Pretty…dangerous!
Feb 24 2010
For those of you who haven’t yet heard this story, at the Scottsdale All-Arabian show last week, a stunningly beautiful stallion called Scapa tromped the living hell out of his handler in the halter class. And I mean tromped. Put the guy in the hospital.
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You can read more on the Arabian Breeders Network board. Here is what one poster had to say. I’m VERY interested to hear from you if you were actually there and know anything. As always, make an alter, you’re welcome to stay anonymous!
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“The rumors floating about include that Scapa had been mentally fried from his previous halter training and was sent to Matthew for “rehab” and saddle work. Owners wanted him shown at Scottsdale, Matthew expressed concern about taking him, owners insisted, Matthew relented. From what I’ve seen described–stressing that I was not there and am simply repeating what I’ve seen reported elsewhere–the stallion lost it, had a major meltdown and that the ‘attacks’ were deliberate. The first two episodes were described as striking out and then shouldering the trainer out of the way, with the third time being a deliberate knock-down and savage, including the horse’s knees on the trainer. Again, as I understand it, after the first two episodes, the horse was loose in the ring, but was easily caught with no aggression shown and these episodes occurred BEFORE the class was considered “in session”.
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I checked out the Facebook and (oh look, the horse has his own Facebook too) web site of his owner, Paradise Arabians, and they are silent on the issue. Gee, you think they’d at least put something up to the effect of how sorry they are for Mr. Gales’ injuries and how they have Mr. Naughtypants scheduled with the vet for a much-needed brain surgery, wouldn’t you? But I have this sneaking suspicion…and we’ll see if I’m right…that what they really want is to keep this incident quiet and not lose their big investment in Mr. Naughtypants. Maybe because the main page of their web site brags that they’ll teach you all about “tax advantages, business opportunities, and the chance to create a Straight Egyptian Arabian breeding business of your own.”  We all know that is exactly what the industry needs right now – more beginners with a breeding business of their very own! Yes, I am being snarky. Dripping in snark, as a matter of fact. Dude, seriously, read this shit. They’re encouraging you to buy horses EVEN IF YOU ARE AFRAID OF THEM. What.the.fuck. On second thought, I might be afraid of them too if I owned Scapa!
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And this leads me to another question. Quite a few big name stallions do belong to a syndicate. In a situation like this, when the true horsepeople obviously know it’s time for Mr. Naughtypants’ stud career to come to an abrupt halt, what happens when your investors – who may not know horse behavior from a hole in the ground – say hell no, we put money into this thing and it needs to sire a zillion babies and pay us back? I always forget that stallions may not be owned by horsepeople. Wooo. Scary thought. Good luck accomplishing “responsible breeding” in that scenario.
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The thing I’m most interested to see here is if any public position is taken. ‘Cause there are only two logical options here:
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1. Scapa is a nasty piece of work and needs to be gelded.
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2. Scapa was reacting in an understandable manner given his past or present abuse. This isn’t his genuine nature, and won’t come out in his foals. This tactic requires outing the abuser. From everything I’ve read, I do NOT believe this is Matthew Gales, the current handler, who has a good reputation. Too many people are speaking up in his defense, and commenting that he got the horse in order to fix it.Â
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I admit I’m kind of rubbing my hands together to see which “spin” will be put on this. I know his owners would probably prefer the Code of Silence spin on it, but hey, this is the Fugly Blog and it’s where we talk about things the horse industry would rather we didn’t! The #1 thing I want to know – who else has trained/handled Scapa? Does he need to be a pretty gelding, or is his behavior understandable given what he’s gone through and a sign that a good handler needs more time to rehab him and earn his trust before he ever re-enters a ring again?
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“Owners wanted him shown at Scottsdale, Matthew expressed concern about taking him…” Trainer Matthew Gales looks like a young guy in his photos. I wonder if he is too tactful or cooperative because of his youth. If so, I imagine that one thing he’s learned from this experience is to trust his own judgement and stand up to clients who won’t listen to him. I wish him a speedy recovery.
What an eye-opening post. This answers some questions that I had completely forgot about b/c they were so long ago (late 60s). My polish bred gelding’s breeder always encouraged me to hang out there and ride the mares, but I was not allowed in the two stallions stalls because…I don’t remember. But they were always in their stalls, and that was my question back then. I can’t once remember seeing the 2 studs at liberty except for the time I disobeyed and took my gelding’s sire Sur-Elite out for a walk and he got away from me (oops) and into the mare pasture. I was just a stupid kid. Thinking back now, I feel more proud than embarrassed about that moment.
Godspeed to Matthew, he certainly rates in my hotness book.
I quote:
188 guests reading this thread……… obviously we made it to Fugly horse of the day!!!
Once again the Arabian breed is being tarnished, just what we needed
I’m an arab breeder and competator, I even show arab halter horses and have been known to show stallions too. Fugs, I THANK you for posting this. There are crazy stallions in every breed, we know that. I have to agree that this horse has no business stayin an intact stallion because obviously his personality is not worth breeding for. I too understand nasty and overly aggressive training techniques from creep trainers, but there are lovely wonderful horses who bend over backwards with good trainers too! You haven’t tarnished anything fugs, keep up the awesomeness!!
First of all…
POST. TRAUMATIC. TRAINING. DISORDER.
Good treatment makes good horses. Bad treatment ruins them.
I see it every day in the pet grooming business. I’ve been grooming for 7 years and I see it all the time. People will take their pets to someone who is a cruel and aggressive groomer and then bring them to me and they are completely crazy. Biting, snapping, barking, pacing, defecating/urinating all over themselves. All out of fear.
Most of them, once they realize I am not going to hurt them will calm down enough for me to get a decent grooming done on them. Some of them, on the other hand, are so far ruined, terrified that I have to send them home because I refuse to make it worse.
I too have seen people beat horses for the halter ring. I used to work for the infamous Jean Elledge… I know all about cruelty.
But I have seen people use cattle-prods, dressage-whips, reverse stud chains (which go under the chin and have a bicycle chain, when yanked they hurt the horse’s chin when the metal slammed into it and it would jerk it’s head up, eyes wide, and present what they called the ‘perfect arab showiness’. I’ve seen gingering, I’ve seen them put tabasco under tails. I have also seen head-tying, and the use of the most barbaric bits, chains, whips, and devices. One of the worst is this crazy pulley system used with a circingle to make the horse learn to pick his feet up higher. When one leg was on the ground, the other was yanked viciously up, almost to the girth. It was sick. The horse would pick it’s feet up so exaggerately that he could no longer walk normally for feat of being beaten.
Abusive training leads to fear.
Fear leads to aggression.
Aggression leads to attacks.
Attacks lead to isolation.
Isolation leads to the bullet.
Sick but true. The animals are only trying to say “LEAVE ME ALONE. STOP HURTING ME.” And I am a firm believer that animals, like people, who suffer from a form of post traumatic stress disorder can experience flashbacks and cause relapse. I see it all the time with the animals I work with daily. They’ll be standing fine while I cut their nails and the next minute I’ve gone to get the next paw and they go berserk.
I feel sympathy for the horses that go through routine beatings to make them ‘showy’… It ruins them from the mind outward.
Great post.
The other side of the coin is, “I’m going to hurt you BEFORE you can hurt me again.” Scary, but totally understandable. Horses are domesticated, but they aren’t born that way. They learn from their moms and the people and other animals around them. I’ve heard the best way to teach a young colt manners is to turn it out with a field of settled broodmares. They won’t take crap off ANYONE, particularly an “I’m all that” colt. I had an Alpha mare once, and she was exactly like that. She was boss and NO ONE argued with her. She was wonderful to handle — good about all “people procedures” — but when it came to horses, she was top dog. Loved that mare. Loved watching her work in the herd.
I agree with most of your post – people go to extreme methods to win, and some of them are unnecessary and some are even cruel. I know many pros in the arab world who just will not show halter horses at a big show. Perhaps at a smaller show for fun if the owner wants it, but that’s it. I actually switched over to dressage after growing up riding and loving saddle seat (and considering going pro) because I was so frustrated with the judging and the types of “training” that were encouraged. Basically there are a lot of people (certainly not all trainers though) in the breed horse world that survive based on gimmicks and misdirection and make a LOT of money doing it.
Anyway, I also wanted to clarify the “crazy pulley system” you brought up. It’s actually not cruel in the right hands, though I can see why many find it distasteful. It’s used on saddle seat horses to help them with their balance and build strength. It helps them learn control over the extravagant gait they were born with; beating should absolutely NOT be part of this process – there should be NO fear of getting beaten, EVER. Again, this is in the right hands. I’ve seen trainers who have no business even haltering a horse use this device with absolutely disasterous results – a reason I’d be okay with it disappearing from all barns (way too difficult for most, easy to wreck a horse with, and generally not actually necessary). The point is to work with the horse, not yank his feet away – you give him a little resistance to balance against, that’s it. If you pull too hard, you will just scare him and create an ugly halting gait that should not be rewarded in the ring (unfortunately, this is gait often the result of most people who use this).
I know people will see it and think it’s a torture device, but, when used properly, the main goal is to help a horse learn to balance and use his hind end more effectively. It is another one of those “weird” saddle seat “gadgets” that is not applicable to other disciplines, but it really isn’t cruel when used properly or confusing/painful to the horse when used properly (that’s very important). I can see why some find it distasteful, and that’s fine; but just because something looks weird doesn’t mean it’s always cruel, though it may be unnecessary and have better alternatives.
Another time when this device can actually be very useful is with a confirmed rearer. When a horse has not responded to other methods (going back to basics, proper work, etc), this “crazy pulley system” can effectively teach a horse rearing is a bad move and pretty much convince him not to do it again. Rearing is one of the worst problems a riding horse can have, so in that case, I think this device in very skilled hands on a horse with no other options can be used humanely and effectively. If it’s between the horse going to a shady little auction or having his feet politely restricted from going up in the air, I’m for the latter.
Again, I’m sure some will disagree, and I’m not advocating the use of this device (most people use it incorrectly and to extremes), I’m just saying that though it may be unnecessary, it’s not actually cruel when used as intended and does NOT cause the horse pain or confusion when introduced correctly.
I don’t have a problem with the pulleys … or draw reins, or german martingales, or any one of a million aids that can be used in a non-abusive manner by a good trainer.
I have a problem with fire extinguishers. That’s just bullshit.
Those who can’t see emotion in horses think they look very pretty when they throw their heads up, prick their ears, and open their eyes and nostrils wide.
Judges reward it.
Stoopid. I’d rather see a horse full of pride and showing off. That’s what dogs that “show well” have – a “Look at me!” attitude.
Ruthie
On that board, they are talking about Arabians having something called “CA”. What is that? I only do AQHA so I have never heard of this.
And also “SCID”???
Instead of writing loads of info, I’ll just link to sites with info on CA and SCID
CA: http://cerebellar-abiotrophy.org/
SCID: http://www.arabianhorses.org/education/genetic/docs/Severe_Combined_Immunodeficiency.pdf
SCID is Severe Combined Immunodeficiency–basically the horse is born with no immune system, and don’t last more than 4-6 months before some infection gets them. It’s like Bubble Boy syndrome, but there’s nothing to be done for an affected horse. One bad gene, you have a carrier, two bad genes and you have a dead baby. There is a test to see if your horse if a carrier.
CA is Cerebellar Abiotrophy. Again, it’s recessive. I’ll just copy from Wiki: Symptoms of cerebellar abiotrophy include ataxia or lack of balance, an awkward wide-legged stance, a head tremor (intention tremor) (in dogs, body tremors also occur), hyperreactivity, lack of menace reflex, stiff or high-stepping gait, coarse or jerky head bob when in motion (or in very young animals, when attempting to nurse), apparent lack of awareness of where the feet are (sometimes standing or trying to walk with a foot knuckled over), poor depth perception, and a general inability to determine space and distance. The symptoms are, when taken as a group, fairly unique and not easily mimicked by other illnesses, though certain types of neurological injury and infection do need to be ruled out. Verifying the diagnosis in a laboratory setting is only possible by examining the brain post-mortem to determine if there has been a loss of Purkinje cells.
They sort of have a test for it. But if a horse throws an affected foal they know they have a carrier.
From Wikipedia. Both of these syndromes are genetic and now can be tested for and bred around.
Cerebellar abiotrophy (CA), also referred to as the cerebellar cortical abiotrophy (CCA), which is a genetic neurological disease in animals best known to affect certain breeds of horses and dogs. It develops when the neurons known as Purkinje cells, located in the cerebellum of the brain, begin to die off. These cells affect balance and coordination. They have a critical role to play in the brain. The Purkinje layer allows communication between the granular and molecular cortical layers in the cerebellum. Put simply, without Purkinje cells, an animal loses its sense of space and distance, making balance and coordination difficult.
Abiotrophy means the loss of a vital nutritive factor. The exact cause of cerebellar abiotrophy is not known, but it
CA is thought to be due to an intrinsic metabolic defect.[1]
In most cases, the Purkinje neurons begin to die off shortly after the animal is born and the condition is noticeable when the animal is less than six months old, though sometimes the onset of symptoms is gradual and the animal is much older before the owner or caretaker notices a problem.
CA cannot be prevented, other than by selective breeding to avoid the gene, and it cannot be cured. In addition to dogs and horses, there also have been cases of cerebellar abiotrophy in Siamese and Domestic shorthair cats; in Angus, Polled Hereford, Charolais and Holstein Friesian cattle; Merino and Wiltshire sheep; and Yorkshire pigs.
