale?). In addition, his front legs were ridiculously uneven — he would lift one waaaaaay up all snappy & flashy & the other one was always low and “unexpressive.” It was glaring, not at all subtle. The one thing that looked decent to me was the extended trot, and even that looked a bit too animated — almost kinda Tennesse Walker-ish.
Meanwhile, Steffen Peters had an incredible ride on Ravel, who was relaxed and happy, with his big puppy dog ears flopping around. They got second. ??
The best part was during the awards ceremony, where Ravel was all chill and content, while Salinero pawed, spun around, snorted, spooked, and acted like an all-around ticking time-bomb of insanity. Anky was about a half second away from being bucked off and/or run away with. Great training.
That is called bridle lame, and it is VERY difficult to fix. It is also very typical for a horse that is not soft on both sides of the bridle or moving forward off of both hind legs. The resisted behaviors, bridle lame motion, and spooking often come as a total package with poor training.
Interesting. I never knew precisely what bridle lame meant. Knew it had something to do with being uneven but wasn’t clear on it.
As for Anky, I have never ridden high level dressage but I hate the way her horses look. Very unnatural. Dressage to me should look fluid and effortless, and the horse relaxed and willing. That is not what I see in her performances.
I’ve never heard of that term, arabtrainer; but I knew when I was watching that there was definitely something “off” about the way Salinero was moving. Can you explain what “bridle sore” is a bit more?
Bridle lame is a term that we Arab trainers use to describe a horse who is not actually sore or lame anywhere, yet appears “off” when ridden in a frame. The most common form is when the horse lifts one front leg higher than the other and the leg that he is not using well sort of flips out on front of the horse usually with toe-flicking. It can also be seen with one hind leg that comes up under the horse nicely while the other one gets left behind. The cause of this is a horse that is not supple on both sides of the bridle and/or not moving forward to the contact.
I have seen it be caused by an unbalanced rider, too. Chiro can work wonders for the human
Another issue I see too often is trying to make umatched hooves “match”. If you horse has an upright hoof, do NOT allow your farrier to try to make them match. Unless X-rays show that the skeleton matches leg for leg (in which case you’ve got some nasty hoof deformity going on!), you will unbalance the animal by trying to make him “pretty”. This happens a lot, unfortunately.
Fugly, your comment box is so $%#@&& SLOW it’s taken me 15 minutes to write just this much!! Girl, you gotta do sumthin ’bout all the crap on your page!
That’s an interesting point — I looked at the photo you posted and I have a hard time seeing its similarity to the cranked-in rollkur position we’re discussing, where the jaw actually touches the chest, fully disengaging the neck and head from the rest of the spine and causing that weird long outline some of the modern dressage horses get. I don’t call what I see in your photo ideal, but this seems to be a warm up and on the viewer’s side at least, the side rein seems to be loose. Actually, they look loose on both sides, indicating the horse is maybe willingly in that position?
Gran Prix riders have, in fact, criticized rollkur, but modern dressage is a big business with just as many problems as racing and show-jumping — would you defend all the winning practices of racing as well? Do they create a sustainable and sane riding partner? Do you believe that judges are perfect? Rollkur, according to vets, is abusive if used for too long and causes damage to spine and musculature. Videos surfaced of Anky riding in it for WAAAY longer than the vet-accepted period of about 10 seconds at a time. I could care less if she wins. In fact, I think it’s a symptom of serious problems in the dressage world and it WILL end given a few years and some guts.
Check out some of the writings of Philippe Karl. There is more than one kind of dressage, remember, and a lot of people are turning back to classical dressage. Hopefully, we’ll get to see more of that in the next decade or so.
Even at Pony Club level, a swishing tail is seen as a resistance, and penalised.
Maybe the Judges are now just scared to put her down?
It happens in showing, after all.
She’s now in the league of big-lick walking horse trainers, IMO. What a sorry piece of work.
Did I also hear cranky Anky’s getting into reining and wants to compete in both reining and dressage in 2012.
Yes, you heard right. She is the devil.
I think I read something about that, too – SUPER. Another sport for Anky to f-up and influence badly!
I don’t know if some reining trainers have a reputation like Western pleasure trainers do, but I DO know they often ride and compete ‘em way too young, i.e. at two. And there’s definitely a reason Adequan sponsors the sport (imagine what those young, soft hocks go through – it makes me ill). Regardless, reining certainly doesn’t need a BNT who will use short cuts and cruel training methods to force horses to perform. If there’s already a problem in reining, well, Anky will fit right in!
I know have written about this before here, but I have a largely dressage-horse barn in my own backyard. They have nearly 50 horses on five acres; you can imagine what the story is with turnout. A few of the luckier ones (probably those belonging to the BO, and a couple school horses) get a short solo ramble in two grass paddocks that are maybe 30” by 60′. The rest get “turnout” into dirt enclosures about 15′ square. Yeah, that’s fun! I would hope the horses are also let loose into the indoor arena sometimes and allowed to run at will. but I really don’t know… One time, my dog was in our backyard and barked at a horse who was being hand-grazed across the way on a small patch of lawn (there are trees and a gravel drive between us). The horse was startled so I apologized. The owner yelled back, “It’s okay, he just doesn’t get out much.” YA THINK???
Sorry, that would be 30 FEET by 60 feet. Freudian error, I’m sure!
Time to trot out one of my favorite essays of ALL TIME.
http://www.robertmmiller.com/andthcaushol.html
That should be interesting – how will she stay on when she can only have one hand on the reins and not contact even then… should be interesting to say the least. Even at the small circuit where I grew up the top reiners could to it bridless… I don’t see this women having the control/talent to do that.
Eh, I watched reining on tv recently. She will fit right in with a lot of those guys.
Yes. Reining.
Anky Reins
Pretty crappy slides for an international competition. Not to mention the hands up to her shoulders going in the run up to the slide. I wonder how she placed?
For the sake of reining as a sport, I hope she placed really badly. Her spins were sloppy, her circles weren’t round, and her slides sucked. My Arab who has never competed does better sliding stops than that.
I agree with you! The horse is obviously well trained, but her riding could use a lot more polish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZIYM76mYag&feature=related
This is reining!!!!!
This is a good youtube going into the mechanics of a horse’s neck in rollkur:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UwqyMCr_7c&feature=related
::headesk::
Which come first. The slaughterhouse for the horse or the ER for the girl?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVg2h6UL_A0
Oh my GOD! (too big for a mere OMG, btw)
first off, is there any purpose to training a rear like that?
In the High School of the SRS, they come up on their hind legs, but in collection.. it was an old warhorse maneuver, AND it strengthens (and displays) the musculature and coordination, flexibility and strength of a horse. NO WAY would you see that neck go upside down due to obvious jerking on the mouth and unhappiness with the situation.
And asking the horse to rear while sitting backwards? I hate to be uncharitable — but that’s just stupid! I don’t even have to LIST the reasons why that is rather ill-advised but the first on my list would be ‘the rider is blind to most of the signals the horse might give if it’s liable to choose a different response than the one you THINK you have trained.’
Here we are again.. slamming a poor innocent kid on Fugly.. but if said ‘poor innocent kid’ is doing stupid stuff PUBLICLY, to show off.. perhaps some comments will get back to her and IF she has any sense, she’ll think about things she might not have thought of before.
Hopefullly that will happen before the part of her anatomy that ‘thinks’ is injured beyond repair. (did I see a poor, vulnerable cranium, protected only by a few millimeters of skin, fat, and hair?)
