OK, carriage horse industry
Jul 19 2010
If you don’t want to look bad, get these asshats off the streets!
An alert reader snagged this from a friend’s Facebook album and did a bit of detective work. Thanks to the name proudly displayed on the carriage, we can see that this emaciated Belgian is being used by the Old South Carriage Company in Charleston, South Carolina.
Old South owner David J. C. Compton seems very proud of his company on his web site. Do you suppose he ever looks at the actual horses he owns?  You are not supposed to be able to see the entire outline of their pelvis and hip bones, David. You know, if you owned a taxi company, you’d need to know that your vehicles are not supposed be blowing black smoke, right? So if you own a carriage company, aren’t you supposed to know that this isn’t a horse in “operating condition?”
And don’t tell me he had a hard weekend or had just been sick, David. I wasn’t born last night and neither were my readers.
Oh, and by the way, we all know how to Google and Google revealed this FASCINATING report of your horses and their condition and the fact that you got cited just last year and told to clean up your act:
Holy Crap just retire the poor things already!
Clearly, they were just trying to run away and find better homes!
It’s a shame I have to work today, David, or I’d be posting that link to all the “vacation tours” sites you’re hawking your services on. But I bet some of my readers aren’t so busy! Have fun, folks. David, quit the carriage biz and open a taxi company – at least those won’t suffer when you don’t do the recommended maintenance or forget to put gas in them.
122 comments to “OK, carriage horse industry”
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Their tag line on the website says “Look for the Red Sash, our symbol of quality”
More honest advertising would be “Look for the juttling hip bones and ribcage, our symbol of neglect”
I have been in the commercial carriage industry since 1987 as a driver, and then as an owner/driver. Two years ago there was another operator one county away that had a drug and alcohol problem, as well as numerous financial and legal issues. Her horses were in horrifying shape and she had several incidents that somehow avoided police reports or media attention. Once she even worked all evening and left the horses in the trailer in a bar parking lot when she got done and went in for cocktails. The poor things were still in the trailer the next morning. She was a POS. I was in constant fear she would have a high publicity wreck or incident, and her horses needed to be sent to a home that would actually feed and care for them.
I did virtually the unthinkable for a carriage operator. I called PETA, and ARFF (Animal Rights Foundation of Florida). I gave PETA addresses where the horses were, what times and locations she worked, and any other information they asked for. Animal Control had been called numerous times, but they complained they could never find her (BS!!). PETA took my info, but ARFF never even returned my messages or emails. Nothing was ever done by anyone. We all watched on in horror as she continued to operate. One night she she was in my county and poached my downtown corner (I am the only one who has a valid city business license for street rides in this city) and she had a runaway. I hadn’t worked downtown in months, and my phone was blowing up the next morning with calls from people wondering what had happened. By the grace of God I was able to prove I had nothing to do with the incident! She was operating without insurance, business license, or even a valid driver’s license. We called the cities she was working for and they didn’t care. She was never put out of business by any legal or government entity. She just finally got so broke and doped out that she quit.
There are many good legitmate carriage operators and drivers out there. We are the ones that take better care of our horses than we do ourselves or our families. It’s horribly sad when other operators can’t even get the bad ones shut down. My horses worked two to four days a month and the rest of the time they were used for pleasure driving, riding, and showing. My main horse was also a certified police horse, a halter and ladies-to-drive blue ribbon winner, carriage horse, and my best friend. It was not about the money for me, it was for the love of my horse and the pleasure of giving people a wonderful and unique equestrian experience.
Anyone who takes out a horse that is lame, too old, skinny, sick, improperly shod, not adequately trained, poorly harnessed, or overburdened, is not a legitimate operator and should not be in the carriage business. When the money is more important than the animals, it’s time to do us and the horses a favor and get the hell outta the business. We don’t need you!!
OK, you’re awesome. You probably want to stay anonymous but I’m kind of sorry because I WANT to promote your business! At least you TRIED to do something, which is far more than most people will lift a finger to do.
Are you in St. Augustine? They had an incident last year that made me wonder. Most of the horses there are in very good shape but I hate how inconsiderate the drivers are even though he horse carriages have their own area. I wish I was a cop in that town because I’d stand in front of the carriage stop all day long and ticket every moron that cuts off the carriages.
No, I’m waaay farther south than St. Augustine. I’ve been there before because like Charleston and NYC it’s kind of a mecca for carriage drivers…some impressed me, and a couple were pathetic. Depends on the company, which is even more obvious when ten rigs are sitting in a line and there are several different owners. People spend a lot of money on a ride, and they will pick the one with the horse that their kids think is the prettiest, or which ever driver they think is the nicest. It sure doesn’t pay to have dirty old carriages, sad looking horses and a*hole drivers when the guy’s rig ten feet away is first class.
I had a 23 year old Belgian/Haflinger cross who could do my 30 minute ride in 17 minutes. He was a driving machine! (My Clyde was so slow it took him 32 minutes for that ride!) That old boy had a work ethic like no horse I’ve ever seen. He only liked being downtown. If you did a special event or a party with him in a quiet area with no traffic, he came unhinged. Even at his age, he was 100% sound, weighed just what he should, and was fit enough to work all day. None of the customers could believe he was in his 20s. He’s retired now and almost blind, but if you harness him up around the barn he comes to life and gets up in the bridle just like the old days. I would have never in a million years harnessed him up and gone to work with him looking like this horse in the picture. I wonder if they just got that horse from a sale, he’s ancient, has medical or teeth issues, or just isn’t getting enough food. I won’t take one off the property if they come in skinny or have bad feet. It’s not worth it even if the horse is up to the job. It flat out looks bad and makes the company look like they don’t give a damn.
By the way, I AM a police officer. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve wanted to jump off my rig, write ten tickets to some jerk, then find a reason to arrest them. I was just telling my Amish trainer that when people tailgate my carriage and then cut me off when passing because I slowed their life down by a whole THIRTY SECONDS, I feel sorry for them. They must be so pathetic and miserable that being delayed by that tiny amount of time over the course of their entire life makes them soooo ANGRY! I can’t figure out any other reason for it! I drive to lower my blood pressure, and if I raise theirs, too bad so sad. My horse seconds that opinion
I agree. I have no clue what drives people to madness over 30 seconds or two minutes. Carriage or car. I rather be late then never. But maybe as animal lovers we understand patience goes along way and don’t need ‘instant’ gratification?
At any rate, do work Orlando or the East Coast?
I happen to have worked in the carriage industry in Saint Augustine, Florida and yes, the horses are WELL, ABOVE AND BEYOND CARED FOR BY THE COMPANIES … AT least up and until about December 25, 2007. I don’t know what condition they are in now. Everybody has their own cheesy opinions though. But, for working horses everywhere they have bad days and they get sick. None of the ones I saw in Saint Augustine were bony or emancipated. Yes, there are idiots out in the world though…. like the ones who walk up and stick their hands, arms and faces in the horses mouth or face!!! Yes, some of the drivers are also dumb as a box of horse turds and I don’t need to call any names (those folks usually know who they are !!! LOL!!! But over all I’d have to say the animals I worked with down there, were over all clean, well fed and groomed, and HAD QUICK AND SPEEDY LICENSED VETERNARIANS (not just the know it all 18 & 20 year old PUNKS!! ). Some people only care about a dollar in their hand and don’t deserve to be allowed around ANY HORSE ANY WHERE!!!!! I know carriage drivers like that… greedy is the only word!!!
OH MY GOD!!! Just saw the boniest, slowest, slowest, sack of bones I have ever seen in the City of Saint Augustine!!! What a disgrace!!! Times sure have changed and so has the condition of the horses!!! I really don’t know who looked worse the driver or the horse or the carriage!!!! What a site for sore eyes!!! Whew!
Neglectful carriage operators should be forced to rest their horses and operate rickshaws themselves in the interim to avoid interruption of services!
I like how you think!
Awesome!
I second this! Hear hear!
I second the motion. All in favor say eeh aww!!!
As someone who loves her new part time job as a carriage tour driver (which has my own horses living in the lap of luxury)…I challenge other carriage company drivers to report these horses both to your taxi board (or whoever YOUR regulating agency is) as well as to your metro/county animal control officers. Our AC & taxi board take skinny/lame horse reports seriously and will pull anything that doesn’t look healthy off the streets for 30 days. Plus, each horse must have a 6-month health certificate before it can work on the street, and it must be kept UTD for the length of the time the horse is working. Our metro board has an EXTENSIVE document of all the regulations we must follow for our working horses, from the way in which they must be shod, to required vet care, to the length of work day they are allowed to put in. The horse I drive, and all the horses belonging to this company, look fabulous – in fact, 2 are a little fat IMO – and if they weren’t loved and taken care of, I would not drive for them. It is true, sadly, that some companies see their horses as vehicles to use hard and fast and replace once they are worn out — but that can be said for horse owners in MANY industries – look at racehorses, futurity QH’s, etc. But there again, I see it as an industry in which reform MUST begin WITHIN – one bad apple makes us all look bad. We also take that seriously – believe me, we don’t want to see another company’s horses look like hell lined up next to ours.