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SCID is another recessive gene with carriers not affected.
Equine SCID is an autosomal recessive disorder that affects the Arabian horse. Similar to the “bubble boy” condition in humans, an affected foal is born with no immune system, and thus generally dies of an opportunistic infection, usually within the first four to six months of life. There is a DNA test that can detect healthy horses who are carriers of the gene causing SCID, thus testing and careful, planned matings can now eliminate the possibility of an affected foal ever being born.[1][2][3]
SCID is one of six genetic diseases known to affect horses of Arabian bloodlines, and the only one of the six for which there is a DNA test to determine if a given horse is a carrier of the allele.[4] There are other genetic diseases that affect other horse breeds,[5] and horses of part-Arabian bloodlines can be carriers of SCID.
Unlike SCID in humans, which can be treated, for horses, to date, the condition remains a fatal disease.[6] When a horse is heterozygous for the gene, it is a carrier, but perfectly healthy and has no symptoms at all. If two carriers are bred together, however, classic Mendelian genetics indicate that there is a 50% chance of any given mating producing a foal that is a carrier heterozygous for the gene, and a 25% risk of producing a foal affected by the disease. If a horse is found to carry the gene, the breeder can choose to geld a male or spay a female horse so that they cannot reproduce, or they can choose to breed the known carrier only to horses that have been tested and found to be “clear” of the gene. In either case, careful breeding practices can avoid ever producing an SCID-affected foal.
Hello, “accident” or not, doesn’t change the injuries…the people calling it a accident are morons. um do you realize this was halter? wtf. If there was contact between handler and horse then it was ON PURPOSE. My horses DO NOT touch me while being lead.
oh and if they are worried about fhotd, then DON’T BE SO FREAKIN STUPID. Believe it or not, you don’t see calm, respectful horses being featured of ANY breed. You created the monster, now we get to watch the show.
I was at Scottsdale, but not for this incident. I’m local teacher and a little girl from my classroom was riding in the leadline class. I’d never been to an Arabian show before, but i’d heard things and yep, when i got there, i found that everything i’d been told was true – and very little of it was good.
The warm-up arenas are total CHAOS. There seemed to be, at any given moment, a dozen horses doing various different things. Some were under saddle, some were being longed. They’re going every which-direction without concern for the other people in the arena, including the large clusters of people who were standing around inside the arena.
For the most part, as far as arena behavior, i saw mostly well-behaved horses. We were all kind of shocked to see a spooky horse brought into the leadline class (thankfully, as soon as he started acting up, they left the arena) – my guess was that the trainer thought that the horse had a chance of behaving just fine, but i feel like that’s not an appropriate class to test out your theories.
I also saw, during the english hack class, a horse whose rider just couldn’t keep under control, and IMO, she should have been asked to leave the arena after a short time. The horse was not paying attention to the rider (and i couldn’t tell much from the distance how much of the problem was coming from the rider, but i suspect from the horse’s behavior that something she was doing was hurting him), a lot of sidestepping and backing up when asked for pretty much any and all transitions. She stayed in the class, battling with her horse, until the lineup at the end. When he wouldn’t stand in line, she finally exited. I can understand the idea of wanting to push through the problem and finish the class, but the time comes that you have to think about the affect on the other competitors. Fortunately nothing came of this, but it very well could have escalated quickly into something bad, and i think the stewards should have been on top of it more.
Incidentally, fugs, if you decide to hit Scottsdale up next year, let me know. I’ll buy you dinner.
This just shows that things can happen no matter what you train:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ap_on_re_us/us_seaworld_death
I guess now I’ve just just ruined the illustrious breed of the Orca whale by spreading this information. Tsk, Tsk. How could I?
Touche.
But someone getting killed is sad, but then Sea World is pretty known for not treating their animals the best.
I got dragged there once by family, and ended up watching the Lippizans perform. My family kept grumbling, “Only you could find horses at Sea World.”
And “orca” means something like “demon from hell” so I guess we can’t win either way
They are WILD animals,they should not be kept in these sort of concentration camp style facilities, just so a load of ignoramuses can gawp at them.
I honestly do believe there is NO place for Cetaceans of any sort, in captivity, and NO excuse for it, either.
I have done some research into the incident…and am still not clear on what happened. One version of the story has a witness saying that the last thing that happened before the whale grabbed the trainer and drowned her was that her pony tail hit him in the nose.
The same whale was involved in the death of another trainer at a park in Canada (I believe it was Sealand Victoria). It’s MY running theory that the first trainer did something to those whales (I believe there were other animals involved) that provoked them and the second one did something that triggered a flashback.
Like, say, a ponytail hitting a nose that had, in the past, been hit by something far worse.
It’s a theory. I don’t have any evidence, I don’t really know what happened, but I do know that if my pony tail hit a horse in the nose and the horse tried to bite me…and I didn’t know the animal’s history…I would be very suspicious that a previous trainer kept whacking him in the nose. Not rocket science.
Knootka and Haida were the main instigators with Keltie in Sealand… when Keltie fell in, they were the ones who grabbed her and dragged her under. Tillikum was in the tank at the time, but everything I’ve heard says that he wasn’t an active participant. Also, that park forbade waterworks with the whales- that was the first time they had EVER been in the water with a human. And, the park had TINY tanks. When they weren’t in the show tank, they were in a back pool which was barely bigger then them.
I don’t know how well they were treated there or if they were abused. Part of me doubts it… I’ve seen pictures of trainers all over that whale, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
Personally, I think there was some kind of tension in the pod… these are highly social, smart, sensitive animals. If one of the girls was having an off day, well, it’s everyones off day. And he’s the lowest in the park as the only adult male. But I really don’t know what happened. I doubt anyone will ever be able to really tell :/
A long, blonde, wet ponytail can look an awful lot like a shiny fish to a whale. I sincerely doubt that the ponytial triggered a “flashback” of any sort. It was likely a tragic case of mistaken identity.
I do agree that whales, especially those as large as Orca have no business being captive.
Just because this misinformation is constantly spread.
Orcas are not whales.
Orcas are dolphins. Very large dolphins, but still dolphins. In genetics, culture and attitude they resemble dolphins, not whales.
I hadn’t thought of him mistaking the ponytail for a fish, but the witness accounts indicate he was ‘roughing her up’ not ‘trying to eat her’.
Who knows. And I’d say what happened at the park in Canada WAS abuse. I’m betting everyone here would agree that keeping a horse locked in a small stall, not handling it, would be abuse, and it sounds like that’s basically what was happening to those poor orcas.
Perhaps it was instinct taking over? I’ve seen pretty horrifying footage of orcas “playing” with a seal once they have finished hunting- maybe she moved or appeared like prey for just one second…this happens all the time with big cats.
I meant to mention also — what’s up with that greasy look. Ick. I also don’t like the deeply dished face, it looks deformed.
There is hope for Scapa. My mother bought a three year old Arab stallion that had been abused to the point that he would lash out at men out of fear. He had been at a BNT who believed in the “no turn out but lots of whip” method of training. The stalion freaked out and hurt/scared his owner (the “just watched The Black Stallion movie, so I must buy an black Arabian” type with no real horse experience). The day my mother went to pick him up, he was locked in a dark stall with curtains hiding him from the rest of the stable. He had scars and open wounds covering his body. He would shake or lash out when men approached him. At one point he had a panic attack with an equine dentist who tried to pull his wolf teeth (without tranq or freezing… I’d have clocked my dentist if he tried that, so I don’t blame the horse one bit) and accidentally scalped the man. (FYI, I’m not being insensative to the dentist getting hurt, he admitted that he should have frozen the horse and that he had slipped with a lead wrapped around his arm and a twitch attached causing the horse to panic and lash out while trying to escape.)
A lot of people said geld him, sell him, kill him… but my family worked with him. We figured out his triggers, overcame his trust issues and could not ask for a better horse. In the 16 years since, Boo went on to have a very nice dressage career, sired several young show/school/family horses and is one of the sweetest, most affectionate horses you will ever meet. There are times when we recognize the beginnings of a panic attack, but he trusts us enough that we can calm him down before he loses it.
And just so no one feels like Arabs are being picked on, I have a yearling QH filly that I rescued in September that is going through the same anti-men issues. She can be an absolute sweetheart with women, but she is afraid that men will hurt her. My boyfriend is really tall and scary (by short yearling standards) so the first couple of times he tried to help ended up with her trying to run him over, flip herself or strike. We are still working on her issues, but they are at a point where they will just stand there giving each other stink eye without any acting out.
It bears noting that you guys decided to make a lifetime commitment to this horse…which is admirable. He hit the jackpot and I’m happy for him.
Scapa’s sire is Mishaal HP, who is standing in Texas. I’ve had the pleasure of meeting three of his babies, and they were all lovely and friendly critters. They are all very reactive horses, but that’s the way they roll. They are NOT crazy. And the 2 year old just took a top 10 at Scottsdale – she was a superstar from the day she was born. LOVED to show off and prance around.
I am really curious to know if people like Bazy Tankersley of Al-Marah Arabians (love her horses. Love. Them. They epitomize what the breed is SUPPOSED to be) and Sheila Varian have ever spoken up about what goes on in the halter rings. Those two ladies have some of the most amazing horses – they look good AND they excel at a variety of disciplines.
I’ve also heard Ray LaCroix is “one of the good guys” among the BNTs as well.
You don’t see them showing halter, do you?
Bazy’s horses aren’t modern halter type at ALL. But they do cool shit, like jump, and not like Arabs – they jump like hunters.
Sheila’s will go work cows with the QH’s or go in park horse…they’re amazing athletes.
Now, Arabs are not my main breed, so I could be wrong and Sheila might have some halter wins in there but it’s not what she’s known for. She’s known for athletic horses that can go english or western and that have good minds.
Just to clarify, a great many of the Varian horses are showing or have been shown Halter along with performance: Almost all the Varian top sires have Halter wins. Desperado V was shown Halter but mainly placed 2nd or 3rd (though out of some large classes of 20+ horses). His sire Huckleberry Bey took several firsts and championships in Halter. Huck’s sire Bey El Bey took several US and Canadian National Top 10′s in Halter along with being Canadian National Halter champion in 1977. And lastly, Sheila’s foundation stallion Bay Abi was unanimous National Halter Champion stallion in 1962, beating out such greats as Bolero and Fadjur.
All of these four stallions have made up 50 years of Varian breeding, and all four are or were saddle horses, some also with National titles to their names in performance
I kind of figured that was the case, going back, but I don’t recall seeing her showing halter in any kind of recent time frame so I kind of figured she’d decided it was stoopid and opted out.
Shelias’ most recent stallion purchase, PS Audacious, placed top ten in Senior Stallion halter this year. He was handled by one of the Schalls, who own the Shada Arabian Sanctuary. They’re all good people.
Sheila Varian started out showing halter on the Arab circuit. She had said somewhere on her website last year about how halter Arabians have to have flat croups now, so you can’t have a horse that can halter and do performance anymore.
I’m a big fan of her and Bazy Tankersley. Both of them never lost sight of the fact that the horse ought to be good for more than object d’art.
Count me in as another fan of Sheila and Bazy and Arabians that can be ridden and aren’t just decorations.
Off topic: a bunch of new ads which may be of the same ilk as the Nigerian Friesian Scam are on Equinenow. I was afraid to click on anything, but if any brave person wants to mess with them, the ads I saw were all listed under “Ahmedabad, Alaska 20012″. There is no such Alaskan city, and the zip is for like, Florida or something. I emailed a complaint to the FTC.
Here is one of the ads:
Merry Smith
Ahmedabad, Alaska 20012
Breed: Barb Sex: Stallion
Color: Blue Roan Birth Date: May 7, 2006
Height: 5.0 hh Weight: 120.0 lbs
Registry: N/A Reg. #: 4532
Markings: 453
More Information at: brynhildconsulting.com
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Ha….oh, that’s definitely a scam, alright. A blue roan Fresian stallion? It’s unusual to see a bay or liver chestnut Fresian, much less a color like blue roan, which I’m fairly certain isn’t even acceptable in the breed. I know they don’t accept white markings.
could someone please inform me about storm cat? im looking at a gelding that has storm cat on the sires side. the gelding is quite nice on the ground but cant be ridden for another two months due to an absess. i dont dont very much about blood lines, bu everyone was talking about strom cat i just was wondering if the was something wrong with his breeding or confermation that i should worry about?
It’s just not a line known for either soundness or temperament. However, a horse is composed of multiple bloodlines. What else does he have in his pedigree? Everything matters and there are horses who break all the “rules” about what certain bloodlines are like, too.
so as i asked the ownr more about the geldigns back ground the more the owner would avaid my questions, i guess this horse is not what he appears to be. i never got mo onhis beeding background but as i asked around the gelding sounds very mean and very naughty (putting it nicely). he already is not sound in the front left foot as i came to find out as well. i have bought horses before and thought i knew all the right questions to ask. bt the owner sure pulled the cover over my eyes. im gld the red flags started flying before i put money into a horse that would have ruined me more than likely. thankyou for the information. i always like learning more about bloodlines.
This is a conversation on Scapa in the Straight Egyptians Boards from 2008 http://www.straightegyptians.com/forum2/index.php?showtopic=29097
It mentions a Gil Valdez and All Star Arabians… Apparently he went to Nationals.
