Rare, speshul and starving…yet again!
Jul 08 2010
Amazing…their web site is still up. Here is a news story about the seizure.
Well, folks, here is the breeder trainwreck of the day – yet another bunch o’ wackjobs that believed they were “preservationists.” We’ve had the wackjob in Oregon whose Davenport Arabians are running loose on the highway looking for food, the other wackjob with the starving Shagya Arabians, and now we have THIS bunch o’ wackjobs (aka Audrey Ehrman and Howard Watrous) with a bunch of Rare and Speshul Raffles and Ferzon bred Arabians.
Pssst…those aren’t even rare. Dude, I can find those anywhere…usually for free…because, well, they tend to be little and they resemble Welsh ponies and these really super-linebred ones are typically not competitive in today’s show ring and nobody really wants them anymore except their little niche section of admirers, in much the same way that absinthe has its aficionados but most of us would rather have a Corona!
As one poster on ABN correctly noted, “I am always amazed when I read “We MUST preserve these rare lines…we can not afford to lose them” IF THEY ARE THAT RARE, why was the individual unable to sell them?” THANK YOU, SENSIBLE PERSON! GLAD TO SEE YOU EXIST! 
There were no such Sensible People at Living Death Arabians or whatever it is called. Instead, there were nitwits who stuck their heads in the sand and insisted they were providing a Great Service to the Arabian breed by continuing to make lots of little chunky fat-necked Arabs. Um, well, they were chunky and fat-necked at one time. Now they look like hell.
Thread on ABN. Good thread. LOTS more information. What a shocker, people knew horses had come out of there in poor condition years earlier. And, double shocker, locals in the Arabian world didn’t even know this farm existed. They weren’t showing. They weren’t doing anything with their horses. Could the pattern be more familiar?
Check out the sales list from the site. $7500 for some? Yeah, that’s why I scoff at Darlene’s friend saying how much her horses sold for, ’cause I know it’s crap. If anybody paid more than $500 for any of Darlene’s horses or these horses, they did it out of sympathy to get them out of the hell hole they were living in. Neither program was selling A system quality Arabians. Neither was capable of maintaining horses in even remotely decent condition for sale. People do not pay the big bucks for horses that are thin and have curling hooves, and I do not care WHAT their bloodlines are. You can reduce the value of any horse from six figures to zero merely by failing to care for it.
Of course, the twits think they are being persecuted unfairly. On one board, there is a whole conspiracy theory about how the horses were seized ONLY for hoof care and then the county deliberately starved them in order to make it look bad, or put them on some awful “refeeding” program that actually made them drop weight. Uh, yeah, and black helicopters from the government are chasing you, too, so put on your tinfoil hat. Good grief. I’ve said it before, the last thing any government agency wants is your horses. You have to REALLY eff up, BADLY, before anyone even considers taking your horses away. Every government entity on earth would MUCH RATHER have them be YOUR problem. Fact.
So another day, another breeder who wasn’t able to provide even basic care. I can’t put it any better than another ABN poster, who wrote the following:
“lets start with this premise:ARABIAN HORSES WILL NOT MAKE YOU RICH. You cannot breed yourself into the millionaires club. You cannot breed your way into some higher social class. The only guarantee you get in breeding Arabian horses is that it is gonna cost you LOTS of money. If you do not show, advertise and promote your horses how can you sell them? All this costs money. If you do not have a 1st class trainer how are you going to win? Again this costs money. Vet bills, farriers, feed, hay, bedding, barns, trucks trailers, tack, halters, lead ropes, brushes, water buckets..none of this stuff is cheap and all of it is necessary.”
AMEN! It IS necessary. If you are going to breed horses, you had better be ready to dig DEEP into your wallet for all of the above, and if you are not ready to do that, please, please, please, please, please DO NOT BREED HORSES. The horse world will NOT be forever harmed if YOU do not breed horses. The earth will still go around the sun, really. If some bloodline is that fricking amazing, then someone who DOES have money for all of the above-listed things WILL preserve it. If they don’t, MAYBE IT ISN’T THAT WONDERFUL.
All right – rant over. If you want to help one of these poor little skinny beasts, right now there is an auction scheduled for July 10th, but that may change. I suspect the best place to find the latest information is going to be that ABN thread, so keep an eye out there and post if you are interested in taking one or more. Also, here is Collin County’s Page about the auction. Whether they are trendy or show quality or whatever or not, they all deserve better than starvation followed by a slaughterhouse, and it would be super cool to see some “after” pictures and learn that some of you had decided to change a horse’s life for the better. And maybe some of these horses will find themselves truly special for the first time – as someone’s special, much loved horse who gets every single thing that they need.
156 comments to “Rare, speshul and starving…yet again!”
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I am finding it a little crazy that they are auctioning them off.
Obviously there is a chance they will go to some other nutty hoarder or a kill buyer. What is the point in seizing them, if you do not insure their safety afterwards?
There are several rules and conditions to keep them from going to kill. See the latest article below. It also gives a web site for updates – the sheriff’s office is NOT taking phone calls or other inquiries – all info is being sent out through the web site.
Also, it is reported in the ABN thread that there is a chance that the sale may be postponed due to appeals. Again, check the web site for the latest info.
By ED HOUSEWRIGHT / The Dallas Morning News
ehousewright@dallasnews.com
Collin County authorities plan to auction off 47 Arabian horses Saturday that were seized from a private owner last month because they were underfed.
NAN COULTER/Special Contributor
The Arabian horses were seized last month from Living Waters Arabians near Farmersville. The owner is upset by the auction and said the county misrepresented the horses’ condition.The 22 stallions and 25 mares range in age from about 2 to 10 years old, said Misty Brown, the county’s development services manager.The auction will be at noon Saturday, although the location has not been determined, Brown said.
People interested in bidding on the horses will be able to see them from 8 a.m. to noon Saturday, she said. The minimum bid is $250.
The Collin County website, http://www.co.collin.tx.us, will provide updated information about the auction, including the location. From the home page, click on County Directory, Animal Services, then on Estray Livestock Notices and Sales.
Any horses that aren’t sold will be turned over to rescue organizations or animal-advocacy groups, Brown said.
The horses were seized from Living Waters Arabians near Farmersville. The owner, Audrey Ehrman, said she was upset by the county’s action.
“I am as much a victim as the horses that have been victimized by this seizure,” Ehrman said. “There is so much ‘back story’ to this … but that is for the appeal process … .”
Ehrman took issue with photos of the horses that county officials shot during the seizure on June 9.
They are “badly taken and distorted photos designed to elicit pity and do not accurately portray the condition of the horses at seizure,” she said.
Brown declined to comment on Ehrman’s remarks.
Justice of the Peace Terry Douglas awarded custody of the horses to the county at a June 24 hearing, she said. He also fined Ehrman $22,000 to cover the county’s cost of caring for the horses, Brown said.
Word of the auction is spreading to local horse lovers.
Tanya Eastman, a volunteer with the Humane Society of North Texas, urges people to attend the auction and buy the horses. She bought four Arabians at a Denton County auction last year.
“They’re very loving,” Eastman said. “I want the horses to get good homes.”
eh… I really hate to make such a comment, but can those horses with the horrid rundown fetlocks and pasterns even be rehabbed? The only animals I’ve seen looking that bad, en mass, were some goats I knew who had been severely calcium and nutrient deprived as they grew. They weren’t salvageable.
The bay at 1:21 has my heart. I think it’s a broodmare, because of the belly, but it could be a stallion– I can’t tell if the thing hanging down is an udder or a sheath in that photo. Sad, huh? However, I’m not in Texas. I’m not even in the West. I’m also not employed, so no way in hell am I bidding on a horse at an auction. I avoid Shipshewana on Fridays like the plague right now. Sound familiar? Lots of people out there like me. Only we believe that owning horses means feeding them. Maybe these people are hard of hearing, and they get mixed up between the words Feed and Breed? It’s an easy mistake to make…… Not.
That website sends up a huge red flag. There are like… three pictures total of their horses, all of those are at liberty (to put it kindly). They have stolen or borrowed a couple of nice stallion piccies, but of course they are of famous stallions– most likely their herd sire’s great great great great great great great grandsire’s second cousin’s former roommate. Man, if you can’t wash your stallion’s mane and put a halter on him to photo him, why can you find the time to set up a website?
I worked for a vet for three years. She always laughed at the latest trend in large animal ownership. The last year I worked at the clinic, the hip thing was alpacas. She said, “If it eats, you can’t make money with it.”
22 stallions? I mean, really, TWENTY. TWO. STALLIONS???
FLRA you beat me to it — I was going to type the exact same thing! Where the heck were they keeping that many stallions?!?
In defense of the chunky-style Arab… I bought one as a pasture companion from a lady who had herself got the horse from a rescue and was getting divorced and losing her house. I was 9 months pregnant at the time so I’ll put the decision down to hormonal imbalance.
I actually fell in love with her ‘elegant pony’ looks and size but had been told that she should be a companion only because she both bucked and bolted with the previous owner. But when I finally got on the mare a year or so later, the ‘crazy maniac’ horse that had to be tranked to get on the trailer turned out to be ridiculously well-broke and charitable.She just didn’t like bits and preferred to be ridden in a hackamore, but she was a perfect lady. I trail rode her for several years, she packed my eldest daughter on trail rides for several years after that and I finally sold/gave her to an older trail-riding friend who needed something that could be pulled out of the pasture once a month and be consistent when she felt like going out for a casual jaunt in the woods. That was some 6-7 years ago. Guess what I heard last month; that old mare is out of semi-retirement and is introducing an 8 year old child to riding. When I compare this horse to my friends Russian-bred maniac it’s hard to believe they are the same breed. I’ll take the chunky one, thank you very much!
“Where the heck were they keeping that many stallions?!?”
My guess is all together in not a big enough space. While you CAN pasture stallions together if they’re used to it, overcrowding them especially in view/smell of mares leads to issues. That stallion on their web site looks pretty beaten up.
If their so rare, than why are you starving them dumbass? Is it just me or does it seem that more and more Krazy people are coming out of the wood work? If you think breeding horses will bring you into $$$$$$, your seriously dreaming. Unless mommy and daddy have DONE <—– *key word* something don't expect $10,000 for a foal. In fact you just helped fill a trailer of a KB. Now if mommy and daddy have done something and won successfully nermorous times and show great conformation, now you can demand $10,000 for a foal. Until than please stick to Howrse. This is the only way some of us can actuallyt ake care of our horses and is much easier for some of the lazire people. And yes when people are selling their horses, you can tell between kids (or the delusional) and people with common sense. I'm not going to pay 50,000e (howse coins) for a 20 year old you have done squat with. This should really be made into a test to separate the children (or the delusional) from people who actually know what they are doing. This is almost like saying Doc Bar is sooooooo rare or Eclipse *head desk* why people why? Stop filling KB trucks with your useless crap. Your just making yourself poorer and the KB richer.
More and more krazy people ARE coming out of the woodwork. They’re using the economic downturn as an excuse to over breed all kinds of animals, not get vet care and not feed. But they keep breeding.
I’m currently being driven nuts by Ebay’s fairly new free classifieds. Since Craigslist readers routinely flag backyarders, these breeder dickheads have run over to Kijiji. The Dogs For Sale section will give you nightmares. “Schmorkies, Dorkies, Porkies, MULTI-poos (wow, does it really shit that much?), Doxiedoodles, ‘teacups’ (read: sickly runt X sickly runt”), all made up mutt crosses, are being sold by the thousands, for hundreds of dollars. And you’ll see how many of these BYBs ask for cash. Horse ads, too, but not as many. Because CL allows any kind of horse sales.
What puzzles me is how many people are actually buying these things for that kind of money. Yeah, there are good mutts, but I wouldn’t pay more than $50 for one. If you have $900 for a dog, why aren’t you attending dog shows and meeting real breeders? I just don’t get it. People will attend car shows, moon over the best ones, do their consumer research and THEN buy.
When I’m in a foul mood, I randomly email BYBs and tell them I’d like to meet the puppies—so I can report back to the tax man how much they’re making under the table. And to the Justice Dept. re: the rules they’re violating by claiming some made up b.s. mutt is a real breed. In Canada, there’s a $50,000 fine for the latter. It’s illegal under the Pedigree Act. Just my little way of blowing off steam and putting a tiny dent in the epidemic.
Some days you just have to be a bitch.
Oh I hear you. I have a chorkie but she came from the Bakersfield shelter and I got her through a rescue friend for a whopping $10. Of course she has already had puppies – they told me that when they spayed her. OF COURSE SHE DID. ‘Cause god forbid you have a little dog without popping puppies out of it before it turns two years old.
