Choo! Choo! Here it comes!
Jan 24 2010
In reading Craigslist, I frequently come across ads that I can pretty much guarantee show the signs of a mess coming down the road that some rescuer, um, kind person, um, sucker will have to clean up (or the kill buyer will). Â Witness this ad from Seattle Craigslist:
DO YOU HAVE AN EMPTY PASTURE? – $75
Hello, My name is Elisha but I go by Ellie. I am in need of a horse boarding facility for my mare Holiday. I need it by mid Feb. I recently got her back after a 3 and a half years of not knowing where she was. She is an 8 year old Quarter horse cross 14.3HH solid black. I just need somewhere to keep her where she can graze all day. I will do the feeding and clean up after her. We can only afford up too $100.00/month to make sure that we can buy hay and grain as well as have the Farrier out when needed. She is a VERY easy keeper and gets along with most horses once they have astablished who’s boss. If you have a pasture that is empty and you just want a lawn mower then please let me know. I do not have a lisence but I do have a truck. I am working on getting my lisence and we are looking for a horse trailer. So please let me know if you have room. All I want is a self-care place to keep her where I can ride once I am able too. I am a stay at home mother of one and one on the way. I am due june first 2010 and we are intending on breeding her to CPR Cuttin Color in June or July of this year.
Once again all I need is somewhere to keep her where she can graze all day. She only get’s two flake’s of hay/day and a cup of grain and she gets fat off of that.
Please be somewhere close to Spanaway/Parkland/Tacoma area’s
I am very desperate!!
PLEASE HELP US OUT!!
thank you
Ellie
Ellie, I’m sure you’re very young, so I really am going to try not to bash the living hell out of you here, BUT…- you can only afford $100 a month to make sure you still have money for farrier, etc.
– you already have a human baby and another on the way. Â Ask any parent, that is likely to create additional expenses you did not anticipate!
– you do not have transportation. Â I have lived in Pierce County, there is most likely no bus that is going to take you out to see your mare.
– AND YOU WANT TO BREED YOUR MARE?
This is the time when I hope Ellie has some IRL friends who can give her a more tactful reality check than I can. Â Ellie, you are young, you are poor, you have some real hurdles to accomplish in life already. Â You are about to have 2 kids, you don’t have a driver’s license, and you do not have a job. Â Even more frightening, when I google your phone numbers, they match ads from a guy who is also looking for a job, so I suspect he’s your husband or boyfriend and neither one of you is employed. Â While I imagine you took back this mare in order to keep her from going someplace bad, you honestly aren’t in a situation to prevent her home with you from turning into someplace bad, despite your good intentions.
And you want to breed her this spring? Â WHY? Â She is a grade mare. Â She is probably a lovely little riding horse. Â Let her be. Â She doesn’t need to make more of herself, and you can’t afford the bills. What if she prolapses? Â Tears? Â What if the baby is born needing surgery? Â If you can’t afford board on one horse, how are you going to afford board on two? Â Breeding them results in a second horse, you know…a horse that will need 2x the board (which you already admit you can’t afford), 2x the farrier, 2x the vet, and so on. Â Now, I haven’t seen you ride, either, but I’m guessing that 2 toddlers and no transportation is going to cut severely into your ability to get out there and train that foal appropriately to his age. Â For the love of common sense, abandon your breeding plans (or can I at least hope that the folks at Circle P Ranch have got better sense than to breed your mare).
Folks, this is how the problem is created. Â People look at this and say, well, at least it’s only one foal, not a hundred. Â But if you don’t think there are 100 more, hell, a million more Ellie’s out there, you need to spend more time perusing Myspace and Craigslist. Â This country is full of people who want to breed horses even though they don’t even come close to having the resources or knowledge to do so, and then they will blame the economy when the foals don’t sell. Â If you built an ugly car that gets 3 mpg, are you gonna blame the economy too, when that doesn’t sell? Â That is what people like Ellie are doing, and somehow no one in their real lives is able to get that fact across to them.
So here is an interesting question – as a stallion owner, have you ever refused to breed mares from a  situation that seems unstable or unsafe from what the person is telling you or from common knowledge?  When I say common knowledge, I mean — look at Tania Herring — EVERYBODY knew that was a train wreck.  You should see the e-mails I’m getting on top of what has been publicly posted.  Have you said no because you feared the resulting foal wouldn’t receive proper care?
That leads me to yet another question, and I’m not sure what the law would say about it. Â If I offer a stallion up for stud, am I legally constrained in any way from deciding who I will or will not sell his sperm to? Â This is a really fascinating topic to me. I’ve heard of people threatening to sue when someone wouldn’t sell them a horse because it might be a bad home, but I’ve never heard of anyone following through – but I’m sure it’s happened. Â What about breedings? Â I’d love to hear any stories, and how they turned out!
115 comments to “Choo! Choo! Here it comes!”
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Absolutely true. you said what needed to be said, what a lot of folks are thinking..Hopefully, someone will set this woman straight. I wouldn’t bet on it, though..
I would be hesitant to ever offer a stud to public mares. The real question is what is the stud owner after? Money or improving a breed? Though it appears CPR Cuttin Color has been shown and taken care of at least. There is that dreaded word homozygous.
I have been breeding horses for over forty years.
In that time I have come across such a small number of people who breed that are actually attempting, obviously, to improve the breed (whichever breed it is) that I could count them on the fingers of one hand.
And I am already counting myself and my O/H in there, btw.
The vast majority of people that I have talked to over the years have absolutely NO clue, whatsoever, as to what they are breeding or why.
They are just, all of them, totally sure that their stallion is the best in the world and therefore, going to vastly improve anything and everything he is bred to.
Happily, and coincidentally, a few of them are right, but I do not count them as it is pure luck.
Very, very rarely have I heard people talking about gelding a colt that is a pretty colour and really not half bad because he did not come up to their standards.
The norm would be that, merely because they had bred it , it would, automatically and irrespective of colour/pattern, be a “very nice little stallion for someone” or, worse still IMO, a “good starter stallion”
What the hell does that mean, anyway?
Most people are fueled by the thought of making money, and even just downright greed.
These people have no problem with lying and spewing hype in order to sell their second rate animals for top dollar.
They are also not above “fixing” shows wherever they can in order to get show wins to their names.
Happily this is actually more difficult than you would think to do, but is still, as we all know, possible.
I am actually OK with someone wanting to make money, I think we all do, although most of us know it is not really possible.
I just have a problem with the people that breeze into a breed that you (or I) have been in for donkeys years and assume that you (or I) are not making money because we are morons, and that all you have to do is….well, it is always whatever they are doing, and it is usually, IMO at least, only border line honest!!
Once they have gone broke, leaving a trainwreck of substandard animals all over the shop, it is us, the morons, who are left to pick up the pieces, and then attempt to dispel all the bad feeling that these people have caused with their selling methods, their hype and their second rate horses.
Who, me, bitter????
I wish there was a big, heavy piece of wood that was legal to hit people over the head with, that says, “if you are poor)or even comfortable) and want to be rich, say far, far away from horses.”
IMO the quality mare owners will seek out the right stud. For example, ie if I had a stud, I would want mare owners to inquire at a show about him vs. a pretty stallion ad. I hope that makes sense.
This kind of relates to today’s post from TB friends, where he had to take in horses from failed rescues, 4 of which died on his lawn. How tragic- this has been a terrible winter for horses in California. Please please please don’t make any more. By the way, I can’t imagine a better person than Joe- his kindness and decency just shine through
I just hope someone will pick up the slack when Joe can’t do it anymore in that area…he always talks about being old, not sure how old he actually is, but he might be getting to that point where 400 TB’s at year is too much.
The other day he said he was 58.
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400 a year sounds like too much for anyone ……
That man is a saint! I marvel at his ability to remain hopeful while constantly witnessing the things he does. It makes me very happy that horses have someone like Joe looking out for them.
He does just as much to educate people, and he will never be too old to do that—today he wielded a clue bat over 3 well-meaning teens, showed them that rescue has more to do with sucking up the heartbreak than with having a big heart.
I know that some stallion ads indicate that the mare has to be approved. It might be better if they posted their criteria — not sure, I guess anything could be argued (“she is so!” “she is not!”).
If a mare of mine were rejected I would want to know why — if it is lack of show credentials, so be it, and while it’s “shame on me” it could be remedied. If it is their assessment of her conformation, I’d want to know in case I am barn-blind (or need to take better pictures)! If it’s that my mare is grade — well, it’s unlikely to be me in that situation, but again, understandable.
But I totally believe it is the stallion owner’s RIGHT (and dare I say DUTY) to choose the mares to which he is bred. I can’t imagine it being lawsuit fodder but then again, I would never have thought that getting burned with hot coffee was lawsuit fodder either.
I’m no expert, but I would imagine that as a stallion owner, you have the perfect right to refuse service to anyone. ANYONE selling a service to the public has the right to refuse to sell it to anyone they choose. There is no reason why this would be any different than a restaurant being able to refuse service to a rude or drunk customer. Also, as an almost-graduated law student, I can tell you that a mare owner would have no legitimate legal complaint in such a situation (provided, of course, that the stallion owner had NOT signed a contract and then refused service).
