This is why you can’t keep your show horses sound
Apr 26 2010
From a photo taken at a recent breed show.
Dude.
Seriously.
I don’t care what your trainer or farrier is telling you. There is no way on God’s green earth to keep a horse sound with feet like this. Those angles are more fucked-up than Lindsey Lohan’s complexion, and she looks like a corpse these days.
You are stressing the living hell out of the tendons and the knees. You are creating lameness. It may not have manifested itself yet, but if it has not, it will. Bet on it.
This is a normal hoof with correct angles: (image from the Hoof Recovery blog)
I am not opposed to shoeing. My show horse wears shoes all around. I do not think shoes are the tools of Satan, and I understand that your Saddleseat horse may correctly wear longer toes than my WP/HUS horse. But there are limits!
Again, there is no way in Hell to keep a horse sound with the feet shown at the top. Folks, you gotta educate yourself about this stuff – you are the one paying the vet bills, so at the very least think about that if you can’t think about what is best for your horse!
201 comments to “This is why you can’t keep your show horses sound”
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And I just mentioned corrective shoeing in a previous post. I will say wow because that first set of hooves look like they are at 2 different angles. I am lucky to have a mare that keeps good angles with minimal farrier work. I usually pay $10 every 8 weeks to have her shaped up. As far as my mother in law, she has 5 horses. One does need corrective shoes on the front. We have found Cytek to work wonderfully. It’s $75 every 8-12 weeks. (Depends on the time of year and how fast her feet are growing.) Everyone else is a routine trim every 8 weeks. It’s $25 for a barefoot trim on the other 4. $15 if we use a family friend if we can get him here when he’s not trimming in Ohio.
If you can afford to show, you can afford the $75 to put shoes on the horse every 2 months or so!
Yeah, I’m sure it’s not lack of funds that kept those feet that way. It’s not unusual to see too long toes at wonky angles on saddle seat horses, especially on arabs that can often have dishy feet. I bet the farrier charged quite a lot for that shoe job actually.
I come from a saddle seat background, and though I am more comfortable seeing longer feet, they should be at least as well balanced as shorter feet since it does put more strain on the legs.
Is this horse’s name Daffy Duck?
Also OT. One of the adopters of a filly, now named Sakura, from the Three Strikes Ranch had a terrible fire that took barn and house. My prayers are with them.
I rode at the show and talked to the girl who’s the owner of the horse with those feet.
It really saddens me that people shoe this way and think that its appropriate. And at our shows just about everyone (I would say 95%) shoes in this fashion. This is why 12 is old for a show horse. They aren’t meant to last that long with those feet.
Go to an endurance race and see if one of those horses has feet like that. They are shod correctly or they are pulled.
Whatever happened to natural talent anyway? Is this the only horse left? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9sKBHmuaS0
(He shod with aluminum NBS shoes)
I show A system but I refuse to hop into the shoeing trend. I LOVE my horse, I LOVE riding my horse and I want to keep her until the day she dies which I hope is a long way for now. I know I’d place better with a shoeing system, but I’d much rather ride my horse for longer. Plus the realty is- my horse is well trained and low and behold; I can still win.
All you trainers. Shame on you for saying this is a normal and healthy way to shoe your horse. 16 oz weights, 3 pads and a toe 4 inches too long is NOT healthy. Owners- educate yourself. It will make your horse happy and save you on many vet bills in the future.
Congratulations, you just blew my mind with “This is why 12 is old for a show horse.”
That is the age we now expect a show horse to breakdown at? 12…holy shit. I’d be pissed if one of my horses, or god forbid one of my babies, broke down at 12.
I expect that a horse will be sound until at least 18 without help. And there is no way I would ride a horse with feet like that unless there was a clear and absolute ‘leave them like that’ with cause from a vet. And then I still probably wouldn’t ride it. I do believe that one of the best ads for a horse breeder/trainer is the ability to say “look how good/sound/healthy my old horse is.” I point and say “Look at my 25 yr old show horse and my 21 y/o TB” (‘Course my TB still has enough go to scare the crap out of a lot of riders.)
Futurity winners are nice, but not when you want a horse that can go the distance.
12 is too old for a show horse. Maybe we have found the reason why people are putting kids up on 3 and 4 year olds. My son’s gelding (who is a true fugly 15 hand former ranch/ former rescue horse) was 12 when the kid started riding 3 years ago. And I think BooBoo is worth his weight in gold, and the perfect age for a 6 year old boy.
Hey, how much you wanna bet my 25 year old Appy can out show the horse attached to these toes?
LOVE that video of Quickie. He’s a star.
Lindsey can just about make anything look good/easy. Not taking anything away from Quickie.
I knew that picture had to be of an Arab. Pity, pity, pity. Go to the Arab Sport Horse Nationals and see incredibly talented, normally shod horses. Very enjoyable to watch and very complimentary to the breed. Go to a main ring Class A show and see shoeing jobs that rival TWH and the nasty fake motion that accompanies that kind of shoeing. Very uncomplimentary to the breed. And the hard core Class A showers can’t understand why fewer and fewer people want to participate. Sad!
How can this NOT be expected from Ay-Ray-Bean peeps? After all, they invented rollkur (and I know this because I watched the disintegration of decent training in AyRabs over four decades).
BTW part of the problem is really, really REALLY bad education of farriers. Yes, it behooves (pardon pun) owners to self-educate. But let me tell you right now if you haven’t experienced it: even as an educated owner with years of experience sometimes if you DARE to say anything to the farrier who suddenly has gone careless or, worse, “rogue” you will find yourself verbally attacked and the victim of a very thorough blacklisting and smear campaign.
Some of the farrier schools are only interested in crankin’ em out in the smallest amount of time for the biggest amount of tuition. Think of the results of that when contemplating the old adage “no foot, no horse.”
This is a gripe about mine: Farriers, you are providing a service and I am the customer. Please do what I ask unless you truly believe it is harmful to the horse. I swear it’s like impossible to get them to give you what you want. All I want is a nice BROAD hoof that is not being pinched or restrained or “prettied up” in any way. I want the horse to have his natural foot, just with a shoe on it. It’s like pulling teeth.
This is a gripe of mine: Customers, you are paying me to do a job and I am the professional. Please take the advice I give you because it is harmful to the horse if you don’t. I swear, it’s like impossible to get them to do what you want. All I want is to help the horse create a nice BROAD hoof that is not being pinched or restrained or “prettied up†in any way. I want the horse to have his natural foot, withOUT a shoe on it. It’s like pulling teeth.
–a barefoot trimmer
If I was going to shoe a horse I’d do it the way it sounds like you’re describing but do try to look at things from the farrier’s point of view: their work is their calling card so if you are asking for something that they think will get them fewer new customers than what they themselves wanted to do then you’re going to have to sweten the pot. Highly skilled/trained people inevetably have their own opinions about things. They’re profesionals, not your slaves.
Respectfully, I disagree. Having lost a horse to the results of a brutally incompetent farriery job when I specifically and most adamantly stated that the so-called “Strasser Method” was absolutely NOT in any way shape or form to be used on my horses and IT WAS DONE ANYWAY – after I left for work and the BO was holding my horse (and the BO tried to stop it too) I simply do not agree that just because you are paying someone to do a job doesn’t mean that person is a professional except in the narrowest possible sense of the term.
There are lots of unskilled/unprofessional people calling themselves farriers, barefoot trimmers, horse trainers, etc. As the owner it’s your job to weed them out and not let them near your horse! A farrier using the “Strasser method”?! That sounds totaly bizar! I’m very sorry that your horse was maimed. I hope you won’t judge us all by the incompitence of others. There are good farriers and bad farriers. Same goes for barefoot trimmers.
What I was refering to in my earlier comment is that it sounds like Fugly was using a farrier who wanted to put a pinched, upright “WP foot” on her horse who is going to be going to WP events. He may well be thinking that a “WP foot” is what a WP horse needs to compete at top level or he may just be thinking about how he wants to leave a calling card that he thinks other peole will call him back from. Most WP people want that kind of hoof so when he sees a stallion quality horse who is going to be competing in shows he wants to do what he considers his best work and what he thinks other potential customers will notice and possibly ask about. He wants them to come up and ask, “who’s your farrier” not stand at the rail pointing and laughing.
And for the record, even given that I’m not being a big fan of shoes, it sounds to me like Fugs is doing right by her horse and his hooves. It’s just that when you’re swimming against the current you need to realize that it’s going to take some extra effort to get where you want to go.
He is not maimed. HE IS DEAD. He suffered agonizing and excruciating pain, blew his front tendons, rotated through his soles and was humanely euthanized. You think it is “bizar” (sp: bizarre) that the Strasser method was used on my completely sound horse. I wanted NOTHING to do with this “Strasserizing” that my formerly trusted farrier decided after a weekend clinic (spell clinic as c-u-l-t) she was going to switch to.
Maybe you should educate yourself on the Strasser method (first requirement: draw blood, second requirement: assure the owner that the horse “will only be lame for a year and then will be stronger than ever”). I believe this method has been banned in UK, that is what I was told by the president of the Farriers Guild in UK via e-mail. He also stated that it was “going to be” banned in other European countries.
Because of the fallout generated by legions of horses being crippled by “Strasserites” (my vet once told me he could send all four of his kids to college on vet fees generated by lamenesses caused by the Strasser method) a lot of so-called “barefoot trimmers” don’t call what they do “Strasser method” but the mechanics are the same. Just because someone calls themself a barefoot trimmer does not mean they have the brain power God gave a cockroach. You really have to be proactive and educate yourself and ask a lot of nosy questions.
PS my horses are barefoot and wear boots where needed.
You know, I have a real solution for everyone out there who is either sniping about farriers, their methods or how much they have to pay…why don’t YOU go to farrier school?? Then you can do whatever the hell you want with your horse. I think 12 or more good hard weeks under the gauntlet will teach much more than hearsay, trainers or books will. Be the change you wish to see in the world. My guess is that nobody will though, they’d rather bitch.
Because most of us have other careers and cannot take four months or six months or a year off to go to school where a lot of the instructors have their butts where their brains should be: the brains seem to be slipping out of the crack. I have never complained about the cost of excellent farriery. I don’t think most people who complain of the cost are really upset about the cost, what they are torqued about is being required to pay through the nose for a crappy (or crippling) job. What the educated owner WANTS and what the educated owner works hard at sometimes nightmarish jobs (Fugly you know THAT drill) to be able to pay for, is an educated, careful, caring and PROFESSIONAL farrier committed to the horse and not merely the means to buy their next six pack.
OMG, how true about farrier’s!!! We live in rural Ontario, and it’s the same thing here. The first farrier we made an appointment with – I’d just gotten my first horse and he’d broken a shoe, we needed someone when he said he’d be here, and he stood us up, didn’t call, didn’t answer our calls – was an ASS. We lucked out and found a guy (through another neighbour who went to high school with him) who works a couple hours away (and for top Canadian jumper owners), but happens to LIVE just down the road. We’re his only local clients, and it’s only because I downright BEGGED. He does a great job, and he’s young, but even so, he’s cocky and doesn’t listen TOO well. I tread a line between asking his opinion, and getting what I want done.
Also, I have to add that trainers and ferriers will argue THROUGH riders/owners. My trainer bitches about the feet (quarter clips vs. toe clips, etc.) and the ferrier tells me she’s nuts. Blah blah blah. As a relatively new owner (but long time rider) who never had to deal with this stuff, I look to these people to educate me. So I end up having to sift through, do research, and do trial and error to figure out what’s best. It’s frustrating, but at the same time, I guess at least I’m getting a well-rounded education!
Yes and just listen if you can stomach it to the endless bickering, backbiting, sniping and flaming that goes on beteen farriers and vets. Seems most farriers think vets are idiots and most vets think most farriers are worse than idiots and both sets of idiots are far too willing to try to recruit the horse owner to be on “their side.” Frankly my opinion of vets and farriers has declined strongly over the past few decades because of the lack of professionalism – true professionalism – of both.
I don’t understand how a horse can have a healthy hoof when there is a shoe nailed onto it….. Any shoe prevents the foot from expanding and contracting, thus decreasing bloodflow to the hoof, thus creating a sick hoof… IMHO, you cannot have a broad, healthy hoof, that spends the majority of it’s time with a rigid object nailed to it.
I’m also curious why horses need to be shod in order to show? What is it about moving in circles in a soft, well groomed arena that necessitates shoes, unless it is to create an artifical gait. Or to mask something. And, I think it’s disgusting what saddleseat and TWH people do to their horses to get a gait.
I agree wholeheartedly to what An American in Copenhagen says… you hire a farrier (professional) to do a job for you. A horseowner really has no right to -tell- what the farrier to do. He/she is the one with the knowledge. He/she is the one that has made this profession his livelihood. It would be like anyone off the street coming into your place of work and -telling- you how to do your job.
If you’ve hired a bad farrier, fair enough, don’t offer them anymore work. Find someone who trims like you like.
You can have a perfectly healthy hoof with PROPER shoeing. Proper shoeing does no more to the horse than wearing flip-flops does to you – it merely protects against contact with gravel and other harsh footings that would cause bruising. It no more hurts the horse to trim, or to put a nail into the correct part of the hoof, than it hurts you to clip your toenails.
Lots of show arenas have shitty footing and/or you have to travel on asphalt or gravel to get to the show arena. If we all rode on grass, no, we wouldn’t need shoes.
“I agree wholeheartedly to what An American in Copenhagen says… you hire a farrier (professional) to do a job for you. A horseowner really has no right to -tell- what the farrier to do. He/she is the one with the knowledge. He/she is the one that has made this profession his livelihood. It would be like anyone off the street coming into your place of work and -telling- you how to do your job.”
But my boss gets to tell me how to do my job, even though I’m a professional. Reason? The boss is paying for my work. Whoever is paying for your work gets to criticize you. They’re NOT some stranger off the street. They’re PAYING for work to be done. With farriers, the client is paying the bills. I’m offended by the fuck-you-I-know-better attitude I have sometimes encountered – and no, that attitude does not get my money. Again, I totally agree that a farrier can and should be able to say NO if the client wants something detrimental to the horse. But when I say, I want a shorter toe and I don’t want the heels pinched, I expect to be listened to, also.
OK – I’m a second generation farrier and I just can’t keep my mouth shut.
First – whoever the shoer is (and I use the term loosely) who performed the “job” on the horse pictured ought to have his rasp shoved where the sun don’t shine. As a farrier, it is my JOB to do the best thing for the HORSE while taking the owner into consideration. Period. I realize that means that I will do the best thing in my opinion. My opinion will be based on a lifetime of education, observation, apprenticeship (is that a word??), and experience.
Next – as for the bare/shoe debate….
I switched to a completely barefoot practice over six years ago, now. I dont’ think I will ever shoe another horse. Shoes were not invented to “protect” the hoof (they don’t do that, anyway, more on that later). They were invented to keep the hooves from literally falling apart. This happened after the fall of the Roman Empire when people had to keep horses inside over the winter to prevent them being stolen and/or eaten by Barbarian hordes. When they are forced into an unnatural environment, like 24/7 indoor living, bad stuff happens. Like standing in their own waste. Ammonia in the waste (not to mention all the tasty germs) literally destroys the “glue” in the hooves. Medieval blacksmiths added horseshoeing to their list of duties. Before you say it: Greek hipposandals, etc — I know, I know. The hipposandals actually tied on to the horse’s feet and were removed at the end of the day. Other shoes that have been found were claimed to be Roman, but modern dating places them in the Medieval period. Let’s not get caught up here, because it’s not the point. I’ll give you plenty of argument fodder presently…
As we continue to keep horses in ways that aren’t natural for them to live, like everyone I know, myself included, we must compensate for it in one way or another. Hooves on domestic horses are exactly like Mustang hooves at birth. Exactly like them. Even the halter bred paints. Exactly like them at a molecular level. Environment here is the culprit. Did your horse move ten to twenty miles per day from the age of a few weeks old? Nope?? Mine, either. Did his hooves develop the incredibly tough knarly digital cushion in the back of it that the wild hoof did? Nope?? Mine, either. Can he go twenty miles now without any protection? Nope, mine either. What to do?? Well, until recently there wasn’t a whole lot you could do besides traditional shoeing. Everyone, and let’s admit it here, everyone has always agreed that it would be wonderful if all the horses could go barefoot, but some of them just didn’t seem to be able to. Can’t argue with that.