AH I know!
Some channel here in Asutralia has this show about a vet and his clinic on the TV.
Guess what’s on this week?
’15 month old Bella (unquote: who looks like a little Pug or something) is pregnant with 6 huuuuuge puppies!’
Vet dude: ‘We are going to have to do a cesarean! There is no way they will come out any other way!’
Commentator: ‘Watch here at (such and such time, such and such day) to see her incredible story!’
Me: ‘WTF INCREDIBLE STORY? Yeah, the part about her owners actually taking her to the Vet is! All the rest happens ALL DAY all over the place, except those animals die due to lack of brains, money and Vet care!’
And I doubt they will mention that you should NOT breed a dog that young, especially to a different breed of dog and triple especially if none of the parents have papers to start with and are mongrels themselves. Also, you do not use a small bitch and a big dog, numbnuts.
What is wrong with people?
Oh yes, and according to the NEWS (yes, it was on the news, believe it or not), there is an epidemic of THE PUPPY VIRUS (aka Parvo, you douchebags, adult dogs get it, too, if you don’t vaccinate) and they don’t know for sure why! However, they do know that LOTS of people are saving on vaccinations because of the economic crisis. So, I wonder why this terrible puppy virus is getting so bad?!
Mind you, I’m paying like $49 per dog to vaccinate….. Once a year….. That’s doable, isn’t it…
It’s all a great mystery, isn’t it…
All right then, in some cases we can lower that $50 to $10
In Canada, I would bump that to at least $25, as that’s the going rate for animals destined for lab experiments. Man, you post info like that on Craigslist pets here, and it’s flagged in about 2 seconds. People are always asking, “What’s a reasonable rehoming fee?” and if you answer with that fact, the brokers will kill you. They surf for free animals incessantly.
Vancouver Animal Control adopts out for $250, regardless of breed. HOWever, that includes: mandatory neuter, all necessary vet care (including dental!) and meds, vaccs, collar, training DVD, and six weeks insurance. If anyone’s looking for a nice, socialized, vetted and neutered bunny, they’re only $26.
So true! 900 dollars for a mix? WHY? My l’il shih tzu, who is from a very reputable breeder, cost 300 dollars. No papers since she, ah, has two possible fathers.
Definitely a shih-tzu daddy but which one is up for debate, and she’s only pet quality so the breeder wasn’t going to get a DNA test. Still, she’s absolutely pure bred and cost a lot less than the ridonkulus designer crosses at the pet store which don’t have papers either.
It’s really a shame they let those horses get so bad. The picture of the stallion in front of the round bale when he was fat with decent feet makes me think he’s probably pretty adorable and would make a nice gelding. Although, being out of a daughter of Gai Parada, maybe he’s a perfectly fine stallion, just in need of sensible handling and good care. I’m no Arab fan, but even *I* know who Gai Parada was. The sales list was a hoot. Absurdly long. I don’t know about anyone else, but when I see a farm with a huge sales list that isn’t a thousand-acre ranch, I just pass it up. There must be a reason they aren’t selling anything is my view.
Also, if these horses are considered “old-fashioned” Arabians, it’s good to know that I like the chunky, fat-necked ones, I guess!
The article says “…22 stallions and and 25 mares…” Twenty-two stallions?!?! Surely that is a misprint?
Unfortunately, I think that is accurate. I’m not sure if the problem was that gelding costs money or that they were delusional enough to believe everything they bred was a stallion prospect, but they didn’t geld anything.
I live in the far north Dallas area and would like to attend this auction, but I’ve had difficulty finding the exact address of the location. Maybe it’s out there, but it’s taking me forever to weed through all the other info searching for it. If someone knows the address of the auction location, can you please post it in the comments here?
Also, as much as I’d love to adopt one, it would not be financially wise of me to do so right now due to my current horse having some mystery (so far, no clear diagnosis, and most likely there is more than just one thing going on) medical issues. BUT, I do have a truck and trailer, and if there is anyone in the area who would like to adopt one but does not have transportation for the horse(s), please reply to my comment with a way for me to contact you. I have a large enclosed slant load – I think 7′tall and 7′wide – that I am happy to help with. It has 3 stalls, but the 3rd stall is smaller and would not fit a very long horse. I’m willing to volunteer my time and equipment, and if the distance isn’t too far then I really don’t even care about gas money. If it’s a bit of a distance, I still don’t mind helping, but like I said, money is tight from all of my vet bills, so you might have to pitch in for gas.
I quickly peeked at their web site and I kinda like their main stallion ( Silver ), although it’s hard to tell from the weird photo angle. Not exactly a conformation or victory show ring photo, which I would have much prefered to see when someone is advertising their stallion, esp. for a substantial stud fee as $2500. Yep, show me, a mare owner, a photo of your stallion eatting hay in the pasture. Even though the photo is funky, from a breeder’s stand point, I liked him UNTIL I got a peek at some of what I assume are some of his offspring – those rear legs, rough croups, and short necks…..yikes! That said, I used to own a similair bred gelding, who was foaled in 1969, and he was a wonderful show horse ( he had better conformation than some I saw on their web site), I had him for 21 years and would LOVE another one like him. My experience with the bloodline is that they DO make wonderful family horses and are very handy at just about anything you want to do with them. Of course, you do have to feed and train them.
As far as the argument over WHY the horses were seized…
(1) It doesn’t matter. Starving a horse leads to pain, discomfort, and possibly irreversible medical issues that will be chronic and expensive to treat. Letting a horse’s feet go untrimmed leads to pain, discomfort, and possibly irreversible medical issues that will be chronic and expensive to treat. Tomato, To-mah-to, none of it is excusable when it’s very easy to just NOT OWN HORSES that you can’t afford to care for.
(2) Everyone who says that the authorities will not seize horses just because their feet are a little overgrown is 100% correct. It’s hard enough to get them to seize horses for the starvation thing, I doubt very seriously they’re going to be inspecting feet. I’ve reported horses before, as have other people I know, and here in north Texas you hear the cliche BS excuses all too often – “that horse is only skinny because he’s old” “that horse must just have high metabolism because there’s plenty of [cough,inedible weeds,cough] green stuff in the pasture for him to eat” “they’ve got [nasty, moldy, disgusting] round bales in there for the horse now”. You try to explain to them simple concepts such as an old horse may not have any teeth left to be able to eat that disgusting moldy round bale, and people look at me like I’m asking them to put on a loin cloth and fan the horse with bamboo leaves and feed him grapes off the vine while rubbing massage oil all over him and maybe strum a little ukulele while humming a tropical tune. That’s just the typical mentality of people here. For them to think that a horse, or herd of horses, is worth seizing, it must be PRETTY bad.
Now where did I put my ukulele, my horse is getting impatient……
You nearly made me wet myself xD
-.-
Actually there are a couple there that even in an emaciated state I can see are quality horses. I am somewhat fond of the smaller chankier arab compared to the snaky necked types who seem to be inclining towarnd overshot jaws. If I didn’t live in the UK I’d take a few in a heartbeat.
Ugh…this drives me up the wall. Why? Why? Why?! And whats up with their stud on the website? Is that scars or something else all over him? I personally DO like the old *Raffles and Ferzon bred horses. Love them in fact, but would never breed for it. They’re still out there and always will be. My uncle in Yakima (years and years ago like the 70′s and 80′s) used to breed them (on a tiny scale…like 3 foals every two years or so), train them and sell them with a few local shows under their belt. Some went on to be nice 4H horses, some trail mounts. Colts never left without being gelded first. He wasn’t in it for the money. I learned to ride on these sturdy little Arabs. BUT like mentioned….not a rarity. I can look at any nice 4H Arab at a show and tell if it’s got the “Polish” bred look to it (thats what they are…Polish-type Arabians….like there are Egyptian, Russian and probably some other American-ized types I don’t know about…like that one farm I saw online that breds for that FUGLY narrow-headed, long, tiny, big-muzzled deformed monstrosity they claim as true Arabs…..I shutter at remembering the horrid picture of the grey mare with her deformed face being held by her proud handler with a beautiful show halter on…..EEEEEKKK!). I rescued a grey mare once. Couldn’t even tell what breed she was until we got weight on her, she was literally a walking skeleton! I guess a chick bought her on a whim from the Enumclaw auction, then stuck her in a 12 X 12 pen and went off with her new boyfriend, expecting her mom to feed the mare. Out of spite, the mom (who didn’t want her daughter to buy the horse in the first place) didn’t feed the poor mare, so she ended up eating blackberry bushes, the wood fence, anything within reach. A friend saw her, offered to take the mare off the lady’s hands and so she gladly turned her over to her. She brought the mare to me since I had room for her. I, thinking she had been given to my friend who thought the same, started feeding her and putting weight on her. One day about a month after getting her, the chick showed up, furious that her mom had given away HER horse! Yes, she decided to finally check on her horse after god-knows how many months of not coming home! She tried to halter the mare and take her off my property. The sheriff was called, her mom was called and after about 2 hours and a check for $500 (yes I shelled out $500 to keep this mare from this wretched girl since thats what she said she paid for her. Her mom wanted another $200 ontop of that since she claimed she had put that much feed into the mare during the 6 months she had her. ONLY $200 WORTH OF FEED FOR 6 MONTHS? OMG no wonder why the poor mare starved! Sheriff said no, but he was sure animal control would be interested in this case if she decided to NOT sell me the horse….she beat a hasty retreat!) The sheriff made her sign over a bill of sale to me, and told her that possession was 9/10ths of the law and she had no right to come on my property and try to take the horse, she should have gone through legal ways. Of course since the chick had warrents out for her for one reason or another, she wasn’t going to even attempt such a legal action because that would mean going into a courtroom and probably be thrown in jail because they caught her! LOL! Anyway, it turned out she was a springy, dainty but sturdy Polish Arab with lots of fire inside. I think that’s what kept her alive when I first saw her, that Arab stamina and drive. She turned into a nice…though jiggy….trail horse who ended up with a friend of mine in a happy home for many, many years before she passed on from cancer.
This just disgusts me. I have a Raffles/Ferzon bred arabian mare at home and while she is a great trail horse, the thought of her placing in a breed show is laughable. Oddly enough she’s actually 15 hands, tall for that line.
At any rate, the whole notion of “preserving” a specific bloodline is bullshit. If it’s worth preserving, it won’t need preservation because people will be voluntarily breeding to it. It will live on because of quality. If the quality is not there, then it’s not worth preserving.
The fundamental problem here is stupid people. If only there was a way to prohibit idiots from owning horses…
I definitely have to agree with you here. I have a Raffles-bred mare, and my first horse was also Raffles-bred (uncle of my current mare actually – they came from the same farm). I do love the short chunky look and they are *awesome* rides and very sane, but they just do not have that ‘Arab’ look to them. GREAT trail and endurance horses… show horses they are not.
I have toyed with the idea of breeding my short (well, fairly tall for her breeding at just under 15 hands) chunky mare to a tall, refined stallion… but more than likely when she does pass (she’s in her early 20′s now but I’m betting I have a good 10 years left with her) I will just look for a young horse that has that breeding already and is old enough to tell if the cross worked. I’m sure they have to exist out there somewhere, even with the asshat breeders messing it up so much.
I am so sick of idiots who can’t care for their horses but “need” to make more. Really? If you can’t feed the ones you have, stop making more starving horses! I am a former Arabian breeder, lifetime Arabian addict, and when the market crashed I stopped breeding and put my money into training so that my horses maintained their value. Why is that so hard for people to figure out? My foals had rare bloodline and were “special” but that doesn’t mean squat if there’s no market and it mean even less when they are sickly and starved. The last 2 I produced are stil with me… in training and slightly over weight (I have the opposite problem, I feed too well). It just hits a nerve with me that people can repeatedly starve, neglect and kill horses they claim to love.
Not sure how to respond to this. It is becoming way to prevalent; what goes through these people’s heads? It sickens me to see these images over and over, with the care givers always placing the blame on something ‘out of their control’. What does that mean? That they are imbeciles that can’t manage the food intake of a dependent animal? How does any compassionate human being stand by and watch this happen to the animals in their care? (deep breath). It amazes me at the honest, caring nature of most of these horses, that,with God and those caring individuals help , they find an amazing home with plenty of food, love and maybe a ‘job’;they will trust and love their humans again.
