Pretty…dangerous!
Feb 24 2010
For those of you who haven’t yet heard this story, at the Scottsdale All-Arabian show last week, a stunningly beautiful stallion called Scapa tromped the living hell out of his handler in the halter class. And I mean tromped. Put the guy in the hospital.
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You can read more on the Arabian Breeders Network board. Here is what one poster had to say. I’m VERY interested to hear from you if you were actually there and know anything. As always, make an alter, you’re welcome to stay anonymous!
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“The rumors floating about include that Scapa had been mentally fried from his previous halter training and was sent to Matthew for “rehab” and saddle work. Owners wanted him shown at Scottsdale, Matthew expressed concern about taking him, owners insisted, Matthew relented. From what I’ve seen described–stressing that I was not there and am simply repeating what I’ve seen reported elsewhere–the stallion lost it, had a major meltdown and that the ‘attacks’ were deliberate. The first two episodes were described as striking out and then shouldering the trainer out of the way, with the third time being a deliberate knock-down and savage, including the horse’s knees on the trainer. Again, as I understand it, after the first two episodes, the horse was loose in the ring, but was easily caught with no aggression shown and these episodes occurred BEFORE the class was considered “in session”.
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I checked out the Facebook and (oh look, the horse has his own Facebook too) web site of his owner, Paradise Arabians, and they are silent on the issue. Gee, you think they’d at least put something up to the effect of how sorry they are for Mr. Gales’ injuries and how they have Mr. Naughtypants scheduled with the vet for a much-needed brain surgery, wouldn’t you? But I have this sneaking suspicion…and we’ll see if I’m right…that what they really want is to keep this incident quiet and not lose their big investment in Mr. Naughtypants. Maybe because the main page of their web site brags that they’ll teach you all about “tax advantages, business opportunities, and the chance to create a Straight Egyptian Arabian breeding business of your own.”  We all know that is exactly what the industry needs right now – more beginners with a breeding business of their very own! Yes, I am being snarky. Dripping in snark, as a matter of fact. Dude, seriously, read this shit. They’re encouraging you to buy horses EVEN IF YOU ARE AFRAID OF THEM. What.the.fuck. On second thought, I might be afraid of them too if I owned Scapa!
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And this leads me to another question. Quite a few big name stallions do belong to a syndicate. In a situation like this, when the true horsepeople obviously know it’s time for Mr. Naughtypants’ stud career to come to an abrupt halt, what happens when your investors – who may not know horse behavior from a hole in the ground – say hell no, we put money into this thing and it needs to sire a zillion babies and pay us back? I always forget that stallions may not be owned by horsepeople. Wooo. Scary thought. Good luck accomplishing “responsible breeding” in that scenario.
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The thing I’m most interested to see here is if any public position is taken. ‘Cause there are only two logical options here:
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1. Scapa is a nasty piece of work and needs to be gelded.
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2. Scapa was reacting in an understandable manner given his past or present abuse. This isn’t his genuine nature, and won’t come out in his foals. This tactic requires outing the abuser. From everything I’ve read, I do NOT believe this is Matthew Gales, the current handler, who has a good reputation. Too many people are speaking up in his defense, and commenting that he got the horse in order to fix it.Â
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I admit I’m kind of rubbing my hands together to see which “spin” will be put on this. I know his owners would probably prefer the Code of Silence spin on it, but hey, this is the Fugly Blog and it’s where we talk about things the horse industry would rather we didn’t! The #1 thing I want to know – who else has trained/handled Scapa? Does he need to be a pretty gelding, or is his behavior understandable given what he’s gone through and a sign that a good handler needs more time to rehab him and earn his trust before he ever re-enters a ring again?
413 comments to “Pretty…dangerous!”
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i have seen first hand the horror of a bad trainers’ legacy on an arabian halter mare. the only thing i am surprised about is that this kind of attack doesn’t happen more often. electricity seems to be the favored training tool of these freaks. my own sweet rescue mare had been trailer “trained” using a cattle prod, and do any of you know about the technique of standing the horse in water and zapping the water to teach the horse to prance? having grown up in gaited horse land, i thought i had seen it all, until i ran into the arab halter world. yes, there are some fine, moral, kind halter trainers, but they don’t win nearly often enough. our friend started getting into the halter arabs, and after seeing what he was becoming, he became an ex-friend. i feel so bad for these bizarre, abused horses, and it is a shame that what seems to be a good trainer is paying for the actions of the others.
Every day, I hear a new torture method. I hope these people never have children!
This sort of thing keeps happening and I don’t know why everyone is so amazed and always wants to blame the horse completely. While the horse probably should be gelded (who is nuts enough to breed to a mankiller even if the horse was pushed over the edge by said man) and maybe even euthanized, IMHO it is probably wholly the fault of the “halter trainers” whoever they are.
This goes back to the fact that on show grounds, show management and stewards will generally do nothing even when the abuse is blatant and obvious (such as the mentioned hot-shotting in the washrack or literally taking a horse apart hair by hair out behind the barns) and of course stupid people who don’t care anything about anything except money and winning will keep their horse with an abusive trainer as long as there are “results.” Any animal pushed far enough, including the human animal, will do one of two things – shut down completely or fight like a cornered homicidal maniac.
“Back in the day” when a certain (then) young and (to be) high profile trainer got his start, he taught a clinic, a free one, on how to train a halter horse. He actually trained a client’s halter mare to “show” to the spoken command “bananas.” (By chance if you are that trainer and you are reading this, then you know who you are.) It was amazing and this lovely little mare was so happy and relaxed and eager to please!
But the term “Arab trainer” seems to equate with the term “horrifically abusive.”
I don’t understand why it is not only permitted to continue but encouraged and then covered up with mealymouthed excuses and shoving the story into oblivion to protect the guilty. I’m not convinced most Arabian people actually care about their horses and IMHO they are worse than the TW people ever thought of being.
“Arab trainer” does not equate with “horribly abusive”. You have to be kidding me. The halter world is only one segment of our industry. Do most QH people not care about their horses, based upon fugly’s last post? Do most Dressage people not care about their horses based on Rollkur and all of the terrible riding at Dressage shows? Do most hunter people not care about their horses based upon the trainers who have the grooms lunge all night long? I would be perfectly happy if halter just went away, to be honest. I do think that most of it is just sad to watch, but your blanket statements about us are ridiculous. If you want to say that DB does not care about his horses, and is horribly abusing… well then have at it. Why don’t you tell us what industry you are in where every single horse is properly cared for, and there is not a single bad guy?
That is just sick!!!
Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms
When Stallions Go Bad…..
I’ve seen this before, though it was years ago.
I was at an IBHA/PHBA show in Colorado when a stallion mounted his owner while coming out of an in-hand class. The stallion had been on the edge of “out of control” during the entire class, and the owner did nothing (he was dropped, trying to rear, talking to the other stallions, etc). On the way out of the class, not 12 feet from me, the stallion went up and came down on the owner. It took several men to beat the stallion off of the man, who suffered a few broken ribs and a broken collar bone. One of those men, a respected trainer in CO, offered that the owner had better geld the horse immediately, or someone would “do it for him”….
This was one of the scariest things I’ve ever had to witness!
I can remember a similar incident at a very small local show when I was a kid. I do not recall the exact details or the breed of the stud, but I do remember seeing the stallion get away from his handler and land a single kick straight to the guy’s face as he bolted. It left the him motionless on the ground. Somehow the gatekeeper was unable to get the gate closed (knowing the town we were in it was most likely a young kid) and the stud successfully made a break for it. Next thing I knew the announcer was broadcasting that there was a loose stud, my Aunt was yelling “get in the truck NOW!” and our mares were getting loaded into the trailer faster than I had ever seen. The stud ran the grounds for a good twenty minutes before he was chased into the warm up pen. The handler was hauled off in an ambulance and he escaped with his life, but not without serious injury. No other horses or people got hurt either, including the stud.
I don’t think that was an act of outright aggression, I think the stud wasn’t properly trained and/or spooked. But I’m not so sure about Scapa, it sure sounds like it was an attack.
Seeing that this happened at the Scottsdale Show, I’m shocked there aren’t 100 videos already posted. Surly this was caught on tape!
I’m waiting to see if the OFFICIAL show video goes poof on this!
Again, if you DID video the class but don’t want to get the blame, just send me the video. resqtb@yahoo.com
The thing is, the behaviors described are EXACTLY what I know a young naughty stallion did to someone I know. So I don’t believe it was an accidental bump. Smooshing someone into the ground with their shoulder is what they do. It is a known, repeated rank stallion behavior.
I know nothing of the stallion Scapa or his trainer. All I know is that if Arabian faces get any more dished, they really won’t be able to breath.
However, the reason I commented after a gajillion-year hiatus, and I’m sorry that this is off topic, is that I thought you’d like to know that Jason Meduna of Three Strikes shame, was sentenced: http://www.nebraska.tv/Global/story.asp?S=12033474
I’m glad he’s going to prison. But to think that he was facing up to 5 years and/or $10,000 for each of the 145 counts BUT got away with no less than 20 months and up to 5 years! I wish they would’ve fined him all the rescue operation costs, all rehab cost etc. Or may be instaed that he’d have to keep contributing for those horses, like alimony, a certain %age of his income each month for the entire length of those horses’ lives.
That is a great idea- alimony for abused horses!! Oh one can only hope.
Let’s see him take his shirt off in the prison yard, har har.
HAHAHA!!!! FREEEEEEEEEEESH MEAT! Ready to be broken in boys! I hope they have vasoline Meduna.
Oh, wait, I don’t.
I just want to say the foal on that link is bizarre looking. I know Arabs are supposed to have that pretty dished profile, but when did it become so grossly exaggerated? Or is that particular to the Egyptians?
The Egyptian heads are more extreme than, say, Polish, on average. I admit I really do like the Egyptian look – as long as it comes with a good disposition (which it usually does).
I agree with Milo. The horse on that link looks like some strange hybrid of a horse and a dolphin. Not attractive at all.
I agree with Milo and mpolka….that colt’s head is scarey, it looks like a cross between a giraffe and an alligator. Sorry Egyptian Arabian fans…..JMO Not MY taste.
In all fairness, ya’ll would probably think my big ole Palomino Paint looks like a FAT ASSED Giraffe !! ROFLMAO
I like arabs, I have several, (Polish and Russian lines and one HG Rainmaker daughter who is mostly Egyptian). What I don’t like is the extreme heads and over refined bones. (This particular example looks like he was hit in the head by a shovel as a baby, not my cup of tea).
His problems could very well be from a previous abusive trainer combined with an very sensitive temperment. Horses have excellent memories and just being in a ring could trigger the equivalent of a ‘panic attack’. I have a mare that was a show horse before I got her. She would start shaking and roll her eyes if you had a lunge whip near her for years (and I never showed her or beat her).
IMO I think he should be gelded and turned out for a year with some buddys to destress and learn to be a horse. Still handle, groom, teach to stand tied, ect. But I think his days as a show horse should be over. Maybe he could be trained as a CTR horse if he can come around mentally since there wouldn’t be the trigger of an arena for him.
Which link? I missed it.
Most arabian foals have extreme looking profiles when they’re born but ‘grow into’ their features. My Egyptian girl (profile pic) had the most extreme (and exquisite) profile when just a baby but looks quite ‘normal’ now as a six year old.
Dreadful situation and folk throwing blinding generalisations around about the arabian breed do little to quiet the discord but this is about being responsible when stallions are involved; regardless of their breed.
This stallion’s behaviour is totally unacceptable and unlikely to be accidental; more likely an extreme reaction (snapping) to something. He should be monitored closely and treated accordingly. Action of some kind needs to be taken – for his own sake and for those handling him, as does action against the people in ‘control’ of him to ensure this never happens again.
Pity the injured trainer bore the brunt of the ‘outbreak’, rather than the scumbags publicising and ‘selling’ the stallion via the internet.
Those who need a good slap are never the ones who get it.
Wow…I know stallions can get rough, I’ve certainly seen them strike out and push handlers around, even flip over and break their bridles in a halter class, but this is one thing I haven’t seen happen yet. I’m interested to to see what people have to say on this…I am looking through the website, and the first thing that catches my eye is that I am not seeing any pictures of this stallion performing under saddle. If I were going to breed to this stallion, I’d want to see some pictures of someone enjoying him and not just leading him around. It’s obvious he is beautiful, but I’d be equally as impressed by seeing someone riding him on an organized ride. Haven’t looked at his video yet, but it strikes me as sad that people are saying this horse is fried because of his halter training…yeesh, what about when it’s time to ride him? I sure would hate to see the kind of feed-em-and-lead-em mentality overtaking the Arabian industry as it already has the quarter horse industry. Arabians have already had plenty of challenges as a breed. My best horse was an Arabian, and a purebred Egyptian one at that, and I hate to see stuff like this happen. It makes everyone think the breed is nuts when there are some really fantastic horses out there.
PM, a LOT of Halter Horses from a LOT of breeds are NEVER EVER EVER ridden.
Yeah, I know.
Yep, and I find that flat out WRONG across the board.
It’s a damn horse. Its purpose is to be ridden. It’s not a fucking cockatoo.
LOLOL! OUCH! Touche, and point to Fugs! From someone who also owns parrots, I can tell you that my birds have better behaviors and uses for what they are than many of these halter horses you see!
My Arabian mare took Regional Reserve Champion Halter mare, and several Class A halter wins, and she is a greenbroke western pleasure horse, was riding last summer before I got her and made her a fancy pasture ornament
Cytosk, who is a top 10 National Halter winner also won US National Reserve Champion English Pleasure. Echo Magnifficco was shown both Halter and Western Pleasure, as was Sheila Varian’s Desperado V. Bel Aire V has first places and championships in Halter and Country English Pleasure. Bask had championships in Halter, Driving, and Park. Khemosabi took Halter Championships at US and Canadian Nationals. He also won US and Canadian Nationals in Driving and Western Pleasure.
They are out there, if you look!
There is NO excuse for it! My friend is a racehorse trainer and out of the blue she was attacked – knocked to the ground, knees in her back biting her etc – by one of the stallions coming back from the breeding shed. She is very experienced etc and this was a shock. She was in the hospital with several broken ribs, punctured rib etc. The stallion was syndicated and all owners agreed to euthanize him.
Gee.. they are from Georgia too.. love it when the locals make us look stoopid.
I read too what it said abut the setting up of a horse business, and while I personally would like to see this seminar because I am already into horses and would be interested in what the CPA has to say and interested in learning more about the financial aspects of such, it would be merely an informative thing for me and nothing that I don’t already know the basics about. What does concern me is that they refer to it as a “turnkey” business, in living art – the Arabian horse. This business is far from being “turn-key” and I absolutely HATE the idea that people could just jump on the bandwagon, hang out a shingle and bam, they’re in a profitable business! Gee, how many times have we seen this idea at not-work! I bet people could come on here by the boatload and tell about how knowledgable horse people have gone under…you have to have a passion and knowledge and not be afraid to lose some money in this business. This advertising of this seminar puts me in mind of someone selling a timeshare, not a breathing, wonderful animal that needs an emotional investment. Yeep!
It totally reminds me of the Arab craze of the 1980s (due to tax laws changing – THANKS a BUNCH Reaganomics!!!), though I believe the fad then was for Pure Polish, not Straight Egyptian.
Then the bottom fell out, and suddenly one of the most prestigious farms in the country was donating royally-bred geldings to 4-H kids.
The person quoted did say that the trainer did not want to take the horse to Scottsdale, but was overruled. That suggests to me that he knew the horse was still unpredictable, likely due to his previous handling. I am in favor of giving the horse and his new handler a few more months to work on their relationship, provided Mr. Gales is still willing. If the horse is dangerous due to previous abuse, there is certainly no guarantee that gelding him will change that.
