Things that make me go hmmm…
May 30 2010
I may be a skeptic but…
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I simply do not believe that someone can maintain 300 horses at a rescue, adopt out 30 a month to homes that have been checked out properly, and be online saying they are ready, willing and able to take in more all the time. In fact, begging for mustangs!Â
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Oh, and this is taking place in an economically depressed area, nowhere near a major city. Joe at TB Friends has high turnover, but hello, he’s right there near the Bay area with tons of wealthy people and hunter/jumper/dressage barns. So that is a good location to turn over Thoroughbreds to good homes. (Note that Joe mostly takes TB’s, too - not anything and everything, regardless of breed or soundness.) This place is in the middle of, as we referred to it when I was growing up in the Midwest, Bumfuck, Egypt.Â
Oh, and no one ever sees any advertising for their available rescue horses (I looked, didn’t find anything, either), and their web site is extremely vague and does not provide the slightest bit of information about individual horses. No before/after pictures and no success stories. So how would they even be finding these 30 adopters a month? The web site says they have 110 horses but their Facebook page says they have 300. THREE HUNDRED. You do the math. Hoof trims alone, let’s say they’re getting a rural community type price of $20 each, are costing $3000 a month. Deworming, let’s say they’re buying generic, close to $400 a month just for that. I haven’t even started on hay. Or vet. Taking in those numbers, can you imagine the vet bills?
So how is this working or is this yet another front for a kill buyer that is fooling a lot of people? I mean, there’s no reason a facility couldn’t appear perfectly lovely and legit and still have horses leave regularly, allegedly to adopters, but really going right up the freeway to our old friends at Florence Packing. I mean, they’d get busted eventually but it might take a while if they were slick. We know this kind of stuff is going on with some other well-known rescues – they’re playing musical rescues with the horses eventually winding up in the kill pen again after the public attention is off that particular horse and everyone involved has lined their pockets with donor money. (If I don’t endorse someone, pay attention. It isn’t because I don’t like their hair.)Â
Let’s discuss the probability that someone really has 300 horses at their rescue and they are getting proper care, and that person is adopting out 30 head a month to approved homes. I don’t even care about naming names right now. I just want to see what the overall feeling is about the odds that this is a bunch of bull. My b.s. detector is banging on the ceiling, personally. If it is not as blatant as fronting for a kill buyer, then I think at the very least they are handing horses out like candy and do not have a freaking clue what kind of home they are going to or where those horses are 60 days later.
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But hey, maybe this dude won the lottery and everything is fine. I don’t know. But when it walks like a skunk and smells like a skunk, I tend to think it’s not just a tuxedo cat with unusual markings.Â
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108 comments to “Things that make me go hmmm…”
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I could see a very large, very well known rescue adopting out 30 horses a month (maybe). Doesn’t TB Friends adopt out 15/20 a month? And not everyone advertises online – maybe the owners are stuck in the 80s, and spread the word through extensive show connections. Oh, wait, they’re online asking for free horses. And you haven’t heard of them through your own show connections. There goes that theory.
The kicker is that they’re specifically looking for mustangs, which would imply that they’re taking in large numbers of unhandled horses. So you can add some very significant training costs to all the other maintenance. I’m sure it has nothing to do with mustangs carrying more weight than the average horse. Nope, nothing at all.
Yeah, I think it’s fishy. Like I noted – Joe adopts out a lot but he’s ideally located to supply horses to hunter/jumper and dressage barns. And he has a lot of satisfied customers who blog about their rescue horses and how great they are doing.
This is too weird and out of the blue for me. No one has ever heard of you and now you have 300? Huh?
I agree. It seems highly unlikely that they are adopting out that many a month. It’s hard enough in this economy to take care of 1 or 2 horses let alone 150-300! Even with lottery winnings you’re talking alot of time,resources and amount of people to take care of the horses AND find them homes. I know people who are having a hard time finding a home for 1 horse, and word of mouth with no advertising is NOT going to cut it.
Oh yeah, they’re being adopted and invited to dinner, by the JAPANESE.
Kinda OT. With the location, location, location thing, do the big legit rescues ever do horse exchanges, like dog rescues sometimes do, to move horses around to where they would be most adoptable, or at least get seen by a new group of adopters?
I wish that happened more often. Of course it is much harder to move horses around – you can’t just throw them into your car! But it’s absolutely true that I see horses not adopting out in, say, Washington that would find a home quickly if you could get them to southern California.
Horse market is still doing fairly well in so-cal! Too bad BOARD prices are through the roof *if* you can even find a place with openings. The easiest way to get a stall in so-cal is to buy the horse in it.
…and based off of what I’ve heard, that’s a STALL. In which your horse will be spending all its off time. I hear turnout in SoCal is very tight and at a premium., Wouldn’t want to live there, really :/
There’s a reason I live here and my horses do not. I have had horses here before, and I just can’t see subjecting them to this life. San Diego’s different, Norco/Riverside is sometimes different if you can stand the commute, but driving distance to work in L.A. every day? Nope. Not one facility I would make a horse of mine live at. There’s just no TURNOUT. If you are REALLY lucky you get 15 or 30 minutes in an arena, and you have to pay extra for that. I like my horses out all day, if not 24/7.
There are a few (VERY few) places where you can get pasture board, but often you have to sacrifice other things like having riding facilities beyond a very basic arena, trainers, etc. It’s nice if you know what you’re doing or just want to have a hobby horse, *or* if you want to trailer out for lessons & training…but it’s also in a fire zone, it being so-cal and all. definitely not the most horse-friendly place. When I had a horse i would turn him out daily, but it wasn’t ever in a field.