Sooo – enter modern plastics and composite materials — as any of you know if you’ve ever been stepped on, not much will stand up to being between a horse’s hoof and the dirt! Modern hoof boots are unbelievable – they absolutely fill the gap. You can have your cake and eat it, too. Imagine yourself in your living room (think ‘pasture’). This is the environment that your feet are accustomed to, and one where they function optimally in a bare state (ahhh – thank goodness for the return of shag carpet!!). But now you need to check the mail — before you go down the driveway, what do you do?? Why, you slip something on your feet. Something soft. Something adjustable. Something that contributes to the shock absorbing qualities of your naturally arched foot. Something that allows you to stride down the driveway filled with confidence that no gravel will poke through the open middle, nor will it slip on the pavement or concrete. If your horse needs shoes to get around in the pasture, um, you’ve got serious, serious issues.
Horse’s hooves are my second favorite miracle. The things that they do for the horse are myriad and crucial to the well-being of the rest of the animal. Did you know that the hemodynamic pressure that occurs in the hoof during weight bearing actually stops the descent of the fetlock? The tendons were never made to do that job alone – never. Did you know that the heels are actually able to flex independently of one another – if one side of the hoof comes down on a stone, the flexion happens right there – in a shoe, the entire capsule is forced to take the pressure. Since it can’t, that strain is now transferred to the coffin, pastern, and fetlock joints. These joints are called “saddle joints” – they’re only made to go front to back, not side to side. Any guesses where ringbone comes from?? Do I see a hand at the back of the room?? If you have arthritic joints, do you subject them to hard landings and concussive forces? Ouch! I bet those of you with arthritic knees have some soft, cushy, shock absorbing shoes on right now. The list goes on and on and on. Everyone knows shoes are fraught with issues, but some people will argue it to the grave. This is silly.
Shoes have done their job, and honorably, too. No good farrier has EVER put a shoe on a horse to be mean. I certainly didn’t. But it’s time to retire the old, and celebrate the incredible improvements in hoof care over the last thirty years.
Why would you need shoes in an arena? How could something that only covers the wall (the part least likely to need protection) keep you from getting sole bruises? Raising the hoof up 1/4 of an inch really isn’t significant as far as rocks are concerned. If the hoof is always growing, how can a shod hoof maintain balance since it can’t wear off? The hoof is unbalanced compared to the internal structures, technically, within days, even with the best shoeing. This applies to trimming, too, and is why the clients on a four week schedule have the highest satisfaction rating and the horses with the best hooves. I would never, never allow a client’s horse to go more than six weeks without a reshoe or reset. This is a long term recipe for disaster. Yes, that means you, with the horse whose “hooves grow slow”. Bet they’d grow if they were getting some work to do.
I like to think of it this way — my husband loves banana bread. I like to make it for him. If I find a recipe that’s even better than my recipe, I’ll switch instantly! I wouldn’t go around denying that there’s a better recipe, complaining that the recipe couldn’t possibly work in my oven, keeping the recipe from my husband so that he keeps thinking mine is best, etc., etc.. I have found a better hoof recipe. I’m using it, dammit, every chance I get. I told myself that if I find something that needs shoes, why, I’ll shoe the horse. It hasn’t happened in six years.
There are some very damaging barefoot methods. I do not approve. If your horse has a “barefoot” trim and can’t walk, somebody screwed up, big time. They should be smacked with a rasp. Repeatedly. I also take issue with barefoot methods that poo-poo boots and say “You’re not bare if you’re using boots..blah blah” This is crap. Utter crap. I don’t have an issue with shoes, just hard metal ones that damage the feet and other internal horse parts, and diminish the hoof’s capacity to assist the rest of the horse as it evolved to do. Metal shoes are not like flip flops. Boots are, except you can ride in them! Ha – look, I’m hilarious (and oh, so safety conscious)!
If you’ve “tried” barefoot and it didn’t work, you didn’t have the right farrier or you weren’t the right owner. Period. Either they didn’t know something they needed to, or they didn’t tell you something they needed to tell you. Sadly, there’s a lot of owner laziness involved — no, no, you’re not lazy on purpose, you’ve just gotten used to having the farrier come out every eight weeks and then essentially neglecting your horse’s hooves in the meanwhile. Yep, neglect. It’s endemic to American Horse Culture. Hooves require a lot of thought and a lot of care, a lot more care than I was raised to give them. I am not insulting anyone here, so don’t argue this either, there are meatier topics. In my opinion, “slapping” a shoe on it and then letting it go til the next time is neglect. Hoof picking aside…
Barefoot horsekeeping is not always instant, easy, or simple. It is not a “quick fix” (hence the high rate of failure – lack of patience in owners and farriers). Hooves that have been damaged and deformed require time to heal. Time, dammit. And you, the owner, have to HELP. You’re there every day. If your horse fails, it’s your fault. I’m sorry, but it’s true. Even if I were the world’s finest farrier (!), I’m only there when I’m there — you’re there all the time and it’s YOUR horse. Your responsibility. I will always help you in any way that I can.
It is my responsibility to tell you what I’m doing and why, to make it make sense to you. I’m there to help you, I will come when you call, I will see you “in-between” for free, especially when you’re trying hard to get it right. I will listen to your concerns, and if I can’t address them, you need a different farrier. I will show up on time and sober. I will be nice to you and your horse, I will respect your efforts. I will not be dictated to. This is my specialty. I know more about it than you, your vet, your trainer, your friends. Because I’m supposed to. I’m very good at what I do, and I’m very successful in my work. That’s what you’re paying me for. I will not train your horse, perform surgery on him, or help you pick out silverware. Other people do that. I will never belittle your questions and I will always try your suggestions if we can agree that they make sense. But ultimately, I do this for the love of horses, not their owners. I expect to be part of your team because you love horses, too. We should all be on the same page.
Obviously, I could go on and on, but the meat is this – protect your horse’s hooves as you need to. Just use something nice, soft, shock absorbing and comfortable. Doesn’t that seem like common sense? How could you argue with that? As a horseowner, it’s your job to do the very best that you know how to do. Ultimately, you have to sleep at night knowing the care that you’ve provided is correct to the best of your knowledge. I do not ever make fun of, or join in the “shoe bashing” that lots of barefoot proponents do. It’s not right, and I used to be one of them (shoe proponents). I wish that everyone knew what I know now. Hell, I wish I knew then what I know now. I know that horses would be better off. I know it passionately and to the core of my being. So don’t argue with me
Besides, I’m really strong 
I can’t disagree with any of that! Unfortunately, you can’t show in boots, can you? (I honestly don’t know. I’d have to check the rule book on that but I suspect it would weird out the judges and you wouldn’t get placed even if it was legal)
“If your horse has a “barefoot†trim and can’t walk, somebody screwed up, big time.”
THANK YOU. The reason some of us have gotten a bad opinion of barefooters is this nonsense that you should just walk your horse on gravel and make him ouch along til he “toughens up.” Uh, not going to do that. Sorry. I’ve seen horses rendered unwilling to move at all by some barefoot trimmers. I’ve seen blood drawn.
I totallagree with owners learning more about there horses hooves, It has always been left to the “pros” and never though of, here are some great sites
http://www.barefoothorse.com/
http://www.barefoottrim.com/physiology/partsofhoof.htm
Bare foot really is a great thing with the proper support and knowledge, it has made my horse sound and happy.
But as far as needing shoes to show, who says that you need nailed on shoes? There are many different options then to nail into a healthy hoof. There are glued on shoes that are much better then they ever where, as well as packing and gel seals thar can work great for what is needed for showing, and no harm done. How would a judge know or care about the difference. Boots have always worked great for me but I dont show.
It drives me crazy when people say the shoes protect the hoof, the shoe does not stop the gravel from hitting the sole where the bruises happen, the shoes is rimed around the hoof wall not allowing the hoof to flex and causing it to go numb, like people with socks that are too tight,
opps also wanted to say why would you pay someone to do a job if they dont know how to do it properly,
Hmmm — you wouldn’t be willing to sacrifice your horse’s health to show him, would you, dear?? Ha ha – just had to give you a hard time.
I abhor invasive “barefoot” trimming techniques. I, too, have seen blood drawn. Absolutely sickening — even worse are the owners who allow it to happen time after time. I hear all sorts of lame excuses for this, but they are utter crap in my opinion. There is nothing “natural” about this, and in fact, it’s very very damaging to the hooves. It absolutely undermines the hoof structure. You will not convince me otherwise. I don’t care what your “results” are. If you are doing this to horses, you are wrong.
Many times I will pull the horse’s shoes, knock off anything really yucky, and then leave the foot for a couple of weeks so that I can see what they’re up to. By observing the changes in the hoof, I get a better idea of what they’re trying to be like, and the likelihood of soreness is greatly reduced. I personally feel that if the horse is sore after a trim that I’ve made a mistake. Anyone can make a mistake once (or even twice!), but I expect you to tell me instantly if something like this happens and hopefully, allow me to learn from it and fix it. When a new prospective client calls me dissatisfied with their current farrier, I always ask them to call their farrier, tell them how they feel, and give that person a chance to fix it. That’s what I would want for myself.
Sometimes a horse will be tender because his feet are in bad shape, but I hope it’s never due to my trimming. I have a client whose horse requires long feet. Really long feet. I hate HATE the way his trim looks. I tell her to lie if anyone asks who her farrier is! But that’s what it takes for him to be comfy. So that’s what I do. There are some hard and fast rules, but even then, you have to bend them. Mother Nature does it all the time.
While I don’t like to be dictated to, I don’t dictate to the horse or owner, either. I will issue the occasional professional edict
, but if your farrier is intimidating you, bossing you around, or telling you that you don’t know what you’re talking about, then you need to call me! I count on you as the owner who knows their animal to tell me what I need to know about him so that I can do the best job for that particular horse.
Some shows don’t allow boots that come up over the coronet band, some don’t allow them at all. Personally, I think if an arena is hosting a show, that arena had better be in good enough shape for a completely bare hoof to compete. In speed events, my clients report that they have shaved time off of all events. I chalk it up to the horse’s increased confidence in his proprioception (knowledge of where his feet are), not to mention that it’s easier to move when transitioned from a longer (inappropriately long) hoof.
It’s just common sense. It used to be so common….
I don’t mean to come off as crabby, mean, rigid, or otherwise. I remember Cathy’s quote about not being so bitchy if she weren’t right so often, and I guess that’s kind of how I feel, too. I’ve learned to pick my battles, but there are times when I just want to SCREAM. Sigh….
I love your comments! I finally learned how to trim my own horses almost a year ago, because there just aren’t any good barefoot trimmers where I live–the one that is sort of OK has a penchant for hacking off “false sole” and frogs and laming my horses every single time (personally, I think if a horse keeps piling on false sole every few weeks, she probably NEEDS it to heal! Leave it alone–Let her lose it herself through movement!). I think it’s because he couldn’t stand that one of mine has long hooves–and they really are long. I hate them myself, and I’m the trimmer now! But I hate horses being sore and lame even more, so I left them long. I’m patient–I have all the time in the world–and now that I have moved my horses to my own property and can feed them an appropriate diet and get them out more and… this one has been the key (who knew?) put them on 4-5 inches of pea gravel… her hooves are finally getting shorter and looking much better! But she’s been sound through the entire process. She’s 22 and had awful TWH “soda can” long hooves for years. I had to use hoof boots (I’ll admit again that I despise putting on boots, so I work super hard to get them to where I don’t need them–and most of the time I don’t. Of course, it helps that my horses live on the foothills of the very mountains horses evolved from (I just found that out yesterday–I didn’t know primitive horses were from Utah/Idaho/Wyoming. Cool!)) Anyway, the ground is rocky, crazy stuff, and my horses feet are tough as nails. Bed them where you ride… that’s what I’m doing, and it works. They’re not 100% perfect yet, but they are works in progress. I use boots when I need them and am glad to have them as a tool. Anyway–loving the discussion.
Well, if you really wanted to you could use hoof boots to get across the gravel parking lot and up to the arena and then take them off at the gate (which, with the new boots like the Easyboot Glove takes all of 3 seconds per boot).
http://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/easyboot_glove/Easyboot_glove.aspx
But if your horse is truely sore just walking on gravel you might want to look into that (DIET).
http://blog.easycareinc.com/blog/easycare/0/0/-low-grade-laminitis-a-new-understanding-of-hoof-pathology-by-richard-vialls-dep-mepa-uk
Also, there are glue on boots that do not go above the hairline and if the hoof has hoofblack on it you’d never notice it at all. These are VERY popular with endurance riders who use them for long competition rides and weekend events. They’re also becoming really popular as a temporary “in between” for horses that can’t go comfortably barefoot straight out of shoes. They last 4 weeks or so (but can be removed before that if you just want them on for a weekend or specific event) and can be re-glued (used twice total) to save on material costs. These boots are legal in ALL disciplines.
http://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/easyboot_Glue-On/easyboot_glue-on.aspx
At some point in the future Easycare plans to have a cuff system that will make the glue on boot just as removable as a normal boot with gaitor. I look forward to that! The hoof boot industry is moving so fast these days it’s even a challenge for those of us who are paying attention to keep up!
http://blog.easycareinc.com/blog/easycare/0/0/easyboot-cuff-system
While Easycare may have a good product (though I do not agree with any part of what is implied by “easy” and three seconds? harharharharhar…)they really do need to take some customer service lessons from, oh, say, maybe Nordstrom? When it comes to adequate (not even asking for excellent here) they are sadly lacking, in my experience.
Anyone looking for extensive booting info check out Gretchen’s Boot Swap page. Google that, to find it. (Personal fav, SoftRides.)
Bravo! Thanks for the clear-headed look at why the old shoe vs. barefoot debate is dead (or should be!). When I started trimming (for myself, then others) in 2001, boot choices were limited and almost useless. The improvements in the last few years are astounding…there’s really no viable reason to use metal shoes anymore. As far as showing, I don’t know much about it. These things change and become accepted by people doing and fighting for them! Though I do have to say…if a horse is too unsound to perform in an arena (any arena), then s/he shouldn’t be competing at all.
In twenty-two years of horse ownership, I’ve never had a horse shod. Never plan to. Of my two current mares, one has amazing hooves and one has typical shelly TB hooves.
My family has owned the TB for nineteen years. She has never worn shoes, never been confined. Apart from a year or so in show training, she has had complete liberty 24 hours a day in large lush hilly pastures. Her hooves are just short and prone to quarter cracks.
My Walker mare was stalled eight hours a day (or night, during the winter) for a couple of years but is now back on 24-hour pasture. Her hooves are strong and grow very deep even at 6 to 7 week trim intervals. This has always been so.
Clearly stabling conditions and usage are not responsible for the inferior hoof condition of the TB mare. If she were stabled in urine-soaked bedding she’d probably have 4 rotted feet, but the hooves aren’t great to start with. TBs just aren’t bred for hoof strength.
For those who may remember my quest to find a decent farrier, my vet recommended an apprentice and he’s doing great work!
“24 hours a day in large lush hilly pastures”
Sucessfuly going barefoot is NOT just about taking the shoes off and trimming differently. If it were truely that easy everybody would be doing it! It’s also a lot about diet and while ’24 hours a day in a large hilly enclosure’ would made me smile, the word “lush” makes me wince. Very few horses can tolerate 24/7 grass (depending on where you live–North Dakota, maybe. Western Washington State, probably not) and still have good hooves. A lot of horses will remain pasture sound on this kind of diet but when you want to ride anywhere but an arena you’ll find they either need shoes or boots (or better yet a diet change and boots) to be comfortable.
Northern Illinois and now Central Texas. In Illinois the grass was lovely and it was never just suddenly there so we didn’t usually have to worry about founder. We did limit hours spent in newly opened pastures in the spring and when fields were rotated.
We’re in the midst of pasture rotation in Texas right now and all the horses are spending some time in a large pasture and a smaller paddock. The grass isn’t as good here and didn’t do well during the winter.
We have 3 BAREFOOT team roping horses – competitive, win money every weekend horses and work in the pasture during the week — and a gaited horse I show in open shows — and they are ALL barefoot. The DQP @ the shows knows I trim my own and just smiles and waves when we go into the ring. 3 of the 4 have never had shoes, and the 4th (one of the roping horses) had constant problems when shod that he hasn’t had in the 18 months he’s been barefoot. That, to me, is all the ‘proof’ I need to know what’s best for my horses; may not be for everyone, but it works – And they live out 24/7, too.
I show without shoes…and have shown with easy boots as well. I agree with all the farrier said. I do also agree that some horses, at some times..will need shoes.
During the past two winters I have put shoes with borium on my mare for traction on ice while pulling our sleigh. She’s 20 and even goes riding up in the mountains…barefoot. I did submit to my trainer and put shoes on her for AQHA shows when she was a three and four year old..but found it rather silly to go around a big arena with shoes..when I knew that she did not need it. We did just as well and never had a judge say a word to us for no shoes and I do think that my horse was much better off for it. She does not have tiny feet and wonder of wonders..she has halter breeding.