Good Luck to them,the last big Arabian case we dealt with was 23 supposedly straight Egyptians and Egyptian breds,and 1 donkey,back in 2007.Guess who was adopted first? Thats right,the donkey!We still have a few of the younger horses that are in the Trainers Challenge 2010,they are hard to place unless they are trained to ride.Hopefully an auction of these horses can be avoided,there is no way to exclude the “alleged violator” or the friends of said person from attending and bidding.Frying pan,indeed.
Which horses are in the trainer’s challange this year? Also, I live pretty close to you guys, so I was wondering if you had a number I could call about volunteering…I’m NOT an experienced rider, but I’d love to help with grooming, mucking, that sort of stuff!!!:)
Go to the MHARF website mnhoovedanimalrescue.org and click on the highlighted area on the bay horses picture.we can always use volunteers,call or email to set up a time to visit! Phone # is on the site,also.See you soon!
It totally amazes me that people think they can make money from breeding horses. Even here in Vermont we have this same problem, and with more than horses. Goats, sheep, chickens, pigs… the list goes on and on of animals that others want to ‘save’ and ‘protect’ and they do more harm than good. I would LOVE to have 100 horses, but know I can’t afford more than the two ponies and two horses I have now. It’s kinda like the government, but at least the government has all our taxpaying dollars to keep writing checks on, borrowing from the future and everyone else in the world. Ohy, vey, it would be much more simple to just take care of the ones we have instead on insisting we have to create so many more…. spay and neuter all except those that are truthfully exceptional. I promise we won’t lose as many as we do to starvation and inadequate care.
You can make money breeding horses. My friend made at least $500 on the sale of her stud colt when she sold him to Germany. She may have made more, if you don’t figure in the cost of pasture taxes and fencing as a feed.
You just can’t make a living at it. Not when you own the mares and the stallions, and no one buys your stuff. I know of breeding farms who have stallions, and breed 40+ mares per year to their well bred stallions. Those people are making money, also. In fact, they come close to making a living, unless you count the overhead involved in having a ‘show’ facility for the looks. The mare owners, on the other hand…..
So if you paid over $50,000 for your stallion prospect, and you have 20+ outside mares lined up already for when he starts breeding…. congratulations. You are probably gonna make money. Maybe even a living for a few years. If you paid $5,000 for your stallion, and then BOUGHT 20 mares to breed to him… god help you. I rather expect we will hear about it in a few months or years, when you are featured on FHOTD.
Heck, I wish people here would actually have stallions they paid as much as $5,000 for! Most of my “targets” think a $500 horse is a stud prospect.
The breeder I worked for considered the stallion a good investment if he broke even within three years. That’s figuring in purchase price, promotional fees, advertising, feed, insurance, mare care, etc… vs. stud fees. The few mares he kept and bred and raised foals from were part of the promotion of his stallions– not financial gains of themselves.
I’m beginning to think there is mass insanity in the horse world and it’s all centered on denial. Every person thinks their horse is the best, their breeding ideas are the best, go gung ho and end up with 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or more horses that they then don’t know what to do with. This all seems to happen in complete isolation to what is going on in the world and especially the horse world. It’s bad in Arabs but sure as heck seems to be present in other breeds as well. Read Joe at TBFriends this am and wanted to cry. Read about the 30 Saddlebreds south of me and wanted to cry. And those are the ones we know about…how many more are suffering in silence?
What the hell do we do about it? I’ve tried talking to the owner of the beyootiful black (of course) stallion who lived at the barn where I used to board. Poor thing paced the stall all day and was miserable. He was pretty and would make a nice gelding. She had her head in the clouds about him and wanted to breed a horse to keep for herself. Why why why? She didn’t even ride! I’m sorry to report that I had no luck in changing her mind. Each person I talk to seems to think that THEY will do a better job than anyone else and breed successfully. Really?
Keep writing and preaching Fugs, that’s all I can figure will stop this. Poor poor horses. Good on the Arabian community for stepping up to try and help. The people on ABN have been responsible for absorbing the mess from a bunch of these mass rescues and making sure the word gets out. I really respect them for it…it ain’t been easy.
Watching sad movis really does it for me. Like going to the Humane Society and NOT bringing a sad sweet dog home with me.
Boy am I going to be in trouble when our property and barn is finished going up (note how the barn is designed for three stalls but I currently only have one horse-I have a feeling those stalls will fill up). Im a real sucker for those sad eyes.
Why, why, why does it always have to be Arabians??? Okay, I know it isn’t always Arabs but it sure seems as though a large percentage of these cases are Arabian “breeders.” Talk about the curse of beauty!
No, it isn’t always or even most of the time. We’ve just had a streak of these lately!
That video is sad. Despite being starved, quite a few of them appeared to have a lot of conformation issues. What is wrong with people? Someone I used to be friends with has started breeding horses like this too, what she thinks are “special” AQHA lines. I just don’t understand how these people can breed a crappy stallion thats done nothing, to a crappy mare that has done nothing and expect to sell it well above market value?? Especially when they bred so many that they can’t even work with them! Just can’t wrap my head around it!
Today I was browsing the local kijiji ads, and saw an ad “Lots of horses for sale” – so I clicked on it, and these people must just be nuts. They don’t list any details, but say they breed horses plus lots of other things – goats, donkeys, mini donkeys, mini horses, puppies, kittens, pigs, ducks, chickens, etc etc etc! I can’t even imagine the state those animals must be in – there is no way you can properly manage that many animals!
I can’t imagine ever having my horses so skinny! I am wanting to cut the hay back on 2 of my horses who are getting slightly bigger than they should be – but I feel too bad
Maybe I’m just being negative, but the horse world seems to becoming quite dismal. Where I live every Joe Shmo has taken to calling themselves a trainer, where you need to pay $1200 to board your horse indoors (no outdoor option, despite the fact that there is TONS of pasture land here), and then need to pay another $800 a month on training. These trainers have never competed above 3′ hunters, and don’t know a thing about horses. You can’t buy a horse here because everyone over breeds crap and expects top dollar for it. It’s just ridiculous!
“say they breed horses plus lots of other things – goats, donkeys, mini donkeys, mini horses, puppies, kittens, pigs, ducks, chickens, etc etc etc!”
NO KIDDING. At what point might such people want to consider that they have a very serious mental or sexual fetish? Seriously folks, we are in a new millenium. You don’t have to breed EVERY thing you touch.
Yeah, you are not Old McDonald…JUST STOP!
After reading this blog for so long, I put that nursery rhyme on the same level as “pockets full of posies”. Bubonic plague/ over-breeding and starving, same difference.
Amen to you Rollkursucks, you sure hit the nail on the head.
In response to why the horses are being auctioned, many state laws require the animals to be sold at auction. Further, for the authorities to find homes one by one would probably take forever, and the cost to keep the horses would go through the roof. I think I read the other day that Darlene’s horses have cost 200,000 dollars so far to care for? Most county board members would burst into flames seeing a bill like that.
Sadly, money is everything, even when it comes to saving starving animals.
Fugly just because you do not like Arabians/do not like certain lines doesn’t mean that these lines are deserving of your overly dripping sarcasm. Regardless of whether this is a hoarder and neglect and abuse situation, some people do appreciate these lines. Not ALL Raffles bred horses are fat necked short legged ponies and the Ferzon (Gainey breeding) horses were mostly spectacular horses. I should know, I had several of both lines and started with Ayrabs in the 1950′s. I can tell you this, if you look at the ABN thread on this and there is mention of Arlene Magid, that might be a clue as to why these hoarders seemed to have felt their so-called “breeding program” have validity. IMHO Arlene Magid is a complete and utter idiot and her odd behavior over the past few decades has become, ah, legendary is the word which comes to mind…she is known to support really bad breeders and hoarders because she too has the preservation bug.
This type of situation has happened over and over AND OVER seemingly overwhelmingly more so with Arabians and Saddlebreds (see the most recent Saddlebred seizure in Chillicothe, Ohio, where at least one faux rescue group recommended to the authorities that the “elderly woman unable to care for her horses due to health reasons” was STILL allowed to keep “several broodmares” because of their rare bloodlines and because it would “break the old woman’s heart to give them up”). While I see the same preservationist fanaticism with foundation Quarterhorses I don’t see as much publicized hoarding – maybe because everything goes to auction pdq if sales quotas aren’t met. WhatEVER.
What I am asking is that you, Cathy, please stop making blanket generalizations about breeds and/or lines within breeds. There ARE dedicated, responsible breeders out there and even your despised Raffles-bred Arabians have the consistent traits that they are deeply affectionate, extraordinarily intelligent and extremely “trainable.” In fact, many people who have had Raffles-bred horses will say, rather than training them it was more like just re-introducing them to things they already “knew.” Frankly, I personally can excuse a “fat neck” if I can have such intelligence and sweetness of character in my barn! And there ARE dedicated, responsible breeders out there who cherish the Gainey breeding (which is a long (over half a century), very honorable, very responsible program which continues in that family to this day and these horses have phenomenal performance records. I personally would choose anything that long ago originated in or was imported by Crabbet Stud and the related British breeding programs long ago that selected horses for soundness, performance, trainability and just plain ol’ being a lovely four-legged person to have in your life over anything recently overbred and ruthlessly touted by the fashion-of-the-moment breeders.
I can’t believe I say this to a long term reader but:
This blog is my opinion. That’s it. I get to have ANY opinion I want on MY blog. My opinion is that these lines are not in style for the show ring because they’re short and fat-necked and that opinion is borne out if you’d like to review which bloodlines are winning in today’s Arabian shows. Honestly, short and chunky is not in style in many breeds – hence the reason the foundation QH people had to make their own show circuit. Today’s riders typically want a taller, more elegant looking horse. This is true in Arabians, Quarter Horses, Paints, Appaloosas, you name it.
I do not believe that people should breed horses that are not going to be extremely competitive in SOME sort of discipline. This is not news. I have said the same thing for three years. There are competitive disciplines that are not the show ring – for example, endurance. But again, you have to actually compete in that to create the value in your horses. You have to prove them.
It has nothing to do with “despising” certain lines. I’m merely observing that a Ferrari is going to sell a lot better and typically get better maintenance than a Kia. I never said that EVERYBODY who breeds X bloodline or X breed is a hoarder or neglects their animals.
Everybody just gets all up in arms when I criticize whatever it is they like. Hey, if you love X, write your own blog about how great X is. This is my blog. I get to have any opinions I want and my opinion is that short, fat necked Arabs are cute, but not competitive and not in demand by buyers and therefore breeding tons of them is not very responsible. Actually, breeding anything above the demand for it is irresponsible, and many breeders do not seem to have a clear understanding of what the demand really is.
Well, actually my “problem” Cathy is that I have this unfortunate ability to appreciate a lot of different things in a lot of different breeds and have zero breed prejudice. What I asked you politely to consider was to knock off the blanket generalizations. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you do yourself a disservice by making these blanket generalizations veiled thinly in sneering insult.
I have no interest in launching some kind of fan blog for the Raffles or Ferzon bred horses. Actually if the truth be known the only blog I’d really be interested in these days (besides yours and Fenway’s) would have to do with the fact that EGADS YIKES HOW SHAMEFUL! HOW STUPID! HOW MISGUIDED!!! I RIDE MY DRAFT HORSE!!! – that is to say, bring on the flamers I now have my flame suit on because “you’re not supposed to ride draft horses” (or similar nonsense).
I would add to the “successful in the showring” judgment you offer, the snarky but obvious reply that there really is more to life with horses than the show ring.
And yes the Ferzon and Raffles bred horses still do win at shows, they can be found in the “real” performance divisions where they actually (and eagerly) get to do “real” things other than look purtee. And they still compete successfully in other areas including in open competition where advanced training and a super willing never-quit attitude is appreciated and rewarded.
You’re welcome to your opinion, but as always, it’s my blog and your opinion does not affect it.
And I think it’s great when people ride draft horses.
What exactly do you consider the “real” performance divisions? Name names, please.
Just jumping in to answer this: the Arabian Sporthorse classes (dressage, jumping etc.) … while many in the Class A show world deride them, they are very popular, especially among amateur owners. And a fair number of the good horses in those classes have Raffles/Gainey breeding.
My world is the Morgan world, and there’s a similar split; the “Class A breed show” people deride the sport classes, even though a lot of the breed show classes only attract a few horses and the sport classes can get quite full. And a lot of the “sport” Morgans are the shorter/chunkier/SOUNDER sorts.
And I personally know a short, chunky (fit as hell) Welsh that is taking the dressage world by storm. He is refered to as “The Dressage Sensation’ ! So if what you said was true about this type of Arab resembling a Welsh. I just might need to hop in my truck and start driving like crazy down to Texas and buy me one of those scrawny chunkers! who’s with me???
