“Sideways” should be the official song at horse shows!
May 24 2010
I am just heading home from a show, and while it was a very nicely run show with a lot of great people at it, WOW did I ever see a lot of a pet peeve I’d like to talk about today. Namely, horses who simply cannot canter in a straight line. You know, with the hind end actually following the front end? The way they are supposed to? These days, whether you’re at a stock horse show watching pleasure horses or a Saddleseat show watching park horses, you see an amazing amount of horses who travel with their head on the wall and their butt to the middle of the ring. Around and around and around they go, doing the crab canter, encouraged by trainers and amateurs and youth alike who all pop repeatedly on the mouth without seeming to have any idea where the back end of their horse is. You might want to look behind you once in a while - the other half of the horse is not following you. And it looks ridiculous, not to mention uncomfortable. It is making many of you twist your torsos to compensate, so now you and the horse both look ridiculous. One youth rider in particular was popping her own hip and twisting with every stride to try to stay with her horse. Honey, you’re both going to need a chiropractor, and your back is going to regret that when you’re 40!
The reason these horses aren’t straight is that no one ever taught them (or, hell, LET them) go forward before slowly, patiently, teaching them to collect. There is a difference between collection and slowing down! And you cannot collect a horse with your hands – it comes from your seat and legs.  A properly trained dressage horse, for example, has no problem cantering as slowly as a top western pleasure horse. Watch some videos and you will see that this is true. It is not the speed that is required for western pleasure that is the problem – people are wrong when they get upset about the horses moving so slowly, as that’s not the real problem. It is that, instead of taking a year to develop the muscles and the collection required to do a slow, round lope, they are being yanked and cranked into the speed required but all of the beauty and fine-tuning is lost. The horse is as slow as he needs to be, but he isn’t straight or relaxed. He’s crab-cantering sideways in order to fake collection and he’s usually troping. The front end pops up in an approximation of a lope while the back end drags behind. The two ends of the horse are not synced up at all. You can achieve that result in 30 or 60 days. It is a result of the match made in hell: cheap clients and trainers who do not care about the horse. The yanking and cranking guarantees that the horse will never go in a truly relaxed fashion. He may be low-headed but his entire body is stiff as he waits for the next pop on his face, the next dig with the spurs. I saw one this weekend that was not only crab-cantering, but it was popping its head up and down, up and down, with every stride. It looked like it was having an epileptic seizure. If you are a judge and have rewarded that, shame on you – it’s disgusting!  Look at this douchebag pop on this horse’s face. Grrrross. I’d like to put that bit in HIS mouth and yank on it a few dozen times.Â
So if you have a show horse, I want you to watch him lope down the rail from behind. Does the back end follow the front, or is it off center? If your horse isn’t straight, you have a problem that you need to fix, and once you fix it, you will do better than you are doing now. The judges are cracking down on this stuff. The judges this weekend weren’t afraid to let the sidewinders leave the ring without a ribbon, no matter who was sitting on them, and I suspect we’re going to see a lot more of that in the future! Guess what, you may have to speed your horse up first to fix it. You may have to, gasp, hand gallop for a while – preferably in an open field. Particularly if your horse was trained by a face-popper. Get forward and straight first, then work on collection by using your legs and your seat with the help of a good trainer. (Taking your WP horse to a dressage trainer for a few lessons would not be a bad idea. It will not “ruin them” for WP. Really.) You cannot get a quality lope out of a horse that did not start out forward and straight.Â
Find a trainer who wins but doesn’t pop and crank. It’s not that tough - just go to a show for your type of horse/discipline and quietly observe the riding in the warm up pen. The trainer you want to give your money corrects with a squeeze of the spur, a squeeze of the fingers, a light lift up on long reins. If they are doing anything jerky, violent or unsubtle, with the exception of correcting a really bad behavior that deserves a spanking like a kick at another horse, they suck. If they appear to lose their temper, they suck. Don’t give them your money!  Vote for humane training with your wallet, and then take your humanely-trained horse out and beat the pants off the abusers. That is the only way we will ever change the things we do not like about the show world. We don’t change it by throwing our hands in the air and simply electing not to show. And yeah, my humanely-trained, straight-moving, unfixed-tailed horse won his first western pleasure blue yesterday. Is he finished and perfect? No. But he’s getting there, and he’s happy. I don’t care how long it takes. If I want something great that’s fast, I can put a burrito in the microwave!
Three side notes from this particular show: Grand Champion mare at this show was a big stout halter type BUT with fabulous bone and wonderful looking feet – plus a great temperament!  I looked her up and her sire is JLT Yella As I Wannabe, who appears to be that almost mythical super high quality, HYPP N/N cremello halter stallion. No kidding, he is really nice and has beautiful pasterns and big solid feet – go look at his site. Kudos to his owners and also to the breeder of this mare, Cathy Tyler in Louisiana. You folks need to keep breeding more just like this lovely mare, and maybe then the rest of the horse world will have some respect for an AQHA halter horse and not think it is a synonym for “crippled overfed piece of shit.”Â
Final note: I saw a horse I used to know about 4 years ago. At the time, he was the classic abused show horse who wasn’t allowed to have a personality. He rode like a million bucks but in the stall, he stood with his head in a corner, ears laid back, totally shut down. He was not even interested in food, except to snap at me when I opened the door to hay him. He was thin and looked like he had ulcers, and was owned by a skinny girl with a lot of drama in her life who rode like they all do…spur, spur, pop, pop, nose in the air and never smiling.
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Ready to give a rescue horse a happy ending? If you’re in the Nevada area, check out Beau at Shiloh Horse Rescue. Beau is an eight year old Thoroughbred gelding with a ton of potential. He likes to work and will be happy with someone who rides regularly, and at 16.2, is plenty tall enough for those of you with long legs.
200 comments to ““Sideways” should be the official song at horse shows!”
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I remember when I was 12, I was a good horse-person but a bad rider. At each lesson, my instructor always told me to “keep a steady hand”. Finally, I got more practice and “advanced” to a warmer horse. She was a great mare, but never let me get away with popping her in the mouth. for each pop, she would twitch her ears just enough to let me know to stop. With that mare, I learned to 1) take cues from your horse both on the ground and in the saddle, and 2) ALWAYS keep steady hands. Even today, those are a few rules to live by around horses in my opinion.
On your second note about the poor horse getting gut kicked, did anyone intervene?
Tears came to my eyes when I read the story about the horse you used to know that has a little boy to pamper him now. What a happy story for that one! I do own show horses but I always want them to be horses first. I have a gelding I bred and he is coming two. He has totally different breeding than the rest of my horses. I know I but created him and recently sold his dam (so I could keep him) to a great home with first buy back rights and I keep tabs on her believe you me. Anyways, I will be looking around for a WP trainer and think I may have already found one. She is fabulous and patient with the horses. The horse in the video where the douchebag was riding him looked like he became pissed at the guy from being repeatedly cranked on. Poor horse!
On another note, I am so happy to hear that judges are taking a new direction in their decisions. I walked away from showing because of what it had become and I am waiting to see if it will come back around to where the horses are allowed to perform in their natural gates, with their natural headsets. If so, I have that coming two prospect. Otherwise he’ll be my bomproof, do everything BGG (my big goofy gelding). He already has a semi-grouchy temperament he inherited from his dam and I don’t want him to become one of those miserable show horses. Lots of variety and letting him be a horse first ought to keep him happy.
I am a bit of a sap, but the story about the little boy and the horse brought tears to my eyes, too. There is nothing so precious about a child and the pet they love – whatever it is. There is a love and bond there that will last a child his entire life, and IMHO, make them a better person for it.
I can’t bear to watch the stuff that is winning in the show ring now – WP, Halter, none of it. The awful, unnatural gait of the WP horse just sickens me. What is wrong with a horse displaying natural gaits, natural head carriage, and a happy look on his face? And that goes double for the riders!
Yeah, I am not a sap and I will tell you, I nearly cried. I have this before-and-after in my head of how shut down that horse was, compared to how bright and interactive he is now. SO nice to see!
Did you intervene?
Cos that woman would not have touched the ground till she reached the officials office if I had been there.
Barring that, a few hefty kicks in her own behind might have helped…..
Curious minds want to know…how did the VLC do?!?!?!?
Blue is generally first place in the states.
this is annoying! i was just at a show this past Saturday and Sunday and guess what?! there was a horse there doing the goofy sideways lope thing BUT the good thing is the horse never placed!
Just so all you non- pleasure riders know not all pleasure horses are taught this, it looks really bad!
I mainly just trail ride, so I don’t know that much about showing. I’ve been at bigger barns with all sorts of riders though, and I’ve seen first hand some of current WP apparently considers ‘gaits’… Awful! Here’s a couple random clips of the “lope” I found on youtube. I always want to turn the horses loose to run around unhindered when I see them being forced into these slow awkward gaits. The horses always look severely lame while doing it, I don’t see the beauty of it at all…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbLK7MnftNA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ily4rBc96uo&feature=related
I found myself grunting for the horse each time it’s head/front end came down in this one as it looked so stiff and forced. I believe it shows the butt-in diagonal look fugly was describing (both vids in today’s original post have been deleted now.) According to the clips’ info this is from the 2007 Quarter Horse Congress, so I’m guessing it’s common throughout the entire discipline. Very sad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GcDsSDeexM&feature=related
Oh, I just noticed, this is a 2 YEAR OLD!!! I’m very very sad now… =(
The last video you posted is of Invest N Vital Signs…
You might be interested to note that stallion is N/H, and on hisweb site they admit not only that he is N/H, but they are using his semen as a test for this new ‘extender’ that some lab developed to try to halt the spread of HYPP. Its supposed to prevent the infected gene from being passed by the extender latching on to the infected cells, and and supposedly renders those cells from reproduction.
Its not proven, its not a guarantee. The website for InVS pretty much states that if you get a foal from him thats N/H, you get a ‘free rebreed’. So… basically you can keep breeding N/H foals from him until you get one that isn’t!!!
Hows THAT for responsible breeding?
Did I mention the $200,000 futurity contest his owners started? Thats another giant headache!
You can read the whole bit of it .
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Disgusting!
I like how you said that these ‘sideways lopers’ are taught this. You’re absolutely correct. @FHOTD Just so you know, this is not a result of ignorance, nor face popping, nor an unawareness of where their hind end is.
They do that crap on purpose!!! Yep, the idea is to have a shorter profile on the rail. But, I agree with your opinion of it being unnatural and ridiculous. It’s just another example of over-specializing. It happened to the halter horse. It is happening to the pleasure horse. And, it’s going to happen to the cutters. The QH was designed to be an all around horse – known for their athleticism. People are breeding them into uselessness.
Absolutely. And it’s really up to everybody to specifically pick out horses for breeding stock that have shown their versatility, if you want to preserve that in the QH.
It’s interesting, I admit I used to be one of those people who thought shows like Pinto and Buckskin were merely schooling grounds for the “real” shows and weren’t as significant as winning at AQHA or APHA. Now I go to those and think, jeez, I LIKE the horses that are winning at these shows SO much more. I LIKE that they have classes like Disciplined Rail where a horse really has to be BROKE to win, and that lots of people participate in those classes. I LIKE that people game their pleasure horses and do not think it is going to “ruin” them. I LIKE that I see more people who LOVE their horses and feed treats and snuggle them and don’t just walk around with a stick up their ass looking like they aren’t having any fun and snatching on the horses’ faces. I’m starting to think these shows are the last place you can find true all-around horses.
The idea of a happy, mint-eating horse is about the cutest thing I can imagine.