I went to a horse expo a few months ago, and there was a “rescue” there that was advertising a “stallion breeding up for auction” to help defray costs of the rescues. All I could think of was “Why would you want to bring yet ANOTHER probably unwanted” horse into the world. The stud in question was just a buckskin, nothing more (but probably registered quarter horse.) Yeah, there are a lot of questions out there about these rescues…
Can’t speak to your fishy-sounding rescue, but I can assert that Joe/TBFriends is 150% legit. The man is a saint. I’m a few hours from him, and I personally know at least a dozen people that have adopted from him and several that are part of his support network. He has a very devoted group of supporters that buy him hay and financially support his efforts in many ways, both on and off the record.
I’m sure most people know about TBFriends, but since you mentioned him, I just wanted to reinforce it. I’d hate to have anyone doubt Joe’s integrity!
Yes. Joe and Shiloh are two of the biggest I’m aware of that are “under control” and both have half or less the horses that the subject of this blog says he has.
Joe and Shiloh also have a TON of public traffic. I’ve found that where you have the public breezing through your facility daily, you don’t have train wrecks. It’s those situations that are out in the middle of nowhere, like Jason Meduna’s ranch, that can go so, so bad without anyone noticing ’til there are 80 dead horses in a pile.
I blogged about a terrible situation involving 49 seized horses, donkeys and mules in Wayne Co., W.Va today. Do you know more about this situation?? I just discovered it today during a google search for mules in the news and was terribly aghasted by the photos! Here’s my introductory post, lacking detail but containing some news story links:
http://www.braysofourlives.com/2010/05/if-walking-skeletons-make-you-cry.html
Your mulish friend,
Fenway
hmmm i am from WV and last year i got a horse from a family that got her from a “breeding farm” in wayne co. she looked like this when i got her. could it be the same place, i kinda hope so would like to know a prob breed on her
Terrible picture! Thank goodness she made it out. A commentator on my blog said there have been comments from neighbors about ten years of starvation and death at this place. I wonder why they weren’t banging down the door at the sheriff’s office ten years ago!
If that is spotted skin on her bum I would guess Appaloosa bred because from the picture I can’t see any actual pigmented hair…? Other than that she could be paint bred I suppose, a more up to date shot with conformation might help to determine whether she has a stock type build or not…? Lol, or did you mean you know what breed she is and would like to know her lines? It is a bit hard to tell as that last sentence did not make much sense to me xD
aficat, I think I read once in NorCal’s blog that they sent a couple thoroughbreds to another rescue because that rescue was able to adopt out thoroughbreds more easily than Norcal. Seems like a good concept to me.
Yeah, fishy is a good word for this. Unless perhaps it was funded by some independently wealthy millionaire or something (lol) this is highly unlikely. I’d be willing to bet that if someone took a trip out there, they’d see a lot of skinny horses with bad teeth and feet at a minimum, and possibly much worse. The lack of specific information is worrisome. No one can ask “hey whatever happened to _____________?” if they don’t give specific information on their animals.
I’m with you, Fugs — my BS detector is howling like a storm siren– and I live in tornado alley.
Am I missing something here? Is there a link to the “uber rescue” being discussed? My computer has gone wacky. My switch-screen name is now in Spanish, I can’t just go into “standby mode” because some program or other is “requesting connection to the Internet,” so AOL “comes to life” all by itself, and for some reason Internet Explorer has become the default ISP.
All of my settings have returned to default mode, too.
So the fact I’m not able to link to the faux rescue you’re discussing may just be because you aren’t naming it OR it may be that some setting has decided I am not worthy of knowing which one it is.
I hate technology.
I didn’t want to flat out name this one because I haven’t heard anything bad about them, either. Nor have I heard anything good. They seem to have somewhat materialized out of the thin air and gotten VERY big VERY fast … which makes me VERY nervous. ‘
I kept looking at it wondering if I was being too suspicious. But I just don’t see how it adds up and anyone is able to care for this many. You know, it’s the same reason I rolled my eyes at Madeleine Pickens when she was going to save all those mustangs and buy land for them to live on. (By the way, to my knowledge that never actually happened so it looks like common sense kicked in about the magnitude of that particular task, or T. Boone put his foot down. One of the two!) (Remember that? And I was Satan for a while for daring to ask questions like who was going to handle 16,000 or whatever mustangs, where in the world you’d find qualified individuals to even provide basic care without getting their heads kicked in, what happens when one has an injury, how were they all going to get gelded, etc.)
Re: Madeline Pickens, one of my friends is on her mailing list and the last I remember hearing was that the government was holding up the land purchase…so who knows what’s going on at this point, but it sounded like she was still trying.
Off topic but those computer problems sound suspiciously like a trojan or malware. Run a check in safe mode with whatever you have, then download some malware detectors and do the same.
I was eavesdropping on a girl at my school the other day. She was talking to some faculty about how her family owns a working ranch with 200 head of horses. She was also talking about how they’re all wonderfully “broke” (she never said trained; maybe broke and trained mean the same thing to her, idk). She would also talk about how all of them are used for trail riding lol. But I wanted to call shenanigans. This happened a few days ago and I don’t remember much of what was said during the conversation, but I pretty much stopped believing her when she said 200 horses. OH! I remember. She said they were all stock horses, too
and they breed their own mares to their STALLIONS.
I think it is entirely possible and legitimate that this girl could live on a working ranch, and have that many horses that are at least minimally cared for and reasonably healthy. Sure they probably don’t have their tails bagged/manes braided with MTG or Vetrolin Shine on them and could use a good grooming but ranchers can’t have the same level of meticulous care that most of us do. Ranchers use the term “broke” to mean the horse can work cattle, ride trails, etc. That term is used generically and the specifics of its meaning relating to training could be determined by asking some simple questions about what the horse can do. I have heard a lot of people use “broke” and when the horse gets more experience they say the horse is “broker” (meaning more broke). Some of the bigger working ranches have horse sales where you can get “working ranch” or “ranch broke” horses that are highly sought after. I am sure the market in this area has dipped some like the rest of the horse market, I am not sure about the prices/numbers of horses sold/not sold, etc but say you own a small ranch and need horses able to step right in and work. This is where you might go to buy. I can’t speak to the legitimacy of this particular person’s claims, just saying it sounds reasonable to me.
well, that could be true. Some of the bigger ranches do have using horses, and supply their own herd by breeding stallions to mares. As silly as it sounds, when you start talking ranches with breeding and working horses, 200 isn’t a shockingly big number. I worked for a breeder for several years in the Midwest, and during breeding season it wasn’t unusual to be taking care of 60 or 70 horses, counting visiting ‘ladies’.