I’m with you on that strong urge!! I love these lines…the large Welsh pony look is very dear to me. My best horse was a little 13.3 Arab mare with an incredible personality. Very loyal, easy once trust was established, and an amazing ride. Others that were used to fancy warmbloods and TB’s were amazed at how big she felt when on her back. I love those chunky, short-necked, big-brained, intelligent Arabs!
Of course I don’t like how this farm was breeding. And I’m certainly po’d that these horses weren’t being cared for.
Here is a list of successful divisions that Raffles/Ferzon horses have competed in (recently, ie within the past 2-3 years) without much effort looking…
Reserve National Champion Reining
Reserve Ntl Champion 4th Level Dressage
Ntl Champion WP
Ntl Champion Sport Horse Under Saddle
Ntl Ch sport horse in hand
Reserve Ntl Champion Cutting
Other championships in
Hunter Hack
Green Hunter
Low Hunter Championship
While they are not everyone’s cup of tea, they bring a lot to the table and certainly have the mentality to be strong, sane athletes.
Saying they’re unmarketable is not saying they’re poor quality horses. I think we can all agree that if someone chooses to breed horses that are not marketable, everyone suffers in the end including the neglected horses, the bankrupt owners/breeders, and the rest of the horse community that has to clean up the mess.
My first horse was a Raffles-bred gelding, 14.2, built like a tank, no dish to his nose. One of those horses that is obviously an arab, but really doesn’t look like an arab. He was an AMAZING horse – won a lot of blue ribbons for me in dressage tests, eventing trials and hunter shows, and just for fun we even entered Gambler’s Choice at a few jumper shows and won! After I started riding a younger and bigger horse, he continued to be a great teacher for my mom to learn dressage on and to trail ride with.
The problem is: if a serious arab person would have ever looked at him and said “gee, I think he’d do great in arab breed shows” I would have thought they were insane. The other problem is: if a serious dressage/eventer/hunter/jumper would have ever looked at him and said “gee, he’s won you a lot of ribbons, maybe I’ll sell off my imported warmblood and get me one of those” I would also have thought they were insane.
Even though I LOVED LOVED LOVED that horse, everyone loved him, and – as I’ve said many times before – I think he probably was the best horse in the history of all horses – there just isn’t much of a demand for him. I’m not really sure why, because his conformation was flawless, his gaits were beautiful, his temperament was great, he was sweet, healthy, he was very smart and trainable (I think he was born trained), etc etc, but in any show ring there is always something else that people want more. Sporthorse disciplines want warmbloods. Arab shows want typey arabs. Where does that leave the ones that, although they are great quality horses, are not the top preference for any one group?
Even though my horse was WONDERFUL, I don’t think someone competing in arab shows would have paid as much for him as they would for a horse with the same temperament but more preferable arab look. There is no way that someone willing to pay $80,000 for a WB would have paid that for my arab, even if my arab took the blue ribbon over that WB in a class.
Maybe that will change one day. I’d hate to see this style of arab die out, but making a whole bunch of them that do nothing but starve in a field won’t help them. I think it will be up to the arab people to promote them more, and maybe then they could become more popular in other disciplines, too. Maybe someone SMART and RESPONSIBLE will make a few of them very successful at something that will make them more marketable, without having to breed more than they can care for and sell. I’d love to have another tank-built arabian one day!
Well, as usual, I’m seeing both sides of this. Sure, maybe big time Warmblood owners won’t buy a Raffles Arab, because they can pay $80,000 for a broke Holsteiner gelding and wow the nation in dressage or such. Maybe ‘serious’ Arabian showmen don’t want something that is short or chunky.
But the thing is, so many of those people are not the real world. There are people out there like me, who remembers the totally AMAZING Arabian who was a quarter inch under horse height for 4-H. He won it all at the fair, and often at open shows, because he was beautiful, smart, and no matter what the girl took him in, he gave it everything. He was a stallion, but they found out they couldn’t have their daughter show 4-H with a stallion, so they gelded him. THAT was how good minded he was. THAT is what I want. I don’t want some high powered ‘elegant’ horse of any breed, because there is something to be said for the steady Freddies. I’ve owned the pleasure bred AQHA horses that would blow for little to no reason if things weren’t perfect. I’ve ridden the ‘fancy’ dressage horses that required a manual just to get them to walk. I love the spirit of the Thoroughbreds as they fly over jumps. But when I’m deciding what I want to buy, I’m looking for that amazing personality, and while a versatile horse is often considered a Jack of All Trades, for someone like me that is my favorite horse.
I guess my point is this– I LIKE the bloodlines that just trickle along, never really hot in vogue but still producing straight legged, good minded specimens over the years. I would hate to think that we produced horses solely for their marketability in the show world, because we all agree that show organizations can REALLY mess up a breed sometimes. It’s nice to know that when those poor Arabians get so seriously warped in build that their spindly legs won’t hold them and their dished faces won’t let them breath anymore, there IS an Arabian out there that will pull things back from the edge of ruination. It might not be worth megamillions right now, but it just might save the breed eventually, one 4-H show at a time.
All that said, you aren’t salvaging ANY bloodlines when you breed and breed and breed and don’t train and use your progeny. You are just creating unproven animals that might very well be the ones that don’t need to be breeding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erQJI6DCFL8
I am in serious love with this horse, and with the German trainer who asserts that in HIS country, horses like this, even German Riding Ponies, routinely beat Warmbloods in dressage.
My connection is slow tonight, so I only watched the first minute. What an exquisite animal-and focused and hard-working as well.
Isn’t he lovely? I’ve seen him before on Youtube.
You know, technically, dressage I thought was more about the training anyway. A good judge should be comparing the horse’s training to its ability? Maybe I’m remembering wrong, but in that sense it seems that any good minded horse should do well in dressage, if they have an even gait and aren’t actually limited by their build. Not sure a horse just HAS to float around in order to win. The reality may be different, but that’s what I remember the concept being.
I’m an ex-Arab person, but I do admire (as I did 30 years ago) the performance aspect of the the Al Marah horses. They are amazing in cutting, reining and HUS and still winning today http://www.al-marah.com/showresults.html .
One of my very favorite memories was visiting the Al Marah stud in Tucson. Talk about heavenly. I think they had a program where 4-H youth could foster one of their babies, and if they maintained and did things correctly, they could then adopt or buy the horse at a reduced fee?
Cathy, I know you can defend yourself perfectly well. It’s just that when someone makes a leap of logic to create a conflict, it gets me bitchy.
Sunvalleysally, Cathy did NOT say there’s something wrong with the chunkier Arabs. In fact, a few days ago she FEATURED the most gorgeous rescue mare of this frame. And I am very sensitive to comments about ‘lanky good’, ‘chunky bad,’ as I am definitely of the latter body type myself.
What she says repeatedly (and specifically, in this thread), is that if your particular line of horses is not marketable, STOP F*CKING BREEDING. The post is titled ‘Rare, speshul and starving…’ There is your first clue. If people are not buying your chunky Arabs, as wonderful as they may be, STOP F*CKING BREEDING. Or, only breed what you can support for life. Then we wouldn’t have to concern ourselves with these starved horses.
If you are still thoroughly convinced your line must be preserved, do what responsible dog breeders do: they rack up enough show ring/working title wins until they have a WAITING LIST with cash deposits, because people are begging them for puppies. The breeder picks and chooses which homes they go to, not the other way around.
I kept my horse at a responsible breeder’s barn. People fought over first dibs on an expected foal, including me. People called her all the time, asking, “Anything coming up?” That’s the situation you want.
The most special, schoolmaster horse I ever had was of a breed mix I still can’t figure out. She was my mount as a kid. She was possibly STB+Morgan+QH with a little rhino thrown in. A head so plain, you could barely make out a bone structure in photos. She was a miracle to ME, but even the one baby she ever had didn’t sell. She was never bred again. Fortunately, she and her baby had a wonderful, lifelong home on the farm. Her homeliness didn’t make her any less special. If I was Queen of the world and wildly rich, I would create a line based on her special qualities. Any foals that didn’t sell, I would keep for life. But since I am regretfully, neither, I have to accept she was the end of the line.
You do not bring a creature into this world without a guaranteed good home. If people followed just that one principle, there’d be so much less suffering in the world. Don’t get me started on women who have babies with abusive creeps, okay?
There is something really, really wrong with someone who can see their animals are not popular, but they keep breeding.
Cathy, while of course this is your blog and your opinion, I believe you’re more likely to convince people if you express your opinion in a way that’s less alienating. I’m assuming that your purpose is to convince, not just to snark for the sake of snark, and I could be wrong about that.
Anyway, as I posted below, I don’t accept that the market, by itself, will produce the best horses. That’s not reality. Observed reality would indicate that the market, left to itself, produces freaks, because a larger percentage of potential buyers are morons than smart people. Someone thought that Impressive was a good stud prospect, even though he became a halter horse because he was friggen useless for anything else. Someone was right – turned out Quarter Horse people LIKE useless horses. They don’t mind much that the horses break down sometimes before adulthood, look ugly, and have fits and die. They like to get their freak on. Potential buyers also like Big Lick crawling spider canters, dressage horses that look like hyenas, and Arabians with bug eyes who flip over backwards with nerves.
It seems so clear to me that humans are too dumb to breed themselves, much less other creatures… and the idea that they would, based on fashion, make intelligent choices about what to keep and what to throw away makes just as much sense as M.C. Hammer’s pants. The difference is that while we lived through the 80′s and can make other types of pants now, if we ignore part of the gene pool for a generation, we won’t be able to make other types of horses. Ever.
Anyone who thinks they can make money with Arabians needs to preview the Addis Arabian Auction web site for the sales results from their past sales. ( http://www.addisequineauctions.com/Data/Images_Additional/Tradition%2013%202009%20Auction%20Results.pdf ) A small percentage of the big name, proven national or regional champions, do sell for good figures. But, when you figure in the costs it took to make that horse a champion, they are practically giving the horse way even at $40,000. But, keep reading on down the list and the prices quickly go down. Pretty soon, are the broodmares, unbroke youngsters, and the unproven, or horses from no-name farms, and they are selling for sad prices. Many many youngsters, sired by the most popular stallions, are selling for way less than the sire’s stud fee. How sad to sell your colt for $900 when the stud fee was $3500, not to mention the auction’s high consignment and commission fees, the mare’s care, the cost to raise the colt, training, the vet bills, farrier, etc. The only thing the seller gets out of the deal is the horse off his hands. When offpsring of big name stallions are bringing $400, what makes anyone think that their foals from their backyard stallions and mares, who have never been off their farm and done anything, will bring big money? True, some big name breeders are still selling their horses for good money ( the proven show winners) but you have to ask yourself, are you them? If you don’t have the name, the farm, the trainers, the proven show winners, you WILL lose money trying to breed nearly anything thing, if you take care of your animals like you should be taking care of them. Sure you can save some bucks by not feeding them, having farrier work done, not training and showing them, etc. Horse are like kids, just because YOU like yours ( or in the case of kids, you think they are cute, smart, extra special ) doesn’t mean everyone else does. Wish I was closer to Texas as I would love to rehab one of these horses and then find it a perfect home with someone who will love AND feed it.
Those really were a lot of sad prices and several no bids too. Makes you wonder what is going to happen to all of them. You know, sometimes I miss being blissfully ignorant of all these things.
Yes, and I have to add that even the colt listed for $900 may be selling for way less, and there is no way of knowing how much less.
People have a weird stubborness, when it comes to selling something, about the actual market value. I have been guilty too, of doing the same thing a few decades ago when I tried to sell my house without a realtor because I wanted the price I wanted and I didn’t want to pay that commission — result: I didn’t sell my house because I was asking too much. I have noticed since then that for-sale-by-owner houses have the same tendency; they tend to be overpriced. My favorite home and garden shows on tv often show people who are mad at their realtor because “I paid blah blah blah for that flooring and drapes — I’m not going to give away my house!” Well, guess what? Your house is worth what someone will pay for it, period. And that is totally influenced by the value of houses in your area because the bank will only loan a percentage of the appraised value, not what you paid for it two years ago, and not what you think it’s worth because you put expensive, gaudy marble in your whole first floor. (No, I’m not a realtor, nor am I in the housing business).
It’s the same thing with horses. People seem to think that just because some top Arabian sold for tens of thousands a few years ago, or some Olympic dressage horse is listed for a hundred thousand dollars, they can raise Warmbloods or Arabians (or whatever their dream is) and make money. There is a disconnect between the reality of the market today and their fantasy. And unlike a house, where you can defer painting or doing the lawn or other maintenance, a horse needs to be fed and cared for.