While multiple stories are out there, this one rings true to me. I can see this happening. It appears to me that there is a lot of $$ tied up in this horse and nobody wants to lose it.
I could definitely believe this. My little crippled rescue mare was clearly beaten somewhere along the line as proven by her sheer terror of whips when I first got her. (Now if I’m holding one she believes it must be food!) While she’s generally sane, there is an Arabian trainer at the barn who absolutely terrifies her. I don’t believe that trainer was the one who beat her – but I believe something in the woman’s demeanor or appearance reminds her of the person who did. The terror of reaction to that woman basically erases all training I have done with my horse until she’s out of sight again. Thankfully, in my horse that doesn’t result in aggression – but she’s much more a flight than fight type.
Scapa’s EXTREME dish reminds me of the Arabians I doodled in my middle school notebooks. It almost makes you wonder if besides being abused, he just ain’t right in the head.
Actually it’s probably a combo of past abuse, burnout, no real exercise/horse time, and hormones. Even goofy-looking Arabians are usually pretty smart.
I say it ALL the time – Halter horses shouldn’t be allowed to show unless they are also shown in some kind of performance event. Strip classes have the right idea. The whole Halter Horse industry – in ALL breeds – is soooo messed up, and totally caters to know-nothing owners.
This happens with show dogs too when they get no exercise/real dog-time. They just get burnt out & nasty.
Horses are outside creatures!!!! If you want something that can be kept in a box get yourself a fish
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AMEN!
You forgot option #3. Scapa is a nasty piece of work and there is no saying gelding will fix that… but a bullet will. I’m not saying that is the best option, but given the level of reported aggressiveness and determination in this attack, it is an option that should surely be considered.
You have a point. I have seen very rank colts/stallions be completely cured by “brain surgery,” but I also would NEVER fault someone for choosing to euth. It is up to the individual owner and whether or not their staff feels capable of handling the horse through the transition period.
Yes, many are cured by brain surgery. (Thankfully!)
But I just have to say, I know of one post-brain surgery and he is most definately not cured. It has been two years and two fair, talented trainers since “brain surgery” and his owners have had just about enough. He just left for 90 days with an exceptional trainer (3nd and final trainer) for an “eval.” If after those 90 days he thinks he can help him, great! They will continue to spend the time and money to improve him (if I may add, a very responsible breeder). But if he thinks his brain is still the brick wall that it is now, he may have to cross the rainbow bridge.
It’s a sad thing to have to make a decision like that on a young, well bred/built, TALENTED horse, but sometimes the danger just isn’t worth it. Could you put him out to pasture instead? Maybe, but if you know that someone could be seriously injured if they wandered in to his pen for any reason for the remainder of his life (or heaven forbid he gets out of his pen!), putting him out to pasture probably isn’t the right option.
Not saying that is the case with the stallion featured today! Just saying that it is a sad truth that occurs every once in a blue moon.
Where to start, where to start…
First of all, I’d give the benefit of the doubt to this horse. I’ve been following the story on A Black Horse (another Arab discussion board). His prior trainers have been identified, and seems like the consensus is there are some really bad actors in that bunch. It also seems that Egyptian strain horses do not tolerate this kind of treatment. Please don’t blame the horse. Why? Well, read the next paragraph…
For those of you not familiar with how Arabs are trained and shown at halter by the majority of BNTs and even amateurs – I guess I can boil it down to this – it’s a travesty. Remember Fugly’s post on cruelty a few days back? Halter training and showing for Arabs is exhibit A for bad things that go on in the breed. In order to get that stance and wide eyed look, they beat the ever lovin’ shit out of the horses. That’s the only way to describe it. I have only personally witnessed one or two incidents of this kind of “training” but all you have to do is look at a ring full of quivering horses with welts all over them, who fall down on their front legs to avoid a whip, and know that something really really wrong has gone on in their lives. Many Arab lovers have quit showing because of this. It’s been going on since the early 1980s or so, and while some progress has been made to eradicate it, not nearly enough has been done. It is especially epidemic in the upper reaches of the breed with big money trainers and breeders. Sound familiar?
I’m just guessing here, but they sent this horse to this guy because he has a reputation for being one of the good guys and were trying to re-hab him. Like people with PTSD, apparently horses that have been abused for halter showing can have flashbacks with certain triggers. It’s so bad with some horses that they can never be in a ring again, even under saddle. It doesn’t take much for me to believe that they pressured the trainer to take this horse in the ring (they were doing a lot of promotion during Scottsdale), the horse had a flashback and snapped. Such a shame, but I don’t believe it’s the horse’s fault. Geld him, and he’ll still be a nut case. The damage has been done.
People do report being able to re-hab, but it’s a long and treacherous process.
The optimist in me hopes that perhaps the Arab biz will finally wake up to the disaster they’ve caused by letting this go on, but the realist in me thinks that they’ll write it off to one bad apple and go on their merry, disgusting way. 30 or 40 years of this crap and we still can’t get it under control.
It shames me to own an Arab some times, and this is one of them.
This explanation makes a lot of sense to me, and is consistent with reports that the horse was easy to catch and calm. So it could be 100% fear of being out in the halter ring showing and what happens there, rather than aggression particular to stallions.
I know someone who worked with a stallion that attacked in the show ring – also hired to “fix” him. This person is an excellent stallion handler but it was still a dangerous job. The stallion got consistently good at the home barn – there was clear improvement. Then, one show, fine, next show, did the “shouldering” thing just like this horse – tried to crush the handler. This trainer got the best of him, disciplined him and did not lose control but still, scary as Hell.
As has been noted here, stallions as a rule have less abuse tolerance than geldings or mares. If you hurt them, they will often hurt you.
PTSD is as good an explanation as any.
I’ve seen more than one horse and dog with mysterious pasts who couldn’t tolerate men. Or people who looked a certain way. Kind of pathetic that people are encouraged to “invest in living works of art” that are routinely abused.
Would you take chalk & connect the dots on your $30 million Jackson Pollack, then erase it, then do it again and again?
ooh my god, that’s aweful…I had no idea there is so much abuse going on in these halter classes…I own a part Arab too and I am always so dissapointed hearing that Arabs are crazy, flighty, spooky and dangerous…they can be the most wonderful gentle horses if you give them a chance
Excellent reply MHQ!!
For those who are Arabian Lovers you may know that AHA has tried to tackle the halter abuse problem by changing the show format. They started using score cards which addressed that if the horse seemed intimitaded by its handler it would get negative points. When this system was introduced, Scottsdale threw a huge hissy fit & refused to use it. Why you ask? Because a majority of BNT that show at Scottsdale are the ones using these horribly abusive halter training methods & would most likely rack up these negative points. *Gasp* That would also mean that these BNTs wouldn’t automatically win the class by simply leading their oiled-up, excessively clipped gayrabs.
Scottsdale is a joke & I hate AHA for every year turning a blind eye to all the terrible things that happen there. It’s all $dollar signs$ to them so who cares if the horses are the victims, right?!
In case anybody is wondering, I have seen the new halter judging system work & think it’s a step in the right direction. The judge can be accountable for their scores because it’s publicly posted & it clearly shows if there are any negative points for handler intimidation & excessive grooming.
Good to know about the judging changes – and a step in the right direction!
The new judging system is a step in the right direction, but as long as you have trainers judging trainers at these shows, not much is going to change. They all know that at some point, they will be showing in front of another A rated trainer/judge and/or judging a class with the same colleagues showing. Scratch my back & I’ll scratch yours thing.
As for halter horses going on to a performance career, in the late 80′s early 90′s, AHA passed a rule requiring halter horses to compete and win in a performance discipline to qualify to show in halter at nationals. There was a lovely imported grey mare from Poland one year who won Nat. Ch. mare AND English Pleasure Ch. at the same show. She was an outstanding example of what a true Arabian can do. I can’t recall her name E….something, believe she was owned by Strawberry Banks farm. Back to the rule tho….I believe Magnum Psyche’s claim to fame in performance was a 25 mile ‘endurance ride’ to qualify…. somehow this rule disappeared in the ensuing years, probable due to pressure from the halter big wigs…..go figure….
Having owned, shown and loved Arabians with all my heart for 25 years now, yea, I have seen some horrific inexcusable methods used by others in the halter world. In 1994 I took my mare to be bred to an Aladdinn son who’s get were outstanding. He was being stood at a BNT’s farm in Fla. The BNT wanted to show me his newest halter ‘prospects’ and what he did next horrified me (still does to this day) I had been petting a weanling filly over a stall door as he talked, an he decided to bring her out to show her to me (ie; stand her up). This son of a bitch grabbed a whip, opened the stall door and proceeded to beat that filly and terrify her to the point that she actually tried to escape his blows by trying to jump out the stall window!!! His excuse for using the whip??? She hadn’t been handled much and couldn’t be trusted! I was beyond appalled at his actions. Took my mare home and called MY halter trainer to describe what I had just witnessed, and thanked him for being such a gentle, considerate humane trainer, (thanked God, too, while I was at it)
I decided then and there to “out’ this BNT at every opportunity for his cruelty, and dogged him at every show I saw him at. If he was in the ring showing halter, and was abusive with the whip or shanking, I would yell at the top of my lungs from the stands: STOP BEATING THAT HORSE!!!! Sure, I got a lot of weird looks from others in the stands, but I could not sit silently and watch the abuse. Now this guy was really sneaky, only using the whip when the judges weren’t looking, very calculating on his part. But everyone watching the classes could see what he was doing.
The last time I saw him show, he had a weanling filly in the ring, and popped the poor thing on the front legs so many times with the whip that she actually dropped to her knees to escape the whip!!!! And he still won the class.
What I find ironic in all this is this guy has also judged at the Nationals. Wish I could name names….
What the hell, Eric Wolfe is his name.
I’m 57 years old and it comes to me that I don’t give a shit about ‘anonimity’ any more. if you see this guy at a show being abusive, speak up!! Speak out anytime you see abuse, anywhere. Scream your damn head off!!!
One last observation, and I will get off my soapbox…AHA makes it difficult for the ‘average’ Arabian person to report abuse at a show, the last time I tried to, a mare with obvious whip marks on her body, shown by -you guessed it!- I was informed that to officially register a complaint, I had to cough up $100. (non refundable I might add) on the spot!! Kinda nips things in the bud, unless you are rolling in cash.
Morgan_Horse_Queen wrote: I’m just guessing here, but they sent this horse to this guy because he has a reputation for being one of the good guys and were trying to re-hab him. Like people with PTSD, apparently horses that have been abused for halter showing can have flashbacks with certain triggers. It’s so bad with some horses that they can never be in a ring again, even under saddle. It doesn’t take much for me to believe that they pressured the trainer to take this horse in the ring (they were doing a lot of promotion during Scottsdale), the horse had a flashback and snapped.
This reminds me of something from dogs that I bet also applies to horses (and probably humans):
I’ve done a lot of rehab work with aggressive dogs. In many (not all) cases, there is a point of increased risk and it comes after the dog appears to be better. It is the point where the dog’s fear level has dropped to the point where they can work up close to the thing that was frightening them (other humans, other dogs or whatever) but they still have a lot of fear left and can be triggered quite easily.
The typical thing the owner says is “Fido was doing so much better and then he attacked without warning.” What happened was that Fido was doing somewhat better but not really as well as the owner thought. The owner pushes Fido a little too fast or lets down their guard a little too much because Fido does act better. They don’t realise that Fido is still very close to the edge and very much at risk for that pingpong of terror/rage/terror/rage.
It is a normal, predictable stage of rehab and if you know how to identify it, it’s pretty easy to get through it without anything at all happening. It becomes literally a non-event. The danger is if whoever is making the decisions is a person who is not familiar with this stage and succumbs to the human urge to push things just a little farther or a little faster.
Very interesting, especially since some posters were saying that Scapa had been doing so much better since he was at the new trainer’s place….
That may very well be true, but the anxiety of being back in the show ring caused him to relapse.
I call it “post traumatic halter disorder”
Kudos to you for sticking up for the horse. I do feel bad for the victim (if he is the good person that people are saying he is), but if the horse is a victim too (as the consensus seems to indicate is the probability), then he should not be punished, but instead rehabilitated.
I absolutely HATE when animals are punished for their behavior but humans are not, for example: child torments
dog->dog bites child->dog owners forced to have dog killed->bratty child goes unpunished.
The worst-case scenario regarding Scapa would be for a (by nature, if not nurture) good horse to have his life negatively impacted, unjustly, and humans that caused him to have a problem suffer no consequences, all in addition to an innocent person being hurt. Hopefully that does not end up being the case.
Unfortunately after an incident (such as a dog bite) the argument for putting the dog down is because it is more likely to happen again, and it is. The dog has now learned biting will cause whatever happened to him to stop, Scapa in the same way, is not going to be “safe” to be around ever again. Look up the Orca who just killed a trainer at Sea World Orlando, or the countless circus elephant attacks over the years. You can only push animals & people SO far before they break and learn that negative behaviour on their part will stop negative behaviour on the attacker’s part.
I wasn’t there so I can’t really say anything about what happened. I don’t really know anything about these breeders/trainers either. However, this whole thing just makes me so very sad! I grew up with Arabians and the Arabians I know are not these crazy, “spirited” horses that we are reading about at Scottsdale. The person I bought my first Arab from bred trail horses. She would probably even be considered a byb according to the FHotD standards. Most of her horses had no show points but they all were exceptional trail horses and did very well at CTR and endurance. They had/have BRAINS!! NICE BIG FEET!! and they were not ever CRAZY!! Sure they were spooky and definitely more “hot” than your average Quarter Horse but they were/are smart. I can hardly stand to even watch a lot of the big Arabian shows anymore. Everything is getting exaggerated to the point of absurdity. It reminds me of that saying, “if a little is good then a whole lot must be a lot better.” Some times a whole lot of something is NOT better. Arabians are naturally more spooky (my sister and I like to joke that they just have a lot more imagination than most horses) but naturally spooky/spirited has somehow come to mean crazy, whites of the eye showing, snorting, barely controllable maniacs. (Yes, I’m exaggerating, but I just see it going that way more and more every year.) It’s like WP; it started out with horses that had nice, easy-going, comfortable gates and then before you know it you see horses that look like they are doing some kind of weird crawl-hop thing. Just stop, STOP, STOP, STOP, stop ruining horses all for the sake of a blue ribbon or to follow some kind of crazy ass trend. Makes me wanna scream!
Arabians spook more because they have a larger eye than other breeds, and therefor they see more. Just kind of a fun tidbit of information
*Rolls eyes* Right… & the reason why saddlebreds step so high is because they have coiled-shaped pasterns…
Arabians were originally bred to live in tents with their masters. Don’t think these nomads would have wanted a spooky ayrab with their family in the tent!
I agree that there seems to be this progression in breeds everywhere and it’s worrisome that this is why we have lame looking WP horses. That’s how a normal looking dog got bred to a Bulldog, to a French bulldog – the nose progressively got flatter and flatter. I really love the dished face of the Arabian but in some horses it is so exaggerated, that I think it’s gross and bizarre. I worry Arabians of the future might have a 90degree bend in their noses and be like the flat-faced dogs of the horse world.
I totally agree with you. Looking at pictures, sometimes Arabians look beautiful…and sometimes they look like aliens.
The crazy part is, they TRAIN the horses to be snorty and spooky in the show ring! I ‘rehabbed’ a burned-out country pleasure gelding, and at first he snorted at EVERYTHING new, especially white things. He was TRAINED to act spooky and walk on tiptoe in the show ring. Crazy and stupid, I don’t like straddling a rocket.