The owner can refuse to have the stallion service any mare s/he chooses, unless the facility is subject to federal civil rights acts (e.g., ADEA, Title VII, etc.) or state civil rights acts, and the refusal is based on invidious discrimination (e.g., refusal of service because of the mare owner’s race).
An advertisement is ordinarily not construed as an “offer” in contract terms such that the owner is bound if someone “accepts” the offer. However, it is a good idea for a stallion owner to make it clear in the advertising material that the mares must be approved, or otherwise to indicate that the mare owner phoning up and stating “I accept” does not bind the stallion owner.
I can only imagine the circumstances where someone would feel he has the grounds to sue over the refusal to service a particular mare. Possibly it was couched as a defamation or slander action, or a business tort (e.g., “intentional interference with business expectation”), but that would require more than just a simple refusal to enter into a contract, in order to successfully pursue such claims.
Hope this helps.
I agree that this girl needs a wake up call….. I have three children (two of them are twins) And diapers alone is a huge part of our budget. Currently I do not own horses as we looked through our budget and realized it would be a tight fit and we wouldn’t have any extra cash in case something happens. No matter how much I wanted to, I know that it wouldn’t be a smart idea.
Even if we had decided to I have access to two trucks and two trailers, a boarding facility that will only charge me $50 a month in the summer (I work for the owner helping her train horses) for the feed and $100 in the winter. I also have a drivers licence AND my husband works full time. We have a budget that we stick to and try to be smart with our money.
I guess sometimes I get irked when people like Elli give people that are younger a bad rap. I am young, married and have children. My husband and I try our hardest to make it so that our kids have everything they need (and some that they want), they are fed, diapered and taken care of. We have two dogs that are also spoiled rotten and we make sure we have enough for them too.
If you cant afford the kid you have (and the one thats not here yet) Please sell the horse and wait until you are a little more financially stable (I dont mean making 80,000 a year I mean making enough to pay rent, all your bills, buy what you need, put some in savings AND have money left over)
I know exactly where you are coming from. My husband and I got in way to deep financially and we sold or gave away all our horses to good homes. Now I am pregnant and we have a mentally disabled older son and a small dog. We decided that at this time we don’t think we can properly afford to own another large dog without skimping somewhere else due to the additional costs. We live on acreage and I have a couple acre fenced pasture just outside my window and I have still have a sizable hay credit of alfafa/clover mix with a friend from last years take off our farm we lost but we still feel we can’t afford a horse at this time. I am the more motivated horsey member of the family so right now my plan at this point is to go back to work after the baby is a few months old then budget in lessons to better my horsemanship while I can’t afford to own a horse. I have decided if I get to where I can consistatly afford weekly lessons then I will move to a half lease and so forth. Around here it is easy to get nice horses free or next to free but unfortunately I have learned the hard way that the purchase price of the horse has nothing to do with the cost do keep and own it. In fact I have a feeling with the exception of show fees and show tack a more expensive horse usually ends up being the cheaper horse. Cheap horses are cheap for a reason……my experiences have been ulcers and really high strung to start with, severe neglect, old and lame, repeat bowed tendon, CRAZY (he was drugged), totally untrained, and only bucks you off every other day. Hopefully when by the time that I can have a horse again my home will be a much better home for a horse both for the horse and my family. In the meantime hanging out here, reading books and playing howrse helps a little
Everybody! Lookit! A responsible owner! This is what it looks like!
Good for you.
Yes, Thank You!
And your kids, dogs, husband, horse you are riding and horses you will have in the future thank you too.
Can someone email the stallion owner and let them know that she has no money and the horse is grade and ask them if that is an issue?
I think stallion owners should be picky on what they breed to…why the hell would you want crap mares producing mediocre to crap foals?? and that be a representation of your stallion…its honestly bad business and bad for the horses…
I’m seventeen and my first horse was nine months old when I first got him. He’s a now twenty-month old stallion that will be gelded in February, however when I was in the process of moving him from our boarding stable to my house a woman approached me asking if I would be willing to breed my dun QH to her mare. I’ve known this woman to a) not have enough money to pay board, b) try to convince me to let her train my horse(which I’ve sought out professional instead of hers) and c) get into numerous of problems with the barn owner over stupid situations that could have been dealt easily with, with common sense. So, I told her no but I was flattered by the offer and also stating that my horse is not stallion material and I was NOT comfortable breeding more horses like that.
Not really sure if that counts, but thats my story.
Good for you, hopefully you made her think, even if only for a fleeting moment.
In Kentucky in the TB world they will not breed GOOD stallions to mares that aren’t well bred stakes winners. I myself wouldn’t breed a grade mare under any circumstances because when you do you bring down the value of your own stallion.
Grade horses that are well built last longer then registered horses that aren’t. A case in point. My Quarter horse gelding is twenty two and roars, has had hoof problems from previous owners overfeeding, is ewe necked, sickle hocked, roach backed but does have a nice butt. My grade 1/2 tb, 1/4 arab, 1/4 pony mare who was 15’2″ fully grown was sound til she died at 24 of post partum colic. She was beautifully built and evented, did dressage and competed in hunters from the age of 5 until age 23. Her half arab pony cross dam was a registered half arab and lived to age 35. She foxhunted until she was 30 or so. Papers don’t jump fences and neither does a pretty color.
We have sent mare owners away for financial reasons once or twice. I feel that selling a breeding is the same as selling a horse and therefor have the same requirements I would have if I were selling a horse outright. I want the mare owner to have a plan for the foal’s future and the means of putting that plan in to action, not just a desire to make a tiny replica of his or her mare. What discipline does the mare owner intend this foal to pursue? Does the MO have a trainer in mind to make these goals possible? As a stallion owner, the best way to ensure you only select the mares and mare owners that make the best home, is to advertise a limited book for selected mares. This gives you some recourse, and yes, we have turned poor quality mares away on a number of occasions. Owners aren’t always happy about it, but there isn’t much they can do about it if your ads specifically state “Approved mares only”.
In my opinion, selling a breeding IS selling a horse and should be treated as such.
God bless Joe Shelton at TB friends..that man is amazing! His blog this morning was so sad but he always just tries to focus on the horses and keep moving forward.
Although he always comments about being old, I believe he has posted that he is in his mid to late 50′s if I remember correctly. I also remember him stating that he does have a long term financial plan in place to care for his horses should the unthinkable happen to him. But I somehow doubt anyone could fill that void that would be left if he were unable to rescue in the future.
Im a long time reader, first time poster and I really enjoy this blog. As a late forty-something soon to be re-rider who hasnt owned horses since my teens, I am getting a great refresher course here and learning lots of new things too.
Thanks fugly!!
No one in this world could fill the void if, God forbid, something happened to Joe. But he’s a strong 58–and hell, that’s not old! Joe and his wife have many friends in their area and around the world, and you can bet that 30 years from now, when he feels himself starting to slow down, he’ll have developed some heirs to take over his mission.
Fugs,
Elaine Hall was legendary for being discriminating in the selection of mares for Peptoboonsmal when she owned him. She accepted and reviewed applications at a specific date and sent response letters to applicants. of course, as a leading sire, with commensurate stud fee, his book was more limited. none the les, I am unaware she was ever litigated or suffered any undue consequences from her refusals.
‘How Bad For The Environment Can Throwing Away One Plastic Bottle Be?’ 30 Million People Wonder
I really wish I could talk to Ellie, although why she would take advice from me I don’t know but I have three children ages 4, 3 and 15 months. I KNOW what she is about to get into and it will not be fun for anyone. I am also a stay at home Mom, however, I have a husband who is very supportive and I also worked from the time I was 16 up until our first child was born when I was 29 so money, while sometimes tight and we have to stay on a very strict budget, is not really TOO much of an issue. People often say to me things like; “oh you are so lucky, you have time to do whatever you want.” WRONG! Having children is a full time job and more. They aren’t like having a dog or a cat that you can leave for a few hours a day, they are an extension of you, literally, they have to come wherever you go because I know for sure that if she can only afford $100/month for board there is no way in hell she can afford a sitter. (One of the reasons I don’t work is b/c a full time job would only barely cover the cost of daycare.) Maybe she is lucky to have family around or a friend who can occasionally do some sitting but still the reality of it is when you are a Mom of young children you don’t get a lot of free time. I have one horse (well two actually, but one lives on the other side of the States from me in retirement) and I feel lucky to get to see him three or four times a week, but she wants to be on self-care? Having the farrier or vet out is always a challenge because as most horse people know you are on their time so if they are running a little late you sit at the barn and wait for them. That can be challenging with little ones running around. If you do bring the kids to the barn then your mind is constantly divided between them and your horse and really it is just an accident waiting to happen. I try to avoid bringing my kids with me at all costs unless I’m bringing them out specifically to let them see the horses, then it is about them and they get my full focus.
