Best of FHOTD: Hooked on Phonics for Horsepeople!
Jan 07 2010
I love this one, and I’ve got a bad cold and busy today so you’re getting a rerun but I’m sure a lot of my newer readers never saw it. Feel free to share the worst typos you’ve seen lately! My favorite is the “well manured” horse. 
Thanks to Forthefutureofthebreed for supplying today’s guest blog, which should be saved as a reference for anyone writing horse ads who isn’t quite sure about terminology. Taking a little time to learn makes you look much more professional and helps get your horses attention from the kind of good homes you would like for them to have.
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“Yup, that little filly colt is out of my best stud…â€
Why can’t horse people figure out how to use correct terminology on their websites and in their stallion or sale ads? The amount of effort you put into your web site or sale ads (not adds; ad is short for “advertisementâ€) are equal to the amount of effort you put into the breeding and care of your horses. If you are an illiterate, stupid idiot, and use misspelled words and lame terminology, no one with any class is going to do business with you – only other illiterate, stupid idiots.
And, it’s horses for “saleâ€, not “horses for sellâ€. You consign your horse to a sale to sell him. I see people write, “I’m going to sale my horseâ€. It’s “sellâ€, you uneducated, backwoods moron. At least it’s only four letters…
How difficult is it to remember that a horse is BY a stallion, and OUT OF a mare? Horses are NOT out of a stallion. Foals literally come out of a mare. I’ve seen some people actually say “by a mareâ€, too.
How hard is it to spell “CONFORMATION†correctly? I mean, there really IS a difference between the definitions of conformation and confirmation.
Conformation – The shape or body structure of a horse.
Confirmation – Verification, evidence, or proof of something.
If you’re referring to the breed of a horse, it’s spelled “breedâ€.
It’s spelled “bred†if you mean, I bred my mare, or that mare is well-bred.
“Bred†is also found in the word, Thoroughbred. It’s not spelled Thorobred, Throughbreed, Thorobreed, or Thoroughbreed. FHOTD in: Also, Thoroughbred is a breed, not a synonym for “purebred.†You do not have a Thoroughbred Appaloosa unless of course it is a cross between Thoroughbred and Appaloosa.
“Bread†is that stuff you buy at the store to make sandwiches with.
Horse colors and parts are not difficult to understand or spell, either.
“Sorrel†is one word used to describe a red horse. It’s not spelled “sorrow†or “sorrell†or “sorelâ€.
A “palomino†is a golden horse with a white mane and tail. It’s not a palamino with a white main and tale. Sometimes they are “gaitedâ€, not gated. A gate is one of those things with a latch that lets you go from one side of a fence to the other.
All horses have “pasternsâ€, not pasturns. You know, the part between the fetlock and the hoof.
They also have “withersâ€, not whithers.
And what is it with people who use the phrase, “half-brother to so-and-soâ€, meaning they only share the same sire? How many other foals are by that stallion? Possibly hundreds? How many foals does a mare usually have? One a year, maybe? Do you think that saying “half-brother to†would provide more information if we all knew it meant they shared the same dam?
No, you’d rather pick the name of some famous, well-known horse by the same stallion and call it a half-brother…it makes your horse appear to be so much better quality than he really is, doesn’t it? Many horses who only share the same sire can be as different as night and day; horses who are out of the same mare tend to resemble each other, in phenotype and ability.
Horses are not people, and the relationship terminology is different.
Half-sibling – A relationship of two foals out of the same dam, but by different sires; does not apply to horses that only share the same sire.
Another very common, misused word is “produce†to describe what a stallion has sired. Mares produce, not stallions. Stallions sire; sometimes their foals are referred to as “getâ€, “progeny†or “offspringâ€. I don’t know how many times I’ve read, “My stud produced a champion.†No, your stallion sired a champion.
“My stallion is a homozygous black Tobianoâ€. Great. Which is it? Homozygous for black or homozygous for Tobiano, or both? You really need to be more specific if you’re going to use big words and fancy genetic terms. And you should have a test from a reputable genetics testing lab to prove your claims. Your Tobiano with a QH or TB parent is NOT homozygous for Tobiano. It is impossible.
FHOTD in: Also, there is no such word as homogygous. Really. Hideozygous is a word I invented on this blog to describe horses that are only stallions because they are homozygous.
Not all foals for sale are “halter prospectsâ€. People who show quality halter Quarter Horses and Paints really can tell if they’re halter prospects or not. Your weanling from foundation working horse stock isn’t going to be a competitive halter horse. Just because he is stocky right now, it doesn’t qualify him as a “halter prospectâ€. Most of them are not.
