I’m starting to like the Arabian people so much …
Jun 15 2010
…that I may have to get an Arabian, LOL!
Gotta love this:Â Dozens of breeders/competitors, not at all anonymous, willing to say who was naughty and who was nice at the Egyptian Event!
Pure awesomeness. With pictures of abusive halter handling and naming names!
What a nice trend to see. The good people getting the kudos they deserve for having sweet, happy horses, and the bad apples getting the publicity they deserve. People being unafraid to speak up and report abuse, despite the fact that I’m sure they could be retaliated against. Impressive, indeed. Love it. Major, major applause!
OK so who has the guts to do this at a major AQHA show?
I’m waiting…Â
160 comments to “I’m starting to like the Arabian people so much …”
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Can someone explain all the handling terms to me? Pardon me for sounding like a snob (it’s ’cause I am a snob) but I’ve only ever showed horses who were expected to, you know, DO something. So I need some clarification as to shanking, bagging, and whipping the horse’s legs. What’s the point of this supposed to be?
It’s to further animate “living works of art” while spectators scream and bang their cages like rabid baboons to show their support.
Sort of like gladiators, ‘cept different.
The shanking (yanking of the lead which has a chain under the chin) is to move the horse backwards to shift its weight to the hindquarters. The whipping on various parts of the body can be to get the horse straight or to make it drop its back or to get it to lift its neck. I don’t know the intended purpose of leg whipping other than it is harder to see whip marks on the legs than on the body. The bagging is to get the horse to show expression and get an exciting entrance from the horse.
The reason for all of this is that halter trainers believe that in order to win, the horse has to give a show in center ring: they want the horse to stand with the front legs straight under the chest and the hind legs split with the left hind slightly back to accentuate a level topline, the neck to come very upright out of the withers, the head to stretch toward the handler’s hand, the weight to rock back on the haunches, all of the muscles to tighten like a body builder posing, the ears up, and the nostrils flaring.
Personally, I don’t understand how getting a show makes a difference, as a judge should be a knowledgeable enough horseman to see through a pose and judge conformation. The whole thing seems silly and pointless. I have seen big name halter trainers who get the job done without the bloody chins and whip marks, so it can be done. At any rate, halter is not my game and I am by no means an expert, but I hope that this clears up some of your questions.
Yeah, my trainer does a lot of Arabs and she has no problem making them “show” without any abuse whatsoever. You do have to have, you know, like, actual talent and feel to accomplish it…hence the problem with a lot of these asshats.
I’ve seen this done with Haflingers at auctions. While, thankfully, I have never seen any of them being whipped, the Amish love to run behind the horses cracking whips at their heels so they can scare the shit out of them. Guess they think that a white eyed, head up, braced neck horse looks appealing to potential buyers. Whatever! Though one time I did see a horse stop dead in his tracks and kick with both hind feet! The guy never got kicked but I think he thought twice about doing that again!
Fugs, I don’t mean to hijack this topic but I found this story so disturbing and apparently NO charges are being filed:
http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-061410-draggedhorse,0,7387072.story
I know and it’s being featured later today, I do know who did it and I’m going to let the court of public opinion decide on that one.
I would just love to know how someone has a horse ‘fall out’ of a trailer, and still get dragged to death. Logic says that for the leadrope to stretch that far, the horse would have been tied… how? In the back of a stock trailer, with the door open?
I really have questions. Oh, and my two cents– since when does a sheriff’s department have the medical knowledge required to determine that the horse died instantly?
and dragged it four miles.
Sorry. I feel it if they KICK. I simply do not buy this “I didn’t know” story. If you truly didn’t know, you were high on something.
Who was this wacko?????
When my other half who is a grown man regresses to babyhood and dances in his seat while I’m driving, I can feel the car shake, regardless if I’m driving 10 mph or 75. But we’re talking about a horse… and I am just not buying the “I Did Not Know” story either.
From the description of the witness, I’m wondering if the driver was on drugs. Witness says she wasn’t upset. Well, first of all, when I’m hauling I spend every minute feeling each bump in the back and praying my babies are okay, and second, if something like this DID happen, I’d be so upset they’d probably have to sedate me. What the heck? Why no charges?
Wholly CRAP, all this innuendo…. And not one lick of it comes from a verified reputable source. do we know the name of this mysterious woman?
You might try talking to someone who was actually there, someone who knows that it was exactly 2.5 miles, not the hugely exaggerated 4, or 4.6. You might try having a bit of compassion for someone that was devastated by the loss of the horse. Just my humble opinion.
Oh, only 2.5 miles, not 4. . . sorry, but no, that does not make one iota of difference, especially to the horse that was dragged. And I don’t see where there is any innuendo. . . the woman dragged a horse behind her trailer and didn’t realize it. This was not an ‘accident’. The trailer door was improperly closed/latched, the trailer was unsafe, the driver was driving erratically, the horse was not tied properly, etc (probably a combination of all these factors). Long story short, this absolutely could have been avoided and no, I don’t think I need to have any sympathy for the person who just lost their horse due to their own negligence. There is always some element of risk when hauling a horse, and freak things do happen sometimes, but there is NO WAY that there is an acceptable excuse for why this horse was dragged (for ‘only’ 2.5 miles!).
There was a lot of blood on the road for the horse to die instantly. Think about it: the horse has approx. 9 gallons of blood in its body. How much blood was on the highway? Here’s something people don’t think about- dead things don’t bleed; there simply isn’t any way to get blood out of a dead animal without a pump. A live animal bleeds because it has an internal pump- its heart.
Also, even if it was possible that a dead horse made a 2.5 mile blood trail, there is a pool of blood from the horse when he came to a stop. Dead things do not pool blood. That horse was alive enough to bleed out at the end of the ride for a few moments at least.
To think about the horse dying instantly would make many of the viewers feel better to know that the horse did not actually get dragged 2.5 miles alive, but it is improbable.
I too am confused as to how the horse was tied in the trailer. Why was there enough slack to let the horse come out of the trailer in the first pace and why did something not give sooner?
This can’t be the same person that’s been featured here before, can it? The woman who’s had two other horses just-oops-fall out the back?
Really? I would love to see it…I have a morbid curiosity.
Why do they wip the horses on the legs for? I know that ASB exhibitors use bags tied to the ends of whips (I was told to get the horse’s attention and to “liven them up”) but whats the explanation of this 3 or bags being used and what for? Whats the purpose of hatefully shanking a horse and to the point of a horse rearing and flipping over? Whats the purpose of the hitting, punching or menacing of the animals? I have shown/trained horses (halter and ridden) for years and have shown/trained TWH flat shod and halter (not in big shows) and I have NEVER had to resort to abusive or nutty behavior to get my horse to perform well. The Saddlebred shows can be just as abusive at the TWH and apparently the Arabian shows. I worked for a ASB trainer and the amount of abuse was horrid, I quit working there shortly after hiring for I just could not stand the abuse going on and the trainer was supposedly a well known trainer. These shows, ALL OF THEM, need to clean up thier acts and refuse such behavior to occur PERIOD and stronger punishments thereafter. Even the smaller shows and country shows have lost control of the behavior and excuse it because they dont want to lose the income. I dont want to be associated with such nastiness.
I am glad the the bad trainers and handlers are being exposed……its about time!!!
The “bags on the end of whips” to get ‘em worked up just seems so weird to me (the last thing I want is my horse in a tizzy over ANYTHING!!). I guess it’s all in the way you do it, since the gal who started my young gelding “flagged” him with shredded plastic bas on the end of a dressage/buggy whip—–but the point was to get him used to accepting weird stuff, not to get him buzzed up. I used to use it as part of my ground work warmup with him when he was 3.5 – 4.5 years old. Don’t bother any more and he certainly is one horse that does NOT spook at plastic bags blown by the wind. To him, plastic bags signfiy nothing or CARROTS! And he’s half-Arabian-LOL-so going ga-ga about plastic bags is obviously not a breed trait!
Honestly, I hate the use of plastic bags as a training aid, whether it’s the NH people or the halter people. It just makes horses scared of plastic bags which is pretty frightening considering how often they blow across the landscape in the course of a horseshow!
Truly, Cathy, it made plastic bags a “non-event” for my guy. He now views plastic bags as ignorable unless they contain carrots. Of course, the cowgirl draped them gently over his body (including his head) and “waved” them around at the end of the whip in his vicinity, speaking calmingly to him, praising him when he did NOT react to them – definitely the opposite of what Arab halter trainers apparently do.
I have a video of one of my earliest dressage lessons. A plastic bag blew across the arena as we were trotting across t he diagonal. My “Steady Eddie” just ignored it (we do a lot of trail riding and plastic bags caught on the brush or blowing across the “prairie” are quite common). The instructor commented, “What a good boy.” About two seconds later we came across the big wet spot where the sprinkler had leaked while wetting down the arena. My horse avoided THAT like the plague ;o)
Everything is relative, I guess.
The mare I was riding the other day was jumping over the pee spot on the rail. She is a polo pony and nothing normally rattles her but ooooh boy no WAY was she putting her hoofies in pee.
HA! My gelding, who is a notoriously steady and calm to the extreme will sometimes have a day when he is allll pumped up and wants to be a 17 hand eventer. On such days, he will blast along the trails and jump any stick in our path.. and long blades of grass… even the occasional shadow if he’s in that kind of a mood.
I just laugh at him. I suppose I’ll never get *that* particular ‘vice’ trained out of him, huh.
My horse is maybe a hair over 16.2h.h. He does not like vets, although as long as what they are doing is routine, he will behave. However, if he feels they are going to “hurt” him, i.e., a needle is going to be involved, he becomes 18 hands, easy! I was leading him up to the vet, who is an experienced horsewoman, and she exclaimed, OMG he’s grown, he must be 17.2. I said, nope, 16.2. She swore I had to be wrong. Then she managed to get the ACE into him……Yup, said she, he IS 16.2, not 17.2. LOL
There was a big plastic garbage bag blowing around the barn a couple of days ago, and my mare wanted to chase it! There are things that bother her (puddles! goats!) but plastic bags are *fun* in her opinion.
Forgot…it seems mostly Arabianh people, however, who do the “chase ‘em around with rocks in a plastic milk bottle.” Y’know, if my horse wants to run in turnout, he will. I DON”T chase him. I NEVER chase a horse to it to exercise. It can do what it wants in turnout – run or not, but if it needs exercise, then I’m going to ride or lunge. Or to quote my old event trainer, “If you come off on cross-country, do you want your horse’s first impulse to be to RUN AWAY FROM YOU?”
Who will do it at the AQHA shows? Try nobody. At least, nobody the show manager believes has any credibility.
Chances are the BNTs are doing it themselves, and the non pros (that could complain) are riding under them. The independents don’t want to be blackballed.
The second biggest stumbling block, is trainers vehemently resist having any of their violent methods labeled as abuse. With them, it’s always “schooling.” All that shit that goes on in the warmup pen? Schooling. Relentless spurring, snatching, yanking, checking, fencing a horse thirty times in a row, spinning a horse for ten minutes straight – that’s all schooling. You see, only the Chosen Ones get to dictate what’s abuse. Unfortunately, with them, anything goes and nothing is abuse.