However, many are very nice and quiet horses, especially in the performance rings. Although I may not like the way the horses’ heads are “set” (IMO, I haven’t seen a horse that was truly on the bit in quite some time outside of the dressage arena).
They are not trained to spook. It’s quite the opposite. A country horse will go through anything and is required to flat walk on a contact and on a loose rein. A country horse is not “like sitting on a rocket”. A park horse is… and that’s REALLY fun!
Okay, after reading about some of the “training” methods these horses are exposed to I have to admit that even my Arab would be a white-eyed, crazy lunatic. I just don’t get it, though. What is the point? On what planet and under what circumstances would a half-crazy, barely controllable horse ever be useful for anything? I mean horses are just too big and too expensive to feed to not have some kind of job and standing around looking “pretty” is just not a job, IMO. Also, I am 100% sure that if my Arab’s sire had been exposed to some of these halter “training” methods he would have attacked his handler too and I don’t think he would’ve stopped until he’d done some serious damage. I mean he wasn’t a really aggressive stallion or anything but he wasn’t one to just roll over and play dead, that’s for sure. If Scapa really was abused it makes me feel very sorry for him indeed. Not only did he suffer from the abuser physically but if he can’t be “fixed” (either through surgery or re-training”) he very well may lose his life over it. And if he was abused I sure hope someone has the balls to come out and say who did the abusing! I’m sure there are plenty of people who know exactly who did what and if they just sit by with their mouths duct-taped shut then they are part of the problem!
If she was breeding horses that had jobs, did them well, and were in demand, I don’t think anyone’s going to complain. Especially if they’re nice examples of their breed, which it sounds like these were. It’s people breeding too many horses and not doing anything useful with them that pisses FHOTD right off.
This is not on point, and probably appropriate to say but I can’t help myself. If this is Matthew Gales: http://www.brookvillearabians.com/matthew_gales.asp
he is hot.
That is him, and given the crappy week he has had, maybe it will brighten his day if someone tells him the Fugly blog is talking about how hot he is.
well in that case, Hot! I don’t know too many good looking men in Horses, at least here in Florida.
Talk about a hottie! yowzers!
I second that! Very handsome.
Not wearing nearly enough denim or flannel for my taste… =P
Hey, clicked on the link before even finishing reading your reading your post and my first thought was – wow he`s cute. And a cute Brit to boot! So no worries about feeling inappropriate…..
Sounds like a nice guy, too – hope he`s O.K.
Ooooooooh, he is hot
And born in England, too… Cute crooked smile, has a reputation as one of the good guys, took a chance rehabbing a previously mistreated horse, AND sexy accent? *fans herself* My oh my, yes. Hot indeed.
that boy is a tasty snack cake for the eyes. wonder if he likes middle aged fat chicks? LOL
We can only hope. Not sure my husband would appreciate sharing me much, though. lol.
LOl! Yeah probably inappropriate but I agree…a hottie! I somehow pictured a slightly paunchy 40 something….wow, not what I imagined at all!
Agreed.
He’s not bad looking at all, and that plus the confidence that a skilled handler has – yeah.
Hope he heals up quick.
I also hope that he – or someone with his level of experience – is given the decision for Scapa’s future. I hope the horse’s owners will be wise enough to listen to the people who know horses and know their stallion, and take their advice. If they pressured him to go to Scottsdale, though, it doesn’t seem too likely. Maybe this will be a wake up call for them.
Hahaha, agreed!
That picture of Matthew Gales was so not what I expected. For some reason I was thinking of some older gentleman who could get pushed around a little easier. This guy looks like a physically capable, strong, young man. Makes me realize just how dangerous that stallion is; scary! Oh and I’ll agree he is pretty good looking as well.
I’m glad he wasn’t hurt too seriously and I hope he has a quick recovery.
ooo! I agree! Too bad I’m happily married!
I am not usually one to say so, but that is a good looking man! Maybe Scapa was jealous?
Haaaaachaaachacha!
I hope he feels better soon!! (and he is very good looking)
Yowza.
I wonder if he likes Australians… =)
I don’t want to slam any particular breed here, that’s not my style at all, and I have no problem with Arabians. It’s a wonderful breed that contributes many great things to the horse world. And there are too many stallions out there, period. But why is it that a majority of Arabian owners have to have a stallion? Look at people like Tory Morgan….any colt that is born on her property is a “stallion prospect.” And if she was the only one doing it, fine. But you see so many people breed who think every colt that hits the ground is stallion worthy! And yes, I know it happens in every breed…but it just seems to me that it’s twice as bad in Arabians. Where do people get the idea that having a stallion is this wonderful and glorious thing?
Another thing….I think someone was commenting about “what happens when the horse is started under saddle.” Chances are, this horse will never have a saddle on his back. Ever. He is 5 years old, and I did watch the videos. They are composed of still photos and video clips of the horse at liberty, being led around his property, and some of him being shown in hand. In the show clips, the handler is dodging the horse because he is all over the place. It’s my understanding that this is common for halter horses in many breeds….they are halter horses, and that’s it. They’re not expected to be ridden, and are shown for their type. But what is type if you don’t have ridability and trainability?
A horse that aggressive needs to be gelded at the very least.
YES, thank you. What is it with these local type breeders in the Arab world that want to keep everything entire!?!? It is very unique to our industry and very bizarre. We trainers like to cut everything, unless it is spectacular, but the owner who bred “Schmoopsy-Poo” will always argue that he is their next herd sire or that they want to sell him as a stallion prospect because he will get more money that way (not even true). It is so frustrating.
The only way you get a “tax advantge” from your own business, is by claiming LOSSES. The amount of money you lose, is not taxed, which means you still lose money. You might get a bigger tax refund, but you had to spend money all year and lose that money in order to get a fraction of it back in taxes.
That’s dumb. It’s like me saying, hey, you give me $100 now and next April I’ll give you $25 of it back. On what planet is that a good financial decision?
About the only way I can see a horse business being good for your overall finances is on auto mileage, if you drive a fuel efficient car, you get more credit for your mileage than it actually costs in fuel- and the writeoff for a home office. If you’re already heating and cooling that spare room, turning it into an office gives you a small writeoff with little to no added expense.
Of course, if you’re a horseperson and you can have a legit business that allows the horse expenses you would have had to pay anyway, to become tax deductible, that’s different- in a case like that, it does save you money overall, but only if you’d have been spending it anyway.
It sounds to me like that place is just trying to find gullible people to give them money. And they have a CPA friend who is fishing for new clients.
As to the stallion- I wouldn’t pass judgement, until the whole story is out.
I wonder how hard the trainer argued with the owners, if in fact that did occur- if he knew the horse was not ready to compete, and he did it anyway because he was paid to, then he chose his path and I don’t feel all that sorry for him.
I really hope that if there was past abuse, the owners admit it and say who it was- but, unless they have proof, they could be setting themselves up for a lawsuit by publicly accusing a trainer of abuse with no proof to back it up.
My guess is, they’ll stay quiet, get the stud under control, continue to compete him, and then make money off stud fees from people who have no idea any of it ever happened. Either that, or he’ll kill somebody and wind up euthed.
Not true if the loss knocks you into a different tax bracket. The guys who do this sort of thing really know the tax laws or have expensive lawyers to handle it for them. It might seem strange but losing money can in fact save you money…
I see that the people on the Arab Breeders board are worried about being on Fugly’s site!
Dear Arab People:
Just because we read the FHOTD website, does not mean that we aren’t reasonable people. It does sound like an unfortunate event, but I’m sure most of use know that this kind of behavior isn’t typical of the breed. It sounds like this trainer is a good guy, and was hired to try and fix some previous training issues. We all know that some stallions can be rank, and can require careful handling, even with the very best of training. I wish Mr. Gales the best.
I ride an arab gelding who was bred for halter. For whatever reason, he was sold when he was 4 or 5, and he is a lovely, lovey horse to work with. Smart, level headed, sound, and sweet. He loves trail riding, does some jumping, and low level dressage. He can flag his tail and be all high headed and “fancy” like arabs can be, but he can also babysit kids in lessons and on the trail and go for spirited gallops with his experienced owner.
But it really does sound like this particular colt might be better off as a gelding. It’s hard to know if the behavior is solely based on previous handling, but why take the risk, when there are many other stallions out there? As an owner/breeder, why would you even want to market a stallion with this kind of history – wouldn’t that tarnish your reputation?
I am a proud owner and breeder of Arabs, and stallions like that give the Arab breed a bad rep! I have no problem with FHOTD LOL, I myself will pick apart my Arabs flaws. For instances, my Arab mare is slightly weak in the hip. Not severely so, she has a decent hip but it could be alot better. Her head could use a lil more refinement, it’ not quite as dishy as it could be. Not to the extreme mind you LOL, just a lil more refined.
My Arabs are neither crazy nor are they assholes! But when I tell people I breed and own Arabs my horses get thrown in the same batch as this stallion because they’re Arabs and therefore must be crazy! Not everyone is an Arab person and there is not a damn thing wrong with that! But just as people say “stubborn as a Mule” that gives Mules a bad rap, Mules are just as smart maybe even a lil smarter than Arabs. You need ta understand the Mules mind before you EVER get on it’s back! I’ve met alot of sane Arabs that have wonderful conformation but never REALLY win it big, why is that I wonder?????
Is that the current definition of a “beautiful” Arabian?
Because to me, he looks freakishly exaggerated. His face is Just Not Right. Doesn’t even look like a horse’s head.
Wow, those folks over at the Arabian Reader’s Board are really the hush-hush “let’s protect our own” types. Some of their comments about FHOTD were entertaining.
“188 guests reading this thread……… obviously we made it to Fugly horse of the day!!!
Once again the Arabian breed is being tarnished, just what we needed “
I find it funny that they think being on FHOTD tarnishes the Arabian breed and the barbaric training methods for halter horses doesn’t.
What I want to know is if this stallion was a victim of an abusive Arabian BNT. I’ve known and worked with horses that started out as really sweet colts or fillies, and after really bad training and riding, have tendencies to lose it in certain scenarios and show a desire to beat the living shit out of whoever is holding the lead rope. There’s more mild forms of this, too. I think it must be like equine PTSD or something. My mare has some of this, but it’s not exhibited through aggression. She usually comes off pressure just fine, and most of the time, she ties just fine, but if you tie her to a ring on a post that’s part of a fence, especially part of a roundpen or arena, she’ll stand there fine for about five minutes, and then, if you approach her while holding something, you can see her step into a time machine, and all bets are off. She officially panics and forgets anything you ever taught her. I’m certain she’s had a very traumatic experience regarding tying. It’s possible that Scapa isn’t usually aggressive, but the situation was close enough to a moment of abuse in his history that he just went ballistic. If that’s the case, I think his halter career might want to be over, as it’s impossible to guarantee that it won’t happen again, no matter how much work is put into retraining him. In any event, I like to give horses the benefit of the doubt, because abusive trainers are a dime a dozen, but vicious, rogue horses are somewhat rare. Doesn’t make the horse any less dangerous to have around, but it does make them more understandable and less at fault.
Wow. I wrote before reading, and I just said exactly the same thing as 2 or 3 other people. Awesome. Hope you guys like reading the same thing over and over again
My ‘crazy’ breed of choice is OTTB’s, but a relative recently bought a young halter bred Arab filly for showing. These people had zip zero zilch horse experience. Yes, I suggested that this was not a great idea, but I’m not super close with these people, so I didn’t have much influence. The first time I saw a video of an Arab show with this mare, where all the horses were wild eyed and dancing around like freaks, I unthinkingly commented that “those horses have some of the crappiest ground manners I’ve ever seen!”. I was then coldly informed about how the trainers are chasing the horses around with plastic bags and hyping them up outside the ring to make sure they “showed well”, which blew my mind! How freaking stupid is that???? You *can* have a horse that is spirited and forward and obedient all at once, but obedience is a matter of SAFETY and as such should be paramount in training, especially of young horses. Prancing is just flat out annoying to me. It signals that the horse isn’t listening and endangers my toes. And don’t get me started on the stupid emphasis on tail carriage. If you want a flag on the horse’s butt, use glue, a real flag and a dowel and leave the actual tail where it belongs. To me the arab show scene epitomizes the stupid idea that some idealized Barbie-horse appearance is more important than sanity, safety and usability. And it’s just as destructive to the poor horses as the Barbie doll ideals are to young girls’ body image issue. It’s evil.
This mare is sweet, and they do have the sense to have her professionally handled and started under saddle by a good trainer, but I just cannot fathom a complete novice spending mucho $$$$ on a show-bred untrained horse that you can’t even handle yourself. I’m just hoping that they have the sense not to breed her. AGH!!!!!!!!
Tracketeer says: February 24, 2010 at 11:01 amMy ‘crazy’ breed of choice is OTTB’s, but a relative recently bought a young halter bred Arab filly for showing. These people had zip zero zilch horse experience. Yes, I suggested that this was not a great idea, but I’m not super close with these people, so I didn’t have much influence. The first time I saw a video of an Arab show with this mare, where all the horses were wild eyed and dancing around like freaks, I unthinkingly commented that “those horses have some of the crappiest ground manners I’ve ever seen!â€. I was then coldly informed about how the trainers are chasing the horses around with plastic bags and hyping them up outside the ring to make sure they “showed wellâ€, which blew my mind! How freaking stupid is that???? You *can* have a horse that is spirited and forward and obedient all at once, but obedience is a matter of SAFETY and as such should be paramount in training, especially of young horses. Prancing is just flat out annoying to me. It signals that the horse isn’t listening and endangers my toes. And don’t get me started on the stupid emphasis on tail carriage. If you want a flag on the horse’s butt, use glue, a real flag and a dowel and leave the actual tail where it belongs. To me the arab show scene epitomizes the stupid idea that some idealized Barbie-horse appearance is more important than sanity, safety and usability. And it’s just as destructive to the poor horses as the Barbie doll ideals are to young girls’ body image issue. It’s evil.
OMG thank you, thank you, thank you LOL! You have read my mind and put it sooooo much better than I ever could LOL!
Post-traumatic stress disorder in the Arabian horse:
http://www.wiwfarm.com/Post_Traumatic_Stress.htm
Sadly, that article was written in 1994.
I was intivted to the Dubai Gold Cup in Menton in 2007. As someone who shows in H/J as well as IALHA, I didn’t get Arabian in-hand classes AT ALL. The handles would whip their horses while members of the crowd would shake plasic bags and noise makers at the young stallions to get them whipped into a panic indiced frenzy. Then they would go out to be judged. The winner and reseve stallion would then be lined up facing each other until they reacted to each other in some macho way; while a person in a bedouin costume rode around on the only sane horse on the premesis carrying the national flag of the winning horse. It was very disturbing. My friend who had never been to any horse show was crying and really upset that the animals were being abused. The whole thing was pretty awful.
Right. I know absolutely NOTHING about Arab halter training methods. Could someone please detail some of these crazy practices in addition to others already posted – in particular, why it corresponds to what is desired in the class? I don’t have a morbid interest, just trying to understand.
I have seen lots of ugly AQHA stuff, and have reported it as a volunteer at several shows (without knowing how fearsome and scary some of these angry AQHA guys can be – the girls just cut tails off). As a kid, I saw lots of gaited horrors at various fairs (nearly being run over by one poor terrorized hackney bolting out of his stall). I’ve witnessed my (not anymore) hunter/jumper trainer beat a green (and honest) horse to the point his flanks looked like a washboard (owner removed the horse the next day), and untold freakouts in the show ring.
Honestly, I dont understand why people continue to show when things are so ugly. How is this fun? Seems just participating equals condonation. Personal opinion only – absolutely no judgement on anyone here! Am pro-choice!
Geld, geld, geld! NO EXCUSES!