Why are all your colts “stallion prospectsâ€? I’d love to know the answer to this one. Just because they haven’t been gelded (not gilded) yet, doesn’t make them “stallion prospectsâ€. That little dun colt you raised that you’ve priced at $1,000 isn’t stallion quality. And you ranch horse and foundation QH breeders: all of your male foals are NOT stallion material. They really aren’t. Truly excellent weanling stallion prospects are registered, and worth at least $5,000, usually more. True stallion quality colts are only among the top 5% of any breed; the other 95% needs to be gelded. Just because he’s a popular color or by some famous stallion doesn’t mean he deserves to remain intact (not in tact). His dam is probably a no-name, low quality, do-nothing mare of undistinguished breeding. Most great stallions have great dams and even greater pedigrees, and they are capable of actually being competitive at the top levels of the breed.
WHY are all of your fillies (it’s not spelled phillies or fillys) and mares, “broodmare prospectsâ€? Must you breed them all? Just because they are capable of having a foal, doesn’t mean they should be bred. Do you know that a mare really worthy of being a broodmare should be, in the very least, the same level of quality as a good stallion? Most mares will be bred at some point in their lifetime, just because they CAN be bred. That cheap stallion down the road isn’t going to magically fix your mare’s crooked legs. And, no, having a foal isn’t going to “settle her downâ€, either. She’s still going to be a crooked-legged nasty bitch after she has her foal, and that foal will most likely be just like her.
Also, why is it people say that “nothing matters past the first three generations†of a pedigree, yet they will use a name “just off the papers†to make their horse sound better? You know, if your horse doesn’t have anyone worth a shit in the first three generations of hispedigree , he’s probably a piece of shit, too. The true value of your horse is probably quite different than your idea of the value of your horse.
And, what moron decided that the term, “tri-colored†applied to horses? What you consider “tri-colored†are just bay Paints or Pintos! You know, brown and white body, with a black mane and tail and legs. Would you call a bay horse with white socks “tri-coloredâ€, too? Tri-colored is a dog term.
Finally, can someone tell me the difference between an “own son of†and a “son of� Is an own son better?
211 comments to “Best of FHOTD: Hooked on Phonics for Horsepeople!”
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Oh so true! The one I see the most has to be “sale” where “sell” should be and vice versa… Drives me nuts!!!
Grate post!
Where has Forthefutureofthebreed been? I miss reading her posts.
Hehe, I almost corrected your rotsky (after a guy on another forum who went around “correcting” words to the wrong word).
She has her own forum now, but I can’t remember what it’s called.
…and she’s posting here now. Hi FTFOTB!
I do hope those of you who read the above realize that it was a JOKE! “Grate” for “great” in a post about spelling mistakes – get it? Apparently someone further down in the comments thought some of us were serious. Jeeeesh!
Also, for the “confirmation” vs. “conformation” challenged, it goes the other way as well. See the post below from our friends at CakeWrecks – look at the third cake down and then read the comments:
http://cakewrecks.blogspot.com/2009/07/say-what.html
Finally, we had someone working in the classifieds section for the local rag who wrote all the pet ads phonetically. It was an absolute hoot trying to figure some of them out. For example, what was a “doxin”? or a “Samoan”? in the dogs for sale section. I so hated it when they went to computer based ads with spell checking…
Whoops, ^^^^it’s the 4th cake down.
My all time favorite dog ad typo: Datsun puppies for sale. I was DYING to call and ask if they were stick shift or automatic!
Reminds me of this sign that someone had on their fence with a paddock with a few colts in it by the road offering “Colds for sale” LOL wish i took a picture of it.
I wish! I have a bad cold and a dog that needs a $2000 surgery…that would be helpful.
Let me guess–ACL surgery????
We’re saving up for that.
i wondered the same thing, littledog. ACL surgery can be pricey, but I am here to tell you that it’s definitely worth it. We had our dog’s knee “traditionally repaired” in February, using the “fishing line” technique. Mainly because of cost we chose that over TPLO; plus, our vet has done a ton of traditional repairs with excellent results. You can now count our Springer Spaniel among them. Best $1500 I ever spent! It took 7 months but her knee is functioning absolutely normally and she doesn’t limp at all. I think joint supplements helped, too (Glycoflex II). The best advice I have for you and FHOTD, if that’s what she’s planning to do, is hand-walk for way, way longer than you think is necessary. We had a setback at 8 weeks that resulted in a torn meniscus because we thought she was doing alright and let her out. Nope – it took a solid 4 months before it was really okay for her to be off-leash. Better safe than sorry!
And by the way, we didn’t have the money to do it, either… had to raid the kids’ savings acounts. Bad mommy to them, good mommy to doggie!
No, not ACL. I went to the shelter with a cat rescuer friend in late November and met up with this little Chi-Yorkie mix who was in the medical room. She was mildly lame behind and had reduced ROM in her tail but she didn’t seem to be in any kind of pain and of course she saw the neon glowing SUCKER on my head and sucked up to me, licking me and acting like she’d just found her long-lost mother.