That Yella As I Wannabe stallion is grossly overweight. A lot of those halter horse owners don’t know the difference between fat and muscle.
Nooo, he’s really not that bad. his sire on the other hand is scary. Mr Yella Fella http://www.fossilgatefarms.com/mryellafella.html
Wow, I don’t get it…
I really don’t see how people are drawn to a horse who looks like that… The HUGE bodies and a tiny head….
It looks very unhealthy to me…
I don’t see the appeal of this horse either. He looks like a devil horse with those scary eyes.
Congrats to you and the VLC on the blue ribbon! That has to be gratifying.
I have more of an appendix QH, and I can’t stand the big muscle-bound ones! I think they are horrible looking. All I can think of (and I think someone else mentioned this somewhere) are those steroid freak muscle bound dudes. Bleck!!!!
My personal taste runs more to the Appendix horses also, or horses with quite a bit of TB in them. Triple Chick, Top Deck, Depth Charge, and similar lines are always my cup of tea. The only thing I do not like is when they’re not pretty. The Beduinos are fast but damn they have a lot of unattractive horses in that line. I still want my pretty head with the big jowl and the little ears.
Top Deck horses are PURDY!!! Love ‘em.
Two Eyed Jack horses can be goofy looking but a lot of fun to work with.
I need to find out my own boy’s breeding. He has these amazing camel withers & linebacker shoulders. And he gets his feelings hurt easily…
I LOVE the Two Eyed Jacks.
I just think they have a great attitude and all the ones I’ve worked with have been so good with kids. They like to babysit.
AGH!!! Seriously, if you have that much cash to put into a horse, you have enough money to find someone with decent Photoshop skills. The shopped photos on that site are horrid, and…yeah. The top photo- If those front hooves aren’t shopped, I’ll eat my hat, sans ketchup. And the photo title “Yellafront”- Yeah, again…I’ll eat my hat *and* boots without ketchup if that photo ain’t shopped.
I SUCK at P’shop, and so, I don’t attempt to do stuff like that. *headdesk*
Yeah, I was just thinking about that. Why do YOU think that in every picture he has, they have either cropped the hooves out, had them deep in grass, or in the ONE picture they are visible, plain as day photoshop the hell out of them? Hmmm? Wonder why.
I am a graphic designer. The FIRST thing I noticed was the horse *floating* in the grass. Ugh! I surf the net a LOT, and I cringe every time I see crap like this. It is embarrassing!! But everyone and their dog has PhotoShop *Elements* now (which, trust me, is *not* Photoshop) and think they’re designers!
Please, unless you have Photoshop, Quark or InDesign, AND Illustrator… AND know how to use them ALL, don’t even *attempt* to do shit like this!!!
And if all you have is some software you’ve pirated, or worse yet, downloaded free… just power down the computer and walk away.
PS: I’ve done graphic design in the oil & gas industry in Canada for close to 15 years, and before that worked at an advertising agency. As for horses, I’ve ridden all my life, but have only *owned* my own horse for a year… I am a total amateur at THAT.
Sparkly animation, purple satin tile, the requisite flag, bouncy menu, abundant script fonts, border upon border upon border, photos awkwardly cropped with disproportionally heavy frames, cutesy titles like “sale barn” and “bargain corral” …
Cathy, it may be time for another “how to market your horse” installment, specifically dedicated to these equine website abominations.
I’ll start a list.
Oh send me some fugly ones – I’ll put them up!
Grossly overweight? I say grossly over injected.
My God, they’re boyj obese! How does that unathletic look ever catch on for a breed that is supposed to (or at least theoreticaly be capable of) work for a living?
But yes, nice pasterns. The hooves are a bit hard to see but I’ll take your word for it. Now all he needs is a horn and he really will be that “mythical super high quality, HYPP N/N cremello halter stallion”,
Scroll down and you can see the side shot – the hooves are good sized. The daughter that I saw this weekend, it REALLY caught my eye how nice and large her feet were and how correct her pasterns were. I hardly EVER see that on a winning halter horse, which is why I did a double-take and found out the breeding!
Mr Yella Fella is one of the few proven halter horses that can actually move. Did you watch any of his videos? I know a lot of performance horses that can’t get around that well.
Being familiar with the Smooth Town lines, many of them were big, gorgeous, halter horses that could move. Many were too toasty to ride, but you couldn’t deny they were athletic, good movers, and exceptionally pretty. They weren’t plagued with upright pasterns or tiny feet. I watched Greg Whalen lead Smooth Towns for years, and their movement was often breathtaking. (A lot of times, they also resembled Lipizzans, but I digress…)
A Smooth Town-bred with a riding mentality – I’d take one any day of the week. The last one I had burned rocket fuel, but I know there are some riders out there.
I like a motor, myself
I get tired riding those horses that are all leg, leg, leg.
I’m trying to think why I think I don’t like the MYF’s. I think I saw a couple in a row that were had TINY feet but that could have been from the mare side. Also I am now starting to see how often the feet are photoshopped SMALLER which boggles my mind. I’m certainly willing to have my opinion changed!
He looks unbalanced to me his neck is far too short and is that really a good hock set?? Halter is as Halter does – and what can a horse like this really do? He does carry good bunchy muscle.
it’s not just the western and saddleseat riders that have zero clue on how to train a horse to go straight! I see this all the time in the hunter-jumper ring (and the dressage ring – but the difference there is that the judge ANIALATES
annihilates
it’s not just the western and saddleseat riders that have zero clue on how to train a horse to go straight! I see this all the time in the hunter-jumper ring (and the dressage ring – but the difference there is that the judge ANIALATES them, so most learn how to correct it if they ever want to get past training level!!).
A couple of dressage trainers have told me it’s ‘natural’ for a horse to travel this way on their own, but allowing them to do so is a back problem waiting to happen – funny, yet again a common problem in most disciplines that classical dressage training will cure….go figure! Maybe that’s why in Europe, many students prove themselves in the dressage ring before ever attempting another discipline??
I can kinda see the sideways thing being natural in nature–horses are “handed” like we are and may prefer one lead to the other and develop slightly asymmetrically. Dressage (and other training) should help correct for that via symmetric muscle development.
Much of the sideways movement Fugly refers to is due to poor training and muscle and coordination development, but a big part of it too is that we as riders are crooked. Standing my legs seem the same length, but riding, one falls shorter than the other because one hip flexor is far more giving than the other. I adjust my stirrups accordingly. A lot of people don’t investigate their own body symmetry and figure if the tack is straight, they are too. That screwiness transmits straight to a contorted horse.
And yeah, that Yella horse is OK, but really, really fat looking. And his feet appear photoshopped. In the second picture, it looks like the boy has socks on both his hind legs. In the first photo, there’s no color change. Definitely looks touched up. Why can’t people just square their horse up on flat ground and leave the fancy cut and paste to a purdy background alone?
And finally, that video is down already. That was fast!
Yes, that yella horse does look too fat. And what’s with photo-shopping your horse into a ‘pretty’ picture? If you want a background like that, just get a good photographer on call, wait for a nice day, and go take one! Geeze. :p
Yeah, I went to that video just now and oh, surprise, surprise, it’s been removed.
Wow, do you actually adjust your stirrups differently? lol
Do you still work at getting straighter…? JW
I’ve ridden for several trainers who didn’t have even stirrups. One was so far off it would cramp my one leg– she was a bit of an OCD case and wouldn’t let me change her stirrups when I rode.
WEIRD!
I ride with uneven stirrups as well. My one leg is bit weaker and stiffer due to old surgery and damage to a nerve. I tried hard to strenghten and stretch it by excercise, and was always reaching down for that stirrup. Finally gave up and shortened the stirrup. Voila, that evened up my hips and shoulders and improved my balance and aids and my horse’s responses.
New horses wobble a bit when I first get on them. Then they ‘get it ” and even out. (I only ride trained, quiet horses at my age and stage and am always amazed how quickly they adapt.) I do not have strong nor even legs but fortunately my own horse, an arabian, is sensetive to hip and upper body changes and light leg aids. I would not manage as well on a horse that needs to be driven strongly off the leg. How fortunate that there are such a variety of horses to suit us all!
I have a short leg. I think it’s perfectly logical that we’re all somewhat asymmetrical.
But I also have veerrrrry slight scoliosis – one shoulder is a bit higher, which no one ever noticed except ALL my voice teachers. It would drive ‘em nuts and they’d try to “even me up” which would make me feel like I was trying to be the Elephant Man.
Also I have a very crooked, almost smirky smile. I have to consciously force my left cheek up a little when I’m getting some kind of “professional” photo taken.
A horse with no training will rarely be straight – it is almost always something which is acheived through training. I would agree about the handedness thing as they often find it much easier to canter on one rein than the other. and straightness is so important – without it they can’t properly collect as they won’t have their back ends under them. They also cannot be straight without the relaxation which requires them to be allowed to go forwards as fugs says. Collection also requires extension which requires you to allow the horse to go forwards.
As well as showing this crabbing is something you see so much in show jumping at lower levels – all the steering is done with the hands, as well as the speed control – the hands holds back and pull the horse out onto the correct cirle instead of pushing the horse out with the inside leg which creates this crabbing. You also see it when the rider is holding the horse back and restricting the speed without having proper collection. I think that this is a problem in most disciplines because people want the results withou putting the work in.
A-yup. And as an ex-jumper rider, let me tell you that leads to problems when that crooked old thing jumps from that canter. Not to mention, try getting a decent flying change when your horse is twisting itself into a pretzel. My first trainer had the belief that “It’s jumpers, it doesn’t matter what you look like as long as you get around the course.” But the problem is, although her riders had a moderate amount of success, they also tended to get into messes they couldn’t handle and end up in spectacular wrecks. It’s much easier, in the long run, to go back to decent dressage training and teach the horse to respond to your leg properly, collect, lighten up in front, etc., than to try to recover from a broken pelvis because you were cowboying around the course and your horse came down on you. I swear – this was a long time ago, and looking back now, at the great variety of severe injuries this trainer’s riders had – well, I feel lucky, the worst things that ever happened to me were a concussion and a couple of minor fractures. And at the time we all thought this trainer was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
On the other side of this argument, there’s a three-day course designer who says he believes that the greater emphasis on dressage is causing more wrecks in cross-country, because dressage teaches the horse not to rely on its own judgment but to always surrender to the rider. It seems to me that’s not so much a problem with dressage itself as with some of the problems with modern dressage, which is a whole other issue.
If you go back a ways, I blogged about watching a Grand Prix jumper class this past fall and being SO damn impressed by Richard Spooner because he WASN’T slowing down his horses with his hands. He had control and straightness. He won. I wish people would learn from that!
I think rolkur got so popular because people are getting this idea that they must DOMINATE.
They took the once-desirable trait of “submission” and turned it into something else.
Also I think sometimes that folks who grow up doing hardcore eq stuff – Maclay etc. – might overthink the really techie stuff, and lose sight of some basics. I love the Horsemastership sessions chronicled in Practical Horseman: great, solid basics they’re re-learning.
I don’t know how people can *ride* that. I go crazy if the horse I’m on develops wandering hindquarters syndrome (I ride one mare who if she gets excited throws her shoulder out and her quarters in, and man, I am working so hard on FIXING that…it drives me NUTS).
I have to have the horse straight. Forward is priority one, then straight. My favorite saying to remind myself is ‘The halt is a forward movement’. Because EVERYTHING has to go forward. You don’t get collection without forward. You can get slow, sure. But slow and collected are different things and even though pleasure collection is a bit different from dressage collection, they are both collection, NOT slow.
