What’s in a word?
Mar 08 2010
Great article and very thought-provoking!
The article contains a quote from pro-slaughter veterinarian Dr. Tom Lenz: “Unwanted horses are defined as those no longer wanted by their current owner because they are old; injured; sick; unmanageable; fail to meet their owner’s expectations; or the owner can no longer afford to keep them”.
Using Dr. Lenz’s logic, everyone who is single or in the middle of a breakup is an “unwanted person.” Are you unemployed? You must be an “unwanted employee.” I can see you all rolling your eyes at those comparisons because, as we all know, having one person or one company not want us is, well, part of life and something we all experience, and those unwanted statuses can change in the blink of an eye – the next thing we know, we’re in love with someone else or going off to start a great new job.
It’s the same thing for horses, of course. Owner A cannot wait to get Horseykins out of the barn whereas the next owner acquires it and thinks Horseykins is their dream that they have been searching for all of their life. My favorite horse of all time – my 30 year old who I still own – was literally thrown at us in 1985 because she’d just broken someone’s collarbone and had become equus non grata in that barn! I loooooved that mare – played arena polo on her, jumped her, even ran barrels and poles on her. To label a horse as unwanted because one single individual, the current owner doesn’t want it, is ludicrous. But as John Holland observes in the article – it’s all semantics. It’s all to avoid the word I would use, surplus horses, which is about the same thing John says with “excess” horses.
That pretty buckskin pictured is a classic example of an “unwanted” horse. She was a broodmare, got dumped to kill, “rescued” by CBER, off to a hoarder haven (remember that picture I posted a long time ago of the trashy chick’s myspace pic with all the guns? … that one), wound up back on the lot, re-rescued by Save A Forgotten Equine, who finally after a couple of tries found the right trainer for her and now here she is with her owner, who loves her. Happy ending. No longer “unwanted” but a happy, contributing member of equine society who now has a good home because of it. The difference was simple. Training.Â
As I’ve noted hundreds of times before, the reason we have a problem is that our supply of horses exceeds the demand for horses, and a contributing factor is that the demand is for trained horses, whereas much of the oversupply is untrained horses. It is like unemployment – it’s not that all of you who are without a job suck, it’s that the supply of employees currently vastly exceeds the demand for employees in many fields. As a result, some of you are going to have to go back to school and retrain for a field there’s more demand in. I know many people doing this already. Sometimes you gotta adapt. Horse breeders, you gotta adapt. STOP OVER-PRODUCING IN A DOWN ECONOMY. Instead of having 10 foals, have 2 that you train. Or buy back some of your previously produced horses that are in trouble somewhere, put training on them and take them to the shows so that people want to buy more horses from you.
Do you know who can drive your horses’ value up to pre-recession prices? YOU! Do you know how people who are still getting awesome prices for horses get it? Well, they show up at a horseshow or other competition with a good looking horse that kicks ass. It’s like magic – people clamor around trying to find out where they can get one just like it. Stop sitting around pouting and talking about “snobby horse show people.” The show horse people aren’t snobby, they’re using common sense, proven tactics to drive up the value of their horses. If you think western pleasure is stupid, you don’t have to do it. There are a lot of other events. There’s a vast variety of equine competitions out there – something for everybody. All of them, short of crazy shit like horse tripping, drive your horse’s value UP.
Now, are there some horses I would classify as unwanted? No, but there are some horses I would classify as difficult to place. These include unsound horses, older unbroke horses, and horses with some kind of major mental issue/vice. I do not think there is anything wrong with euthanasia, as most of you know, as a solution here. That said, I have seen everything from 35 year old toothless Appaloosas to bat-shit panel-jumping BLM mustangs find fabulous homes and be very much wanted. I myself have a particular liking for old ex-broodmares and have supported quite a few for the last few years of their lives. There is a not-so-small element of the horse world that truly enjoys having old coot horses to pet and spoil, and it’s a good thing because there’s also a not-so-small element of the horse world that likes to dump those horses.
All in all, I agree with John. Unwanted is a meaningless term and a way of putting a spin on the situation without having to admit that it’s time that everybody drastically reduced the number of horses they’re creating and put more emphasis on training the ones that are already here. But fewer horses means less work for the registries and, oh yeah, the veterinarians – so that does explain some of the very self-serving opinions here! Sheesh people, we can all follow the money and see what’s driving your remarks. Not a single one of you can or has effectively argued with my logic that fewer, higher quality and better trained horses would almost completely solve the problem here. There is no reason for not supporting that solution that is not self-serving and related to your own greed. When I hear that some of these ding-dongs with the registries are still encouraging people to breed, breed, breed, or some of these pro-slaughter state Horse Councils having incentive programs to breed, breed, breed, I want to fire up that Bitchslap World Tour Bus and get it on the road. And we’ll stop at the home of any breeder who wants to simply sit on her butt and pimp out her completely unaccomplished stallion(s) and put no training on the foals she creates.  Ridiculous. And that’s a word that does apply!
278 comments to “What’s in a word?”
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First! and a first time poster. Long time reader. *waves*
Not a whole lot to say but totally agree with the training. Never too old to learn new things, it’s always worth the dollars and effort. I know if something happens to me my horses will always have a home because the training I have provided and paid for ensures it!
Now if only you could open up a magic portal into the brains of idiots and cram this info in there? Too bad you cant FORCE people to listen to reason.
I feel like I have repeated myself a lot but I still get a lot of e-mail from new readers who say that the whole supply-demand thing never really occurred to them, so I guess it still needs to be said. It is shocking to me how many people are still out there with this cute little dream of having a farm and raising horses and no clue about the realities…good grief, please just play Farmville. PLEASE.
My neighbor is running an operation like that… she has a herd of not totally fugly, but not great Morgans. She was breeding a few years back. I am glad to say I haven’t seen a foal in at least 2 years and all of her horses are well fed and see a farrier regularly. Now if they would only clean up the huge fallen oak tree from their turnout. They managed to saw the thing up but have left the scattered wood pile/branches everywhere. I’m still dreading the dy I drive by and see a gashed leg or worse…
Speaking of FarmVille… they recently added horse stables, lol.
My hay guy has a 3 year old stud colt. He has all the “great” blood lines, dash for cash, go man go, blah blah blah. He bought this little fugly at an auction for 65.00! Apparently the guy who took his heard in almost two years ago didn’t realize this colt was include. who knows! But the point to my post is, my hay guy is older about 69. He conitinues to brag about what an awesome horse he has and how everyone wants to breed to him. I told him why don’t you wait a few years get him trained, show him, do something to prove that he’s worth breeding!! He keeps telling me he’s already proved himself in his papers. It’s very frustrating, like I’m talking to a wall. He has this one little girl, and when I say little, she’s about 14 who wants to buy a mare just so she can breed and get a baby, I’ve told him everytime he brings that up that she does NOT need a baby, that she can go out and buy a good horse to do western pleasure….*sigh* He will not listen, so what do you do?
Ask her why would she breed a mare to this colt when she can go to an auction and buy one for $65.00!!
I know that, very occasionally, it is possible to pick a good horse up, well bred, with papers. Take him to some shows, prove his worth, then breed a couple of nice mares and see what the foals are like, pretty much as is happening with the VLC (not that he cost $65.00) Then you can boast that he only cost $65.00 at an auction.
How often has this happened to me?
In my lifetime?
Of 65 years?
Never.
I have picked up good animals that, with food and training, have more than paid me back, but never an entire.
The first thing that happened with any entire I bought was a visit from the vet and, twenty minutes later, two stones lighter!!
LOL no, he did not cost $65. But I’ve already got more than his purchase price into training him and I’m sure far more is to come. That’s the game – you can’t cheap out and quality training is totally worth it. And no, he is not dying from taking a few years off from breeding – although he will tell you he is. But he also thinks he is dying if he has to sweat or get rained on. I’m fairly sure he will survive all of those things.
I don’t know her, BUT i do keep telling him (my hay guy) that he should hold off and get him trained. I’ve said it to him,it feels like 100 times! Feel like I’m wasting my breath. He’s old and set in his ways and does not see how the economy has hit the horse market. I’ll keep doing my best though to discourage him, believe me!
Yeah, I don’t know if you can change them at that age. Change the teenagers…that’s the best hope for horses. Look at all the kids learning about slaughter and why you don’t breed carelessly thanks to Joe at TB Friends.
Exhibit A
http://dayton.craigslist.org/grd/1629973436.html
At least she’s not skinny and she is trained. But, since I guess paints are a dime a dozen, why breed?
<<<>>>> Maybe I’ll send her the link to today’s blog entry!
“Looking to breed while we have the funds to do so.”
HEL-LOOOOO. The costs of a new foal do not end with the stud fee — they barely START with the stud fee. You have vet work, mare care, and then you have a baby who needs its own feed, vetwork, etc. etc. etc. — and then training.
If your ability to add a horse is limited to a temporary availability of funds, you can NOT afford another horse — and that’s what a foal is, *another horse.* Usually the most expensive kind of “another horse.”
That is of course presuming that the BYB is going to do all of those things after they’ve bred their mare!
While she appears to be a cute and pleasant horse… What about her says “breed me!”? If you really want a baby, buy one who has the breeding to be taller and a nicer hind end and you know what the spots will look like already. The pointy butt look doesn’t tend to go over so well in paint shows… I wouldn’t mind owning a horse like her from those pics, but can’t come up with a reason why you’d want to breed her, especially so young!
I hope you do send the owner a link to the blog so they think about it. She looks like a perfectly ok mare – but doesn’t appear to have anything outstanding about her to make it make sense to breed her in this economy and take the risks with her life!
Forget the pointy butt…look at her front legs..they rotate out from the knee. No amount of trimming is going to fix that.
Wouldn’t it be nice to think that stallion owners would just say no.
I think many people in the US get so wrapped up in the “pet horse” idea that they fail to fully appreciate the economics driving the horse industry, and not just the point that a horse is an expensive animal to own at any given time, but for a lifespan of 30+ years. I really wonder what percentage of horses kept as companions or working professionals in the US live their entire lives (or even from three years old till death) with the same owner. I’d imagine very few. That suggests that a horse’s life is typically characterized by changes in ownership. So to extend Dr. Lenz’s definition to this, that would mean the vast majority of horses would be unwanted regardless of training and accomplishment, and perhaps unwanted repeatedly in their lifetimes. Obiviously a gross oversimplification.
I peruse the CL ads for horses here in eastern NC often to kill time, and I’ve noticed that the prices for trained–and sometimes extensively shown–horses have dropped significantly over the past year, with some prices nearing the level of untrained (and often ungelded) pasture ornaments. There was definitely a rash of “my daughter has lost interest in riding” horses for sale in January–methinks that is more of a reflection of the unrealistic expectations of parents with little horse sense and even less teenager sense (i.e. horses are expensive, but teens are expensive and fickle). I think that struck me as the best example of how human behaviour is the only thing that needs to be adjusted in this situation. How many of those otherwise perfect horses ended up at auction because Miss NewThing changed her mind?
I really wish more people would take care of their animals that gave them so many good years till they pass. In this state people think nothing of hauling their 25 year old horse to the auction, knowing the meat buyer is likely to be the winning bidder.. They say better get a couple bucks off them while they still can.. People have actually told me I was stupid for holding on to my old friends. Why feed a horse you can’t ride?? Geeze.. I hate this state.. At least I can take care my aged horse collection, including my 31 year old. I don’t care what they think!
I have to say Good For You! I see that a lot here–once a horse gets so old, not winning enough for the owner, off it goes, and they don’t care where or what happens to it. I think that if you use a horse, showing, working, or just riding it for your own enjoyment, that horse has earned a good retirement from you.
Some people were pressuring me to sell my old mare last year, asking me why I keep that thing. She’s my buddy and she’s here for life, and I get plenty of enjoyment just going out to pet her every day. She’s taken care of me since I was a kid, and now I do the same. (These same people can’t imagine why my family tries to visit our elderly members in the nursing home every day or so either. I can’t wait till they are old and their kids lock them up and never visit or check to see that they are treated right.)
We had a pony that lived into her early forties before this that didn’t do much but mow the lawn, but she’d packed people around for years and deserved a good end. We made her her own paddock and run-in so no one bullied her, and she could take as long as she wanted to eat, and she was very happy.
I use the old retired mare for showing the young greenies important stuff. Just a couple weeks ago, the old gal taught our giant baby to cross the bridge over our creek. The old mare was so excited to be doing something she was cantering alongside me as we went to get the baby. But as soon as we were “working” she settled right down and was Miss Dependable. I’d been trying to convince giant baby to get on the bridge forever on my own, but having a horse to show her got her over her fear in a few minutes. Next up, getting the greenies past the ostrich farm….
Just to be a devil’s advocate here, there is the cost of keeping an old horse to be considered. Once the horse is not “producing,” why keep it?
But don’t take me seriously. I’d never sell a horse at a kill auction. If it’s not going to find a good home – well, part of my savings account is dedicated to euthanasia.
And I completely agree that we owe them good treatment after they have worked so hard for us. If we can’t afford to keep them for whatever reason, we should give them a peaceful end.
Still wishing to win the lottery, Ruthie
To that first sentence, I would say, why support old people if they can no longer work? Off with their heads! Look at the money it would save!
Everything can’t be about the bottom line and dollars and cents, right?
Very true. Not everything is about dollars and cents. I’d be willing to put 5k into my cat if she needed it, and she’s just a cat… a lot of people would say I’m crazy, but I love her.
OTOH, I understand that a lot of people aren’t that attached to their cats. Or their horses. So I’m totally okay with humane euthanasia if someone can’t make the vet bills or upkeep. Aaaand my cat just clawed me on the way up my chair. ARGH! *slaps at her*
What do you consider “producing” to be? My horse is just a good old trail horse. But he does more for me than just trail riding. He’s my buddy. He’ll stand for an hour while I brush and fuss over him. He listens to me talk, without interjecting his opinions. He eats his hay while I sit on the ground beside him, just listening to him chew.
As long as he’s comfortable and able to move under his own power, he’s “producing” something for me and will have a home with me. And of course, the moment he can’t do that anymore, his final moments will be with me.
I wouldn’t dream of putting him down just because I can’t ride him anymore. He’ll get a nice retirement until his time comes.
I am so with you, horsegal71. I, too, have a 31 year old “money pit’. Nope, I dont ride her…nope, I dont know what she has done in her life that is “worth” anything. I tried to research her tattoo but it is so faded, i dont know if the horse I found was even her…TBH, dont even really care. What I DO know is that she needed me to rescue her from hell in late 2006. She was a 27 year old “unwanted horse”. The thought of taking her to the sale NEVER EVER occurred to me. I made a commitment to her right then and there that she would live the life of a queen until she was ready to go to heaven with dignity. If I had a dime for every time someone said to me “why dont you just put her down?”, I would be a rich lady. I refuse to put her down just because I am tired of taking care of her. She is sound, healthy and wild as a march hare some days. I am fortunate enough to be able to afford anything she needs and just because she is old and just chilaxing and just one big “bill”, I dont care. God will make the decision when she is ready to go and until then, i am here to pay for her time on earth. That is the least I can do for this “unwanted” horse.
I cannot imagine parting with either of my seniors (27 year old mare and 24 year old gelding) to an uncertain future. The couple of bucks I would get from their sale wouldn’t come close to easing my concience. They are lifers at my place where they will be cared for to the best of my ability until they die. Few things makes me angrier than seeing the craigslist ad looking for a new home for an old, one eyed, arthritic senior with no teeth. For God’s sake if you can no longer take care of him then having him humanely euthanized is much kinder than other possibilities. There ARE worse things than a humane death.
My 27 year old mare yesterday:
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2316384570080191555nLgyPD
PRS, I have a gelding that is only 24. I only wish he looked as good as your mare. He did not get very good treatment in his life, so he has been living in the lap of luxury for the past year….
On a semi related note, wasn’t there a blog recently on resources for people in the northwest, who to call if you need to put a horse down, and need the carcass disposed of? I wanted to donate to one of the wildlife rescues, but I have had him on continuous wormer, so that is out. Poor old guy is really having a hard time with his back end. Arthritis, plus Cushings, plus being asked to do too much too young.
FUGS, if I am not crazy, and there was a discussion of resources on here maybe you could post the link off to the side where the rescues are. It might be helpful….
She’s beautiful.
Love the pile of hair on the ground~ wish we were to that point here in Va. Hair’s hanging on like the cold here, thankfully. But I heard peepers so better things are on the way!
But more on topic: I just said to my husband Sunday that if I could find wonderful, forever homes for my horses I would consider giving them up. He was aghast! Surely I wouldn’t! But I would. But in that same token, I know I am blowing smoke because there are so few forever homes for horses and my chances of finding one much less two for my 2 would be short of a small miracle. I worry. What if my life were cut short? They would be something of a burden to my husband (I have to rent a small farm to keep them on) who is not of the horsey type. Then what? They are young, 11 and 6 respectively. I have one (local) horsey friend who is currently carrying their own burden in equine fashion. I no longer have horsey sibling. I worry what would become of them? They have been ornaments of my fancy for the past 2 years because I have had so little time to commit to them. I am working to make some serious change in that respect due to big changes happening. But I guess it is something we all must consider at some point or another. Tomorrow is not promised to anybody…anyone want to volunteer for signing up as my equine beneficiaries?
Very sweet mare, so many horses just get so better with age, great trail horses they have more sense most of the time there not so scared of the horse eating leaf or garbage bag,
PRS what make of saddle do you have? I am looking a newer endurance saddle or maybe aussie
A lady that my mom used to trail ride with had owned her horse for many, many years. When he became too old to trail ride and was not sound, instead of doing the right thing and either caring for him as he had for her or euthanizing, she called the kill buyer DIRECTLY and had him come pick him up. She said she might as well get some money out of him. My mom was furious and to this day has never spoken to that woman again.
I bought an 18-year-old QH ex-broodmare that had been trained and shown before being a broodie. She was 16 hands, gorgeous and sweet as could be. A couple of years later, I just didn’t have the time she deserved and gave her to a girl who really wanted to do 4-H. I had a buy-back clause on her and a few years later got the call that they were moving and needed to sell the mare. By this time she was 26 and a little arthritic in her hips, but very sound at a walk and trot on the flat. I brought her back home and loved having her there as my girls were old enough to pack around on her some.
It came down to the fact that I just could not afford two horses, but I had promised her a home forever, so I advertised my sound, younger, riding horse. As it turns out, two women came to look at the horse I had for sale. The one lady already rode and they were looking for a very quiet horse for her friend. My gelding was a little too much for her. They had trails mowed in a grass field, and she just wanted something to walk and trot on about once a month. I pulled the mare out and told them how old she was and that she was still sound at the walk and trot, but I wasn’t really looking for another home for her. They rode her and it was love at first sight! They took her home that night! She is now 30, still living fat and sassy in their beautiful barn and pasture. I knew these were the right people for her and I gave them to her with the condition she would live out her life with them. I’m still in contact via e-mail and she lives close enough I drive by a few times a year just to make sure she is still there. And she looks great!
I guess my point to all of this rambling is some people will never appreciate the older horses and all they have done for them. I LOVE older ones and would have a barn full if I could! I still have the gelding I originally advertised. He’s a lifer and is now in his late teens or early 20′s (no papers on him). I can’t imagine selling him and having him end up with someone who doesn’t care for him, or worse, on a long truck ride out of the country.
One of my relatives did this with two OTTBs, retrained as HJ..They are beautiful and cleaning up around here..One of my friends said that they are the perfect example of what a former race horse CAN become..She did use a pro trainer for awhile in the beginning, so it was an investment, but it’s paid off..They have a second career..
Someone once told me that it takes 5,000 repetitions for a student to learn a concept. Some people take more than that — I’m sure my first dressage lesson included at least 5,000 requests to “sit up” and I’m still having problems — but having a mannered horse makes sense if you want to do something with it (like groom it, maybe?) or when you have the shoer or the vet working on it. My horse may not be setting the world on fire in the lower level dressage world (see “sit up” comment, above), but his vet, shoer, and others like him a lot because he has wonderful ground manners and is very biddable under saddle.
When I got him off the track, he was thin and hurting. He didn’t know where he was and EVERYTHING new was possibly “the track eeuuww” and he was ready to explode. Now he’s “fat and sassy,” calm and sound — and very well behaved.