That said, she sounds like she read about King Ranch or Weiscamps, her patter is so similar.
I wouldn’t be so quick to judge someone you simply overheard talking to someone else and didn’t ask any further questions of.
I’m no expert, but I have done a lot of poking around into ranch horses because I desperately want another QH and the ranchers seem to be the only people breeding QH’s with the feet, conformation and temperament to do a serious job anymore. In my poking around, I’ve picked up a few things that makes me think that girl might not have been as full of it as she would first sound. There are plenty of working ranches still in existence with a large herd of their own stockhorses to work it. (I believe this is called a “remuda” but I’m not 100% positive.) Most keep a herd stallion or two because when you have a couple thousand acres, making your own future working stock is not really all that hard and is cheaper than buying it from someone else, plus it gives you another commodity to buy/sell/trade among your fellow ranchers. Certainly all the working horses would be very “broke”, and in this context, that word would denote “trained”. A good number of the broodmares would also have been broke to ride as youngsters and used in some capacity before becoming broodmares, barring some circumstance like injury. Same with stallion(s). He would have to prove his worth to keep his parts.
200 horses does not sound like an unreasonable number to me for a working ranch, especially if it were a cattle or dude ranch. If she said they were all used for trail riding, that says “dude ranch” to me and then I would expect all 200 to be “wonderfully broke”. Liability insurance is expensive and you don’t want your city slicker tourists getting bucked off of some bronc in your trail string and suing you out of existence.
Now, my take on this mystery rescue? It sets my alarm bells off, too. They say “rescue”, I hear “pipeline to the slaughterhouse”.
There are plenty of ranches with 200+ horses. Many of these ranches supply horses to all the dude ranches seasonally, since she claimed they were all trail broke that would be my guess. Also, must large ranches do tend to use their own stallion battery, just read the AQHA Journal or Cutting Horse Chatter or any one of the “stock-type” horse publications.
Well, that rescue dude is in my crosshairs, and has been for several months. You can scam and you can run, but dude, you can’t hide!
A one person operation is going to be stretched giving basic, good care to 6 horses, let alone 300. At the very least they would need a 40 volunteer operation. After all, horses do need to be groomed more than once a week, fed daily, water buckets clean and filled, hoof trims, dental floats, and that is not counting daily body checks of horses to make certain that none have sustained injury. Of course, as we all know, that is a basic concept that many of these faux rescues let slip by. After all, they aren’t on their way to slaughter, now, are they?
Add to that embellishment a claim of adopting 30 horses out a month? Not happening in this economy. People can’t GIVE horses away (except to kill buyers) and it is a certainty that no follow up is being provided–IF they were actually doing what they claim.
I can’t say that I have been impressed with too many rescues in the Midwest, Nebraska especially.
I learned firsthand that the work with ONE extra horse increases geometrically. I have had one horse for 12 years and two years ago fostered a horse for 18 months. The expense doubled (shoes, vet, feed) but the WORK. It seemed like cleaning, grooming, turnout, EVERYTHING took FOUR TIMES as long. And the foster was a PRINCE. Wonderful ground manners, VERY good about everything.
I can’t imagine having horses that are being retrained (from the track, say) for second careers.
One of the first things I look for when I am donating to a rescue is, how many horses are they caring for that will never make it to second homes. I can understand the “sanctuary” aspect of caring for animals, but if the basic purpose
is to rescue and rehome and one’s resources are stretched to care for ALL that come through the gate, perhaps it is time to make the difficult decision to euthanize and concentrate the limited funding to those that have a chance. Getting a volunteer to ride or train the prospects “now and then” isn’t very productive, and from what I’ve seen, not many rescues — even the large and/or famous ones — have “staff” for that.
And as I learned with having one FOSTER horse, if you’re doing all the work yourself, it’s difficult to keep the stalls clean and “manage the farm,” let alone do much more.
Please be sure to READ the actual blog post, everyone! There’s already someone who somehow got the impression Fugs was saying JOE (TBFriends) was the questionable rescue! READ READ READ, please!
*headdesk*
It makes me CRAZY when people do not READ.
Joe and TB Friends are great. Lots of satisfied customers, lots of happy endings there. I was merely referencing him as an example of a larger rescue that has high numbers and adopts out a lot, but it makes sense that he does due to location, breed, and the fact that he has cultivated many excellent relationships with show trainers over the years.
Yeah sure….and pigs fly. Anyone that sends their horse there …is just a friggin idiot. I suppose they are also getting others to donate to them..ala CBER.
I have 4 horses. Each year I buy 10 ton of hay from a local farmer at a cost of about $110 per ton. Every six weeks, all four get their feet trimmed – $160. They get wormed every two months – $16 – $60 depending on what I buy. West Nile virus alone cost me $20 each and I gave the shots myself. The rest of the vaccinations cost me about $100 twice per year. I have been lucky and my only recent vet expenses have been gelding two colts – you heard it, I gelded my colts. Both very nice, registered colts – one AQHA, one APHA. BTW, they are wonderful geldings. Basic maintenance on 4 horses costs me over $3000 per year. And I only added up the most basic necessitites. There is a lot of stuff they get that they could probably do fine without – it is a quality of life issue… Multiply that by 75 and you have basic supplies for 300 horses running about $225,000 per year. Now, I admit you might get a deal on some stuff, but this is just for the most basic needs…
Even if you could AFFORD it, financially, how in the heck do you find the people to take care of that many horses? It is not like a big breeding farm where you have broodies and babies you are just tossing hay to. As a resuce, most of these horses are likely to have some sort of special needs. Especially if the ultimate goal is to get them adopted out to good homes. Even if each person took care of 10 horses per day, that is 30 people every day…
If you are just feedin up a bunch of horses to send them down the road to a processing plant, well then sure, 1 or 2 people can take care of the daily chores, easy…
Tranquility Farm in Tehachapi, CA, is … can’t remember now how many acres, but quite a few. Its overhead is $250,000 a year (according to its Web site, tranquilityfarmtbs.org). It rescues and rehomes (and also retires) Thoroughbreds.
