I just cannot wait until tomorrow to post this as a main entry
Mar 23 2010
More “natural” horsemanship! Complete with shock collars!
Seriously. Are you kidding me?
In case they take the entry down, it is about a mare who beats up a gelding in the pasture (no, really?). Julie actually states:
“There is one sure-fired method of curing aggressive horses and I have used it a few times for this purpose. It is a shock collar. It straps around the horse’s neck and is operated off a remote control, issuing a mild and brief shock when you push the button on the remote. Shocking her for her two or three times for her unwarranted and dangerous behavior would probably be all it would take to permanently resolve her of the aggressiveness.”
Oh my GOD … you did NOT just tell people who sound totally like beginners (they were wondering if aggression toward a horse could develop into aggression toward humans) to use a SHOCK COLLAR on a HORSE, did you?
YES. YES, you DID.
Folks, I’m not kidding. It’s not like I’M digging the hole Natural Horsemanship is burying itself in. I’m simply repeating the stuff they put on their own websites, in their own newsletters, and on their own DVD’s. This advice could go wrong in about 16,456 ways. I cannot imagine any kind of normal traditional trainer suggesting anything like this. I mean, it sort of sounds like it belongs in some blog about Shady Halter Horse Trainers – but no, it’s right there in the “Natural” Horsemanship newsletter!
Julie goes on to explain how she has used a shock collar in the past:
“It is intended for use with extreme behavior that is harmful to horse, humans and/or property and it is highly effective. I’ve used it for stall and trailer kickers, for aggressive horses and for a tantrum throwing horse, who threw a wall-eyed destructive tantrum any time you’d take his buddy away. In most cases, one or two training sessions resolved the bad behavior; for the tantrum thrower, it took a few more”
Again, OMG. You just suggested dealing with a herd-bound, freaked out horse with a SHOCK COLLAR?   You know, I don’t get why you and Linda Parelli have so much trouble dealing with a herd-bound, distracted horse. I kind of feel like someone just needs to make you both work at a Thoroughbred breeding farm for a while and deal with broodmares without your handy-dandy sticks, collars and whatever else to help you. Really, it’s amazing how the rest of us can and do deal with these behaviors without it turning into a big stupid drama. I just growl at them, back them up a few steps every time they get stupid, and they figure out that acting like a twit results in getting growled at and made to back up. As for stall and trailer kickers, there is this amazing invention called kicking chains that has been around for probably fifty years. They don’t even require you to be there watching to work – awesome huh?  By the way, I’ve typically found most stall kicking can be cured with (a) enough turnout and (b) not putting the horse next to a horse they hate in the barn. You might want to try those tips first before you break out the shock collar!
Oh, and aggressive mares are often turned into sweet mares with Regumate – another totally humane method you might want to try before you start shocking them!
See, this is just another classic example of how stupid all of this is. Using an e-collar to deal with any of this is like using a nuclear bomb to weed your lawn. It’s not necessary. I guarantee you that I can fix anything a horse might do on the ground without any tools, sticks or gimmicks. So can a large percentage of my readers. It’s really not that special a gift. Beginners, there are no tricks that will give you these talents. There is only experience – and I guarantee you that you aren’t going to learn anything from putting a shock collar on a horse except how to pay vet bills and fix your fence.
Now, Natural Horsemanship Defenders – PLEASE explain to me how an e-collar is NATURAL? Is that like lightning striking from above if God sees you do something bad?
Gosh, I wish my Crabby Old Bat were still alive — ’cause she was extremely pasture aggressive to other horses and humans she did not care for and she’d have taught Julie a lesson or two about that e-collar bullshit. 
 That would have made for one awesome pay-per-view special for our friends at Really Fucking Dumb TV!
On a more serious note, I know that you good trainers are busy with actual client horses, but could one of you PUH-LEEEEZE do a video series showing people how to effectively create ground manners, deal with bucking, deal with barn sour behavior, etc. without all of this silly nonsense? PLEASE? If you do, and it’s good, I will advertise it for free on this blog. I am freaked out at the fact that beginners do not seem to have any GOOD advice out there to go by. Why doesn’t a successful hunter/jumper or dressage trainer do a series of videos that also show ground work and creating ground manners? Or a successful reining or cutting horse person? Someone? Anyone? If it exists, tell me about it – if I watch it and I like it, you can bet I’ll plug it. I am just so sick of terrible advice being given to beginners!  And the beginners are baffled about where to find good advice. Do they have videos showing the Pony Club stuff?
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This is going to be quick, but I just thought I’d share a trick I learned for horses who can’t leave you alone when you’re on the ground. I’ve ridden a number of horses who simply don’t understand the meaning of personal space (i.e. nuzzling pockets, must always be touching you, etc!) and while yes, it’s cute to have that horse who redefines ‘in-your-pocket pony,’ it can also be dangerous sometimes and I’ve spent a great deal of time teaching horses that they can’t be searching me for treats while I’m grooming, hoof picking, etc. Absolutely you want a horse to be able to touch you – but only when you ask!
This works best in the stall – cross ties will sort of defeat the purpose. Basically, when you’re grooming, hold a body brush, bristle-side out, in the hand closest to the horse’s face. Soft brushes or special face brushes work too if your horse is especially sensitive. Essentially, while you’re grooming, hoof picking, whatever, if your horse turns to look at you, he can still see you, but he can’t touch you because the bristles will come into contact with his/her face. Don’t pay your horse any attention, just let him realize that now when he tries to get into your pockets there is now a barrier which isn’t as lovely as a treat! Use a brush so it doesn’t hurt – it doesn’t cause pain, but it does create that barrier and it’s certainly not exactly comfortable. It can take weeks, but eventually the horse will get the idea that whenever you’re working on the ground around him, he shouldn’t be trying to follow you with his nose. Patience is really the key with this one – it’s more of a prevention than a punishment, so it can take time to rub off, but I’ve used it on a number of horses and ponies, all of whom now have much nicer ground manners [:
That is an excellent example of a total nonviolent, humane way to discourage an unwanted behavior.
OH MY GOD I am trying this on my horse tomorrow.
I’m so sick of Zorro nuzzling my butt while I try to pick his hooves. I usually reach up with my foot and tap him on the nose with my boot to get him to stop, but I think it’s becoming a game to him…
Thanks for the tip!!
“Zorro nuzzling my butt ” frankly that is just a funny line to read –many a woman’s dream–cracking myself up here.
LMAO! I probably should have thought about the wording there… The breeder actually named him Zorro after Antonio Banderas
I’ve taught my kids to do this with their nibbly ponies. Works great. When they are grooming and pony tries to nibble their jeans, rough bristles stop the behavior immediately.
Now if I could just learn how to keep Freckles from stealing stuff from my tote while I’m grooming Easy… Well, I did figure out that I needed to tie both of them up, LOL.
I learned something, too. She kept picking up the spray bottle. Now I spray her for flies first. She understands fly spray, and will stand still for it even without a halter on. Smart girl.
Ruthie
Oh gosh I tried this with my gelding…he loved it…thought the brush was his personal face scratcher. It was a good idea but not particularly what I was looking for.
let me say this tip works great! i used this on a draft horse who was constantly in your space. that was 8yrs ago and it only took like a week or so for him to get the idea . no chock collar required
Yeah, or you can fix it in my totally not recommended way that worked wonders on my gelding. Hoof picking always involved him trying to nuzzle. Right up until my shirt rode up and he licked me. Big sloppy horse lick right across my back. Which resulted in me popping up and shrieking. Apparently that was not the response he was going for, and has kept his mouth, and tongue, away during grooming.
As for the shock collars: I don’t know about stall or trailer kicking but the mare and gelding? Big huge no-no in my book. Will not (in general) end well. What the mare is doing is what a lead mare does to a herd stallion that doesn’t respect her. (Which is aggravated by the lack of other horses.) In my world the only reason to mix the genders is in the event of a snotty stud that needs to be taken down a notch or two. A couple of weeks in with bred mares and he is really happy to see you rescuing him from the mean girls.
I have 1 mare that will tolerate pasturing with a gelding. 1 out of 7.
I can’t believe it—I just used the brush trick on Saturday to stop nipping. It worked! I’d been taught to smack or pinch them, but this guy was too small to consider smacking in the face. I just couldn’t do it.
Re: shock collars. I think they can be effective and humane if you’re teaching life or death things to a dog—like not chasing cars or snakes. Using it on a horse to change its herd behavior would mess it up. You can’t change a horse’s personality. All you’d teach it is that it isn’t allowed to be alpha, or to defend itself in a fight. That mare and gelding are incompatible, and simply need to be separated. You can discipline your horse to not display herd behavior while you’re working with it, but in a herd—fuhgeddaboudit.
At the animal shelter, we test dogs through a fence first. If the body language is non-aggressive, we keep them leashed while we introduce them in person. They don’t go in a play group together unless they’re absolutely non-aggressive TOWARDS EACH OTHER. It’s amazing to watch when you have a large pool of dogs. Two will play together so beautifully, you go, “Awww, what sweet doggies.” Then you test one of the sweet doggies with a third, and she is a hell bitch—she starts humping the other with hackles up. So you don’t walk those two together or put them in a pack. I can’t imagine putting a shock collar on the alpha dog. That’s insane.
A really GREAT trainer, who TRAINS the horses that come to him and has had endless success with all sorts of issues… check him out:
http://www.horseproblems.com.au
He has made movies showing how he deals with different issues and demonstrating his techniques, and it down in black and white right there on his site. ‘Problem Index’ is where to find it.
A great read and I frequently visit the site.
He also answers your behavioural questions on his blog.
I like the Horse Problems guy from Australia (John O’Leary). I emailed him once about my pony being aggressive at feeding time (turned out, eating hay) and he sent me back a nice message. He has a video that addresses aggression at feeding time, with a colt who was reportedly dangerous when fed. He said almost word for word that it wasn’t a case for natural horsemanship: http://www.horseproblems.com.au/Feeding%20your%20horse.htm I didn’t have to resort to an actual beating, just did something like I do with my dog when I make her wait in front of her food bowl for a command to eat.
Mr Horseproblems, John O Leary is fantastic. He will answer all your questions in a down to earth no bull way. He also has videos on his website that you can watch for FREE! Although there are training DVDs and horse equipment to buy on his site, he doesn’t push his products. It is all there for the novice and experienced horse person to learn. Definately a site to visit regularly.
Oddly enough, the Aussie trainer also mentions shock training for horses with separation anxiety/herdbound behavior.
I like how he says it’s only as good as the idiot with the trigger.
So true!
Oh, WOW. I included “shock therapy” in a novel of mine that I’m writing as farce of the crazy things that incompetent people do to horses. Didn’t know there were ACTUAL “NATURAL” TRAINERS who really employed this technique. I guess one person’s farce is another person’s treasure.
I will ‘second’ Mr HP (horseproblems.com.au) but he also has an attitude and a pedestal and knows how to use them both. Watch the videos but don’t believe the nonsense you read on his website about some other things!
I’m tempted to start doing videos of my own…. Hmmm….
Kathy I am so glad you raised this topic!!! The natural horse people are so prevalent and so wide spread that it seems very hard to find a good common sense trainer, or common sense anything in the world of horses and horse people! I am a first time (horses at home) owner and it’s been an interesting experience so far. But one that is at times confusing, crazy, and occasionally hair-raising!! I desperately want to get my kids into pony club just so I can tag along and take copious notes for my own interests!!! I’ve often advocated for an adults only pony club, some of us older folks need it worse that the kids
)
On that note of desperation two websites that I have found really helpful are:
http://www.horse-sense.org/ It is by Jessica Jahiel and she is a clear communicator of how to deal with problem behaviors or just general inquiries about what to do when…… She has three books as well “The Horse Behavior Problem Solver”, “The Rider’s Problem Solver”, and “The Horse Training Problem Solver”.
The other one is found recommended in your links and that is:
http://mugwumpchronicles.blogspot.com/ Janet is a gifted writer and a very common sense horse woman. I would highly recommend following her blog. As she says: “I am a horse trainer. Not the best, not the worst. I don’t whisper,or use special sticks. I strive to be fair. “
I WISH I could get Mugwump to do videos. In fact I am gonna email her again tonight and tell her to!
She is actually out of the training biz…she got fed up with all the b.s. See, that’s the problem. The good people get driven out. What you have left is shady SOB’s with shock collars.
Oh, and I think very highly of Jessica too – does she have videos? Everything I’ve ever read of hers was good advice!
It makes me sad…I’d love to send my horses to someone like her (or even her, but that’s unlikely, obviously) for training when I get them…in ten plus years (when I can finally afford them!) It almost makes me consider going into training, just so a (hopefully) sensible trainer could exist in the future. Alas.
mommyrides – if your kids do pony club, see about getting horsemasters started along with it. it’s pony club for the parents
if you have good leaders, it can be really great!!!
I really like Jessica Jahiel, too. You can also sign up to receive emails from her. Each email includes a question from a reader and Jessica’s response.
I emailed Julie about this unnatural training method. I was her “friend” on Facebook and dumped her after she posted this “solution” on her FB page. I am SO mad that she promotes garbage like this. I even posted her post on my FB page to all my horsey friends to get them to avoid her.
When I emailed her I told her about Blanco, the horse who played Shadowfax in the Lord of the Rings movies. Blanco was trained using shock collars and electric prods, and he was terrified of EVERYTHING when his current owner, Cynthia Royal, got him. She has used amazing methods to bring him around and he is now a stable and very happy horse.
I also told her that I had a mare that was just like that, and I solved her issue with Mare Magic. Also used to own a gelding who did the same thing–turns out he was cryptorchid and when he had the surgery, he is totally mellow now. WOW. I told her she needs to find the root of the problem and not just resort to harsh and very unnatural methods.
As far as a trainer who does awesome groundwork with NOTHING in her hands or on the horse, check out Cynthia Royal. http://www.royalequineacademy.com Look past the fu-fu-ness and you will find some AMAZING techniques. I was skeptical when I first learned about her, but now I’m just hooked. Her methods are totally logical and I believe the next level of TRUE horsemanship. I have her videos and am thrilled with what she does. I have always had a problem with being the dominant herd member in the relationship–this talks about a partnership and working together. It is what I have been trying to promote myself for a very, very long time but I never realized that someone else out there is already doing it! To me that is much more valuable and effective than any training devices or techniques we’ve seen so far. It goes far beyond what we’ve learned from John Lyons and Monty Roberts…it’s truly amazing.
I don’t get idiots.
They think that strapping an e-collar on anything and just pressing the damn button is going to solve all of their problems.
Funny (for the people, that is…pity the poor animals) how it just tends to create more, whether the fool deliberately or unintentionally misuses the tool! Doesn’t matter the animal, and it’s just sick IMHO to suggest it go on a thousand-pound herd-oriented prey animal who really isn’t worked the same way as a much much smaller social predator animal!
(BTW, I do use e-collars as a DOG training tool…and no I do not understand how it is even possible to put them on a dogs’ genitals, much less WHY anyone would even think it’s worthwhile in training. I would definitely RUN from anyone who suggested to me that it goes on anything other than a dog, and specifically, a dog’s neck! If they can’t pass the “Where do I put it” test, how I can I trust that they even know how to USE it correctly? And if they DO pass the test, let’s see what my dog has to say about them!)
I would no more use an eCollar on my dog then I would on my child. I teach and train through reward and positive reinforcement..
Lol yeah sure that works when what your bribing them with is more interesting than the trouble they’re about to get into. Obviously you are someone that’s never trained a high drive dog or raised a teenager :p
Actually yes I have. I also raised two boys now 18 and 20 with no physical punishment, but plenty of discipline and they are both well behaved, polite and helpful. Have never been in trouble.
Only reason I can see for anyone to use an electronic or shock collar on a dog would be to prevent it being euth’d. And only as a lst possible resort, in the right hands, which isn’t generally how it is used.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with using e-collars on dogs in certain situations. It just depends on the breed of dog and the individual dog’s personality. E-collars are used on hunting dogs all the time without “traumatizing” them.
After trying many different training methods, I finally gave in and got a shock collar for my Pointer. It is absolutely the only thing that works on him. And even it isn’t 100% effective when he’s really focused on something.
I tried clicker training. Oliver couldn’t care less about the click and treat when there’s something else he’d rather do. When I ask him to sit with a treat in my hand, he slowly, slowly lowers his butt to the floor like it’s killing him.
When he was a pup, he got out of the yard a few times. He would blow right past you through the gate every chance he got–running full speed. One time I ran and got a whole grilled steak out of the fridge. I held it up, coaxing him to come to me. He looked at me, looked down the road, looked at me. You could totally see the thought process in his head (hmmm, steak or freedom, steak or freedom…). He chose freedom. My husband finally caught him about a mile down the road. You have to either get in the car or jump on the 4-wheeler to catch him.
I paid $250 for private lessons with a dog trainer who offered a money-back GUARANTEE that he could train your dog with you. Guess what, didn’t work. The guy said Oliver was the most stubborn dog he’s ever seen.
All dogs can’t be trained using only positive reinforcement methods.
I would never used the collar on my Golden Retriever or my Lab. They are way too sensitive. But for this particular Pointer, it works better than anything else. My dad affectionately calls Oliver “The White Devil.”
It’s not bribing, it’s using positive reinforcement. The behaviors do not break down if you do it correctly. I am an enthusiastic clicker trainer with dogs and horses, but it has to be done right. It is NOT a bribe. Might be a good thing for you to learn about, I was a confirmed and convinced yank and pull trainer in the beginning, got high in trials with scores of 199. Sure it works. But clicker training and positives work just as well and don’t damage the relationship you have with the animal OR the human. Open your mind a little bit, you might be surprised at what you can learn!
You’d use it in a heartbeat if it saved your dog’s life or happiness.
A shock collar is just a tool. Use it right, and it works fine without traumatizing the dog. Use it wrong, and it’s abusive. Use it right, and you’ll only have to push the button a few times. … I’ll stop now. Just be aware that 2 button pushes got me a happy dog I could walk off-lead anywhere. And I saved another dog’s life with it.
Ruthie
And I’m sure you, like every other “purely positive” trainer out there, has a dog who thinks all commands are an elective.
The dog I currently own was very traumatized by being “trained” with a shock collar. He was hit by a car a few years before we got him, and he had to stay at the vet for almost a month. He came back a totally different dog, and became very mean (as in, extreme fear aggression). His owner from the time recently learned that the vet put shock collars on all the dogs so they wouldn’t bark. Being a very vocal dog, I can see exactly how this turned him into the very fearful dog he is now. We can’t even get an electric fence, because I’m positive that once he gets zapped, he will be terrified to go outside. Is it really worth using shock collars? IMO, no. He is scarred for life, and no amount of training will make him forget what he went through. We ran into that vet at a PetSmart recently (we had brought him with us to help socialize him a bit), and when he saw her he cowered and peed and pooed and shook. Now he has to be sedated before going into any vet office, and we’ve been through seven trainers and animal behaviorists who have all said it’s a lost cause.
In the wrong hands ANY training device can become a an instrument of torture that leads to an animal being “scarred for life”. I know a dog who goes nuts at the sight of – a leash. She is a farm dog who was routinely caught, leashed and abused. She is convinced that anyone who comes towards her with a leash in hand has one intention – to restrain her and beat the crap out of her, and she runs/defends herself accordingly. No amount of training has corrected this problem, and it’s unlikely at this point in her life (she’s seven years old) that it will.
On the contrary, I have seen responsible amateur owners use a shock collar to great success in absolute last ditch attempts to prevent dangerous behaviour, especially behaviours that dogs have learned they can “get away with” because they have learned avoidance.