All Star Arabians of Nogales/Scottsdale AZ- Owner/Trainer/Handler Gil Valdez
http://www.allstarsarabians.com/gil-valdez/index.html
I am not sure what to think of those pictures on the site you posted of Gil Valdez. Lots of whips. Surely just for show. And does he look a little ‘excitable’ or is that the idea?
I read Gil’s bio on the link and he spent 13 years with the Midwest Training Center (AKA Boggs)
All I know is to compare him to the great Vince Lombardi is a travesty! In the pictures, it seems like either he is holding them right by the face to keep them still, or they are freaking out due to whips and his own antics. All this talk reminds me why I opt to show my stallion under the sport-horse genre instead of half-arab. Yikes!
Ah. Halter. I’m with Fugly. There are halter trainers out there who are good — and those who are bad and it doesn’t take a genius to know which one is which. Just watch the horses.
If you go to the Varian Arabians site, Sheila tells a story about her great stallion Bey El Bey. They invited the audience down to the arena to come pet the stallions in the halter class (the breed was trying to promote itself as a family horse back then). Her lovely stallion stood patiently and relaxed while a blind man touched him all over. When he was done, Bey El Bey went right back to his halter pose. Can you imagine a modern stallion halter class inviting the audience down to pet the stallions in the middle of the class? The problem is definitely not the horses.
Yes. Sheila’s horses show and win at halter. Audacious PA was reserve stallion in the 8 year old plus (I think he’s sixteen) — the class LD Pistol won. But she trains them to ride — she had Jullyen El Jamaal after she bought him and he took first in a WP class at Scottsdale.
I’ve never met Michael Byatt (a BNT), but I owned a mare he trained for halter and she would prance and snort on the ground (especially at shows) but was easily controllable and obviously happy. She showed no sign of abuse at all.
I’ve been to Arab barns where weanlings and yearlings were shod in shoes that never should be put on any horse’s feet where their halter horses obviously disliked people. But I’ve also been to a winning barn who treats their horses very humanely — and still win at halter (one of their stallions won his halter class at Scottsdale this year). Their horses go out into the fields with other horses during the day (and risk a scar or blemish on their very expensive hides) but the barn owner believes a horse should be a horse. Though a halter barn, most of their horses are trained to ride (Incidentally Scarpa, according reports on ABlackHorse, loves to be ridden and Matthew was trying to use that to break through the stallion’s issues with halter). They geld almost all of their colts and when their National Top Ten stallion got too aggressive they gelding him, too. The saddest thing about my visit to this barn was how suprised I was by the good stewardship shown by this barn. Sheila and Bazy are not the only good owners out there.
Obviously you don’t have to be an asshat to win — that’s just the excuse asshats use. Unhappily, I’m afraid the asshats outnumber the good guys. I am hopeful that the new rules will help keep the asshats at bay.
Hey, out the good ones!
Everybody likes to know so that they can buy from/train with those people.
Er . . . Sheila Varian had Jullyen El Jamaal TRAINED after she bought him . . .
Master Jullyen V who won the huge yearling colt class was also a Varian horse.
Well, there is a reason people are told to always be careful and watchful around stallions– stallions have all that hormone surging through them that probably prompts them to choose fight over flight when they are stressed or feeling they need to defend their space.
Perhaps you all have forgotten the incident that got lots of internet play a few weeks ago about the man who was savaged by a stallion he went to feed–the man had his arm torn off!! The man carried a stick because he knew that stallion was rank. The man’s son had to shoot the horse to get it off his dad, who later died in the hospital. I never saw anything about what breed, if any, the horse was.
It was an awful outcome for all involved.
I am glad this trainer escaped with his life. I think the horse bears serious scrutiny. I take a very dim view of the show world (any and all breeds) in general, and in people who see horses as some kind of tax dodge or money-making scheme, in particular. Like everyone else, I want to see the video. After I’ll form an opinion about the horse.
I take a dim view of a lot of stallion handling, much of which has been discussed here before. To me it’s very black and white. If they go outside daily, if people are kind (but firm) with them, if they get to play with other boys from day one without being isolated, if they have a job that isn’t sex, you tend to have a nice stallion. If you lock them in a box, and isolate them, and never train them past halter breaking (if that) and approach them like a lion tamer with a chair, one day you get your arm torn off.
I agree with fhotd. I worked at a dressage barn that had 3 stallions. One of them was isolated and rarely got to go outside. He could only have his stall cleaned by the owner. The second one got ot go out daily with with older gelding brother, and he was hard to handle (probably just because of youth more than hormones), but he was still a nice boy. The third one was my favorite. He lived outside, had a large indoor run, and lived with an elderly Arab gelding. This boy was only 3 and had wonderful manners. He was the biggest sweetie, and when I got off of work I’d often go chill with him in his run. He loved hugs, and scratches. Its very interesting how one place can have 3 stallions that are so vastly different. Even though all three were close to the same age, and the same breed, with similar lines.
I worked for an Arabian Stallion station in Michigan, and the barn owner also showed his Arabs in halter/performance. He used umbrellas, camera flashes, whistles, you name it to get the attention of his horses. Never did I see him lift an angry hand to his horses. He (BO) told me of stories he knew of where stallions had to be led into the breeding shed on broomstick handles, a handler on each side, walking a plank above the stallion’s head. Other stallions that were so inbred that they were bound to snap at any given moment, and would just go crazy, attacking anything in sight. I wouldn’t put it past Scapa that genetics played a role in his mental capacity. He must go back to the lines of Nazeer/Morafic at least 15 times. I heard it’s line bred if it works, inbred if it doesn’t. I really feel sorry for this horse, and maybe he could be rehabilitated, but I don’t think he needs to be back in a showring…ever. The trainer should have stood his ground and said no to showing at Scottsdale. Ignorant rich owners.
My bad, I can’t count…he goes back to Nazeer 42 times. Holy fuck. Know who Nazeer’s sire was? Mansour! lol!
If you think Matthew’s hot, just move to the UK. Most of the men look like him here. And they all have (varieties of) an English accent too.
For Remesgirl: My rescue OTTB mare has Storm Cat on the sire’s side, and someone equally as bad news on her dams. I was a former QH person, so I had no clue! She’s 3. She’s simply huge and solid and very, very reactive. She was snarly when I got her a year ago. Had a vicious biting and striking issue (at 2!) but worked through it. She’s not a cuddly horse or a lovey horse, but she’s outgoing and curious and seems fairly bright. She’s been slow to mature, physically and mentally, and is absolutely and ridiculously clumsy. She’s a joy, but she’s a fulltime job to handle and ride. There can never be an instant, whether you’re grooming her, hand-walking or riding, when you stop focusing on her and the unpredictable nature of the horse. Don’t know if that’s Storm Cat’s fault, but it is certainly an adventure.
Several years ago a friend of mine went to look at Arabs she was interested in buying. She had spent her teenage years working and riding in a Arab barn, had fallen in love with the breed and was finally going to be able to make her dream of owning one come true. After looking, She was interested in a particular gelding. The trainer said he was crazy and dangerous and not the one she should get. But she could see this horse was terrified and when the trainer told her some of the things they had done to “train” him (things any of us would be ashamed to admit, but he was proud) she knew she had to get that horse out of there. After a couple of trips to the ER her husband said to get rid of the horse or he was going to kill him since he seemed so intent on killing my friend. She had spent allot of time trying to undo the damage the former trainer had done, but nothing seemed to be working. Then she learned about Parelli ( I know you don’t like Parelli and I’m not trying to start a discussion about that, just telling her story). That horse is now the sweetest guy in the world and to watch them do liberty is awesome. Anyone can handle him or work with him, but she is his special person and will follow her anywhere. She showed him in Liberty at a local show a few years ago and the old trainer was also there. He ask her husband who she was showing and when her husband told him it was the horse they got from him, his face just went blank. But, he never said anything about what a good job she had done with the horse – just walked away. He still has moments when he’s scared of something (not often) , but she can read him so well now she knows he’s unpset. She takes the time it takes to make the situation safe for both of them. The horse almost says to her “I’m scared, make it allright and keep me safe”. Some horrible things were done to him and it makes her cry if she even talks about it. The mildest was he was tied tight to a fence for a week – no food, no water. So, getting near any fence for awhile just freaked him out. He’s staight Egyptian and would be a wonderful show horse, but she would never subject him to that except the liberty (he loves Liberty) at the local show. In the liberty class everyone else is waving their whips around like madmen and then struggling to catch the horse. She just uses hand signals and then he comes right to her at the end. She promised him when she bought him that his life would be wonderful from that moment on, and in that she has succeeded. It was because of her and their relationship that I got into horses at my advanced age.
Why is it that more training and handling seems to be the answer for a burned-out horse? Isn’t that what got them there in the first place? I’ve put a lot of miles on my trail gelding of 10 years, and have hauled him everywhere from Michigan to Florida for organized rides which last anywhere from 3-10 days. He had gotten burned out. Gotten cranky and had a pissy attitude at times. You know what turned his behavior around every time? A little time off for him to just be a horse! I know his situation is different than that of a show horse or a stallion, but seriously, don’t we all need a break every now and then?
Looks like they are breeding more than deformities into the Arabian horse… very unfortunate
OK, so here’s what I want to know. What’s going to happen to the Arabian Halter Horse World now? All of the people who are outraged about the comments and rumors, etc….isn’t their outrage a little misplaced? Why isn’t anyone standing up for these horses??? When the excessive use of hyperflexion became publicly known in the dressage world, the public stood up for our horses, and put the powers that be under fire. So instead of wanting to “out” people who supposedly reported the incident to FHOTD, why aren’t they outting the people who are maliciously terrorizing their horses? These are the animals you live for, people….this is the breed and world you represent. Stand up and speak out!
I’m genuinely curious, for those of you who are involved in Arabians. Why aren’t your governing bodies feeling the pressure? Why do the people who supposedly love the Arabian breed want the incident to be hushed instead of seeing the flaws of the industry and fixing them?
I’m going to sound cynical and nasty in a second, and I want to tell you that it’s normally not my way, but here goes.
Concerned Arab owners have been complaining about main ring halter for YEARS. I went to the Nationals for the first time in 1981 or 1982 and the abuse was obvious then, as well as the outrage. Letters to AHA, ethical practices review board complaints (yes, I have done both in my time), boycott shows, stop showing, show sport horse, show open, complain, try to change the rules (the score card being the most recent and probably most successful attempt), etc etc etc. For reasons that I don’t totally understand, the Arabian Horse Association cannot come to grips with this issue. I guess there are just enough people who have the $$ and influence to counteract the just about same number of people who think this whole mess is an outrage. So progress is very slow and very frustrating. It’s been the downfall of the breed IMHO. And definitely has taken the fun out of showing and being part of a community of Arab lovers.
And experience has shown that even though the dressage people have their petition etc etc – rollkur will not just go “poof”. Consider all the disgusting practices you’ve read about in this thread and other Fugly posts, like soring in TWHs, like abusive practices in QHs – I’m willing to bet that rollkur will go on, just in the background. Outrage will only take you so far, and in my opinion, not nearly far enough. I’m not at all confident that this stuff can be completely eliminated.
These abusive practices are like roaches – shine a light on them, they go into the cupboard – but it’s damn hard to kill them. One of the good things about the internet is that the light is an awful lot brighter than it was in the old days, but it also gives a bigger incentive to the bad guys to be very very clever and careful in how they conceal their badness.
I believe more openness, more outspokenness, and more social shunning for this behavior is the only way to truly stop it. But there are a lot of craven people in the horse business and overcoming their bad character is a mighty tough road to walk. All we can do is try…
I never said hyperflexion would go poof. I’m not that naive, and in fact am very aware that it has been around for years. It first came from German barns and was used by riders such as Nicole Uphoff. What I’m talking about is the way the FEI community, and i’m talking about eventers, jumpers, and dressage riders, standing up as a whole and speaking out against it. You don’t see us on some board like the NAB saying that people who speak out against it should be shamed or hushed. Yes, I’m aware that there are money grubbing, unscrupulous trainers and I’ve been involved with horses since I was 5, so I have even run across a few of them in my life.
>I believe more openness, more outspokenness, and more social shunning for this behavior is the only way to truly stop it.<
THIS is what I'm talking about. Regardless of who is doing what, it's not enough. There may be people who are unhappy about the treatment of Arabian halter horses, I know that, but as a general whole, the Arab world has done very little to be open about or try to stop cruel training practices. MORE needs to be done, for Arabians and also for other breeds. Otherwise, we just fail our horses.
Sorry, wrong word. “Craven” means cowardly – what I really meant was “avaricious” that is, being obsessed with money and all it buys.
Guess I should stick to plain words – status seeking, money hungry people who only care about how the horses enhance their image. Still not strong enough, but it will have to do.
Fugs,
As a person who worked for the “breeder/owner” of 4 of the top 5 selling arabians of all time all I can say is go Scapa!
I had a increasingly poor view of what went on in the show ring after 20 years in the Morgan A ring but my stint at this place just disgusted me beyond belief.
These folks breed to the top 2 selling halter horses (and are having issues with the last top selling one – another story) and use your favorite mullet headed twit for a trainer and I have seen things and understand more now than frankly I EVER want to know. Many of these horses are just frankly nuts. The fillies out of one of these top stallions are just crazy reactive – doesnt matter how much they are handled or how kindly they are unpredictable at best and then add the MHT and the danger level is huge. Add in BS who by the way his halter had spikes welded in the nose and he was known to have savaged many handlers (Ooops those non people called grooms in these folks world) and his get who can be flatly mean and you have a mix of lines that should never be bred. But of course they are because surprise they win – the folks I worked for are in no way horsemen – they almost never handle the horses except for brief views in the show ring and rarely come in the barn (unless the weather is right and they can drive the golf cart thru).
