Rushing your fences – literally!
Apr 13 2010
Leave it to Craigslist to bring us yet another example of someone who just cannot hold their horses (I know, that was bad, sorry!) and WAIT for their baby to grow UP! This time, I’m pretty sure it has to do with wanting to put a $5000 price tag on an $800 filly and figuring the easiest way to make that happen is start her over fences.
Schooling 2’3″ to 2’6″ with ease!
This is not a particularly bad tactic to make your $800 filly worth more (I think $5000 is a tad delusional), until you realize that this is a 2007 filly. As in, she’s just turning three this spring. And is already jumping courses. When the heck did they start jumping her? I am frightened.
American readers, this is why the Europeans sneer at us – because we have people who should know better doing stuff this stupid. I mean, clearly this person is not a beginner rider. She has probably done a perfectly nice job training this filly over fences – but to do so at all at such a young age is 100% WRONG.
C’mon, this little squirt is not even done growing. It is obvious from every picture on her web page that her hip is higher than her shoulder and she has inches to go before she’s done. It would be one thing to start her lightly under saddle at this age but jumping? Something that repeatedly lands all of her weight on her front end? What were they thinking?
As most of you know, I do not agree with starting a horse prior to age three or putting a horse into any hard work until age four.  Laura Phelps-Bell wrote a great article about this here. As she says, “Horses should not be in “serious” training in my opinion until at least four at the earliest, if not five or six-years-old.” Laura, you are right and I’ll bet your young horses stay SOUND! She discusses how all of the excuses for starting early are, well, a bunch of hooey. She’s right.
I’ve linked to these articles before, but if you really want to read the explanation of what riding young and working hard young does to a horse physically, read this article by veterinarian Deb Bennett. I do personally think it’s ok to start lightly at three but I don’t ask for collection at three, which makes a difference when you read what she has to say about how we set our horses up for back soreness and an inability to travel in a correct frame later in life. This is a good time to note that the first time I got my (started lightly at three, in training at four) horse adjusted, the chiropractor marveled at the lack of scar tissue in his back. Uh, this shouldn’t be unusual!
Hey, rush all you want if you want to make an easy buck and you don’t care about the horse’s future. If that’s your mindset, I can’t change you. But if you love your horses – AND if you don’t like to pay the vet half your salary! – wait that extra year – three for riding and four for “real” work including anything involving collection and jumping. You won’t regret it.
For those of you in Tennessee who do not want a horse slaughterhouse, I urge you to call or write the members of your Finance, Ways and Means Committee today and ask them to vote NO on HB 1428. You may also want to send them a copy of this extremely fact-based article on why you don’t want a horse slaughterhouse in your town. Very educational article and letter from former mayor Paula Bacon!
For those of you who might have an empty stall waiting for a super snuggly Thoroughbred mare, I am pleased to announce that Exclusive Report, who you may recall got rescued from last fall’s Enumclaw auction, has completed 60 days of professional training and now needs a home to continue her riding career. “Hope” as we call her, is at that point where she is very well behaved with experienced riders but not ready for inexperienced ones. We think her ideal home would be a flat hunter/dressage home (although there is no reason she could not be started over low fences, too) with a quiet, soft handed rider with no temper. If you love snuggly “pocket ponies,” this is your girl – snuggly without being annoying or pushy. Send me an e-mail with HOPE in the subject line if you’d like to know more about her. She is in the Seattle area but SCR does adopt to other states.
200 comments to “Rushing your fences – literally!”
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She’s not a very nice mover yet, and is really not at all worth what they are asking. Gak…it’s a yak, poor little girl. At least the gal riding is not overweight, thankfully…
That’s what I’m saying…she’s probably a sweet little horse but doesn’t have much of a value. I think they are trying to ramp up the value by pushing her over fences way too young. You know, the “anything that jumps around is worth X dollars” argument.
The filly will be lame and swaybacked before she is five… very sad. She is horribly up-right in the pasterns and shoulder… only thing going for her at this point are her flashy white legs. SHAME ON THEM! They are NOT trainers but idiot amateur trainer wannabes!
If you go through her website, there are pics of a very tall guy riding her. I imagine, even though he’s not overweight, he is too heavy for the horse.
Okay, so I will ramble on. Unfortunately in this capitolistic economic environment the “industry” (I hate that term) just cannot afford to keep 2 year olds sound, and blemish free in a large scale and affordable way. That’s the main problem. Imagine keeping a gang of TBs in a pasture without them running down fences, or kicking the heck out of each other. I don’t know what the answer is here, but I truly understand the dilemna the market breeder faces by keeping “teenagers”. My answer is no more “industry” and no more market breeders. Ha! Right. I did work on a large Sport Horse farm, and they did manage to keep the naughties from killing each other, but they had the luxury of having a ton of land.
I’m far out of the breeding “industry” loop, but my feeling is if a breeder doesn’t know how and have the capability to raise babies the way they should be raised, they shouldn’t be doing it. I’ve only bred once, and kept my girl in with a mixture of ages and genders. I boarded a couple of babies so she’d get to play, but made sure she had older horses to teach her good manners. Raising babies with nothing but a bunch of other babies is dumb, no matter how good the fencing or how much space they have. That’d be like letting a gaggle of preschoolers fend for themselves with no adults to help guide them. Shouldn’t breeders have good babysitter mares and/or geldings as part of their program?
I agree. Every baby needs a babysitter, whether thats mom (as a foal), a bossy, cranky broodmare on her off year or a gelding (as a weanling older). Now, at the risk of being dubbed the resident backyard breeder, what we did with my rescue weanling and what we plan to do with our DW baby next year was when they are weaned, put momma in with the geldings and the baby gets to stay with our other mare. That way, they are in the same environment, and with someone who will provide “constructive criticism”. Momma will be treated like a princess by the boys(“OMG dude, look! A GIRL!!”). when the foal’s about 10 months old (and gelded if it’s a colt), then we punt it over to the boys side of the fence and the fun begins. The first colt I’e tried this with (Ok, the first colt I’ve ever owned) has so far turned out pretty well! Very well mannered, loves being around people, easy to mess with. Looking forward to seeing how this works with other babies.
On another note, I don’t think people would be starting their horses so darn early if it weren’t for the breed associations. 2 yr old jack pot western pleasure futurity? when do you start those things?! 8 months?!
You are so right, IB SA. If it wasn’t for performance futurities then this crap (riding babies into the ground because the IRS will deny your tax shelter if you don’t get them out the gate at 2) would be limited to the truly shameful racing biz in the US. And eventually that might go the same way greyhound racing is going…going…gone because of the dog abuse and (thank St. Roch) the rise of the lottery to keep the addicts happy. But if this widely encouraged abuse gets wider because OMG there’s BUX in them thar futurities, there will never ever be a stop to it.
It seems to me that the only possibility of making a profit from breeding (if that’s all you do) is if you own your own land (by which I mean no mortgage) and farm equipment (with no debt). And it needs to be enough land that you can grow all your own feed. Then your only running expenses are manpower, water, utilities, maintenance, and taxes.
That also includes the intelligence and knowledge to know what your own limitations are, and have a better reason for breeding than “to make money.” For instance, raising quality sport horses, or genetically & conformationally sound QHs, for example.
Ruthie, still wanting to win the lottery
Um, WANT that chestnut mare. Attractive neck and head, cute butt. Great rescue!
She was putting on quite a snorty prancing show in the kill pen making sure I noticed her. My jaw dropped when I saw her and I KNEW I wanted her OUT of there. She has rewarded my faith in her by riding like a champ!
I do strictly flat riding so I really have no idea, but I always thought upright short pasterns were not good for jumpers, or tiny little feet.
Here’s her conformation picture:
I would imagine starting her so early would be even more strain because of those legs.
Let’s not forget that oh-so-professional picture complete with sweat marks from the saddle and girth they JUST took off her.
I took a look at her web site, and Daddy looks terribly down-hill, too, so she just might stay a yak, poor thing. She does look sweet, and would make a nice adolescent girls’ pony club project… once she’s had time to mature fully. Don’t people know just how long it takes for a horse’s spine and joints to finish growing?
And, I live in France, and yes, the Europeans do snear at us. That said, there are some people who rush things here, too. I had a very nice 3 year old selle français mare that I backed and then mostly left alone. People thought I was nuts, said she looked like such a nice jumper prospect that I should really get riding her. Sheesh.
Unfortunately, instead of the European practice of riding them later rubbing off on us, I fear OUR poor trend of riding them early is rubbing off on some Europeans.
Do be careful about emailing representatives in states considering slaughter-related legislation. I saw this article a few weeks ago and was taken aback by the extent of the vehement reaction by the Missouri lawmakers who received too many emails regarding horse slaughter. Of course, do email your own representatives if you happen to be in their district and they are considering horse slaughter legislation.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleashed/2010/04/missouri-lawmakers-horse-slaughterhouse-mr-ed.html
It takes a really sick person to approve something like horse slaughter out of spite, although I’m sure there is a fair amount of greed mixed in. They must be *wonderful* parents and spouses…
Or, they are human too, and having a really, really, REALLY bad day. People tend to over exaggerate and vent unnecessary spleen on others when they have those.
The nasty and spiteful middle-school-level spewings of these elected-in-good-faith legislators just goes to “show me” that Missouri is largely populated by the kinds of people who perpetuate puppy mills, celebrate BYBs and have at least two cars up on blocks in the dung- and rusty-appliance-strewn mud bog which goes by the name “front yard.” If these legislators are an example of their voting constituency, that state is in FAR worse trouble than any slaughter issues could address.
Oh good Lord!!!
“Supporters of the bill claim that the meat would come from horses that were abused or neglected.”
Yeah, because after being “abused or neglected”, that’s what they deserve!
AND:
“It’s so fun to piss you wackos off,” Rep. Casey Guernsey (R-Bethany) wrote to an activist through a private email account. “You’re lucky I even acknowledge your existence. It’s so much fun to taunt people like you — ha! Tell me, is it truly liberating to be so incredibly clueless?”
THIS is the problem with pro-slaughter people. Seriously. How do you even discuss anything with them in a mature responsible way? Answer: you can’t. It’s sad really.
We don’t know what the “wacko” said to the legislator. Wackos have labeled me as “pro-slaughter” and an animal abuser because I don’t have a problem with HUMANE slaughter (which doesn’t yet exist). If the majority of his e-mail was from that kind of wacko, well, I might feel belligerent, myself.
But two wrongs still don’t make a right.
Ruthie
It comes down to this: When you’re in office, you’re held to a different standard. At least be respectful and say you disagree. If you’re a snarky snot, you may very well find yourself out on your ear – and not just from the votes of people who aren’t on your side. Those ON your side may decide you have a bad attitude/have gotten too big for your britches and need to get out of office and go get a job again. It happens!
Lessee… Need to check the voting records and see how my local rep voted on this, because if he voted in favor of this bill, the SOB has gotten the last vote he’ll ever get from me, and I’ll be sure to let him know, AND what district I live in so he’ll be sure to know it’s from a constituant and not from one of the “whackos”.
Jeeze. And she’s probably wondering why more of us conservatives are becoming more interested in the Tea Party as of late.
I’m on the fence about riding young. Simply because I’ve seen two many wonderful, sound horses that were gently started at two (mine included). But also because I don’t think there has been enough controlled studies on the subject, and don’t want to take any individual’s opinion as fact. Common sense tells me a younger horse’s body would heal faster under the stresses early riding puts on ANY horse’s body, much like an Olympic athlete–I mean, think about the number of Olympic athletes that haven’t stopped growing! Also common sense tells me that the quicker any horse is started, the better, to lessen the chance of it becoming another unbroke animal in the kill pen.
But jumping at three? No way. That’s stupid.
Most gymnasts, for one. But even they tend to be VERY careful about their training.
-Cyg
Yes, and…there’s a reason they put a minimum age on international female gymnasts.
In fact. Great analogy! Just, umm, not in the way you meant it.
