Don’t tell ME we can’t change the world!
Jun 22 2010
First of all, apologies for the delays. I cannot use my normal posting screen since I tried to upgrade. On the plus side, I *can* apparently use the “quickpress” shortcut screen, so I am just going to use that and hope the content doesn’t come out looking too hideous!
All right, so what I want to talk about today is an incident that happened recently at an AQHA show. It is an incident that will surprise the heck out of a lot of you, who believe EVERYBODY in the AQHA show world is totally cool with the abuse and that there’s just no way in the world to change the way those shows get judged. Well, apparently at a recent Kansas show, one of the judges, Mary Ingwerson, spotted an exhibitor doing the crank & yank on their poor horse’s mouth, and – are you all sitting down? – actually stopped them and told them anyone abusing a horse would be REPORTED.
Yes. You heard me. This happened at an AQHA show. With an AQHA judge. I’m DYING to hear who it happened TO! I didn’t get that part of the story yet but if you know, please post. Pleaaaase. I hope it was a trainer, bahahahaha! But if it was an amateur or youth, I hope they are good and embarrassed and will think hard about what they were doing and why they were doing it.
Anyway, Ms. Ingwerson, YOU GO GIRL! Let’s hope some of your peers will have the guts to follow your lead, because, honestly, the crank-n-yank crap is just plain embarrassing. Everybody knows it’s wrong. It looks like crap in front of spectators. And we CAN stop using it, it just takes that one person who has the guts to make the first move – so let me applaud Ms. Ingwerson for being that person!
232 comments to “Don’t tell ME we can’t change the world!”
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That’s good to hear. Hopefully it will get the ball rolling. I hope it was a trainer. It would have so much more impact. Either way though… YAY!
As the owner of a TB, I have no direct experience with the AQHA, however, I do not approve of much of what I learn about that organization. (It’s bad enough the AQHA supports slaughter…) That being said, kudos to Ms. Ingwerson, may this be the start of a wonderful trend!!
For those of us out of the horse show loop (I’ve never seen halter in my life), what is a “crank and yank”?
It’s a western pleasure ‘method’ of training, in which essentially you constantly and repeatedly crank your horse’s head tight to it’s chest or to the side, and yank hard over and over on its mouth. Usually the horse is wearing either a curb bit, or a very tastefully disguised wire snaffle.
It wouldn’t bother me so much if it WERE a training method, but the key to success with this method seems to be to make the horse so intimidated and so sore in the mouth that it won’t EVER think of taking that one extra long step in its classes. Let alone put its ears above its withers.
It’s a bit tricky to catch unless you are knowledgeable about horses, because a trainer riding a horse in a curb bit can and will often bring their hands straight up, basically ‘hanging’ the horse with the bit, then letting it down once it has balanced itself. Not cruel, if done with feel and gentle soft hands, and released when the horse is comfortable and balanced.
So basically they took a perfectly legit motion, added ‘crank and yank’ to it, and turned it into a torture method.
The way you describe the *legit* use of hands that evolved into the crank-and-yank thing is interesting.
I am by no means a gaited horse expert, I’ve never shown in a breed show. But my TWH, I ride in a curb bit, and when her gait gets funky I use that exact method to ak her to even out- I pick my hands up (maybe 6″) and if necessary I shift my weight back onto my pockets a tad. I will also use a half-halt. This gets her to rebalance, it restores the even cadence to her gait, and it also gets her gait to be smoother if she’s getting a bit rough. If she’s getting excited over someting it helps refocus her attention on the job at hand.
If you’re a gaited horse rider, and you have not read Lee Ziegler’s book, Easy Gaited Horses, you should. That’s where I learned how to use my hand position and my center of balance to encourage the gait I desire in my walking horses.
When done properly this method is humane and the horses respond well to it. But to do it correctly you have to be sensitive, picking up only as much as is absolutely necessary, and releasing as soon as they start to rebalance and collect. If you overdo it or get aggrerssive with it, instead of giving the horse a gentle reminder that they need to refocus, you cause them pain and it accomplishes nothing. You wind up with a pissy, sour, frightened horse, and unfortunately, because of the tolerant nature of many gaited horses, they don’t fight back, they just cope with misery.
Easy Gaited Horses is a great book for ANY person to read– not just the gaited riders. It really is well written, with a lot of clear explanation of different gaits and how to get a good solid riding horse.
Yes, the motion you use is similar to what they do in the pleasure industry. To be honest, I think the ‘up’ motion of the hands comes more from the long reins. You can’t bring your hands back to your sides as easily due to the play in the reins, so you lift your hands instead.
Your are correct about the long reins, but it also has to do with the fact that a curb bit is a lever and raising the hands tips the lever. Trying to pull straight back against a curb will get you nowhere.. just look at all of those pictures of Rollkur horses where the rider has their hands low and wide, trying to pull the horse’s face down and in. The horses are usually just laying down against the pressure because that simply isn’t the proper use of the equipment, and there is no way for the horse to get a release.
its the same thing with my jumpers. pick the hands up, send the horse forward, halfhalt if necessary if the horse needs a reminder to get up, pay attention and balance.
the yank n’ crank is a similar perversion to how some hunter will sew-saw/bumpbumpbump on a horses mouth to get their head down. it originally came from dressage where riders hold and release (basically longerhalfhalts) to encourage a horse to give to the bit.
Sure. It bears noting that my (pleasure horse) trainer has a dressage background, which is probably why she has gotten my horse to do WP without cranking, yanking, tying his head to the rafters or any of that silly shit.
I think jumpers is a little different because you aren’t trying for a certain headset. I think raising your hands in this instance gives you a little more room to ask for direction and a little more leverage if you have a runaway pony ;P because your elbows are already bent, and it’s also better to come in and out of jumping position because you just have to lower the hands to neck and not push them forward. I know if I don’t raise my hands on the mare I ride in the jumper ring, she’ll get long and low and start dropping rails.
It’s a little ass-backwards because the jumpers are one of the most objective types of classes and the horses that do well have a high head carriage and a level-to-uphill top line. So why are low headsets so desirable? I don’t want to bash anyone with a horse with a super-low, *artificial*, headset, but, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, you look ridiculous.
I use almost the same method on my Hunt Seat horse, Zan, who is still in *partial* training. He has a tendency to throw his head down and start crow hopping, so I simply gently lift my hands until he stops, lower my hands, and move on. Same thing on my hunter-jumper gelding.
But, just to clear all that up, I simply lift up my hands, and I don’t yank on my horse’s mouth or hang on it at all. Just gently, softly, and slowly raise them so that he gets a small signal to lift up his head. He catches on quickly, and I don’t think it’s because he’s in pain. I think he catches on quickly because he gets what I’m trying to ask him to do and realizes that by raising his head to a comfortable and acceptable position, he gets a reward by me putting my hands down. =)
Was that understandable?
I want to second – or third – the suggestion of Lee Ziegler’s book. Full of common-sense training tips and TONS of information on how and why gaited horses move they way they do.
My new yearling colt (gelded!) is a Rocky Mountain gaited horse, and I’ll freely admit I don’t know a thing about gaited horses – but I’ve a couple years to learn ‘fore he goes under saddle. That book was recommended to me and I’ve just started reading it. I like very much what she has to say, especially after I went to one event with “mountain horses” and was a bit aghast at some of the riding – slumpy, feet forward, and more contact than I like to see (nothing cruel I think, just overly strong).
Thanks for that very clear explanation, Charm. I have never quite understood how it got abusive until you explained it. That really helped!
I believe that is basically ripping on the poor horse’s mouth/face with such *wonderful* bits <- note sarcasim. With or without *wonderful* bits. This is one of my biggest pet peeves. And than people wonder why their horse's have cold, unresponsive mouths, and are sour. Gee. Wonder why. I applaud the judge, more people need to step up to the plate and tell people they need to knock that shit off. I would be surprised if it wasn’t a trainer. I would have looooved to see the expression on the exhibitor’s face >:), who I’d bet had never been corrected. I absolutely hate AQHA, bet no one can guess why, if they started to actually put a stop abuse and investiagte any abuse by BNTs, and go anti slaughter (where do they think their crappy halter horses go? Soured horses who have been abused go? Oh wait I forgot it’s all about the registration $$$$$ and membership $$$$$, pump the horses in and out) than maybe I would start to like them. Yes someone please tell the person’s name so this way they get the punishment they deserve. I truely hope AQHA will nip this person in their butt and give them a punishment they won’t soon forget. NOT wrist slapping, no one learnes from that. Personally if it was a trainer how does 2 years suspension and not allowed to do anything with AQHA shows sound?
I’ve always pictured it as someone ‘cranking’ a bit in a horse’s mouth and for yanking well.. of course yanking on the reins/halter shank what have you. Like how you see terrible riders with long shank curb bits, used with high unstable hands. The horse twists his mouth/face into this awful look where you just know they’re feeling terrible pain.
ignore me if I’m totally wrong! ;P
Wow. I only wish more of them would stand up, especially in the TWH world.
OT, but wanted to point this out. Honestly, this pisses me off, but maybe you’ll have a different take, Fugs.
http://rtfitch.wordpress.com/2010/06/21/six-year-old-girl-refuses-to-put-down-ugly-duckling-foal/#comment-9959
Here’s the comment I left:
Kudos for wanting to help a foal that isn’t perfect, but question: if they can’t afford the $4000 surgery outright, are they going to be able to afford the long-term care this horse is going to need? If it’s going to have problems grazing, then extra time and money will be needed to keep it healthy, I imagine sinus and/or dental problems will pop up as it grows…I don’t know if they have really thought this one out. Just because he’s somewhat savable and romping with a little girl doesn’t mean that all will be rainbows and roses after the surgery. What happens when she gets older and possibly loses interest in horses when she discovers boys? And obviously this foal is being treated like a puppy rather than a foal because everyone feels sorry for him…what happens when his cute behavior becomes dangerous because he gets too big? This is an obvious lifelong commitment to a deformed animal…I hope the parents are prepared for this.
Also, just because they might need to put him down doesn’t mean he’ll end up in a slaughter plant. I don’t understand that assumption that’s being made here. They can always have him cremated or buried in a pet cemetery.
I agree with your opinion on the foal. I just hope if he can’t have a normal life and is abe to eat grass and otherwise function, they will do the humane thing and have him put to sleep. At the end of the article it appears as though the mother has already reached that conclusion.
I agree as well.
A severe wry nose isn’t just one surgery. It’s specialty dental care for the rest of its life, the intensive care of a toothless older horse for thirty or forty years, problems with breathing…
Did you catch the comment from the six year old girl? “We have a lot of fun playing games and he likes to chase me around the field. I love him lots and he gives me kisses and cuddles.†Parents of the year…
If they have the money, time, and energy to devote to a very large deformed animal, more power to them. The mom apparently thought people were telling her to put the foal down because of his looks, which she disagreed with, but admitted that it may be necessary if he’s suffering.
What do you want to bet that he starts suffering and has to be put down right about the time he starts running their daughter over? It won’t be a cute, heartwarming story if she gets hurt.
Yeah, stories like that make me nuts. It’s not cute. Foals are cute, but they’re still 300 lb. bundles of sharp little hoofies and sharp little teeth. 6 year olds don’t belong in fields with loose foals – period.
So what if they have fundraise a little. What is comes down to for me is this; Some problems are bigger than ourselves. I applaud anyone who tries to beat those problems with alternatives without taking a shortcut (eg ship to slaughter or hand the problem off to someone else). If the heart of the little girl and her family is in this 100%, and the foal continues to be happy, then I feel it’s worth the detour.
PS I never fundraise. I do things out of my own pocket which is why I’m a poor schmuck.
If that poor damaged thing survives, pray it gets gelded before some freak decides it’s a designer horse worthy of reproduction, and not just ’cause it’s a krazy kolor.
caligirl9, I agree with you there! And I up the ante to say I wouldn’t breed the dam and sire again either. I read today (from TheHorse.com?) that it may be hereditary. Since I’ve only heard about this in passing, I am curious how many foals born this way are PTS, without anyone knowing.
I’m unsure if wry face or mouth is hereditary, but I do know that dairy goats with a wry face or a wry tail are considered unusable– it’s a major major fault, and the industry generally considers it both hereditary and a huge no no.
I once had a doe whose tail had been broken, and I made sure I kept photos of her as a kid around, so that potential buyers of her babies knew she wasn’t wrytailed.
I had to google this, as in dogs this would be polygenic; the upper jaw could be inherited from the sire and the lower from the dam. This is what I googled up:
Wry nose, or deviated rostral maxilla and associated nasal septal deviation, is a congenital deformity in the horse (he is born with it). There is no good evidence that wry nose in the horse is heritable (has a genetic predisposition). No one really knows what causes it, but as with other congenital deformities, it might result from malpositioning in the uterus.
That little guy looks like he has something besides a wry nose going on. His entire head is misshapen.
My question is, if the foal is happy and nursing, why do the surgery at all at this point? Wait until he’s actually having problems to put him through that. Maybe he’ll learn to graze on his own somehow.
I don’t have an issue with their not putting him down. The letting him chase their child through a field, I do have a problem with. But if he’s not suffering and he’s nursing enough to maintain a healthy weight, I don’t see the point of putting him through surgery. If he were mine I’d give him as much TLC as possible until/unless he started suffering, then I’d think long and hard about whether or not I wanted to put him through a surgery that might leave him still in pain and struggling with breathing for life.