I have one rule at my house: “I was here first.” Every animals learns to do what I say. And the horse thinks that’s a pretty good deal.
Cathy, you’re right. “Unwanted” is in the eyes of the beholder. It is a relative term that applies now and then. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure and all that.
I wish the Horse Councils would get on the ball and work on tax reform for horse owners- I have to pay property tax on ALL of the horses I own, even the retirees I can no longer use and would be considered “worthless” to anyone- EXCEPT of course, the assessor! Most people with any $$$ sense would just dump these guys at the local sale barn but of course, not me… Perhaps some kind of tax incentives for owning horses of a certain age or something (and not breeding them, of course) would help keep people from dumping their retirees?
And I can’t believe the horse council/ ag sites I read where you get tax breaks for BREEDING horses– talk about contributing to the problem!! Geez~
I seriously am considering looking into getting a non-profit “sanctuary” operation for my oldsters & other rescues in addition to my horse business (lesson/boarding barn). But would I still have to pay taxes on the sanctuary horses? Am guessing so… Anyone have any experience in this end?
Check out 5501 c(3) laws. I believe a 501 c(3) is tax exempt, so if you turned your sanctuary into a 501 c(3), you’d be able to retire horses without the added tax. I’m not completely sure how it works, though.
Yes, the same thing about nobody thinking about supply/demand happens in dogs. Nobody seems to think at all about homes until after they’ve had the “brilliant” idea to breed their dog and end up with a dozen unsellable pups. People don’t seem to think about the 3 million + surplus dogs being euthanized each year in the USA alone.
I’ve had dogs with 20+ titles in many sports. One of my dogs was USA #1 for conformation and #2 for obedience AND had OFA excellent hips AND was an award winning therapy dog and model. He and all my other dogs have been neutered the second they finish their conformation championships. I’ve been in dogs since 1977, and have never bred a litter, nor do I plan to. Yet I run into people weekly that have some fugly dog with dysplastic hips bred to a male down the street (often not even the same breed) so they can “get rich” selling puppies. Of course they never have homes pre-arranged, so end up dumping a bunch of puppies at the humane society, then breeding the female again at the next heat. I
t’s not just horses that are in excess right now… I wish people would stop breeding EVERYTHING for about 5 years… enough to get the surplus animals that are already here some good homes.
That goes for dumb ass people. Especially!
I can’t agree. Once again if you are breeding high quality dogs, with good hips, eyes, cardiac, etc, then you should never feel badly about breeding. My dogs go to homes with contracts that if they can’t keep the dog I will always take it back. I am not adding to the problem of over population. People come to me looking for this particular breed of dog with all the health checks done and careful decisions on what dog I breed my bitch to. I am not responsible for the dogs in the shelter. I am not responsible for crack babies either. I am responsible for the decisions that I make. I don’t think it’s fair to twist people’s arms and say “oh you must adopt a shelter dog because it will DIIIEEEEEE…..” Guilt trip deluxe. I have three registered appys. I don’t feel bad because fugies are going thru the sales and going off to become hamburger. Well, I feel bad but was not going to end up rescuing horses that I don’t have the money to take care of. I DO rescue my breed, have been national chair for rescue on 3 different dog clubs and am current prez of the local humane society. I will continue to breed. If I waited five years, I’d lose the lovely dogs I have now, the bitches would be too old to breed. I keep my old dogs and yes, I have 13 dogs right now. Love them all. Oh, yeah, and a rescue dog, too, who as soon as he finds a new home, I’ll be getting another one. I specialize in the elders, the current one is 8 which is young for what I usually take but most of the ones I take and place are 10 and older.
No. I don’t feel bad at all that someone says “when your dog is born another one dies”. That’s BS. The other would have died anyhow because it was a beagle soemthing and unattractive and no one wanted it but the owner of the dam thought it would be nice to have pups. I am not responsible for her decisions…..
I agree with you, Kallista.
As a newbie to the horse world, but having grown up with dogs and been involved in dog rescue for many years, I’ve made the comment several times in the past few months that the horse world is light years behind the dog world in regards to the “spay / neuter” debate. I cringe every time I hear someone at the barn talking about planning to breed their mediocre horse this year, or recite a horse’s pedigree like they’re listing the ingredients off of a box of pop tarts. And the barn cats! OMG I want to call the neuter scooter and have them all spayed/neutered! Do you know how many cats could be rescued from the humane society and live a great life at the horse barn?!
I need barn cats and would LOVE to adopt some, espcially ones who are used to living outside and are already fine living in a barn. Unfortunatly, the ASPCA and Humane Society in my area won’t let any of their cats be “outdoor” cats. I know tons of horsepeople in this area who are in the same boat. We could really help them out, but no dice.
Contact your local feral cat group. They’ll mouse and they’ll live outside!
Yeah, the animal rescues and shelters around here won’t give you an animal unless you keep it inside, or if it’s a dog, have a fenced yard. My mom has almost 40 acres of farmland for a dog, but they still wouldn’t let her adopt. They would rather kill the animal then give it to someone who might let it outside or walk it on a leash. Our shelter only keeps animals two days before killing them or selling them for animal research too.
Heh, wish you lived close to me. My sister found a starving litter of very young kittens last fall in bear country. They are now healthy, friendly, neutered/spayed, and catch mice all the time. They figured it out on their own. They make great lapwarmers too.
We already have a zillion cats though, cause people keep dumping them on us by the cartload, and have been trying to find a home for them since we found them. Not even the no-kill animal rescues would take them, cause they are full up. It would be great if they could find someone to love them, but if not, they can be mousers here. (My friend keeps finding dogs in her yard, and my co-worker had two horses show up in hers that were never claimed, so I guess we’re lucky it’s only cats.)
Belive it or not, they won’t let anyone take the ferries (feral + kitties) in either! I’ve talked to them and apparently they make you sign something when you bring them in for spay/neuter that you have to release them where you found them. I think that that is just the extreme liberal nutjobs in my neighborhood tho.
(no, I don’t think all liberals ar nuts!)
Now, here’s an question about horse trainers. Why are there so few qualified horse trainers?! When I lived in the U.S., my small Missouri university town had 16 dog training facilities… many Saddlebred stables… a university equestrian program…but not a single horse trainer that trains for the public. Horses were nearly as popular as dogs in this rural area, but they were mainly lawn ornaments because there were no trainers that could start them under saddle. One Missouri friend worked as racetracks and trained as a dressage instructor, and is now trying to train her 5 young Mustangs on her own. Another friend and her hubby who are avid trail riders trailer their Foxtrotters to a trainer ten hours away. That’s the closest reputable trainer they can find… just for starting under saddle–nothing too technical.
Conversely, while Missouri is hardly a hotbed of the competitive dog world, there are several accredited, residential dog-training programs in the state. At Tom Rose (www.tomrose.com, whose methodology I disagree with–but a well-run program), you actually have to adopt four dogs from a shelter, spend 1-2 years at the program training them and put titles on them in a variety of sports in order to graduate. There are many other serious programs for dog trainers, from university degree programs in the UK to professional training programs at the S.F. SPCA to accredited continuing education courses through the APDT.
I am unaware of anything like this for horse trainers, other than the occasional clinic, seminar, plus the (cough) Parelli program. I know many people in the dressage, cutting, reining, TWH and Saddlebred competition worlds train their own horses. However, it would seem to me that we have waaaaaaaay too few “public” horse trainers that train horses for ordinary riding. The ones I do here about are the ones on Fugly, that have no experience, no training, and tend to be hoarders.
Are there any accredited horse training programs in the U.S.? If there is such a need for trainers, why don’t more people get trained and become horse trainers? Surely a horse trainer could make more money than a dog trainer (since demand exceeds the supply in the former). But there are tens of thousands of professional “public” dog trainers, while I get the impression there are merely a few hundred public horse trainers in the country. Is being a horse trainer simply too expensive? I’ll admit that the facilities required are more than those for most dog trainers, even people who train for sheep herding, which also requires barns, arenas, fields, etc. Is horse training too dangerous, or uninsurable? Or is it just the lack of accredited training places making it so nobody can learn the profession? By accredited, I mean that the program is government approved and students can qualify for government-issued student loans.
I meant “hear about”!
There’s a huge shortage. Why?
1. People don’t want to pay what training is worth or give a trainer enough time to finish a horse properly. They want 30 day results.
2. Training is physically very dangerous and no one gives you health insurance.
3. Professional training has been grievously damaged economically by all the STUPID DIY horse training videos and clinics out there. Now every asshat thinks they can DIY. They only hire the pro when they’ve effed it up.
4. The abusive asshats win classes, fame and money so often that those who are doing it right get discouraged and quit.
Really, I find it wondrous that we can still find good trainers out there.
And these reasons too = )
That’s so true. I’m not a show-quality trainer, but I’ve ridden most of my life and I can start a horse under saddle and get it going quietly in W/T/C, and on trails. I’ll even do it for free, because I’m a student and can’t afford any sort of horsey-time (lessons/lease/etc) right now, and I need my fix! But no one wants that. I have several neighbors who approached me about training their horses, but because I won’t guarantee a “finished” horse in 30-60 days, (and I refused to train an 18 month old colt anything other than ground manners and showmanship stuff) they’re not interested. All they would have to buy is proper equipment (and feed)! They’d rather have a useless, untrained horse in the pasture and gripe about professional training rates. Oh, and breed their mares every single year and get even more fugly, untrained babies. ARRRRGH.
It’s very very hard to make money training horses. A lot of people that just want a “riding” horse don’t want to put enough money or time into training. They want to give you a hundred bucks and 2 weeks to produce a dead broke horse. That’s why most trainers are specialized into one discipline or another. Owners that have specialized into a discipline tend to have goals that require money, time, and a lot of effort. These types are often more willing to put that money into a trainer and give the trainer the amount of time (and respect) necessary to produce a well trained horse.
Plus, trainers are likely to get much more out of an owner that shares their common goals in a discipline (future training, lessons, purchases, sales, etc.) It’s very very hard to make money being a trainer, so you do have to use your time wisely. Usually that time is best put into horses and owners that can enhance your reputation, not owners who just want a trail/riding horse semi-broke after 30 days.
I know some casual owners will turn out to be great customers for a trainer. However, growing up on the pro side of the business (in arabs then saddlebreds), I have to say that usually the people who want “30-day wonders” are not the kind of customers most pros want to cater to. Unfortunately, this means many people just wanting their horse “broke” end up going to cheaper (and less than qualified) trainers or can’t find a good trainer even if they’re willing to shell out some extra money.
My advice to those who want a qualified person to “just” break out their horse: give them 60-90 days (at least) if the horse is not broke to saddle yet. Be willing to fork out a little extra cash (it’ll be more than worth it in the long run). Also look for a younger pro with a solid repuation or an older pro who is semi-retired and/or no longer into the big show circuits. These trainers often have a stall or two free, and they can be more willing to take on a horse that isn’t going to be a world beater at the shows.
All of the above reasons… Plus:
1. ANYONE can hang out their shingle. Horse training is not regulated, so any yahoo claim to be a trainer
2. Starting babies under saddle is dangerous work for very little compensation. I don’t want you to take up a stall at my place with a greenie that I will risk my neck on, just to then have you take the horse home after 90 days. That stall makes my employer a lot more money if it has a horse who will be here long term and bring in show fees. Our money is made mostly on show fees. Plus, that stall will also have a horse who I have to break only once (taking that risk), whereas if I base my business on starting horses I will then have to refill that stall and start all over several times a year. That equals much more risk for much less money.
Lets add that there are many people who send their horses in for training that don’t pay their bills or won’t do what the trainer requests in regards to health for the horse, which makes the trainer’s job more dangerous. Who wants to work with a horse who is lashing out because the owner’s saddle doesn’t fit right? Or work with an unbroke or super green 3 year old when the bills aren’t being paid?
Great article!
Speaking of unwanted horses….
http://tampa.craigslist.org/psc/pet/1622224092.html
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BTW – I’m nearby and can get her and arrange transport if anybody wants her.
Why do people who are trying to sell or give something away use such lousy grammar and spelling? Aren’t a couple sentences worth such a small effort? My impression is that it must not be very good if it doesn’t even rate normal sentence structure.
I haven’t owned many horses or ponies, but whatever I had, I kept until I had it put down in old age.
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Several people at my barn use David Landreville and love his work! He has helped rehab quite a few horses’ hooves.
We are at the same barn as Lucky (at least two of my 5 horses are anyway), and we love David Landreville because he is highly knowledgeable about the care of their hooves, but also in working with them to get them to trim if they have issues of picking up their hooves. I have a young horse that was out in pasture for her whole life minus a couple months of possibly harsh/hard training and she isn’t too trusting of people just yet, especially with her hooves. David has come to work with her almost every week since I got her a few months ago, or at least bi-weekly to develop trust. He also got our TB, Elliot, out of a “lameness” loop where we thought we would have to put him down. Thanks to David, Elliot is still here and sound now! And my mare will allow him to trim all four feet without a twitch or other device to force her to stand. She actually likes him! :O)
I really liked the article by John Holland, the one by Dr. Tom Lenz not so much. He contradicts himself several times, the most obvious being when he gives the definition of the “unwanted horse”-generally geriatric, incurably lame,have behavior problems or are dangerous- and then goes on to state that 92% of all horses arrive at auction in good condition.
He also shows how he either did little research or just twisted facts to suit his logic by commenting that “Some can be retrained for other uses. This is common in racehorses that often find second careers in dressage or hunter jumper competition or cutting horses that find second careers in team penning or as pleasure horses.” Common? Often? Really? I’d like to know the ratio of OTTBs being retrained vs those being sent to slaughter. I’m sure it wouldn’t quailify as often.
He does touch on hoarding and low breeding standards of some breeders (I’m going to make a safe assumption he is talking about BYBers) but he fails to call out any big industries contributing to the overpopulation problem. What about PMU farms? What about nurse-mare farms? What about large-scale breeding operations breeding bloodlines with genetic problems and selling the afflicted foals on the grade market (one in particular comes to mind, HYPP breeders). Worried about a little backlash there big fancy vet man? Granted, horses with genetic disorders may be deemed “unwanted” under his definition but what about the thousands of foals slaughtered who never lived long enough to become lame, sick, or develop behavior problems? Seems to me he ignored a pretty big part of the problem, creating an unwanted by-product that gets sent to slaughter in the name of proffit.
Sure, every horse out there has been unwanted at some point unless it is bred, born and lives its entire life on the same farm. Every horse I have ever owned was unwanted by someone. That is why I have them and I’m glad someone didn’t want them because I’m happy to give them a home for life.
Sometimes I wish Europe would ban American horsemeat, it can’t be healthy for them with all the drugs we treat our horses with. Yes, the backlash would probably be severe and conditions for our horses at home would get worse. But maybe it would give the horse industry the kick in the ass it needs to get the overpopulation problem under control if no one else would take them, even dead. We sure as hell can’t do it on our own as there are too many idiots out there bound and determined to put as many foals on the ground as they can no matter what happens to them. You know these idiots can’t be counted on to regulate themselves.
“Often? Really? I’d like to know the ratio of OTTBs being retrained vs those being sent to slaughter. I’m sure it wouldn’t quailify as often.”
I don’t know the exact stats but it really isn’t a majority of Thoroughbreds that go to slaughter. The anti-racing people like to say that, but it’s not. Remember, the Jockey Club is actually anti-slaughter – unlike some registries!
That is good to know. I’m only familiar with what I see in my area, and that is more TBs in the kill pen than being rehabbed. If that is not the norm across the country (apparently not) that is great. I see a lot more “sport horses” and anything with spots used for H/J and Dressage around me-ugh-and only know of a handful of people that rehab TBs succesfully-DIY goofballs with no experience not included. As for the Jockey Club’s stance, I knew they were anti-slaughter but always take what organizations say with a grain of salt because it is too easy for them to talk from both sides of their mouth. If they practice what they preach that is awsome. You know a lot more about it than I do so I will definitely take your word for it. I am ever the cynic on all topics equine though, too many bad experiences and horror stories have left me a bit jaded. Any group, large or small, advocating for the horse has to prove themselves in my opinion-it seems the ones that just want you to take their word for it have the most to hide.
To be fair, we have a surplus of Thoroughbreds in our area, which is probably why we see it more often. Not that it’s an excuse. But there are several groups who work very hard to stop the chain of slaughter here in Ohio and West Virginia. Not all racetracks are compliant….for instance, Mountaineer has been very difficult to work with in the past. But most tracks, Magna tracks specifically, are very good about making sure their horses don’t go to slaughter, and if they do go to auction, they have groups that go to the auction and buy the horses from the meat buyers. Is every OTTB saved? No. But the Thoroughbred industry is making an effort to reduce the amount of OTTBs that are going to slaughter.
From what I’ve noticed, most of the horses that go to slaughter in this area and eastern Ohio are washed-up Amish horses and Standardbreds. The amount of drafts and Standardbreds that were winding up at Sugarcreek, Shipshewana, and New Holland was heartbreaking. Anti-slaughter groups and animal welfare activists have greatly reduced the numbers of these animals as well, but they are still the majority of the animals going for kill.
I’ve read that about 10% of slaughtered horses are Thoroughbreds and over 70% are Quarter Horses. That does not mean that only 10% of OTTBs are slaughter bound — it could be fifty percent. It’s just that there are so many more Quarter Horses that the percentage of Thoroughbreds is small comparatively.
I would be interested in knowing which businesses, in addition to the PMU industry, raise horses for slaughter. Since most slaughter-bound horses are Quarter Horses, there must be many large-scale operations that breed specifically for meat, and probably hope to make a little money on the side with private sales. I mean, the trend in halter horses looks like something designed to produce meat.
The nurse mare foal industry is guilty of sending many of their animals for slaughter, too. The babies, specifically. Hundreds of these babies are born every year, and a handful are rescued and placed by rescues and animal welfare groups (my filly is a nurse mare foal), but the majority are still slaughtered. In the case of nurse mare foals, they are prized mostly for their hides. Anything made out of “pony skin” is really made out of a baby foal. The paints and colored foals are highly prized, but the skinners aren’t picky. They’ll take anything. And many of these foals are quite nice….mine is a full TB. Her daddy is a stallion standing at one of the TB farms, although they won’t tell me who unless I pay his stud fee (and I can’t afford $15,000). But there are also QH, QHxTBs, Walkers, draft crosses, etc. They are ripped from their mothers at birth and either set aside for rescue, sold to the skinners, or the most vile farmers just leave them to dehydrate in the sun. It’s truly heartbreaking.
Kennedysmom, that story they’ve told you really sets off my bullshit alarm, big time. Could somebody be trying to scam you? If she’s from an accidental breeding, how does a stallion with a $15,000 stud fee get access to a nurse mare foal? Or produce a throw-away one?
And, in general, why can’t a mare nurse two foals? Maybe because they’d have to supplement the babies and feed the mare more, which diminishes their access to the almighty moolah?
Yeah; I think St. Paul was right: the love of money is the root of all evil.
Ruthie, sadly
kirri- Mares bred for use as nurse mares are not accidentally bred, they are bred for the sole purpose of nursing an abandoned or orphaned foal. After foaling they are leased out to farms who breed high dollar show or racehorses to nurse the abandoned or orphaned foal, resulting in the mare’s biological foal being pulled from her side before shipping her out. The farms leasing these mares have no need for the foal nor do they have any interest in their welfare. These foals are simply a by-product of keeping these mares lactating to nurse the more valuable foals. I have checked into nurse mare operations out of curiosity, many seem to also have other breeding operations. It seems very plausible that some of these foals could have good bloodlines if the farm is standing quality stallions. Do a little research, you might be surprised at what you find out if you are unfamiliar with nurse mare farming. It is pretty sad what happens in that industry and it is more common than you might think, especially in areas where there are a high concentration of high-end breeders.
Sorry, meant to reply to StPetersGal, I’m trying to type with a 200 lb English Mastiff climbing in my lap!
St Petersgal:
It is not bullshit and I wish it was. Often times, to pay for the nurse mare, a breeding farm will breed the mare back with one of their stallions. It happens frequently. Most nursemare foals are half Thoroughbred for this reason.’
For more information on nursemare foals and nursemare foal rescue, see the Last Chance Corral website and blog. They are happy to answer any questions you might have about the industry which is very real and ugly.