Two good examples; a dog who had learned to kill chickens when no one was around, learned to stay away from the chickens after two weeks of vigilance on the part of the beginner owner who hid herself in the chicken coop for TWO weeks to save the dog she loved. The dog learned that chickens gave him nasty shocks, and avoided them healthily afterward. She was only 15 and begged her parents for the opportunity to try anything to prevent her dog from being put down. Was there other alternatives she could have explored; most likely. There were other alternatives that she did try but failed. This alternative was unpleasant, but produced the desired effect.
The other dog saved by good intervention of a shock collar was an obnoxious collie cross that was dumped on the acreage of an elderly couple. They kept the dog, but could not prevent it from “herding them” or jumping up and knocking them over. They were frail, and it was likely this was going to end with a broken hip. No one else wanted this ugly dog, they couldn’t give it away, and the local county had no shelter, only an impound and a gas chamber. The shock collar gave the dog a healthy respect for their personal space, and the “ugly” collie is still around today sans collar.
People say that good intentions pave the way; but sometimes good intentions work out the way that they should, and sometimes the means justifies the end.
I think that story about the chickens is the best example of the effective use of a shock collar I’ve ever heard. Of course, she had to camp the chicken coop… it requires love and time. A lot of people who use methods like this are looking for a quick fix and are apt to abuse it, I think.
I second the sentiment — and, interestingly, that’s basically identical to the approach I’ve seen recommended with shock collars for horses. I haven’t used one, but I did read an article about them with interest several months ago (I have a mare who is just unrelentingly nasty to any horse with which she is pastured, but who is respectful and sweet whenever people are around). The article recommended hiding out of the horse’s sight and using brief shocks to discourage unwarranted, aggressive behavior — and it emphasized that the key was to make sure that you were there, out of sight but consistently monitoring, for a minimum of 3 days. Being out of sight gets around the “I’ll be good (only) when Mommy’s around” problem. I didn’t actually end up using one, as my mare’s nastiness isn’t actually putting other horses in danger, but it seems like for a horse that truly was dangerously aggressive to other horses, in the right hands it could be a good tool for addressing a problem that never happens when a person is within disciplining-distance of the horse.
You should out that vet right here so that no one uses her.
I second cattypex: out the vet if at all possible. Anyone, especially a professional, who takes such decisions into their own hands without consulting the rightful owners is not fit to be practicing, IMHO. I’m so disappointed to hear that your dog was treated that way by someone who really should know better. Shame on him for what he put your dog (and indirectly, you!) through.
For every owner/trainer using a training tool correctly on any animal, I believe there are many more using it incorrectly, whether intentionally or not. It’s those eggies, unfortunately, who give the reputable, knowledgeable people a bad name.
OT: A movie about Polo! “The Polo Kid”
http://www.thepolokid.com/
Have you ever heard of Steve Rother?
I saw him in a clinic on Sunday at the Northwest Horse Fair and Expo in Albany. He was FANTASTIC.
He was showing how you desensitize a horse to scary things and how to deal with those scary things if you’re on a trail. Trail stuff is mostly what he does, but his videos and philosophies would work for any breed and any discipline. he’s very simple and uncomplicated.
His method goes basically along the lines of, “do what i ask you, or i make you work.” He preaches to let the horse choose, because if the horse can make the mental choice then the training will be longer term.
During the clinic, he got on this little appy ex-eventer who was scared of the obstacles on the right side of the arena. The appy wanted to go to the left side of the arena where the gate was. So Steve hopped on, and make the horse lope circles by the gate and just WORK over there. Then he loped to the far side of the arena and encouraged the horse to calm down and go slow. Obviously, the horse didn’t want to. So he loped around the arena several times: when he was on the “safe” side, he made the horse work and pushed the horse. But when he got to the “scary” side, he encouraged the horse to go slow and even stand. After a couple laps, the horse realized that being by the scary stuff meant he could relax, so the horse did just that; he relaxed and stood happily near the scary stuff. Steve did all this without any gimmicks or tools. Just plain old simple horsemanship. He barely even touched the reins.
But, everyone has their faults, and his is very expensive videos. $70 for one video. But I guess it’s better than blowing your money on crap like carrot sticks and shock collars.
I was really impressed with this guy, and he does have a groundwork video (also, he is located in Spokane, WA and has summer camps and summer apprenticeship programs):
http://horseteacher.com/
I’ve seen Steve Rother several times at the Central Washington State Fair, and liked some of his stuff, up until he bloodied the nose of a ‘bolter on the ground’ and left the horse with whip welts all over the hindquarter and hind legs. Horse would bolt on the ground, had no respect for the halter, so SR tied him to the rail, w/ about 8 feet of slack, sat on the rail and sent him off…until he hit the end of the rope. Snap…whip on the ass to go the other way, hits the other end of the rope, snap, whip on the ass, etc. This went on about 15 times, until the halter had rubbed the bridge of his nose bloody raw. Sure, the horse now respected the rope halter and would give in (must have hurt like hell with all the sweat dripping in the area), but was the blood necessary?
Was “sending him off” necessary? Why not let the HORSE take the bolting action and punish HIMSELF?
Rush, rush, rush, rush, rush…why?
And again, pretty sure a standard issue stud chain would have solved that issue without leaving a mark. But ooooh noooooes! Not a STUD CHAIN!
Bring out the shock collar, but stud chains are abusive. Ooooookay….
I’m a huge fan of that method of training. It works particularly well on lazy horses. If lazy horse won’t canter and you don’t stop working them until they do, sooner or later lazy horse will realize doing what you ask the first time is FAR less work than fighting with you for ten minutes then doing it anyway.
(Yes. It took me ten minutes to get five strides of canter out of a horse. I’m not sure which of us was the most tired, but hopefully next time I ride her she’ll remember and do it the first time).
Oh Wow! Shock collars! Really? You are right. I am a new horse owner and it is very hard to know what is right. I would never in a million years even think of using a shock collar. Yes I got sucked into the natural horsemanship, but Im really starting to see its not what I thought at all. I try to do what works best for my boy. I will never use aids or force with him. I am blessed to have such a good boy. All you have to do is growl and back him up like it was stated above. I have found I like Carolyn Resnicks stuff. Myhorse.com also has wonderful articles and advice. Keep up the good work on here because I need this. I dont know it all and never will and I like being able to come on here and see the truth and what ideas people come up with. Everyone does a great job on here.
There is nothing natural about anything on this Kooks site. Aside from the rope halters she is as far from other (kooky) natural horsemanship trainers. The bitting rig she advertises is absurd.
Oh please PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can we have a gadget play day where we get all these coocoonuts and use thier “toys” on them while thier horses/dog/animals and us watch and enjoy the show??!!!
Oh please Fugs please.
But seriuosly, when are these people going to learn? A possible market for mid america summer camps to help newbies?? I dont know, it makes my brain hurt trying to help the dumb people.
Hey that’s not even funny – did you read about the French TV show?
http://newshyderabad.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/shock-as-reality-show-invites-contestants-to-kill/
I will stop complaining about Flavor Of Love now!
OMG! Maybe god has run out of brains but not skin and bones?
I just dont have any other explanation for all the stupid in the world!
Ooh, my personal favorite ‘ground manners’ issue is, “Hi. I don’t want to be caught from the field today.”
This is going to sound completely batty, but I’ve found that crawling on your hands and knees approaching the horse at an angle and then standing up about seven feet from them slowly will make them stand still because they’re too busy wondering what the hell you’re doing to run away. Of course if they’re in a bunch of horses crawling around on the ground isn’t the best plan, and I only do it when the grain bucket fails, but it works every time.
I have had some really hard to catch horses (Lucy in particular wanted NOTHING to do with me – she was easy to catch once, at the auction yard, LOL!) and it has been cured every time with cookies. The urge to eat seems to be stronger than any urge to avoid work. I know there are exceptions but I haven’t met any so far!
yeah, cookies has always worked for me, too. So simple. And eventually you can phase them out and only have them once in a while, but darned if those horses won’t keep coming over to check if they won the jackpot every day.
My gelding is the jealous type. There have only been one or two occasions in ten years where he hasn’t come (some times running, most often walking but in my general direction). I always have cookies and he and the other horses in the herd know it. Being a late cut stallion, he dominant in the herd and if other horses beat him to the gate to meet me he moves them out of the way (using body language or a nip, nothing violent). He has learned that if I have to walk out into the field to get him, whichever horses are between me and him will get his cookies. Now he doesn’t want to risk it!
My hard to catch mare was cured when I caught all her pasture mates and fed them where she could see them but not get at the food. At the end of a week of that three times a day she would shove her nose in the halter to get her meals. It was easy, NO food, not even treats to tempt her until she was caught . I tied her by the hay and mash for each meal, and didn’t catch her for anything but food for the week. Gotta love morgans and their tummies…
I REFUSE to catch a horse with cookies. What I have found that works for me is simply following them calmly at a walk until they stop. Keep enough pressure on them that they can’t go back to grazing or ignore you (depending on the size of the pasture that can be tough but on 10 acres I have never had a problem). The first couple times it may take a while but eventually they get bored with the fact that I don’t just go away. The only way I use cookies in the catching is AFTER they have been haltered in the pasture and lead to the gate… then they can have a cookie. None of mine are hard to catch so this has never been a huge challenge, just on a couple old broodmares that seem to have a timer set to when those 5, 7 & 9 month shots are due!
Yes, that’s the old fashioned walking down method that I advocate, also. You don’t chase them. You just calmly walk after them and don’t let them rest. Usually this teaches even the most evasive horse that there’s just no point and they might as well get caught.
But I do fall back on cookies just because it’s faster.
And seriously, if people would just have to handle old broodmares for a few months, they would ALL have ground-manner-skills AND timing AND better body language — ’cause you either have those things or you DIE. Those old mares will run your butt over without a second thought if you aren’t on the ball.
Heh, I have the opposite problem… the horses loooooove it when I come out and all come galloping up to me (no treats!). I have to shoo them away after saying hi or they’ll mill around and start bickering. I got knocked around a bit over the weekend and now have crooked glasses and a black eye… I’d rather to have to go out there and herd them in than have them all come running. With the herd mentality, a longe whip doesn’t really help (as I’ve found out the hard way as well).
So as a beginner, I’ve found that some things I like learning the hard way, but the thing is, with horses, there are just some things that if you learn the hard way, you or your horse can end up dead. It’s not going to hurt your horse if you forget to take off their (breakaway/leather) halter before turning them out, but forgetting to close a stall door when your barn is right off the highway can get your horse and several people killed.
horses that are hard to catch are my specialty worked with a few no one could catch. the one i remember most was this poor little pony i rescued who’s owners kept in a 6×12 dog kennel. they also would get drunk and let overweight adults ride this poor class B pony until one day pony had enough and blew up thats how he found his way to me. i put him in a smaller paddock then found no one could catch him you couldent even box him in as he would run right over people he hated people so much. what i have found works is just spend time with them. you know how much time i spent just sitting out there reading a book?heck if you are going to read the paper anyway might as will do it by the horse you cant catch. it works well to just ignore them they will get curious and want to check you out when that happens i always have yummy treats with. i give them the treat and call it for the day. the most extreme case i had was that pony and it took a good month to earn his trust the other i have delt with just a few hours to a few days but it never fails. i love watching people run around chasing the horse to catch it. that does nothing but give the horse a reason to avoid you
LOL that’s a good one!
When I was a kid I would let my horse graze on the lawn while I played, doing handstands and cartwheels and stuff. When she didn’t want to leave the nice grass, I would just cartwheel my way up besides her (because she ignored that) and grab her.
She was still fooled by the cartwheels even years later.
This is really funny! Granted it works! I haven’t had to go passed the grain bucket… I have 2 OTTStbd mares and they usually do not want to be caught. I have a 40 acre pasture, it can be hard sometimes! I used the grain bucket and I wanted to give them treats with the halter in my hand to try and teach them that I will not always catch them to work. When I don’t have a halter, they come to see me on their own… silly mares!!!!
It takes a little longer, but my guy will come up and ask to be included if I start grooming my mare.
I agree with ez2bbad64′s advice to spend time in the pasture. My specific technique to change their attitude about being caught is to make it pleasant. Treats, grooming, a nice walk to a grazing spot and no work. Do that a few days and they will start coming to you for their “walks.”
Also, make sure that training/riding time is mostly pleasant so they don’t dread it.
My 27 year old mare, 24 year old gelding, 8 year old gelding and 9 year old donkey are all pastured together. The 8 year old gelding is the only one that gets ridden regularly and, of course, is the hardest to catch. I’ve solved this problem for now by catching the mare and taking her to the barn, giving her cookies. All the others follow wanting cookies too. When Tavis comes up to get his cookie I loop the lead rope around his neck and he is caught. I then remove the halter from the mare and put it on him and off we go. I can catch him by himself sometimes by pretending great interest in the grass….moving leaves and poking around in the soil. He eventually becomes over come with curiosity and comes to investigate…that is when I “find” a cookie and give it to him…along with a halter and lead. Once caught though we don’t immediately rush off to the barn to get tacked up. We’ll just stand there under the tree where I will pet and scratch and feed treats for several minutes. That way he doesn’t necessarily associate getting caught with being worked so much.
My old coach had a young stallion (who had already proved himself worthy to keep his “boys”) who was MURDER to catch, we would try and catch him first and if he ran away, we would start bringing in all the other horses so he would see that everyone else was going in to eat dinner and that he would be all alone if he ran away.
By the end of the summer, he would toss his halter at you and call his baby call telling you it was time to go in and he would be good
Just goes to show, if you use what works with that particular horse (In Aura’s case, his social behavior:P) you get what you want in the end.
Honestly, I’m fifteen and I can handle that. When I took lessons from a jumper trainer, there were two stallions in the barn – big scary stallions. The one wasn’t bad, but the second one, the older one, seemed to think he could push everyone around. His owner led him with a whiffle ball bat and stud chain over his nose. Anyways, this stallion was loose in the arena (the makeshift paddock; the main one was basically a lake after the snow melted) and someone had to bring him in before I could ride. Well, being the “brave” teenager that I am, I walked in and grabbed him. Chain under the chin, of course; he was crazy enough to warrant that.
I walked him out into the aisleway, and seeing as how there was a mare in the cross ties, he puffed up and started jogging. One little shank and a sharp QUIT was all it took for him to deflate and calm down. Stallion safely in stall, no injuries, no mayhap. My trainer nearly had a heart attack about me handling Mr. Big Bad Stallion. He wasn’t bad, per say, he had just never been told NO.
I have nothing against stud chains, nothing at all. They’re a great tool, especially for people like me (5’4″ 120lbs) who can’t get the leverage to really discipline a horse that’s legitimately acting up. But please, if you lead anything around with a wiffle ball bat, pay the local hard-working 4-H kid who has a clue some money to put some ground manners on your horse. In my experience, half the problem is the owner being scared or unable to correct a horse, and when you get someone else to do it, someone with a crapload of confidence, your horse will be quite a bit better.
“My trainer nearly had a heart attack about me handling Mr. Big Bad Stallion. He wasn’t bad, per say, he had just never been told NO.”
Amazing how that works, isn’t it?
Like I have said before – the main problem with stallions is human beings treating them differently from mares and geldings. Mine has always been expected to have the same manners as a gelding or mare and, what do you know, he does. If that stallion at your barn had a little consistency and some boundaries for a month, I bet he’d be a different horse.
Lol @ trainer having a heart attack. I had a similar experience.
I was working at a riding school and they had a dealership for serious show jumpers on the same yard. There was a horse with a walk out pen who’s rug was wrapped arround his legs when it had been on him that morning, so I went in, picked it up and put it back on checking and tightening the straps. He put his ears back and snapped at me so a slapped him on the chest and said NO. He then tried to barge me, (not nasty like just ‘huh you shouted at me I’m gonna get in your face with my shoulder) so I put a bony finger firmly into the soft bit of his chest and a hand on his nose (he was loose in the stall) and backed him with a growl. He gave over. This had happened a few times when I was walking across the yard and heared hoofbeats, he came trotting determinedly round the corner towards me having dumped (the excellent) rider. I caught the reins and turned him, he reared a little and I ROARED at him, how dare he. He dropped sheepishly onto all fours and relaxed.
Then i found out he was a ‘nasty’ stallion. Ooops
That said I would not have wanted to ride him, he was nasty under saddle (had issues), but in hand he just hadn’t had anyone say NO to him. It hadn’t occured to me that he might be any different to the nippy, bargy, obnoxious little ponies I dealt with every day (other than bigger), and to be honest, he wasn’t really.
I had the same experience with a pony (about 13.2 hh) some kind of hackney x arab, the fugliest horse on the planet! he was bought for kids, but was allowed to win all the time. They used a stud chain over his nose and kept shanking him as they went. Obviously, the horse would never walk forward and had developped a vice of running backwards whenever someone would hook up a lead to his halter. This pony was boarded at our farm for the summer. ONe day, when I had to bring him back to his owners, I caught him in the field, tyed his lead and started walking forward confidently… no deal, he threw himself back, which pulled me back to earth quickly enough. I immediatly proceeded to smack his shoulder with the lead line and moved his fronts. I do not believe in stud chains, so there was no chain on his nose (the lead didn’t even have a chain on it). As soon as I was done moving his forehand, I started walking again. To my amazement he followed right along on a loose line!!!! I only needed to apply minimal pressure for him to move and her turned out to be the sweetest little guy! My diagnosis… he was super sensitive and the fact of having a stud chain on his nose and being shanked for nothing ALL the time caused him to go nuts and he would do anything to evade this. He went right in the trailer too… his first two trailering experiences having been totally traumatic to him, this one was great! no one was hurt and the horse led really good. When I got to his owners’ place, they told me to get out of the way, because they needed to put the stud chain on him. I told them NO, he didn’t need a stud chain and proceeded to lead him quietly out of the trailer, no fight! I’m sure they still use the chain today… they are idiots…
As i read this, I wonder how many “Soon to be FORMER Julie Goodnight Fans” will see it, and find their own perceptions of this woman going round and round, and down the drain.
I used to think it was close to miraculous that she could do so much with that little black horse she rides in exhibitions; now I can’t help but wonder where all that swift complaince might have come from. Yes, she is an excellent rider — but I think most if not all horses occasionally test to find out where the boundaries are.
I have dogs, and have used shock collars in the form of invisible fencing. Those prongs make contact around the neck, just about where a more alpha, more dominant dog would touch, or ‘punch’ or grab in order to disclipine a younger or less dominant dog. Horses, on the other hand, don’t discipline other horses that way. They are (DOH!) prey animals… and I cringe at the thought of a horse being jolted anywhere on the neck. Flight or fight… or deaddog compliance.
No, I don’t think I’ll be purchasing anything from the Julie Goodnight School of Horsemanship after seeing this. Defend her if you will — she has a huge bag of tricks. But something inside me is pretty unsettled that anyone who is held up as a role model would end up resorting to, or recommending that others would resort to, electrical ‘correction’ on a horse.
“I have dogs, and have used shock collars in the form of invisible fencing. Those prongs make contact around the neck, just about where a more alpha, more dominant dog would touch, or ‘punch’ or grab in order to disclipine a younger or less dominant dog.”
Um, no. One dog disciplining another dog either gets in their face, or knocks them over with their shoulder. Going for the neck, under the chin, is a fighting move intended to do serious harm.
I very much dislike “invisible fencing.” Why?
1.) Someone comes down the sidewalk. Nice dog goes over to say hello. When he gets close, he gets a shock. Where does the shock come from? All the dog sees is the person. After a few people go by, the dog doesn’t like people any more. Congratulations. Especially when you get sued when the kid from down the street enters your fenceless yard and the dog bites him.