JMHO
I have to argue with one of the points you made. Horses are NOT all born with the same hoof. The reason the mustangs off the range have such good feet, is because they’re the ones who were born with them. Yes, the environment helps condition those feet, but if a horse is born with terrible feet they go lame, fall behind the herd, and get eaten. That, ladies and gentlemen, is natural selection, and the reason that most mustangs ARE born with good feet. Your Thoroughbreds, Arabians, and halter QH/Paints haven’t been subject to that for hundreds, if not thousands of years. So unless you plan to turn them out on the range and see which ones come home, they do need more hoof care to correct what has been bred into them.
*Proud owner of a sound, barefoot BLM mustang*
You sure it’s a genetic difference, as much as it’s the difference of mustangs growing up as nature intended and developing great feet? I think if my QH–who really had crappy hooves and I complained forever it was genetic, but funny how they’ve improved and we just did a 12-mile ride on crazy, rocky ground last weekend totally barefoot–had grown up the way a mustang does out in the wild moving 20+ miles/day on bare feet, he’d have great hooves, because he’d have great hoof and bone development. Instead, he was pulled off a 2,000-acre pasture as a yearling and stuck in a stall. That tends to arrest foot development. To make it worse, he had shoes slapped on his front hooves shortly thereafter–also a great way to stop foot development. I used to believe very strongly that we had bred the hoof off the horse, but I don’t believe it any more–not with what I’ve seen with proper hoof care and movement. Sure–some horses can naturally withstand what we do to their hooves better than others, but all of them can have good hooves with proper care and diet and exercise and trims. Just over a year ago, I would have called me insane for having said that. Funny what can happen in a year…
A perfect example of what time can accomplish: http://www.ausequinearts.com/CaseLily.html
And amen on this post!
What an awesome and educational post! Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and opinion.
Thank you! I appreciated the ‘walk through history’ and learned so much!
Hey now, don’t go knocking all of us TWH people…My mare’s barefoot with no weird angles and a short hoof, and has a lovely, completely natural gait- even bareback on a loose ring snaffle and long rein. Yes, I do ride her saddleseat as well~ not in park classes, of course. The local shows have very stringent regulations in place regarding shoe type, width, caulk, etc.
Just sayin’…
Agreed. We went from MR to SH and then to open, leaving AHA behind. Have a mare winning 2nd and 3rd level in USDF Region 4 now, happy, won’t go back and won’t ever sell a horse to MR folks.
I was betting that this was an Arab. From the above post, looks like I may be right. Can’t do weighted shoes (that I’m aware of) so just lenghten the toes, and the action will come???!!
If the horse is properly developed physically and mentally they can have gorgeous action at the top of what their genetics provide. You don’t need any goofy tricks if you just take the time to do it right. If some of you who knew Pacific Northwest Arabian show horses in the past, maybe someone recalls a park horse called “Zam Zam” who had his above-level at trot spectacular action barefoot, from birth – and his trainer did nothing to ruin that spectacular action. Of course there have been many more like him and even more gifted movers but recall that Arabians’ heritage was for ground-covering energy-protecting movement going the distance. If you want Saddlebred action for heaven’s sake go buy a Saddlebred!
OK, I am totally ignorant when it comes to gaited breeds, I admit it. I was just wondering what benefit the people that shoe their horse that way get over the ones that dont. Just curious, as I would think training could produce just as good of results and if it cant, then maybe what the horse is being asked to do , shouldnt be asked. Maybe it is something that is not natural and is harmful.
Educate me!!
Proper time, prospects and training = time, which in turn means money.
Weighted shoes: faster and cheaper.
Microwave generation.
Just a minor correction: “gaited” is not synonomous with “saddle seat.” In fact, the only similarity between the TWH and true saddle seat horses is that they use the same saddle. That’s where it ends. “Gaited” horses are TWHs, Rocky Mountain horses, Paso Finos, Icelandic etc that have a unique smooth gait that they generally use instead of a trot and often prefer it to a canter as well.
Saddle seat horses MUST trot and the only division where they add another gait to the standard walk/trot/canter is in the 5-gaited class (which you only see in saddlebreds and national show horses) which adds a rack and slow-gait – both are 4-beat gaits. We do often refer to our 5-gaited saddlebreds as “gaited” horses, but they are not true “gaited” horses.
The difference in shoeing between saddle seat and gaited horses is also rather large. On one end of the gaited spectrum, you have the TWH big lick horse. This is where you see the “stacks” and the scooty hind end motion, flinging front legs, and a labored german shepherd looking hind end (gross and not “saddle seat” shoeing). On the other end of the spectrum, you have the natural going gaited horse that just needs standard kegs or can go barefoot to do his job. There are some tweaks a good farrier knows to assist one who doesn’t have as true of a gait as he should (like one that gets a little too pacey). There are entire books written about this, so I won’t get into it.
As far as actual saddle seat horses go (walk/trot/canter and you can include 5-gaited saddlebreds in here as well since they must also W/T/C), high action is the goal. Longer feet and heavier shoes can increase that action to a point. Angles that don’t correspond with the horse’s natural angles can also assist in creating the “look” the owner or trainer is after, but this practic is really hard on the joints and tendons. Most horses have a sweet spot where they perform at their best, but some trainers assume longer and heavier is always better, and then you get labored looking gaits and weird feet like you see above. Again, saddle seat shoeing at its best is an artform. Longer saddle seat feet require more precision and balancing than your standard trim, and a good saddle seat farrier is welcome to shoe any of my horses (even the non-saddle seat ones).
Even my dressage horse benefits from a slightly longer foot (nothing like saddle seat length, haha). He gets more length of stride and more expression in his gait. If the farrier resets him just a bit too short for his personal taste, he’ll feel like he can’t quite find his stride and cannot get his tempo quite right until his feet grow back a bit. He’s certainly at his best when he has the length of foot he’s comfortable with, which is a bit longer than some other horses. This is not unique to him = )
Sigh.
Long toes != training
Another endless frustration… a gait found at the end of an unbalanced hoof is not “natural”. I once trimmed nearly two inches off of the hooves of a 12 year old TW mare. Her heels (crushed) ended about 1/2 inch ahead of where the quarters should have been. The owner informed me that I was “ruining her gait”. I informed her, politely, that that was the horse’s gait! Sorry – what your horse only does with 2″ toes, he DOESN’T actually do. Period.
Not to say that the gait couldn’t be improved on that horse. That would involve actual training, not a “gait” down the barn aisle and a “Yep, he gaits, throw him back in the stall (and get some shoes on him quick so that his toes don’t accidentally self-trim, er, break off..)”. It’s amazing that a dressage rider will spend two years to get ‘the trot’, but that pace down the barn aisle is often all that a Walker gets. I applaud those horses on their temperment, putting up with that.
I will never leave toes on a hoof that will pull it apart. It’s not the best thing for the horse. So I wont do it. Even if it will make you “win”.
Yep. Many saddle seat trainers use long toes and heavy shoes as a substitute for real training and conditioning (and really, how can you expect a poorly conditioned horse to perform well on heavy shoes and long feet? Just seems a little backwards…) People can pretend all they want that it doesn’t happen, but a lot of big time show trainers just don’t have time to work all of the horses they need to have in training to make a living. So guess what? A lot of horses that can coast and still do pretty respectably, get 10-15 minutes of work and are done for the day. It’s actually pretty normal in the saddlebred world and I’d imagine (though I have no experience with it) even more normal in the TWH world – what horse could work on those feet for more than 10 minutes?! Ack!
I say all of this as a person who dearly loves saddlebreds and saddle seat in general. I just feel that there are too many (not saying everybody) who have made it to the top without using good horsemanship. Wonky shoeing is just one aspect of this bigger issue.
I worked in a show barn(Arabian) for a summer, and it really made me so sad for the horses, every single one, with feet so long, all padded, mostly because they were already lame, and not one over 11 years old. One 8 or 9 year old getting all kinds of traditional and non traditional treatment so they could get him sound to- get this- sell him to some sucker. Or the saddle seat and park classes, with the horses so drugged up that as soon as the first horse(yes, always at least 1) pulled a shoe, 2 or 3 others immediately pulled out of the class, because their drugs were going to wear off befoer that horse got back in from getting its shoe tacked back on. Uppers, downers, painkillers, just get em to win. So sad, and they are all so lame an hour or so later. Every horse in the barn getting bute every night. lunging them for 45 minutes at a lope before their class. Sometimes only to one direction, because its too lame to lope the other direction except in its class. Or the best???? Waiting in the stall with the trainer checking their watch to inject the horse at the ‘Right’ time. UGH! And the trainers, all judging each other at different shows, like, I’ll put So and So in this class, and she has to score me well, because I gave her a good score on that piece of crap she was riding at the last show. I was astounded!!!! I’d heard all about it, but really, really didn’t believe it till then. I’ll never show a horse of mine in any breed show.
This is why I have reservations about the FEI’s new Bute rules.
My rescue has special corrective shoes to adjust for an old tendon injury and a 9 month old coffin bone fracture. it took us weeks to figure out how to adjust properly for both those issues but he is 100% sound with no painkillers (I don’t bute unless they are confined to a stall, I have never understood how that doesn’t just encourage them to reinjure..)
God bless my farrier, and my husband, who shells out the $168 every 8 weeks to keep up with the foot issues…
Okay I’m certainly not ‘defending’ anyone over a shoeing like that- most horse people with half a brain can see that it’s over the top.
HOWEVER.
Until I dated a farrier, I had NO idea what my previous farrier was doing, whether it was right or wrong, too short or long, shoes too big or too narrow.
I figured I was paying him the money, he had the education, I could trust him. I was lucky with him- the worst thing he did was put shoes a size too small on my TB.
Once I started dating my new farrier…. Boy did I learn a LOT. And sadly- it’s stuff most horse owners don’t even see. Every day for months I was seeing all sorts of hoof problems and how to correct them, examples of bad shoeings and trims from previous farriers, a gazllion cases of founder which required special trimming etc.
When we broke up I thought- oh shit how am I going to find a farrier that meets my standards now?! (Thankfully we are still on good terms and he still shoes for me).
My point is- I am one of the few who is lucky enough to KNOW all of this now. Most owners don’t. They do what I did- pay their farrier and assume he’s doing the right thing.
Many of my exes clients who used him for the first time or whatever were often shocked to hear that their previous farrier had been doing something wrong. (And don’t get me wrong- noones perfect and they all have bad days).
The most important thing I learnt was- if a hoof LOOKS good, then it’s probably healthy. If the angles are right, the horse is standing evenly, and it looks ‘pretty’ from every angle, then it’s probably a decent job.
I often find myself wondering- which is the best way to educate the average horse owner of the basic facts of shoeing and trimming? In the world of forums everyone has such vastly different opinions it’s so easy to be swayed by someone you THINK knows what they are talking about….
OMG! Since I have studied barefoot performance trimming, I am obssessed with horse feet. Like you said, every horse I see, I get really bothered by their hooves and I always see how to correct them. I wish I could educate everyone on how to maintain their horse’s feet. I wish I could educate people on horse care all togheter! I see horses with incredibly bad feet that are being fed 95% alfalfa (one whole sqare bale per day) when the alfalfa daily recommendation for a full grown horse is 1/4 of a bale per day. All horses are overweight and I’m pretty sure some are insulin resistant right now, they have foundered, abcessed and are pretty much all around lame. They live in a muddy paddock for half the year.
If you want your horse to have hard feet, you need to get him walking on harder ground. Introduce pea gravel around the drinker and food areas, get your horses walking, feed hay fartest away from the water.
I am an advocate for barefoot, but I don’t think it’s the solution for everything, I just try to find the most natural solution for my horses. If you need to shoe, try the Easywalker horseshoes, I have them on my lame Standardbred and she has improved 90% and is not lame anymore. It’s worth the try and it is even accepted in some shows. It is made from urethane palstic and is as solid as steel but absorbs the concussion with each step. Hooves are made from keratin and is supposed to be a hard, resistant but flexible material and I try to keep them barefoot or in flexible shoes.
I don’t know how to post a picture here but this is want my horse’s feet look like:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/photo.php?pid=11203866&id=769895161&fbid=475269160161
And this is the longest they get before a trim:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/photo.php?pid=11203867&id=769895161&fbid=475269170161
And this is what it looks like from the back:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/photo.php?pid=11203864&id=769895161&fbid=475269145161
Of course I cannot trim all my horses this way, this one has incredibly hard feet. The others are left a little longer. This horse has never had a lame day in her life and can walk, trot and canter on gravel, she usually does it on her own, there is a bit of gravel in her enclosure.
“Since I have studied barefoot performance trimming, I am obssessed with horse feet. Like you said, every horse I see, I get really bothered by their hooves and I always see how to correct them.”
Bwa ha ha! I’m exactly the same way.
Mind you, I’m not a holistic anything kind of a person–I’ll use drugs over herbs anyday, and could care less if anything is organic. But I got to a point where I could no longer afford having my mare shod. I was telling that to a dear friend of mine, and she sent me a copy of Pete Ramey’s Making Natural Hoofcare Work for You. What he said in this book made an incredible amount of sense, and his trim was different from those the local farriers were doing to my horses (butchering the soles, no mustang roll). So, I got out and started trimming the family horses. Made mistakes of course, from which the horses have since recovered and forgiven me. But learned.
My mare was so prissy about being barefoot. Now, three years later, she trots, canters, and gallops over 7-21 miles of gravel road a week. No problem. Her feet are tough as diamonds! Now I trim professionally for friends, and their horses hooves are slowly toughening up too!
I will never put iron on a horse’s foot again, unless it is literally falling apart like that poor horse someone was showing us on this blog the other day.
P.S. I have a policy about trimming. The horse must feel as good or better than it did before, or I did something wrong.
OK, seriously. You are at least the second person who has mentioned that you started out trimming for yourself and then started trimming others professionally. I’m scared that this is the natural progression of things… I’ve been trimming my own 5 horses for about a year, and people started coming to me for advice, which I very reluctantly give, and now they’re asking me to trim their horses hooves. Does this thing just suck you in, or what? Part of me thinks it would be a great weekend 2nd job, but I don’t know if I’m physically strong enough to do it–it’s hard enough keeping up with my 5 horses and the few others I’ve been helping friends with (for free–because I’m obviously crazy). Why do I have the feeling that it’s going to just keep expanding? Scary thought, indeed…
Amen to that, sister! I don’t even have a clue what the fuck these people are thinking when they let something like that happen, let alone MAKE it happen!!!
I’m a newbie and obviously I haven’t showed in anything but I really think this picture just begs the question of what in the heck is going through the minds of the judges at these shows? Honestly that picture makes me cringe so why in the world would anyone condone or enable people to continue with this sort of behavior? It’s baffling it really is…
What is going through the judges’ minds at breed shows is generated by “trainers judging trainers.” That is, “you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours.”
It is not about the horses anymore. It is about money. It is ONLY about money.
The big problem is they probably aren’t even calling the vet… Cause if they won’t pay for a trim/reset…they won’t pay a vet.
I don’t know if I’m just totally naive, or if stuff like this just doesn’t really HAPPEN in the UK (or at least not on this scale)…
I don’t know what alarms me the most – owners who don’t see that that is not good hoofcare, farriers who get payed to do that to a horse’s feet, vets who don’t point out that the shitty feet are the reason the horse is lame, or judges / breed associations who let this slide. The mind boggles!
I just thought, never mind VETS pointing out the obvious cause of lameness, what about the farriers? I wonder if they ever think “well yeah, you want it’s feet to look like THAT, it’s bound to be crippled”?
On another note, I’ve had thoughts for a while about why we don’t have such a problem over here with people who can’t afford to look after horses properly insisting on keeping / breeding them anyway, and Brenda’s post above just confirmed it again… Everything here is just so much more damned expensive, people are under no illusion about whether or not they can afford a horse, let alone a load of them. This applies to hay, feed, livery, vets fees etc. Shoeing? £75 every 6 weeks, I’ve just worked that out to be $115. A trim is £30 ($46). I can get away with going 7 weeks, but after that the shoes will definitely be paper-thin, and rattling.
Argh. Apologies for the “it’s” / “its” muck-up above. I HATE that.
No, stuff like this does not happen in Europe/UK.
No horse would be allowed to show under saddle with feet like that. I have seen feet getting a bit longer in halter classes, but nowhere near that extent.
The action is all wrong, we don’t want the sort of knee action they seem to want in the States…if you want knee action, get a Hackney!
But then we don’t have the range of saddle classes the States has (thank goodness!)
This is not to say there is not some crooked business going on over her, there is, but it is a matter of getting away with it, not it being par for the course.
Drugging is randomly checked for…you don’t have drug checks??