Before they put the 16 year minimum, girls were considered over the hill at 17. Even now, the majority retire at 20-ish…with injuries. Their training delays skeletal maturity, delays menarche (which can compromise future fertility), and they often only return to normal growth on retirement. They are prone to injuries of the back, knees, wrists and hands, which are made worse by the fact that they are *still growing*.
The washed up gymnast at 20 who might limp for the rest of her life is the perfect analogy to the two year old Futurity winner needing hock injections at 6.
http://www.morethanthegames.co.uk/gymnastics/164960-caution-tweddle-tale-holly-murdock
You can’t fix stupid.
Ugh. Mark Twain–the Missouri native–must be rolling over in his grave right now. To bad he’s not still around to take those politicos to task…
“The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to the other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creatures that cannot.” ~Mark Twain
I have jumped a 3 yr old….On a lunge line over a 2 ft fence.
He liked to act up and when he would buck, he would feel the cinch grab, stirrups bang his sides and he would wig out. He would wig out until the rider was off. So I started jumping him over a small jump so we could simulate the “feel” of a buck and teach him to keep forward movement without the drama. Then we added saddle bags with empty soda cans.
It worked. He is now a nice riding little horse with a job.
Poor little mite! How willing and kind some of these youngsters are – to tolerate jumping courses and – possibly worse – bloody flying changes!! It’s still bum high and should be gently hacking out and learning to carry itself and its rider, with the MINIMUM of demands being made! But sadly, it’s not JUST in the USA this happens! A couple of years ago we were sent a horse to back – not yet 3. I explained in words of one syllable it just wasn’t ready – but they insisted – so figured we could at least do it far quieter and kinder than an alternative they’d find! It was 16.2 at the wither – and 17hh behind – and WEAK! We backed it VERY lightly and then suggested they take it home and turn it away for 6 months, then bring it back to be re-started. Did they do this?? Oh no! They turned it away for two months, then owner (who was a VERY large lady who couldn’t ride in a tram with the door shut!) decided to get straight on it! Thankfully it bucked her off and broke her leg – so it DID get more time off! I despair sometimes! There are FAR too many half-wits in the horse world!
Slightly OT, about something I’ve seen mentioned several times here.
I’m confused by the dislike of flying changes done by a young horse – unless it’s a mental thing. I can’t think of a physical reason why it would be hard on a horse who is doing WTC. (Tempo changes in dressage, yes, that’s hard work.)
So I must have some kind of misconception about it. Please enlighten me!
Ruthie, confused
To me, it kind of depends on the horse. There are horses who are naturally light on their feet and back on their hocks, to whom a flying change is the most natural maneuver in the world. But let’s say you have a big warmblood who tends to be heavy on his front end. It’s going to be hard work for him to collect up and do that change and I can understand waiting for him to mature before asking for it.
Its just sad they’re riding that filly much at all. She seems to still be in a rather gangly phase, and I doubt she can get her legs under herself properly with her bum so far up in the air right now. She has a very soft eye, I’m sure she’s a sweetheart. If they’d waited, she’d have made someone a nice pony club pony for many years to come. As it is, I’d be surprised if this girl is sound after 12. Breaks my heart.
I like the pic on her website of the very tall dude in the golf hat riding her. Once again, ride a horse that fits you. If you take your feet out of the stirrups and your feet drag on the ground, the horse is too small for you. Poor little thing. I’m not sure what the point of that photo is but to show how little the filly is.
Unfortunately it’s all about the $$$$$$. The sooner they sell their horse, the sooner they can wreck another young horse. I am working with a 3 yr old tb, and I will lightly begin work with him. Since he can turn on his hindquarters and forelegs naturally, he’ll mainly be a halter/showmanship horse. Because even I know when to push the envelope and when to back off. I may not that be experienced in training, but common sense dictates that 2 and 3 yr olds are babies and need to be treated as such. Meaning only light work. Would you want your 5 or 6 year old child carring their own weight + in books? No you wouldn’t. The same thing for the horse. You will screw up a horse either mentally and/or physically by asking too much to quick. What their doing, is asking for a lame horse by the age of 5 that cannot be fixed. I fill sorry for the filly. I hope she gets fed up and bucks off every rider, gets sold to a more ethical person waits for her to grow up and than starts all over.
i hate when people do that to horses. i like to start mine slow alot of people comment maybe too slow but i like to take my time and make sure my horse is ready both physically and mentally. for example my last one i trained i got as a scared out of his witts 3mo old he would dart under other horses if you even looked at him. i had never seen one so scared and he was very sick on top of that.after a week i had his trust and he wanted nothing more then to learn so at a year old i was putting saddle blankets on him.took him to a show he placed in halter (could have done better if i pulled his mane but i like his mane long and we didint go to win just get him used to stuff). at two i took him places ponyed along my trusty been there done that arab. at three he had a good vet check then his first ride and a few walks around the neighbor hood.he even got to splash in a creek he loved it! this summer he is four and i plan on taking him on his first real trail ride. point is i like taking it slow knowing i put everything in the right order and knowing i did my part to make sure he doesent break down by the age of 7!
And if that filly is 14.3, the rider is about 7 ft 2. She’s tiny, immature from nose to tail, and probably already damaged.
That’s what happened to my horse. When I met him he had already been soured to fences and sitting in a pasture for 3 months. He was three. They had hopped on him, threw a pelham (sp?) in his mouth (didn’t really even bother to put much basic training into him) and started doing 2’3″- 2’6″. By I changed his bit and finally got him to w/t/c in a straight line (took me almost a year), I could barely get him to approach poles on the ground.
I got him some professional training and he is now doing 2’6″ -2’9″ beautifully. He loves to jump and doesn’t look at anything anymore!!
Isn’t it great when someone starts them o/f before they can travel in a straight line? *eye roll*
She looks willing and sweet but those people are delusional for saying she’s a “fancy mover.” She looks like she has very little suspension or freeness in her shoulder. It seems more like she’s fighting her mediocre conformation to make an okay trot as it is. I know she’s not done growing yet and is still really downhill, but horses that are really nice movers can step out nicely even in their awkward stages. I would also agree with Robin that those feet don’t big enough to sustain any sort of rigorous work, especially jumping. Their price tag seems to imply she’s some sort of fancy hunter pony prospect (even though she’s an awkward too big pony/very small horse at 14.3 hands). This horse looks more appropriate for someone who just wants a sweet horse to take some lessons/trail rides on and maybe go to a few schooling shows.
On another note, I though the photos with her only wearing polos in the back were kind of weird. I’ve been riding for a long time and have never seen anyone do this. If the horse is brushing behind, why not use boots that are stiffer and provide more protection? If you’re putting them on for support why not put them in front too since those tendons are more at risk for wear and teat and bumping especially why jumping…Also why be concerned enough to put hind polos on for flatwork and not use any leg protection while jumping? Just seemed like strange logic to me…Anyone got a better explanation?
“On another note, I though the photos with her only wearing polos in the back were kind of weird. I’ve been riding for a long time and have never seen anyone do this.”
That jumped out at me too. Beats me what the point was. Polos wouldn’t do much if she’s brushing her ankles – you need the proper leather boots to protect against that.
I know that I wrapped my mares back legs iwth porter boots and saratogas since she had, had a major injury to her tendons back there and they would help support her for flatwork.
Well, even if she does jump, where would you show her, she would be laughed out of any hunting classes, and she is surely not a jumper. I don’t know what people think when they put something like this on the ground. They should let her mature in a sound way and make her a nice little trail horse, thanks again for more quality horse flesh, byb.
Do US shows not have age limits on jumping horses?
See, “in Europe”, (sorry) no horse is allowed to be jumped, in any class, under saddle, until it is four years old.
Even out tiny little local shows all have a “No horse under four years old is allowed to be ridden on the showground rule.
I understand that, but on Horse and Country T.V. and english program, they showed a competition from Quainton stud.
“Jumping: Quainton Stud 4 Year Old Championship.â€
Those youngsters were jumping HUGE jumps.. and not well either…
They might not be able to be shown in competition, but they are doing something drastic to them in order to have them jumping huge @$$ jumps…ACK
I will be putting 30 days on a 3 yr old this summer, lots of ground work, and about 1 week of riding, walk/trot and one or two trail rides then she will sit till fall and then perhaps sold.
I will be putting 60 days on a 4 yr old this year and she will do some trail rides too.
I am also riding a 4 yr old mare, 2 times a week, for about an hour at a time. We just did our first mini trail ride. I have ridden her 2x a week for about a month now.. so will have some time off when she goes home to settle in, then some more light riding…
But that poor paint filly.. ack
You couldn’t GIVE me a horse that has been started over fences at three years old. I just don’t have the money for the upkeep later…as in hock injections, and joint supplements…etc. As far as I’m concerned she has diminished that horses value rather than enhanced it. Dr. Bennet also explains something that modern horsemen have forgotten….No breed of horse on the planet matures faster than any other breed of horse. Horsemen in ancient times did not put their farm animals to hard harness work until they were five or six years old. They didn’t have the benefit of offering hock injections later in life to make them appear sound again so they had to do what they knew to do to KEEP them sound from the beginning. Which included not putting them in hard work until they were mature. Some modern breeds are purposely bred to LOOK mature on the outside (QH) but they are no more mature than any other 2 year old. I’ve got a very good friend who has had horses ALL her life…she still insists that it is fine to start a 2 year old quarter horse because they mature faster. No.They.Don’t. Nor is it OK to barrel race a 3 year old. You can see it all day long….3 year old “finished” barrel racers being offered for sale. Yeah…good luck keeping them sane. They quickly develop painful problems that result in a bad case of chute sours. I see it all the time. This just makes me sad.
“You couldn’t GIVE me a horse that has been started over fences at three years old. I just don’t have the money for the upkeep later…as in hock injections, and joint supplements…etc.”
My feelings exactly!
ot, very ot! but i need some non-emotional opinions. i stated in the “how to choose a trainer” comments that i had put the suggestions to use and was sending my 4 year old out to be started. the trainer and her facility passed all tests with flying colors. i took my filly there sunday evening. i went to visit today, called ahead and picked a not too busy time. filly had already had a light lesson for the day, had been rinsed and was in her turn out area. they are typically turned out two hours a day on learning days. i went to see her and after snuggle time, i noticed the water tank, there was 2 inches of thick scummy green “water” in the bottom and nothing else. i emptied it, found the hose, rinsed and refilled it with clean water. i was furious! this is my first foal, first to be sent out for training and i am thinking about going to get her. i tried for months to find a trainer to come here (i have excellent facilities) and finally went to this place with glowing referrals. i spoke immediately to the trainer/owner, who assured me it would be taken care of and “they are only out there 2 hours a day anyway, it’s not their only access to water”. well, they are out there right after work time, and irregardless, i want her to have decent water, period! i peeked at the other horses’ tanks and they were filled and clean. i did tell the trainer that this did not inspire a hell of a lot of confidence in her place and she just said it wouldn’t happen again. so my little ocd brain is now screaming “what if they forget to feed her? what if they forget to cool her out? what if? what if?” to me, water is the number one priorty, at all times. am i being a weenie? overprotective/reactive? oh, she just called and left a message, apologizing and reiterating that it’s not her only water for the day (just for the 2 hours after work-my words). so, what’s your take fugly readers?
I have big fits about water too but I’d give them a second chance…given that the other waters were full, it could have been a momentary brain fart on someone’s part. If she said it won’t happen again, see if that is true.
Given that all the other waters were full I would lean more towards this was just a momentary lapse. I do think that I would give it another chance, if that were my horse. Heck, if I get interupted in my regular routine it is very possible that a bucket won’t get filled or someone might not get fed. It has happened…I get in bed where I have a habit of mentally reviewing my day and I suddenly jump up and run out of the room….when I come back to bed I have to explain to my husband that I forgot to feed so & so or I left the water running or some such. It happens. But…for someone to whom I am paying lots of money…once is an accident 2 or more times…that’s a problem.
ummmm…
You don’t say how often she is worked/ridden..
so why do they only get two hours to relax and have “down” time??!!!