I think the big problem is people not being able to tell the difference. Isn’t a western pleasure horse supposed to glide smoothly across the arena? Isn’t it supposed to *flow*?
If you aren’t forward first and straight second and collected third, you aren’t flowing. In dressage, if you aren’t straight, you have no ‘lift’ (That is what the word means, after all). A crooked horse can’t lift its back and shoulders and come onto the bit correctly…how can one do a pleasure frame correctly?
But again. I don’t get how people can ride that without it driving them nuts. Do they not know what a straight horse feels like?
There is a series of videos someone linked to last time WP horses came up on Youtube. Here is the horse in WP at 2, in a WP show, then being allowed to move out at 3. It’s amazing what a little impulsion will do for a horse’s look! There’s also a cowboy dressage channel.
Actually, he might be three in all of those videos. My bad.
WOW! How much more of a “pleasure” does he look to ride in the second video?!
Why do you just not ride snails??
Honestly watching either of those videos was about as exciting as watching paint drying, the second one was marginally better than the first but the horse is still cramped, not using his hind quarters and really unhappy!
Is there, I have to ask, actually any American riding class that does not involve crippling the horse?
Yes. To be honest, any of our classes can be done without crippling the horse. The problem is that most horses aren’t built for the discipline, but we still use them for the discipline. The other problem is that what Europeans expect their horses to achieve at age 6 or 8, we expect our horses to achieve at age 2. We put the big money on the baby classes, and we choose to ‘use em up’ instead of training and showing the same horse for years.
Yes. And when you publicly discuss training your horse, and detail how he was started lightly at 3, went to the trainer at 4 and now has begun showing at 5, you hear that if he didn’t win money as a two year old, he will NEVER be a stallion prospect.
I was also told he’d never even make a pleasure horse because he was “started too late” and all kinds of other b.s. nonsense. Boy, people are angry and defensive about maintaining their fucked-up system that saves them money but cripples horses young!
The jumper world is full of “use ‘em then loose ‘em” horses. Most don’t get out of top level competition sound and increasingly (because of insurance money) it’s more cost effective to have them break down at 10 so you can invest the insureance money in a new one.
And stalions get started way too young here too because it’s easier (and way cheeper) to get a 4yo through the stalion testing scheme than it is to go back and get an older stalion through based on his progeny. I do LOVE the testing schemes here but I think they shouln’t make it so dificult for older (like 6) horses, who were started later and brought on slower, to get through testing.
I think the second one is not long out of his WP training, I don’t know what you’d have to do to get his muscles working properly again so I gave him a bit of a pass. I sure don’t ride like that, but it’s better than the first video.
Most of our sports, once they get big, are designed to ignore the strain on the athletes involved if the modern version of the sport is exciting and profitable enough. See what happens to young human sports players with serious talent, then imagine if his mom were getting the glory and could trade him away for a better player at any time.
I think one of our biggest problems is that many riders are taught how to ride for years before they are taught anything about horsemanship. Pony Club is niche at best, especially away from the coasts, 4H/FFA are totally dependent on who’s running that county and whether they have anyone who knows horses, and most riding stables aren’t set up to teach anything but staying on. The US horse industry died after WWII and I think we’re still restructuring.
I’m with you on that kirri. I found the first 2 videos sickening to watch. The 3rd was marginally better. I have such a hard time understanding how this type of movement makes it into a show ring let alone win in a show ring.
If someone showed me this horse standing still … “isn’t he cute”, as soon as he started to move I’d be out of there. I wonder how he moves if they turned him out into a 20 acre paddock with some grass in it? I’d like to snap him with the end of a lunge whip just to see if he could move out naturally, and if it could be fixed.
I only watched the last video, but YEAH! THAT’s what I’m talkin’ about.
He’s a little heavy on the forehand, but other than that… I also love that they’re riding right by the interstate, and the horse is totally cool with that, and paying attention to his rider.
Yes. WP should look like that. 1000000%.
That video was of a western riding style. It’s an event requiring multiple lead changes on a set course. I think of it as being halfway in between a western pleasure horse and a reining horse.
It’s so SILLY isn’t it? All these divisions within divisions.
I guess if I ever went back into Western, I’d get a perky little Foundation horse and learn something fun like Cowboy Mounted Shooting, where you get to ride fast, shoot guns and dress up in old timey costumes……
OT but here are some free horses that need an upgrade
http://madison.craigslist.org/grd/1756721315.html
Free 11 year old gelding (Ixonia)
Date: 2010-05-24, 10:00AM CDT
Reply to: sale-zgpzt-1756721315@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
We have a 11 year old Quarter horse gelding in need of a good home. He is good for the farrier, vet and grooming. He has some anxiety and emotional issues. He is also very herd bound and does best if pastured with one other horse. I’m looking for a new home with a confident handler because he lacks confidence in himself. I have worked on some of these issues but I don’t have the time he requires. He comes from an abusive back round so a home where he will be properly cared for is a must. He is registered with Doc Bar and Mr San Peppy in his backround and I would say he is green broke because I only rode him a couple times last year. He has lots of potential but needs consistent training. If you feel you have the right home or have any other questions please contact me. Approved home only!!
http://madison.craigslist.org/grd/1756689048.html
Free Reg Arab Geld (central Wisconsin)
Date: 2010-05-24, 9:45AM CDT
Reply to: sale-q3xge-1756689048@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
Free! 2 yr old arab gled. Very sweet and friendly. Reg. almost black . pickes up feet good. Not started undersaddle. Would be a good family horse. I do not have time for him. I have too many other horses. a good home is a must!!! Please calls only!!!!!! (920)407-0394
OMG, not only does that *sound* like my “first born”, Beau ( http://sharonmcleod.ca/blog/archives/459 ) but it freakin’ *looks* like him too!!! Right down to the little star!
Oh, my heart breaks for that guy. If I lived nearer… I’d probably have to bring him home.
On your 2nd note, I hope someone gut kicks the hell outa her someday…hopefully said horse
Your 3rd note brought tears to my eyes. I love the fact that he has totally changed and for the happier and may he have many more minty breath days ahead of him
I remember using the method of turning your horse so he traveled like that in the canter to teach him to slow down. Nowadays I know I can use it to help the horse square back up and perform the correct TWH canter. And it can build muscle on one side or another, depending on which way you’re turning the horse. I know they use it in the ASB world, but it’s so sad they’re starting to ALLOW it in the ring. That was a training tool I learned, nothing more. I remember being taught that you never us training tools in the show ring. If you have to in the warmup ring, you can, but very subtly. I’ve of course learned things like the half halt and certain ways of using my body subtly to make sure my horse rides square and true as a TWH should in the show ring, but you don’t use training tools there. I don’t get why this particular unspoken “rule” has gone away.
Oh ouch. That yank-and-pop video looks painful. It’s not the easiest to see what’s going on, but it looks like he’s popping the horse even when it’s already ears-below-withers. He just pops *harder* when it pulls its head up.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding of training is that it all revolves around teaching the horse to give to pressure – let your nose go wherever the human guides it, move away from the hard leg, step over when they push your flank, etc. So how does it work to have a yank upwards mean ‘put your head further down’? It seems more than a little counter-intuitive. Are there (legitimate) signals that go against the ‘give to pressure’ rule, or is it always a bad idea?
Lifting upwards with the reins, done gently, with a looping rein, just changes the weight hanging on the bit. A very responsive horse who has been trained in a snaffle feels that as you asking the horse to tip its nose in. The release on a properly trained horse then encourages it to drop its head and stretch its back more as it flattens its neck back out. Same basic theory as a free walk with a dressage horse (looping rein) after asking the horse to move on contact results in the horse happily stretching its neck down and out to stretch the rest of its body, too.
The yank/jerk/rip thing is a sick perversion of that.
Exactly. You can lift, hold and release and if you have your timing right, it is not abusive. It’s never a yank or a jerk. I wish more people knew the difference!
Just like the flex inside rein, release and check with the outside maneuver that’s done to get a dressage horse to ‘release’ its neck and jaw transforms in the hands of the lazy and dumb to ‘sawing at its mouth to get the nose down’. Sigh.
Bingo!
As I always say, EVERY discipline has people who use short-cuts and are abusive. No discipline is the saintly one that is above all the rest.
Essentially, they are all versions of a half-halt as interpreted by different disciplines. When I started riding it was at a school with an owner who loved dressage, but had all disciplines represented. I didn’t know any better at the time, so didn’t realize riding with a western instructor, hunter jumper instructor and FEI dressage trainer every week was unusual. Especially since their lessons on horsemanship all matched up. I never knew the term half halt until I was a teen, then figured my interpretation must have been wrong because it was so simple to me, and I heard how hard they are. It wasn’t until my 20s I realized it was actually a lack of horsemanship taught as people learn to ride which handicaps them, rather than half halts themselves being difficult.
I always say I wouldn’t have known how to train my western pleasure/all around horses without dressage… I supposed these videos demonstrate one way! I still wouldn’t know how to force myself to do that to a horse, though.
Hrm… I half halt with my seat. I use flex-check-release if the horse is either fussing excessively with the bit or, more commonly, bracing the neck and jaw and throwing the head up. (Hence why people think its to get the head down…it is, but not as the first resort technique…its used if the horse is refusing to drop the nose and accept the contact). Even on the mare I sometimes ride who braces her neck *all the time* I only do it, oh, maybe once or twice a circuit of the arena and that’s when she’s being bad. These people do it every freaking stride.
Ah, thanks. So performed correctly, it’s still giving to pressure. A lift on the reins creates (gentle) pressure on the bit, the horse gives to pressure by bringing its nose in. Then when released, the horse relaxes, stretches its neck and back, and lowers its head. It sounds like it’s more of a reminder cue for an already well trained horse, rather than how you go about teaching a greenie to drop their head, yes?
Yes, although with a mild bit and a little more hold and rhythm to your ‘pumping’ motion, you basically can help a young horse learn how to balance and lift in its gait. It’s all in the timing. Technically you should be using your rein cues on a western pleasure horse to help them balance and lift, with the idea that once balanced and lifted, you release your reins, the horse stays balanced, and because it is balanced its head naturally drops to a low and relaxed position. Which might only happen for a stride or two in a young or green horse. Then you help them find their balance again, then release your reins… a cycle which hopefully results in a broke horse who only needs an occasional reminder to keep him soft and comfortable in his gaits.
The problem usually comes when the trainer has been riding the horse for a while, the horse isn’t becoming independent quickly enough, so the trainer decides to use the move as a punishment instead of assistance. “You better balance yourself, you darn horse, or I’ll make you regret EVER needing my help.” To some extent, it works– the horse learns that if it unbalances, it’s going to be in a world of hurt. Unfortunately, it doesn’t solve the basic problem of why the horse is losing its collection and balance. Are its muscles undeveloped? Is it sore? It is not built to hold its balance alone that long? Is it unable to judge the ground and is being thrown off stride by a depression or hill? The horse knows the punishment isn’t fair, so the ears pin, the tail cranks, the lips tighten… and either he’s ruined, or the trainers reach for a needle or another gimmick.
I was gonna say somethine like that. Rein contact is basically a no-no in the WP world, i believe, so most horses are taught that the rider moving their hand straight up is the signal for them to tuck their nose in. I show WP with a very (very) small association, so I’m really not too familiar with it.
What did you say to the person who was kicking the horse? Did they stop then? Asshole.