2.) Some dogs will go right through the shock to chase something. Then, when they decide to go home, guess what? They can’t get in.
3.) The irresponsible jerk down the block lets his dog run loose. It comes into your fenceless yard, and beats up your dog. Maybe you lose a couple of fingers breaking up the fight. It happens.
Nope. No invisible fences for my dogs.
Ruthie
I know some people love it, but I agree with your points on invisible fencing. I’ve house/pet sat for a friend who had it. Her dog ran through the fence while I was gone (he was mostly and outside dog) and couldn’t come home. I found him in the neighbor’s yard. Once I took the collar off, he ran right home.
I would use it with a physical barrier for a dog that likes to dig under or jump over regular fencing.
I did like her idea of chasing the mare away from the gelding to re-iterate the fact that you’re the herd alpha. But it’s kind of ironic that she points out that the stick is “for your protection—not to beat on the horse with.”
You know, if the mare went for the gelding and forgot that I was in the way, you BET I’d whack her with the stick. If the concern is to make it safe for the humans out there, reminding the mare about human personal space is as far as it needs to go.
Unless the mare is running the gelding and really super aggressive, which I don’t know, I am not a huge fan of interfering with normal herd dynamics. If the mare is simply snarling at him during dinnertime, hey, let him learn his hay pile is whichever one the mare does not want to be at. Part of my problem with this answer is that Julie doesn’t know what is going on here either – there is a big difference between a mare that will chomp at a horse who gets into her “bubble” and a mare that aggressively RUNS a beta horse and will run it through fence. The first kind of horse doesn’t need fixing – she’s being a normal horse. In any herd, someone will be the boss. If I rescue three 30 year olds from an auction, I guarantee you that at dinnertime, someone is going to decide to be the leader and make snakeface at the other two or maybe chomp one of them and take the choice (to his/her eyes!) pile of hay. That’s NORMAL.
Right, I just thought it was funny that she was implying that it was cruel to beat on them with the stick, but the shock collar is a perfectly acceptable method?
The rule in our pasture is that, if not on a lead rope, they can do whatever they want as long as they don’t come in whacking distance of whatever human is in there with them.
Ok, I’m probably going to get flamed for this, but how is using an e-collar any differnt than using an e-collar on a dog when teaching him to stay within the boundries of an invisible fence line? Granted, she shouldn’t have mentioned the e-collar in response to a question from obvious beginners, but if handled correctly, in extreme situations as JG pointed out, I don’t see anything wrong with it. Two years ago when I moved my mare to a new barn, she became extremely aggressive in her stall. She was reacting to the automatic waterer shared by two stalls that hissed when refilling. If I had known about the e-collar back then, I would have tried it, because nothing was working, not kicking chains, nothing. It took a week for her to calm down and the damage to her back feet and the waterer cost me nearly $1000. Thankfully the barn owner didn’t kick me out, but she wasn’t happy with the situation either.
I don’t agree with shock collars in any case (due to my own dog’s psychological trauma stemming from use of a shock collar), but the difference is that horses are prey animals. They’re used to being able to run away from danger, and if you’re going to keep zapping them, they’re not going to know the real reason they’re being zapped- all they know is that there’s this thing zapping their neck that won’t go away. I know that with the horses at the barn I work at, if the alpha mare is frustrated, she takes it out on her herdmates. So it just exacerbates the problem, where she goes after a herdmate, gets zapped, vents her frustrations on her herdmates again, gets zapped again, and it just goes on and on with no real purpose.
OMG, BlackOpal, I almost started my post to you with “BO!” I think that would be a bit rude!
Anyway, it’s not so much that using an e-collar/shock collar/any other device that causes pain is overly horrible. I saw Cesar Milan use it as a way to keep a dog away from large machinery on a farm. The dog would try to chase the large tractors and combines on the farm, and he would get in front of them and could get killed. Because the dog could not hear any verbal commands when near the machinery because it was so loud, and even a dog whistle didn’t work, Cesar used an e-collar. However, he kept it on vibrate only and did not allow it to actually shock the dog. The vibration was plenty for the dog turn around and leave the tractor and the dog was trained within a few days.
I personally am looking at one of the citronella sprays to use on my dog because he’s a barker. We’re moving to a fenced property where I want him to be allowed to run while I’m inside working. But I can’t be right next to him working him through barking at every little thing all the time. So I am going to try one of those collars to change his behavior. I will never use a shock collar myself, but a “far away” device can really help in situations like this.
However, in this situation with the horse, it is absolutely clear to me that this mare has hormonal issues that are causing her to be aggressive. The fact that she resorted directly to the shock collar without looking at any underlying medical problems is beyond belief. Plus, let’s think about how little it takes for a horse to feel a fly on it’s rump to twitch and get it to leave. I can only imagine what a shock would do for them.
Plus, she’s saying claiming to be a “natural horsemanship” person. There is absolutely nothing natural about using an electric device to cause pain to solve this issue. If she were just a “horse trainer,” then I could accept her method of choice, even though I would never do that on my horse or dog.
I also find it ironic that she says to use the stick to chase the mare away but not to hit her with it, but then it’s okay to use a shock collar. So she’s just substituting one form of pain for another. It’s really illogical, IMHO.
Actually training collars and invisible fencing collars are two different things, even though they work similarly.
Invisible fencing is a passive collar, it works automatically without the intervention of any human. With invisible fencing there is a consistent response, if the dog gets within a certain distance of the fence line he gets zapped. This will happen every time the dog gets too close (and there’s collars that will give a reminder buzz first before zapping). The dog learns very quickly where they are allowed to go and where they cannot go. In other words invisible fencing for dogs is similar to electric fencing for horses. They are humane because the dog learns the rules quickly and stops challenging the fence in a very short time.
Electric training collars, on the other hand, are active collars that rely completely on humans to trigger them. IME most humans are simply not consistent enough to use them humanely. You need to have a good sense of timing, as well as be a good, consistent trainer before you can even consider using an electric collar, otherwise you will end up randomly punishing both bad and good behaviors. People tend to hit the button late or early (thereby punishing behaviors that don’t need to be punished), or use it excessively (hitting the button over and over again when the confused animal doesn’t seem to get it). People also tend to want their animals to be ‘fair’ to each other, forgetting that horses are herd animals with a distinct hierarchy.
As Fugly said, unless you have a horse chasing other horses into a fence or running them into the ground it’s better to let them sort themselves out, which may mean a bit of squabbling at first. Intervening in normal herd squabbles could lead to the horse being punished with the collar connecting the punishment with the other horse and retaliating further, thus escalating the fighting. Theoretically you could train a horse with a collar I suppose, but anyone good enough to do that would be good enough to train them using more traditional methods. (and for the record I oppose most uses of electric training collars on dogs for the same reasons, at least for the general public. Training for police dogs etc excluded)
“The dog learns very quickly where they are allowed to go and where they cannot go. In other words invisible fencing for dogs is similar to electric fencing for horses. They are humane because the dog learns the rules quickly and stops challenging the fence in a very short time.”
No. They are not humane. The difference is that electric fences can be seen. Horses learn to respect it because they can SEE that touching the wire is what gets them shocked. Without extensive training, the dog won’t understand where the shock comes from – and will usually blame it on whatever tempted him to approach the invisible boundary. And very few people do that training, because it takes a pro trainer plus time and effort.
Ruthie, who knows too many dogs made neurotic and/or vicious by the evil things.
Totally agree. They are evil. I have seen a number of dogs refuse to pee in the grass because as they squatted a little too close to the underground wire, WHAM! Horse know not to touch a live wire after once or twice. Dogs can’t see the wire, only the little flags. It’s a stupid way to manage a dog.
The only thing I have seen it used for that I can agree with (the collars) is snake aversive training. Other that than, it’s a quick fix that has long term consequences.
Both types of collars can be triggered by other electronic devices. I have friends who shocked the daylights out of a dog they were caring for. It was screaming and writhing and they thought it was having seizures — and this happened several times and went on for several minutes. When they figured it out, they took of the collar and tested it. They said it was EXTREMELY
…EXREMELY painful. It happens all the time. I would think that a training shock collar would be safer than an invisible fence collar because the training collar is used under immediate supervision and then removed, normally. I would never want to leave a shock collar on my dog. Actually, I would never want to use a shock collar at all, but I hear what some people’s arguments are in favor of them, and they make sense. Still, it creeps me out.
I vote for PDJ’s videos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi4c7MNY46U
I am just… wow. Completely boggled.
I’m TOTALLY not a horse trainer. I grew up around horses, and I’m an OKAY rider but.. geez. How on EARTH can anyone think that’s a good idea?
So… if I admit I’ve known about this method for literally years, will I be killed, hunted, or persecuted? Mind you, I haven’t ever used it on a horse, for a couple of reasons.
One, to buy a top quality shock collar costs upwards of $400. I live in Indiana, where quite a few hunters and sportsmen live, near the InnoTek factory, so I’m pretty confident about prices on shock collars– you buy a cheap collar, you are buying junk. It’s pay top dollar, or get a piece of equipment that might or might not work correctly. At $400 you can try an awful lot of other ‘tricks’.
Two, by the time I rig a cribbing strap or some other strap to hold a shock collar, shave the horse’s neck, then stand around waiting for the horse to misbehave… I can usually find a much simpler solution to the problem.
However, I do know of a man who used this on a mare. She would be the innocent sweetheart when humans were around, but as soon as people left, she would make the hay feeders into a war zone. She didn’t care who she hurt. He used it on her one time– she completely quit her behavior. or at least, HE said she did. ~shrugs~
I’ve seen horses who were nasty aggressive to other horses. In my experience, the easiest and surest way to fix the problem is to simply remove the offending horse– however, that isn’t always possible. My gelding currently is still learning how to behave out with my mares. He learned to ‘dive’ and be nasty from a mare who used to do the same thing to him, before I owned him. He’s much better than he used to be– perhaps someday he’ll get completely over his threatening behavior, if I continue to deal fairly with him and the mares, and continue to teach him how to ‘move’ another horse without attacking.
Which brings me, in this long post, to the real issue I have with Goodnight’s post. Teaching horses correct herd dynamics is a job for a professional, not a beginner. Chasing the mare off with a whip just reinforces her own behavior. Alpha owner chases (hits?) the mare with a whip. Once Alpha owner leaves, now Alpha mare repeats trained behavior with gelding. So the owner just taught the mare that the dominant one should attack those under him or her. Guess Goodnight never really studied herd dynamics enough to learn that one.
Back to the shock collar for one more thing– I used one on a dog I owned once. He had learned to chase vehicles. It was either teach him to avoid them, or risk having him hit, or God forbid having someone wreck. If there was no other way that I could find to prevent a dangerous or injurious horse behavior, I would probably be willing to consider a shock collar. HOWEVER… I would never be a proponent of such a training device in any hands that were less than very experienced, nor would I ever suggest such a method until every other option had been exhausted.
Again, I have to say that the internet has opened up a whole new world for people to show their idiocy! I never fail to be amazed at the stuff FHOTD finds on line. Keep up the good work exposing these fools!!!
I’ve seen horse shock collars before from the same retailer that I get my e collars from for my dogs, but I never thought for a second it had anything to do with parelli. Although I guess it is stupid and retarded so I guess I should have associated parelli simply based on that LOL.
I’m the person that will spend hours upon hours making sure all cords running through the barn are covered by rubber mats or otherwise, and there is no chance a horse could step on a cord at any time. Whether this is true or not, I don’t know but the theory sounds plausible to me but I have always been told horses are particularly sensitive to electricity. Supposedly if a horse steps on a cord and even a small part of the metal wiring is exposed and a horse steps on it with their metal shoes, the horse can die instantly. Like I said, I don’t know how true that is, but I’m sure stepping on exposed wiring in metal shoes isn’t a good idea, and its way better safe than sorry!
I may be excessively paranoid about my horses being zapped, but that is a very common theory and PURPOSELY zapping your horse just sounds absolutely brain dead to me. My boyfriend just about had an aneurysm when I told him someone actually came up with that idea.
I just don’t get what happened to boarding your horse at a good stable and taking lessons before you go it alone. Not everyone can afford or even wants to board at some fancy ass show barn, but there are very decent lower priced barns who’s clients show for fun at lower levels that can show you what you need to know to ride and keep horses on a recreational basis.
In all fairness – this is Julie Goodnight, not Parelli. We can’t blame him for this one!
But I know, I do not know what happened to actual lessons, either. I guess that process is too slow for our wants-everything-now-and-wants-it-to-be-easy society.
What breed of dog is that in your avatar? S/he looks so much like my Skipper!
I’m not sure actually, lol. He’s an spca mutt we think is at least part German shepherd lol
Haha, mine too. You didn’t get him in MN a few years ago, did you? There are a lot of these “white butt dogs” (mines got the batman symbol on his hiney) running around, with a similar build and markings.
Nope, we’re from Canada. He’s almost 8 years old now
Oh yea, and on one other note:
Dear Horse Mutterer,
I’m writing on behalf of a consortium of horse trainers who live on the fringes of society. We don’t give clinics, we don’t write books, and frequently we don’t wear designer cowboy hats or speak with special accents. After a short conference that took place one Saturday morning when we were all recovering from our early morning feeding, tack cleaning, and muck out time, we came to the conclusion to send you a short letter with a request.
We would like the term Natural Horsemanship back, please. You may keep the capitalized letters– it was working pretty good for us without the copyright. We understand your desire to use the term. After all, if Natural food sells well, it just makes sense to have a great marketing tool like Natural Horsemanship. Out of concern for your potentially decreased revenue, we have put together a few basic marketing slogans you might consider, in place of our much loved and now much distorted natural horsemanship, which really was originally used to signify a horse that was trained… you know… naturally. Please see attached suggestions for new slogans that you may use.
Sincerely,
a natural horseman
Slogans that might sell well:
1. Au Naturel Horsemanship
2. No Trans Fat Horsemanship
3. Low Sugar Horsemanship (With Asper- ity)
4. Reduced Fat Horse Training
5. “Not Yer All” ‘s Horsemanship
I agree! People have completely messed up the name of natural horsemanship. And its really too bad because some people could really use the practical approach to their obvious problems.
@ Charm: LOL. As someone who is interested in marketing, I follow your drift.
A few other terms that might sell well:
1. Green Horsemanship
2. Environmentally-Friendly Horse Training
3. Organic Equine Chemistry
I could see this list getting really long….
I have a friend who is a certified John Lyons Trainer and a certified riding instructor. Her methods are “natural,” but she and I were discussing it once and she said there is nothing natural we do with our horses. If we did go natural, we wouldn’t use bits, saddles, and all that other stuff that goes along with it. We’d have that Black Beauty relationship with our horse. Made sense to me. So I do my best NOT to use the word natural whenever I can!
That “au naturale” horsemanship could be either VERY interesting — or very, very scary. Climate would have to be taken into consideration when building a facility for such training.
The Parellis have a northern facility, and one in Florida for wintertime work. Maybe one day, their property will go up for sale. Might work just fine for an au naturale horsemanship “home base”.
Wouldn’t even have to change the monograms on the towels. Perfectly Nude Horsemanship.
Oh lord that is scary. What is even scarier is I know someone who would use it too. I certainly hope she never finds out about the shock collar idea, although she’s soooo into the ‘natural’ horsemanship crap. All I ever saw her do was abuse the hell out of her fugly stud colt. When I finally got sick of the horse abuse and told her she needed to cut it out she declared we could no longer be friends. Fine with me, I don’t want to be associated with someone like that!
Larry was featured on your blog a while ago (MNHTA, for being really expensive, I think it was new years eve), and he’s a good horse trainer now but… a total redneck. He’s still a good guy, but I don’t think he’d argue
. He spent many years doin’ it wrong, and being taught to do it wrong by the family members he was living with and the people bringing him crazy horses, and has a ton of stories that will remind you not to drink and train. He may be the only trainer to have used trick training to get out of a raccoon poaching ticket XD!
Anyway, one of his stories was about a bet he had with some guy. This douche wanted to see if you could teach a horse to stand stock still, and not move. Until you said to move. For hours. I don’t remember why, and Larry took him up on it. This needed to be done ASAP for some reason as well. He used a shock collar, and every time the horse moved a hoof when he was told to stand he shocked him. Come demo day, that horse stood stock still for hours in the middle of his pasture, and I think he sold this poor horse to this guy
. As far as I know, that’s the only time he used one and it wasn’t advocated as part of a trainer’s toolbox (He preferred halters, lead ropes, tarps, etc, the usual. There was only one weird thing he liked to use, it’s $0.50 at any hardware store and completely optional if you didn’t want to use it. The philosophy trumps any particular tool). It was this sort of crap that got Larry out of the training people’s horses business and into the teaching people business. Less pain on your back and fewer horses returned with stupid human problems 
.
One of the big problems I’ve found while trying to learn horse training is that most of the trainers are guys. There are certain things that a big guy body can do that us ladies, even those of us built like brick houses, can’t do. One of my issues with my 3 yo QH mare was that she was a real bitch about her feet. Flying backward, pulling her leg out of your hand, leaning on you, etc. Part of it was my fault, from stuff that happened when she was younger, and I didn’t know what to do. Turns out training videos don’t talk back! So I brought her up to work on this issue. Larry has been a farrier for years, so he has worked on this issue before. One of the things he did while we were working on her was holding her halter with one hand while working on her back leg with the other. Even at 3, she was 15.2+ hh. There is no way that I can reach from her head to her back end and get anything done back there! He’s got several inches of height and reach on me. I need to find more techniques that shorter people can use on the average horse. Also, boobs get in the way, and they… impede some things. Guys usually have a more dominant posture (usually) than women, so they’re starting out in a different place than we are with body language and what they can make their bodies do. Like 80% of the horse world is women! Where are all the women in powerful public positions?!? Where are all these professional guys coming from, and where did all the women moving up the ranks go? We need more minimal-crazy pro women to ask questions and lead the public narratives in the horse industry.
I will agree with you about picking up feet! I myself hired a big dude to help me with the VLC. He simply needed to learn in a very non-violent way that the human was not going to let go, so it was best to give up. THIS human had too bad of a back to teach that lesson. Having someone else do it was money well spent.
A trick I learned when helping with horse trimming and shoeing– but it takes two people.
Have one person pick up the horse’s hoof. The second person will stand on the opposite side of the horse. Person number two is in charge of a soft cotton rope, which is looped around the horse’s ankle, then brought up and over the horse’s back. From that position, it is absolutely easy to keep the horse’s hoof up. When your horse jerks her foot away from you, the handler, your helper’s job is just to keep that foot from being dropped to the ground again. In other words, your horse didn’t ‘get away’ when she jerked her hoof away, nor does she feel as if her leg is trapped– she just can’t set it down!
I’ve used this three times, on three different horses that simply wouldn’t accept having their feet held. One of the horse’s even fought being trimmed when tranqued! Another horse was fine until you tried to hammer a nail. Then she went ballistic. For all three horses this method was quick, painless, and for whatever reason it was far less traumatic and frightening for handler and horse. Within a minute or two the horses relaxed and quit fighting the hoof handler.
As with all situations, I don’t recommend trying this if you’ve never handled horses professionally. I don’t want to see some person take a half broke colt, throw a cheap nylon rope around its ankle, and get into a nasty fight. The whole point of this isn’t a submission thing– it simply takes away the attitude of “You can’t MAKE me!” that some otherwise broke horses will have when dealing with footwork.