I said, well, she’s 5 lbs. Maybe she won’t scare the cats, and if she does, I can adopt out a Chi-Yorkie any day, especially one this friendly. She came home and proceeded to be the perfect dog. Housebroken, doesn’t scare the cats, hardly ever barks, crate trained, very well behaved. I took her in this week for her spay and I asked them to shoot some x-rays to see what was going on with the tail. Broken tail AND broken pelvis. Probably hit by a car. Oh, and she’s 2 years old, not the 6 months the shelter guessed, and had already had puppies. Even when I am not trying, I apparently rescue from BYB’s!
I am going to shoot the xrays to a vet friend for a 2nd opinion. I have no issue about getting the surgery done if it’s the best solution but there seems to be some debate about that online so I just want to make sure I’m doing the right thing. Apparently Yorkies tend to have a lot of difficulty with anesthesia – I was happy she came through the spay perfectly. I need to know that risking a major surgery really is the best route to take before I do it.
lostmymarbles, thanks so much for the advice! That’s really helpful—right now we’re leaning towards TPLO, just because our border collie/ACD mix is pretty big and stockily-built, and it’s only (?!) $500 more than the fishing-line technique. Our vet has done both, with better results for heavier dogs, with TPLO–but I’ve seen some research that there are now better materials for the “fishing-line” that are more likely to last, with less arthritis as they age.
But we have time to do more research and decide, because the plan is to get him done in March after we get our yearly employee bonuses (IF we do–last year we didn’t but things are looking a bit better this year.)
GREAT advice about the aftercare—we’re just dreading trying to keep him as still as possible and hand-walk-only is going to drive him and us nuts–but your results have inspired me to be really disciplined about it when the time comes. We’ve had him on doggy-cosequin for the past few months, and plan to continue with it (probably for life) whatever type of surgery we decide.
And Fugs, even though your pup has a different issue, your story reinforced that spending such a big chunk of change on our dog IS the right thing to do for him, in spite of the opinions of friends and family members who think we’re crazy.
Thank You!
Dang… I’m guilty.. think I’ve messed up on the half sib stuff…
Darn, I have too. Thats one that was honestly never explained to me, but since pointed out makes complete sense.
I am a stickler for it only being a half sibling if it is o/o the same mare….except for breeding….when explaining what might and might not make good crosses, any two horses that share a common sire or dam are “half siblings” as far as I am concerned.
My mom and I refer to our two Paso Finos as “brother and sister” even though they don’t match the technical definition. Amiga and Zorro are by the same stud and their moms are technically half-sisters. So 3 out of 4 of Amiga and Zorro’s grandparents are the same. Plus they were born on the same night and have lived together their whole lives. And they’re both bays with two socks and a star! We might as well call them twins!
Nice blog, got a laugh.
The term “own son of” refers to when the stallion has only had one colt. That colt is the own son of said stallion, regardless of how many fillies he sires.
People do use it to refer to ANY son of a stallion…even if he has 50 of them. What you just said might have been the original intent – not sure – but I know it’s always “well, he’s an OWN SON of X” – as opposed to what, a disowned son?
I’m thinking that what they mean by “an own son of” is you will hear some people say…”oh he’s by a (example) Zippo Pine Bar stud”…where as some people will say “he’s an own son of Zippo Pine Bar” or “he’s by an own son of Zippo Pine Bar”…that’s my take on it
Sigh, how many times have I also heard the term ‘Own duaghter’ used. ARRRGGHH!!
daughter
Wouldn’t proper english be “the only son of”…please correct me if I’m wrong, but it does sound better to describe a stallion who has sired only one colt…but then again, that would be used in human world, not equine world. BUT then again couldn’t they just say “the only colt sired by ___ stallion? If that is what they mean…I guess you could go ’round and ’round with this one because “son” is a human term and colt is an equine term….ok, enough already…sorry
I took “own son of” to mean that they actually own the son of JoeBlow soandso. In other words, if I say I am standing an “own son of” JoeBlow soandso then that means I own the horse, not that he is just standing at my barn and owned by someone else. Anyone else take it this way? Ya ya ya! I have made the half-sibling mistake too. Good blog!
Except that doesn’t make any sense and nobody would care if that’s the only male progeny he has
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FTFOTB explained that term somewhere in the IOTB debacle: I think it was that it was a direct son of a horse bred by the same breeder who created his sire, or that he came out of the farm who made his sire famous? It’s acknowledging that he’s not only by a famous sire, he’s from the breeding program that produces those kinds of horses.
In reality, “own son” has always meant, “He’s actually an OWN SON OF [insert name of famous horse here].” It has nothing to do with “owning” the horse or the colt, or how many foals the stallion has sired. You will see this term in the older stock horse publications, in articles and ads. It likely originated in the local sale barns in the 1940s, where “embellishments” were used liberally to make a horse sound so much better than he actually is. Regardless, it’s still stupid, and simply stating a horse is a son of so-and-so should be sufficient. It’s not that difficult to find out for sure if the horse in question is registered.
The way the “own son” thing was explained to me was that people will say that a horse is a son of such and such when actually he’s a grandson or great-grandson. Own son meant that he was first generation by such and such.