The really creepy thing is that it seems like the only people making money on horses are the kill buyers. Of course people in the services, such as feed stores, trainers, and boarding establishments make money, but as far as actually selling horses? I would love it if everyone would just realize it is a hobby. An expensive hobby. Then maybe we wouldn’t have these wackos with 50 purebred whatevers, holding out for the big bucks while their horses starve to death.
“People have a weird stubborness” I should have said people are amazingly greedy, because that’s really what it is, an attitude of “I’ll let my horse starve” or “I’ll bulldoze my house” before I sell it for its market value.
On the topic of abuse look at the pair of horses that were just seized in my county…they are in very very bad shape..also seized were two dogs and 2 goats..it just makes me sick people could do such a thing..the photos are very difficult to even look at.
http://uppermichiganhorses.ning.com/forum/topics/indigo-moon-come-home?xg_source=activity
Disgusting.
Yes it is.. and she still feels she has done no wrong and that these horses were healthy 3 weeks ago..she is trying to say this happened in just 1 month…the discussion is getting deeper and deeper on the site..I still cant believe some one would do that to an animal..the pictures make me so sick..
What a lovely community! I’m very impressed. Ripley’s could have learned a whole lot from these people. Pictures taken, before and after, and a strong support base so the authorities can work as they need, instead of waiting for resources in bad situations.
Thanks for sharing!
Hi Fugly, as usual you provide a much needed outlook to a bad situation. I have to comment though on the bloodlines you are talking about AND the preservation set in general. It is not going to help anyone to paint everyone with the same brush, this BS takes place in ALL of the blood groups in the arabian breed, not just Ferzon/Azraff cross etc. You are talking about some amazingly beautiful arabian horses Fugly, really and truly, bred right they are athletic and amazing creatures who indeed do sometimes look a bit welsh
I call them fairy horses (hah and not the kinda fairy you guys are thinking 
).
I admit us arab people are a weird bunch with our romantic notions and such but many of us despite that STILL believe in straight legs, a well shaped neck, a brain in that exquisitely shaped noggin and the other attributes of a GOOD HORSE. Because without type you do not have an arabian horse and without good conformation you don’t have a GOOD arabian horse.
I think breeders like this are so maddening as they give us all a bad name, all of us who are PRESERVING that which we find worthy are lumped into this WACKADOO category with these people who neglect and abuse their horses. Our lovely horses who are very kind, athletic and dripping with arabian type AND good conformation are lumped in with the fat necked horses you spoke of. They are not ALL fat necked and you find the fat necks in ALL of the blood groups though sometimes you find a very nice long neck along with a horribly long and weak back and weak loin.
Choose your poison
I understand why you lump everyone Fugly, I really do but it would do my heart good if I could post a few good pictures of some heavily linebred Skowronek (sire of *Raffles) horses who are NOT fat necked pony creatures. Now they are not huge, the arabian breed standards is 14.1 to 15.1 with occasional individuals over or under but they well put together, athletic , kind natured and worthwhile horses who ooze arabian type.
Thanks and if you tell me how to post photos I can, or could send you some
Thanks for fighting the good fight but don’t always aim your gun at the whole bunch….you pick off some good guys in doing so.
I understand why you lump everyone Fugly, I really do but it would do my heart good if I could post a few good pictures of some heavily linebred Skowronek (sire of *Raffles) horses who are NOT fat necked pony creatures.
God, I just love Skowronek, even if I butcher his name every time I think of him. That was an incredibly gorgeous stallion.
On making money, the only money you will make in arabian horses is in buying the land to keep them on. (Quoted from a good friend of mine and so very very true!!!!)
Ha Ha Ha! So true! I told my husband that my two old mares were a good investment because by doing a good deed by them, we would be obliged to purchase land to keep them on, thereby increasing our capital worth! Good argument, huh? And actually, we have made money (ON PAPER of course) by carefully shopping for and buying a particularly good investment. And just think! When we build the house and barn, we will have so much more equity! Ha ha ha… I am laughing all the way… to the county to pay my property taxes.
Thank God they’re too far away! I’ld have to look at the chestnut with wide blaze.
There were not 22 stallions.
There were 22 geldings that had not done their surgery yet.
Just saying.
*high fives*
this is sad. first they are starved and now they are being auctioned off to the first person with a trailer and some cash. disgusting! i REALLY hate people sometimes!
ot: check this out: http://www.unclehenrys.com/init/classifieds/ad_detail/3637808/?_next=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unclehenrys.com%2Finit%2Fsearch%2Fresults%2F1%233637808
yet another “mini” reason to hate people. poor little mini colt. if i had room and more time for a rowdy unhandled colt i would take him in a heartbeat, he’d make a cute driving gelding! i’d bet anything these idiots arent treating him well either. so sad.
Oh he is cute! But $800? No way…he ain’t worth it. I’d grab him up (and geld him immediately) for maybe $200 (thats really pushing it for an unhandled, unregistered 2 year old colt in my book). The “big” mini farm in our area is right now selling 2, 3 and 4 year old AMHA and AMHR registered, already trained-in-hand (trail course, jumps, showmanship, etc.) and some started in harness mini’s for $700 to $1200 depending on where they are in their training, their show records and breeding. Their top asking price for their “low-end” bred young horses (already gelded and halter broke…but still registered) is about $400. Of course I’ve already got my two mini geldings (18 year old mouse-grey and 6 year old leopard appy) who show in local and 4H shows and I’m happy with them, but someday I’d love to have a few more when my older big horses move onto the great beyond. I’m loving those mini’s!
In reference to ‘shorter and fatter necks’ not winning currently please see stallion Escape Ibn Navarrone (I have candid photos of him that were not presented to the public) This stallion is a gorgeous chunk of horse flesh but his neck is NOT long and it is rather chunky
Not fat chunky but not the saddlebred neck that we see lately either. He is no larger than 14.2.
Escape is not under saddle so we have that but you can tell by looking at him he’d be a blast to ride. Very solid boy.
But I agree totally on stallions getting under saddle and is why my boy is getting sent up this year for training.
Guys, not all of us arab people are into the long necked, long backed, long loined weak legged creatures of todays show ring, puh lease
I know it is an opinion but there is a reason the breed is declining.
Just because you breed Ibn National Champ to Bint National champ you will not always get Baby National Champ
You sometimes get FUGLY because paper to paper does not work. You have to look at the horse in front you, the pedigree and the ancestors as far back as you can find photos!! Or if you are lucky like me you can see them on the farm your horse came from.
This is a good thread though and needed to be said and the fact it is said gives us a chance to counter argue some of the commonly held misconceptions out there.
“But I agree totally on stallions getting under saddle and is why my boy is getting sent up this year for training.”
Hooray. And for those who do like the older type Arabians, getting them into training and into the show ring is an excellent way to re-popularize them and drive the value back up.
I’m glad you mentioned Escape – He is gorgeous. He’s my ideal whenever I think of arabian horses; him and Sterling Vision who is also a fairly substantial horse with a lovely head. Too many people get starry eyed over the long backed, tall types like the Marwan lines with their huge long necks but I personally dislike them – some of them look like their not far off growing a beak because their muzzles are becoming so stylised. I also can’t imagine them standing up to a long ridden life with such light bone.
I love me some solid Arabians with BONE and BUTT! I love them all, but I’d never buy one of the trendy halter types right now that look like someone crossed a gazelle with a housecat. But someday when I can have more than one horse, I will be right in line to get a nice baby from one of the breeders like you who are still breeding Arabians that are RIDDEN, not just pranced around a halter ring for a few minutes at a time, and that are sound conformationally and for riding. One of the nice, proportionate animals built out of circles rather than parallelograms, with enough butt to get up a steep hill easily and enough brain not to spook itself into the next county in the process.
But see that’s it – it’s not an either or. You want a butt and bone and good looks, look at what Sheila Varian breeds. And they ARE competitive at the A shows.
“Just because you breed Ibn National Champ to Bint National champ you will not always get Baby National Champ”
That’s why Lasma donated a whole bunch of 2 year old geldings to 4H in the mid 80s. No one was supposed to tell or know where they came from, but some turned out really nice (one I remember in particular was a great barrel horse!) and folks would be leaning on the rail saying “Isn’t that one of them Lasma colts?” “Yep.”
There is a reason to preserve some of the rarer breeds and lines with in a breed. Once those genetics are gone, the world loses some traits that may be valuable for disease resistance, qualities other than what is in fashion today, and other genetic factors that may be of use in future times. Diversity is very important in animals and plants. Farmers are finding that people do want to eat meat and dairy products from breeds that have fallen out of fashion because of monoculture trends in modern farming, and are bringing back some of the older and less known breeds of cattle, hogs and sheep.
Good for those who do breed and preserve older bloodlines of horses (and other animals). I could care less about showing, myself, so it’s okay with me if some horses can’t win in the show ring. As long as the breeding is done responsibly and no horses suffer, why criticize the preservationists? They are preserving a genetic bank that may have value in the future, if not now.
I think the genetic diversity thing is often blown way out of proportion. How unique are any of these bloodlines, really?
Anyway, if diversity in order to lead to better genetics is the point, I can’t imagine how having every freaking sire line to *Raffles produces that, can you?
Is there a place in which to place photos or is that up to you Fugly? Thanks. Off to my very favorite “Preservation Farm” in Alpine, CA (McNeil Arabian Horse Farm) for lunch with guess who?! A member of the Azraff/Ferzon consortium LOL.
Which is good, that is what it is about, get the word out and in the process hopefully get through to some of the people giving the rest of us a bad name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop breeding if you can’t feed/worm/vet/hoof care it. Don’t preserve horses to torture them, k thx bai!!!
This will be discussed
If you put in the direct link to a photo without any code, I will make it show up.
So, like, http://www.myhorses.com/picture.jpg
Why on earth would anyone need 22 stallions?! On their website, they still have stud fees listed, are they still actually wanting to breed?
From the article-
“I am as much a victim as the horses that have been victimized by this seizure,” Ehrman said. “There is so much ‘back story’ to this … but that is for the appeal process … .”
Ehrman took issue with photos of the horses that county officials shot during the seizure on June 9.
They are “badly taken and distorted photos designed to elicit pity and do not accurately portray the condition of the horses at seizure,” she said
**head explodes**
Oh yeah, everybody’s a victim. I can’t wait to see a picture of Ehrman. $50 says you can’t see HER hip bones.
I wonder if she is going to cook up some sob story about how she was sick or she needed to go out of town for a bit and left her horses in the care of a trusted friend…
boohoohoo.
What really “gets me” in these starvation/siezure cases is…WHY aren’t these owner/abusers hanging their heads in SHAME and thanking the authorities for FEEDING and caring for these poor, starved, neglected horses since the owner didn’t bother to? Instead, they spend their time and energy pointing out the bad photo angles (??) and claiming that there is a conspiracy (because someone wants to get their hands on these rare bloodlines) and another SIDE to the story. OMG
There’s only one side to this story…THE HORSE’S SIDE. Look at the photos!!
…and those photos at the time of seizure don’t lie…even with the bad angles (sarcasm here)…and it seems to be a common thread with all these abusers…have a crazy fit with a cazillion excuses when the animals are FINALLY seized!
It is so sad to see any horse in that state, but for me too this hits close to home. The first horse I owned was a Raffles/Gulastra bred mare–chunky, solid and amazingly 15.1hh. Before I was her retirement home, she had 7 foals. I hope someday to own a grandaughter or grandson of hers. I’ve seen a few grandaughters, and she really did pass on her looks and mind from the sound of things.
If these guys have personalities anything like my girl did, I pray that each and every one of them finds a wonderful home, as they truly need that to thrive.
These horses all seem pretty small and with a minimum bid of $250 I wonder whether they are really in any danger of going to kill considering the meat men can get big fat horses anywhere for nothing. Seems more likely some could end up with another BYB.
I also dont see the point of seizing if the authorities arent going to at least try to insure their future safety. We had a case here several years ago where a group of horribly neglected horses were seized.
It generated great community interest and made the news regularly for a long time. About 7 months later, when the horses were all fat and happy and the headlines had faded, per state law they were sent to the local livestock auction.
Sometime after that it came out they were all purchased by a known kill buyer and had long since been sent to slaughter.
So the whole point of the initial seizure was what???????