What is the name of the company you work for? I would love to be able to spread the word and say “there is a place that takes care of their animals… use them”. So often, that is not the case…
If I had time I’d post a bunch of pictures I have of happy carriage horses in excellent condition…in Prague. If a former Communist country can do it right, nobody in the US has *any* excuse. (Actually, Prague is a pretty rich city, mostly from the tourist trade…so they have a strong incentive to keep those horses healthy).
I agree. When I was in Eastern Europe the carriage-trade horses all looked great, their country counterparts not so much. However, did you notice that alot of them tend to drive doubles, whereas here in the states I have only seen singles.
Yes, they were all doubles. All stocky cob/vanner types…nice horses in good condition, clean harness and carriages.
I agree! We visited Prague in April and I was impressed with the condition of the carriage horses. They even wear special shoes that are fitted to the cobblestones of Prague streets so they cannot slip. I was glad to see the horses in such good shape – nothing ruins the vibe of a place like seeing animals badly cared for.
I’m all for giving older horses a job if that’s what they need to stay happy and healthy but the report doesn’t make any of the Old South horses sound happy or healthy. If I was a tourist I’d be patronizing the operators with the healthy looking horses and I’d make damn sure I told the other operator why I chose someone different. Maybe that would be an incentive for Old South to shape up?
I think the problem is a lot of tourists are not horsey folk so they won’t realize that a horse is unfit for work. Most can’t tell if a horse is skinny, lame, or sick; and many people if they notice something is “off,” either don’t care or think it must be fine because the horses are still working.
I’d love to see more education of the public about how to tell if a horse is healthy (NOT crazy ranting like the PETA-folks, but actual, sound education).
I agree. I’ve blogged before about how to find a GOOD trail riding establishment.
http://fuglyblog.com/?p=498
A lot of the information in that entry would also help those trying to pick a carriage ride company!
I can’t speak for this carraiage company, but I do know a few owners in NYC. Those horses are NOT ill-treated. Folks need to leave them alone. I have been on the rides, they are no more then glorified pony rides albeit in a carraige. I have been in the stables, yes they are different then what people are generally use too and no, there is no grassy fields. Hello, this is NYC! However, the horses do get rotated out to L.I. and PA. for some R&R. As far as traffic accidents, yes there has been a handful over the decades, but you find many a horse more killed in rural settings where they get loose, etc..
I’ve watched a lot of this NYC carriage driver’s videos. I think it’s great he’s showing how the horses really live and are treated. You can tell he is super frustrated with the PETA-folks. http://www.youtube.com/user/StopLiesSeeTruth
Maybe so, but I’m a horseperson who spent seventeen years in Manhattan, and it’s way too hot in the summer to work horses up on 59th Street, where they wait for fares in front of the Plaza Hotel. The horses don’t look underfed but the conditions they live in are way too stressful…intense traffic, intense heat, badly-ventilated stables, crazy motorists, poor-quality food, drivers who don’t recognize lameness, really bad dehydration, you name it. Horses periodically collapse in the heat in Manhattan. It takes a lot to bring a horse to its knees, too, as we all know.
That’s pretty much how I feel. I know how *I* feel after a day in Manhattan in the summertime, and that’s with many breaks inside air conditioned buildings and plenty of iced coffee. It just isn’t a great horsey work environment, no matter how well you treat them.
Central Park, okay. But not on the streets with the traffic.
They use the streets to get to and from their stables, except for weddings. Much like people do to get from their homes to work along the same streets. Yes, the city can be hot in the summer, try being in SWFL. Manhatten is a cakewalk. Badly ventalated stables? Last I was there they were cooler then out on the street with fans going like heck. Horses periodically collapse from heat stress everywhere. Most humans don’t get pulled off the job if temps get to high or to low, these horses do.
You say low-quality food yet say they are not underweight? Have you noticed all carry buckets of oats attached to the bottom of the carriage for between ride snacks.
Crazy motorists? Are they only confined to Manhatten along these horses route? Sweet Jesus they are EVERYWHERE too!
Dehydrated? There are water troughs in several places along their route. Police horses have to drink too! Lets not forget them.
I thank God everyday that while I was growing up in NYC, horses were readily available to a horse-crazy kid, even if under less then someone elses “ideal” conditions.
Sad thing is in inner “Philly” where horses were and still are being kept are being cracked down on. Freemont park was a source of ‘informal” racing. I am sure we can find something to gripe about in any city, any town, any state or any country. Lets never forget many a kid had their life changed around due to exposure to horses, ideal or otherwise.
Look at the hang-dog look on that poor horse’s face… so sad.
WHOA Nellie! This is awful, and as a tourist I would never patronize a business that doesn’t care for its animals & equipment. Huzzahs to everybody who has influence in this sphere who can improve these horse’s lot.
That being said, please please PLEASE, everyone, do not equate “the carriage industry” (ie tourist rides) with “the carriage world” which especially includes Combined Driving Events, Horse Driving Trials, Arena Driving Trials, and the wonderful 4-in-hands who will be in the world’s spotlight at the World Equestrian Games in Kentucky in October. Please.
I am proud to be part of the carriage driving world, American Driving Society, Carriage Association of America, and Arizona Driving Society. People who love this sport take excellent care of their equines, spend deeply, volunteer lots, and have a heck of a good time. For you eventers out there, a CDE is the driving equivalent of a Three-Day Event with dressage, a cones course, and marathon with hazards. There are routine vet checks of the participants, and most finish the events in as good or better shape than they started.
For all of us, ahem, ‘birthday challenged’, Combined Driving is the fastest growing equine sport, and has the highest percentage of older participants, AND all of the Singles competing in Europe at this very moment all all over 60 (the drivers, not the horses).
I seem unable to attach a link, but Google up Youtube Gladstone Driving and/or Hazards and/or Combined Driving and have a look at the fun.
I agree – combined driving is way cool. And I don’t think anyone is likely to confuse sleazy carriage ride operations with properly kept driving horses, any more than they are going to confuse the pony rides with a good lesson barn.
Point taken, FHOTD. Yet the word “carriage” jumped out at me when I scanned your new entry this morning and for a split second I was hoping it was a good thing having to do with CDEs, then I read carefully. I am glad to note that here in wine country in the PNW we see a lovely barnyard of Belgians who are beautifully cared for, and give tours of the local wineries, and do Christmas lights in the winter. Thank goodness there are more goodies than baddies (I hope).
Watch your email for a short video you might enjoy…..title “Comanche”
OT: But for those of you who enjoy hearing about the VLC, I migrated his blog over to WordPress and updated.
http://verylargecolt.wordpress.com/
What a shame. Be nice if the crazy anti-animal-owning protesters went and bugged THEM for a change.
I went on a carriage ride in Vancouver a few years ago. Actually, it was more like a BUS than a carriage, but it had been rigged up so that, when empty, even though the thing probably weighed hundreds of pounds, it could be pushed with a finger. The horses were happy and healthy and loving the attention (especially from the little ones). They were well groomed and shiny, with beautifully feathered hooves and soft manes and tails, and were given 5 minutes or so to rest after hills (the carriage driver took advantage of this to answer questions, talk about the city, tell us about the horses, etc.), and were given plenty of time to rest between rides. It wouldn’t take a genius to glance at these guys and say “Those horses are living the good life.”
And of course, my dad went back a few months later for business related stuff, and there was some crazy animal-rights group (one of these ones that thinks just owning animals as pets is immoral) protesting the use of horses on the roads (the tours were restricted to the scenic routes where there is very little traffic), and how the manure left behind was “bad for the environment” (you do realize wild animals take a crap wherever they damn well please, right? Pretty sure a dozen horses aren’t going to make that much of an impact in the long run), talking about how “stressed” they were by the cars (yes, I’m sure the giant marshmallows that are more concerned with snuffling the little kids for more carrots and kisses than the occassional car going by are really “stressed”), and how “damaging” the exhaust from the cars was (because car exhaust is so much more damaging to horses than it is to humans? Besides the fact that, again, they were kept on the scenic route with very little traffic, not right in the city), and how the concrete wears down their hooves too fast (um, yeah, that’s why they wear HORSE SHOES. You know, those metal semi-circular things attached to their feet? They aren’t just for throwing, they have an actual purpose.) and blah blah blah. My dad brought some pamphelts that they had forced on him back for me, and I just laughed at the whole thing, it was so ridiculous. If anything, they should be protesting these asshats who let bone-bags pull their carriages, not the ones that are obviously well looked after and enjoying their jobs.