All that shit about cleaning up the pleasure industry? I remember hearing about cleaning up the pleasure industry back in the early 80s, when the peanut rollers reigned supreme. In fact, every year or so, there’s a claim, no – this time – they’re serious (like, all the other times were bullshit?) about cleaning up the pleasure industry. Yet, for more than 30 years, pleasure horses still get yanked, spurred, bumped, canted, intimidated, travel with their ears well below their withers… Hell, now, most of them travel like those plastic drinking birds that dip their heads up and down in a water glass, bobbing up and down like oil drilling rigs. Hop in back, bob in front, hop in back, bob in front – that’s how they’ve adapted to moving so slowly. Natural, my ass. You see any of these horses on video – at liberty – they sure as fuck don’t move like that. So, just how are these pleasure-bred pleasure horses moving naturally because “it’s bred into them”? It’s a man made gait, as contrived and phony as a two dollar drag show (and not nearly as much fun).
The reason AQHA has not cleaned up its act is the same reason it condones horse slaughter: some of the membership want it that way. And that portion of the membership are the ones paying the entry fees, and sending their culls off to slaughter. They don’t want anyone telling them they can’t behave like a bunch of self-indulgent assholes. It’s contrary to their DNA.
I was an AQHA show manager years ago, and it was just starting to get ‘openly’ bad in the reining warmup pen. Temper tantrums, lots of spurs… Now, you’ll see stuff bordering on torture pr0n in the warmup pen, depending on the level of event they’re attending. It’s some sick, sick shit going on out there. I decided, around that time, I was no longer going to support AQHA in any shape, fashion, or form. I figured fuck those horse beating rednecks, I’d show A or B-system open any day before I’d stoop to that level.
Now, with the Pinto association opening their registry to solids, I think that’s the direction I’m heading. People can laugh all they want, but I’d rather hang out with a motley crew any day and keep the showing fun, than a bunch of chickenshit, horsebeating, assholes that adamantly resist reform. I’m taking my plain ole sorrels and my shovel, and leaving the kitty litter sandbox known as the AQHA.
Elvis has left the fucking building.
This.
Here’s my problem. I firmly believe you NEED the AQHA shows to build the value (particularly in my case, as a stallion owner). But I don’t like watching the abuse and I don’t want to be a part of the system allowing it.
I love the Pinto shows. I love the Buckskin shows. I haven’t been “blackballed” at either – in fact, people have come up to me and hugged me for doing this blog. My horse has been to one of each show and gotten 1sts and 2nds in WP, HUS and Trail and a Res. Champion at halter. Apparently not being blackballed. (Memo to pissy breed circuit girl who was upset she was featured here: So sorry to inform you, you failed miserably at making sure, and I quote, “no judge would ever use my horse.”)
My horse is NOT the physical type to go win in USEF competition. He’s a Quarter Horse. He looks like a Quarter Horse. He carries his head like a Quarter Horse. He moves like a Quarter Horse. And if he doesn’t go to the AQHA shows, the assumption will be that he is not good enough to cut it there. And often, that is the reason people do not go to the AQHA shows. How would you not go, and yet not have that stigma apply to your horse? What competitive alternative is there for a horse like mine?
I haven’t figured out the answer to this myself. I keep thinking we have to storm the gates of the AQHA shows with non-abused horses and non-abusive training and just beat the pants off the assholes. But is the system too corrupt to permit that? I hear people like you (a lot) but I also hear people who say bullshit, you can go in there and do things differently and still win.
I guess we’ll see.
Recently I discovered the Wisconsin Ranch Horse Association (part of the ARHA) and the few shows I have been to to watch seemed better. It is only open to stock type horses but rules state working tack, no fake tails, no silver halters, no hoof polish, and jeans and western type shirt for showing, which just seems kind of like a relief to someone who hates all the glitz and glam at many breed shows. As I have not really been involved in showing with them as of yet, I can not state that the politics are any better than AQHA but it seemed to me as thou it was much more performance based than a lot of the other AQHA stuff if have watched. They did a lot of cattle classes, reining, breakaway roping, sorting, trail/obstacle, and even barrels and poles. They still have some halter and western pleasure w,t,c classes but these did not seem to be the main focus of the show, and of course there are no enlgish classes.
Don’t know if it helps but it is something I was planning on trying out.
But I loooove my silver headstall.
That’s the problem. I don’t like either alternative. Why can’t they be pretty but not beaten?
And that’s probably the difference. You’ll be hugged at the Buckskin and Pinto shows, but probably not at AQHA shows, since they seem so have so much more abuse.
You could certainly show AQHA, and ride in the same warmup pen as the yankers, crankers, spurrers, and snatchers, but would you say/do anything if you saw it? Would you complain if you saw outright abuse at any and every show you attended? Probably Fugs would, but it certainly would not be pleasant or make many friends. It would get old in a hurry.
There are two separate issues here. First, the abuse going on at the shows. Two, do you need to abuse your horse to win? Even if a number competitors don’t abuse their horses and win, it hasn’t affected the ones abusing their horses and winning, particularly since it appears the majority of non-abusers are content to win, but remain silent about (or feel helpless to change) the abuse going on around them. The abusers still win their fair share.
“Well, I don’t beat my horse and I’ve been able to place and win.”
“Okay, but you just spent three days on a circuit riding around people who did, giving money to an organization that happily tolerates it.”
Doesn’t strike me as the stuff heroes or game changers are made of. It’s like hanging out at a wife beaters convention, then proudly proclaiming, “But I don’t beat my wife!” Still, who the hell wants to hang out with a bunch of wife beaters? Is there some kind of nobility in ignoring it? How is that helping the wives still being whupped on?
This is why the AQHA does not have my support. I don’t want to hang out with a bunch of wife beaters, just to say I’m one of the few that doesn’t beat my wife. Because wife beating is sick, and I don’t want to be around it. And the ones beating their wives get off on it, and I don’t, and I’m the minority.
Actually, I don’t start shit with people at shows. That is my compromise – I’ll go there, I’ll participate but I am trying not to do things that would draw fire to my trainer or the other competitors from my barn. After all, that would not be fair to them.
Have I made one private complaint to the show management already? Yes. It was for a blatant rules violation.
It is a challenge to balance being IN the system and fighting to CHANGE the system, but I don’t at all feel that I am alone. A lot of people want the change.
I can’t reject the whole system without rendering my horse valueless, and I’m not willing to render my horse valueless and geld him when he’s doing so well and I genuinely believe he’s the sort of QH we need to have more of – pretty, good moving, quiet and versatile.
“OK so who has the guts to do this at a major AQHA show?”
Until people are unwilling to compromise and “start shit” at shows, there isn’t any incentive for AQHA to stop or even question the abuse that is commonplace at shows. None whatsoever. If people are afraid to speak up because it might reflect poorly on their barn, or their trainer, or their horse… just what mythical planet do these gutsy people come from?
It’s not about “reflecting poorly.” It’s about the fact that just because *I* feel strongly about topic A, and *I* am willing to deal with nastiness and retaliation in order to speak up about it, that does not mean that I should not at least try to minimize the effects on other people in my life who may not feel as strongly about the topic as I do, or who make their living in the industry which I do not. I’ve always said, one reason I can do this blog is that I do not live off the horse industry. I do make money off of it, but it’s not my main source of income.
You make a very good point with your wife abusers convention. However, the way I see it is that if the good guys drop out, then only the bad guys are left to set the standards. If enough of the good guys get prizes without the abuse then those will be the people to emulate. After all, it is about winning for many many people. So, if the winners are using non-abusive techniques, then that is the trend that the industry will follow. If the only winners left in the system are the abusers, then that is all there is to follow.
I meant “wife abuser convention analogy”
yaa-hoo to you. I knew there was a reason I dislike AQHA people in general. You have said it in a nutshell.
Amen~
I don’t understand the Western Pleasure thing. I mean, why does anyone WANT a horse to travel slowly? It seems to me that the logical goal of a horse that was a pleasure to ride western would be a horse that covers ground QUICKLY but smoothly. Why does anyone want a horse with no head? If they stumble with their heads like that, they go down, and it’s stupid.
I’m a fan of eventing and jumping because there seems to be less nonsense. If 99% of the jumping world all suddenly as one decides to follow a really dumb fad, the other 1% will win, because the horse is actually doing something, and training the horse to move badly isn’t going to help him get the job done. I suppose the same is true of, say, rodeo disciplines, I’m just not as familiar with them.
In every situation that doesn’t police itself naturally by requiring the horse to function in some way, the fools all end up rising to the top. I guess it’s what you might call Original Sin. Given the freedom to judge, all people everywhere will reward nitwits, and reward the biggest nitwit with the biggest cash prize. It’s not just horses – with dressage people all behind the bit, and Walking horse people crawling along like spiders while their horses’ hocks swivel and collapse, and Arabs flipping out like hooked fish – it’s dogs, with boxers that can’t deliver babies without cesarean sections, and cats, with Siameses that look nothing like the original type and all have asthma. It just seems like there isn’t a sufficient number of not-INSANE people to keep the insane ones from dominating everything that happens when humans try to breed animals.
Speaking of, the Germantown Charity Horse Show was this weekend. It’s my annual foray into the world of gaited horses, since at the Charity there are hunters during the day, jumpers at dusk, and gaited at night. I just have to ask, honestly: What is wrong with Big Lick Walker people? Where do they come from, what makes them think that’s attractive in any way? If you put all the Big Lick Walker judges in detox for two weeks, would it help?
I saw a horse with about a 300 lb rider whose fetlocks were literally brushing the ground because the stacks put so much stress on his hind end. This horse quite literally collapsed twice during the class – I thought he was going down. I have never before in my life seen a horse go down in the back!
Even if they stop soring, this sport will never be okay. It’s vile and disgusting and dysfunctional to make animals wear high heels. They need to ban the stacks.
Well, I will say that the western pleasure lope (when it’s still a THREE BEAT gait and is not hopping/stupid) is darn comfortable
So I don’t hate it. As for headset, well, they have been bred at this point to go low and I don’t really have an issue with that. Some of the polo ponies I ride lope with their necks suspiciously close to level and it’s merely a sign of relaxation. So low doesn’t equal bad, it’s HOW you got them low.