Perhaps some of you read about the 40+ brood mares that were sold by one breeder to a man who told him he wanted to start his own breeding operation. The mares, several in foal, were shipped to a feedlot outside Phoenix and left to stand in the 114-degree heat. The manager of TF heard about it and headed out to rescue those mares. Delicate negotiations, much like those Joe at TB Friends talks about, handling the feedlot owner(s) and the … x-rated word here … who had it in his head to “clean up” with the sale of these ladies to the killers. I guess he had purchased the mares for “a song.”
Anyway, the mares were hauled from AZ to TF and sorted out by the manager and staff, thanks to lots of volunteers who had trailers and trucks “at the ready.”
TF has a stellar board of directors, an that fantastic manager who, I believe, lives on site, as well as many tireless worker bees. Horses offered for adoption come with “a history” — vet records, x-rays, assessment of personality, trainability, possible career paths, etc. Some arrive with injuries and their rehab is sponsored by owners, breeders, trainers — people who were involved with the horse from the beginning or who were fans of the horse when it raced.
One of TF’s major yearly fundraisers is a stallion auction, with top racing sires’ fees donated to the Farm. They also sell a beautiful calendar every year. Their Web site has a donations page (with PayPal), and a list of ways you can contribute to the work done there — if you are a vet or shoer, you own a feed store, etc. I have never been to the farm, but a friend who has racehorses and an OTTB in training for dressage, has said she’d like to visit too, so one of these days we’ll make an appointment to visit. Tehachapi isn’t exactly “next door,” but it would make a fun road trip ;o)
This is another one of the GOOD places, from all I’ve heard.
I agree. I have heard nothing but good things about Tranquility Farm.
The thing for me– without knowing anything else– is that some businesses “scale up” well and some don’t. And rescues seem particularly resistant to scaling up in a way that maintains the point of a rescue: a safe place for animals to recover and live out their lives.
I don’t know the size of the largest TB breeding farms (for instance), but of course those have financial inputs from various board and stud and training fees. 300 rescues? And (if they’re looking for mustangs) a substantial portion of them needing serious handling and training? Do they have grants to do this? Is the operation funded by a multi-millionaire? Because that’s the ONLY way I see those horses being cared for, even at a minimal level (trims every two months, wormer twice a years, good pasture for most of the year, and no major veterinary issues.)
this is off topic but you will LOVE this guys sense of humor! his name is Bill Woods and is a dressage rider. here is his homepage: http://www.woodsdressage.com/Home_Page.php and if you wander around his website there are many hilarious things.
his most hilarious part on his website is “products” under the ” store crazy” tab at http://www.woodsdressage.com/store_crazy.html
of course none of these are for sale and my favorite one is the “celery stick” on the last page making fun of parelli’s carrot stick. Its epic.
OMG. OK, if anyone is in Ocala, they should go take lessons from these guys just because I bet their barn is a HOOT!
LOVED IT!
Bill Woods has been around for a long time and is obviously doing well. He narrated a lot of the early videos from USDF (and I DO mean “videos” ;o) I bet some of them were available in the Beta format. ;oD
My computer can’t handle the videos, but the still pictures show NO tension, NO Rollkur, relaxed horses…yeah. I would love a lesson from these guys. AND they’re JUDGES. And based off of their comments about engagement and impulsion, they’re probably judging RIGHT.
Awesome find.
I know. I really looked through their web site, and the overall impression I got is that I’d like to crown them King and Queen of the Dressage World and everybody else should have to shut up and listen to them, LOL!
I’ve ridden for Bill and he definitely writes the most interesting comments on your tests. He referred to one of my exuberant flying changes as a “shocking development.” He also referred to a friends free walk as “Dieseling.” Still don’t know what that means, but it’s funny!
Ha ha, kind of sounds like idling a car…not really going anywhere even though the engine is running?
Having scribed numerous Intro A and B tests (with kids riding school horses), I know that the free walk is more like a “meander” and takes FOREVER. Shows with lots of Intro A and B tests can run LATE.
“Dieseling” means, to me, that the horse is “honkin’ across the diagonal,” moving out very well indeed.
Just my “take” on it all ;o)
OMG, Bookmarked, and now I have to blow my nose because I’m still crying from laughing so hard. What a fantastic site!
Btw, did you notice that the wife of the pair evidently beat the developers in her county after fighting for several years? She functioned as her own lawyer to stop a subdivision/housing development from pushing in. I swear, I don’t even ride dressage and I’m ready to send my son down to them to learn.
The Dressage for Husbands video on their lessons page… His new book… I might have to go to that Arab show to watch this guy judge ROFL.
LMAO, my favorite is the Board Stiff Bill. “He’s weatherproof, he’s cardboard…” *Still laughing*
Thanks for sharing.
My ante is on the table for bullshit, and my hypothesis is that they are sending the horses to illegal rodeos for horse tripping and later slaughter for human consumption on the premises. They could be pushing for Mustangs because of the wild sport they could provide and few if any people would check up on them.
Yeah my BSometer is through the roof too because if they arent on being rescued/sold to Ken L. Ration then they are being rotated to different rescues and arent being adopted at all but just shuffled so that it looks like new stock is coming in all the time and the old stock is moving out. Im not sure that rescues have to show anything on tax form as to how long any particular animal has been with them but Im sure it looks better on paper to have a 10% turnover than a 1% one. Also if you slip a few to the meat man and they just disappear then who cares when you have 300 hungry mouths to feed, feet to trim, shots to give, and horses to work.