I was in Charleston for a few days last week, and saw lots of carriage horses. I didn’t see any that were in poor weight, and all looked like they were working comfortably despite the high temperatures – they were going at a slow pace, and none were wringing sweat. However, I did see a lot of really nasty hoof cracks – long, vertical cracks more than 1/8″ wide, a couple inches long. Really really funky feet. I didn’t get a picture but anyone with two eyes in their head that knows what a healthy hoof looks like will not have any problem spotting these – and it wasn’t just one or two horses. I’d say that really crappy feet were the norm. >:(
**sigh** This is the very same company that I got into trouble years ago for one of their drivers beating their horse across the face with a driving whip. I was 16 and spending the weekend there with my family when I saw this, and like a dumb teenager, I got in between him and the horse and started screaming for the police. I had just started work with a shelter/horse rescue about 6 months prior, and I couldn’t bear seeing another abused animal without doing SOMETHING. Naturally, I got a firm talking-to by my parents and the cops, but was commended for stepping up to stop it. I’m a lot older now, and I’d do the same thing again if I saw it. I’ve been involved in horse rescue for 11 years now, and I have no problem blowing the whistle.
A good friend of mine runs a carriage business that I often assist her with, and her #1 priority is her horses’ health and safety. She has no problem declining a job if it has the possibility of jeopardizing her horse, and she’s has a flawless safety record because of it.
Um, I don’t think that was a dumb teenager action, I think that was really freaking admirable!
Only dumb in that you might have been risking your own safety. But I think it’s GREAT you said something!
LOL! Well, thank you. I realized after the fact that he could have seriously hurt me had I not surprised him like I did, but I saw a horse in danger and all I could think about was my babies back home. My “momma mare” kicked in and I was ready to go to war to stop this asshat from hurting this horse another second. I actually had my parents half-convinced for us to take the gelding home, but the rescue group that took him found him a gorgeous forever home where he lived out the rest of his day as a lawn mower.
I find the report to be highly questionable – since when is “sweating only under the harness” to be a problem? In light work, my horses normally only sweat under the tack – they sweat in other areas when the workload increases or it is excessively hot outside (and one of mine is a Belgian). And a number of males had “swollen sheaths” the inspector attributed to GI problems? Sounds like it’s time for a round of sheath cleaning, to me. And a mare was written up for being “narrow based” and “cow-hocked” – since when is a carriage operator responsible for the overall conformation of an animal? Yes, you should pay attention to the way her hooves are wearing, but her faults sound more like a product of genetics than negligence. And “assymetry of eyes”? Again, I don’t see how a genetic problem becomes the fault of the owner (and if the horse is not visually impaired, then who cares?)
Almost wonder if the inspector works for a pharmecutical company specializing in thyroid treatments, as having a cresty neck, sweating only under harness, drooling, etc. (noticed on different horses!) were all attributed to thyroid problems! And the ponies should be on high-fat diets? If anything, the drafts should be on high-fat diets to treat/prevent EPSM, which could account for the “shivers” in one horse and the slight lameness in another.
Too many things make me question the inspector more than the company for me to believe the detailed report. Anyone local enough (and equine-educated enough) to go visit?
Eh, I think it was just a very detailed report. I don’t see that sweating under the harness is cited as a problem. If you scroll down and look you can see what they cited as actual problems – i.e. horses 150 lbs. underweight.
“Only sweating under the harness” IS a problem here in the southeast, especially in the coastal areas. Most horses between late May and early October will be sweating just standing in their stalls due to the heat and humidity. You would expect a normal sweat pattern in a harnessed horse (i.e. between the hind legs, underside of neck, etc.) rather than just under the harness. I have a feeling the vet was concerned about anhydrosis which can be fatal under normal working conditions.
The cow-hocked is not a problem. Nearly every draft horse out there is cow-hocked compared to a riding horse. It’s actually seen as a desired thing as it helps them pull.
Narrow-based is a problem in any horse. The vet may have just made a note of it to remind others that this horse may be prone to lameness.
That is a really good point and if you read the notes, I saw that one horse was a non-sweater. I haven’t gone back to read the whole thing but maybe that was the horse?
I understand not sweating at all is a problem (I had a mare who suffered from it) – but sweating only under tack and not in other areas does not indicate anhydrosis – sounds like the animals had not yet been working hard (or in well-ventilated areas, the sweat had actually evaporated from the areas exposed to the air!)
If sweating or not sweating was a point of inspection, I would expect every horse to have a comment on it’s sweat-production status. Same with teeth & hoof care.
The only way to read the report is to assume every item mentioned is to be considered an “issue” that needs to be addressed. And the report is so flaky, I wouldn’t trust it. Or they really do have a stableful of horses plagued by allergies, thyroid problems and sensitive tummies!
“The only way to read the report is to assume every item mentioned is to be considered an “issue†that needs to be addressed.”
I dunno, that’s not how I read it. It looked to me like they were trying to make a note of anything that seemed off, however minor, either to help with diagnosis of more severe issues or so that there would be a paper trail if the problems grew worse in the future. They may have been trying to provide identifying details for the horses as well (old scars and the like). The action items are in the later pages of the report.
It’s scary how many easily treatable items were on the list – nearly every horse had one. Shell out for hooves and teeth and feed already!
That report seemed a little funny to me too, for the reasons you stated, plus speculation about allergies, etc.
Um, I was just in Charleston, I got back on Saturday and was staying in downtown. I saw a ton of carriage horses and mules and none of them look underweight. Actually a number of them look overweight to me. The paint horses especially had huge crests and looked very full figured.
Also many of them had the no-slip rubber shoes on, which make there feet look longer than they are from far away, but once you get close you can see that they are just wearing the street safe shoes.
Nothing that I saw indicated poor care or treatment of the Charleston carriage horses.
Love ya Fugs, but if you have time to blog about this, can’t you just copy and paste my story? I don’t want to see this mare die. You can count all her ribs, her skull has no meat on it, and she has the hip bones of a cow. She also still has her summer coat, and her paddock is in direct sunlight unless she goes under her little lean-to, but it’s still at least 100 in the shade. :/
Winter coat, scuseh.
I don’t recall getting your story, but post it yourself. That’s why we have comments
You don’t have to wait for me, you guys know I NEVER get through my e-mail completely and I miss stuff all the time.
THANK YOU for addressing this! My husband’s family lives in South Carolina and we have been to Charleston many times. This problem is rife in the Rainbow Row area, where a great deal of tourists visit. Almost ever carriage I have ever seen there has been towed by an underweight to downright-gaunt draft horse (sometimes two) that looks like he is ready to collapse in his traces. I called the city and complained and also made a huge scene once with a driver who was applying the whip a bit too heavily on a horse that was just bones. I haven’t been back for a few years and that’s one of the reasons why. I refuse to give tourism dollars to a city that permits it’s carriage companies to employ horses that are in such deplorable condition. I wanted my first romantic carriage ride ever to be in Charleston, but I took my money and hired a fat, happy, bright eyed and alert carriage horse in Paris, France instead!
I live in Charleston, and I have to say the problem with this company, Old South, is not a new one. They have been cited multiple times and had their tour license pulled as well. They are not, however, indicative of all the carriage horses here. Most are well cared for. Also, the carriage horses of one company are not representative of our city as a whole and it’s most certainly not fair to knock Charleston because of their poor behavior.
I do understand you reasoning, however, sometimes the best way to get your point across is to use a language everybody clearly understands and responds to: money. I made calls about this years ago when I first visited Charleston, and got nowhere but ignored. So I exercised my right to spend my hard earned money where I believe is best, and chose not to give that city any more of my dough until I saw changes. I have not been to Charleston for several years now, which I am disappointed over. I really enjoyed Charleston; it’s beautiful, the people are kind and friendly, and there’s almost always something interesting to see. Honestly, if somebody doesn’t mind seeing some horses that are way too skinny, it’s a wonderful place to visit. But after being vocal attempting to get help for these horses and essentially receiving no response, I saw little reason to spend my tourism dollars there. I realize taking my measly few hundred dollars a year away from their economy was likely not even a drop in the bucket, but it is what I could reasonably do in protest of the lack of care the horses were, and apparently are still, receiving.
There are two percherons where I board that give carriage rides in Old Sacramento, and they are in good weight and look very healthy and happy…
I think they could be boarded closer, and I think there is a “holding” area of some sorts for the carriage horses, but it seems the owner chooses to board them where they will have a little more room to be horses (by CA standards) when they are not working and he trailers them to work instead. He appears to rotate the work schedule so they get plenty of time off!
They are always very clean and happy looking!
Things must have gone downhill for this company since I lived in Charleston.
When I lived there, I was quite impressed with the tourist carriage companies. Unlike most cities, Charleston has some strict guidelines on how many times per day a horse can work, what temperatures a horse can work in, how many times per day a horse’s temperature must be taken and at what temperature they must be pulled from work for the rest of the day, etc. I never saw a horse that was underweight or appeared ill.