In any case – very common items I saw – large calcifications on the jaw where the vet wrap on the stud chain just does not prevent calcium build up from all the shanking – even after just a couple short months, scars behind the ears (white hair) where the thin cable has had is way, very dangerous off side rear (this one is bad news for a groom) where the horses are taken out in winter blankets and beaten with hose lengths – generally those horses “shoot first” then look. Then the drugs my God the steroids would make Arnold envious – some jonsie like a heroin junkie coming down and the side effects after their entire endocrine system has been completely screwed up – terrible coats, weight loss, bad cycling for the fillies (and watch the laminitis on the colts), not to mention the breeding issues for many later (which is probably a blessing).
I really am not against the breed I have been to Varians many times and have to say what nice dispositions and my gosh no club feet (the 2 studs get I handled at this other breeder had lots of foot and leg issues).
But Fugs here is where I disagree – these owners (not Sheila obviously) win quite alot and they have been with MHT forever – they know what goes on – they simply do not give a damn and never will – they stuck all thru the surgery thing. I finally after shaking my head think it is simply the photos and the ego feeds of folks that have more money than sense and are just frankly evil.
Oh and my last parting shot to that halter ring thing – most of the foals out of these 2 studs never do get registered from these folks – but they are given away to “good” homes – care to place a bet where crazy unbroke arabians end up…
Beyond disgusted….. and hoping one of these poor horses finally got a lick in for the thousands they have been dealt…..
wow! these are the exact things that our ex-friend started doing shortly after entering the arab halter world. the amount of drugs he uses (on the horses) is staggering, the poor mares are subjected to everything possible to try to control ovulation, antibiotic is slopped around like peppermints, bute is a daily drug. club feet and crooked legs are of no concern, they will not be ridden anyway, all that matters to him (in order) is the “exotic” head, snakey neck and flat topline. oh, and any colts without “national” potential are tossed out with no papers (ungelded) to whomever will have them. his training methods are not torture, yet, but just give him time. he likes them to act insane and encourages such, but a couple of weeks ago one of the stud colts clocked him in the head and he was out for over 2 hours, maybe a change of heart is coming? i do not understand any of this, not the training, the huge sums of money for these loonies, not “the look”, not a damned piece of it makes any sense to me.
oh, almost forgot! same guy, when someone noted that if his main barn door were blocked and there were a fire, that the stall doors could not be opened from the outside. his reply “that’s why i have insurance on them”. i shudder to think…..
“I finally after shaking my head think it is simply the photos and the ego feeds of folks that have more money than sense and are just frankly evil.” Yep. The golf cart comment, too. Yep. To these owners, they’re NOT horses in the same way WE think of them as horses. They’re investments, status symbols, etc. Like the rare guitar in Spinal Tap, and Nigel Tufnel is all like, “Don’t touch it – don’t even LOOK at it!! It was never meant to be played!!!!”
Well, here: http://www.circle12ranch.com/terrybradshaw.html
That first horse is HYPP N/H, those pasterns will NEVER hold up, and his tail is sliding off his lardacious ass. But he’s got a baby doll head and fake-looking muscles!
Scrolling down, look at the rear pasterns on Self Employed. Look at his poorly-photoshopped legs. They’ve made his pasterns look like they belong on a 28 year old ex-carriage horse, and the rest of his legs look just STUPID, because that’s “desirable” on their planet. I hope he’s not that bad in real life. He’s a World Champion.
Heza Stemwinder. HYPP N/H, and UNANIMOUS World Champion. I hope that those bizarre bulgy muscles are more bad Photoshop and not for real.
Rich, hands-off, show animal owners often have no souls. The animals are merely prestige items.
They should stick to fancy cars and invest their money more wisely anyway.
Yeah, I blogged about Terry. It’s shameful. Educate yourself if you’re going to make more animals!
I sure hope that’s photoshopping because those horses are freaks. I’m astounded.
“lardacious”……….That may be my new favorite word! ROFLMAO! And you are absolutely 100% right about those horses. Ugh!
Good grief, I’ve actually heard of this horse. I’m hoping someone grows a pair and uploads the video of this attack. And also that the owners step up and name the person that “fried” him, assuming he isn’t just a rank s-o-b. I can’t understand why people protect abusive asshats. If you come out against some BNT, and that makes others afraid to take your horse, well, then maybe they have something to hide.
I hate to say it, but I think I’m in favor of putting that stud down. If he’s attacked people before, then he’s never going to be safe, well as “safe” as horses get. Though if the owners pushed him to be shown before he was done with rehab, and against the trainer’s better judgment, then maybe he should get another chance. He’ll probably be retired to stud and sire tons of babies, cause the owners will declare he’s too speshul and valuable to be taken away from the breed. Also, I’d be worried that he’d be declared “cured” and then have a mysterious accident in his stall that causes him to be put down and the owners to get a big check from the insurance company. Cause THAT’S never happened before.
The arab board made me lol–”Oh noes, Fugly is picking on Arabians She’s only supposed to be mean to stock horses! This is ruining our breed!” Yeah, and totally not the crazy sewing machine bodied halter horses and the blind eye to abuse that the breed is unfortunately known for anymore.
Really, I’m surprised abused arabs don’t attack their abusers more often. They and TBs always struck me as horses-that-don’t-put-up-with-shit. I guess anyone gives up after years of torture and pain, till maybe they see an opening…
I just hope for the best for this stallion and of course, the young trainer. Do I think you’ve “tarnished” the Arabian horse? No, I continue to think they are very beautiful.. Maybe this guy can be salvaged and given another job? I’m not very knowledgeable here, but possibly, retired from the ring, gelded and pastured, maybe ridden at some point? A cardinal sin? IDK.. Seriously, he’s just so nice to look at..I’d probably draw and photograph him, constantly, and that would be enough, LOL! He’s awesome… Belongs on the cover of one of those romance novels! Oh, maybe a modeling career! Someday, I’d love to have a horse this handsome! But, I’m a coward..So, make mine a gelding!
I HAVE seen Sheila Varian show halter and I was most impresses with her. It was back in the day when handlers were still whipping their horses up to enter the show ring and you’d often see horses either rear or go to their knees whenever the handler raised his whip. As the class proceeded, Sheila stood quietly with her horse. Often she leaned up against the wall or stood talking to someone in the stands as she awaited her turn to present her horse to the judge. He horse stood calmly and naturally, waiting. When it was their turn, Sheila walked her horse to the judge, raised her whip and her horse posed perfectly. She trotted the horse back to the line up, and again stood in a relaxed position. I was impressed! Now, we have to enter the ring quietly, we have to walk with our whips down, any signs of whip marks (barring a rather recent famous exception) and you are DQ’d and you don’t see the frenzied antics from the handlers and their horses like we used to see. I did show at the Arabian Nationals in 1989 and stood next to a BNT. In fact, he made a video for SeaHorse video about how to train an Arabian for halter which was all rainbows and butterflies and feeding the horse treats to teach him to pose. As I stood next to him in the ring, I could watch him whip his horse up between his front legs ( where whip marks won’t show) whenever the judge wasn’t looking. That sure wasn’t on his video!!! The registry has seemed to listen to the complaints about how the Arabian halter horse is shows and has enforced the rules better IMO. but they have NO control of what happens at the trainer’s barn.
One of the worse things I have ever seen done to a show horse was at the Ohio State Fair Shetland Pony show. In the barns I peeked behind a curtain. There stood a pony in a bitting ring with his head strapped backwards as far back to the top of his back as possible. He was standing on a sheet of plywood with eye bolts in the four corners. There were chains wrapped around the pony’s ankles and attached to the eye bolts. So, there stood the poor pony with his head held backwards, which had to feel terrible, and all 4 feet chained out to the 4 corners of the plywood until he was strecthed out as far as he could be stretched and then HE WAS LEFT STANDING THERE ALL ALONE behind the curtain for who knows how long! I know my Arabians would have come unglued if treated like that, but that poor pony just stood there stretched in all ways to the limit. I can not imagine what that was supposed to be teaching the pony. Then they put drops in his eyes to dialate his pupils, put a bag over his head to keep him in the dark, took him to the in-gate, whipped off the bag, and to get that “surprised, wide eyed” look they wanted and took him in the show ring.
….and did you report this abuse? if not WHY. I am talking about the pony chained to the plywood with his head tied backwards. Reporting the owner would have been the nicest thing I would have done AFTER I cut the pony loose. I cant post what I would have done to the owner before I called the police.
I sure as hell would have taken pics of that, and that person would have been VERY famous, even in the days before Internet…I’d have been posting that at the feed store and the tack shop!
Scapa has been at “paradise” for most of his life. He has only been to outside trainers twice, and each time for short periods – once when he was 3 and six weeks ago. Multiple trainers have shown him, but he has stayed at paradise almost exclusively. They “train” and show their own horses (and client horses) at paradise.
Paradise owners syndicated Scapa in 2009, for a reported $100,000 per share, as a 4-year old reserve champion & top five winner with no get ever shown. Published stud fee $4500 for 2010.
Greed affects all breeds and all industries – doesn’t matter if it is Wall Street, Oklahoma City, Scottsdale, or Georgia.
Ha. I win. I had a feeling he was syndicated.
I have a datasource subscription, and there is no syndicate listed as his owners. His owners are his original breeders. Are you sure you have the same horse? The AHA would have changed the horse’s ownership information to indicate he was syndicate owned.
An e-blast from arabhorse.com dated 1/11/10 entitled “Scapa-Breedings Available to a Limited Number of Mares” lists nine syndicate members (The Scapa Partnership), with three holding multiple shares.
That is very strange…it’s been my understanding that once a registered AHA Arabian was syndicated, the syndicate became the legal owners, and the papers had to be changed to reflect that fact. Which means datasource would reflect the syndicate as the owners (as it does for Khemo, Huckleberry Bey, and Echo Magnifficoo). I wonder if something is not up to par with the AHA, and if the AHA is aware of it…and if the syndicate members know that. The whole situation could potentially be a big legal mess.
Last night I spoke to a couple of close friends who I respect quite a lot that were at this show. Two of them saw it first hand as they were near the in gate when the incident happened. One of them was actually friends with the people that went over to help the handler. Both said it really looked more like an accident than anything else. Both have little reason to protect anyone in the industry, and one of them doesn’t even show anymore and has never been involved with any big name trainers. I certainly have no reason to protect anyone in the arab world, but I just wanted to present another first hand account.
Anyway, they said the handler looked like he had gotten caught unaware, for one reason or another, when the nervous horse crowded him, shouldered him, and accidently knocked him down. I would say this was a case of an insecure horse who has some old ghosts in the ring. Then he got tangled up with the guy when he knocked him down, but my friends said it really did not look vicious. More like the horse accidentally knocked his handler down and then got scared when he realized he was under his feet and acted panicky (which can look intentional depending on where you’re standing).
I’d imagine this horse has some old fears from the halter ring, got scared, crowded his handler, who was caught off guard and got knocked down. Then the horse got really nervous that his security (his handler) was somehow under his feat, and panicked.
Now, it’s possible my friends didn’t see it as well as some others who thought it looked like more of an attack, but they did say they were quite close and wouldn’t call the horse vicious. I hope that is the case and that this stallion has a nice future ahead of him. I believe most horses can be rehabbed with the right trainer – my 5’1″ grandmother has successfully fixed several (a few arabs even) that have seriously seriously hurt people – so hopefully this boy just had a fear relapse and can have a happy life (I bet some real horse turnout time would help, and maybe even some under saddle work, haha).
That may very well be what happened. If he spooked and knocked Matthew flat and panicked because there was a human underneath him and he thought he was going to be in trouble, that is understandable.
I also agree that most horses can be rehabbed with the right trainer. If Gil Valdez is the person who fried this horse, I hope the “Arab boards” that are so freaked out their breed is being discussed here will come down on that the way the good QH people came down on Cleve Wells. We all have assholes – but if we protect them, we’re assholes too.
Totally agree! But it can be shockingly hard to successfully “out” these trainers. They somehow have fan clubs that are like cults – I think its because they tend to have a lot of beginners that they don’t ever teach proper horsemanship, so how are they to know? These trainers are like idols to them. I’ve worked with one trainer in particular who I’ve done my best to intelligently “out” (explaining calmly why they are inept as trainers and borderline abusive), and people just don’t want to believe you. They make excuses and say it was a one time only thing or they try to tell everyone who will listen that you’re just upset you don’t work there anymore (ha! not for a million dollars). Well, newsflash to owners, you rarely see what goes on behind the scenes in a closed in arena or after dark if your trainer doesn’t want you to… Trust former employees, especially ones that were not fired but quit out of disgust.
I’ve seen trainers be like celebrities – no one wants to tell them they are wrong even when they are train wrecks. Many of the worst have the kind of charisma you see with A-list actors. They are often handsome, they are charming, they are believable to many. They put on a happy public face. I look at those pics of Cleve Wells on that stupid Going for Broke(n) thing with that little buckskin horse and the horse looks so calm and happy that I can only surmise it has never MET Cleve before the cover shoot.