Sure seems kinda like cover it with large numbers…no one will look for snicker pony we sold to the meat man 3 months from now when they have all the rest of these horses to take care of!
Even if they had 150 legit horses, there isn’t any way a decent rescue facility could sufficiently check out 30 potential adopter’s applications in a months time. For each horse adopted out there are vet, farrier and boarding references to be checked. Not including an on site visit if the barn is close enough to the rescue. Plus the umpteen million other things that need to be checked and rechecked before you let a horse go off down the road with a stranger.
If it seems too good to be true, it always is.
Off topic: family member found his horse dead this morning. She cough her hoof in the halter sometime last night.
Well that is just plain stupid and I hope he learns from his mistake. Why would you even post a comment like that. It is completely pointless, isn’t it.
How rude… Sharing horse experiences is never pointless. There is always a novice who “hasn’t heard this one before”. If my post affects even one person into changing their mind about leaving halters on unattended horses, it could be lifesaving. Some people, unfortunately, get argumentative if you tell them not to do something, but reading about a horse dieing because of a halter might be better persuasion.
My 10 year old decided on the topic for his 4H O-Rama talk after he heard this story – “Pasture Safety”.
And our 4H group leader shared her “halter horror” story. When she was 15 she wanted a horse. Her parents told her she could get one if she could pay for it. So she worked 3 jobs and saved her money. She bought a horse and had it boarded. Less than a month later the horse had to be put down. The owners of the barn left the halter on the horse one evening…. There was a tractor parked in the barn… By the time the horse was found, she had broken her back, struggling to free herself.
Terrible story – but again, a good warning to others. I know a LOT of folks who think it’s ok to leave the tractor, a car, etc. parked where horses are loose.
what??? how the hell did that happen? what was she doing with a halter on during the night? and surely if you do something as stupid as leave a halter on at night u make sure that it’s a breakable one.
How awful. That’s why you never leave a halter on a horse that doesn’t break. Nylon or rope halters will not break if they get caught on something. Only use leather halters if you must leave the halter on the horse.
How many times have I blogged on this (and on the simple concept that barbed wire IS NOT horse fencing? – next blog is on that, by the way)?
Nylon halters are for grooming and leading and longeing. They are not, not, not for turnout. And they are DEFINITELY not for mares to wear around their babies. You might as well tie a bear trap to their nose. Mare puts head down, baby puts foot through mom’s halter, end of baby. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard the same stupid story.
What a fun thought experiment:
Okay, like you said, let’s assume this person is independently wealthy. 300 horses, let’s assume hoof trims every 8 weeks, ditto with worming. Okay, so put ‘em on a schedule, do 150/month, that would make 5 horses to deworm and trim every day. That shouldn’t take too long, should it. Wait, mustangs, not handled. Okay, back to that in a minute.
And yes, you have to feed and then clean up after 300 horses every day, but that can’t take more than, oh, um, wait that IS a lot of poo, okay, assume an army of grooms or several hundred acres. Oh wait, how do you catch mustangs on several hundred acres to trim their feet? I know, they’re really well trained.
Okay, assume really well trained mustangs, okay so you have to train them, maybe just work on each horse once a week, that’s, what, about 40 horses a day, hmmm, maybe we should go back to assuming an army of grooms, independently wealthy, remember. Or an even bigger army of trainers.
Haven’t gotten to grooming or other vet care yet. What else did I miss?
I can understand why you are seeing red flags. Appreciate all you do to help expose this kind of activity.
This is OT, but I thought people might be interested in today’s post on the Horse and Man blog. It’s about older horses and their value, and I thought it was really touching.
My oldies jobs are to just put a smile on my face
A lot of people ask why I don’t get rid of them since I don’t use them for anything. I always tell them because there is such a HIGH market for a 30 plus year old major sway backed gelding and for a late 20′s Appy mare that has crappy feet, moonblindess and the ability to try to founder on air (she was blessed with a hearty appetite, love of food and a VERY slow metabolism lol!!) They were very good riding horses for about 9 years and have earned the right to just kick back. If someone shows up with small kids that want to ride a horse then I’ll halter one up and lead them around on them but that’s it.
I personally think that these sort of people are hoarders and can’t help themselves, it’s a disease. Keep adding horses, keep adding horses, keep breeding horses, and even though they are rescueing, the horses end up in worse conditions than to begin with. Yet they cannot see it. They cannot admit it. To admit it is to face the problem. So obviously these people whom own over 15 horses need to be monitored. Course there will be those whom say “What?! I’m a BREEDER, I have a waiting list for my foals, they sell like hotcakes, my horses are well taken care of, or I’m a RESCUER!” Well then you have nothing to worry about, I’m sure you’d pass inspection just fine. The people whom yell the most are the ones that I guarantee aren’t maintaining basic horse care. But I’m sure I’m just spitting in the wind, this society doesn’t care about responsibilty.
I know you’ve mentioned Wisconsin before– does this “rescue” happen to be in WI? Can you give us any more info?
Aficat–
That does happen, where rescues occasionally see a chance to do a rescue to rescue transfer, etc in an effort to get the horses seen by a wider audience, downsizing, etc. However, as we have seen in many cases, that doesn’t always work out best for the horses.
One notable rescue in Indiana even accepted horses from another rescue for “downsizing purposes” and then shot at least one behind the barn and claimed that another died of a mysterious lightning strike “exactly in the same place where another horse was killed!” (Of course they had promised that this was going to be a lifetime sanctuary horse, and then shipped it out to this other place where it was hit by that magickal lightning bolt, but no explanation was forthcoming as to why the horse had even been shipped out).
There are very few safe places for horses anymore, even in rescue.
Am I missing the link to this “rescue” somewhere in the article? Or, what would I search with on Facebook to see it?
I’m far from being an expert here, but it smells like a skunk to me!
I could MAYBE buy it if they had, say, 50 volunteers, and were advertising like mad.
OT but Ive got a question….