They need to do the surgery ASAP becasue the condition will get worse as he grows. The hope is that if they can fix it now, he may have a less severe problem in the future. If they wait too long it won’t work as well. It is a surgery to prevent suffering.
In addition the bone remodeling (and there will be A LOT of that!) will both be easier and heal more readily in a younger horse. Bone issues can be essentially eliminated in babies that can’t even be moderated in older horses.
katphoti, yours was the only comment that wasn’t dripping with saccharine, as were all the others up until that point. And you were the first to offer a reality check regarding what the family would face if they raise this colt, and how the little girl’s feelings could well change as she gets older. As someone who has worked with young children throughout my career (early childhood educator and professor of education), I gagged when I read the sugary “if only we saw the world through children’s eyes” comments of the other responders. Children are not “angelic little saints” – they are young *people*, capable of the full gamut of behaviours, attitudes and emotions – prosocial and antisocial, kind and cruel, constructive and destructive, sweet and nasty – that one finds in people of any age, albeit in embryonic form. A couple of hours observing a preschool playground would cure those naive other commenters of their starry-eyed image of the young child.
Thanks, reffyca. I appreciate that. I agree completely with you about kids. Perhaps what we envy in children is that they see things as they are and tell it like it is–they haven’t learned restraint or that some things just aren’t possible. The problem is it goes both ways: they can be sweet and kind to everything or can be outright mean or rude. I do believe that in this case, the mother is not being realistic with her daughter and needs to give her the facts, not sugar coat anything.
I also like how mine and carrotplease’s comments were summarily ignored by the author and the girl’s mother. *SIGH* Oh well.
If it were my foal, I’d probably contact every equine genetics research institution I could find to try to find out of anyone is studying or wanted to study his genome to try to find answers on if it’s hereditary and what causes it.
Oops–I meant to insert hysterical laughter after my comment about the TWH world making the same changes. Silly me.
From other posts I looked at, I think crank & yank is pointlessly yanking on their faces while “cranking” them onto a tiny circle. I think every rider does this when I horse is being a pill/trying to buck (I certainly do), but maybe this horse… I don’t know, didn’t transition exactly how they wanted it to? Something like that.
Also, anyone got any tips for getting a lazy gelding to canter while being ponied? He used to do fine, but he’s smart and figured out that he could just keep trotting and that it’s hard for me to really -make- him canter. I won’t lie, this was -frustrating-. I think my poor mare was even more frustrated than me though, hehe. She was -furious-, but mostly held it together like a champion. Anyway, he can be quite willful, and was clearly trying it on. He easily evaded my attempts to get him moving with my whip due to the awkward positioning… and a shank seems to actually make them stop. I do think a rope halter might be good because it would give just a little more “bite” at the poll to get them moving forward. I finally dallied the rope really snugly (didn’t tie it of course), got myself situated, and asked my mare to GO in a straight line. I think she was tired of his antics too, and seemed tuned into what I was doing, and she dragged him into a canter for me. Good girl. We did that a couple of times and called it a day (so fortunately, his commitment to not cantering has limits), but honestly, does anyone have better ideas if this happens again? Or when I am ponying the mare? She’s actually got far less experience being ponied than he does and is generally the one who isn’t just “easy” to pony.
Put a “bum strap” on him, as you would a foal. You will need two lead ropes, one attached to the bun strap, which should come up through a surcingle and then feed up through a martingale strap and up through the noseband ring on the halter, and one leadrope that goes straight to the halter. Sounds complicated but it isn’t once you have it all sorted it is simple and you will not need to use it for long. When he refuses to “break” to canter (and please make sure he is in a working, not extended trot when you ask him) pull sharply on the bum strap rope and his rear will engage, in the way your legs would engage his rear, pushing him off his hocks into canter, which is the correct way to do it. A few lessons on the lunge, re-educating him as to the meaning of the word, “canter” (I use “break”) and you are in business. Basically, your horse should break to canter at whatever speed you are going at when you ask him, so make sure you practise him at all speeds, it keeps his mind supple whilst exercising his body!! Most horses “sull up” ponying, merely because they are bored.
If it were me, my first move would be to carry an extra-long dressage whip… assuming you’re ponying him properly with him roughly even with your horse to one side, it should be easy to give hima good SWAT to encourage forward movement… I’d swat him good on the rump as I asked for canter, before he has a chance to lag back out of reach. A few times of gettng the swat cue to canter will probably have him anticipating the swat and cantering with just a wave of the whip. Horses like you describe who just take advantage to be lazy, usually straighten up when being lazy results in actual enforcement! Make it more pleasant to canter than to lag behind.
Just be able to let go of your lead rope in case he gets silly in reaction to being swatted!
I’d also use a rope halter (I use a rope halter any time I pony a horse that isn’t an old pro at it, anyway).
A horse being ponied who knows the drill, can be wearing whatever headgear you want and it won’t matter because he’ll keep pace with your mount. So dont’ feel like using a rope halter, even one with strategic knots on the poll strap, is “mean” because all he has to do is keep up and behave and he’ll never feel it.
If you’ve ever watched someone pony polo ponies- those horses know the drill. They often pony a horse to each side, or even more than 2 horses, at once, (from an english saddle nonetheless!) and everyone knows their place and keeps pace. Ponying is a skill that must be taught to the horse, they don’t just automatically know where to position themselves and how to keep pace.
As someone who ponies a lot of polo ponies, some are “naturals” and some aren’t. The lazy ones, we usually have another rider chase and swat with a whip, and if they don’t catch on eventually about getting into gear, honestly, those are the ones we sit on. Some are NEVER going to learn to canter and keep up. Some will slam on the brakes right when you’re not expecting it.
Also, I would never recommend anyone EVER let go of a lead rope unless you have to in order to keep from falling off. Once they learn they CAN get away while being ponied, you are going to have endless incidents of them trying to do so. Keep them short enough on the rope that you can shut them down if they blow up before they pull enough rope to get the better of you.
Polo supply places sell these wonderful steel loop nosebands that are awesome for ponying uncooperative horses. They are great for fixing the ones that have learned they can bolt and get away from you.
I didn’t know that you had to teach ponying! I feel naive… At my barn, we’ll ride the horses down to the paddocks for t/o, and I can count on my fingers the # of times on one hand that I’ve come into any type of problem, and I define problem as I had to hop off the horse I was riding because the horse I was ponying was eating grass. Keep in mind we do this bareback with leather halters on, and one lead rope ‘rein’ on each of the horses, albeit we never do more than a walk. If any of our horses was taught to pony it was somewhere else because we don’t do that. Although we do have some ottb’s. Also, the horses that we use are the best school horses in the world, so they’ll do whatever we ask.
Yes… what is Crank and yank??
Crank in UK is a very grumpy person… yank in a person living in USA
I’m going to suggest that it isn’t enough to say, “oh way to go, Mrs. Ingwerson!”
Assuming she is a decent judge in other respects, then I’m going to suggest that you, Cathy, and everyone else who shows at 4-H or open or breed shows specifically requests this woman for a judge. Because if you don’t, and if she picked a big name to say that to, or a kid from a big name barn, then she will not be ‘picked’ for judging at shows. Keep her employed as a thank you for her decision!
Hey Charm this OT but you enjoyed Lizzy’s You Tube videos so much I wanted to let you know that they have just put up a new set. BTW she will be performing at WEG in September. Here are a couple of links.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anCq8QWK970&playnext_from=TL&videos=-PvuS6-sSW4&feature=sub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPxXsU7o9ew&playnext_from=TL&videos=egsfOuLkBk0&feature=sub
Thanks for the link! I’m going to make a ‘lizzy’ file in favorites for this. Anyone who didn’t get a chance to click and watch, should do so this time around. This young lady is magical!
They are a really nice family, Lizzy, her parents and grandmother. Did you see this one where she was working a horse at Liberty?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFZAL72LFFU&playnext_from=TL&videos=L4Fxh7M6qlY&feature=sub
Also this one when you have a chance to watch it. Not recommended for everyone but she has been trained to do this stuff and the end of the video is hysterical.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4ICO68qqAk
Saved and saved also. Do you know, I should go to WEG this year. It’s not that far away!
As a Kansan I’m usually ashamed of what our state has produced (Fred Phelps, BTK, backward school curriculum, etc) but today I’m very happy to stand up and say “Hey, this happened HERE!!!” Just wish I would have been there!!!!
It’s good to hear that someone has grown a spine, may they now begin to multiply! I have my doubts that it will actually happen, but one can always hope…
I agree. You GO, Mary Ingwerson. All it takes is one judge to start a trend back to horses “in the bridle” with pure gaits and a natural way of going. (I mean, what’s “pleasureable” about a horse with its head so low it disappears in front of the rider?)
I saw someone (adult, not sure whether an exhibitor or trainer) in the “schooling ring” at a big AQHA show in Bakersfield at the fairgrounds with draw reins on a “pleasure” horse. Her hands were above her shoulders (and at different heights — inside hand higher). She had the horse doing that painfully slow “what passes for lope” with its head near the ground. Every so often she would jerk her inside hand sharply upward.
No one spoke to this woman, but there were others doing the same thing in the ring. I spent time watching HER because her hands were so high.
This was maybe six years ago. From what I’ve seen — though the AQHA people I remember from “back in the day” who are still active tell me the poll can now be no lower than the withers — things haven’t changed (at least in the schooling ring).
I just don’t GET it. The horses look ill AND crippled, the gaits aren’t “pure” (four-beat lope?), and the horse that wins is the one that does the same basic “lurch” at three different speeds (walk-lurch, jog-lurch, and lope-lurch). This has been going on for 30 years. Makes me sick.
Gah.
“The horses look ill AND crippled, the gaits aren’t “pure†(four-beat lope?), and the horse that wins is the one that does the same basic “lurch†at three different speeds (walk-lurch, jog-lurch, and lope-lurch).”
THATS IT! I’ve always called it the lame “hop-skippy” look, but I LOVE your description of it better! The 3-speed Lurch! This had always bothered me from the first time I saw it, but I was always told it was the “norm” for showing. Huh?!? I don’t even watch WP anymore unless my kid is in the class…I just cannot stand the artifical look and the “crank-spur-yank”. Maybe thats why my kids and horses don’t place high when they show western pleasure (at local shows)…because my horses move naturally at a natural gait, without my child yanking on their mouth. Wow….what a concept….a horse, thats a pleasure to ride, under western saddle! But for some reason my kids still want to show WP (be it only for fun for them….they prefer to compete in speed events and sweep up in trail course)…maybe it’s to show what a western horse looks like without being cranked and yanked into submission?
Glory hallelujah! I never thought I’d hear of this happening in my lifetime! I got ( bred; a fine little unregistered, but of great early bloodlines, mare to an AQHA stallion in 1956, result was a very nice strawberry roan Appendix QH mare) in ’57, so I believe I can claim a ‘history’ with QH’s, but I walked away in disgust 20 some-odd years ago, when peanut-rolling became the ‘norm’- and so much worse has been happening since…:( —that I just couldn’t be any part of it…so I am VERY pleased to see this first step has been taken! I only hope this judge’s action will be a template for others.
Margo, AKA olehossgal–now enjoying Miniature horses, but have never lost my love for the ‘real’ QH/stock-type horse!
“Crank & Yank” is how many AQHA trainers & exhibitors “train” their horses to have that loooooooooooovely peanut-roller headset. They use various draw rein/tiedown/training fork devices to crank the horse’s head down, and in the ring, when they can’t use those devices, they see-saw viciously on their horses’ mouths, yank the reins repeatedly to “set” the head and get that slow, crabbed, incorrect gait. Oh, and then there’s the Spur Stop, which is totally stupid. Yes, it’s using spurs to STOP a horse. I’ve seen 7 yr old kids on their THIRD LESSON with spurs.
Instead of teaching a horse impulsion from the hindquarters, and to move off your leg and into your hand while the horse flexes at the poll, like ALMOST EVERY OTHER DISCIPLINE, AQHA Western Pleasure and fake “Hunter” classes are more interested in teaching a horse to start/stop/slow down/etc. in response to a set of weird signals, like a circus performer. Actually USING its body to achieve this is discouraged. Instead, the horse is forced to hold its body in a rigid “frame” and somehow still manage to travel at a ridiculous parody of a jog or lope. This is usually a weird noodly-legged kind of thing, since most of these horses are BIG and LEGGY. All that latent athleticism – WASTED. All the emphasis placed on where the horse’s neck and nose are parked, and how sloooooooooooooow the horse goes. I’ve seen very few high-level pleasure or hunter under saddle horses I’d care to ride.
Since even at an open show you see SO MUCH of that, and at Congress, it’s just The Way It’s Done, this particular rider must’ve been super egregious. Will the Western Pleasure/Wenglish crap we’ve come to expect from the stock horse arena ever evolve back into something approaching correctness? I’ll believe it when I see it.
Has this judge ever spoken up before? Does she have a reputation for encouraging more natural & correct gaits? Or did she merely respond to a horse whose mouth and sides were bleeding?
Wenglish – I love that term!