What we ALL need to start doing is making sure we have a camera with us when we go to shows. If you see something, get video evidence FIRST. Then it’s not your word against BNT’s word. I’d LOVE to see people catch some of these assholes doing things they don’t want people to know they do. I might possibly be going to an Arab show in April, and you can bet I’ll have my camera with me. I hope I don’t see anything, because Arabs are my favorite breed and it will make me mad. But if I do, I’ll have evidence.
That’s exactly correct. Video does not lie (well, not without CGI that none of us can afford!). GET IT ON VIDEO. If you don’t, it’s your word against theirs and you will quickly be shrugged off as a disgruntled ex-client, someone they beat in the show ring, or an ex-girlfriend.
I highly recommend the Flip video camera. It’s about the size of a pack of cigarettes, and takes decent video (though it can be shaky, so works best when left on a flat surface).
It’s REALLY discreet.
Some of the shows, including Scottsdale, I think, are really uptight about people bringing cameras to the ring because of contracts with their pro videographers. I guess there’s always cell phone videos, but unless you’re right up close to whatever scandal you’re trying to capture, that may not do much good.
I agree that video evidence would help, but you just have to proceed with caution. As I understand it, you will be asked to leave Arab Nationals if you show up with equipment that might be threatening to the photog/videographers.
Of course, they don’t police the warmup rings, which is where the real action happens, but then you have to be discreet.
I worked with a Morgan trainer for several years and she was one of the best trainers I have ever seen. Her favorite discipline was the park/saddleseat classes, but the horse’s preferences/talent always came first. She had one gelding in particular that was a STUNNING liver chestnut and when turned out he naturally moved with very high action/flamboyance in a typical saddleseat frame. After seeing him move at liberty, I asked her why he wasn’t a saddleseat horse. Her answer? His previous owner pushed him too hard, used illegal training methods and fried his brain. He went ballistic if anyone approached him with saddleseat tack but loved the attention/cheering of the show ring, so she turned him into a hunter. He actually won (I believe) a national championship as a hunter but they had to be VERY careful with him at shows because if certain types of people approached his stall he just went nuts.
All this to say I did see her use some light “bracelets” and a stretchy cord on a couple horses to help improve their action, but it was never anything I would consider extreme or even questionable. She did explain HER mentality behind getting a horse amped for the show ring and to be honest, to me it felt like a horsey version of a pep talk before a big game. While she didn’t personally use fire extinguishers, she did explain that the appropriate way to use them was directed away from the horse, simply using the noise to get them on their toes -NOT to scare the horse or aim it at them. She had a tape of cheering spectators she would play and it was fascinating to see how the horses would hear that, stand up, flag their tails, prick their ears and instantly grow about a hand. LOL You could turn the tape off and they would almost wilt in front of you.
Granted, these were all Morgans, not Arabians, but she explained to me that since these horses were bred to be people oriented and show horses, they would give you a little something extra when a ton of people were cheering for them as opposed to exercising at home where it was quiet. All her horses were very well behaved, had turnout, lots of attention/exercise and would literally follow you around the pasture or hurry to the fence/front of their stall to greet you.
So there IS hope, there are still good trainers out there, even for more stylized disciplines!
Honestly, I don’t think the noise of a fire extinguisher is any worse than the noise of snow falling off the roof, and we just ride ‘em through that.
Cute idea about the crowd noise.
Yes!
Not all saddle seat people are crazy, though it can be hard to sort through the bad ones to the good ones. I still love saddle seat but switched to dressage because it was easier to find real horsemen there that actually work a horse through all those basics (I got pretty disgruntled when trying to find someone to work for that wasn’t family), and it just felt more authentic than the saddle seat ring had become (and I had seriously considered going pro in that field).
The best saddle seat horses are absolutely bred for it and really do like the thrill of the ring. They prick their ears and grow about 5 inches as they hit the in gate. Though it’s a little much when people start banging on the walls and shaking stuff from the rail, few of the horses are actually freaked out by it. They’ve been shown that stuff isn’t scary but interesting and part of the show. You really do have to feel a top saddle seat horse underneath you to understand; when he swells and and totally carries himself and your only job is to stay the heck out of the way and balanced on his back, steering every now and again with just the lightest touch of the aids (like a good jockey really). It’s pretty thrilling.
Also, the fire extinguishers are supposed to be used at the far end of the straightaway well in front of the horse as he’s coming around the other end. You really just want to “poof” it just a bit so the horse looks at the white stuff and hears the sound. They really aren’t afraid of it, they just look at it. If one is actually afraid of it, you do NOT get the reaction you want – you get a spin and a bolt in the opposite direction.
Honestly though, we never used a fire extinguisher as an “earing up” technique on our horses because a poof of baby powder and a little whistle accomplishes the same thing and is cheaper, haha. I know it seems weird, but most of these horses are the least spooky animals you’ll ever meet. Our top show horses were almost all great outside and could drop down and walk all day on the trail. And I’ve had this experience with saddlebreds, arabs, and morgans (though, to be fair, the arabs did tend to maintain the most flight response, haha, too darn smart is all).
Thank you
I worked at a Saddlebred barn that seemed fine at the surface but as I became more trusted as a groom I began to see the bad side of it. I hated when next to a horse’s name it said “Ears up” that mean one of two things. Either the assistant trainers would stand on oposite ends of the arena and crack the whip at the horse’s legs when they passed by, or they would spray the fire estiguisher at the horse to startle him. I never understood what the point was. You can’t do it in the show ring, so really how is it helping? This place also drugged their horses before preforming. When we were at a show one time the trainer injected one of the mares with something that was bright green. When I asked the mare to step up while I was grooming her, she lost her shit. Acted like I was going to kill her. And this was one of the few mares that did not get gingered, so I know that was not her problem. I will never work at another Saddlebred barn again. I felt like I was losing a piece of my soul by working there. I may have kept working just for the experience on my resume, but then the trainer let one of her old lesson horses colic to death. That was the last straw for me, and I finally quit.
I hear you. I worked for one of the biggest of the big time Saddlebred trainers for 10 days once..and I quit after those 10 days. There was no real blatent abuse as far as that industry goes, but I just couldn’t handle the tail sets, gingering, lip chains for everything, etc. I did board at a smaller but very successful Saddlebred barn while in college and found them to be very kind and normal. I still LOVE saddleseat and train Arabs for Saddeseat, but it is just different from the big-time Saddlebred world.
As for the fire extinguishers, baby powder, and such… that is not abuse. Our horses trot right on through all of it. They prick their ears and sit on their haunches and light up. It is no worse than a show trail horse dragging a tarp, or whatever they are required to do… or a police horse being desensitized. Our shows are not like Dressage shows. The music is pumping, people are cheering, all lot of adrenaline is flowing so our horses are trained that when they feel that kick of excitement they just sit down, drive, and go. When we free lunge our arabs we shake a plastic bag at them, they snort and prance, and then they prance right back up to the bag and wait for the next shake. If we pu the bag down, they come over and pick it up and then run off prancing and snorting.
When I was a teenager I went to apply for a job at a Saddlebred farm. A twenty minute tour later, I realized I wanted no part of it. Everything was standing in its stalls on a hot day, foamed up with sweat, tail sets and bitting rigs on. And I mean it had to be 95. This was in the Chicago area. Sure made polo look humane by comparison!
I will say that I do still want to ride a five-gaited horse once in my life…some day I’d like to visit Saddlebred Rescue and take one of their rescues for a spin and have someone give me a lesson!
If you live in the MN area you should email me if you ever find yourself in need of a groom. I would love to work for a good Arab trainer. Arabians after all are the best. kthtrainer@gmail.com
Well I have to say I dont think fire extinguishers are at all OK period. I really like a good english horse and used to ride saddleseat myself but really people when does the line get drawn? When my then 8 year old daughter wants to ride her hunter before her class at a Morgan regional and one of the BNT (who I have seen and yes has been CAUGHT drugging) lets loose with the fire extinguisher behind my child???? Where is the line drawn – fire crackers or whips with plastic – I really loved having that waved in my Morgan reiners face… at the same venue. And when I mentioned it to the show office – was told that I had to pay a fee and oh a picture would help (funny at this venue the show office is right next to the warm up rings). It is a slippery slope when chains are OK what about running Ws or ax handles? What about brightening them not with a fire extinguisher but by locking them in a dark stall for days until the only daylight they see is that 15 minute workout? This behavior and justification has made me sick sick sick and all the oh they are really not scared stuff is just talk – ask a newcomer to a rated show or a horseowner from a different discipline how they think the breed looks and if they would like to buy one – I have heard way too many folks leave showgrounds saying the opposite.
Personally I am burned out on the BS we have switched displines and while I love the breed I do not like crap like this that goes on nor the justification of it. If the horse cannot work in the displine chosen without all the whips and fire extinguishers then maybe they are not saddleseat horses and should not be harassed into being one.
I think it’s a bit of a stretch to compare fire extinguishers to locking a horse in a dark stall, tied up to “brighten it up.” For the record, I’ve been to numerous saddlebred and arab shows from local to nationals and have yet to see a horse tied up in a dark stall for this brightening affect… I’ve always heard rumors that that’s why some people have dark barns, but I think it’s BS, especially these days. I think the reason some people have dark barns is because they are just old barns. Not everyone has the kind of money to completely remodel a barn that lacks plenty of windows. I’ve met (and even briefly worked with) more than a few shady trainers, and that’s one thing I’ve never seen. I’m sure it’s happened, but it’s far from a regular or accepted thing.
Also, I did post earlier about the “flying Ws.” Again, they really can be a useful tool in the right hands and are actually intended to teach a horse to balance his extravagant gait. You provide a slight bit of resistance for them to balance against; you should NOT be taking their feet away. However, these are consistently misused, so I’m okay with them disappearing.
It is completely unfair that you had to deal with a fire extinguisher at a show. That has always been pretty regulated at the ASB and arab shows I’ve been to. People might bring out some baby powder and “poof” it a bit, and plastic bags tied to the end of crops are usually only seen before an ASB halter class (or maybe during a workout that’s not during show times). Warm ups can be a hectic place, but most saddle seat people I know are very respectful of other disciplines when warming up. And I can’t imagine anyone using firecrackers at a show and getting away with it (well, I can imagine it, but it’s certainly not typical).
There are bad apples in absolutely every bunch, but I think it’s a little unfair to assume that most trainers are one way because of the infinitely more memorable nasty trainers. I would agree that some disciplines are more in danger of sliding down a slipperly slope of training, so I’m not going to say saddle seat (like most disciplines that involve very subjective judging) doesn’t have its issues. But I think the “horrors” of saddle seat too often get exaggerated.
I agree completely. At Arab shows all motion enhancing gadgets are illegal, as is shagging a horse (except of course for the show appointed “shagger” before halter… which I hate). I am sorry that people were rude at your morgan show. On the whole, I have found people at my shows to be respectful. The fact that they were rude does not make fire extinguishers, baby powder, etc cruel to the horses that are trained to them, though. Your reining horse is trained for a sliding stop. My Saddleseat horses would find that maneuver cruel and unfair because they are not trained for it. Running at a dead gallop and slamming to a halt suddenly?????? OMG. My horses would just die. They are trained to sit and drive through potentially spooky situations, though. And let’s face it, our type of showing involves cheering crowds, loud music, and people doing stupid stuff on the rail. So hell yeah I have ridden through baby powder and even fire extinguisher smoke, just like police horses have been ridden through parades, gunfire, and all sorts of crap. Is jumping cruel, too because a horse not trained to it would be scared of the jumps?
I think the difference is that I’ve seen horses CHASED with a fire extinguisher. That’s what I object to. Merely having them learn to ride through smoke? Nothing wrong with that – and I’m guessing police horses undergo something similar in their training.
Sorry, but there is NO appropriate use of a fire extinguisher around a horse, except to put out a fire.
This is LUDICROUS!!
Do you see what you are doing there?
You are accepting abuse.
If you accept it, you condone it and you facilitate it’s use.
Fire Extinguishers are NOT horse training aids!
Yeah, I am with Kirri. Unless there’s a FIRE, put the FIRE EXTINGUISHERS away. They are not a training tool.
Sorry Fugly, this is the first time that I have ever disagreed with in the three?? years I have been a reader. I answered a few other people on this topic, so I know that you have seen my opinion. You are in fact the best debater on Earth, but I speak from experience with “spooky” Arabs and baby powder and fire extinguishers. My horses are just fine. They are trained to trot right on through anything, just like they do at horseshows. Thank you for all of your good work, and I do hate to not agree with you for the first time EVER.
It’s okay – I like it when people don’t agree with me 100% of the time. It proves you all have minds of your own and I don’t have some kind of cult-like control over my readers, as I’ve been accused of!
Feel free to disagree – it’s always welcome here.
It’s really not abuse… You should perhaps see it in action before calling abuse. There are a lot of things certain trainers do that are abuse, but this isn’t one of them, at least in anyway I’ve ever seen it used.
Just because something is ridiculous doesn’t make it abuse. I think it’s unnecessary, but again, it’s really not abusive. If you start calling everything abusive that seems strange, it weakens the statement when it’s used about something that actually is abusive (tasers to “spark up” halter horses, excessive whipping/spurring, bloody mouths from too harsh bits, that pony one poster described tied up in his stall, etc…) I have way more of a problem with the too long feet/heavy shoes many rely on (and I still wouldn’t go so far as to call that abuse, just poor horsemanship).