This isn’t even touching on the financial issue, either. Children and horses both have a way of costing more money than you expect. In order to be a responsible horse owner (and parent, really) you need to have some kind of reserve or savings that you can tap into for emergencies. We don’t really like to hear things like that as a society. We all seem to be under the impression that we just deserve whatever it is we want that makes us happy. Who cares if you can really afford it or not you can always just charge it and hope the money comes later. But isn’t that how our economy got into the crap hole in the first place? It took my husband and I a lot of hard years to figure this out. We were in debt over our heads about seven or so years ago and we had to make some drastic, hard choices just to get to the place where we can tread water comfortably. It would have been so much easier and less painful if we had just waited to buy the things we wanted until we actually had the money.
If someone does know her maybe they could even just suggest getting some financial counseling. I know that can be really eye opening.
Asharri, that was a great post. I NEVER think that a SAHM is anything less than a full time job (of course, assuming you are doing it RIGHT!) It is hugely time consuming and expensive. I figured out pretty early what motherhood entailed and I chose to opt out – I’d never have the patience for it, and I know that.
Yes, good for you that you got financial counseling and it helped you make a realistic budget and stick to it so your kids and animals are cared for–even if you have to forego extras for now–with enough financial discipline left over to care for a horse properly, even if you can’t find time to ride him more than occasionally. I admire you, and so will your kids in the future.
What’s REALLY depressing is on that same page (and she initially wants to only pay 75!) there is an add for a full care baording barn in Grahm for ONLY 250$ a month – in the add it says
“INCLUDED IN THE PRICE IS:
FED 2X DAY ALFALFA AND OR GOOD GRASS HAY, YOUR CHOICE
I WILL FEED ANY OWNER SUPPLIED GRAIN, VITAMINS, ETC.
I WILL TAKE BLANKETS AND FLY MASKS ON AND OFF
REGULAR PASTE WORMING
SALT BLOCKS
FRESH, CLEAN WATER (IF I WOULDN’T DRINK IT, I DON’T EXPECT THE HORSES TO)
HITCHING POSTS
66 FT. OUTDOOR LIGHTED ROUNDPEN
LOCKERS FOR TACK
EACH PASTURE LEADS TO A WALKWAY SO YOU DON’T HAVE TO GO THROUGH OTHER HORSES TO GET YOURS OUT
NO STALLIONS, DRAFTS, OR TROUBLE HORSES, ALL HORSES MUST BE CURRENT ON SHOTS AND WORMING
WE HAVE 2 PASTURES W/ SHELTERS OPEN RIGHT NOW!”
Dear god, if I were in the position to horse shop right now, I’d be ALL OVER this…
But sadly, we have people like our OP who, even though they are smart enough to actually remember that farrier care and food are also an essential part of horse ownership, they still have NO FLIPPING CLUE….
Oh I pity that girl!She has not a clue….I think I easily spend more on my horses than food for my family!And she wont even have the time w/ lil kids or lic/vehicle????Someone please wake her up!!!!!
PS – they also have pictures (All hot tape, with capped posts) fat and sassy horses, clean pastures, and offer references. Anyone wanna slip me a couple hundred and a care lease? *laughs*
That Ad has been running almost daily for 2 years. You’ve got to ask yourself why.
Ugh, no. I’ve heard a few things about that barn.
Cathy you had posted once many months ago about some working quarter horse breeders who posted their requirements for outside broodmares on their website. It was OUTSTANDING! I applaude them truly.
I love these beautiful words “Private Treaty”. I have bred my fabulously bred warmblood mare to an imported (Grand Prix dressage) stallion who is down in the states. I had quite a bit of information to provide, copy of papers, photos of her and her previous offspring, video of her movement, etc before his owner would sign a breeding contract with me. I have a LOT of respect for her. She’s as picky about what she breeds to as I am.
Cheers to having standards!
Fugly, did you email the girl and offer some friendly advice?
I have a policy that I never e-mail any subject of a blog unless they e-mail me first.
1. The response if you DO helpfully email these people (like I used to do before I started the blog) is usually along the lines of, “eff you c***, mind your own f’ing business.” So it’s pointless. Even if you’re SUPER polite, you usually get this response.
2. I have been impersonated so much at this point (people e-mail nasty stuff to people with classified ads and sign my email to it instead of their own) that it is easier to have a flat out policy that I don’t do it. Therefore, if you get an e-mail that says “why are you breeding that thing?” it’s DEFINITELY not me, because I do not do that. Ever.
Now, if they e-mail me, I may respond or I may post their e-mail if it’s particularly entertaining.
its a shame people are so unwilling to take advice. Maybe someone will helpfully point her in the blog’s direction.
Totally agree, Fugs. I love designer handbags. But do I need them? Heck no! I own four horses so manging my money is a priority, especially in this economy. I don’t mind living conservatively so that my horse can be well taken care of & that I can have a little extra saved for any horsey emergencies.
If I were on a fixed, low-income budge I would definately be reconsidering owning a horse. The money Momma Ellie would be spending on her horse could easily be going towards her child(ren).
Also, I can’t even remember when I only spent $100 a month on my horses!! *Scratches head* Here’s hopin she doesn’t end up breeding her little mare!
Did you know you can rent designer clothes and accessories for a tenth of the price? Google “rent designer”, there are lots of websites like that. Have the horses and the handbags
! I wish they had that for show clothes and tack…
I have been a lurker for awhile and I enjoy the site even though I am extremely ignorant about horses (have learned a ton though, thank you!) but there was a part of the ad that made me laugh so hard that I couldn’t resist posting.
“I am due june first 2010 and we are intending on breeding her to CPR Cuttin Color in June or July of this year.”
So did anyone read this as an announcement that after giving birth to a human girl that they were going to turn around and breed the infant to a horse? Wow, that’s some screwed up sentence structure or way screwed up family values! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I was thinking along the same lines.
I am a writer by profession so this kind of thing drives me nuts. Sadly there is plenty to be found on Craigslist.
LOL! I caught that, but what I got out of it was after her human baby was born she was going to breed herself to the stallion in her next heat cycle, for a fugly /human foal! Sicko, so sorry…
To me a good beeder would be selective to who they are breeding their stallion(s) to. Especially if they are showing them and earning points. I would think they would want the offspring to be doing those things as well. I think the quality of the offspring should be just as important. Quality menaing conformation problems that can be passed on,hereditary health problems, what the owners palns are. Are they breeding their mare to make a quick buck on the baby that is not even going to recieve any kind of training? Thats another thing; what there plans are ,how they are going to be accomplishing their goals. Who they use as trainers(then you can look for refences even). Who they use for a vet and farrier(that way you can check up making sure they are reg. clients and keep UTD on things). I think how the foal starts out in life, and ends up in life is going to be linked to the breeders stallion. That is a reflection on the stallion owner, the farm etc. I would think I would have a check list of things to ask. Based on that information would be my answer if they get to have the seman or not. I think checking up on the foal as well should be ok with most people. You would want to keep in contact to know about the progress of the foal.
Oh the lady that is haveing another child and can only pay $100 a month for board, is not going to cut the mustard. You are basically raping a barn owner for that price! Thats rediculous to be asking. no one is going to have board for that price.Cheap rough board is like $300. Does she even have a job? Probably not if she doesn’t have transportation. I think she should worry about finding work and taking care of her kids. Sometimes priorites(like your kids) do have to come first. I have 2 horses at home and a teenage son,a trailer,truck my horses are up to date on everything(teeth,vets,and farrier), and I work a full time job, bills are paid. (I dont even recieve child support for my kid because father is on workmans comp for very serious injuries. And i have to support him fully myself and pay for health ins. as well) I have no idea how she is going to take care of her horses never mind having a foal and 2 young kids. You cant be in 2 places at once. You definatley cant be bringing babies out in an open field with a young horse running around. Not just financial matters but physically you have to be there a lot for very young kids. They dont stay in one spot.
Holy cow where do you live? Expensive full care where I live (NW Ohio) is $250+ a month. Cheap rough care can be had for $125-175 a month, and cheap full care is $175+ (although you end up getting what you pay for in my experience).
I put an ad on Craigslist looking for self care in my area and it worked out great. BUT I’m older than her, have one child old enough to ride and no intentions of having any more, and I have transportation. My ad decribed how I was sick of the full care barns not taking proper care of my horse, and that I have many years of experience with horses and insist on my stall being clean at all times, water being clean, farrier on a regular schedule, etc. I also didn’t name a price, but said that the amount of rent I was willing to pay would depend on the place.
I received a reply in less than 10 minutes, that happened to be from 5 miles away. I now clean 4 stalls every day, and keep an eye on the horses, and get free board for my gelding. I buy my hay and feed, he supplies the bedding, and we both have never been happier. I go to the barn twice a day to check on my horse, put his blanket on or off, turnout or bring in, whatever.
But the main difference between her posting and mine is that mine was done is proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation, and conveyed that I am a responsible adult.