Not that I agree with it, but there is an actual reason why they move that way and it is taught intentionally. Well, not so sure about the saddlbreds but I assume it’s the same as the stock breeds. Again, I DO NOT agree, but you intentionally move the hip to the inside and keep the body straight (not bending) which translates into a slightly diagonal position. The horses lope “better” this way. Well bred, naturally moving pleasure horses can maintain a beautiful slow lope in a straight line without head bobbing to propel themselves. Horses that aren’t quite capable of performing in that manner can be faked into it by moving that hip to the inside. I think it has something to do with riding into a wall (your brakes) but them being able to still see where they want to go (your momentum). It’s disheartening to see trainers apply the technique to truly talented nice moving pleasure horses as a rule, when they’d be able to do it if they moved straight. What I am happy about is that judges (AQHA at least) are starting to crack down on it, along with the dreaded 4-beat lope and the too-low headsets.
Ugg, I see people do that “crab canter” all the time. My horse that’s been off the track 9 months now can go slow and straight while collected(at least as collected as he’ll get at this stage) no problem. Obviously he’s not perfect yet, its only been 9 months. But he moves around with his hind end under him in a relaxed manner at a fairly slow pace if I ask. I see people trying to force a frame everywhere I go, I can’t seem to get away from it anywhere. My biggest pet peeve is people who think a race horse is training well because it has a bow in its neck, and exercise riders who deliberately bow the horses head because that’s the way its supposed to be done. Newsflash people, the horse will bow its head on its own when you have it MOVING OFF ITS HIND END like they’re supposed to. I overhear people talking about their horse that is training, “oh look at how well he’s training, he’s got a nice big bow in his neck”. Sure he has his neck bent in half, but he’s hollow and just pounding his front feet on the ground and making himself sore and looks miserable. Granted there are riders and trainers who get the concept of horses pushing with their hind instead of pulling with the front, and those are the ones who win races
OT, but I just bought Beyond the Homestretch today. Only read the first chapter but I can’t wait til the next time I have to poop so I can read more LOL. Super awesome.
Also my boyfriend has convinced me its time to sell my TB, and as much as I hate to admit it, he’s right
(if any of you tell him I said that I will shoot you, he’s not allowed to know when he’s right! LOL). Would be a REALLY good intermediate horse, he’s a big suck ball and a goofy. He is so much fun I’m gonna miss him SO much 
He’s in Edmonton Alberta, Here is a link to his ad http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/c-pets-livestock-for-sale-6yo-17h-thoroughbred-gelding-for-lease-or-sale-W0QQAdIdZ206762254
The sideways thing drove me a little crazy when I was horse shopping. I was looking at Morgans to do eventing/dressage, and any horse that had been in the Morgan breed ring had the sideways canter, or at the very least one had to turn them to the wall to get the correct lead. The mare I bought had never been in the regular breed ring, only sport horse classes, so she didn’t do that. She canters from a single leg aid — sit down, and “swipe” the leg like a windshield on the NON-lead side. It helps to have her in very slight shoulder in (shoulder fore).
I think people do it in pleasure classes to get the correct lead to start out, and then the horse just carries it.
Congrats, Cathy! Do we get to see any pictures of your boy in the ring?
That cremello stud still has bone too small for his body, especially his front legs. Fugs, you may have been hanging around too many halter horses lately, they are starting to look normal to you.
Yeah, really. Obese and butt high, like far too many QHs. Not my idea of great conformation for a riding horse.
But, I guess if you aspire to have a horse move like this, that cremello’s build is just the ticket:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDcV_U5VhM0&feature=related
I think if you do some research on the pedigrees of a lot of the WP horses, they typically have thoroughbred breeding; not at all like the halter horse breeding. If you look at the cremello’s breeding, his top end is halter and his bottom end has some performance horses in it. I didn’t think he was that bad. When I was a kid, I rode a Leo bred bull dog foundation quarter horse mare and she had that type of build. There was not Impressive breeding at all.
Watching that video was PAINFUL!
Okay, seriously, someone who rides WP explain to me: why does anyone want a horse to move like that? Who in the WP world first decided that it was illegal to pick up the reins? Why must the horse jog so slowly that it looks as if it might die at any moment? My husband, who is not a horse person of any kind, just looked over as I was looking at that video and said, “What is wrong with that horse?”
It can’t be because it’s more comfortable, because if you look at the lady in the video, she looks like her spine is being jolted out through the top of her hat. And every WP horse I’ve ever met was nasty, nasty, nasty because it’s so unnatural that they all hate life. So… someone explain… why? It’s even more mystifying to me than the sick-ass rocking horse canter with swiveling hocks of the Big Lick Walker people. At least that looks exciting to people who don’t know any better.
Well, it is the “style” and let’s face it, EVERY breed/discipline has stylistic things that really can’t be defended logically. I mean, try to argue the logical point of a park horse. I don’t object to stylistic things as long as they are not achieved through abuse and as long as they do not contribute to/cause unsoundness.
I hope you get to meet my horse one day. He’s happy and he can go slow, though not AS slow as what you see winning in many places. I don’t know if he will be slow enough to win at AQHA but I do not have any plans to slow him down more. They will either place a quality mover that is not quite as slow, or they won’t. And he may get popped because he sometimes picks up his tail, but hey at least mine has the use of his tail. I heard some amateur this weekend LOUDLY discussing how they’d blocked her horse’s tail a COUPLE times and it still moved, damn it, with her friend. It is like it is not even illegal, people don’t even try hard to hide it. Reminds me of marijuana in Los Angeles!
I think what we are failing to comprehend, me included, is WHY anyone in their right mind would want a horse to go that slow???
It is not as if it is of any use whatsoever in the real world, it is not as if it serves a purpose so just why would anyone want to cripple their horses in this way, when, in the real world, we actually want contact with our horses mouths and we do actually like to see the horse has a head, when we are on board!
Outside of a showring, were you to attempt to ride like this, first time the horse stumbled you would go straight over it’s head!
It just makes me want to curl up laughing to watch those poor deformed creatures limping into the ring, it takes them half an hour to get to the top of the ring and that is at what they laughingly refer to as a “lope”
O.M.G!!!
Please, just stop…..Just. Stop.
Before the rest of the world dies laughing at you.
Well, dressage comes from movements designed for war, and we’re not using horses for war anymore, either, so you could argue it’s of no use in the real world.
Most of us with a few exceptions aren’t doing WORK with our horses anymore. Everything we do with them is for our entertainment.
WAIT, wait wait wait wait WAIT WAAAAAAIT a minnit.
A swishing tail is… um… a swishing tail. What’s wrong with a swishing tail, I ask you???
A WRINGING tail, which is totally different, is a sign of pain or other discontent. If the horse is merely being pissy, wrings his tail and STILL performs, then I give kudos to him for succeeding under protest.
All this goddamned tail blocking, fake weighted tails, breeding for bad conformation that features the whipped puppy/my ass is melting tailset – it’s blinded stock horse enthusiasts to the fact that – it’s JUST A FREAKIN’ TAIL. If the horse is mad or hurt, and wringing his tail with a nasty expression, then FIGURE OUT why he’s mad. Just swishing it because he feels like it – and some horses DO have expressive tails – is NOOOOORRRRRRMMMMMMAAAAAALLLLLLL.
You know the funny thing about that video of the 2009 World Show winner? The first time I ever saw it I was like, “Finally, a WP horse that kind of moves correctly, kind of, and doesn’t look 10000% DONE with life.”
Oh, it’s not just that a swishing tail is discouraged, it’s that the tail is supposed to lie VERY flat against the butt for AQHA. My horse sometimes likes to pick his up a little away from his butt. You know, heaven forbid. LOL. I don’t have a problem with the weighted tails since it’s a humane way of accomplishing the “look” that is desirable, but of course I’m 100%, absolutely, you’re-a-POS-if-you-do-this opposed to injections.
And let’s face it, a lot of blocking goes on because they KNOW the horse is sore/hurt/mad and they are trying to disguise it ’cause they don’t give a shit.
Dude – you know I will never agree with the fake tails: they are a creepy by-product of the slaughter industry, and they just look DUMB. NOT humane at all! It just helps perpetuate a whole raft of WRONG.
If you have to inject drugs or tie weights on your horse’s tail to achieve the “desired look,” then, um, the dominant paradigm needs some subvertin’.
A quiet, calm, relaxed horse doesn’t have to have a tail that looks like a fancy afterthought. In fact, it’s an extension of the spine, and helps aid in balance.
I was gonna say. That fake tail comes from a slaughtered horse. If you’re opposed to slaughter and in favor of fake tails, there’s a disconnect somewhere.
I don’t actually like a lot of what modern dressage riders are doing, any more than the WP people, and for similar reasons. Horses aren’t meant to run around with their faces tucked to their chests – up until twenty years ago it was understood that being behind the vertical was an indicator of total incompetence – and any time some part of a horse’s body gets massively over muscled in comparison to other parts, it’s a sign you’re doing something the hard way. Like ballet dancers. A ballet dancer with giant thigh muscles is guaranteed to be a ballet dancer with flawed technique. Horses are not meant to be built up in the front like hyenas. But the kicker is that modern dressage horses mostly look miserable. I don’t care how many gallons of slobber your horse is dripping down his face, if he’s wincing and bracing his head, he’s not “accepting the bit.” And, while other commenters have it right that tail movement is not always a sign of the horse being mad, that swishy pop the horse just did when asked for a lead change? means he’s mad.
The thing is, at its best, dressage involves a sane and sound athlete, doing something that looks pretty, which is also fun to ride. I’m not seeing that WP, even at its best, is ever any of those things. So far no one is giving any evidence to the contrary! I’m open to being converted, if you love WP, tell me what the deal is.
Honestly, I do not think of anything as pure fun unless you’re chasing a cow, a ball, or a barrel, so I am not the one to defend this one, ha ha.
However, I know for a fact WP does not have to be abusive.
As for the tails, well, I look at it the same way I do leather. It’s not being killed FOR the tail. Nor is a cow being killed TO make my purse. You may not agree with my logic but there it is.
My reining mare rides the whole loping part of the pattern with her tail out and picks it up whenever she does a lead change or something that excites her. That is just her and my trainer was surprised when I told him I wouldn’t have it blocked or nerved; not because he was going to talk me into it but because he doesn’t agree with it and tries to talk people out of it. If you look at the NRHA futurities and big money/horse/trainers, the majority of their horses appear to have been blocked, but definitely not all of them have been. To me when she swishes her tail or picks it up she is having fun and she definitely loves what she does. As far as the tail extensions go, I have some horses with the big hair gene and others without it but regardless of whether they have it ir not they will go au natural. I love the long flowing manes and tails and think horses should be able to be shown in any discipline with natural manes and tails. I also hate the halter clipping that is dome on WP horses. Back in the day we used to clip but nothing like the fine art (I jest!) it has become where you have to have several different blades to get that “perfect” look. Oh, and don’t even get me started on that shiney crap they put all over the nose and eyes.
Didn’t… couldn’t watch the whole video
but the trainers have trained the spark of life right out of those pour horses. Really… just SICK!
Actually, the mare might have good bone– they shopped the stud’s legs to be more fine boned in those pictures. Just look at his feet– I’ve seen bigger hooves on goats– in the front shot. Then in the side shot his hooves look bigger.
Regardless, with that much weight on a horse, they better have platters for feet.
Yes, if you look at the side shot, you see the size of his feet. Much better than most halter horses. And I saw the mare in person, so that was not ‘shopped!
The videos are gone, does someone else have an example? I haven’t been to a Western show since Congress a few years ago lol!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqlyRfseOm8&feature=related
The European boys, with their forward moving pleasure horses.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B39vqtB02dM
The American version, if you can stand to watch it. About 5:00 minutes into it is when you will see about three examples of the ‘hips in’ lope. Almost all of the horses are head bobbing, and while not as many are bringing their hips in when they lope to the right, that’s pretty typical.