Fantastic description Cattypex. Love the circus analogy. When classically trained dressage people (NOT the rollkur crowd) seem not to understand the Western pleasure disciplines, its because exactly what you have described: the trainers fly in the face of all our understanding about how a horse actually moves/uses its body to perform athletic movements. Or perhaps they don’t care, because it’s become a cultish standard to move oddly in the show ring? Apparently the adage “don’t ride the head” doesn’t apply (meaning, collection and impulsion comes from the hindquarters), since they seem to believe cranking the head down makes for collection, or at least slower gaits. And in the case of the weird stuff they do, I guess it does make them slow …. Resulting, as you said, just a bunch of trick horses with no joy. I know, there are folks in the Western disciplines that do seem to understand you get slow through actual collection, but they are few and far between. If you have to torture an animal to perform a certain way, shouldn’t you question your motivations? How can you respect an animal that you deliberately put in constant pain for your own glory?
Western pleasure: I want to take my smooth gaited, obedient horse out for a pleasureable ride. He should have slower gaits because I am not in a hurry and they are more comfortable to sit. My horse should be in a frame suitable for the breed type and work quietly on a loose rein. The show ring seems to have nothing to do with that idea today.
It really makes me angry that even today, with all the progress we have made in understanding animal behavior through research and science, so many people in the horse industry seem to live in the 19th century.
What I want to know is when and why the peanut-rolling, whipped-dog came into vogue – and who dun it!! If you look at old magazines from the 60′s and early 70′s, the pleasure horses carried their necks at a normal, more or less 45 degree angle, and look as if they are actually moving forward. The riders appear relaxed, unlike today’s riders, who look as if they have a poker up their *rse and whose expressions are either a scowl, as they check to see whether the judge has seen their yank yank yank, or a smile that is frighteningly like rictus. Whom do we point the finger at and say, “J’accuse!”? Does anyone have the history of this crime?
Yes! That artificial presentation in the ring indeed has nothing to do with reality on the trail. None of our QHs are trained to roll peanuts, thank goodness!
Amen. Is there no stock horse organization where conscientious people like Ms. Ingwerson can find refuge? Where horses are taught to be solid performance animals, usable inside *and* outside the arena, and not trained to move like penny string puppets? Where “halter horse” is an anachronism? If there isn’t, somebody start one, please!
HALLEUJAH!!!!!! Hopefully others will follow suit!
Hmmm.. after reviewing that, since I apparently can’t get the correct spelling of “to” … how would I know what a more advanced phrase like “crank and yank” meant! ; – )
I don’t know who it was but thought I’d add my “Right ON” to the chorus! Good for Ms. Ingwerson …. I wonder what kind of repurcussions there will be for her though …
I am so excited that my stomach feels upset and I feel like I’m about to cry. I’m also kind of hormonal this morning so it could be that too, but THANK GOD someone is noticing and trying to make a difference!
Dude, a preview button! Ok, back on topic… WHOOOP! I love you Mary Ingwerson! I think I’m going to start a facebook fan page for her… I think she deserves one.
Link us when you get it set up!
Cathy, OT but as you are a polo person could you give an update/”the rest of the story” about the polo pony deaths from bad meds/overdosed meds last spring? Seemed like everything was swept under the rug in mainstream media, I recall there was a guilty pharmacy and/or veterinarian, maybe some foul play maybe not – a lot of speculation, FDA investigation, Florida State Dept of Agriculture investigation, little or no follow-up in the media about the results of the investigations that I recall (but I don’t read Chronicle forums, maybe it was there). If you have any updates on that story would you post? Thanks!
I’m not Cathy, but I can tell you that the ponies died from an incorrectly mixed dose of Selenium.
They were all given a mixed up dose of vitamins similar to .. Baytrix? I think I have the wrong name. It’s designed to help with heat stress and exhaustion in competing horses. Not legal in the U.S., so the farm wanted something similar prepared here. The pharmacy (a human one, go figure) misread the .5 units of Selenium to read as 5 units. Thanks to them missing the little dot, all horses were given a massive overdose of Selenium, which as you probably know is deadly to horses. I doubt charges were filed, although perhaps the pharmacy will have been sanctioned or fined for the mistake. Then again, they were mixing up a compound that technically wasn’t supposed to be ordered for horses in the U.S.
The farm lost 21 head of top quality, beloved polo ponies. Pretty sure they were punished enough without charges filed.
Thank you Charm I did have that from the sketchy reports in the mainstream media which may or may not have been entirely accurate, so I am looking for the results of the investigations by the State of Florida and two other organizations – perhaps three if you count the Pharmacy Board. I frankly do not give a rat’s patoot about “punishment” and am in any event unsure whether a foreign team competing in the US would be subject to any significant US determination and or “punishment” anyway. I am just seeking info on investigation outcomes, is all.
~blushes~
I should have known you already knew that much. It would be nice to hear ‘the rest of the story’ on that one. Such a tremendous tragedy, and so easily avoided.
Totally OT, but I found http://lexington.craigslist.org/grd/1804630694.html on Craigslist this morning. It’s too far a drive for me to go see the horse(s) in person.
Screencap with date and time stamp uploaded to my PhotoBucket, in case the ad gets pulled.
Fugs, do you have any suggestion for what I can do? Should I call the county (Rockcastle County, KY) immediately, go to the city (Livingston, KY) first, email the lady asking for more information and more pictures, then call? This is the first time I’ve personally seen something like this.
I don’t see what you are concerned about. A well trained horse that is cheap or a well trained horse that is expensive compared to what you can get these days? A bad horse photo on Craigslist? It IS a pretty bad photo — you’d think they could have at least included the whole horse, and the foreshortening makes both horses look like all head and no body, except for the fact that half of the sale horse’s head is out of the picture:) There must be something I’m missing.
The photo’s not totally clear, but if you click through to the craigslist ad, it looks like both horses are severely underweight. They also have long, flared feet, and a totally bare pasture (they’re fenced off from the trees in the background). It appears to be a pretty serious neglect case.
To me the bay doesn’t look that bad but the sorrel is atrociously thin!
Rule #1 for selling horses: NO PICTURE is infinitely better than a BAD PICTURE.
If, as she says, you can write for additional pictures and this is the one she chose to showcase this horse, I have to wonder about the quality of those pictures!?!
I have no idea how anyone can look at that picture and know from that angle that the horses are “severely underweight.” It’s a horrible, horrible angle, and neither of them looks to be in QH-halter weight, but I sure would not be able to tell their weight from this photo, or the condition of their hooves.
Before anyone goes off half-cocked and calls the authorities, I would think writing for additional photos might be more appropriate.
I’m admittedly not as knowledgeable about horses as most of you… but even I took one look before even reading the ad and post and thought “DAMN, are those horses or rugs?”
-Gryph
I’d email her (from a throwaway account with a fake name) and find out WHERE the horses are, then call the nearest brand inspector. If your state doesn’t do brand inspection (or brand inspectors don’t investigate cruelty there) replace that with the appropriate authority. If the owner responded to my emails with something admitting they were not receiving proper care and seeming desperate to help them, I’d try to help get the horses into a rescue, but if the owner didn’t volunteer the information that she wanted help for them, I’d find the address and get the authorities out there.
This photo, perhaps in combination with my poor screen res, is so unclear I can’t make a decision. The bay looks okay from here. The sorrel looks horrible. But the angle has him as “all head,” and I can’t tell if that’s a hipbone or a reflection.
I’d ask for more pics! As you’ve wisely done, keep them in Photobucket. If they’re bad, I’d politely get an address and visit. If things look bad in person, call Animal Control.
Sigh. I hate stumbling upon these cases. Good for you for taking action. Just be wise in how you do it.
Hey, there.
I’m an ACO (Animal Control Officer), though not in KY. So, I can’t claim knowledge of the laws in the area where the horses reside, but I can perhaps offer some blanket advice.
Where I work, we investigate EVERY SINGLE “welfare” call. Yes, a lot of them turn out to be unfounded and are dismissed after we make contact and check everything out. But there is NOTHING wrong with calling to report a potential problem.
I can’t see the photo clearly, but I don’t see any reason why you SHOULDN’T call if you feel the photo shows horses that are emaciated. What is the worst that could happen? An ACO or deputy or police officer will go check things out. If things are fine, no harm is done. But, if things are bad – or there are other things going on with other animals that aren’t included in that ad – then perhaps that could mean some help for the horses, etc.
Start with your city Animal Control or Humane Society and tell them the problem, and where the animals are located. If you don’t have either of these resources, call your local Sheriff’s office or your police department and ask them who you need to contact (if not them) to get this investigated.
Hope this helps.
Excellent point about keeping the judge employed. Write that name down, and keep requesting!
I love how she says in the ad that “Pleasant” is an easy keeper!!! Maybe she meant easy on her wallet, BECAUSE SHE DOESN’T BUY FEED!! Both those poor horses look nearly starved to death, I hope someone goes and gets them out of that hellhole!
On the AQHA subject, it’s about time!! I have seen so much crank and yank at our local shows, it makes me sick! Thank God for judges like Mary Ingwerson, she is setting a great example, and maybe others will follow suit!
I know all of the AQHA haters don’t want to believe it..but it happens all the time. ..and it has for years. My mare is now 20, so 19 years ago (we were showing in showmanship as a yearling) at a QH show in Salem, Oregon…a big named trainer was riding in a quick stop (aka nutcracker) out in the warm up area..and everyone was horrified watching him. Fast forward about an hour and he was in his rail class. The judge pulled him to the center of the arena..and made him sit there..and watch the whole class. Yup..he gave him the gate..but didnt’ let him use it! His horse was sore, there was an obvious raw spot along the lower jaw bone..and the judge wasn’t about the give him the easy out and let him out of the arena. Very humiliating I am sure..and very deserved.
I just want to make sure that when a judge does show this kind of courage, they get rewarded for it. I would encourage everyone reading this to specifically patronize shows that Ms. Ingwerson judges, if you have a QH (she also judges PHBA, etc. from what I saw) and tell the show WHY.
I cannot emphasize enough how important this is. What generally happens to judges like Ms Ingwerson is that they get fewer and few judging jobs, because the trainers and other big-entry-fee-generators COMPLAIN about them. So, please, ASK for this judge. Tell the show mgt you will encourage your friends to come and show under her, and that you will enter more classes if she is judging (and then do it!).
The judges really have the most control over this situation. If they start placing only goes that are correct *according to the rulesbook and do not reflect mistreatment, and if more and more judges do this, then the trainers will change — because *they have to* in order to maintain their businesses.
Support the judges who enforce the rules and consider the good of the horse — and COMPLAIN when you see a judge ignoring mistreatment.
I will have to look her up. If she has the background to judge hunters appropriately, I have a show I can hire her for!
Long time ago I was having someone show my four year quarter horse stallion (no he wasn’t gelded) he actually was working on his performance record, just starting since I didn’t even start working him under saddle lightly till he was three and half. He actually had a chance at passing on confirmation, bloodline, temper and performance so he got to stay a stud till he showed that he wouldn’t be able to cut it and at least improve on himself. I am one that doesn’t believe in studs being studs for no reason then they had bloodlines or looks, they needed to be able to so something.
He was at a big AQHA show and the trainer I had asked the timeto show him at the show, spurred him, then yanked him around so hard I thought he would freak. He wasn’t use to that treatment, the only reason someone else was on him was I was hurt from a fall on someone elses horse so couldnt’ show him. I went in the gate shocked the attendent at the gate, the horses were on the other end of the ring, I went to the judge to bring my colt to the center ring and dismiss him. He askedwhy and I told him what the rider had done, he said he didn’t see it and my colt was in his opinion the best in the class and he was ready to call it, I said no, my colt won’t be treated like that and he could call him in or I would go out and get him. He called him in I grabbed the guy down off my colt and we left, with the rider and judge just staring at us.
I wasn’t about to let someone treat one of my horses like that. They never had treatment like that and weren’t about to by anyone.
I got suspended from the show circuit for six months for disrupting the class.
I guess it was supposed to make me learn not to do something like that in the future, but I didn’t would do the same thing if it happened again.
Wow. What a great story and you certainly get two thumbs up from me!
There is an ABRA show this weekend that I wish my horse was at, but my trainer had a conflict and I’m afraid to have someone else ride him for just the reason you described. He has NEVER been treated like that and I can’t imagine what he’d do if he was. It wouldn’t be worth setting his training back months and having to fix it. He was actually really nervous at his first show just watching other horses get yanked and spurred. We realized he had never seen anything like that and didn’t know how to process it. Another trainer friend observed that the fear/stress coming off the other horses probably freaked mine out.
I would like to give you a big hug for being an excellent advocate for your horse!!
I have been to one cutting event in my life. It was on August 6, 2003 at the Galles Ranch in Pagosa Springs, sponsored by UBS. One trainer was in the warm-up arena on a young paint, jerking on his mouth and spurring non-freaking-stop. I was below a stand with organizers, what not inside and I finally turned around to them and yelled to them: “What’s wrong with that guy”?
A man on horseback came riding to me and explained that this was a top trainer and that’s how one must teach a horse to cut. I told him “bullshit”.
Before the brutal idiot entered the warm-up arena and started spurring and yanking (I wish I had knew his name) that young horse non-stop (what does he do to his horses in private?), I had the great pleasure to witness a lady riding her horses with a sort of halter made of braided ropes with matching reins and NO bit. Watched her and her happy horses was like watching ballet and poetry in motion. It was so wonderful and always what it should be, horse and rider having a wonderful time doing what they were meant to do for pleasure.