“When he sets a destinatin where he wants to be, he rears to get there. ”
And there lies the core problem with this situation. I had a mare when I was a teen who I taught to rear. I did it safely, and I picked the correct horse to train that way. If a horse has ANY desire to go up on its own, there only an idiot would train that horse to do such a thing. The girl has no control of the horse before and after the rear, her cue to the horse is basically a cue that says, “Resist my hands and legs and I’ll release you”, and the horse’s balance is negligible. Add to that the horrid flipping head just begging to break the girl’s nose, and you have total fail start to finish.
I like the riding of Klaus Balkenhol — here’s a link — but of course I don’t know anything about his day to day management of horses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXjaRkRYP4w
I am email friends with a woman who has taken lessons from Klaus Balkenhol. I also had the opportunity to hear Debbie McDonald, before Brentina was retired, talking about working with him when he coached the US Dressage Team. Finally, after Gunter Seidel broke his pelvis, U II went to Klaus for training/riding.
In the first two cases, there was high praise for Klaus and his teaching methods, his riding, and his training of young horses. Sending a horse of the caliber of U II to Klaus for training speaks highly of him, as well.
I was privileged enough to watch him at a demonstration clinic in southern California. Not only is he a gentleman to everyone he meets or speaks to, but he is kind and thoughtful to the horses. He emphasized time and time again giving horses a break on a long rein to let them relax their musculature. If I could run away to train with him I would in a heartbeat (Sorry hubby).
Oh and i recommend this book,
TUG OF WAR: Classical versus ‘Modern’ Dressage
Why Classical Training Works and How Incorrect Riding Negatively Affects Horses’ Health, by Dr Gerd Heuschmann.
A very interesting read, and the Dr. Gerd is a true horseman who is really trying to change things.
There is also dressagedisgrace.com.
Also check out epona tv — they’re the ones who got the blue tongue discussion going and they’re doing horse journalism like it’s never been done before! truly inspiring horsepeople. It is subsciption, but i thought it was worth the $40 or so dollars for 30 days of viewing.
http://epona.tv/uk/home/
The sad thing about dressage magazines, is this: they depend on being read by competition riders, and if they caused too much of a stir by taking on issues like the blue tongue video, their advertisers would be gone in a flash, so the issues of abuse in showing/competition isn’t often discussed there. Starving horses, sure; Anky’s training methods, not so much — they need the ad revenue they get from the ads for her silly clothing line!
There is not enough independent journalism in the horse world. In fact there is barely any at all.
I’ll second that. I saw the Tug of War movie back when horseflix was still around and it was *excellent*. I learned so much, and I’m a backwaters hick western rider who’s never seen any dressage in person past the open shows.
Dr. Heuschmann is a vet who fights against Rollkur. You cn see a trailer for one of his dvds here (English subtitles):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJdcm8yCTRg
He one of the persons that is responsible for starting a discussion about this horrible method. It is a big topic in Germany these days and there are a lot of discussion what should be done etc.
I can´t enjoy watching dressage nowadays, a lot of unhappy, stiff horses and arrogant riders. :-/
Excellent book and video… Dr. Hershmann focused his research on dressage horses and rollkur, but I learned SO much about the physiology of horses’ movement via the book and video.. what I learned has helped me ride more tactfully.
she made a deal with the devil
Please contact me-
I have pics of horrible horse abuse from a so called “trainer/shoer” in oregon state.
He needs stopped before he ruins and or kills more horses. I have tried letting the public know- but it’s hard to get word out. He ties horses heads to their tales and whips them until he gets them to pick up their front end while spinning- often until they hit panels and fall down. He uses lip chains to the extreme and breaks teeth. He will throw a horse on the ground and tie it up if he cant get it to hold still for shoeing. He sticks nails into horses frogs as hard as he can if they misbehave while shoeing (of course the owner thinks it’s the horse)– really the horses rear back because of his abuse.
He treats horses like fluffy little kittens when the owner is around, but when the owner leaves it’s a different story. He will place a double twisted wire snaffle in a horses mouth and practically pull them in two trying to get brakes established. He uses salt to correct bruising when he damages horses eyes with whips.
How do I know? I was there. He needs stopped.
Wow, that’s some pretty awful stuff. The best way to out him is to get a video of him in the act.
What’s his name? Where in Oregon is he based? If you don’t want to say publicly, my google mail is my name here with 1701 tacked onto the end of it. (I’m trying to find out more info on an abusive Oregon farrier myself.)
I used to ride, and show many years ago, but not now. I have been watching on You Tube, though. So, I have some questions. Not criticizing, I just don’t know.
What is the difference between ‘rollkur’ and ‘regular riding’, whatever that is called. I’m sure, if I saw both going on at once I could not tell the difference. The photos look the same to me.
I watched a video on Y.T. the other day, and the judges were raving about Anky, and then she won…so, my question: if it is ‘bad’ (not saying it isn’t) why isn’t the audience booing, and why are judges continuing to put her up? ‘Everyone’ seems to be against her, and yet the audience screams, and cheers, and judges give her first place. Only wondering, here.
And from the link: “[Rollkur] is forbidden as well as any head-neck position which is obtained in an aggressive way. The LDR-method, on the other hand, obtains a deep bending of the neck without force and this is allowed.â€
What does LDR stand for, and saying something is forbidden because it was obtained in an ‘aggressive’ way is subject to someone watching and linking the two…not always (certainly in a court of law) so easy to do.
Again, not criticizing…I just don’t know.
Thank you!
This video explains things fairly well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UwqyMCr_7c
And here is a good picture comparison.
Anky, known to practice Rollkur: http://www.dressuurstal.be/images/Den_Bosch_2005/Anky_van_Grunsven_&_Salinero_2KC_8834b.jpg
And Dr. Reiner Klimke, http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/H/Hector,%20Chris/Xenophon/PartFour/Reiner%20Klimke.jpg
Look closely, you can see the differences, mostly in his hind end.
This is a video by Dr Klimke that is very informative that shows the difference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1jF4E4QnAg
Wow… a quick glance at the two photos shows me:
- one horse with its neck/shoulder properly lifted for lightness through the extension – look at the softness through the reins & the rider’s back, too.
- one horse merely “powering through” the extended trot, with great tension thru the front end, and a poker-backed, unforgiving rider.
And this is ME, the fairly uneducated, observing.
You hit the nail on the head, though. So much for a non-Grand Prix rider not having any room to critique. You’re better educated than you think
Thanks!
I look at lotsa pictures – and am trying to develop a *feel* on horseback. I wish my barn had a mirror in the arena.
Like anything else, it’s a lot easier to see than do!!
We don’t have a lot of dressage in everyday driving distance. I feel like it’s time to take myself to some shows and study it LIVE.
Love, love that last video. To me (someone who took dressage lessons as a supplement to the jumpers… my horse and I were never going to be competitive in dressage, but it helped us immensely over fences because I had a more classical dressage instructor), that explains it all.
Another interesting comparison is to compare Klimpke and Anky’s freestyle routines…
Klimke and Ahlerich in New York:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T3AcvnEuMw
Anky and Salinero in Florida:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EURtqUlvjFI
WHAT is she doing with her right lower leg?
Totally OT but here’s an article about selling your horse to the right buyer: http://myhorse.com/finding-right-new-owner.html?utm_source=equine&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=equineNews
HOORAY FEI and KNHS!!!!
Too bad the AQHA doesn’t have the balls to do the same to WP and reining trainers who crank’n'yank (often young) horses……
Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8
Ever since Deb Bennett’s article in the August issue of Equus, I keep looking at my horse’s shadow in the arena, wondering if he has a “broken” neck…… nope, doesn’t look like it. Whoever trained him 15 years ago didn’t screw him up!
Finally had to register on the “new” blog because sparkly reiner has to be responded to.
Sparkly reiner’s defense of rollkur becomes obvious just by looking at her user name.