My 4-year-old Paso is still a stinker about feet. He picks them up just fine but doesn’t want to hold them up for more than 5 seconds. Vet and farrier have both told me it is a behavioral problem, not pain.
First, I either tie him up or get someone else to hold him. I don’t use cross ties because he doesn’t move around, he just flails with the leg I’m holding. Not trying to kick me, just trying to shake me off. My method is to never, ever give up and will literally hang on to his foot for 30+ minutes if that’s how long he tries to get out of holding it up. It’s a lot like arm wresling with a horse and is extremely exhausting!! If I lose my grip or my strength gives out and he gets his foot away from me, no biggie. Just pick it up again and hang on until he is still. THEN I pick the hoof. I don’t stop until I decide I am finished with that foot, then I hold it until he is relaxed enough for me to set it down.
When I first started working with him, it took over 30 minutes per hoof. (I don’t even attempt to pick if I don’t have time to work with him. Sometimes I do just one foot and then call it a day.) But after a couple of weeks he has learned that I will not give up. It takes a while to wear out a Paso, but eventually he gets tired! These days, he fights for about 5 minutes on the first hoof and then is an angel for the other three. We’re getting there!
So even if you aren’t physically strong enough to force them to hold their leg up, being annoying and pesky for long enough should convince the horse that it is easier to just hold the foot up rather than fight you for it. I’m sure my method is far from perfect, but it has worked for me and I think it’s a good alternative for someone without a lot of muscle!
Oh, hey, Clinton Anderson is OK with the e collar.
The front page has some other testimonials and success stories.
“When you touch an electric fence and you get zapped, the electric fence really doesn’t hurt you very much. What it does more than anything is it surprises you. It gives you a surprise that you weren’t expecting. ”
I agree with this. I once touched my boss’s fence when unloading some wood. It didn’t really hurt me, but the huge bruise that developed around the white mark on my finger where I contacted the fence did most certainly surprise me.
A city kid came out once and grabbed the fence with both hands to climb over it. I believe that it didn’t really hurt him– other than the white marks on his hands.
All joking aside, with our dog shock collar, we shocked ourselves with it– the lowest settings were more like a niggle, but the highest settings we didn’t even try, nor did we EVER use them on the dog. Don’t know what Clinton’s little gadget works like, but I’d hope it’s in the low setting category.
I went to a Clinton Anderson clinic and he mentioned the “shock halter”, not sure if that’s what he called it. (its been years ago I went). He answered a lady’s question about how to correct a stallion that was in a stall and was very aggressive when other horses would go by his stall. He said that he would recommend this type of halter for this type of situation. I had never heard of this before and to be quite honest, I was half listening. Guess I was suprised Clinton didn’t say to “flex” the horse 5 million times into submission..LOL
That is great! I love the example he gives for the electric fence. Although I have never used one, I believe an e-collar in the wrong hands could cause adverse behavior in a horse but used as a training tool in the right hands, it could be useful. There are different approaches to solving behavioral issues and each horse may respond to different methods in a different manner. Agree or disagree, you can’t argue with the electric fence analogy.
Honestly, I read that article and it did make me think a little bit: maybe the e-collar MIGHT be appropriate for a hrose in a specific situation, if you are willing to put in the time, consistency, maintenance and effort to make sure the lesson is short-and-sweet? If you don’t just strap the thing on the horse, turn it up to 100 and mash the button whenever you get angry, it might actually work?
I love this paragraph: “This does not substitute for good training. This is not a substitute for my videos and good horsemanship skills. Nobody is trying to say that it does. This is a device to help horses with severe bad habits. It does it in a humane way that is not going to hurt the horse and not going to make them be scared of you at the same time.”
I know, I know, it’s the basic disclaimer, his lawyers probably made him put it in there when of course, he would’ve left it out so that everyone could think he’s a horse-shocking monster…but seriously! It’s so true! NO TOOL is a substitute for TRAINING…it is a device meant to enhance communication, whether it’s a training collar for dogs or a bit for horses: it is supposed to be a bridge between desire and action. Once the bridge is made, the tool is no longer necessary. When applied correctly and varied to the animal’s individual temperament, that’s a win-win.
With that said, I think he might refine that paragraph and the words “severe bad habits.” The last thing I’d want to see is someone trying to stim a barn-bound cribber in a performance barn. Great way to create even more problems!
How ridiculous. I feel the same way toward horse remote shock collars, as I do dog ones. Aversive training doesn’t work! And if you think it does, its like a band-aid. Of course most animals will respond quickly to pain, but you are not getting a solid understanding of what you want of them, only fear. You cannot possibly know what the horse is thinking when its doing the behavior, and your timing can be so off that you will cause more problems! Example: Horse paws at wall in trailer. You take your remote, and Zap it when you hear it pawing. There are so many things the horse could associate the shock with… The hay bag zapped me, the HORSE trailer zapped me *causing more issues!*, I touched my nose to the side and it shocked me… like you said, there are thousands of opportunities for this to go wrong! For every carrot stick you sell and magic halters, why don’t you read a book by someone who KNOWS what they’re doing?! My goodness!
Yeah I would think the horse thinks “I get shocked in the trailer: solution, no more loading!”
What’s natural about shock collars?
Okay, I’m putting on my flame suit, but I have used a shock collar on my horse for extreme aggressive behavior in a small herd situation (when a colt was brought in and my gelding wanted to kill it). The collar was used as a last resort and was highly effective after just two short sessions. In my defense, I am by no means a natural horsemanship trainer nor an “expert” nor an “out there”, masochistic horse owner…..I’m very responsible.
There is a mare in my barn who wanted to kill my colt. She is the herd matriarch, and she is ALPHA. She was very aggressive with my colt and would attack him. You know what I did? Let them hash it out anyway and the colt learned REALLY quick to stay away from Boss Mare, preferably with another horse in between them. I am somewhat over-protective of my colt, but that’s the turnout situation, and my desire to have him socialize and learn how to live in a herd outweighed my desire to “protect” him.
Nowadays, Boss Mare tolerates Colt, even if she doesn’t like him that much. She still chases him away from her on a regular basis if he invades her bubble, but no one died. No one got injured. I think that my colt has better manners because of it. Yes, the first few days I kept an eagle-eye on them with a longe whip in hand, just in case, but I never used it. Now my small herd is peaceful once again, colt included.
I can see where chock collar might be effective and acceptable in an extreme situation, especially if it is really dangerous or when NOTHING else has worked. I’d rather a misbehaving horse suffer some pain instead of a handler getting seriously injured.
I think the problem here is that Julie is recommending it to novices, and it’s not a super-dangerous situation nor has “everything else” been tried. And, in any case, I wouldn’t call using a shock collar natural horsemanship.
I read some more Julie Goodnight Q&A on her site. She lists a shock collar as a possible solution in a few of her replies. As far as I saw, she always recommended a more humane and/or “natural” solution first.
In one post (http://juliegoodnight.com/questionsNew.php?id=148) she specifically recommends this shock collar: http://www.tthorse.com/
Supposedly humans can’t even feel the low settings. So perhaps the actual pain to the horse is much less than one might think.
But I still wouldn’t call it “natural” or use it unless there was no other way.
I cannot BELIEVE she posted that on a public site. Amazing. As in ‘Oooh, Betsy just chased Dobbin, better go buy a shock collar!’ WTF!!!! Having just started training for others about a year ago….. I hesitate to tell anyone thast I even USE natural methods. It’s the slimy snake oil salesmen like Julie and Pat that give those of us who like nice, safe, calm, simple methods a bad name! And all the crap you NEED to buy! I have a stupid stick. Do I use it? Rarely. Just one more thing for me to drop and trip over! LOL I have a halter, a rope, a brain, and a round pen when the weathers’ nice! The pen isn’t to wear the poor horse out, its to give him space, to think, and to get the heck away from me if he wants to be bad.
Again, I can’t BELIEVE she posted that sh!% publicly. WTF?
My thoughts exactly. I do not make them put this stuff on their web sites. They do this all on their own. Some “wow, the public might not think that’s a good idea” alarm OUGHT to go off…but it doesn’t. Maybe someone needs a publicist?
I have a little story
I had spent all summer working on training a 7 year old belgian for a nonprofit as a volunteer. I worked on his line driving and getting him over his silly little fears (sticks, puttles, etc.) and teaching him to drive. He was mostly trained, but needed a little work. I did this while balancing taking care of my own horse, and working my summer job (still in high school, summers are usually busy)
So when school starts, instead of having me there on the weekends, they HIRED a natural horse trainer because she had *gasp* lost her job. She speant 2 MONTHS training him to respect personal bubble space, something I did with him in a day. When he would try to walk into me, I would step back into his chest and back him up until he figured out he couldn’t push me around. But she did all of this IN THE CORRAL, because she did not want to take him out because she was afraid she couldnt handle him. So, for 2 months, he was trapped in the corral working with her and her “natural ways” which drove him crazy. She started to complain that the horse would get annoyed with her and just stop after a while. One day I showed up, harnessed him up, and line drove him around the farm, and he was back to where he had been back when I had started after a few little recaps.
One of my FAVORITE things with this lady, was she tried to teach him body signals ONLY. well, we use ONLY verbal commands. When you are sitting on a train behind the horse, and the horse is wearing blinders, he is NOT going to see your body language to understand what he should be doing. She didn’t want to use verbal commands, but wanted to use body language. So, guess who is still back to square 1? oh well, hopefully I will have more time this summer…
I tried teaching other people what to do with him, and tried to come often, but they listened to her and thought he was too crazy to have out and handled around. Once he figured out that I wouldn’t put up with his nonsense, he would behave. Oh, and she called in sick for like 2 weeks because her horse had thrown her when she tried to get on bareback. apparently the horse had never been ridden bareback. Shows your training skills when your OWN HORSE has no idea what kind of natural things your trying to do!
Um, and if it was decently trained in the first place, bareback shoudn’t be a cause for alarm, unless you try to get on like you’re throwing feed sacks into the back of your truck!
I confess that I’m a sack of potatoes rider… I decided to ride Zorro bareback yesterday (with my mom leading us in a round pen LOL) to start working on my balance and seat muscles. When I first got on, Zorro rolled his eyes in sort of a “oh god this is pathetic” sort of way. He threatened to buck, but we moved along VERY slowly while both he and I got used to the balance issues. I know it was really awkward and uncomfortable for both of us, but he was very patient with me. Not bad for a 4-year-old!
And boy, was it sobering to realize how much of a crutch saddles are for me!! I need to go back to Balance 101. Time for some lunge line lessons…
When I moved to my last trainer she had me stay in the round pen on the lunge for the first month I rode with her. Kind of embarrassing after riding for years but it helped a whole bunch. Fixed balance issues, got my seat and legs where they are supposed to be, and in general strengthened muscles I previously ignored.
Glad to hear I’m not the only one!! We’re gonna try bareback in the round pen at a walk again today, and see if I can get used to moving WITH the horse, rather than thinking “Oh god I’m going to fall off” and seizing up.
My horse is a saint! Last year I had back/hip pain and could hardly walk. But I was going to ride bareback sort of. I bought a suede bareback pad and had a latigo and cinch put on it so it would be secure. At the time I did not have my 3 step mounting block just a 2 step. I tried to get on her and ending up scooching across her back like a crab to get my leg over her as it was to painful to lift in that direction. But she just stood there for me waiting patiently. I was so glad no one was around because it was pretty darn pathetic and totally UNgraceful. Once I was on I was OK. The suede bareback pad and jeans helps keep me on like velcro. I just love it for a quick ride. As a side note I took Cetyl M for people and the pain went away!
OMG! I should really know better by now. It seems that the more I read this blog, the more astonished and astounded I am by the ‘professionals’ and what they will post on the internet. I won’t even use a shock collar on my dog, much less my horse! The next thing we are going to see is advocates for using it on our children. I’m with Fhotd – big head banging on desk time for me……
Buck Brannaman’s “Groundwork” and “From the Ground Up” series’ are about as good as I’ve seen so far…awesome stuff. He’s really good at showing why things get done, and ensuring that there are no holes in your foundation.
Also, Josh Nichol just released a DVD series on the same subject, and it’s bound to be excellent as well (been riding with him for a few years http://www.joshnichol.com).
No idea why folks don’t spend the time to get things done right first before getting on board. I bought my critter knowing he’d only had 60 days a year before I bought him. Unfortunately, his owner decided to send him for a quick 3 day tune up, and it turned into a frazzle training session that he really didn’t get much out of. After buying him, I then got to spend the next nine months undoing all the well intentioned (but ultimately unproductive) work…all the while being teased for not “getting on and riding” by folks at my boarding barn. Yet funnily enough, the seasoned horses are still being taught how not to paw in cross ties, and my boy can be left dozing in the grooming stall without a even a halter on while I go get tack, go to the washroom etc.
I guess I just like life to be a little easier then some, I guess.
I knew a horse that had a corrective shock collar. All it did was teach him to rear and flip over.
That’s what I would think. It’d be like being caught in electric fence. The whole point of electric fence is the horse can get AWAY from it (the desired behavior). They can’t get away from a collar.
And to think that I was horrified when a so called rescue admitted to shocking a horse with a battery charger (which she later amended to fence charger) with a body score of 1 to get it up off the ground…
Wow.
I will say I have whipped a colicky horse to get them up. Better a whip welt than dead. Only did it once in my life, but I do think it saved that horse’s life.
She’s stupid. that Julie. Whadda wad!
Never use a Shock Collar on a horse! Neeee-v v v-er! The End!
OOOO one more thing… I can’t say it enough… It’s Noooot the horse, it’s the rider! or owner.
I really think you read my mind sometimes.
I know this isn’t really the place for this, but I need some advice. My mare (oh glorious mares) has a bad habit of attempting the murder of other mares. They antagonize her, and she retaliates, but she doesn’t quit. She goes for blood. She was doing better for a while, but now she’s back at it. She had fencing with hot wire, but this doesn’t stop her. Ideas of how to stop her? She’s in a large paddock, and there aren’t many options of moving horses around to have her NOT next to the mares. It’s a small barn, but big paddocks, nice arena and she’s treated like a queen. I just don’t know how to make it so she doesn’t try to kill the other horses. Ideas anyone?? http://www.wildponybeast.blogspot.com
Regumate. As long as it isn’t a bad idea with her EPM meds if she is still on them – you’d have to ask your vet.
I have never had to use a shock collar on any dog before…why a horse? There are far more humane things to use than a shock collar…and how is that considered natural?
Oh, Fugly! I found a petition that I wanted to share.
I came across this petition published by Nevzorov Haute Ecole and they are asking to ban equestrian sports. I went to their YouTube site and found some videos as to why they are requesting this. Their information deals with medical information, such as how the bit, when sawed in a horse’s mouth, causes extreme pain because the bit is hitting a major nerve (or so I’ve gathered). They state various other reasons but I’m not going into detail here. You can find that information on their website: http://www.nevzorovhauteecole.com/
I’m just curious as to what you guys think of it. I’m looking at bridles differently because of it but I’m also wondering what this will do for the welfare of horses if such a petition were to pass. I stand in neutral territory until I can get more information from both sides of it.
It’s not going to pass. He’s a wackjob. I blogged about him years ago. WACK.JOB.
I’d say so. Frpm their FAQ:
“[45] What does Alexander do, if not riding? What about Haute Ecole?
NHE is developing, new knowledge is coming, old knowledge is being rethought, values are being revalued. Now Alexander teaches the horses Latin. Details will be available very soon, when the new film is ready.”
Huh?
Thank you for making me snort Diet Rockstar on my keyboard!
*sigh*
*laughs!*
Wait… they are joking aren’t they? That wasn’t serious, was it?
Uh oh. o_o
You might want to have a vet give your mare a good exam. A friend’s mare started having aggression problems. She put up with it for a while then had her checked. An ultrasound revealed a large ovarian cyst. She had to be spayed to cure the problem.
Aggression in mares is so often “female problems” – that’s why Regumate, which suppresses the heat cycles, is helpful to so many. But you gave another good example.
OMG! That is so not natural horsemanship, I don’t care what they’re calling it. That’s just stupid. I’ve seen shock collars advertised for horses, but I’ve never heard them being called “natural.” They’re just another shortcut that people are trying to use that goes around actual training. And they’re further ruining the name of natural horsemanship.
Also, I work with a natural horsemaship trainer who is amazing. She does a lot of ground work with a horse because it’s just makes them easier to be around and better in the saddle. I was at a pleasure barn last year, and a cutting barn a few years ago and they just don’t teach ground manners at all! These horses are perfect in the saddle, but they just don’t seem to care if they run through their handler or can’t lunge.
Numbwits, all of them. Respect and cooperation both begin on the ground. Become the “go-to person” for when the horse is uncomfortable, lonely, confused, frightened, or just wants guidance. But, of course, that takes time and patience; two things that are becoming more and more scarce in society these days.
Ruthie
I also wanted to add this, in part of her answer she says ” But in my opinion, in certain circumstances, it is the most humane approach. I know of a horse who has now kicked and killed two horses by kicking them and breaking their legs.”
So my question is, after a horse did this ONCE why would you continue to turn it out with other horses? Fool me once, same on you, Fool me twice… I think everyone knows the rest, lol.
My yearling threw the Mother of All Temper Tantrums today, do I need to run out and buy a $400 shock collar for him???
I am such a BAD horse mommy- He was in the cross ties getting clipped, totally calm, then 45 minutes into it he decided he was done and wanted out of the ties, NOW. He proceeded to throw the World’s Biggest Tizzy Fit, complete with kicking out, violent pawing, a couple of rears, a few failed attempts at charging through the ties, nipping at the ties, bucking, etc. He literally worked himself into a lather. I stood safely back, watched his tantrum, and when he finally calmed back down, I proceeded grooming/clipping as if nothing had happened. I did have to abandon my clipping job, as my clippers were not happy going through sweaty fur, but I did make a point on doing just a little more, so he wouldn’t learn that tantrums make clippers go away. He was perfect for the rest of the day. I swear he felt sheepish.
But darn, I should have got a shock collar.
i see you mentioned regumate for moody mares. that is good stuff! my sons mare is on it has she has overy problems that make her very bitchy. we had just purchased her for my 9yr old son whos best friend a 36yr old gelding was nearing the end. she was perfect on the test ride they kept her with mares we bought her home and put her with geldings and within a week she was super bitch. she broke my round pen,took out a section of fence and took a stall door off the hinges. pinned my 3yr qh gelding against the barn and pee’d on him while he looked at me like mom help!. had a full vet work up done found her left ovary is enlarged.i really thought about taking her back but the people wouldent give us all the money back. at this point the vet suggested regumate and that stuff is great!. she was back to the calm sane happy horse in the test rides on it. funny thing is with this mare speaking of stupid trainers we had one lady trainer look at her and she advised me to sell her at the upcoming auction. she said you could feel an evil aura around her and see the evil in her eyes. it seems alot of people think she is nuts because she has the coolest blue eyes( her eyes are really cool they are blue with lighter blue streaks kinda reminds me of broken glass). i just thought it was funny how many people think that blue eyes means evil or crazy. this is a mare who can be ridden by children. the first horse my son can untack by himself. and stand stock still with a bear and 3 cubs crossing the road right in front of her( she earned alot of respect by me that day!) she is a wonderful trust worthy horse i am very thankfull for the regumate and i am sure she is too. we did check getting her spayed but the cost is so much and the risk of complications is so high. i personally know someone who’s mare died during the procedure so i would only do that in a last resort if the regumate quit working. its not cancerous or anything she is a older mare who was used for breeding. but her breeding days are over now that we own her she will never be bred again!