I wish I knew her name, she deserves her own Facebook fan club. Perhaps someone knows who this lady is.
I have not attended another cutting event since.
“Bullshit” is exactly it. For god’s sake, you don’t really teach a horse to cut. I’ve SEEN people train cutting horses. It’s an instinct … all you do is direct them. It’s not like you’re booting them in the ribs making them do that. And there’s no reason on EARTH you’d be jerking on their mouths.
I am a huge fan of bitless bridles, although obviously there are times when a bit is appropriate. But I see no reason to put a bit in their mouth for the first 30 days or so…it’s so much easier to correct them humanely without one. I think it’s funny when people think they won’t have control without a bit. If you don’t have control without a bit, you don’t really have control, period.
I never really believed the “cutter instinct” thing until the first time I rode my QH mare (who had several world-champion cutting horses in her background, I found out later, but had been trained exclusively for hunters/dressage at that point) into an arena with cows in it. It was absolutely amazing, like she knew what the cows were going to do before they did it, and that they were supposed to be over there not over here.
I have seen horses cut loose in the field…horses who were not trained cutting horses. It’s definitely an instinct!
I am so glad that this topic is being discussed today. Recently I was at a Pony Club function that was at the same location as a QH show. Some of us wandered over to watch the warm up for the QH show and we all looked at each other and (discretely) said why are ALL these horses sooo lame? We were told that that is how they are SUPPOSED to look. Wait, what? I seriously did not even recognize the gait they called a LOPE? Then we thought that maybe they warm them up like that and then LET THEM CANTER in the show ring…so we waited….Here they came with all that silver and bling…the big moment…THEY WENT EVEN SLOWER and MORE 4 BEATED! Who knew that was possible?
What is the purpose of this gait? All I could think is that maybe their feet were trimmed so dang short they just could not move. I must be honest and not once did I see the “crank and yank” but I think I was so confused, I maybe didnt notice. All their heads never moved…I guess to match everything else.
I know every discipline/organization has its criticisms. What some people do to those gaited horses sickens me and some people think upper level eventing is cruel. I guess we all need to decide where we draw the line. Like I said, I did not see any outright abuse by I could not shake thinking what it took to get a horse to go like that…behind the arena door…at home…because those horses sure as hell do not canter like that naturally…I mean lope…
Funny you should say that newbie, but the same happened to us a while back. The parents and kids were all at a summer Pony Club camp, and had finished our lessons for the day and were just hanging out when a 4-H club arrived to school in the arena. A western 4-H club. We all perched on the rail and watched the club school, and I embarrassed to say we started out muttering under our breath as the kids proceeded to crank and yank their long-suffering quarter horses around the ring. I’m even more embarrassed to say that we went from muttering to outright jeering at them for it, but it was kind of disgusting to watch 8-year-olds with spurs and long shanked curb bits torturing their poor animals like that. They had obviously been “taught” how to ride in that manner – they seemed bewildered that our kids were criticizing them!
The first time I saw that shuffle (1988? I was at county fair & there was one horse in the WP doing that) I thought the horse had a near broken leg or something. Why else would it move like that? It certainly doesn’t look pleasurable for horse or rider.
I actually saw a video on ehow (or something) and a girl was saying that you need a true three beat lope in a WP class…and then she shuffled off.
Here is something I don’t understand about the distorted gaits & peanut rolling: People who have been around horses forever who I would otherwise think would have some sort of sense look at this and don’t think it is the most ridiculous distorted thing EVER?
The cowboy that owned the barn I worked at as a kid – he knew more than I will ever know, great with horses, rode his horses out on the trail & did some shooting competitions with them. A great horseman & a fantastic guy. Yet he goes to these AQHA shows & keeps up with the Quarter Horse show world. I can’t imagine him actually looking at a horse moving like that & thinking it looks normal.
Also, such MAJOR kudos to this judge, but how many judges will do this? If one of us slobs makes an attempt to do the same thing would it have any effect? If we champion people who do things like this all over the internet, mention her name all the time, can we make her famous & hope others decide to follow suit?
I hope this is the start of a new trend in the AQHA world. I was appalled when I watched reining at Congress last year. Some of the riders threw their entire weight on their horse’s mouth to go into a sliding stop. One in particular actually looked like it was gagging. The rider had a cathedral bit with extra long shanks, sat back in the saddle and hauled on the reins. The horse’s mouth was hanging wide open, and stayed that way even after she released the pressure. I felt terrible for the horse – can’t imagine how badly that had to hurt.
On another note, I used to show WP when I was growing up and it was nothing like it is today. We were expected to go at a slow, easy, comfortable – hell *pleasurable* gait. The horse’s heads were level to slightly up. I used to win at it all the time and *never* used draw reins or cranked on the horse. I trained my horse in a snaffle with light contact. I even trained him to drop his head down when I tapped on his withers in order to get the WP headset. If his head started coming up, I’d tap til his head was where I wanted it. And I didn’t abuse him to teach him to do that. All it took was a lot of time and patience with release and reward at the correct time. I often wonder if any of the so-called “professionals” do it this way anymore.
Oh, and one more thing – back then you (and your horse) weren’t truly accomplished unless you could do several events well. These days, everyone’s a specialist. One horse for reining, another for pleasure/eq, another for gaming. Hell, we used to use one horse for everything – even if they weren’t as good at the other events, it certainly made showing a lot more fun!
I agree – the specialist stuff is crap. It’s so much better for the HORSES to have a little variety in their lives, too!
I don’t know much about reining, but isn’t a *correct* sliding stop done on the seat alone? Isn’t a well trained reining horse supposed to stop with minimal or no use of the hand?
You are 100% correct.
Yes you let them go, sit back and say WHOA and they slide to a stop. It’s a blast.
At the few reining classes I’ve seen (and they were championships, a few years ago), every horse had to spit its bit for the judge to inspect after its go – all the bridles were one-ear for easy removal, the rider dismounted and took the bridle right off so the judge could see the bit. Don’t they do that anymore?
In NRHA (National Reining Horse Association) classes, all riders (pros, no-pros, and youths) must see the Bit Judge at the conclusion of their ride. If any illegal equipment was used, or any, ANY, blood is on the horse the pair receive a No Score. See the NRHA website for a copy of the handbook, or visit http://www.nrha.com/handbook/rulesforjudging.pdf
To my knowledge spade bits aren’t illegal.
I’ve not seen this at the reining competitions that I’ve been too.
Were the reinings you attended NRHA, open reining shows, or breed reinings? Many of the larger NRHA shows have a separate judge, outside of the show pen, who specifically do this task; which keeps the show moving along. Smaller NRHA shows may only have the funds to hire one judge who will do both, score the ride and bit check. I know AQHA doesn’t bit check, but I can not attest for other breed reinings.
Our County Sheriff Posse put on monthly gymkannas when I was a kid. 1970 ish- Your typical barrels, flag race,poles ect but just to mix it up and give us poor little swamp rats with 50 dollar auction fuglies a shot at a ribbon they also made up some goofy speed events too. The rich girls with their $$$ gamer specialists didn’t have a chance when they called out my favorite- bareback/backwards ( rider backwards not the pattern) barrels. The winner was usually on the slowest pluggiest babysitter horse because everybody else bit the dust. My friend’s grade QH was the best. You could win staying at the walk with a little jogging. No helmets, plenty of unsupervised kids (like me) out til 1 AM and riding bikes miles home in the dark afterwards, grown-ups and teens drinking, ( yep law enforcement present wink wink) nobody worried about lawyers so horseless kids could actually bum rides from anybody and when you got bucked from the wild greenie they just laughed and said cowboy up.
And let the pissing and moaning BEGIN!
From a thread about this:
“I know that AQHA has put a new emphasis on abuse at our shows. One of
the novice youth kids in our barn was singled out by an AQHA steward
last month because she bumped her horse’s mouth a few times for
misbehaving in a class; the steward told her “What if someone new to
AQHA saw that and thought that was how we all treat our horses?” He
left this 14 year old girl in tears and fearful that she was going to
be kicked out of AQHA. ”
WAH! WAH! WAH! Someone’s FWEELINGS got hurt because someone actually TOLD her that ripping the everliving shit out of her horse’s face was wrong!
The kid will live. Her trainer should be TOTALLY FUCKING ASHAMED that she set the kid up for that by teaching her to ride like that. But how much do you want to bet that whole barn is just going OMG the steward is a MEAAAAANIE and they “singled us out” and it’s UNFAAAAAAAAIR?
“bumped” her horse’s mouth… is that what the kids are calling it now-a-days? Bwaahahahahaaaa
That’s what trainers call it.
” Okay, now give him a bump. Good. One more.. There, now he’s about right.”
Euphemism indeed.
“bumped her horse’s mouth A FEW TIMES for misbehaving …” (emphasis mine)
First of all, the only “misbehavior” that would warrant *one* “bump” would be a lunge to try to bite another horse in the ring!
Secondly, I bet that “misbehavior” was a small deviation from the desired frame — ears above the wither, perhaps.
And finally, I am eternally entertained by the euphemism “bump”. How do you “bump” a horse in the mouth? Do you stop, dismount, and use your shoulder to “bump” into him? Your horse can “bump” into the bit, perhaps, if you have a fixed hand and the horse stumbles or otherwise moves his head suddenly — but you cannot “bump” your horse from the saddle.
Let’s call a spade a spade, and a JERK a JERK.
My trainer would completely confuse these people… When she asks me to ‘bump’ a horse, she means to give it a quick nudge with the inside leg because it’s starting to trail its hindquarters
.
Well said! Psychologist Alice Miller wrote a series of brilliant books on how we are brainwashed to either completely discount or create euphemisms for violence. “For Your Own Good: The Roots of Violence in Childrearing” is one. Then we brainwash our kids to not only accept violence as normal, but to absorb the crazy belief it’s good for them.
Our society abounds with phrases like, “Teach you a lesson,” accompanied by violence. So the anger we store in our bodies gets acted out physically on others (often animals, if not kids), while our brains do a vicious circle of minimizing our actions, and saying they’re “good.”
The other day I was in line at a store. A man rudely shoved me to get by. I made an “ooof” sound. The woman ahead of me had a girl, about 8, with her. She turned around and asked if I was okay. I told her the guy had shoved, instead of an “excuse me.” The mother turned to her daughter and said, “A fellow bumped into her by accident.” She hadn’t even witnessed it! Total crazy making. I said, “No, it wasn’t an accident. He shoved me to get by.”
The woman was sooo invested in making violence acceptable. What does a woman like this tell her child when they witness violence towards animals? What if the child gets abused by her father or uncle? You guessed it. “She’s just ‘bumping’ the horse.” “His hand slipped in your panties by accident.” Later in life, “You only have a black eye ‘cuz his hand slipped.” “They didn’t MEAN to starve those horses to death.”
Aaaaargh. The Fugly blog is my regular dose of reality. Thanks, ladies (well, mainly ladies).
So, so, so true. Nothing is anybody’s FAULT. Nobody does anything evil and mean DELIBERATELY. That’s our culture for you! Even criminals are just traumatized by their childhoods and it’s not their fault, either.
Yeah, but when my horse does something wrong and I fall off, I’ll still say it was my fault and make all the excuses in the world. Sometimes I feel like a beaten wife, lol.
“I should have stayed on, she barely lifted up her hind end.”
“She’s just girthy, she won’t hurt you! Just take one giant step back…”
“He’s not pulling you all over the place to be mean, he just doesn’t know his own strength!”
“He’s just a little willful, you need to be firm.” (This was after he bolted off the lead rope.)
“This black eye? No, I put my face in front of his knee to get this last piece of hair. He didn’t mean to jam it into my face.”
So this bit of wisdom can go both ways. Oh, the human psyche…
Those are really astute observations. And as the mother of a daughter, I hope I can teach her to not wimp out on the TRUTH when it comes to the crappy men.
I board at a WP barn for now. Well, most barns in my immediate area are, unfortunately.
The BO is a good person, most of the boarders are good people, the horses are very well cared for, but…… once they get in the saddle……
I’m just getting so very tired of all the popular trainers in the area. It’s ALL 100% crank’n'yank. If I asked any of those riders about “engagement,” “impulsion,” “extension,” or “collection,” I’d get either blank stares or super scary answers.
If my daughter decides to ride seriously, we’re going to jump ship over to Pony Club, I don’t care if it’s an hour away.
I love Pony Club. I mean, there are twits in everything, but overall the standard at PC is very high.
Our family is big into Pony Club. Whats even better is that the facility we board at follows the PC standards and most of the kids there are either in PC or a graduate. This makes things so much easier for everyone involved as everyone knows what is acceptable and what is not. Its not about matching tack trunks or whose rig cost more than their house. Its about common sense horse care and meeting a standard that puts the horse first. We have kids, adults, Grampas, people that lesson once a week and people that ride 6 days a week and show a lot. Pony club Horse Management is simply no nonsense horse care. If I ever decide to open a large facility again in my life, the D/C level PC manual will be the “handbook” for all boarders.