My good friend HAD a really nice IMPORTED Welsh section B stallion. She purchased him from his original importer. After he arrived at her farm he started showing aggression to every other pony on her place. He was in proper fencing for a stallion, 8 feet high and with a hotwire. He managed to mangle his gate and get out. He TRIED to savage another stallion through the fence. She caught the loose stallion. Called her vet, loaded the stallion in her trailer and had him gelded that day. Many people were horrified that she had gelded such a nicely bred stallion. She didn’t care what they thought. Her opinion is that she did the world a favor, this stallion wouldn’t be given the opportunity to hurt anyone or any other pony again. After his brain surgery he went on to be an AWESOME child’s mount. The stallion adjusted just fine. I believe he was 8 or 10 when he was gelded.
Your friend gets the FHOTD seal of approval!
I know nothing about this stallion other than what I just read here. BUT, if this stallion has a history of being aggressive and intentionally tries to hurt people (no matter how good his training is) he needs to have his nuts cut off immediately! Why would you want to pass this disposition and temperament on to his offspring? There are stallions out there that are just nasty mean, plain and simple and you can’t train it out of them…..they need to be gelded. And just for clarification purposes, I truly understand that there are stallions out there who have been mis-handled and have turned aggressive but those can be trained in the right hands.
I just went over to ABN to read up on the topic. They are having a hissy fit, over the fact that Scapa issue made it to FUGLY, They want the person who reported it FUGLY to feel shame. That Fugly is running the Arabian breed into the ground with A LOT of miss information on the incident. Some people are making it sound as though the stallion accidentally fell, in other words making up excuses. How sad, here is an opportunity to teach newbies something. Instead they are playing victim.
Oh for fuck’s sake, you can tell them that a DOZEN people reported it to “Fugly.” These incidents hit my in-box at light speed. They ALWAYS do.
Ablackhorse is the more preferred sight to read up on current happenings in the Arab world, not so much ABN
First… to the one who wanted to attend their tax pointers… no you don’t. I’ve never attended, but spoken enough to those who follow the methods, attended the seminars, and host the seminars to know there’s a lot more tax evasion involved than tax avoidance. Stick with a reputable accountant.
Second… I would not breed to Scapa, but not because he is vicious. He doesn’t appeal to me. I absolutely hate when their mouths don’t fit and in every picture I’ve seen of him, his does not. Any time I’ve taken the time to check it out, the ill fitting mouth equates to some degree of parrot mouth. While a not parrot mouthed horse can look that way in some photos based on what they’re doing with their muzzle, there will be far more photos that show a nice fit when the horse is not actually parrot mouthed.
If I were inclined to breed to Scapa, then his reaction at the show would not turn me off. Most of our behaviour issues with horses are man made… even when the horses aren’t mistreated, something has been miscommunicated and mishandled. I’m lucky to have a great trainer helping me with my stud prospect. Many of the BNT would not be permitted to care for pictures of my horses, let alone the real thing.
I am not an Arabian person, but I do appreciate a beautiful horse. When I looked around on the Paradise website, all the horses seemed to be “blowing”. Even the foals seemed to be breathing hard. Is that typical? My horses only blow when they are out running and feeling good.
I also agree that Matthew Gales is hot.
I have to laugh on the Arab list they are lamenting that they made the Fugly blog.
Wow, the horse on Paradise Farm’s horse business page looks completely deformed! If they breed these horses’ jaws to get any smaller, the poor horses won’t be able to eat. :-/
Hhhhmmm, I know one of the Equisearch people was at the Scottsdale show — I wonder if she saw the incident. It would be interesting to get a first-hand account.
As a fan of the Arabian horse and NOT of how they are shaved, greased, gingered, over-animated for halter showing, here’s something from the Egyptian board, a first person POV:
>> post Feb 22 2010, 01:16 AM
Post #30
There are a lot of malicious rumors circulating other forums about the incident where a trainer was injured. Some are saying that he must have been abusive for the stallion to have attacked him. Others are saying that the stallion is crazy and aggressive. Neither of these is remotely true.
As a friend and client of Matthew’s, I respect his abilities and methods of working with horses. Someone on another forum said, “Unless you are with them every moment, you don’t know what their training methods are.” That is true but you also have to use your own gut instinct as to who you can trust with your horses. Matthew stepped between me and a rearing stallion one time, gave a sharp tug on the halter, looked him in the eye and said “We don’t do that here.” You can tell when an animal is afraid and when he is respectful. The horses I’ve seen Matthew handle are not afraid of him, but they are respectful.
The stallion in question, Scapa, I’ve known since he was a yearling. Matthew has been working with Scapa since last summer, traveling from Scottsdale to Georgia. Scapa was only transported out to Scottsdale in late December. I have seen Scapa every time he has been shown except this one event. Scapa by no means is an aggressive stallion. His favorite thing is to have his tongue massaged, even by total strangers. He is very particular about his women, as there is a very specific mare that he likes and she is the only one who can get him to put on a show! Nor is he crazy. One time he somehow got a rear hoof caught between some stall bars. When they found him he had flipped over on his back and was lying there quietly waiting to be rescued. He patiently waited while they cut the bars to release his leg. His foals are incredibly sweet and love people.
Matthew was released from the hospital yesterday. He does have a scull fracture and is extremely sore but is expected to be okay. Matthew said Scapa bumped his shoulder causing him to fall and that it was an accident, not an act of aggression. If you have ever handled a horse that was nervous about being in new surroundings, you know how they will crowd you, not as an act of aggression, but because they see you as their security. Thus the other two incidents before he bumped Matthew causing him to fall and Scapa to go over the top of him. This is a wonderful horse and a great person who love each other. If anyone can help put a stop to these rumors I’m sure they will both appreciate it.
——————–
Valerie Clinkenbeard
Bloodstone Farms<<
I am glad he is doing better. However, I would bet good money the client put those words in his mouth. Sorry, but a lot of people saw three separate incidents with this horse.
I am sure video will surface eventually. That will answer the questions.
If anybody’s got video but scared to post it, you know who to send it to! resqtb@yahoo.com
This person seems to think that we’re blaming Matthew for the abuse? As far as I can tell, nobody here is (I’m certainly not). It was whoever trained Scapa before Matthew. Isn’t that why Matthew has him in the first place – for rehab?
I made it perfectly clear that I did not believe Matthew had anything to do with the stallion’s behavior. If people cannot read for comprehension (often the case), that’s unfortunate. The rumor is definitely that he had him for rehab. What’s true? Who knows. That’s why we’re discussing it.
He is “way” hot, LOL! I’d be almost willing to bet and agree with the other poster, that something “triggered” this stallion. Maybe, something from his past? Who knows? I’d be frightened though, to give it another go ’round..
O.T. But I’m watching Sade’s new video..has anyone else seen it, beautiful white horse! Soldier of Love..
This is only about the Egyptian Arabians I’ve worked with. Over the summer I trained some straight Eqyptians for a very nice farm in NJ and even brought my own horse over to board there because it’s so close to my house (a percheron sticks out like a sore thumb there haha). I always heard the stories of the hyper Arabians, and let me tell you these guys are anything but. I’ve worked with every sort of horse and these are just a pleasure to teach. You know how you have that one horse that just understands what you’re asking and seems like they can read your mind, imagine a whole barn full.
They love human interaction and will run from the back of the field when you call their name, they pick up skills instantly, and love to be challenged because they get bored. It can be compared to floating when you ride them. and they’re great with kids. And spooky, HA, they laughed at the face in the face of danger! You know how labs are the family dog, well these guys are like the family horse, just a lot more sexy looking then a lab. And the stallions, besides being very handsome, act like good natured geldings and got ridden all the time with other horses with out a care. I have always been a BIG horse girl (thick Quarter Horses, TBs, PercXs) but after I get out of school and I have more time and the loans are paid off I’m getting myself an Egyptian Arabian which I would have never considered before working with them.
Also I’ll say this, I’ve never been one for breeders, but these people love every single one of thier horses the same and realize that you can’t breed 100 crap horses to get 1,000 crappier horses. They have beautiful lines, breed very selectively and rarely, I think the last foal they had is now four, and I’m sure they would love to have a few more, but they realize the market is crap and there are already to many horses and the owner would do anything to see her horses in safe loving homes. I know they used to show a ton but are now getting older, but seeing how I had to jump through hoops in order to show myself worthy of their horses they would instantly fire someone who harmed one (which was fine with me to work with someone who cares that much =) They even rescued this beautiful black colt who was never handled until he got there, or if he was is was very badly and a good deal under weight. That guy had head shy issues, was deathly afraid to be touched, and he would stick up for himself when he felt threatened but only in a warning and never to hurt you. A few months later another trainer who had fallen in love with him had him fully trained on the ground and to ride and loving everyone.
I will never understand the assholes that tra(in)umatize via abuse. Knowing how they almost seem to get frustrated at themselves and act appologetic when they aren’t picking up something right away I don’t want to imagine what they would do if not understanding something meant getting shocked. Would you do that to your kid if they asked for help on their math homework?
As someone who grew up with TB’s and QH’s, the Egyptians are the only ones I get along with. So I will never believe anyone who says they’re somehow mentally flawed. To me, they are the quietest ones!
You know, another possibility is Orphaned Male Syndrome. I think that’s what it’s called. I’ve read about it regarding horses, cattle, and cats, although it’s logical that it affects other animals as well. (The chimp that attacked that woman may have been an example of this.) When male animals are hand raised by humans, whether they are orphaned or weaned very young, they do not develop normal social behaviors and develop rage and aggression behaviors at sexual maturity. They lack fear of humans and can form overly possessive and fierce attachments to owners, female owners especially. Attacks can be unpredictable and vicious. For some reason, female orphaned animals develop the proper socialization with their own species and do not have the same issues, from what I have read.
I think it might be an interesting topic to pursue for one of your posts. Rescuers who raise orphaned foals from the nursemare industry, and those who adopt those orphans would probably have valuable insight. I wonder if geldings/neutered males are exempt from this?
A gelding at the barn where I muck stalls at was a PMU foal, and was rescued by my boss as he was born with a deformity and was going to be left to rot. He wasn’t with his dam for long, and was hand-raised. He is a complete jerk IMO. He had to have surgeries and recover from them and grow up a bit before being introduced into a small herd. They barely tolerate him. He has no concept of personal space (despite constant training and correction) and is constantly reprimanded by the herd for nipping. You have to be on constant guard from biting, and if you reprimand him (like a quick pop in the nose) it just makes him more likely to try to bite you again. As for being outright vicious, I wouldn’t say that he is, because he is predictable. He’ll always try to bite, he’ll always ignore your personal boundaries, he’ll always ignore your aids telling him to move sideways out of that fresh pile of poop you’re trying to scoop. It’s the unpredictability of the attack by the stallion that is more frightening than anything. It’s no fun leading around a horse that would like to latch onto your shoulder with his teeth- it’s even less fun leading around a horse that is a ticking timebomb and you don’t even know it.
As far as I know, that behavior is pretty typical of orphaned horses or horses that have had very close interaction with humans (usually bottle feeding, or other necessary things that aren’t training) at a young age. They think they can walk all over people and since they missed having a mentor growing up, they’re usually horrible in a herd environment. I know a few bottle babies (both horses and cattle) and all of them are pushy, aggressive little shits no matter how good their training was.
True. I have one that is good but he was raised in a herd with a bitchy old broodmare who adopted him – just fed separately.
I will withhold my judgement until more of the story is known, but the problem sure sounds to have been man made to me. If you ask for it, sometimes you get it. Sounds like the current handler got the rage the stallion had for the former handler. In the end, nearly ALL animals could kill us if they wanted to. We are very lucky that so many of them just take and take and take what we give them ( poor care, poor food, poor tack fit, poor handling skills, confinement, neglect, abuse, whatever). Every once in a while, one will push back and we are always amazed. It is more amazing that it doesn’t happen more often.
Poor horse. His brain is probably just fried from all the halter horse abuse that takes place.
I don’t think gelding will help him.
And I LOVE LOVE LOVE Arabians but what the heck are they thinking breeding for a head like that? I LOVE a pretty dished face, but this is NOT what an Arab is supposed to look like. That is just plain UGLY and doesn’t even look “equine.”
He looks like someone sculpted a horse out of clay, and then squeezed and pulled the nose before it was dry. And his foals look even worse.
What is it with people and the drive to take any “desirable” trait and then over-exaggerate it horribly? More is not always better!
I’m sorry that not everyone appreciates a dished face, but if it is so unhealthy, then why are all of the best endurance horses Arabians???
A dished faced is fine. A face dished to the point that there is no room for a nasal cavity is NOT. Why are all the best endurance horses arabian? Because not every arabian breeder… not even every egyptian breeder… breeds for a dog snout.
The breeder I bought my colt and mare from tells of an arabian, extreme like the halter horse fad, brought in for training. It was fine at the walk. It was fine at the trot, but for some reason this horse acted up every time they took it into a lope. The owners were hoping this arabian trainer could help. He took one look at it and knew the problem… the horse couldn’t breathe past a trot. Sure enough, that turned out to be the case. Given that the horse doesn’t have to do much more than act like an idiot in the halter ring there’s no way of knowing how many halter horses are similarly affected.
Moniet el Nefous… and Bint Moniet el Nefous… both had beautiful extreme heads. Their skulls, after they died, looked no different than any other breed of horse. I doubt that would be the case for… say… Imperial Baarez. I like a pretty head as much as the next person, but what I see in so many halter horses is not pretty. And when the mouth doesn’t fit… making the muzzle look smaller… people are oohing and aahhing and lining up to pay 30K to breed to it cause “it’s so beautiful”. Sure, it can’t chew cause its teeth don’t connect… and possibly can’t breath cause it’s got no room for a nasal cavity… but look how EXTREME it’s head is!! You want to see a gorgeous arabian horse… google Rasmoniet RSI… incredible stallion…!
It breaks my heart to see what is being done to our beautiful arabian… and all in the name of fads and money.
I love those Pritzlaff horses. To me, that is the aesthetic ideal of an Arabian horse.
You can over-do anything. Look at collie dogs…bred the nose so damn narrow they can’t breathe!
sorry. I just don’t see anything THAT extreme about this picture. And I am REALLY not an Egyptian person or a halter person. I am also not a sucker for a pertty head (a pretty neck will get me,though). I am strictly performance. I have, however trained many hundreds of Arabians, some with extreme faces and all, and have yet to come across one who couldn’t breathe because of an extreme head. Come on now. Really??? It isn’t like endurance horses are specially bred Arabians; they are the cast-offs from show horse breeding programs. So how is it that they succeed at endurance?
Arabtrainer… I agree that foals look more extreme when they’re younger and go through an ugly stage… this one also has one of those ugly bottom jaws. Even as youngsters their mouths should fit. I find that quite common in the more extreme headed horses. Not all, of course but too many.
When will people learn that you cannot treat an Arabian like you would a QH or a Paint, they are to smart, willfull and will only put up with someones crap for so long before they turn on you! I just don’t get it, I not only own Arabs and Paints but I breed too. But my Arab mare is my baby girl and is a spoiled Princess LOL, she is very sweet and mellow but can have her tudes every now and again LOL! My Arab gelding is a wonderful boy that will take care of an inexp rider and give me holy hell LMAO! But he is also the type that if you abuse him he will for a fact turn the abuse right back on you! I’ve seen Arab stallions that REALLY lived up to the “live in your tent” personality and they were awesome! One is a very well known stallion by the name of Anthem V and I met him at the Scottsdale show last year and he was bein led around by just a regular nylon halter with no stud chain. I got ta pet him and he was the SWEETEST stallion, just loved ta be petted and loved on! Such a sweet and mellow personality, THAT is what a Arab stallion should be and what owners/trainers should strive ta acheive! I am just a BYB, none of my horses would even make it to Scottsdale and I am 100% fine with that LOL! They have good minds, bodies, feet and make AWESOME trail horses LOL! My Arab mare will walk right beside me on a loose lead and I don’t have ta worry bout her doin somethin stupid or crazy, she wasn’t raised that way. She was raised with all the love but firm discipline I have, so she is what the Arab breed is supposed ta be!