Normally i really enjoy reading your blogs… This time though… It really is just ridiculous… It seems like you have your panties in a bunch and are beginning to think you are so much better then every other person in the horse world…What are you in that top five percent with those amaziing stallions?
You can’t ride papers… it really doesn’t matter what is on a horses papers as long as they have a kind personality and are willing… Conformation is important, but only to a degree… I’d rather have a knock kneed roach backed mare with no papers with a kind dispostion and that was willing to please, then a pefectly built witchy mare that would as a soon hurt ya then look at ya with amazing papers…
Referring to a horse as a piece of shit just because they have no papers is pathetic and makes you look like an ass…
First of all, if you actually read this, you’d see it was a guest blog and I did not write it. That said, I disagree with EVERYTHING in your post. I do not believe anyone should EVER breed unpapered horses in this economy unless it is a case of a horse with an absolutely stellar, i.e. Olympic level, performance record.
Are you new here? The whole reason this blog started was to VIOLENTLY object to the breeding of conformationally incorrect horses. The topics have expanded since then but that was the original, main point. Conformationally incorrect horses tend to have a lot of problems physically and do not excel in competitive disciplines. Therefore producing more of them is flat out irresponsible.
Furthermore, your statements make you sound like a BYB. THERE IS NO CHOICE BETWEEN DISPOSITION AND QUALITY! It is NOT an either-or. The ONLY horses that should EVER be bred have both a kind disposition AND quality.
This is all stuff I’ve been saying for years. Nothing new here.
touche’ to you FHOTD! (God, I hope I spelt that rite!)
Disposition in the offspring is also a major factor in breeding a quality horse. It’s not just the physical aspects.
I apologize.. I didn’t realize it was a guest blog… I skipped through the top section of it and missed the guest part… My bad and for that I apologize…
That being said… There are allot of people that do bred horses that perform well and are built well that have past nasty attitudes… People also breed for the extremes of their disicipline, just look at halter horses… they are so muscular they are almost crippled… Its not just the people who breed grades that are detrimental to the horse industry. There are just as many people that will breed a horse because it has a big name on its papers and may have placed in a futurity once upon a year as people who breed grade horses…
And I do agree that the majority of the people that own a horse do not know enough about raising a baby to actually breed a mare and raise that baby properly, much less how to choose a stud that will compliment that mare’s weaknesses. I believe that was addressed in a pervious blog/blogs…
Just last year I bought a pretty nice mare. She is put together pretty nice, has a kind personality, and very willing disposition… she does have her flaws, but EVERY horse has flaws of some sort… She is a rope horse and I show her with the stock horse association… She does well and has always done well as a rope horse… She had papers… She doesn’t anymore… The woman I bought her from didn’t want to pay what the gentleman wanted for her with the papers, so should I have passed her up just because she didn’t have a set of papers that dubbed her better then other horses?
I think the main difference between what you have and what is being discussed here is you do know your horse has/had papers and know the horses lineage. There are people that are breeding horses that have no idea what different breeds were melded to create their horses. There is a big difference between those two situations and the later SHOULD NOT be bred. If you bred your mare you could get the foal registered even though you don’t phisically have the papers in your hand for your mare. It would probably be costly but is possible. Slightly different subject but, I see ads for horses all the time that say registered dun or palomino. That tells me the horse is grade and only belongs to a color registry.
Ok you must not have actually read the blog…
allot = a lot
bred = breed, two e’s, “bred” is past tense and your entire sentence is gramatically incorrect
I think you’ve missed the point. This blog revolves around what horse breeding would be like in a perfect world where nobody bred a horse that was fugly or had a nasty attitude. In a perfect world all horses would have papers so you could track down any genetic issues that might crop up and eliminate them. In this imaginary perfect world, a horse would have to be an outstanding representative of its breed with a performance record proving it in order to be bred.
We realize that this isn’t a perfect world, and in this blog Fugs and others point out the more glaring differences between that ideal world and the real world, and usually explain WHY the situation being criticised is bad. It’s educational if you’re paying attention.
“The woman I bought her from didn’t want to pay what the gentleman wanted for her with the papers, so should I have passed her up just because she didn’t have a set of papers that dubbed her better then other horses?”
If what you want is a good RIDING horse then papers aren’t critical. BUT if what you want is a BREEDING QUALITY horse, then you need to invest in a horse that is both high-quality and has the papers to go with it.
If a person can’t afford to buy quality papered animal for breeding purposes, then they can’t afford to breed horses.
Personally, when I’m shopping for anything that I’m buying person-to-person, regardless of if it’s a horse or an item of used tack or a used truck or anything else- when I find an ad that’s full of misspellings and bad grammar I don’t even bother to call.
Piggydog,
From what I’ve seen, while often remarks are taken to extremes on this forum, the basic truth is .. well.. a basic truth.
You may have a wonderful mare– she might in fact be the best horse you have ever ridden. I currently own four horses– two are registered, one has lost papers, and one has not the slightest prayer of ever having a claim to papers. They are all wonderful horses.