Kudos to Texas for putting the horses up for auction before the state has to put many thousands of dollars in to their care and feed, and then GIVE THEM BACK TO THE OWNER, as happened in an earlier blog. At $250 minimum bid, they will NOT go to the killers, IMHO, as they’re TOO skinny! Did see a nice horse that I would take home…had nice lines even if it’s ribs showed. Hate to read this but it’s happening over and over and over. And with all sorts of animals. How can we better educate the public? Put a license-to-own on all living creatures? This economy hasn’t helped either, but a little common sensegoes a long way. Like DON’T BREED if you CAN’T SELL! Sell cheaper if you need the money for feed for the rest of the herd. Gad…simple logic…
I wouldn’t want a ‘super linebred” horse of any breed, but a stocky welsh sized arab is probably the easiest keeper on earth with iron feet if there is any quality at all. Sturdy, lots of endurance, sure footed. If these guys recover well, they might be cute trail horses, but it looks dismal.
Someone in my area had too many minis and called the SPCA for help before the horses got in bad shape. The owners were older and did not have money or energy to handle so many. Of course their big mistake was letting them continue breeding. Horses were getting thin, not starving, feet never trimmed but nothing terrible because the horses had room to walk around. I’m sure they were wormy, but not as bad as if they were tightly penned. The herd had not been handled AT ALL, so that was the biggest challenge to people who adopted them. The owners names were not publicized, and they did not get in any trouble because they asked for help before things got out of hand. It can be done Krazy Breeders!
Good on the local sheriff for using a minimum bid and an application for purchasing the horses that details the condition they were seized in, recommends gelding the stallions, and so on and so forth. Dare I hope they’ll also release some of them to rescues that can care for them and actually adopt them out with some groceries and training already attached? Of course with recent events in the Pac-NW area maybe I shouldn’t be hoping these guys land at a rescue.
If I were in Texas and could spend the money on board for another horse, I’d be at that auction with my $250 in hand to pick up a short, fat-necked Arabian. No, they don’t do much in the show ring, but I bet with mileage and gentle handling some of these guys would be adorable kids’ ponies that can pack the kiddies around a few crossrails and then go 5-10 miles on the trail safely. My first mare was a very flashy hunter pony who happened to be a Polish Arabian (not short or fat-necked at all) so I have a soft spot for all Arabians. I’ve known a few in this mold and they aren’t athletic, but they do tend to be smart and sweet.
And I wanted to add – I LOVE Sonny who you keep advertising at the MidAtlantic horse rescue. If I didn’t live in Western Canada I’d be on a road trip to get him! He looks like such a sweetheart!
OK I posted this on the ABN board also, but offer stands for anyone who is a regular commenter that Fug or others here can vouch for as a good home for a horse–there appear to be some pregnant mares in the bunch, especially the bay girl in the slideshow here and on the rescue’s site. If you go to the auction and pick up a pregnant (or appears to be pregnant, probably won’t be an opportunity to palpate and confirm at an auction) mare and send me a picture of her with you in her new home, I will Paypal you $100 toward her care. An ABN poster offered to match that, but that was on ABN for members there in good standing, so she would have to decide about extending that to anyone outside that.
I like that bay mare. The one at 1:21?
Sigh~
OneMuddyTB,
How very kind of you. A starved Arabian in Texas thanks you!
I may be a diehard romantic, but I try to contain it and I think the world would be a better place if more people would do the same. My personal example — I am a sucker for Akhal Tekes. I grew up in Bulgaria, learned on one, and the whole lean, sexy greyhound look still gets me every time. I love their color, I even like their stubborn, flighty psychotic intelligence.
BUT. If I ever get one, I will do so knowing that romanticism aside, all that’s really left of the old Turkmen breeding is the metallic color. Many of the real Tekes got eaten when the communists moved in (quite literally, lots of very depressing history behind the politics of it) and the Turkmen were not particularly romantic about horse breeding either — if it lived, survived in battle, stayed sound and didn’t try to kill you, it was a good horse.
And they’re failing to profitably revive and popularize the breed in Europe now because they’re failing Marketing 101 — find a niche. They keep trying to sell them as dressage horses because of ONE sire, ONE — Absent, who wasn’t really a type-y Teke anyway, but a Russian-bred one. Endurance, I’d get, even eventing and jumping, since they’re bold, nearly nuts horses. But dressage? Meh.
Sorry for the digression. IMHO, It sounds to me like lovers of this little line of Arabs we’re talking about here would do well to focus on selling temperament, soundness and movement and churning out fabulous well-trained kids’ horses that keep going and going. I watch people bravely defend “their” breeds and that’s fine, but let’s be realistic — if we love our breeds, we become ambassadors by showing them at their best, in the discipline they have a chance in, be it endurance, competitive, trail, dressage, whatever.
There are no Super Miracle Horses out there that can do it all, so surely we should try to be breed friends without being breed fanatics.
Kotka.. I was priveleged to ride an Akal-Teke a couple of times; beautiful palomino mare that was at my mentor’s farm for trail training. Oh, she was a looker.. and she was sweet as could be. And, oh, could she move! Those two rides left me with HUGE affection for the breed as a whole (now who’s making sweeping ‘breed generalizations!?)
Heck, I’ll join you on the sweeping generalizations — I love them, too. But lately I’m starting to see BYB Tekes on the market (not many thankfully, as a horse they’re not that accepting of human idiocy) … this whole Nez Perce Horse business strikes fear into most of us who like Russian sport horses. Best of all (feel the sarcasm) they’re naturally thin, which is apparently an excuse for them to be a set of ribs on sticks in some parts. Bah.
Someday, I’ll win the lottery and get one. I’m rather fond of http://www.karakumstud.com/web/karakum.nsf/OurHorses/8ABC5BA3B83570D9C1256D37002FEC24
or especially http://www.karakumstud.com/web/karakum.nsf/OurHorses/AB763A48B630EB75C1256CF90048EDB6
and at least you know they don’t get started at 2 like the nez perce bunch. It’s good to dream.
Kotka, I share a history with you. I’m so sorry this happened to you directly. The stinkin’ Commies seized and slaughtered most of Eastern Europe’s horses, including my own family’s.
There are stories of women linking arms to block the roads while the Soviets were leading the horses away for slaughter in Russia.
It’s one of the points I bring up when I’m in an anti-slaughter debate. Seizing and killing our horses was so demoralizing, it ripped out the soul of Eastern Europe. Killing your horses is a brutal and cunning enemy maneuver. I believe horse slaughter rips the soul out of ANY country.
If you have Canadian friends, ask them to write their MP re: the new anti-slaughter Bill C-544. PLEASE don’t waste time with online petitions. Real letters and hard copy petitions only.
Sadly, this isn’t a “little” line of Arabs: 25 years ago in this country, they sold for BIG money, depending on how popular the breeder and how rich the buyer. Many celebrities owned Polish and Crabbet horses.
They’re really fine critters when bred, conditioned & trained correctly. Unlike these poor crooked legged wrecks.
Oh, and I’ve been intrigued by the exotic Akhal Teke look for YEARS.
Then I read the super sad story about the (Prime Minister?) who was the main custodian and promoter of the breed, who was defeated in a coup and his well-bred horses starved, neglected and killed. http://www.gsuttle.free-online.co.uk/geldy.htm
Sad to think that such an unusual breed has been diluted, but I’m also a history geek who sheds a little tear every time an old house gets vinyl siding.
I know I’m late for the party but I thought I’d mention that Akhel-Tekes may well find their “niche” in endurance if Jill Thomas has her way here in the UK. She keeps hers just up the road from where I live and they should be competing soon if they are not already. She used to use the egyptian bred geldingbut he’s coming up for retirement so she bought some AT youngsters.
OMG that vid broke my heart. I am in a tender mood today, and thinking about how I left a new plant in my car too long. The poor thing wilted and I had to cut it back to half. Two weeks later it’s slowly recovering. I look at that plant on a near-daily basis and feel guilty. And I kill and eat plants on a daily basis. We all do.
HOW on earth do you see your HORSES waste away like this and feel and do nothing?! I just can’t imagine.
She’s whinging, “I’m a victim…” Now doesn’t that just go with the name of the farm, Living Waters. Sounds like one of those right wing fundamentalist pseudo-’Christians’ whose religion is spreading like wildfire, and yet they whine about being “persecuted.” Arrrrrrgh, I hate that mentality! NO, YOU’RE THE PERPETRATOR, NOT THE VICTIM.
NO, YOU’RE THE PERPETRATOR, NOT THE VICTIM.
They should have to write that on the chalkboard 500 times!
*golf clap*
It seems like nowadays, people try to slap the “old fashioned Arab” label on horses who have absolutely nothing going for them.
I’ve seen pics of TRUE old fashioned arabs, and those were some pretty horses. Thicker necked and not big trotting like today’s performance horses, but still had balance, correct basic conformation, etc…
It makes me *headdesk* every time my friend refers to her arab and half arab as “old fashioned”. They are both horses who in this market would probably only be given away, or sold for under $1000. Both have lovely nests, NO shoulder, and weak, poor hind ends! That is NOT an old fashioned arab. That’s a really bad MODERN Arab.
1. YET ANOTHER horsefarm hell whose owners have given it a name that (they hope) makes them appear to be Very Good Christians. Living Water… that’s a phrase oft bandied about by funkamentalists who are religious, but perhaps not very christlike when it comes to behavior.
2. A horse’s value is the point at which “how much someone is willing to part with it” and “how much someone is willing to pay for it” meet. The rest is just… petty details. Doesn’t matter what the bloodlines are, or the amount that has been ‘put into it’ (via training, shoes, etc etc etc) If “how much they offer” matches or exceeds “how much the seller wants” THAT is the horse’s value in the marketplace. (My horses are worth 4.2 trillion dollars, cash, apiece.)
3. There are horses who could be valued at ‘their weight in gold’ that live their lives without being shown. Ever. That’s not saying junk should be bred to junk – because then, all you get is junk. Both of mine have forebearers with a lot of excellent traits — and because they came from very good/excellent stock, and were handled SANELY from birth, they have turned out quite well. I don’t believe that ‘the show ring’ should be the only goal for either dogs or horses… or any other critter.. if it were, there might not be affordable options for those who have no interest in winning anything, but huge interest in having healthy, sane companions who can do what is asked of them… be it ‘be dependable on the trail’, ‘take care of the elderly’, pull this old-timey farm implement around ’cause I want to go petrol-free’ or ‘lick me all over my face when I get home from work.. for as many happy, healthy years as possible’.
(yes… my dogs lick me all over my face.. my gelding, however, is only allowed to lick arms. My mare has no interest in licking anything but a carrot… but she has other valuable skills, like mugging for carrots!)
I *heart* you.
In an agape-filled, noncreepy way of course.
A child safe, husband safe, old person safe, fun on the trail lovemuffin is worth a gajillion bazillion bucks, always.
OH MY GOD, How did I miss this all of this? I live near Farmersville and I know of Audrey Ehrman. About 5 years ago, a woman at my old barn was friends with her. I never met her but I heard of her. The stories about how she lived, with no electricity or plumbing in her trailor, were insane. I never saw any of her horses because she wouldn’t bring any of them to the shows, always said that she couldn’t afford it. I had no idea that she had that many horses. I always had a bad feeling about her. I stopped speaking to the woman from my barn after she gave her a mare. I did not know where her barn was but I’m pretty sure that she changed the name of her “business”. I have never hear of Living Waters so that must be pretty new. The scary thing is that I don’t see the mare that she was given or the foal that she had. I wonder if she didn’t make it out.
Why don’t we ever hear about quarter horses being rescued or seized in large numbers from ranches? I know they go to slaughter in very high numbers, so what gives? It seems like only the Arabians ever get attention. Don’t get me wrong….I like Arabians but I’m thinking about getting a QH in a couple of years, and rescuing one would be nice. Must have papers though. This will be a family horse and we won’t play with HYPP.
Ok Fugly, here are just a couple photos (I could provide you with enough to fill a book)
of some ‘preservation’ horses of mostly Gainey/Payne breeding which is very close to Azraff/Ferzon and these are all heavily either *Raffles or Skowronek bred.
Skowronek was the sire of *Raffles. The grey mare is 23 this year, she is named Lacinda and she was named after the rider “Lacinda Green”.
Also we have my 30% Skowronek stallion here who is really heavily linebred and really a blast from the past.
He goes to training November 1st in Stockton, CA at Los Acres. I will not stand him at public stud until either 2011 or 2012.
Hope these show you at least that they can be well conformed and useful riding horses and good companions.
All have amazing and sweet dispositions, highly trainable and athletic in different areas depending on conformation and movement.