Trust me…a lot of QH’s would blow too. It really isn’t just that the Arabs are a sensitive breed.
But it’s nice to hear that super nice review on Anthem V.
For folks who’d like to breed to a show ring winner that sounds like a very happy horse, here’s his page: http://www.mjclassicarabians.com/stallions.html
why do so many show horses end up abused? why is the money lure so strong that people forget about th animals and see them only as means to make money, look good or become succesful?
Why do people kill FAMILY members, like their SPOUSES and even CHILDREN for the insurance money?
There’s a reason why, even in Biblical times, they said that the love of money was the root of all evil.
The first ‘show’ barn I worked at was and Arabian barn in the mid 80′s. Owners had a shitload of Arabian scattered through several barns they owned and they knew not one little bit about horses. Arabians were their ‘status’ symbol and likely a nice little tax shelter too. There were some happenings that I’d really like to forget… Sadly I’ve seen abuse in far too many corners of the equine world and it just makes me sad. Is there no limit that humans will go to to win? It’s is tragic. I hope for the trainer’s recovery and I hope for the stallion’s gelding and removal from a show world he obviously should not and does not want to be part of.
But I do have to say to Fugs… although I might not agree 100% with your blogs… you have an impact on the internet horse world to the likes I don’t think anyone can quantify. I LOVE it when I read- “oh shit Fugs blogged this”, it like calling in the associated press to cover a story. Everyone will know- and knowledge is power and you need power to get shit done
I was an Arab showgroom in my late teens/ early 20′s. I worked for a small farm who kept broodmares at home and a show string at the trainers’. I would work the show’s for the trainer along with 2 of their fulltime showgrooms. My first big show, we took 17 horses from yearlings to the breeding stallions, at least 1/2 were “halter” horses. They specialized in mostly Russian/ Polish lines but there was 1 2yo straight Egyptian colt. The first night of my fist big show we were still working on getting all the horses bathed for the next day it was by then after 10pm. He was one of the last we took over because he was nuts. What was more nuts was the owners’ “rule” about no chain shanks. It was my first experience of a horse being vicious and attacking….i’m not talking about being bit or kicked or pushed over but seriously attacked. The other groom Michelle ended up with 2 front hooves in her face, knocking out most of her teeth, broken upper & lower jaws as wells as other facial bones fractured. I had teased her earlier in the day about how she kept her t-shirt white when the rest of us were totally grungy by mid day, I kept thinking later on about her clean white shirt being soaked with blood. I ended up with the colt, can’t even tell you how I got him back to his stall, I was just screaming for security to call an ambulance. We had an impromptu meeting and the owner decided to go ahead and show the colt. The owners’ wife wanted him shot, the trainer wanted him gelded. The owner promised he’d talk the horses’ owner into gelding him. He didn’t get gelded until the off season and the switch was flipped, I wouldn’t be surprised if he had ended up being a kids horse, the change was that dramatic. I learned a whole new meaning of respect that first season, honestly up till that point was a typical teen with no fears. I was fortunate enough to learn a big lesson without having to pay the price myself.
Scary…but I am so glad to hear that gelding worked in his case. Very sorry for the poor girl who had to go through that accident!
Looking at their “resident horses” page, they have literally a HUNDRED arabians there… How do they keep them all straight??
Hi, thought you might be interested in this:- http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/387/294898.html.
It was an article in Horse and Hound last week.
I was a bit disappointed in this quote “I feel when you show at international level you have to go ‘modern’ as this is what the spectators want.” because as a spectator it certainly isn’t what I want! A friend of mine used to breed and show beautiful arabs at high level shows and did very well, her horses were well handled and sane enough to be hacked out regularly, including on roads. I’m sure she would be appalled at what is going on nowadays. I can’t even bear to watch such a fantastic breed of horse being reduced to this.
Considering that Paradise Arabians obviously didn’t mind their horse being abused for God knows how long (or pressuring their current trainer to show the horse against his better judgement, and resulting in serious injury-hope they feel good about that, greedy assholes), does it concern anyone else that their “Own your own horse business” page points out it’s an “insurable investment” ? I see an “accident” in Scapa’s future.
I’ve known some really nasty stallions, and couldn’t believe they were still whole. Fugs, you may know these guys. Moon Up TC (syndicate owned) who stood in Enumclaw was a TB with a rather unspectacular race record, and threw his nasty temperament to his kids. I had the misfortune of working with one of his colts who was out of one of his fillies – how’s that for really stupid line breeding. Anyway, the little shit would mount your shoulders and he was nasty from the get go. He should have been euthed at week one. We tried everything with him from advance/retreat training (on a foal level) then we got nasty and put him down and sat on his head. He was still a major pecker head. We took him to the winter sale and he mounted the woman I worked with while the JC was taking his identity photos. We warned the people who bought him what a shit he was, I hope he’s in the ground now. The other who comes to mind was a Swedish Warmblood named Godwin. He was a real turd with a parrot mouth. Don’t know why anyone thought he needed to reproduce. He would be trailered in to be collected and he would scream and strike and just carry on. Only had the displeasure of his company for a bit – thankfully, but he just looked like a real ass compared to the other stallions we handled. It seems like as we evolve, we are not becoming kinder to our animals, but even more abusive, all this show talk is really upsetting. I think the word industry needs to be seperated from horse and maybe their world would become better.
Well, look at Storm Cat. I haven’t yet met one that isn’t brain dead and snarly-minded. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not consider disposition when they breed – only performance.
That’s what I don’t get: From my perspective, disposition is half of performance. How are you supposed to train a horse that doesn’t want to learn or work with you? You’ll never get 100% out of a horse if that horse is a snarly, uncooperative, brat. It doesn’t matter how athletic a horse is if you can’t train it.
Fugly- If you would ever go to the Arabian Scottsdale show, you would have material to write for the whole year! Scottsdale seems to make up it’s own rules regarding humane treatment. BNT & big barns will go to any means to win big bucks down there. Arabians are excessively clipped, gooped-up, drugged, over-shod, gingered, & aggresively handled in many of the classes. Hell, they even used to have holding pens set up for young halter horses so the handlers could whip & spook the bejesus out of them before going into their classes! & This was all done with the stewards & show management knowledge!!
It’s own of the reasons why I will never, ever show or support shows on the national level. I’d rather hang up my boots then sacrifice my own morals to compete with that.
Yeah, we’re talking about going next year…I am sure that will be interesting. Although I’m equally sure I could find stuff to talk about at any national level show in any association.
Again, I am not picking on anybody’s breed or discipline. There are bad people, and irresponsible people, along with the good people and responsible people, in all.
Fugly, I look forward to you going to Scottsdale next year. I think that you will be very impressed with the quality of our fine horses and the talent and professionalism shown by most of our performance trainers. You will also see how loving and kind most of the horses are and how loving and kind a majority of the amatures are towards their horses. I find that the best way to dispel the crazy arabians myth is to get newcomers out to ride one of my show horses or to go to a big arab show and see how amazing these horses are, With all that said, I do cringeat the thought of you watching the halter. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don’t let the halter scene make you think that we are all crazy sadistic horse beaters with fire-breathing lunatic horses.
I don’t think that. Seriously, everybody who reads this blog needs to not overreact when the target is their breed or discipline. I’m just calling out the problems – not criticizing the good people. I don’t care what breed it is, if I talk about showing, the horror stories come out. But this is also true when I talk about boarding barns, you know? Everybody has seen bad things that they couldn’t vent about at the time, so they enjoy finally being able to do so.
I think that you may have taken that comment in a way that was not intended. I really would love for you to go because I know that you will be super impressed with our performance horses and trainers. I just feel as though I always have to throw in the “halter warning” to non-arab people who go to big arab shows. Trust me, I am SO happy to see you out DB and all of the sick nonsense that is part of our industry. It really does make me sad when people trash arabs or our shows because of an impression made by these freaks- and unfortunately the only way to change it is to bring attention to it.
Quick Question, would any of you breed your mares to him after this incident? I’m a quarter person but I sure as hell would not breed to any horse after something like that happened. There are too many other great studs to choose from.
Regardless of the incident, I would NEVER pay $4000 for a stud fee. Not EVER.
sort of OT, did you notice that David Boggs won the 8 and up Stallion division with LD Pistal? yes, the LD Pistal this LD Pistal
LD Pistal debacle
THAT’S what you Arab people should be ashamed of. THAT.
I can speak for myself and my best friend, we both think that David Boggs should NEVER be allowed ta own or show any horse for the rest of his life! He has dealt the Arab breed a huge blow with Magnum Pysche! That horse is not real, meanin he is man made. David had surgery done on that horse ta make him look the way he does! I LOVE Padron Pysche, and Padron himself was a STUNNING stallion that makes me drool LOL! I still can’t fathom why AHA is STILL lettin David Boggs show Arabs??????
Fugly, I often agree with you. I appreciate that you started this website to point out abuse. That said, I think in this instance you’ve opened yourself to a lawsuit from the owners of this horse should they prove your remarks harm this horses value. The burden of proof that this stallion “trampled” his owner, is yours.
There are posts from people who witnessed this event who have said they couldn’t tell what happened. In every case that I’ve seen a stallion go after it’s handler their ears were pinned and their teeth bared. It was very clear they were out to get the handler. There have been a number of reports from people who were there and saw this “trompling” that stated this stallion never pinned his ears or bared his teeth and was easy to catch after he got loose. I found no post that said differently. IMO those two facts should have stopped you from posting this because the implication is just as great that this was an accident.
I think you did the breed a great disservice by posting this information.
Carol
Oh, and I get threats of lawsuits pretty much daily – I’m very used to it and confident in my ability to handle it if anyone actually went through with it!
I look forward to your public apology should the video come out and prove it was an accident. You can look forward to mine should the video show it was deliberate and the horse attacked and trampled the trainer intentionally.
Well, I’m interested to hear by which means you believe you can determine the horse’s intent – heck, it is a challenge to answer that question in a court of law regarding human behavior – but we always welcome updates here and I will of course update if we get video that shows the horse simply spooked, barged into the handler and that was it. Of course, I’ll also update if we get video that shows the horse shouldering him into the ground. You seem to be describing the incident as one where the horse bumped him and he fell down as a result, and there seem to be an awful lot of people who say otherwise. Were they all hallucinating?
ETA: Last time I was at Scottsdale, everybody was drunk. So who knows…
I should ad that I have no dog in this race. I don’t know the horse, the owner’s or the handler. My point is that this kind of posting, without proof, damages our breed. Our breed is in trouble(as are a number of breeds) and we don’t need the bad press of an event where people have differing views on what took place.
Please be responsible and post only what is fact. Please do not post rumor and innuendo.
This blog has always been a place to OPENLY discuss things…they may be rumor, they may be fact, but the truth generally comes out with OPEN discussion.
I’m not picking on your breed any more than I’m picking on MY breed when a HYPP horse falls over in the show ring.
Cecilia, stop and think for a second about what you said here. This post is about an incident which happened in front of thousands (?) of eyewitnesses, plus was surely recorded on video by many of said eyewitnesses. There’s no question that this horse’s behavior absolutely was the direct cause of his handler’s injuries. It is not libelous for someone to speculate on possible reasons why the horse felt the need to do what he did. It just so happens that one particular person’s interpretation of the event is unflattering, unapologetic and widely read. You (and probably lots of other people) don’t like that and it’s just too bad. Get over it.
Do you really think there’s a court anywhere in America, the Land of the Free, that’s going to punish someone for expressing their own opinion?
I’m sorry, but this has to be the lamest reason ever for not discussing abuse. So arabian horses are in trouble? Ever stop to think that it might be the result of not only exaggerated breeding but also training and handling practices that are laregely abhorrent? Sure those problems exist in other breeds and disciplines, but as someone who used to show arabians (but refused to show in halter classes), I’m willing to admit that it’s a problem in the Arabian world. Instead of denial, it would be nice if some self-policing went on instead.
Off Topic, but wondering if there is anyone in MO, specifically near Bonne Terre that can check this out, it just doesn’t look good. The guy is apparently a farrier too. Why, why would anyone post a picture like this anyway? Does he think people are stupid?
http://www.nokotahorsesforsale.com/catalogue_more.php?&search_fd0=162
Especially with the grey horse in the background standing like it’s foundering…
In the 90′s I worked for a western arab trainer and we were stabled next to a small indoor arena that the halter “trainers” liked to use late at night. One time a “trainer” was schooling his horse by antagonizing him until he would try to attack him and his “helper” had a rope on him and would flip him over and then he would get up and they would do it again. Since i was young and shy I didn’t say anything to them but I did go find a show steward, who took his sweet time getting back there and they were already gone. The stewerd said I could pay a fee and file a complaint but it would be my word against theirs. If that happened today things would have turned out a bit different….
I bought an ex halter that was ten and not started under saddle and everyone said I was crazy that she couldn’t do it but she was great at home and shows. The only thing she did at shows was she would get nervous when I was getting her ready to show until I put her saddle on and then she would let out a big sigh and be fine. She had scars from a chain all over her jaw. She was trained and shown by the Big time “trainers”.
My mom had a horse that I think was shocked standing in water. He was a halter horse when he was young. He was terrified of the wash rack but fine to hose off outside.
This post made me think back to my college days. I saw all sorts of “rank” stallions at the college I went to. One was a beautiful overo paint halter stud who was KNOWN to pin down, bite, and strike his handlers… I was asked to lunge him one day in the round pen because I was really good at round-penning rank horses and getting them to like me. I went in with a lot of trepidation as a 5’4″ 100lbs stick of a woman vs. Mr. 1500lbs 16.2hh halter stud… But by the end of the session he was following me around completely calm, licking, chewing, eyes relaxed, head below is withers, with no halter or lead rope… then his regular handler came in, the stallion immediately tensed up and was back to his old ways. I would never have trusted that stallion 100% but he became my “friend” that day. Sadly he died a few months later when he got cast in his stall over night.
I saw many young stud prospects and nice stallions get ruined at that college and they ended up sending my favorite mount to slaughter because she would only let me ride her without trying her darndest to get her rider off… I just spent a few days doing trust training, and she would do anything for me, never once did she try to buck me off… I was also their “rehab” rider because we would get in tired, worn out cutting and western horses, put little ol me up on them with a prissy “english” saddle and a snaffle bit, and OMG the horses would perk up almost immediately! I’ve thought about offering such services in the future for tired-out show horses.
Yeah, I left that college after a year… and I’m definitely NOT a miracle worker with horses, and I have too much going on in life now (such as a baby and husband, lol) to even WANT to work with stupid horses anymore. But I would LOVE to get back into riding on a more regular basis, maybe even as a job (right now I’m a stay-at-home-broke-$$$-wise-to-death-mom!)… so I can get a horse of my own!
eerr i ment to quote “prissy” not english! sorry!
I was getting worked up thinking back to my college days!
by the way, they’re talking about FOTD on ABN like you are trying to tarnish the arabian breed. i see nothing in your reporting that looks like tarnish, simply fact and opinion. you equally point out the atrocities in the AQHA worl.
Everybody agrees with me until I have something to say about THEIR breed or discipline. I think I dish it out pretty evenly among all, don’t you?