I’ve never heard of shock collars being called e-collars before, as far as I know e-collars are those stupid lamp-shade things dogs and cats have to wear after surgery to keep them away from their stitches. I’ve never heard of them being used on a horse, but then I’ve never heard of a freaking shock collar used on a horse either! Wouldn’t that make their fear and aggression issues worse? Since there’s NO WAY the ‘trainer’ would be able to catch the horse in the act every single time the punishment would only happen randomly. And humans being clumsy humans as they fumbled for the button means that the punishment might happen after the bad behavior is over and the horse is thinking about other things, so now they’ve been punished for doing something unrelated to the bad behavior. Plus now you’ve got to carry something else with you.
Dang, if I can see where this could go wrong, any horse trainer should as well. WTF!
umm, how is using a battery operated device deemed ‘natural’ *VBG*.
I am involved with a dog breed that paritcipates in the sport of Schutzhund, now there are many that would use E collars to get a dog to bite down etc, but excuse me, this is not proofing your dog, nor training your dog, it using an artificial stimulas to gain a desired effect and has ruined many a good dog
Any cowboy using E collars for training needs to go back to school and have any of their ‘training’ credentials removed from them IMO
Oh and as for Natural Hosemanship Trainer! A horse breeder thinks they are one just because they mate horses, a horse trainer can be exactly the same, anyone that uses such extreme training aids should be given a wide birth, after being hog tied and the device applied to one of their more ‘sensitive’ areas first *VBG*
After hearing a dog trainer describe an attempt to fix an aggressive dog using a shock collar that went very very wrong, I think I’ll stick to sending them to their rooms. The dog thought that the other dog was the cause of the shocks. The poor other dog got badly torn up. You have to really know what you’re doing when you use aversives to deal with a fear or aggression issue. Even if a horse doesn’t see the “aggressee” bite her, her attention was on the other horse when it happened.
*prepares to be flamed* I will say that I believe in some situations, a shock collar can be a useful tool. I have only seen one situation where it was really necessary.
We (being the trainer that I train with and I) had a really rotten-minded mare in training a few years ago. Please note that at this time, the mare was on Regumate, Mare Magic, and was being handled by three people (only one of them rode her) who all enforced basic ground manners consistently and in the same way, without excessive force. So basically what I’m saying is that this was a well trained mare who knew what was acceptable and what wasn’t, and had no hormonal reason to act this way.
Anyways, she came with us to the first show of the season. The owner was paying the trainer to haul the horse (as most of us do). The trainer has a 4 horse trailer with a tackroom and living quarters. Also, in the back “stall” of the trailer was an enclosed area for saddles:
http://www.pricestrailers.com/images/USED%20TRAILERS/1999%20Featherlite/saddleracks.gif
Not exactly the same, but it works for my purpose. All’s going grand the day we’re set to leave. The 4 horses are loaded in the trailer, everything’s packed, and we’re on our way out the door. The second we pulled out of the driveway and hit the road, the trailer jerked sideways so hard it almost went into the ditch. Followed by four more huge jerks that almost put the back of the trailer into the ditch. By this time, we’ve figured out that it’s a horse kicking. There was no where to turn around there, and backing down the road and back down the driveway wasn’t an option, so we figured that we just had to keep going, and hope the horse stopped. A mile down the road, the horse was kicking about once every five seconds, each time swinging the trailer towards the ditch, and we’d turned around. Long story short, the mare was in the back of the trailer, and had dented the side of the trailer out (which is incredibly hard to do) and had pushed on the wall of the saddle rack so hard that the “point” was facing into the saddle rack instead of into the stall. She got left at the barn for that show.
But she did need to handle being in the trailer, so we ended up borrowing a dog shock collar from someone. (This was a few weeks later). We put her in the stall one forward from the back, and put the shock collar around her neck, closed the door, and waited for the fireworks. Every time she’d kick, we’d give her a shock. Five shocks later, she stood perfectly for five minutes, so she was taken off the trailer and left alone. A few weeks later, we had to haul her again. She loaded right in with no hesitations, and didn’t kick one time the entire way.
I know some people will say that there were other things we could have tried first, but honestly, when used one time, used smart (meaning we didn’t just start shocking the crap out of her for no reason, we waited until she’d done something obviously very wrong), and used in a manner that she could understand (one kick = one shock), it was an effective method. It is also not one that I would use on every horse that kicks in the trailer. If I had something very high-strung, there is no way I would use a shock collar. It would kill itself trying to get away. But when used on something bullheaded and stubborn, honestly, it worked.
I will make a note of this to my trainer. She is phenomenal. She insists that all of her horses have exemplary ground manners, she is teaching me the NH way to get good behavior out of my yearling gelding by showing me how to act like the boss mare – something he clearly understands!
I will tell you that she uses an E-collar on her horse. He will kick and paw in the stall (it’s solely for attention) to the point that he’s gotten his shoes caught on the gate (all her stalls have metal stall guards inside the doors) or he’s hurt himself. She did try kick chains and he couldn’t care less. When she’s standing right there she’ll touch (not hit, touch) the front leg he’s NOT pawing with to make him put down his pawing foot. But when she’s not there but he can hear her in the barn he’s really obnoxious. I haven’t seen the e-collar on him in a while, so I’m assuming he learned something. This horse is a massive 18H with the mentality of a petulant five year old child (he’s 8 or 9 I believe). He’s in work six days a week and gets turned out just as often as everyone else and he’s all buddy buddy with the horse next to him.
She learned from Terry McClaire, who is the natural horsemanship clinician up our way. She does a great job, the woman has balls of steel and will get on ANYTHING. Other than using a flag instead of a whip with a plastic bag tied on it and one of those funky knotted halters she doesn’t go for gadgets. She teaches the horse to respect the space of their handler like they would respect the space of the boss horse out in the paddock is in a nutshell what she does. I don’t know much about the under saddle part of it, I just know she’s good at what she does without whips and spurs when she gets on.
You know how we always say “if you can’t afford to feed the horse, you can’t afford the horse”, or “if you can’t afford the vet care, you can’t afford the horse”? Well, in my opinion, if you can’t afford to cross-fence some paddocks to do individual turnout for the aggressive horses, then you can’t afford the horses!
As far as shock collars go, I’ve only had one [appauling] experience with them. My family had bought a very green horse who turned out to have some major anxiety issues and he really was not suitable for them. They gave the horse to a trainer who appeared to be a better match for this horse. The trainer told us he had a lesson horse who was going to be retired in the next few years, so he’d put a few years of solid training on our horse and the use him to replace his lesson horse. A few months later, I saw the horse being advertised in the local paper (and made to sound kid safe- this horse was nuts! not mean, but very unpredictable), so of course I notified my family and they contacted the trainer. The trainer offered to give the horse back to my family. When he trailered him back over, he said he’d taken the horse off of the preventative ulcer meds because he didn’t think he needed them, and oh, by the way, he was in the middle of curing the horse from cribbing with a shock collar. What??? This horse was a hard core cribber due to his severe anxiety and you’re SHOCKING him?? Gee, I never knew THAT’S what you do to sooth anxiety- shock ‘em in the neck! We felt so terrible for the horse. Needless to say, we did not continue the shock training as suggested to us by the “trainer”.
OT and may get moderated out but I though it was worth a try. I’m trying to collect data on the treatment of chronic lameness pathologies. If anyone has/has had a horse with navicular, ringbone, sidebone, arthritis, laminitis or chronic (long term) tendon or ligament issues or even a long term recurring lameness which has been impossible to diagnose I would be really grateful of they could fill in a questionaire for me. I would be happy to share the results with anyone who participated but it will take a while for me to get the data collected and sorted.
Anyone who would be prepared to take part please email me: lilly-sian.hill@hotmail.com
You have mail! Very timely for me, and I’d love to see your results when the time comes.
Those shock collars have been around for a while, a Parelli-ite at my barn used one years ago on his cribber. (BTW-He paid $300 for it too). He put it on poor P.J., waited for him to crib and zapped him. Horse went crazy, damn near tore down the stall and skinned himself up pretty bad. It took almost an hour to get it off the poor horse. He went back to the cribbing collar after that. This is the same guy that watched some NH video (don’t know who’s) and started tying his mare’s legs, one at a time, to a rope ran through the hay loft and would pull her feet up to “stretch her legs”. Guy was a crazy fool. And God forbid if you needed to use the round pen if he was there!
I’ve been reading this blog for some time now. I absolutely love it, however I feel like this post is unjust. There are all forms of Horsemanship training that are abusive in the wrong hands. You would think common sense would tell you that using an electric shock collar on your horse is not training, but cruel and unjust to the horse. I personally do not know of any Natural Horsemanship people that use this method. Yet you unjustly categorize natural horsemanship as being horrible, because of this one dumb ass trainer . Would you do that if it were a dressage trainer or an Event Trainer? No you would just point out the dumb ass that was using this method of training.
I’ve had great experiences with using natural horsemanship as a training method. I’ve also seen Natural horsemanship abused. Just as I have seen other training methods abused. It all really boils down to knowing your horse. I think it’s great that this site points out the losers that are in the horse world, but I don’t feel it’s just to label Natural Horsemanship as a bad training method, just because of jack asses that are using it in-correctly.
No, I categorize Natural Horsemanship as being a scam because of the dozens of similarly stupid pieces of advice I’ve blogged about here. Shall we start with feeding carrots to a biter or move right on to you don’t need a helmet if your horse is Parelli trained?
I’ve never heard of feeding a carrot to a biter? People need to research the training methods they are going to follow, before jumping in with both feet. I don’t think I have ever seen that in any of the Natural Horsemanship people I follow. As for Parelli…I have never heard them promote that you don’t have to wear a helmet if you use their training method. They leave that choice up to the rider. Linda Parelli chooses not to use a helmet, but I’ve never heard her tell anyone else not to. What about people in higher levels of dressage? They wear top hats. Does that mean they are telling other people not to wear helmets when riding?
Parelli went further than that. They actually answered a question about helmet use by saying that if your horse is trained (implying their methods) then they are safe and that’s better than wearing a helmet.
Which as we all know is bullshit. Good luck using ANY training method to make a horse 100% predictable. Even if they don’t misbehave, they can trip and fall. Been there, done that, fractured my hip.
I don’t wear a helmet either, except to jump, but I’m not ABOUT to tell anybody that is the safe choice. It’s a personal assumption of risk that I would NOT recommend.
We agree on that. No horse is predictable and accidents can happen anytime.
I don’t wear a helmet when I’m just riding around either and I know the risks. If what you say about Parelli is true shame on them. (I have never heard it though.) I for one would not be stupid enough not to wear a helmet just because someone said so. I’m not the type to just “do” anything someone says just because they say so. 
If my conscience says …I don’t feel good about this. That is usually a good indication that this isn’t going to go well.
Ugh, shock collars… brings up an unpleasant memory of mine (sorry, kind of long, but I have to get it off my chest as it stills bothers me to this day):
Years ago, I worked for a boarding/training facility that happened to briefly house some farm animals (plus a few giraffes and a buffalo) that were being used for a big movie filming locally (LOTS of animals in that movie). Included in this list were 2 horses who had obviously been doing the movie thing for a long time. One day, while my co-worker and I were watering the indoor arena, the horse handler was just outside working with the 2 horses. Nothing out of the ordinary, I thought, until I saw that they began freaking out without what seemed to be any warning or reason. My first thought was that the pen they were working in was bordered by a stone wall – an unfriendly barrier to a freaked out horse – and was worried that they would injure themselves. I figured they had found a bee’s nest. I alerted my co-worker and we began to go over to the horses until we saw the handler. He was standing just below the horizon (the pen was on a hill that sloped downward from where we were) not doing anything, just watching them. Realizing this may have been part of the training, we did not want to interfere and figured he had the situation under control. About that time, the horses calmed down. Curious, we watched from the shadows inside the arena. The trainer talked to the horses, they turned around, one began walking towards him, and all of a sudden both started freaking out again. I had no clue what was going on, but knew he was doing something to them. My co-worker said that he was using shock collars on them, and sure enough, I looked closer and saw the thin collars around their necks. As I was still fairly “fresh” to the horse scene, this really really upset me. I’d never seen nor heard of anyone using shock collars on horses. Unfortunately, I felt I was powerless as these were big movie people. Who was I to stand up for the horses?
Well, later that evening, still extremely bothered by what I saw, I logged onto a forum I used to frequent and wrote in detail about the situation. I just had to get it off my chest. I did not mention the barn name, but I did mention the movie name. Since the movie was still in early stages of filming, there was almost no information about it online, so when a woman from the animal rights group that oversees care of movie animals did an online search using the movie title, my post popped up. This ignited a serious turn of events for the movie. From what I heard, she took my detailed post to the top, and the production of the movie stopped. The next day, my boss confronted me in what was a very humiliating moment for me… I did not want to claim ownership of the post, but I did. She explained why what I had done was wrong – not that I was bothered by the situation, but that my actions were not smart. I should’ve talked to her or the handler about it. She explained that was a big part of training movie horses and that he knew what he was doing.
I ended up offering a serious apology to the handler who was actually very nice considering the situation. He soon packed up his horses though and took them to another barn. It was chalked up to a big misunderstanding, but I’m glad he came under heavy scrutiny. I still stand by my original feeling of shock collar use – it’s just plain wrong. It’s so incredibly bothersome to watch it being used on an animal with such visible emotions.
You did the right thing. Now, of course, I want to know which movie and $20 says My Friend Flicka, because God knows when two horses die filming, someone fucked up.
(I understand if you can’t say which movie)
So… can I have that $20? Lol, it was not My Friend Flicka (I doubt that movie had giraffes in it…). I would’ve been horrified if I found out those 2 horses that were at my barn died during filming. One was older, slightly sway-backed, and so sweet, but I will always wonder what happened to his face – it was covered in scars. He had those old-horse eyes that are so expressive. I’d adopt him in a heartbeat if they ever retire him. If my memory serves me correctly, he was a bright bay with socks and a stripe, the other was dark bay, minimal white if any.
Not to put myself under fire again, I’ll just say that the movie rhymes with Devan Balmighty
On another note, I stumbled across Jessica Jahiel’s site when I got my OTTB. I also really like her advice.
Really. See, ya learn something new every day.
What happened to the humane officer on set thing? I would think an A list movie like that would have one. Did THEY know about the shock collars?
Yes, that particular film was monitored: http://www.ahafilm.info/movies/mr.phtml?fid=7821
Not sure if they observe off set training or not though. It’s possible that the trainer lied about training methods.
Here’s stuff about what happened on the set of Flicka: http://www.americanhumane.org/faqs.html#flicka
I’m guessing they lied, because as I was poking around the site and looking at other movies (Lord of the Rings, of course), I found this: http://www.ahafilm.info/movies/moviereviews.phtml?fid=7471
They admit to the use of shock collars about halfway down the page. The “humaneness” was labeled “questionable” as a result. Interesting.
See, you really do learn something new every day. I have been in horses for almost 35 years now and I had NEVER, NOT ONCE heard of anyone using a shock collar on a horse before reading the Goodnight column.
Now I am hearing about it all over. I am hearing that a trainer who I’d recognize if I saw him at shows gets drunk and shocks them for fun. Then I hear that halter horse people have stood horses in water and shocked them. WTF.
Seriously, folks, if you see this stuff, would you please get some discreet video? I don’t know how we make it stop unless they get outed and outed hard, with video to prove it. What is WRONG with people???
I worked at this barn 6 days a week (you know how that goes – pre-dawn to post-dusk), including the few month-long period during which the movie animals were housed there. Not ONCE was there ever any mention of a humane officer coming or having been there (I am certain that my boss would’ve said something), nor did I ever see anyone I didn’t recognize come in. The main barn area is fairly small and is where we kept mostly to while doing chores, and most of the movie animals were in sight or around the corner. It is possible that someone watched from the road, but all roads visible from our stable are not that far and we would’ve seen or heard their vehicles. So my deduction is that no one watched the “off set” training at our barn.
As sad as the shock collar incident was, I must say that all these animals were otherwise properly taken care of – great weight, great shape, clean and relatively happy. It was an interesting experience.
Mike Kevel is the best TV trainer I have seen deal with these issues, he is on RFDTV. but really people should just finda a damn real life trainer with a barn and a training program and just start listening to him or her.
You Tube Stephanie Hanson Horses
Lots of videos from a problem horse class in Northern Cali. Might actually help people, who think it’s a good idea to be best buddies with their horses instead of gaining some good old fashion mutual respect.
FYI although Stephanie try to refrain from talking bad about any training methods, the carrot sticks and Parelli leads belong to the students, who own the horses.
Did I seriously read that?!?!? A shock Collar? on a horse? Really?! This is the worst idea I have ever heard! First, the horse is a fight or flight PREY animal. The fact of being shocked could trigger violent reactions, or simply get them running through fences. I only the person with the problem horse would remember to move the mare’s feet by imposing herself in the mare’s space, I think the problem would be more than solved (it might even solve other little issues).
I have bought a 2 year old, untrained mare and completely trained her myself. I am no professional trainer, but I have trained about 14 horses to ground work and saddle work (basics), they are respectable horses today, given they are worked enough to keep it up! My horse is easily distracted and I bring her focus back on me by either, pushing or moving her feet or simply saying her name in a growling voice. That growling voice will pretty much stop her from any behaviour that I don’t want her to do… like pawing the ground, a simple “hey, No!” in a calm voice will make her stop, I don’t need to touch her, but I do if she doesn’t listen the first time… and I only tap, tap, tap her leg (the one that is pawing) with one finger, usually she will stop at phase one (voice command). I can walk around the pasture with a bucket of oats and none of my horses will cross the line… yes, they will follow, but they will not crowd my space and if I feel that they are too close for me, I can simply turn, say “whoa” and go on. They will stop on command.
This woman would need to assess when her mare is the most aggressive (when they are in the pasture, or anytime). Horses are like people, sometimes, they just don’t like the other horse. If it’s a jalousy thing, just show her that YOU are the boss by making her move, chasing her off of the gelding and keeping her back. You can also establish dominance by making your horse move off of their food. Everytime that your horse settles to eat, you just get in there and “push” her off, take her spot for a few minutes, then make her move from where she has settled again. Soon, you will be able to move her in the pasture, without much effort at all. I can ground drive my Dandy without a halter or lead, from behind her and basically make her go wherever I want, without her running off and without me having to run after her. If I ever charge at one of my horses, it’s because they did something REALLY bad and they are often so freaking surprised that they are mostly hurt that I lunged at them, not because they were yelled at.
You need to constantly work with your horse on the ground, young horses will test you for your leadership almost everyday, go see them, pet them and make sure they trust you and you trust them… that can only be achieved by a clear relationship between the leader and follower… if you love your life… then your horse should be the follower!
I once boarded at a small facility where the owner/trainer managed to find a sound activated shock collar. This control freak despised cribbing horses so badly he decided to try it on his own horse. Without ever thinking the horse might whinny, call out to others, sneeze, or the horse next to it might set it off, he thought it was a great idea and strapped it on. Fortunately for the horse it never went off. I figured it was junk. The BO/trainer/control freak was pissed that he wasted his money. That’s about the time I decided I’d had enough of his anger issues. If he’ll do this to his own horse, who’s to say he won’t do something like this to others.
I pulled out of that codependent barn shortly after that. I don’t deal well with bully type control freaks. He now has his barn full of codependents happily jumping to his orders. This is a person heavily involved with the pony club. The only thing I regret is not taking a picture of the incident for the pony club web site.