It’s totally fine to find the practice unnecessary, perhaps uncalled for and certainly strange, but I just can’t call it abuse. It doesn’t even bug most horses that trainers use it on let alone panic or terrify them (again, I haven’t used them on my horses and don’t even ride saddle seat anymore, but have seen many people do so without any bad results.) The intent is not to terrify, confuse, or panic. It’s used far away from the horse and makes a little “poof” sound and also puffs out some white fluff. And if a horse doesn’t respond well to it, the trainer isn’t going to use it again, it just wouldn’t produce the inteded result (pricked ears).
Ridiculous? Yes. Abusive? Hardly.
Of course it’s flipping abuse, you have just become habitualised to it, so you accept it. What’s next, that’s what you have to ask yourself, if you accept a bloody FIRE EXTINGUISHER (!!) when that stops working, what do you do then?
Hit it with a chair to make it perky?
Is that OK????
Using violence in training can only be escalated, that is the whole problem with violent “training” methods, you have to get more and more violent.
I don’t understand it, if you tried ANY of these tricks in the UK you would be off the showground and quite possibly in jail, so flipping fast you would not touch the ground twice!
Yet it’s OK cos YOU say it’s not abuse?
I do not think so.
Just step back and take a long hard look at the road you are travelling, and take a look at where it is taking you.
Then tell me using a fire extinguisher (I still can’t really believe this, I really can’t!) is not abusive training methods!
as far as the fire extinguisher, it seems to me it depends on your intent. We use a lot of bizarre and noisy items near our Arabs to desensitize them. It is never done in an abusive way, and we sure don’t chase them down with the intent of doing so. It is introduced gradually and calmly until the horse is able to walk by and ignore it. Makes them safer as posse mounts as well as trail horses. Granted we don’t do a lot of showing and its never done to make them “purty”, its done simply to make a horse that is as close to bomb proof as they can get. Hell, you could shoot off the back of my horse without him so much as flicking an ear.
The good barn I mentioned was Orrion Farms in Ellensberg WA.
They stand RSD Dark Victory, his son OFW Merlot — and their newly crowned Scottsdale Reserve Champion Magic Wan. Dark Victory was one of the horses Boggs got his wrist slapped for (should have had his head handed to him) and Orrion owned him at the time. I love Dark Victory, but I sure wasn’t expecting to respect his owners. I did notice that Boggs doesn’t train their horses anymore — Michael Byatt does. I have no idea why that is and I didn’t ask. Again, I don’t know anything about Michael Byatt except that one of my mares was shown to regionals in halter (Top Five Region Five) with him and showed no signs of abuse when I got her for what it’s worth. I’ve seen a youtube clip where he hops on to Marwan Al Shaqab’s back at an International show to prove that he is rideable , but that’s the only handling I’ve seen Byatt do (since I don’t get out to the big shows).
So going out to look at a specific mare — I knew the whole thing about Dark Victory and was prepared to see what I’ve seen at other big show barns. And I didn’t.
Orrion Farms keeps their old brood mares when their days as breeding mares are done and they good care of them — I saw a number of fat and happy mares in their late twenties early thirties. All with feet done and the ones who needed blankets were blanketed. Their stallions get turned out in fields of their own, right next to other horses so they aren’t isolated. Babies are turned out to play in large groups of same age, same sex horses. And their stallions are very personable. Dark Victory in particular is a real sweetie. All of their horses are broke to ride at age three or four — except for one awesome mare who “they put right in the breeding shed” as soon as they could. Not a horse likely to end up at auction. And by hang, they gelding their Top Ten Stallion Majesstic(a Besson Carol son) who is gorgeous and doubtless cost them a fortune and would have made them a mint in the halter world because of temperament issues. I saw a lot of geldings there and only one or two stud colts over the age of three.
I’m not involved with Orrion Farms in any way. I don’t work for them, I don’t show. I’ve bought four horses from them in the past two years because I am happy with the generally good frame of mind the horses came to me with — respectful but obviously think people are good things. Two of them were shown at halter without blowing their minds (or someone did a heck of a rehab job). I bought the horses because I like the good mind and better hindquarters Dark Victory puts on his babies and grand babies. The saddle broke horses I bought (with 60 days) knew their stuff and were well started with no issues. The other horses were young stock, not handled a lot, but halter broken and good for the farrier and grooming. I am unlikely to buy any more horses (from Orrion Farms or anyone else) in the next twenty years because I have enough horses . I have no axe to grind and no reason to cheer and so consider myself reasonably unbiased. They are doing a good job.
I do lust after their barns
Thanks! I love it when people post good reviews here too – we need the balance, and I WANT people to give their training and horse purchase dollars to the good guys!
I love that Orrion have nice geldings for sale on their site. In fact it’s probably a decent rule of thumb for evaluating all breeders: do they have quality ridden geldings available? Because if not, they are probably doing it wrong.
Fugs – of the three Pr-Matthew halter handlers/trainers that had this horse, Gil is probably the most humane. He and Sandro (who left Midwest after tons of issues – mainly Boggs not wanting him to handle horses that might beat his horse in the ring, and worse…) are not as notoriously cruel as the other two you mention. I’ve seen horses that Sandro has handled and then sold come up to Sandro years later and love on him… Arabs don’t do that to someone they dislike. Whether Gil is the same or not, I don’t know, but I would assume. (which is risky, yes…) Sandro also trained a friend of mine, and she’s one of the best ammy halter handlers I know – she trains her own horses in halter, and breaks the to ride and shows them. She’s also one of the biggest softies I know – treating all 6 of her arabs as if they were high maintenance china dolls. They are wonderful animals, too.
I have PERSONAL knowledge of the mistreatment & neglect that takes place with horses at Midwest. I have seen what comes off the trailer when you buy a horse from their show barn, and then pull him home… its not pretty and took over a year to rememedy the physical problems that were NOT there when he was purchased. There are some behavioral things that still linger too… but thankgod he’s got an amazing heart.
Here’s the deal with the wacked out Arab Halter (not unlike AQHA): Money talks. If the people who are stupid enough to agree to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on horses that are built for yard art only, then that’s what the greedy BNT will give them. Until you can EDUCATE and OVERWHELM the money holders with facts and alternative options to the stance and conformation they are currently seeing, then you will continue to have these abuses, either in the ring, the barn, or the back 40 at 2AM. The BNT see this as their money ticket – and have and WILL intimidate all who try to a:speak out and b:show against them. Exhibit A: Scottsdale refuses to follow AHA halter rules (and will continue to do so while ignorant people spend massive amounts of money on the Scottsdale winners) and Exhibit B: Scottsdale 2009 Magnum Psyche confrontation with people yelling explitives at the judge who wanted to disqualify on the basis of a whip mark.
And please don’t get me started on saddle seat.
sign me,
An Arab Sport Horse owner with numerous regional championships and national top tens who loves showing in the ring judged by USEF /FEI Judges… not AHA judges…..
THANK YOU. This is the kind of information I’m looking for. I need the insider track from people who have seen these people work with horses. Valdez was the name I saw keep coming up – who else worked with the horse? If he’s scared to death to be in a show ring, why? Surely someone has seen something. What and who?
And yeah, I haven’t heard many good things about Midwest.
“Scottsdale 2009 Magnum Psyche confrontation with people yelling explitives at the judge who wanted to disqualify on the basis of a whip mark.”
See, this is where you need the video. Put the expletive-screamers on the web for all to see. I bet some of them would not want their bosses, business associates and church members to see how they spend their free time.
Everyone is looking for a trainer to blame, assuming the owners, who train their own and client horses, didn’t create the situation.
Again, Scapa has only been off of their farm twice except to show. I have seen the owner nearly take down a different stallion in the show ring because he went after him too (Egyptian Event 2008 Saturday night finals). Judges didn’t see it (probably 16 stallions in the ring), no video, no punishment, no crime. This problem was not created by Gil or Matthew.
By the way, owner has now stated on another site that they didn’t intend to show him and made a last minute decision Tuesday night because he looked so good. Yet, his number was 579 and name was apparently printed in the show program. Entries were due 12/15/09.
Yep, LOL’ing at THAT lie. Keep it up Wanda. You’re entertaining us over here!
I wouldn’t know myself, but other people on the Arab board say that to bring a stallion to “present” to the public at Scottsdale is quite common, and that any stallion on the grounds must be registered for the show (even though they might not actually take him in any classes).
I posted it earlier:
Scapa’s past trainers reported to be Greg Knowles, Gil Valdez, and Frank Spoenle.
Spoenle got the online eyerolling…
Interesting. What else do we know about him?
I watched the halter class you mentioned in 09. I was there! I cheered for Joey Canda for enforcing the rules in the halter ring! Magnum had a whip mark, Boggs knew it, and the only person who was willing to stand up was Joey.
We have rules governing treatment and exhibition of these horses. We need judges like Joey who enforce these rules, and stewards who will truly take time to inspect every horse, stem to stern, before entering the ring.
*shakes head* It’s hard to beleive that this kind of thing goes on still. The whole Magnum Psyche situtation is really disappointing. Arabians are supposed to be known for their “Kind, gentle yet still spirited personalities”, but when horses like Scapa are presented it creates a bad image for the breed in general. There was an article in the Arabian Horse World magazine talking about the breeds bad reputation for “craziness”, but what Scapa did…..wow! I don’t care how good his bloodlines are (a son of Mishaal, Arabian ltds next step in their breeding program) he needs “brain surgery” asap if it is a genetic thing. If not, I hope someone mentally rehabs him from whatever horrible abuse he underwent to make him do that.
I agree entirely with your post, except… what is your problem with saddleseat?
There are apparently some pictures of the incident on the Arabian breedrs board. But it wouldn’t let me view. Has anyone here seen them? Plus the owner pretty much got caught in a lie trying to smooth it over. She claims they decided to enter the horse at thelast minute, but someone else said ” how’s that possible if his name was in the show program for that class”. Knowing, to be in the program, he would have to been enter months before.
ROTFL! ROTFL! ROTFL!
Buuuuuusted.
Both Morafic and Nazeer had reputations for bad dispositions. Whether it was management or heredity, can’t say, but the bloodlines do have a reputation for nastiness. There are, of course, exceptions, but the “new Egyptian” berd horses are often viewed as having poor dispositions, while the “old Egyptian” (i.e. pre-Nazeer) horses are considered pretty decent.
I remember witnessing in person a trainer named Tony Boit whipping and beating a young filly many, many years ago. Is he still around?
I have an Arab mare with Morafic and Nazeer in her lines, she’s not too heavily line-bred, but they do appear in her pedgree multiple times.
She’s a good horse. She’s never been the friendliest horse, but she’s calm and intelligent and is an awesome trail horse. Typical somewhat spooky arab, does the telport maneuver if the dirt changes color, but otherwise a nice horse. I competed her in NATRC and got as high as 2nd place regionally on her. She was never shown in arab breed shows, not nice enough conformation for that.
Now I use her to give riding lessons to small children, she’s a great babysitter (she’s 19 now).
The Thoroughbred stallion Halo was extremely dangerous, as was his 2nd dam Almamoud.
When the farm that stood him most of his life bought him, he wore a muzzle, and the owner didn’t think he needed one, just proper handling, and for months they had no issues with him. Then he attacked a groom, dove his head into the groom’s abdomen, taking him down to the ground and going onto his knees to follow and keeping biting.
After that he always wore the muzzle when being handled, as the owner of the farm said for months there would be nothing, then he would attack. He always attacked things that were in his paddock, including birds and squirrels.
He passed this on to his offspring, though his two sons at stud here that had some success were both very kind, easy to handle horses (Devil’s Bag and Saint Ballado).
IAnother son Sunday Silence went to Japan for stud, and was very dangerous himself-you may remember before either the Preakness or the Belmont he rang his trainer’s bell pretty good during filming of a fluff piece for TV. Now Japan is apparently being over run with skinny, mean, dark little TBs. (I also understand they encourage rough behavior-I have no first hand knowledge, only grooms saying that in Japan they like a ‘spirited’ horse, and do nothing to curb it.)
Some of the Devil’s Bags can be rough, I understand, I’ve not heard that about the Saint Ballado’s though.
I know that much of Fusaichi Pegasus’ craziness was blamed on Halo (2nd damsire I think)
I have read that there were many trainers that refused Halo offspring, even from daughter’s of Halo.
He was a nasty piece of work (I admit it. I’m a HUGE fan. I even had a grandson of his-but he was a cross, and totally sane. I made sure of that. I’d prefer to NOT be eaten.) The problem is, they were so fast, and if you got them for sport horses-beautiful, beautiful movers. Sunday Silence was beautiful in motion.
Whirlaway was a nasty horse, they say it came from his father, Blenheim.
However, Ribot was extremely dangerous, and they believe it’s due to a groom who took training him upon himself and made him that way. I’ve not read complaints about his offspring like I have about Halo (and another not famouse sire-they stopped breeding him after his first crop were about 8 months old and trying to kill everything in sight).
If you can breed a horse for docility, why could you accidentally breed the opposite?
http://www.behindthebitblog.com/2009/12/meanest-thoroughbred-stallions-ever.html
I tried to post this yesterday, but had many login issues.
A concise writeup on bad TB stallions (mostly) with links to follow for further information.
We had a half arab half TB mare when I was a kid. She had lovely gaits and conformation, jumped like a deer, but was only interested in trotting. She was a joy to ride as long as you trotted. You could post for an hour and not feel tired. Smooooooth. She fought everything else. My mother originally bought her to breed to Silky Sullivan but gave up because she decided the mare was neurotic. She tried to sell her but the only people who came to see her were looking to buy that “dream horse” for their daughters who could not handle the mare during a test ride. My mother was afraid the horse would end up hurting inexperienced girls or reproducing and had the mare euthed.
wow. I knew all the stories about Hastings and Fair Play…and the mare I’m buying is a Northern Dancer granddaughter, who threw some pretty nasty horses (although she’s a nice gal).