At what point do we get to give up on the current breed registries? We have:
corrupt breeders
corrupt trainers
corrupt show participants
corrupt judges
corrupt managers
corrupt administration
The breeds tend to support/ignore slaughter, shush news of genetic diseases, support non-sustainable traits (e.g. tiny feet), and often make identification for rescues terribly difficult. They don’t crack down on abuse.
Breed registries don’t OWN the pedigree information. They may own their copies of it and restrict access, but you cannot patent information.
I can only hope that in my lifetime (I’m late 20s now), I get to see a new breed registry show up that competes with the mighty AQHA. Maybe something where the shows are like dog shows where you compete first against your breed in a discipline and then the top breeds go to best in show, with one spot in that reserved for grade horses (giving those of us with unregistered rescues a chance)- conducting “grade” as though it were a breed.
Horses would be inspected like in warmbloods, requiring approval to become breeding stock for registerable offspring. Inspection at shows, licensing of trainers and judges, and all the good practices that so many are WISHING for. And how about a searchable database that’s not horrible because the AQHA’s is crap.
Not just Egyptians, but Arabians in general can be seriously damaged by mistreatment. They are too smart to just accept it, and they do not suffer fools gladly. They can go nuts, or just shut down completely, or become aggressive when exposed to the possibility of further abuse.
Scapa is not the first horse to learn to associate the halter show ring with a need to “get them before they get you.” Even a handler who has never mistreated the horse can be in danger in an atmosphere with a lot of “wired” horses, handlers using their whips, and the general atmosphere that prevails.
So this horse probably does not deserve death, and gelding probably isn’t necessary, either. Just a very long, if not permanent, vacation from the show ring. Properly handled, his foals are unlikely to be dangerous.
As for the mistreatment of halter horses, Arabian owners can be just as misled by a BNT as any other breed — less so these days of the internet, of course, but it still happens.
Ah — and a final comment, this one regarding Arabian foal heads: A foal that will have a beautiful head will look almost grotesque at birth. It will have what seems an almost impossible jibbah and dish — because it will have a very short head. The longer the head is at birth, the less dish it will have a maturity. You learn to look at the potential in a baby’s head!
Scapa, however, has both a very long head, particularly below the eye, and is “elk nosed — the bump above the nostrils that makes the head look more dished than it is.
There was a stallion at my old yard for training – he came there a few years in a row, for a season. Pure bred Arabian, gorgeous, won most of the championships going. One time, a beginner woman was swopped onto him during a large group outride at the stables (30 horses including mares) because her own horse was being naughty.
He never put a foot wrong – until one day, in his late teens, he turned on his owner and literally savaged him so badly he was in hospital too.
I don’t know if there was more to this story than meets the eye, or whether this was a stallion thing, or whether it was an Arabian thing. Either way, it happened, and this story certainly has many similarities!
I’d say that you’re right on the Matthew Gales dude not beating him, if what you’re saying is true. However, I used to own an Arab who had been trained for halter in the breed shows…I had never done it with her, and this mare was sweet, willing and responsive under saddle, she was quiet quiet quiet and “bombproof” (as much as any horse can be, I can honestly say that she only ever spooked once on me). Anyway, I decided that I’d like to try showing at the breed shows as well as the hunter and open shows. I bought her a show halter and the first time I tried it on her she went ballistic! She didn’t attack me but she literally shrunk, she started sweating and blowing and was shaking uncontrollably, I felt terrible. It was obvious that she associated the halter with some nasty abuse…maybe the stud in question does too?
I don’t personally know the horse, but I do know Brookville.
1) The pic makes this horse look more extreme than he really his. Oh, the magic of getting the right angle. I have seen Scapa (in a stall, not out and handled.)
2) It’s very likely he’s been abused by a previous trainer/handler. That has happened a lot in this industry. I’m sad to say I’ve seen it, and had to have big fights with trainers about their “techniques”. There’s a big difference between a correction for poor behavior and beating a horse.
3) This isn’t the first scary incident at Scottsdale. This isn’t the first time horses or people should have been removed.
4) Arabians are becoming divided based on pedigree. Some horses are not bred to be ridden. Sad, but true. I don’t like it, but I’m also not a breeder. We’ve begun to prize specialization of discipline from birth over a sound horse. You see this at the upper 7% of the breed, though.
I will look into Scapa’s past, as I have lots of connections to this part of the world. I bet he was started by an old school trainer who was too much for this horse. Arabians aren’t a forgiving breed. They hold grudges, they do not forget people who have been cruel. I will post again when I have more info.
We have five stallions in training here, including a colt who was brought to us after he tried to clock his owner in the show ring during a halter class. I can tell you that re-habbing even a youngish colt that has not been handled properly was quite a project. Even for a professional trainer. He’s a sweet horse, but he’s kinda like an alcoholic and will always be ‘in recovery’, never ‘fully cured’ of the behavior. That one was salvageable because his issues were around having been spoiled as a baby (and therefore not knowing manners) and having gotten the upper hand on humans as he got older/larger and because he was young. I can’t imagine trying to rehab an older stallion who is actively seeking to protect himself against what he perceives to be an attack from his handler! And I second all the comments about the halter foolishness on Arabians. I had someone offer to give me a Arab yearling with Magnum lines. When I went to the farm to see him, the owner pulled him from the stall and began whipping him up with the end of the line to show me his action and yanking his head almost vertical to show me the line of his neck. I mentally left the farm immediately, and my body followed about 15 minutes later. What a travesty.
Having seen the Arab halter shows, all I can say is the handling style breaks every rule of stallion handling I’ve ever been taught or personally used. You never let a stud get all the way out to the end of the lead, particularly running about in a ring full of other stallions doing the same thing. You have no control, and they can position themselves to hurt you from any angle. You cannot ‘feel’ them, or anticipate their actions before they escalate. You cannot stop the accident before it starts, which is critical when handling something that big and explosive. There was an excellent book called The Stallion, written several years ago by James P. McCall PhD in which he detailed the rehabilitation of Executive Officer, a very rank TB stallion who had killed at least one handler. Rule number one is, no matter how sweet or well trained your stallion may be, you can never trust them. They’re not bad, they’re just subject to the whims of testosterone. If we the human handlers cannot protect ourselves by following the rules, meanwhile protecting the stallions from their own God given nature, we have no business handling them. It seems to me as if this horse, through poor/abusive handling in the past, and by being put into a situation where his handler (and owners through their naive insistence) protected neither the horse nor human, acted as his nature dictated. Whether it was PTSD or not, his humans failed him. If the decision cannot be made to change his lifestyle, give him time away from everything, and a chance to start all over again (and this means NO breeding), then the kindest course of action is euthanasia. But he will have died not because he was a bad boy, but because his people failed him. And that is a tragedy.
Well, that is just what the Arabian world needs–more owners/breeders in it for just the business.
The horse may indeed have had a totally understandable melt down from PTSD (or whatever the horsey equivalent is). And that speaks volumes for the problems in the breed. Only time can truly tell that story and we may never know that story.
The whole thing is a train wreck.
sagebeasties.blogspot.com
That is a sad story for sure. I feel for the horse, I’m afraid it’s too late for him, even if he is gelded. And wether it was abuse that pushed him this far or he’s just a roque stud, is a mute point now. He’ll be painted with that brush from here on in.
When I was little my uncle bought me a shetland foal. My father being of the old school sort (and without regard for his childrens safety apparently) kept everything on the place entact. My little Sandy pony was a beligerent little asshole and would go at you with the front feet, chase you, etc. My father cut off the end of a hockey stick, attached a snap, so I could lead him and keep him away from me at the same time. Nice huh. But to get to my point…regardless of his dispostion we used him ALOT. Drove him, rode him, put him in the swimming hole and used him for a diving board…on one of those days, for some reason (had enough of us), he came undone. He put me down on the ground and wouldn’t let me up…he didnt hurt me or go at me with his feet, but he stood over me and I couldn’t flinch or he’d knock me down again. My friend ran home and got help but he stood over me until my Dad arrived…probably 20 minutes later. I believe he would of been a great little gelding given the chance, but he never was. My Dad sold him at auction when I was 12 and I cried for 3 days. That was 3 decades ago and I can still cry, loved him that much.
And then there was my aunt’s horse, QH that was foaled at her place…that jerk hit the ground thinking he was all that and a bag of potatoe chips…she had him gelded at 10 months old and he was every bit the AHole afterwards. She poured a ton of money into training him and he got to the point where a VERY high level rider could handle him, but she never even stepped up on him. So I do believe that some are born that way, but most are made that way.
How shocking! Not really. Let’s see, you have a horse kept in a stall, (can’t have any marks or messy mane) 23 hours a day, turned out by himself, (no socializing) fed like a king, but exercised very little, (an hour a day is not exercise, that is a warm up for a stallion) but constantly expected to be on the road and perform.
Whoda thunk he would lose his mind over THAT kind of life? What horse wouldn’t want to live like that???
I feel bad for the handler who took the brunt of this horse’s frustration. it doesn’t necessarily have to be from abuse other than the abusive lifestyle these horses have to endure. Assuming there was no “real” abuse, if someone would have ridden him an extra 2 hours or so a day instead of washing and primping over him, he might have been a little happier to perform.
Or maybe he should have been gelded and just used as a beautiful trail horse
Lisa Salas, the odd farm
I would vote for past abuse and something causing the stallion to have a literal flashback to said abuse. It might have been that the abuser was standing by the rail wearing his favorite aftershave and the handler was simply the person handy to attack.
I don’t believe ANY horse, whether it has balls or not, ‘melts down’ without a reason…and if the current handler didn’t give him one, somebody else did. Horses have remarkable memories. I used to be very fond of an old school pony and gave him a treat at fairly regular intervals. Then I went away for three months. When I came back, that pony was leaning over the door, whickering at me, begging for a treat…and he was NOT the kind of pony who did that to everyone. He remembered me as a total sucker for his utter cuteness.
Having said that, I *do* think this horse should be snipped. It might help, and there are plenty of other gorgeous grey Egyptian stallions out there. I think he will be far easier to rehab without the testosterone.
It’s also possible he’s ruined. I mean, I know a mare who was abused about a decade ago who STILL has issues. It’s heartbreaking to watch when she’s turned out in the arena and somebody’s by the gate and she does this whicker, step forward, leap back thing…where she clearly *wants* to make friends but is terrified to do so. She’s taken chunks out of multiple people, and commonly has to be muzzled to be handled…but she’s great under saddle most of the time, is a lovely little jumper, so its worth dealing with her quirks…but it’s still painful to realize that this little mare SO wants to trust her humans, but even after years of not being beaten, she can’t. She wants to, its obvious, but she can’t.
I just about laughed out loud when I read through the Arabian Breeders board. When a few people posted that they were pissed that someone reported this to you and you were “blowing the entire situation completely out of proportion” I just lost it. Honestly, nothing in this blog is “out of proportion”, you just reported the fact that an Arabian Stallion went a little nuts and trounced his handler.
Thanks for the blog Fugs, I really think that you’re efforts will help reach everyone and help change some of the practices that lead to horses being reduced to absolute nutjobs. Keep up the good work.
I think it is hard to blow something out of proportion when a human being has already landed in the hospital thanks to a very public display of equine bad behavior. What proportion would be appropriate?
Morgan_Horse-Queen said it all. However, I believe that gelding this stallion and giving him some time off to be a horse, then a fair consistant handler would do the trick.
The arab show world should be horrified at the continued abuse of these beautiful creatures. With 6 intact stallions here today ( the day is always young ) I can assure you that stallions can and should be maintained, trained, bred and shown with consistant, fair methods.
BTW, our Fjords conformation scores include temporment in an NFHR Evaluation. In Norway, any show of aggression like that would have that stud removed from the breeding pool and shipped to France in a can. Just saying.
I would give the horse the benefit of the doubt and send him immediately to a trainer who trains with empathy, not cruelty. I had the privilege of caring for a stallion which a friend took on after it physically attacked his handler. This was a world champion and #3 on the sire list in N.A. The horse was a neurotic mess, self mutilated. Within a week he was a pussycat to handle (no chain). I could ride him bareback. I also attended a clinic many years ago given by a “top trainer”. A stallion he had shown in earlier years was brought out for him to demonstrate with. The horse broke away and then went straight for the “trainer”, ready to kill him. This horse was absolutely safe in all other scenarios. They have long memories!
This is a completely different subject, my apologies.
I just received an email from a local rescue group who had all of their equipment stolen, and they can’t afford to replace it. Our local news did a story last night. I thought I would mention this in case people have extra equipment they can donate. I have seen this group doing car washes etc. and they do an amazing job with their horses on an extremely tight budget.
http://www.komonews.com/news/problemsolvers/85172447.html?tab=video
I am very familiar with this rescue and they get two thumbs up from me. Please do help if you can!
Back in the mid 1980′s I went to an open horse show sponsored by the Space Coast Arabian Assoc. I had never been to one of their shows before but they had barrel racing so there I was. The barrels was next after the arab halter class so I was in the warm up pen walking around. This “lady” came in with a pretty arab and prceeded to snap a whip at him. It scared the begezzers out of my horse because he had never seen that kind of behavior. He spooked away from her and that woman made a remark about getting my stupid barrel horse under control. I never went to another one of their shows.
And it is such a shame because arabs are so beautiful.
Sadly, this situation doesn’t surprise me. Because my first exposure to the Arab show world was so bad (this happened at the only Arab show my parents’ farm ever hosted), I have stayed as far away from it as I can. I don’t have a problem with the horses at all; but good heavenly days, at least half of the owners, trainers, riders, and handlers I saw needed to be put on a desert island as far from horses as possible. The first classes that I saw were the halter classes, and I would have been deeply embarrassed if I had shown a horse acting as uncontrollably as the halter horses generally did, esp. the stallions. There was one horse that even broke away and got loose…..in a *halter* class!!! I couldn’t believe it. I almost got run over by another stallion who was allowed to run to the end of his lead and wheel around. He looked and behaved more like a trout on the end of a line then a fairly decent looking Arab stallion.
What really fried me though were the junior classes or whatever they’re called. There were children—little, little children (a couple might have even been under 8, but they were all under 10)—put on horses that couldn’t even be controlled on the ground. I didn’t understand at first why there seemed to be extra ring stewards for the class (they must have been provided by the Arab folks since they were not part of our show crew), but I very quickly realized that they’re there to go to the head of any horse that starts acting up. During the class, every horse got at least one visit from one of these stewards. On top of that, I sat and listened to the parents who were hanging on the rail literally WRINGING THEIR HANDS with anxiety about what might happen to Little Johnny and recounting to each other past bad experiences (i.e. falling off, runaways, etc.). What parent does this?!?!?!?! What trainer allows this?!?!??! What show industry allows this!?!?!?!
I’m not Arab-bashing in the least. I’ve always loved them and thought they were awesome horses. I even owned a half-Arab for 22 years (he was put down last spring), and he was probably the best horse I’ll ever own. I also know that there are some very competent people who show at the Arab shows. I did even see some of them at this one show I experienced. However, I find it inexcusable that judges wouldn’t penalize or excuse a horse from a class when it is clearly out of control. A little excitement is one thing. Complete and constant disobedience (particularly when it puts minors and others in danger) should never be tolerated. And the thinking behind allowing such horrid behavior just because you might win some ribbons is awful. The bad behavior of the horses only exists because it is either taught or allowed to continue. I have no doubt that most or all of those horses would have been completely different animals in the proper hands.
BTW, the behavior of the bad trainers/owners/riders/handlers completely matched that of their ill-behaved horses. I actually got yelled at by one handler and chewed out by another for absolutely nothing (I was in charge of sending horses from the warm-up to whichever ring they were scheduled to show in). And about half of them were the biggest prima donna cry-babies I’ve ever seen. So, it’s really no surprise that their horses behave so horribly.