Why don’t they get a nice afternoon or morning to bask in the sun or roll and munch on good hay or play in a grassy paddock and socialize, even if its over a fence??
Doesn’t the trainer realize that the horse needs to be near or by a herd and not stuck in a stall or small turn out all day??
I have seen some very very expensive horses, owned by very rich people… their horses are in a large grassy paddock, with a pricey run in shed, they are led in to be worked.. worked/trained or gone hacking… then either put in their stall or when cooled out, if worked/trained in the morning.. turned back out into their paddock, and brought in for the afternoon when the others are also brought in…
These horses are sane, sound and happy!!
I would re-evaluate your pick of a trainer, unless you think its okay that your horse only has two hours outside its stall when its been worked…
JMHO
i agree that the limitied turn out would concern me too. Limiting turn out time is not good for young horses in particular, and is hard on joints. The water thing would bother me in that she is likely thirsty after being worked, but I would give them the benefit of the doubt.
i did say that the trainer/place passed all the other criteria (see yesterdays post), but….. she is being started, and “worked” less than an hour. i believe it has been about 30 mins each time. she is a fat pasture puff. the stalls are 24×24 with metal mesh in between. her neighbors were hand picked for friendliness when i told them that my filly was super social. the stalls are open to huge runs where she can be nose to nose with her new buddies. plenty of room for a teeny morgan to roll and relax, warmblood land is comfy when you are 14.2hh. i would never want her out overnight here, we have storms with sideways hail and tornados are common at this time of the year, we get hail that can kill a horse. so the 2 hour turn-out in the pasture is not an issue, 2 hour turn out with out water is.
That depends on the type of training barn. Most show barns don’t turn out training horses at all, so the two hour turnout is a pretty legit thing. As far as the water incident, someone on the crew probably just screwed up and most likely got chewed out big time for it. If it was at my facility, I would be checking those water tubs every single day from now on. Plus, if it was a one time thing, she will suffer no ill effects from two hours of no water.
Pull your horse.
If they cannot get this basic life-sustaining issue right then what else will they screw up?
Sorry to be so adamant but when it comes to watering there are simply NO excuses. None. Keep looking or bring someone in to your own well-managed situation but don’t take the risk or you just might lose that baby to colic.
WHen I still ran my own barn and was hiring the first employment screening question was WHAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR A HORSE TO HAVE? and the ONLY correct answer is CLEAN WATER.
you know, there is a difference between being cautious and being over-protective to the point of becoming obsessive. A rational person would make a mental note of this incident and be on the lookout for further issues if everything else about the barn is fine. An irrational, obsessive person would flip out, yank the horse from the barn immediately and go whining to their online friends about how HORRIBLE the barn is because they intentionally tried to KILL Poopsykins. I mean, really. Good barns are HARD to find (trust me, I know!) but perfect ones simply don’t exists. Yes, water is a big issue, but it really sounds like it was a momentary lapse.
I personally think you may be overreacting a tad. If it becomes a chronic issue, then yeah, move her. ONE time, and everyone else’s water is clean? I’d say that occasionally shit happens. Not really grounds to go flying off the handle- yet.
If it’s like that every time you visit, then feel free to throw a tantrum and move your baby.
But again, brain farts happen to EVERYONE. For example, last week I got a text from my barn owner asking me why I didn’t set up breakfast for my TB. Oops. I meant to. I set up everyone ELSE’S breakfast. I sheepishly asked if she could toss my mare a few flakes of hay for me and felt like a moron all day. Does that mean that I am neglectful and don’t take good care of my horses? Hardly.
The irony is that while you are freaked out about the “sub-standard level of care,” THEY are probably freaked out about this new “drama queen” client. I’d tone it down a bit until you actually have a solid case…
“The irony is that while you are freaked out about the “sub-standard level of care,†THEY are probably freaked out about this new “drama queen†client.”
LOL, totally on-target. Not that you should pussy-foot around pleasing everyone so that you aren’t judged, but do keep in mind that your stable can fire YOU. Most stables have their resident drama-queen, and trust me, the stablehands/managers do not care for those people. They will vote you off the island if they have to deal with you constantly going behind their work to check up on everything. Your paranoia is not only not appreciated, but can become very disrespectful to the stable.
In the end, though, it’s all a matter of opinion. If you think your horse isn’t getting what you feel she deserves, than perhaps you should move her. Just rationally analyze the situation before flipping out about something that, honestly, is most likely a simple mistake.
I think if she called after you got home to apologize again it sounds like she is sincerely sorry. I’d be peeved too, but people do make mistakes. Hopefully it was just a one-time screw up.
Do you supply your own grain? If so you could do what our OCD boarder does. She doesn’t trust ANYONE to get here horse’s supplements right, so she went out and got a bunch of cheap tupperware containers. She portions out her horse’s grain and supplements, two weeks at a time. Each tub of grain is labeled for each day of the week, am and pm. It works out great for both of us. She can easily pop open her feed bin and see her horse is getting everything she wants fed to him and we don’t have to portion out and mix her 2 types of feed and 3 gazillion supplements. I know some people might get annoyed with that but it works for us. Maybe you could do something like that to give you peace of mind.
i decided to go with a compromise, i am going there daily until i feel comfortable again, or i freak and take her home. it would be so much easier to pull her if i had more options. those of you who may have lived in a place like this will understand, 99% of the trainers of our area have a ton of barbed wire, most believe a good beating is a good training aid, and rusted cars are apparently pasture decor. there is one other trainer who is known to be gentle with training young horses and has lots of turnout time, and her pastures are clean, but she has no barn, no shelters and no trees. it’s only a matter of time till one gets nailed by lightening or baseball size hail. if i do pull her out, her training will be up to me (well over 40 with bad knees ) or sending her away, 2 hours away. when i moved here from nor-cal, i thought i was coming to horse land, but i quickly found out why they call them COWboys. cows are priority one, not horses. so, for now i will drive the 1 hour round trip daily. ridiculous? yeah, but she is worth it.
Well, you said she’d been “rinsed” — which in most barns includes rinsing out her mouth, and many horses love to slurp from the hose. And, as someone said, the water may have been really low because she’d just slurped up much of it.
Take a deep breath. Go by to visit your filly, look at her water, but there’s no need to say another word.
And are those of you who are advising pulling the filly PERFECT? You have *never* made an error? NEVER been called to the phone or to do something else in the middle of filling water tubs? NEVER?? wow. I’m impressed.
um, as i stated previously, thick, green water.the color and consistency of pea soup. i believe the turnout had not been used in a long time and they forgot to check the water. this was her second day in the turnout, i am not raising too much hell, as should be noted above. i will say that our tanks may get low sometimes but you will damn sure never find my horses drinking green sludge.
Sounds like the perfect client for SmartPak.
I am one of the biggest freaker-outers ever when it comes to my horse, but if it were me I would give them another chance. At least now they know up front that you aren’t playin games with the quality of care! Hope it gets better! Good for you for checking on her!
I would also give them one more chance–keeping in mind the 3-strikes-you’re out-theory. It’s likely that since your horse is new to the barn, the daily barn workers didn’t yet know that there was a new horse in the recently-unused paddock. It would be a red flag that maybe there needs to be better communication with the workers in charge of water, and you should assume that this is a barn that needs lots of owner communication. But by pointing out the water issue, you have already set yourself up as the type of owner who is hands-on. So my guess is, if this is a “good” facility, they will not neglect your horse’s well-being ever again, especially because they know you’re watching.
I would keep a close eye (as you have been doing) on your horse’s care, and make sure the training is according to what you approve and expect. If your horse is making good progress and there are no other red flags when it comes to care, it’s all good. If anything happens that you don’t approve of, get the trailer ready.
Could be your horse had drained the water bucket all the way down since it was after a workout. I would have calmly pointed it out and gone no further with it.
Howver, I’m surprised at the comments about the “lack of turnout time”. Where I’m from, it’s rare that a horse in training will get turned out more than an hour or two. Why? Because of the possibility of horse injury. A trainer at my barn had one of her client’s horses go down in a paddock for a nice roll, got its legs caught up in the fencing when it flipped over, and got sued by the owner of the horse because they said the horse should not have been turned out unless it was being constantly watched (expensive horse). If I was a trainer, I wouldn’t turn out at all unless the owner of the horse signed a document claiming that I’m not at fault for injuries while turned out.
The other issue is simply space. There aren’t as many paddocks as there are horses, where my horse lives, so he gets a couple of hours and then someone else gets to go out. But they get more time whenever possible – for example, if some horses go to a show, the ones that don’t get to be out all day. The training horses do go out in the individual paddocks, not the pasture, but that’s just about time – no one has time to hike all the way out and catch a horse from a big field, and I get that. I figure mine will get 3 months off late fall-winter and go somewhere he can go out on major acreage and just run.
She is actually put together fairly nicely. But, watching that older man ride her, it looks like he’s 8 feet tall. Maybe when she grows up, she will be better. She’s never going to make it in the dressage ring with 4 white legs, and she is NOT a nice mover. Again, more pity for her.
Why can’t a horse make it in the dressage ring with four white legs? I don’t recall ever reading anything about horses with for white legs being unsuitable for the dressage ring for that reason alone…?
Sorry, just wondering xD
Yeah, that was kind of a weird comment.
Nice movement sure helps in the dressage ring, but the coloring of the horse matters not.
The old idea that judges don’t like colorful horses in the dressage ring is totally passe. That may have been kinda-sorta-maybe true with certain judges 20+ years ago, but now… people are breeding dressage warmbloods for color. The Krazy Kolor trend is not limited to western disciplines anymore….
And even years ago, I highly doubt that colorful horses were truly discriminated against. Stories like that are almost always sour grapes. “I got a crappy score, the judge must hate my Appy! It couldn’t POSSIBLY have been my crappy riding!”
I have no idea why a horse with 4 white legs won’t make it, plenty do, I know 3 that are Grand Prix level at my trainers barn and they all have big white stockings. My horse is third schoooling fourth and he has 4 white legs….
If she isn’t a good mover, she won’t go far in dressage, but a dressage foundation sure can’t hurt her. However, there are plenty of top dressage horses that had white legs, even all four being whitey white. You may see fewer with four whites at the Olympic level, because 4 high whites isn’t as common as a couple of socks, but the HYOs run the gamut of white and have a history of respectable scores.
Uneven whites are sometimes felt to be deceiving to the eye, therefore falsely giving the horse uneven gaits. Why four even high whites would be a problem, I have no idea.
The only thing I can think of is that it might emphasize less-than-brilliant movement, or call attention to any unevenness in her gaits.
That’s what I thought, too….
p.s. i am so proud that i kept my bearing and didn’t say what i was really thinking, and that was my horse is little but my money is just as green as the warmblood peoples’.
I see this as exactly how you did – the only way to make a low end horse worth more, is to teach it something, and teach it quick apprently. At my local sale barns, all the men bring their crappy horses into the ring and try to spin them around to show how broke they are. Doesn’t seem to matter the buyers that the horse’s head is flying in the air with his mouth pried wide open and the rider is man handling it around by plow reining it in spin. They use fence to stop them, and whack them with the reins to get them to spin and the bidding goes up the more frenzied the horse spins around. Guess they figure that the horse must REALLY be broke if it can do that!!! I don’t start mine until they are 3 1/2 ( 10 minute jaunts around the arena ), no canter till 4, and no showing under saddle until 5, definatly no serious jumping training till 5. (45 years of showing and not one leg injury, not one joint injection, or any joint supplements yet, even in my 20 yr. old ) I would never be impressed with one started so young. At auction, this horse would sell for under $1000, more likely under $500. It does not have the conformation to make a very serious hunter/jumper, maybe 4-H level, at least from the photos I saw – neck too short and you could ski down that goose rump.. It does look like it would make a cute youth horse on the local level though.