I live in NE Ohio, just five minutes from Akron, Oh. Pasture board, which most barns around here don’t offer in the winter because of weather, costs about $150 – $200 depending on facility. Part care board (everything but stall cleaning) is about $250 – $300. Full care board at a decent place around here is $400+++. Honestly, she should just get rid of her horses and stay out of horses if she doesn’t have enough common sense that you usually can’t afford kids & horses without a driver’s license. Doesn’t anybody else get the feeling that she’s a high – school dropout teenage mom?
Well, I got lucky and found a place, 3 acres and a couple of run-ins for $25 a horse…they just wanted some horses on the land.. I did everything else, hay, taking care of the place, etc…it was a great place…
Now, to Ellie…what part of, the cheapest thing about owning a horse is buying, hasn’t she figured out?
You were gentler than the norm when you wrote her up….hope she sees the light…
I’ve been a follower of this blog for a while, and Fugly, my compliments on running a very informative blog and exposing any number of deadbeats, villains, and ignorant horsepeople!
In any case, I am currently studying law and have just started in on similar cases in Property Law. Now, based on what I’ve read so far, I believe that if a person approaches you about breeding to your stallion, you have the right to refuse permission for the breeding, since the stallion is your private property. You are under no obligation to allow anyone (short of the government – and even then only in certain situations, say, if it felt that your stallion’s service would somehow contribute to the public good, lol) to force you to grant breeding rights to their mare.
However, if you have already made a breeding contract with the owner of the mare, you may be in a bit of a bind and whether or not you would be able to get out of it would be dependant on the provisions of the contract. Hope that helps!
Well, in first year contracts, the rule we were taught about advertisements basically that they weren’t actually offers, they were more like offers for offers. Basically, an ad is saying, “You come to us and THEN we’ll work out a deal.” That’s a general statement of common law, which in real life is different from state to state and also modified by statutes, so your mileage may vary (not that I have to tell Fugs that- I’m including explanations for the readers playing along at home).
If you turned down selling the horse or standing the stallion for one of the cardinal Bad Reasons (like race, gender, religion or national origin) or you decided to make the person go away by significantly raising the advertised price or attaching unreasonable conditions, you’d probably run afoul of other consumer protection laws. Also, if you agreed to a sale and then later ‘got a bad feeling’ there’d be a more interesting legal question.
You could also argue that the horse going to a place where he won’t be starved to death, kicked to death, or killed by a deathtrap pasture is implied in a sale offer. The same goes for stallions- not standing for mares or herds that would be a detriment to his reputation seems like a pretty common-sense condition.
Even if there was a breach- if we’re talking a general common law contract, and no other statutes have been violated, damages for breach of contract are very limited- if no money’s changed hands, I doubt there’d ever be enough damages to make it worth the trouble. And if there’s an actual question of whether or not the horse would be cared for if sold, or if the mare is not of good quality (and would therefore damage the stallion’s reputation by putting fugly offspring on the ground), no judge in his right mind is going to grant specific performance (forcing you to sell the horse or stand the stallion).
That sort of threat is probably best handled by the Fugly Legal Plan… those sort of people probably don’t have a case, and actually engaging them to argue will only get them thinking of counter-arguments, which will then convince them that they could win in court.
Side note- I think collecting reader’s favorite drink recipes and publishing it under the title The Fugly Legal Plan (like they do for church cookbooks) would be an excellent fundraiser for someone’s rescue. I’d buy a copy, and I just finished tweaking a recipe for cosmopolitans.
Wow… I attempted to make that conversational and ended up with staggeringly bad grammar. That wall of text boils down to no, you probably can’t be sued for refusing to sell a horse or turning down a sale. Even if they could make a cause of action, the damages would be close to nill.
Not that anyone really needed the first year contracts explanation- it sounds like sellers and stallion owners turn down people all the time. If that’s industry practice, the people who didn’t make the cut really don’t have a leg to stand on.
What I got out of it, is before any money changes hands, the stallion owner has the right to refuse any mare. Most stallion owners go by “live foal guarantee” and the stud fee deposit is refundable until there is a live foal who stands and nurses. So, apart from the daily mare care fees,if you as a stallion owner have accepted the mare to be there, there are no guarantees.
Except those cosmopolitans.
Well, even after money changes hands, if the mare owner oversold her mare’s quality, there’s a contract doctrine called material misrepresentation that would allow rescission of the contract (calling the whole thing off). In this case, material means significant. I don’t know enough about the breeding industry to know what is material and what isn’t, but I’m pretty sure that if a mare owner convinces you that she’s got a cracker-jack sport horse program and shows up with a Appadraftawalkergon fugly you’d still be okay sending her home.
Stopping a sale on a ‘bad feeling’ is a little more difficult to defend. It would depend on what you could prove about industry practice, but I think if you have something semi-solid to back it up, you’ll get a little more leeway because we are talking about a live animal whose future you care about.
Then again, it’s a little like discussing defamation- it’s all theory because while people threaten to sue all the time, no one ever goes through with it! I think if anyone actually got to a lawyer, they got a very uncomfortable description of exactly what the defense’s discovery looks like and suddenly found something else to be mad about.
I am a stallion owner who has turned down mares. I only breed 1-4 mares a year, including mine and outside mares, and do limited or no advertising. I also note “approved mares only” although that is pretty generic. I feel it puts a question mark in the mare owner’s mind and sets them up to hear, “No.”
The first mare I turned down was being talked up by her owners and sounded good. Nice pedigree and they were going on about how sweet she was. I finally figured out that she was a mare that had been bred to a stud my mom owned several years before. The mare wasn’t sweet, she was a WITCH! And they hadn’t even started the resulting colt she’d had! I kindly declined breeding her as I didn’t think my stallion would sire color bred to her. I know, cheesy excuse, but they definitely wanted color and I consider color (Appaloosa) to be the frosting on the cake, not the reason to breed! The other mare I declined was a fine mare but I knew her owner would do nothing with the foal. The unstarted youngster she produced a few years back lounging in the pasture with her was enough proof of that.
It’s tough to tell people you don’t want to breed their mare. When I do advertise, I put a “too high” stud fee out there but note a discount to proven mares. If someone really has a nice mare and calls me, we can talk “discount” for performance points, etc. I’m not sure where the monetary line is but I know people who stand their studs for under $500 and they get to put up with all of the crazy calls! Of course, there are people who spend thousands on stud fees and still let the foals rot (or starve) out in the pasture.
I’ve only offered my stallion for stud one year, when he was four and I had an arabian breeder encouraging me to offer him as she felt he was a nice example of the breed. I had one person contact me from the east coast who sounded as if she had a lovely mare, but I was not prepared to try collecting him yet. After getting a bit more educated regarding breeding and collecting for AI, I decided to take him off the market as there were a lot of horses out there standing that hadn’t yet been proven as riding horses. I didn’t want my stallion (or me!) lumped into the ‘he breeds because I think he’s nice and he’s got the equipment so why not’ group. I got him started with the help of a friend, then after straightening out some financial and farrier issues, he’s now off to training with a proven professional that boasts an excellent show record herself, along with several students who have made it to various National and World events under her guidance and teaching.
In the intervening years, I have turned away a few people; I was offered a breeding lease on a lovely mare, who was the producer of 5 National Champions, but she was older and the Vet work required to breed her successfully was going to be more than I cared to invest. Anyhow, twice I refused because I simply didn’t want the hassle of other horses on my property and in my responsibility, and once because the mare was, in my mind, not worth breeding. She had nice disposition…but was long backed with a blocky head and just not attractive. Since my boy only has one foal on the ground, I didn’t want his second to make people cringe. He had great conformation, but one gnarly looking foal can make people back away regardless of how good the sire himself is.
Everybody was nice about being turned away. I felt no need to upset the person that had the unattractive mare by telling them I thought the mare was unattractive; I explained my boy wasn’t going to be a good fit for her, and recommended she look within the mare’s breed.
However, I am in the process of a total site redesign, and have added “The owners and operators reserve the right to refuse service or sales to any one for any reason” to the bottom of each page. At least that way it’s in plain sight from the get-go!
I guess I can understand how this young girl wishes with the best intentions to have her horse. Perhaps it would be a better idea for her to market a home for her with someone who can provide and care for her yet allow this girl to visit and learn.
There were times (and still have these moments) when I stood back and wondered what the hell was I thinking but I made things work. I knew what I wanted. I never kept my horses at a boarding stable, by choice as I hate barn drama and don’t mingle well with a lot of folks. But I did not have the ideal place at my house either. But I made something work. As my children grew, they learned to help me with my horsey chores and I think were all the better people because of it. They learned to join in the fun and learned how to ride and show and become savvy. Now that my kids are adults, they have become great farm sitters when needed. They are the epitome of youngsters made well rounded because of horses. ( that was for a previous post you had). But I would say that not every woman has that telepathy. I consider myself quite grounded (at times).
I bought my first horse (as an adult) while 9 months pregnant with my second child. I was a stay @ home mom, also. I was in my later 20′s at the time. That was 20 years ago. It was fortunate that I had a supportive and cooperative husband and we worked together so that we could have our “toys”. Our kids learned how we make sacrifices or work extra to have the things we want. Not everyone has the perception of reality as I did
With that said, Miss Ellie really doesn’t know what she is about to get herself in to. I at least had the financial resources and human support that made my desires to work for what I want work for me. I was also aware of the whole picture of horse keeping…something this girl doesn’t seem to have a clue.