Reining, western dressage, has trainers who use these same methods as shortcuts
to the high scores in that discipline. “yank and crank” till the horse’s mouth bleeds (ever
seen an ace of spades bit?), rock grinders on the horses sides till they bleed, head held so
tight against the chest you’dswear the horse was about to do a summersault (and these
horses are winning). All abusive shortcuts for trainers who can’t or won’t put the time in
to train a reining horse properly. Of course when the futurity is for three year olds it is easy
to see the appeal of a shortcut, but that is a different topic.
Watch a horse’s ears and tail in reining. Watch it’s mouth. There are many angry, not so willingly
guided, horses in the sport of reining. They too, spend much of their lives in stalls without
companionship lest they injure themselves or others with the sliders. they too have their heads tied up
for hours before a class so they will be tired enough to run with their heads in the proper position.
I know nothing about dressage. I know what is natural headset for a horse and what isn’t. I DO know
about reining. I also know that the NRHA is about as brave as Scooby and Shaggy in taking
a stance against abuse in reining. Until it gets a pair, this behavior will continue. Maybe the stance on
rollkur will give the NRHA the confidence it needs to put an end to abuse in reining.
My take on opinions of training methods are this: If you are doing it or something similar you will defend it.
If you are not, you won’t. I may be full of shit, but this take has worked pretty well for me in life so far.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgoAnrrdirg Anke’s first reining show.
Her ultimate goal would be something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc6Vb1ofcro&p=C0572971EFD59910&playnext=1&index=36
I am not a fan of reining, not that I watch it a lot but I have yet to see a horse that looks like it is having fun! I am an eventer. All of my horses have really enjoyed the jumping part. Mostly they tolerate the dressage because they have to do it to get to the jumping part. But they really LOVE the jumping part so that is the scale I use against other equestrian sports. I see it at least some happy horses in plenty of other disciplines but I have yet to see it in reining.
I am still trying to figure out how reining raises to the level of the World Equestrian Games! Endurance takes a phenomenal horse with a smart rider with a good strategy. Dressage at that level takes a talented horse that takes years to develop by a talented rider (notwithstanding all the rollkur crap lately). The jumpers have to qualify during the week and the top four riders have to switch horses and jump a huge course on three other horses besides theirs for God’s sake! The eventers take years to rise to that level. The courses are very hard and of course, dangerous! How in the world does reining rise to the level of what the other horses do to be included in the games? Okay I almost left out combined driving and vaulting–both very hard taking years to develop.
Seriously, can anyone tell me why pinned ears on a horse sliding and spinning a few times for a couple minutes rises to the world games level??
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Like Rhythmic Gymnastics at the Olympics, it looks “pretty” to the layman, so they put it in to draw more spectators.
Actually that was just my knee-jerk response.
My biggest 2 beefs with reining:
1) they do it to the horses TOO YOUNG, and there’s something wrong with a sport where hock injections are industry standard.
2) Reining is creeping more toward a WP look, which bodes ill on several levels.
I’d rather see reining done even MORE like dressage: young horses get a bosal, and top-level horses over age 8 or so (if they last that long) could compete in a spade bit, properly handled in vaquero fashion. Or bridleless. I love it when good riders do it bridleless! I just don’t like the strung out look of the horses.
After all, “buckaroo” is the Americanization of the word “vaquero.”
OK WOW. I didn’t realize that Patrik Kittel was her student!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=16856
In other news, asshat Ernie Paragallo has been banned from the American Stud Book by the Jockey Club. Woot!
Rollkur sucks. But it’s like every other horse show situation in other disciplines–the judges have to stop rewarding it.
Completely OT, but: http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=12159724&cat=106&lpid=&search=
Funny spelling mistake!
What’s not funny is a 15-month old under saddle that can “hold weight.”
I think you’ll find you misunderstood the term “hold weight”. I think in this context it means he is a easy keeper.
oops, re-read your comment. Under saddle at 15 months? yeah, you’re right that’s pretty sad, but that is one of the funniest spelling errors I’ve heard in a while.
Sorry–I wrote it wrong. It says “take weight” (not hold weight) and I think they really are referring to the horse’s being able to take the weight of a rider. Disturbing. And I hope the spelling error is not in any way Freudian…
I just sent an email to the seller, telling her to take the (too big!) saddle off and leave it off! And to let that poor little creature grow up, physically and mentally, before putting it into training. I hope the email gets through to her, in both senses of the word.
OH MY! That misspelling is hysterical!! Oh, and I have a palomino gelding. His mane and tail are WHITE! This guy’s mane is black and don’t I see a black stocking just barely on one leg? Um, palomino, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Nothing to comment on the dressage debate other than Anky’s horses look miserable and unhappy. Poor horse….
Rollkur doesn’t appeal to me at all. The horses sure look unhappy. To see the other side of the coin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzG-0TyTuMs&feature=player_embedded#
Notice that Herr Klimke is riding this horse in a snaffle – and don’t they look happy together?
Yeah–and I have a question–why do we get what we get on RFD-TV, while in Germany on Pferdia TV, they get Reiner Klimke!??? I’m jealous! (And I must brush up on the German…)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1jF4E4QnAg&feature=related
(Yes, I know, sadly, he’s gone, but I could happily watch true masters from any generation ride all day long!)
I´ll help you with your German!
Fortunately, a lot of riders here rediscover the old riding masters. Years and years ago, every dressage included a jump at the end, imagine what most of the dressage horses would do now when they see a jump, LOL!
Here is a great rider and very funny guy!! He also has clinics in the USA, by the way!
A few of his horses are 25+ years old and still going strong!
http://www.johannenhof.de/fotos/Halfter%202.jpg
http://www.johannenhof.de/galerie_impressionen/images/Bild%2015.jpg
PS: Here´s the translation for the Dr. Klimke Video:
“The horse´s head is much too deep, the head is pulled downwards. If you ride like this, you kill every natural go a horse has. This way, you may force a horse to do something, but there is no flexibility and the back is very tense.
Now we take a look at the slow motion: The hind legs are very high in the air, so that there is a lot of strain on the forehand. If there is someone who thinks that you can train a horse just by pulling its head to its chest, you should take a look at the pictures and see that this is wrong!
Now back to the correct way: this horse has earned some praise! It´s very amazing that it allowed the rider to ride it this way. And this is why it is first ridden on a straight line in a nice forward pace so that it can feel safe again. But now again out of the corner into the diagonal and extended trot. The neck looks great and take a look how his ears point forward. The whole movement is uphill. And now, as a reward, the reins are loosened. This is a test to find out if the movement was real and not because the horse was tense.”
Sorry for any mistakes, but there isa lot of special vocabulary in the video!
“Buoyant.” YES.
Had the privelege of riding in clinics held in Jax with Thomas Ritter and his wife Shana. First time I went, as I dragged my trailer up I-75, I wondered if perhaps I’d gotten in over my head, as I am not YET a highly accomplished rider. Would he use a stronger hand than I was comfortable with, etc etc etc.
What I discovered was the *True* natural horsemanship. The Ritters work with tact and patience… they know (and teach their students) how to recognize rider error vs. equine error… and that finding a remedy for something that is difficult for the horse or the rider is far, far more productive than ‘teaching that horse a lesson’.
Classical riding IS dressage at its best… dressage being ‘training with the goal of approaching perfection and grace in the horse. That, my friends, applies to what *all* riding and training should be… working with the horse to help it become it’s ‘best self’.
Rollkur, and other methods used in competitive dressage, don’t quite meet that standard.
Thank you for this.
Did you see that she’s the reserve for the Dutch reining team?
OT, but Craigslist asshat:
http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/grd/1920592597.html
“I am not against the Free Enterprise system working. If you take these horses with plans of sending them on “THE JOURNEY†it’s OK with me. Once they’re in your trailer they become your property to do as you wish with them. ”
(the horses are free, if anyone has space to rehome)
That’s disgusting. I particularly love how the 12 year old mare, who apparently was in a disabled rider program at some time in her life, is to be rewarded by “the journey.” That dude is one sick SOB.