Again, if you show Arabs and are thinking this doesn’t describe you or your horse, you’re right….there were some GREAT competitors there. Unfortunately, it’s the bad apples that leave the really horrid lasting taste in your mouth…. I hope Matthew Gales recovers quickly and fully.
It’s unfortunate that your first, and apparently only, experience with Arab show w/t was a stressful one. I’ve been showing on the circuit for over ten years, and I have only seen one horse behave poorly in a w/t class. The horses behavior was a direct result of a child losing her mind and screaming because he was trotting a bit fast for her tastes.
And that’s why I don’t agree with the FHOTD showing requirements for stallions. If you can breed healthy, well tempered, athletic horses for trail riding, 4H, etc, and sell them for reasonable prices to people who will love them and not go bankrupt doing so, I think that’s greatly preferable to inbreeding for the latest trend, training all the natural talent out of them, and then trying to sell them for outrageous prices to cover your entry fees. Pshhh.
You can get healthy, well tempered and athletic horses using the same horses that win at the shows, and they have a higher value and are more likely to stay out of kill pens.
Unfortunately I don’t think this breeder is the person to prove your point. I was 15 when my Mom bought my Arab gelding from this lady. We were less than clueless and looking back I realize how extremely lucky we were (and lucky our horses were) b/c this breeder, while a byb, did breed very high quality horses (good conformation and good dispositions). In fact there was a gal who brought her “show” horse to board with her once. I’m pretty sure this mare was probably a cull from a big breeder in the area but even so our horses had so much more quality it was kind of pathetic. But you know she still had a very hard time selling her horses. I remember her complaining once when she heard about some other Arabs in the area selling for such and such amount of money and how she couldn’t even get a significantly lower amount for some of hers. Even back then I thought right away that it was b/c most of her horses didn’t do anything. I mean she was one person with at that time probably 15-20 horses, three of them stallions. The vast majority of them really were nice horses but most people want to know that the money they are spending is worth it. And the way people know that is through records of a horse’s accomplishments.
I will say, however, that I think she started out correctly. One of her stallions and a couple of her other horses had loads of CTR miles and even quite a few national wins and if she had kept her business very small, maybe only a foal or two a year or every other year or something then I think she could have been very successful. But even that doesn’t exactly prove your point b/c while CTR isn’t in a lot of demand and is not that well known it is still a way of tracking a horses accomplishments same as shows and national wins are impressive.
It’s a shame really. I haven’t seen this person in quite a while b/c we’ve moved so many times but I still think about her and wonder how she’s doing. I’m kind of afraid to find out with the way the economy is right now.
Oops, that was supposed to be a response to asharri.
I saw 2 separate comments, the first from a woman named Nancy Pierce – post #259 at the first link- and the second from a friend of the trainer named Valerie Clinkenbeard at this link http://www.discussion.egyptianbreeders.com/index.php?showtopic=2289&pid=51717&st=20&#entry51717
They both have positive things to say about the trainer and both indicate there may not have been any aggression (at least the first time there was contact.)
I definitely think from what I have read that the trainer was not to blame in any way.
I haven’t read the comments just yet but I just had to say about this (right quick cuz my babies are waiting…)
Several years ago a friend of mine worked at an Arabian breeding/ show barn. She took me and my husband on a Sunday tour once to show us the place (big, fancy, owned by a sheik or something) and there were several barns to walk through. The stallion barn was just frightening for anyone not knowing horses and upsetting for those of us who did. The stallions were never turned out- ever. They actually climbed the walls, biting at the sprinkler system pipes, biting at the walls, the bars on the stalls. They were so totally wired for sound it was awful to witness. My friend said that many of those horses were terribly inbred and pretty much nuts-o. Once in a while they would have a foal that did not meet their expectation of confirmation and would give it away. My friend said they should do it a favor and euthanize it before someone would think they could make another coo-koo.
It was sad to see what that industry does for the show and how they abuse their animals for the hype.
It seems to me that this poor animal could use some “down time” so that he remembers what it is like to be a horse. Often show horses of any discipline are so push, pried, poked and over handle that they just get sick and tired of it. There are those that just need a break! A friend of mine brought her reiner stallion to my facility after he had been in training for 3 years solid. He was pushy, and unhappy. We stalled him, talked to him, brushed him, turned him out and let him relax. Within 2 weeks he was a totally different horse. Each one is of course different, but this looks like a clear case of “burn out” on Scapa’s part. Will it “fix’ him? Time will tell, but at least it is worth a try. Lots of turn out, low level handling and time may be just what he needs. If it doesn’t help, cut those circular things off and see how that goes. If it still doesn’t help, a one way trip to the vet could be in order. I hope the handler recovers quickly and completely.
Totally OT but I found out something amazing yesterday… I was job shadowing a very big name vet, and he does a lot of embryo transfers, and I was wondering where he got his recipient mares from (because they were doing 40 just yesterday, he has a huge herd of them), so I asked. And the other vet told me he gets them from auctions to save them from going to slaughter. It made me so happy to hear that
And they told me all the other vets he works with in this area (since he’s an expert in reproduction) do the same thing.
And you should have seen these mares. They were all at the perfect weight, and most looked like they had good enough conformation to have been nice riding horses, and a few even had old brands on them. They just get to sit around in a pasture and have other horses babies until they’re too old for owners to want them to be used as recip mares, and so when they’re no longer useful to them he sends them out to ‘the ranch’ (no idea where that is or if he was using it as a euphamism for putting them down).
Either way, it was really cool to see someone doing that. Of course, then the other vet decided I needed a lecture on the current horse overpopulation… lol.
Awesome!
Um, at several of the biggest ET places I know “back to the ranch” = back to the auction/or more likely, direct to the kill buyer. Sad but true. Kudos to any that will simply euthanize and render, but that has not been my experience.
Around here the ones that don’t get pregnant on the first try are usually sold to people for a couple hundred dollars.
While the vet is doing the right thing, I don’t think it’s necessarily for the right reason. A breedable mare in any condition will probably cost anywhere from $200-500 and up from a private party. At an auction, a whole trailerload of them can be picked up for that much.
Might I ask not the name of the vet per say, but the area/city you are in? I ask because if its Ocala, Fl…
My mare was an ET or reset mare that had been shipped from Equitransfer in Ocala. She was branded with their brand, and given an ID number, also branded on her. The person I got her from purchased her from ET after she had a Paso Fino embryo implanted into her, then after “Mama” took, she was shipped from Florida to Scottsdale, Az.
The reason she never went back after the filly was born (and why the prior owner purchased her) was to prevent her from going to slaughter after she got shipped back. They aquire their mares from auctions to start with, yes, BUT after they have ‘done their bit’, and had several babies, they get sent right back to be sold to the KB’s in FL.
The main vet that works for ET is also known to be a very hard headed, money driven, corrupt, and mean idiot. How do I know this? My mare was shipped with at least 6 other mares that were re set mares coming out here to Phoenix/Scottsdale. They were all going to different ‘owners’ that had all had their mares bred at the same time, and all were in the same group. I was an employee of her prior owner, and these other owners were all her friends. Each and every one of them spoke badly about this vet for different reasons, about how corrupt he was, and how his public image was not the same as his private personality.
My mare, btw, came to the prior owner terrified of people; as did every single one of the other horses. Each of these horses had to undergo weeks of ‘trust training’. While still in FL, the PO spent just the first two weeks with her trying to get HER HALTER ON HER. This was after she was handled by vet staff.
She had spent a year and a half with the PO before I purchased her, and by that time she had come out of her shell, so to speak, but still had some major issues. I was in the middle of working them out with her when my situation changed, and I had to give her up (she went back to PO).
Forgive me, but if it is the same vet, I don’t believe that he treats his horses very well …. I’ve SEEN, WORKED WITH, and BELIEVE proof otherwise.
Can someone please explain to me how transferring embryos to 40 mares in one day can be a GOOD thing ???
Did I go into a coma and the serious horse over population ended?? Am I misunderstanding this post??
And using mares rescued from the auction / kill pen to be ‘baby factories’ then sending them back to the auction / kill pen?
Someone please clarify this for me before my head explodes …
I get it…the way to make lots of money in horses is by holding seminars and charging other people to teach THEM how to make money with horses
Bing! Bing! Bing!
WINNER!
It’s like a MLM. That neighs.
Maybe the horse wasn’t either. What is “CA”?
As I stated on Facebook this morning and I will post right here!!!
“Poor Guy!! Poor Horse too! Sounds like the owners need a “comin’ to Jesus” meeting first!! And yes, syndicated stallion situations are a wonder. Who really does the horse get to “know”????”
When your trainer says the horse ain’t ready….you should listen!!!!
Carrie Giannandrea
Dances with Horses
Formula One Farms
I was reading Paradise’s site:
“Join Paradise Arabians in Scottsdale for a party celebrating our breathtaking stallion Scapa! Hosted by Annabella Gelbard and Matthew Gales of Brookville Arabians, this is a chance to spend some time up close and personal with the stallion everyone is talking about!”
Well, that is certainly true, but maybe not the “up close and personal” part.
Well, everybody’s talking about him now. They didn’t even realize how on-target they were going to be.
FHOTD, that’s not true. I know a women with one of Storm Cat’s colts [immediately gelded, thank God!] and he was so amazing! He was sweet and willing to work:] Granted, he wasn’t too bright. ;P Luckily, she wasn’t the one who had to pay his 500,000 dollar stud fee!
Glad to hear there are some, I just hadn’t met one yet!
C’mon…that’s my great-grand-sire you’re talking about (maybe the stupid-mean-gene dropped off along the way because Little Big Red is neither of these)
Also, stud fee last year was $20,000 for AQHA mares through special breeding program at Texas A&M.
Here’s a foal produced from that program: http://www.vesselsstallionfarm.com/pdfs/SC%20YFM%20sm.pdf
My horse is a Storm Cat grandson. He’s kind, calm, willing and smart. However, I think he was a stand up comedian in his former life.
My mare (Storm City Slew) is a Storm Cat granddaughter. Her sire is Storm Boot. I read an interesting book called $tud, Adventures in Breeding, and he had his own chapter. The writer talked about how Storm Boot would move his grooms where he wanted them….by his teeth.
That being said, my mare is extremely bright, and very willing. I’m glad she didn’t get the Storm Cat personality, She’s out of a Seattle Slew mare. Funny thing is she was sold for $38,000 at the Keenland auction, raced once, and bought by me for $475 at Enumclaw. My bargain show horse.
http://www.wildponybeast.blogspot.com
You know I’m with Katie on the SS horses though…I just love them, they are awesome.
I am also totally in love with the Mr. Prospectors. They are snuggle bunnies without exception, in my experience.
Seehorse has a VIDEO of the whole thing! Betcha a kabillion dollars they won’t ever release it.
I have heard only really Good things about the handler, who nearly lost his life due to the pressure of so called “Owners” who INSISTED , against the advice of the handler to show him this year!
Gosh I wish I were rich and well funded like the National Enquirer so that I could offer to buy the video.
Did you all see that the Enquirer is up for a Pulitzer this year? They broke the John Edwards story long before the mainstream got to it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/emily-miller/national-enquirer-officia_b_467932.html
FHOTD: This was forwarded to me, this guy could really use some help so if you could spread the word i’d appreciate it!
My email is promisemememphis(at)aol(dot)com if you want the contact info.
On January 14th, a Spencer, Massachusetts man underwent a serious breakdown over personal issues and shot his wife, their pet poodle, Picaro, and finally, himself. Picaro, a fourteen year old Paso Fino stallion, was the sole survivor – even with two gunshot wounds to the head. He was rushed to Tufts Vet School in North Grafton, MA, where every effort was taken to save his life. The day after the shooting, his right eye was removed, and on the 20th, a CT scan was done and it was found that there was a great amount of damage done to his lower jaw region and the portion of the jaw that supports the tongue and larynx had been shattered. The doctors and students at Tufts had their work cut out for them.
Here’s a video of his CT scan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBVdOOoKtaI
Many surgeries later, Picaro was still standing and beginning to recover. Through some serious recovery time, eating struggles, and a bout with colitis from the phenylbutazone used to help control the pain, he showed that he was a strong, brave horse with the will to live. He is described as having a very distinct personality, but also has been working well with the vets and vet students at Tufts and has proved to be a horse that claimed everyone’s hearts.
Here’s a video from a news story about him and his journey:
http://www.necn.com/02/12/10/Horse-shot-multiple-times-by-owner-is-on/landing_newengland.html?blockID=179812&feedID=4206
Today, he is on his way to a full recovery. As of yesterday, Feb. 23rd, he has been moved into rehab at the farm of one of the doctors on his case in Sturbridge, MA, and they are now taking applications for his adoption. There is no adoption fee – just a strong drive to find him a perfect, forever home.
I first learned of this story via Kelley Small’s daughter, Katharine. I run the Paso Fino fan page on Facebook and she posted about him on there. I reposted it as a status update and kept my eye on his blog. Katharine continued to post updates on the fan page and I became more and more interested in his story. I absolutely adore Paso Finos, and the fact that this took place so close to home made me all the more willing to do what I could. Most recently, Katharine posted about looking for a new home for him, and I sent her a personal message asking her to pass my contact information to her mother, Kelley (who is featured in the video above). I have been writing back and forth with Kelley since last night, and while it’s pretty much certain I can’t take the horse myself, I have decided to commit myself to helping find him a wonderful, loving home.
Picaro, as stated, is a grey fourteen year old stallion – I’m guessing his height is somewhere around fourteen hands. Kelley has described him as one of the quietest stallions she’s ever seen, but he IS a stallion and that should be taken into serious consideration. I do not know his bloodlines, but Kelley has relayed to me that he is very well bred (according to the Paso Fino Horse Association; she is waiting for his papers to be sent in) and very well trained on the ground and under saddle. In the coming weeks I am going to go visit him myself in Sturbridge to get a better idea of his personality and what the coming weeks are going to bring for him and his recovery.
Picaro has been through a great deal and most certainly deserves a loving, forever home. I know most of you aren’t in a place to take on this kind of responsibility, but if you could do me a huge favor and pass the word around, I’d be grateful! If you or someone you know is interested, please give them my contact information and I will put them in touch with Kelley.
Wow, that poor horse! I hope someone will step up and give him a safe home. Paso people?
I’ve seen horses completely lose it before–it is entirely possible he had a complete breakdown. I honestly think that Scapa just needs to chill out and mow someone’s lawn and make babies; this showing business is obviously creating some little issues, and yet he’s just too stunning to throw away.
But this ‘education’…it’s like someone trying to teach sex ed in a school who still thinks babies come from storks.
Theres no such thing as a bad horse just a bad trainer/handler
That said I think that if you can think a horrific thought some “trainer” has already thought it and done it. I used to know a big big big time Arab breeder/shower who would tell stories that would turn your hair gray about how they trained back in the old days. Her discipline of choice was english pleasure and they would have the farrier drive a nail a little high or put marbles under the pads until show time. She said she was lucky to have lived through all the costume classes she did cause they loved it when the horses looked “wild” so they would take them out back with a whip and “wind them up”. This is all stuff she thought had stopped way back when…..I guess not
I am sure there is a video, this is Scottsdale, its only a matter of time.
Theres no such thing as a bad horse just a bad trainer/handler
Sorry, totally disagree with this. I knew a filly that was batshit crazy from the instant she popped out. Never abused, never mistreated, personally knew the dam and she had an outstanding temperament, and I met the stallion once and he seemed like a pretty laid-back guy.
If she couldn’t kick you with her hinds, she’d strike at you with her fronts, and if all else failed, she’d pin her ears back and snake her neck out and come at you with her teeth bared and the emptiest look I’ve ever seen in an animal’s eyes. This was at weeks old.