A friend of mine back East is looking to full-lease a horse for a year or so. She found one she liked that is owned by the boarding/lesson/show barn where it lives. They want $575 a month, which includes full use of the horse and facilities and board. But they also require the person who leases to cover all veterinary, farrier and dental work at extra cost.
Now its been almost 30 years since Ive owned a horse, but back when I did the barn I boarded at also leased horses and the person paid a flat monthly rate which covered everything. Im wondering whats the norm in leases nowadays. Its seems pretty unreasonable to me that the horse could be injured on the owners property (thru no fault of the person leasing), or develop colic (they owners provide the feed and care) and yet the person leasing would be responsible for the medical bills. Is this the way leases tend to work now??
I can’t answer your question about leasing, but it sure sounds like a situation where you would need insurance.
The $575 probably is just the board. It doesn’t seem that unusual for a full lease to include paying for the incidental expenses on the horse. What your friend ought to do is look at the contract, and make sure there’s a cap on medical expenses if she doesn’t want to pay the $3K plus in colic surgery, if that should ever happen. And what happens if the horse is injured and is out of commission for a lengthy period of time? She should also iron out those details.
A full lease implies you didn’t buy the horse, but you have assumed all the expenses associated with owning one. And hopefully all the privledges — is she allowed to take the horse to a show, let other people ride it, etc.? Who makes the decisions on shoeing methods, supplements, turn out time, tack? All that stuff needs to be ironed out.
It does sound like the barn is getting a good deal here — if I were your friend, I would negotiate a partial lease so she doesn’t have full responsibility, if they will do that. And for sure have a contract everyone signs.
edit: I wanted to mention I am currently leasing an ex-racer from my barn. Our deal is I pay a monthly fee that is roughly equivalent to the board rate, plus routine care. If there was a huge problem, the owner would be responsible and if he went lame, he would return to her. This guy is great but he’s got badly arthritic knees from the track, so I am not willing to buy him (he’s 10 and still sound, but I am not sure he will be all of his life). I also board my own horses at the barn, so this is an extra horse for me to enjoy, but I don’t have to pay for catastrophic expenses or retire him. He will live forever at his current home, lame or not. It’s a good deal for the owner, who doesn’t have time for him, and for me, who needs a well trained horse to ride. So it can be done.
When they say veterinary, do they mean emergency situations? Or just basic routine stuff (shots, teeth floated, deworming if it’s a barn that requires the vet to deworm all the horses). I would find it very unreasonable that, 3 months into a lease and the horse pulls a suspensory out in the turnout, that they would require her to pay for medical expenses and provide treatments for the next 9 months on an unridable horse. I guess she’d need to request that they specify in the lease agreement exactly what they mean.
When I was in college about 8 yrs ago, I did a half lease on my horse with a lady who wanted to use him for lessons twice a week and then ride once on her own each week. All I charged her was half of his board and farrier costs, and she paid for her own lessons. After a few months, he ended up getting a really bad case of scratches on both front pasterns and couldn’t be ridden for a few months. I did NOT expect her to pay any portion of his vet bills for the scratches, or provide the treatment, or continue to lease him during the time he was unridable. I just felt bad that she’d been having such a great time with him and then wasn’t able to anymore. If that hadn’t happened and the lease had gotten to the point where he needed annual veterinary stuff like teeth floated, she’d said she’d pay for half of that kind of stuff.
Hey, if you find out this IS the norm there, please let people know! I’m sure people have horses they’d like to lease at that kind of a deal!
Me personally, I’d NEVER pay for a lease like that, the owner would have to have at least part of the financial responsibility, but you know there is always someone out there who will pay whatever for whatever…
Leases can work a variety of different ways, but this is not that uncommon for higher-end show horses. It can work out very well for both owner and leaser depending on the horse. The owner doesn’t have to worry about “whatever happened to” a beloved competition partner and the leaser gets access to a horse that they might not otherwise be able to afford the purchase price. I’ve known several people who were fortunate enough to lease Grand Prix dressage horses who weren’t sound enough to continue the rigors of international-level competition and all the travel involved but who were still worth tens of thousands of dollars due to their capabilities and training. You can learn an immense amount just from riding a horse that is that well-trained.
However, if this is a lower-end school horse, she can likely find a much better deal either at another barn or just through buying one of her own. When I’ve leased on-site, I was only responsible for board, not medical bills. Off-site leases I was responsible for everything but didn’t have to pay the owner any monthly fee.
Lease situations can be as different as the people agreeing to them, I think. When I leased my horse out while I was in college, my Dad only charged the lessee half board and half farrier in exchange for full use of the horse. My guy has always been pretty low maintenance so the regular veterinary costs were negligible and we all agreed that the important thing was to keep the horse being used, rather than having to sell him. It was also agreed that any catastrophic veterinary bills were the owner’s (my Dad) responsibility, unless gross negligence by the lessee was the direct cause of the problem. Any way you look at it, we gave them a pretty sweet deal.
A friend of mine on the West Coast is currently leasing a very high-end equitation horse and I understand that there was also a “lease price” in addition to assuming all the usual costs of care. I will probably never have that kind of money unless I marry rich, but my assumption would be that the lease price would at least give some sort of return to the owner of the horse if something happened to the animal during the course of the lease that caused death or permanent lameness.
Gosh, from what I’ve heard about leases these days — and I’ve been in and out of horses for 30+ years — the kinds of leases are as varied as the people participating in them. Feed leases, use leases, etc., with the person leasing taking care of everything while getting to use the horse for … whatever.
You didn’t say, but if the $565 board bill is everything (nothing extra for the use of the horse by the lessee), that doesn’t sound like a lot (given the high cost of board fees in Southern California where I live). Adding shoeing, vet, etc., to it just makes it like the person owns the horse but didn’t pay the purchase price.
Anyway, it seems to me that lease arrangements are “whatever the traffic will bear.”