But when you start talking about breeding any horses, the reality is that we breed too many horses. There is a surplus of horses in the world. Furthermore, breeding horses is a specific science requiring intense knowledge of genetics. If you don’t have the knowledge, and you simply breed a ‘good mare’ to a ‘good stud’, you run a high chance of ending up with a foal that is NOT like its parents. That’s fine, if you don’t mind killing off three or ten foals to get one nice one. If such a method seems crude or cruel to you, then you should understand why we say, do NOT breed without papers. Ride without papers, love without papers, work without papers. But DON’T breed.
You do raise an important point, though, which I have a feeling FOTD agrees with: Papers aren’t worth anything if the horse is a piece of junk.
Piggy is either a BYB or a troll… I totally agree with you Fugs. Piggy, the problem is that papers are a tangible display of worth, like a university degree. If someone is faced with the choice of the papered mare that they can show all kinds of place or the non-papered that can only do a few things, which do they take? Papered of course! And the idea behind breeding is to improve the breed. By all means, adopt your roach backed mare and love her. But don’t breed her.
Own son was used to ensure the buyer the horse was first generation because people would use son of X when the horse was more like a grand child or great great grandchild.
That makes sense.
THANK YOU! That makes complete sense! Now I won’t be so annoyed every time I read that phrase.
You want a good cringe check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8xvsKMgbn4
Seriously bad English accents and would it kill them to brush the horse or actually talk more about them than just how cute they are?
How stupid
Here’s one on our areas “famous” Local Sales Network which is notorious for alot of backyard breeders trying to sell their poor little fugly horses. This person seems to think that pricing a horse low will make sure they go to a good home, LOL…..she also says she doesn’t have time to “full” with the horse (which of course is a 2.5 year old unhandled fugly stud), and from the looks of his backbone sticking up, I bet he wishes he was full…and not living in a dog kennel….:(
http://www.golsn.com/listings/farm-livestock/live_stock/1267334.html
I sure hope his head isn’t really that big. Poor thing.
That poor little creature. What a heart-breaker. At that price I sure hope his future isn’t to make some Frenchmen full.
Oh even worse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MlZAFQv_IU&feature=channel
The website is another crack up.
Horse’s = horses
Teethe = teeth
Ridding – well actually they may mean to be ridding them , but those videos arent’ going to help.
A good reason why we don’t feed treats to horses except out of their feed bucket…
Oh, this is gonna be fun…… I told you I would have a never ending supply~~check out this pony, it actually rides a 5 year old girl!!!!!!! Geesh people!!!
http://www.golsn.com/listings/farm-livestock/live_stock/1269026.html
“Half-sibling – A relationship of two foals out of the same dam, but by different sires; does not apply to horses that only share the same sire.”
This really depends on what breed you are speaking of, but the rest of it I completely agree!
In which breed would it be different?
Actually, that terminology is not breed-specific. That “official” definition of half-sibling is from HORSEWORDS – The Equine Dictionary. It’s also been documented throughout history in the published material of the Arabian and Thoroughbred breeds over the last three hundred years. It has remained constant throughout much of the light horse breed pedigree literature thereafter.
“You know, if your horse doesn’t have anyone worth a shit in the first three generations of his pedigree , he’s probably a piece of shit, too”
I agree with most of this blog, nothing irritates me more than people who can’t master a spell check program and use it. However I have to disagree with this statement. My horse is a non descript, thoroughbred x connemara from Ireland. He has no papers, and therefore is unlikely to have anything of any value in his pedigree. He is however, one of the best horses I have ever ridden. He hasn’t got the most beautiful conformation, and certainly won’t win any inhand classes anytime soon, but he schools over 1m15 with ease, fly’s cross country, is unbeatable in a jump off and is amazingly quick on turns, angles and can dig himself out of anything. He’s reliable, has a spark to him but is responsive and snaffle mouthed, and regurlarly beats fancy bred warmbloods in competition. In my quest to bombproof him, we’ve jumped shiny helium balloons, tigers (huge cuddly toy), carried umbrellas and walked past a field of people shooting at birds without batting an eyelid, all the while my friends well bred warmblood was cowering at a bird in a tree.
In short, I object strongly to your implication that as he has no breeding to speak of, he is a ‘piece of shit’, and agree with piggydog, in that while good breeding certainly has an effect on performance, it isn’t everything and a horse shouldn’t be disregarded for a lack of papers. (For the record, my horse is a gelding)
*regularly
My comment, ““You know, if your horse doesn’t have anyone worth a shit in the first three generations of his pedigree , he’s probably a piece of shit, too—, and most of the rest of my post addressed the problems seen in the STOCK HORSE INDUSTRY, more specifically, Quarter Horses. But, since your horse is a crossbred with no papers, how do you know what is in his pedigree? There might be a few good ones back there that are responsible for making him such a nice horse for you, only you aren’t aware of who those ancestors are. If you tell me you DO know who the ancestors are on either side of your horse’s pedigree, then he’s not really an undocumented piece of shit, is he?