Sure, there are some people who claim to follow the PC standard who like to skip the stuff they do not like or that is too much work. A recent Fugly outting is a great example. But I am holding on to the idea that there is tried and true source for good solid horse care info.
Yes, in PC we even had stall cleaning contests, and received show ribbons. Best Cleaned Overall, Best Corners, Best Strawed…
To this day (I’m in my 40s) I’m shocked when I see a badly cleaned stall, particularly in an expensive facility. And I have.
“treat my horse with the respect and consideration due a partner”
Everyone should live by the Pony Club motto. Everyone.
Cattypex,
You’re about an hour from me and I think you’d love my dressage instructor. I have learned a lot! No pony club around here though – Dayton or Indy for that I would guess. I’ve been showing the Dayton local show circuit and found out about a lot of places I had never heard of before, so they are out there…
I might be showing the DLSC too! Hope to see you at a show or two
I learned how to REALLY ride at Trails End, under Sue Black, back in the early – mid 80s when they were just starting to build a great business. Alas, I can’t afford to ride there anymore… Sue was really good at teaching folks how to use their whole bodies; she attended a Sally Swift clinic and actually appears in the first Centered Riding video that was filmed there. She was also enough of an old-fashioned drill instructor that you rode many laps without stirrups if that’s what you needed.
Indy is just a little too far from me – Dayton would work better. We do have a local PC chapter, I think, but I’m not sure how robust it is….
Some half-baked “trainer” took the half-halt and totally messed it up, and called it a “bump.” Guess it sounds more…. proletarian.
Like that whole “Sit on your pockets” thing – someone took “use your seat” and turned it into a leaning-back yet hunkered over chair seat in the HUS ring.
And it was probably a guy — women can’t actually do that (sit on their pockets). I remember reading a whole article in Practical Horseman or Equus or some such about how it is a bad concept, for anatomical reasons.
Oh! That would explain it…. I think that a lot of trainers think it sounds kind of snappy and catch-phrasey
I always wonder how they can sit on their pockets and not drive with their seat while sitting up in the saddle. Can someone explain this? My (English) instructor is always telling me to push my butt out behind me and sit on my crotch.
This is EXACTLY what the kid should be told.
When we showed our cattle we were always told that when you are in the public eye, you represent the industry. You are on your absolute best behavior at all times, keep your animals, space & equip. sparkling clean. And even if someone deserved a whack (not that this horse did) you certainly didn’t do it in front of people who might think a half whack on your steers nose might be too much.
I consider that this steward did the kid a favor by telling her the truth. More parents, teachers and adults need to do the same.
When I was in the show world about 20 years ago there was this BNT from the Northwest who was notorious for teaching her students to yank on their horses’ mouths. She and her assistants would actually yell in the warm up pen “YANK!!” And sure enough, the kids would proceed to rip their horses’ mouths. It was awful. Outside of her barn at the shows she would have a chalkboard with these ridiculous sports-psychotherapy nonsense quotes… Well, when I was 13 or so, me and a friend who was equally disgusted by her “training” methods snuck over to her barn at night, erased the psycho-babble stuff from the chalkboard and drew cartoons of horses with bleeding mouths and wrote things like “YANK SPUR YANK SPUR!!” and “ABUSERS!! I guess at 13 that seemed like a good idea. No one else seemed to want to say anything.
That’s the only time I ever vandalized anything in my life…
The sad thing is that if that judge stands up to the “wrong” BNT, she could find herself not getting as many judging gigs…
I love the 13 year old you- you and your pal rocked!
What great kids you were!
That’s awesome! Well, about the vandalism part, and not the shady horsemanship…
This is totally off topic. I am designing a barn and would love it if Cathy could do a post on barns — what people love about their barns (the actual structure, not the politics) and what people hate. I read a good article from Practical Horseman at http://equisearch.com/horses_care/farm_ranch/barns/eqbarn915/index.aspx but would love to hear more. Hope it happens.
My best advice is to volunteer at any and all local barns. Clean their stalls, wash their horses, do their feeding. Notice which of those tasks is a pain in the ass, and figure out why. Do you have to climb a ladder to get your hay? Do you want to do that for the next umpteen years? Do you have to push a wheelbarrow full of manure out of the barn and then go another 200 feet to a giant pile of crap just to dump it one time? When it’s show time, can you get the tack easily to the trailer, or do you have to carry it forever through multiple doorways?
There are always issues that waste time or are unsafe. The big thing is to figure out what you personally can and can’t live with.
I would make one big suggestion that you might not deal with by volunteering to work. Make sure that EVERYTHING is replaceable. Horses break boards, snap latches, and generally are hard on their floors, walls, and doors. Make sure damage can be fixed. Some stalls aren’t designed for replacement, which means you either have to use an ugly patch, or live with messed up stalls, or replace an entire wall or door.
The idea of “crank and yank” is to use a little twisted wire bit to make the mouth sore, then use a big curb bit and do some final touches before going into the ring. Their hope is to produce a horse that is so sore and intimadated, that he will hold his head in the desire position hopefully, all thru his class, while you ride with a draped rein giving the false illustion that your horse is a “pleasure to ride” and is broke and light in the bridle. Couple that with the rider holding the reins with the open tips of their “puppy paws” fingers makes them look like they are light too. Ah a picture of beauty…that is unless you happened to see them back at the barn, in the warm up, and esp. at home where the real “training” takes place. Nothing serves as a wake up call as to what fellow exhibitors have “hardened” their hearts to see than to watch what some of them do in the practice rings to their horses after the general public goes for the evening. I have seen Arab trainers ride all night until their horses are white with lather. At my first pinto show, I was actually shocked to see that after the first day’s show was over, that the exhibitors actually put their horses away, went out to eat with friends, and went to bed. Not one person rode in the ring before or after the actually show was over or started again in the morning. I took my horse over to the ring to ride and it was empty. I was so used to the all night “training” sessions that I was actually shocked that they didn’t do it too. Now, I too put my horse away after the shows and go out with friends to dinner. My horse is happy and fresh after a good night’s rest and so am I.
Forgot to add…if the judges refused to place the peanut rollers, the crab crawlers, the troppers, the thin and browbeaten look, the intimidated, the ones who lack forward motion, the four-beaters who are loping in place, and the head bobbers who look like they are drilling for oil, 90% of all the crank and yanks would stop trying to make their square pegs fit into round holes and quit trying to make their horses look like what is currently winning in the show ring today, esp. in western pleasure. I just hate watching some poor pitiful WP creatures bobbing, crabbing, loping in place Quarter Horse on Utube and then reading all the comments from people saying what an AWSOME mover the horse is, esp. if it’s a stallion standing at stud. If the horses were shown in a more natural way, alot of the abuse to go slow, keep a “correct” head set, etc. would stop ….not to mention the absolutly sickening sight of seeing a QH lope around with his “dead” tail hanging limp tucked deep into his butt cheeks. To me, none of that is one bit pretty and deserving of a ribbon.
The thing is:
The judges are trainers. The trainers are judges. Rinse, repeat ad nauseum.
There’s an inherent conflict of interest, but realistically, how do you change it?!?!!??
Is it any different in any discipline, though? It stands to reason most judges are going to be trainers. Or retired trainers, who still know everybody.
Oh, I know – and if you are a professional horseman who knows anything at ALL, you’re most likely a trainer. And that’s not a bad thing, except when the quality of the training starts that downhill slide……
It’s a very complicated issue. And I don’t think I’d necessarily want non-trainers to BE judges – the problem is, so many trainers have bought into the WP (aand halter!) schtick because… well, there’s money in it, and prestige, and shiny owners….
There’s a whole generation of WRONG that has now perpetuated itself, and if we DO go back to a better-moving, more correct WP horse, it will be because someone has an outstanding “natural” horse that the trainer is smart enough to market as “THE hot new thing,” like the whole mess that STARTED the peanut-roller movement.
I predict:
He (it will be a stallion) will be a horse so undeniably and blindingly gorgeous, out of highly desirable bloodlines, that it CAN’T be ignored.
He will be an amazing color, maybe even brindle.
He will be shown with a long mane, a very fancy “old-timey” custom saddle that still manages to drip silver.
The trainer (a man) will wear a glitzy version of the buckaroo fashions becoming popular among the wannabe set.
The horse will get some kind of name like “Heza Natural Khrymzun.”
They might even go “California Style,” which will be presented as Teh New Awsum.
The horse’s owner will be a BIG BUCKS celebrity.
And it will all take off like a house afire.
Oh, the trainer will be VERY prominent, with some past ties to the Arab or Morgan world. Probably Arab.
have you seen the cowboy dressage dude? Someone help me out here. One of his horses almost makes me weep
Yeah! He is heavily endorsed by Dr. Robert Miller, who always promotes a good combo of practical innovation and old fashioned common sense horsemanship.
I have heard that Pinto is starting to go the way of APHA. I’ll find out when I start taking my colt to the shows.
Yep. When mine went to training, one of my few diehard rules was no twisted wire, not ever, no matter what. I HATE those bits with a passion and no horse of mine will ever wear one. A thick slow twist when he’s leaning on the bit? Sure. But no way in hell will he ever go in a wire.
My experience is that a flash noseband stops leaning faster than a twisted bit in most cases. I’ve even seen…by a trainer who knew what she was doing…a crank used well to deal with leaning. (I don’t normally like crank nosebands, but when you have a horse that’s leaning so hard the poor rider ends up with sore hands, shoulders, back and abs from it…I’m willing to go with what works as a short term measure).
Sorry. One of my soapboxes: If you have to tie your horse’s mouth shut, REGARDLESS of the method, you’re doing it wrong — wrong bit or wrong hands. If you think a sharper bit is the way to stop lugging, you’re doing it wrong.
Remember, it takes two to pull. He can lug on you if you don’t lug on him.
Drat. I should use preview. He *can’t* lug on you if you don’t lug on him.
I have no issue with a slow twist – that’s a pretty mild solution for a horse who is simply lazy and wants to lay on the bit a bit. I’m not talking about rooting. I’m talking about basically using the bit as a headrest because what he is normally ridden in is so mild that he can do that.
I do not like flash/dropped nosebands for pleasure horses, and neither does my horse – he made it clear early on he didn’t care for them and would go worse until it came off, ha ha.
A bit is only as severe/abusive as the hands using it. And flash/ figure 8 nosebands are illegal for pleasure horses anyway.
I have, quite literally, seen a horse killed by one of those teeny wire bits. Or I guess you could say it was killed by the stupidity of the trainer who put it in the teeny wire bit. GAG bit, I should add… with metal over the crown.
It was in 2000… Hot Rod was a GORGEOUS big 3- or 4-year-old AQHA gelding, looked like he had lots of TB in him and was very high-strung. His owner (a teenage girl and her rich parents) had just about given up on making him a WP horse and were quietly asking around about marketing him as a HUS horse or even as a hunter/jumper completely outside the AQHA world. I, a dressage rider, was working at a QH farm at the time to pay the bills, and one day as I was cleaning stalls the QH trainer came running out of the arena. She had been long-lining the high-strung young gelding in a 1/4″ twisted wire gag with the metal crown and he’d thrown himself over backwards so hard his poll hit the ground before the saddle horn did. We called the vet and the horse’s owners (who lived long-distance) and untacked the poor guy, but we could already tell his odds weren’t good. He couldn’t stand even with help, it basically looked like he had no use of his back end. His tongue hung out of his mouth and he had several broken teeth. The vet suspected brain damage, flushed his brain (I guess?) with DMSO (this was 10 years ago so I hope I’m remembering that correctly) and told us to keep trying to get him to his feet. We couldn’t. He had flipped at 3pm, around 11pm we gave up and had the vet back to euthanize.
The trainer went on and on about how the horse was so unstable and something like this was “bound” to happen anyway… I said nothing (I was only 19) but thought to myself many times since then that of COURSE it was “bound” to happen with the horse in that trainer’s care. I guess as an AQHA trainer she couldn’t comprehend treating a “hot” horse with tact and sensitivity.
RIP Hot Rod… I still think about you 10 years later. That incident taught me a LOT of things that I’ve gone on to use in my own work starting babies under saddle. I’ve made a bit of a name for myself as being a good rider for the sensitive, hot, forward horses, and I’m very proud of it.
Trainer’s Name?
I’ve been racking my brain and unfortunately, all I can remember is that her first name was Michelle
Don’t remember her last name. It was 10 years ago and I was only there for 9 months or so, and never worked directly with her.
This took place at Canyon Creek Farm in Bellingham WA in 2000ish. It wasn’t the only death that year either, another horse she was training dropped dead of unknown causes a few months before this had happened. If I recall she’d had some trouble in the area previous to this (got fired or quit as a different farm’s trainer and had signed a non-compete contract or something? I could be way off on this) and was commuting to Bow WA to train there for a while.
Nope, no “slow twist”. If he’s leaning on the bit, YOU are supporting him — which means you are leaning on him. That doesn’t require a more severe (read: more uncomfortable) bit, that requires a little more engagement, a little more active seat, and doing something besides going round and round.
You fix it from the *rear*, not the front. 
I’ve never ridden him in it, so I don’t know, but I don’t really have a problem with it. Again, I just don’t consider it to be a severe enough bit to worry about.
I used to ride a horse that went in a ball bit. You can’t get softer than that, but he couldn’t take the bit and drag me around the ring so easily because it was harder to pull on.