This is why I’m hoping the new…but currently expensive…way of creating a nurse mare takes off.
You get a nice solid draft mare (draft mares are preferred as both nurse mares and embryo transfer mares because of the size of the uterus and the udder). You give her a regimen of carefully balanced hormones. Then you massage her vagina. The regimen induces lactation and puts the mare in a hormonal state similar to that of a mare that just gave birth.
Assuming its done right, she’ll take the first foal given to her…whether she thinks its hers or whether she’s just been pushed into a state of ‘must have baby’, of course, is impossible to tell.
But there’s no extra foal being produced and they can also use mares that are hormonally normal but can’t be bred, for example because of uterine damage. The Standardbred farms pioneering this method are getting young but unsound draft mares that might otherwise go to kill and giving them a job.
I don’t LIKE the use of nurse mares just so people don’t have to ship a foal, but there’s a bottom line here, and if you’re going to do it…doing it without producing extra foals that are often euthanized…or worse, simply abandoned to starve…has to be better.
“He does touch on hoarding and low breeding standards of some breeders (I’m going to make a safe assumption he is talking about BYBers) but he fails to call out any big industries contributing to the overpopulation problem. What about PMU farms? What about nurse-mare farms? What about large-scale breeding operations breeding bloodlines with genetic problems and selling the afflicted foals on the grade market (one in particular comes to mind, HYPP breeders). Worried about a little backlash there big fancy vet man?”
LMAO: Call them out? If memory serves, before becoming a drug company VP, the good Dr. was in repro. practice breeding hundreds of QHs a year for his employer. He is still closely involved in AQHA (current committee member).
Oh, this also isn’t the first time the numbers cited and arguments constructed around them have not made sense in his “publications”. The numbers you noted are derived from previous studies and USDA stats., not from his personal experience at, say….New Holland or Shipsey.
I have no doubt the dude has been around the block enough to know that any type of buyer can and does purchase horses at these auctions. He does not give a rat’s ass about fact or reality, though. This is about creating an image (unwanted) and hyping it to achieve a goal: unregulated disposal of horses, which allows the industry to engage in…..You all know what is coming: unregulated breeding. As Fugly has pointed out, this dynamic enables the industry to continue to function completely out of balance in terms of supply and demand. It is very precarious and it is irresponsible agricultural practice.
On the drugs side in Europe, thats really tightly controlled. Every horse must have a passport and either the declaration which states the horse will never go for slaughter must be signed by owner and vet (once signed a subsequent owner cannot undo) or all drugs given must recorded, including bute. Theoretically this is to prevent any of these drugs making it into the food chain and the horse must have a passport by either 6 months or a year (not sure which) and the passport must always accompany the horse even if you’re just going to a one day show. Needless to say the first thing completed on all my horses’ passports is always that section.
Well, that is in theory.
In practise, my vet has not once asked for my passport, or if any of my animals are bound for slaughter (none are, all passports are stamped thus, too)
In practise, all you have to do is throw away the passport and register for a new one with anyone of the passport agencies, and that is exactly what anyone stealing a horse is doing!
Even microchips do not prevent this, as they can be wiped with a magnet, and a new one put in to match the new passport.
So, as with the US, we have the legislation in place but are doping nothing to enforce it.
Amen Sister!
PS If you decide to get the Bitchslap Tour bus going count me in!
I worked for two different vets for a couple of years, and we saw this all the time. People would move to Texas from up north and along with getting their first pair of boots and a hat, they go an grab an acre and stick 5 or 6 cheapo 2 year old stud colts on it. They’d only go to check out the horses on weekends and sooner or later because of crappy fencing or bad management, they’d end up with us. Most of these horses had to be picked up and pushed into the trailer with panels before we could take them to the clinic ’cause guess what? No training. We were lucky if they were even reasonably halter broke. The people would say “Well, that stinks. Where do I sell them?” We’d stare back at them going “You are CLUELESS.” I really think when people move here they should be given a pamphlet with all the western ware stores, and a quote to the this effect “Don’t buy a bunch of livestock until you know what the hell you’re doing!!!”
With a little work, it could be quite catchy.
You need some catchier slogans for that and then put them on western style t-shirts. You know…something like Think You Can Breed Em – Let’s See Ya Ride One First with a pic of a bronc! I love the idea. It’s so true. It’s mini farm disease.
*Looks for good bronc pic and decides instead to use a pic of sister beinf thrown off sassy pony*
Yes, I do have a mean streak, but everyone ended up ok, and she never rode backwards on him again! (long story.)
Sorry, sloppy fingers. I meant “being” not “beinf”.
If the new “ranchette” owners were looking for a couple of horses to have in the yard and ride once in a while, could the feed stores, real estate agents, etc leave out fliers for local rescues? This is a situation where a couple of older rescue horses could be win-win
I wouldn’t do that to those poor horses. These are people who need a crash course in horse ownership and maintance. Once they went through that, I’m sure 90% of them would bail out. they just want to write home and say, oh, yeah, I’m a real cowboy now!
TOTALLY agree! I work with several of the new ranchette owners who have asked me how they go about buying a horse… Most think horses are maintanence free lawn mowers! I have talked several into buying tractors!
It won’t be “win-win” unless the ranchette owners know how to take care of the horse. So many seem to think they require no care beyond munching the grass in their “paddock.” And, of course, since they pick up their dog poop weekly, that should suffice for the horses, too. Perhaps presenting the fact that the average horse produces 9 tons of manure per year (based on 50 lbs a day)… I’d say it would require a lot of supervision, like weekly visits.
And there are so many variables… Here in Colorado, the amount of land that can support a horse, without supplemental feeding, varies from place to place. Where I used to live – the very high plains – it took 35 non-irrigated acres. Here – maybe 120 miles away – it’s 20, I think.
Feed stores and vets should promote classes in basic horse care.
Ruthie
Wow. That’s a fanTAStic article!!! Really succinct, and gets the point home. Yes, now where can we post this that every single breeder sees it???
To start, I say that ANY person who belongs to a “horse board” should put a link to the article in their signature! With a descriptor something like “Why I DON’T breed horses!” Just think of the good that could do!
I know everyone who reads this blog gets it… but they’ve probably had arguments online in other places and (a) don’t have “backup” to prove their point (other than referring to a well-written blog – which is unfortunately “one womans” opinion) and (b) it becomes a “he said – she said” kind of argument. Well, just point them to the article, and ask for proof in the same form in return backing up the opposer’s viewpoint (of breeding more FUGLYS).
Problem solved, non??
LOL, well the article is one man’s opinion, and you’ll be told that, but by all means link to it – the more readers the better!
I’m going to be in a minority here, and I know a lot of people are going to dislike me for my position on horse slaughter. I want to preface my opinion by saying I love horses. I would never eat a horse. I would never send my horse to slaughter. She is going to live out her old age in comfort either at a boarding barn; or, if in the future I can afford my own farm, at home. In an ideal world; every horse would have a loving home, poor quality horses wouldn’t be allowed to reproduce, every horse would get undersaddle training, the perfect horse would be matched with the perfect home, and in this ideal world there would be no horses left over for auction. But it’s naive to think this perfect scenario is ever going to come to pass. The situation can always be made better by education, but in the end the world will always have its fair share of idiots. So there will always be horses that don’t have homes.
I don’t understand why it’s so horrible for these horses to be sent to slaughter? Why is is better to euthanize them and let what some people will readily eat go to waste. I don’t understand it, I would never eat a horse but many cultures would. I love a good steak and there are plenty of people who think eating cows is awful. The problem in my opinion isn’t with horse slaughter it is with humane treatment of food animals. If the horses were given decent care, weren’t made to suffer and not kept in a way that they were terrorized before slaughter (shipping or holding lot) then I am okay with horse slaughter. But again, I am not okay with my horse going to slaughter, or your beloved horse going to slaughter. Just like if I had a pet cow I would not be okay with it being turned into dinner.
“If the horses were given decent care, weren’t made to suffer and not kept in a way that they were terrorized before slaughter (shipping or holding lot) then I am okay with horse slaughter.”
There’s no way to do that when commercial slaughter is involved. If a horse’s body can be used after euthanasia, which some parts of it can (for example, the tail), I’m fine with that. I also don’t object to an experienced person who knows what they are doing shooting a horse in the head, and the meat then being used for something else like feeding zoo animals. But if I take a horse to a slaughterhouse, no matter HOW I kill it, I guarantee you it is going to sense the atmosphere, smell the blood and be scared to death. I’m not ok with that ending for a horse and I never will be. Unless your horse dies on site, you don’t know how it died, and if you believe someone else that the methods were humane, you’re naive.
I disagree. There are ways to make animal slaughter as humane as possible. Did you happen to watch the HBO movie on Temple Grandin and the innovative changes she came up with for cattle slaughter? Horses get scared over wind. Horses get scared over nothing. We take horses to horse shows and that can be scary for them too. So you say you don’t want them going to slaughter because it would be scary for them? There are lots of things that are scary to horses. I’m saying make it as pleasant as possible. This is not naive, and it is something that could happen.
When certain things are made illegal (like horse slaughter), there are unintended consequences. Black market pop up. Black Market horse slaughter is awful. In some cased you end up with people stealing privately owned horses to slaughter for meat, like what happened here in South Florida not too long ago. Pet and Show horses were stolen and killed for the meat, because there was no legal means to getting horsemeat. That doesn’t make what the criminals did ok, but it was part of the reason they felt okay stealing horses, because they couldn’t purchase it legally.
It’s also much worse to have horses that go to slaughter be purchased here in the states and have to be shipped to Canada and Mexico. If they were slaughtered in the US, they would not be subject to these long-ass hauls.
I think a better solution is affordable euthanasia centers where you could take horses and, as long as you show proof of low income (let’s say under $40K) you can have the service provided at reduced cost or free. The fear a horse experiences at a show is not comparable to smelling blood and knowing danger/death is ahead. It’s a prey animal – you can’t tell me there’s a way to remove that component in a slaughterhouse.
I don’t agree with the “smells blood” theory. I’m sure everyone is familiar with Dr. Deb Bennett. I don’t think there’s anyone more knowledgeable about horse anatomy and the science behind horse behavior. In her blog, which I read daily, there was a discussion about whether horses sense death. She claims that in all the years that she’s been teaching horse anatomy classes, she will take her students straight into the university’s student horse boarding barn, with blood and guts still clinging to their lab coats, and go up to any horse and have the students touch the horses to contrast with what they just dissected in the lab. She says she has never seen a horse react to it. She is of the scientific opinion that horses don’t connect blood and guts with any sense of impending doom. I also don’t believe that horses have the cognitive behavior to make the connection. They may snort at a dead animal carcass because it doesn’t smell good, but I doubt a horse thinks “uh oh, that thing there is obviously dead so I better leave or I’ll be dead too.” I think that gives a horse’s thought process a little too much credit.
We all know that they feed off the panic of other horses. Heck, I see that almost every day in the riding arena at the barn I board at! But as the one poster said, there are ways to minimize the stress. If the slaughterhouses were required to make those kinds of improvements, then all for the better in my opinion!
Can you remove the fear completely? Probably not. Do I think because the horse might be afraid for a little while is a reason on its own to say horse slaughter shouldn’t be legal – no I don’t. You’re right, horses are prey animals. It’s part of their nature to be scared easily. I’m saying it can be minimized as much as possible. We do things to horses all the time that scares them, but that doesn’t stop us. Why should it stop us only in slaughter?
Because slaughter encourages irresponsible ownership by providing a profit even for people who do not get off their dead ass and so much as halter break. To me, that is what it comes down to.
If you are suggesting a way to euthanize and still use the meat, i.e. by gunshot, where the owner does not make a penny on the transaction, then I’m more open-minded on the topic.
Fear isn’t the issue, it’s the fact they are improperly stunned, then eviscerated alive. To properly and humanely kill a horse you have to inject them, or shoot them directly in the brain. If you inject them you can’t use the meat. If you shoot them, thanks to mad cow disease, you can’t use the meat (for humans). Captive bolt was determined by vet studies back in the 60′s to not be an effective way to kill horses. They won’t be still enough to place the shot, and the horse’s skull is to thick for a killing blow.
I have no problem with horses being humanely killed, and the meat being used. Zoos, kennel owners, whatever, as long as the horses is kindly and humanely put down.
I saw the Temple Grandin movie.
Did it make any difference?
No, not really.
Slaughter houses are like any other business, they will continue to be greedy and not care until they are forced, by law, to care.
Why didn’t it make a difference? Obviously it could only make a difference in the slaughter houses that utilized the changes.
I’m not blind to that fact that feed animals have it bad. I’m not a proponent of that. All I’m saying is don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. It is possible, with a political and popular will to make slaughter more humane.
What I thought was interesting in the movie (and I’ll admit I don’t know how true to life the movie was, but I’m guessing it was more or less factual) is the slaughter house’s didn’t want to implement the changes because of a fear of the expense. But when they realized the changes were cost neutral or would actually save them money then they did it.
Just my opinion, but I don’t think that the fact that selling horse meat for human consumption is illegal in America is the reason for the horrendous back yard slaughter of family horses in South Florida. There are free horses advertised everywhere right now, you can gather a dozen or more in one day. It would seem the only reason for killing and butchering someone’s horse in their back yard would be either the person who wants the meat doesn’t have a horse trailer or they don’t want to deal with disposing of the remaining carcass if they did get a free horse. Thus, they kill, butcher out the meat and leave.
Also, rumor has it that there are dozens of butchers and restaurants in South Florida who offer horse meat to their special customers. That adds up to way more than the 22 poor horses butchered in their pastures. It just makes me sick.
You have a point; if it were done properly it could work. Why do you think slaughter businesses will ever do it properly? THEY DON’T WANT TO CHANGE. They make more money doing it this way and humane treatment will cost them more. In the decades of modern horse slaughter, there has been no will on the part of the various industries to change. Horses are still slaughtered using cattle slaughter systems. Why is that? If the slaughterhouse owners cared they could spend the bucks and design something better. They don’t. Canada has rules that are undoubtedly similar to those that were in place in the U.S. They are designed to protect the meat and therefore the human consumer, not the welfare or comfort of the horse. Yes, they COULD change. Why haven’t they changed in Canada? Why do you think they will?
Look at the sequence of slaughter. Start with the auction house. Have you been to a low-end horse auction? Do you think that industry wants to change? Do you really think it is going to?
Then look at horse transport, as in mass transport of horses to auction. Do you think they care about “doing it right?” If they do, why are horses still transported in double deckers? Why are they crowded the way they are? I assume you have seen the USDA photos of hundreds (thousands?) of grotesque injuries of horses arriving at slaughter plants. It’s not a secret that these injuries happen… the industry tolerates it. The Teamsters strongly opposed regulations governing humane transport of horses. Why? They COULD support changes that would humanely transport horses. I don’t see it happening; it would cost too much. And I’m sorry, but if you cram dozens of horses into a truck, even for a short trip, there can be horrific injuries.
When they get to the plant, injured horses are warehoused in lots. Are they treated by a vet? Are they kept comfortable? What do you think? And what about the impact on local towns and the environment when these plants continually dump carcasses illegally and don’t follow the rules?
You might say, ‘well, we need better laws.” No doubt. But there are laws in effect that are broken all the time. Law enforcement does not exactly have horse treatment at the top of their list of things to police.
I think it’s totally false that legal slaughter is more humane and better for horses because there are government agencies overseeing it. That’s just a falsehood the industry promotes. There has been too much proof to the contrary, and the reality is that the government agencies, like the USDA, are not overseeing animal welfare, only cleanliness and suitability of the meat. As in the scandal of the Chino meat packing plant that had a full-time vet, welfare of the cows was not an issue, only the health of the meat (and in that case even that was questionable). In the end, the goal of each segment of the slaughter industry is to make money. It’s a business. Humane treatment brings down the bottom line.
So I am having a tough time RE the argument: “If someone else wants it (horse meat), and there is money to be made, then what’s wrong with it (shipping it overseas)?”
Other countries believe in human trafficking, right? Why don’t we round up orphaned children or illegal immigrants and send them overseas?
Because its morally and ethically wrong.
A simplified example to a complex argument, but I personally am missing the difference between the two.
It seems that we assign levels of importance to different beings: human, dog, cat, horse, goat, cow, chicken and on down the line…
(Which I am guilty of myself as I do eat meat…)
Sorry, my post ended up in a weird spot, meant to have it under Showhorsegallery” and “katphoti”s posts about exporting meat…
I think I am in the same sort of position as you, Tundrah. I am a member of an omnivorous species, and my diet reflects that, but where to draw the line? I think for me it has to do with the intelligence of the animal in question, whether it is appropriately used as something raised for meat.
I do not, however, see a problem with an animal that dies of natural causes, or is humanely put down (because it can no longer live healthily/happily/comfortably, not just because someone doesn’t want to take care of it) in a fashion that does not make consumption of the meat dangerous. Many humans’ bodies are even put to good use after death, through organ donation, or donation of the bodies to education and/or research.
Showhorsegallery, I don’t want to misinterpret your point, but I think you are trying to see slaughter as a practical solution to a problem and as a system that can be improved. I personally think euthanasia is a more practical solution to horse overpopulation, partly because I don’t think slaughter methods will be improved to any significant degree. Another big worry I have is that slaughter is a link in the horse meat industry. It only stands to reason that if you are a rancher interested in producing horse meat, and you can raise a few hundred horses on your leased BLM range land and send them to the local slaughterhouse at the end of each year or so, it is simple math whether that is a profitable enterprise. If, on the other hand, you have to ship those horses to Canada or Mexico, which increases your costs, and it becomes increasingly difficult to do so because of laws and resistance by horse lovers, it may just not be profitable to continue in the horse meat industry. So I do not want to encourage and promote the growth of the horse meat industry. The people in this industry want us to think that slaughter is a reasonable and even humane option for old, sick, lame and unloved/mistreated horses. They promote that idea even with the illogical conclusion that the only way sick and lame horses can get to the slaughter plant is by transporting them in great discomfort and pain (and against the law). And in reality, meat sellers want young tender meat. They don’t want old, tough horses or skinny ones with no meat, which is why that group does not comprise the majority of slaughtered horses. So I feel that in addition to other humane arguments against it, legalized slaughter will absolutely increase the number of horses going to slaughter because it will contribute to a growth in the slaughter industry.
If anyone’s on the fence about horse slaughter, google “No Country for Horses” by the Canadian Broadcast Company (CBC). I think it was linked to in an earlier Fugly post. Make sure you have a strong stomach. Not only is this a cruel business, It is ugly from an enviornmental point of view. If you have any doubts, check out the pile of internal organs out back. Because of the drugs they receive, horses’ organs can’t be used for pet food, and must be disposed of in some other way. Their blood cannot be digested by conventional cattle blood digesters. Cruel to horses, degrading to the envirnment…
I read this blog all the time and while I ALWAYS agree that no training = a ride to mexico on a double decker.
I also think there is a need for an equine slaughter house back in the United States.
Why couldn’t it be run by an animal shelter type organization, to ensure proper treatment of animals.
As long as there are backyard breeders, we as a horse owning society need options.
I don’t think all breeders should be lumped into the “OMG don’t breed anymore horses” category either.
If responsible breeders stop….imagine the piece of shit horses that will be the only thing to pick from in a couple years.
I show locally, I don’t breed. I don’t own a stallion. I never ride a $20 piece of crap horse and I never will.
When it comes time to replace my current stock, I will be online looking at foals and 2 yr olds of quality. I want that option.
I’d love for there to be horse shelters EXACTLY like dog shelters that include euthanasia for animals that are not adopted within a reasonable amount of time.
Why don’t we have them?
Ask the no-kill freaks. You know, those people who somehow think it’s more kind to keep dogs in cages for four, five, six years than euth them.
No-kill and our death-phobic society have virtually ruined any chance horses have for a painless and humane end to life for owners who can’t afford to foot the bill. I applaud the rescues that offer euth clinics because they ALL get bashed by the no-kill wackjobs. You guys want to know why you don’t have a King County shelter in the future, well, it all started with no-kill freak Nathan Winograd visiting and writing a scathing report about what I KNOW, FIRST HAND, BEEN THERE MANY TIMES to be a very well run and unusually clean and caring animal shelter. But ooooooh no! They actually euth dogs who attack people. OMG, shut ‘em down…
Big fat amen. Being dead doesn’t hurt. Nor do they anticipate death like we do, so they are not afraid of it.