I’ll admit I was shocked to see the four beat jogs though. Most trainers don’t have that anymore.
The European horses have it slightly better. Note how many spectators there are. Like, 2.
I still consider the poll roughly level with the saddle horn to be a good, natural head position that frees the shoulder and allows the horse to, like, see where he’s going and not look totally defeated.
They are horses, not droids.
Yeah, the funny thing is that sometimes too high isn’t the problem. The VLC likes to go below level and has had to be reminded to come up to level, but some of that is being a stallion and wanting to sniff the ground and see who’s been there. He hates Vick’s, which a lot of stallion owners use, but tolerates flowery-smelling grooming stuff which has the same effect.
Zorro loves anything scented like LAVENDER!!!
Well, I have another personal reason for wanting the head up more. Horse’s restrict their vision when they drop their heads into pleasure position. A nose behind the vertical with ears below the withers means it can’t see well, and it also doesn’t have a lot of clearance if it trips. I’ve seen pleasure horses somersault, for no other reason than that they couldn’t buy any room to maneuver out of a trip.
Yes, but that’s not a truly correct WP headset. The nose should not be behind the vertical in *any* discipline…for exactly that reason. Rollkured horses can’t see where they’re going either. A correct pleasure frame, English or western, has the neck *level* and the nose *at the vertical*. And is comfortable. Sigh.
Seriously, all this attention to where the damn nose is as opposed to what his neck and shoulders are *doing* is so indicative of the ignorance that runs rampant in stock horse – and sometimes dressage, these days – circles.
There’s a gorgeous photo essay featuring a breathtaking gray horse ridden by George Morris in the June 2009 edition of Practical Horseman magazine titled: “Observations for Hunters & Jumpers: George Morris demonstrates correct riding.” In the article, George says, “The fashion today in ALL disciplines is to overbend horses’ necks, both vertically and laterally.” And later: “When a horse is able to maintain his own rhythm, impulsion, straightness and balance without hand or leg for some strides, he is demonstrating the ultimate achievement in riding and jumping – self carriage!”
He also comments that a horse’s neck shouldn’t be too rubbery – it’s an extension of his spine, like the prow of a ship, and the flexion – at the poll – shouldn’t be too wobbly soft… responsive and giving, but not like brakes giving out, is my interpretation.
Having shown for 45 years, I have seen many fad riding styles come and go. I remember the days when everyone rode off the rail, then when asked to canter, rode into the fence, and jumped them back towards the direction they were going to get the correct lead. That seemed to go away for a long time, and now it’s coming back again because people are using the fence to keep their horses slow. You are correct, crabbing down the rail looks stupid. You might as well carry a sign that says, “This is the only way I can keep my horse slow on a loose rein.” You haven’t seen anything until you hang around the show grounds after hours, when the general audience and non-involved owners go home and the “trainers” come out from under their rocks. Let the whacking, spurring, jerking, and the cantering in place with the nose on the chests begin. Not only does this stuff make me cringle, but they are doing it on younger and younger horses. I overheard one trainer tell someone that his young horses are only good for a year, then he pawns them off on suckers. (who of course have to deal with the physical and mental issues he caused) Over heard a lunge liner’s wife brag about how many hours her husband works their baby on the line – something like 7 hours a day! Just go to Congress and look at the spurs the teenaged girls are wearing as they work their horses down before their classes. Look at the tiny wire bits, the rock grinder spurs, the never ending pop pop pop on the mouth. Of course these methods are copied by the wanna-bees and soon the local open shows look the same. I give lessons the old fashioned way with dressage as the foundation – riders and horses have to be straight, relaxed, happy, willing, etc. No one pops their horse in the mouth without getting an earful and no one crabs down the rail either.
Yeah, you pretty much summed up the things I’ve been seeing since I started going to shows again. Some shows are better, some shows are worse. I will say that I’m seeing a LOT more people at least GLARE at the nasty stuff, if not say anything. But the nasties don’t care. There was one girl who spurred her horse in the warm-up pen and it kicked violently out behind it and came thisclose to another exhibitor’s horse’s hock. She did not so much as apologize. Hello, manners? Anyone? MOST people are not like this – MOST people are great about sharing the arena, giving little kids the right of way, etc. But there is always at least one jerk!
Anybody witnessing abuse and not taking steps to put a stop to it? What would you call that?
Suggestion: put the word out at shows that the Fugly spies/moles and stoolies are everywhere, don’t think that jest cuz it’s roun’ midnite that y’all are gonna skate.
At Oregon Horse Center National Trail Championships a couple of years ago in Eugene OR, really nassssssty evil oldlady with a really SERIOUSLY abused pinto was competing. Not only did over 30 exhibitors complain about her to show management including what she was doing not only to her horse but being super nasty to other exhibitors and extremely rude to show staff, but she was caught by the steward on the closed course at the show after hours. Though she was read the riot act they did not kick her skinny arse off the show grounds which they should have done. She went and got herself a trainer, a really good guy. Unfortunately this really good guy does not have the cojones to stand up to The Elderly Mrs. Gotrocks because she keeps ruining horses then getting rid of or killing them and going out and spending beaucoup bux on the next fourlegged victim and of course putting them in training with Mr. Fawn and Flatter. She still goes to the trail competitions and when she thinks no one is looking savagely seesaws her horse’s mouth while digging in the rowels – then complains loudly to anyone who will listen how bad her horse is.
So tell me, Fugs and other exhibitors, and show management types, why are most people so willing to put up with this kindo shenanigans? Or other word also starting with SH???
I don’t know. I mean, Cleve Wells still has clients.
Overall, I think people believe you have to do this to win. Which, again, is why those with humanely trained horses shouldn’t simply say, yuck, I’m not going to show. We should go out there and win, which over time will convince people that you can win via humane methods. There is no argument as strong as success!
The Classic Crab Crawl. The worst one I have ever seen was over ten years ago in delaware at a quarter horse show with a horse that I think was physically unable to canter straight anymore. The judge even asked us to move out at the canter and this poor creature was four beating and hopping and moving to the best of its ability but it was painful looking. What made it worst was that this horse was huge and thin, his ears and tail had been done and his head was real long and skinny with a long thin stripe so he looked like a brontosaurus doing the crab shuffle down the rail. After the third or fourth class I do believe the judges DQed them and asked them not to come back to the ring. But I think its cause they couldnt read the numbers on their sides when they loped, LOL. One of those horses I wonder what ever happened to them?
The minty pony is a great happy ending! So nice that he found him a boy to love and keep him fat and happy!
Hope the pony getting kicked manages a good blow in the near future.
One thing I really like about the Buckskin and Pinto shows I have been to recently is that they are asking for extended gaits in the WP and HUS. Are they doing that in AQHA now, too? It’s nice to see horses have to extend the jog, or hand gallop!
I board at a place where the owners have a horse for their kid. The kid is a decent rider, but I’ve seen her take just a drastic change towards the dark side. Why, might you ask?
The parents don’t really know much about horses. They let a friend of the family “train” the SUPER awesome mare for the kid, and I just want to slap this girl. She is always screaming and growling and swearing at this mare. Mare rides in a bosal which the owners think is so gentle…. but when you’ve got a bratty asshole riding the horse and yanking the shit out of its face while spurring its sides and wondering why the horse doesn’t pick up its leads….. It makes ME want to scream.
That horse is such a saint, gorgeous fine boned QH with a really willowy look to her. I wouldn’t be surprised if the horse reared on this chick, she’s terrible. I’ve never seen her ride and actually *train* any horse. That, and the kid (who is like 10) sits there and watches all of the “training sessions”, and now had a ton of horrible manners around animals.
You bet. They learn it from the trainer and then they are out there yanking and cranking. When I see a 6 year old yanking and cranking, I know it is merely imitation. Sad.
I board at a WP barn, and I see the kids get really pissy and domineering with their horses for no good reason, even when training for showmanship.
Like trainers’ using wacky training forks & other gadgets, and riding with their hands all up in the air like Dame Edna serving High Tea, I think it makes them think that they are “TRAINING” their horses when they act all tough.
*sigh*
Oh yeah. Shank, shank, shank, shank. Just stooooop. I do think you’re right on with your analysis of why they do it.
I’m old school so all of this is just baloney to me. Popping, yanking, haunches in…and they even PLACE these things?? Heck I’d place the riders doing it right and withhold the rest of the ribbons. This sounds like some of the kids I used to ride with who always wanted shortcuts instead of putting in the work, grew up and became judges! DAMN this is what I am going to bring MY CHILD into?? No Way. I will drive her and myself down to Georgia and find my old riding master and make sure its done right. Sheesh….thats pathetic.
The best way to straighten out a horse and rider with the haunch problem would be making them work hills. Ya kinda have to go straight with impulsion in order to go up the hill. It teaches the rider better feel (while staying off the mouth) and gives the horse better rear end conditioning. So much can be accomplished outside of the ring to help what a rider does In the ring. Sometimes I think that a ring is a crutch. A friend is a gold medal winning grand prix rider and I have to say, I have never seen her ride a horse outside of a ring. While she is a technically brilliant rider, there are some serious holes in her education. Maybe thats the difference between being a horsewoman and being a rider?
There is NOTHING funner than galloping a horse up a hill!!!
Galloping DOWN the hill is another matter.
I used to work hills ALL the time – actually had a judge tell me in a HUS class that my healthy, happy horse was “too fit.” Not skinny, no, just… too fit.
Well, that’s just stupid. But then I once had an (AQHA!) judge tell me my horse was the wrong color for hunt seat. He was a dark bay with 4 socks and a blaze. Huh?
HA – he’d obviously never been to a hunter show!
Really, how the hell do some judges get their cards?!!?
That’s crap. I know a huge awesome buckskin QH (kinda like yours) and the owner is always being told that her horse is the wrong color to win. WTF? Really? A buckskin that goes into a class and outperforms all other horses in the class won’t place because of his color?! Ugh it makes me sick.
A very long time ago (now am 60) as a little kid and a teenager, I showed Western Pleasure. The lope was supposed to be a gentle canter forward–not a gait where the horse barely shuffled his front in a 3-beat and the back in a 2-beat. It was supposed to be discernible that the horse was cantering and, honestly, it was comfortable and fun to ride. I was shocked to see Western Pleasure in the 90′s where the lope had become this very weird gait.
I think most of the disciplines are guilty of the sidways horse. Lower level hunters shows were rife with bad, crooked riding–these poor horses hardly ever saw the jumps until they were right on top of them.
The basic of dressage–forward and straight–are applicable to all kinds of riding. The hardest thing I had when I was teaching new eventers (& former hunt seat riders) was to straighten their horses, inside leg to outside hand, while encouraging forward motion. It was exciting to see when a student “got it” and understood the beauty of allowing the horse self-carriage instead of trying to put them in a “frame.”
Basics, basics, basics–it can hardly be repeated enough times. All the good stuff (the goosebump kind of feelings) comes from learning them, knowing them, and using them as a life practice.
Liz
That sideways thing is a perversion of haunches in. All of my horses learn haunches in to engage the outside hind leg, which helps with getting the correct lead as well as teaching collection. They also only give the haunches in when asked, straighten when asked, and bend throughout the body. I have a terrible time teaching correct canter transitions to amateurs who have previously been taught the “turn his head to the rail” method. That is a huge pet peeve of mine. Why do you want to create an opening for the horse to drop his inside shoulder, lose your bridle, and start out discombobulated and crooked for the first stride of canter?? I see LOTS of it, though.