I have trained, ridden and shown WP and I also despise the exessive low head sets. If a horse’s neck comes out of the shoulder a little high then its not comfortable for them to travel with thier necks and heads so low to the ground. When I look for WP prospects I also look how the neck comes from the shoulder (along with thier entire conformation and balance). For a WP prospect I like to see a neck that comes out of the shoulder a little low so that the horse naturaly will carry thier necks and heads a little low. This also keeps from having to force a higher set neck and head lower than is comfortable for the horse. In my opinion a head that is carried lower than the height of the peak of withers is TO LOW. In my vision of a moving WP show horse I like to see the poll either level with the peak of withers or just slightly above with a nice verticle line of the head. The neck should still be well develped and blend into the poll with a very slight arch that is acheived by the horse being on the bit (from head to rear, rounded body and a hip that is engaged) and giving at the poll. The horse should not drag thier feet or jab into the ground with thier toes. Each footfall should be deliberate and well placed under the horse’s movement. The lope should be 3 clean beats with no dragging of the hind feet. The horse should work in a rounded manner on the bit and on light rein with minimal use of cues and rein use by the rider. The horse should look attentive but not excitable and not like he would rather be dead than doing his job or bored beyond the point of wanting to fall asleep. The rider should ride with a centered, balanced manner with light hands and keeping the hand that is not being used to hold the reins bent at the elbow level with the rein holding hand. Allowing the non rein hand to hang to the side adds to imbalance even if it is minimal. Some horse’s personalities do not fit into the WP category. Just because he is WP prospect physically does not mean he is WP mentaly (emotionaly or personality).
I worked with an Arabian Gelding that the owner wanted to do WP with him. Physically he could pass for such dicipline. Mentally/personality…..absolutly not. He got bored quickly then began to liven things up on his own. He was not happy at all with the WP thing. He would have been much happier with something along the line of reining, even possibly Hunter or someting else that kept his mind busy. Even competative trail riding. He could get excitable if the handler was excitable and he did not respond well to physical repremanding. I never used a wip on him but I have seen another rider do so and he promptly dumped the rider and left her in the dust. She deserved it. If you screamed or yelled at him he would purse up is lips and lay back his ears. He did not like to be smacked or hit even by hand in a nasty manner (he would bite out at you or snap his teeth together) but he would straighten up from that simple warning if he was being a bit of a turd. I smacked him on the shoulder one time for crowding me. He snapped his teeth and shook his head but he moved over and stayed put. (he knew better than that anyways) He was willing to work, very intelligent, could be cheeky at times, decent mover, and a different personality that you worked with and not against. . I’d say if you smacked his legs with a whip you would be missing a head. Once i figured him out we worked nicely together and there were no whips, shanking, bagging, screaming or yelling at him. I like to stay quiet when working with animals anyways. This Arab was Egyptian and Polish cross. He was sold to an Arab that matched up pretty well personality wise. Mickey( barn name of the horse) and his new owner didnt take any bullshit from one another. The last I known of the two they were still together. Arabians are smart horses and very sensitive, I dont understand the need to use such harsh training methods on them. (or any horse for that matter) I think they are beautiful in thier own right. Arabians are not my breed of choice but I still think they are wonderful horses.
If judges rewarded WP horses for smooth, easy MOVEMENT, and not the spot where their damn nose is… what a different discipline it would be.
Horses with higher necks like Arabs should be shown old-fashioned “California Style” (not the weird overbent travesty we see today), and horses with lower necks? Who cares if the poll is level with the saddle horn if the horse is flexing at the poll, responsive to the rider, and moving in a smooth flowing manner?
My big AQHA dressage/HJ gelding has such a smooth trot that even out of shape amateurs like ME can sit it, easily, even when he’s going at a fairly strong pace. My big old boobs don’t even bounce.
THAT is what you breed and train for, NOT post legs, low shoulders, melting-off-the-ass tailbones, downhill movement, improper gaits or canting its butt in….
Apart from universal abuses in a particular horse sport (such as TWH and Saddlebred), no discipline or breed is exempt. Jumping and eventing are full of abuses too. It’s just that no one challenges them. These folks have the money and profile to hide their abuses, and prevent their disclosure.
E.g. Big Ben had two colic surgeries, 10 months apart. At 16. Time to retire the gentleman, I think. But no. His incisions are barely healed, and Ian Millar keeps campaigning him at the same level. Then the trailer crash, where Ben’s buddies get killed beside him. Oh dear. They wipe the blood off his cut face, and on to the next high level event.
I know a groom who worked for one of the biggest names in show jumping. They hammered finishing nails into the kneecaps of their horses to get that beautiful lift over the rails. The horse’s sides had puncture holes from sharpened spurs. They stopped the puncturing just long enough before show season to heal up, and covered scars with shoe polish.
There’s a former Canadian Equestrian Team rider who the SPCA just gave several orders to for medical treatment for his badly neglected and abused animals. No one in the horse community is taking umbrage. After all, the guy’s a hero.
A lot of jumping and eventing horses get very little turnout. And then, only in tiny paddocks with no social contact, for fear of injury. Four hours a day outside is considered plenty for these animals. Some dressage horses get 0. It’s very sad.
This is all a very good point. I see a lot of “MY discipline isn’t EEEEEVIL” comments on this blog, but ya know what, EVERY DISCIPLINE HAS ASSHATS. I’ve said it before and I’m sure I will say it MANY times again!
I agree 100%. Every dicipline has its problems. Some are worse than others but none is exempt.
No one wants a lame jumper, so I have serious doubts about that finishing nails story. In thirty years of working with jumper riders, I’ve heard exactly one rumor about rapping that might have had some substance to it. Performance people can and do try to conceal lameness… but even more than that, they’re trying to keep the horse from not BEING lame, because a lame horse is of no value. Since most competitors are riding geldings, there’s every motivation not to destroy a good horse.
The main difference between other disciplines and something like Big Lick is that even when Big Lick is done as well as it can be, it’s still appalling. It looks terrible, and now that people are more aware of animal cruelty, it was interesting to hear the comments of non-horse people at a family-friendly show. One little girl asked what was wrong with those horses and if she would get to see “real horses” too.
An extra “not” snuck into that sentence.
It should be trying to keep the horse from being lame.
Cathy, any chance we could get a preview window for our posts here, or is that up to you?
If I can find a plugin for it, I will!
Alliecat, don’t even imply that I am lying, just to defend the abuses in your preferred discipline. They are many and widespread. I’m not giving the name of the barn because I’m not willing to possibly get sued for what I can’t outright prove. I can give an opinion about Millar/Big Ben because everything I said is public record.
I sat with this groom, who was torn apart by what she’d witnessed. You certainly can tap nails into a knee at a particular angle without instant damage. There are spaces within the structure; study anatomy. Long term damage, is another matter. The groom had to decide whether to be instant mud in that world, when she’d spent plenty of bucks on US horse college and was untrained for anything else.
I grew up in a horse family, and had my first pro job at twelve. I’ve seen just about every damn thing, in several disciplines. People are capable of any atrocity, at any time. Believing that certain classes are exempt, creates and perpetuates misery. Our universities educate social workers to believe that child abuse occurs mainly due to poverty. The first thing workers check is the accuseds’ income level. There is just as much grotesque child abuse and wife beating in wealthy homes. Social workers are taught to blind themselves to it. And sometimes when they see it, they discount it. The same is true in horse society.
We as a society, and as individuals, willfully blind ourselves to the animal abuses of the wealthy and high class. Eventing and jumping can be as grotesque as anything with Arabs or QHs (been there, too). I knew a jump trainer and dealer who routinely tranked and lunged the s**t out of insane horses. She left a trail of other peoples’ broken bones behind her, and laughed at their stupidity. Of course, the crazy horses were quickly shipped. An angry husband often doesn’t stop to think of the new horse’s wellbeing when his wife is in a hospital bed.
Or trainers who use twisted wire bits and the like, then switch out to snaffles when the owner is due to visit.
I trained with a dressage coach who whipped the hell out of her horses for minor infractions. Sometimes just for nervousness. Sometimes, just because she was a bitch. She got pissed with my horse, and took away his water for 36 hours. The groom was so terrified of her, he just about peed his pants telling me.
You want to talk about jumping on injuries? My God, some jumper training barns have so much bute in the locker, it’s like a pharmacy. I’ve seen horses jumped whose legs are trembling from pain. And horses with their heads tied down all day, to wear them out. Both jumper and QH barns use the tie down method. You want to discuss rollkurr? That sh*t’s been going on in training barns for decades, and not just for an hour at a time. All.F**king.Day.
Just as the old axiom goes, that “the slave knows more about the master, than the master will ever know about the slave,” the person who sees the most are the grooms and stable hands. The things that happen in midday, when there are no clients around. I’ve worked at every level except Olympic (though I’ve worked at the qualifiers). On the stock horse side, one of my stallions won a US National title. As an owner, I’m one of the obnoxious ones who drop in unexpectedly at 10 am. Hell, I’ll drop in at 4 am if my spider senses are tingling.
I’ve also been with working class people who barely had a pot. They made sure their horses had what they needed. It had nothing to do with their discipline, income or social class. Oh, except for the decidedly blue collar QH trainer who decided he “didn’t need no darn vet,” and performed major surgery without anesthetic. The horse died of shock.
There are humane people in every level of every sport, and supreme dickheads too. People are people. And frankly, I prefer horses.
Very well done, Treasure. Anyone who has the mentality that no abuse occurs in their chosen discipline and that they need to point fingers at everyone else simply has not work as an insider at the highest levels of their discipline. Sorry to generalize, but it is usually the local type Dressage and jumping crowd who like to insist that they know all about what goes on at the highest levels and it’s just the breed show folks who do nasty things to horses.
I meant to say:”… BELIEVE that it is just the breed show folks doing nasty things”
“I prefer horses”
Beautifully put.
There are horses that cover ground quickly and comfortably: they’re called gaited horses, and they were/are bred for that purpose.
BtB…. I *heart* you.
NOTHING will change until the JUDGING changes.
Yep, the wheels are still spinning because all those old farts are still the same BNT/BNJ with their tongues up each others’ butts.
It would probably take a large, top-level coalition of the winngingest trainers, owners, and exhbitors, and I don’t see THAT happening anytime soon. All the newbies are brainwashed into thinking it’s NORMAL, and the ones doing the brainwashing have all the power.
Yeah, the brainwashing of the newbies is a real problem. I keep hoping they read my blog and get an opposing viewpoint.
Educational moment requested:
What is “bagging” and why would there be bags in the stands? Are people trying to spook horses in the class, like a-holes at AQHA shows who “kiss” from along the rail? One of the posters mentioned her horse knew when he saw the bag that it was time to show – does the horse see that bag and say “Dear God – torture time again!”?
Why is whipping the horses’ legs a training device? Is it to make them wrangy, like keeping a hackney completely wired on drugs, confined to a tiny dark stall with weights on their feet, or hand-rapping a jumper to make them snap? I thought that in halter you’d want them to stand still?
I only ever saw one warm up for an Arabian class many moons ago when I groomed at the Royal Winter Fair and it looked like a wild west show. I’ve also seen more than enough of abuse at AQHA shows and the small fairs I showed as a kid. I thought we got into horses because we loved them. What happened?
Please explain and thanks!
It’s all for animation – the big eye, the “spirit”, the stretch of the neck. They whip the legs and shake bags all over the place to get the horse wired up and rocking back ont heir haunches, then pull them forward to stretch out and arch their neck. Scary, having a rocket on the end of a lead rope ready to explode, especially since the handlerrs give the horse the whole darn lead and only hold onto the end. Can anybody say “loose horse”?