The amount of banned substances is twice as long as your arm, and even the feeds are careful what they put in, in vitamin form, as some of those are banned too!
REALLY? Check out a Dutch Harness Horse championship
Just to give you a bit more info, it’s not that all shoe jobs in the U.S. that are expensive. I pay $75 for a trim and reset (shoes on front only) and $85 if i put 4 shoes on, and my farrier is fantastic. This varies depending on location. It’s the saddle seat shoe jobs that are wildly expensive – $250-$350 at least every 6 weeks. To be fair to the saddle seat farriers, they spend a LOT more time (or the good ones do at least) getting the foot properly balanced while maintaining the length and then putting on pads and shoes. Trainers do NOT want to lose any toe length, so the farrier has to be very very precise. There are more materials, the shoes have to be tweaked and fitted a bit more, and there are usually at least 1-2 pads and sometimes a wedge. Compare that to the standard shoe job that’s a trim+kegs and maybe 1 pad once in awhile on a horse that really needs it. Makes sense why it costs more (more materials, more time, more labor).
Also, you wouldn’t see this in the UK because y’all don’t have “breed shows” in the same way that we do. I have to say, it’s been refreshing moving into the dressage and h/j world. There are still issues, but overall the trainers (and owners) are often more educated and you see fewer non-horse friendly techniques. The UK has a much longer history with horse keeping, and it’s respected much more over there.
Good grief I want to move. I miss paying under $100 for a well-done, balanced, drilled-and-tapped set of 4 shoes. You’ll be lucky in some parts of the country to find a farrier that charges under $150-$200 for shoes all around: not padded, not bar shoes, nope just four regular shoes all around. There are times I regret moving to this part of VA, and shoeing day is one of them.
Amen. I see so many fewer neglected horses and dogs here in Denmark than I did when I lived in the US.
Part of it is definitely that Europeans/Brits belive, from the start, that owning a pet is not a right but a luxury. I think a lot of people in the US feel like because they live in the countryside and want an animal that it’s their god given right to do so. Even if they don’t have the funds or the first clue about how to care for the thing. Americans are also more likley to use the “but I couldn’t afford better kace/training/education” excuse as an actual reason for not doing right by their animals. I know that’s an overgeneralisation but the shoe does fit.
Those hooves remind me of certain women at work who cherish having their precious long, painted, sometimes fake nails, but have to keep their hands in contorted positions to type on their keyboards or punch the “hold” button on the phone. Next thing you know, they’re taking a paid LOA from the company and getting L&I to pay for their carpal-tunnel surgery.
Imagine if they were horses, and had to WALK on those things.
HA HA I work with a woman like that… she’s wearing a brace RIGHT NOW.
The “mushy” slow way she types bothers me no end for some reason.
And her skinny chicken hands with their talons are downright creeeeepy.
I actually really like working with her, but her hands freak me OUT.
Holey crapoly! He/she looks like they are wearing pointe shoes for the ballet. There isnt any reason at all that the horses hoof is longer than his pasterns. I think that warranted a call to animal control or at the very least some one pulling him/her aside and letting them know that the length of their horses feet was unacceptable even if their farrier thinks it is, possibly with the phone number for a new farrier. Maybe he/she should have been shown some example of my horse is a week or two overdue for a trim and their feet arent near as long as yours, or just good old fashioned education about the anatomy of their horses legs!!
Cause Im seriuosly hoping this is an amateur or youths horse. The judge should have said something to them.
I’m very curious to know who this is. I don’t know any arab trainer giving horses uppers, not even the Park or English horses. Perhaps some of the bigger slimy halter guys do, but not performance. Not every English or Park class has a cast shoe, and if there is one, the foot and shoe are measured to check for legality. I have never seen a class where trainers asked to be excused because another horse pulled a shoe. After a few time outs sometimes the horses will get too hot, but not because the drugs wore off- it’s because Park is an adrenaline filled class which makes it difficult for the horses to then walk around and chill out while waiting for the steward to measure and then the farrier to re-set the shoe. Can you imagine a racehorse stopping mid-race and waiting around, knowing that the race will resume any minute? What do you “till the horse got back in from having its shoe tacked back on”?? The horse never leaves the ring for a cast shoe. EVER. The farrier and steward come into the ring. As for lungeing only one direction, how does that make sense? The horse has to trot in the ring.
The picture on the home page too small for me to get a good look, but the feet do look very long. I am familiar with shoeing the Arab show horses so that the hoof is trimmed normally and then a pad and shoe put on. The pad is to absorb shock and also to prevent stone-bruising. The heel extends out behind the hoof so that a plumb-line dropped from the heel of the bulb will touch the back of the shoe. This supports the suspensories. If the horse has any wedges it is because the vet has instructed the farrier to try to fix an angle to help keep the horse sound and have healthy feet and legs. Our vet and farrier work together, as do the show vets and farriers that we use. If a horse is having a soundness problem related to legs and feet, we then have the vet take radiographs and go over them with the farrier to get the shoeing right. All of this is not to make good and sure that our show-horses are lame. In the off season when they are not getting worked, and only get turn-out, the shoes get pulled.
“heel bulb”. I am not the best typer ever
I was trying to respond to RIPersoni with my post. It ended up in the general comments
Lordy. Those are almost slippered? Is that seriously the way they have horses feet at (I am assuming) arab shows? Shall I assume saddle seat?
I got my horse from the person who got him off the track. Racehorses are shod with long toes so they can “grip” the surface and pull themselves along faster (at least, that’s the theory. sarcasm dripping here). When they arrive from the track, they often have “beat up joints” and navicular changes due to the very shoeing/trimming practices that supposedly made them faster runners.
Sigh. I had my horse about 18 months before the changes became evident. He had learned to compensate for his sore front feet but when the toe length was corrected and he saw the chiropractor and we had a few other “changes” in his lifestyle and way of going, he began to show signs that he was “off.”
The first vet who did the pre-purchase examination had been out of vet school about two months. She pronounced the horse sound. The SECOND vet, who knew what he was doing, came out and we had a lameness exam that included x-rays of both fronts and the right knee. He started us on a six-year journey of corrective shoeing, hoof injections, and today my horse is sound and happy, wearing Natural Balance steel-lite shoes to help with the breakover. Occasionally he needs shockwave treatments for bone spurs, but we haven’t done hoof injections in years. He is making his own fluid in the navicular bursa, and his hoof walls are strong (so his heels aren’t crushing anymore).
I know about angles. I know more about hoof trims, shoes, balance — all that stuff — than I ever thought I would NEED to know, but it has been a very happy journey for me because my horse is sound. My shoer has been with me from the beginning, too. The vet showed me the results of the x-rays after the initial lameness exam and said to tell my shoer to call him because he had a plan for getting the horse sound.
The shoer agreed to call the vet: “I’ll call him right now and see him tomorrow morning if he’s available.” I offered to pay the shoer and he said, “You never have to pay me to learn.”
Vet and shoer both have been on my horse’s “Team” for a dozen years. It ain’t broke (though I’ve come close ;o), and I ain’t gonna change NUTHIN’.
Thank you for posting your story. I have an ottb who was just diagnosed with bone loss due to years of being kept w/ long toes and crushed heels. We’ve just started our journey to soundness (hopefully), and your story gives me hope. Thank you.
Myhorsefaith, you are most welcome.
Remember, bone grows and is replaced just like skin cells, hair, and, sadly, FAT cells ;o) My horse came with two different sized front feet; the right was smaller — meaning more navicular involvement — than the left. The navicular bone was almost invisible in the x-rays. We now have radiographic proof that there is real, honest to goodness navicular bone, and BOTH front feet are the same size, now.
Get your vet’s recommendation for a balanced diet, and ask for his/her recommendations for joint and hoof supplements. My vet is a fan of Platinum Performance. He sells it to his clients for the retail fee, but doesn’t charge us the shipping, so it’s a savings. I haven’t used it because I’m finishing up the supplements I have on hand. Every supplement I have ever fed my horse has been either suggested or approved by my vet.
I did not feed alfalfa hay for years because the horse didn’t need the sugar, but now he gets alfalfa in the evenings (so I’m not RIDING the sugar). A.m. feeding is Bermuda grass and “lunch” is 3-way grain hay.
Grain or “goody bucket” is alfalfa pellets (Secate brand), rice bran, soybean pellets, and a bit of alfalfa-and-molasses. Supplements include a probiotic, vitamin E powder, joint supplement, MSM, granulated garlic, and a Chinese herbal powder called Body Sore (horse has a roach back and issues with lower back pain). The Body Sore was recommended by the acupuncture vet (different than “my vet”). MSM and garlic are for his breathing issues, and the garlic also keeps the flies from biting.
Your vet and shoer must work as a team. No egos.
My horse went from “modified elevated egg bar shoes” to egg bar shoes with pads to egg bar shoes without pads to aluminum Natural Balance shoes (that wore down to the point they cracked between shoeing) to the steel-lite version that can, on occasion, be reset. He wears those today. The shoer also leaves the frog thick because the horse stepping on the frog improves/increases circulation within the foot and THAT is important, too. He just cleans up the area but doesn’t pare the frog down. He also leaves the sole thick — doesn’t pare down to “make it pretty.” This is per the vet’s instructions.
Good luck with your OTTB. And don’t give up hope. The damage is done very quickly. Repair takes a lot longer.
LOL…I was told that the long toes lengthen the stride. I had no idea it was so they could grip better! So we should all stop trimming our toenails so we can run faster and be able to scamper up tree trunks like monkeys. What nonsense!
My OTTB has long sloping pasterns, so by keeping his toes long, he was forced to carry most of his weight on his tendons and ligaments instead of the hoof. He developed the typical chronic supsensory problems that so many TBs have and was always out of the money. The idiot trainer thought he could fix the problem by changing his equipment or entering him in longer races. It’s a miracle he didn’t break down on the track.
My farrier has worked wonders by trimming him every 5 weeks and keeping the angles correct. His heels are growing back, and he’s been staying sound while going barefoot. I’ve heard that this style of trim is no longer in fashion, but given the ignorance I’ve encountered on the backside, I doubt this is the case
OTTBs are notorious for coming off the track with too much toe and no heel. Then we spend years fixing it.
I know a Thoroughbred who has a long toe and a low heel, never set foot on a race track and was never trimmed to be like that. She goes perfectly sound barefoot at 21. (She has some other issues, but her feet are incredible for a TB). I think the issue is that they *start* with a long toe and low heel, that that’s natural conformation for a horse bred to go very fast over a relatively short distance…and then people go ‘If a somewhat long toe and low heel is fast, then a really long toe and long heel will be faster’.
I think that’s how we end up with a lot of these problems. TBs are *supposed* to have a longer toe and lower heel than say a stock horse, but not to that extreme.
I had a chance to glance at the Quarter horse official magazine last month.
In it is a series of photos on how to wrap a horse’s legs properly.
The horse is sporting the same miserable feet and long hooves as in your picture.
Horses have no chance in hell to grow old comfortable like my 32 year old Morgan; 29 year old former Quarter show horse and 25 year old Appie with feet like that. All sound.
It was especially disappointing because novice owners will copy that style of feet thinking that all the BIG names/owners do it and it is endorsed by the AQHA.
It reminds me also of the unbelievable long hooves shown on the front of Apple Saddlery catalog last year OUCH!!!!!
Good grief, and I’m feeling guilty because Pan could maybe use a trim soon. People doing this on purpose blows my mind.
On another note, I am – this is extremely preliminary – thinking of buying a certain piece of property and starting a small equine retirement facility to complement my own upcoming retirement. Can readers point me to one or two that they know are well-run, in hopes that I could consult with them to get an idea of what they have found works well, and the likelihood of success? There aren’t any on-line, print-ready business models for equine retirement homes – funny thing about that.
Or maybe not so funny.
Cassandra…awesome idea! This has been a dream of mine as my old mare has a fabulous retirement situation and I love the fact she is living out her days stress free, with acres of grass, equine senior and love and attention. I dream of providing this for others when I see her lookin soooo good at 31.
On the other hand, I have heard retirement places are tough due to crappy owners. Often they mistake “retirement facility” for “dumping ground”. All the sudden there is no money for board, farrier and/or vet care. Even though retirement board may be the most important board check they ever write, so many people use the outta sight, outta mind technique. It is a win for them to abandon the horse as anyone that has a heart to open a retirement facility would never let the horse suffer, not for a day. My fear is that in the end I would end up with a bunch of retirees and no board money coming in to help care for them. People abandon perfectly sound “going” horses in show facilities, can you imagine how easy it would be to do that with an oldie?
Having said all that, I still have the dream. I just have to be smart when the time comes and know there are some pretty aweful people out there and that those abandoned horses NEED ME! Good Luck and I so hope you do it!
I would love to do that as well, if I’m ever lucky enough to own my own land.
What about charging an up front euthenasia fee, kind of like a deposit? Write in into the contract that if the owner abandons the horse you have the right to have the horse put down (after a set amount of days without the owners attempt to contact you/return/answer calls). That way you are protected from getting stick with more horses than you can care for and avoid the worry of trying to re-home an old timer. I would imagine it would have to be one very well worded contract with plenty of legal review/input, but it might be a start…?
Actually, there is a book about starting/running an equine rescue, written by the operator of a successful rescue (Bluebonnet) — the rescue has been somewhat inactive since one of the gulf hurricanes totalled their facility and home, but I’ve heard good things about the book.
Of course, I can’t recall the title at this moment, but searching “equine rescue” or “horse rescue” on Amazon should bring it up –
Uhhhh, BLUEBONNET is alive, well and very active. They had one of their best attendances at their fall Expo last year……
Sorry, I know Jen has had a lot of good events– I was just trying to skip the whole history and get to the book.
Yikes. Angles aside, those shoes are way too small. The shoe needs to extend back under the bulb of the heel for support. Any GOOD saddleseat farrier knows that.
“Saddle seat” feet may run longer but they are certainly not supposed to have shoes that don’t fit or crap-ass angles like that. I know many horses that were shown for years with longer feet and are still sound. It would not be my ideal, but longer feet can be done better than in that photo.
Of course, the scary pads and built up, weighted shoes -wish they were just banned.
That said, I truly think the majority of our horses today can go barefoot. I do think it is better for their circulation in the limbs, but I don’t think nails ruin horse feet. I don’t think shoes are evil, just mostly unnecessary for what our horses do.
I agree that a lot of ppl are scared by barefoot trimmers b/c of the Strasser method or other too-short, lame inducing trims. Our farrier is a bit of a geek (over the top foot fetish), but she does a good job, really takes time to evaluate the foot and is one of the few that actually watches the horse move at a walk and a trot before and during/after her trim. It kills me that so few farriers do this..
She is also the only farrier I know (she refuses to be called a farrier, but whatever) that drives a Prius. hee hee
Sorry about this OT post. Yesterday, I saw a listing for a thoroughbred ( http://texashorse.org/id26.html) at an organization that has received some very unflattering reviews when it was run by the previous owner.
I queried the horses pedigree (http://www.pedigreequery.com/dj+black) and found that he had been retired/rescued/rehomed by a group in Texas (http://www.teamkeen.com/).
I contacted Remember Me Rescue and got an immediate response thanking me for the information. They contacted the current owners and it is obvious that this guy is at risk (the current owners bought him from a local killer sale).
Remember Me Rescue currently has room to take DJ back in and are trying to raise funds for his repurchase. If you would like to assist, please contact Donna Keen at remembermerescue@live.com. Her phone number is also listed on her website.
I do not know Donna nor have I had any experience with Remember Me Rescue (I adopted my OTTB from LOPE). I am impressed though, that they have responded so quickly and are ready to take DJ back in.
This type of foot is so common on gaited horses, especially in the south, that it’s nearly unremarkable. Many would even consider that a “trail foot” for a particularly pacey TWH.
It’s disgusting.
Wow. That would NEVER be a trail foot on my Walkers, even if they paced like a Standardbred straight from the track. (And one does when he thinks he can get away with it, like when my bf is on him!)
I don’t show but I rode endurance. Hooves were in the top few concerns, to keep them perfect was our goal . . . even when not racing. We paid a pretty penny for a well-known endurance savvy and smart farrier. Kind of ironic that I saw horses come up lame anyway because they were ridden way too hard, way too fast, way too young . . . all that money to keep their hooves in great shape just to ruin their joints pounding daily to get the horses in the shape they thought they needed to place. I know this isn’t all endurance people . . . the crowd I was around soured me on endurance a bit though. Just pleasure riding now . . . Western Oregon is great trail riding!
Does the long hoof just give more dramatic movement to a show horse? Curious as to what is worth risking the rest of the leg for.