’cause it’s the easy way to throw them onto the correct lead
I was taught that first. So were most people. Hopefully at some point you learn to use your seat bones and legs to set the horse up for his leads, but you know that does require lessons and a lot of people seem to have an aversion to them.
Interesting…because I was never taught that way of throwing onto the lead. Is it a western thing? I was taught to turn the head in very slightly on a horse that doesn’t get the lead off of just seat and legs. Not a lot. Just a bit of a feel on the inside rein. I suppose it has to do with the contact versus no contact differential.
First of all, congrats on getting a blue with your boy! I admit I really want to see a video of him going sometime, because I have a feeling he’s been trained right, which is so rare.
The kick in the belly– Karma will get her. I still remember a certain trainer who likes to gut kick his horses (among other things) being bucked off in the makeup arena at Congress. The other trainers applauded. I think there were offers to buy the horse, although that part might be rumor.
The stout mare might be stout, but since switching to gaited horses and having a gelding with serious bone, it’s hard to view my halter mare with anything but a jaundiced eye. When you put a 1,500 lb body on a horse, you darn well better have at least 1′s for feet.
There is nothing better than seeing a show horse who loves his or her job. I’m a big proponent of spending the extra ‘wasted’ time at shows just getting young horses to decide that this is a cool and fun thing to do. It helps the kids too
. I’ve had students who cried during every lesson before I started training them. Some cried at shows. Whether it’s the kids or the horses, I think if you can’t make showing a fun and confidence building experience, you might as well stay home and clean tack.
As for the sideways canter, the only thing I’ll add that you didn’t mention is that a very simple way to fix such movement or prevent it is to quit riding in an arena, in circles. A horse can easily slide its hips to the inside when it knows where ‘inside’ is. If you work more straight lines and more serpentines (yes, even at a canter) it helps eliminate the horse’s assumption that you are always going ‘that way’. I also think that you are wrong in one sense. I firmly believe that some horses just aren’t made to go that slow. I don’t care if you spent ten years training a horse to go slow and collected. Some horses are not built or mentally able to do the quarter horse lope. I’m not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing. Just that it’s a fact that there are far too many ‘prospects’ being trained by trainers who should be able to put three rides on the horse and then tell the owner honestly that the horse isn’t built for what the owners are paying to achieve. Western pleasure is grueling and physically challenging to horses. Just as the best trainer in the world can’t make a straight shouldered steep crouped ewe necked TB into a grand prix dressage horse (an exaggeration), I also believe that a trainer can’t take just any horse and win with them in pleasure. My son isn’t fast enough to be a runningback in the NFL, and all the summer camps in the world won’t change that. The problems we see in Western Pleasure and every other discipline will lessen when people quit trying to create perfection from material that simply isn’t suitable for the job.
I do need to get video. I bought a camera and lost the battery in my car … because I’m smart like that.
This particular show was so dark I couldn’t even get stills. It was raining outside most of the time and we were indoors.
My quarter horse was a perfect example of what you are saying: her first owner tried to make her a WP horse, but her gaits were just too big and round. When I got her, age 5, she showed off those gaits her first day in the paddock, and my BO/instructor, who thought I was coming back from the QH outfit with some clunker, watched this for a while, and said, “Well … we are going to have to do dressage with this horse!” She (my BO/I) was big in Canadian dressage, and once turned up at the Nationals with an appaloosa – and won the Medium over a bunch of expensive warmbloods! (Eyebrows went into orbit.) Long story short, my horse collected a wallful of ribbons and rosettes, and a couple of trophies too, over the next few years. She was also great on the trail, and pretty into the bargain. With nice big feet!
A-men.
Creating a horse for a discipline starts when you look at the mare and pick out the stallion. You can’t turn a horse that is bred and built to do one thing into an expert at another.
Exactly. Unfortunately a lot of people spend a lot of time stuffing square pegs into round holes. But hey, why are we surprised – they do it with their kids, too!
How’s this for a great deal? An untrained four y/o with a big manure stain!
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1449705
But wait — willing to trade for a broke to death trail horse or a warmblood mare! (no draft crosses, please.)
What a steal!
(snork)
Yeah, videos gone. Funny, I tried to find any other video by this ‘trainer’ and was unable. I did, however, see a video of a Ferisian WP class – about as funny as my spelling! But who cares??? They looked happy.
About dressage fixing most problems ~ used to work polo and I taught all those guys training level dressage. My boss actually noticed the horses were different. “They must like the grass here.” “Yeah”, I thought. “It’s so much different from the previous 2 years they were here on the grass.”
As for the sidewinder, there is a riding club in the area here where these guys place well. I’m talking noses OVER the rail! Eeeewwwww. And the poor parents using these trainers think their kids can ride because they place well.
Gawd if that stallion supposedly has BIG feet, i’d sure hate to see one with small!!!!
Here you go:
http://fuglyblog.com/?p=14
Small feet and a positively ridiculously exaggerated hind end.
Look, an AQHA halter horse is never going to look like, say, a cutting horse. I am happy if they have a good shoulder angle, good pastern angle, aren’t back at the knee and have hooves that are a reasonable size. The cremello horse has all of those qualities.
and he’s HYPP N/N!!!
i like him. he looks like real horse, albeit it a rather over-muscled tending-toward-fat horse
Not only do these kids learn to yank and spur as they ride, but it they have to do it while they are standing waiting to go in a class. I watched a teenage girl literally continually yank at her horses face for 10 minutes while standing outside the ring waiting for her class. Is there some reason that your horse just standing quietly waiting isn’t good enough?? Does she need to be looking at her toes the whole day??? Of course the poor mare was bitted up in a huge spade of some kind as well. Then once in the class the same rider had a tantrum because the mare didn’t want to go forward – it went sideways, backways and noways(kind of the the Wonkavator in Willie Wonka)…….imagine. Being part of the show committee, after the 3rd round of this, we asked her to put her horse away and refunded her money. The judge was not using her, and was not going to use her. She wasn’t happy with us, but at least she heard someone telling her this was not the way to ride.
That’s AWESOME.
I do love it when the judges won’t use someone like that and I do see it is happening more and more! Although I notice it happens more often at the breed shows where the judges are from out of state. Open shows, ha, forget it. Everybody is facebook friends with everybody else and no one wants to make anyone local mad at them.
I still think that stallion has a goose rump and a fugly hip, and his mane in the second pic is photoshopped!
Grrrr, if they are going to allow that stupid loping in the show ring (my horses can WALK faster), then they’d better change the name from western PLEASURE, to western riding without a purpose! It was my opinion that a pleasure class was to show off a horse that was a pleasure to ride – with 3 forward moving, collected gaits, and a solid stop and light to back up. I show Trail, W/T, and WP on my gelding, Mi Amigo Lucky ( http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mi+amigo+lucky) in a very (very) small show association. We do pretty well (considering 2 ppl is a large class) but it just seems to be more and more of a “see who’s horse can go slowest with his head the lowest” competition. Oh well, it’s points. :p
I bought Amigo in his three y/o year, he’d had 60 (or maybe 90) days on him. It took me until now to get his leads down. Flying lead changes will likely take another year. Amigo now takes the correct lead 9 times out of 10 with just pressure from the outside leg. If he takes the incorrect lead I will come back to the trot and add a touch of pressure to the outside rein. He has pretty bad impulsion, we’re working on that (slowly).
Oh yeah, and “troping” – thanks for the word. I didn’t know what to call it when a horse appears to be trotting with two legs and loping with the others. Cheaters. They are supposed to be loping.
And I also compete in Extreme Cowboy Racing with my gelding. He’s a great trail horse too. I’d be bored stiff if the only thing he could do was WP. WP ought to be something every horse can do, not something only a few (poorly trained and pooly moving) horses excell at.
The extreme cowboy racing is SO cool.
I saw it a few months ago and boy, most of those people were excellent riders. Some needed a few jumping lessons, but most had no problem galloping bareback.
That cremello Yella looks hairless. Creepy, just with that. Do they apply sunscreen every day?
And the hoof black on those white hooves – yeah, they’re hiding something there.
*shudders*
Actually, everybody does hoof black for halter so that’s standard. I don’t like the look of cremellos myself but they’re genetically desirable if you want palominos, buckskins, etc. so it is nice to see one that does not look like this:
Actually that one may be ugly but he’s a useful looking animal, unlike the creepy side of beef halter horse. It looks like it’s bred for meat. And his pasterns are just so-so, they are still upright.
I’m also creeped out by the big wide halter horses with the tiny feet. I mean, if they have that much meat on them and their feet are too small for any useful riding sport, what does that make them? Dinner in Belgium?
That’s exactly what it makes them.
The Levels of training as taught to me,
Forwards
Contact
Balance
Impulsion
Straightness
Collection
Personally I would swap the straightness to before the impulsion but notice the first one? before even accepting a contact? FORWARDS.
Man I wish that would get through and to be honest even in so called dressage training you see people trying to achieve an outline before their youngster is comfortable going forwards under their weight or balanced on a circle.
And I could put videos up all day of people on 30 days or less broke horses, ALREADY interfering with “FORWARD” in a million ways.
Wow the Video’s were pulled already. I’m same as a few others here, haven’t watched a WP class in years, so I checked out the link someone had to the world show. Holy crap, if my horse moved like that I’d be looking for the injury, and calling the vet. How can anyone think that is nice let alone OK to ‘train’ a horse to do it, it sure as heck is not natural, they don’t even move like horses. Totally stupid looking as far as I am concerned. My 4 year old barrel horse moves just nice in a straight line, unless I am doing bending exercises…..think I’lll stick with that.
I read with interest the comment about leg length and sitting crooked as a result, I have had several horses that seem to tend to drift to one side unless I am thinking about it and pay attention to where we are going, i.e. when just going down the road or on a trail…..now I am thinking that may be why, this site is great, always finding something new to think about.
I never really believed my horse was tracking with his butt to the inside until I saw it on video. (I think I secretly believed the trainer was making it up! Ha!) I have worked this past year on riding him shoulder fore by keeping a strong outside rein and using my inside leg to keep him straight. Gee, my legs suddenly were tired after riding! While I would prefer to ride around just letting my legs dangle because I’m lazy, I like the results better when I get the legs engaged! Thanks for the post.
It’s a hard habit to fix once they’ve learned to do it, isn’t it? Hey, kudos to your trainer for wanting to fix it! Five gold stars!
No time to read everything – but a few comments….
1) That Yella As I Wannabe horse is UUUUUUGly. Even if he were a fabulously glowing buckskin. He stands so NARROW in front, and his fetlocks? I hope they’ve been ‘shopped. Worst of all he has that tail-sliding-off-the-ass look I hate so much in halter horses. Well, any horse for that matter. His head and neck appear to have come from a PONY. I wish the stock horse people would just chuck the neck sweats…..
2) Congrats on your win!! Too bad judges in the Midwest are still rewarding the sideways troping peanut rollers…. I’ll be working at an open show this weekend and shudder to think what the judges will do. They’re both Paint people IIRC. But until they start holding hunter or dressage shows less than an hour away from me, it’s what I can do for now.
3) Extreme Cowboy Race is to “Trail” what Hunters, Outside Course is to AQHA HUS.
Wow, you are blinded by those hulking halter horse types aren’t you? What is so terrible about this horse, except he isn’t 1500lbs of bulky, useless muscle? He’s got a good sloping shoulder, a good wither, deep in the girth, long slender neck and a hip that looks like a race horse. Obviously, you cannot see his lower front legs very well and he is standing wonky. But he looks young and will probably fill out even more as he matures. Way more people would get some use out of this horse than they ever would out of that cremello halter monstrosity.