Also, many animal rights activists (ARAs) have gone “underground,” and are chipping away at animal ownership bit by bit. The King County shelter is a great example.
Without the shelter, there will be more animals abandoned or neglected. Now the ARAs have a bad situation (which they created) and will push for mandatory spay/neuter, punishingly high license fees, number limits, breed bans and other ways to keep us from owning animals.
For animal welfare, all that is needed is good cruelty and sanitation laws. Enforce those, and animal welfare will improve. The ARA-supported laws punish the law-abiding owners. The creeps just ignore them. Results: fewer and fewer responsible breeders; more and more irresponsible ones. More “proof” for the ARAs to use to make even more restrictive laws. All working towards their goal of no human interaction with animals at all.
Ruthie
I think you may be a little naive about what the “going to slaughter” experience is for the horses in the USA. It simply can’t be done commercially in a humane way like it can be for beef cattle. I live in Switzerland where horse meat is served in restaurants and in private homes (it’s delicious and I will eat it when I can afford it, it isn’t cheap). Here there aren’t holding pens or slaughter plants. When someone has a slaughter horse, they make an appointment with the local butcher, trailer the horse to him themselves, then stand there and hold it until it’s dead.
Also, horse training is taken very seriously here, even horse ownership. A person must go through a training class and pass both an extensive written exam and riding exam before they are allowed to own or compete in any competitions. To become a horse trainer you do a 3 year program, very intensive, includes classroom studies and riding instruction, competition etc.
Ps. I had a pet orphan steer I raised from birth for two years, then we ate him. He had a great life, a quick painless death, and he was delicious.
Drea, thank you for that excellent post that’s a real eye-opener. Unfortunately, though, slaughter of cattle is no more humane here in the US than it is of horses. If people in the US really knew how their food is slaughtered and prepared…well, I believe we’d have a lot of people switching to be vegetarians real quick.
I really appreciate your pointing out that you eat horsemeat. Sometimes I think we Americans really need to get our heads out of our asses and start thinking with our brains rather than our hearts.
This is exactly the kind of horse slaughter I would like to see in Canada and the States. I find it absurd that we have slaughterhouses in Canada but you can’t sell the meat here. But I digress. I would like to see horse meat as an artisanal product… only small scale slaughter by butchers and farmers. But for that to happen there would have to be a lot FEWER horses so the product could be expensive. Heh, we could even have a breed of horses bred specifically for their meat! I nominate some of those halter horses to be foundation stock.
*sigh* It will never happen though. The people who go OMG HOW COULD YOU EAT HORSE would never allow it, and the idiots who breed too many horses won’t cut back either. Oh well, I can dream.
You are not in the minority, SHG. I absolutely agree with every word you said. And to add onto that, I don’t understand why a horse’s life is more “worthy” of being saved than a cow, pig, chicken, or other food animal. I know plenty of people who keep cows, chickens, pigs, etc. as pets. Are their lives less meaningful than a horse’s in these cases? I know plenty of people who are bleeding-hearts about horse slaughter, yet will go home after a protest and have a nice juicy steak for dinner. Why is that okay? A cow’s life is still a life. In my opinion, if you’re going to bitch about horse’s being eaten, then you need to stand up for all animals as well. “Cows, chickens and the like are just food animals” is no excuse. And yes, I am a vegetarian.
It is also NOT OUR RIGHT to decide what kinds of meat people eat. For example, in the Hindu culture, cows are sacred and would NEVER be eaten. Yet they don’t give us shit for eating cows. It’s not fair for us to condemn others for eating horse when we sit and eat the animals they consider unworthy of slaughter.
No, but to my knowledge we don’t import cows from India to eat. If they want to eat horse in Japan or France, LET THEM EAT THEIR OWN HORSES.
It’s all cultural – in our culture, cats and dogs and horses are pets. So we don’t eat them. In another culture, all three of those might be eaten. That’s fine. You do that over there. I don’t want it over here, and neither do most Americans – as polls show time and time again.
There are some people in the US that DO want to eat horses though. And we do have a surplus of “unwanted” horses. I don’t disagree with you that horse’s should be bred less, trained more. I’m right there with you in regard to Quality over Quantity. But that doesn’t change the fact that there are a surplus of horses, that horsemeat is a commodity that can be sold for a profit. If you can ship horsemeat overseas and make a profit doing it, more power to you. Just do it in a humane as way as possible.
Generally I agree with you on a lot of things – but I think this is a point where we both will agree to disagree.
I agree with you, SHG. Plus, Fugs, why should we demand they keep their horse eating over there and not import it from us when we actually get a lot of our meat from overseas? Kobe beef and most of the cheap seafood we get at places like McDonald’s, Long John Silver, and in grocery stores come from overseas. With the decline of grazing land for cattle and other food animals in America, more and more people are looking at overseas imports due to cost, supply and demand. So import and export of food goes both ways. They send us food and we send them some. To think that we get all our meat in house is extremely naive. And I’ll tell you this: most of the people I know DON’T care that Europeans eat horsemeat and don’t have a problem with shipping it over there. And we all know that it’s only the protesters that get heard, not those who are indifferent to the situation. I imagine that the majority of Americans who don’t agree with eating horsemeat are mostly horse owners and/or animal activists in some form–don’t forget that most Americans don’t own horses, and a lot of them don’t even like them.
Most of the people you know clearly don’t reflect America as a whole, because every single poll shows that Americans don’t want horse slaughter to be legal. I’ve NEVER seen a poll come out any other way.
I don’t want to have to worry that any horse I ever owned may end his life as a sandwich, nor do most Americans. Dogs and cats are eaten in other countries, too – should we shut down all the animal shelters and replace them with slaughterhouses?
I don’t why my reply post to you went where it did…it was a reply to your last 3 posts.
It only allows so many “tiers” of replies and then they just go to the end. It’s a pain that way.
I wanted to comment on the next comment but the link was missing…
Sure, this country receives much food imported from outside countries. Are you not a label reader? Are you aware of the practices that other countries use for for growing and processing food in their country? Are you aware that many countries utilize things like pesticides and other inert ingredients that are banned from use in this country? Do you think people here in the US only read labels because of where it came from for support of this country? NO! It should have everything to do with what practices that country of origin has in the raising of and the processing of that food. Mexico is known for having food contaminated with ecoli. Why? because they tried spreading (processed) human waste on their (human food) production fields. A practice never imagined used in this country. Just as our horses should not be sent for the dining of foreigners. If they knew what was in that horse flesh they would not eat it. This country has enough poor food practices that need cleaning up. Adding to that horse flesh would be just another one that would not be regulated properly or done in a manner that would put money and profit ahead of moral conduct. Looking at the mass cattle, fowl, swine production farming practices should be sample enough. And lastly, the culture of this country does not eat horse meat. It is considered unethical. If you move to this country from a country that does eat horse flesh, then you are buying into changing your culture to that of this country. That goes for more than just what you eat. People need to become more responsible in what they eat because money dictates too much for those who make food available to the mass public. I think there is changes coming but not soon enough unless people take that responsibility into their own hands. That includes people of other countries.
Totally agree with you showhorsegallery! I don’t see the problem with horse slaughter or with the consumption of horse meat. To me the only “good†that has come from the slaughter ban is that the problem of over production has been forced to the surface. Other than that I have seen more suffering than good.
It becomes very difficult to discuss a situation intelligently, much more for the purpose of finding solutions when one or either side does not possess facts.
There is no “ban” on slaughter in the US. There is no ban on horse slaughter for human consumption in the US; the funds for inspections are either approved or disapproved every budget cycle by Congress. There are some states that ban horse slaughter for human consumption, CA, TX, IL for example…but those are state bans. However, CA bans HCHS yet has some of the most notorious KBs, holding areas and auctions (just read Joe at TBFriends) or research how many KBs have been cited or prosecuted since the law went into effect.
So please, let’s keep with the facts. If we all don’t, the discussion is doomed.
So we’re talking semantics here? It’s either allowed or it’s not allowed. Even if it is technically legal, if there is no budget for inspections and you can’t do slaughter without an inspector it is effectively illegal.
There is a reason that horses are being shipping for slaughter out of the country and not being done in state. And it has to do with the laws in US.
Semantics?!?! As oppossed to law?! …and derilict of fact?!?! Because you support HCHS?
See this is what brings down you protrolls down time after time. The rub is that you and you ilk control the current staus quo (redundant).
Your post is shit. Your post doesn’t have anything. Your post is more stupid.
I just chuckle at your handle “showhorsegallery”. What a flaming, fucking (that’s right…fucking flaming) hoot!
So much much “art”…non-living….art?!?!? You are stupid, uneducatable and the reason why there are laws pending. Why? Because people continually don’t do right by their children, their property or the animals in their possesion.
But please, continue to dress up the pig and take it to church…your fellow worshipers will be happy to continue to drink the koo-laid.
You are a jerk.
Next word dick dance is? POS!
I forgot to add…the equines that went to Canada, Mexico, Asia and off-shore (and ain’t that a pretty picture) went before and after the closure of the last three sacntioned HCHS plants in the US. Slaughter for horses in the US still continues without payout to the supplier.
What don’t you understand? Slaughter doesn’t fix the the price of a good horse and certainly doesn’t justify the death via HCHS of a stolen horse. WHAT DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND?!?!?
If any breeder, trainer or owner relies on HCHS (knowing the drug issues and cruelty), they are nothing more than the problem with the world and it’s peoples. In fact, they then become the problem with the world.
Dress it up, sweetie…dress up the ugly and tell me it’s Chanel.
In an ideal world, I’m fine with horse slaughter. I have no qualms with people eating horse meat that is properly prepared (you know, none of those medicines labeled “not for use on food animals” in their system… ew.)
However, our world is not ideal, and I haven’t read many reasonable propositions that would make our large slaughterhouses more equine-friendly. There have been improvements in the slaughter of livestock in general, but there are still cruelty issues at most of those big plant-style slaughterhouses. If cattle and pigs have still have issues (and they do), how can you fit horses into that scheme? They are big, tend to be more panicky than cattle, and have a different shape than other livestock (that long neck can cause issues).
I love the idea of local butchers where people can take their livestock and be assured they are properly killed. Unfortunately, in a world where many are starving, low cost methods of getting food to people are usually going to win the day. Horse meat is more of a rarity and still considered a high-end meat in other countries, so that’s probably why those types of butchers can exist in other areas. There is also a longer history of horse use in places like Europe, which generally helps their welfare overall. In the U.S. where people don’t eat horse meat and think it’s weird/gross and where there is also less widespread education and concern for horses, there is going to be a struggle to make that same situation work.
Again, I don’t have a problem with slaughter in an ideal world, however, I’m not convinced we can minimize the suffering to the point I’m okay with legal slaughter in the U.S. I just don’t trust our government to regulate it well. Plus there are a lot of people out there who see little reason to spend resources on animal welfare when we have a huge human welfare problem as well.
I also don’t think there has been a massive increase in horse suffering since slaughterhouses in the U.S. were shut down, but I do understand the cruelty that occurs on double decker rides to the border. I don’t have the solution, so until I hear one that convinces me we can slaughter horses with minimal cruelty, I’m against it.
It may be useful to check out http://www.defendhorsescanada.org. This organization has the updates on slaughter activity and legislation.
We (Canadians) slaughtered over 100,000 horses last year. Our most notorious slaughter house, Natural Valley, was finally closed down due to the efforts of activists. NV was so sloppy and brutal, 1/3 of deadbolt hits to the horse’s heads missed. This left the horses unstunned before being hoisted onto a meat hook. NV employees were breaking legs, dismembering, gutting and skinning while horses were conscious. An investigator found a foal in the yard whose head had been run over by a truck tire. The bruising showed the foal was still alive during this. Guess it fell off the ramp, and the good ol’ boys had them some fun. We used to have an NP organization that routinely attended to animals that fell off the ramp, and went looking for the rarely present vet. Naturally, they got harassed, then barred, from the slaughter yards.
Another factor in shutting down NV was the gross environmental pollution from the slaughter process.
It’s impossible to commercially slaughter and maintain humane standards. In order to keep a huge industry running and show significant profits, you have to move animals through quickly. So many carcasses a day = $$$$ If you want to see what the process looks like, there are lots of videos on YouTube.
Canada’s Food Inspection Agency just announced a new law: horse owners wishing their animals to become “part of the food chain” must keep written records of all vaccs, meds and illnesses for 6 months before sending to slaughter, or a facility likely to send to slaughter (e.g. auction). It looks like the auctions, kill buyers and slaughter plants will also have to have those records available. The law comes into effect July 31st. Will it help discourage irresponsible ownership? I hope so. I think in some cases, it will deter owners from sending to auction. I believe it will also bring on a thriving market in falsified documents. What do you think?
I have strong personal feelings about horses. I think it’s as immoral to eat them as it would be to eat a domestic dog. They’ve served us for thousands of years. However, some people don’t hold to that belief. Some people eat dogs. Let’s face it, human trafficking is big business, too. Sexual slavery and black market organs are thriving. Many people use and sell their children for porn and even snuff. Perverts go on child sex cruises. In the Bible, people sold their kids, and females of any age into slavery and prostitution. Humans have a very wide definition of morality. I strongly feel all of the above activities are symptoms of the same disease—exploitation of trust and destruction of the innocent. Even of the sacred. Allowing whoever has the power, money and psychopathic bent to determine what is expendable. The article we started with calls these beings, “unwanted.” Unwanted by someone(s) whose moral centre will never meet mine. My moral centre is pretty wide.
However, I like what the European writer said. If someone wants to slaughter their companion, they must lead it to the butcher, stand there and hold it through the process. They can bear the blood and betrayal on their own soul. I still think it’s morally wrong. But at least the person is not involving the rest of us in the betrayal. I wouldn’t have to live with the anxiety of knowing this weekend is auction, and trucks will be passing through my neighborhood bearing terrified horses and leaking blood. I live near a race track, and get sick to my stomach when I see the kill truck.
During the Olympics, it was illegal to spread information deemed “political.” We couldn’t put out posters about the desperate situation for slaughter bound horses in BC, or even ask for rescue donations. All that nice figure skating took place on the same grounds as a race track that has a significant kill rate. TB sport horses are not desirable here. Everyone wants a WB. The turf club cut off its funding to local TB rescues a couple of years ago, leaving them in dire straits. It’s clear this was because having rescues provides too much info to the race fans about what the trucks signify. It’s all big business, and it ties together.
I’m not one of those activists who’s never seen what I’m ranting about. I’ve been involved in several sectors of agriculture and animal industries. I started out idealistically, wanting to make a nice living with horses and dogs. It became clear through experience it’s damn hard to do. I neutered my top notch show dogs when I discovered they were carriers of a genetic illness. Big investment down the drain. Don’t even get me started on smiling vets who test new drugs on terminally ill animals, while billing the hopeful owners. I shut up to keep my little job. That industry is a topic for another time.
I have no problem with subsistence hunting of deer, caribou, etc. I’ve eaten fresh meat many times. It was killed humanely, and the animal had not a trace of trust for the hunter. It didn’t have thousands of years of domesticity bred into in its genes.
As things stand in Canada and the US, horse owners divorce themselves from the process by sending “unwanted” horses to auction. As Fugly keeps saying, they divorce themselves from any responsibility at all by breeding undesirable horses and not training them. If you can just “send it to auction,” you can shut off your mind and emotions at that point.
I don’t think you can change human nature. You can do some good by educating. But given the nature of our society, change has to be legislated into law. That means shutting down the slaughterhouses, and making it law that owners must take singular, personal responsibility for euthanasia or slaughter.
“During the Olympics, it was illegal to spread information deemed “political.†We couldn’t put out posters about the desperate situation for slaughter bound horses in BC, or even ask for rescue donations. ”
What the HELL…really? It was ILLEGAL???
Yep. Vancouver temporarily changed its bylaws. You wouldn’t want to challenge this. We’ve spent $1 billion on security. I faced literally battalions of cops just getting around my neighborhood. On foot, on horseback, on bikes. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/07/23/bc-vancouver-olympics-bylaw.html
Betcha thought I made that up to be sensational
Pamela Anderson helped PETA get around the law. I knew she had to be good for something, even if I’m not a big PETA fan: http://www.moejackson.com/2010-pamela-anderson-protests-for-peta-2010-winter-olympics-0301?page=0,1
I just think that restricting the normal freedom of speech a person is entitled to in order to host a sports event without drama is CRAAAAAZY! Wow. Of course, it is Canada and you don’t have the U.S. Constitution but I always thought of Canada as at least as free as the U.S. if not more so with some things (like gay marriage).
I keep seeing this “Constitution” thing as if you are the only people in the world with free speech!
Cathy, we are not all knuckle dragging, wife beating societies, you know!
I live in a constitutional monarchy yet my right to freedom of speech is every bit as protected by law as is yours, sometimes even more so!
No one said that. I merely observed that other countries do not necessarily have the exact same rights we have in America. They clearly don’t. You would never see that kind of ban in the U.S.
Whether it’s the UK or the US or even China…the paper that holds the rights is dependent upon the humans (government) upholding the rights.
When it comes to the Olympics, it is very dicey. Shouldn’t be, but it is.
Common, Cathy~ The Olympics are nice and pretty and part of that perfect world. Wouldn’t it be such a shame to tarnish that beautiful picture before the unknowing world?? Image is everything. Hide what is ugly. So they make it illegal and that will end that.
Temporary bylaw changes in cities hosting the Olympics are pretty common. Beijing, for example, made it temporarily illegal for restaurants to sell cat and dog meat because they didn’t want western tourists ordering it by mistake, getting upset and screaming about the barbaric Chinese all over the internet.
I like the idea that if you wanted slaughter you should take the horse to a local butcher and have to stay with it muh more than comercial slaughter. Within the UK there is very little if any horse slaughter for human consumption, most of the meat bound horses are shipped to mainland Europe for slaughter. There are strict regulations about the transport such as how many hours they can travel before a break is required etc but even this doesn’t prevent horrible injuries occuring.
It used to be that you would call then local hunt kennels and they would come and shoot the horse and remove the carcas, usually for free as they then fed it to the hounds, however due to European legislation the majority of the small slaughter houses and the hunts were no longer viable as they weren’t able to make the upgrade (all health and safety changes, not humane ones) and so this sort of option is no longer available.
Alongside the debate on the method of slaughter is the options for disposing of the carcase at the end – it costs a lot to have a horses body cremated and in the UK there are quite strict regulations on buriel which makes it expensive to have a horse euthed and then disposed of. Again this used to be a sevice provided by the hunts which they cannot offer any longer.
Treasure~ I love you and stand by what you wrote.
Awwww Wannabe, thanks. Some days this world hurts too much. I need to rant to just be able to endure people. I’m one of those personalities who identify excruciatingly with Nature.
Re: hunt clubs that would fox your horse. It wasn’t always euthanasia by bullet. Which I agree with. They’d sometimes electrocute it. Author Jane Smiley wrote a, “So what?” pro-slaughter article regarding how this was done to her childhood pony. I don’t think I’ll enjoy one of her novels again.
http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/why-horse-slaughter-is-necessary/
Re: Vancouver Olympics and Canadian freedoms. Hmmm, well, we’ve not had a Revolution of Independence. We’re a British colony. Freedom of speech and pursuit of happiness are things others assume we have, but don’t. We don’t do things out loud. Laws are passed quietly, untidy people and situations are frozen out in that English way. E.g. I saw no notification that City Council was voting on the postering matter. Your national motto: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Ours: Peace, Order and Good Government. It’s an entirely different mindset.
Did you know we had slavery here until about 10 years before US abolition? And that the famous Underground Railroad ended like this: even the Canadians who didn’t take ex-slaves as slaves (if you follow that) wouldn’t give them jobs or farming implements. They starved. Most returned to the South, saying, “Better the devil known.” That’s why our Black population is soooo tiny. Despite the UR, you just don’t meet their descendants. Which is why, besides Joni and Neil, our music mostly sucks ;-D. If you’re interested, read “The Book of Negroes” by Laurence Hill. We did NOT learn this in school.