WOW, thanks everyone for your opinion on horse leases…I guess there really is no “norm” these days…LOL
Talked to my friend and forwarded your opinions and this is basically what she and the horse owner agreed to…and it will all be clearly spelled out in writing. For $575 a month she will have full use of the horse on-site at the owners stable. The fee will include full board and use of the facilities (arena, jump course, etc.) Lessee will be responsible for “routine” medical care during the lease (shots, worming, etc.) as well as farrier costs every 6 to 8 weeks. She will also be financially responsible for any injuries that occur to the horse while she is working with/riding it up to a maximum of $2000. Owner will be responsible for anything above that amount. Owner will be responsible for any illness/injury that occurs when the Lessee is not using the horse. Im assuming that would be if it was injured in the pasture or develped colic or something like that. Since the lease is on-site and the owner will be doing the day to day care and feeding hopefully that wont happen. She is looking into what type of insurance/liability waiver she may need, if any…thankfully her father in law is an attorney and can do that for her.
So basically all my friend has to do is show up and ride. I think thats a pretty good deal!
Is this the same outfit that was mentioned on your blog a few weeks ago (maybe it was mentioned in the comments) that lists their horses by the pound? The same one that had a horse die that got caught under the bottom rail of a fence and was stuck or cast the whole day while the owner was gone? That one really bothered me because they had a long list of adopted horses with no follow-up. On the pages of horses in rehab there were descriptions about how, for example, the people rode the horse to “evaluate” it, and the picture showed the horse so skinny that no one should have been on its back… I think it was in central or northern California. Places that get a charitable status and are really just horse dealers need to have their status pulled and be reported to the IRS. If they are running a business and pretending to be a charity, it is a slap in the face to legitimate rescues and to those of us who do pay our taxes.
Nope, this is the first mention of this deal, though I’ve been watching them for a few months while their numbers have skyrocketed.
They are a 501(c)(3) but a new one so I don’t believe there is a public 990 yet.
To me the kicker is the lack of advertising. How are they placing these 30 horses without trying to place any? And let’s look at that again… that means if each home is checked out, they are checking out one home a day. That’s a bunch of work and driving for a single person, since the horse owner density of this area is low, and would seriously cut into their ability to do anything else.
Either kill buyer or a hoarder, is my guess.
Had to smile over “Bumfuck, Egypt.” We say that here in Memphis too. As a kid I always thought it referred to the Egypt neighborhood in North Memphis, which is as close to nowhere as a location can reasonably be.
Now I hear this person alleges they DO ALL THEIR OWN FARRIER WORK.
On 300? While allegedly also running a business themselves?
This is getting stinkier by the minute. You are not keeping 300 horses trimmed YOURSELF. NONSENSE.
Even basic trims on that many would be like painting the Golden Gate Bridge. By the time you finished the task, it would be time to start again at the beginning. Talk about a treadmill.
As for “Bumfuck,” I like it, though I mostly use a term I heard from a gal from Long Beach: East Jesus. It’s a little more “user friendly” because occasionally people object to the “f” word even if used “innocently.” ;o)
I don’t know but maybe it would be a good idea to recruit a reader in the area to make an appointment to visit and have a look around for everybody’s peace of mind? What do you reckon?
Fugs, is someone checking this rescue out for you? Maybe someone local can pretend to be looking for a horse? You know we don’t like to be kept in suspense too long, LOL!
Myabe just give us a hint? What words would we enter into, say, a google search?
Pretty sure they’ve been mentioned on ABR…an individual notorious for “save them from the truck” and then you never hear about them again, has sent them horses.
impromtu – sorry to hear about the family member’s horse. the only thing good to come out of this is to remind everyone that it is never a good idea to leave a halter on an unattended horse unless it is a break-away halter, fitted correctly.
fugs – thanks for your vigilance. it does make a difference. our beloved horses thank you.
happy memorial day, my fugly friends. remember our veterans. it is because of them that we enjoy this beautiful, beautiful america.
Ok, Here’s the litmus test. What do farms with 300 horses look like? There aren’t that many out there, and from my experience they are usually composed of numerous trainers under one roof. Do you know of a farm with 300 horses? How many acres of turnout? How many employees? Any profit? Think about it!
Yeah, I’m asking because honestly, in all of these years with horses, I’ve never been at a facility where 300 horses were owned by the same owner and were all receiving proper care. Not even 200.
I’ve been at large boarding barns, but that’s different – different owners, not one person footing the bill for all.
As far as the facilities, if you know the address you should be able to do a fly-over in Google earth and check them out.
I thought Google Earth was way, way behind? Every time I look at something, it’s not a current image.
Try the maps on Bing. They have an aerial view option that I have found to be very good, and current. You can rotate views too.
There was a big article today in the Los Angeles Times about the Wild Horse Boot Camp put on by Lifesavers Wild Horse Rescue (Jill Starr). http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-wild-horses-20100531,0,6547790.story
Lifesavers was reported as having 300 horses between their Lancaster facility and Kern County sanctuary, so there’s an example. At least their website looks reasonable! http://www.wildhorserescue.org/
I haven’t been there but I have met Jill Starr and worked with her (on the Three Strikes thing) and she is a good horse handler, so I will definitely say that about her. So many of these people can’t even get a horse loaded.
Cathy,
I tried to comment last night and for some reason it would not go. Here, I will try again.
I saw this ad in the Duluth Minnesota Tribune last Sunday:
ACCEPTING unwanted horses, ponies and donkeys
Call/text (218) 590-3541
Sounds like a killer to me trying to fill his trailer for the slaughter house. Do you have any contacts in the Duluth area that can check this one out?
Thanks, Jack Schreyer
http://www.HorsesDIY.com
Oh heck yeah. That’s a kill buyer for sure!
Those ads are everywhere. Chuck of CBER fame used to run that ad all the time in the free papers in the PNW.
OT: a real estate broker/rancher gives a beginner tutorial about buying and owning horses. Some of it is OK, some of it is pretty hilarious. http://aspenranchrealestate.com/ranch-horses.html
Roger that about ABR.