Here are links, the grey is 22 in the photos. The bays are both around 5 or 6 in the photos. And a liver chestnut who is 3 this year, a filly who just sold to a lady who will trail ride the heck out of her.
OMG…. can I save some of those pictures? Those are amazing horses, and so lovely!
OMG I love that bay!!!
Your horses are lovely! I have moved on from purebred Arabs, but am still a fan!
Nice horses! Good job training the ones you mentioned. Why is the light bay not being broke to ride? What if you get in a bind? It could be dangerous for him. So many Arabians advertised so cheaply around here because they were never broke and their owners fell on hard times.
This is for floridafarmmom, I just read your question of why the light bay won’t be broke to ride. I should never say never but as far as I know, that is the one in the bunch I showed that is not my horse and he is owned by a long term (50 years) breeder who is 80 this year
His manager could very well get him broke but as far as I know that won’t happen.
I don’t have a reason for you, this wonderful man has been breeding athletic and sound horses that of course at one time were shown and ridden but over the years he has stopped riding as to his knees being bad and other things.
The really wonderful things about the arabians from this particular ranch (and many others out there if you look) is they are what I refer to as ‘born broke’ and have wonderful dispositions. I have gotten 2 over 20 year old mares from this man and both were a breeze to break . I have a funny story about one…her name is Danny Rosezon. I got Danny and she was never broke, she looks a lot like the light bay stallion but a mare (his horses are very consistent in looks and type depending on the color) and so at 21 she came to me unbroke and a bit stubborn and pushy (just a bit). Per the usual at my place she had to be broke (unless they are lame) so I told the trainer “If she is anything like the others of this lineage she was born broke’ (this does not mean they are broke but basically you can get on and ride and they just accept it as they are so wonderful) So the trainer who was more of a quarter horse western guy said “Ok great!!’
I came out a few days later and he was riding her around and he came up to me and said “Well, she may be broke but she was sure hard to steer!!!” Well turns out he had just gotten on her and rode as he thought ‘born broke’ meant ‘broke’ LOL…..so when I told him he was a little shocked he had broke her himself in one hour.
That is not how every horse there is but 95% are.
These are total and utter love bugs. The light bay stallion should be broke and do working western!!! But whether his owner can be up for that, I doubt it
He is in good hands though, not to worry.
I’m sorry I did not include in my post with the photos that Lacinda is broke to ride and carries all types of riders and does it with the tolerance of a saint. The black bay will be broke this year and the chestnut filly as I said will be the trail companion of a woman who does heavy duty trials (almost endurance…but maybe not as competition). The light bay is not due to be broke nor will he ever be unless sold most likely but he lives the life of riley!!! I have watched him levade for a few seconds at a time, look around….then get down… by the fence….his hindquarter is amazing. I wanted to add this so people understand these horses are athletic as well as attractive and kind natured.
It no doubt helps that your horses have been *fed* and *trained* and *well-maintained, like with wormer and stuff* so that they look and feel great. Don’t know if these poor 47 will ever reach the condition of yours but I sure hope people will try.
Who are the gypsy heart horse rescue? I haven’t seen them mentioned at all on this post, yet they seem to be somehow in charge. I’ve never heard of them, has anyone?
I love the *Raffles bred horses. All three of mine have had similar breeding. My current 21 yo gelding has *Raffles on his papers once and further back a few more times. I tend to like the ones with Azraff, a son of Raffles. And that will be what I’m looking for with my next horse, but that hopefully won’t be for a while yet. I can’t afford another while my guy is still living, and I hope we have at least a few years left!
Those poor babies break my heart. Unfortunately, I’m too far away and as broke as everyone else.
OK, I don’t have time to go thru ALL the comments, so I will just say my piece (you knew I would).
Seems to me that ever since the 1980s, when Arabians were promoted to wealthy people as “investments,” there’s been a certain mentality that Arabian Bloodlines Du Jour = MEGABUXXXXXX.
And really, remember back then, “Pure Polish”/Crabbett horses were VERY trendy??? And now everybody wants Straight Egyptian? I will say that there IS a grain of truth in “we must preserve certain lines” because the Trendmeisters certainly are NOT. Because the top echelon of monied breeders just go in for the popular bloodlines, NOT the quality horses. And in a decade or so, no one will want a snaky freakazoid hydrocephalitic looking thing. They’ll want an actual USING horse. Someone like, say, Sheila Varian. Or Bazy Tankersley. Of course, THESE are the people who need to keep these athletic bloodlines going, not crapass nutjobs with delusions of grandeur like these “people.”
Really, a LOT of Arab people aren’t into park horses, halter horses, English pleasure horses, etc. They’re into Endurance, they’re into other trail disciplines, they’re into actual performance events. And for that, they’re going to look for so-called “chunky” horses who have a lot of athletic ability. I for one am a real sucker for a compact Arab with an archy little neck, powerful hindquarters, natural high tailset, and cute little head with big soft eyes. See also: Quick Silver Bey. The photos I see out of the UK, Australia, Germany… those Arabs look like real athletes, not the snaky Barbie doll thingies. In fact I believe the UK passed a law prohibiting “face grease” and other American dumb stuff in the show ring?
I’d love a Raffles-bred horse. I’d love a Bask-bred horse. I’d love a Khemosabi horse.
(ahem, for my daily analogy, I know you like TB-looking quarter horses, Cathy, but there are also a LOT of QH folks out there who don’t do pleasure – they do roping, barrels, etc., and prefer the Foundation look you so much hate. Just because a breed or bloodline is off your own personal radar, don’t discount it completely – do a little research first. Your corner of the West Coast is not quite as influential as it might think it is.)
*Applause Applause…. couldn’t have said it better myself.
I have always had a problem with how humans seem to need to “exaggerate” what they get their fingers on. I attended the Midwest Horse fair in WI this year. As we were walking through the stallion barn my daughter and I met a lady walking what looked like a beautiful tall leggy saddlebred stallion through the aisle to the showring. I said to my daughter, “Isn’t that a pretty saddlebred?” The gal leading the horse turned and said, “THIS is a MORGAN!” I was completely amazed and saddened, it didn’t look like any of the Morgans I grew up with or had seen shown – compact beautiful horses. All I could respond to her was, “That’s too bad.” I never would have guessed that horse was a Morgan.
I am one of those who like the look of that bulldog foundation QH. I expect my QH to have cow, speed, and be able to work all day. I want good strong feet and lots of bone. If you want a TB, or a Saddlebred, or an Arab – or anything else, go get one. They are all great breeds in their own right – that’s the beauty of having different breeds. But I would prefer you leave my QH built for what it was intended, what I want to use it for, and the way I want it to look. I know those foundation horses aren’t the prettiest, but pretty really is as pretty does. Because I know people disagree with me, I am glad that there are those who are interested in maintaining what I want. Do I think I/they need to breed a million of them – absolutely not. But do I think I/they need to stop breeding them completely because some don’t think they are marketable – absolutely not. It’s not about walking away from what’s no longer the fad, it’s about being responsible while maintaining it.
I don’t have an issue with these breeders wanting to maintain certain lines, my issue is that they didn’t do it selectively or responsibly. It doesn’t matter what you are trying to save, if it’s starving, you have failed.
“All I could respond to her was, “That’s too bad.†”
Amen, sister. Keep up the good work!!
I’m literally 30 minutes from Farmersville and i have NEVER heard of this place before… heck. i even asked someone from Farmersville and they had no idea. It’s also not comforting to me that i haven’t heard of that rescue either. and i’ve lived in this area for 20 years. I would so rescue on of these babies if i had the money. i know someone out here that has about 300 acres… but does the typical all grass and then hay in the winter… so i don’t think i can talk them into adopting!
I have my mare in Blue Ridge, about 10 minutes from Farmersville. I haven’t heard of the rescure before either. I’ll have to look into it further.
Let me know what you find out.. cause it’s kinda strange we both live by there and have never heard of it!
I’m all for preserving a breed, but honestly! THIS is why people should have a license to breed. My family bred horses for years, but we had the funds, the property, the staff (meaning us), and the proper vet care necessary to run a successful breeding operation. And we didn’t even breed every year! We bred our mares according to several factors (the number one being demand), and we gelded more often than not. There were plenty of times when we’d go a year or two without breeding because there was no need.
My mom always said “If hope could feed horses, the only time you’d ever see a hip or rib is on an X-ray.”
The dark side of “licensing to breed” can be seen in Switzerland. All foals are inspected. The ones who don’t make the grade, are ordered to slaughter by government officials. How would we like that?
Good God. One line on the report just lept out. Said trainwreak even with nothing else: 22 STALIONS and 25 mares. Unless the person who wrote it doesn’t know the difference between a gelding and a stallion it doesn’t look like the gelded anything.
Ok now read the other comments, sorry had to post about the 22 first, my head was about to explode.
My 2 cents – If someone wants to preserve a bloodline then great, do so, with 2 or 3 foals a year and a breeding break in hard times. Oh and from the comments (I am not really up to scratch on arab bloodlines) they needed marketing differently. If you are breeding shortarse chunks with a great temperement market them as such. Get them into a few shows with kids up or into endurance or a bit of 4H and market them a super fun athletic beasties. Don’t try to market a solid little critter as a skinny tall swan. Oh and incidently I personaly would rather have a short compact athlete than anything that is currently winning at halter.
Some people have a serious case of stupid.
OK. I have aproblem with this. It’s like the old “She’s just skinny because she is old ” excuse. Only this time Stupid has a better excuse. She decided to raise TWO babies. Yes, it’s her fault she’s so thin.
Really, this ad should read “We couldn’t be bothered to feed and support her while she was raising two babies for us ” AND “we just had to rebreed her before actually feeding her up to a healthy weight”
What a ridiculous arbitrary price too.
http://houston.craigslist.org/grd/1833039486.html
I have a “Special” horse?!?! Really?
I have a Raffles bred, reg. 1/2 Arab mare out of Shugak. Got her in trade 2 years ago as my first horse for making some curtains for a fellow’s motorhome. One of the best deals of my life! She was originally a hunter/jumper for his daughter before she went off to college.
Now my 14 yo daughter, who just started riding last year, has her running 17s on the cloverleaf at the barrel racing Saddle Club we belong to. She’s safe, sane, smart, pleasing to the eye and I can put just about anyone on her and not worry. She’s about the least mare-ish mare I have ever met.
I did argue for genetic diversity, and I stand by my position. I am concerned that the free market, which favors the trendy of the moment, does crowd out some valuable traits in horse breeds that may be needed in the future: good feet and legs, endurance, temperament, for instance. Case in point, modern TBs are crossed too often with lines that produce crooked legs and poor feet because of the speed factor. Finding some of those older lines that are bred for distance is getting harder. But having said that, and being an Arab fan, Raffles lines have huge problems. As Arab historians know, the introduction of the Polish lines into the English breeding programs was quite controversial at the time. Raffles himself was 13.2, and that is too small for most adults in America today. He did produce crooked legs and weaker hind ends (I owned a horse with probably five crosses to Raffles, and he was 14hh with cow hocks, offset knees, long pasterns, and had a weak hind end. He was cute and sweet as the day is long, but a conformational disaster.) So I do agree with Cathy in that Raffles isn’t all that special.
My point is, despite that, preservation is needed for genetic diversity. What sells and what is trendy in the show ring should not be the only criterion for breeding. However, producing animals that have poor phenotypes just for the sake of breeding them is also shortsighted. I worked for many years for an Al Khamsa Egyptian Arab breeder, and his stallion, although lovely, consistently put weak hocks on his babies. Not cool. They did, however, have great temperaments. The problem is, to make strong hybrids you have to have the homozygous parents at some point. This stallion would have been great to outcross to mares with better legs.
In short, don’t let genetic lines die out because they aren’t trendy, but be selective in what you are preserving! That takes some discipline that most people don’t have.
And obviously, if you are not taking care of your horses, you shouldn’t be breeding or preserving anything!!! Leave that to people who can afford it and have some self control. Just didn’t want to lose the point of this thread, which is shame on anyone who mistreats horses this way.
After reading through all the comments I have come to conclusion that the advice I was given as a child not to discuss religion or politics should be extended to horse breeds as well! Quarter horse, draft, Morgan, Arabian, TB, Welsh, Heinz 57, dog, cat, bird, or whatever species of animal you happen to breed, buy, or adopt YOU MUST FEED IT!! If you can’t feed your animals due to job loss, health problems, loss of interest, whatever contact a shelter, a rescue, SPCA, Humane Society. Starving to death is a horrible way to die. I would rather be PTS than die that way!