I also found this story about my gelding’s grandsire, Drone, which is weird, b/c Alex is a super sweet boy, even though he was gelded at 5!
“What a great thread…hope there are a LOT MORE posts here….!!! I was at Claiborne last fall looking at stallions and was told that Seeking The Gold is never shown to anyone anymore since he too, will savage his grooms. You aren’t even allowed very close to his door. They also told me that Drone was the meanest horse they ever stood. He once reached over the fence and took a toddler out of the arms of her mother!…shook her and dropped her!! Needless to say…they never showed him anymore, either!”
(http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6091&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=9f72452c4b7439fc3ad4f5f467ee0987)
Do you know anything more about Ribot? That is my mare’s great grandsire. I am kicking around the idea of looking for another horse out of Ribot. I’ve never had a problem with aggression, or mare problems for that matter. My mare has a huge heart, and I own her daughter. Only thing I can say is that you cannot push these horses, or they will fight you. Training is a bit slow…but I’ve won numerous fairs and rodeos with the mare and her filly will be seasoned this summer!
Pictures of him in the class are available at http://www.osteenschatzbergphotos.com/. Navigate to 2010 Scottsdale Arabian Horse Show»FEB 19, FRIDAY»Wendell»Morning»385 – Arabian Breeding – Halter 5 Year Old Stallions
The thoroughbred Seattle Slew seemed to put aggression into his offspring. Looking for a stud for a friends horse we looked at maybe 15 different stallions to choose one that was a goof fit for her mare and her goals with the offspring. Most of the stallions were reasonably gentle… one of his sons… (won’t mention names) was downright dangerous. I encountered 3 other geldings (gandsons of slew), all 3 downright dangerous. 2 of them, i had no idea of their history but actually tried to attack people and were dangerous to ride. The third was owned by a wonderful couple who had bred him, broke him and retired him after an unsuccessful racing career. The wife tried to make him her riding horse and she had the patience of a saint… he was nasty as anything and constantly pinned his ears and bit people and other horses. The vet couldnt find anything wrong and he had FANTASTIC loving care…. I thought he belonged in a can… he eventually deliberately hurt the woman and put her in the hospital.
He was then retired down south on huge turnout. He actually killed another horse in his turnout… The owner is still paying his bills.
Now, that’s not my experience at all about the Slews…I wonder if what you saw came from another bloodline in that horse’s history?
Of course, you can make anything nuts. And it always bears noting that almost all OTTB’s are insane for about 3 months after the track and this is not in any way indicative of their true personality. They are detoxing like druggies in rehab (sometimes literally) and their behavior reflects that.
-And it always bears noting that almost all OTTB’s are insane for about 3 months after the track and this is not in any way indicative of their true personality. They are detoxing like druggies in rehab (sometimes literally) and their behavior reflects that.-
I couldn’t agree more with the detoxing comment! My OTTB gelding was a nightmare when I bought him, he’d pin his ears, kick/strike at and charge anyone who dared enter “his space”. It took quite a bit longer than 3 months for him to “detox” BUT now he’s one of our most trustworthy trail horses. I often get comments on my “wonderful Quarter Horse gelding” and I always have a good chuckle at the horrified look on people’s faces when I tell them he is an OTTB and that he raced until he was 7 yrs old
Well, maybe the horses i have met were simply anomalies… they were all of the track for a number of years after i had met them. It could simply be previous handling for the ones i didn’t know the history of, however the woman i knew personally raised her horse “Slew” from a baby. You couldn’t ask for a kinder horse trainer and handler.
We were all devastated when her horse hurt her so badly.
You never know. They are huge animals and can hurt us very quickly if something sets them off.
All three of the above named halter “trainers” can be nasty. I’ve had a personal and negative exchange with Knowles in the past, as well as seen Valdez ( I don’t trust anyone who has spent any length of time working for the Boggs boys). What is said in public is not what goes on the rest of the time, and that’s a fact. No “trainer” (and I use the term very loosely) is going to tell a halter client the real story….it’s all carrots and sweetness. There are some exceptions, guys who have made a concerted effort to change. Michael Byatt is one, as far as I can tell.
Scottsdale is a show that requires pre-entries….no post entries allowed, even in performance championships, which is very unusual (but a good money-maker). Many horses are entered just in case they decide they may want to show, but then they make the decision as the show gets closer. So they may well have entered him even if they hadn’t yet decided to show.
Scottsdale also has, because of pressure from the halter “trainers”, dropped its halter classes from AHA/USEF approval, in order to bypass the scorecard. This also seems to exempt those classes from anti-abuse rules, and anything goes, it seems, because it’s an “open” show, not bound by AHA USEF rules (at least halter isn’t).
signed,
Retired pro Arab trainer
>>( I don’t trust anyone who has spent any length of time working for the Boggs boys)< <
I don’t either. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.
Yes, Virginia
1989 Copyright by Charles & Jeanne Craver Craver
Charles & Jeanne Craver
Rt 2 Box 262
Winchester Il 62694
(217) 742-3415
All rights reserved
from Arabian Visions March 1990
originally published in the Craver’s newsletter, Our Quest.
Used by permission of Charles & Jeanne Craver Craver
So you’ve been to the show all on your own. Ventured out without a guide. Seen the beautiful horses. Watched the crowd. Cheered the glory of champions.
The people you met told you “the real truth” about Arabians: How they are bigger and better than they used to be. How they trot faster and higher. How their necks and legs are longer and their heads prettier. And, yes, Virginia, how they will make you money if you buy them.
And then they told you that nobody believes in pedigrees any more, that you just breed best to best, that the names of old-time horses are only names, that this is a new and better breed which is right for our own time and place. “It’s the breed of the future,” they say.
You ask if all this is true.
Yes, Virginia. It is true. That is the way things are in the shows and magazines. That is what Arabian horse registries and associations are all about. That is what many people want. That is what they call an Arabian, in the real world.
Is that your world, Virginia?
Do you believe in horses that, when you look at them, you know are something special, something that wasn’t “made” by somebody but was created just the way it ought to be?
Do you not believe in some things? Do you not believe in horses that have to be clipped and shaved and shined and trimmed and cosmetized and shaped in mind and body to be worth looking at? Do you not believe in horses that look like they ought to look only when they are in the show ring and made to pose by a poseur? Do you not believe in horses that have to be whipped to be alert, that have to gesticulate with their legs to perform while their heads go in just whichever way they were twisted before they got in the ring?
Why don’t you ask the people with these horses what they did with the other kind of Arabian horse? What happened to the Arab that anyone can ride: Mom, Pop, Kid or Grand-dad? And is still good enough for the best rider you ever knew to enjoy? What happened to the horse that thinks; that is a little bit of human, a little bit of elf, maybe a little bit of donkey?
And how about that horse we find in Job: Lively as a locust and beyond submission? What about the horse of the desert, from whom we have all these things, though no one seems ever to have seen a perfect example. What about that horse God gave to his sons of the desert as a companion, a helper, a defender, a heritage for his people? Was that horse a gift to you, too?
There really are such horses, Virginia. There is more to Arabians than you saw at the show. No studbook can hold these horses completely. No trainer can compel their beauty. No person can totally own one. Artists try to catch their being, but it is beyond paint and description.
It is beyond us all, but it is the real thing.
Those others they call “Arabians” may be lovely horse, but not for us, Virginia.
Not for us.
Very cool. For those who don’t know, these people breed Davenport Arabians which are known for being great riding horses, but are not at all “modern type.”
…I want one!
Careful Jennifer…the Davenport Conspiracy will suck you in.
Seriously, you should consider it. Can’t buy a better friend than these horses.
ok, so I have to add my two cents on this one; I have bred, trained and shown Arabs since the early 70′s. I am horrified by what “we” have done to this breed and I gelded my stallion and quit breeding about 15 years ago.
I know all but one of the trainers that are being talked about and you guys haven’t even stratched the surface of the abuse that these horses endure. Abusive tainers simply got more creative after they finally decided to enforce the whip rules – now we do things like using a cattle prod to shock a horse in his sheath in order to get him “up” for a halter class. Yes, that is still happening in many of the barns that show A system halter horses. Why? Because owners and industry professionals aren’t willing to call bullshit and make this stop. Knowledgable people don’t stand up and say it’s wrong – Oh, it’s just a fire extinguisher; oh, those are just fire crackers that they’re throwing at the horses; I guess the horse really did need to be tied in the stall and beaten. REALLY? WTF.
You are why people hate this blog, even more than me…because I do let people who have been in the industry tell their tales anonymously. And the last thing the big money in horses wants is for these stories to get out.
One thing I don’t think a lot of the newbie amateur owners understand is that horse abusers can be VERY NICE in person. They can be charming and seem to love horses, etc. If you don’t have an open barn that you can walk into anytime – beware. If the trainer tells you that you can’t watch the entire time at a show (warm up ring, grooming, etc.) – beware.
If my daughter’s preschool told me, “no, no, you can’t watch what we do with your child. It might look a little scary to you, and she will look distressed, but believe us, it will make her perform better” you can BET they’d eat our dust, and the local authorities would be getting a call, as well as anyone who’d recommended the place.
WTF is wrong with people? I know, I know, we all think that 1,000,000,000,000 times over with ever FHOTD entry, but seriously…. even if you were a somewhat impartial rich owner, wouldn’t you at least care a LITTLE bit about the welfare of your massive investment?
Capitalism FAIL……… Oh, wait. *insert kneejerk anti-voodoo-economics comment here*
WOW!! A lot has changed since my grandma raised Arabians. Her breeding stallion in his younger days had his halter fall off in his halter class. He stood there while it was picked up and put back on. What’s up with this charging around after other stallions teeth bared and tromping the hell out of the handlers?? If I was into breeding I sure wouldn’t pick either one of those stallions, I don’t care how “flashy” or beautiful they looked. As for Mr. Attack x 3 he would be subtraction of 1 set of 2
I remember my grandma talking about some of the stuff trainers were doing to Arabs back in the 70′s and she would not send any of her horses to any of those trainers. I remember her talking of some trainers swimming the horses and then zapping them with electrical current while in the pool. Her main trainer was (most likely retired by now as this was quite a few years ago) Jerry Blake on the West side of Washington state.
Well, I hope whoever “fried Scapa’s brain” learned their lesson.
Even if he IS a great horse underneath all of this, I hope he is gelded. Even if he has great breeding, there are other stallions with great breeding that will not risk people and other horses safety.
As far as they’re concerned, there isn’t a lesson to be learned!!!! As far as they’re concerned there isn’t anything wrong with what they are doing!!! That’s the whole point here – they think that it’s just a horse and because we have the opposable thumb we have the right to do whatever we want to horses. I’ll bet you $50.00 that Scapa won’t be gelded and the indicent will be blown off as an anomaly and he will go on to have a long breeding career. I know the trainer who “fried” Scapa’s brain and he has been doing this to horses for 30 years!!!!!!!! This is not an isolated incident and will not be addressed by all of us saying ‘I hope they learned a lesson’ and going on with our lives. Until we remove the financial incentive – that would be owners who blindly follow trainers – these assholes will continue to do all of these things to horses. And every breed has their own version of these horrors.
If you think that your own breed’s version of “training” is abusive then don’t be quiet and just go along. START SCREAMING AND KEEP SCREAMING UNTIL SOMEBODY HEARS YOU. Don’t be quiet when you see a trainer at a show being abusive – GET IN THEIR FACE AND CALL BULLSHIT. That is how it stops – you shine a light on it and call it WRONG.
To be honest I don’t have a specific breed that I love. Just horses. ANY abuse, no matter what breed, bothers me. I would NOT get in their faces, because honestly, that wont change anything except putting my own horse in danger. I WOULD report them, don’t doubt it. And I would make sure something was done about it.
This is a very high-profile case and I don’t know of anything I can personally do to help. If you do, however, I would love to know it.
While I don’t know Scapa’s owners personally, as it happens, I have a horse from their farm. Without going into a lot of detail, I contacted them as my new horse’s papers had the back signed 10 years ago, but no one had ever made the switch, so I wanted to know from the original owners if there would be a problem given the timespan between them signing the back and me sending it off to AHA for transfer. One of the first topics of the conversation was their inquiry as to what I did for a living and my financial situation…as their business is to get others into the Arabian business. I’m definitely not a candidate, for a multitude of reasons, for their mentoring
While I did not come away from the conversation feeling that I’d spoken with the spawn of satan per se, it was ever so clear that they are into the Arabian ‘business’ and as such, horses are commodities. Since then it has come to my attention a few times over the last few years when they have given away both young horses (geldings, ‘too small’ at less than 15.0 hd mature) or broodmares who have outlived their usefulness in the breeding shed. I think it is the later practice, of turning away aged mares that can no longer produce foals, which turns my stomach the most. The last one was an ancient mare which had produced several ( I believe at least four) foals which were sold for 6 figures and exported. It seems to me that this mare had comfortably earned her retirement with the care which she had become accustomed during her producing days. Not to be shuffled off as a no longer producing commodity.