While I am totally in support of the “dont’ start before three, don’t do hard work until four” message – I just wanted to post that Deb Bennett is not a vet. She has a PhD, not sure in what, but not in veterinary medicine – my understanding is that her studies were along the lines of the evolution of the horse from analysis of historical skeletons.
I’m not saying she’s wrong, but it sort of sets something off for me that every article about starting horses young always come back to referencing that same Deb Bennett piece. If the science was really that solid, shouldn’t there be someone other than “Dr Deb” with publications on it?
Sounds like she had the education and background to be a leading expert to me…you’re right not a vet though.
ABOUT DR. DEB: Deb Bennett, Ph.D., is a 1984 graduate of the University of Kansas, and until 1992 was with the Smithsonian Institution. She is known as an authority on the classification, evolution, anatomy, and biomechanics of fossil and living horses. Her research interests include the history of domestication and world bloodlines and breeds. She teaches unique anatomy short-courses and horsemanship clinics designed to be enjoyable to riders of all breeds and disciplines, and all levels of skill.
Internationally known for her scientific approach to conformation analysis, “Dr. Deb” has made a career out of conveying a kind of “X-ray vision” for bone structure to breeders and buyers. Her background in biomechanics helps her clearly explain how conformation relates to performance ability. Dr. Deb’s clinics often feature real bones and interesting biomechanical models.
also…
Since 1984, Dr. Deb has been a consulting editor and frequent contributor to Equus Magazine, but has also been published in almost every other major horse magazine in North America. She also has a long list of technical publications. She is a major contributor to the Elsevier World Animal Science Encyclopedia and the Smithsonian Institution’s “Seeds of Change” Columbus Quincentenary volume. She has published four books on horse-related topics. Dr. Deb founded Equine Studies Institute in 1992.
… I want to meet her. Seriously.
That’s pretty much what *I* want to study, except with birds instead of horses. And working for the Smithsonian would be my DREAM job. Seriously. Why do you think my nick translates to Lady Swan?
-Cygnata
… Or maybe not, after reading the comments below. I deal with enough full-of-themselves PhDs. -.-
-Cyg
The dressage club I belonged to in the 1980′s had Deb for a clinic. I am a very calm and patient person–was even back then. I picked her up at the airport and after 10 minutes in my truck I wanted to throw her out! She knows her paleontology (sp?) and her anatomy but back then was not much of a rider and had some really wacky ideas. She was also very rude and offensive! She stayed at my house and was rude to my parents! I have read articles by her since then and find them fine as long as she sticks to facts and doesn’t give her opinions. I guessing she has learned more about riding since then. I know I have!
I like reading her stuff because she has the anatomy background & I learn a lot, but she often states that people do not need trainers or lessons & that they can fend for themselves. This makes me want to yank my hair out. I was in a barn surrounded by tools who think that they can give a 14 year old who has had two years of lessons a three year old off the track TB. This “advice” is the last thing I want someone spouting.
This same barn was full of people who couldn’t figure out why I “still” took lessons or wanted assistance from a professional trainer for a totally GREEN GREEN horse. I wanted to say “so I don’t look like you when I ride”
‘Naturally’ these are all devotees of some NH moron or another. I would NEVER call any of them horsemen/women even though quite a few of them have been doing it (wrong) for years. I had to leave b/c I couldn’t take it any more, even though the place itself was nice.
So you can understand why her position on this matter particularly irritates me.
Deb’s “own” copy of the Ranger piece is here:
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
It’s the WHOLE article complete with illustrations. And it’s copyrighted, too, so shame on the NZ site. You need Adobe reader to see it. You can download it free.
Ruthie
My sister’s tb was very lightly backed as a 3 year old (walk, trot, turn and stop) then turned away and the number of people who said we should keep riding him – he has been turned out and just brought back into work now as he turns 4. My cob mare was backed at 3 by the dealer I got her from, did a little work as a 4 year old, mainly hacking and is only now starting proper schooling at age 5, again the number of people who have said she should have been kept in work but she’s quater irish draught which are a late maturing breed and she is only just as big as her dad and still a full hand smaller than mom so am expecting a little more growth. I’m planning on keeping her and would much rather give her an extra year or two now to finish growing and maturing and have much longer with her sound and healthy in the years to come.
What I don’t get is people seeing the damage caused by early work and keeping on doing the early training. My aunt used to ride western and she started her youngsters at 2 and was competing in reining by 3 – I know of at least one of those which was put down at age 4 due to arthritis in the hocks because it had been doing sliding stops at 2 – WHY??? Where is the sense in that? One of the reasons given (this is in Australia, I’m in UK) was that all the classes in western were done by age, starting with ridden classes at age 2, if the horse didn’t get back till 3 then they were behind and no chance in the show ring. Put that against breed showing in the UK, and all the local and county shows state in their rules that all ridden animals must be at least 4. No 3 year old is allowed in a ridden class. In the UK a horse must be 4 to compete in dressage or showjumpin which is a rule I like.
I honestly get tempted to, if I ever buy a horse, buy a weanling. That way I can make SURE it doesn’t feel any weight until three and a half.
I believe in the traditional English way of doing things. Back in the late summer or fall of the three year old year, depending on when the foal hit the ground. Turn away for the winter, then bring into full work the following spring.
However, I do NOT believe in the ‘don’t handle it at all’ philosophy, either. I really like the way native ponies are introduced to the show ring in England…as sucklings, running loose next to their dam. The mare teaches the foal how to act in the show ring that way
. (The classes are judged on the quality of both animals).
Yearling longe line classes are almost as bad as two year old under saddle futurities. A yearling should NOT be being longed…
“I believe in the traditional English way of doing things. Back in the late summer or fall of the three year old year, depending on when the foal hit the ground. Turn away for the winter, then bring into full work the following spring.”
This was exactly how my Saddlebred was started. I just put him to sleep last fall at 30 years old (he had a stroke). He was last ridden 4 DAYS before he died, and was 100% sound and very happily toting little girls around. I plan on starting my colt (will be a year old in May) this exact same way. My 80-year-old trainer has always sworn by this method of breaking horses, and she’s had MANY years of experience!!
I know that a few years back, foals at foot would be loose, but, nowadays all shows I know of have a “foals must be led” ruling…..
I did emigrate over a decade ago. Thanks for updating the information. I still hold that at side is a good way to introduce a potential show pony to the ring.
Not knowing better at the time, I started my horse lightly under saddle when he was about 2 1/2 years. Luckily he was ridden very lightly until fairly recently, and I’m not very heavy (120 pounds max). I’ve taken my time, hoping to make up for my bad decision early on — we are just now starting to jump him, as in my trainer started lunging him over low jumps last week, and he will be 5 in a couple months. I’m glad we waited — he has shown a huge improvement in maturity in the last few months, and he’s doing great so far! I hope we didn’t do any damage by starting him under 3, but hopefully his status as a pampered pet in a forever home will help keep him sound.
What is the general opinion of when one can start serious driving training? My 10hh pony is not yet 2.5 (still has not lost his middle incisors), and I’d like to eventually drive him. I’ve ground driven him a couple of times and lunged a couple of times, but I don’t want to over-do the lunging because I’m afraid of hurting his joints. Am I just starting too early?
Ask a vet with experience… take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I think you can put harness on him. I also think that you can start him on being led and/or ground driven while pulling an exercise buggy (not a cart or wagon) for a little bit. Maybe at 3, do a little riding in the buggy, but only for short distances, like once or twice around the arena. At a walk.
Don’t start anything more until 3 1/2 or 4. Only after 4 should he get any serious exercise, and then no more than you’d expect from, say, an 8th grader’ phys ed course. (5 = 12th grade; 6 = college, and 7 = professional athlete.)
That’s my humble opinion.
Ruthie
Oh well willyalookatthat…this chick is just a short drive from me. Wouldn’t surprise me a-tall if she’s been in my store doing other dumb stuff. Le sigh.
Shouldn’t we be more worried about the 18 month olds starting out on the racetrack or the padded 18 month old TWH’s on pads? Nothing like someone talking smack on a well taken care of three year old. I think you guys are running out of things to complain about or critique. There are a lot more horses out there we should be worried about than one that’s fed!
I talk smack about all of it – and I don’t think a three year old who’s well on her way to being finished over fences is any less abused than an 18 month old being broke out for the track. That’s equal in my eyes. You may disagree.
Not every blog entry is about starvation. There are other abuses, and other topics.
The TB being broken for the track is usually ridden in fairly straight lines by someone very light, that does very little to alter their natural way of going. No, I am not in favour of it, but I think they way most TB’s are started limits the negative impact.
the 3 year old being started over fences is being forced to bear extra weight as it lands off of jumps, greatly straining the immature fetlocks, elbows, hocks and stifles. It is being asked to turn, and likely do a flying change as it turns.
The race tb is also usually only started at 22 months if the trainer thinks it will be a 2 year old runner. This little paint is very unlikely to be a competitive hunter/jumper with its lack of height and lack of stride. It would be better focused on a discipline that suites its size/type.
Further, just because something may be a lesser evil, does not make it not evil, and not worth highlighting.
And to add a monkey wrench to the whole debate, some studies have shown that weight bearing weight during the 2 yr old year can actually help develop better bone density and strength in the skeletal structure.
Obviously that has to be done very carefully, but there’s kind of two sides to the coin. In all animals including people, being active at an early age helps bones develop stronger – it even reshapes them in ways to make them better able to withstand stress later.
I think this is a slightly more complicated issue than a lot of us would like to think (myself included!). Certainly I see a lot of younger horses with some joint damage and issues from racing so I tend to agree with the “wait!” crowd. But would also be very interested to see more comprehensive study on this issue (using horses OTHER than racehorses).
“And to add a monkey wrench to the whole debate, some studies have shown that weight bearing weight during the 2 yr old year can actually help develop better bone density and strength in the skeletal structure. ”
Go read the whole Bennet article, and you’ll find that this is a misinterpretation of the study results. There is no increase in *overall* bone density — just a migration of density to the stressed area, which means a corresponding decrease in density in other parts of the bone.
The most well-documented of these studies specifically recommends NON-weight-bearing work, such as driving to a light cart. But you’re still just moving the same amount of bone to diffeent sites.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but if she is jumping this high at barely 3, she must have been started under saddle fairly young. Probably not that much older than said racehorses, right? So what makes being nearly finished over fences at 3 any different than running a race at 3?
Um, usually racehorses and show TWH’s are well-fed, too. Just sayin.
What struck me when I watched the video they posted was how practiced she was over fences. . . this is not a filly they just started jumping yesterday. She has clearly had a LOT of over fences training. Since she is only three I cringe at the thought of WHEN they started jumping her (not that three isn’t early enough!) Makes me very thankful that my mare came from a breeder that most people qualified as “slacker”–she was not backed until she was almost four and didn’t jump or show or anything until she was five.
texomamorganlady: I definitely think that you should keep an eye on the water situation and if it happens ever again that should be the final strike. I’m a groom/stable hand and I agree that sometimes if something throws you off your routine or is new it can be overlooked (maybe the paddock your horse was in was not used for a while before your horse shipped in, for example, so it was skipped when the troughs were being filled in the morning?). Definitely doesn’t excuse what happened and I don’t like the excuse they offered you that ‘she has other access to water’. That in my book is not an acceptable response. They should have apologized and promised that it wouldn’t happen again and not made any justifications or excuses. I have seen what inconsistent watering can do, but as long as it was an accidental lapse, I would say stay at this trainer if you like them. Though I know how you feel about worrying if they are forgetting to feed her, cool her out, etc–I do the same thing and its one of the reasons I co-op board–I buy and prepare my own grain and leave it for the groom to feed (in labeled bucket!) and muck her stall myself most days–gives me peace of mind! It must be difficult to have her under the care of someone else when you are used to doing everything–just keep an eye on things the best you can!