Did you know a lot more people died in the Holocaust than was necessary? Certainly, there was lag time everywhere between the beginning of persecution and countries welcoming refugees. In Canada’s case, our lag time was extended because our head Immigration official said, “One Jew is too many,” and barred the gate. A good percentage of our populace are the cowards who ran North when the Revolution was firing up. They were called Loyalists to the Crown. In your country: traitors. Benedict Arnold is our hero, Paul Revere a twisted alarmist. The only Tea Parties we have up here, are just that. Freakin’ tea and crumpets.
We don’t have a Federal Disabilities Act. Each province/municipality can treat disabled people any way they like. And oh, they do. Things like building/transportation/sidewalk accessibility are so hit and miss, no one knows where they can and can’t go. Some gov’t buildings that hold services for disabled people don’t have ramps. Or they have stairs to the washrooms. I am not making this up. In some cases, attending Olympic events was impossible for the physically disabled. Apparently traveling around with a Service Animal is a nightmare.
A big chunk of our taxes feed queen Lizzie’s polo ponies and create the British medical system—far superior to ours. Yes, we have “free” healthcare. But again, it’s administrated by provinces and municipalities. Vancouver had a big whack of health funding cut from its city clinics a few months ago. Part of the Olympic debt. You may be able to SEE a GP, but good luck getting necessary tests. Apart from MDs and nurses, most of our hospital staff are minimum wagers.
Freedom of Press? Our main news source, the one most popular with Canadians, is the “Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.” It’s gov’t funded and gov’t run.
For the Olympics, Vancouver opened some homeless shelters and shoved folks into them right quick. Big surprise: these same shelters are closing in a month or two, once the Paralympics are over.
Enough ranting, I’ve missed my lunch!
I wish more people would understand that less jobs and less people having homes=less homes for horses. I knocked off the hibernation dust off my two 08 geldings yesterday and reminded them they are well behaved on the ground. It doesn’t take much time!
I have a friend who had her first foal last year, not by design but because she bought a mare that was OOPS in foal. She messaged me one day when he was about four months old and said she didn’t get why people didn’t train their foals since she only spent about 15 minutes a day on hers and he tied, clipped, lead nicely, picked up his feet for the farrier, etc. I said, well, but you actually did it. Many people don’t. There are easy foals and tough foals but 15 regular minutes a day will get them all trained to do those basics. It’s just making a commitment to actually do it at least 5 or 6 days a week.
Heck, you don’t need to spend even that mkind of time to train a foal correctly. I spent maybe 15-20 minutes a week actually training my colt from the time he was 4 months old to the time he was started under saddle at 3. Some weeks, I didn’t do anything with him other than feed him.
Having said that, by the time he was 5 months old (I bought him at 4 months), he stood tied, picked up his feet for cleaning an the farrier, would load on a trailer, led, and clipped. At 1 year, he was taught to ground drive. At two, I thought him to lunge and wear tack. We also ponied on trail rides and he was asked to tote the kids around the yard, with me leading him, helmeted kids, and a side walker if it was necessary. He never game a lick of trouble.
He’s now four, and going walk/trot very nicely under saddle. He has been out on trail rides. He’s kind, well behaved, and friendly. It’s only been the last two months that I’ve really stepped up his training to 4-5 days a week.
the number of youngsters who are weaned but never had a halter on – why wait until the foal is big enough to cause a problem before tackling all these things, much better to get them used to this right away and you’ll have much less bother later on
Boy, is this true!!
Case in point – my 4 y.o. TB, who I got as an “unwanted” 3 y.o. – untrained, ungroomed, just standing around burning hay and looking like a horse by committee (he’s a little conformationally challenged). After six months with me, though – and mind you, he still isn’t under saddle – he’s the darling of the barn, considered a shining star etc. The lesson in this is that taking the time to put good nutrition, good groundwork, and good grooming in can really pay off, even if you haven’t gotten to the heart of the training yet. I count my lucky stars every day that he came my way.
And as far as the unemployment comparison — definitely hit the nail on the head there! I work somewhere that has almost a dozen open positions, from entry level to director level, and we just aren’t getting candidates. I have to wonder if these 10-12% unemployment figures are all coming out of the banking industry, and that’s why those of us in other sectors can’t seem to hire!?!?
I think it’s that jobs/employees are badly distributed. Where are you in the country? One of the adaptations some people may need to make is moving to where jobs exist, rather than hoping more jobs become available where they are.
Also consider that the people who got laid off recently were usually the lowest performers at their workplace. So yes, there’s huge unemployment, but it’s mostly (not all, but mostly) the least employable people. I’ve heard this from a number of places now, they’re flooded with resumes but can’t find anyone worth hiring. So all of you out there who are worth hiring, just keep working at it, they’ll notice you eventually, and be very glad they did.
(My personal recommendation for finding a job: Volunteer for a charity or non-profit. Guess who they like to hire? That’s right, the people who have volunteered for a while and proved that they’re good workers. More than half of my coworkers started as volunteers. Even if they don’t hire you, it’ll keep your skills sharp and look great on a resume. I’m not talking about filling sand bags either – whatever your profession is, there are charities that need it – they have HR, Accounting, Marketing, IT, graphic designers, customer accounts, etc. just like everyone else.)
That’s very good advice! I will say that I know people – quite a few – whose entire DEPARTMENT got let go, so it definitely wasn’t just the low performers. Jobs are being outsourced overseas and a lot of people are genuine victims.
Please don’t think that most unemployed people are unemployable. Here in New York i have many, many friends (educated, hard working and smart) who have been laid of in the last year or so.
I was the most productive employee in a union run art department of a major newspaper. We were sold and the new company immediately let 9 of us go last year. I only had 13 years with the company and many people had 20 or more. My managers told me that i would be the last person they would choose to let go but it was a union issue and there was nothing they could do. NOW the company has a department full of uneducated morons whose parents got them their jobs right out of high school.
But i was ok. Since i have always worked 2 jobs, my other job immediately offered me as many hours as i wanted and i finally applied to graduate school. I am getting my masters degree in Library and Information Studies! I hope to work in the public library system and teach computer literacy to teens and adults. CANNOT wait to be part of the solution to help my community!
Thank you for making that point Fugly, I’ve worked at the same place for almost two years now…and just got laid off last thursday. I wasn’t the low performer, but because I’m still through a temp agency, I was one of the first to be laid off. I kinda took offence to that remark!
Slow to respond… one of those weeks. I’m in Central – almost Southern – California. The expensive part. Which of course makes it extra hard to hire people, because no one can afford to live here. And yet — people do live here, and even own horses here, on “normal” salaries.
But I do think a lot of the currently unemployed folks will either need to consider relocating or will end up doing some form of retraining/ additional skills acquisition, in order to become re-employed. What I hear over and over is that there are lots of applicants but not enough with the right skills.
…I had something else to say and have totally forgotten what it was. Oh well
If you want to have a cute little dream that’s in reality a back breaking money pit, open a coffee shop. No horses will be bred, starved or hurt. You’ll become disillusioned and poor, and ready to scuttle back to your 9 to 5 just as quickly.
LOL so true…it’s like all these people who start their own business to have more time for themselves. Um, people with your own business – please raise your hand if it has resulted in having more time for yourself!
Um, I wrote the above commentary instead of eating dinner…
Funny that should come up. I started working at our local coffee shop in a very small town. The owners have had it now going on their second year (we were just talking about this yesterday). They said they are doing okay with it. But! they are open to suit their needs of a young family, which includes but not limited to no Sundays, closed at 3:30 daily and fun live entertainment Fridays. The more I work there the more I wish to have my own coffee shop. It’s all in what you make it, I think.
Training,exactly the reason the Trainers Challenge was started!This year we will try to do some mythbusting ,besides the crop of youngsters we also have 2 untrained 20 year old Arabians courtesy of the “lead ‘em and breed ‘em” mentality and the bay roan Mustang mare,Rioja,from the Three Strikes Ranch debacle.This event has turned into a great showcase for the trainers and is a helluva start to finding a trainer for a person that would like to interview several in one day!
I LOVE YOUR TRAINER’S CHALLENGE! I wish more rescues would do it. So cool about Rioja! Hearing those stories TOTALLY makes our work at Three Strikes worth it.
OK, so the lack of training seems to be identified as a major source of unwanted horses.
What are YOU,the people criticizing everyone elses mistakes, doing about it ? ( besides whining on this site).
Granted, not everyone has the ability to house another horse let alone the ability to properly train a horse. But that doesn’t mean you can’t set up a “training fund” and raise money that would allow your local rescue to send untrained ( less likely to be adopted) horses out for training with a reputable trainer.
You can talk to local trainers and try to convince them to offer discunted training for horses adopted from your local rescue, which in turn can be great promotion for the trainer’s. With just a little bit of thought and effort ( perhaps more effort then required to type on your keyboard) there is a lot that CAN be done to get these horses the trainng they need to make them more adoptable and end up in forever homes. People just have to be willing to do more then complain about all the wrongs everyone is doing.
I had just moved to Mn as a no name nobody shortly before the MHARF hosted their first Trainer’s Challenge. I was fortunate enough to be chosen for both of the Trainer’s Challenges so far and hope to participate again this year.
The results from my participation : I don’t “train” for the final competition, so I don’t place well at the competition, but the horses I participated with have raised over $3500 for the recue in adoption fees ( highest adoption bid the first year and second highest the second year). Both horses are in wonderful loving homes, being used and adored by their adopters. The adopters still keep me updated about life with their ‘unwanted’ horse. It’s been a very rewarding personal experience for me.
Another result of participating with MHARF’s Trainer’s Challenge: In preparing to start on my third season here as a no name / nobody/ unknown, I’ve had to create a waiting list for new clients that want to send horses to me this Spring for training. All of my open Spring slots are filled before I can even get started ( no indoor facilities / Mn weather) and I’m still getting inquiries/ requests. Other then business cards, I’ve done no self advertising.
Not all, but the majority of my new clients either followed the Trainer’s Challenge training blogs, attended the actual Challenge, or have been talking to people that did.
There’s no question in my mind, that my participation in MHARF’s Trainer’s Challenge is directly responsible for my current waiting list of new clients.
I also have sold horses, and have a clinic scheduled at a local boarding farm this Spring, that can be connected to my participation in the Trainer’s Challenge.
So, now everyone has a basis to do something beyond pointing fingers. If you can’t help with housing or training, you can raise money to pay for training. You can speak to local trainers and educate them on the possible benefits to them from becoming involved with their local rescue, be it free or discounted training, giving clinics, etc….
Recently I was made aware of a person searching craig’s list for a horse. After receiving an offer for discounted training for both her and any horse adopted from MHARF, a MHARF horse will be going to a new home this coming weekend.
It’s a winning situation for the horse, the rescue, the newbie, and even me the trainer. Even at discounted fees ( which I felt was the least I could do after all I have benefitted from my association with MHARF), I believe I will get any loss back 10 fold through personal satisfaction as well as increased exposure and business.
So, now that you all are armed with this type of factual information, will you put it to good use ?
Disclaimer: I realize some here are already doing all they can to help. But many just sit back and complain about what ‘everyone else’ SHOULD be doing. Which one are you?
Good post. I am currently paying for training on a couple of rescue horses. I wish more of the people who blindly send money to rescues they know nothing about would, instead, pay for a month of training for a local rescue’s horse. That would be so helpful!
I have a friend who got into horses as a business about 10 years ago. Her broodmares produced nice, but not spectacular foals. She has spent nearly every dime she has on their care. They look great, well fed, etc. Each year, she rebred the mares, sure that her current foal would sell. It didn’t. This continued for a number of years, each year, she was sure the foal would sell before the next was born. A few did. Then the market crashed. Now, she is sitting on 15-20 horses. Of those horses, which are now 4,5,7,8, maybe even 9 year olds she bred – 1 is fairly well broke, 3 you can steer around the round pen, and the rest can only be led. She works full time to support them with little time to train them. I can see how this can easily happen to others. She stopped breeding them 3-4 years ago, which was a very smart move. She expected them to sell as foals and they didn’t and now she has no time or money to get them trained, which she could do herself if she wasn’t working several jobs to support them. There is no extra money to pay someone else to train them. In this economy, she fears someone will buy them and then neglect them, so she is afraid to sell too. So, she goes to work, spends all her money on their care, and they aren’t getting trained. She meant well, but got in over her head. I can see how easily this is could happen to others.
I can too. What she needs to find is a young trainer who will work with them for a cut of the profit when they sell – a substantial profit, like 50%. It is possible to find a young up and coming trainer who will do that. It’s just a challenge to find the right one, but not impossible.
Aside from training, which you can give a horse some chance for around $350 for 30 days (at least that’s my trainer’s price) people can do simple things when they sell their horses, you know like cleaning them. It drives me insane when I see ads for horses and the poor thing is covered in mud, mane and tail a mess, and they aren’t even looking at the camera. I’m sure if the horse knew the importance of those photos they’d try to clean themselves up. It’s sad.
I bought my OTTB at the auction. She was clean, with her mane and tail brushed. They rode her through (although she had no real stearing) It gave me some hope of “I can work with that.” And two years later with a trainer and 75 days on her she’s a proper (almost) little dressage horse.
When a horse is covered in mud, and you can’t even get a hatler on them, that’s just sad. Shame on you.
http://www.wildponybeast.blogspot.com
I’ve actually been considering offering a service to help people improve their CL ads. Gather information about the horse, write the ad for them, take the photo, and possibly even groom the horse if need be. I can write and I can take a decent photo, which is more than can be said about a lot of CL posters! I could also offer advice on screening new homes (for those that care).
I could earn some extra income and help horses find better homes at the same time!
You should let us know if that works! If nothing else, it could be a good thing that people could volunteer to do. I wonder how many horses would sell instead of going to the kill if they were properly advertised? It may also be a good side job for people who are unemployed right now.
I know it is just one person’s opinion, but I really think Holland’s article came pretty close to hitting the nail on the head. The whole “one man’s trash is another man’s treasure” thing. Selling a horse is hard work, marketing it appropriately, making sure that it is up to snuff for it’s intended job (both training-wise and physically). Nothing like thinking your horse in good shape and then a prospective buyer getting it vetted and having a few red flags pop up. Next to nothing on CL is either an act of desperation or sheer laziness. I’m sure there are plenty of heartbreakers on CL, but I’d put my money on the latter in most cases.
As to the training issue, Fug’s hit it again: people do not seem to want to invest money in something to make it better. Why? Because the payback is ‘out there’ in the future, not right now. I have my 16 yo TB eventer for sale because I am broke. We got dumped with 3′+ of snow, he hasn’t been ridden since January, so I pulled his ad. He is out of shape, scruffy as a Mustang, and certainly does not look like a $15,000 horse. I am not going to lower his price because he looks like a $3,000 horse right now, because I know I can put two months of conditioning and shows into him and he’ll look and go like a $15,000 horse again. I’ve already spent Lord-knows-how-much on him, what’s a little more at this point.
Also, I would LOVE to make it my life’s work to retrain OTTBs to new careers. Some people I truly admire do that (very successfully, I might add), but I do not have the financial foundation on which to do that. Can you imagine trying to get a small-business loan for that proposition? HA!!! So I will plug along with my schoolmaster and try to find him a nice adult ammy that will love him and learn from him, and then go from there.
Not sure what I meant with that “next to nothing” bit. Anyhoo, I guess it should read more like:
Selling on CL is [rest of post from here...]
I know it…I would like to have a business of retraining old broodmares under saddle, but you could never make it actually MAKE money…I’d just like some rich person to fund it out of the goodness of their heart, LOL!
Sorry, but I doubt there will be very many people willing to shell out $15,000 for a 16 yo OTTB. I also don’t understand why your horse looks like crap because of the snow. My two look great every winter, even the grey. Just because riding time is limited in cold climates doesn’t mean they have to look rough. Spend more time grooming, for Pete’s sake. Doesn’t cost a thing.
Well, in all honesty, yeah he had been groomed and he is clean and shiny but he is not clipped, his mane isn’t pulled, and he is certainly not fit enough to gallop around a Training or Preliminary event right now. He looks like a scruffy well-fed pasture puff, not quite the schoolmaster event horse that he is. I don’t have access to an all-weather riding arena or indoor, so he got the time off and is not as fit and trim as he was last fall. Like Fugs is saying, time and training will make an older horse worth a lot more than a younger horse with no training, even if not as mush as I am asking (PS key word: asking).
Check it out-CL win! I hope all the people posting thin/wormy horses for sale attend:
http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/grd/1633835648.html
Wish I saw more if these ads, and I think this is a great idea in general
I’d love to send our locaL AC officers there!
WHY OH WHY THE CAPITAL LETTERS ARRRRGGGHHH.
Another thing that will help to sell a horse is to truly train the horse as a solid trail horse. There is a shortage of those. Far too many advertised “trail horses” have not really been out much or go fine in a group but not by themself or are spooky on the trail or jig or whatever the problem may be. There is a market for the truly solid, sound, fun trail horse that can ride happily in groups or alone.
sagebeasties.blogspot.com
oldmorgans.blogspot.com
So very, very true! I only trail ride now, after 4-H I never had what it takes to show beyond a fun show. Just not my cup of tea and the call of the trail was too strong. I have only acquired one horse that was truly a good trail horse when I got him (and he was free-imagine that!) All my others were sold to me as trail horses but needed a LOT of wet saddle blankets before they were truly trustworthy trail mounts I would feel comfortable facing any situation on alone. I see so many people marketing horses that didn’t cut it in the show ring as trail horses and there is so much more to it than being able to get a saddle on them and go. I have also turned down quite a bit of money for a couple of my trail horses by people who have seen what they are capable of, much more than I paid for them. Why would someone offer me $3,500 for a grade TWH that I paid $500 for? Because they have seen him hop out of the trailer with confidence, picket alone quietly all night, and came across him tearing up the trail like he owns it- paying no mind to other horses, ATVs and traffic while negotiating steep hills, water and obstacles with ease. Definitely a market for that kind of horse and not so easy to come by.
Just a quick question. With all of the inspections and registeries in Europe do they have an unwanted horse problem due to overbreeding like we have in the US? I know they eat horsemeat but if they didn’t slaughter to eat, would they have a surplus like we do here? Honest question as I really don’t know. I have always advocated breeding only what you need/ can sell and only breeding best to the best- and regulating that through registry inspections. I happen to have one of the USDF’s top ten Dressage Sport Horse Breeders practically in my back yard and I know he only breeds what he needs and his reputation is widespread and his horses are in HIGH demand because of if.
You know, the “in limited supply” concept is often lost on breeders (esp QH breeders) in the US. I always shake my head because a few stallion owners that I know keep fairly consistent limitations on their books. They produce a reasonable number of foals from decent mares every year. Their horses always bring good money as they go through the auctions, and they are great performers. I believe this is because they are consistently quality animals, and they are in limited supply. Guess what-if you are begging people to breed to your stallion, and producing enough foals that everyone can afford them, you are driving the eventual auction prices for your youngstock down!
Exactly!
That is one element I absolutely LOVE about the dressage world. Only the horses who deserve to breed pretty much are. You don’t see people scrambling to breed their unaccomplished, crappy little schoolmaster friend to an equally crappy stallion. Case in point: The two stallions at the farm that I ride at. The main breeding stallion is a drop-dead georgeous warmblood who came in seventh (I think) at the USDF National Young Horse Breeding Prospect Something or Other. Anyway, big title. The other is a young (4-ish) fresian stallion who is in training and is n-o-t breeding. Anyway, ranty rant, two georgeous specimens, most of the dressage world knows how to breed quality sport horses.
I agree. I’ve said many times – I’d be a fan of stallion approvals in EVERY breed. It’s just harder to do it in, say, Quarter Horses where you have so many different types. Warmbloods are pretty much all bred for jumping and dressage – it’s just easier to judge them against each other for the reason. Still, I don’t believe AQHA approvals would be impossible. Heck, make it a 10 point system just like it is to put an Appendix stallion in the regular book. That’ll weed out the crappy ones!
It’s not that there is NO unwanted horse problem in Europe, but there are well-run slaughterhouses and such, so supply doesn’t exceed demand as much. Newly approved stallions may get a lot of mares the first year or two so the breeder can see what the stallion’s babies look like… and if they don’t look good, many will go to slaughter, the stallion may be gelded etc. If the Europeans bred willy-nilly like folks in the US, and they didn’t have the slaughterhouses, they’d run out of room for their horses!