Many crossbreds are nice horses, but many grade horses don’t have a documented pedigree. A pedigree is a “blueprint” or clue to a horse’s potential and a record of the accomplishments and production of his ancestors. It is a real record of known ancestors with known characteristics (and a record of any possible genetic defects so they can be avoided). If a breeder is responsible and has done their homework, a planned pedigree over several generations is indicative of that breeder’s knowledge and goals, and hopefully, quality horses are the result. Breeding for anything less is just plain irresponsible.
A grade horse should not be disregarded as a performance horse just because they don’t have papers. However, the odds that the grade horse is a breeding quality animal is quite small, and the predictability of a quality outcome by mating that horse is zero. Knowing that approximately 50% of ANY given bloodline is not breeding quality, where does that leave an undocumented pedigreed horse?
A grade gelding that is a good quality, useful horse is not a piece of shit. But you already knew that. And so did I.
I agree and since the first generation of Flying_High’s horse’s pedigree includes a horse imported (implies an assumption that they live outside of Ireland) from Ireland it is not of completely unknown origin. One of the horse’s parents was valued by someone enough that they went through a lot of trouble and expense to import a horse or possibly just sperm. Most people don’t go through this trouble and expense for a POS to produce more S. If I were in the market for another horse I would consider this horse to be worth seeing. But this guy would have to sell himself with show records or performance and behavior I could experience since he has no papers to give me an idea of his potential. It sounds like he is lucky to have someone who could get past the no papers thing to find a good horse. Many people just won’t and I get it.
When shopping last year, considering a horse with no papers was a lot of work. I horse shopped seriously, for quite a while, with my trainer and bought the best mover, conformation and attitude I could afford. He is doing great in his dressage training but it would be nice to be able to compete for breed awards when I start to show again. With papers he would be worth a lot more, but, I wouldn’t have been able to afford him. I compromised on breeding/papers when I chose between him and some registered horses who didn’t move quite as nice, but were decent by any standards.
In my open minded shopping experience I learned that when there are not papers there is usually a good reason they didn’t bother- nothing worth communicating. They are usually a POS, begotten of S, bred by BYB S and the property is full of S. Finding a good one who is under saddle, ready to/mature enough to work and healthy, is as rare as winning the lottery.
Nobody is saying you can’t love your gelding, or excel in competitions on him. In fact, the statement you quoted was specifically refering to horses that were ‘stallion prospects’ or ‘broodmare prospects’.
In fact, no one is objecting to people trying to sell unpapered horses, or saying that you shouldn’t buy or rescue them. The point is to not breed them. Your horse sounds great, but you said so yourself, he has conformation faults. If you bred him (in an alternate universe where he wasn’t a gelding), you’d risk passing those on and possibly exacerbating them. Since you don’t know his pedigree because he isn’t papered, you also don’t know what might be recessive in his DNA that could come out later. Even if he doesn’t pass along problems, he sounds like an unremarkable horse that was made awesome through training and love.
Husbandry is not an amateur’s game, and unfortunately if you start with two unremarkable horses, the best you’ll get is an unremarkable horse, and selling it won’t bring in enough cash to cover the care of properly birthing and raising the foal. This encourages people to slack off on care, which leads to a lot of the problems detailed on the blog.
Please remember that you don’t need to breed a horse to ride it or love it.
fly’s?
I do believe that as Fugs repeated once that “pieces of shit” of a horse is making reference to a horse not worthy of breeding. Therefore, no offspring should be produced from that horse with no or lousy parentage. Example: I had a wonderful horse growing up. She was a mare out of a TB sired by none other than a Shetland pony. It was an accidental breeding which happened when someone’s lil’ stud got away while at a show. (it was the only explanation they could come up with) It should never have happened and was totally unknown until months after conception. Now, my horse, the half breed was a dynamite animal. She had the conformation, athleticism and looks of a 14.2h TB. She won every class I ever went in. BUT! if I were stupid enough to have bred her there was a 99% chance every bad characteristic in her gene pool could and would come out in the foal she would have…then you would have a second generation fugly f*cking horse.
Did I make the purpose of this blog any clearer to some???
Operative word, for the folks who seem to have missed it: *probably*
Flying_high,
Most all of us are quite jealous of your horse! Well, I am, anyway.
His cross (TB connemara) is a well known cross to produce a good athlete. The irish regularly created a 3/4 or 7/8ths fTB to Irish Draft to make a great field hunter. Presumably, hopefully, your guy was a combo of two reasonably to super nice examples of their breeds, and crossed with a relatively known outcome. I would never see this breeding, despite “no papers”, as a POS. Unless the mare (or stallion, if left intact) proved to be a national quality animal in their chosen discipline, most of us would agree it would be wiser NOT to breed, and get a youngster of similar “first cross grade” quality that abounds and needs a home. If you really want a homebred out of a quality grade mare and plan to have it forever, you still would be wise to breed back to a stellar representative of one of the mare’s “parent breeds” ie, TB or conn, which best complements the mare’s strengths and flaws. THAT foal would have a better chance if it did end up not staying with that first owner “forever”.