That’s just sad. The rules for AERC Endurance require a horse to be 4yo to ride an “LD” rode (up to 30 miles I believe) and 5yo to ride an “Endurance” ride (50+ miles).
NATRC (North American Trail Ride Conference, does Competitive Trail Rides), of which I am a member and active competitor, requires a horse to be 4yo to compete in a 40 mile ride and 5yo to compete in a 60 mile or longer ride.
These requirements both use a horse’s actual birth date.
Now, I will say this- IN MY OPINION if you are careful and methodical about training and conditioning, it is possible to safely get a 4yo horse fit enough to complete 1 or two competitions towards the END of their 4yo year. A Novice NATRC ride is mostly walking, and the mileage is spread over 2 days. At a LD endurance ride, you also have the option to go slower and take care of your young horse.
But, to be able to compete a just-turned-4yo horse in either discipline, would require a level of conditioning in the 3yo year that I personally, am not comfortable with.
To compete a horse in 50 to 100-mile endurance rides takes a level of conditioning that SHOULD take years to achieve. The horse can handle the mileage if properly conditioned. The problem is, many people don’t realize that just because a horse can handle the distance metabolically, does NOT mean that their skeleton is similarly fit. It takes years for the skeleton to build up bone density and mass and become fit enough to handle the rigors of extreme endurance riding and conditioning. A 5yo horse that’s not started under saddle until at least 3, and not worked very hard until it’s 4, as it should be, has NOT had enough time to build the strength of bones and joints that is necessary to stay sound through 50+mile competitions and all the conditioning that goes along with it.
This is a pet issue of mine, I could go on a serious rant… but i will refrain. I will say this, though- anyone interested in distance riding of any kind, even just long pleasure trail rides, should get a copy of Dr. Nancy Loving’s book, “Go the Distance” as it is a great overview of all the different aspects of horse care and management you need to be knowledgable on and consider when training for and competing in distance events.
Taking good care of hooves is a top priority of most distance riders, myself included. I actually trim my own horses’ feet and keep them barefoot, which has worked well for me so far.
Yes, the long toe does give the horse an advantage in saddleseat classes. This set up doesn’t cause a horse to trip (how ridiculous) but it is complicated and very expensive. These horses are confined because they can’t be allowed to run around with the shoeing package. $350 and up is the going rate around here (every 30 days max).
However, the photo shown just looks like a very overgrown hoof that hasn’t had a farrier’s attention in a long time. I’ve boarded at Arab barns specializing in Park, English Please and Country and not a single horse had feet looking like this. Longish toes and high wedges, yes, but the shoes where always slightly wider than the foot and they wore multiple pads. The rules state the toe can only be 4.5″ long (for a purebred & 5″ for a partbred) and the shoes plus pads can’t weigh more than 16oz. All champions & reserves are checked after each and every class.
There are several horses that have won on a National level in Park well into their teens. To those who claim a properly shod saddleseat horse is going to be lame from the shoeing I say, show me the proof. Far more broken down racehorses and QH western pleasure types around in my experience. They don’t call WP the “navicular shufffle” for nothing.
See AR 103 Shoeing Regulations for more information:
http://www.arabianhorses.org/competitions/shoeing_regulations.asp
I definitely think there is a RIGHT way to shoe a saddleseat horse. To me, this is just so unbalanced. You have to have heel if you have this much toe. The horse has to still have the angles correct even with a longer toe. This is just a path straight to serious, crippling lameness and there are a lot of horses at the shows that do look like this.
Agree. I think it’s fantastic that arabs have shoeing restrictions and I wish the saddlebred world would follow. It keeps people from being tempted to cross a line they know they shouldn’t. There are some benefits to the lack of restrictions when you have a special case, but for the most part, people just abuse the freedom.
What other saddle seat people on here are saying is true: this is just a bad shoe job and isn’t all that typical (though not exactly rare either). Shoes should extend far enough back to provide support (as arabtrainer said, plumb line from the heel bulb) though this pic is small enough that maybe they do and I can’t see it. The angles should also be in line with the horse’s natural angle. However, there are some that like to use lower angles than they should because it gives the horse more upward snap when he breaksover – it’s rather hard on the suspensories and joints though, as it’s not how the horse was naturally put on the ground. This horse definitely has multiple issues with his shoe job, and it’s not even a good “bad” shoe job, haha. Meaning, even if the intention was to lower the angles and increase toe length for better action (which can be “bad”), well, this isn’t very well executed…
This horse honestly looks more typical of what you sometimes see in an ASB country pleasure class – you can’t use pads in that class, but there is no limit on weight or toe length. Pads can help maintain a long foot and also increase length. When you can’t use a pad but still want a long toe, sometimes you get some bad looking feet because the hoof can’t stay healthy and balanced at that length without a pad to keep everything together. The best option is to not get let the toe grow to that point, but, as I’ve said before, people love their crutches in the show ring, and foot length is one of them.
Overall, I think the arab world tends to do a better job because of shoeing rules than the saddlebred world. However, in my experience, saddlebreds often have better feet than arabs (just a broad generalization, not true of every arab by any means) and people can get away with doing more crap to them for that reason (and also because of the lack of restrictions).
Not all saddle seat shoe jobs are bad. Most are actually quite good, and a good saddle seat farrier generally really really knows his feet. I’d rather have a saddle seat farrier work on my dressage horse’s feet than a WP farrier any day, in general, again, another broad generalization = ) It’s those that take advantage of the lack of restrictions or really push the rule limits that make everyone else look bad.
What they said.
I agree, There is no way that these feet are legal.
Fantasia, that remark is beyond ludicrous.
To say that long feet will not cause stumbling is so stupid that I cannot even think of an answer to it!
All I can say is “Only in America”….sorry, folks but this sort of abuse would be prosecuted for cruelty in Europe, it is a shame to see America lagging so far behind the rest of the world in this sort of thing, you should be leading the way, not corrupting the paths.
Kirri, the feet in th original post look like they are too long to be withing th legal limit. However, to say that any horse with a foot longer that what you are used to will stumble is silly. You tube half-arab park at US Nationals. Those horses have a an average of a 4 1/2 to 5 inch toe and they sure aren’t stumbling
I asked my farrier about putting a “show package” on my Arab and he said, “Sure, but you will have to keep it stalled with no turn out, or he will pull the shoes.” I said, “No thanks. My horses all go outside everyday, all day long.” Just that alone was enough to stop me, not to mention the expense ($250 each time) and the risk to their legs and my neck should my horse trip over those toes. However, the Arabian “show package” shoes are NOTHING compared to what is done to the “Big Lick’ TW and the Saddlebreds. Many of them stand on deformed feet and horribly painful feet that an Arabian would refuse to take one step in. While it is horrible to shoe an Arab like the photo shows, it is a CRIME what is allowed by us to be done to the TW horses.
Let’s not lump ASBs in with TWHs… Saddlebreds don’t currently have shoeing limits like the arabs (though I think they should consider it ASAP), but they hardly have feet like TWHs. I grew up showing arabs and ASBs in saddle seat, and the shoeing issue is just one of several reasons I’m transitioning over to dressage and jumping. I was spoiled growing up working with my grandmother who was a longtime trainer and loved saddle seat horses. Our horses had longer feet than you’d see on a hunter or WP horse, as most saddle seat horses do, but they were never extreme and were always very balanced. Our farrier was a genius, and he spent many hours with my grandmother determining the best possible course of action for each horse and their particular feet. However, when I started working for other professionals, I realized few had the ethics I grew up with, and I got rather discouraged.
Unfortunately, because there are no shoeing limits in the saddlebred world, some do take it too far (but again, nothing like you see in the TWH world). I personally think overly heavy shoes create a very ugly gait even if they might give you an extra half inch of action… Saddle seat horses are bred to have an extreme gait as it is, and it can be quite lovely without too much artificial intervention. Heavy shoes and too long feet create soundness issues and a forced looking gait.
I’m not going to say I see a problem with all long feet because I’ve known many many saddle seat horses to show on longer feet (well balanced and not too heavy a shoe) for years and still be sound and happy at 25 years old. But it is true that because some are rather unscrupulous about their use of long feet and heavy shoes to create action that some horses get used up far before they should. Horses shown on these feet are often considered over the hill after they hit 10 or 11. They may require more “maintenance” meds than they should at that age. Plus, few of theses horses in extreme shoes are properly conditioned before they get these straining shoes thrown on. That creates even more issues.
Anyway, long post short, not all long feet are bad. Not all pads are bad (and not all horses with pads are unsound). Any shoeing extreme can create issues, and I think the saddle seat world and breed show world in general needs to realize they don’t do enough to discourage poor training techniques.
Sorry, but I can’t help but say something when I see “big lick Walker” and “Saddlebred” used in the same sentence… A lot of people assume that the same things that are done to the big licks are also done to Saddlebreds, but that couldn’t be farther from the truth. Saddlebreds actually were bred to move the way they do, unlike TWHs.
WGC ASB from 1948:
WGC ASB from a few years ago: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_q0y3aFaaLas/RufrwGIkcKI/AAAAAAAAAcM/mL3p-QyEXHA/s400/Casey's%2BFinal%2BCountdown.jpg
WGC TWH from 1946:
WGC TWH from a few years ago:
Saddlebred trainers use their methods to enhance their show horses humanely (90% of the time), just like every other breed and every other discipline. The TWH trainers took those methods and exaggerated them WAY past the point of cruelty to create the “big lick” horse.
Ding ding ding!
That modern TWH image is revolting.
Excuse my ignorance, but I thought these horses were bred for long days of riding, covering a lot of ground… high end action in the front and sitting on the damn thing’s kidneys looks anything but comfortable or efficient…
Mleh. Sad.
I try to have an open mind about other disciplines but I gotta admit, I see nothing appealing about the look of the modern “Big Lick” Walker. Does not look like fun for man or beast.
Sorry, I dont mean to be so horrible/negative/nasty, but there’s just nothing natural about that image. Like you said Fugs, it doesnt look good for anyone involved.
Can someone explain “big lick” to me? Again, I claim complete ignorance.
Ok. I just used the magical intrawebz and answered my own question. I am now doubly-horrified. Ick ick ick!
Ok. promise I will stop after this, but couldnt resist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=HGgU3LRS_PU
Wow. Just, wow.
Ugh. Why are the riders so often hunched and why do they have their feet by the horse’s shoulders? Ugh.
is it just me, or does anyone else notice the similarity?
Monty Pythons’ Ministry of Silly Walks
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7f/Ministry_of_Silly_Walks.jpg
Big Lick TWH horse and rider
http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/images/270×224/animals/horses/tn_walking_horses_270x224.jpg
BTW, long time lurker, first time poster – so hello Fugly & hello everyone
Agreed–”big lick” riding is just gross. I’ve been to the “training barns” in Tennessee and Mississippi and even some from my home state of Utah and seen some pretty nasty stuff done to these poor TWHs. However… I dare you to take a trail ride on one of my TWHs–they are barefoot and still win ribbons in shows–up in the mountains. You’ll never want to ride anything else ever again.
I have trotting horses, too, and I took my wonderful young QH on a 13 mile ride on rocky terrain in the mountains (he’s also barefoot–and sound). While he’s a sweetheart and I enjoyed the ride, my butt STILL hurts, and it’s been 4 days! There’s just nothing like the glide ride of a TWH… 
That said–I’ve seen some pretty awful crap done to the hooves of saddlebreds even at local shows. They may not be quite as atrocious at the big lick TWHs, but they’re still pretty awful. I don’t think the, “we’re bad, but not THAT bad” excuse works very well.
Are you replying to me? When did I say anything about us being bad? I’m saying that we have about as many problems as any other breed – excluding the TWH. They’re on a level of their own.
ALSO note that the poor big lick horse is a) 3 years old and b) what the heck is that bit? and c) that creepy looking guy looks …. UGH.
Yes, TWHs AND ASBs were – like all gaited horses – originally bred to carry their owners over miles of rugged terrain, comfortably. Posting wasn’t invented until the 18th century (I THINK), so riding horses and mules were bred to “amble,” which is pretty much the forbear of all our manmade gaits.
Do you remember the book “Album of Horses,” by Marguerite Henry, with the beautiful full-page full-color illustrations by Wesley Dennis? The TWH chapter starts out with a painting of an Appalachian “circuit rider” and a little story about the traveling preacher writing a sermon while his trusty horse stepped along, comfy and surefooted, through the back country.
12 years old is OLD?
Pathetic, considering how many Arabs in their 20s I’ve seen perfectly sound, packing kids around the ring, packing adults around fairly rigorous trails, all rock-solid sound.
That Quick Silver Bey horse is GOOOORGEOUS.
And…. Big time Saddle Seat style in all breeds is now as wacky and harmful to horses as Stock Horse western pleasure has gotten.
Quick Silver Bey is also a champion in hand horse. =]
Arabtrainer- there was no plan in these feet. They’re long for more action exclusively. And although pads can help, they are now used to add length. (Why the hell would you use 3 or 4 pads?) I was at the show where this photo was taken, and as I mentioned, there were A LOT of horses that looked JUST like this one. They amended the rules for toe length so now there seems to be a free-for-all, especially in the half arab division (which is the pictured horse). Every trainer that I’ve seen in the Northwest does an exaggerated shoeing, with the exception of reining horses are just more conservative weights.
Appy person that commented to my post- I wish your appy could beat this horse but more likely no. This is what I run into. I will never be consistently placing because my horse moves differently and without the same amount of flash. But as I mentioned, she does sometimes win, and she generally places in the top half. Good enough for me. She is turning 14 this year and is very sound. I also endurance on her:-) Frankly, have you guys seen the endurance horses? 20 is not uncommon out there. Those horses go for a long time, but they are all about comfort in those horses. If your horse isn’t in top shape, you get pulled. Keep in mind, they are working FAR harder than the show horses.
As far as AHA sport horse, I see those packages there too!!!!! At least in our Region. WTF? Honestly, this is cheating in my eyes. However, I will admit it is not nearly as common as in the main ring.
Ponykins- yes, its for movement. Its higher, and in hunters where the toe goes very flat, it has a nice flick. Also, the horses are often weighted are run tall in the backs as well. They even do that to the western horses which always leaves me scratching my head. Other than that, there is zero function to that.
I went to one local Arab sport horse show last year and Sport Horse Nationals. I can’t recall seeing one person with bands/stacks on their horse. Of course I wasn’t really looking for it – but I watched a heck of a lot of in hand classes and some performance. Will pay closer attention this year.
I do think it is ultra weird to see people showing main ring hunter pleasure with bands/stacks. Somewhat like watching hunt pleasure at Congress – in both cases the horses are under hunt style tack but would you really want to go jumping cross country with them? I think not.
Cuz they’re not “hunters” in any way, shape or form, either AQHA or Arab.
It blew me away when I first learned about Arabian “hunt seat” and “dressage,” and then the actual hunter and dressage people had to make up the whole Sport Horse thing.
I mean, um, it IS a hunter or it is NOT a hunter. Same with AQHA, but not enough H/J/Dressage people care to go to AQHA shows PERIOD, apparently, so you can’t even get a “Sport Horse” equivalent there.
It’s just weird, yes yes yes.
I remember hearing they amended the shoeing rules in the arab world recently. Are there no length limits now but weight and/or pad limits? Then this kind of foot would make more sense. As I said before, you sometimes see feet like this in the country pleasure division for ASBs because there is no length limit but you can’t use pads and certain types of shoes, so the trainers don’t have as much stuff to hold together the looong toes and keep them balanced.
Ugh, I remember thinking the length limit could be a bit longer for some of the really big half arabs, but there was no reason to do away with it entirely. Sheesh.
I agree with you. There was no plan in these feet. They are a mess. If there actually were many horses with feet like this, then perhaps they were from the same barn or use the same farrier due to being in the same area. If, however, you can’t tell the difference between a good shoeing job and “Oh my god. They all have show packages and I don’t and that’s why I can’t win anything” then I take issue . It is not a free for all. There are rules regarding shoeing. The shoeing rules were changed to allow a 5 1/2 inch foot on the half arabs mostly in response to the dutch harness horse crosses that have become more popular in recent years and tend to be bigger horses who need a longer foot to stay sound. They also changed the rules so that a tool can be used to test the thickness and width of a shoe to determine weight, rather than rip the shoe off to weigh it, as was previously done to every single National Champion and Reserve and one random Top Ten for every class. Again, to benefit the horses, not to make them lame.
Okay, so at least there’s still a limit. Are the rules for the NSH still the same? Sorry, I grew up riding arabs and then phased out into mostly saddlebreds, so it’s been a few years now since I’ve been active on the arab circuit. I still have a couple of trainer friends that have some arabs in the barn, and I’m always interested in rule changes (I used to sit and read the USEF rulebook for fun as a little kid, haha). Nice that they don’t have to tear the shoes off anymore, that was obnoxious and not great for the shoe job. 5 1/2 is reasonable for the half arabs, I think. We always used to gripe when we’d have a 16.2 half arab with naturally big feet and he’d look like he had pony feet at regulation length, haha.