A friend of mine worked for a carriage business for quite some time. Their horses were very well cared for – after all they are the heart of the operation. His “retirees” lived life out in the back pasture, but would get pulled in for a “leisurely” drive around town or down the road occasionally. He would also use them to help train the younger ones coming up. He would do up to a 4 hitch. He also had different horses for different jobs – OTSTBD, belgians, draft crosses, QH, etc. It was really quite a business and the amount of time and money he had invested in his horses and equipment was amazing. It really is in their best interests to keep the horses healthy and happy. After knowing him, and his standards it’s hard to understand the picture and info you have today – it just doesn’t make sense to me at all, how they can treat those horses so poorly. However, there are those who use weight control as behavior control as well – an underweight, obviously lethargic horse is less likely to run away or act up. That just makes me sick.
On another driving note, here is a link to an article discussing the driving accident that happened at the 4th of July parade in IA. It seems one of the horses had to be euthanized. http://qctimes.com/news/local/article_7e02e780-935c-11df-ba02-001cc4c002e0.html The community has set up a charity for those injured by the incident. This really affected the whole small town and surrounding area.
Yeah, that was on the blog. Just go back to around July 4th and you will see it.
Yes, I am aware of the original post on the 4th – this link is to an update just reported in today’s paper. It discusses the police findings after they completed their investigation. I actually live in the area and there was some new information in the article than I had previously seen or heard, that’s why I thought I would share it.
OK, I didn’t read it yet – I will!
The one thing that just kills me is the sad, listless look in the horse’s eyes. What a life being underfed, overworked, undershod and living in a dusty, dark barn. It’s heartbreaking when horses get that ‘I don’t even care anymore’ look to them, as the Belgian in the picture has. Horses need to be horses most of the time and tolerate us some of the time. I love that look of understanding in my horses’ big, brown eyes. I expect a high level of respect from them but I repay them with plenty of food, affection, freedom and playtime. They’re servents and will go to their grave giving to us. Is it too much that ALL of us can’t thank them for their efforts? Carriage horses out in the public eye, not hiding in the back 40, and barely more than skin & bones. I would think that anyone who knows anything about animals would’ve hauled this moron in before now. This one strikes a nerve with me!
Hi Fugly, I’m a long time reader of your blog and figured if anyone can help get a horse the help she deserves, it’s you. I have a friend of about 7 years who has fallen on hard times in the past few years. This is especially showing when it comes to one of their horses, Sheree, a purebred Arab mare. I would guess Sheree to be about 300-450 pounds underweight. Said friend, who’s name I will not mention, can barely afford to feed himself and goes by the good ole boy belief that old horses are supposed to be skinny. Sheree is 25-26 years old, and my guess is she needs her teeth floated. Her winter coat is still in full blast even though it’s been in the upper 90′s, low hundreds. I’ve known this mare forever and fell in love at first sight – she loves to be in your pocket, give you kisses, and put her head in your arms. She has no bad habits and is an absolute doll, and was stunning in her former years. Now, she is ratty, starving, and full of wind knots. She has a beautiful full mane and tail that are being neglected, and though I try to brush her, her long, scraggly coat won’t come off. She also seems to be sore, she’s a little stiff in the hind, but she may just need her feet done. On the property where she lives, there are quite a few stallions so she is kept with their other mare, who is an extremely alpha personality pony who won’t let Sheree eat. She is my baby, and I don’t want them to give her to just anyone… she deserves a good quiet retirement as a pasture puff. My friend has roommates who see the horse starving on a daily basis… she is right outside their window. While she may be starving, I’ve noticed that they never go without alcohol or assorted drugs. So I beg you, PLEASE help me find a home before it is too late… We are located in Winchester, CA, and if you can find anyone who’s interested please have them shoot me an e-mail. I don’t want to see her starve to death and I don’t want to see her go to the meat man
I’m sorry I don’t have any pictures of her face, she’s a beautiful dark bay with a strip running up to her forehead, and the most loving and wise eyes I’ve seen on a horse. I’ve enclosed a few pictures for you, but it’s a lot worse IRL, a cell phone camera can only show so much. 
Sincerely,
Kaylha
YOU CAN REACH ME AT MOO8D@YAHOO.COM
I commend you for trying to find this horse a home, but how could you wait so long? This poor thing has obviously been suffering for MONTHS, if not YEARS. This type of thing doesn’t happen overnight.
And, if this was my friend, they wouldn’t continue to be for much longer. It is NEVER, EVER, under ANY circumstances OK to let a poor animal get to this condition… I don’t care what his situation is.
Just my 2 cents…
I’ve been gone out of state for nearly a year. I don’t own anything that could take a picture either, so I had to wait until opportunity arose and I could get a hold of a camera/cell phone. She has looked this way since I returned about four months ago. I had them worm her, and she looked better for a bit but she’s gone right back downhill.
Don’t shoot the messenger.
And another thing, he will continue to be my friend. He makes $600 a month between him and his mother, and still has other mouths to feed. His mother is ill, for the most part bed-bound, and he is only eighteen years old. There’s not much you can do in that situation. There aren’t a lot of people willing to rehab an old pasture puff, but there are many in line to snag her and ship her to Mexico. I admit, if she were mine, I would’ve given her a bullet by now, but he cannot afford the euth and you’re not allowed to destroy animals via firearms in this city, even if it is your own property.
It’s called humane euthanasia… period. NO EXCUSES!!
I agree. Why the hell for does he have any horses at all if he makes so little money?
I don’t think anyone else will be rushing to clean up this mess and you might have to notify authorities if you don’t want this animal to die. It’s tough tits, but if you care you’ll have to, is my guess.
The only reason he has them is because he knows their fate if he lets them go. It’s the mentality of most owners around here. All of his other animals are in prime condition, if not overweight. I called AC out to a place where there were about 40 mares and foals in a 40×20 paddock with one dead as a doornail, and they shrugged their shoulders and walked away because “they had food and water”.
SP, I’m tired of this. If you could read, his monthly salary about covers what it would cost to euth a horse, and it’d be another month before he had enough money for the knacker man to come around. He HAD money. It starts off like that for most. He got rid of all his other horses, because they could be retrained and were young enough to get their lives going. The other horses that are there are his boarders. Sheree and Gina (the pony) are his two personal horses. Gina is, in fact, overweight, and I’d wager she’s older than Sheree. He doesn’t have the money to float her, and I’m almost positive that’s where the problems are.
The authorities out here don’t give a shit. The reason I know we can’t use firearms? When I first started riding, the horse I learned on got smeared by a Mercedes. His intestines were coming out of his mouth, and he was still alive. AC was called, the police were called, and Red (the horse) waited one agonizing hour until he finally died himself, because AC refused to do shit, and the police refused to kill him by means of bullet because they “weren’t allowed to discharge firearms within city limits”. Where I live, it used to be BIG horse country, and there isn’t a damn thing you can do to get AC to do, even if you had a rabid dog gnawing your arm as you were on the phone with them. And the cops? They’re here to hinder, not help. I called them out on a domestic violence case because my best friend was getting the shit beat out of her by her dad. Took ‘em two hours to come out. But you can bet your sweet ass you’ll find them creepin around corners waiting to ticket you for not stopping fully.
I guess the logical question at this point is: can you just pay for a tooth floating if he’s your friend?
Lots of times the racetracks (if you have one near you) will have a guy who does it the old fashioned way. We just paid $60 a horse for traditional floating – in Los Angeles. They DO exist, you just have to find them.
I’m broke as all hell, but I’d pay. The problem is not just that, but keeping her on senior feed, beet pulp, and other supplements. Gina is fine to still eat regular old flakes. It’s kind of cyclical. I wager her best bet is to get out of there and into the hands of someone who knows how to rehab an old gal like her. I don’t really go over there, not only because of his douchebag roommates, but also because I’d starve before I’d let my animals go without. Could you perhaps post this as a main topic?
BTW, nasty, nasty. Doug Spink is gross. I lived in Marysville and he was the hot topic the entire time I lived there. Shame he didn’t kick the bucket like the dude in Enumclaw.
I can’t start posting starving horses that the owners want to keep as main topics. First of all, one horse is not exactly news. I could post 100 of those a day. They’re starving all over the damn place. Second of all, I disagree with allowing someone to keep horses they can’t afford. If you want to help the horse, hey, figure out how to make enough money to help the horse. I have four jobs so I am severely lacking in sympathy for anyone who wants strangers on the Internet to help them…if you want the horse to stay in the care of your friend, I can only recommend you hike down to Starbucks and get a 2nd job to pay for her expenses. Since you clearly do not want to turn your friend in to the authorities for starving her – that’s the only real solution.