You know I adopted an OTTB who had had an electric probe used on him to make him run faster. Let me tell you how much fun that was to deal with. One day I was trying to take his blanket off and the static gave us both a shock and he BOLTED. Took off running for the hills. Thank god he stopped at the fence line. It took almost a week for him to let me put his blanket back on. There is just no need to EVER use that kind of device on a horse. And to pedal that solution to a novice is reprehensible. I think that what many NH people forget is that training a horse takes TIME, and lots of it. These quick fixes are just asking for trouble in the long run.
“I think that what many NH people forget is that training a horse takes TIME, and lots of it. These quick fixes are just asking for trouble in the long run.”
That’s exactly it. It takes time and knowledge. And for those of you who say, but how do I get the knowledge, the answer is lessons. Years and YEARS of lessons. Yes, many of us took YEARS of lessons before owning a horse. I rode for nine years before I owned my own horse. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING. It is a good thing and it allowed me to ride many DIFFERENT horses which is what MAKES you a better rider.
Someone who only rides/works with their own horse will NEVER be as good as a person of equal talent who rides/works with 100 of them. I’d argue that to anybody.
Too funny-the static thing can really rock an OTTTB (likely any horse, but…..). Since I do not spend$$$ on gadgets, I spend it on static guard for blankets (easy fix)! Is it not ironic that the NH trainers hawk the most gadgets???? Gadgets are NOT NATURAL.
I have had personal run ins with Ms Goodnight thru another organization affiliation and they have not been pretty. That she has gotten this far with her expo programs etc befuddles me. I worked with a 17.2 TB breeding stallion for 3 years, I’m 5’2, the owner 6’2, and the best way to both of us to handle him was verbal intimidation. Physical punishment never fazed him but he’d cower like a kitten if you really yelled/ growled at him. I am also a professional instructor and feel that folks have forgotten the voice is a natural aid (hands, legs, seat/weight, voice). I encourage a lot of verbal praise so the horse can associate that with the desired behavior, and a “verbal spur” when things go wrong. Horses have a guilty conscience and if you growl/ verbally correct in a timely manner the bad behavior tends to dissipate. I love the “Hybrid Horsemanship” videos on youtube but wouldn’t try or advocate the average person to use his methods. (Nor would Endo) He is working with last chance TBs in overcrowded Japanese racing stables and if he can’t fix them with his extreme methods they are quickly horsey sushi. Super fun to watch though
I am also a huge fan of verbal intimidation. I am 5’3 and trust me, if I growl, they know they are doing a Bad Thing. Best of all, the growl came pre-installed as original equipment on my body and has not cost me a dime
Maybe we should start doing clinics on how to talk to a horse and use the tone of your voice to communicate with them?
I’m one of those idiots who babytalks to my horse almost insessantly. I’m sure other people think it’s obnoxious and silly, but when I angriliy shout “HEY!” at my horse, it’s immediately clear to him that he’s in trouble. I using my voice because it works when I’m not close enough to whack him or if he’s not on a lead rope.
He seems to like the babytalk too, because I can call him in all the way from across the field. I’ve never used cookies or grain to catch him.
Same here. Actually I am contagious…the entire barn now babytalks to the VLC. And yes, given the comparison, he KNOWS when he is trouble if we growl at him!
I too am a “growler.” I’m 5’7″ but I sound 9’3″ ;o) A well timed “Q-U-I-T” or “B-A-A-H!” is all it takes, especially if you turn and LOOK the horse in the eye as you deliver that message.
I’ve had my OTTB stop unwanted behaviors when I do the “B-A-A-H!” thing SOFTLY and more like “Ba-ba-ba-bah” than a growl. My guy used to panic because he thought he’d have to do something he couldn’t do and, because he couldn’t do it, he’d get punished — makes me wonder about cattle prods and all KINDS of horrid things happening to him on the track because he’s such a biddable horse if you take time to train him in the new thing).
Anyway, tone of voice works wonderfully on horses and dogs. My entire four-legged family understands “tone.” ;o)
OT But I can’t find anywhere to email this?
“Horse Rescue/lessons” Scary…!
Lessons – $20 (Cottonwood)
http://www.harmonyhaven.wordpress.com/
Yieks
I’ll put on my flame suit and stand up for Julie Goodnight. Generally she is a really good trainer – very common sense and practical. I have seen her twice at Equine Affaire and was impressed with her sound approach to horses and their riders. She does a really good job of coaching people riding with her. I did not see any evidence then of her using new age-y spiritual techniques – for example, JG worked with an owner and her horse where the horse really had the owner’s number – every time she tried to canter the horse bucked and generally acted up. JG got on and did not hesitate to thump the horse a good one when it tried to buck – nothing aggressive, just assertive and no-nonsense. No evidence of any kind of abuse any time I’ve seen her.
I will say this – I watch her all the time on RFD-TV. Her older shows are usually very good. I’ve started to wonder about her more recent shows – lots of product placement for her stuff and those bits that they hawk on RFD-TV. Could it be that there’s a lot of pressure on her to be more like the other commercial wing nuts? I would be really disappointed in her if she caved to this pressure – I don’t think she’s really like that IRL.
I will admit that the answer to this particular question is quite problematic. From the responses so far, I can see that *some* people have used shock collars effectively. Fine and dandy. I would be very concerned that your local CL posting, fugly breeding, byb could really do a good job with one. I doubt that *I* could. So it was a very ill-considered response.
Hate to see her featured in a bad light because I do generally like her.
I agree with this. I rode on her show last June (my mare & I had an episode about headset/lead changes). I didn’t know much about her when I filled out the application — frankly I did not expect to be picked (I didn’t even know they were taping in my area) and I had only heard of her through a barn friend. When I was picked, I read the stuff on her website and watched a couple of clips on Youtube. (I don’t get RFD). She seemed then to be a more sensible NH practitioner than many others, and I saw being on the show as a fun two-day experience for me and my mare, regardless of how it went.
They were all very kind to me and the experience was positive. I didn’t get a ton of interaction time with Julie but I did get to watch her work with a real stinker, a big old gelding who had been injured a few years earlier and who was continuing to act like a major jerk to his teenage owner/rider (who was a wonderful rider and had learned to ride him as best as she could through bucks/rears/tantrums). Julie round-penned him until he stopped being a brat, and at the end of their two day session Clare (the rider) was riding him without a single tantrum. Her mom was just thrilled; Clare was riding him through flying lead changes and her mom said she hadn’t been able to do them with him for five years.
It was clear to me, working with her, that Julie’s real love is being a clinician — NOT having her own show. She mentioned that she hated not having much time to work with riders (most of my real work was with a very good training assistant) and hated all the little things she had to do, like filming the short tips and the commercials. I agree that it seems she’s being pushed in a more product-driven direction, which is a shame.
I don’t follow her on facebook anymore for the above reason — because she seems to be a product more than a person. And I agree that this shock collar thing is terrible advice. Very disappointing to see it.
As a behaviorist in training (graduate student
) I thought I would weigh in on the use of shock collars.
1)It is a form of punishment (duh right?) Punishment should only be administered when the trainer can be present to correct the behavior 100% of the time. The absence of punishment becomes a green light for the behavior to occur. Obviously she is not going to follow the horses around all day shocking the mare every time she agresses. The horse will most likely learn quickly when she can beat up on the gelding and when she can’t.
2) Shocking a horse is extreme. So is punishment in general! I could see using a shock collar if you had an extremely aggressive horse (like that arab a couple of posts ago) if you have tried everything else and were thinking of euthanasia. It should be administered by a professional behaviorist not a noob.
3)Punishment usually has side affects whether that be aggression (that would be self defeating huh?) or sneaking, or fear… not things I would want to ellicit in a riding/companion animal!
Good comments. Professionally speaking, I have seen 3 horses that were over the top aggressive toward humans that I would say were potential candidates for shock collars (none were ever used as far as I know). All were Standardbred mares. All could easily have killed a person. One was handled at a top racing stable only by extremely cautious professionals. She was valuable or she would have been euthanized. One was a cull being used as a recip for QH ETs, the behavior developed after she foaled, the foal was removed, and I believe the mare was euthanized. The other was lost to followup. IMO this should be a last resort before euthanasia. I also believe the limitations in using this to change horse behavior are as you point out-the ability to be present 100% of the time when it occurs. Consistency is essential in training and conditioning horses.
The real issue I have with this is that the behavior I saw described is just typical alpha mare behavior, and there are several effective ways to deal with the issue, that do not require shocking the horse. If the owner is not capable of dealing with the behavior (handling horses in a herd/pasture situation) then one must deal with the owner’s issues too!!!
He/she must learn how to communicate and discipline effectively. I deal with a Mustang alpha mare daily. She knows better than to try to move or enter my space. BUT she was TAUGHT that this was off limits and that she must give her space to me. Time, reinforcement and teaching are necessary (presumably shocking them is easier). Ugh!
So here is what I was just thinking about in terms of my own training philosophy:
As they say, Keep It Simple, Stupid!
Horses are NOT brilliant nor complicated animals.
If you want a horse to stand, ASK IT TO STAND. Don’t chase it in a damn circle and hope that it gets sick of that and stands. Ask it to stand using the same command every time (Whoa/Ho being standard), punish when it doesn’t (that punishment may be as simple as a growl or a step forward – using your body language to intimidate, or if the horse ignores those mild tactics, a pop on the chest from a crop), reward when it does.
If you want a horse to go into a trailer (or a wash stall, or a set of stocks, whatever), and he doesn’t want to, apply pressure from BEHIND! Horses move away from pressure. Just like you do if someone walks by and shoves you. I have seen more ridiculous tapping on the horse’s back, next to the horse, circling the horse, blah blah…JUST STOP. Put a butt rope on it under the tail, between the hocks and the tail, and a person on both sides of the rope. You stand in the trailer, out of the horse’s way. You do not pull on the rope, you only apply enough pressure to keep the head straight. If you pull, the horse will pull BACK. You want to have a giving hand on the rope just as if it were a rein. You let the people with the butt rope saw it back and forth, creating annoying friction that the horse will want to move away from. When the horse gets in the trailer, he gets to bury his nose in his hay or you feed cookies and the pressure is relieved. This is the method people have been using for 50 years and it DOES work. The only reason people EVER thought a “better way” was needed was numb-nuts who HAUL on the horse’s face or LIP CHAIN the horse (again – horses move AWAY from pain! The pressure needs to be on the BUTT, not the FACE) or do REALLY stupid things like TYING the horse to some part of the trailer and trying to winch him in. THAT is what causes flipping over backwards. Not people who know what they are doing with a butt rope. And no, just because you need the butt rope once doesn’t mean you’ll always need it. Most horses figure out that the trailer isn’t so bad and start going in just fine (assuming you don’t drive like a lunatic – the other cause of trailer loading problems that I have never seen anyone in NH address – again, god FORBID you blame the client with the $$$!)
If you have a horse who is throwing a fit about anything, he probably (a) does not work hard enough and/or (b) is eating too much high energy food and/or (c) is not getting enough turnout. Usually a combination of the three! I have been around polo ponies for thirty years and cannot recall, except for learning to tie which is often an issue with OTTB’s, a horse “throwing a temper tantrum” as some of you describe. You know why? They’re TIRED. Try taking your tantrum throwing horse out and long trot for 15 or 20 minutes (that’s a posting trot, for you western folks, and yes, you can do it in a western saddle). I will bet you have FAR less tantrums after that. Whatever the horse is having issues with, baths, trailer loading, etc. try working on it AFTER you work the horse and you might be amazed at what you can accomplish. Fresh horses are more reactive and more likely to misbehave and trying to train them is often frustrating for all involved.
Again, all of this is very traditional training which has been used for centuries. There was nothing wrong with it. It was not abusive. NH is not a better way. The way many people implement it, it is a much worse way. There may be some NH techniques that are valuable, but honestly I can’t point to one, except for traditional training techniques that NH likes to take credit for. Merely being non-abusive is NOT “natural horsemanship.” It is quality traditional horsemanship, which has existed for hundreds of years!
Amen, girl. Maybe a blog on all the novices who buy an ustarted/unhandled horse when then fancy themselves a “trainer” after attending a “colt-starting” clinic. I’m surprised people haven’t gotten killed at those. It’s not possible to develop the feel and timing needed to train any animal from a weekend clinic or $100 DVD set. Go get some lessons from a real trainer that has done something more than chase a horse around a round-pen. All these NH “guru’s” get on my last ever-lovin nerve.
I agree with most of what you say here, but the trailering method you describe (and I think I’ve seen it on Mugwump’s blog) did not work for our Paso Fino mare. (We have a two-horse straight load trailer, and she was used to slant load.)
We sawed the rope under her tail for a good 20 minutes, with no results. We had to stop because we were starting to give her rope burns. She preferred the rope burns to stepping in the scary trailer. She would walk up close enough to lean her front legs against the trailer, but she would not take a step up. We tried several things to put pressure at her back end, but nothing would get her to even place one foot in the trailer.
What finally worked was lunging her, letting her rest occaisionally when she stood quietly near the trailer. If she backed away from the trailer, we sent her out and lunged her some more. Eventually she associated the trailer with rest, and we were able to get her to step in. We let her rest for as long as she wanted in the trailer, but she would only stand there a few seconds before getting scared again and backing out. More lunging ensued. (Do you have any idea what it takes to wear out a Paso? LOL) Finally, she was standing quietly in the trailer (untied, no butt bar), resting rather peacefully, although she was still nervous. The whole ordeal took almost 5 hours.
A few times after that, we’d have to lunge her for 5-10 minutes before she’d load. Now she loads perfectly, but sometimes tries to fly out the back of the trailer when we go to unload her.
Anyway, IDK if it was because she’s a very hot horse or because we were doing something incorrectly, but the rope method just did not work for us. I see a pattern in this mare though, you have to make the wrong thing very, VERY hard or she won’t even consider doing the right thing because it is so scary to her.
Yeah, and it’s hard for me to say without having watched your mare not load. I suspect yours is genuinely scared. She may have had a bad experience, like bumping her poll jumping in. She may have been driven by a terrible driver, or been in an accident.
The unloading like a rocket ship can be a real problem too. Your mare needs to be happier about being in there – you might want to feed her some dinners in there, just for practice, in the parking lot (hitched up – never put a horse in a trailer that isn’t hitched to a truck, it can roll). Let her start thinking of a trailer as a place food lives. Maybe even make it special food, like a yummy warm mush. I’m all for the sweet approach when it appears the horse is truly scared and yours does sound scared to me. Of course, I’m also all for slamming the door and making them stay in or a while once you get them in. I think allowing them to get back out plants the idea in their head that this is an option but it’s another thing the NH-ers do all the time. I’d slam the door and then give her plenty of food as a reward. I’d also practice it with another horse in the trailer first, so she doesn’t see the trailer as a lonely, scary and isolated place.
We had Zorro in the trailer a few times during the whole ordeal. God bless him, he got on and off with no problems several times and even stood quietly in the trailer for almost an hour. His presence seemed to have no effect on the mare. (They were born on the same day on the same ranch and have been together their whole lives. Abosolutely BFFs!)
Often when we trailer them, we have hay or cookies waiting for them on the shelf thing in the front. Zorro is very much food motivated, but Amiga (the mare) would maybe starve to death than face her fears. She is a very sweet horse and wonderful under saddle, but she has some ridiculous fear issues.
For what it’s worth, here’s what we’re doing about the flying off the trailer issue. One person switches her from the trailer tie to a long lead rope coming out the front window. That person DOES NOT pull at all, they are just there so we have her under control once she comes off. Anyway, we open the back door, but not the butt bar, and if she presses against the butt bar or starts rocking we tap her on the but with the a stick. Usually one tap is all it takes to get her all the way forward in the trailor. Once she’s quiet and waiting, we jiggle the butt bar to make the sound as if we opened it. If she backs up into the butt bar again, she gets tapped again. Once she’s quiet, we open the butt bar, tapping again if she moves back at all. Once she’s quiet, the person on the lead rope asks her to back. And that’s it.
She still backs out fairly quickly, but it’s definitely not a rocket. And we make her wait until we ask for a back EVERY TIME. She only recently started the bad behavior, so we’re not 100% done correcting her, but we’re making progress.
And yes, the trainer we’ve been working with is an NHer (Clinton Anderson, not Parelli) but she’s never asked us to do anything crazy and we definitely ride every lesson
Sounds like a very sensible way to deal with it. I think you’re on track to getting the issue resolved!
My personal theory is that a lot of the “good” NH’ers aren’t really using NH. They’re identifying as NH simply because they don’t beat on horses or use a lot of gadgets like draw reins. I could be wrong, it’s just a theory.
Just something I was marinating on reading about your mare flying out of the trailer… Every time she does that, its self-rewarding. As in, she wants nothing more than to get out, and by getting out fast, she wins. Sounds like youre dealing with it well, but just trying to reframe it for you.
Not sure how big your trailer is or how much you can reward her from the front (via a window or the other slot?), but I would try to keep her in there with treats–if she’ll even take them–and reward each slow step backwards. Reward the slow exit. Once she’s out, NO reward. Just being out in itself is a “life reward”, as opposed to treats…
Also, I’d load her and unload her every single day until she “gets it”. I know that’s a lot, but I;d be willing to guess 95% of loading problems have to do with the fact that the horses’ only association with trailering are when everyone is in a hurry and its a do-or-die scenario… that leads to the knock down drag out five hour epic.
Just my rambling two cents.
Also RE the shock collar—the only time I would EVER use a shock collar (and I would use a vibrating version only) would be in a life-or-death situation for the animal. Goldenpony makes a great point about it being useless as it will only be administered when the person is present.
Management—ie. in this case separating the mare from the others—is the best policy 90% of the time.
This mare is insane, I actually really did have to train her to eat treats. When you offered her one, she used to take it out of your hand/bucket/whatever and toss it away. She wouldn’t actually EAT the thing. Not much of a reward. Then we started adding 2-3 treats to her grain each day so she either had to eat them or eat around them. It took a few feedings, but she decided it was easier (and OMG yummy!) to just eat the treats. She was SOOO PISSED the first time she had treats in her feed. Pacing, stomping in the stall, didn’t even eat her grain for over an hour. She is so weird.
Anyway, we trailer them both to go to weekly riding lessons (sometimes twice a week) so it is a routine thing for them. We usually start loading at least 30 minutes before we are due for our lesson (only a 5 min drive) and then just hang out at the trainer’s barn if we’re early. Any time she comes off the trailer too quickly, we immediately load her again.
And oooh man, we did go through that phase where we loaded every day. As soon as each horse loaded and unloaded without drama, they were done for the day. No other work for them. It was SO AWESOME to see the time it took decrease day by day… 3 hours on Day 1, 2 hours on day 2, 45 minutes on Day 3, 30 minutes on Day 4… etc. Of course a horse might have the occasional day where they acted like they had never even SEEN a trailer before and suddenly Day 11 would take 3 hours again. Oh well, you just have to work through it or else they’ll learn they can get out of it by being difficult.
We’re trailering to go to a lesson tomorrow, so I’ll keep all of this in mind and hopefully we won’t have any drama…
OK you win. Your mare is weird.
Nah, I just think your mare has been owned by weird people before you and they weirded her out. She’ll get better!
I agree. keeping it simple is one key to effective training. Another key is being consistent. If you are consistent and your timing is good then your training will work. There are a thousand and one means to an end and everyone is going to have preferences to one way or another. I mean look at all the disciplines we have in the equestrian world. They all have problems. To me natural, traditional, etc… it is all the same.