Oh, whine, Anky.
People are finally wising up to the fact that you are a lousy trainer and a lousy rider and you don’t like it. How about learning to ride better instead of threatening to sue people.
The other impression I get from Anky is deliberate selection of ‘hot’ horses because…either she thinks it makes her look like a better rider or she thinks its easier to get true impulsion from a hot horse.
You know what, Anky, if you rode the right damn end of the horse, you’d get true impulsion. And getting thrown doesn’t make you look like a good rider. It makes you look like an idiot.
True dressage is about balance. True impulsion starts with the horse’s inside hind.
The double bridle…and the (blunt) spurs are supposed to be for precision. The goal of dressage is for the judge not to see your aids at all, but for everything to look like its the horse’s own idea.
Rollkur. Is. Not. Dressage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEsjPgJrg1Q
That horse is f-ing happy to have her off of his back. What a crazy, hypocritical bitch she is.
Welp, you see, “dressage” means “training” and training means training to be a bucking horse at the local rodeo.
She stayed on pretty well for a while. Unfortunately rollkur doesn’t really help you get the horse’s head up and untucked so he can’t buck. And I was totally weirded out by how sloppy her posting was at the beginning of the video. She looks there like some re-rider with weak legs, not like a professional who rides every day.
Hey! As a re-rider with weak legs I resent that! I would NEVER ride like Anky
Hah – I’m no rodeo queen, but I’d be willing to bet I could have stayed on that horse. He didn’t REALLY mean it. Some professional rider she is! Couldn’t pull his head up at all?
My 15-year-old son was aboard my friend’s WB, just walking along, when Mr. Chestnut Smarty-Pants thought he’d take the obviously newbie rider for a REAL ride and started cantering. Clear-thinking son had the presence of mind to grab the pommel of the Wintec dressage saddle with one hand, while turning naughty horse in a circle. He stuck on just fine until I was able to catch the reins. (Yes, I was rather alarmed but he was wearing a helmet and we were in deep sand – and I was shocked because this WB usually has the momentum of a well-fed snail when I am trying to get him to do something!)
My point? I think if my boy, who’s been on a horse about 5 times in his whole life, could cope with what to him was a pretty big crisis, Cranky Anky should be able to ride the bucks out of a horse. Though kudos to him for getting rid of the pest on his back!
Wow, what a lovely courbette!
In fairness, it looks like the horse spooked at a camera flash in the stands right next to him (clueless show spectators is a rant for another day), got started bucking and got away on her. She stuck fairly well, all things considered. However, the rigidity of the horse’s action at the trot and her riding really kind of skeeves me out, even given the lousy video quality. There looks to be zero give in her hands while she’s posting.
Also, even allowing for spook, a dressage horse trained to that level and being used in competition should NOT lose it like that. And it happens in other disciplines too. Didn’t somebody post a compiled video of pro jumper horses that were totally OTT and out of control at competitions? To me, the first point of high level training is obedience. No, horses aren’t robots and they will spook and misbehave, but it seems to me that people are showing more and more rank and ill-trained brats and just excusing it with “well, he’s just a difficult ride”. No, he’s just overfed and undertrained!
Not a dressage person at all…I do appreciate the good horses and great riders but cant stand to watch the tail swishing and ear pinning.
Who is this guy..I ran across alot of his videos and one that I think is him where his horse has a blue tongue??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPAK_cc5P3g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4&feature=related
I see his name is Patrick Kittel I just wondered if he was really a big wig or if some one put a but load of videos on youtube of him so it looked like he was. Its always hard with youtube, you just never know!
He’s the one on the home page of dressagedisgrace.com
OK, so let’s pretend to be only concerned with the training results and forget about the welfare of the horse… just for argument’s sake. The second video shows some “lateral flexion” where the horse never releases. The rider simply pulls the horse’s head down and around, holds it there, and then releases. The entire point of lateral flexion is for the horse to release each side of his jaw and neck. In this video the horse never releases. He simply lays down on the bit. Of course we all know that what these people are doing is bad for the horse, but it is also just bad training. All training is about pressure and release.
UGH! Looks so HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I believe he’s a student of Anky’s…..
Anky has posted a 3 part video series on RDL and Rollkur, describing how she uses it as a tool to develop
only the GP horses, the ones that have achieved a high degree of collection. She says that those of us who
casually ride dressage at lower levels cannot possibly understand her plight as an upper level international competitor.
Shes a “professional” and therefore, must use “new” techniques to develop the horses further and win.
I think Anky should give up Dressage, and switch to reining full time.
I think she should give up horses period, that’d make the most people (and horses) happy.
LOL that’s ok! We don’t want her!
Why can’t she get mowed down by her unhappy horses and die already? I think the only reason she’s winning is because the judges have been letting her win for so long that now they don’t know what’s actually right and wrong themselves, and if anyone gets the balls to say she sucks among the judges they probably get executed for dissing their top rider. Or the judges are too lazy to properly judge anymore so they keep picking the same people regardless whether they are good or not. I have no idea why the judges think these people are good, but I bet if they got off their lazy asses and rode these people’s horses, maybe only THEN would they see how truly terrible their training is. I heard judges used to do that back in the day with schooling shows to actually asses the horse’s training themselves. I don’t think it’s a bad idea for the top level shows. But then again maybe the judges can’t even ride and therefore don’t know what they’re truly looking at, but who knows why this has been allowed for so long… it’s so gross…
Also, eurodressage.com doesn’t seem to be working anymore, or maybe it’s just my crappy computer :\
They were (unfortunately) probably DNS’d at Anky’s request, many ISPs simply cave at the slightest hint of trouble and take the site down.
Or it could have been their own decision if they were named in the suit at all, or simply got wind of it.
Hopefully eurodressage can find an ISP who actually cares about their customers/is willing to fight for them!
the site seems to be working all right now
Yes, it’s true that it is very easy to file a DMCA document and have a site taken down by a US based host. Which is why, if you are concerned about these types of things, it’s good to host offshore. But, if you submit a counter claim with your host outlying your point of view and why you are not infringing on copyrighted content they have to by law put your site back online in 48 hours. At that point the complainant has to go through the court system.
I think their server was overwhelmed
(It’s up now.)
It shows up fine for me.
Sort of about dressage; I can’t believe how many people are commenting on this vid saying she had such great balance when it is obvious she only stayed on because she was balancing on her hands and the horse kept bucking cos she was cranking on his mouth every time the he lept forward! I usually wouldn’t moan but everyone keeps saying how great she was to stay on and how balanced she looked…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4p2JyoptSI&feature=related
Well, if you buck like that, you do kind of deserve it if you get banged in the face. I do have to give her a lot of credit for her body position – she did do a good job of staying on!
Actually, that was extremely well ridden and it’s VERY VERY hard to pass judgment when all you SEE is 2 seconds of the horse BUCKING. Geeze lady, I’d like to see your “oh so soft” hands riding through a buck like that.
Okay, in all seriousness. What the hell with all the bucking dressage horses? I rode dressage about 20 years ago, and back then, if a horse bucked, it was clearly understood he wasn’t properly trained and needed to be taken back to basics until he was better suited to go forward. Today, I’m only really interested because my mom started riding at a barn that does a lot of dressage. ALL those horses buck. ALL THE FRIGGIN TIME. Every single one of them. The ones going in their first training shows and the big fancy ones doing kurs. They all buck. I never, ever rode a horse that bucked. You learned to keep your horse a little happier than that! You turned him out, or you lunged him, or you fixed your saddle or your bridle or your training or your hands but you DID NOT BUCK DURING A DRESSAGE TEST. Or even while training for one. What the hell? What is the point of calling it “dressage” if your horse is an untrained sack of shit that bucks you off if he thinks he can get away with it? Isn’t the whole point of dressage supposed to be fostering a better relationship between horse and rider? A horse that willingly, even joyfully, submits? How is that in any way compatible with bucking?