The shanking (yanking sharply on the lead shank) is never acceptable in my book. The horse is wearing a halter made of cable or leather that is extremely thin, and the chains are also very thin. Yank on that, and there is an intense amount of pressure in some very sensitive areas unpadded by any fat or muscle. Ouch!
But the horse does look pretty when everything is done correctly (ie, horse happy and not spooked, bag = fun show off time, tapping on legs, not whipping, etc). I don’t know why you would ever punch a horse. Wouldn’t it just hurt your hand?
I actually got so enraged at the picture of the Paradise Arabians guy whipping that horse across the leg I emailed them stating how disgusted I was and asking whether they would like to make a statement as to whether they recognise this man as one of their trainers. I only after that continued to read on and realized that someone posted a name I assume goes with the guy – Frank Holloman
WTF
Oh, does this bring back memories — bad ones — of going to Arabian shows in the 1970s and seeing the nonsense that is called “Arabian (pick the gender/age) at Halter.” A shoer I used back then said, “If the horses are dancing all around and running sideways to avoid the handler and the whip in his hand, how can the judge tell if the horse is straight-legged or not.”
Glad the spectators spoke up and the show officials listened to them. Now let’s see if the show officials DO anything. Some of the worst abusers are those with a lot of money and it’s important for the shows to make enough to pay their expenses. If the “big bucks barns” don’t feel welcome (because someone speaks to them about their practices at the shows), they won’t come back.
One of the worst offenders back in the 70s is now showing Andalusians or Lusitanos. If he’s not able to show them himself (he’s “no spring chicken”), he’s training younger handlers. Ew.
I’m not a big fan of halter anyway.
“A shoer I used back then said, “If the horses are dancing all around and running sideways to avoid the handler and the whip in his hand, how can the judge tell if the horse is straight-legged or not.—
Probably the reason they started showing them in that style! You can’t see it, you can’t knock ‘em for it!
Ha, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if that was a teensy bit of the reason. Although I’m sure it was mostly so they’d look like fiery desert fairy tale magikal horses = ) If you look at a LOT of the arab mags though, you’ll see many studs pictured in tall grass that comes to their knees… My grandmother (long time horse trainer who spent quite a few years in the arab world right around the boom in the 80s) theorizes that many of these lovely looking studs have unfortunate legs and feet that look much better hidden in tall grass. I have to believe there’s some truth to that, haha.
In all seriousness though, I grew up riding arabs, then saddlebreds, and now have switched over to more dressage and jumpers… It’s amazing to me the conformation flaws you see in certain breeds because people are trying to breed for one specific trait. In the arabs, I saw a lot of crooked legs and not so great feet – people were breeding for a pretty head, not for solid structure. In the saddlebreds, I saw a lot of long backs and weak hind ends – people breed for a breathtaking front end and forget about the rest of the horse (they tend to have great feet though – you need good feet if you want to keep shoes on long toes, haha…) In the QH world, you see post legs and teensy feet – people are just worried about their horses looking like muscled bull dogs (or “trantering” peanut rollers…)
When I switched to dressage/jumping, it was interesting to see the solid build of most of their purpose bred horses. Sure, a pretty head is nice (I’d argue a good head can be a great indicator of a horse’s trainability and compatability with different riders/owners), but a pretty head is nothing if it’s on top of crooked legs, a weak hind end, or bad feet. A stunning front end is nothing without a solid motor. Yes, conformation faults exist within these breeds too, but breeders of sport horses seem to be a bit more responsible so far – even without the strict approval process most WB breeds have.
PS: how can we implement a WB-esque approval system over here? A lot of our American breeds/American breeding programs are being sullied with poor breeding practices. If you want to breed it and have registerable offspring, you have to get it approved – I know it’s time consuming and some breeders would be against it. But the BEST breeders, who are often some of the biggest breeders (many exceptions to this obviously), would benefit from it if they already are producing high quality stock. Yes, there would be some fees involved, but you’d also be able to charge a bit more for your approved offspring once it took off. Breed registries need to bite the bullet and clean up their act (in so many ways besides just breeding as well…)
“PS: how can we implement a WB-esque approval system over here? ”
Oh I wish, I wish. I think everybody is just afraid it would be corrupt like everything else.
In terms of the WB-esque approval for breeding thing, I think a large problem with that (at least in some breeds) is that there are a variety of types within the breed. Take the Morgan, for example. You have saddleseat horses, dressage horses, western horses, hunters, sport horses, government-style, driving horses, etc. Can you imagine all of the different approval boards that would be needed, not to mention the cost involved? While I think it’s a great idea if you have a breed that has one general type, it becomes far more complicated when you have several. In an ideal world, it would be possible to have approval boards for each type, but with the economy the way it is, I honestly can’t see breed organizations or owners shelling out the cash for this, even if they thought it was a good idea.
Re: Warmblood-esque approval system. It’s far too late for that. That system comes from the northern European mindset. It’s firm and judgmental. Warmblood form evolved from critically needed function, as war horses. They became sport horses as an outcome of soldiers competing against each other. They’re big boned and big chested to handle galloping in battlefield mud all day. Dressage movements are evasion and attack maneuvers on a perfectly controlled mount. A Lipizzaner capriole is meant to kick the s##t out of an enemy.
Aesthetically, Europeans are surrounded by art by the Masters. Many get an education in the classics, which includes lessons in form and proportion. They value beauty, and couple it with function. Animal breeding conforms to community standards, which is a powerful force. Look at equestrian statues. Those horses are magnificent.
If you’re North American, you grow up with fugly being acceptable and even desirable. Ugly furniture, ugly architecture, ugly ‘art’, fugly animals that can’t do a damn thing. People are strongly influenced by their community and upbringing. If you took someone out of Podunk who’d only ever worn polyester in bright colors, then plopped them down in Manhattan or Montreal, they’d soon start creating a stylish wardrobe.
Just as German dogs were created to be perfect protection machines. They then get softened to fit the North American pet mentality. People here want the fierce look of a GSD, Rottie or Dobe but with an almost Lab-like personality. Then they get all whacked out when the dog acts as it’s hardwired to.
I’m not saying the NA mindset is all bad. Just that it’s never going to result in universal standards of quality. I LIKE that we’ll keep an imperfect pet. As long as we don’t breed it for sentimental reasons. I DIDN’T like that my German dressage coach spoke about and treated my “cold blood” as if he were trash, and as if her warmbloods were the only creatures on earth that merited attention.
However, if you want to breed to European standards, you have to have the firm mindset that will allow you to destroy less than perfect animals. They do it up close and personal, some of them euthanizing imperfect animals soon after birth. North Americans destroy animals by the millions—but farm it out so they don’t have to look.
Thanks, that’s something I had wondered about too, and most of what you say makes a lot of sense to me.
I would like to put in a word for Rotties, since the ones I’ve known are just the sweetest, most mellow, big bears ever. If there was any hardwired killer instinct there, it seems to have been bred out of these particular ones.
My Rott is a huge puppy. just wants to be petted and loved on all the time. My favorite pit was the same way, just wanted to be a (large) lap dog. The only pits I have ever met that I would not run up to and pet were both kept chained, and I don’t have any documentation, (not that I have personally researched anyway) but I think that when you chain a dog, it really does something to their minds, and they just go bonkers. It is a very sad and unhappy life for a dog, and I think it makes them mental.
Yes, that’s what I said. North Americans value fierce dogs that have been bred to have Lab-like personalities. Mind you, a German dog that is extremely affectionate to the master is desirable. But ONLY to the master. Otherwise, it is meant to be aloof and even hard. It’s one of the things I value about those dogs. I don’t particularly want my dog to be slobbering over everyone, or easy prey for theft if I leave her outside.
Wow. That is a GREAT analysis.
Pros and cons, huh?
I definitely agree with you that many breeders and trainers get so fixated on the current hot topic area (front end, pretty head, muscles) that they forget about truly good overall conformation. Unfortunately, the same thing happens with color. However just when I feel very dispirited about there being good trainers and breeders out there I run into some truely good ones. The breeder who spent 6 years looking for a cremello AQHA mare with amazing conformation, who is the dam to a friends awesome palomino half arab filly. A trainer who will do halter training as well as performance but does not beat on the horses, and guess what her animals win. And an owner who feels color is nothing without good conformation, and neither is muscle or a pretty head. I have found that even within a breed organization if you look for breeders and trainers who are more performance minded you will find animals who are more conformationally correct than the typical “halter” horse. To me it seems as though the “halter” horses bring out the worst in any new trend as these animals are generally bred for the current trend and not true longevity and use.
On a good note. I attended the region 10 arab show in Minnesota this past weekend, another very large arab show, and saw very little of the aggressive handling. It was still there to some extent and it will be hard to ever completely eliminate this kind of thing, but than most of the big strictly halter barns went to the EE instead so maybe it is only a shift of the usual problem.
I do not have the guts to do this at an AQHA show, nor do I have the guts to name names. Around here, you might lose a horse if you rock the boat too much.
I do respect the people on that forum for stating baldly that they do NOT like the whipping and the bagging. What frustrates me, however, is the fact that ANY show official would have to resort to threatening a trainer with being removed in order to get her request respected. I’m sorry, but if a ring steward or official tells you not to use three bags, then that is the end of the conversation. An argument IS grounds for removing the trainer. Don’t threaten. Just do it.
On Youtube I recently watched a mare being presented at… Dubai? Do they have a big show there? The EXACT same thing was going on. That mare came into the ring, and then spent the whole time lunging frantically at the end of her leadrope to get away from her handler. Three leaps forward, hit the end of the rope, spin and leap and lunge, brace against the handler, then off again to do the same thing. How is this Nobility? How is this Self Carriage? Bravery? It was like watching a newly handled weanling who was scared and unable to understand how to escape the pressure and pain. I felt like the poor mare needed cookies and a butt rope. AND THEY TRAIN THIS??????
Years ago I was at a local open show, when some trainers showed up with some Arabians. They were local (I can’t remember their names, but they were from around Auburn, Indiana). The man came into the ring for a halter class with a grey mare. She literally floated. He ran quickly and quietly to give her room to move, and My God, she could move! Float, suspension, self carriage! He lined her up, clicked to her, raised his lead hand… and she set up with a look about her that said, “Yes, I am more alive than you could ever DREAM, folks!” She was amazing. She is what I hold in my mind as the ultimate Arabian halter horse.
In some ways, shows just stink. People get together, insulate themselves, and never realize how warped their concept of a ‘good horse’ is until it becomes so caricatured that it is obscene.
I watched the Scottsdale show online the last two years. To me it was blatantly obvious which halter horses were alert and paying attention and which were terrified. I would love to see judges refuse to place the scared ones.
Totally and completely off topic, only posting it here because we talked about it a few months back:
http://www.kypost.com/dpp/news/region_north_cincinnati/monroe/king-of-kings-statue-destroyed-by-fire1276594072148
I will refrain from making blasphemous jokes…
On topic:
All I can say is keep up the pressure people. This crap has been going on for over 30 years in the Arab business and all attempts to stop it by reasonable means have failed. If anything, it may have gotten worse in some ways. No matter what people say, the so-called “elites” of the Arab world continue to do this AND alienate just about anybody from the outside world who happens to see it. Sad, absurd, impossible to justify, cruel….and the number one reason that many of us have stopped showing class A shows.