Some trainers are good. Some trainers are bad. Some people are cruel and some are not. The terms of natural or traditional mean nothing to me anymore. The problem these days is people treat training like a religion and not a science. Anytime you have people following a personality like the Parelli’s blindly doing and buying everything they say you are going to have problems. That is not education it is indoctrination.
Oh Lord. I should not comment on this because I cannot stand Julie Goodnight. Not because of any of her techniques, mind you, it’s just one of those “girl things” – I don’t know why, I just don’t like her.
But really? This is why it should be mandatory to have lessons if you are an adult wanting to buy a horse for the first time. Because if you are either a) clueless enough to ask that question or b) dumb enough to take a NH clinicians word as God without question then you really aren’t ready to own a horse. A shock collar? The poor mare is either going to learn to be aggressive towards humans real fast or become a nervous wreck.
I gotta admit that I do use a “gadget” myself. It’s called a crop. Keeps the pushy 3 year old out of my space with just a small swish of the wrist. There’s no hitting, lunging, or games required, but it’s a gadget none-the-less. :-\
Check out today’s Dogster blog – today a SHOCK LEASH hit the market.
You know what – the next “revolution” is not going to be Tea Party-driven. It’s gonna be animals vs. humans, and rightly so.
Seriously. If you get bit using that kind of crap, you deserve it.
When is Animal Control going to figure it out? NEGLECT is not just about the horse’s WEIGHT! And when the LAW says the owner of the horse is required to provide shelter, that’s what it means! Not, “well, the weather is getting better… so let’s not worry about that shelter issue”…..WTF??!! Darlene Wilson has around fifteen neglected horses on her place with NO SHELTER! (not counting the ones suffering in the disgusting stalls inside the barn) And, aparently has Pierce County Animal Control’s (PCAC) blessing. PCAC, it’s the LAW!
http://www.dispatchnews.com/main.asp?SectionID=6&SubSectionID=6&ArticleID=2542&TM=42056.51
http://auctionhorses.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=inneed&action=display&thread=1274
I know, I know…I was glad to see the news story, though!
What I’m hearing from most responses here is that a shock collar can be a useful tool, in the hands of a very experienced trainer, in an extreme situation where other options have been tried and failed. And there are very few situations where it’s appropriate for a dog, and even fewer where it’s appropriate for a horse. Does that sum it up about right?
Here’s a situation where I think a dog trainer used a shock collar appropriately: http://sugarmtnfarm.com/blog/2006/03/killer-kita-training-untrainable.html
The short version is that he took back one of his young livestock guardian dogs from a situation where she’d been chained and neglected. She couldn’t focus, and would attack livestock or bolt for the horizon at every opportunity. She wanted to please, but also couldn’t resist distractions, and would turn off her ears and brain when she got going. After a year and a half of work and much debate, he resorted to a shock collar. He tested it on himself (brave man!) to make sure it was no worse than their electric fences. When she went into hunting mode or got sufficiently excited, his voice wasn’t enough to get through to her, but a mild shock combined with a yelled ‘NO!’ worked very well. The collar also had a ‘vibrate’ function much like a cell phone that he used as a warning step. He shocked the dog a grand total of five times, she stopped her ‘brain turn off’ trick and was fully trained within a few months. She’s now living the good life as a free-roaming livestock guardian dog and a high ranking member of the pack.
This seems like a great example of using shock collars as a last resort. He tried for 1.5 Years! Not a week, not a day. He tried everything he could think of.
Too many people give up after a week or two. Animals are like people. Some get it right away. Others need to be told over and over and over again. Some need to have a punishment to start taking things slowly. I don’t like shock collars in general, but there are a few exceptions. All rules have an exception.
My grandpa has a german shorthair dog, very active. He doesn’t let her out to exercise and constantly yells at her for getting excited. He bought a shock collar, and had it on the highest setting. He started shocking her everytime she did something wrong. It was awful. Luckily my grandmother and I started a secret resistance, taking the batteries out of the collar or the controller. He finally gave up, thinking the collar just didn’t work.
I completely agree on the cookies, my horses have always been easy to catch but I still bring them a cookie, so many training problems can easily be prevented, just take a cookie, I wouldn’t want to stop my grazing to go work either, and mine know that they get two cookies and that is it (my mare will nose around until her two then quit), then they don’t mob you for the bucket the whole way home. On the barn sourness issue, work the horse around the barn and let it rest away from the barn (works with buddy sourness too, work around the buddy horse and rest away from the buddy), and get off where you were working or riding not at the barn or the gate. I also get off away from the trailer while away from home as well, that way they don’t learn to rush me to get to the trailer. My two never know when they are going to be done and are never done at the barn/trailer, problem solved. As for a barnsour horse rushing you home circle them until they slow down then proceed forward, the moment they start speeding up circle them again, and repeat until they go home without rushing. The horse will soon realize that it is easier to go at your pace than their pace.
My horses have always associated me with “cookies,” whether I have one in my pocket or not. I’ve never had a nippy horse, either, grabbing for a cookie before anything has been offered. And no interest in my pockets, fingers, or anything else. As for “catching,” if my guy gets free, he runs and runs (I live on an acre, chain link fenced) until he gets it out of his system, then he realizes there might be something to graze on, so he drops his head and starts to eat.
OMG a shock collar? Yikes! Im not a trainer by any means, but for myself and my horses the following things have worked…..
For those hard to catch horses, I would first try grain in a bucket , if in the event that failed I would let them run, go ahead work up a sweat, eventually I would catch them and continue on with whatever I had planned. If that meant loading up and going for a ride, so be it, if they had enough energy to run like a fool in my little 1/2 acre pasture then they could pack my fat ass for a ride. Also, I would just go out sometimes and give treats & pets with no agenda in mind so they wouldnt know for sure why I was out there with them. For my really smart old fella that if he ever saw a horse trailer would run around like a fool I would just go catch him before my riding partner showed up.
What ever happened to a good smack on the nose, shoulder, etc? That works great for me, if they invade my space and act agressively they get a smack on the nose or shoulder and a “NO”. If they happen to bite they are most certainly getting a smack with the brush or lead rope in the jaw for that one for sure. For the most part that works like a charm. One thing that drives me crazy is those folks that while they are riding will let their horses stop and graze. Again a smack on the shoulder and a NO works pretty well for my horses. I dont allow them to graze at all when Im working with them ever. The minute their heads go down they get a jerk on the lead rope and a “Head Up” and they dont try again (I only give one jerk thats enough). Pretty soon all I have to say is “head up” and they know what to do. I sure dont buy into these Natural Horsemanship trainers that insist that you buy their tools. Using shock collars on horses wouldnt common sense say that doing something like that is a receipe for disaster and injury to the human, horse or both.
Julie Goodnight, sigh. Well, I have never been especially impressed with what I’ve seen of her. I suppose she figures that since many people use electric fencing, why not go the next step to shock collars? Of course, the beauty of the fence is that it is out there for the horse to see and leaves the horse alone unless the horse messes with the fence. And horses can feel the electricity without touching it; I finally figured that out one dark night as I was fixing my fence and the fence tester would light up about 1 inch from the wire–ahhh-so that’s how they do it with their whiskers.
Anyways, it is sad that there are so many out there calling themselves NH and being stupid. NH is simply horsemanship (I don’t say good horsemanship because in my opinion there is only horsemanship or the lack thereof) and when done right is just fine.
I am so behind here. I haven’t read yesterday’s comments on the Morgans yet and probably won’t get to these comments until tomorrow or Friday.
*Flame Suit & Helmet properly affixed*
I rode with Julie in early February for a show taping. She at no time lost her temper with any of us, or with our horses. She rode quietly, with soft hands and a soft seat. She was very quiet, mild mannered, and explained my lesson in a way that made incredible sense. I’ve been able to take the things I learned and apply them in the saddle back home. She didn’t force me to change tack, but I asked for a bit to try the second day. I haven’t even purchased it yet, and most of the same techniques are working with what I already own.
I learned a lot in the two days I spent in the tack with her, in addition to everything else I learned the whole week just by watching from a distance.
I wouldn’t own a horse that required a shock collar, or anything resembling a stud chain – I’d sell them immediately to somebody with a whole lot more patience than me.
Hate me if you want for supporting her, but I did, and still do.
I don’t even hate her – I just think she gave very bad advice to people who sound like beginners, and could easily misuse such a strong (and unnecessary) tool.
The owners are talking about riding the green mare, and boarding another friend’s horse. They’ve admitted to separating them for a time. I’d say that’s pretty bright, and perhaps more experienced than we’re giving them credit for.
I encourage folks following to read the entire question and the entire answer on Julie’s website. Julie admits a lot of folks are going to say it’s cruel & harsh, and admits it’s a last-resort. She didn’t suggest a shock collar first.
At no time during the show shoot I participated in did I see even a hint of critter mistreatment. Not a bit. Not all of our horses were perfect little angels, either.
Julie is one of the best trainers on RFD-TV. She is very clear with her instructions, to both human and horse. I still like her even though.
I see lots of people saying “that’s too harsh” or “that’s too mean”.
There are MANY ‘tools’ suggested here that can be JUST as mean. To me, it’s NOT the tool itself, but how you use it.
You can take a Stud Chain and in the wrong hands it can leave perm. scars on a horses face, or better yet, my poor stallion (who is the sweetest on the planet) bumps on the bones in their faces that DO NOT go away.
A spur can be used the proper way, or it can be dug into the horses side until it’s raw and bleeding. That goes for ENGLISH as well as WESTERN spurs.
A whip can be used in a mild manner, or it can be used to whip a horse into a bloody mess.
That BUTT ROPE suggested by FUGYL in a prior comment……ummm ROPE burn anyone? I wouldn’t call that HUMANE either!
And let’s NOT even get started on some of those bits out there!!! You can take the nicest bit, and make a horses mouth bloody and sore. OR, you can take a more harsh bit, and when ridden with soft hands and a good seat have little ill effect on your horse.
And for that matter, something with OUT a bit!!! A bosal! Ever seen a horses face bloody from it’s misuse?
People, it’s not so much the TOOL it’s how it’s USED.
I went to Julie’s site and read the WHOLE article, not just the little snippit that was mentioned in this post.
She also says – Many people are initially turned off by this approach—I suppose thinking it is cruel or too harsh. But in my opinion, in certain circumstances, it is the most humane approach. I know of a horse who has now kicked and killed two horses by kicking them and breaking their legs. Then, take the case of a stall kicker—whose behavior can cause him serious injury and is destructive to property (and may result in him being evicted from a boarding barn). The most common training technique for this vice is to hang “kicking chains†on the horse’s hind legs which wrap him in the legs every time he kicks (and bumps his legs every time he moves). It will discourage him from kicking but you have to leave the chains on forever—not a very nice thing for the horse. Whereas one or two sessions with the shock collar would permanently cure him of stall kicking and prevent him from injury.
She’s NOT telling the people to go out and buy a shock collar and shock the crap out of their horse. She’s suggesting it as an ‘end of the line’ option if you will.
Please, FUGLY, post the WHOLE story for people to read, not JUSt that part when taken by itself looks like she’s telling them to go out and shock the crap out of their equine!
I posted the link to the whole article – it’s there for people to read. I can’t republish the whole thing or I’d be infringing upon her copyright. I can only bring out quotes for the purpose of reviewing it which is what I did.
I have NEVER put a rope burn on a horse with a butt rope. I’ve given MYSELF a rope burn, ha ha, but never hurt the horse.
And sometimes it is the tool. For example, would you say a cattle prod is OK to use on a horse in the right hands?
OK, I understand about not being able to post the whole article for copyright reasons.
BUT, when people DO read what you do post on here, they seem to have ‘blinders’ on and just go off on a rant without reading the entire article. Maybe if you post a bit of the rest of the article, without posting the WHOLE thing it could give people a better feel of the entire story, not just the blurb that sounds bad.
I know, people should take time to read the WHOLE article, like I did. BUT, horse/animal welfare in general is a ‘hot button’ issue and sometimes people just jump the gun when they hear something bad.
AND to ALL of the people that read FUGLY, PLEASE CLICK ON HER LINK TO THE ENTIRE STORY and process it before ‘jumping the gun’
You could have come to my house last year and taken a photo of a horse who was in such bad shape that most of your followers here would have called me all sorts of bad names, called animal control and tried to get me arrested or something.
HOWEVER, when people would have gotten THE WHOLE story, straight from the horses’ mouth so to speak they would have learned that the horse was a horse that I was ‘responsible’ for bringing into this world, and felt that I had to help because I was the ‘reason’ he was in the shape he was in. Let me explain. I owned the momma and daddy, and when my ex and I split the foal was left with my ex. My ex then sold him to a friend, who sold him to a friend of his who starved him to NEAR DEATH and sold him to some people my DH and I know. Those people gave him to us because they didnt know what to do with him. It took almost a year to get him back in good looking condition. BUT, had a photo gotten out…..see how that could have been a mess?
You could drive by a dressage rider using a dressage whip correctly and whipped out your cell phone taken a video clip and posted it on youtube and said that the rider was beating her horse. People would jump all over her! It’s crazy! Totally nuts.
AND yes, I believe you can use a cattle prod in a way that doesn’t cause ‘harm’. You don’t HAVE to hit the button that causes the spark, do you? You don’t HAVE To put a battery in it to make that electric shock possible! You it as you would a ‘carrot stick’ or lunge whip….just an extension of your arm. You don’t have to use the shock part of the ‘tool’.
Wasn’t saying YOU, Cathy have ever rope burned a horse using your ‘trailer method’, but, give that ‘tool’ to SOME PEOPLE and that horse would be in a world of hurt!!
It’s all about HOW you use it, not WHAT you are using.
“You could drive by a dressage rider using a dressage whip correctly and whipped out your cell phone taken a video clip and posted it on youtube and said that the rider was beating her horse. People would jump all over her! It’s crazy! Totally nuts. ”
If she WAS beating her horse, I would do exactly that!
If she was properly correcting her horse, no, I wouldn’t have a problem with it.
I’m not sure you’re going to understand, no matter what I say that:
(a) You cannot convince me there is a good way to use a shock collar on a large prey animal
(b) This blog is my opinion as is clearly stated if you look above. I do not even pretend to be putting forth “both sides.” I’m not. My opinion is that this is terrible advice and that’s the only side of the fence I’m going to be on. If you want to defend Julie, you can, but you’re not going to get me to agree to it. If you think I’m unfairly influencing the horse world with my opinions or something – start your own blog. They’re free, you know!
(b) This blog is my opinion as is clearly stated if you look above. I do not even pretend to be putting forth “both sides.†I’m not. My opinion is that this is terrible advice and that’s the only side of the fence I’m going to be on. If you want to defend Julie, you can, but you’re not going to get me to agree to it. If you think I’m unfairly influencing the horse world with my opinions or something – start your own blog. They’re free, you know!
Ah, yes… And freedom of speech that allows you an opinion allows others to disagree,, whether on another blog, or right here, buried in the comments.
Edit your comments better if you don’t want dissent.
I never said I didn’t want dissent. I encourage other opinions. I was responding to the previous poster’s obvious dismay that somehow I had not given Julie a fair shake. I’m not obligated to and everybody can click and read the whole article for themselves and draw their own conclusion. I have drawn mine. Shock collars? Not appropriate. Not ever. I don’t care why.
I wouldn’t use a cattle prod
Or a shock collar
Or a stud chain
Or long sharp spurs
Or a riding crop (I’ve carried a dressage whip in the tack, but never used it – just held it)
Or a harsh bit
Or rollkur
Or tight side reins
There’s all kinds of tools most of us won’t use…
I know you anti NH’ers want the last words here – and you can have it.
All some of us are saying is .. Julie gave them many other options to try first. The owners had already pastured them separately …
I understand what you’re saying and I do agree to some extent. Largely, the abuse that comes from a gadget is decided by the user. However, some instruments are too harsh for there to be a “gentle” way to use it. IMO, the shock collar hangs on the too-harsh side of the fence, because it is too dangerous a device for people to rely on. Horses can react incredibly strongly to something like this (I’ve seen it) to the point where they can be even more dangerous because they go nuts. They can hurt themselves because they’re so focused on the shock, even after it’s over, and they just freak. I can’t imagine using this on a horse in a confined space like a stall or trailer.
After reading the ENTIRE article (because there are those that do), my dislike does not so much come from the actual suggestion of a shock collar as much as to whom she’s suggesting it. The owner sounds fairly competent, but definitely lacking in overall experience that would’ve helped her greatly in understanding the situation and the horse’s mentality. This to me suggests that she’s still relatively new to horse ownership, or at least to ownership of less-than-dead horses. What’s even more bothersome is her saying they “…both benefited so much from [Julie's] training DVDs, halters and lead ropes, as well as [Julie's] wonderful television show…”. This screams “follower” – someone who relies on someone else’s brain to figure their shit out as opposed to approaching a problem with an open mind then researching options of how to deal with it. While she does (vaguely) mention using “other products”, this owner sounds like she’ll swallow anything Julie says – that’s a person who you have to be careful talking around.
Now, on Julie’s part, “there is one sure-fired method of curing aggressive horses and I have used it a few times for this purpose” – THAT worries the crap out of me. “Sure-fired” is not a safe term to use in this context. I’m not going to go into the consequences of such wording, it’s that obvious. “Curing” does not sit well with me either, as it is rather subjective and means different things to different trainers; I don’t trust her use of it here. That whole sentence is just absolutely horrible as an introduction to using a shock collar. The rest of her response is no better; whether intentional or not, it’s a crafty piece of insinuations and inferences. If you look at Julie’s response as a sales pitch, you’ll see what I mean – it has an ugly backbone.
All that said, I’m not 100% against Julie just because of her use of the shock collar. But when a horse trainer suggests using extreme devices that require a thorough understanding usually obtained by someone of a high level of expertise to someone who obviously is not at that level, then they are plain and simple not a good trainer. …IMO of course.
I think everyone saying Fugs needs to put up the entire article are doing a disservice to the people on this site. One of the reasons I follow this Blog and read the comments is that the people here are all well-read. I’m willing to bet 90% of the people commenting on the article have read it. How else would there be quotes pulled from the article itself? Why else would people be summarizing things in the article? The people on this site write well, don’t use text speak, read the articles posted, and often look for the other side of the issue and share it if they find it.
I WAS (past tense) a big watcher of Julie Goodnight… .Was…
But.. not now, I also found she uses Myler bits.. which some can be good.. I dislike the ones that have the rope over the nose attached to the bit though…
And then there is her “biting system”…
http://www.shop.juliegoodnight.com/shop/ttbittingsystem.html
Lets crank the horses head to its chest.. shall we??!!
My favorite shock collar … the dorito’s commercial!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBaZDWIs3fs
I think it started from this you tube video
Stupid human tricks!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRBeACYKnhI
Are these NH “marketing specialists” looking for the next shortcut to training — you know, for the busy horse person who doesn’t have time to SPEND with a horse? I just don’t get it. The way to handle a horse with issues is to rack up lots of wet saddle pads and time on the ground teaching it manners and respect for space. This is a shame, because the GOOD trainers who aren’t out there pimping the latest “gizmo” are getting a bad rap from those whose marketing skills far surpass their ability with horses.
Well………….I had to use a shock collar many years ago on one of our dogs that had killed our chickens. Waited until she was right on top of a chicken then zapped her. She thought sure the chicken had bitten her. In no way connected it with me since I was way across the yard.
But, I’ve gotta tell you, for YEARS she refused to even SEE a chicken. They just did not exist.
Eventually she would look at them but she never touched a chicken again for the rest of her life.
I gotta add that Ryan Gingrich is pretty good.