I am ecstatic to see there is an application for getting these seizure horses. It requires references from both vet and farrier, specifies maintenance of a 5 or better body condition, and strongly encourages gelding of stallions. Maybe I am naive but wouldn’t that mean that a KB would not get their hands on these horses?
faiteaccompli: what beautiful horses those are. i have owned arabs/part arabs for 41 years now. that blackbay is very nice, my favorite color, although i have never seen a good horse be a bad color (the old saw says!).
*Raffles was not crooked legged really (but his legs were not perfect, I know that)…I do not remember being offset as one of the issues (Someone in here said they were offset etc.) What has happened with *Raffles much like what happened with *Bask and other popular stallions (Padrons Psyche) is the was bred to crap as well as good mares and so you got some crap and you got some good stuff. By todays standards *Raffles would be quite a failure! Indeed he was chunky necked and pony sized (13.2 on a good day) and this is why most breeders used his blood for the beauty factor and crossed it with other things to get size or more correct conformation. He was the foundation to build on but hopefully you strive to get better not worse, right? So over the years I feel the horses with him in the pedigree have mostly gotten better!!
His sire Skowronek though was another story and VERY nice stallion, he still was short, but more like 14.1 or 14.2 I believe and while he was mutton withered and had some other small faults I think he was a much nicer horse than *Raffles which is why I try to focus more on Skowronek than *Raffles.
*Raffles was actually a handy riding horse though guys….here is a little blurb I found on him “Life in the United States
Upon his arrival in America, Raffles did not sire any purebred foals until 1938.[7] The popular explanation is that only after he was placed under a proper management regimen, did he turn out to be fertile.[8] However, there are other theories. According to Selby’s trainer, Jimmie Dean, after Raffles tested sterile at Ohio State University, Dean wondered if anxiety and tension was the source of the trouble. According to Dean, Raffles had endured poor handling, was distrustful of humans, and difficult to ride. With the assistance of Dean’s wife, Thelma, a skilled horsewoman in her own right, they spent many months gentling Raffles and gaining his trust. Thelma in particular spent many months simply taking him on low-stress, relaxing rides around the farm and surrounding land. After this retraining, he was put to a couple of pony mares in 1936, settled both mares, and thus, proven to be fertile, was bred to purebred mares in the 1937 breeding season. [3]
Yet another version claimed that Raffles was such an outstanding riding horse that he could not be spared for stud duties.[9] And indeed, he did well in the show ring. Awards and honors Raffles earned included the 1933 three-gaited championship at Nashville, Tennessee’s Nashville National horse show.[10] A final theory is that he was discounted as a breeding stallion, was viewed merely as a potential pony sire, and only used on purebred mares after the Arabian horse expert Carl Raswan urged Selby to do so.[11]
However, once put to stud, he went on to have a tremendous influence on Arabian horse breeding in the United States, siring 122 foals.[1] In addition to horses he produced by outcrossing on Arabians of other bloodlines, breeders also had very good results by linebreeding his offspring to those of Raseyn, another Skowronek son who had also been purchased from Lady Wentworth and was imported to the USA by W.K. Kellogg. Among his better-known offspring were Indraff, Rapture, and Azraff.[8]
He broke a hind leg in 1950, when kicking his stall.[12] He recovered and shortly thereafter was purchased by Alice Payne for her Asil Ranch in Chino, California, where he was stalled next to another Skowronek son, Raseyn, whom Payne had obtained from the Kellogg ranch in his old age.[13] Raffles died on May 11, 1953.[3]
PS : Charm, of course you can save those photos, I am sorry most of them have non groomed, dirty horses as they were snapped either right before or right after a roll in the dirt!! Some of the horses are much prettier in person!!
That is what I love about these lines though, those motors are big.
The liver chestnut filly has a QH hiney on her and one person I know (arab friend) did not like her for that reason
Fugly, if you like TB’s the arab I have you would like is by Dakar El Jamaal and out of a Russian bred mare. He has such good substance and bone and is so tall for just a 2 year old. All the warmblood and TB people rush right over to him and love on him. I did not post him as he is not at all in the realm of our discussion bloodlines wise.
If anyone googes *Raffles they will see photos of him, then google Skowronek, I prefer Skowronek but do appreciate the influence *Raffles has had on our breed.
Those horses at that auction tomorrow WILL come around and look very similar to the horses in my photos, perhaps not exactly the same as I am sure the leg issues are there from neglect but very similar
The man who bred all the horses I posted has been doing so for 50 years and is a master alchemist on how to linebreed, linebreeding is best left to people like him, I let him guide me but don’t try it much on my own without his input.
Good luck all to the horses tomorrow. If I was not in danger of being over horsed myself (already have my share of cast off senior mares) I’d buy one.
I am so disgusted by people with large collections of starving animals. I don’t know whether this particular woman is a hoarder, a trashy, greedy person, someone with a get-rich-quick mentality — whatever her problem, I hope a judge sentences her to no animal ownership for years. Forever would be nice, but I doubt that will happen.
And what’s with the “poor me” attitude? Over and over again, these people whine about being victims. Would that attitude be tolerated if she were starving her children? I hope no one buys into that.
I think a lot of these deadbeats with the starving herds have a get-rich-quick mentality. They don’t want to realize that to make any business work, whether it is Amway or horse breeding, you have to have a business plan which includes a reliable market analysis, a budget, cash reserves and credit, and the personality, will and ability to do the actual work necessary to run that business. People who work hard and have a clue are never stuck with 50 starving horses. It’s always some schmuck sitting around in a filthy house whining about her health problems and bragging about how spiritual she is… Caring for horses is hard, daily, physical work. If you cannot do it or pay for it, get rid of the animals! Get out of that business and then you can sit around your filthy living room and feel sorry for yourself all you want! C’mon! We all get old; many of us have health issues. That is no excuse to be irresponsible. And I believe strongly that this Audrey Ehrman didn’t have an efficient, profitable, clean and well-run business ten years ago and suddenly get old, fat, unhealthy, whatever, and have it all go down hill. Dollars to doughnuts she always had a mess on her hands. Ick.
While I don’t necessarily believe these bloodlines are rare, they are very nice horses – our rescue is a double Gai Campaigner grandson, heavy Skowronek, http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/asil+kontiki couldn’t be a sweeter horse and super athletic, he loves to jump, did endurance (until we found out he has a heart arythmia – he was a rescue from a hoarding situation and vets think it was the starvation, lack of Vit. E that contributed) so while they aren’t your typical show horses, they are great lines with good bone, feet and temperament. I wish I lived closer and I’d go get one to rehab! I was never a gray arab fan until we got this one and now I’d go look for a close relative of his for an endurance horse. He’s 13.3 and has a trot to DIE for and the prettiest face on the property!!! He can trot as big as my friend’s 16.0 arab! If you look at some of the well known endurance horses, they are heavily CMK horses. One of the best – check out HIS AERC record – RT Muffin! Amazing CMK horse!
If a line or breed of horse is extremely rare or special, someone with a lot of money who is dedicated to the well-being of the horse and is a responsible owner/breeder will continue the line/breed. End of story. If you do not have the money or the ability to take care of the horses properly and put them into training(to me, a horse with poor bloodlines, decent conformation, athletic ability, and proper training is worth may more than a horse with spectacular bloodlines and decent conformation who has mearly spent his days eating, sleeping, and pooping). If someone truly cares about preserving that certian line or breed, they will make sure that their horses are recieving proper vet and farrier services on a regular basis, a proper diet for their specific needs, bimonthly deworming, daily exercise, training, and other care that is needed to assure that the horse is healthy, happy, and most of all, has a future that does not include double decker trailers or slaughterhouses. I absolutely adore the Saddlebred mare that I ride in lessons(Mrs. Doubtfire from Saddlebred Rescue:), but I’m pretty sure there is not a huge market for short and chestnut Saddlebreds without the Saddlebred’s animated action. That is why we don’t breed her. It is that simple! Gezzzz people!!!!
“I absolutely adore the Saddlebred mare that I ride in lessons(Mrs. Doubtfire from Saddlebred Rescue:), but I’m pretty sure there is not a huge market for short and chestnut Saddlebreds without the Saddlebred’s animated action. That is why we don’t breed her. It is that simple!”
It is, indeed. I mean, any horse can have SUCH a cute personality that s/he wins fans. And heck, sometimes people like the crabby old bats (I have a soft spot for them myself!) But when you are looking at breeding, you have to breed what is in demand unless your intent is to keep it forever and you have a reasonable, fact-based belief that you will be able to keep it forever. For example, if you are 65, guess what, you’re not going to be the one who keeps it forever!
Update: An injunction has been filed and a hearing will held this afternoon. The judge is Judge Ripple – Phone: 972-424-1460 ext. 3840. As of now, the AUCTION IS STILL ON – although the start time is changed to noon. The location is the Meyer’s Park horse barn.
Thanks for the Update.
I agree, if you are older please make a will that accounts for each and every animal you own!! Heck, even if you are younger.
Believe it or not there is a market for shorter arabs….my friend almost did not sell that chestnut filly I posted as she was too tall for the lady looking but she was just so in love with many other things about her she bought her despite her 15h stature (haha 15h is not big by you TB and SB people I know!!)
I am so sorry so many horses have fallen onto hard times, I have taken in those I can and even paid way too much for a Khemosabi daughter even though she is horrible legged and lame and can’t be ridden or bred…she is what I call a cookie snarfer and she can live out her days at my place. I paid 1500.00 for this mare in that condition just to get her out of the hands of the idiot who had her.
She will never be bred, no reason to pass on those super straight hocks.
Thanks for updating and I pray tonight for the horses at auction tomorrow. Poor babies.
I can’t agree that people will continue to breed wonderful things and reject not-wonderful things. If that were true, Cleveland Bays would not be endangered and halter quarter horses would not exist. People suck and they are stupid. If it weren’t for ONE GUY, real Morgans would have died out. It is important to preserve goodness regardless of trends in the show ring, because the show ring for some reason brings out a level of human perversity which is hard to explain on any level short of direct demonic possession. How else do you explain Big Lick?
However, it’s foolish to pretend that preserving untrendy great horses is anything other than a labor of love which costs an enormous amount of money. By definition you’re breeding something no one wants – that’s the whole reason it’s endangered in the first place.
“People suck and they are stupid… …How else do you explain Big Lick?”
Can I quote you?
That’s funny you bring up Cleveland Bays. Despite the fact the Prince of Wales has some, and a few folks are breeding them, they are still not at all popular. I knew one that was imported from Canada, she was a nice horse. The problem is they don’t have anything that really distinguishes them, other than being really tall. But until they prove themselves as a horse that can contribute to modern sport, they will continue to languish in obscurity.
I agree with the Alliecat who said if you want to preserve a breed of livestock that doesn’t have a place in modern agriculture, assume it’s not for profit and do the best you can to make sure those animals are taken care of properly.
On a more hopeful note, I bet that some of us here would take one of the horses being auctioned if we had a chance to get one after today — maybe those who attend and buy can let everyone know if there’s an opportunity to rehome them later on?
I went to the sheriff’s site to check out the FAQ … this is just sad:
“Q. Are the horses gentle and easy to handle? Do they halter and lead?
A. Most of the horses don’t appear to have ever been handled. However, there is variation amongst the horses regarding behavior. Some appear to have had some amount of handling where others do not appear to have had any handling at all. 2-3 of the horses can be haltered and led. Collin County makes no claim or representation about the behavior of any of these horses.”
Starved and unhandled, that’s quite a project for most folks.
Any update to the outcome of the auction???
The majority of the horses sold- the top seller went for $6,000! Most were between $250 and $500. A handful of the older stallions were tough to get bids on, and eventually went to a rescue. Now there are some Texas people a little ruffled by the ad the rescue placed on CL:
“http://lubbock.craigslist.org/grd/1847661663.html
They went and got some of those rescued arabians, stallions even and they did not already have the means to house or feed them???”
Here is a quote from that craig list page: We got 4 stallions from this seizure.Some of the worst ones. I need good ,(used) panels and hay. I fully mean to buy these items so you few idiots stop writing ugly emails.jjeeezz .I did not ask these to be given to us. We are glad to pay if price is reasonable..Thank you Ramona.
Update: Many of these horses ended up in the hands of a well know rescue and in the hands of Toskhara Arabians who are working to get them healthy and re-home the ones that can be re-homed. Contrary to “popular” opinion, in the opinion of the owners of Toskara, who are quite well versed in what makes a good Arabian, these are well bred horse–many of whom are actually quite nice if in bad condition. Oh yes, Toskara Arabians are quite well known in the wninner’s circle.