If it’d been me, I would have dug a hole. Her owners instead ran her through an auction. Led into the ring, she attempted to jump into the stands. She sold, because she was a nice overo like her daddy and a mare. Cause, you know, if she’s batshit, we can always breed her.
I think just as some people are “not right” mentally, the same can be true of horses. Really, how much has any of this even been studied? There absolutely are horses who have NEVER been abused in any way and yet are super quirky and unpredictable.
So true–how much has even been proven about HUMAN psychology? For example, there’s evidence to suggest disorders like schizophrenia have a genetic component, but symptoms and behaviors can mimic or combine with others that are environmentally-caused. I mean, we don’t even know for sure what causes a person to become a serial-killer, though it’s been studied to death.
My own opinion is that true intrinsically-programmed insanity is rare, and that this horse could become a good citizen with a change of enviromnent.
Yeah, I knew one like that. Never abused, never neglected, absolutely beautiful Arab mare, and she was just crazy. She was okay when ridden (although her owner stopped after a while), and she’d let you go near her if you were doing something she expected as part of her routine and it wouldn’t take long – so you could lead her in and out of the field and groom her, so long as you were quick about it and didn’t take your eye off her for a second. The rest of the time, she was lethal. If you went anywhere near the stable door, she’d lunge at you, and it wasn’t even just being protective of her space – if she saw a human at the other end of the field she was in, she’d go straight for them. And she’d mean it, too. She would kick, strike, bite – she once got hold of another owner (who was climbing over the fence to escape), and not only pulled her back in but shook her by the shoulder like a rag doll before going for the kneel-and-bite. I know just what you mean about the empty look in the eye, Diane. I have never seen anything like it before or, thankfully, since.
Her owners did consider breeding her when they stopped riding her (the chorus of “NOOOOOOO!” from everyone who’d ever met the mare was pretty loud), but decided not to on the grounds that they didn’t want to be responsible for anyone she injured at the stud farm, and knew they’d have trouble getting near any foal until it was weaned. She apparently had a fantastic pedigree (I don’t know what was in it, but I wish now I did), although there were rumours her great-grandsire had been totally evil too.
“Matthew was released from the hospital yesterday. He does have a scull fracture and is extremely sore but is expected to be okay. Matthew said Scapa bumped his shoulder causing him to fall and that it was an accident, not an act of aggression.”
Yeah..umm..ya know, I’ve been bumped in my shoulder more times than I can count and not once did I end up with a skull fracture.
I smell coverup.
Yeah, it just doesn’t ring true. That’s why I eagerly await the video – if we ever see it.
I’m cool with waiting for the video too. Just wanted to expose that person’s point of view, and as I said, I am no fan of the hyped, gingered, shaven, greased “thing” that is pinned in the halter ring at Scottsdale. I put the knife in my own financial throat long ago by having an aversion to shooting photos of this perversion, just so that you know.
I don’t know this stallion or this handler. My two cents: I was a full time groom at one of those glitzy Arabian investment barns, many years ago. 32 horses that were never even visited by their “investors;” they were handled only by two trainers and the barn staff.
It broke my heart. Several stallions were kept in their stalls nearly 24/7. There weren’t even the tiniest paddocks for turn out. Two of them, only the head trainer was permitted to handle. Which he rarely did. They stood pressed against the back wall, glaring at anyone who walked by. Horses in training were out of their stalls a precisely timed 60 minutes per day. 30 minutes training, 30 minutes grooming and cool down.
Very occasionally, I was instructed to turn out the trainer’s fave in the one large paddock for a supervised session of 15 minutes or so. That was the horse who went on to a National title. I’m glad he survived that long. Because by the time he got a little turnout, he was so nuts, I had to wave my arms to keep him from crashing into the fence.
I had strict instructions. There was no tolerance for patting and cooing and generally enjoying a horse’s fine company. Into the grooming stall, and to their whip cracking session. I never saw them actually touched with the whip. But they were certainly clear on how fearful they needed to be. After a 30 minute training session, they had a cool down (with no petting), and straight back to a stall. I handled halter babies, 6 months to 2 years, who had been so disciplined into their forms, they were terrified to turn their graceful necks to even look at me. They had to be straight at all times, and were permitted only eye-rolling to try and see what I was doing. It was like moving Breyer horses around, rather than working with living creatures.
Most of the horses had a constant, low to medium level of anxiety at all times. They were perfectly obedient, and except for quivering, perfectly lifeless. Nothing went on that you could technically call abuse; the SPCA certainly wouldn’t visit. But it was a creepy show horse factory, where horses had not one minute to be horses. They were completely isolated both from their own kind and from human affection.
The barn manager sat in his luxury upstairs office. I never once saw him in the barn. He was an accountant. He knew nothing and cared nothing for horses. He kept the investors happy with numbers and trophies.
I don’t think a horse has to be bloodied in order to suffer grave psychological damage. I believe you can lose your mind slowly because of a long, consistent series of injuries to your emotional and physical needs. I felt anxious at that barn myself. I was always waiting for one of these creatures to blow up big time. I saw some spectacular blow ups during breedings, both mares and studs. You want to talk about a mare fighting any restraint, and studs battering mares with their feet and teeth? Holy crap. It was the only chance they got to blow off steam, and they were insane. I had waaay less drama at a TB farm where some horses were straight from the track. Everyone had day-long turnout.
Maybe Scapa was blatantly abused, maybe not. He could be the product of “Arab investment” people who treat horses like cabbages: Grow ‘em, prune ‘em in straight rows, and take them off to market.
“I had strict instructions. There was no tolerance for patting and cooing and generally enjoying a horse’s fine company. Into the grooming stall, and to their whip cracking session. I never saw them actually touched with the whip. But they were certainly clear on how fearful they needed to be. After a 30 minute training session, they had a cool down (with no petting), and straight back to a stall. I handled halter babies, 6 months to 2 years, who had been so disciplined into their forms, they were terrified to turn their graceful necks to even look at me. They had to be straight at all times, and were permitted only eye-rolling to try and see what I was doing. It was like moving Breyer horses around, rather than working with living creatures.”
See, all of that is JUST NUTS.
I don’t claim to know anything about Arabians, but I always found it interesting that they wear the smallest halters possible. With the way some of those horses perform in halter classes, it amazes me that they don’t break those halters on a regular basis.
I used to work at a Standardbred breeding farm and we had a RANK (but gorgeous) stallion there that we bred quite often. He could crush a 5-gallon pail with his mouth, enjoyed killing the peacocks that wandered into his paddock, and once picked me up by my shoulder with his teeth and slung me across the drive like a rag doll. We had to climb into the rafters of his stall when he’d get his halter over one ear. He was horrible and dangerous to work with. He was a great racehorse, though, and many people wanted to breed to him. I wanted to put a bullet in his head… All his foals were nasty, just like him. I never understood why anyone would want to breed their mare to a horse like him and end up with offspring just like that.
There’s a metal cable running through those puny looking little halters to prevent them from breaking.
They do break those halters, like crazy! They train with cable ones though so when they get the nice ones on they dont realize they can break them. Its the ones that do realize the difference between the show halter and the training halter that cause a clatter. Havent you ever noticed that halter arabs seem to have the worst halter bumps than any breed does????? Im just sayin
A rank Standardbred stallion ?! Speaking of bad stallions – here is an interesting listing with extra links
http://www.behindthebitblog.com/2009/12/meanest-thoroughbred-stallions-ever.html
It’s interesting that the Arab people are in an uproar about Fugs “ruining the breed” when it’s the training methods in question causing the problems.
Shoot the messenger. You know the drill!
I’m an arab person, I know there’s other arab people here, and I’m not out to shoot her. I like that I can express myself here, and my concerns, without being shot or black-balled
The last Arab stallion halter show I saw was years ago in Louisville. I really wanted to put most of the handlers in a stall with their obviously abused terrified stallions, with no whip or weapons for about 20 minutes. It is infuriating to watch. And they encourage this idiot snort,blow, and rear behavior, and wonder why everyone is buying quarterhorses for their kids, and not Arabians!!! Nucking futs. The horses deserve so much more. Too bad this handler was hurt, since it sounds like he was a good guy. But they are rare in my opinion.
I would be curious as to the bloodlines of Scapa. Years ago a (mature, experienced) friend was bitten in the chest, lifted up and thrown, by a straight egyptian stallion she was leasing. When she contacted the owner, he said that he had an episode once where he was trapped in the stall and had to use his pitchfork to get away from the stud. This only came out AFTER her episode. Needless to say, the horse went back to said owner immediately. If memory serves me, the horse had another”episode” a few years later, and was put down. At that time it was said that a particular stallion’s offspring “may” have a “bad gene” in them but since one was a national or reserve champion, that was simply overlooked. Wouldn’t doubt if that ‘bad gene’ is still lurking.
My second thought was if the “previous trainer” was one of the Boggs, as I’ve seen one (don’t remember which one) whose horse absolutely hated him. Her ears told the whole story, but she was one beautiful mare, when she wasn’t trying to eat him. Again, this was years ago.
He is by Mishall HP (TheeEgyptianPrince, two crosses to Ansata Ibn Halima, Messaoud, five(?) crosses to Morafic, six crosses to Nazeer) and out of the mare Erie Ana (Thee Desperado, The Minstril, Khofo, five crosses to Morafic, seven crosses to Nazeer, four crosses to Ansata Ibn Halima).
From what I have read, that’s a pretty typical Egyptian pedigree. Lots of crosses to a handful of lines, seemingly small gene pool.
Just maybe the ex-trainer was in the ring at the same time? That may have been the set off that Scapa needed. I know my old gelding doesn’t like certian people. He is normally easy going but when one particular woman would come into his area he would go on alert.
See, that was my first thought too. Who trained this horse before, and were they in the ring at the same time?
Honestly, unless things have changed since the early 90′s, I’m surprised this kind of thing doesn’t happen more often. I was peripherally involved in the Arab world at that time. I did not know of ANY trainers that turned their show horses out. They were stalled full time. . Not just the halter horses, though those were definitely stalled unless being “worked” or on the hot walker, but also most of the under saddle horses. The lucky one’s got to go home to their owner’s farms and get turn out during the off season. The barns were full of weaving, cribbing, colicky horses who were climbing the walls.
Halter horses were regularly whipped on the front legs and feet. They were whipped and then shanked with the chain, rinse and repeat, ad nauseum. Then they can get that nice tight neck from fear as they are taught they must reach out towards the butt of the trainer’s terrifying whip with their muzzle. They wanted them to rock back when the trainer moved towards them and then rock forward with veins popping as the trainer backed off. They were squirted in the face with fire extinguishers and pretty much tortured in most any way you can imagine to get them “pumped up”. I know of at least one trainer that soaked their show gloves in lion urine to create additional “animation” in their horses. For those that don’t know, the stallions tails are kept up over their backs to that extent because a toothbrush coated with ginger is rubbed briskly inside their anus.
I watched a trainer pull a halter stallion out of his stall to show him off once. The obviously excited stallion (Oh my God, I’m actually getting out of my stall!) inadvertently stepped on the trainer’s foot. The horse was whipped for at least 5 minutes until he was covered in welts. I reported this to the owner who shrugged it off. Horses were regularly shown and won with whip welts. Even if they didn’t have welts, all you had to do was look at most of the BNT’s horses. You could see the terror in their eyes and their trembling bodies.
And yes, in all fairness, a lot of barns do not turn the show horses out. Believe me, that was an absolute requirement for me when I went looking for a trainer. I frequently show up to find my horse covered in mud…and I like that!
I know a Friesian mare that is absolutely beautiful, but she does not like people in hats. Anyone who works around her cannot wear a straw hat or baseball cap because she will chase them out of her stall. You wear a hat, she pins her ears. You take OFF the hat, and she’s looking for scritches.
My OTTB used to be very wary of short men with dark skin (jockeys? grooms? backstretch workers??).
I’m sure if a horse were abused by someone who chewed tobacco or wore a strong cologne or smelled of garlic or … ??? would be leery of anyone else with that same odor.
My issue with Scapa’s head is the size of his brain pan.
Info on Scapa:
5 y/o Stud, been to one show in Alabama as a 2 y/o.
From what I can gather he was “trained” by somebody who isn’t a BNT. So, he probably got unfair handling from that situation. His first interaction with Matt wasn’t aggression, it was excitement. From there, he snowballed out of control and lost his little horsey mind. He doesn’t seem to have a history of aggression in the barn. This may be just a show ring thing. At least, that’s the hypothesis I’m getting from my halter guys.
Scapa’s past trainers reported to be Greg Knowles, Gil Valdez, and Frank Spoenle.
I know nothing about any of them, so can’t comment, but there was some online eyerolling about some of them, so there must be a story there somewhere.
Also, there was a pretty direct admission that the horse had problems in the past.
I just finished reading the ABN thread and I have to wonder about the sanity of some of the posters there. IMO, people should be a lot more worried about the well being of the trainer and less concerned about how this information getting out is “tarnishing THEIR breed”. The man had his skull fractured (from what I’ve read online) for fucksakes, who cares about the reputation of YOUR breed.
If the stallion didn’t snap and attack his handler, if it was just an accident, why are there no videos available of the incident? Why are some people already threatening legal action?
I don’t know why they’re so worried. I don’t stay up late at night worrying that my breed is being tarnished by the HYPP horses falling over. If YOU don’t have an aggressive stallion, YOU don’t have anything to worry about.
In case anybody’s confused, YES, I understand that there are aggressive horses in every breed. Duh.
I do have to say that although this is terrible I do have to thank Fugly. I have a rescue so more now then I ever I pay more attention to these things. I am learning so much about the horse world good and bad. It will help me on my journey with other horses also. I am learning so much that I feel like I can potentially help others out there. Abuse happens so much more than we really know. It happens at our neighbors farm down the road and every where else. Its very sad and hearing this stuff makes me have even more passion to help others. So again thank you Fugly for everything you put on here. you take time out of your day to try to get the messages out to people and the general public. Thank you for everything you have taught me thus far. you are doing a wonderful job. It’s like a berath of fresh air to know there are so many people out there who do care.
I have a datasource subscription and checked, Scapa is not syndicate owned.
What is interesting is that his recognized AHA show results shows only two entries from March 2007. He received two second places (out of classes of 3 and 4) in the Alabama All Arabian Show in Halter classes. He was just barely over 2 years old at the time.
As my understanding goes after reading about syndicates (like Huckleberry Bey’s) and talking to Mr. Husband (who has charge of Khemosabi’s frozen assets), most of the time when a horse is syndicated, the owner/breeders maintain the controlling interest of the horse. I believe this is to avoid turning the horse into a corporation and asset by responsible owners, and making sure there is always one ruling party with the horse’s best interests at heart (supposedly). In this case, any action can be quickly taken should a problem arise without having to notify shareholders and wait upon a vote.
I am not so sure Scapa needs to be gelded, or euthanized, on the spot, but I am certain that he needs at least 2 or 3 years or rehabilitation with a person very experienced with bringing horses around from abuse, with absolutely no breeding in that time period. This issue may be because the horse’s brain is fried due to overshowing and abuse; but that doesn’t mean he will pass it along. Man-made faults are man-made faults. If in that time Scapa cannot make progress towards improving, and showing that he can be a well mannered horse, then yes it is time to geld. I do know that he should never set foot in the halter ring again, and probably should not show again. He has titles, he’s proven he’s pretty, at great cost to his own mind. Allow him to recuperate and give him a life as a healthy, happy, mentally-sound creature. Even as a gelding.
I think the abuse started when someone decided that these super-dished faces were pretty. This horse looks freakishly deformed to me, but I guess I’m in the minority here. Too many people breed for a specific look, color, etc without any regard to personality and little, if any, regard to health.