What kind of horses did you ride 20 years ago? Solid field hunters who were on 24/7 turnout?
Lots of these warmbloods are fed rocket fuel and not turned out. Then they are expected to play nice and “submit” to their rider. They aren’t always on board with that! Sometimes they’re young, or confused by rider input. Sometimes it’s because a show environment is too much for them.
My dressage mare bucks, sometimes, and we just realized it’s because her saddle wasn’t fitting right (+ rider error on the canter depart). So we’re fixing that. My trainer’s Grand Prix schoolmaster has been known to unload a rider who pisses him off. And it’s not because he’s mean, or doesn’t want to work – he gets frustrated by conflicting signals and eventually, he’s had enough!
I don’t think that a bucking horse signifies bad dressage training. Setting aside the pain issue, it might just be a bad day. Or yeah, maybe he’s not ready to be a a show yet. But sometimes you can’t tell until you get there!
I think you’re working with a rather small sample… If your mom is starting dressage at a barn where “everything bucks,” I’d suggest she stops and starts looking for another place with a better trainer. It’s easy to draw an incorrect generalization from a very small sample size – most dressage horses I know are not “buckers.”
I have noticed that too. Our show horses are not turned out during show season, either.. and obviously not at shows, but they certainly don’t buck in the show ring. Is it a difference in training, pre-work, or breed? If I have a horse who tends to be fresh at a show he will get a lunge and/or a pre-work early in the day before showing. If he tends to be very girthy he will get a little lunge every single time he is saddled. The idea is to set the horse up for success so that he NEVER learns how to be naughty under saddle.
This. A horse should never learn to buck under saddle. I’ve started horses from scratch without a single buck. It’s not necessary.
Why should a dressage horse be held to a lower standard of conduct than a hunter? That’s a little backwards. Yes, my off the track TB event horse was “solid.” So were the flashy imported Hanoverians I mostly worked with. There’s no reason a horse has to be “hot hot hot” or fed “rocket fuel” to do dressage.
I was taught that a saddle problem should be fixed immediately, not ignored over a period of time because the horse bucks any time the rider makes an error anyway. I was also taught that calling a horse a “schoolmaster” doesn’t mean you should allow an inexperienced rider to drive a sensitive horse to the point of frustration. Put the rider on another horse until she’s able to benefit from the better one without torturing it.
Did you know if you look up “Klimke buck” you get zero matches on youtube? Try it with “Anky buck.” Then go watch Klimke walk his horse out of the ring on a loose rein, or take one hand off the reins to wave during a series of lead changes every stride. That’s what I grew up believing dressage should look like. Less frame and headset and waving of the front feet, please, and more HORSEMANSHIP.
The best way to fix a lame horse? Sell it!
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/grd/1919566951.html
Well, gee….maybe a veterinarian would be able to figure out what’s wrong with her? Wonder why it didn’t occur to her to actually call a vet? She wants to sell a lame, unregistered horse for $750.00 ? Yeah right.
Also, a video that explains rollkur: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UwqyMCr_7c&feature=related
I did not know that it was linked to arthritis at the poll. Sounds very painful to me! And, if I may say so myself… borderline abusive. Knowingly causing years of inescapable pain is no favor to the horse.
Every time I hear the expression, “evading the bit,” I think pain — I don’t blame a horse for evading pain. And when I see those videos with the tail wringing, I think, “pain and irritation,” especially when the tail switches in response to each spurring. And when I watch dressage (or hear about trainers who tie their horses heads to the side), I think of those old carriage horses with tight check reins used to force a fashionable head position — and think of how painful and sore that would make the horse feel.
I do not find dressage beautiful to watch. The horse is beatiful; the tack and outfits are stylish and attractive; I can admire the skill and the ability of the horse and rider to communicate and perform, but the frothing mouths, tail switching and tight collection just make me uncomfortable and disturbed. Yes, I know all of you experts and aficionados will talk about achieving balance and collection, but it doesn’t look natural to me. I feel the same way about the Western Pleasure and the Big Lick TWHs — ugh.
I know abuse happens in all areas of horsemanship, but I just find, from my own observer’s viewpoint, that the freer-action sports show off the beauty of a horse and its movement. Jumping, Cutting, Horse Racing… they have their own problems but the horse is not held in (what I consider to be) an unnatural body position. And there is nothing cuter than a happy little cart horse trotting along.
Laciefan:
If you want to see the results of dressage done right, that is, maximizing the natural potential of the horse through a long process of thoughtful education, conditioning and bonding, I urge you to watch the videos of Dr. Reiner Klimke and Ahlerich. That’s a happy horse – look at his ears and expression. He had a naturally expressive swishy tail, not unlike the great jumper Nautical. That’s not a “wringing” tail.
Actually, the “frothing mouth” is a good thing. I know some grooms give the horse sugar before it enters the ring to make even MORE froth — and copper on a bit is also a froth-maker — but a horse that is happily working the bit will make the froth without any help.
I use a KK Ultra with the nugget in the middle of the snaffle (so it actually has two joints rather than the single), and my OTTB is a flecked mess after we trail ride, which usually means we aren’t doing much if any “dressage.”
The thing to remember about “dressage” is, the word itself means TRAINING. To my mind, that means starting with the basics (the bottom two “rungs” of the training pyramid: rhythm and relaxation) and working upward, not by running up the scale but by working slowly. I am still surprised that the rule now in FEI competition is that a Grand Prix level horse has to be a minimum of EIGHT years old, which to me is STILL far too young to expect a horse to have moved up the levels without any mental meltdowns. Taking one’s time and going back for review should be part of the “training,” too.
I watched Conrad Schumacher at a California Dressage Symposium maybe eight years ago taking upper level riders through their paces, with most of them returning to simple things like halt, halt-walk-halt transitions, etc.–the “baby stuff.” He was showing them and those of us in the audience that if one cannot do those basic movements well, one really shouldn’t be schooling any faster or higher. Some of them were insulted, but they EACH rode much better after the first day because he had made them work on areas where there were holes in their training.
Schumaker loves this stallion, and I do too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9sKBHmuaS0
I remain skeptical. I have heard that a wet mouth is a good thing, but how do we really know? Some of these ideas get passed down without any real science behind them. A horse in the wild doesn’t froth — clearly because it doesn’t have anything in its mouth — but neither do horses in many other areas of equine pursuits. Just because trainers have passed down that nugget for decades or more doesn’t make it true. Doesn’t make it false, either.
That recent Swedish study,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19027332
showed a high incidence of oral ulcers caused by bits. It would be interesting to have a study that could measure the difference in mouth damage, or even a study that shows pain responses, in horses who froth a lot. I’m not saying you’re not right, I’m just skeptical. And my reasoning is that if the bit hurts the horse’s mouth, the horse will be moving it around to try to get comfortable, with the resulting frothy spit. Also, it seems (again I may be wrong) like the frothy mouths are always on horses heavily bitted or on horses being hauled on, like the occasional frothy-mouthed race horse whose jockey is pulling mightily to get it to slow down.
While it’s true that other disciplines don’t have horses “frothing” at all times, I suspect the reason is that in dressage, we are seeking contact. Contact between the horse’s mouth and the rider’s hand/arms. A steady contact with a horse actively “going to” the bit should lead to a salivating mouth.