I firmly believe the bad seeds can be outed and driven out. You have to believe a system can be changed, otherwise what’s the point? Why not just throw our hands in the air about everything and say, oh well, screw campaign reform, they’re all crooked anyway, why even try?
Pics and video are a GREAT step in the right direction. When they get bit in the wallet by their actions, they’ll notice.
I heard about that. I laughed so hard. I’m not religious at all but if there is a god, that incendent proves that god has a sense of humor. lol.
Huge congratulations on a super Event to WRA Summers Kiss and her fabulous owner, Mary Weeks. All horses should be lucky enough to be owned by conscientious owners like Mary, who brought this mare back from death. Go Team Summer!
Good for them! That’s a noble thing to do.
My trainer is one of those that publically speaks out about abusive techniques, drug use, improper hoof care, tail blocking, you name it and he has hurt himself at certain venues that are run by people he has spoken out about. I do know he has said very good things about Bob Loomis and Al Dunning and has had less than glowing remarks about Jim Babcock and Clint Haverty. I do realize that someone can have a bad experience and that doesn’t mean their opinion is the only one. It is subjective. I will listen to my trainer and keep his experience fresh in my mind. Most other trainers I have spoken with have negative remarks about Jim Babcock and the others don’t say anything. Jim has great horses though, and that is why he is still in business.
I visited a barn last week and to see how the horses feet were trimmed with three inches of heel, made me do a double take. One of the horses already had ringbone and had the surgery to fuse the bone on one of his rear feet and this is a competitive reining horse. I will say though that all the horses I observed were very well cared for and willing to work for the trainer. If I ever observe otherwise, I will voice my opinion and refuse to do business with them again.
My trainer will not allow his horses to be trimmed at an angle that is unnatural for them, or be forced to hold their head/necks in a way that is unnatural for them. Al Dunning did a column in H&R mag speaking out against unnatural head/neck carriage. I say go Al!
WOW…great forum on the event. I’ll be more than happy to go to the big Thanksgiving QH show in Raleigh and take pictures (as long as someone pays my bail). I went 2 yrs ago and the ‘bumping’ and hard spurring in the warm-up pen was rampant. The ‘champion’ weanling had a 1″ overbite, but when one of the three judges commented on it, she was ignored. That one show made me realize that my kids need only be shown at open shows and playdays. I’d love to get points on a few of them, but the politics and abuse keeps me away…sigh
We have a regional TW show coming up end of this month. A friend and I have blue windbreakers with USDA on the back. We’re thinking about going and just walk around to see how many people leave.
Well fortunately in these days of cell phone video, it’s pretty easy to get away with sneaky videotaping!
Hurrah for the good guys in the Arab team!
I loved Arabs as a kid, and I always remember being horrified by the American Arab horse magazines I got my hands on – all those horses half shaved, covered in black grease and straddling with their noses in the air. It obviously caught on in the UK too, but now they’re introducing “traditional” showing classes and some societies are banning the eye makeup/shaving:
http://www.arabhorsesociety.com/index.php?action=view&id=201&module=newsmodule&src=%40random46293fd8464e6
Being an Arab owner I just have to say YAY!! Because that’s exactly what I would have done… marched right up there and told them what asshats they were being.
OT:
I am looking for a ride for a sweet mare that is headed to her new forever home – from Eastern Oregon to SE Idaho… if anyone is headed that way and can help out email me @ sweetpea4414@gmail.com
THIS is exactly why I do not go to Arabian shows anymore even to watch. I started with Arabians in 1960. Over the years it has gotten SO bad that frankly anyone who contributes their money to this industry needs a checkup from the neckup. I have run the gamut from loud LOUD comments to formal protests to the Stewards (what a freaking joke THAT always turned out to be) to getting groups of my students together to lead a march onto the show committee members (including outraged parents of outraged riding students telling exactly what abuse they saw). I am here to tell you that after forty years of loudly LOUDLY and often WITH MONEY protesting this unbelievable bullshit it does NOT DO ANY GOOD because THEIR money will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS trump your measly little protest money. I and others who have protested abuse at shows have been on the receiving end of retaliation and I am willing to name names.
I even had a young adult riding student deliberately run down AND INJURED by someone riding a motorized trail bike INSIDE THE SHOW BARNS at a show in Washington in 1996 because my student had turned someone who was “their buddy” into the show steward for abusing a halter horse. This student because of the injuries sustained was unable to show in her Regionals championship where based on her show record to date she had a very, very good chance of winning Regional Champion or Reserve but she was not even able to compete after having spent the afternoon in the ER. I and my students as another example received death-threat visits when we turned in a stock horse trainer who was so abusive to his horse in the warmup area (and obviously witnessed by far far more people than our little group, and those people did NOTHING) that his mount was running fresh blood from his mouth and had bloodied sides from spurring. I will never these days admit to anyone (except maybe here, and you don’t know my identity for sure, maybe Fugs does) that I ever had ANYTHING to do with Arabians EVER because you know what – the rest of the equestrian world equates Arabian horse people with the WORST of the Tennessee Walker abusers and are very quick to point out that next to OTTBs the Arabian horses are THE largest population of those hoarded and neglected as well as abused.
Frankly although I love the Arabian horse and still have some (including my stallion who is a winning son of one of the biggest name stallions of all time, he is in his thirties now) I will never breed, register, compete, sell or even attend any Arabian shows, ever. The Arabian industry because it permits AND ENCOURAGES such abuse will never see a single penny of my money – and I am NOT shy about saying to anyone exactly why this is.
This is the kind of shit that scares me. I know this is not imaginary. Having the guts to speak out can be actually physically dangerous. My Tennessee friend was telling me that people in the TWH industry routinely kill each other – sometimes just to remove the competition. Fucking insane.
NWHA. Think NWHA.
There is more than one Walking Horse industry. Stick with people who are at least partially sane.
Then again, there is more than one Quarter horse show, isn’t there? Wasn’t there a foundation one a while back? Maybe that is actually the solution.
Who is to prevent someone with some money, power, and brains to start up their own breed circuit? If it were well run and friendly, the ‘Big Time’ show circuits might just die by attrition. Shrugs~
Ah, but the FOUNDATION shows even if I liked them, which I don’t (they’d say my horse was too low headed and OMG he’s clipped, LOL) wouldn’t ALLOW my horse.
He’s got the eeeevil Impressive in him *rolls eyes*
I would love to see a separate non-abusive QH breed show circuit, but I’ve got my hands full at present – we’re working on a TB breed show circuit.
Well, as you have often said, if the horse is N/N, who cares if he’s got Impressive in his pedigree? However, the Foundation Appy people also will NOT register an N/N horse regardless. On the other hand – I think THEIR ban is more valid, simply because they are trying to eventually reach a registry of horses with at least 7 generations of APPALOOSA ONLY in their pedigrees – something unlikely to happen any time soon using all the QH (Impressive or anyone else) crosses out there. Nothing wrong with doing the cross. QH, Arabian and TB are all legitimate App crosses for ApHC registration, since it’s a “recovered” breed that nearly became extinct. However, registering as “Appaloosa” horses that are 15/16th QH and have no Appy color or characteristics (let alone conformation – which should NOT be QH conformation no matter what ApHC now promotes) is just crazy. I am so tired of receiving the App Journal (which I receive because I have to join ApHC to be eligible for USDF All Breeds), and looking at page afte rpage of solid QHs (Quarterloosas?) masquerading as Appaloosas.
But then, this mentality is what encourages the throw away category of horses that result from breeding in color breeds where the horse doesn’t have the desired color pattern. APHA actually has recently started to be more inclusive of the solid Paint bred horses and I think that is smart. I personally wouldn’t stand a solid stallion that is color breed registered but the associations make no distinction. To me, part of the solution to the unwanted horse issue is for the breed associations to be as inclusive as they can without changing the integrity of the breed but hey, it may be too late for that.
What does ‘clipped’ mean? Does it have anything to do with show turnout of the horse?
I’m not sure, but I think they are talking about clipping the hairs from the face around the eyes – not the whiskers or eye-lashes. It seems that some people do this (maybe a lot?) and paint around the eyes to make them appear larger? I live in the south; it’s been 90′s+ all week. Almost all horses down here shed out to almost bald around the eyes and half-way down the nose, so I haven’t even heard of shaving around the eyes before. That is all I could come up with.
Wildcat explained it correctly. Clipping involves using your ‘clippers’ or shavers to remove the hair from a horse’s points. Specifically, most western stock horses are clipped, or have their hair cut short, around their muzzle and nose, around and inside their ears, around their eyes (but not their lashes!), under their cheeks/jaw and throatlatch, and then all four legs have the hair trimmed below the knee down to the hoof.
A basic clip just takes clippers and shortens that hair. Some people, however, will go so far as to use a razor to get that ‘baby bottom’ smooth look so there is no hair, especially on the nose and around the eyes. Or my favorite– the kid who told me that her trainer PLUCKED the hair from the horse’s nose and around its eyes, so the hair wouldn’t grow back so quickly. Yea….. so not going to that trainer.
In Arabians, they also do more bodyclipping, from what I’ve seen, and they prefer dark noses and eyes. As noted, it makes the horse look ‘done up’ for showing.
So an Arabian naturally presented:
http://www.equine-world.co.uk/about_horses/horse_images/arabian_horse_1.jpg
An Arabian clipped for halter class:
http://www.rivervalleyarabians.com/sires/MARAJJ.jpg
Big eyes are so desirable in Arabians that I’m told some handlers actually literally put eye makeup on them…not that I have a problem with that per se, it’s not actually going to *hurt* the horse, but it seems vaguely silly to me.
I remember they used to put belladonna in their eyes to make them pop, something like that. Do they still do that?
I don’t know what belladonna is. We use baby oil or vaseline to shine up the face, particularly around the muzzle and eyes. Any sort of color is illegal, even if it matches the horse. Clear is the only thing allowed.
Belladonna is an opiate– I don’t think it is as easy to come by as it used to be. Years ago, WOMEN used to use it to make their eyes look bigger. It either constricts or expands the pupil, I don’t remember which… so it’s not much fun to use, since you look beautiful, but you can’t freakin’ see, lol. I read about it in a book years ago. I didn’t realize they ever used it on horses, though. I did know about doing surgery to cut their eyelids and make their eyes look bigger. It’s a nasty world out there, folks.
Yeah, I remember people got busted at the Arab shows for using it. Probably in the 80s? I was obsessed with Arabs in my teens and read my AHW cover to cover. Then I rode some and realized I vastly preferred TB’s. To each their own.
I like the face and body clipping. I see nothing wrong with that. Plucking hairs is gross. But the clipping is just excentuating (sp?) the good parts of a horse. Kind of like when I wear a shirt that shows off my curves. I think the Arabs look just as pretty both ways. But I love all horses.