I have a yearling (2 in May) that is already 16H and projected to hit about 18H by the time he’s done growing. My trainer said it would be okay to have him backed this fall (have a professional get on him to install the steering and brakes) and then leave him alone until next fall and do it again and leave him alone for the winter and start him in the spring of his four year old year. I know it’s somewhat OT but my trainer said something light and easy like that wouldn’t be bad for his joints? I’m a fat ass so I don’t want to get on him at all until he’s 3.
That being said my trainer (who used to be an Eventer but now only rides Dressage) will put some jump training into her foals (she’s working on #3 in 15+ years) at four by putting them over 18″ cavaletti.
Personally, I believe that the bigger a horse is, the longer you should wait. OCDs tend to show up in bigger babies, and the bigger youngster just has a lot more catching up to do.
I didn’t like the way your trainer sounded in your post. “Steering and brakes” can, and should be, “installed” on the ground! IMNSHO, no one should crawl on the back of a horse until it had been ground worked. Your horse is not a rodeo bronc, and should not be treated like one.
Maybe I’m overreacting, and your horse already ground drives with turns and halts. I hope so!
Ruthie, a little grumpy after doing (grrr) taxes
Thing is, WHY get on a 2 year old at all? Steering and brakes can be installed by long-lining or driving (a lot of Morgans are started this way.) You can even put a saddle on the horse’s back, no rider, and rig the lines through the stirrups (note they have to be FIXED — set at a very short length and then have a strap running under the horse’s belly from one stirrup to the other.)
I agree with the comment on big horses needing to be started LATER… big doesn’t mean strong.
I agree with you. If you do all your long-lining or driving properly, your horse is darn near broke before you put your butt in the saddle. And as far as I’m concerned, the more long-lining you do, the more broke the horse gets before you ever get into the saddle, and the less chance you have that he will EVER object to your butt being there.
Thanks for the answers. I read this blog all the time and I keep reading over and over how bad it is to get on immature horses. I’m worried that he’ll be too big and too strong as a three year old to not have ANYONE on him when I get on. I thought he was going to mature around 16.3H but he’s already growing close to that, my farrier is the one who is predicting 18H. He’s got a great temperament and learns very well. I know everywhere he’s been since he was born and what kind of treatment he’s had so I hope that will count in my favor.
My trainer doesn’t call it “steering and brakes”. I call it that. My trainer is awesome and would prefer my horse to have the barest basics of knowledge before I get on him so that I can preferably stay on him. I don’t bounce like I used to when I fall off and since my twins were born I have a LOT less courage than I used to.
Would ONE training ride as a two year old really be that detrimental to him?
“I’m worried that he’ll be too big and too strong as a three year old to not have ANYONE on him when I get on. ”
Seriously, as the owner of a three year old who was 16.2, it was no issue at all that he was big and strong. Do all your ground work and there will probably be nothing to fear. It’s not like all of a sudden they are SO strong they can’t be trained. The question is not, are they strong? It is “do they know not to use that against you.”
I wouldn’t worry about him being too big or too strong either. Realistically even a pony is strong enough to buck you off and in some cases better able to since they’re lower to the ground and better balanced. If a horse doesn’t want you on their back they’ll get rid of you regardless of their size. It sounds like your horse is sweet and willing and that’s unlikely to change if you wait for him to get older, in fact he’ll probably just be more steady and mature if you wait a year or two. Starting a horse is all about preparing it mentally, there shouldn’t be any physical fighting to it (even if you win the battle you will lose the war with this approach). Trust your horse and let him play and grow up for a while. The only real downside to waiting to start your horse is you may need to get a bigger mounting block to help you up : )
“Realistically even a pony is strong enough to buck you off and in some cases better able to since they’re lower to the ground and better balanced.”
Exactly! The year I started my big guy, HE was fine. It was the PONY that offloaded me!
see…now here is a topic that just sets me off. I’m a long time lurker, first time poster. It seems to me that there are all kinds of abuse. Some people kick the crap out of their horses, some starve, and some idiots think just because the horse is magically 2 years old you need to ride them. I see it, and I want to yell…get off!!!! Look at the 4-H horse programs. Drives me crazy. I see it constantly in all my horsey friends here, but one gal does it constantly. She spends a ton of $$$ on either breeding or buying a nice horse and then believes when they are 2 they MUST go to the trainer and be trained and show prepped. So show me the very nice looking horse a few months later with the bowed tendons! She does it over and over. The only “starting” I’m doing with a 2 year old is perhaps some light ground work. Period.
Its an amusing coincidence to see this topic come up when just 48 hours ago I was wincing my way through watching a pretty (and still very gangly) Tennessee Walker filly that wasn’t yet even two years old being ridden around by her trainer.
That poor filly’s legs will be ruined by the time she’s 5 if that keeps up. Hopefully someone will pick her up and hold off on the jumping until she has finished growing.
I follow an awesome girl on YouTube with a young Irish Sport Horse gelding, huge guy, not done growing at all, and she intends to jump but she is bringing him up right and isn’t doing any jumping, save occasional free lunging over some smaller stuff.
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
There is a link to the full article you linked to, this one is just complete with pictures. I saw the word “Ranger” and knew exactly what article that was, because I have it bookmarked on my computer for reference
It really is a great article.
I can understand the impatience bit, I’m going to have to fight that myself. I recently unexpectedly became the owner of a Rocky Mountain colt (He meets the Gelding Bus next week). He’s only 10 months old, I can certainly wait until he’s three to put him into light work, but the temptation will be to resist riding him more than he’s ready for, until he’s 5 or 6. I expect he’s going to be a blast to train, and even more fun to ride – which, again, is where I’m going to have to fight the temptation to ride him too much!
He’ll never have to worry about being overworked in the traditional sense, his future is my trail buddy after retirement, but we’ll be riding in the Rocky Mountains and the terrain there can be rough. I really have no interest in showing, though he’s going to be a stunning adult, and if he keeps the nice movement under saddle that he has now (Rockies are gaited), he’d certainly be something in the show ring. Not interested though, I’d rather enjoy that nice flowing gait passing by elk, pine, and high mountain streams, than a judges’ booth!
I’m sure this explains part of the impatience factor; the article that Cathy referenced indicates the same thing: People want to ride. I think an excellent point was made earlier, too, about people’s reluctance and/or alleged inability to keep “unproductive” youngsters around. Two shades of the same thing.
I don’t train horses. But I have to ask, generally – why is the non-riding time viewed as “unproductive”? Maybe I am just removed from contact with horses enough that I still thinks it’s a lot of fun (and very relaxing) handling them on the ground, grooming, and generally spending time with them. Teaching a youngster to accept routine handling, touching, haltering, leading, going in and out of a stall in mannered way, these I would not regard as insubstantial or less exciting tasks.
And while a horse of this filly’s age might already be expected to know these things, repetition, I would wager, is important. Hanging with this filly, talking at her, handling her feet, giving her a super grooming every day, showing her the scary trailer and wash rack again and again until it’s boring, none of this exposure can be wasted time, can it?
I’d imagine that this learning time is going to be the foundation of the horse’s entire relationship with people. If done daily and patiently and treated with the same or greater regard that we give to saddle training, you’re going to have a young horse with really nice barn manners, right? I don’t think that’s an insignificant accomplishment. How many ads do we see with the equivalent of footnotes about poor habits a horse has? It’s like the horse’s barn manners were an afterthought, and that’s a total turnoff to me, at least.
Wouldn’t you think somebody who wants to turn a quick buck on a young jumping prospect could simply go to a sale and pick up an unstarted 3-5 yr old?
They are in every back yard breeders pastures and often end up at sales….
I personally have a problem with starting horses so young (under 3), whether they are racehorses or riding horses. I did some things wrong at first with my now-8-year-old- gelding but I also did a lot of things right, and one of those was that he never felt the weight of a rider until he was 4 years old. I waited until he was done growing, his knees were closed, and his mind was ready. He had saddles and pads, etc. on his back when he was younger but no weight. He’s balanced, has beautiful legs and feet, and is as sound as a dollar.
And it just blows me away how they do TB racers, racing them at 2 & 3 years of age….RIP Barbaro & Eight Belles and the countless others ruined before they ever had a chance….
I think this is a classic case of cutting your nose off to spite your face. To the sector of the horse-owning community who understands the risks of starting a horse (esp. over fences) at that age she has made a nice filly worth alot less than her potential value.
As for the people who actually consider this a good thing and would pay this kind of price for a horse that could possibly have damage from being worked so hard so young, well, they will find out the hard way when the vet bills start rolling in.
Hmmm, I am in the process of deciding when to put my 12 year old (expensive) QH Barrel horse down. Take a wild guess why, he came from the good ole USofA, raced on the track early and then put into barrels and poles. I got him when he was 7, Lame the last 3 years, I took him everywhere to finally find out he has leisions on the tendons under the navicular bone, had to have an MRI to find it. not fixable (tried already) so as far as I am concerned this is the result of working them too young.
I have a 4 year old colt now, broke him last year, just starting loping this year. I hope to have him for many years.
We typically start the babies in the summer of their three year old year and then let them just get turn out while we are at Canadian Nationals, East Coast Championships, and US Nationals. The futurity prospect will occasionally get started in the winter of the two-year old year and then get turn out for most of the next show season, to be brought back in and prepped for Nationals after Canada. Jumping a baby is crazy
What do you mean by “started”? If you mean working under saddle – that’s too young.
What’s the “three-year-old year”? If a horse’s “one-year-old year” begins on Jan/ 1st of the year they were born, then that’s too young, too.
Just sayin’.
I assume they mean the summer after the horse turns three, which in my mind is fine for LIGHT work…the English way is generally to put thirty days on at that point (NO jumping) then turn out for the winter…supposedly this lets the lessons percolate.
Youngstock, of course, should be out on PASTURE as much as possible.
I beg to differ. The summer of the year that they turn three, the three year old field gets brought in (they live out in a herd until then) and they get bitted, long lined and started walk- trot-canter. Riding for a training barn means 10 minutes of lungeing and ten minutes of riding, if that. We don’t show two-year olds under saddle like the QH or ASB people, and certainly do not run the crap out of them like the TB industry. We also don’t work them for an hour a day. They then go back out for a few months. My 120 pounds of weight on a horse for ten minutes is not nearly as damaging as the people who try to do right by their babies by doing endlesss lungeing and long-lining to avoid putting weight on their backs, but wind up with a baby working in small circles for a year. These horses then go on to show as junior horses, then open horses, then Amature, then JTR, then walk trot, so they do have long careers.
Hey Fugs. You may already know this by now, but at least it’s a response:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/296909.html
I just had to have the “No riding 2 year olds” talk with my mom. She never really got into riding until a couple years ago and readily admits her horse-ignorance. I found her a nice little gaited mare, 12 years old, sound, sane and well-trained for trail. Nothing flashy, no fancy papers, just a safe little mare close enough to the ground that a little spill wouldn’t hurt too bad. Her husband’s smooth-talkin’ horse breeder friend (backyard, of course) almost had her talked into believing she should sell the little mare and buy his 2 year old palomino filly that is “broke to death for trails”. He already talked her husband into buying another horse off of him that was “dead-broke” but has had several serious blow-ups on the trail (at least that one is 6 but god knows when she was started-he bred her too). I gave her a crash course on how horses develop and sent him a message via her to find someone else to hock his horses off on. I love my mom dearly and am so happy she is getting serious about riding but I can’t turn my back on her for 5 minutes when there is a horse dealer in the midst. And I am sooooo scared she will discover Parelli…At this stage she is a prime candidate for that kind of nonsense. She is such a trusting soul and so eager to learn she will lend anyone her ear. I have nightmares about going up to the barn and finding her round-penning a little 2yo palomino with a carrot stick…
*giggle*
Actually I find a lot of middle aged first timers get suckered by smooth talking cowboys…. and by capable-seeming well-spoken horsewomen. You know the type – “I am SO professional and really look the part.”
She’s not a terrible little filly — if she’s not ruined, she’d make a cute packer for someone who doesn’t need a super flashy horse.
In about two years. Not right now. And NEVER for that price. Ugh, what are people thinking?