I was hacking with one of my friends who was riding a horse that rooted. I told her to tie her reins in a knot and trot, and he kept his head still. She worked the rest of the ride on keeping her hands still and quiet.
So yeah, it’s the same thing you would do if your horse went down for grass, give with your hands and squeeze harder.
I found this video today…. http://myown.oprah.com/audition/index.html?request=video_details&response_id=10474&promo_id=1 Seriously scary. She throws the reins over the horse’s head AS she dismounts. And then there’s her riding, and her scary horse handling, and the photo of a child on a pony where the lead isn’t held, but rather, draped around another child’s neck.
Or how about this lovely photo with the infant? http://redoubtreporter.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/barreling-along-%E2%80%94-riders-race-for-state-title-in-soldotna/rodeo-angle-of-attack-web/
You know… there is one thing that I noticed with pleasure horses. When do the riders praise their horses?
I mean, I’m sitting thinking about my own riding, and yes, it was on trails this weekend, but I did in fact get into my son’s mare– she had a kitten fit about being made to stand and wait at the top of a steep hill so the horse in front of her had a big head start. This is a safety issue, and I was pretty firm with her about it. I might have even yanked on her, or kicked her.
Then she took a moment to think and relax, and I petted her, praised her, and told her what an amazing mare she is. So okay, maybe you really do have to grab that head a little hard sometimes. But why is it crank and yank, and Horse if you are lucky I won’t touch you again? Is it that demeaning to reach up or back and give your horse a stroke or pat, and a few kind words? What? Does it mess with his concentration?
Nah, you don’t have to grab the head hard. Again, mine is doing it without any of that.
And he gets snuggled nonstop at the shows and I have the pictures to prove it.
Sorry, those of you who want to believe the abuse is necessary…it’s not and there are people and horses out there proving that it is not.
I think we all have our own ‘oh shit’ moments, but I agree that you don’t need to be abusive with a horse ever.
The trainers think they look all serious, businesslike and “professional” if they are mean. You’ve got to remember your basic Western Pleasure clientele: I will draw a very BROAD stereotype and say, many if not most of them are:
– country music fans
– self-identified patriotic
– self-identified Christian
– Republican or Libertarian
– very into gun rights
Now, I’m not saying that they are ignorant hicks, because there’s often a lot of money involved, and successful businesspeople footing the bills, which means college-educated, but this is a demographic that values authoritarian treatment of children AND animals. Discipline is valued over praise. And sometimes – often – “discipline” is physical. It’s a very “spare the rod, spoil the child” mentality.
This is a VERY BROAD observation. But it’s definitely seen as praiseworthy to “not take any crap” which often translates to “git after that kid/horse/dog before it does something wrong!” and overcorrecting.
Hey, I love country music, I’m all for gun rights and I’m a Libertarian-leaning Republican, and I would never ride like that.
I just think it has to do with EGO which is not specific to any political persuasion. I think they DO think they look cool cranking and yanking with their nose up in the air.
I think they look ridiculous and cruel and I applaud any judge or steward who has the guts to point that out to them – because they’re dead on – it makes AQHA look bad and it reduces participation at the shows, which is a very expensive price to pay for the organization.
I do know that growing up in the English hunter scene, there was very much an attitude that you were not a good rider unless you were riding a ‘hot’ and excitable horse. To the point where at that barn, it was common to punish an advanced rider who mouthed off to the instructor (read, refused to let herself be bullied) by making them ride a ‘boring’ horse.
One of the side effects of this was people who would do things to make their horses look hot and excitable…the reverse of the half-dead Wenglish pleasure crowd. I remember one girl who would jank, boot and spin her horse so he would ‘dance’. Sigh.
The odd thing is, I love riding ‘hot’ and ‘excitable’ horses…but my goal is to have it so the only person who knows the horse is hot is ME
.
Good example of how things are always effed up, just in different ways!!!
I guess what I’m trying to get across is that a good many of “those” people are very into binary and arbitrary systems of reward/punishment that’s WAY heavy on the punishment part.
I see it allllll the time around here. Some big global issue will come up in conversation, and the person will say something like “It’s simple! you just…”
Hmmm, not sure what the point of that generalization is. We have Quarter Horses, although granted we don’t show. I like the breed because it is calm and sensible. I am the exact opposite of all of the characterizations in your list, though. Nope, doesn’t work here. Not at all. I really don’t like that stereotype.
Hey, I LOVE Quarter Horses – they are really awesome all-around family horses with great attitudes and athletic ability to spare!!!!! I’m also kind of a bleeding-heart liberal, so there’s my official disclaimer.
Also I like most country music made before 1980 or so, and some after.
A friend of mine and I were talking about how when you’re extremely liberal, you kind of come around full circle and embrace a lot of old-fashioned “conservative” values, like:
– hard work, no half-assed shortcuts allowed
– the importance of family and community
– intolerance of leeches on society, since community members should look out for one another
(good neighbors, you know? Shoveling that old lady’s front walk in the winter, etc.)
– the world owes you NOTHING…. so get over yourself and become part of the solution
– Like Mom always told me, “You will meet people you dislike ALL the time, but you HAVE to figure out how to get
along with ‘em.”
It was hard to put into words the common traits I’ve noticed among people who think nothing of using bad, punishment-heavy training methods on horses and kids. CERTAINLY not all folks who fall into those categories are mean & stuff – I did say this was a broooooooooad generalization!
Treasure said it very well when she was quoting a book about using euphemism to make violence more acceptable, too…
Yep, you pretty much described me to a T but not the country music part, and I abhor the treatment of horses in the show industry today. I have a 4 year old reining mare breaking in to the reining shows and she is not trained or treated like that at all. No tail blocking, no ridiculous hoof trims with 4″ heels, no yanking, no cranking, in fact she does hold her head a bit too high and I am going to discuss this with my trainer to find a way to bring her head down to level or just abouve the withers without resorting to freaky tactics.
Oh, puhlease!
I am a country music listening, proud and patriotic USMC Mom, Libertarian-leaning Republican, gun-toting country woman. The only part of your stereotype, cattypex, that I don’t fit is “Christian.” I know many people who fit your stereotype to a “T” and none of us uses, accepts, or condones abusive practices. And that’s true whether you’re talking about our equines, cattle, dogs, cats, or kids.
You are way out in left-field with this one.
There is a certain subset of the population that completely lacks empathy for other beings and you will find them in every aspect of the horse industry. Just take a stroll along the back side of a racetrack, Arabian show, hunter-jumper show, dressage competition, or Natural Horsemanship clinic. And I’ll bet some of them drive Volvos, listen to rock music, haven’t been in a church for years, voted for Obama, and wish the US could be more like France…not that there is anything wrong with that…
I agree with your post 100%!
Yeah, I sat and stared at my post for awhile before I hit “submit.” It wasn’t as articulate as I wanted it to be, and I took the risk of offending good people.
See my reply to Bassgirl.
There’s nothing wrong with being patriotic, in fact it’s a GOOD thing to love your country and want to make it better.
As for France, talk to people who’ve raised kids there – it’s a LOT more family-friendly than this country. Unfortunately they eat horses, can’t seem to get their military act together, and … um…. are responsible for EuroDisney. And that whole thing with Jerry Lewis. WTF!??!?!?
It’s a good thing to be proud of your soldier. We NEED good soldiers. THey should probably make better money, and veterans certainly deserve better benefits than they get. I love peace, but the reality is, a big hostile chunk of the world’s leadership does NOT. And I’d rather keep the USA safe than not.
(Dude, I voted for Obama/Biden. The alternative was unpalatable. I’m not 100% happy with the job my president is doing right now, but that’s what we’ve got for now. Frankly I wish we had 4 or 5 viable political parties to choose from, instead of TWO. Yeah, radical of me…..)
I was trying to come up with a profile of people who tend to favor punishment-heavy training methods, and these are the traits I’ve observed.
Profiling sucks, doesn’t it?
Oh:
“There is a certain subset of the population that completely lacks empathy for other beings and you will find them in every aspect of the horse industry.”
That I will agree with 10000000% ….
My last car was a 1991 Volvo wagon. I still have it, it still runs, great solid car, the seatwarmers still work, worth about $1500 now.
As for the Christian thing, that’s pretty moot…. how many starving horses on here come from farms that feature Bible verses all over their websites? Sheesh. I’ve met good and bad Catholics, Mainline Protestants, Evangelical Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, atheists and pagans.
Gotcha beat, I’m still driving my 1986 Volvo wagon!
I freakin LOVE that car. My current daily driver is a 2002 C320, because it’s muuuuuch better on the freeway (the Volvo has 4 little cylinders and NO cruise control) and on gas, and it’s fun to have a Mercedes. HAH, it was STILL cheaper than a new or year-old Civic or Corolla, but I get all the European bells & whistles. I expect it’ll be my daughter’s someday (she’s 5 now). Like the Volvo, I expect it to run forEVER.
Wow, maybe my 1992 960 wagon with just shy of 300K miles on it is worth more than I thought!
What’s the gun thing, anyway, though? I actually took riflery in high school and I enjoyed it, but there is no earthly reason for me to have one of my own. And I don’t see why anyone else needs one, either. OK, a 22 for that fun target practice, but why handguns? Why assault weapons? Yes, I would make an exception for subsistence hunters, but come on, how many of those are there?
I have to say, when I first saw that bumper sticker “When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns” I had to have it explained to me. It still just reads like a statement of fact to which the response is “so?” Substitute “meth labs” and see what I mean…
Talk about justifying violence…
HA HA! Yeah, we do have issues with nuance in this country. Things get painted with broad strokes – sooo we are “All or Nothing”: either we get to have ALL guns, ALL the time, or NO guns, not EVAR.
Personally, I have no problem with responsible hunting. I have no problem with recreational shooting. In fact I’m kind of obsessing over Cowboy Mounted Shooting right now, because it looks like a hoot & a holler.
I DO have a problem with violent criminals easily obtaining better weapons than the police. Er, ANY weapons, actually, but that’s a whole nuther issue.
and how is cruelty ever “Christian”???
It isn’t!
It’s not, but I see a lot of evangelical Christians defend harsh treatment of kids & animals with Old Testament justifications.
I dunno – ask the folks who started the Spanish Inquisition & the Salem Witch Trials….to name a few atrocities.
Totally offtopic, but finally, a horse got some sweet revenge:
This is what happens if you don´t feed your horse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27nH6VyAmgk&feature=channel
Ahm, in the dressage world, we refer to it as “crank and SPANK” – i.e., crank that head down (or up) and kick/whip that sucker forward. Such behavior with my 16.2 Araloosa would end up with me on the ground, and had I ever attempted that with my old boy, recently deceased, he would have stopped dead in his tracks and refused to move. Clearly, the “crank and spank” DQs have never truly dealt with the Appaloosa temperament, just WBs. (Not that I would EVER do that to any horse of mine)
Now, as to the reiners….Since I don’t go to AQHA, ApHC or APHA shows, nor even open reinings, I have not witnessed “crank and yank”, though I’ve certainly seen enough WP trainers crank and yank. The one reiner I HAVE seen “crank and yank” was at an ApHC show when I did show my old eventer as an open jumper at breed shows (and kicked ass – and he was 19. There wasn’t much competition) This guy did the yanking and cranking incessantly with a handsome stallion. He then went into his class. The horse did the figure 8s and spins and offsets perfectly. Then when the jerk went to do his run and slide, the horse just kept going, ran straight into the arena wall, flipped over backwards on the guy, got up and trotted away. Perfect! (except I hate to think what happend thereafter out behind the barn. Or maybe not – the guy ended up in the hospital and wasn’t in any shape to do anything for a while). On the good side – back in the good old days I did see reiners at the Cow Palace, and Ronnie Richards and Bob Knudsen come to mind. I saw Knudsen go to do his run and slide and a few stries before the halt, he just sat deeper, did a half-halt then slacked the reins and that horse hit the brakes and slid to halt on a totally loose rein, neck arched, mouth closed. Bob Avila has a good rep, but I’ve never seen him compete in person.
OY – How could I not, on the good side, remember to mention Sheila Varian and Ronteza. 14.3 Arab mare, 5’10″ Sheila. Hackamore champs at Cow Palace one year, open reining champs the next. And yet, somehow, when Cow Palace used to post a display window of the “Cow Horse Hall of Fame” there was nver a picture of Ronteza, only QHs.
ApHC is, bar none, the MOST abusive show circuit in my never humble opinion.
I’m sure people will have a cow about that comment but I believe it is true. It’s like the wild f’ing west, there are no rules, everybody is fixing tails and doing shady shit.
I can’t really speak to that, since I only showed on the breed circuit a very short time, and the incident I cited was the only one I saw. However, ApHC is such a QH clone, that I’m sure AQHA-type abuses run rampant. I only showed in jumpers – I figured even ApHC judges couldn’t screw that up. But they could screw up hunters. Once my green horse did a beautiful round, never missed a spot, good basicule, etc., etc. but he fumbled a flying change. He placed 2nd to a horse than went 1000 mph, head up, back flat, even hit a few fences, but by the deity, he did his changes, so obviously he was a “hunter.” Showing the breed circuit is an exercise in futility for anyone whose horse is properly trained for open H/J showing. As the breed people say, “It isn’t WRONG, it’s just different.” NOPE. It’s WRONG. I’ll stick to dressage, trail riding and trail trials with my Apps. Less prejudice against him in open shows than ApHC shows.