Actually, I think the one I posted is horrible. He looks crooked-legged as hell, he has a humongous head and an ugly neck.
The halter horse may not be your cup of tea, but I have no problem with a QUALITY one that has good feet and does not have the upright pasterns that lead to unsoundness. I will bet money that cremello I posted as a good example would ride. I don’t know if they are riding him, but you could. He’s certainly correct enough to. My gripe isn’t with the halter horse type, per se, it’s with ignoring flaws that lead to unsoundness and early breakdowns and the inability to ride after the halter career is finished. I think the halter horse type WHEN NOT HYPER-EXAGGERATED, is pretty.
And of course, everybody’s entitled to their own opinion, but I know which of those 2 horses is more likely to have a safe home for a lifetime and get all of the care he needs.
Impossible to tell from that picture as to whether the racy cremello is crooked legged or not. He may be a bit long from eye to muzzle, but I would hardly call that a huge head. You do know that they have linked all kinds of behavioral and dental problems to horses with those little tiny heads and muzzles right?
And no, there is no way of knowing which horse will have a forever home. Isn’t your blog proof of that?
I guess the proof is actually that NO ONE who commented liked the cremello halter horse. What does that tell ya?
That not a lot of halter horse people read this blog, probably because I am eternally bashing so many of them for breeding N/H horses.
fasthorsesrule: i said i liked the cremello halter stallion. so there
and i’m a tb girl, so i don’t usually do these bulky jobs.
there’s nothing wrong with liking a big head or a small head, and honestly it doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference (unless u showing) so why get all wound up over someone elses opinion.
Unfortunately, there are good and bad training methods in every discipline. There’s rollkur in dressage (and other disciplines, but mostly debated pertaining to dressage) nasty tacks-in-splint-boots methods to get horses to pick their feet up higher in jumping, excessive use of spurs and popping the horse’s mouth in western… just to name a few abusive techniques… and harsh bits in every discipline from eventing to trail riding.
I’m really glad to learn that AQHA is cracking down (finally? Dunno, haven’t been there to see) on some of the bad training methods in western riding. It’s like anything, people want to make money, as much as possible and with the least possible output of effort. So if some training technique might be bad for the horse but will effectively allow a few trainers who don’t give a damn about the animals to win in the arena and make them able to get a higher fee from more clients, then that’s what some trainers will do. Here in France, I see lesson kids riding dressage tests with gogues on their horses… this is a touchy subject, I know, but my thinking is if you need a gogue, then either the horse or the rider or the horse and the rider are NOT ready to be riding a dressage test, and need to work on basics, basics, basics.
And if you’d like to have a little laugh about a generalisation I found rather funny, I’m preparing to take the “galop” tests to have the licence required to show at a certain level here (in France, there’s a diploma for everything, and if you don’t have it, you’re out of luck!). There are 9 tests in all (you need galop 7 to show amateur), galop 1 being for beginner beginners, galop 9 for, theoretically, trainers. The bit for galop 1 that describes different kinds of riding, says of western riding (translation just underneath, but I’m putting it in French in case there are French readers out there):
“L’équitation western est l’héritière d’une tradition propre aux cow-boys, c’est-à -dire aux gardiens de troupeaux. C’est une équitation de travail destinée à l’élevage extensif, au gardiennage et aux déplacements du bétail dans l’ouest américain. On recherche à rendre le cheval disponible pour des actions rapides et précises dans le temps, le plus longtemps possible. Cette pratique nécessite une éducation du poulain dès sa naissance. *Le bien être du cheval domine toutes les autres considérations.*” (Le mémento de l’équitation galops 1 à 7. Chez Amphora.)
=> Western riding is the legacy of the traditions of cowboys, ie herd guardians. This riding is for work, developped for extensive livestock breeding, for guarding the herd, as well as moving the herd from place to place in the western part of America. The idea is to make the horse available for rapid, precise actions, for as long as possible. This practice necessitates the training of the foal right from his birth. *The horse’s well-being dominates all other considerations.*
*sigh* At least the French have a very positive view of western riding (“équitation américaine”)
“The horse’s well-being dominates all other considerations.”
I wish!
That was my thought, exactly! I also kind of thought it insulting to other disciplines to imply that only in western riding would the horse’s well being be so highly considered… Of course, it should be the utmost consideration in all disciplines.
Years ago, when I was eventing, I boarded at a barn which was also a QH breeding facility. The breeders had a trainer that mostly did cutting/reining. A pleasure/trail trainer also shared barn space. Nice guy (sincerely!). One day, one of his students was riding in the arena in a bosal and jerking at her horse’s head. Trainer was cleaning a saddle, looked up, saw her give the horse a jerk and was all over her to stop it. A few minutes later, she whined “When are we going to put this horse in a BIT!” Trainer didn’t even look up from his saddle-cleaning task and just growled, “When YOU learn to RIDE properly.”
I showed WP back in the day when the approved fashion was “California-style:” Horse “up” in the bridle, arched neck, slack in the reins, braided rawhide w/or w/o silver, romel (so hand on thigh, not clutched in mid-air which looks RIDICULOUS). Never understood how this split-rein, paralyzed jog, crab-ope came into fashion. In my day (we slogged through snow to school for 10 miles……), the ideal was a FAST walk, a true diagonal but slow jog (y’know – like you were GOING somewhere, but comfortably) and a low (but 3-beat) lope. And the damned horse better be STRAIGHT. Sigh. Does Don Burt still judge? I doubt he’d go for the modern version of the WP horse.
As a primarily dressage person now (former eventer, some H/J), of course straightness is demanded. And how do you teach straightness? But teaching PROPER bend, by teaching shoulder-in. If you ride shoulder-in properly, true straighteness becomes obvious, and the engagement it produces improves the trot. But of course, when I showed my big moving youngster in-hand in front of a cowboy-hatted judge in “English halter,” he placed 2nd (out of 2) to a downhill, creep-jogging Quarter horse type who looked about as much like an English horse as Poco Bueno.
There is NOTHING prettier than a finely tuned California-style bridle horse, like an old-school Arab or Morgan, floating down the rail. Braided romal reins are so pretty, too……
Not like the overbent snaky neck stiff weird things in the Arab Western classes of today. Dudes, if you want a Quarter Horse, just get a damn Quarter Horse already and quit trying to make your Arab move like one!!!!
Ugh… I know exactly what you mean.
A friend and I went to March to the Arch in St. Louis this year, it was really my first “big” pleasure show. She’s a huge western pleasure junky, loves it – which is no problem! A well trained western pleasure horse is poetry in motion to watch. It’s the fact that there are sooo many incorrectly trained ones.
We stayed their for a couple days and my friend likes to drop herself by the warm-up ring and watch peoples techniques. I was appalled and what made it worse is the fact that that was the norm! She saw no harm in these horses who were doing nothing wrong in the aspect where they needed and sort of correction, go around the ring at a headbobbing, over-canted, over-flexed, hind end trailing lope! It made me furious!! The thing that could not understand is how people were so blind, I mean – in my personal opinion if you’re going to have a good show horse, you’re horse must be happy and eager to do it’s job. It’s just common sense that if they’re happy, they’re going to preform better. But in that warm up ring, all I saw were horses in forms of rollkur, eyes either wide with fear or dim with defeat. It’s not hard to see if people would just open their eyes.
I saw maybe a handful of rider and horse partners that actually had three pure gaits at that show. You know, the nice, free flowing walk, a two beat (not four as per contrary belief!) trot where the horse is rocked back on it’s hind end, actually working under itself – what an idea! Then the lope, oh the lope… You covered most all of it in your post, but the thing that I just want to scream at is when a horse bobs its head really drastically like that is because it is ridiculously on the forehand!!! Gahhhh! It had to use it’s neck and head to throw it’s front end up so it can have a split second of suspension, where as a horse actually collect will use power in it’s hindend to push, leaving the shoulders free. It’s just, come on… You guys are at the top of the sport, do you not even try and learn, or for that matter, care why your horse has the vices! You don’t just sit there and treat the wound, you take the thorn out and fix the underlying problem!
Ok. I’m done now.
“A well trained western pleasure horse is poetry in motion to watch. It’s the fact that there are sooo many incorrectly trained ones.”
My sentiments EXACTLY.
And yes, I do know how hard it is to find a trainer who’ll do it right. I got lucky. But like I say – go watch the warm-up pen. If I hadn’t known a thing about anyone I was watching this weekend, I would absolutely have picked my trainer out as the person to give my money to by watching her ride my horse. And he had his moments this weekend where he needed to be corrected. But it was the way it was done – you had to watch carefully to even see the corrections. I remember being a little kid and being told that you don’t see a good rider apply the aids. It is so subtle that it looks like magic that the horse is doing all of these things.
Well… seeing that the videos have been removed tells me that the person that put the videos there knew that the horses moved badly too! The AQHA breed shows are nothing but deformed horses that have been genetically manipulated to move so no talent riders can show! really sad :-[
I just went to a zone show in my area. The horse that won the championship western class NEVER NOT ONCE did a two beat jog. He just walked a little faster. Of coarse if I had some one jerk and spur me I probably would look half dead too. I had not been to a zone show in years for just this reason but have students that were interested so thought I would check one out. Sorry to say nothing has changed. I had hoped when AQHA changed their rules that the other shows would follow along. Guess not. I left after a couple of classes. I cried for that poor horse. Very nice paint that I am sure did nothing to deserve being treated that way. I will not show in a show that condones this type of training.
I think it is all over the map right now and it just depends who is judging. I see SOME judges place the better movers, even if they are faster. But then you see others that still reward the wogging, troping, etc.
I have to admit I have changed my thinking on headset after owning a QH that is naturally low set…now I know it didn’t require any abuse to put him there. That is where he naturally likes to carry his head. He really does lope like that in the pasture. Sure, if he’s excited or we’re out with cows or doing something new, he is going to bring it up and he’s allowed to, but going around the arena, he really does want to carry it low.
Yeah. A few months back my BO acquired a little pony-sized Paint…who is shaping up into a fantastic trail horse and is just great with the beginners, but back then he was hideously crooked…his hindquarters would go anywhere but where they were supposed to. Not taught to go like that, he just hadn’t been taught to go straight yet. So I was trying to get the wandering hindquarters under control, and was riding him fairly strongly inside leg to outside hand…and his head went down, his nose went down, his neck level and his trot smoothed out. I remember yelling across to my instructor ‘Check this out, we have a pleasure horse’. That is his natural self-carriage under saddle…and is perfect for a beginner horse, IMO, much better than a horse that wants to come up into you and generate tons of impulsion. And yeah, he likes to go slowly too…sometimes too slowly (He’s a bit on the lazy side). But if I did the same amount of inside leg to outside hand, the *exact* same aids on the nearly 16h hunter type Paint we have…hey presto, dressage frame. If you do inside leg to outside hand correctly and analyze what you get, you can tell right from that what direction to take a horse.
Goes back to, again, you start when you put the mare to the stallion, trying to get a horse the right shape for what you want. Why is this rocket science?
I once worked for a fairly nice eventing/hunter barn near where I went to college. I left after a week… the crap I saw made me decide I was happier working with people I knew and my own horses. The “trainer” had a temper and then some. Once watched a horse act up in the arena, nothing major…just young horse ” I don’t wanna” stuff. She went over board correcting him (screaming, beating, and kicking all while jerking the reins back as hard as she could), then dragged him into the aisle and put him in cross ties and hit him repeatedly in the head with a whip. I was done at that moment. I got my stuff, told the manager that I wasn’t going to work with that kind of abuse and left. The manager seemed pissed and I really regret not following up on what happened.