I don’t mind slaughter… the way they do it in Europe.
(To be fair, the economic troubles have made things worse for horses there, too… Some slaughterhouses are turning horses away, there are more neglected horses etc.)
You need to go and look at the ILPH site if you think that slaughter in Europe is humane….for a start, define “Europe”!
Horses taken from the old “Soviet Union” states and trucked, all the way across “Europe”, to slaughter in the toe of Italy without respite, without water, without feed. Pregnant mares giving birth along the way……horses with broken legs jammed in and held up by the others, til they go round a sharp bend and the horse goes down.
At the other end, the dead are hauled off by tractor, they are the lucky ones as the live ones are prodded with cattle prods….OK I am not going on, it is all up on video if you bother to search You Tube or look at the ILPH site, as said.
They are campaigning at the moment.
This is not a few years ago, this is NOW.
Slaughter in Britain is OK.
Slaughter in Europe?
Not so much!
A number of people in Belgium and surrounding countries breed specifically for meat. only. The Belgian, in it’s homeland, is eaten, not used. A couple of years back an estimated 5,000 were bred and 200 were registered.
The difference is that, as we see nothing wrong in eating horses, the animals that are eaten are not “waste” products but specifically bred for the market.
I can speak for Germany only – sure, there IS an unwanted horse problem here. But it seems to me that due to the fact that we actually have a law here, that regulates the breeding of animals in a certain way, it ain`t so massive as it seems to be in the US.
If your horse doesn`t meet certain standards (for confirmation, performance and parentage etc.) set by the (various) breeding associations, you`ll get no full registration papers for the foals. Foals/horses with none or only “half” papers (meaning, that only the stallion or, less often, only the mare is registered) are definitively NOT sought-after, will sell for far less money (if they`ll sell, the sale ads speak a certain language…), and, luckily, therefore are far less likely to be “made” than foals out of full approved parents.
What we got here is a fashion problem. You got a horse that is a “fashion breed” – it`s worth a lot. You got a horse that is a “non fashion breed” – hell, you`ll be lucky to get a few bucks for it, if it sells at all. No matter if it`s registered or not, if it has any accomplishments or not, heck, sometimes even if it`s trained or not ! Just because it is, let`s say, a Haflinger and not a Quarterhorse ! (for explanation: Haflingers are in Germany what QHs are in the US: pretty common.)
Just compare:
http://www.wittelsbuerger.de/westernbiz/verkauf/2010/schoeninger.htm (9000 Euro, that`s over 12000 $)
http://www.ehorses.de/Pferdeangebot.asp?id=165392 (1500 Euro, that`s 2000 $)
In the UK there are more horses available than can be sold but no where near as bad as in the US, while you do get some going for loan as companions etc you won’t find a ridable horse going free and the prices haven’t crashed anywhere near as badly. Aside from a lameness issue my mare is worth as much as I paid for her, if not a little more, now and I bought her about 18 months ago. I think part of this is because breeding is more expensive in the UK – there is nowhere near as much land available and it still costs a fair bit to buy. Having said that there are still horses being bred which can’t be sold – I know of a local stud who breed Friesians (we got out tb colt from them. lol.) who seem to have trouble selling as they have quite a few 2 & 3 year olds who have been for sale since weaning. These are gorgeous horses, mainly pure friesian or friesian/tb’s however they are very expensive compared to what else is available and they have no training. Their main stallion is absolutly gorgeous and has a fab temperment but they don’t ride anymore so he’s unbroken and they don’t get any of the horses out showing so no one knows about them and they have no accomplishments. Against that I know a local trainer who has a couple of young (9/10) kids who jump. She has 3 ponies from the same stud and if I’m ever in the position of needing a good pony I’ll be going to that stud because these ponies are out jumping and winning and are excellent advertisment.
Not sure where you are, but where I live (just above London) a horse was dumped on a piece of land just down the road. Half starved, but perfectly ridable.
Horses are being dumped every day in the UK, and if you think your unsound animal is worth anything, let alone as much as you paid, well, good luck with that!!
NOTHING is selling…of, maybe a few top of the line jumpers or dressage animals, racehorses, of course, but at street level?
Training, no training, does not matter, nothing is moving.
I agree that the term “unwanted horse” is a useless term coined to put a positive “spin’ on the “need” for horse slaughter. I think it would be a good idea to link the article to our posts and emails, but wonder if I would need some sort of permission from the author to do this?
Fugly, I think your equating “unwanted horse” with “unwanted employee” was a stroke of genius to show how foolish a term it is. As a currently unemployed person, I certainly hope someone will not think I need to be shipped off to slaughter – remember the Kurt Vonnegut novel and the movie with the actor Charlton Heston yelling “Soylent Green is people!!!!”
But as for the solution that we need to be retrained or be willing to relocate to find employment– well that’s not always feasible. Unlike horses, which can be shipped to new homes and owners, people have mortgages, family ties and responsibilities and retraining is expensive– especially if you don’t have a job to help pay for it, or like me are very close to retirement age. Though I’m not trying the coffee house route, I have started giving riding lessons and carriage rides as well as offering academic tutoring in my certified subject areas while I look for a position for the upcoming school year.
One good thing about the Internet, it does allow people to “find” horses they want, which would remain “unwanted” or at least without a permanent home. The Internet has been a great tool for some legitimate rescues, and sone illegitimate “rescues” to get the word out about particular horses.
Recently wthere was a story about how unwanted chihuahas were overflowing at CA shelters, and bingo– efforts sprang up to transport them to shelters and adoption groups in “chihuaha-starved” states — all because of the Internet.
Which leads me back to my original question, can I just link the article about “unwanted” horses to my email signature, or do I need permission from the author? I would be happy to try to spread the word that “unwanted horses” is a bogus concept.
I wish you well in your job hunt. A friend of mine – also over 50 and super over-qualified – just got a new job after looking since June of last year. So it does happen!
Fugs, you missed something here. There is a HUGE difference in what Dr. Lenz said and in what you are saying. Dr. Lenz said “unwanted horses are defined as those no longer wanted by their CURRENT owner.” This means that the current owner doesn’t want the horse, and he’s not saying that the horse is unwanted overall. I think you’re missing the point of what he’s talking about.
Overall, I think we all know that this isn’t going to work. Idiots are still going to over-breed, even when times are good. It’s why there has ALWAYS been a surplus of racing horses. Hell, I know a trainer who lives in my area who has a nice QH stud, decent bloodlines, and produces good reining foals. But they just aren’t selling because of the market. Yet he continues to breed the horses in spite of knowing his foals aren’t selling. People aren’t going to listen overall. I agree with making breed associations more responsible, but we also need to get the education out there. It’s time to stop snarking and start doing.
And here’s my biggest argument, and NO ONE has ever been able to answer this question besides those who have already done it.
Let’s say there are 10,000 unwanted horses each year in the State of Arizona that go to a slaughterhouse (I’m just using my own state as an example). Let’s say 10,000 people sign a petition to shut it down. So the slaughterhouse shuts down due to pressure. Suddenly, there are 10,000 horses that need homes. So, is each one of those 10,000 people who signed the petition going to take in one of those horses, and be willing to take in one horse each year? It amazes me how many people WON’T. They are satisfied with the slaughterhouse being shut down and are living in a fantasy lane where oh, now the horses will all get great homes! BULLSHIT.
Here in AZ, the amount of horses being released into the desert to “join up with the wild herds” is staggering. I know police officers who are dealing with more and more loose horses. These horses DON’T join up with the wild herds. They are domesticated and don’t know how to survive in the wild, the wild herds reject them, and therefore they end up dying of starvation. And let’s say they do end up joining up with the wild herds. Well guess what happens? We get overpopulation of wild horses in our area, and suddenly the gov’t is having to deal with that by killing off horses.
I’m sick and tired of the bleeding heart activists (you’re not one, Fugs) who will continue to bitch about animal conditions yet aren’t willing to go out there and take in those animals that need help. They also aren’t willing to volunteer at shelters or do anything to help the situation. SHUT UP AND PUT YOUR MONEY AND TIME WHERE YOU MOUTH IS.
See also my response to showhorsegallery.
“Fugs, you missed something here. There is a HUGE difference in what Dr. Lenz said and in what you are saying. Dr. Lenz said “unwanted horses are defined as those no longer wanted by their CURRENT owner.†This means that the current owner doesn’t want the horse, and he’s not saying that the horse is unwanted overall. I think you’re missing the point of what he’s talking about.”
I didn’t miss it at all. I was pointing out how ridiculous it is to characterize the horse as unwanted because ONE PERSON does not want it. That was exactly my point.
But I also don’t agree with the argument that you have to take a horse in because you oppose slaughter. No, if you oppose slaughter, your only responsibility is to provide proper care for your own horses and not starve, neglect or abandon. If someone opposes abortion, does that mean you have the right to drop a crack baby off at their house? Of course not. Why should the responsible people pay for other peoples’ irresponsible actions? I think that most people who oppose slaughter do contribute to rescues monetarily or help hands-on or take in the occasional rescue of their own, but I don’t feel like that’s mandatory. I don’t live in a fantasy world where they will all get great homes. I believe we need subsidized euthanasia just like we have for dogs and cats to clean up some of the current mess, as well as enforcement and real live PENALTIES for people who abandon horses. Abandoning horses is ILLEGAL. It’s time to crack down and start making it cost so much money and trouble that the cost of euthanasia looks welcome in comparison.
I agree with subsidized euthanasia of horses, but then we’ll get into the problem we currently have, which is people euthanizing perfectly healthy animals because they’re also “unwanted.” Plus, the current population problem with dogs and cats is not working with euthanasia…do you really think it will work with horses?
I absolutely think that people should put their money where their mouth is. Who’s going to fund the euthanasia? The gov’t definitely won’t, so are there any private organizations that will? Especially those organizations that are fighting for closure of slaughterhouses? I commend those vets and equine rescues who are volunteering their time and resources to get horses euthanized, but it’s not going to work over the long run unless there is some kind of funding to get it done. The majority of people that I know who are all up in arms about slaughterhouses and wild horse roundups would not be willing to go to an auction to “save” one that is bound for the KB when their current horse dies or is no longer rideable. Why? I really don’t know, but whenever I ask someone when they freak out about slaughter if they would be willing to go rescue a fugly, lame, unridable horse that’s in the kill pen at an auction to give it a good home, to “save” it, they clam right up and dance around the subject. Have you asked people the same thing? I equate it to Al Gore–he preached about going green and using solar energy, coal, recycling and various other methods to “save the planet.” Yet he lives in a gigantic mansion where electricity runs the place, he doesn’t conserve water, etc. If you’re going to bitch about it, then you need to practice what you preach.
I just took back my very first horse because she was being neglected and the owners couldn’t get her sold. I will never sell her again and she will be with me forever. But I find that I’m not in the majority, and very, very few people think the same way I do. Yes, we all SHOULD do it, but SHOULD and WILL are far different things.
I disagree that the government “won’t” fund euthanasia. The government funds all sorts of things it didn’t fund 25 years ago. It can fund euthanasia too. If there are really all these horses running loose, guess what, guess that’s a job for the government to clean up like any other threat to public safety. I’d rather see my tax dollars used for that than a lot of the silly, unnecessary shit we currently fund.
“Plus, the current population problem with dogs and cats is not working with euthanasia…”
Dogs and cats have litters, so a single unaltered bitch or queen can “replace” any euthanized animals a lot faster than a mare can.
A good way to get those numbers down would be to make “the miracle of birth” part of the regular school curriculum. Mom and dad might be less likely to breed Spot or Snowball if their kids react to the idea with horror. Baby animals are cute, but birth is unpleasant. I’ve played kitty-midwife before and from now on any pregnant strays that pop up are getting little kitty abortions.
Maybe where you live the government doesn’t fund euthanasia but there are plenty of places where the city or county does fund it, and the stray/abandonned animal population is small or nonexistant. Where I used to live, there was a law that cats were not allowed loose outside. If they were stray and impounded, you had to pay a fine to the pound and have them spayed/neutered to get them back… same as dogs. The pound euthanized animals after a couple of weeks of adoption time. Breed advocates could foster animals to buy them more time. There were no feral cats and very few stray dogs. So it does work in some places.
No Fugs, you are not wrong. Sadly I am well aware of the back story of this BS propaganda campaign for which Tom Lenz has been the point man. Anyone who has been to pipeline auctions understands this. This is a great description of the nature of the slaughter pipleine, which is for the most part not discriminating:
“The insidious tragedy of horse slaughter is that it targets whatever shakes loose.
Posted by Priscilla Clark at 8:07 AM”
The context of the comment can be found here:
http://tranquilityfarm.blogspot.com/2010/03/saving-jitterbug-jan.html
While I know your heart is in the right place, I think you have some flaws to your logic.
I’m against horses going to slaughter, because I believe there is absolutely no way we can make it humane for the horses. Our country is uniquely obsessed with getting rich as quickly as possible, with no real interest in who has to be punished to get there. With that mind-set, I don’t think that the very small scale slaughter houses that were described by the poster above in Europe would work here. Not when you can just buy a sluaghter house used with cows and shove as many horses as possible through. Can I fix this myself? No. I live in a condo in the middle of the city, I’m a student, I’m 22, a newlywed, and have approximately 100 bucks extra a month IF my car doesn’t die again IF I don’t have to purchase supplies for class IF a lot of factors come together. Not only that, but I have crippling health problems that mean I can’t actually be out in the sun. I too live in Arizona, so there is no way I can ride unless nocturnal horses with night vision exist. Why am I not allowed an opinion? Because I can’t spare any money if I want to feed my dog, cat, hermit crabs, hamster, husband and myself while keeping a roof overhead, electricity flowing, internet (required for classes) and other necessities? Because I can’t get a horse and house it on my patio?
My husband jokes that we can never have a yard. We were talking about it last night, in fact, and he said he knows if we had land that we would have several horses. I would own a fugly horse. I love geldings and mares that have plenty of personality. I enjoyed having horses to love on and feed, and I’d have a giant umbrella I could hide under and would love on the horses as much as I could. I love animals, and I love to help them. That’s why I tend to by ‘throw-away’ pets like the hamster or the hermit crabs or finches. Those are animals people buy so their kids can kill them, or they purchase them without thought. Hermit crabs live over 40 years if taken care of. Most people kill them off in a couple of weeks. That’s another topic I’m passionate about, heh.
I think if we feel that euthanasia is important for animals, then we certainly should rally for it. If enough people speak out, the government will start to change. Am I shouting and protesting and fighting for it? No. I’m not. But my reasons are related to the fact that every day I lose more and more function in my legs and hands and mind. It’s unfair to judge others for not stepping up if you don’t know the reason behind it. In a time like now where unemployment looms over many people, and families are struggling, it is unfair to make any assumptions that the people who are speaking up and signing those petitions and are sending as much as they can spare, whether it is five bucks or five hundred, don’t care enough.
It is not fair to assume that all of us who haven’t adopted horses haven’t done so because of a disconnect between ideals and willingness to practice. Some of us simply don’t have the means -finances or facilities- to be able to do so, and we know that to take in animals we could not properly care for would be contributing to the problem of excess animals, not helping to solve it.
Great post fugs. Where can I buy a front seat ticket for the Bitch Slap World Tour Bus?
IMHO, the problem with these “unwanted” horses is similar/essentially the same as it is with our dog and cat over-population problem, and both scenes are being compounded by the current state of the economy.
Starry-eyed visions of sweet and behaved kitties/puppies/stud colts that are oh so pretty, cuddly, disease- and injury-free, needing only convenient amounts of attention quickly fall by the wayside when the vet needs to be called or the price of hay/kibble whatever proves more than what was never budgeted for. Or after said animal is cooped up in the backyard/pasture for weeks at a time with minimal interaction, these people suddenly have a monster on their hands and wonder “how ever could this have happened???”
People are stupid and ignorant and the majority dont respect companion animals as being “beings” that need care. Lots of it. Most people cant even comprehend why they would pay someone else to help them or teach them how to manage their animals, because its out of their range of thinking. And by the time the problem escalates, it probably is out of their financial means to reverse the problem they have created.
Ranting aside though, I think we all see a pretty solid movement towards adoption of dogs and cats, and away from buying pet store pets, and the horrid truth of many BYBs and even “show” breeders is coming to light to the general public. We can keep doing our parts in educating the public about all of our animals’ plights, and hope it all keeps moving in the right direction. Slowly.
Please. Don’t lump show breeders in with the BYBs. Most are responsible. Responsibility doesn’t make headlines, or drum up contributions to humane orgs.
Just sayin’.
Ruthie
I just had to laugh, I have both a toothless old rescue AND a batshit panel jumping BLM mustang. (Formerly batshit, now giant puppy. Seriously, I thought mustangs were supposed to be small…
Also, Drea, right on on all counts! If that was how horses were treated for slaughter here in the States I would not have a problem with it. It sounds as humane as (and more environmentally friendly than!) taking a horse to the vet and having it euthanized, and then landfilled or cremated. Perhaps that would be possible here if there were fewer, better horses out there.
I’ll say it again – we need a fleet of butchers that come to your place. Mobile slaughter plants, so to speak. It wouldn’t guarantee humane conditions at the “farm,” but it would make life better for the future steaks.
Ruthie the carnivore
Adding a vote here for putting in some time to training the “unwanted” horse. I am on the e-mail list for horses available from New Vocations. I’m not in the market for a second horse and I am not particularly interested in trotting or pacing horses, which are half of what NV makes available, and the shipping costs would be more than the adoption fee in many cases, BUT … every time one of their emails arrives in my Inbox, I know that I’m going to get pictures and a full assessment of the selections du jour, complete with training and progress so far, suitability, etc. The adoption fees are also listed if you click on the name of the horse in the email, and the whole program looks to be very well organized and set up. Someone is putting in the time necessary to make these former “racers-pacers in training” into “pert near ready for the second career.”
New Vocations’ track record (heh heh) is pretty good. They’ve placed several thousand horses in new homes.
A horse that has DONE something and that has been assessed as being able TO do something more is worth. Simple Equinomics.
I drive by a place every day that has assorted four-leggeds in this large area. Donkeys, llamas, horses, ponies. They have added a round pen and there is a mounting block inside. Not sure if it’s a rescue or what, but someone is putting time and effort into working the rideables or making the not-so-rideables more so. Good for them.
And very good for the animals.
Why can’t you find a trainer? I’ve been training, off and on, since 1969. I do very very little anymore for many reasons but the big one is that I’m sick and tired of working with wonderful horses only to have them totally ruined inside of 6 months and it’s my fault! I insist on you taking lessons first on one of my lesson horses and then on yours when it’s ready. It doesn’t help.
Saw one of my former students at a trail ride. She wasn’t riding the horse I’d trained for her and her riding was terrible. I told her that I must not have taught her anything and she said, “This isn’t a lesson!”
Most people can’t ride a horse that’s had only a few years of riding. They need one that can fill in for them in all of their mistakes. They can’t even take a horse that’s had 90 to 120 days and not ruin them. How can they manage the horse with only 30 days.
Way back at the beginning I never even thought of taking a horse for more than 30 days. You’d get them walking, trotting fast and slow, cantering without trying to run off, stop and turn. Most people did all the training themselves.
Now days no one knows how to ride or knows that they don’t know anything or care much. They just want a horsie to ride down the trail and how hard can that be and why do I want to do all that work to just sit on a horse.
Anyway, I’ll only work with horses from very special people. I need to sell a couple of the ones I have but finding someone who I think will not ruin them is hard. It’s just all too frustrating.
Yes. This is a nice addition to what I was saying earlier about training. There are many people out there who expect a “30-day wonder” meaning it’s broke and will be forever. They don’t want to put money into more training or lessons. So then the horse goes out and is ruined quickly and the owner spreads the word that you were the trainer. That’s not good for your reputation.
So it’s easier and more cost effective (and rewarding) for trainers to work either with educated horse people or those willing to spend money (preferably educated and willing to spend money, haha). What do I get after breaking out a grade horse for a local owner who doesn’t know anything about horses? A headache and a broken heart when I see how the situation has turned out. It’s even worse when they try to take the 30-day wonder to a local show and spread the word that you were the trainer… Shoot, we used to have backyard “pros” lie and say they’d “trained” with us and they’d advertise that all around the local scene. What a headache that caused! Especially since we often hadn’t even met these people.