Now for some local CL nit-picking:
http://richmond.craigslist.org/grd/1563229415.html
I know this is the very thing that just fires you up, Fugs. And I share your woe. I thought about inquiring about the papers for this “stud” and his accomplishments. But I know I will undoubtedly embarrass someone. And it won’t be me.
“He throws his personality into his offspring”? Wow, that’s a good one.
(Correct me if I’m wrong – mares ‘throw’ offspring and stallions ‘get’ offspring?)
On the subject of offspring -another reason Stallion owners would want to be extremely choosy about the mares would be to show what kind of ‘stamp’ the stallion puts on his foals – Can’t you see some poor little big headed, long backed cow hocked little bugger being proudly advertised as “By Bignamestallion out of Savedfromafeedlot”… Yeah, excellent advertising.
Last November my husband surprised me with a horse for my birthday then shortly before Christmas he purchased a horse for himself. We both work full time and farm 320 acres, we own our home free and clear, have good health insurance, savings and investments and people still questioned our decision to own horses in this economy. We pay $200/month board and for that we receive full board (free choice grass hay, monthly worming, turn out, stalls, and our BO/BM is on the property 24/7 and calls owners if their horse has any problems) so I feel lucky every time I read this blog and hear how much other people are paying. Everyone here loves horses and I am sure Ellie is just as horse crazy as the rest of us and while I hope she is able to at least keep her mare, she ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT breed it. My husband wanted to breed my mare to get a horse of his own but I said NO after learning so much on this blog about the unwanted horse population.
A little OT..
but seriously if you are gonna sell a horse… DON”T DO IT THIS WAY!!!
http://madison.craigslist.org/grd/1568818404.html
Big fluffly white horse – $600
Date: 2010-01-24, 6:48PM CST
Reply to: sale-enwc3-1568818404@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
Jake neckrains, rides off your leg, could go western and english, he knows everything and isnt a good horse for kids. needs some fine tuning. the reason were getting rid of jake is because we need a little kids horse and jake needs an experienced rider.
please email for more information
were posting this add for a friend.
PLEASE GO SEE THE PIC BY CLICKING ON THE LINK!!
OMG….how can anyone put a picture of a horse like that on an ad and think they’re going to sell it????
Forget the fact that he’s fallen down, which could mean many things like A) the horse may have a neurologic problem, B) he may now be seriously injured from a fall on the ice, C) the current owner is a COMPLETE dumbass, or D) all of the above. The horse is also dirty and looks sloppy, for crying out loud! This poor equine soul now has close to no hope of finding a home where he is taken care of.
Well I think her first priority should be getting her “lisence.” This is so important, speaking as a legal secretary. How is she supposed to get there to clean up after and take care of her horse with no license?
On the stallions owners’ site, part of the breeding contract states: “A Photostat of registration, proof of immunization, worming, clean culture, and coggins Shall accompany the mare. Breeder reserves the right to refuse mare if not in satisfactory health. If mare is Refused, the booking fee shall constitute liquidated damages.” Note that they assume “registered” here, as well as elsewhere in the contract.
Ellie seems to emphasize the need for the horse to “graze all day” which makes me think she is not planning on buying *any* feed at all, nor would such a pasture set-up require daily care (in Ellie’s dreams). So I suspect the mare (and subsequent foal) would essentially turn feral. Any visit and “care” would probably be limited to “Oh honey, look at mommy’s baby horsie! Isn’t he kewt?!?” Heaven help us if the foal is a colt–no doubt it would be breeding his dam in a few years…
I’d also like to know where Ellie’s money is coming from for re-purchase, board, feed, breeding fees and such. If indeed the other ad is her SO looking for work, are they independently wealthy (and being insanely frugal in their budgeting–yeah, right), or receiving public assistance and using it to support two babies and a horse?
I raise foals, and show at AQHA and NSBA shows. I’m happy to say that quite a few owners of the top AQHA stallions are paying much closer attention to the mares they’re breeding as well as the owners of these mares. I own ten mares and am only breeding two or three this year. The stallions I’ve chosen to breed two of my mares two would only accept them after talking to me on the phone and hearing my plans for the foals. Of course this doesn’t help the multitude of backyard breeders that are raising unregistered horses, but it shows an awareness at this level of the problems we’re facing with too many horses and not enough good homes. This has been a great time to upgrade the quality of mares, and I’ve done it with great pleasure. Broodmares that were unattainable five years ago are now affordable, so this is the upside of the economy, but I have a hard time believing that people breeding willy nilly with no regards to the future of the lives they’re creating are even looking for better mares. I’m sure they feel their mares are just fine.
If you have a stallion worth standing, one of the best things you can do for him is keep the stud fee in the $1000 + range. It is then up to you to offer various discounts for mares with points / good show records.
I’m sure there are mediocre horses whose owners have the money to burn on a fee like this, but it sure would deter the people who are just breeding for the hell of it. I know I wouldn’t drop $1000, $1500, $2000 on a stud fee for a grade mare, no matter how nice the stud is.
If you require a level of achievement in mare you accept, no one can sue you for discriminating against their BYB POS.
If you don’t require a certain level of achievement, because of injury, etc., then make sure your fee is high enough to deter the people who can’t afford to be breeding. Even if you can’t choose all your clients (hello, shipped semen), you CAN set the price at anything you want.
I couldn’t agree with you more! There are people out there that will charge over $1,000 for their stud fee that will breed to anyone paying it, and there are mare owners out there that think just because they paid that amount for a stud fee and got a foal that their colt is stud material. I like private treaty and then decide each mare’s worthiness on a case by case basis. Whether she be a proven performer or producer of proven performer(s) or have an outstanding pedigree capable of producing foals that have potential.
I have backed out of selling a mare to someone who was breeding stallions based on pedigree regardless of conformation. After two years of discussions with this person, I finally felt that she was looking at the right aspects of a horse being considered for breeding and let her take the mare (after she purchased a stallion that met my approval and sold the fugly ones). She is now looking at the whole picture (pedigree, conformation, what the horse has done or what she is willing to do with it to get its name out there, etc.) She is also working on improving her photography skills to show the horses she owns in their best light instead of making nice horses look like fugly candidates.
How do you not know where your has has been for three years? I find that a little strange…
Ah…I can already hear the sirens ringing. If you can find a stable that will accept payment that low, I’d definitely be checking references. How she’s going to afford keeping a mare in-foal with so little money on top of the fact that she has a child and is pregnant, plus vet bills, farrier fees, stud fees, paying for her children to go to school, etc., I have no idea. I’d love to have a horse right now but there’s no way I can afford a horse and go to school on top of all my bills. Horses can wait, as much as I don’t want them to…
As for your question, I would have my own restrictions for my stallion. I would have to see the mare, preferably in-person, her showing record, pedigree, and the results to her genetic tests (HYPP, HERDA, etc.). If my stallion is top-quality of any class, breeding, whatever, I want to make sure his bloodline stays pure but I also don’t want his line to everywhere. Know what I mean? On the other side of that, if my mare is declined, the there must be a reason.
Several years ago I turned a mare down. I never saw her but heard that she was old and arthritic. The owner wanted a baby out of her before it was to late. I told him he couldn’t afford the stud fee
There was no way I was going to have anything to do with causing more grief for some old mare that had arthritic joints by making her pack around baby weight. I just hope that no one else did either. I’ve had others ask about him, but have told them he needs more training before he needs to be used for breeding. He does have one baby that should be about 4-5 years old now but that was before I owned him.
http://stlouis.craigslist.org/grd/1568296924.html
It IS a shame he can’t sire more fuglies, isn’t it?
That’s not the best photo for a good look at his confirmation, but I don’t think he’s a horrible looking horse. He needs to be trained to do a job and see if he’s got any talent. If he ends up winning in his field he might be an okay Stallion. If not then geld. But obviously the owner of this guy has no plans on following that route.
My sister owns a very nice stallion and only breeds to approved mares. She’s turned down mares due to bad conformation, papered status (she won’t breed to grade mares. They have to be registered), etc..
I know that she’s also refused breedings to people that she felt weren’t going to do anything with the foal other than let it rot in a field.
Wow, from that post, I doubt this one can even afford that second kid, much less a horse. Poor mare, I’m seeing a very bleak future for her.
I am a long ways off from even buying another horse ( I mean not only having enough saved up to purchase an EXCELLENT prospect in whichever breed I decide on, but also having at LEAST 1 year of board pre-payed as well as a fair amount in a vet slush fund {yes, my animals do have their own bank accounts}, as well as having a few trainers in mind, and a fair budget for that as well), and I am already doing a rediculous amount of work researching breeds and bloodlines. My ‘tentative’ plan is to do something along the lines of the VLC’s program, and if, IF, we kick some serious ass in the show ring, I will have a very serious interview/application process for prospective mares, with very limited breedings. I think SakiBasenji was right on with the mare’s point status taking part in the selection, IMO no points, no babies.