My own anecdotal evidence seems to bear this out. My lease mare can be reallyreallyreally tense. When she’s unhappy, she clenches her teeth on the bit and wants to stay above contact (and it feels that her back is like a board). Sure, I could pull and yank, and maybe she’d arch her neck and look pretty, but she’d still be evading contact, this time behind the bit.
When she relaxes, she loosens her jaw and we get “lipstick” on the bit. Chewing the bit out of the riders hands on a loose rein is one of the hallmarks of a horse actively seeking contact and working over the back. There’s a reason the “stretchy trot circle” is in Training and 1st Level tests.
She’s kind of the Darth Vader of dressage – lots of talent and skills but was lured by the Dark Side!
Dressage, more than other disciplines, is supposed to be about working within the nature of the horse. The balance of relaxation and energy is extremely difficult. It used to be one of the things that made it harder to succeed with gadgets and shortcuts. How very sad that judges have become blinded by horses with artificial “brilliance” and have sacrificed the very nature of dressage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svOBsSdjUvU&feature=related
“How long do you hyperflex your horse?” And Anky completely dodges the question for a couple minutes. The person asks again, very directly. Anky gets snotty.
If you’re going to do something, you need to be able to stand behind what you do. If you are going to compete internationally and be famous at something and do something, you need to be able to stand behind it and withstand the scrutiny of the worst kind of conspiracy theory assholes. If you are dodging questions it’s because you KNOW what you are doing is WRONG. Usually the people who jump and scream “I’m getting a lawyer and suing you!” are the ones who know they are doing something wrong but think by doing nothing they look more guilty.
If this is the kind of crap it takes to compete at the upper levels I’ll stay in my amateur box, thank you.
Oh, that video is rich.
I agree, a lot of dodging, snottiness (‘maybe you should come to the clinic so you can understand better?’ Pretty sure she’s seen you ride before, Anky, everyone has, and that’s why she’s asking the question!).
Some of the last comments are the best. “I don’t know how long I ride hyperflexion” , “Time flies when you’re having fun” (“Fun” to Anky is hauling on your horse’s face?) , “The horse is much stronger than me, horses won’t do something they don’t want to”? Well, they certainly will do what they can to try to avoid pain. The horse will put his nose to his chest to try to avoid the pain of you cranking on his mouth.
It’s amazing that she can say the horse is happy and his ears are forward? um, Anky, I think you have it backwards. when you’re on the horse, and the ears are facing you as the rider, that means they are pinned!
I thought that was great. “His ears are forward” and I’m sitting here going “No they aren’t.” She’s a what level rider and can’t tell the difference between forward and listening ears?
wow. All I could think watching that was Black Beauty ..where they talked about how horrific the bearing reins were – how they shortened the horse’s life, constricted their breathing and cause dMAJOR health issues….
And yet, over 100 years later, we STILL use those techniques. Shame, huh?
Not in Europe we don’t it is only in the American continent that check reins are used.
YES! I thought of that too, when I read Dr. Deb’s article about the horrible things we do to horses’ vertebrae to simulate collection.
That reminds me of an idea I had once: I think there should be a new movie like black beauty, but instead have a horse that has to endure and witness all the shitty training methods in horse sport today. It would get it out into the public eye and really raise awareness.
I too thought about that book & the bearing rein. Of course not just for this discussion, but all having to do with pulling the horses’ heads down – for any discipline.
“No, it’s not the same thing!”
Oops, that’s right – the bearing rein pulled their heads UP way beyond normal, now we pull them DOWN beyond normal – totally different….sure….(sarcasm).
This is OT but here is a CL ad that I couldn’t stop myself from answering.
http://annarbor.craigslist.org/grd/1921136730.html
Now, here is the exchange that took place. Names have been changed to protect the innocent.
we dont want people that are going to cause trouble so please do not reply back
— On Thu, 8/26/10, Barnkitty wrote:
From: Barnkitty>
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: Horse boarding – $260 (New Boston)
To: “Marie Dormal”
Date: Thursday, August 26, 2010, 8:09 PM
oh you mean the stalls don’t get cleaned daily…hmmm…ok.
—– Original Message —–
From: Marie Dormal
To: Barnkitty
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 7:59 PM
Subject: [SPAM] Re: Horse boarding – $260 (New Boston)
As well as costing more to pay someone for turning the horses out cleaning the stalls and the extra saw dust.
— On Thu, 8/26/10, Barnkitty wrote:
From: Barnkittyt>
Subject: Horse boarding – $260 (New Boston)
To: sale-st3y9-1921136730@craigslist.org
Date: Thursday, August 26, 2010, 7:51 PM
** CRAIGSLIST ADVISORY — AVOID SCAMS BY DEALING LOCALLY
** Avoid: wiring money, cross-border deals, work-at-home
** Beware: cashier checks, money orders, escrow, shipping
** More Info: http://www.craigslist.org/about/scams.html
why is it more for daily turn out? seems like it would be the other way around what with the cost of shavings and all.
—
OK this is Barnkitty again, not CL ad.
Is it just me or is that f’ed up?
And way to go fugs for outing Anky again. I hate Hate HATE Rollkur. I searched the NYT archives for a pic I saw a few years ago of her and her horse in the worst set of contortions you can imagine that appeared in that paper. She and Sjef or their goons must have made it go away.
Oh, boo-fucking-hoo. You made your rollkur bed, Anky, now lie in it and STFU.
I will give her this, though: She is a better rider than Linda Parelli.
My only real dressage experience (I’ve never competed, Just worked training dressage horses for about two years) we had to have each and every horse going softly and lightly in a plain bridle with no noseband AT ALL before the owner would even think about letting us use a double bridle ect. The doubles we used for shows had no crank noseband in sight, and we were told to make 100% sure we could fit our fingers between the horses jaw and the noseband when it was done up.
I think the idea of forcing a horses head to a point where it can barely breath is terrible.. Such a shame to see a sport which should be about working in harmony with the animals we love turned into “force it to do what we want for more money”
I found something that a lot of you may find interesting to look through.
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/schrijer.php
it has a bunch of articles about Sjef and their trainer explaining their method. There is some theory that makes sense and that is in more classical type theory too, BUT I hardly see ANY of it reflected in the way the horses and riders go. There is also a lot of evidence that disproves their theories against some of the classical ones. He says horses trained too far back on the haunches have more things wrong with them than horses trained his way- that is bullshit, unless all he looked at were overworked horses trained too early and pushed too hard and had no recovery time during a training session at all. You can train a horse any way, even the right way, and by pushing and asking too much at once still injure your horse.
I think schooling and training should always have balance and variety. I train very back and fourth when I’m schooling, and I’m nowhere NEAR a master, but I think it works very well. If I do 5 or 10 minutes of collected work, then I’ll work my horse long and low at the walk and trot for 5 or 10 minutes with lots of impulsion, and then a brief free walk. and as a warm up I’ll alternate between working deep (which includes both ends of the horse) for a few seconds and then 10 seconds long and low, and then relax it, but never for more a few circles each way per session.
I never haul on his face to get him to do it, I ask softly until he yeilds, then I release and he’ll hold himself there for a moment before I ask him to stretch long and low again. and once we finish warming up I’ll do a free walk and then proceed with regular work. In my opinion, It’s never necessary to do an exercise of any type for more than 10 minutes, if that. I find my horse gets bored and crabby, doing the same thing over and over again or any exercise for more than a few minutes. And he is the same type of horse that people like they are use.
Anky finally getting what coming THANK GOD. Ive thought she was a monster for years.but it had to be a slow process when she first started wining she did an amzing job to the less wel educated it looked good. It is only relatively recently that we became aware of her terrible training techniques and even more recently that actual scientific proof became mainstream showing without doubt that rolkur damages the horse. It all has to become very public before anything can be done infortunately. Im sure she justified it for years because she won gold …more than once… so more people followed her so more became public….just think maybe if she wasnt so succcesful we may never have found out about her rotten training…
Breaks my heart to see riders riding rolkur…painful…not just in dressage bt all dsiciplines…thank gosh public awareness is growing and people are learning you dont have to do it this way.