Anyway, my little fellow is a character and a half, easily the smartest cookie in the barn (the other 3 are TBs). If you asked him, he’d say “smarter than the other 3 horses and the human”
“One of the first topics of the conversation was their inquiry as to what I did for a living and my financial situation…as their business is to get others into the Arabian business.”
That was obvious from their web site and facebook page too. It’s a business and the goal is to make a lot of money. Sheesh, I thought the crash of 1980-whatever taught these people a lesson but apparently not.
Ah yes, but there’s a whole new generation of noveau riche that were mere babes in the 1980s and are ripe for the pickin’. Take your pick of applicable quotes:
There’s a fool born every minute…
A fool and his money are soon parted…
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it…
True, true, TRUE…
And it all goes back to what I say constantly – why doesn’t anyone do the same research when getting into the HORSE business that they’d do if they wanted to start a dry cleaner’s, or a restaurant, or anything else? Why, when it’s even more important because lives are at stake, do they plunge mindlessly into it without taking any time to find out the facts?
I hear ya, but really – consider how many people have *any* critical thinking skills these days about *anything*!
How can the Nigerian scams be the number one complaint to the FTC with an average loss of $5K? If they can get away with this:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Monetary loss estimates
Estimates of the total losses due to the scam vary widely. The Snopes website lists the following estimate:
“ The Nigerian scam is hugely successful. According to a 1997 newspaper article: “We have confirmed losses just in the United States of over $100 million in the last 15 months,” said Special Agent James Caldwell, of the Secret Service financial crimes division. “And that’s just the ones we know of. We figure a lot of people don’t report them.”[8] â€
Although the “success rate” of the scam is hard to gauge, some experienced 419 scammers get one or two interested replies for every thousand messages. Stephanie Nolen of The Globe and Mail said that an experienced scammer can expect to make at least several thousand dollars per successful scam letter.[43]
Since 1995, the United States Secret Service has been involved in combating these schemes. The organization doesn’t investigate unless the monetary loss is in excess of 50,000 US Dollars. However, very few arrests and prosecutions have been made due to the international aspect of this crime.
In 2006, a report by a research group concluded that Internet scams in which criminals use information they trick from gullible victims and commonly strip their bank accounts cost the United Kingdom economy £150 million per year, with the average victim losing £31,000.[44]
Nelson Sakaguchi, a director at the Brazilian bank Banco Noroeste, transferred hundreds of millions of US$ to Chief Emmanuel Nwude, Nigeria’s most accomplished scammer.[45] The scam led to at least two murders, including that of one of the scammers, Mr. Bless Okereke. The scam was the third biggest in banking history, after Nick Leeson’s activities at Barings Bank, and the looting of the Iraqi Central Bank following the March 2003 US invasion.[45]
In 2008, an Oregon woman, Janella Spears, lost $400,000 to a Nigerian advance-fee fraud scam, after an e-mail told her she had inherited money from her long-lost grandfather. Her curiosity was piqued beause she actually had a grandfather who her family had lost touch with, and whose initials matched those given in the e-mail. Spears sent hundreds of thousands of dollars over a period of more than two years, despite her family, bank staff and law enforcement officials all urging her to stop.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
selling a pig in a poke (or an Arab farm as a moneymaking scheme!) probably seems like a walk in the park.
Sometimes I think a course in skepticism should be required somewhere along the way!!
Like I say – Judgmentarded. It’s not the same as stupidity, per se. It’s just this total lack of any ability to apply common sense to come to a logical answer or course of action.
Another good example of it:
http://artoftrolling.com/2010/02/25/r-kelly-could-pull-it-off-probably/
The reason people are scammed by the scammers is simple:
GREED.
The reason people think that it is OK to do anything at all, in order to win, is simple.
Greed.
This is the basis of all the evil being practised .
This is the reason that there will always be someone that will say “Oh….insert abuse of choice….is not cruel, it is an acceptable training method, used correctly.”
Greed.
So, just how do we change the attitudes that began when man first stood upright?
Shame. Shame is just as strong, if not stronger, than greed. I’d argue that it’s stronger. Why do MOST of us not steal from our employers? You could argue it’s some built in code of ethics but I think that’s just what we’d like to believe about ourselves. I think the MAIN reason MOST people don’t do that is shame. They don’t want to be in the newspaper. They don’t want to disappoint their loved ones. They don’t want to be gossipped about. They sure as hell don’t want to go to jail. Shame and consequences are what control human behavior the most. I could write a 20 page paper about how most major religions’ main tools are shame and consequences.
As the primary owner of the stallion, Scapa, I have a few things to say to set the record straight. Until recently I had no idea that a “gossip†venue like this even existed. Just the other night someone sent me an email stating that people were “trashing my horse†and attached a link to the site. After reading some of the postings it struck me as to how true the old saying is, “you don’t know what you don’t know,†but that sure didn’t stop people from posting an opinion! As I read one after the other I was struck by several emotions that spanned quite a range. At some I was amused but at some I was aghast! Some contained a glimmer of truth and some bore none at all. Some really seemed to have little to do with horse or handler, merely being an opportunity to snipe and belittle others who had posted opinions.
I was surprised at how many people were willing to pontificate on a subject about which they knew very little or nothing at all…and put it in writing! But, when I looked closer I realized the number was really quite small, and I was encouraged. Evidently there are a few people out there with way too much time on their hands. One thing I do know is that anyone who is criticizing Scapa’s owners and the way we might have treated him have never visited our farm and clearly don’t know Matthew Gales.
What follows is the truth behind the awful situation that unfolded on Friday, February 19th in Scottsdale. Scapa did go to a different training facility in Scottsdale in the fall of 2008 and when he came home he had stomach ulcers and a new attitude. We attributed it to the fact that in Scottsdale he had very little out time and he was used to wide open pastures and lots of green grass back home. We had no intention of showing him in 2009, he stayed home to breed his book of mares. In May of 2009 Annabella Gelbard and Matthew Gales of Brookville Arabians visited our farm and they got to meet Scapa. They both immediately fell in love. Matthew, especially, fell in love and was eager to be associated with him so we gave him the opportunity to school him here. It was obvious from the first moment that Scapa loved Matthew and Matthew loved Scapa. It seemed a match made in heaven, so Matthew made several trips back and forth to school Scapa and help us in many ways to prepare his future.
In December Scapa was transported to Brookville to begin his preparation for the World Cup in Las Vegas. We had no intention of showing him in Scottsdale, but we entered him just to keep his name out there and our options open. When he was presented at the Brookville Open House on Tuesday evening, the 16th, he was incredible. He looked great, behaved well and people actually wept upon seeing him! A groundswell developed and several attendees encouraged us to show him. Not for the ribbon as some have suggested, but for the exposure. As it turns out, that exposure wasn’t so good. As to what actually happened in the ring, I was there but I DID NOT actually see, with my own eyes, any of the occurrences, even though I was in the arena myself! But according to Matthew, it was not at all as has been portrayed! Nonetheless, I will not speak for Matthew but rather allow him to post if he so chooses.
The outcome was terrible, and almost tragic. I, like several others, am highly upset that there was no ambulance on site. Waiting on an ambulance to arrive from central Scottsdale is unacceptable but I will reserve judgment because it’s possible that there may have been another accident about which I am unaware and they may have been in route to a hospital with another injured party. Thankfully, Matthew is doing well. It could have been much worse. Matthew’s first words after we were allowed to visit him in the hospital trauma center were, “It wasn’t Scapa’s fault. He wasn’t ready.†For those of you who are so eager to criticize halter trainers and owners, I suppose some may be deserving but Matthew Gales certainly is not. We are proud to have him train our horses precisely because of how he treats our animals: with love, dignity and respect. Any suggestion that Matthew beat or otherwise mistreated Scapa obviously comes from an uninformed source.
The good news is Matthew will be fine. He is out of the hospital and back to work, albeit in a limited capacity for a while. As to the future, Scapa will be heading back home soon and we will take it one day at a time. He may or may not ever show again, we’ll see. Certainly we will be letting his babies show for him in any case.
As for me, I will not comment further on this site but if you’d like to discuss anything about this incident, or any other topic, please feel free to contact me by phone, 706 397-9950 or email, info@paradisearabians.com.
in the meantime the relationship between Paradise Arabians and Brookville Arabians, the Kenworthy family and Matthew Gales, remains strong; and our love of Scapa remains strong as well. And, Scapa’s international legacy as a sire continues with another successful sale to Germany. We like to extend a special thanks to Matthew Gales, Elisa and Frank Sponle, and Frank Sponle Training Center for their assistance.
First of all, I do not believe anyone criticized Matthew – in fact, I noted in my original post that I had not seen a bad word said about him, anywhere, so I do not believe he was the source of the horse’s problems. We all wish him a speedy recovery.
What most people here believe – and I concur – is that Scapa has been abused by ANOTHER trainer in his past. You seem to be saying that IS what happened. Please name the name. The truth is not libel – never has been, never will be. We have to have the spine to name names, or beautiful horses will continue to be mistreated and traumatized, and others will continue to be left to try to pick up the emotional pieces – sometimes at the risk of a trip to the emergency room.
Your horse is absolutely beautiful, and I am very sorry to hear of his experience at the former trainer’s, but for the sake of Arabian horses everywhere, we need to know who that person is.
Could a former trainer of Scapa be Frank Holloman, shown on this forum whipping a horse from Paradise Arabians (NOT to be confused with Paradise EGYPTIAN Arabians)?
http://www.discussion.egyptianbreeders.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=3202&view=findpost&p=64118
I want to second Fugly when she applauds you for coming forward. I also will take exception to some of your comments… Since I have not seen this letter on any of the other boards, namely the arab boards that I lurk on, I have to wonder why you came here – because what was written here was nothing compared to the things said on those boards. It would seem to me that you felt the non arab world was judging you unfairly. But you chose not to respond to those within your industry who were making even uglier accusations about you and your horse. An interesting observation.
Those people making comments here are potential customers – the Arab industry is hurting badly, the financials and breedings are indicative of it. And while you say the number is few, remember that thousands lurk here. Cathy has a significant following, across all breeds. This is clearly a business you are invested in, otherwise you would not be putting Scala back on the circuit, regardless of trainer. Its a business you love, but a business none the less. An interesting point to the fact that you have not objected publically on the other Arab industry boards ot the things being said.
RE:The ambulance. As an AHA member who has shown sucessfully at scottsdale and across the US, I can say that this is the final straw for me. It upsets me enough that they flaunt the AHA halter rules that were designed to protect horses and leel the playing field. IT upsets me that the show fees are higher than nationals. But to find out I could have come off in an undersaddle class and there were no abulances on site – (USEF requires at leasrt one EMT. Where was this person?)… thats the end for me. Scottsdale likes to brag that they are bigger than nationls, but don’t feel it necessary to have an ambulance on site for the show? That’s a pidly cost considering the fees. WTFE.
Gary – thankyou for responding here. I know you will not comment further, and I respect that. But I have a hard time respecting anyone who takes a horse that they love and continues to show it in a system that is inhumane and rewards abusive trainers. But that’s why I don’t show halter
. Congrads on finding someone who will not abuse your horse – but I would tell everyone look at the photos from Scottsdale, look at the halter classes at an Arab show – most of those are horses white eyed with fear. And you contribute to that culture, regardless of how your horse is being treated. As an owner, and more importantly as an investor and a salesman, I hold you ultimately responsible for the perpetuation of inhumane halter standards. , more so than the trainers. BEcause you, my friend are the money. And your money is talking.
No reply necessary. This debate goes far and wide on the arab boards, so what I am saying here is just a summary. But do not assume those of us on a non-arab board are ignorant or unfair – we’re very well aware of the matters at hand. Your side of the story and the decsion to show were truly the only things in question.
In all fairness, I have a horse I love and he is going to be showing in a system that rewards abusive trainers. If we don’t storm the gates with humanely-trained horses and beat the pants off the abused ones, we will NEVER change a thing. Boycotting isn’t the answer, IMO.
I vote with my wallet, and send my horse to a humane trainer. Gary seems to be doing the same as he now has his horses with Matthew, who has a good reputation. That’s progress. Bet we’ll see more and more of it.
Has anyone heard of how Cape Town’s offspring are away from the track? I own a gelding by him.
I am speechless at the fact that anyone, I do not care who you are or how rich you are, should allow their animal to be in a situation that they knew it would hate.
Why would you send him to a trainer that you knew would keep him in a situation he was going to loathe when he was only going to be breeding mares the next year?
Sorry, it does not add up.
None of it does.
I have handled Arabs all my life, stallions, mares, geldings.
I have never, ever had a horse that would attack me in the ring.
Never.
This is beyond ludicrous.
“He wasn’t ready”?
You think???????
He wasn’t ready to be out of the field.
Honestly, I would have thought that someone who had as much money invested in an enterprise as you do would have actually attended to that animals welfare, so that this could have been, totally, avoided.
It is not rocket science, you know.
Now, as it is, you have brought the whole Arab world into disrepute, not that it was not headed that way, by all accounts, anyway.
It’s the whole “Big Lick” thing, all over again, ad nauseam.
If it takes that sort of abuse to win, you need to start looking at why you are winning, and whether you actually want to go to these extremes in order to do so.
And before you trot off thinking “what do they know, who are they anyway” let me tell you who we are.
We are the people that go to horse shows to watch, the audience, most of the time.
We are the people that vote with our feet, and leave.
If you want to have a show that has NO audience, as some do, the Mini shows, for instance. where the only spectators are the competitors, keep on the way you are.
Oh, and, just sometimes, we are the people just above you in the line up!