I meant to say 4 1/2 inches for a purebred and 5 inches for a hlaf arab. Show season and foaling season at the same time does bad things to my tired eyes and brain.
Please educate me on the term “Big Lick”. When I was a kid I was at a Saddlebred/Shetland barn. Big time trainer at the time (he now trains Arabs) and we went to tons of shows with TW. I don’t recall the term being used then, however that means nothing since I don’t remember what I had for lunch yesterday.
I understand what Big Lick is attached to, but I would like to know how that came about. They were just as nasty and abusive back then as they are now.
Big LIck.. sigh.. aka “performance” in the world of TWHBEA. Midnight Sun was one of the most amazing TN walkers ever lived — he had a high-stepping, big-strided gait au-naturale… and his gait was a square, even, fourbeat WONDER. Big Lick apparently began as an attempt to imitate what THAT horse had… and despite his genes running in most TWH’s today (his name often appears multiple times in a pedigree if you go back several generations) nobody, it seems, has come close.
If you want to see examples of TWH’s doing their various gaits.. this is a ‘good’ source:
http://www.twhbea.us/gaitsVideo.htm
The ‘performance’ gait videos will show you what ‘big lick’ is all about. Some people LOVE it — I say, it’s an aquired taste. (One which I doubt I will *ever* aquire!)
So horses ways of going are ‘supplemented’ by the use of training techniques that sore the hooves (yes, it still happens despite the laws prohibiting it.. they’ve just found less obvious ways to sore them) and stacks which throw the natural balance of the horse a little ‘off’ in ways that help the gait be ‘spectacular’ (while ventroflexing the horse, I might add) and heavy shoes which also ‘enhance’ the gait.
These horses are ridden with a kind of strange crouch, behind, and that high stepping far reaching monstrous maneuver in front. Their headset is held high… and since a nodding head is part of a true Walking Horse flatwalk and running walk, many of the horses you see in competition have been trained to nod, even if they are not moving in ways that the nod comes naturally.
When horses are ‘contained’ (as opposed to collected) their backs drop and they naturally pick the feet up higher… they look quite flashy… and that is what is considered desireable in the ‘performance’ classes of TWH’s. Most would be pacey (laterally-moving) if not for the high stacks, pads, and heavy shoes. Pacing, btw, is undesireable. It’s hard to ride, it requires ventroflexion which is not good for the horse’s back or longterm soundness.. and a horse that is pacing finds it hard to be supple and bend properly. But.. so what if the horse has no lateral flexibility, if all it’s going to do is sashay up and down the aisle at the barn (‘training”) or around a ring at a show.
The end result is that today, few TWH’s have pure, fourbeat, square gaits in the flatwalk and running walk. Pacing horses with high stacks and artificial gaits have won the title WGC (World Grand Champion — always given to stacked, padded horses) and people seem to think a lot of WGCs on the pedigree is a ‘good thing’. Ain’t necessarily so. Who wants a horse with lots of genes from a pacey, hot, narrow stallion?
Many of the horses that have been on stacks (BIg Lick) come out ok in the end.. but MANY have hock issues from a very young age. Some have mouths that have been ruined by hard hands and long shanks on their bits. Many have no trust in people… the ex big lick horse I co owned for awhile had to be crosstied and bribed for over a year to get her to take a bit… once she’d learned her new job, she remained reactive and spooky — but she’d reach and put her head in the bridle, grabbing the bit gently, herself. She obviously preferred ‘trail horse’ over ‘show horse’ hands down.
TWHBEA is paying a lot of lip service to trying to stamp out soring — but according to my friends in the organization, it still goes on. People who are involved in showing ‘this way’ will deny it till they die, but it is there… that’s where the money and glory are, apparently. When trainers who have been banned as a consequence for soring end up on boards — there’s a problem. When the Walking Horse Celebration is shut down before a WGC is named — because the federal inspectors arrived, thus inspiring numerous ‘high level ‘competitors to withdraw and leave the premesis… there’s a problem.
Unfortunately, many people just TWH”s by what they see in those gruesome ‘big lick’ photos or video (or while observing at shows) That’s a shame. Walkers are NOT ‘hot blooded fire breathing blood-sweating monsters’.. they tend to be quite personable in ‘real life’. I think their natural laid-back nature is part of how the whole mess of padded/stacked/possibly sored horses has gone as far as it has — the horses put up with a whole lot more than say, thoroughbreds or arabs would.
Thanks for that explanation. I always wondered…
When I was a kid, Midnight Sun was my absolute FAVORITE breyer model.
When I was a teen, in the 80′s, chains and giant stacked shoes were still legal (although I can’t remember if soring had been outlawed by then or not). There’s a large horse show in Germantown every year which has hunters during the day and gaited horses at night, with usually a jumper class as the last thing of the day before turning it over to the gaited folks. I was riding my Appie Open Jumper that year, and heading out of the warm up arena, we passed a Big Lick Walker, nodding like crazy, front stacked way up high and crouching behind, going ka-chang-chang-chang like Marley’s Ghost dragging his chains! My Appaloosa was normally the most easy-going creature on the planet, but he just about flipped over backwards. He didn’t recognize that thing as a horse and he didn’t want any part of it!
The last clip… with the cantering, padded TWH… That LOOKS painful.
Poor horse. Heels are bad enough for humans, but all that weight on their front legs, plus some jerk on their back and probably trying to pull his jaw off… Ugh.
I never showed in breed shows but competed successfully on my OTTB over fences until he was 19 and arthritis finally caught up with him, we even did some super low level eventing in his teens. What is it wil breed shows that produce such strange ideals? Not just Arab/Saddlebred, but Paints and QH’s too. One reason I love H/J and Dressage, its normal to have a horse competing at high levels well into their teens, they don’t hit thier prime until their teens.
What is the OBVIOUS red flag that should be visible to anyone who has read the most basic horse care book — THE most basic — is that the photo appears to show a dramatic change in angle from pastern to hoof. Shoeing 101 is that the pastern and hoof must be at the same angle (you all knew that, I know). That looks like “how to cripple a horse in the shortest possible time …” (It makes my bad knee hurt to look at it, as it suggests the hyperextension permitted by my missing ACL and the damage to the other ligaments in that joint …)
Someone mentioned they expected their horses to stay sound until they were 18 — well, I have always expected that, barring actual injury, my horses stay sound for life. Yes, some horses, like some people, might develop arthritis that requires help — in their mid-20s or older … I had a 27-year-old win a top ten in performance the week before he passed; I had a 31-year-old who actually shattered several of his knee bones in his teens (freak accident in a show venue stall) — but stayed sound for about 4 more years, had a year of ouchyness as the knee fused, and then was no longer perfectly “square” (the arc of that leg didn’t match the other) but essentially sound and rideable for the rest of his life without corrective shoeing and would have been very sad if he wasn’t ridden.
I’ve had Arabians for decades and don’t really want anything else — but I’m appalled at what is going on at the regular (non-sport) shows. Horses with BANDS on their shoes, like a walker in stacks!
And don’t get me started on the trainer/judges. Changing that would go far toward helping to correct so much is what is wrong with our Class A shows these days.
I have a sound 30 year old and she played POLO. I’m sorry, but polo should be way more strenuous than showing! She has a gorgeous ROUND hoof (don’t get me started on this damn trend of wanting to shoe them narrow) and has never taken a lame step except for being injured once from getting her coronet band stepped on.
Exactly.
I hate the fact that our barn has a horse who requires heavy supplementation to stay sound at 18. Lovely horse. I suspect he was broken too young…when they got him, he was 17 and ‘sound for light work only’. With a change of supplementation, he does very well, but he does have stiff days. I hate even more that another horse was retired at the same age due to *severe* arthritis. The kind of thing I’d expect to see in a 35 year old. It then died of a stroke…nobody else believes me, but I think that he died *because* he was retired. He HATED it. He would stare at the bridles on the wall with this incredibly wistful and pathetic look…he still wanted to work. And if he hadn’t been…well. We don’t know what happened to him. In contrast, a TB cross bred at that establishment was retired at 34 and is still comfortable and happy (He has an arthritic shoulder that tends to lock up solid, making him unsafe to ride, but he’s in no significant pain).
I expect a horse to have stiff days in its twenties, not its teens. And sure, a LOT of old working horses do get arthritis. Same as human athletes. There’s plenty you can do to keep them sounder for longer.
Mickey Mouse was packing kids around the day before he died. He couldn’t canter or jump any more…he was sound, but he just got, you know, stiff. His estimated age? *48*.
Somebody freaked out when told he was still in work, and I was like ‘Why the heck not? He’s sound and still occasionally tries to take off with the kids’. No, I don’t expect *every* horse to be sound and working into their thirties…there are genetics involved too, but I have met plenty of horses and ponies that were QUITE capable of doing light work and even sometimes full work at those kinds of ages.
We’ve made a LOT of progress in equine gerontological medicine. Give them that extra year at the start and let them benefit from it.
Jennifer R, I’m 42 years old, with no history of serious injuries, have taken care of myself well, and have serious rheumatoid arthritis. Unless horses somehow manage to exist without anything in common with the entire rest of the animal kingdom, it’s not valid to blame all differences in the way different horses age on the owners. A huge portion is genetic. And science is only just beginning to scratch the surface of why inflammatory illness works as it does in people, much less animals, which get much less funding for research.
I didn’t mean to imply it was *always* ill treatment, and I did mention genetics.
(It bothers me a LOT, lot LOT that Big Brown is being bred. Those hooves should not be perpetuated, period!)
Fugly, Instead of trashing the horse and making fun of the owner, why don’t you TRY to personally contact the owner and educate them yourself about the proper care of the horse. THe owner may be a new owner and may not know. I know I’d rather someone by nice to me and help me rather than post a picture and trash my horse.
I actually don’t know who the person is, myself. And I didn’t want to embarrass them in particular because there is a lot of this out there. This was just a particularly clear example of it.
BTW if I did do that, let me tell you how it would go:
“Well MY TRAINER said that’s how you do it and we have the BEST farrier in the state, everybody is lining up to get their feet done by him, he doesn’t even take new customers, he’s the BEST, and who the fuck are you and what the fuck have YOU won?”
There’s a reason I have this blog. For years I tried to politely – and yes, I am capable of it – educate. I got told to fuck off and mind my own business seven ways from Sunday. OK, fine, now I’m gonna say exactly what I think.
Being able to judge what kind of farrior you need also makes all the difference in the world for a horse. I have one horse that is 20 years old, has never had shoes on that the local farrior can work on. Then on the other hand, I have an older halter horse I bought and I fly a farrior in every five weeks to shoe him because of the calibur of farrior he is. (All this horses problems is man made because of how he was shod in earlier years)
Horse owners can and should know what a healthy hoof looks like, and how to attain it. There are so many well-researched resources…online, in-print and at clinics…there’s little excuse for not knowing what’s good and what’s not. Here’s the best book I can recommend for average horse owners: (http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Hoof-Horse-Health-Ground/dp/0964598272/ref=cm_cr_rdp_orig_subj) The Sound Hoof: Horse Health From the Ground Up by Lisa Simons Lancaster. I found the book to be an unbiased look at what’s best for the individual horse and owner; whether the horse has shoes or not isn’t the primary focus of the book. She mostly discusses proper alignment and various proven methods for dealing with pathologies. The information she offers is easily understood but rarely given to a non-professional audience. This information can help owners not only know what’s best for their horse, but give them the confidence to make sure their horse gets what they need. Farriers need to stop treating owners like they don’t know anything, and horse owners need to stop allowing that behavior.
here’s one I’ve always wondered about… check out the difference between his front and back hooves. Are they compensating for a low front end on him?
http://northernhorse.com/studbook/stud_details.asp?ID=199
OHMYGODDDD! He’s got high heels on, in the front.. and his back hooves are trimmed like teensy tiny toenails! Are those hinds considered *correct* in the wonderful world of halter competition? (or whatever discipline that horse is shown in…?)
Oh, he’s being ridden. This was from a riding class.
Even though I hate to take anyone’s name in vain..
all I can say is
GOOD LORD!
My mare had little flat round ‘toenail feet’ like that when I got her – but hers were larger, and rather flat . She’d had poor nutrition as a very young filly; that’s probably part of it. And, I had a farrier of marginal quality, at first . . Her feet resembled aluminum pie tins (only they were not shiny or metallic) Fortunately, I NOW have an excellent farrier..he has gradually brought her feet around to where they need to be, for her conformation.
Sure does look like it- he’s still downhill though!
I don’t have my glasses on and can’t magnify pic but those hooves don’t even look like they belong to the same horse. My mare grew out at slightly different angles, but that looks ridiculous. Had a farrier tell me that one shoe being 1/4 inch ahead of just one front hooff was normal. Last time he worked for me. Even my non horsey ex could tell.
My horse lives with my farrier, who is also my friend. She has been teaching me all about hooves as long as I’ve known her and she is awesome! I have known her to walk away from clients that refuse to take her advice, and I have seen her drive 45 minutes to a client at no charge that had questions about her work. Even if we werent friends, I wouldn’t let anyone else touch my horses feet but her. Ever new client she has, she makes sure she explains very clearly what she is doing, and why, and also what they need to do in between visits to take care of the feet, whether it be feeding a little extra hoof supplement, hand walking over certain terrain, or applying certain topicals to kill bacteria or strengthen the hoof, BECAUSE SHE CARES! If you live in Snohomish County and are looking for a NB farrier, let me know! I have a website for her
“BTW if I did do that, let me tell you how it would go:
“Well MY TRAINER said that’s how you do it and we have the BEST farrier in the state, everybody is lining up to get their feet done by him, he doesn’t even take new customers, he’s the BEST, and who the fuck are you and what the fuck have YOU won?†”
A lot of show people make me think of the 1-800-CONTACTS commercial where the Overly Dramatic Guy is like “They couldn’t POSSIBLY have my contacts! I have SPECIAL EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” and then he’s all surprised that such a lowly entity would sell his SPECIAL contacts. Cracks me up every time.
So much of the WRONG that gets popular in the show ring is merely a factor of “I know SO much, and YOU couldn’t POSSIBLY understand how DIFFICULT it is to train a horse to DO this blahblahblah” and I’m all like “Yeah, it’s DIFFICULT because it’s counter to the laws of nature.”
And then the woman holds up the box and says “Look – look with your special eyes..” LOL… I crack up every time. Easily amused I guess
Regarding farriers – what I’ve noticed is that they often criticize / contradict the work of a previous farrier. (I had a horse I rode for a friend show some lameness while at my trainers – out of town – the farrier that saw him up there disagreed with just about everything the original farrier had said and done…
I’m lucky. I’ve got a good one that works with me. My ottb came with very shelly feet – we’re barefoot now, hardening up and getting more heel slowly but surely. I would do most anything to keep him coming to our very remote town – he drives 3 1/2 hours.
And for the Bible of horse shoeing – IMO, the best (many reputable farrier schools/colleges use it):
The Principles of Horseshoeing (P3)
Dr. Doug Butler (Ph.D. in veterinary anatomy and equine nutrition)
Neither cheap nor a short read (1000 pages).
Seriously, I think people should be licensed before they can own a horse. I learned over the course of 40 years that you need to use the very best farrier in your area even if they are a royal pain in the ass–they will make sure that your horse is correctly shod and that the angles are right. But it doesn’t take a college education to see that a horse with a really long toe will end up with leg problems–where does all the horse’s weight then go to??? The back of the leg! I look at all the track horses posted on the rescues and nearly 2/3s of them are poorly shod with bad angles–a recipe for disaster. Also, I believe there was an old longstanding belief at the track to shoe with a long front toe would give a better chance at winning the close ones. It’s really no wonder that so many horses break down on the track. Not to mention that a lot of these horses have a long pastern to boot just exacerbates the long toe problem–combined with with delicate overly long bones–breakdown city.
I suggest that in order to obtain a horse owner’s license that you must spend at least 20 hours observing a really good farrier and, if they’re in the mood, ask them to explain to you what’s good and what’s not vis-a-vis a horse’s hoof….
Liz
Amen about using the best farrier even he is a pain! I’ve been using the “it” farrier in my area for 11 years andhe knows he is the farrier to have. I spent the first few years haulin’ balls up to the barn to make the appointments that fit into his schedule to have my horses standing in cross-ties with clean legs and feet when I got there, and was standing at attention with a big tip and a can of Fresca for him when he was done. Now he gives me a standing appointment every 6 weeks. Sometimes he even shows up early and starts them before I get there. A couple times he has even brought them in from the field or had them done when I got there! A good farrier can be a pain but SOOO good to have once you win them over!