Can anyone confirm the rumour that Anky is reserve for the dutch reining team??? i just read it in a WEG article
OT: I found this really interesting story about a horse. http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/jul/10/still-hot-to-trot/ apparently this horse if 42 and stll going strong, now that’s something to show to those people who think a horse is usless come age 15.
Also, I hate Rolkur I don’t see the need for pulling a horses head into an unnatural position like that. It looks stupid and I don’t think anyone would want to have to move around with their head like that.
Shakes head…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2c0TldTAjM&feature=player_embedded#!
What’s wrong with that poor baby’s belly!???
***SIGH*** I’m sticking to trail riding for fun…..I’m happy, my horse is happy and we enjoy each other’s company and nature without the all-might $$$ and ribbons to motivate us! I’m not a dressage person either, although I took several lessons to help develop my seat and enjoyed them on a quiet high level (can’t remember how high) horse. He was very patient and willing and was obviously well-trained.
People that do this sort of crap (rollkur, crank-n-yank, etc.) and get away with it is the reason I gave up enjoying watching WP events at shows. Seriously, I’ll get up and walk out of the stands before WP starts. Makes me sick to watch what they do now. I remember way back in the late 70′s and early 80′s (as a kid) watching my cousin compete at State level and win in 4H in WP. Her horse moved happily and looked like a pleasure to ride. I wanted to do that too! So, years later, I got my kids into 4H and was appauled at how much the WP classes had changed! No longer did the horses look happy and fun to ride, but cranky and in pain at every hop-skippy, lame-looking move! My kids have been games riders for years and enjoy it, but within the last few years they are showing interest in hunter-on-the-flat classes and showing our miniature horses more and more. The western saddles are starting to gather dust in the tack room while the english saddles and harnesses and carts are getting polished up and used constantly.
I was in a pondering way last night and stuck on the rolkur thing. I thought to my self really arent you just building up a resistance to some seriously harsh bits and then with their faces tucked all the way to their chest theres no more give so whats to keep them from just charging? If you think about it they are some pretty honest horses to not charge through the bit and run around doing as they please since they have now been trained to withstand the pain for hours, see around with their heads pulled into an odd place, and had their muscles built up to the point they can do finite maneuverers with ease. These horses that do this and dont kill their owners/trainers/handlers are saints and deserve retirement fitting of a king.
Just a thought, after thinking about it
OK, I am getting a little miffed over here. I use a crank noseband, but it is not “crankedâ€, in fact you can get 1.5 fingers through the noseband without a problem and 2 fingers vertically (same vertical with the noseband) through the flash. I like that the nosebands are over padded and for nowadays, it is difficult to find a really nice bridle without one, I just paid a FORTUNE for a really nice bridle for my TB to not have a crank, just a regular soft double raised with flash (also padded) noseband.
Now, off soapbox, I do not like Rollkur, I do not like Anky, but I do understand the tail swishing a bit. My guy swishes his tail when you ask for a change in stride or transition, always have even on the lunge line, is he unhappy, no. His ears are either pricked and at attention, or listening (back, not pinned and flicking back and forth between pricked and attention), but he is a very happy horse that has been trained correctly. I will say that before I start to really get into riding, in warm up, I will ask the horse to bend left towards my knee then bend right (standing still). Once the horse releases, I release and we go about our business, no rollkur, no ldr, just asking the horse to release its jaw and bend around my leg to check for balance on both sides (a very good way to see if your horse has a sore back).
What I don’t like is watching younger riders at horse shows basically having a lesson in warm-up with the trainer taking up half the ring and doing nothing while the person is pulling away at the horse, or warming up so long that you can tell the horse is exhausted, if its that hard to ride, try lungeing and staying away from showing until you can handle the hot horse. I have one now, I walk for 20 mins while he checks everything out, then start the warm-up, sometimes it takes 30 minutes, sometimes an hour, but if I think it will be longer I will scratch the horse as it isn’t ready for that show.
My current crank bridle:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FSS-German-GREY-Comfort-Dressage-CRANK-Bridle-REINS-COB-/280426182795?pt=UK_Horse_Wear_Equipment
Brainbleach, anyone ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nma49Olznvo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mj6UKAj3Vo&feature=related
I`d love to see Anky compete in a Bosal !
))
Yes, I´ve read about him, he´s just great!!!!
It´s really scary what kind of bits some riders use in jumping competitions… :-X
(And no, I´m not against bits at all!!)
PS: He is really, really brave to pull something like this!!! There are so many old-fashioned people in riding. :-/
Not criticizing.. but a bosal is a very severe piece of equipment. Just because there is no bit does not make it inherently kind or soft. That being said, I would imagine that Anky surely would not be successful with a bosal because the severity of it dictates that the rider have impeccable timing, soft hands, ands give a huge release at just the right moment. If someone were to try to pull a horse’s face in with hands low and wide, the horse would most likely end up flipped over and on the ground.
I wanted to add that this gentleman must be a seriously talented horseman to have his horse moving forward willingly over fences in a bosal. He also must have perfect timing and very soft hands.
You’re right – that’s why it’s integral to the training of a “bridle” horse.
But that guy has AMAAAAZING hands.
Whenever I see a horseman of that caliber, I envy whoever he’s dating.
Wait did I just type that???
LOL
Thanks for posting that. So wonderful to see how relaxed that jumping is — no rushing, no yanking. A guy we knew in Mexico just tried a bitless bridle on his extremely talented monster with the mouth of iron. They all laughed at first, but that horse doesn’t rush as much anymore, and both he and rider are calmer and happier. Whatever works, I tell you! Thought you might also enjoy these photos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyVgKTb60XI&feature=related
Cheesy, a few slightly ribby horses and no helmets, but it is Russia and they are Tekes. I’m just amazed by the legs and the riding position jumping bareback and without bridle. I’d be all over the place. Let’s be honest, I probably won’t even be on the horse.
Whenever I see people riding, especially bareback in tiny skirts of bikinis, I always wonder…doesn’t horse hair get…in places? Uncomfortable places? D:
Possible responses:
1. In Russia, uncomfortable places get in horse hair O_O (I can make Russian jokes, I’m Bulgarian
2. Gives you an incentive to keep an extra good seat with very little friction?
3. Inspires you to give your horse show grooming all day, every day, for several hours before riding?
I say this all as a devoted addict of the bareback bum on my nicely worn, strategically dust-colored breeches, knowing that if I ever tried the filmy gown it would probably get caught in something, either leading to an embarrassing moment or me being trampled to death. These people are clearly more evolved.
:-0
Akhal Tekes! Maaaaaan, they are the most beautiful horses!
YESYESYESYESYES.
THAT is a happy horse!! I wish a fine moving, relaxed horse like that could make it in the Western arena, because … he looks like a BLAST to ride. WHY is it so revolutionary, if the horse is well-trained, relaxed & focused enough for it? I know that a lot of jumpers are HOTHOTHOT, but this guy is super good-natured, interested, and in tune with his rider.
One of the western trainers on RFD TV trains his horse the same way just without the froth and gaping mouth. I watched his demonstration in Kansas city and he rode his horse overflexed the entire time. The horse has learned to give as much as possible to keep pressure off his mouth. But his tail lashes and his neck is bulging with the effort. I’m sure since it is western training they don’t call it rollkur but to this woman’s eyes there wasn’t any difference.
It is sad that when I first started watching him years ago when he was young and new he didn’t ride his horses like that. They were flexed at the poll just as pretty as can be. Now it is just a travesty. I won’t be following his method in that way.