But But… we have the rope race!!!!
No, I used to ride App circuit. The people I rode with treated their horses very well, but I am well aware that not all do. I’m also aware of entire shipments of bloodwork for drug testing that never quite made it to the lab, for some odd reason.
Yep, I used to show Apps and while my basis of comparison is probably limited to the App world and hunter/jumper world, you’re not too far off. I saw some really bad stuff going on behind the scenes: yank and crank, “hanging” horses in their stalls overnight, drugs, drugs, drugs to make lame horses not so lame, out right beating in the barn area, a BNT whose fix for a horse who was acting up (read: ears above the poll) was to tie him to a donkey and let them out in an arena, all sorts of cosmetic tijuana special stitching and sewing (a gelding who couldn’t pull his penis up because of an infection had it shoved up into his sheath and stitched closed)… Wow, those are the first things that come to mind.
Not to mention the vengeful acts by competitors on each other: A horse gets his entire tail shaved off at the Nationals in the middle of the night, diruetics given so the horse loses an obscene amount of weight at the show… Sad.
I always thought ApHC was a little bush league comparative to other organizations in their total lack of monitoring and enforcement of practically any rules. I can remember someone substituting a horse in a youth class at the last minute (illegally, mind you) at the Nationals, making top 5 and no one saying anything when the announcer called the name of the horse and it was another. Speaking of rules and ApHC… Does anyone know why or how Shannon (McCullough) Verdier got herself suspended indefinately from the ApHC?
I would believe it from what I hear. I love the Apps but I don’t agree with a lot of the training methods. Everything you could possible want to hate happens; tail fixing, head tying, draw reins + spurs, forcing a frame, cruel bits and on and on…
I’ve only had two reining lessons, the first one didn’t could too much; I got to do a lot more at the second one. I was kinda nervous and unsure of myself. I snatched at the horses face by mistake a couple of times and timed my spurs badly and I kept apologizing to the horse and trainer, and the trainer said, “It’s okay, I’m sure he went through much much worse when he was being trained.” I felt so bad for him, he was a good horse but he seemed kinda unhappy and sour… wonder why ::rolls eyes::
I have a pretty hot headed friend from Germany who has done a lot of riding. We went to Congress last fall (it’s a horsy event, after all) and I tried to warn her about what she was about to see. We watched a hunter equitation class and western pleasure of some sort. My friend was outraged at the way the horses were ridden and the overall picture they presented. Can’t say that I blame her – there’s something really bracing about watching a show through the eyes of someone who has never seen anything like it before. The worst thing, for me, was the deadness of the horses in the line up. Granted, I’m used to Ay-rabs, who tend to be hyper alert, but to see 20 or 30 horses lined up with not a curious look around from any of them but just dropped heads and deep resignation…it was sad.
Soooo, was the rider DQ’d or allowed to continue? The only way to change the ridiculousness that is AQHA is to either A – refuse to support it in any way, shape or form; or B – become a judge and place the changes you want to see.
I don’t know about these breed shows and the color shows but in USDF you have to be able to ride the level you judge and there is extensive education and testing to become licensed. If it is something you feel that strongly about, you should pursue becoming a judge.
Why are crappy riders and trainers so addicted to AQHA and WP? Because you don’t really have to be able to ride well to win or ???
Well, intimidating the hell out of the horse does make them amateur-friendly if your definition of an amateur is someone who is only able to sit there and pose. You can sit like a sack of potatoes on a WP horse who is too scared to challenge you, and I’ve seen people do it. That said, doing it RIGHT involves a great deal of skill, no less than doing dressage or hunters correctly.
Today was a bad day for animals in our county. A man who was charged with 3 felonies (2 starving dogs and 1 dog with nylon rope imbedded into neck) was allowed to plead out to misdemeanor charges for the starving dogs and nothing for the rope. So……. I found out how to go about contacting the prosecutor, called them. Cried and pleaded for the foster horse that I have whose previous owner (county got posession officially last month) has been charged with many felony counts. I now have an appointment for Thursday with the prosecutor. Am listed as an official witness to be notified if anything is done, have the name and address of the judge and will be writing him a letter today. Thank you, fugly and everyone who encourages us on this blog for giving me the courage to step up and write to the judge and speak to the prosecutor. Treasure was 804 lbs when he came to me on October 29, 2009. He now weighs over 1200 lbs. He raced at Calder when he was 3 (6 claiming races one third place finish) went somewhere for 2 years and then starved in a yard here for 2 more years. He is 7. His name is O Paddy Boy. His grandfather on sire’s side is Danzig. He didn’t deserve his lot in life. He is not sound because of the starvation and how it affected his feet. His feet are improving on Glantzen and soon to be on Formula Powder. I just wanted you all to know a little bit about him. I told the prosecutor’s secretary that Treasure deserved his day in court, too, and that I would like to speak for him. Anyway, thank you for your encouragement. I will make it a point from now on to do more than just rehabilitate. I will go to court for them.
Good for you for speaking out. Keep us posted on the situation. Treasure has fallen into a tub of butter coming to live with you. He is a lucky fellow.
Good for Mary Ingwerson! It amazes me that “rules” are in place that are not followed in the show ring. I believe both the AQHA and ApHC has rules about “natural movement” and basically peanut rolling is not allowed anymore. The rules may be written but I have seen judges still choosing the overflexed, low headed 4-beating horse to win the class. The rules need to be enforced and the judges are the only ones who can get it done. The just need to grow some testes and not place the BNT’s who can’t follow those rules! Apparently, Mary Ingwerson is our woman!!!
My question is, how many AQHA judging jobs will she continue to get? I am curious to see what happens to her judging career in the next few years.
I competed in an “extreme trail” event held at an AQHA show a couple years ago. The trail was delayed and I ended up in the warm-up area for a couple hours just observing. I was amazed at the riders on the AQHA pleasure horses cranking and yanking. And, yes, the kids under the tutelage of their trainers. Long shanked bits, hands at shoulder level, and giving occasional yanks when the horse dared raise it’s poll near wither height or bring it’s nose out to vertical. And spurring to keep the back up for that “collected” look. I couldn’t believe it! It wasn’t just one rider, it was the majority! I also thought it was amazing that the trail event was organized by the local AQHA club and there were hundreds of entries in the AQHA classes but not one AQHA competed in the extreme trail. The only entries were Appaloosas!!! I wouldn’t have ridden any of those angry, overflexed, peanut rolling horses over a bridge either! It’s hard to yank and spur when the horse actually needs to think, look, and do something other than go down the rail!
I love AQHA horses. I just can’t stand the breed shows I’ve been to. And that goes for the Appaloosa breed shows, too. I’ve seen many talented and useful horses of both breeds at reining clinics and competing in various disciplines at local open shows and extreme trail competitions. None of those horses carry their heads excessively low. They are happy, free moving athletes.
Totally OT but I finally got an answer from my congressman regarding the abuse video from the Ohio dairy farm, back in May…
Thank you for contacting me. I appreciate the opportunity to respond.
As a member of the Congressional Friends of the Animals Caucus, I share your concerns about the safety of animals, both domesticated and in the wild. Over the years I have supported and sponsored many animal protection bills. I voted for the Depictions of Animal Cruelty act, (P.L. 106-152), which was aimed at outlawing “crush video” films, in which small animals are crushed to death. However, a recent Supreme Court decision (U.S. v. Stevens) found the language of the act to be overly broad and violation of the First Amendment’s guarantee of freedom of speech. I am a cosponsor of H.R. 5092, legislation to prevent these video depictions while addressing constitutional concerns outlined by the court. This bill has been referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary.
Numerous studies demonstrate that violent offenders often have childhood and adolescent histories of serious and repeated animal cruelty. In fact, the FBI uses evidence of past crimes against animals into behavioral analyses of suspected criminals. While the Animal Welfare Act regulates the treatment of animals in research, exhibition, transport, and by dealers, most laws against animal cruelty are crafted, administered, and enforced on a state level. There is currently no legislation before Congress to amend the Animal Welfare Act to protect domestic animals from individual acts of abuse. However, you can be sure I will keep your views in mind as policy options are crafted in the months ahead.
Thank you for contacting me on this important matter. In the future don’t hesitate to get in touch with me on this, or any other, issue of concern.
Now, I was specific in asking just how a farm that boasted about this sort of abuse was able to get in excess of $30,000 in farm subsidies. Notice how the Honorable Jerry Lewis had nothing what so ever to say about our money. I sent him another email today, reminding him that it was not the abuse I was concerned with but the money, it’s just about the money! It will probably take a month for him to answer that one too.
There is a great article in Equus about how to properly set a horses head for collection. A properly balanced horse will lower his head by RAISING THE BASE OF HIS NECK. Anyone who is familiar with dressage will say, “of course, you place your horse on the bit by raising the withers”. Furthermore, to raise his withers, the horse must have impulsion and balance from the hind end – it all comes from the hind end. There are no shortcuts to this. Cranking your horse in the face, using ty-downs and other forceful techniques (all of which concentrate incorrectly on head placement, not the overall balance of the horse) will result in the “peanut roller” look. This is false collection and false relaxation, and does not encourage the horse to use himself properly. However, it appears as though WP sadly favors this way heavily (though I do know of and have seen some happily and naturally collected horses in WP). Personally, I believe that all disciplines should encourage the natural, balanced movement of the horse, and not focus on artificially designed gaits. With that being said, this article is applicable to ALL disciplines.
Please don’t confuse a horse being “on the bit” with “being collected”. The are two entirely different things and are all too often confused. WP horses are not collected in the slightest sense, nor are they traveling on the bit.; they are moving in a very artificial poor excuse for a frame. The closest any western sport comes to pure collection is reining, and even that is a stretch.
Actually you’re wrong about that. A western pleasure horse can be collected and move from the hind end. I think you’ve just seen it done wrong so often and haven’t seen it done right. You have an open invitation to come and ride my horse and I’ll bet you can feel that he is collected and correct, even by dressage standards – just low headed.
Well, there’s “collection” and there’s collection. WP horses are not collected in the dressage sense, but they CAN be “engaged” and “foward.” I just think it’s a rare WP horse you see these days that is either engaged or forward. Sigh. I long for the good old days of the California-style WP horse, up in the bridle, arched neck but slack rein, ridden with braided reins and a romel, which at least gave you something to do with your right hand – holding the romel, resting on your thigh – not suspended in the air ina clenched fist as they do now with thesplit reins – looks ridiculous. Do people ride down the trail with their elbow bent and empty fist in the air? Where did THAT comefrom as proper equitation?
Meee tooooo
I love watching an old Arabian WP horse. They look so proud, elegant and FUN.
KIDS THESE DAYS… just don’t get it.
I agree with you that many people confuse those terms, but I tried not to above. That is why I said “head set for collection” – how to properly “set your horses head” (I hate that term, but it is what the authors used) for eventual collection. (“On the bit” is a much better concept than “setting their head”. One implies a positive forward energy into contact, while the other implies forcing your horse to go with his head a certain way. ) And I agree with you – many WP are neither on the bit nor collected. But they try to get their horses to “set their head” and actually be off contact and “light” by cranking (a false self carriage??), and create a false sense of what they would call “collection” (going slow) by making their horse afraid to go forward. But like Fugly said, you can have a WP horse moving both on the bit, and moving slowly in a correct, balanced manner by actually being collected. A high degree of collection is actually the ONLY way you can properly get a horse to move that slowly and be light on the bit. I’ve seen it done, but it just doesn’t look like it is being rewarded. People like shortcuts. And your right, the misuse of terms doesn’t help.
You guys, order a book called “Breaking and Training the Stock Horse (and Teaching Basic Principles of Dressage).” It was written in the 50′s by Charles O. Williamson, and it is brilliant on this topic. I haven’t been able to stomach strung out WP horses since reading this and taking lessons with one of his proteges.
I’ve seen the techniques work on stock horses and English horses. In fact, it was the only method that worked on my friend’s coldblooded hog of an awful TB—-a stubborn, hardheaded, heavy moving, lazy SOB who refused to even break into a gallop. The only horse I’ve ever actually despised. But these techniques worked to lighten him in the bridle and get him consistently engaged and THINKING.
I backed off using as much mouth contact in a snaffle as I used to, after learning from Wmson.
OMG I love that book! I found it buried in the library in this tiny town in Australia when I moved here a while back. It looks ancient and I didn’t know anyone else even knew it existed! Can you still get it?
Ordered it from amazon used, thanks!
One of the best books on training ever! I still have my copy, which I (omigosh) bought NEW.
“But like Fugly said, you can have a WP horse moving both on the bit, and moving slowly in a correct, balanced manner by actually being collected. A high degree of collection is actually the ONLY way you can properly get a horse to move that slowly and be light on the bit. ”
You can’t have a WP horse on the bit with no contact. You cant put any horse on the bit with no contact. They will run right through it. Few horses will carry themselves in a round frame with no education from the rider and I have never seen a QH do it. Their conformation alone makes it difficult.