Those stock horses… no offense, stock breed lovers, but there are many breeders that focus on a name 2 or 3 generations back rather than conformation and ability, and before long there’s a lot of crap, farther from the good tree… IMHO that’s what the post was referring to…
I am Boyfriend
I think you meant “than” not “then”…was willing to please, then a pefectly built witchy mare that would as a soon hurt ya then look at ya with amazing papers…
I agree with most of those postings…some I don’t…but I wanted to tell you, I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE SAY OUT OF THIS SIRE AND OUT OF THIS MARE…which is it?…being a pedigree buff, nothing aggrivates me more then when people say
SELLER-”oh this colt is out of this stud”…
ME- “oh, I thought you said it was a filly?…”
SELLER- “it is”
ME- “you just said colt”
SELLER – “it’s a filly”
ME – “okay………you better have your stallion in the guiness book of world records because to my knowledge, NO stud has ever had a foal come out of him”……………*walks away with head imploding*
oh…forgot to mention when I walk away with my head imploding…my eye twitches…LMFAO
Every time I hear that a foal is “out of” a stallion, I say “damn, that must have hurt!”
I understand beginners getting confused about some of these terms but I think OUT OF is pretty self-explanatory!
The only stallion that would have a foal out of him would be a sea horse.
While I agree with most of this guest blog there are a couple of errors are inaccuracies:
>>1. Conformation – The shape or body structure of a horse.<>No, you’d rather pick the name of some famous, well-known horse by the same stallion and call it a half-brother…it makes your horse appear to be so much better quality than he really is, doesn’t it? Many horses who only share the same sire can be as different as night and day; horses who are out of the same mare tend to resemble each other, in phenotype and ability.<<
Nonsense. 50% of any animal's DNA is inherited from the male and 50% from the female. I know in traditional thinking (especially with TBs) half brother/sister applies only to horses with the same dam but this erroneous belief was established long before a complete understanding of genetic inheritance was known. The TB world also believes the breed would be "weakened" if anything but live cover were allowed. Neither claim (only horses out of the same dam are 1/2 brothers or sisters or that the breed would go to hell in a handbasket if AI was employed) has any basis in scientific FACT.
As far as horses looking more like their dams, I can show you plenty that are near dead ringers for their sires. It all depends on how the genes are expressed. A stallion or mare that is heavily inbred or linebred will usually have much more impact on phenotype than one with less.
While there are some stallions who really “stamp their get” (there’s another “term” for you), the female line has been proven to be where the majority of the influence is in a pedigree. Of course there are exceptions, especially if you’re just glancing at the “surface” of a pedigree. The recent discoveries regarding Mitochondrial DNA show that there are aptitudes and characteristics that can only be passed down through the female line, and is only carried by the females in the MtDNA, not the nuclear DNA. For example, in Thoroughbred (and QH) race horses, a stakes winning female line will most likely remain a stakes producing line throughout time, regardless of the sires the females are bred to. No amount of high dollar stallions will improve upon a poor quality female line, and there is a lot of documentation for that. One glance at a Keeneland sale catalog and the quality of black type among certain families will show this. Most of each page is devoted to the female line, while the sire has but a short paragraph. I have some TB sale catalogs here from the 1800s, and they will show the mare line back 20 generations or more, AND they mention the female family number. Today, it’s all about the money. Black type sells, and there’s a reason for that. The money doesn’t follow the failed lines, even if those mares are bred to the best stallions.
Many of the most famous breeding programs were founded on good mares, and those horses were most likely linebred to those good mares. Tesio, King Ranch, Wiescamp, etc. all linebred to quality mares. There are volumes written about this specifically (Inbreeding to Superior Females is one title). Many of your long time breeders knew this all along, but there wasn’t much scientific proof to prove it. Understand that the general public is consumed by the stallions. They’re the ones advertised and put in the public spotlight on a regular basis. I can guarantee you that for every top foal sired by a good stallion, there will also be a clunker. A dynasty of great horses can’t be founded on sires alone; you realize this when you study the pedigrees of some of the bigger foundation Quarter Horse breeders. It’s propagation of more of the same with no breed improvement taking place because the emphasis is placed solely on the stallions in the pedigree.
Yes, each parent contributes 50% of their DNA to the foal. Blood percentages in each generation, and the amount of influence from each ancestor are totally separate things. Blood percentages are equal throughout the pedigree; influence is not.
Actually, most of the stuff I’ve read on horse genetics says that the dam is responsible for a lot more that goes on in a horse’s DNA than the sire. For an example, see this article http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/Research/zweig/Newsletter/2000-02/index.html?/public/Research/zweig/Newsletter/2000-02/gender.htm~Story
If buyers are trying to use siblings to predict future performance, they’ll probably feel like ads which link get of the same stallion are at best disingenuous and at worst false advertising.