O.K. Curiosity is getting the better of me – which western trainer is it?
OK, this isn’t really Anky related, but I was wandering thru YouTube and found some “equine spills” vids, many related to higher level jumping and eventing. And all I can say is…no wonder these people fell off! OMG! The flapping hands! The waving arms! The total lack of seat! The yanking on the mouth!! AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
My personal fave though is the one taken head on at a steeplechase…all the horses make it over, but they leave behind them about 2/3 of their jockeys!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n11MiV7dC6E&feature=related
I’ve ridden a horse in a crank noseband precisely ONCE. A hard-mouthed hunter who would not quit leaning on the bit. He was ridden in the crank for only two weeks, then dialed down to a ‘standard’ padded flash. Hopefully we can eventually take the flash attachment off…but honestly, it’s far better than him being in a curb.
At least, I assume that’s what he’s trying to tell me by being relaxed, on the bit, forward and not taking off. He actually seemed to LIKE the crank.
But I would never use a crank on my own…this was under a trainer’s supervision…and yes, far too hard to find a nice bridle without one these days. Sigh.
A part of me hates the FuglyBlog “pile-on” and yet, Anky and Rollkur and the devolution of dressage into a parody of itself is just hurtful. I googled up a YouTube video of Moorlands Totilas, supposedly the most amazing dressage stallion in the world…and his extensions are false! His hind end is so strung out he actually trips during a test. And that’s what the top echelon of dressage rewards: horses with tense, set jaws attached to tight shortened necks broken at the third vertebrae, frames that do not lengthen but instead resort to “toe-flipping” to achieve “brilliance”, never mind a riding style that is 180 degrees from “soft, invisible, intuitive”.
It is simply bizarre, in the same way the first time one sees a Big Lick walking horse, or peanut-roller Western Pleasure class. Artificial to the core.
And anyone who has watched more than a few dressage tests has seen it all: the wringing (NOT swishing) tails, jaws so tense a horse squeaks as his teeth grind, drooling foam to the knees, riders leaning backwards and curb shanks at 45 degree angles to the jaw with boots and spurs thump thump thumping the horse’s sides, tense, tense, tense, tense, TENSE!
It’s not really a “pile-on” for me. It’s an “oh yeah” moment. I think “FUCKING FINALLY”! Finally, someone has actually gotten the gonads to take on at least one of the self-centered pinheads who are abusing horses in the name of winning in a discipline. For me, it’s more of a cheer leading moment than a mob response.
Not sure if you got the latest on Trina:
Prosecutors: Southern California horse dealer deceived customers by painting, drugging horses
Published August 27, 2010
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/27/prosecutors-s-calif-horse-dealer-deceived-customers-painting-drugging-horses/
I do not ride dressage but my trainer has drilled it into my head that no matter what the discipline, it’s ALWAYS twice as much leg to hand. I can now get my horse ‘on the bit’ and ‘into a frame’ without double bridles, long-@ssed spurs, or the rollkur method of Anky. Shame on all professionals who take short cuts that compromise the health and well-being of the horse.
It’s Anky VAN Grunsven Cathy, if you’re going to write about dressage riders then GET IT RIGHT.
Otherwise stick to the quarterhorses …
She used the German equivalent which sounds exactly the same. Dressage Queen much?
Hey,
)
we´re proud she is NOT from Germayn!
Ehm, it´s spelled “Germany”, of course….
Cattypex-
I too really like that video of Quick Silver Bey……in fact I liked it enough to have approached his rider/trainer about taking on my young horse. That is until I saw her “schooling†young horses at Region 5 Arab Sporthorse show. I was walking my youngster around so he could see the show grounds and watched her tie a horse’s head to its chest with draw reins, not side reins, and longe him for 45 minutes, pick fights with him for no reason, and then ride him for another 45 minutes. On the longe line he was so far behind the bit it was painful to watch. The owner of the horse was on the rail asking questions about if the horse was okay or not, and the trainer kept making spectacularly manipulative statements like “not every owner would understand why I do this†and “I am so glad you understand what this horse needs†when clearly the owner did not understand at all, and indeed was questioning the need to tie his head well behind level and longe him for 45 minutes. I then saw her work another horse for almost 2 hours. I am not kidding…….I timed her. When she admired my young horse and asked me about him I was polite and that was it and I have never called her again. I think she has been hanging out with the “arab†crowd too long. I can say that…..I own and show arabs but I would never show them again rather than subject them to that.
That is SO SAD. That horse is soooo pretty, and so universally correct in many ways, but in that latest video he did seem to have the beginnings of wariness of the bit. I thought maybe it was just one of those days, but your story makes me want to weep. I love various breeds, but I’m beginning to hate almost all breed shows at this rate!!
I had a friend in HS, like in the mid 80s, who had a supernice Polish gelding (he was a stallion when she got him, got that taken care of quick) and she rode “dressage.”
That is, she wore a pretty shadbelly and top hat, and put a dressage saddle on her horse…. but…. um…. yeah. To her, it was “riding a pattern.” I’m sure that the AQHA dressage will become that way….
What IS it with breed people screwing up performance disciplines!?!!????!?!?! There’s a great sociology thesis in there, whether you’re talking about dogs or horses.
On a happier note, it looks like Lynn Palm is really advancing her dressage education and doing pretty decently at it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9br5LWcz1BU
As a lower level dressage rider who aspires to go all the way to GP eventually, naturally I have been educating myself on ‘all things dressage’ ever since I became interested in the discipline. Rollkur was of course on of the first things I stumbled across, although it was not something I heard of from trainers (mainly because my first trainer was only at the barn I was at for a week, then my new trainer was a hunter and did her best but did not know too much on dressage despite being an excellent rider and trainer), and I gained knowledge from the net.
After viewing both sides and many educational videos on YouTube, I formed my opinion firmly against it. It was clearly damaging and uncomfortable for the horses. Yet I felt to a lesser degree, it could be useful as a stretching exercise during warm up, but not for extended time. As in not used to put the horse “in frame”, which is never accomplished through muscling them down with your hands anyhow, but to flex, stretch and loosen the muscles.
After all, riding like that for most of or the entire ride does nothing at all. It’s counterproductive. You want a light, soft and flexible horse, and you don’t get that by keeping a death grip on them and restricting them.
Do I practice it? No. I never have. It’s not necessary, really. There are plenty of other methods to get my horse stretched and loosened up through the neck, shoulders, and body. Certainly less stressful for him. They work for us, and we use them. I don’t intend to ever use it either. He’s talented and smart, and he honestly does best when I do nothing at all really but keep my position correct. He absolutely knows his job and what I want from him. Perhaps that’s just us, I don’t know.
What’s that parable? If you pick up some sand, and hold your hand flat, it will stay there. But if you clench it in your fist, it falls out. That applies to horses so much, in my opinion. If you try to control too much and keep them pinned up in a ride, restricted, you lose them. If you let them go and ALLOW, they are so much more likely to do what you want.
I remind myself everyday, lest I ever forget that dressage is not about fancy movements, attire or tack. It’s about mutual respect, trust and harmony. Quality training in other words, and a horse that is in tune with his rider’s body and signals. A happy horse who is treated fair and good by his rider that loves his rider will do just about anything for them. I could go on, of course.
Never get me started on such subjects.
What ever happend to the head being on the verticle? I always thought being hyperflexed or behind the bit was a no no in the dressage world.? I have ridden dressage but not big time and use it for training but never wanted or desired for a horse to travel like that. I camt imagine the the pressure on the cervical vertebrea. Why do ppl keep rewarding such atrosities? Its like the Big Lick TWHs when they first appeared. ITS NOT PRETTY !!!
What is it about these well knowned so called trainers that are high in the ranking that come up with such insane and cruel practices of training and riding.?