I even get uneasy when I hear about five-year-old jumpers who are winning 3-foot classes and above, even hunters doing the 3′ hack as four-year-olds — and especially event horses who are doing Prelim — even CCIs — at 6 or 7. From my experience and in my opinion, it takes at least four years to make a horse that is actually safe and steady going Prelim … and since OTTBs are the next best thing after homebred TBs … when are these horses getting a break?
I know of a dressage trainer who can have her homebreds doing beginning FEI movements by age 5, but she doesn’t ask the same kind of precision that she does from her older horses, doesn’t do that with every horse, and doesn’t rush any horse. Other than that, I can’t really think of anyone who pushes a young horse to do this much and has it turn out okay.
I rarely post, but I had to on this one. About 20 years ago, I opened my Practical Horseman to find an AQHA ad. They were in a MASSIVE membership push back then, which we are feeling the ill effects from to this day. Anyhow, the ad showed a nice little QH going over a jump. However, the copy floored me. The owner said how proud she was to have “rescued” this skin and bones THREE YEAR OLD QH, and was able to show him OVER FENCES at QH Congress in SIX MONTHS! I am not kidding, does anyone else remember this ad? Anyway, it was before email, so I mailed a scathing letter to AQHA and copied Practical Horseman on how it was not advisable to school ANY horse over fences, let alone a QH who was skin and bones at the time training commenced. Practical Horseman never responded (the ad never re-ran, to my knowledge), but I got a snarky letter back from AQHA pointing out that the horse looked happy and not over-bitted (WTF? I never mentioned the bit in my letter), and noted that I had spelled the word “conformation” incorrectly when I pointed out that any 3 yr. old QH jumped to that extent would not be sound by it’s first birthday, due to their sick breed standards. I can’t help but think how many dumb people saw that ad and decided that it was normal to jump a horse that young. Makes my skin crawl. BTW, now that I’m older and slowing down, my latest ride is a just-turned four year old QH gelding, who I just introduced to X’s, and will be brought along slowly and carefully. Luckilly, I was able to find one with decent feet on him. That’s not the case with most.
Nothing inspires confidence in a Craigslist trainer like the line “I have studied John lyons and the pony boy.”
Nuff said.
http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/grd/1690691776.html
And OT but too funny not to share, Free rooster looking for love:
http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/grd/1690460857.html
My parents want me to ride my one and a half year old filly this spring.
No thanks. I would like my filly to live a long, comfortable life, and that means no arthritis when she’s eight.
Besides, she’s only like fourteen hands high right now. My feet would drag on the ground. I mean, sure I wish I could ride her right now. I’d love to hop on her every day, and ride all over the world. But I won’t, because I want what’s best for her.
Good for you.
And yes, for anyone who needs convincing about why to wait – call the vet and find out the price of Legend, Adequan, Hyaluronic Acid, etc. Because you will be paying for a lot of it if you start too early. Look, it is ROUTINE at many barns for everything’s hocks to be injected. Ask any vet.
My trainers duaghters horse is the posterchild of this. She weighs 200+ pounds but couldn’t let anyone else ride her horse for her to break it *eyeroll* so suprise suprise it ended up with horrible knees and feet. Sure, it does everything and is a favorite lesson horse for that reason, but was it really worth it to have a horse that the kids can’t use because its lame every second week? No. They could have waited a year.
My trainer is the smart one. They bought a pony that they thought was 5, trained it accordingly, and when some info came out saying that it might be 4, they gave it the benefit of the doubt and alot of time off.
While I don’t really agree with riding a horse in a consistent program at age 2, I do have to comment on the “When did they START jumping her??!” question.
People who do not train horses for competitive sport often greatly overestimate the time it takes to get a horse cantering around a 2’6″ course. They imagine school after school after school after school, but an accomplished rider can get a lot done with a lot less.
Here is a video of a horse who was coming 4 at the time this video was taken:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5cWzgef8l8
How much jump schooling do you think he had had in his life before it was shot?
The video was shot in February; when do you think he was started? How many days per week do you think he worked?
Here is a video of the same horse about a year later where the horse is clearly more made:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPJkhgc-9t0
How much jumping do you think he did in the meantime?
I would like to see what people think is going in to these 2’6″ courses, because it is possible they are imagining it takes quite a bit more work than it actually does.
“her hip is higher than her shoulder and she has inches to go before she’s done”
Fugs, that brings me back to a question that I had once upon a time. I have seen several ads for horses that are said to be butt high, so still more growing to do. In my experience, if a horse is still butt high at 2 1/2 or 3 years old, they generally don’t grow out of it. My experience is limited to only a handful of babies and young adults, so compared to some of you, miniscule. Do you think a horse that is hip high at 3 years old will grow out of it?
My arabs don’t really get started until 3, and then is just light saddling, maybe a light person for a few minutes a few times, and then more serious starting at 4. They aren’t ready mentally to be horses until they are 5 or so (in their opinion). I don’t think any horse needs to be training for a career at 3.
Mine went from butt high to level between 3 and 5 so, yes, it does happen. Also, if they haven’t gotten great nutrition/care, you will see them shoot up late once they do get great nutrition/care. My friend once rescued a 15.3 three year old who became a 16.2 five year old!
Now, if they’re still butt high at 8, uh, no, they’re just built downhill.
Many horses mature butt-high to some degree, especially the stock breeds. And many of these horses have multiple world championships in performance, and sired or produced world champion performance horses. Barrel racing, cutting, reining – there are a plethora of technically butt high champions that retired sound.
Uphill builds and short backs – two things every conformation expert claims are desirable – are not the norm in stock breeds. Medium and even longish backs and slightly downhill builds are the norm, desirable or not. It’s like C students: there’s more of them than A or B students.
Take a look at some of the NRHA or NCHA futurities and maturities and count how many of these horses have uphill builds and short backs, and you’ll have several fingers left over
Yet, they’re out there and winning, despite their conformational shortcomings. It isn’t like there’s just one or two built this way succeeding in spite of their conformation; it’s the majority that are built “wrong.”
My 7 year old Paint mare was rump high until she was 5. She also had a bit of a short neck. Now, at 7, she`s leveled out to a perfect topline, and has a lovely long neck.
I remember reading somewhere that horses grow fastest from the back end, don`t know if that`s accurate, but it makes sense.
This is a great topic for me to get some input on… I just got my 9 year old mare on friday, she has not been broke to ride, knows what I would call the advanced basics of ground work (w/t/c on and off line both directions) She is not in very good shape, so I have not been working her too hard (I stop her and cool down when she is warm, just about to break a sweat, and I only work her at w/t). I want to start her over cavaletti poles but I’m not sure at what stage to introduce them… She does have a slightly longer back than I am used to also and I want to make sure her topline is strong before I start her under saddle (and I just dont want to buy a saddle for her until I have reason to believe it will fit longer than a month) Any suggestions on a “schedule”? Today and tomorrow are her off days, then Thursday I go back out to work her again.
I don’t think poles on the ground are too much at all. I wouldn’t do raised cavalettis until she is more fit but go ahead with the ground poles. And THANK YOU for giving an older mare a chance to be something more than a baby machine!
Oh no, she has never foaled and never will unless the stars in the universe align and she has proven (like with ribbons and awards and whatnot) that she is athletically compatible with the stud I am in love with. He is a cow horse, and if she goes english or w/p, she will not be bred to anything, ever. period. If said stars do align, she will have 1, singular foal, that will also have it’s forever home. I am also saying this with a pretty good hunch, just after the few times I’ve w/t her, that she carries herself very well for english pleasure. I am very excited to see how she turns out, however that may be. I will be taking her to breed shows, and if she sucks… who cares? she’s mine! Any way it goes she will end up being my rediculously gorgeous, FREE, trail horse
thanks for the advice Cathy
Oh and P.S, she is a registered, half arab, buckskin pinto mare, and she was FREE… Krazy Kolor BYB dream come true right there lol
At this rate I can start my 1 1/2 day old filly anytime now for jumping! gag. The opportunity I see for having a filly born here, whether I wanted one or not, is I have 3 years to do ground work, check out trainers, do more ground work, get feedback about other people’s trainers, do more ground work, and hey, why not see how the parelliazation of my mother-in-law’s mare go bad and realize what training I don’t want. (Sore subject of the week because I HAVE to try it with my mare) Can I try the wiggle, wiggle, snap move on her?
Fugs,
I am SO happy that you have this up since some people at the barns have started reading your blog. These same people had started their colts this winter…and they are 2 mos YOUNGER than my colt(he is 2 in Apr 24). They are doing walk/trot/canter/rollbacks/hardstops/hard backups, you name it they are doing it. I find it totally disgusting watching this. And one of the colts involved is SMALL! I absolutely hate watching them ride and find that the younger kids at the facility see this and think it’s ok. I keep getting slack that i refuse to start mine for at least another year and they just don’t seem to understand when I say he is not ready. They think I am just being stupid…we will see who is stupid when my guy is ridable into his 20′s and theirs crumble in their early teens! Anyways, love your blog and always find it entertaining and educational!
Cheers!
“I keep getting slack that i refuse to start mine for at least another year and they just don’t seem to understand when I say he is not ready. They think I am just being stupid…we will see who is stupid when my guy is ridable into his 20’s and theirs crumble in their early teens!”
All the exact things I have been told. Oh, and mine has already missed his chance to accomplish anything and I should just geld him because if they don’t hit those 2 year old futurities, they’re never going to be worth anything as a stallion.
Whatever. I have greatly enjoyed my horse’s slow, sensible progress. I have learned so much more than I already knew about what hard work it is to collect enough for QH western pleasure, and now that I see it, I am even more appalled that people ask it of two year olds. It is HARD work. If they are going the way they are supposed to, it is hard, precise work no different (people will scream when I say this but it’s true) than the higher levels of dressage. NOTE: If they’re doing it PROPERLY. Sure, you can yank and crank into frame and scare them into the slow speed, but I’m talking about getting a beautiful, round, slow lope that was accomplished without abuse – THAT is hard work. I am so glad I didn’t ask it of my horse earlier. He is just now becoming physically able to do it.
Hrm. I would venture to say that it has less complexity than upper level dressage with all the fancy maneuvers. However, the actual frame and carriage is more different in the build of the horse, correctly, than the difficulty of the work. A horse built for pleasure will go into a pleasure frame from the same aids that will get a horse built for dressage into a dressage frame…I’ve felt and witnessed it, if you have inside leg to outside hand right, you’ll get the way of going the horse is BUILT for.
I sure as heck wouldn’t expect advanced collection from a baby.
Not to harp on my eternal quest to completely revamp Western Pleasure, but PLEASE someone post some video of a TRULY COLLECTED AQHA WP horse. I have to believe they exist, but I’ve never seen one at Congress, or at the local big open shows either, where everybody who does AQHA/APHA circuit ALSO shows.
It would make me super happy to see it.
OT, but what in the Photoshop hell is happening in this ad: http://www.stallionsnow.com/stallion-ad-75329
At first I agreed and thought he looked edited. But after thinking it over a minute, I find it hard to believe someone would purposely ‘shop their horse to look like that. I think it’s possible that the horse just looks like that for real. Here’s another photo of him: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/dynos+dreamscape
Dam and sire did not look that bad, but look at dreamfinder in his pedigree. Bred for color much?
Well, it is a color breed. So I PREFER App breeders breed for color in addition to what other breeders need to consider as well (temperament, conformation, athleticism, soundness etc…) I don’t think anyone could have predicted crossing that Sire and Dam would have produced a horse with such a strange backend.
WEIRD – he looks like he’s put together out of two nice looking, but very different, horses.
With a few extra vertebrae thrown in.