RE “12 is old for a show horse”….
This is probably why I bought an 8 year old National Champion Half-Arabian Hunter horse at an Arabian auction for $1,000 last fall.
After I realized she was mine, my friends checked her out in the stall (I had NOT looked at this mare before I bid. I know, I know….) and said, “I think one leg is shorter than the other in front”!!!! NOT something I wanted to hear at that point!! And totally screwed-up looking, padded feet. Just lovely. NOT!!!
She was re-shod with regular shoes soon after she came home, and was barefoot soon after, and still is, and going just fine. She has a new career as a dressage horse.
Sure wish I’d have taken a close-up pic of her in her clown shoes.
You can *kind of” see them here: http://public.fotki.com/karneh01/echo_valley_arabians/20090812alittleonfy-5.html
Now she is now a barefoot, pasture-puff, happy & healthy, and hope she stays that way!!!
http://public.fotki.com/karneh01/echo_valley_arabians/2010-04-19-our-hors-79.html
What a great story!
Is that seriously an intentional shoe job? It looks to me like the feet are just waaay overgrown and the shoes just didn’t happen to fall off. The angles look completely different on each foot.
I have spent a lot of time with ASBs that were shown saddleseat, their feet never looked like this. Before my BO retired from showing her horses were shown 3 gaited, 5 gaited, saddleseat, park pleasure and fine harness. None of her horses were ever sporting the kind of length that horse is. Some of them had a little longer hoof but the angles were still correct. The farrier was even a corrective shoeing specialist and I watched him many times take great care to get a good angle on the hoof and fit the shoes properly. Several of her horses showed into their 20′s completely sound, and now a couple are even in their early 30′s and still 100% sound after retirement. The only one that has passed was euthed at 29 because of a stomach tumor and had no lameness issues. She would go batshit if her horses ever had feet like this. And she wasn’t going to little local shows either, she travelled all over the country and competed at the top shows on national level, some of her horses even did quite well at the World Championships. Guess she is one of the few that was doing it right.
On another note she pissed a lot of people off telling them what she thought about the thick pads and heavy weighted shoes. I heard her tell a few people their trainer sucked if they had to keep their horses shod that way and chew them out over stupid training tactics (fire extinguishers, etc.) They didn’t get a chance to tell her to fuck off and mind her own business, they would be too busy trying to get away from the wrath of her 4’11” 90lb self. She didn’t have your tact about trying to educate people at shows, Fugly. I think you would really like her, she does it right and tells it like it is when she sees something wrong.
Another good thing about her is when she stopped showing she retired her horses with her. The younger ones are leased out to kids for lessons and small local shows but not a one has been sold. She had several very good offers on a few of them right after she quit and turned them all down flat. She says she keeps them for life and she means it. She wouldn’t even sell a show horse to her daughter because the daughter planned on moving him to her trainer boyfriend’s barn.
I hate the entire barefoot versus shoeing fight.
There’s no fight. There should be no fight.
If your horse is capable of handling the work you want him to do barefoot without soundness issues, don’t shoe. If he’s not, shoe. It’s that freaking simple.
It depends on two factors…the horse and the work. If you’re riding in rough mountain country on stony trails, your horse is going to need either shoes or boots, and I personally feel safer if the horse has shoes.
Thoroughbreds are more likely to need shoes than Mustangs. Ponies are less likely to need them than horses. This is all my *observation*.
Horses that have foundered or have navicular disease are more likely to need shoes, although I have heard of some good progress managing navicular with special trimming.
I personally like it when the horse under me *can* go barefoot, but we invented the horse shoe for a *reason*. Because we’re adding weight to their backs, because we’re making them work hard, we’re increasing the strain on their hooves. In some, but not all, cases that means we need to give their feet that bit of extra protection.
Shoeing and odd trimming as a substitute for training, though? MEH.
I respect your opinion, but my 5 horses are barefoot and sound on rough mountain and stony trails. I’m just saying… it’s possible. Took me over a year to achieve it, but we’re there now. I don’t think very many horse owners are committed enough to make it work, though, so I have no problem with shoes on horses. That said, I’m thrilled with my results, and I was extremely skeptical at the outset.
Gah. Good for you Sophie. And while barefoot might work for you, it doesn’t work for everyone. Period. It’s highly annoying to have someone imply that people who shoe just haven’t worked hard enough to go barefoot. Annoying and often completely inaccurate.
Why people need to INSIST that there is ONE TRUE WAY for these animals who can weigh anywhere from a few hundred to nearly 2000 pounds, who reside indoors, outdoors or somewhere in between, in wet climates, in hot climates, in deserts, in dales thick with grass or on barren rocky mountains and who spend their lives doing all kinds of things that are completely unnatural like prancing around a show ring or spinning in circles around one leg or leaping over 5 ft fences is way the hell beyond me.
I worked with a group of horses that were used for trail work (ranger mounts, packing and light logging) in an area that was rocky with big elevation changes and hard packed clay flats. Most all the horses were born there, all were on turnout 24/7 in large pastures (5 to 10 acres) unless injured. They ranged in age from 6 to 31 and they were under the management of one hell of a horse guy. I call it Horse Heaven, really.
Most of the horses could go barefoot during winter and spring and did OK with boots in summer for harder rides. But for a few, no matter what was tried, needed shoes on the front in the summer. Their hooves just couldn’t take it and boots weren’t really working out either. With shoes, they were fine to work at the ages of 15, 17 and 27. Yes, 27 and beyond.
Point being, this is definitely a situation where one shoe does NOT fit all.
Re: 12 year old being too old to show -
I have three horses (one cutter, two barrel racers). All three show. My cutting gelding is 25. Should he be retired? Sure, I’ve gotten some flak about that from people who have never seen him. He is in great health, keeps weight on easily, is fit, and LIVES to cut cattle. People who have known my horse since he came to Canada at 2 say “show him as long as he wants to”. When we go to barrel shows, he stays home mostly, since I’m bringing along my younger mare and there’s no room on the trailer. And when we load, he screams. And runs. And screams until he realizes that yes, we ARE leaving without him. He does settle down after we’re gone, but according to the BO he’s “sad and pathetic” all day. Poor old man!
My mares are 19 and 8. None of them wear shoes through the winter. I will probably put shoes on my older mare for show season, but just aluminum ones. My blacksmith has been doing his job for 20 years. He works for thoroughbred owners, cutting barns and everything in between. He has plenty of gripes about owners, and other farriers’ work.
I asked him if we should shoe my gelding. He said “if it ain’t broke…” He’s also not the only barefoot horse in the pen. There are plenty. My blacksmith’s view and several others that I’ve talked to ( as well as my vet) all say that barefoot is great, as long as your horse can handle it. If they need shoes, put shoes on. I’ve shown and ridden horses that have to have shoes on or else they get ouchy, cracks, breaks, what have you.
That said, I think it’s a personal choice unless the horse’s feet look like the one in the first picture. If anyone showed up at one of our shows like that, I’d like to think they’d be shamed into correcting the rather obvious issues.
* and yes, I said “bringing along my 8 year old mare” because she came from a place where they wanted too much, too fast and she couldn’t handle it. We started over with her and she’s a completely different horse. She’s not always calm and settled and sweet but she has more good days than bad days and we knew what she was like when we got her.
You have exactly my philosophy.
If the horse is sound, happy and healthy barefoot, then the horse should STAY barefoot.
Honestly, I would love to live in a world where no horse needed shoes…but that’s not the reality. Some horses just don’t have the conformation or hoof quality to go barefoot. And some of the things we ask horses to do cause them to need shoes…somebody mentioned borium studs for winter traction. Top jumpers and eventers often wear studs because it HELPS them get the traction they need to take off…just like football and soccer players wear studded shoes for traction.
Barefoot people, does anyone make a boot designed for jumping or cross country specifically?
My question is… Why put your horse through a year of pain JUST to go barefoot? Is it because people can’t afford shoeings? If so- why the hell do they have a horse?
My TB mare is fully shod- really only needs the fronts, but I put backs on because she gets ‘ouchy’ on the stones in the area I ride around in at times. I’d rather know that she is fully comfortable out on a ride than save myself $20 every 6 weeks.
My 27 year old TBxQH also has front shoes- partly because he has ringbone, and partly because we’re correcting the damage of 6 months of not having his feet touched. I also suspect that once he IS corrected, I’ll leave those fronts on because he has flat feet and again, I’d rather he be sound out on trail rides.
What I CAN’T stand is barefoot people who refuse to put a shoe on their horse NO MATTER WHAT. It could be in severe pain, and a shoe will definitely help, yet they adamantly refuse. Um… Hello? Do you REALLY care for your horse?! Is 3-4 months of shoeing going to send you to hell?
I saw one case recently, a severely foundered pony that was still being ridden despite being VERY FARKING SORE. The owners were barefoot-obsessed, and the farrier recommended a few times to have shoes put on, as there was only SO MUCH he could do to alleviate the pain with trimming (ie regular trimming, rolling back the toe to ease breakover etc etc). They refused, so he sacked them, and as far as I know they’re still riding this foundered pony.
When did I EVER say my horses were in pain for a year? They weren’t in pain, except when I used an idiot for a trimmer, so I quickly got rid of him and decided to do it myself. That’s what boots are for–to get them barefoot without any pain. Why the hell would I intentionally cause any of my horses pain? I’m sorry that you read that into my post, because it wasn’t there–and it obviously shows your bias that you read it into my post. I fear that perhaps you have seen somebody do that to their horse, so you assumed that’s what I did. You know what they say about assuming. Funny thing is, 18 months ago, I’d have been saying EXACTLY what you said, so I can’t really blame you for making those assumptions. And I also based it on watching other people butcher their horses hooves in the name of barefoot trimming, and it was definitely abuse.
The year was NOT to get over pain, but it has take a year to get them over the trauma of wearing horse shoes their whole lives. Sorry–that’s the truth. It wasn’t a year filled with pain. It was a year filled with arena riding and trail riding and whatever the hell else kind of riding I felt like doing… because I used boots. I still hate boots, but they serve a valuable purpose, and they worked.
And WHY did I do it? Because I had two horses who were heading for the big trailer ride to the sky if I didn’t do something to fix their feet from years of shoeing. I didn’t want to believe it, either, but it’s the truth. I’m still irritated about it, because I thought for years I was doing the right thing for my horses and I just wasn’t. For over 10 years, I’ve been making fun of crazy barefoot people, and now I am one. I’m still pretty embarrassed by it, but I can’t argue with success.
So–yes–to answer your accusations, I definitely LOVE my horses. I loved them enough to try something to help them out when nothing else was working. Something I thought was stupid and slightly insane. But it works. And I’m just humble enough… and LOVE my horses enough… to fight through all the negativity and the nasty comments and the general snottiness from others to get my horses truly healthy.
PS–your accusation that I did this because I’m too poor to shoe and/or own horses is pretty ridiculous. I’m a lawyer. Been one for over 15 years. I make a lot of money–I didn’t do this to save a buck. I did it because it was the best thing I could do for my horses. It costs less money because I learned to do it myself, but it’s a giant pain in my butt, and it’s not like I have a lot of spare time to sit around worrying about horse hooves. I do it because it’s good for them.
Funny you should be so sensitive to a post implying that some barefoot self-trimmers maybe can’t afford shoes, yet have no problem yourself implying that people who use shoes just aren’t committed enough to better caring for their horses. Crap like that cracks me the hell up.
Off topic, AND dog related, but here is one law enforcement officer who fought long and hard (three years, I think) and went out of his way to bring someone to justice on an animal neglect case!
http://ga4.org/uan/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=38453892
The top horse’s feet look like the horsey equivalent of stripper heels- holding everything at a bad angle to stress bones and throw things out of whack.
What’s the point of having the feet that long? Does it make the horse do something with its strides?
Yikes poor horse, what awful feet! Its hearing stories like this regarding the showing world that make me perfectly happy to ride the trails. My appy has horrible feet (in my opinion) his feet grow fast and he grows long toe with very little heal. I keep him trimmed every 8 weeks because if I go any longer the angle of his feet look painful to me. And I figure if it looks like I would be uncomfortable wallking around like that he must also be getting sore. Now here is a question…..I have been told that his feet grow that way because he has a sloping shoulder and Im not sure what to make of that statement as I have never had a horse with feet like this. In any case, I will continue the every 8 week trim & shoe appointment with my farrier.
This is really sad. I use to show saddle seat in the Arab world, I had a wonderful 14 year old mare that was very well trained and very talented. She was always sound and her feet never looked like the ones shown above. Those feet are simply to long, that horse should not have been aloud to compete, Arabs are not to have feet over 4 1/2 inches long including pads and if I remember correctly no more than a 14 oz toe weigh. I know a lot of these horses don’t require shoes to move the way you see them move in the ring, all the shoes do is mildly enhance their movement, 14 oz is equivalent to a small stone. I have seen barefoot 4 year old arabs move like park horses, its all in the breeding.
Re the Appy with poor feet–if the horse looks like it needs shoeing at 5 weeks then do it at 5 not 8. My horse’s feet grew like weeds and I had him trimmed and reset every 5 weeks. For him it was a must since he had a very big overstep and was a forger. I only had him catch a shoe twice in the time I owned him and it was out in the pasture in the mud.
It’s things like this that can maintain your horse’s soundness throughout his life. Maintaing your horse’s feet is a biggie. Properly maintained feet go a long way to preserving your horse’s health.
liz
Ttwist99,
Thank you…I agree and am struggling. He fixed a horse of mine who came to me really messed up but the issue he had to fix was that the last farrier had taken this poor horse to what I call ‘peg’ feet, meaning cut him so short that his feet were virtual pegs. So my farrier who I have now came along and has nurtured my boy until his feet are perfect, literally a model foot now. He also moves lovely now thanks to this farrier. That is why I say I know he can be good…
I think one issue is he does a ton of saddlebreds, and he does the hard core saddlebreds, the ones that some farriers get 300 to 400 a shot to do…those huge feet etc. He even goes to clinics with this saddlebred guy who advocates LONG TOES and so my normally good farrier is kind of being ruined by this as he is taking it all in and APPLYING IT TO EVERY HORSE instead of just the horses who can benefit or need it to show etc.
I have tried to explain to him how I want my horses feet (the photo Fugly posted is PERFECT and exactly what I strive for) and while he does my one guy this way most my horses end up splayed (ie pancake) or long toed and this is within a week of a trim…..
It is not just that I don’t want to hurt his feelings, we are in a small area, I own a boarding stable and I really like him a lot. I have others to choose from and I will move on but I am going to show him the photo and see if he will accommodate me but if he gets that ego all huffy with me again (like last time) I will move on.
This is my biggest issue is when I try to tell a farrier nicely and the ego goes up. Don’t get it.
This pic was taken at the Equine Affaire just last month in Ohio…these are Rocky Mountian horses…the first thing I noticed was the long toes, THEN I noticed how beautiful the horses were….it’s a pity that their feet have to distract the eye…
Oh wow. You’ll love this place: http://atigradoacres.com/
Breeding goals – gait before conformation and soundness! http://atigradoacres.com/breedinggoals.shtml
Breeding herd: http://atigradoacres.com/OurHorses.shtml
One of the fugliest horses I’ve ever seen… and it doesn’t gait! http://atigradoacres.com/Twila07colt.shtml
You should know you’re doing something wrong when you breed an ugly FOAL: http://atigradoacres.com/images/DreamNewborn.jpg
Check out their stud’s neck: http://atigradoacres.com/images/Dream9-1-06.jpg
And you can see, 90% of his babies are BORN with that neck.
They have been on the blog before – in the first year of the blog.
The Spanish Jennet Tiger horses! I remember that!
…Did we ever figure out what they ARE exactly?
Haha, oops
I won’t brag about having a grade mistake filly. But I will brag that she’s cuter and better put together than what people intentionally breed.
A way to get across to these people what it feels like to the horses…Put them in 5 or 6 inch pointy toed spike heels and have them not be able to take them off for a month (even in bed). I’m talking the guys too. Feet like this will cause pain all over the body from trying to compensate for the awkward gaits.
On how to learn about farrier work. Check with a local college and see if they have extension couses you can take. I know Cal Poly has a class (3 credits) on Horseshoing for Horse Owners. When I went there Gene Armstrong was teaching it and it lasted a full 12 weeks. He had another just called Horseshoing that was a full year class with hands on labs and a CFA test at the end. You had to pass or not get a grade.