I mean, my first question would have been: WHY DOES THIS PERSON HAVE HORSES IN THE CITY LIMITS? Sounds fishy, where are they located, Dodge City, 1881? Most places that bother to pass a no firearms ordinance are years past their no livestock in the city limits ordinance? Heroin shoot-out at the OK Corral? I bet you if you called out a vet and he saw the horrid conditions, he’d discount the blue juice…
And yes, she is/was a dark bay… her coat is sunbleached and gross due to lack of groceries.
Many years ago when I visited Charleston, I went on a carriage ride operated by this company. Before the ride started, patrons were allowed into the stables to look at the horses and pet them. While on the ride the horse pulling our carriage seemed to be in a good, working mindset. When one customer asked where the horses were wintered, the driver told us that they were always taken to a farm north of the city and rotated throughout the season to ensure that they did not sour. All horses had access to hay and water in their stalls, and two horses were pulled out of work in the hottest part of the afternoon due to their inability to sweat enough to cool them down. Of course, when I visited my knowledge of horses was minimal and I could only be described as a dumb kid. I am not defending the company by any means, but it is possible that the stables could have fallen under new management or ownership within the past few years. Obviously, if a horse has tumors and dental problems going untreated, there is something seriously wrong. It kills me to see the exploitation of animals for the monetary benefit of humans.
OT- I don’t know if you remember, Kathy, but a few months ago I asked you and another reader about becoming a vegetarian and if it would hinder my strength while riding in any way. I just wanted to let you know that I have been a vegetarian for two months now, feel absolutely fine when riding and working outside, and have dropped five pounds (not that I was obese before- The heaviest I was was somewhere around 130 lbs). I feel overall healthier, and do not miss any meat whatsoever.
You bet – there is absolutely nothing your body needs that cannot be obtained without eating animals. Glad to hear you are enjoying your new veggie life!
I am going to beg to differ. We were “made” to be omnivores. The most “unhealthy” looking people I have ever encountered were vegans. And I have met quite a few. They remind me of when Russia let some “horticulturists” come to the farm I worked at in the very early ’80′s. Those folks looked ghastly. And NO I am not comparing them to the overweight Amercians of today.
Sorry, folks “Beef, its whats for Dinner” is a grand slogan and one proudly displayed in this cowtown!
I’m a vegetarian, I’m almost 43, I’m a size 2 or 4, and I work full time and work five horses every day but Monday. I am pretty sure I’m not unhealthy looking, and I’m not overweight, unlike many Americans.
Beef does not have to be what’s for dinner. Meat substitutes provide just as much protein with far less fat and calories!
Guess we will have to agree to disagree! I can only go by those I’ve known to be vegans and what they look like and my love of a good very rare steak!
I can only hope you do not force a vegan diet on your cats though. Sorry canines (of which my fox are)and felines NEED meat protein.
First of all, I’m not a vegan. And no, my animals eat meat.
Cool, to many people force that diet on meat-eating animals much to the determent of thier health.
Sorry, I understand there is a difference of some sort between vegans and vegetarians.
I am not a vegetarian, I like my meat too much, although I raise most of my own.
You do NOT, categorically NOT, need meat to be healthy, it is purely a life choice.
Make sure you take lots of supplements, and watch your weight (you should not lose too much!) and you will be just fine.
My biggest problem is kicking dairy, which I believe (until I get my own Dexter) to be one of the cruelest industries we have.
Cruel, heartless and has a knock on (veal) cruel industry all of it’s own.
We cannot digest milk.
We are the only animal that even attempts to do so.
We can’t digest our own milk past three years old, what on earth ever gave us the idea that we could digest cows milk??
Well—I’ll agree with you about not needing meat to be healthy, to a point…. I think that if you’re a professional athlete, you need to have a little meat in your diet or your body really struggles. I was on a rowing team in college and we had 4 vegetarians on the team— 2 regular, and 2 vegan. They were very conscientious about what they ate and were under the care of a nutritionist, but ultimately they had to start supplementing with fish oil in order to stay on the team (one quit rather than compromise her beliefs, which I understand.) While we were all tired from pushing ourselves so hard, those four struggled ferociously against anemia, and three of them began to have serious joint problems before they supplemented. None of the non-vegetarians struggled like they did.
So, I agree— a vegetarian diet has no ill effects and is actually healthier for most people— unless you’re doing serious, serious exercise. But since that’s not really a problem for most of us, then the more vegetarians, the better! That way, there’s more steak for me
I think vegan IS really hard to do…as a vegetarian, you can still access a lot of great protein sources, like egg whites. So there’s no way on earth that being a vegetarian compromises your health or energy, unless you eat poorly, which ALWAYS compromises your health and energy.
Ok, this is what I don’t understand. How can you eat egg whites if you are a vegatarian? I agree eggs are just about the most perfect form of protein we can get. Just consumed 2 soft boiled ones myself before my rounds of barn duties. However they are still an animal product. Formed in the oviduct of the chicken and expelled out the vent. To me, thats the same as my saying I only eat meat, yet can eat the skin of a potato but not the potato itself. Just trying to find the logic.
Vegans do not eat animal products. Vegetarians do not eat animal products that result from an animal dying.
If you want to believe an egg is an animal, well then we’re smack into the whole abortion debate and that might be too much drama for even THIS site
Serious athletes need meat? Uuuuh, nope.
http://vegantriathlete.com/
http://www.brendanbrazier.com/
My husband is vegetarian (not a vegan, since he eats eggs, honey, and cheese). I am not vegetarian, but keep a “vegetarian kosher” kitchen for him
I’ll eat meat when we go out to eat. He is, like the subjects of the above websites, a triathlete. He’s anything but sickly looking.
Scott Jurek…
Teehee, I have the opposite problem! I’m an (almost) overweight vegetarian! (Not vegan) Maybe it’s all those starbucks I drink…
YES. Starbucks is TOTALLY my downfall too. I could live on caramel frappucinos. Hey, at least they’re only 250 cals for the big one if you ask for the light one with no whipped cream!
Poor old guy. Hope this brings out some rest and retirement for him.
Interesting on the follow-up article about the July 4th carriage wreck in Iowa. Nothing mentioned about one horse pulling off its bridle before they ran. That was reported by several people who saw it happen.
Yes, the report also says the the driver FELL off, whereas witness reports said taht he was off to fix the bridle without anyone attending the reins while he did so….
Wierdness, maybe its a cover-up xD
You’d be amazed how touchy the drivers get when you tell them that their horses are underweight and need a trim. There’s a company in Maine, Fantasy something (of course!) and the horse that was hitched up – I forget what the event was that I was but I seem to have it connected with the animal shelter for some reason (the horse was not there because of the event, it was a coincidence)- was skinny and tired with long toes. I tried to be subtle, asked how old the horse was (late teens), what he was being fed (I don’t know), how much does he work (I don’t know) in conversational tones. As soon as I said he looked underweight the driver got REALLY defensive, the horse is old, etc. I wonder how many drivers know about their horses?
In other news when I was in Boston a few years ago there was a driver for hire on the side of the road with a HUGE belgian. He was snoozing with a foot up – the horse was apparently on his break. He was in great shape and in great condition. He was in his early twenties and very happy. He did light work (as in light cart, mostly walking) four or five days a week and he was one of the more content horses I’ve seen. I didn’t catch the name of the company but the driver was very nice, was very casually affectionate with the horse and obviously cared about him a lot. Made me feel good that not ALL cart horses look like the ones you posted!
What is the deal with the layperson (assuming that since they refer to contacting a vet) thinking everything is caused by hypothyroidism (along with some other false statements)? It hasn’t even been proven to really exist in horses yet. Odd…
More on topic, that poor horse. No draft should be in that poor flesh that obviously from that angle. The public really needs more education on what a properly conditioned (not fat) horse looks like and get beyond “ooooo, what a pretty long mane!”
Anyways, sorry for spamming, but this reminds me…
When I lived in WA, I used to love going to downtown Seattle. There was a particular horse there I loved, a big grey gelding named either Sweet Pea or Sweet Pete. He was in perfect condition, well taken care of, and his carriage driver/owner obviously loved him very much. When they had no one on the carriage, they would stop every block or so so that everyone could come up and pet him. He also carried a giant bag of carrots he would give to the little kids to feed him. I’ve never seen a horse happier to do his job. However, there was another with a Belgian who looks about the same as you posted. While not emaciated, s/he was obviously very sore, if not lame. I told the carriage driver and she slapped the reins and trotted off. It saddens me when people see animals as property… you wouldn’t drive your car with a flat tire, why would you put a hurting horse out o the pavement?