On another note, I have been into paints lately and lost track of who the good ApHC horses out there are right now, anybody care to fill me in on who to watch for? I started with appy’s so I have a soft spot for them. Last time I paid attention DZ Weedo was the hottest thing on 4 legs
As of the latest Appaloosa Journal, DZ Weedo is the 7th leading sire of 2009 point-earning performance horses and 10th of performance winners. The Hunter has held the #1 spot for several years now. Both studs are owned by Char-O-Lot Ranch but in the past couple years, Char-O-Lot has toned down their ads in the Journal. They had the back cover for a long time but not anymore.
As of October 31st, 2009, the 2009 Leading Sires of Point Earning Halter Horses were:
Always Dignified (by All Inclusive)
Heza Dreamer (by Dreamfinder)
Sacred Dream (by DVS Dream Maker)
The Secret (by Dreamfinder)
Impuslive Zipper (by Impulsions AQHA)
Maid’s Dream (by Dreamfinder)
The Hunter (by Totally Impressed AQHA)
Maid Prety Impresive (by Maid’s Dream)
The Miracle Chip (by Zips Chocolate Chip AQHA)
Te Coolest (by Te Coolest AQHA)
And the 2009 Leading Sires of Point-Earning Performance Horses were:
The Hunter (by Totally Impressed AQHA)
Impulsive Zipper (by Impulsions AQHA)
Hot Chocolate Chip (by Chips Hot Chocolate AQHA)
All Hands on Zip (by Zippo Jack Bar AQHA)
Ima Doc O’Lena (by Doc O’Lena AQHA)
The Miracle Chip (by Zips Chocolate Chip AQHA)
DZ Weedo (by Dandy Zippo)
Always Dignified (by All Inclusive)
Zip’N To Paradise (by Zippo Pine Bar AQHA)
Mr. Cool Hand Luke (by Luke at Me AQHA)
I won’t put in the sires of halter and performance winners as it’s pretty much the same only in slightly different order. The ApHC separated the hunter in hand horses from the halter standings because they were skewing the leader board too much. Sires of hunter in hand horses who are not on the other lists are: Lads Straw Man, Sunbeachhonkytonk, I Love Willie, Artfully Designed, Choc Full of Chips, and Renaissance Man.
If you’re into cutters or reiners the sires of the top Appaloosa cutting futurity horses were:
High Sign Nugget
Young Gun AQHA
Playboys Remedy AQHA
Dr Bay Barton AQHA
Ima Doc O’Lena
Reining futurities:
High Sign Nugget
Shine Of A Kind AQHA
Smart Draw
Shiners Lena Doc AQHA
Hollywood Dun It AQHA
Hope that helps
Thank you for the update, I do see a lot of familiar names up there still. i don’t think i would try to limit what classes I showed, but reining and cutting horses seem to get the most recognition regardless of breed
thanks again for the update!
Chocolately is a phenominal horse in the show ring, his mind is fantastic, and he’s got correct conformation. His owner is prequalifying the mares (and owners) that he’s breeding to. There’s another young stallion by the same sire as Chocolately and out of an ApHC show mare that looks to be as talented, but time will tell if he can be trained and shown to the extent that Chocolately was. The appaloosas desperately need some outcrosses for their modern show bloodlines. Chocolatey has attracted the attention of some respected and reputable breeders in AQHA, and I think we’ll see more diversity as a result. He’s gone up against some of the top AQHA and APHA pleasure horses in NSBA classes and won. He’s an amazing animal.
This is a huge reason of why I’m so drawn to the strict standards in the Friesian resgistries. Yeah, there’s junk in the Friesian world too, but the place I work for now has awesome and high quality horses, and only the very best breeds are made from them, and people who know the breed (and actually pay attention to bloodlines and offspring) are careful. It’s nice to have the set standards from FHANA and the FPZV, especially with stallion ratings.
On topic…. I agree with Fugly and hope that someone can talk to this young lady tactfully. She at least seems well meaning, if not a bit a naive, as pointed out already.
The barn I board at has an extremely nice Appaloosa reining stallion. One of the best in the country. They did not breed him this past year, on property or to outside mares. I don’t understand how people with poor quality animals could think that now (or ever really, but especially now) is a good time to be breeding.
What is the Appaloosa reining stallion’s name? I love Appy reiners and will breed my mare someday. She’s only 4 and I’m having a ball riding her so it’ll be a ways down the road but am always keeping my eyes open for suitable stallions. I met a cute Appaloosa reiner in 2005 named Mr. Awesome Affair. He caught my eye for his athletic ability but really impressed me at the barns where he was a charismatic and sweet gentleman. His career was just starting then but he went on to win multiple ApHC world championships and continues to do well in NRHA reining competition. I’m a huge fan of High Sign Nugget, also, who happens to be the grandsire of Mr. Awesome Affair (with another world chamion in between them
Long time reader, first time poster. Off topic.
Hey Fugly, had you heard this story? http://lastchancecorral.blogspot.com/2010/01/lcc-girls-gone-repo.html
It was wonderful they got her back , but sad that someone would try to do that.
So glad they got her back! I love LCC. I’ve seen them before at Equine Affaire, and they do great work.
I know it’s not US law so it doesn’t answer your question exactly Fugs but interestingly enough the one contract which cannot be enforced by specific performance under the law of the United Arab Emirates is one for the sale of horse semen.
I.e It gives the stallion owner the absolute right to refuse to allow his stallion to bred a mare at anytime if he decides not to… even if the money has been paid. You get your money back but no service.
Makes for very interesting reading in the Civil Code and of course is designed to protect the integrity of the Arabian breed. Supposedly drafted in response to ancient customs surrounding horse breeding between the tribes which were originally settled in the area.
I had a b/w mini stallion, registered world class and amhr, and I turned LOTS of people down for stud services – one guy had 3-4 mini mares, not registered, legs so crooked they could hardly walk. I asked him, what do the foals look like? because he said he had bred them lots of times, and he told me they were fine. But 1 crooked legged one was the daughter of another crooked legged one – He also just wanted me to drop my stallion off “for a while” ! I said, “No way!”
Not sure that this is the same as a breeder saying they won’t breed their stallion to a particular mare, but it is an interesting story.
Top Thoroughbred breeding farm Claiborne Farm is very traditional, and they believe that women do not handle stallions. All grooms and stallion handlers are men. Furthermore, they do not allow women to watch the breeding, which is, of course, all live cover. Several years ago, there was an owner who wanted to breed her mare to Seeking the Gold, one of Claiborne’s top stallions. There was no objection to the mare, but Claiborne managers adamantly refused to allow the woman to witness the breeding, simply because she was a woman. I believe she sued, or at least threatened in a manner that caused Claiborne to change their minds. She was allowed to watch, but she will never breed to a Claiborne stallion again.
Women aren’t allowed to handle stallions? They really believe that???
Seriously?
Wow. Now, as much as I think that too many discrimination lawsuits are just a matter of someone who was not a good employee getting even, that is a case where I think a woman employed by them should sue just to make a point and drag them out of 1950 or whatever year they’re still living in.
(And of course, merely having all grooms/handlers be men is not legal nor justifiable. Obviously, I have thousands of women reading this blog who groom/handle stallions competently on a daily basis.)
Claiborne is very traditional, not as if that’s an excuse, but the women they employ are in other areas of the farm: breaking 2-year-olds, working with broodmares and young horses, in the office, etc. They do not hire women to handle the stallions in any way, and women are not allowed in the breeding shed when a breeding is actually happening. It’s a very old and southern mentality. And I’m sure that the people at Claiborne have enough “pull” with the good ole boys there in Lexington to be able to get away with such things.
You’re right, it’s not justifiable….I keep my yearling filly with an older woman who runs a TB rehab and has several stallions on her property, all of them boarders, because no one else will take them. She is great with the stallions, and it has nothing to do with her gender. She’s simply a great horse person.
I know some Stallions that are afraid of men and act up, but are perfect gentlemen around women. This can be true of many animals, especially ones that have been mistreated by men in the past. My dog who has never had anything bad happen to her is nervous around men the first time she meets them.
Maybe because, since they’re still living in the 1950′s, if any women workers actually saw a stallion breeding live cover, they’d have all the more reason to ridicule and reject the male harrassers they are forced to put up with at work? Just speculating…
Your possibly right. Working in the tb breeding world cannot be easy for women “down south”. My dream as a young girl was to train a tb for the track and run them in the Derby. I was offered a chance to manage a breeding farm just outside Lexington but after spending a week around local breeders at the Keeneland Auction I said no thanks. I decided I didn’t want to need to deal with bigotry or male chauvanists. I would have ended up as crass and prejudious as the few women I met were.