I also never use anyone not a CFA certified farrier even though my horses are unshod. Trims cost $45/horse and that is with a herd discount, (she trims 7 for me). If they belong to the association you can check for class placement, how long they have worked, and any major complaints lodged against them.
OT – Western PA – Please upgrade this TB gelding:
http://www.huntingpa.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1731885&fpart=1
This guy is trying to trade his OTTB for a gun…ugh!
Yikes!
Did you read the thread?
“Any history of laminitus?”
OP: “I dont know what laminitus is so i would say no”
“Laminitus simply means leg problems.”
Later…
“how and the world is the grandson of Seattle Slew only selling for 200.00.. I am no horse expert but I would think I could by him for 200.00 and make big chunk of change off him”
OP: “He is a gelding. But you can buy him and try to make some money. ”
“I never knew you could buy a horse for a fraction of what you could get a dog for. Always thought they were thousands or dollars even for an old one. This is interestings.”
UGH! He’s off the track a couple of years but still in racing weight; I hope someone who has a clue gets him.
No, no, no! I’m only 2 hours away, you can’t flash these things at me! The mother-in-law is looking for something for her 6″2′ hubby though…
God, did you see the pasterns on that boy???
I want folks to see what the Amish do to a saddlebred,.. and probably any other horse they have pull buggies.
This is a saddlebred that was rescued.
Look at the pics and see how thin he is and how LOOONNNNGGG his feet are.. and that is common to see
in amish horses.
http://forum.saveasaddlebred.org/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3138
Been seeing so many horses at events lately that havent seen a farrier for quite some time. Either they are months overdue for a reset or looks like they havent even been trimmed in years. I thought about getting neon stickers and writing “help me-I need my feet done” and putting them on the horses rear ends. Maybe that would embarrass the cheapskates.
LOL! Like writing “wash me” in the dust on a car!
One of the most important things I ever learned was at a young age (14). I was working at an Arabian ranch that refused to do the padding and long toes. The farrier that came and kept all the horses in perfect barefoot condition told me one day that I needed to learn how to trim a horses feet. Not to actually do it, but to learn how. He taught me angles, and how those angles affect the horses body internally. How it affects their legs, and how long you can keep your trusted partner whole and healthy. Over many, many months of lessons he patiently explained….and like most 14 year old horse crazy girls I soaked it up. Now…getting close to 30 years later a farrier gets 1 chance with me. Don’t listen to me…or study the horse and see what he needs and you have no reason to come back. When people say….but the farrier said…..ask yourself this…..can the farrier explain why? And can he explain how that trim or set of shoes will help the horse? Not you in the show ring, but the horse? If you don’t know enough to explain to me why….head on down the road.
Another issue when it comes to hoof form, is that veterinarians and farriers seldom agree on what proper hoof form is. I have an amazing barefoot trimmer AND an amazing vet. Each has a definite opinion about how my horses feet should look. My TWH has the best feet ever. She is barefoot and has a wonderful natural gait. She’s been trimmed by the same barefoot trimmer for the past 4 years and has never had a problem. My vet however, equally as wonderful as my trimmer, thinks that my horse needs more toe. It gets extremely confusing to us owners who want the very best for our horses.
I don’t agree with conforming a horses foot to fit the discipline it is being shown in. TWH’s in my opinion, should never be ridden in those awful pads! I cannot imagine the damage that must ultimately do to the entire body of the horse over time. When I was showing AQHA, the trend was aluminum shoes with wedge pads in the back to build up a bit of heel and help eliminate knee action in the pleasure horses. If a horse needs support through the help of shoes, pads and the like to help with a lameness issue or other structural problem, I’m all for it. I have one of those horses and we have experimented between shoes and barefoot, due to a navicular issue. Otherwise, I do believe if your horse can comfortably handle barefoot….go for it! It can be the best thing for your horses feet.
I just got my first horse about 3 months ago from a former cowroker of mine, because she couldnt give him the care he needed. Hes approx 16 years old,solid white pink-skinned appy gelding. Among his many health issues, he had had years of improper trimming as was evident by cracks and ridges and weird angles of his feet. Then I brought him home and unknowingly subjected him to my naivity by hiring a barefoot farrier, who thankfully only trimmed JoJo three times. Let me tell you: now that I have been educated, that farrier put a bad taste in my mouth for the barefoot or “natural” method. I had hired a trainer to come out and assess Jo as well as the two horses owned by my friend who is boarding him. She saw Jo first and pointed out he was sore, said he had a “double bump” when he landed on his fronts. She said he had too much toe and not enough heel and as a result, the tendons were being stretched and there was soreness all the way up to his withers, and even a little inflammation! When she stretched and flexed his front feet they turned inward and he practically limped a few minutes afterwards, all from the bad trimmings. The other horses, who had seen the farrier much longer, were not as bad but not good either. The mare stood funny and the gelding dropped his shoulder going to the left at a trot, and none of the feet were the same; angles, shape, etc. Now they all have seen a newer, better farrier (recommended by the vet that xrayed my Jos hooves) and after only one visit, they all have marked improvement! The gelding doesnt drop his shoulder, and JoJo looks exponentially more comfortable and gets around so much better with shoes on his fronts. And, poor Jo, he evidently had the horsie equivalent of corns from sole the old farrier never took out, and had bruising because of these “corns” in all four feet! Having seen many different methods and ideas of hoof care over the few years Ive delt with horses professionally (barn work, really, but for commercial businesses- still a profession!), and now going from personal experience, I whole heartedly agree with what someone (cant remember who) had said: shoe if ya need to, dont if you dont! The appropriate solution for the appropriate problem.
I just got my first horse about 3 months ago from a former cowroker of mine, because she couldnt give him the care he needed. Hes approx 16 years old,solid white pink-skinned appy gelding. Among his many health issues, he had had years of improper trimming as was evident by cracks and ridges and weird angles of his feet. Then I brought him home and unknowingly subjected him to my naivity by hiring a barefoot farrier, who thankfully only trimmed JoJo three times. Let me tell you: now that I have been educated, that farrier put a bad taste in my mouth for the barefoot or “natural” method. I had hired a trainer to come out and assess Jo as well as the two horses owned by my friend who is boarding him. She saw Jo first and pointed out he was sore, said he had a “double bump” when he landed on his fronts. She said he had too much toe and not enough heel and as a result, the tendons were being stretched and there was soreness all the way up to his withers, and even a little inflammation! When she stretched and flexed his front feet they turned inward and he practically limped a few minutes afterwards, all from the bad trimmings. The other horses, who had seen the farrier much longer, were not as bad but not good either. The mare stood funny and the gelding dropped his shoulder going to the left at a trot, and none of the feet were the same; angles, shape, etc. Now they all have seen a newer, better farrier (recommended by the vet that xrayed my Jos hooves) and after only one visit, they all have marked improvement! The gelding doesnt drop his shoulder, and JoJo looks exponentially more comfortable and gets around so much better with shoes on his fronts. And, poor Jo, he evidently had the horsie equivalent of corns from sole the old farrier never took out, and had bruising because of these “corns” in all four feet! Having seen many different methods and ideas of hoof care over the few years Ive delt with horses professionally (barn work, really, but for commercial businesses- still a profession!), and now going from personal experience, I whole heartedly agree with what someone (cant remember who) had said: shoe if ya need to, dont if you dont! The appropriate solution for the appropriate problem.
Just my two cents in here, but almost always a naturally gifted and talented horse will beat a gimmicky, tricked out, shoed to the hilt, bad moving horse. However, you run into the problem where the owners of the not so naturally talented horses want to win, therefore they grow the hooves out, put weights, pads, and wedges on, all to give the impression of “good” movement. Yet it’s all just a cheap imitation. But you get a trend going, then in a couple of years all you have in front of you to judge are gimmicked up badly moving horses. You can only judge what’s in front of you. You throw a genuinely good moving horse into the mix and suddenly those horses compensating with those heavy shoes, aren’t placing nearly as well. This is all just my opinion, I know there are just some bad judges out there but for the most part, this is generally the case.
ok, barefoot vs shoes debate aside, this is just plain a crappy job of shoeing – regardless of the breed of horse attached to the feet. This issue isn’t really about long toes, the big issue is that somebody doesn’t know how to shoe an english horse. I’ve spent many years showing “english” (read saddleseat & formal driving) horses and had no problem keeping them sound and showing well into their 20′s.
There are very few universal truths about horse care. That is certainly true for the barefoot vs shoes debate. I have been around horses and riding/training saddleseat, western pleasure, hunter pleasure, driving, halter and lower level dressage with Arabs, 1/2 Arabs, Morgans, Saddlebreds, Thoroughbreds and the odd Mustang and Quarter Horse thrown in for over 40 years. Some have been barefoot, some shod flat, some shod with long toes and weights – and one even shod in Redden’s ‘bannana shoes”. Ulitmately, as a responsible horse owner it is your job to know what is or isn’t working for your individual horse. If your horse isn’t happy and going forward in the bridle or canters funny or is really heavy on one rein or whatever else THEN CHANGE SOMETHING. Change your method, change your trainer, change your farrier BUT DO SOMETHING. If he needs shoes to be comfortable, then shoe him. If he doesn’t need shoes then don’t use them. BUT PLEASE DON’T BE SO ARROGANT AS TO ASSUME THAT YOU KNOW THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH FOR EVERY HORSE EVERYWHERE. If you do, then your dogma will end up biting you in the ass.
To shoe or not is a question that many folks have different answers to. I just wanted to comment on what I have seen happen to the inside of the horse’s foot when it has been punctured by nails and held rigid with a shoe.
Upon dissection of many horse cadaver hooves (for their educational value) there is distortion of the laminae found, causing the normally straight and tightly growing tubules to be not able to do that which they are designed to do. That would be the least amount of damage found on a normally shod hoof, and if you saw it, I think most would think it significant.
When toe or quarter clips are used for any length of time, there is a corresponding injury to that area deep within the hoof, many hooves that had a shoe on with these clips even had loss of coffin bone in those areas that were significant, the bone was missing in the areas corresponding to the area where the clip was. Yes bone does grow back but growing new coffin bone does not seem to be happening so these bone losses will limit the horse’s soundness and weightbearing ability. Tho we do not know what the ultimate reason for the death of the horses whose legs we are dissecting, from the injuries to the internal structures of the hooves, it is hard to believe that these horses were sound.
There were also many horses with distorted or remodeled coffin bones that in no way were healthy.
The most common problem internally seems to be unhealing injuries around the coffin bone where the tissue has died and is either black and rotten or dark red and bloody. Many of these hooves had long toes, many of them had decent shoe jobs on. This is where I suspect many horses go from being sound to the start of their first problems. Not being able to see the internal structures of the hoof while the horse is alive, different ways to fix the unsoundness are tried but the root problem is not found as long as the hoof is shod.
Even the nail holes in many hooves were the cause of deep decay in the hoof as bacteria was able to enter the hoof and the dark, airless , moist environment helped it to flourish.
When working on a horse that is unsound from unbalanced shoeing or trimming and is having hoof pain, MANY times what will happen when the horse’s hoof is allowed to function as it was created to is that there will be massive abscessing where the hoof will start the healing process and the body will work to get rid of that dead tissue inside the hoof capsule. This is not prolonged but on horses that have been unsound for some time it can be severe. The hoof is then soaked with epsom salts, ichthammol is used to help draw the abscess out and the horse recovers quickly and is then sound. Slight cases of lameness do not usually abscess tho sometimes do but in all cases, after the abscessing (which keep in mind is a good thing as the horse’s body is now able to with the increased blood pumping ability of his constantly flexing hoof to heal itself and expel the dead tissue) the horse is sound.
This is kind of like the deep splinter where the body works to make an abscess that when burst, the splinter is then pushed out. I understand some people would not want to see their horse in pain with an abscess but would you want to leave that inside the horse to do more damage? To constantly irritate like that deep and large splinter that you think of EVERY time you bump it? What if it was in your toe and you had to walk on it all the time and did not want to cause yourself pain of getting it out?
Well, that’s my 2 cents…
I can’t believe good shoeing does damage like that. BAD shoeing, on the other hand.
Again. I love when a horse can go barefoot. I feel it is better…it is cheaper (if you don’t get yourself in one of the fad barefoot systems), it is safer for other horses turned out with them and for people around them…a shod hoof does more damage than an unshod one if a kick or a bad step happens.
I simply do not believe that ALL horses can go barefoot.
Nope, I don’t either. And sometimes you MUST do corrections that can ONLY be done with shoeing.
I’m a fan of (quality) Natural Balance shoeing, myself.
How abnormal ! That picture makes me want spew.
Thank you so much for this thread, I have an issue with my farrier leaving toes too long and am at my wits end. This is a good farrier who has really helped a couple of my horses but many horses he does for me he leaves their toes so long that I really can’t tell they were trimmed within days of the trim date. I am so happy you put up a picture for me to print out as he never seems to get what I am trying to say…I even had to pay my vet to come out and tell him on my foundered mare as he would not listen and just go ahead and do his own thing anyway.
I hope when I show him the photo he does not get mad but I have decided that it is time to put my foot down as some of my broodies feet really don’t look good and they don’t look good within a week of him trimming!! They may not get worked hard but I am worried about founder from those long long toes he has and they also pancake out a lot .
Dear faiteaccompli,
Your farrier might be a great person but any farrier who leaves toes too long and is oblivious of the hoof angles is not a good farrier. If he can’t do the good basics like ensuring the proper angles are adhered to, then he is definitely outside the definition of a “good” farrier. My advice, no matter how nice a person he may be, is to ditch him. If he has to be told to do right by your horses, then he’s not the farrier for you.
IMHO….
liz
We have a local gal who is a big barefoot supporter – even though her horse’s feet are worn down to stubs and it got stone bruises and she got asked to leave a show. Of course, she is a PP follower too! Some people never learn!
I was at the horse expo today and thought this same thing. there were so many horses there with long and chipped toes that i really did start to wonder what people are thinking sometimes. my horses get done every couple of months, it costs me $25 a horse. i know this is cheap, we get the many horses discount (he is happy to give it as we actually work with our horses so they stand well for him.) I also could not believe the condition of some of the animals, i know it is spring, and winter takes a bit off them, but honestly…
i mean i was there this weekend
Farrier vs. Barefoot seems to be a fairly common argument – in endurance as well – it seems to go around at least a couple times per year on ridecamp! My friend is going barefoot on her two geldings – one a purebred arab has the awesomest feet and has done some LD and a 50 miler completely barefoot – on some rides she boots (using Renegades currently.) Her other gelding (pinto) is barefoot – it’s been nearly 2 years and he’ll never have the feet the arab has – he will be booted at any competitive ride and she may go back to steel shoes at some point for him. If you want to be competitive and race endurance, it’s much harder to go completely barefoot. She is usually close to last on the rides she’s done barefoot. Some ride managers require hoof boots at the least. They don’t want your horse getting footsore out in the forest somewhere and have no way to get them back to camp.
As for farriers – I feel very lucky to have an awesome farrier who has adjusted to my sport. I use Ground Control plastic shoes on the front of my horse (not for everyone but they work for us) and steel on the rear. My farrier’s biggest complaint are folks who shoe that don’t need to be – he hates resetting the same set 6 or 7 times – like he says if you don’t wear the shoes out in 2 or 3 eight week time spans, let ‘em go barefoot! My horse always gets complemented on how his feet look – the ride vets comment on them as well. Our endurance convention this year we had Blake Brown speak about corrective shoeing and he was fantastic – I paid for my farrier to go. If you get a chance to see him – do it! He’s thinking of having a DV D of his clinic made and I really hope he does it!
Once again, barefoot works for some – I personally hate when people think you need to do exactly what they do or you’re a bad horse owner. I am personally too lazy for barefoot (and too poor – to have a barefoot trim every 3 or 4 weeks is super spendy!) I also like to go faster than being totally barefoot would allow. Humans are strange – we all love horses, but we’ll argue to no end that our way is the only way – whether it be breeds, trucks, gender of horse, shoeing vs. barefoot, saddle types, feed, you name it! What I do with my horse may not work for any other person. I can tell you what I do – but what you do with that information is totally up to you! I am not trying to convince you of anything except having an open mind!
What’s WITH the super speshul barefoot trims?
I’ve known horses go sound for their entire lives…completely sound, never a lame day not caused by injury…with no shoes AND no super speshul barefoot trim. Admittedly they were all either colored cobs (a type of horse known for hoof quality) or British native pony/crosses, I wouldn’t expect all horses to do this. And they were ridden on hardtop. Regularly. Of course, they were also turned OUT when not in work…I think stalling all the time does damage hoof quality.
We have all of this stupid faddish stuff and all a healthy horse that has never foundered or had navicular and has good hoof quality and conformation needs is a simple trim that balances its angles. It’s so silly.