The foundation show I went to had all the same bitches and assholes who show AQHA and are just “too good” for the rest of us who are there for fun. Made me sick, haven’t been back. Frankly, showing is expensive and if it isn’t fun I’m not going.
That is why we have not shown since the 2005 US Nationals. The out of control horses, the attitude of stewards and spectators because I was NOT spurring, yanking and jamming in the warm up arena, not to mention we DO NOT USE A TRAINER…. but yes, I was qualified and then some. I was so Pissed I went and had a sign made for our stall area, We were decorated like your very nice back patio, wood fence and all and the sign read ” Proud to be a Backyard Breeder”. the working cow people thought I was a hoot and wanted to try my Naitve costumes. We were NOT in a high priority barn… ( duhh) But made fast friends, because of our “Non-Arab” attitude. Do have a young friend who wants to ride (she is six/seven) but it will be at local shows. We have not bred mares in five years and the horses and tack are just sitting around, but they get fed (the horses) and the tack is safe. Dressage and hunter pretty much stay the same and Costumes can also be used years later. That is if I stay sound enough to ride. Two surgeries and one serious accident down….. Then too our blood lines are NOT popular here. Real working lines that can work. Farrier is in love with one mare, wants to work cows and I keep telling him to just take her! Just use her!
Could not get that link to the EE to work, but congrats to the folks who turned in the creeps. My kinda folks. We need more like them. I do work with the AYN Trail course designer and work the courses during the classes. But flat out refuse to work for anyone else at that show. Some of the things you see even at the AYN is scarey to say the least. At least trail is a pointed class and we watch it like a hawk. But strange things go on even in those warm up arenas……
Have had a terrible time leaving comments. This is the first time I have been able to actually sign on in months. Between getting the password to take and actually getting the comment to appear…. I am not the fastest typest, but this system makes me look like an expert. We are dial up, but there are’t any trains going by right now. Just a thought for your info if needed.
Okay, so I’ve secretly been coveting an Anglo-Arab ever since I saw one kick ass at a dressage show a couple years ago. MOVED like a WB, and drop-dead gorgeous to boot. *Drool* I also wouldn’t mind a more substantial full Ay-rab (as in, bigger than 14 hands)
Just don’t tell anyone I said that. LOL. It’s good to know that a lot of AHA people don’t condone the crap they do to the halter Arabians.
Go to Arabian Sport Horse Nationals if you want to see some FINE Arab and Arab cross animals. So beautiful and so talented!
Also, I suspect you would love my gray boy – 15.2 purebred and seems to have a natural mind for dressage as well as being a totally nice horse to work around. There are others like him out there – ya just gotta know where to look or get lucky like I did.
I believe it was Hilda Gurney I saw who got a pure arab or sport variation of the breed to an FEI level. I was really happy to see that, becuase it wasn’t your typical $50,000 3 year old german prospect, which is pretty much guaranteed to get to grand prix.
HERE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9sKBHmuaS0
Video of Quick Silver Bey at a clinic – listen to the German clinician, who right away points out that in Germany, horses like this – and even breeds such as the German Riding Pony, which seems to be a great little sport horse – regularly beat the warmbloods in Dressage.
I absolutely LOOOOVE this horse. LOVE LOVE LOVE him.
OK, check out the extension on this PONY:
http://www.yancey-farms.com/black_delight.html
I love this video. This is all that is good and right with Dressage. Notice that there is no tail ringing or mouth gaping and that the rider is not behind the motion and see-sawing. Lovely horse, lovely rider. This video is the Dressage that I enjoy.
The mare my farrier likes is 15.1 or 15.2 and weighs about 1150+ she is a big girl. Was working first level when I last rode and she could go on lease or sale with solid buy back. At least she would get to do something. She has won in sporthorse in hand and under saddle as well as hunter AOTR and Native Costume. Very easy keeper! Can you spell fat!!! DRSReflect@AOL.com with subject: Janeyen
I’ve read articles in the “Arabian Horse World” magazine since the late 60′s written about whip abuse in the show ring. Now, decades later, we are STILL complaining about it. Looks like the squeeky wheel needs to squeek louder. I left the Arab show ring years ago, fed up with what I was seeing. Too bad the Arabian can’t be shown in all halter classes like they do in the Arabian Sport Horse halter classes, where the horses are shown calmly and naturally and not stood up in the “hard” stance, but more naturally. What a shame the things man has been allowed to do to the lovely Arabian.
I hope the EE gets and ear full this time, as it sounds as if things have been allowed to really got out of hand with the abuse happening in full view of the general public. Bring your video cameras to the shows, post your videos on uTube and lets shine some light on a dark topic that has been covered up for way too long, just so the BNTs continue to support the shows.
Ponykins, it does not do any good. Shout, scream, throw yourself on the show office floor kicking and screaming, drag in witnesses, plunk down your money, buttonhole judges/stewards/show committees, it does no good. It has been going on increasingly for decades and will continue to get worse. You wonder why the stands at shows are basically empty and you wonder why Arabiofolks keep trying to sell each other horses and constantly whine about bringing in “newbies” it is because people do NOT want to see this sort of thing. They just don’t.
Sport horse competitions for Arabianhorsess may be a step up. But don’t for a minute think that rollkur has not hit the Arabian sport horse world. In fact, Arabiofolks most likely invented it.
BTW anyone else remember that after Nine-Eleven one of the Arabianhorse associations advised that no one posting in forums or indeed anywhere online and especially in “private e-mails” (oxymoron, with emphasis on the MORON part) should use the first part of the A-word without firmly attached the word “horse” because “homeland security was watching for any words that imight implicate terr—-sts. Just sayin’. Seems excessive to me. But, then, I have nothing to hide.
Not all “Arabiofolk” are like this. Look up Rod Jones for example. I do not show in the big shows, and I agree that there are a ton of things that need changed in that world… but I DO NOT agree that things cannot be fixed. The dinosaurs have to die out sometime and as long as the ignorant “Arabs is freaks” crowd don’t scare off the would be new owners, and as long as people feel outraged about the abuses they have witnessed…things will change. The world (in case you hadn’t noticed) is a little different now than it was in the 60′s, 70′s, 80′s and hell even the 90′s. People have access to more information and to blogs like this one. Maybe in the early days it was easy to shut someone up with a threat or random act of violence, but in my experience the bigger the number of people saying “WTF was that?” the greater chance we have of being heard (and unless you can prove there is an Arab horse owner mafia, I doubt they can shut all of us up). So, in my humble opinion, we can bitch, moan and gnash our collective teeth about how it will never ever change…or we can start changing things.
Also, I don’t know if the ignorant Rollkur statement was in fact, ignorance..or if you were trying for some sort of shock nonsense, but last I heard it was originally developed by german dressage rider Nicole Uphoff who started using it for ‘correctional’ reasons. And as far as I can see, she has no Arabs.
“a rose by any other name” : fact is, this training method has been used by Arabidiots since the late sixties. It just wasn’t called a fancy ass name.
Breed show abuses have not changed, they are getting exponentially worse, harsher and more frequent. Now you all just keep on with your butterflies and rainbows, Sheacat, if’n it makes y’all happy, whatever floats your boat. The more people like you who keep right on believing that all that resounding noise from the show barn aisles ain’t whips a crackin’ the more the BNTs will keep right on getting away with abuse.
So we should go along with you and do…what exactly? Nothing? Your right, that will teach em. I don’t see it as “rainbows and butterflies”. I never said abuses don’t happen, and in fact, I challenge you to point out where I did. My point is, stop bitching and stand up with the rest of us who want to change it. If you see a trainer being an asshole and abusing his horse, take a damn picture. Use a cell phone, a camera, hell stand there and videotape the SOB and see how happy he is about it. If the show steward does nothing, post it here, show it to your local news, send it to the humane society. Write articles, educate people…teach other people who maybe don’t know what they are doing the correct way to work with the horse. Inform people of the good trainers out there, and there are some great non abusive Arab handlers out there. You can roll your eyes and make come backs all you want about how naive I am being, but I see no reason to give up yet. At least, I see no reason to go down without a good fight first. Hell, if people can get together to help save some badly abused cows in a dairy farm in Ohio, imagine what we could do to the bad apples of the show industry. But, people need to know whats happening first… and that means getting people involved. Even those who know little or nothing about horses, other than they love animals and don’t like seeing the abuse. The sad thing is, I never hear about these abuses outside the horse world. And I seriously believe that its something people would be outraged by if we could get it better known.
Also, most the trainers who support Rollkur (and sadly, they still exist) call it ‘deep’ or ’round’ position. The history I was able to find indicates Francois Baucher explained that technique in the 18th century in France. Which predates the 60′s by a wee bit.
Alwin Schockemöhle a German show jumping rider used it in the 1976 Olympics, winning a gold in Montreal.
More recently it became popular with Nicole Uphoff and her horse Rembrandt. Today Anky van Grunsven is the most successful, but hardly the only, rider using the method. You can see it used in preparing some show jumping horses, too.
This is merely ONE of the several sources I found. http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/how.php
I am not denying its use in Arabs, just saying do your research before you make blanket statements.
Interesting comment about the stands. At the mixed-discipline show I was at this weekend, the stands basically emptied during the night when the gaited horses showed, and there were very few horses in the classes. I can remember a time when this show was packed at night. What’s up here? Can it really be that people don’t want to see this stuff?
Sigh. I just remembered that the Egyptian Event was where I saw the infamous David Boggs whip a horse back in the barns at night IN FRONT OF ITS OWNERS! And not just one crack, but repeatedly lash the poor thing. As I’ve said before, we were new to the business and I really didn’t do what I should have and turned the mulletted bastard in. I think much of my rescue work since then is to atone for that!
WAAAYYYY OT…
BUT I NEED HELP..
I need an AQHA look up for a horse, I know he had a show record, but I think it was dressage as a youngster then 4-h after that.. I would like to know more about his sire.
I found the dam on All breed pedigree but can’t locate the sire, either by google or on all breed
The geldings name is Bolos Zanza Dillon (any show records for Dillon??)
His sire is Impressive Bolo ( I need info on HIM)
his dam is zanquilita celebrity
any info would be wonderful
THX
Carol
contact me at wnnahrse35@hotmail.com
Speaking of, did anyone notice the news story on the $250,000, 6 story Jesus statue that was struck by lightning and burned to the ground in Ohio last night? It belonged to and was financed by the leader of the church it was at who is a huge horse trader/breeder named Lawrence Bishop (lbranch.com). Such irony!!
The Lord can’t help you if you insist on parking a 6 story tall metal lightning rod covered with flammable material next to your church. The miracle is that it lasted 5 years. Really, you would think whoever approved the design would have thought about this – they put lightning protection on 6 story buildings.
Correction: It was $500,000 to make.
It’s like 40 minutes from my house.
One of the trainers at my barn knew the guy who funded it and he is an absolute NUT JOB.