I guess you could say I technically own a grade mare because the farm that breed her never did the paperwork on her… although I am hoping to change that soon. Hopefully this year too. It is no fun dealing with that farm. With that said I was offered a free breeding to an outstanding stallion but I lacked the money in case something happened so I declined. Although he was the stallion that would have produced a wonderful foal out of my mare that I would have kept and trained I just didn’t have the money and I can’t stand the thought of potentially losing my mare. Until I can afford to do surrogate mare breeding plus have the money in case something happens I will not bred my mare. (Of course all this will come about after I get her papers and after she has proven herself in the ring.) But this girl should not bred her mare. There is no thought process or thinking about the future in her dreams of having a “baby.” If I never get to the point of where I can justify breeding my mare, oh well. It doesn’t bother me. They are plenty of babies out there to choose from.
As a stallion owner of a world champion stallion, I have turned down a number of mare owners. The worst one was from a gal who thought since her mare was so bad, I should offer to breed it for free. The grade mare had a bad hernia and she said that it would have to be stall bound for it’s entire pregancy. Another gal asked me if I would trade a breeding for some stationary she made, and another gal asked if I was going on a particular trail ride that was coming up. If I was, would I mind breeding her mare while on the trail ride? My stallion would forever be looking for mares to breed behind every bush on the trail. Sorry, no thanks.
OK…the lady who wanted to breed her mare on the trail ride…wow. Clearly people do not think at all!
I had a friend who was the same way as the girl in this post – living in lala land.They’d buy horses at the local low end auction and make wonderful plans for them, of course never actually following thru on those plans because of lack of knowledge and money. She once bought an 18 year old QH with serious hock issues from the auction. Her mother proudly told me that she planned to use him to try out for the Olympic in jumping! So what happened to her great plans? She borrowed a friend’s truck to haul him (not in a trailer, but in the back of the truck bed) and got into an accident. When she slammed on the brakes, the horse flew forward, hit the cab of the truck, which caused his ribs to go into his lungs and also broke his back and both rear legs. So much for those Olymic try outs.
I feel sorry for that poor horse, and if not for that I would be lol’ing at that story.OLYMPICS? REALLY?!?!
I read Craigslist all the time and am appalled at what I read regarding horses! There are truly some idiots out there, and all are looking for something for “free” – including horses! Buying a horse is just a “down payment” – the real expenses come later! So, if you can’t afford to purchase one you will never be able to take care of one properly!
Logical24 So glad you said that about plenty of babies out there.
That is exactly what I did. I had thoughts of breeding my Register Polish Arabian but thank god they were just thoughts. What I ended up doing instead was adopting a rescued colt. Actually his mother was rescued. My neighbor was a foster home for her he was getting her fattened up and trying to get her use to handling. I have two horse’s of my own and a goat. Wasn’t really looking for another. I live on 5 acres and my partner and I own our own internet marketing business. So we live very comfortably. Well to make a long story short She had an appaloosa colt she is a paint so we were very surprised. And now we have a new addition to the family. I have no idea what his father was (Appaloosa LOL) And it is totally ok with me. All I know he is the sweetest guy great temperament and good looker to boot. He will be gelded at about nine months my vet said he would like to wait until that age if he doesn’t get to colty if you know what I mean:)
Having met the people at the rescue and being educated on the flood of horses on the market and in rescues. I really could never in good concision entertain the idea of breeding my horse. When there are so many that need a home. My neighbor ended up keeping the mare he fell in love with her she is a very sweet horse ( wasn’t when she first arrived but who could blame her). She was one of the horse’s rescued from the burns area they picked up 40 horses) But after being treated with kindness and love she has learned to trust again and has found her forever home.
By the way several of the mares that the horse rescue picked up were pregnant and have had foals so they have babies to choose from. Here is there website http://www.oregonhorserescue.com (EVEA Emerald Valley Equine Horse Rescue). For anyone who maybe interested in adopting.
OK, if I assign the most positive intent I can think of, I come up with this:
*This mare was sold against her wishes and she put time and money into tracking her down.
*This is the mare she rode and loved as a teen, so she has a big emotional investment in not letting her go again.
*She also has a big emotional investment in her teenage daydreams about her mare. This is the problem.
Here’s what I would tell her if she asked:
Get a driver’s license right away. As a fellow SAHM and late driver, I can tell you that getting rides from other SAHMs or what have you while toting two car seats is not twice as hard as with one; it’s more like four times as hard. If you can drive yourself and make arrangements to have the family vehicle a few times a week (drop your husband off at work, whatever), your life will be MUCH easier.
Your mare has at least a few good years left for breeding; now is not a good time to do it; your budget doesn’t have leeway for keeping a second horse and you aren’t in a position to train it to make it saleable–not with two kids and no reliable transportation. Start a vet fund fund instead of paying for breeding and prenatal care. You know how disaster prone horses are, God bless ‘em.
Have you considered the logistics of taking on this extra responsibility? If your mare colics, or finds something sharp, or gets kicked, and she’s a drive away, and one of your kids is throwing up and feverish, and your husband has the truck and can’t leave work . . . what will you do?
You may not be your mare’s best chance at a good life right now. I’m sorry.
As a stallion owner, I can and will be extremely selective of what I will breed my stallion to. I clearly state in any and all advertising what the criteria of the potential mare is. I would rather not create anything, than something sub-par. The horse market IS in the crapper and therefore I do take offense to the statement made to the effect that you have to spend a ton of money on a horse to get a decent one. That is absolutely NOT true. Especially now when it seems that everyone is falling on hard times. I do agree that BYB’s need stopped and we need to stop flooding the market with fugly horses, no doubt. But until we do something about the greed we will always have shitty people doing shitty things. There are some really amazing horses out there at rock bottom prices and hopefully by educating folks, like this one and others, we can strive to improve the industry. Just my two cents, from a some-time poster…
I agree that the stud fee is only the beginning of your investment when choosing to breed your mare. I bred a wonderful mare I had to the #1 leading Appaloosa performance sire (not just in my mind but statistically!) and the stud fee ended up being about 1/3 of the cost of getting a foal on the ground. Between vet checks, shipping semen, inseminating, rechecking, losing the first foal at birth, more vet care for the mare, more shipped semen, more vet work, etc, I could have gone out and bought a decent prospect for the money I spent! I have to say that there are many hopes and dreams that go into unborn foals and they are a true joy and reward when they turn out “perfect.”
One thing that helps me decide if a mare and stallion are worthy of breeding together is to consider resale value of the foal. It’s great if you love your horse and don’t care if it’s a pintowalkafresian with an “endearing” (ugly) head, but you should think about what might happen to it if something happens to you and it HAS to be sold. If it is a quality horse with a solid pedigree and appropriate training, you or your family will probably not have as hard a time finding a good buyer for it.
Just because the sire and dam are two quality horses does not always mean they should be bred TOGETHER either. I’m training a horse right now who’s sire is a top notch performance horse. Her dam is a “foundation” appaloosa who has a good pedigree for those who like that type. The problem is that the serious performance riders won’t buy her because of the weak bottom side and the serious foundation breeders don’t want the more modern top side of her pedigree. The best chance this horse has is to be trained up very well and directed into the area where she will excel (with her pedigree, it’s a crap shoot at this point in time). She may never appeal to a breeder but at least she can have a job and make someone happy. Because of her mismatched breeding, she would be hard to sell for her sire’s stud fee right now, let alone more. It’s too bad because she is a real sweetheart, she will just take more work to become marketable.
What this woman *should* do is lease out the mare for a couple of years. To somebody who lives close by and who she trusts and who will let her go over and ride when she can. The mare will get miles on her and possibly a show record, she will have the legal clout to pull the mare out if it goes sour and she can, in the meantime, concentrate on her children.
Once kid two is in pre-school, she can get a part time job and THEN take her horse back…and hey, maybe at that point the mare will have a show record and she’ll know if she’s really breeding quality. Or she can work for the horse’s board while the kids are at school/pre-school.
I’m not a parent, and don’t intend to be for the same reasons as Fugly…but it’s not rocket science!
Well, the pendulum swings from the crazy hoarder with dead horses to an individual possibly trying to save her first horse. The responses have been spot on.
Although I can see myself in the young mother’s passion, recovered horse, who know’s what that story holds; she isn’t set up to provide much. Good luck.
I’m considered experienced, with 20+ yrs of successful horse ownership, giving “stuff” to my newby friend just cause I need the storage space. Checking in here, TBFriends and CRaigslist EVERYDAY…but I’m not ready for another horse. I have the funds, but not the time.
Until I know how my life plays out over the next year (Mom is moving in) I can’t commit. Because I KNOW how involved it is. Working full time, 2 hours at the stable was a short day. I had paddock board but when you ride, even clean up and cool down take time. Young children not included. And this was with a trained, un-pregnant horse!
I think this would be why the responsible stallion owner advertises as “offering a very limited booking to select mares only”…they can hear the situation, “check the schedule”, and get back to the owner. If they don’t like what they hear, I would imagine they could say they are all booked up, “maybe next year”…they can mix it up further by only offering cooled/frozen semen to tested mares, which a lot of average Joes won’t be able to pay for. People who have a bad track record of paying their vet won’t be able to get that kind of expensive specialized work done.