He looks at video footage of a horse then in person and 1/3 of the time the horse has a physical issue that needs to be looked at. He will recommend that the horse be seen by a vet, and one time, the horse had a undescended testicle, another time the horse needed to see a chiro.. real bad.
And he dislikes rope halters because he thinks they cause the horse pain…
I agree with some stuff. and not others.. but generally he makes the horse owner do a lot of ground work, or if the horse has severe issues, he takes it home and does a LOT of ground work..
Then goes into saddle work..
pretty good in my book
Hah, I fixed a problem horse a while back for some beginner friends. They had a hot little appendix gelding (apparently sold to them as a colt by some irresponsible trainer). Anyhow, the horse started out at at some “natural” trainer who somehow taught it to flip over backwards when saddled. The horse I guess spent months with another (expensive) natural trainer getting slowly “fixed” and gingerly saddled until they left the trainer and the problem cropped up again. Then they went to a “cowboy trainer” (you know the kind, the ones that can only train the horses they can bully) who decided to – get this – halter the horse in his stall and tie his head up really high, then throw the saddle on him really fast and cinch it up as fast and hard as he could. When the poor little gelding lost his shit, the trainer told them that the horse was dangerous and couldn’t be fixed.
They gave him to me as a last-ditch effort. I “sound-checked” him (made sure he backed up on a lead rope, moved his hips and shoulders and made sure he longed). Then I broke out my bareback pad in the round pen with the horse on a twelve foot lead rope. I put it on him, tightened it a little, then drove him forward when he went up. When he stopped bucking (he was too busy going forward to rear), I let him rest. It seriously only took me about a week or so to get him to saddle politely in the round pen. They were very relieved when I told them that a) the horse was just fine, and b) to sell him to a more experienced rider. They did eventually re-home him to a more experienced home and I hear the guy just tossed a saddle on him and rode off without a hitch. It seems to me like what people have trouble with is the happy medium between too little force and way too much …
*sigh* And probably all the nonsense had made him back sore to boot!
Thanks for helping him!
(And okay, also common sense, I mean … what the hell? When that cowboy “trainer” wanted to discipline a horse not only did he full-on punch them from the ground, but from the saddle that trainer would lean forward and SMACK THE HORSE IN THE FACE. Not only did HE do it, but he taught his little exercise rider to do it AND I saw her on more than one occasion try to convince those same beginner riders to do it as well. WTF is up with people, anyway???) Okay, I think I feel a little better now, lol. /rant.
And as for teaching good groundwork, I know there are a bunch of NH haters here (and I hate it too, often), but Clinton Anderson’s book on groundwork is actually pretty useful if you ignore all of the tack propaganda and just focus on the basics of what he’s saying … His method of loading a difficult horse works really well, I’ve used it on at least five horses now. I got all of them to load without help– one of which it had taken at least 5 people to load only a few days before.
We have an aggressive mare- stall kicker. Picked up the habit after being stalled for a lengthy time on a fracture. Regardless of pasture size she will also kick at gates, buckets, water troughs- it’s a habit formulated by bordem and will likely stay with her forever. Kick chains don’t work and we’ve tried everything else under the sun although we *joke* about shock collars we would never actually use one. But I guess playing devil’s advocate here… it’s common enough to use electric fencing which gives a zap so maybe the usage of a shock collar is along the same lines of reasoning for some trainers??? I’d like to say I’m surprised but I am not (I thought Julie was one of those highly respected and regarded trainers).
Ok, I haven’t read any of the other comments so bear with me.
Turn. the. bitch. mare. out. in. another. freaking. pasture.
Preferably by herself where she can see other horses. Or, try and turn her out with another mare, maybe one who’s bitchier than she is.
I went on this trail ride once on this huge ranch hours away from where I live. My 4-H group came, and we had 2 new members with us. Day one was great, and we all had a blast. The owner gave us two corrals to put our horses in, across the barn from each other. The idea was that mares would be in one pen and the geldings (no studs allowed in 4-H) were in another. The 2 new members did not get this memo, and put their mares with the geldings. So 2 or 3 different people told them (very politely), “oh did you hear that mares are supposed to go over here? I’ll walk one over if you’d like!” Response “Oh, Ok, I’ll do it in a minute” Their mom told them that they couldn’t have dinner until they moved the mares. GUESS WHAT? The mares WERE NOT moved, and we woke up in the morning to find that one of the geldings had LOTS OF SKIN TAKEN OFF HIS BACK. We knew that the mares had done it, because the mom and the riders had said more than once “oh, be careful, she bites/kicks/is aggressive”.The injuries were not just scrapes (tho he had plenty of those too), this was really really bad. The geldings owner was not able to ride him for days 2 and 3, and 6 weeks later, she still had to skip a show that they’d put professional training on this horse for. The mares’ riders did not apologize, although their mom did. They were asked to leave the group.
While I do like the idea of regumate, it is reaaaally expensive, and might not be very practical for the owner. We only use it for certain broodmares during pregnancy because (barring any huge emergencies) the sale price of the foal (in a good economy) covers the expense.
Eh, it’s pretty cheap compared to a vet bill on the gelding, if it fixes the problem. Worth a try, anyway!
A friend’s OLD mare was acting nutso shitso and injuring herself (biting her vulva), and the vet said it was a weird equine equivalent to menopause – he’d seen it before – and recommended Regumate.
Well, she was able to get much cheaper generic progesterone injections, which she occasionally administers, and that does the trick. Mare is fine, sane, and healthy, despite being a quarter of a century old.
Yeah, that would be the easiest answer (and one that I will note the owners had already come up with on their own!)
OMG. I seriously did a facepalm reading this. People are seriously dumb enough to use a SHOCK COLLAR on a horse? Epic fail. How do these people even have any merit? And I’m confused… why do the beginners always turn to the natural horse trainers… vs. someone who knows what they’re doing. I mean, I’d do research first at least. I’d ask a pro. That video is a very good idea!
Sorry, I can’t hold back. You all may like Jessica Jaheil’s advice, but frankly, in her local community, she does not garner the same respect.
Usually a lurker, and totally against the Natural Horsemanship crap, I do want to mention that The Horse magazine has an article that supports the use of the electric collar in solving agressive issues in pasture horses. You will need an account to read the article,
Article
While I would NEVER support its use as a substitute for appropriate training, the reality is that many people keep horses in very small areas. If the horses were too aggressive to turn out together (during which they were unsupervied by a human), an owner’s only other option would be to sell one, or lock them up all day and all night except for riding (which I know happens to many horses in boarding, but certainly isn’t ideal). In those situations, an EXPERIENCED horse trainer (not one of those natural horse nuts) could try the technique in the study to solve the issue. It would, of course, be a last resort.
I just don’t see how it fixes it when you can’t apply it consistently. Electric fence works because it works when you’re watching, when you’re not watching, when you’re at work and when you’re asleep. If the horse only gets shocked for the behavior while you’re standing there, I would think a horse of reasonable intelligence would figure out to engage in it only when you’re NOT standing there.
Proof horses can reason like this: How many of you own horses who get out of their stalls in broad daylight, as opposed to how many of you own horses who turn into Houdini at 2 AM? I am fairly sure horses, much like toddlers, are capable of having 2 different sets of behavior based upon Mommy watching or Mommy nowhere to be found.
Any of Linda Tellington-Jones (TTouch.com) videos will help with behavior problems. She does not use a round pen or subversive methods. She does not use punishment. Clicker training is very useful. I taught one of my horses to turn his head away from me when he wants a cookie. I used it successfully with very herd bound horses. Alexandra Kurland’s (theclickercenter.com) videos are very helpful. One of them shows a mini-seeing-eye horse that she trained named Panda. So cute! I know Cynthia Royal. She used to live in Virginia. She learned much of her training that she does with Blanco from Carolyn Resnick (carolynresnick.com) who lives in Escondido, CA. Carolyn teaches liberty training which she learned from working with wild horses as a child. She is amazing! Her book is called “Naked Liberty.” She also has a great blog! I am learning her liberty training method.
Dr. Sue McDonnell from New Bolton writes a column for “The Horse.” She is a behaviorist and uses all positive reinforcement. I interviewed her a few years ago for an article I was writing on how horses learn. She is VERY good! She was even working with derby winner War Emblem because he was not doing well in the breeding shed. I guess she had to teach him that mares were a good thing. I know she helped him some!
I am teaching another one of my “Thinking Horse Clinics” in Virginia April 25 called “Get Along Better With Your Horse.” Find out more at my website http://www.theexcellenthorse.com
I have thought about doing a video on lunging. The TTEAM lunging method is second to none and LTJ does not have it in any of her videos. Maybe I will think a little harder about doing that!
Clinton Anderson also endorses the shock collar. I asked Sue McDonnell about that. She had some choice words!!
You know, I am going to order some of Linda’s stuff. I remember T-Touch being around forever but I am really not that familiar with it. However, I NEVER hear anything bad about it and I NEVER meet a horse who’s been messed up by it. Therefore clearly this is something I need to learn more about as I might be a huge fan!
*love* Linda Tellington-Jones and the Ttouch method. I am looking into clicker training for my batshit crazy on the longeline appendix. I managed to fix the turn and kick when turned out issue with not much trouble, but the longeline antics are dangerous here where I don’t have a round pen to really get after him…
I remember when she came out with her method, and did a series in Equus.
I’m thinking I need to look into that. I have a feeling, too, that I’d love her.
She seems to be well-grounded in both real horses and good science.
Wow if anyone can come up with good, natural horsemanship techniques for beginners that make sense, are safe & really work – I’d buy it in a second! I am a beginner & have read so much & listened to so many different opinions that I feel like I don’t know which way is up sometimes!
No book or DVD or opinion is going to teach you as much as lessons will. Ever. Figure out what kind of riding you want to do, then ask for recommendations on a good trainer with well-behaved lesson horses that you can learn on. Go watch some lessons and if you feel good about how the trainer works with their students and horses sign up for some lessons.
Sure. And let me give everybody an analogy that will make sense:
Where did you learn more about doing your job? In college? Or on the job?
Case closed…as with most things, we learn things by doing them, not hearing about them or watching them done.
Here is a quote from Carolyn Resnick’s blog yesterday:
” I am a guest on my horse’s back when I ride. Riding is a privilege he offers me and not a right. I ride suggesting my lead rather than demanding and pointing out things I do not like about his behavior. He is not my slave. He is a willing partner and if he is not willing I figure out how to put the willingness back in him without pointing out to him he has to do anything for me or that he is rude.”
Carolyn does liberty training very similar to what Cavalia founder, Fredrick Pignon does. She is really amazing! Don’t think for one minute she lets horses get away with stuff. She can be tough but she has a very different way of working with horses. All positive reinforcement. No punishment.
Frederick has a great book called “Gallop to Freedom,” he says that the only other type of training method he likes is Linda Tellington-Jones’ TTEAM and TTouch. I just wish I could be as good of a trainer as any of them! I have worked with Carolyn a little, and, for 20 years, Linda. Working with Fredrick is next on my list!
I think that basic ground work needs to be part of riding instruction for any newby. Here’s a story: when I was a young thing (when dinosaurs roamed the earth) I took lessons at a “riding academy” on the East Coast. The horses were brought out for lessons and trail rides tacked up and “groomed” by the staff. When I moved west, I got my first riding lesson from a former rodeo trick rider. She told me to go get the horse, groom, tack it up, and bring it to the areana. Well I didn’t have a clue- so for starters I put the bridle on by unbuckling the cheekpieces from everything else, cramming the bit in the horses mouth, and attempting to buckle everything back up again. She yelled at me (jrightfully so) for attempting to destroy her gear, and if I didn’t know how to do something I damn better well ask. And furthermore, a horsewoman wasn’t worth anything if she coudn’t tack up and groom a horse. I think most beginners are exploited by these gimmicky trainers- and don’t think about buying a horse without lessons.
I had the same kind of lessons. I learned tacking up only when I got my own horse and shortly thereafter started working polo. Then I got whipped into shape REALLY fast on things like leg wrapping because I worked for people who yelled at me, LOL.
“if I didn’t know how to do something I damn better well ask. ”
BEAUTIFUL advice.
I don’t know of ANY place here in the lower midwest that does the pre-tacked, pre-groomed lessons.
You only get that on state park trail rides.
Really, why would any horseloving kid even WANT to omit that from her horsey education?!?!!
Oh boy do I remember this sort of thing! As a teen, I was shopping for a new lesson barn (I had reached the limits of what my lesson barn at the time could teach) and I visited one very fancy, very well-known barn in my area (rural northern MD) who had the same set-up. I saw a lot of lesson barns during my ‘tour’ and theirs was the only one who wouldn’t let me watch a lesson, either, unless I paid for one. I didn’t see any point in going somewhere where I could tack my own horse so I politely declined. I believe that place also told me that lesson riders were expected to come in the full regalia — tall boots, etc. I was 16; I rode in paddock boots and breeches — it wasn’t like I was coming in sneakers. What a crock.
Can someone tell me what fugly’s email is? I have a very important question in regards to exposing a large well known schooling barn sending their lesson horses to slaughter when they need money and then trying to cover it up.
resqtb@yahoo.com
I am so happy that I was started the way I was. My aunt was in the British Horse Society and we would spend every summer at my grandma’s house, right down the road. I was addicted to horses already, so I followed my aunt (very experienced horse owner) around like a puppy. Her TB was too spooky for a beginner, so she arranged a swap with a friend, if I mucked and groomed for the friends three horses, I could get twice weekly lessons on her packer of a pony club gelding from my aunt.
From there I went to a crotchety old lady who had been a pony club DC for thirty years, and put up with NO bs. If you didn’t listen, you got off. Voice FIRST, then seat/legs, hands last always, etc. She was not shy about sharing her opinion with you, but if you figured out that she was primarily concerned with the horses well-being (humans being veeeeerry distantly second in importance to her) then you learned absolute barrels of useful things. She was amazing, and knew more about riding and horse care than most. She was completely common-sensical and taught horse “mastery” in her terms. You had to know all the care and feeding to be a good partner to your horse, so her lessons were two hours. Hour one, grooming, tack cleaning and care, feeding programs, TPR’s, signs of lameness, illness etc. Then tack up and a 1/2 hour to 45 minute ride, with proper cool down and grooming after. Afterschool lessons also fed the horses their evening meals. She was the best!
Linda Tellington-Jones and TTouch have helped many,many people all over the world with problem horses. Linda can reference the science to back up the training methods and philosophy,and you just can’t screw it up, it’s a method that’s positive and also helps the trainer or owner to feel more calm and confident at the same time it is helping the horse to learn and to learn to think,not just react. There are lots of videos and books out there for anyone who is interested,and some wonderful clinicians who have put in years and years of dedicated practice to get to be called TTouch trainers. I highly recommend that route to anyone who is interested, it can be easily added to other training protocols as well, to help things along and keep it all cool and calm. She and her associates also work with companion animals and zoos and rehab facilities for wild animals, with great success.
Because here are some, who are into the racing business, what do you think of this
I´ve never seen training like this (and I can´t understand his videos, he´s talking to fast and with too much accent for me (german
)
It looks so damn strange to me- but the horses don´t seem to be that stressed or to be in panic (well in any case less stressed than this PNH-horse abused by Linda we saw some days before).
Why /How does this work? Does he use some reflexes (I think he talked about it before, but as said before- for me he´s talking to fast and on his website you can by his stuff- but read no explanations) [or maybe I just didn´t identified them]
Argh, I think the link didn´t make it in my post:
Just search for “hybrid horsemanship”
I use electric shock in my lessons. It seems to help the beginner riders real well. When they think that their horse “has ” to run to the exit gate with them or when they think that he “has” to cut the corners with them, I tell them that if there was an electric fence blocking him, he wouldn’t go where he shouldn’t more than once. Their leg or rein should be like the electric fence. It should act like a block to his movement. And, if applied correctly, it WILL block him, much like the electric fence. For those who think you have to buy every gimmick thing out there, for my training, all I use in a 25 foot clothes line, a lunge whip, and a snaffle bit, and I show on a national level.
WIN.
Hey,
hilarous video about the Natural Horseman Method.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foH4eTovuZU
(Just bear with the first 25 seconds)
Makes me laugh everytime!!!
))
Now now not all who have fantasy based sites are wackadoo’s. I am planning a website with kind of an airy fairy feeling and I can assure you I take great care of my animals. AND I have seen sites that were super slick and professional looking (no unicorns…I actually won’t be using unicorns or pegasus though..) that ended up being the fronts for a super abusive/starvation situation (it was in Texas, the website made you think total pro…no faeries, no unicorns, etc. ) The site was SLICK and made the farm look equally as slick.
Oh yea and I plan to have cutesy stories too. This is not really an indicator of a good or bad breeder/farm/rider etc.
I think that anyone can hide dirty secrets behind ANY kind of website. From the most professional looking to the most informative seeming.
Just wanted to say that.
As for natural horsemanship, MOSTLY not a fan…..most of what you say FUGLY makes perfect sense to me so I must think somewhat similar. I just disagree about the websites
(off to ride my fancy unicorn now !!)
I’m not going to go through all 200+ responses to see if anyone else mentioned this, but ya know, aside from shocking a horse seeming really inhumane, what are you going to do when it figures out that it only applies when he’s wearing the collar and you’re standing there? I mean, if my cat knows to check to see if I’m holding the spray bottle before doing something she’s not supposed to do, I’m pretty sure my horse can figure that out, too.
Have you looked at the Saddle Up with Dennis Brouse TV series on PBS. He has a lot of useful info on his web site for beginners. He does offers a series of DVDs for sale, but also has some nice video demonstrations and articles on his web site. He seems down-to-earth, gentle, and insightful regarding equine behavior and training. He might be a good one to recommend. Check out the web site at Saddle Up with Dennis Brouse.
Fugly, why on earth do you call this “natural horsemanship”? Why do you keep blaming “natural horsemanship” for stupid things horse people do?? I would have never in a million years put shock collars in the same category as horse training of ANY kind. Why don’t you just call it like it is. Stupid, ignorant, this person doesn’t need to be around any animals or children, anything but a training tool. By the way, we ALL use tools when we ride and train, (dressage whips and crops, bits, spurs, those lovely tail harnesses and chains on feet) so why do you keep insisting that anyone who uses a tool is anything but credible?
Don’t get me wrong, I know the difference between a carrot stick and a dressage whip. The price. I can also tell the difference between a credible horse handler and one that is full of shit. Either one of them could fall under any category of horse training.
Shock collars are NOT a way of training, naturally or otherwise. If you have ever read about Tom or Bill Dorance, Ray Hunt, Leslie Desmond or Chris Cox or watched any of their videos, (Leslie Desmond has an excellent video for kids and beginners) you would know that this kind of crap is NOT something they would do or advocate.
Please stop blaming one method of working with horses for stupidity. You are NOT helping to educate your readers when you do that.
Lisa Salas, the Odd farm
Lisa, the woman’s business name is JULIE GOODNIGHT NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP!
Google it if you do not believe me.
This cracks me up to no end. Julie Goodnight is great at marketing herself, but throughout the years I have remained unimpressed by her horsemanship skills. She has made herself a big cheese at Certified Horsemanship Association (which is in itself a bit of a joke) She proclaims herself a great force and leader in the Colorado horse industry. Sill, many others of us in Colorado remain skeptical, to say the least. As a self-professed leader of wanna-be riding instructors, she should know that recommending e-collars is a bad idea, And recommending it to the public at-large is even worse. (I know she puts a disclaimer in there…but we all know a lot of idiots out there who consider themselves equine “professionals”) These collars don’t belong on dogs and they don’t belong on horses. The idea is ridiculous, dangerous and lazy.