For these reasons, trainers have to be a little careful about who they let into the barn if they have enough money to pay the rent without them, haha. Reputation is about all you have in this country when it comes to horse training, and it’s extremely easy to ruin. Also, it’s extremely easy to go broke trying to be a pro, so that’s another reason to be a little particular about your clients = )
The majority of my business is spent rehabbing “problem” horses. The problem like you said is the owner not the horse. I will only work hands on with the owner and teach them the training process. Not only do both horse and owner improve but it also helps to keep the progress made if the owner knows who, what, when, where, and how. My biggest issue is getting people to understand consistency, that everything is black or white in the horse world and if you want to make a change you have to do it EVERY TIME no matter what. The problem is that people are not willing to spend the time to be the owner their horse needs. In our get it done now world people seem to have forgotten that good horses take time.
I love that approach. My mare could be spooky and difficult about things, but put her in the hands of an experienced horseperson who did NOT fight with her, and she would cooperate. That did nothing for *me* other than reinforce my negative feelings about myself. At one point I even consulted with a trainer and as soon as I said, “You need to work on BOTH of us, together,” she sent me away. Now this mare was NOT a basket case, we got along most of the time, but there were some places where we didn’t. It wasn’t a matter of her being unsafe for me to handle.
I ended up doing a lot of “retraining” on my own, consulting with the mare’s breeders by phone when I got stuck. They’d trained her a certain way and would tell me *exactly* how, so I could replicate it. E.g. I learned she was trained to self-load into a trailer, not be led in, and with time and patience, got her to be a happily self-loading horse again after stupidly putting her in the hands of someone who tried to bully her into the trailer… I used the EXACT words and gestures she knew from her breeders. For spooking, I just had to learn to read her better, and go out and look for reasonably controlled opportunities to deal with a spook.
My trainer would be thrilled if you wanted to learn together – in fact, she includes a free weekly lesson with training. Sadly, a lot of people don’t use it!
OT – on a training note – would people recommend sending the horse away to be done or having a trainer come to your place a couple of times a week for a couple of months? I have a 5 year old mare who was backed as a 3 year old and has been in and out of work since 4 (was backed an turned away). We have good walk and trot but I’m struggling teaching her canter due my confidence issues and so want a trainer to get this for her but am unsure which would be best (I know someone from each catagory, both of whom I like)
I think it would be best if you could put her in training somewhere that you could visit often. That way the trainer can work her consistently and you can still come out and learn with her once the trainer feels you’re both ready. I feel like a trainer can get a lot more accomplished (especially on a green horse) if they can work the horse daily. It’s a lot harder to make progress when the trainer has a ride, then you have a couple days with her, then the trainer comes back for a day, then you have another couple days with her. It’s a longer process because the trainer might have to spend half of the ride working out any kinks you might have caused (not what you want to hear, but that’s the way it usually goes).
This obviously depends on your skill level – if you are comfortable maintaining the horse between the trainer’s workouts, then just have someone come in three times a week. If you really want to make fast progress that will stick for the long term, I think your best bet is to put her with a trainer for a bit and take lessons (preferably with that trainer and sometimes on your horse) in the meantime. Obviously your pocketbook is a deciding factor as well = )
Well said Fugs! Nice article! You are exactly right! We need more people like you in this world and more people to help educate the public that are not aware of these issues. You dont have to own a horse to get the word out. My horse was someone elses trash and now he is my treasure and I love him so much and couldnt have found a better matched horse for me!
Somewhat OT, but not really, considering the topic is unwanted horses. This guy is giving away an 8 year old Leopard Appaloosa. Here’s the link, gorgeous horse!
http://savannah.craigslist.org/grd/1634431909.html
Hope someone local can give her a GOOD home that will put her to work, and teach her some manners as well.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/maine/articles/2010/03/08/not_all_the_pretty_horses_come_home/
The above link is to an article some might find, “interesting”. On another note, I can definitely say, I do not believe in the “unwanted” horse theory. There are horses that wind up at auction that are very much wanted. My first horse was one that, to this day I break down over. I boarded my horse at a facility, was young, married to my first husband who was more of financial money pit then my horse and because of this, fell behind in my horse board and was unable to catch up. The boarding facility placed a lein on my horse and after 3 months, they sold him at auction. I was devestated, divorced my husband and couldn’t bear to look at any horse for more then a year. I don’t think I will ever live down the guilt I feel over having married this man to begin with, that led to the loss of my horse, let alone not divorcing him before things became so bad. The BO refused to discuss with me where my horse wound up, even years later, so I will never truly know his fate, but wherever he went, it was not because he was “unwanted”.
I don’t usually post, but this just broke my heart. I’m so sorry that your life took this turn and that you lost your horse this way. Sounds like it’s your husband who deserved to be sold at auction
.
Have you tried to find your horse? I know you said the BO wouldnt give you any info, but sometimes you can post an ad on Cl or other places with pics asking for info. Might help. Im really sorry you had to lose your horse like that, I know it had to be devistating.
Thanks, ceegee and Holiday24 for your empathy. Unfortunately, Holiday24, this happened in December of 1989. I did what word of mouth I could do at the time, but it was hard. The internet has been a boon to searches, but a lot of time went by before the internet became what it has become and my boy was 18 at the time, so the likelyhood of finding him, as much as I would love that, is pretty slim, especially since my sense is that he was put through auction, but just for the hell of it, if anyone in So. Cal. knows of a 1/2 Arab, flea bitten gray gelding about 15 hh with a patch of ingrown warts next to the left nostril, appeared to have extensive training (dressage), but no aptitude for the showring (how I eventually got him. He would become a nut in high pressure situations, but was the best horse you could ask for on the trail by himself). Like I said, this happened in 1989, but if this horse sounds familiar and anyone knows who may have had him, I would love to get in touch. I have no delusions that if he didn’t wind up with a kill buyer, he probably is gone now, anyway.
Nothing on our farm is untrained. Older ex-dude ranch horse has been tuned up since we took him in to semi-retire here. Our 18 year old AQHA gelding I trained myself and he is gentle enough for a beginner. The Shetland is a bit small for me to ride but I clicker trained her to do tricks to keep her mind active while our son is still too young to ride her. And I’m saddle-breaking our large standard donkey. Once I get him finished, I’ll be able to train anything. He is the hardest equine I’ve ever had to train but he is also the most loyal and willing. It is more a negotiation rather than me actually telling him what to do, but we’ll get there.
God forbid something should happen that would make us find homes for our four equines. Should the worst occur, at least they’ve got a chance to be useful to another family.
Kudos to everyone else that has trained every equine they own!
I agree and kudos to you!
Training IS life insurance for a horse.
This is OT, but thought everyone should be aware.
http://freedompawsunited.webs.com/animalrescuereferral.htm I
This is absurd. Not only did a sherrif’s office, the owners, and the caretakers of this horse leave it to suffer in a pool of blood, but a veterinarian did too. And they charged the only person helping the hose with tresspassing. Nice….
Good Lord! What is wrong with people?!!!!!!!!
Pretty Simple… They only care about themselves.
We’re becoming a society that doesn’t give a squat about anything but what we want.
Fight it! Teach your children old-fashioned values like good manners, compassion, and HUMILITY. Teach the Ten Commandments – minus the ones about God, if you insist. If you don’t have kids, agitate for better schools that teach good values. Teach that ol’ fashioned work ethic, teach critical thinking (AKA logic)… I could go on.
Rantin’ Ruthie
I 100% agree too much supply and low demand is a HUGE problem. I don’t want to give too much detail at this point, but in recent months I’ve become quite familiar with the the equine meat industry. A lot of people find it easier to just can the horse and take their $200 for a horse that isn’t working rather than feed the thing while they piss around trying to sell a hard to sell horse they won’t get much for anyway. Meat buyers also have their own trucks and trailers and will pick up the horse in a timely manner instead of messing with people who want you to haul the horse for them or can’t seem to coordinate shipping.
People would put a lot more effort into buying a “useless” horse and making it a useful horse if demand was up and supply was down. Right now I can pick up a well broke horse for a few hundred without having to look hard or go far. Unless your into rescue, it makes no sense to buy something and get it broke when you can get one already broke and sound for a few hundred.
Obviously shutting down slaughter houses is a controversial issue. I think that the government would be better off implementing effective programs that encourage quality over quantity and eliminating the supply of meat horses thus putting the slaughter houses out of business on their own. If they go under on their own, no one can argue that they are needed.
Personally I think people should have to write a test and obtain a license to own any animal. They should also have to write a very advanced test and obtain a separate license to breed animals of ANY species
I also have to add in that if there were less horses, the cost of buying them would go up, and the cost of feeding them would go down.
There would actually be enough hay to go around and there would be no more paying gross amounts of money for not so great hay during a shortage.
That would greatly reduce the number of people who can afford to buy a horse but not keep one. A perfect world to me would be one where it’s far harder to buy a horse than to maintain one. At this time it’s far easier to buy than maintain, and I think that’s another part of the problem
I also have to add that as there are fewer horses and demand rises, it will not only increase the prices of horses, but there will be less horses eating, and the cost of feeding them should go down as well.
I think horses would benefit a lot from a system that makes them VERY expensive to buy, and reasonably cheap to maintain. Keeping horses will never be cheap to feed, but people who don’t have the income and money management skills to come up with 10g to purchase a horse can’t afford to own one. If they can’t buy the horse in the first place, they can,t starve it.
I would disagree with this – I know many people, myself included, that couldn’t dream of raising 10g to buy a horse but I can (just) afford to keep mine. The most expensive of ours was £2200 and that was a real struggle to put together but ny being very careful and working for board my horse is very well cared for – if one of us has to go without it is me that doesn’t get, the horses always come first.
This also assumes that those with money will use it for the horse – I have a friend (still a teenager) who has a tb mare, bought cheap and completly unsuitable. Her father refused to insure for vet fees and on the occasions when she needed vet care we had to fight to be allowed to call the vet. He waited several days when mine would have been seen within an hour. He constantly moaned that the vet was too expensive and he couldn’t afford it – and then he would go out and buy a £20 000 car and take him, girlfriend and 3 kids to Disney World in Florida so definatly not skint.
Having money to splash out on an expensive horse doesn’t do anything to gaurentee that the horse will be properly cared for.
Paying to have your horse trained by a professional can be the best thing to happen to you and your horse. I have spent lots o bucks preventing the other kind o bucks, and it is worth it. Ask for recommendations, inspect potential trainer’s facilities, watch them work another horse, and if you can ride a “finished” horse by that trainer it is priceless. My pasture disaster (owned 9 years, ridden until launched for 5, nonridden out of self preservation for 4) has been with a trainer for 5 months. She is now using him to teach riding lessons to children (even the ones she likes!) I rode him yesterday. Not perfect, but ride-able. And he is honest, and not nuts. Maybe in part it’s him being older (11 years now). But even if he was not a “wanted” ride-able horse, he was my responsibility, and no way was I going to dump him onto an unsuspecting buyer OR someone who would have abused him OR worse. It costs money to own a horse anyway, seems like a good thing to get them trained to do a job. Oh, I have done the three month thing with other trainers with this horse twice. Current trainer is going to get a minimum of 6 months.
A couple years ago I competed in the “Equine Evaluation and Selection CDE” (career development event) at FFA Nationals. And low-and-behold the group presentation was on horse slaughter. From the way the question was presented it seemed to me that FFA was definitely weighting the question towards pro-slaughter. The way they worded the question (I forget exactly how now) they made it seem like there were no options for anyone to ‘rid themselves’ of their unwanted horses- that there weren’t enough rescues to take in any of the horses. It may have been a lot of bias from the judge (there was a section of Q&A as well.)
Overall I wasn’t impressed with the quality of the Equine section. In the judging portion there was a little girl, who couldn’t be more than 7, with only a cowboy hat, on a 16hh gelding (whose side was scared by spurs), there was a Morgan mare halter class where some were poorly groomed and the handlers had no sense of presentation.
Herc fans
You asked for it and you got it – another original painting of Herc on Ebay!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280475658717&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#ht_500wt_970
fhotd -
Concerning my friend with the barn full of untraineded horses she raised. I have suggested your idea of getting a trainer to split the sale price with her many times to. We figured out recently that she had $4200+ into one raising one of her sale horses that she recently sold for $250. Not too many young trainers would want to take the risk of getting hurt for $125. To make it worth it for any trainer, his cut would have to be more than the finished horse is worth IMO. She plans to get local help this year, but cheap help often gets tired, hurt, ( then maybe ending up sueing you!) or burnt out quickly and you never see them again. For anyone thinking of getting into making money with horses, she is a prime example of trying to do things right, and it still not working. I am currently breaking a 4 and 5 year old that I raised. (yes, I do not ride babies) I ride them twice a day for about 10 minutes each time, and boy can it sometimes be easy to find excuses not to. One isn’t too bad, but two seems like 20. I can not imagine the average horse owner anyone having the time to do 10, 15, 20 justice, unless it was their full time business. Guess I am showing my age.
Oh I hear you. Green horses are exhausting, even when well behaved. When I was breaking the VLC, I was also putting in some rides on other greenies. I rode nothing but green. One day I went for a cutting lesson and got put on an APHA world champion cutting mare and I could not BELIEVE how fun and easy it was. I had literally forgotten how EASY it was to ride something BROKE! It was like…omg…it stays loping. It stays loping and I don’t have to DO anything. It just stays loping. And it doesn’t hit the walls!
Ditto on that. My redhead was barely green and he was my first attempt at finishing after riding experienced show horses and old lesson packers for fifteen years. Never again. It was like every moment on his back was a schooling session, and riding became less fun and more of a chore. I’ve decided greenies are just too much work, and I’m still in my twenties!
I have a formerly “unwanted” horse, and he’s turned out to be a gem. Growing up as a trainer’s kid (without much money), I generally got fixer uppers, so I’ve always enjoyed the challenge. I was working at a barn in school (saddle seat place) that buys up horses once a year from shady little auctions (and also leases some) for the Mardi Gras parades (then resells most of them back down the river afterwards). They make quite a bit renting these horses out for each parade for the krewe members to ride. A lot of these people only sit on a horse once a year during the parades and are often not all that sober… Anyway, that’s an obnoxious story for another day, though it could make for quite the Fugly post (insert evil laugh here).
My little guy came in with this bunch, and I immediately spotted him being led in the barn. He’s an appy, so the saddlebred people didn’t give him a second look. For me (despite also being a longtime saddle seat person), it was love at first sight. Then I rode him and it was all over. Unfortunately, I was a poor college kid and could not afford a horse. A young girl taking lessons at the barn bought him, and that was a complete disaster. He was very green and sensitive and tossed her within the first week she owned him (broken arm), but lucky for him, I got to work him for the 2 months she was out of commission and fell in love. I quit shortly thereafter (he was really the only thing keeping me there) and was hopeful he would get along with his new owner, though it seemed unlikely.
A year later I found out he was for sale. It was pretty clear he was headed back to the shady little auction if nobody bought him within the week (unlikely). He’d developed a nasty reputation and apparently dumped every rider in the barn (shocking if you know this horse today). He’s energetic and was kept in a stall 24/7 and then tranquilized whenever he got pulled out for a lesson (needless to say, he wasn’t real happy to see people coming into his stall at that point). When we tried him out, he was sweaty and out of breath after 5 minutes on a longe and was far worse than he had been after I’d put 2 months of work on him the year before (didn’t even try to dump either of us though…)
I decided I’d use student loans to buy him and the plan was to “flip” him after 3 months after he’d gotten some good work under his belt. When I called to get him, the barn manager said he was already in a mud lot on the way to the auction and we had to come get him by 11am or he was gone. Then he changed his tune when we said we’d pick him up and offered to haul him for us instead (because he obviously didn’t want us to see where they were keeping these 30 horses on the way to auction… hour and a half each way, so I don’t think he did it out of the goodness of his heart.)
3 months came… and went… And I decided to take him with me after I finished school. I think I could sell him tomorrow for at least 10 times what I paid for him, and I don’t think I’d take it because I’d be hard pressed to replace him for that. My dressage coach adores him, and he can jump the moon. Nobody can believe he came into my care as a “rogue” haha. He’s about 15 hands and cute as a button and tends to surprise the sporthorse crowd with his movement. Yep, my little 15 hand appy gets compared favorably to warmbloods all the time = )
I’m another that would love to get rich, retire, and then have a barnful of misfits to fix and resell to happy homes. It’s amazing what a little bit of good horsemanship can do for an “unwanted” horse.
I love happy endings.
Great post but I have to comment about one thing. You stated you think horse rescues should be like other shelters in that after a certain period of time the horse is put down. It isn’t the euth phobic alone that have a problem with this. Horses are not the same as cats and dogs. You can’t compare them to dogs and cats in that way and not even close in numbers of surplus. Horses require more effort from the shelter. Training is not only key to selling a horse its the key to a horse’s succesful adoption and although not a guarantee it certainly helps keep them in homes. A dog that has a small training issue like not knowing how to walk on the leash can be fixed by almost any owner . A horse that is not trained to lead can hurt or even kill someone. If a rescue is not willing to dirty their hands with grooming or evaluating or training then they should stick to another type of animal.
I don’t know … I mean, a lot of dogs CAN kill someone.
I do agree that rescues should train but I also draw a distinction between a nonprofit rescue and a government-run shelter. If we actually had government run horse shelters, they’d work the same as small animal shelters do now – the breed rescues and private rescues WOULD pull animals that had potential and just needed some retraining to find a loving home. Whereas the equine equivalents to the biting dog would get euthed and that would be so much more humane than what happens to them now.
The thing that really bothers me about a government run equine shelter concept is that the horses that were to be put down because they were ‘unadoptable’ would more than likely have no chance for survival. I agree that the horse that is so sad and borken down or so mentally scarred that the only humane thing to do IS to put it down should be allowed to go, but there is also the aspect that millions of healthy, adoptable animals go to the needle every year. I see shelters more as death row for the unlucky, rather than sanctuaries where there is an unlimited shelf life on an animal.
“A dog that has a small training issue like not knowing how to walk on the leash can be fixed by almost any owner .”
Where’d you get that idea? It’s not true. Most dog owners have no idea how to leash train. I know; I taught obedience classes for eleven years.
Most dogs don’t get walked because it’s a pain in the… hands. Neither is it a “small” issue. Pulling like a freight train means the dog doesn’t get walked at all. Bad manners means living in the back yard, or being dropped off at the shelter. Most of the dogs turned over to shelters these days are untrained adolescents. It’s no different than the horse world in that area: untrained means no home.
I can’t tell you how many people have asked me, “Where can I get a dog like yours?” My response: “By adopting one and training it for 15 minutes a day for 3 or 4 years.”
Ruthie, experienced
The OTT thoroughbred which I was given about 6 years ago (he is 29 now) was owned by his same owner from age 3 until he was given to me. I ride him weekly on small trail rides (pleasure not competition). He is fabulous.
My mother’s walking horse (Boots) was purchased by my father for her on their anniversary, although he was 8 years old, they had him for 31 years and he died in my barn one night – just laid down peacefully and went to sleep.
To say that a horse is unwanted is a gross generalization. There are plenty of people who WANT hoeses, they are just finanically and morally responsible to know that they do not have enough time for a horse, and would not want to pull a helpless animal into an unfortunately stupid situation. The reverse is true for sellers: There are plenty, no, LOADS of people who want to keep their fugly little family gelding, but are not in the fiscal situation to do that while simultaneously being fair to the horse. Can you say cheap, money-whoring vet who obviously has forgotten is honor code? I have a huge place in my heart for ‘unwanted’ horses, and to think of them as disposable is unacceptable. The society in which we live was built on the backs of horses, and our appreciation for their contribution is well overdue.
I have long enjoyed reading Fugly and was delighted to see my article raise such a thoughtful thread. When I was writing that article I refrained from getting too much into the training issue (you can only make a few points or you begin to lose focus). However, it is an incredibly important issue and I am glad you raised it.
In other markets it is often discussed. For example, any discussion of unemployment usually gets into different levels of education and skill as well as different sectors. “Unwanted employees” as you so cleverly called them, can often get employment by retraining into a market where there is demand and a relative scarcity.
In industries like the automotive business, the concept is called “value added”. For example, a company may take an ordinary truck chassis made by a large automaker and fit them out as a camper van. So the concept is practiced everywhere.