New topic? How about “Who cares for your animals while you are away?” I became an expert at this while serving nine years in the military. Despite two deployments to the war in Iraq and Afghanistan (and several extensions to those deployments), my animals were well-cared for.
I boarded my two horses during the first deployment and they were already on full board because of the amount of time I spent underway. I paid an additional person to groom them and someone to verify that was being done. I pre-paid the farrier and gave my credit card number to the vet along with extensive signed release forms. I wrote general instructions and specific likes/dislikes for each horse and gave them to all the people caring or verifying the care my two horses received. And I came home to this:
Happy horses! My barn owner put yellow ribbon up on both of my horses’ stalls. A very thoughtful touch.
My second deployment was much more complicated Because I had my own farm so I needed to hire a farm-sitter. I wanted to hire the same person that was already watching them whenever I got underway but she wanted to be the back-up instead of the primary. Sadly, the primary farm-sitter went off the deep end within a month and, God bless my neighbors and friends who were checking up on my animals because they stepped in, kicked her out of my house, and my back-up (who I wanted to hire in the first place) took over. It saved my neck having wonderful neighbors and friends (who I reimbursed for their time later). At the time, I was in the war zone and it would have been very difficult to contact me. However, my animals were safe because I had a plan and I ensured everyone knew the routine and who was fed what. You owe to your animals to care for them regardless of your own obligations. I had several back-up plans, I pre-paid the vet and the farrier. I had release forms signed with the vets (both small and large animal vets) as well as credit card numbers. My vets knew how far I would go and at what point I trusted them to decide my animals fate, if need be. My puppy broke her leg while I was gone and a horse had to be shipped off to a major veterinary facility for colic surgery while I was in military training. My plans worked and my back-up plans kicked in when needed. Now, my husband and I have one farm-sitter that is licensed, insured, and extremely good. She only gets about a week’s work from us per year. It is good to be a civilian again.
On the sunny side, it could be a wealthy person. But wealthy people running something like this usually have a tech running an up to date website.
It could be a kill buyer, it could be a rescue that doesn’t do the necessaries like feet, worming, etc. You didn’t say what part of the country they’re in. It IS possible to keep 300 horses out on (big) “pasture only” cheaply in the Midwest. From mid-April to end of September, anyway. In winter it’s impossible.
I have a problem with that high of an adoption rate, though. They may well be adopting out that many, but then they aren’t checking refs or barns, and not doing follow ups. And no “take back” contract. This is sadly common in rescues. I did some work with a dog rescue that was run that way. Lotsa bragging about high adoption rates, but no follow up. And obviously unsuitable adoptions, too. Huge, high energy dogs with behavioral problems going to families with toddlers. Lying to prospective adopters about animals’ personalities and training levels.
I’d simply contact them and ask about their adoption process.
There is a place in northern ca that drives me bonkers. It is a mustang santuary, that has several hundred horses, that roam on the property. They appear to not geld anything and just let the mustangs continue to breed and breed. Just what we need, more mustangs with no handling! I have to say they appear to be well cared for, and all are fat as pigs, but I just think how they could be feeding horses that already exist, and give retirement to many domestic horses, instead of just putting more horses on the ground.
Have I had them on the blog before?
Sounds like Three Strikes part II in the making.
I am not sure, but here is the link http://www.wildhorsesanctuary.org/index.html. The government should make it a law to geld everything on that property. It looks like they started with 80 and now are at 200. California Gold did a show out there, that is how I was alerted to it.
I was at a real rescue this weekend. I had the privilege of riding 2 of their ponies. The facility is beautiful, with white vinyl fencing, large paddocks with shelters, a fancy-pants barn and indoor arena. Volunteers keep it immaculate, feed 3x / day, groom, ride, train, etc. They have 35 horses, total, I think. Some are retired, some in training, some fairly new rescues. They don’t seem in a hurry to adopt them out until they are sound, trained, and have been their awhile. I know the ones I rode were there over a year and weren’t up for adoption yet. A trainer said it was something like $575/day to run the operation, and everything is done by volunteers and the owners. So 35 horses is a lot to rehab, brush and feed.
Here’s a heartwarming anecdote: one of the ponies I rode had been in a kill pen with her mom, and the other is little Kiger mustang from the Three Strikes seizure. He and his mom came their last year and the vet didn’t think they were going to make it, but they did and the little guy is going to be some kid’s eventing pony one day.
Wow, that sounds awesome. But again – 35 horses. It’s cool how well you can do things when you keep the size under control, isn’t it?
And very good news about the Three Strikes refugee. I always enjoy hearing the happy endings since I met them all!
This is totally a kill buyer front. We had an ad around here for a while that we all knew that’s what it was.
You cannot give 300 horses quality of life care without a HUGE staff. And they trim their own? Yeah right.
I’ll tell you, I keep 15 horses and 12 dogs. I KILL myself on a daily basis to do it all. Half the crew are crippled critters, living out their days. Yet they take just as much care, if not more, than the rideable, usable horses. I keep those ridden, competing in their various events. I take lessons, go to trainers (both dog and horse) and I trim or shoe my own. I clean pens daily. I buy feed thru wormer in 50lbs bags. Let’s not even talk about what I spend in fly control… I have help from a husband daily, and animal babysitting free from Grandma (not that I ever go anywhere). I also cut costs by working for my vet. Funny how when you’re there enough, and you start answering phones when they’re busy, they put you on the payroll and give you a discount.
It costs me at least $6k a month for these animals, but $8k is more realistic. Shots, wormer, insurance, vet bills… even with my discount, I dropped $700 this month alone in vaccinations and 2 horse visits. That’s at COST! Consider gas, tires, wheelbarrows, forks, tack, etc… it’s a lot of money to do right by an animal.
So I’m not buying what these people are doing. No way, no how. I think it’s disgusting if they are truly kill buyers posing as a rescue.
Posting on the fly. Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but dude has a criminal record to boot.