Well, in the article, they call the fire “a real tragedy”. “A real tragedy” to me is something like the earthquake in Haiti. I didn’t read the whole thing, so in all fairness perhaps it was a tragedy, perhaps people were trapped in the fire. Perhaps I am just cynical for thinking that the real tragedy is spending 500 grand on that creepy thing when the church could have used that money to help so many underprivileged parishioners. Of course, I doubt a church like this even has underprivileged parishioners.
UGH… apparently the Bishop family has some…. issues:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/01/us/01brother.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1
and something I’ve seen referenced a LOT, the cocaine-smuggled-in-horses allegation:
http://baconcom.blogspot.com/2010/06/touchdown-jesus-and-other-stories.html
I’ve driven by his farm for YEARS – it’s across the interstate from the megachurch complex – and there are about a gazillion horses there. He’s been mentioned on here for his overbreeding: he got some award from the AQHA for breeding over 30 horses a year, every year.
This is precisely why I am not interested in showing and NEVER will be. What does any of this prove about the horse’s ability? I’m sure if I chased my horses around with whips and plastic bags, they, too, could jump around like Arabs and act in an unacceptable manner (right after they kill me for being an ass). We teach our horses NOT to act like this!
Thanks to everyone who is speaking out about the abuse and drug use at shows. We’ll be sticking to performance based activities with our equines. ïŠ
I still have hope for the QH industry. Remember big time trainer Cleve Wells got outed last year in January for horse abuse. He was turned in by owners. AQHA has a long way to go but this really helped restore my confidence that change is coming. I still don’t show the breed shows here in Ky; they are still way too political. I hope that the halter class reform brings about real reform. As for now, I show open and next year I hope to show in IBHA shows or whenever our now 2 year old is ready. We don’t start saddle training until the fall of the two year old year. My husband and I do all of our own training and then I work with another trainer who I haul our horse to for lessons to fine tune. We had a terrible experience with a local trainer, Gene Ray Stewart, if anyone wants to know. He abused one of our two year old so badly I had to turn her out for six months to calm down and then I restarted her. It made all the difference in the world. With him, she would come after you rearing up and now she is the sweetest horse ever. For the life of me, I’ll never understand why people would want to scare a horse that badly.
Oh boy where to start……Cleve Wells, personally saw him badly abuse horses at a clinic, he really thinks it’s all part of ‘making a champion’. Have a friend who’s horse was put down at Clinton Anderson’s because it was not ‘safe’ but of course it was there for 3 months, minus the month it was laid up due to cinch sores (really). Also saw Clinton take a whip to the little horse he choose (at Road to the Horse), lacing it across the front legs because it finally had enough of him and turned on him ears pinned and pissed. Can’t remember if that was before or after he laid it down and stood on it….
Speaking of Road To The Horse, it should be interesting this year…..Cox, Anderson and Parelli….ummm, some ego’s bumping ya think ??
Cox has said these venues are not good for the horses (and he doesn’t do all the crazy stuff) so I’m surprised to see him competing.
I’ve said to several people, Chris Cox is gonna wipe up the floor with those dudes unless something’s skewed/unfair.
IIRC, isn’t Chris Cox anti-slaughter? I may have him mixed up with Craig Cameron. At any rate, I think there has only been one big name NH person who has said anything about being anti-slaughter. The rest say nothing, and/or are pro-slaughter. It’s more important to pimp their shit, sell yards of rope stuff, and be folksy, than take a real stand for the benefit of horses.
I am not sure but I do know that Chris Cox can ACTUALLY RIDE, not just bullshit. So he gets my vote.
Oh, good, I’m so glad Clinton Anderson came up today. I arrived home yesterday to find his catalog in my mailbox. Only way this could have happened is that his outfit bought “Practical Horseman’s” mailing list, because I certainly didn’t request it! At any rate, I went through it just to see how bad it actually was. One of the first things I read was the page extolling CA’s virtues and accomplishments. Yes, I want MY horse trained by someone who in three hours will be STANDING ON HIS BACK AND CRACKING A WHIP. Yee-haw!
You too can have a rope halter and (yachting-line) lead rope for the low, low price of only $75/the set. Or how ’bout the complete DVD set of Step One of Clinton’s Majikal Training METHOD for $400, IF you “join his Club?” Er, no thanks. Loads and loads of other DVDS, too, on many different topics. Perhaps there is some useful knowledge in them, but the thought of wading through the marketing hype and hours of TV watching is daunting, never mind the cost. Oh – yes, there’s his version of the carrot stick, too, for around 50 bucks but it does come in a rainbow of colors, instead of just orange – totally worth it!
There were four bits on the bit page; all snaffles, but of course one is twisted wire and one a Tom Thumb and none have a thick mouthpiece. Yep, just what you want your rank beginner “trainer” slapping in Dobbin’s mouth. At least his Western/Aussie combo saddle was not overpriced at $1700, although I failed to see any significant difference to it from a regular Western saddle.
The whole catalog is chockfull of beautifully groomed (and blindingly shiny-coated – I was surprised that Show Sheen is not one of his many Official Partners whose products were plugged at every opportunity) horses being ridden by an equally immaculate Clinton. HIs closet must contain nothing but rows and rows of button-down LS logo shirts in tropical colors….
All I can say is, go Chris Cox! I’ll never approve of 3-hour instant “horse training” but I hope he kicks their butts!
OH MY GOSH!!!! ME TOO!!! I am subbed to dressage today… How they thought I would be interested in NH crap I am astounded to know. Didn’t you love the driving whip they were selling for like $60 and calling it a Handy Stick?
So this is a bit off topic, but I have a question for those who show (or know about) arabian halter. I have a beautiful black Egyptian Arabian gelding who was bred for halter, but we never ended up showing, did endurance instead. Well back in December he got a terrible injury in his lower front leg (did it in his stall), partially tore both tendons and suspensory ligament. He’s pretty sound, and should be 100% in a couple months for in-hand and very light riding.
I’d like to show him in schooling level (or one level above) halter shows. The only thing is, his leg is now all thickened with scar tissue, it’s pretty obvious. If he’s sound, would I still be disqualified or not place??
If you show halter, the horse is often expected to have clean legs. Your horse probably will not, so I would expect that he may not win classes, but as long as he is sound and has good conformation everywhere else, he should be used in a fair environment. A good judge will know the difference in an animal with an injury and an animal with a conformation flaw.
Just remember to have fun first!
I would suspect that he will get lower scores for legs, but may make up for it in other areas if he is otherwise well put together
OT: But on the same forum…
http://forums.arabianbreeders.net/topic/38557-need-help-locating-a-horse/
Keep your eye out for a missing BLM Mustang Filly. The original owner who took her through the Extreme Mustang Makeover to the final round is trying to locate her and make sure she is ok. The lady (an Arabian breeder in TX) that bought her turned out not to be who she said she was and now the filly has disappeared. Becasue the origianl owner followed up she found out that things had gone south but the new owner won’t cooperate or give any clues as to what happened. There are pictures on that thread of Mae, please keep an eye out for her.
sooo nice to see!!
)
this has somewhat restored my faith in the industry since the whole Magnum Pysche/David Boggs –whatever the hell that was incident (plus the alleged surgery to Psyche’s throatlatch as a yearling for cribbing? …. a)why is your yearling cribbing so bad he needs surgery..or b) was it secretly cosmetic
I can’t really think of anybody who knows horses who likes David… actually, many of us just make fun of him…. and his mullet.
David sure is an odd character to meet in person. Even though you know that he is a sleaze and you despise him, and you want to take a Purell shower after you shake his hand… he is very charming. It’s probably part of why he has gotten away with so much and why he has so many BIG money women clients. It’s sort of like you just met Hitler and shook his hand but are still very impressed that he remembers all of the grooms’ names at your barn and asked about your favorite horse that he saw you show once. It really throws me off, because one of my biggest character tests is how a famous trainer treats the grooms from other barns. The bad guys are usually too important to be nice to the little people.
Yes, he is creepy like that… I remember the Scottsdale (last year, maybe?) where he was playing the crowd with Magnum… letting kids sit on his back…
Yea, he might be a psychopath… like clinically….. Charming, but not quite right…
Oh, David….
So this Egyptian Event, how would it rank next to the Scottsdale Arabian Show? Bigger, smaller?
I used to go to the one in Scottsdale every year when I lived in AZ… Maybe I’ll have to go check out this other one next year. Though I’m not a big arabian person, they’re fun to watch…
Smaller. It’s all Egyptian horses, which I admit I have a HUGE fondness for. I hate to hear about people being mean to them.
WAY smaller and not neatly the prestige. The Egyptian Event is pretty much a joke to most of the people who show at the Regional and National level.
Contrary to what some people think, or see at various events, the Arab halter industry is changing. These changes are starting in Europe, too. It’s great to see. I’ve been at the Paris show in ’08 and while the horses are still hazed, it’s not at all what it was! It was very nice to see excited horses who did not back down from their handlers, nor did they behave aggressively either. A friend of mine (Gerard Paty, of Pacifica and Crimson Farms) recently was hired at Janow to train and show their horses; this man was known for his playful training techniques that produced horses who had fun, showed well, and had real manners. Many of his halter horse babies have gone onto have riding careers.
I show in multiple disciplines on the west coast, including sport horse halter, dressage, main ring halter, western, and hunter. I haven’t seen many trainers showing terrified horses in years, not even in the yearling futurities. Granted, this is just up to our regional level in Oregon, Washington, and northern California. The national level shows are still a different story, and some of the methods used at that level are simply pointless or straight up abusive. This is losing favor, though.
Change does not happen over night, not in any breed or discipline. Vote with your wallet, speak up, and keep doing what we’re doing. I am thrilled to see an entire group standing up like this!
Ok kids… totally off topic, but I am looking for some advice. It’s dog related… I sincerely hope you don’t mind. I am an animal lover in general, and have so far had to put down several dogs in my lifetime (but thankfully so far none of my horses).
My dog is 15. While that’s “old” for most dogs, it’s not necessarily for Chows.
She has been in very good health, very playful and youthful, until Sept/Oct 09.
At that time she came down with an autoimmune disorder. It included lesions on her skin, and she was very stiff in her back end.
By the time they (the vets) figured out what was going on with her, she’d lost a lot of function in her back legs.
What’s happened since is that the drugs cleared up the autoimmune disorder. The lesions have gone. She’s in good health (mentally AND physically), *except* for the loss of function in her back end. That seems permanently gone.
This loss of function has steadily increased, to where she doesn’t really have any control at all. Not only does she have “accidents” constantly (I really think a large part of it is she can’t get up to go out to do her “business”), but she also cannot walk hardly at all. This loss of muscle control is steadily getting worse.
Today, this is her life: She sleeps inside at night; if she makes a mess it’s no big deal, it gets cleaned up. She gets her rear end washed every night to keep her clean. We live in the country, so she has lots of fresh air and our other dogs hang with her during the day outside. She still gets in silly moods, barks at airplanes, she is still eating fine, not losing weight, and is overall healthy except that her back legs don’t work.