Here are some lovely well cared for horses from Victoria, B.C. *gag* The carriage company is Tally Ho Tours, they have had these horses on the street for years, and hopefully they are dead now just so they don’t get abused by the little girls who drive them. I’ve overheard them complaining about the horses talking about how they don’t know why they’re tripping, they’re so stupid etc. The horses *do* have rubber shoes to give them more traction, but they are put on by people who don’t know anything about how to actually trim a hoof.
From tales I’ve heard, the company used to have one month long training sessions with new drivers, teaching them how to drive on the farms before letting them out. The drivers only drove one horse, etc. Now if the drivers are lucky they get four days training to learn how to drive a horse, fit a harness/carriage and tack up, learn all their routes, and learn all the history and spiels. Horse experience is knowing which end of the horse is which. That’s terrifying, they also have had many run aways with the younger horses, and keep bringing the horses out. There was one last year who ran away three times and wrecked two carriages in 10 days. The only reason they keep going is because nobody has been killed yet. I’ve e-mailed these pictures, video footage, etc. to the SPCA, FOA, and PETA, and have gotten no real responses. Occasionally the SPCA goes out to the farms, and two out of the three carriage company farms have FAILED the “test” which is food, water, and shelter for the horses. They then get a week to find some more hay/food for the horses and then they pass the test. Thats it.
Lovely.. I’m out buying a truck load of Equine Senior if my horse shows a hit of ribs in the sunlight.
Duke is 12 this year. Poor pony.
I went on vacation with my mom and grandmother to Victoria a couple years ago and I remember Duke. I’m pretty sure he was in much better condition back then, maybe a little ribby. I snuck him a few apples and gave him a kiss on the cheek.
Couple of things – for several years I ran an equestrian center that offered trail rides, lessons, and pony rides. Our horses took out no more than three, one hour trail rides in a day. We had both a leader and tail rider, with no more than four riders between us. The horses got the best of care, including chiro. They had Monday and Tuesday off. I knew those horses better than my family, and I’d match them with a good rider for them 99% of the time. If I made a mistake, we’d switch mounts. That said, it was STRESSFUL. Some people had sense, others did not, and you were always aware of just all that could go wrong. And our horses were sleek, shiny and in excellent weight, i.e., not dead heads. In all the years I was there I only had one rider fall off, however, the mare took a serious trip over a tree root, so it was just one of those things. Anyway, my point is, it can be done well, but it is difficult and requires a ton of resources and expertise and the willingness to put the horses first. And even with all our effort to preserve the horses’ sanity, one paint gelding would get fried by the end of summer. Luckily, the fall and winter were very quiet.
Second thing – I spend a lot of time in Charleston, and I am very familiar with all the companies. When I first arrived in South Carolina, Old South was one of the best. The horses always looked great. I’d recommend them to visitors who wanted to take a take a tour, because their horses had the best shoe jobs and the best flesh and coats. I went back to Charleston again last February after a comparatively long absence, and I was saddened to see that the Old South company had gone downhill. All of their horses and mules looked too thin, poorly shod. I, of course, went up to them to inform them I’d no longer be recommending them. I’m sure those companies could give a crap less but I make it my business to go around to each of them and give them verbal report cards. At the end of the day I decided that Palmetto Carriage Company now looked the best to me. The stalls were spotless, the animals were well shod, with quality hay and clean water in front of them, etc. I do wish their stalls were bigger, but everybody was in good weight and their coats looked good.
Thank you SO MUCH Fugs for addressing this issue. I am a resident of Charleston and have been advocating for the carriage horses here for some time.
For those of you that doubt the report, it was completed by a licensed veterinarian after MUCH protest from the carriage company owners. The saddest thing here…. Old South was not even the worst one! (p.s. Fugs I sent you an email on this a while back, can resend if you want a follow up) By far the worst case was Polo Carriage Company. I believe the full report can still be searched for in the Post and Courier’s website (local newspaper).
There are ongoing issues concerning the Charleston carriage horses. It is simply too hot here in the summer months for these drafts to be worked the way they are. Hoof and barn care are substandard for at least half the companies, and three companies are well known for putting malnourished, skinny ponies on the streets. It is also common for their drivers to be ill-trained and unable to handle emergency situations with the horses.
Again, thank you Fugs for bringing this issue to light! Charleston is a tourist area and they depend on the national opinion of the Holy City to keep the funds coming in….. if you don’t like what you see, write the Mayor (Joe Riley) and let him know you won’t visit a city that allows its four-legged tourist attractions to be treated so inhumanly to bolster its profits. rileyj@charleston-sc.gov
“Unlike most cities, Charleston has some strict guidelines on how many times per day a horse can work, what temperatures a horse can work in, how many times per day a horse’s temperature must be taken and at what temperature they must be pulled from work for the rest of the day, etc. I never saw a horse that was underweight or appeared ill.”
I agree with this and unfortunately this is sad as I, also, have spent several years living near Charleston (I’m back in Virginia now) and enjoyed the rich charm the Lowcountry has to offer. Most of the carriage horses Downtown near the Market are well kept and well treated, although a few could use a bit more attention from a farrier on a more weekly basis. I cannot say I NEVER saw a thin horse, as I have, but it’s to my understanding that after many complaints offenders are punished and the horses removed from sevice….this is usually what happens. It’s a pity Old South went downhill so fast, they used to be one of the best there. When we first arrived in South Carolina, I went straight to the carriage companys to apply since I’d had years of working with draft horses back in my home state of Washington (I used to show at the Washington Draft Horse Extravaganza in Monroe and at the big Sandpoint Idaho show…and showed the Belgians at the Kitsap County Fair for many years) and was told by EVERY SINGLE ONE that I was “over qualified” because they liked to teach their employees “their own way”….in otherwords they wanted non-horse college kids to mold their way so as not to have someone think that “their way” was wrong. While living in the Charleston area, I also had the chance to question local vets who were the ones that were used to monitor the draft horses at the companys. Most said they were not entirely pleased with some of the horse’s appearances, although all were not sick or mistreated in any other way, just underfed and unfortunately the companys involved usually managed to stay within the guidelines that are set and nothing can be done as long as they stay within the “rules”, no matter how close the borderline is pushed. Some have crossed the line and got their hand slapped, but no horses have “dropped in their traces” while on the streets of Charleston (as far as I know) due to neglect or abuse, so I’m hoping this does not reflect the assumption that all the carriage horses on Charleston’s streets are like this.
I wouldn’t jump the gun and say that “Old South has gone downhill” I was JUST (as in a couple days ago) staying in downtown Charleston and I saw fat horses and mules, I did not see one thin horse.
I’ll admit that the horse in the photo looks thin, but it’s just one photo from an odd angle, in fact the same angle I purposely try to take photo of myself at because it is VERY thinning. If there were additional photos of the horse from the side like the ones of Tally Ho above I’d be more likely to agree with you that he’s underweight. He may be underweight, he looks on the thin side, but one photo isn’t enough to tell, especially at that angle.
I’d be the first to sound off if I had seen underweight horses in Charleston, as I was very aggravated at the weight of the horses on a riding tour in Cozumel, and I left a review with the company saying as much…
I visited Malta (little island in the Mediterranean Sea) and their little carriage horses were tough, wiry, Arab-like animals. All were well-shod, clean, shiny, and well-fed. They pulled light carts through the tourist areas and worked hard, compared to US horses. Ask any driver and he would proudly brag about his horse. The local joke was that the drivers took better care of their horses than their wives!
My experience there made me wonder if perhaps these big draft animals with heavy carts are just not as well-suited to the work. Either way, I think our drivers could learn a lot from the Maltese.
Draft horses are built to pull plows and other farm equipment. That is one steady continuos dragging pull. The “heavy” vis-a-vis out there are quite light for any horse over 1500lbs. They also have wheels, which makes it much much lighter then a drag.
The problem with the companies is they are run by people who most likely are not horse men, and are facing harder and harder economical times. So they are cutting down on driver training, horse management, horse training, and switching to cheaper feeds. All of which are obviously reflected in the companies going downhill all over the continent.
Eight years ago a company had one month of training for people, a full time horse trainer who worked each horse in the company at least once a week for a tune up, a full time farm manager, a full time mechanic on the trucks, trailers, and carriages, a staff manager, a general manager, THEN the owners of the company.
Now they have the owners of the company, and a part time mechanic. The horse “trainers” are people who have been working for the company for longer then one year. Training is 5 shifts if they are lucky, usually 4. The trailer drivers are anybody who responds to the ads for part time work despite local laws about trucking licenses being mandatory for that much weight. The food is minimal, the farrier has been switched and switched to whomever will do it cheapest.
The amount of work for the drafts is not the problem, it’s the care of the animals which is.
Aha! There is the key difference. In Malta, the owner grooms, harnesses, cares for and feeds his own carriage horse. No big company, just a horse or two in a family that are treated as members of the family. No hired drivers or non-horse-people providing care. I suspect it is the same in most other countries.