What I would like to say is that we all owe it to our horses to see that they get the skill set they need to find a new home if anything happens to us. I have often put off such efforts because at the moment I did not need another trail horse. I have begun to realize that is not fair to my horses any more than it is fair for a parent to allow a child to go uneducated.
But once we have done that, we need to make sure the system will look at them for their skills. I have several wonderfully trained horses with great dispositions that were rescued from situations where only their weight was evaluated as they were run through the ring. That is simply not right, no matter how convenient it is for their former owners, the registries or anyone else.
Luckily, that is already changing to a certain degree with sales moving from the local auctions to the internet. I am finding more owners who care more about who gets the horse than how much he sells for. If the new EU rules further constrict the slaughter pipeline, we may have a chance to transition to a system that is more fair to our horses.
“I have begun to realize that is not fair to my horses any more than it is fair for a parent to allow a child to go uneducated.”
I have made exactly that point, also. Not training your young horse is as irresponsible as keeping your child home from school and not so much as teaching him to tie his shoes.
It always bears noting that horse ownership and horse breeding (like parenthood) are CHOICES that we make. They are entirely OPTIONAL. No one is sticking you with a responsibility you don’t want or can’t handle without your consent. You are the one who CHOSE the responsibility.
Oh yes… I see that plenty have brought up the “it’s better than letting them starve” argument, including the kill buyer from a link posted earlier. Well, if that is the case, why don’t we just round up homeless people, or orphans for that matter, and kill them all. I mean, they are “unwanted” and are suffering from neglect and possible starvation. The economy and overpopulation definitely contribute the the problem, so with this nightmare economy that should be a viable option. After all, the people who hate those of us on the “lunatic fringe” of animal rights think that we care more about relieving animal suffering than human, so lets be humane to our fellow humans in the same way that we are humane to horses by eliminating the possibility of neglect and starvation due to the economy. Why should horses receive better treatment than humans? So many horses are finding a humane solution while people are starving to death. I’m just pointing out that it is ridiculous to think that shipment to slaughter/slaughter is a humane way to deal with a bad economy.
“Well, if that is the case, why don’t we just round up homeless people, or orphans for that matter, and kill them all.”
This is very bad thinking. It even has a name: “ad hominem” in Latin, “straw man” in English. It means your argument is so poor that you have to erect a false target, and try to get people to attack it instead of answering the original question.
Ruthie
This is off-topic, but I wanted to put the word out that Courtney King-Dye, U.S. Olympic dressage rider, had a young horse slip and fall while she was schooling yesterday. She fractured her skull, and is in a coma.
I know that it’s not sexy and it’s not cool and it’s not mandatory for adults, but please, everyone, please consider wearing a helmet EVERY TIME YOU RIDE. If one of the top riders in the world can have this happen, it can happen to ANY of us. None of us are good enough to prevent freak accidents, and none of us are invulnerable. If you aren’t doing it for yourself, please do it for your family, your friends, even your horses.
Here’s the link to the article about Courtney. She’s listed in stable condition, but is still in a coma: http://www.horsechannel.com/horse-news/2010/03/05/courtney-king-dye-injured.aspx
Heather Blitz, amazing Grand Prix rider, has a great reminder about helmets here (written in light of Courtney’s injury): http://www.heatherblitz.info/Heather_Blitz/Welcome_.html
Check out this interesting craigslist post; http://i47.tinypic.com/2hr1urq.png
I’ll take any and all cl postings!
clhorseads@gmail.com
Send them, I’ll use them!
love the post today fugs!
Fulgy I saw this on craigslist in show low AZ and wanted to send you the information but didn’t know your email address so I put it on here, the link to the ad is http://showlow.craigslist.org/grd/1634397119.html
“Clydesdale for sale. she’s 16 hands. Vet said she’s about 4 or 5 years old. She’s broke. Not shoed. Not trailor broke. She was recently dewormed. Good with kids. She’s real smart. She’s fast & strong and rides like a dream. She has a thick brown winter coat from all the snow. I’m selling her due to hard times (economy). Price is FIRM for she’s worth ALOT more.” These people want 5000.00 for this mare…
Location: Showlow, AZ
it’s NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
Oh good LORD.
I spent a number of years in the Show Low area. Not only is theer practically no market for Clydesdales, I doubt there is a market for such an expensive horse. Not unless the flatlanders are there in droves.
Something I would absolutely love to see is the jockey club or thoroughbred registries or whatever, put a CAP on the number of breedings a stallion can do per year. ESPECIALLY with freshman sires or unproven sires. I’ve got no issue with letting AP indy breed to 100 mares a year, but smaty jones, big brown, many others (3k stud fee allowance winners…), why are they covering so many their first few years? And then when their foals hit the track and do poorly, you’ve got a ton of unwanted thoroughbreds, who are generally hard to rehome. If they cut the number of thoroughbreds born each year even just in HALF it would help so much. It’s sad that in the situation with racehorses they can easily put rules in place to reduce the number of unwanted horses, but they don’t. Instead they ban trainers vanning to slaughter. Why not go to the source? How many kitten’s joy foals have you seen running this year? Whhhhyyyy??? And then breeders are shocked when a bunch of them wind up in slaughter. Quality over quantity; stud fees go up, oh well, less unwanted horses. (and I’ve heard the whole “diamond in the rough” argument, and I think that’s total BS. total BS. The “chance” to get a good horse is not worth the slaughter of hundreds.)
I’d totally back a cap. Why does any stallion need to sire more than 25 a year? What possible reason could there be?
I think for freshman sires that probably won’t do well, the first few years is where they’ll make money. You get horses that won a few big races, but have medicore blood lines and tons of soreness issues breeding 100 mares a year, at 50k a pop. Then they hit the track and all flop, the stud fee drops like crazy, but at least they made money initially *eyeroll*
Then the diamond in the rough thing, the more horses bred the higher chance of finding that special derby winner or huge stakes horse that cost next to nothing. Which is BS because 1- that never happens, and it’s exaggerated/ overglorified when it does and 2- most “good” horses are ruined by poor training or drugs anyways
both arguments are very weak, which is why I don’t get why a cap doesn’t get put into place, when obviously there is lots of anti slaughter movement in the racing industry.
This is a fantastic idea. I also think there should be requirements for TB stallions. We all hear about the derby and stakes winners retiring to stud, but there are countless horses out there who maybe win one stakes and the rest of their money making was done in cheaper allowances and even claimers, and yet they still end up stallions. All because somewhere down the line, they have Seattle Slew or Secretariat in their lines. And the same is said for broodmares. There are so many broodmares who don’t do ANYTHING significant on the track and their still popping out foals every year. Will it make stud fees go up? Probably, but we’ll have better horses on the ground and fewer of them.
I think an all around cap on freshman/ unproven sires would be great, and maybe even a lower cap for horses that haven’t won however many graded races or whatever.
I disagree about broodmares though, there’s tons of amazing broodmares that never raced, or were maidens. There’s actually a fairly well backed theory about “nervous energy†that mares that race well tend to be bad as broodmares, and vice versa.
I think we have a lot of trouble in U.S. TB racing because nobody wants to upset the big money breeders and owners. The sport is limping along over here and has a poor public image (I still don’t understand why they don’t hire an amazing PR and marketing team and get to work!) so the breeders and owners have a lot of power.
I think the sport desperately needs to think outside of the box, including increased efforts to minimize TBs that are no longer useful for racing getting sent to slaughter, young studs with 3 races then a breakdown getting retired to stud to breed hundreds of mares, perhaps considering not racing horses until they’re 3 (yeah right), interesting alternatives to increase revenue, etc. I think in Germany they have a rule that only TBs having raced a certain number of races or seasons (can’t remember exactly) can stand at stud. What a novel idea! It’s sort of like an approval process, brilliant! Then you not only have sounder race horses but sounder retired horses that have a great shot at a new career. I know that means some exceptional individuals that just had bad luck will be left out of the gene pool, but I think the overall effect on the American TB would be worth it.
LOL Oh, don’t get me started on 2 year old racing or any of the other issues. I think the breeding cap would be the most obvious and doable thing for the slaughter/ overpopulation. I doubt highly that as a whole, racing wants to abolish 2 year old racing…they don’t. In my opinion they should at LEAST cut out a bunch of the 2 year old stake races, disallow jockeys from carrying whips in 2 year old races, and put a cap on the number of races allowed and frequency of races for 2 year olds (like…they can only race 3 times and each race must have at least 4 weeks in between). I’m sick of seeing 2 year olds running every 2 weeks in huge allowance races, it’s too much too soon. One light prep here and there, that’s justifiable (almost, I still would like to see racehorses BROKEN at 3) but like I said, racing officials don’t want to get rid of 2 year old racing, but they DO want to decrease slaughter, soooo
As far as upsetting big name breeders, that is definitely a reason. I think if a few breeders and owners stepped up to support it, it would make a huge difference. Or the officials need to grow some balls and say if YOU want to breed your horse to hundreds of mares per year, then YOU need to be willing and able to feed and care for every single one of those foals for its whole life.
Me too on the anti-racing 2 year olds stance. Is disgusting what they do to these poor horses who arent even close to being fully grown. I grew up minutes away from Del Mar Racetrack, riding horses and begging my parents to take me to the races every year, and religiously following the Kentucky Derby. After my entire family and I watched that filly breakdown in the Derby a few years ago on live TV I have not been back to the track and dont know when I will be, if ever.
And, pardon this assumption in advance because its heavily relying on books I read as a kid, but arent even many of the “2 year olds” not technically even two yet? That whole Jan 1 birthday thing? Again, ‘scuse me if this is Walter Farley folklore I am remembering…
Correct. Many 2′s aren’t 24 months yet.
Yes. It used to make for easier bookkeeping for the Jockey Club – but with all our computers today, it should be easy to keep the birthdate on file and use it for entries.
Ruthie
Absolutely, training is key.
Except you gotta wonder what some people believe is “training”. I just came across this video and all I can say is WTF???
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80925308
err sorry i guess that video is old news! my bad!
Bad luxury barn du jour:
http://auctionhorses.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=auctionhorses&action=display&thread=1224&page=1
Really? You could not find a home for this horse? How hard did you try? Not very!
She’s looking very confused and unhappy in that kill pen. You people SUCK.
Fugly-regarding the beautiful saddleseat horse in the kill pen– The training barn isn’t the only disgusting lowdown miserable excuse for humans here, unless the barn/trainer is also the owner. I bet she cost her owners a bundle and they dumped her at a meat sale so they could document how much of a loss they “had” to take on her for tax purposes.
Dirty lowdown bastards. Sorry, I don’t curse, but this horse’s sutuation is beyond grotesque. She is the perfect poster horse to counter those people who claim that only the old, lame and unusable horses go to slaughter auctions. If her owners had cared at all, they could have put her in a catalog sale for the show trade–not dumped her. Whoever they are I hope they never ever win another class – no make that another ribbon of any kind- with any horse they buy.
If I were closer, younger and employed, I’d take her and send her to a trainer who knows how to calm a horse, and have her shown in 4-H or other little shows where there isn’t any real pressure, OR I’d turn her into a pleasure horse or pleasure driving horse. She doesn’t deserve this– but then I don’t think ANY horse does. She must be so frightened and confused — like a princess who suddenly finds herself in a slave pen.
Looks like someone is on their way to get her…Thank god!
Wow, I hope somebody goes and gets this mare. She might make a nice sport horse prospect for someone with some experience retraining saddle seat horses. She might also make a nice saddle seat horse for someone willing to let her drop down to where she’s comfortable (apparently she wasn’t super happy with her current trainer/rider according to that thread).
This is crap, but some owners (or trainers) decide they want out from under a horse NOW because it’s not doing what they want (winning blues probably) and they want another one instead – part of our throw away consumer society. They don’t care if they lose money because a most owners with money don’t really get into showing horses to make money (just to spend a LOT and win 30 cent ribbons). The trainer probably saw this as a win/win – gets the non-winner out of the barn and gets a commission from the new horse the owner will buy who might be a winner for a minute until the rider drags it down again.
Not all trainers support this type of behavior. We had a lovely four year old saddlebred who’s owner was at least one slice short of a loaf. This mare had some teeth issues and was a slow developer, so she wasn’t a world beater as a four year old. However, given time to grow up, she had all the talent in the world. We took her to a big show, where she did quite well (no blue though). The owner was displeased and decided to take her home early, fair enough, get her home from the stress, okay. Well when we got back to the barn, our handsome Rosie was nowhere to be found. When we called the owner, she said she had taken her straight to the auction (not a good one) from the show and gotten rid of her… Our best hope for the mare was that an Amish person in the area thought she might make a fancy driving horse and she ended up with a decent home.
We were crushed because we would have bought that mare in a heartbeat (for a very fair price), and we could never get out of the owner where she went. I just don’t understand people… Get a pet rock or something, ugh.
I love Saddlebreds, you can retrain them into Hunters easily (in my opinion) if Saddleseat isn’t your thing. They’re just so fancy!
They really do suck, Fugs. How about sending that fine mud lot picture to their website??? Show what proud owners do with their fine stock. Perhaps there’s a neat little blog they belong to for showing off their fine character. But you can only imagine “birds of a feather flock together”…
ugh~ people not only suck…
Yeah, this is going to be another blog entry – sounds like a damn broken record, doesn’t it? I fear I’m becoming boring but their customers definitely deserve to know what kind of people they are.
I’m just waiting to hear the mare is off the lot.
Here’s another Craigslist find….poor thing! Only $50 will buy you this horse….that needs a lot of care and feed to regain anything remotely resembling a healthy animal.
http://wausau.craigslist.org/grd/1635242891.html
I don’t know where to post this, but I am having a hell of a time finding a horse here in GA that isn’t 20 years old or 2 and unbroke. I’m an intermediate rider looking for a first time horse. I’m going to be boarding this horse at a full board barn with people who are more knowledgeable about the daily ins and outs of owning a horse, but I can’t seem to find anything at all.
I need some help finding something that isn’t a conformational disaster. I’m also fairly tall and prefer a taller horse. I’m not looking to compete, or show, I just want a companion horse that I can take trail riding on the weekends. I don’t ride in the winter, so I’m not looking for something that is going to lose its mind if its not worked everyday. Its full board with about ten acres of fenced land, lots of trees and scrub, but its all horse safe. There are currently three horses there, two mares and a gelding. I’d prefer a gelding myself, but I wouldn’t be opposed to a mare. If its a nice horse, but not gelded, I’d have that done anyway. Just prefer to have that out of the way already though, really.
Can anyone point me somewhere where I wont have to break the bank?
I wish you were closer. Like I posted earlier, I would give up my 2 horses because of my personal concerns of them out living me. The operative word here is “give”. I have never sold any horses (or any animal for that matter) I’ve ever owned. I will give my horses away to a FOREVER home only. I’ve done it in the past with a fantastic mare I had. She had to be put down last spring due to an injury. She was 23 yrs and they had her for 12 yrs. I had her as a 4 yr OTTB in foal. People like that are hard to find, I think, unless you know them personally, as I did. I don’t know that I could trust just anyone to do that so I will keep them and continue training when the weather breaks.
Take a look at this list of rescues:
http://alexbrownracing.com/wiki/index.php/Horse_rescue
There aren’t any listed for Georgia, but there are quite a few for Florida. If you are interested in a specific breed, post it here and I’m sure someone could post a related rescue for you. I’m aware of an Arab rescue and Saddlebred Rescue. If you find something you like, rescues are usually reasonable enough that you can still afford to ship the horse a distance if you find what you want.
Good luck!
Take a look at what’s available from Saddlebred Rescue:
http://www.saddlebredrescue.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=2&Itemid=62
Some really nice trail riders in this bunch. And SBR is known for evaluating their rescues and doing a great job of matching people and horses. Don’t know what their adoption fees are like but I’m sure they will work with you. Same for transportation – there are a lot of SB people up and down the east coast who I’m sure would lend a hand. Great bunch of people help out that rescue.
Yes, I really like that rescue also…they really get gold stars on evaluation and honesty. They post very plainly what a horse is like, good and bad.
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/grd/1630167194.html
I don’t think the vets are being self-serving. I know at least as many disagree with slaughter as support it. I don’t believe that reducing the number of crappy horses reduces work for the vets – the people producing low-end POS horses they can’t sell are not the ones who call the vets out for anything short of catastrophe (and frequently, not even then). Vets do come from somewhere, though, before all their schooling – and if you go into a profession with an upbringing on a shitty horse farm, those opinions don’t die when you get your degree. If they were smart about money, they would encourage humane euth and disposal of “unwanted” horses, not be pro-slaughter.
I love my crabby, senile old mare more than anything else in the world. Seeing her age and change has been difficult at times, and accepting early retirement at 20 due to DSLD was devestating. But, it has had a major benefit though… I have come to appreciate her in her old age. She still makes me laugh, and my day is not complete without seeing her. This has made me into a person who will always have room for a grouchy old mare in need of a home.
A few years ago, I outbid the kill buyer for an unbroken older Arab mare at auction – and I board out, so it wasn’t easy to justify. I started her under saddle, she had a year of basic dressage, and she was adopted out. Now she is very much pampered and loved, part of a children’s riding program. She had been unwanted, and now she is indispensible… I checked up on her a couple weeks ago, and her owner loves her too much to ever part with her.
How can anyone say that this mare was unwanted, and dump her at a kill auction, when all she needed was some basic training? I had never started a horse before, I am not a pro or anything. If I could do it with such good results, I know that there are others who can.
fhotd:
I’m kornfused…to whom are you talking to in your last three posts?… good replies though.
Geeze Loueeze! What’s with the beautiful horse in the pic (Midsummer Classic?)??? It’s in a killpen? Where?
When I moderate comments, I can’t see how far down in the chain I’m replying to. The software stops letting you reply directly below a comment after about 3 tiers. So sometimes it gets bumped to the bottom and makes no sense. Sorry!
OT: Could you knowledgable people that train, please look at this video and tell the jerk why it’s wrong
http://www.tennesseetrailriders.com/video/0228100827a-1?id=2272844%3AVideo%3A83219&page=1
Thanks
You guys, a GERMAN just got elected President of the AQHA, and the FB fans are going nuts.
I never cease to be amazed at people’s instant bigotry and racism. They completely jump to conclusions (bad spelling, grammar and general trashiness aside) without getting ANY facts whatsoever. So glad I am not an AQHA member any longer.
Related to this blog, I loved the girl who said, “I only own 2 QHs…” HA only two. Let’s hope you keep it that way, honey.
Just to clarify a German was not “elected” President of AQHA. The AQHA hierchy is successive, you are voted on to the Executive Committee and each year move up a chair, at the end is the Presidents Chair. He has been in the position to assume the chair since he joined the Executive Committee.
Any dumbass that is throwing a fit shows a complete ignorance of their own assoiation.
I am also trying to figure out the problem here. Are they worried they will switch out the nachos for sauerkraut at next year’s Congress?
I know! I just about snorted Ramen through my nose when the comments came up.
Maybe we could get some stallion testing on the table with a Euro in a position of power, eh?
I wish I could honestly be surprised by the commentary on FB, but I’m not. Typical insanity. I guess there will be no shortage of AQHA drama this year.
Hi everyone! *waves* I’m back occasionally. Some of you might remember me from the “old” site.
For those of you following this – the Arabian/Dutch mare has been bailed out of the kill pen and is going to a trainer who has a youth rider for her. I sincerely hope we’re going to see a very happy follow up later this summer. I really do believe the mare is probably either (a) backsore or (b) brain-fried and she can be fixed and return to the show ring.
I take in off-the-track standardbreds and the first thing the ex-race trainer asks me (usually about two days later after the horse arrives) is, “Have you got on him yet? Have you walked, trotted and cantered him?” HUH?? GEESH! Not only do the horses I take in usually need time off to HEAL from their racetrack injuries, I then give them about 4 months “OFF” to just be a horse again, and THEN I start to retrain them to do other disciplines, working from the ground up. You cannot rush this process, period. So when people say that they pulled a standardbred off the track and two days later they were riding off into the sunset, I say “That’s great, but when you try and trail him, show him, or ride on the road, I hope you’re wearing hockey equipment, cause when he spooks all to sh%t and forgets that you’re on top of him (because you didn’t take the time to train him properly), you better hold on for dear life!”