The “bad” things I’ve noticed: She doesn’t like being “alone” (without her people – outside) and never really has, so she barks often. She doesn’t get around much, so sometimes she ends up in the sun for a while which must be uncomfortable. She is chewing/licking her front legs, and has licked a lot of the fur off (a sign of stress). And the fur is being rubbed off her tail from her laying on it and it being dragged when she moves around.
It’s hard for me to make this decision. She seems overall fairly happy, generally pain free, and in overall good health. But I am thinking of putting her to sleep. I think I need an general consensus. Don’t be mean – there are many thoughts and beliefs on this matter, and everyone has their own opinion (and are welcome to it). I am generally of the opinion that if they’re in pain (and it’s not fixable), they should be put down. I’ve never had to deal with this sort of paralysis before, so am unsure what to do. Kind comments with your opinions are appreciated. I’m not a child, and care very much for my animals.
Hi there,
Because she is so distressed, I would recommend having her put to sleep. Organise it with your vet, give her a campaign of massive love and all the things she enjoys and then say goodbye to her.
It’s hard to just have an answer, but it sounds to me like your dog is having a lowered quality of life. You seem to recognize that taking in a pet means we are responsible for their quality of life; if she’s having accidents, showing signs of stress, and is having mobility issues, it may be time to have a more serious consultation with your vet about options for management, or euthanasia.
These are never easy decisions. All I can offer is this: if she were my dog, I would euthanize her at this point, as she deserves dignity in her death. Having had a German Shepherd who also had hindquarter issues, it’s not fun. I remember having to make that choice for my family, because she was still eating, being silly, and involved with the family. She was also not living life the way she was supposed to live, slowly becoming immobile. I owed her better than that, she had given me many years of loyal companionship and protection.
Really, this has to be up to you. But my parents faced a similar situation with our first household pet, a cat. He had a tumor that was bursting through his shoulder, but we didn’t catch it until it was either too big or more had spread- I was never really clear on that point. For some reason, the vet managed to convince them that Mr. Beasley had more time left, and we brought him home. He had a few months of being a sick cat before he went, and I think if my parents had it to do over again they would have put him down during that first visit.
My cat isn’t your dog, but I think the lesson here is that, with pets, life is about quality, not quantity.
This may be a little more than you want to do in this situation, but they do make “wheelchairs” for dogs:
http://www.eddieswheels.com/ (have heard glowing reviews about this product)
http://handicappedpets.com/www/index.php/dog-wheelchair-main.html
http://www.k9-carts.com/
These are not exactly cheap, but they can restore mobility and independance to a dog who is otherwise healthy.
From the description in your post, it sounds like your dog’s quality of life is becoming more and more compromised. It’s really difficult to give an opinion on something like this without being able to see the dog and evaluate the “sparkle in her eye”, but I would be inclined to plan some great days with her favorite treats and visits from her best friends, and then let her go. Thanks for caring so much for your faithful friend!
Thanks for the responses everyone. I think it’s a bit “late in the game” to be getting wheels for her. I did think about that initially, but really, she’s 15. It wouldn’t be a great investment, unfortunately. If she was younger, I would probably do it. Anyway, I think I’ll let her hang with us for another week or two. Lots of love and doggy cookies (plus probably some previously “un-allowed” people food). Then let her go. It’s so hard to look at her every day, knowing…
Anyway, thanks again.
One of the reasons they are finally doing something about Rollkur (in dressage) is because people get their video cameras out, video it and post it on the web. Now they could be doing a lot more and I believe that the rules could be more clearly defined for the stewards, but it’s a start. So people could do the same at western shows. The problem with only one or two people speaking up is that it is easier for the people in power to ignore them. There needs to be groups of objectors and lots of video proof. If the trainer threatens you, video them threatening you. Stick up for your principles and go out there and help fix the industry. Don’t wimp out.
I have never been to a Western or Arab show in here in Australia. In all the video of Arab shows that I have seen, the horses seem quite calm and I cannot recall ever seeing a plastic bag. I am familiar with other types of horse shows, and it is my opinion that if you used abusive training methods at these shows, you would get lynched. So if you are an abusive trainer in Australia, you have to do that abuse at home.
In Australia you cannot dock your dog’s tail (except for medical reasons) or crop their ears. American Saddlebreds are shown with natural hooves and tails. I guess it’s a different attitude here. But there’s no reason why it cannot happen in the USA. You just need enough people to want it and who are willing to work on getting it.
OT Here’s the poor skinny mare somebody was trying to get $400 for on CL a few days ago, then $250, now she’s free. She’s cute, hope she doesn’t wind up on the meat wagon. I’m way far away, otherwise I’d bite.
http://yakima.craigslist.org/grd/1793950862.html
Do old, red mares come in Arabian? You could collect one from every breed…
That way, when Arabian owners make you happy, you can say, ‘And I’m one of them!’ but you don’t have to deal with the crazy show folks!
Oh they do indeed…and I actually do not have an old, red mare at present. But given that I have an old, black mare who is probably unadoptable but not all that old, that may not happen for a while. You can only have so many old mares at one time and of course I still have the 30 year old gray mare.
That is so awesome that she has made it that long. I love the fact that better medicine, wormers, and feeds are allowing us more time to spend with them. My arab is only 7, so I am looking forward to the next 30+ years.
Well, I don’t have an AQH. But…I know someone who does. A dun, one they go on and on about his awesomeness and that he won his first show.
I bet THAT person could do it.
Who would that person be, I wonder?
I already used all my credit for the month on the web site, and by the way, I don’t own any duns.
Does that even have any context at all? Oh wait..
I like making them, too…
Haha, I love useless comments
I show Arabs – I have at the A level since I was eleven-ish. I only started looking for the abuse since I started reading this blog. I love the breed to death, I’ll have Arabs till the day I die, and the people on the circuit are in general nicer to their horses than what I’ve read about on other circuits.
A whip is required in halter classes, and as the commenters above me have discussed, it’s easy to see when it’s used badly. It’s also possible to use it correctly; when I show halter with my horse, who had the crap haltered out of him when he was younger, all I do is swish the whip near his knees to rock him back on his hindquarters, then wiggle his lead left and right to get his head up and neck stretched. With most halter horses, or any Arab that hasn’t been thoroughly desensitized to everything, one can get a bug-eyed look with a plastic bag or a ribbon. If your horse moves off your body, you can take a step toward him like you’re asking him to back up to rock him back. Put a little crinkly candy wrapper in your glove and make noise with that. It’s not hard to get a show.
The performance classes are not, in my opinion and experience, plagued with the abuse of AQHA. I’ll admit, that’s the only circuit I’ve ever gone to watch. Western horses (at least the purebreds; the half-arabs are a free-for-all) are encouraged to lift their back and travel correctly, usually the bits are smaller, and when the hand-gallop is called there’s a change. Hunter pleasure horses need a huge trot and a super-fancy canter to get to the top. If you ever get the chance to watch an english pleasure class at the top level, watch the action of their hocks at trot; it’s just as important as the motion up front.
Lots of these horses truly enjoy what they’re doing, and what you see in the ring might not be indicative of what happens at home. I put a kimberwicke on my horse at shows for hunter pleasure (we work in a snaffle at home) because he doesn’t want to stop. My trainer has a stunning mare who travels nearly level – with no shoes. She goes at home in a snaffle and a running martingale on a separate (often loose) rein. The curb bit at shows is just for that – show. Another gelding can go from halter to sidesaddle to hunter pleasure to western pleasure and be a different horse for every class, then come home and give lessons to kids just learning to walk off the lead line.
tl;dr – Arabs have their problems, like every breed.
While I have no arabians, my horses know what a whip is. They however, don’t associate it with anything scary. If I’m running late for work in the am and grain my mare and foal in the pasture, of course they want some grain too. I just take a riding crop with me and poke them and they know that means don’t even try it. I could rub them with it (ooooh! scratches!), or just chase flys away from them with it and they could care less. There’s a time and place, and there is a right way to train with a whip.
I frequent the Arabian shows in Minnesota. My friend has an Arab stallion that she is working on getting a championship in Halter before she moves him onto performance. Region 10 was this weekend, and in the class of 5 stallions, her horse was the only one that was not harassed when the judges weren’t looking. He was calm (kind of a detriment in a halter class, he placed last even though he should have been at least 3rd), and happy. I only saw his trainer shank him once, and even then it was a quick correction, to pay attention, and then pressure was released imiedently. I wish more trainers were like hers.
Oh goodness…..I checked out Frank Holloman on facebook and left him a message…I thought pretty reasonable….suggested he be prepared to answer some questions about a photo making the rounds…..didn’t take him long to respond…..
he’s pretty upset demanding to know who posted his photos and where, references his attorney…..guess he is wondering just what photos are out there, hmmmmm.
He does say in his bio that his life sucks…..
Really, HIS life sucks? When was the last time HE got beaten in the legs with a whip?
Wow, looks like he cleaned out his wall, I can’t see any comments on it…? xD
Can I ask what this picture looks like to you guys?
It’s from the aforementioned forum, where it was said that this is the reaction of a horse after being whipped on the right fore leg by its handler, Frank Holloman.
I emailed Paradise Arabians about it, asking whether they cared to explain. This is what Gary Kenworthy had to say (he said there was supposed to be a picture attached but I didn’t get that, maybe he will mail it in the next one. Am still conversing on the topic)
“Alexandra. Thank you for forwarding this photo. If you hadn’t done so we would have probably never seen it as we don’t frequent the blogs. I can’t take all the negativity…regardless of the subject matter.
Anyway, please take a look at the attached photo. I have drawn arrows to illustrate that what was happening was NOT as the photographer suggests! First of all, look at the posture of the handler. Does he, to any normal thinking person, look like someone who is “whipping†a horse? Second, look at the circle I have drawn. That is the plastic attached to the lash. Look at its location, then notice the soft “drape†in the whip itself, illustrated by the first arrow above the circle. Does that look like a whip that is being used to abuse a horse? The whip is one that has a relatively short stiffener and you can actually see where the stiffener ends at the second arrow up from the circle. If this were an aggressive act that whip would have been stretch out violently! The next two arrows are pointing to the lead. Notice the drape in the lead. There’s no aggression here. The horse is not attempting to flee or fight. In fact, I think this photo is a testament to how our horses respond to Frank Holloman. They are neither angry nor afraid. It makes me wonder why anyone who would post such a photo and suggest the handler was abusing one of our horses. Perhaps they have an ulterior motive or maybe they are just a very negative person who might be disgruntled with how the show went for their horses. It’s also interesting to note that the owner of the horse is standing right behind Frank. The owner loves his horses and would not allow them to be abused, period!
Please examine the photo, pause to reflect on what you actually see and then feel free to post whatever comments you feel might be appropriate.
By the way, I lightened the photo you sent just a bit to better illustrate my points. Feel free to compare it to your version just so you’ll know that I changed nothing. And, we will continue to use Frank Holloman precisely because of the very positive relationship he has built with our horses and wonderful comments from people who have witnessed his methods and success first hand.
Thank you.
Gary Kenworthy
Paradise Arabians, Ltd.
http://www.paradisearabians.com”
Hmmm, I am not convinced…..
What is your honest opinion on this picture?