If I was on the city council in a town that had carriage horses, I would not renew contracts from big companies that had complaints filed against them. I would look for “mom and pop” establishments or small family farms that had one or two carriages. A bunch of those would probably provide better care for their animals. In addition, if one gets in trouble, fire that one instead of losing all the carriages because one big company gets in trouble.
Make that “hint” of ribs
Whoa. The carriage horses in NYC are treated like crap. Talk about colic and standing stalls. Check out the Animals’ Angels video that was obtained from an undercover report on West Side Livery. NYC is in the midst of a heat wave, and yet the horses are suffering. No one from the city to advocate for them. The ASPCA (a volunteer “monitor”) does less than nothing and ignores all complaints. The Parks Department, which like the NYPD has enforcement authority, does nothing.
This may be the hottest July on record in NYC. By law, carriage horses are not to be worked when the actual temperature is 90 degrees or higher. There is no consideration for humidity. However, the drivers flatly ignore the temperature and take their horses out. The ASPCA, which is the only agency designated to monitor and take the temperature, is not there to do so. Under the ASPCA’s code of silence, the horses have it worse than ever and yet the industry just got a raise, despite the fact that for years drivers have been illegally overcharging by up to 400% of the legal fare.
There is no accountability whatsoever in New York City for the adequate care of these horses. The industry is literally able to get away with murder. Through a collaborative effort by the Coalition to Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages, Friends of Animals, and Equine Advocates, Bobby II–a former NYC carriage horse from West Side Livery–was rescued on June 25 from a kill auction in New Holland, Pennsylvania. He was identified by his hoof number, 2873.
http://www.equineadvocates.org/EquinesBlog/?p=1
Bobby was full of worms, had scarring from ill-fitting tack, bad teeth and the skittishness that one might expect from a life between the shafts of a carriage.
http://www.equineadvocates.org/EquinesBlog/?p=61
Finally, you can see him on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJzIlFQaTuU
This horse, possibly for the first time in his life, is able to play in the grass.
Ah, Smoothie… Do you have any real idea what you’re talking about besides what you read from FoA and PeTA?
I have been in 3 of the 5 carriage barns in New York City and all the horses live in lovely box stalls. They get turnout to Lancaster County, PA or upstate New York for AT LEAST 5 weeks out of the year (by law). The carriage drivers themselves changed the legislation to improve the lives of the carriage horses, even if the changes just made law what was already practice. Most carriage drivers sent their horses on far more than 5 weeks vacation a year… I know one driver that sends his horses on a 6 weeks in the city / 12 weeks on the farm rotation and many other carriage horses in New York are on turn out 4 months of the year or more. The New York Horse and Carriage Association pushed for the new legislation to raise fares because fares had not been raised in more than 20 years! When was the last time you paid the same amount for something as you did in 1987? It was a long overdue rate increase 1) to pay for the rising costs of horse ownership in this economy, 2) adjust for inflation and cost-of-living increases and 3) cut down on informal price gauging by some of the less scrupulous (but in need of money) drivers. The new legislation also mandates twice annual veterinary exams (something neither the Health Dept. nor the ASPCA advocated for). The ASPCA and the Health Department can drop in unannounced at any time to inspect the stables and drop in every couple of weeks… sometimes twice a day… to “inspect.” These horses are the most monitored equines on Earth… they are constantly in public view.
In the case of Billy/Bobby II… He came from West Side Livery, yes, but his owner is one of the few owners that does NOT belong to the New York Horse and Carriage Association and who does not “play by the rules” that the overwhelming majority of carriage operators do. The NYHCA has publicly outed and denounced Billy’s owner. The practice of sending a carriage horse to a kill auction is not condoned by the NYHCA or CONA (the Carriage Operators of North America). 99% of carriage owners would never contemplate that.
Billy was on his NYC-mandated TURNOUT on an Amish farm in Lancaster County. (So this business about Billy never seeing grass or space to run and roll is BS… emotional hype to solicit donations and vilify the entire industry.) The owner (who I agree is a scumbag) called the farm and informed them that Billy was to be retired; they did not need him in the city anymore. The Amish farmer was welcome to do what he wanted with Billy – keep him for himself and work him or find him another home or whatever. This was incredibly intentionally disingenous of Billy’s owner because most carriage horses start off as farm horses / buggy horses and then go to the city, rather than the other way around, because work in the city is much easier than work in the country (in the city horses work at the walk, not a road trot… Pulling a carriage is WAY easier than pulling a plow, and horses in the city are limited to 8 hour shifts, not plowing from sun up to sun down….). So the idea that a horse that had slowed down too much to work full time in NY was going to be good as an Amish work horse was stupid. Naturally, the Amish farmer took the horse to New Holland.
There is no record of Billy having worked in NYC before 2006. He is 18 years old. Obviously he did something else before then, and probably acquired the old scars in question on the farm long before he went to work in the city. I drive a carriage in Philadelphia, and I don’t know how many horses I have seen that came to us from the auction or horse dealer with all kinds of preexisting harness scars. People accuse us of causing them, but they had them from their lives BEFORE being carriage horses. Horses live a long time and go through many owners (usually). We don’t know when those harness marks that Equine Advocates is going on and on about came from, but I can tell you that they do NOT match any harness equipment in use on any commercial carriage horse, and the ONLY thing I have ever seen that even remotely resembled the wound that would cause the so-called “pearl necklace” scar is the infamous “Amish necklace” seen on some of the horribly abused Amish horses that have chains permanently affixed (and embedded) around their throatlatches. If that’s what it’s from, then it occurred before Billy went to work in NYC, in which case becoming a carriage horse was a *definite* step up the ladder for him.
Speaking of scars and harness sores… I have seen NYC carriage horses “naked” as it were, and I have never seen a harness sore on a working horse. Meanwhile, just a couple of weeks before, on the SAME broker lot that Billy was “rescued” from (that Another Chance for Horses monitors… they do a great job saving horses), there were THREE Belgian work horses who were emaciated, had poor farrier work, and had horrendous open collar sores. These were clearly farm horses being worked in this appalling condition until they were basically unable to work anymore and so sent to New Holland. Did Equine Advocates or the Friends of Animals bend over backwards to rescue those horses? No. Did they send out press releases? No. Did they pass around their pictures to everyone who would listen, crowing about chains abuse and the redemptive rescue and flight to freedom? Not a peep. Of course not. The parties that rescued Billy (and I am glad that they DID rescue him, although I would have taken out a loan to rescue him myself and NOT made him into the poster pony for the “Evil Carriage Industry”) were interested in him just because he was a NYC carriage horse. They’ve been waiting. HOPING for one of the rare bad guys to do something awful just to prove their point.
Meanwhile, how many thousands of Thoroughbreds and Quarter Horses and non-carriage draft horses have made that horrible trailer ride across the border?
I strongly recommend reading this article for a balanced perspective on the Billy story. (And yes, his REAL name is Billy. It’s been so long since Equine Advocates has had an ex-carriage horse to exploit that they’ve changed his name to Bobby II after the LAST NYC carriage horse they could get a hold of… YEARS ago…)
http://www.examiner.com/x-25445-Pet-Rescue-Examiner~y2010m7d8-The-Battle-of-the-New-York-carriage-horses?cid=email-this-article
Ah, TheDraftHorse,
First, I believe you are in Philadelphia? So yes, I know a little about the situation here in NYC, and if memory serves me correctly–then you don’t know that much about it.
The “new” law is nothing but more lies and nonsense as a means of duping the public, as always. Nor was this update to the law supported by any animal organizations, because it is the same old tired crap. Even though the mayor himself tried to spin it as “endorsed” by these groups.
The laws are published online for anyone who wants to take a look.
As for some of the sillier aspects, the horses need turnout. Daily. Not a five-week “vacation,” even if it were anything but a fantasy. By the way, the rescued horse now known as Bobby was on his “vacation” when he was purchased for a song at the New Holland kill auction.
Did you read the Fugly post about Charleston? Did you read the report from Charleston–how pathetic. Small stalls, a stable prone to colic? Now how do you think those horses tied up in cramped standing stalls must feel, in terms of GI distress?
LOL. Now you are saying the industry has “outed” Billy/Bobby’s owner. He’s a bad apple. right. Just as Spotty’s owner was another rotten apple from West Side Livery. (Spotty died in a gruesome accident in January 2006. Google it. The carriage driver nearly died, and was described by his family as a novice, and terrified of his out-of-control horse).
Lilly Rose O’Reilly (RIP, another former NYC carriage horse who lived out her final days at Central New England Equine Rescue) was also severely underweight and with sores from poorly fitting tack. Go figure.
No one wants to hear your excuses about why billy/bobby found himself down and out.
I thought that drafthorse’s response was very well thought out and full of details.