I got my colt just before he turned 3. He’d done nothing but run around in a pasture with the other colts his age until I bought him. I got so much flack for doing “not enough” with him up until now. I started getting on him the summer he turned three for a few minutes at a time – just bareback in a halter. Didn’t expect much more than ‘wander around get used to me being up here’ for 5-10 min a couple times a week. Gradually I asked him to steer more and more. Always at the walk and for less than 10 min at a time. Gradually I added in a saddle and a bitted bridle. He was nearly four before we started any trot work. We did some canter work last summer/fall, but he was still too immature to be particularly good at it. I didn’t push the issue. I gave him this past winter off and he grew up a bunch and figured out how to canter. He now feels like a *horse* instead of a baby. He’s surefooted, his gaits are wonderfully smooth and comfortable and he can give me some collection. We’ve just started conditioning for LD endurance rides later this summer. He’ll be 5 in a month.
My response to the people telling me I should have him doing this or that by now was that I’d like him to be sound and ridable at 30. I’d also like to preserve his sanity and have a horse that enjoy his job. Not one who has been soured to work by the time he’s reached physical maturity.
Could I have done things faster? Probably. Am I happy I didn’t? Absolutely.
“My response to the people telling me I should have him doing this or that by now was that I’d like him to be sound and ridable at 30.”
That’s my usual response. Hey, judge all you want – I have a 5 year old with perfectly clean x-rays, no scar tissue in his back, and he’s happy.
Thanks for posting the links for these great articles! Now I can cite sources for my clients! As in, ‘I’d love to take your money now, but would rather wait a year or so to start your now 2 yr old colt!’ You rock, Fugs!
Thank you, as a trainer, for not being all too willing to grab the money and go.
Too true! In the UK the normal age for starting a horse under saddle is between 3-4. Personally, when I broke my youngster, i backed him as a 3yo, rode him in walk and trot for about five rides and then turned him away. He is just coming back into work now as a 4yo but everything is steady and quiet, hacking slowly for short rides and some very gentle schooling again only for short periods of time. I wont expect him to start jumping until he is 5 and wont do any serious competing until he is 6. I plan to keep him for life so I want a well educated pony who has had all the time he needs to develop into a well rounded individual.
Show rules for ridden animals are that they HAVE to be a minimum of 4 to compete, no point starting a youngster to jump too early over here because you wont be allowed to jump them anywhere anyway! Lunging is generally considered to be quite hard work on their joints so most wont lunge before three. I was shocked when i saw a youtube video of a show in America where yearlings were extensively lunged. The minority who break before 3 over here are frowned upon but its rarely seen…..except in the racing world where for some dumb reason its absolutely fine……..
It also at least USED to be, and I hope still is, illegal in England to ‘hire out’ a horse that has not reached its fourth birthday…that means lesson barns, hire stables, trekking stables, etc, are not allowed to use horses under four to carry clients.
Yay! usually I get a bit paranoid when I read something like this post. I keep thinking, maybe I’m just lucky not to have stumbled across this sort of thing in europe. But your post made me dare post too. I think we have good rules here in my part of the world.
Rule number one: No horse under four years of age may compete at a show. If your horse is born late in the year, you can compete him next year in classes intended for four-year-olds, even though he has turned five in nov-dec.
Rule number two: Four-year-olds may compete in one class only during the day. No exhausting the young horse. We don’t have the show classes you se in the US, it’s basically down to jumping and dressage, and if a young horse is naughty in the ring/gets eliminated you are allowed to finish the course anyway, so no need to enter a second class just to “teach him how to behave in the ring”.
Most horses here are ridden/competed well into their twenties. I had never heard of hock injections before I started reading this blog.
“Most horses here are ridden/competed well into their twenties. I had never heard of hock injections before I started reading this blog.”
And that would be my point. Defend all some of you want, you just do not see as much maintenance needed with horses that are started later.
This is off topic and I meant to ask it on the recent post that was actually related, but I am writing a paper for school on horse slaughter and was hoping to get some ideas for sources. Most of what I have been finding through databases is from DVM Newsmagazine, which is pro-slaughter and so far has not been terribly helpful. Thanks for any help!
There is a TON of information here: http://www.alexbrownracing.com
There is an easy answer to this:
15yr and over sr horse jackpot western pleasure. With all the added money that normally would go to the 2 yr old wp futurity.
All the big breed associations just fuel the fire on making future useless horses that why they are such big supporters of slaughter.
I have always wanted this. I’m actually working on putting together some shows this year and they WILL have super senior horse classes!
I absolutely LOVE the idea of having Senior classes in big-ticket shows. It would reward those who treat their horse well and keeping them sound later in life. And those sort of people deserve rewards!!
However, even big jackpot winnings won’t change the minds of those who want to start 2 year olds under saddle. Time is money, and it’s all about turn-around time. (This of course only applies to people who train/show horses for the sake of making money). It is much more profitable to churn out “finished” three year olds to either sell or show.
So, I don’t think the show-horse-factories will change their methods in order to win a big Senior jackpot. I think the smaller barns and amateur owners who do things right would be the only ones competing in that class. But they are the ones who deserve to win the money!!
That is a GREAT idea!!!!!!!
At a barn we used to board at, the owner rescued a wormy little pony listed as 3 from the auction, who ended up somehow giving birth to a healthy filly a few weeks after she arrived. As soon as the filly was weaned, she sent the pony to a barn to get it ‘trained’ to be sold…. she was sent back shortly thereafter with claims of her rearing, striking out, and bucking off all her riders. She was supposed to be sent back to the auction, but as a last resort, the barn owner asked my trainer if she would work with her. This poor pony was so traumatized by everything that had happened to her that she would tremble when you approached her in the paddock and would flinch away from any sudden movement. My trainer spent weeks teaching her to lunge, then long line, and giving her confidence, before finally attempting to get her used to the weight of a rider. Apparently the barn she originally went to to get broke basically threw a saddle and bridle on her, put a teenager on her back, and started beating her around the ring… the poor pony had never even seen a lunge line! After 60 days of training had been put on her, and she was calmly w/t/c and navigating poles on the ground, we started noticing that her hind end was definitely outgrowing her front. The owner sold her to my trainer for dirt cheap because she figured that at 4-1/2, if she was bum high by 2 inches she wasn’t worth anything…. it wasn’t until we had a vet out to do a check up, that he looked at her teeth and informed us that the 4-1/2 year old pony was actually just coming 3. Suffice it to say she was immediately turned out with a couple older horses on 4 acres to play until her front end caught up to her hind end… and so she could just get the chance to be a pony! Of course, by our calculations, she was bred as a yearling, and then subsequently started as a coming two year old. Luckily she finished growing, came out of that ordeal completely sound, and was just sold to a gorgeous hunter/jumper barn last fall who came to pick her up in a brand new 4 horse gooseneck trailer (all to herself)… and who send us regular updates professing their love for her! Oh, and she has never reared/struck out/or bucked once since we’ve had her… and we learned to never trust that someone is being honest about a horse’s age!
A look at their teeth, especially when they are still losing their baby teeth and getting their proper ones usually lets you tell their age quite accurately. If you don’t know how, get a vet to have a look.
I would never trust anyone who told me a horse’s age without checking for myself, especially if I was planning on starting that animal under saddle because exactly what you described happens a LOT of the time…..
Funny, the featured rescue horse is going MUCH better than the $5K horse!! That pinto has STIFFNESS and RESISTANCE written all over her. She’s not engaged, that’s for sure… reminds me of a demo I saw last year at the Hoosier Horse Fair, an Amish kid jumping a Halflinger who somehow managed to get over fences – like a drunken deer – despite the kid’s not knowing a THING about what should’ve been going on.
I took a 4H parent to task last year… they had a 2 yr old Halfie that had been jumping in the pasture, and they wanted to train it to jump. Also… “We don’t have to use no English saddle, do we? I won’t use no English saddle!!”
I just posted in the last topic about the wonderful illustration in the classic book Happy Horsemanship. A great little doodle of a horse with a balance scale in its neck and a motor in its butt.
I want that filly. She is ADORABLE.
My trainer had a friend years ago that broke out a two year old colt and started jumping him at four. He had navicular by the time he was six and could never be ridden again. It’s not fair to the horse and it makes no sense to start them so early.
I don’t believe in jumping or seriously working horses until they’re at least six and they’re completely done growing. I want my horses to be around and healthy for a long, long time.
nikki: I love that idea! That would be awesome.
So, as a long time Fugly follower I was shocked to see my pony and I on the current post from Fugly. Yes, I own that ruined painted “yak.” That, and I was also shocked to find my email inbox jammed full of mean and extremely hateful email. Nothing helpful or insightful, just a lot of bad language. No ideas or links to articles to help me. Anyways, that is not the point.
My filly was lightly started at three. I spent lots of time ground driving her, and teaching her to move away from pressure. That way, when I finally did put my butt in the tack, I had a very nice horse that was ready to ride. In fact, I am deeply pleased with the comment, “What struck me when I watched the video they posted was how practiced she was over fences. . . this is not a filly they just started jumping yesterday. She has clearly had a LOT of over fences training. Since she is only three I cringe at the thought of WHEN they started jumping her.”
That video and pictures are from our second time EVER jumping. I took her over to a neighboring farm to work with her because we don’t really have jumps where I am. That is what happens when you spend the time putting in the ground work before you even get on their backs. They are willing to do anything for you, and will do it properly. I spent a lot of time over poles, getting her balanced, and she was confident enough to pop over those TINY fences. I know she can do a course, because she will quietly canter down a line… she knows how to turn… so viola! She can do a course! Have I ever actually done one yet? No. But I know she can handle it. I have jumped her on a total of three of my rides. Somehow, I don’t think I have done any lasting damage.
And as far as lead changes… once again. When you teach them on the ground how to respond to pressure, then when you go to ride them, they know it all! All it took was a change of direction at the canter, and she knows the pressure from my leg means to rebalance herself. There is no way I am going to stop her from doing them automatically because “she is too young!”
Let me also tell you what I LOVE to do. I LOVE to find decently cute horses in backyards that I think will make good kids horses. They have to have the right personality. It takes me months to pick out my next project. I then spend the time with that project and put everything I know into it to get it set up for the right kid. I LOVE matching that horse with the right kid. And that kid loves having a horse they can show and advance with for quite a few years. I worked with quite a few of them, and I am still in contact with everyone I have ever sold these horses to. The kids still love them, and are having a blast with them … YEARS later. Parents are also willing to shell out mega bucks for a horse that will quielty, calmly, and safely pack their child around the ring.
This is all I am trying to do. I am not abusing the poor animal. I take the time, and I am careful. I am also putting my talents into making a great kids horse. I think there are worse things out there than what I am doing.
Of course there are worse things. But it doesn’t make jumping a three year old a good idea.
Nothing on this blog is EVER a personal attack (well, unless you’re Tony Meyers, then it is). But if you put something out there that is an example of something I think is a very bad idea, it is likely to get featured. It does not mean that other elements of your horse care aren’t up to speed – it just means that I don’t agree with jumping 3 year olds for the reasons I already stated, and that it certainly appears to be an attempt to get more money for her than she would otherwise be worth if she were only doing flat work.
I certainly agree with the idea of getting horses broke to be kids’ horses. I just wish you’d pick horses 4 and over for jump training. That’s all.
But she is being sold as a horse that is jumping – surely whoever buys her will continue to jump her and more intensively than you claim to have done?
Personally I would say anything under 4 should never be extensively schooled – whether that be flatwork or jumping!
But good on you – she seems like a nice young girl with a bright future. And its great that you spend time preparing horses for young riders. Just please let them grow up first!
And as to those people who e-mailed you saying nasty things – then shame on them – this is not what this blog is about. You are not some serial horse abuser and definitely did not merit that kind of response. I hope those people read this and perhaps learn to direct their energy in a more positive way. Write to your MP (or whatever the US equivalent) about horse slaughter/abuse or whatever. Contact breed societies with polite and well-researched letters of complaint about horses being shown too young. There is no point on being mean to someone who has basically done a good job – just with too young a horse. To everyone out there – don’t waste your time being petty to one person – instead try to lobby organisations which can actually implement a major change! All the whining in the world won’t get something done! If you have taken the time to read this or even post or send an e-mail to Dunkey53 then you have time to actually make a difference. And I hope that you do . . .