You should google her and see if she is still in business. There is a blog for her:
http://horsetrainersfromhell.blogspot.com
People need to be warned, otherwise they have no way of knowing.
Just checked and looks like she is no longer there. They have another trainer there now that must have come shortly after I left…lol. I will see if I can remember/find out the other ladies name and see if she is still in business. Like I said, the barn was great and most the people there were pretty cool… a few snobs, but that happens everywhere.
Hey there!
The phrase in this post,
“He may be low-headed but his entire body is stiff as he waits for the next pop on his face, the next dig with the spurs.”
has been nominated for That’s-what-she-said of the month on imtellingyourmom.blogspot.com!
Actually, this whole site is pretty suspect. Keep up the good work!
Quick question!
Many times when I ask my horse to canter, he gets his front and hind end going on different leads. This ends up being an awkward ride, so I have to bring him back to a trot, and ask again from a steady trot. He is a tall narrow thoroughbred rescue, 7 years old. Any tips on getting him to always start on the right lead? My trainer just has me bring him to a trot and get him settled down at a trot before asking again.
Oh, I HATE that.
Make sure he is set up for the correct lead. Asking on a corner can help. Feeling the inside rein *very* slightly helps some horses. Others are helped by being pushed off the inside leg. Move the outside leg back a little. All of that can help.
If he has the habit of randomly changing in the middle of the canter, I’ve found that keeping the outside leg about an inch or so back and just LIGHTLY in contact with his sides and the inside leg a little more firmly on seems to work with a horse I know that does that trick.
Also, if horses randomly swap leads behind, I have found that about 95% of the time, their hocks or back hurt. Get a vet check.
What she said. Adding to it, my gelding is bad about getting his leads front and back. He is also very weak in the back. I’ve noticed he is improving as I do more forward walking and more balanced trotting to build his back and stomach muscles, and as I let him move forward on a VERY very gentle curve while cantering. He’s learned that if he gets it wrong, he can break down to a long trot and get himself together.
I am not a trainer and I don’t play one on TV (:o) However, I know this problem (well. Too well) and maybe I can help. The movement is called cross-cantering. Your horse may not be aware that he HAS four corners (or two sets of legs) but the way to ask for a canter on the correct lead is to do a posting trot, then sit and when the horse’s outside shoulder is on the ground (or back), cue with the outside leg. In other words, you would cue for the canter when you would be doing the sitting portion of the rising trot. The posting rule is “Rise and fall with the side to the wall,” so when the outside (wall-side) shoulder is on the ground (and you would be sitting), cue for the canter then.
The horse’s outside hind leg is the first leg to move in the three-stride canter movement (outside hind, inside hind and outside fore, then inside fore) and if you cue when the outside shoulder is on the ground at the trot, you “catch” the outside hind just as it is coming off the ground and is ready to strike off. I cue with my outside leg behind the girth, inside leg at the girth to “support” the horse.
Now, if that doesn’t work , your horse may have sore hocks. If he cross-canters at liberty or on the lunge line, have your vet check him.
And you’re right. It is VERY uncomfortable.
At the barn I ride at one of the horses has a REALLY exaggerated haunches in canter especially to the right. He’s also a little head shy and lolls his tongue and has foundered in the past. He’s one of those quarter horses that look more like a thoroughbred with horrible feet. Oh yeah, he doesn’t really jump either. He’s been vet checked and he’s just fine, but we’ve always known he was trained really badly in the past.
Otherwise he’s a generally nice horse on the flat. He knows his leads, does flying changes, not that anyone has asked him in a while, knows his voice commands and even though he takes time off because he isn’t the most desirable horse in the barn and he’s sometimes lame, whenever he gets back, he is always the same horse to ride. We tend to use him for beginner w/t/c or with students that know what they’re doing, but are afraid to jump.
Anyway, this entry has opened my eyes to just how he could have been trained. Wow. I just have a few questions: What is the practical purpose for cantering at the same speed as your trot? I mean, horse shows are based on things that are practical for your horse to do and are things that they were traditionally used for. Ex, Jumping, trail classes, even dressage has a practical purpose (it was developed as exercises for military horses to practice discipline). What in the world do you need a horse that looks like it’s stumbling while cantering for? I really do not get it! I come from a hunter/jumper/eq barn and if I tried to canter that slow in a lesson my instructor would think I was on drugs! I had to look twice at the horses that were “trotting”. True, they were technically trotting, but why would you not ask a horse to track properly? How would they ever loosen up enough to give a fluid canter? Oh yeah, I forgot they never canter properley. These horses look like they have a decent conformation, but no one ever gets to see them go! How exactly are you judging the horse? A horses success in the show ring should be determined by natural talent and quality training, and how exactly are either showcased when your goal is to go comically and unnaturally slow? It’s like putting the Mona Lisa in your basement!
COMPLETELY off topic, but this one has really got my blood boiling.
Someone apparently tried to tattoo over JC tattoos of some TBs dumped with a kill buyer. These people disgust me!
http://www.auctionhorses.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=auctionhorses&thread=1688&page=1
Yes. I believe 2 are ID’d for sure and 2 more we probably know who they are. Asshats.
Isn’t it illegal to tamper with livestock tattoos?
I’m lucky, I’ve a got great hunter/dressage trainer here in TN. I’ve worked REALLY hard on getting my ex-polo pony, noodle-like TB mare w/ ‘tude to go forward and straight
When we get it right and she’s in front of my leg, there is no better feeling 
I’m hoping to show this summer just for fun and maybe do some A shows next year.
Oh man, I am totally fighting the crooked thing right now. Getting this horse to travel on a straight line is the hardest thing I’ve ever done – he can get it for a stride or two but then one leg goes one way, the head and neck twist, and the shoulders go the other way – so frustrating! After spending so much time just to get five strides of walk on a straight line, I can’t imagine training purposely for crooked.
Try using a dressage whip…not hitting him with it, but when his quarters wander, pressing it *against* his flank. It gives you an aid further back than your leg can go. As a short term training aid, it might help.
haha, I ride with two actually, one in each hand. We’re getting there and he’s getting better, it’s just largely a strength thing.
This makes me think of people getting embarrassed at shows when they deserve it. Our farm was at Equine Affaire OH this past April, and a horse stabled on the row behind us apparently made a veeeerrrryyy annoying habit of kicking his buckets and walls repeatedly. This was annoying because every time he banged on the wall, his (loud and obnoxious) lady owner would scream “SHUT UP!” at him. And of course, five seconds later, he’d bang again. Because, as y’all know, screaming at a horse is really effective *eye roll*.
By the third day of EA, everyone in ear shot was sick of this. I thought it was pretty obvious the horse did this to get her attention, because everytime they started up the banging and screaming match, it just kept being that. After another round of the noise, the owner screamed “Shut UP, YOU (insert colorful descriptive word here)!”
Someone an aisle or two over bellowed back, “No, BOTH of you shut up! Ignore him or get a kick chain!” The stall kicker’s aisle got quiet reaaaaally fast. The next time the horse started back up, there was no response from the humiliated owner and *gasp* the HORSE STOPPED after a few knocks! (doh!)
I went looking for the person who had hollered like a bull at them to thank them, but no one knew who it was. Needless to say, we all had a pretty good snickering over that. I’m no advocate of yelling matches, but I guess that’s what was needed for that situation…
Hooray to the horse who has his own little adoring boy! I teared up at that too!
Oh, man, that’s awesome about the person who hollered back.
I know how much you guys luuuuuuve the foundation breeders, but I dare anyone to find a video of a horse at a foundation show moving like that and placing. These videos showcase one of the reasons the foundation quarterhorse movement has legs.
Yeah but so many of those just move BADLY!
I want the alternative – a pretty, sweepy mover that isn’t cranked down to where they are going sideways and hopping. It does exist.
Look what I found! It’s another Yella Fella stallion.
What do you think, Fugs?
http://www.foundationsequine.com/index.html
I think it is funny how his feet are shopped to look SMALLER in some of the pro pics, and if you look at him in the turn-out, they are FINE!
But again, as always, glad they are standing a N/N halter stallion. They DO exist and horses like this are PROOF you can get the bulk without the disease.
Its not that hard to teach your horse straightness-the best test I found is riding your horse on the second track (1m or so from the rail) and seeing how well he stays there doing all your school figures like circles and serpentines and changes of diagonal. Its the best exercise to teach your horse not to use the rail as a crutch. and it teaches you to use your outside hand and your legs to define his position.
I just had another thought on this topic. Back in England I rode several green 4 year olds with, oh, thirty days under saddle on them if that…and every single one of them was perfectly straight.
What did they have in common? Every single one of them was from traveler lines and had been broken to harness first.
Which led me to think that maybe the epidemic of crooked in America is because not enough people long line/ground drive their youngstock, which is routine in Europe. Long lines give you full control over the hindquarters and you can get straight down before you even get on. Lunging, on the other hand, without a second rein, is more inclined to teach crooked.
Mental note. I need to find somebody to teach me to long line.
Good point. I ground drive and haven’t had that issue, either.
I have had it with OTTB’s that we put into polo but again, that’s because you are doing a quick & dirty career conversion on them and not laying the foundation the way you would with a show horse.
Sorry this is off topic, but someone has stolen a mare from Hays, KS and left her 4 day old foal behind!
http://www.netposse.com/stolenmissing/DianaKSstolenMay2010.html
Thought we could get the word out and maybe find this mare before she ends up in Mexico.
Thanks for posting, I want to put that up as a main thing but I had something so much worse today that I HAD to put up.
Darn…. late arrival…. videos not available anymore.
“There is a difference between collection and slowing down!”
AMEN
Obviously I haven’t seen Western Pleasure classes for some time. When did tails become as big as hulla skirts and cut straight across the bottom? Back in the day you pulled tails, now you can hardly see the horse’s back legs hiding in what looks like a big, thick skirt! Highly strange.
Y’all have fun now, y’hear?
http://www.change.org/petitions/view/shut_down_conklin_dairy_farms_and_arrest_and_charge_gary_conklin_and_his_crew_with_animal_cruelty
Someone posted that it’s uncomfortable to ride a cross canter. Sometimes with the reiners we *counter* canter -ride a circle on the wrong lead. You use your leg to hold the horse on the wrong lead and that way they are looking for you to let them switch leads. It makes them really pay attention to your leg cues but it feels CRAZY to ride. Totally works though. The reining horses have to be dead on with their leads to compete in any reining class. People forget that switching leads is a natural movement for a horse they do it on their own in the fields. Way back when, (when I was into WP 20+ years ago) lead changes seemed like a mystical thing to me -not anymore, not with a reiner!
Two different things though. A cross-canter has the horse on two different leads – front half of the horse is on one lead, back half on the other. The counter canter, which we do all the time for schooling purposes, is deliberately cantering on the wrong lead.
yeah my horse will drop a lead in back from time to time or miss a lead change in back hear and there, ( its usually my fault like when if I don’t cue him strong enough) . I just meant it’s the weirdest feeling ever to hold a horse on the wrong lead….I know, two different things
kinda fun and challenging though!
This post reminded me of this guy. Someone sent this to me and I nearly died for two reasons:
1) Poor horse!!! He’s so patient, he’d make an awesome schooling horse
2) This guy’s nuts must have no feeling or they’re non-existent. Which may be a good thing considering how freaking dumb this guy is to think he rides nicely. He shouldn’t be reproducing, really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opMiCyoRzYM&playnext=1&videos=8fKeH5aL7wc