And I will say again, I was just in Charleston and I didn’t see one underweight horse, in fact I remember thinking to myself in regards to two separate paint horses while walking around, “Geez that Paint is so fat.” I was staying in downtown and walked around and went jogging several times over four days. I saw a ton of carriage horses and mules. There are many tour carriages running constantly all day and into the night. I even went down Market St twice where they pick up fairs and walked by all the standing carriages looking at the horses. I didn’t notice anything that concerned me about the horses.
The only thing I did see that I found irritating was a mini-horse that was being led around like a dog. I think it was a dwarf and its back legs seemed slightly deformed. For no reason that I could see, the handler started trotting the mini down the street and it looked like it was going to slip on the asphalt numerous times. I don’t know if the slipping was due to the road or it’s seemingly deformed legs or both.
That’s a hoot. You don’t have time to copy and paste something so that a horse can get out of a shitty situation, but you have all day to blog about someone who fucked a horse in the ass? I’ve seen you post so many times on starving horses, trying to help them out. I thought you were an advocate for the animals, but obviously I was wrong. Another case of not being able to read: AC won’t do shit. They’re worse out here than Snohomish county. We had four vicious, as in chase you into your house, dogs running loose. They said they couldn’t do anything. Hoarding situation with dead horses in the paddock? Nothing. Where they live, it’s on of the last farms left out here and they are surrounded by houses. Trust, AC has been called SEVERAL times. They always get people at her gate feeding her things. They don’t do shit. It’s not my job to foot their bill. I’m just another bleeding heart. I’m only 19 myself, and it’s far from realistic thinking that an 18 year old boy could run a household. It takes about 10 seconds to copy and paste, and maybe 30 or so to attach pictures.
That’s fucked up. Way to go, I thought I’d come here and try to get help, because I’ve seen you get a ton of horses rehabbed and adopted out. Tongue in cheek, but I guess your just here for the publicity aspect. If it ain’t big news, then it’s no news, eh?
Wait, wait, wait – you’re in SNOHOMISH COUNTY and saying you can’t get help from animal control?
Hey, send me the address, I’ll get A.C. out there this week. No problem.
And if they found someone who could afford to take her on, they’d let her go in a heartbeat. They had money, then his father figure had a severe stroke that left him unable to speak or walk, and with him went the money. His mother is still barely alive. He weighs about 130 himself. He tries, but it just won’t happen.
I also see you have time to argue about vegetarianism. How about peeling your ass off the boards and posting? It’ll take a lot less time, and you might actually make an impact.
If he is willing to surrender the mare, then send me the address she is at and I’ll work on finding a local rescue that can take her or provide euthanasia assistance but honestly, I’ll bet just about anything if I took a walk through their house, I could find stuff he could sell for enough money to afford euthanasia. Very few people are REALLY broke . Really broke means you no longer have ANY non necessary possessions, like jewelry, TV, computer, etc. If he’s REALLY broke, I am sure I can find a local rescue to assist.
Seriously Fugly, you’re my hero.
When I was in college, I took a job as a carriage driver. I did, however, refuse to work for any carriage company owner who did not take care of his horses and equipment. I’d seen horses whose hooves either needed trimming, or they needed their shoes renailed. Instead, I opted for the carriage company I chose: healthy horses with shiny coats, healthy hooves, days off from work, and a huge lush Bermuda pasture to hang out in (not to mention their high quality grain!) I had other horse folks come up to me after looking at the other carriage companies and tell me that our horses looked the best and were SO well taken care of!
I didn’t include a picture of the carriage company, but here was my horse:
No, I’m not in Snoho, but I was. Remember how AC didn’t do anything about the horse being dragged, not even trying to press charges? It’s like that here. We live in Winchester, CA, 92596. He is pretty broke as far as that goes. He has two TVs, a ps3, and a microwave. Those are their worldly possessions. Hell, they don’t even have air conditioning. I reckon it’s about 98 degrees inside all summer. To be honest, if I were authorities, I’d have the place condemned. The ceiling is caving in, there are pigeons in the air ducts, and though the hoard of dogs their old roomie had has gone, it smells pretty foul in there. I wouldn’t walk on their floors barefoot. They still get all their water from a well in the back pasture. This house/property is well over 100 years old.
If you can find a local rescue, I’ll give them the info.
Maybe you could help your friend by assisting with social services for the family? The entire situation sounds like they need a lot more than help with a starving horse.
Here’s one issue I have: just because you are poor, does not mean you have to live like a slob (is it messy, the reason you won’t walk on the floors barefoot?). Is there no section 8 housing in your area where these people could get a better place to live with government assistance?
I agree that this family should have no horses, AT ALL. What can be done to help your friends out of their desperate poverty? Social services, government assistance, education?
Carriage horse collapses in the heat in Quebec City on July 28/10 and is euthanized on the street.
http://www.oxfordreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2690695
Well, I have a very new and small carriage tour business. I have one poor old horse who “came with” the carriage I bought- I had to take him if I bought the carriage. Of course, I couldn’t leave him there, so I bought the carriage. I have had him since October 2009– he is still has yet to gain enough weight to “look good” so he has yet to pull anything. He is just enjoying his free time and getting an evening meal in addition to lots of grass.
I have another old mare (20 yo) who was given to me in May- if I hadn’t taken her, she was headed to the auction the next week. I have had her hitched after the vet said she was not severely underweight and that she needed to pull to help get her back into condition. My first Percheron LouLou (16 yo) came from an auction in October 2008 – for a total of 3- two mares and poor Barney. LouLou took about 6 months to fill back out. It was after I got her, that I started looking for a carriage. I found a carriage– and poor Barney exactly one year later.
Of course all of them have had vet care from the get-go since coming here. My vet told me that drafts take longer to gain back lost weight because they are so massive. She also said that horses in their late teens and early 20s take longer to “rebound” than younger horses. Once I get them all looking good, I plan to keep them that way. My vet told me that drafts should also get about 25% of their calories from fat- not protein or carbs. I went to Wal- Mart and bought an industrial-sized jug of corn oil.
My driving horses work only a half day once a month– unless someone wants us for a wedding — then they might work an additional half day. It’s true that they really seem to want to get out and “work.” They perk up if they see me fooling with the harness- only to be disappointed if all I’m going to do is clean it – again. The high humidity here is just perfect for mold and mildew, but it makes horses and people miserable.
I don’t see how people who use their horses daily for hire can not see that poor-looking horses are bad for their business. And, since the horse is the most expensive item after the carriage, I don’t understand why someone would work his or her horse to the point of killing it. Maybe the carriage compny owners hire people who are not experienced with horses? Not a good way to protect their investment.
I must be perfectly honest and say that as an experienced carriage driver. I would have been completely ashamed if any of the horses I drove in Saint Augustine, Florida looked the way these do!!!! PETA would have #@!%%. I realize that not every horse looks fit & fat but honestly these bony looking horses do not look good to me and certainly give the carriage industry bad public appeal. No carriage company should send bony animals like this out in public and they honestly should be retired or allowed pasture or something. This looks bad and I’m not going to snivel about it!!!! Only good looking sound animals should work for hire… RETIRE THESE POOR LOOKING CREATURES until their health improves tremendously!!! It makes me feel sooooooooooo bad to see this!!!!
If you want to see some good looking carriage horses visit Saint Augustine, Florida. There used to be 3 different companies down there and pretty much ALL OF THE HORSES IN ALL THREE COMPANIES were in ABOVE AVERAGE TO EXCELLENT CONDITION VISUALLY. Sick or older horses had TIME OFF!!!! It is now my understanding that the City of Saint Augustine, Florida is trying to take over and regulate the carriage horse industry down there soooo look out…. The City of Saint Augustine, Florida doesn’t know what Saint Augustine Transfer/Gamsey Carriges; Country Carriages knows about caring for horses!!! I certainly hope they don’t end up like these animals!!! Best regards!!! PUNKY!!!! HA!!! HA!!!!
I cannot find the story link, but some years ago (way more than ten. Probably twenty.) the owner of a carriage company in New Orleans was not caring for his animals, and one died on Bourbon Street. Tough as strippers, bouncers, and bartenders are, they were out kneeling in the streets putting ice in the horse’s mouths to try and help them, and would have given them mouth to mouth if it would have helped.
The judge in charge of the case that was brought ruled that the owner had to Shovel Manure for a period no less than three months in his own stables. Ha! It got filmed, too, wish I could show it to you. I looked for it for hours online, but no go.
The regulations changed, to no horses in the summer, only mules. If a mule gets too hot it sits down, but a horse will go on till it falls. Heat is too much for the horses.
I went to Italy in the summer and saw so many horses just like this!!! the owners/drivers would keep them out in the burning sunlight for the whole day!!! i just wanted to go sream at the drivers!! however sometimes you do see the odd carrige were the horse looks well cared for and the driver knolagable and fair, but these sights are getting rarer and rarer!!