I reserve the right to refuse breedings to mares I don’t feel would do my stallion’s reputation any good and also will not breed him to a grade mare or anything else that won’t produce a registerable foal no matter how nice they are. I will also not accept anyone’s mare who is known to not provide adequate care for their horses. I don’t think I could be sued over that. When we used to breed ponies I lost quite a few sales because I cautioned persistently against purchasing a youngster for a kid to learn with. I know of a few of these people who bought an older horse instead and a couple who got their yearling elsewhere and headed for a trainwreck, but at least I didn’t help cause it.
I’m not counting on making a living raising horses, it’s a labor of love. It’s the reason I get up at four to get my chores done before being at my work place by five thirty.
Ellie have you even thought about how you would feel if you showed up one day to find that something has happened to your horse. I just want to tell you something that happened to me once. I had a really nice Quarter horse she was two at the time I had showed her and she was doing very well I won with her everu time I took her out. We did halter and showmanship. One day while in our uper pasture some gogs got to running her she got to close to the fence and went over it. The T post got her in the chest and rung her leg at the elbow. Thank god I was close enough to call for a vet asap. My vet was sure she would have to be put down. Well I insisted and he took her back to the clinic I road the hole way in the back of the trailer with her to help keep her as calm as I could. At the clinic after a much better exam the vet said she lost 8 lb of mucle from her chest and to save her it would take at least a year and that was a short estamit. He also said it would take at least a few thousand dollars. She would spend 45 days at the vets so he could care for her. I saw her everyday until the vet told me that me coming up set her to much. At that piont I took my best freind home as I had built her a shed to stay in at home heated. Since in was winter the big thing was to keep the wound from freezing. My vet was sure I would not have the time to care for her at home with no stanchen to put her in to clean the wound everyday. She also had a hole from her elbow to her knee that had to be flushed out and the hole in her chest had to be scraped out as well. I cryed everyday I could not belieave this kind of thing could happen. I did know even if it meant sleeping out side with her I would take care of her the best I could. Six moths later I took her back to the same vet for a booster shot so he could see her. He still had her pictures hanging up in the office. He didnt know what to say when he saw that not only did she heal I was riding her. What I am getting at is its hard enough to care for an animal in your back yard let alone one god knows where. I could of never entrusted one of my horses with anyone I could not sleep at nite. Trust me when I tell you if you show up one day to find something has happened to your horse it will break your heart. You also say you want to breed your grade mare well then you are putting her at risk it has been my personal experiance that things sometimes go wrong and you must act fast. How can one do that from a distance. I dont think you should have a horse nor should anyone breed to your mare and shame on you for being so selfish. I dont think you are thinking of your horse let alone your family. I can almost guarantee if it came down to your family or your horse. Your horse would lose that one as kids are very demanding. I think it very sad for the horses owned by people like you they are the ones seen in feed lots or starving and sick.
Let this be a reminder for everyone to CAP THOSE T-POSTS!!! Most horses aren’t as lucky as Haley’s when it comes to an injury on a t-post. And Haley, good job getting your horse reconditioned!!!
Take a look at what you wrote. That’s your potential. You let it shine and you should feel pride. But you ought to be ashamed of the way you’ve been carrying on as well.
The means to the ends matter. They do. So far the scale has been unbalanced. The negativity outweighing the and canceling the positive. How can you expect to create a kinder, better world for horses when you act cruelly. How can you expect people to change when you call them names.
I want you to think about how long I’ve been pushing you. How hard you resit ideas that aren’t your own. Your mind is so closed. So terribly closed, you actively refuse to see what is infront of you. Take homes for every horse. You used to believe that. It took you years to change that belief. Now we’re moving toward empathy, and it’s might be uncomfortable for you, but go back to before. When you still believed there were homes for every horse. Why was it so hard to believe that there wasn’t? Did a part of you know the truth, but not want to accept it? On a scale of 1 to 100 what percent of this belief was based upon fact and what percent was based about “knowing?”
Here’s the empathy part. Everybody has core beliefs. Most of these reside in experience. This is why educating children is the most effective method. By the time we’re adults our identity is wrapped up in certain beliefs. Its hard for adults to change. The people you insult are human just like you and even though 20 horses have died under they’re care they don’t see it. They’re in denial. That’s a hard shell to crack, but it’s a powerful thing if you succeed. A person can go to jail for year and cling to the idea they did nothing wrong. They come out the same person, they went in.
Wait!. I know what you’re thinking but lets address one of your core beliefs. People who support slaughter don’t love horses. I want you to challenge yourself and it’s not going to feel very comfortable, but what if these people actually do love horses? Stop! Don’t dismiss the idea quickly. (That’s how people who starve horses behave. Do you really want to be like them?) Consider that people who support slaughter believe they’re right just as much as you do. How do you change that?
Stop!
Calling names, is not the answer. Its what bullies do. It feels good, but it’s not the right choice. Partly because negativity breeds negativity, but mostly because people resist change more when you insult. It’s counter productive. And also, is that really the kind of human you want to be? So scratch calling names. (I believe there is hope for everyone, so you pessimists stand aside, Fugly might have it in her). Now go right ten things you and your readers can do. They need to be new things. Things outside your box. They cannot be new homes, and attacking back yard breeders. You already do that with minimal effect. You can even pose the ideas as questions. “What do you think of this idea?”
I’ll start. What do you think about educational brochure about responsible breeding practices printed from funds raised on this blog, and then distributed to feed stores. Maybe we could get the stores to tape one to every feed order? Could we contact a feed company and convince them to partner with us. The brochure could provide data on proper feeding of broodmares along with information whether breeding your mare is right. There’s the converse of educating stallion owners as well.
“It won’t do any good.”
Stop! I don’t know who thought that, but stop it. What you’ve been doing isn’t working. The horse population is increasing. Don’t more of the same and expecting a different result will drive you crazy. (And temper tantrums about how things never change.)
Please provide your evidence (statistical) for your argument that the horse population is increasing. That simply isn’t true, Ray, and you can’t make it true by blathering it on a blog. The truth is that fewer people are breeding, the population is declining, and people who say what I say have had a hand in that. What I’m doing is working, Ray, and it drives pro-slaughter asshats like you ker-aaazy.
Also, I’m ENDLESSLY amazed at the number of people who come here and tell me how I SHOULD write this blog. Again, and I haven’t had to say this in a while – it’s MY blog. I’ll do whatever I want. You disagree with my approach, go make your OWN blog. Blogger is free and easy to use!
You’re more patient than me fugs.
I got through the first couple paragraphs, said, “This is blather” and skipped down to your response. So that’s what he was talking about!
BTW, I totally agree, this is your blog to do with as you see fit.
I love reading it.
I don’t usually get involved in these blog things. But I had a friend point out that someone had commented on my ad for boarding and then I saw the negative comments and felt I needed to respond. Yes, I have had my ad on craigslist for over 2 years as I am a boarding facility and people come and go. I have NEVER had anyone leave because their horses were not taken care of, most of them left because they either sold their horses or got their own place. Also to the other person who said “they have HEARD things about my place” that would be heresay and shouldn’t matter. As for the “you get what you pay for” that is true, but I also am not in the business to rip people off and actually try to keep board affordable so that people can afford to keep their horses. The horses here recieve EXCELLENT CARE. So unless you have experienced a boarding facility or anything else PERSONALLY, you shouldn’t ASSUME things and post bad things, remember KARMA ALWAYS COMES BACK AROUND!
Just wanted to say that my Pony is out of CPR Cuttin Color and he wasn’t cheap so I don’t know how she can’t afford more than $100 for board when the stud fee is alot more than that :3
First let me say “THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!” Why do people insist on breeding mediocre animals? You only get what you pay for and can go broke caring for them later.
As for the question about stud service, I think it is the responsibility of the stud owner to refuse service to less than appropriate breeding situations. Whether its a less than thrifty mare or a financial situation that comes to light the stud owner is still responsible for producing foals. Maybe its snobbish to some but personally I wouldn’t want my stable name damned for breeding anything less than the best. Granted I don’t work with horses anymore, but I used to breed dogs for the show ring and still work with dogs. There are many stud dog owners that refuse service if a bitch is less than appropriate. I remember being questioned closely by one breeder when I was young. What did I know in general about breeding and what were my bitch’s faults and strengths? I felt I went thru two interviews just to breed my bitch (the inital phone call and dropping her off at the kennel)! She never took (my vet felt she had a thyroid problem without the numbers reflecting it) but I still refer to that situation as a great learning experience and benchmark for breeding any animal.
A woman in Northern Maine bought a mare and had it shipped to me to breed. I should have known something was up when she asked me to pay the trucker $90 when he delivered the mare. I did. She sent me a check. It bounced. I insisted on a clean culture before breeding the mare and when I got the report back she was clean so I proceeded to tease her. The mare laid down when I first attempted to cover her. I decided she needed to be drugged as she was a maiden and called the vet only to find out the vet hadn’t been paid either. I called the owner and told her to come get her. I got paid for her stay but found out she lied to the trucker who picked her up as well. I figured she wouldn’t ever pay me the stud fee and probably shouldn’t have a foal.