I can only speak as an outside observer but I believe that Fugly was only trying to highlight a major issue using a case study – it just so happened to be you. And I am sure that you will agree that there are many horses which suffer from being overworked at a young age.
And its true – I had never heard of hock injections until I spent the summer in the states teaching riding at a camp. I was like “You do WHAT now? . . . “
Im sorry but just a few things I HAVE to say.
1. A three year old is never a novice ride, you made it appear that this filly will be a mothers dream. Its a BABY! Babies need to learn, babies need someone who is capable of teaching them, babies push the boundaries, babies have experienced very little so need a confident rider to take them to their first shows etc.
2. I couldnt care less if you have jumped this BABY once or eight thousand times. She is too young to be jumping! I dont care how well schooled she is, I dont care how easily she picks things up, I dont care how small the fences are. shes too young.
3. She aint worth $5000! Im sorry but she isnt. shes an average filly who has been over-worked. If anything you have devalued her. I wouldnt touch a 3yo thats been jumped with a barge pole. Now do the poor filly a favour, change your advert to say she needs bringing on slowly and dont let people know shes jumped! You know full well it will attract jumping homes which isnt what this filly needs right now.
One of my favorite articles OF ALL TIME.
“And They Call Us Horse Lovers” http://www.robertmmiller.com/andthcaushol.html
He’s the father of Foal Imprinting, which has gone seriously wacky over the years, so he’s also got a great article about Improper Foal Imprinting, too: http://www.robertmmiller.com/imim.html
Hey fugs, does the suckiness of humanity ever cease to surprise you?
http://calabriarose.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/more-evil-people/
gahhhhhh!!!!!!!
So hang on, is this filly turning four this year? That’s a different story.
From the owner: “My filly was lightly started at three. ” If she’s turning three, then she was lightly started at two. If she was lightly started at three, then she’s coming four. Or, she started riding her after Jan 1 and now is jumping her as a three year old. Which is it?
A three year old coming four jumping small crossrails is not that big of a deal. A two year old coming three jumping is too young.
Yeah, I’m not clear on that either. It says three.
My filly is already 3. I started her at the age of 3. Not at 2. Not at 2 1/2. At 3. If you put the time and ground work into them before you even get on their backs, then when you finally do, it only takes a very short period of time to have a really nice riding horse. It helps if the horse has the right personality as well… which is what I look for when I am buying a project that I know will be a kids horse.
OK, you started your filly at age 3 — good for you. Then she wasn’t born in the spring or summer of 2007, she was born sometime in 2006, which would make her coming four sometime soon (or she’s already four).
Otherwise, if she was born in 2007, you used January as her dob for three, and you have been riding her for less than 4 months.
I dunno, I have trained lots of horses, and done all the ground work. 90 days does not a hunter under saddle make, in my opinion. I didn’t actually see the original ad because you pulled it. If, however, you started her in her three year old year and she’s now turning four, then certainly you have done the right thing and the criticism isn’t warranted.
I hate it when the math doesn’t add up.
Yeah, I can’t figure it out… I didn’t see the original ad either, but the photo shows a YOUNG horse.
There are a lot of trainers out there who are really good at starting horses, and then suddenly go all hurryhurryhurry and jack ‘em into a headset or start them reining/jumping/whatever at too young an age.
Dunkey, don’t advertise her as “jumping.” Advertise her as “starting crossrails” because that’s what you oughta be doing.
And $5K? SRSLY?
For a finished and experienced grade kid’s horse with a proven show record, OK.
I didn’t get to see a video, but from the photo, the filly – sweet and willing though she may be – just looks like a BABY. Look how high her rump is, look at the rest of her proportions. She’s got some growing to do.
That was my thought as well. I’m far from experienced, but that horse looks all kinds of young and awkward. I saw the original ad, she looks just as tiny in the other photos. (Especially with a large man on her!) Even if she is three, she’s nowhere near physically mature.
If she’s only been lightly started, as you say, then advertise as such. ‘Green broke filly, sweet and willing, started on crossrails.’ You wrote the ad like she’s got experience jumping, and is ready to start showing. Which is it?
She just has such a baby face…. *sigh*
Yeah, if she stays sound, she’ll be an $800 kid horse. Big fat IF.
Another CL disaster from a “breeder” on today’s Bellingham CL.
NFQHA GRULLA STALLION,7yrs broke – $150 (Mount Vernon)
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Date: 2010-04-14, 10:35AM PDT
Reply to: sale-wz5rs-1691990666@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
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Hello,
My ex has demanded I sell my stud. Considering the current economics, I am in agreement. He will go to the auction next month unless I can find him a good home. I will help with the castration fee($150). He has had 120 SOLID days on him with a very reputable local reining/cutting trainer. He is quiet, can be turned out with geldings, crossties, great with the shoer, clips, bathes, loads etc….He’s a smaller horse 14.2 with a huge kind heart. I’m fairly certain he’ll be dog meat if he ends up at the auction. I can email pics, will try to upload some later today. 360 854 0898 can see pics on website http//hfqhranch.com/stallions. We’re Hoien Foundation Quarter Horses.
I find it weird enough when someone’s current spouse tells them to sell their horse and they listen. How is it that your ex can tell you what to do? But hey – he is broke and they understand he needs to be gelded. Honestly, if he was super close I’d be kind of tempted. Not that hard to find a 4-H’er who has always wanted a grulla!
If he’s so terrific, why is she sure he’s going to be “dog meat” at the auction? Guess I am cynical, this sounds like another one of those “buy him or he’s dead” kind of ads. Why exactly does he need to go the auction next month? You can’t find someone to take him for you, or lease him, or whatever? The trainer can’t find anyone who would take this horse? Negotiate with the hubby since I assume he liked the horses at one point in time? You have two other mares, and possibly some of their foals. What’s happening to them?
The ex probably supports her, in which case he can probably demand she not spend any more of his money on the horses. Thus proving the point that if you have horses, please have your own income to support them. If hubby pays, make sure he’s on board with the whole thing and isn’t going to turn around one morning and demand the immediate sale of your horse(s).
I’d bet its a divorce settlement.
And she’s really trying to give the horse away so she legitimately has nothing to split with the ex husband.
He’s a good looking horse. I’d take him unless he’s unsound or crazy.
I know of a “duo” (aka a barn owner who’s too scared to ride her own horses acting as “trainer” and her pet rider (not her student…thank god!) who’s actually fairly good but stupid at the same time!) in the Maritimes that does this all the time – they take OTTB’s and their own homebred warmbloods and literally break them at 2 and push them over fences before their 3rd birthday (and then sell them WAY overpriced to the unsuspecting – usually the “trainers” beginner students). In a lot of cases, the trainer buys the horse for herself, discovers she can’t do diddly squat with it, and then tries to sell it with (I’m not kidding!) a $10,000 markup (nice, eh?)
What’s really sad is that the rider in this case has already thoroughly ruined her own horse (front feet are so sore the poor guy needs pads all year long, hocks are shot ect – and he’s only 8 or 9!), and put him up for sale (of course listing him as 100% sound…oye!) and is now in the process of breaking the new one (who will be 2 this July!!)….just makes me sick (and glad I’m not there to watch anymore!).
For the short time I was at this barn, they couldn’t figure out why my then 6 year old Warmblood wasn’t showing even though I bought her as a 2 year old…and were shocked when I said she was only started as a 4 year old and then given another year off to grow, so she was technically just getting back into training….funny how she’s 100% sound (and sane!) now that she’s 8 (where as her horse at 8 was needing hock injections just to be rideable)
Guess I’m weird.
Another sad Bellingham CL from yesterday:
free horses (deming)
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Date: 2010-04-13, 6:13AM PDT
Reply to: sale-zcbhd-1689844911@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
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I have extra horses that I can’t contiue to take care of. I have a yearling colt that needs to be gelded as I have mares and he is starting to act like a stud. I can’t afford to have it done. I also have an reg. Appaloosa that I do not have the papers on that I haven’t been able to ride. She is 12 yrs old and 14.3 hands. I need to downsize quickly.
Sigh, Plan fail. If you have more than one horse and don’t have $200 extra to geld one of them, you certainly do need to downsize quickly and hopefully permanently.
I have noticed lately that many people in finanical and personal trouble never seem to have learned that you don’t live in the moment — you have to plan for the future. This isn’t just with horses. “I don’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow” seems to be a recurrent theme.
Giving them away under these circumstances isn’t planning for the future, either. That’s just another desperate move to keep treading water.
I just remembered a weird incident from last year.
There was something going on at the fairgrounds, so our 4H meeting was at a parent’s farm. This is a woman I once took a few lessons from, a nice and fun person, but she’s BIG TIME poster child for Why I Can’t Stand Stock Horse Shows. Headsets – achieved with all kinds of wacky devices – spur stops, seesawing, etc.
Well, being a QH trainer, OF COURSE she’s got a couple of horses tied up – heads high – at one end of the arena, and one was quite agitated. He couldn’t see what was happening, his head was way high up, etc.
So after the meeting, she puts him in the round pen and chases him around, then sorrowfully tells us that this horse is 7 and “not right in the head” because he wasn’t started till he was 4 and she was probably going to just put him down… Damn I wish I’d had the resources to take him……. give him some time off and then reprogram…..
I am SOOOO glad she got honked off at the leader and went over to a different club…… she would mess me up at meetings… I’d be telling kids to get out of their horses’ mouths, and she’d be at the other end telling ‘em to seesaw, yank, and god only knows what else.
Unrelated to this post, but food for thought and fuel for snark:
http://westky.craigslist.org/grd/1672547494.html
http://images.craigslist.org/3m83p03l95O25T05S3a45e03311f2c46d123e.jpg
http://images.craigslist.org/3n53kc3l65T65W15R6a4555eacac959351374.jpg
Eew, this thing is four years old and still that wussy-looking?
Have you ever heard of the Skyros pony? It’s a breed of primitive wild horses that live in Greece…. that’s what this thing looks like. Or maybe like a bad Fallabella mixed with some Rhinoceros…. and of course it’s an unbroke stud!
I never was very good at conformation, but to me, this guy’s got one helluva hammerhead, a sad little ewe neck, cow hocks that would make a duck jealous, and geez he couldn’t be much bigger than 14.2hh based on the height of that (barbed wire, naturally) fence. Well, this Craigslist posting pretty much sums up everything FHOTD was made for, right there in one advertisement LOL!
Better that than this http://www.lotsofpinesfarm.com/kidsclassicstyle.html though… eew watch the video, he totters around at the trot like a fat kid on his way to the ice cream shop ;P
OMG, he’s freaking LAME in the back in the video. Yeah, that’s really what I want to see when I’m looking for a stallion…
A good name for one of his $50,000 colts would be Classic Cartman Style
Egads! I’ve lurked here for a loooong time without every NEEDING to post something, but that ^^^^ defies belief. I’m from Australia so I’ve never seen a HYPP horse first hand, only photos on the internet but my GOD, how can someone even begin to think that having a horse like that is ok in any way, shape or form??
Part of it is some BAD Photoshop in his photo, but the rest…. EW EW EW.
Classic example of an Quarter Horse Halter Steer!
OMG he is actually performing western pleasure gaits whilst free in the paddock…. They must have trained him until he forgot he ever traveled any other way… and look how low he keeps his head…. its like he thinks there’s someone on him O.o poor beef cow sized horse. I see why people started butchering show horses in their paddocks for their meat.. . They probably were very poor and thought they were particularly well grown beef cattle xD
I don’t get how this is an $800 horse.
If you can’t get $5000 for a well trained registered mare with good colour and a nice attitude then there is something badly wrong with the world.
When I found this ad I instantly thought of your post. It made me laugh because of the terrible spelling and the horse isn’t worth even $5,000 in my opinion when you take into consideration who trained it. I think there might be an epidemic going around where everyone decides to train their 3 year old to jump over two feet. http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1545680&share_this=Y