WP horses aren’t moving slow because they’re collected, they’re just shuffling along with what little energy their hind gives them flowing from back to front and right out of their loose-reined mouths. There is no tracking up, indicating a lifted back and engaged hindquarters and their neck goes straight down from their withers. They are heavy on the forehand and you cannot have any degree of collection (you can be “on the bit” in a sense, but you have to have contact) with the horses center of gravity in their neck and head. I shudder thinking what a spectacle it would be if one tripped.
Fugs, I would love to ride a correctly-trained WP horse. Snaffle only, no curbs for me. I’ve never met your boy, either so it would be fun to do that. Grab a beer afterwards.
You really do have an invitation (since I know you and know how you ride, ha ha, that’s not an open invitation to the world). He is a pleasure to ride and he is absolutely round on no contact and loping from his hind end. It can be trained but what people have to realize is that it takes a LONG time to train it. I had people ripping on me for not having him in the show ring 30 days after he went to training. He didn’t go to a show til he’d been in training nearly one year. It is a slow process to do it abuse-free but of course, from my perspective, totally worth it!
Oh, and he’s still just in a bosal…he doesn’t have to show in a shank yet since he’s still 5. You’d like him hunt seat, too – he goes in a plain snaffle, no twists or turns or hidden ports or nonsense, just an awfully big D ring since that is the style du jour…
When I showed pleasure (1x or 2x’s) my instructor told me that the horse that won was the horse that the judge would want to ride him/herself. Your horse sounds like a straightforward, nice ride. Good luck changing the horse world and putting humane, sensible training in fashion.
The horse I ride goes in a rubber D-ring snaffle. I laugh at the people who can’t get her to stop. It can be done, so stop complaining and commit to learning how to do it properly!
“I shudder thinking what a spectacle it would be if one tripped.”
They somersault, usually.
While you’re right about proper head carriage coming from the hind end, I still believe there’s a (limited) place for some artificial head-set techniques, in combination with proper training, for FIXING horses that have already gotten into bad habits. Training the horse in correct self-carriage will not always cause the horse which has already learned to hold its head badly to compensate for a lack of self-carriage to hold his head better.
What I don’t understand is this: the rules now state that peanut rolling is bad and horses should not travel with the poll lower than the topline. So… why are these horses still winning?
I have this fantasy of being a costumed superhero with a riding crop and beating the snot out of bad judges. Or even being a judge and using my authority to refuse to place ANY horses in a class, even if it meant no one got any ribbons. But surely there’s some way in which good judges can be rewarded and bad ones dismissed, and then the rest would correct itself. Where do these people come from?
Well, one issue is we’ve now BRED them to go low. So, like my horse, we actually have to PICK his head UP because his natural position is below level. He went below level the whole time I was breaking him out, in a bitless bridle.
Yes, exactly. They are bred to travel low. Their necks go straight out from their withers. I suppose, ideally, there should be litle training needed to put them in that flat frame; no yanking, kicking or cranking.
But how do they balance, then? I am a Morgan fan — the way Morgans carry their heads seems to me much better balanced. And they don’t have any trouble reaching the grass LOL — or, frankly, doing their own imitation of peanut-rolling on occasion.
I’d think a low head would be a survival disadvantage, too — can’t see the predator coming from as far away.
Actually I think breeding horses to carry their heads SO LOW will prove detrimental – you want a sloping shoulder, sure, but within reason. Good QH’s already have laid-back shoulders – how else could a cutter get down & dirty with a cow, for instance? and their gaits are already correspondingly smooth.
I know quite a few horses who naturally go low at the walk, even if they’re not really “reaching.” Their necks come up slightly at the jog or trot, and then a horse MUST elevate somewhat at the base of the neck to lope/canter if its weight is to come off the forehand.
Someone earlier mentioned a slight arch to the neck, I’m thinking like you’d see on a long bridge, and flexion at the poll. I quite like that picture.
I just wish they wouldn’t use the term “set his head.”
Wow, I am really, really glad to hear there is at least one AQHA judge with some guts, morals and an actual conscience. I truly hope this woman is not penalized for her actions, but I have a feeling she will be. Obviously the “good ‘ole boy network” is WAY too alive and well in that organization.
There is a very large horseshow facility located just three miles from my house, and it hosts many different kinds of shows: H/J, gaited, breed-specific, etc. As desperate as I get for a horse fix sometimes (I just gotta see/hear/smell/pet them or I go crazy), I simply will not allow myself to attend any more AQHA shows. I tried a few times but there are just too many things that disgust, appall and upset me.
The last one I went to, I saw a trainer sitting still on a horse in the warm-up ring, yakking with someone for 10 minutes, and not for ONE SECOND did he quit yanking on the poor beast’s mouth. It was just non-stop yank-yank-yank. I couldn’t bear it. I felt like screaming across the arena, “LEAVE HIM ALONE, Asshole, he GETS IT ALREADY!!!!” I should have done it… wouldn’t care if I had to be escorted from the grounds, since I’ll certainly NEVER be showing AQHA. I suffered through a few minutes of a so-called Pleasure class, closely observing the spurring with the outside feet and yanking when the judges weren’t looking.
Next I went to the barn area. Peeked in some tack rooms and yup, practically the only bits I saw were teensy twisted wire snaffles and long-shank curbs. Then I found a horse that was about a 3 on the BCS. Spine/hips poking out, ribs clearly visible. I had recently read on FHOTD how some trainers will deliberately under-feed hotter Wenglish-style horses to induce coma-like gaits (this horse looked to be a mostly TB-type QH, so presumably used for Wenglish). Across from THAT horse was a horse tied in the stall on a short line attached near the top of the wall. He had a little play in it, but not much – certainly not enough to put his head below a 45-degree angle.
So all in all, a short tour of everything that’s terribly wrong in the Quarter Horse world. Not an experience I’ll be repeating any time soon.
email this posting to a friend stockton craigslist > for sale / wanted > farm & garden
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free appy mare (galt)
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Date: 2010-06-18, 9:12PM PDT
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OT This was in the Galt, CA craigslist. I sent it to your email also.
“Happy Appy” is a blind 12 yr old appy mare all white and in need of a good home she is an x polo horse and would be great for a family with a disable child as she is the most trusting and careful horse. She stop and listen and proceeds with caution instead of bolting. Please feel free to call or email for more info 209-334-1660
The last one I went to, I saw a trainer sitting still on a horse in the warm-up ring, yakking with someone for 10 minutes, and not for ONE SECOND did he quit yanking on the poor beast’s mouth. It was just non-stop yank-yank-yank. I couldn’t bear it. I felt like screaming across the arena, “LEAVE HIM ALONE, Asshole, he GETS IT ALREADY!!!!â€
Arm yourself with a video camera or cell phone that can take video. Then post it.
Yep! Send me the video! I’m ALWAYS happy to post abuse and I will NOT reveal my source. The only way they’d be able to find out is get a subpoena for my e-mail from Yahoo and good luck getting that.
Did not own a cell w/ video then, but now I do… I’ll keep that in mind if I can ever stand to attend one of those shows again!
Mary Ingwerson deserves a Judge of the Year Award or something similar.
I just emailed Ms. Ingwerson. I guess all y’all have already done so XD.
No, Ihaven’t. But if you end up in conversation with her, I’d be interested to know if she does 4-H youth horse shows.
I didn’t really make myself clear. When I emailed her, she told me about all the letters she’s gotten today from people all over the country because of Fugly’s post. She has a FB page if you’d like to message her.
I can’t tell you how many kids in my 4-H club…about 10 years ago…would jerk and spur…CONSTANTLY…
I used to say things…and they would just laugh at me…They won everything and their horses were MISERABLE!
It is KIDS watching…learning…and doing it too…so sad:0(
I remember winning on my meat pen horse…(one time) we beat EVERYONE…including a kids 30k horse! BAHAHAHA!
No jerking, spurring from me:0) It was a sweet victory! Everyone was mad…I didn’t get one congrats…whatev…
I CAN”T STAND Jerking…and Spurring…for no reason…I see it all the time at shows…all the time! :0(
I generally like all horse events, but the gymkhanas I’ve been to are filled with “cranky” kids and their over-bitted horses. It seems like the more crap the horse wears (tiedowns, long-shanked bits, etc.), the “higher” the estimation of the rider’s ability to stay the course (and stay in the saddle).
I remember several years ago the horse did “something wrong” (I think the girl came in second place) in a timed event and she “rewarded the horse” by making it back up really fast and for a long time. The horse’s mouth was wide open and it was obviously scared to death. The girl’s mother was “whoohooing,” and I had to turn away because it was disgusting. She was being rewarded for HER behavior, and the horse was being punished for being a second (or so) too slow. Talk about disgusting.
Good lord. I confused a girl (13 y/o who was riding my QH) by asking her to bump Venus with the bit. Venus at the time had her nose stuck out and was really strung out. The girl did this massive check on her, just wacked her mouth with the bit (thank god it was a training snaffle, not her show bit and that I only own smooth mild snaffles).
So Venus has this “WTF just happened” expression and I asked her to ride over to me, told her-and here is the point to the story- that 1) the only time you use that amount of force on a horse is if the head is down and horse is doing a bronco imitation and 2) the bump in a snaffle is sliding the bit through the mouth to hit the sides with the rings or bars of the bit. It it a piece of metal in the mouth imagine if that was your mouth.
Only had to tell her once, and thank god that Venus is forgiving. It was a IHSA day before warm-up. My two horses got pulled because Venus got ripped on by one school. The rider didn’t care and if she had pulled my other horse she would have been in the dirt.
I ride at a barn that a college team also rides out of. Some people just do not know how to ride. Some colleges are great. They’ll bring horses that have schooled for the class, riders that are in the proper division, and are willing to accept that their rider didn’t do well.
Then there are the colleges that bring in hot, barn sour horses; and that, almost without a doubt, kick. They will insist on doing their own girth, or walk a few steps or whatever (it’s against the rules). I’ve had the barn’s trainer have their rider get on and turn around to me and say, “okay, we’ll take it from here.” Um, no, you can’t. Never mind that I’ve ridden the horse before and I can tell you how they go, it’s against the rules!
And please, if your rider has not placed in a class, it’s because the other riders in that class are better. This is probably caused by your enthusiasm to promote riders to divisions they aren’t capable of being competitive in yet, or even riding in! It is not the horse, so please don’t have him dismissed from the show.
Anyway, my point is, I’m sure your horses are capable of whatever division you had them in and that the rider was just an idiot because I’ve seen really nice horses get pulled for little shit all the time.
I pulled my horses. There was no reason for her to be ridden like a piece of meat. Third class she was in, my other horse was in two classes. Two colleges have asked to use my horses. Problem is I can’t be sure that they will be safe (Venus couldn’t carry a bit for 2 weeks) and that they won’t freak when someone pulls their chin to their chest (My horses have no idea what to do with that much pressure.) I kid you not, 16 hand plus QH mare, and if there was 18 inches between the rider’s hand and Venus’ mouth I’d be shocked. Apparently the IHSA rider is an open english rider. The school’s horses must be saints.
Not all ihsa riders are “open riders’> my trainer, a very successfuL ‘au naturlel’ h/j trainer (no draw reins, bungee cords or any harsh bits.) trained an IHSA team and they were all very quiet handed. we also hosted 2 shows, and in those two shows, i only saw quality horses, and solid, quiet handed, riders. i’m not sure if it was just those colleges that had such good riders, but i did not see any snatching, tucking heads, or anything.
I rode IHSA for 2 years. They are, for the most part, very polite and nice riders. This specific school has a history of over-bridling horses, This specific rider was an open english rider (highest rank) in advanced western (middle of 5 levels.) She should have known better. (And, not for nothing, but her team mates were really rude, also.)
To clarify: IHSA is great, some individual members are not. And because the horses are pulled randomly I can’t say “she can’t ride my horse.”
If any IHSA riders read this: when the owner is telling you how the horse rides, listen to them. Good owners will tell you the horse’s training, if they tend to get excited, dance, get heavy of the forehand, cues. We want our horses to win and look good doing it.
Hmm… I just joined the Kansas QHA & almost went to that show! That would have been hysterical to see!
I’ll ask my friends this weekend & see if I can get some more dirt, uh… I mean details! =)
I’ve ridden for a QH barn for almost 10 years now. We train our horses for true all-around & I’m not talking wenglish with peanut-rollers & 4-beated lopes. Our horses have been used for dressage, fox-hunting, & driving along with your regular show classes like horsemanship, equitation, etc. Some BNB think we’re a joke because we don’t win western pleasure or whatever. But, nothing gives the owners more joy then to see their horses excell in ALL disciplines with young or amateur riders. I love riding a natural collected happy horse so I’ll never resort to extreme measures just to win & have my name called.
I postponed pursuing my AQHA judges license this year because I was also working on my instructor certification. I will most definately be at convention next year & hope that any of you that hate the way the breed circuits our going will join me, too. We definately need more people like Judge Mary!
I am really impressed by your horses. You sound like you’re having a lot of fun and you’re doing things that I have dreams about. You are definitely a winner in my book!
WooHoo Mary! I grew up going to shows she judged, she has been around a LONG TIME lol. I am proud to say that happened in a state you might not expect it! YAY for Ethics and a win for the horses.
Just wanted to note that a lot of newspapers have picked up this story and twisted it a bit. The mother posted on another board and she has said that they will try everything but if the foal cannot graze properly or begins to suffer it will be put down.