Finally!!!!!!!!!!!! I half held my breath while reading the article hoping someone would bring up the ridiculous ‘own son of” moniker that makes me cringe inwardly every time I hear it. Thank you for touching on it, at least I now know I’m not the only one. My other gripe, other than the stated ignorance and mis-spelled ad descriptions is the old timers who are inherently unable (have to wonder if there’s any ‘inbreeding’ there) to refer to any foal no matter the gender, as anything other than a colt. My last peeve is those that refer to ‘breaking’ a horse to ride. You TRAIN it, , that is, unless you’re a Neanderthal. Big sigh, I feel much better now.
Well, isn’t Ms. Guest Blogger a snobbish crank!!!!!!!!!!!! A horse doesn’t have to have papers to be good. I can’t spell misspell. I guess that makes me a backwoods moron?
Good at what?
Excellent riding horse? Probably. But she never said they weren’t.
Food to poop converter? Most definitely.
Producer of something that isn’t fugly? That’s a little more dicey. And that’s why we have Fugs.
I would enjoy hearing your opinion on what we can do with the fugly horses that are already here.
I myself have never bred anything… not dogs, cats, horses… not even hamsters!
A few months ago I became the owner of a fugly Appaloosa colt. I got him from a BYB who swears anything with ‘color’ (be it buckskin, palomino, dun factored, painted, or spotted) sells. My colt is from no-name breeding, your typical fugly BYB foal (He isn’t even a true Appaloosa he is out of an App mare and by a QH stud). This little guy was given to me because he is a brown/dark bay color with no appaloosa characteristics. For some reason she thinks this, along with the fact that he was born late, is why she couldn’t sell him for the $250 she was asking. I realize he may eventually get spots. However, this mare has thrown solids when bred to very spotty Appaloosa stallions so I’m not counting on them to show up. I honestly couldn’t give a damn if they do or don’t.
I just couldn’t say no to the needy, wormy, dirty, fugly little guy. I had just given my horse to a friend. She wanted something to show in Qh and 4h shows (her dream, she loved this horse) so being horseless at the time I didn’t have to say no.
I feel terrible though, thinking that in giving this colt a home where he will be loved, GELDED, and brought up right with a great deal of training that I have somehow supported her ‘business’.
Give them a safe home, geld them if they are a colt, and train them to do a job. That is the best solution for the ones that are already here. I wonder how many of your BYB pal’s foals have to go unsold before she stops making excuses for their failure to sell and realizes she is producing foals no one wants to buy?
Sadly her horses will always sell… it just might be at New Holland for $10! Which, she can still break even with becuase my colt sure as hell didn’t have any vet care and never saw a tube of dewormer in his short life, so I doubt his momma did.
I just hope that in giving this guy a home I havent supported her habit, which I’m sure I did. =(
Next year there will be a pasture more full of babies. Ugh it makes me ill just thinking about it.
He will be gelded, he has a great forever home with me, and he will get a job when the time comes. For now, he can just be a baby.
That drives me crazy. The October auction someone posted in the last comment thread had four yearlings sold by one lady. She didn’t even break three figures for ALL OF THEM. How in the hell do you justify selling a horse for $20? Even if you don’t like horses, that should tell you that you are scraping the bottom of the barrel in your business!
I’ve often wondered if BYB’s breed for the Kyoot Baybie months, then it grows older and it’s not so Kyoot or manageable, it’s sold for cheap and the sad process repeats.
Kudos to you FlyinSoLow for doing what the breeder wouldn’t.
““Bred†is also found in the word, Thoroughbred. …. FHOTD in: Also, Thoroughbred is a breed, not a synonym for “purebred.†”
Actually it is. The word thoroughbred ( LOWER case) is used to describe a horse that is in face a “purebred” of a specific breed.
Google definition: “A thoroughbred is a horse that has parents that are of the same high quality breed.”
Websters:
Main Entry: 1thor·ough·bred
Pronunciation: \-ËŒbred\
Function: adjective
Date: 1701
1 : thoroughly trained or skilled
2 : bred from the best blood through a long line : purebred
3 a capitalized : of, relating to, or being a Thoroughbred horse b : having characteristics resembling those of a Thoroughbred
Also have to agree, even though I know you did not write this blog, about horses with no papers being “pieces of shit”.
Some are. Many more are perfectly average and suitable for many different things, even if they did not excel at what they were bred for.
Being a proud owner of a 20 year old OTTB gelding who definitely was a reject and was bought from the New Holland auction 12 years ago.
Keep up the good work Fugly. You do a good job!
I agree. I have a papered quarter horse who is as fugly as they get. He’s sweet, dumb, and fugly, but he’s the perfect guest horse.
Some CL posters in Texas offer “Two Horses One Money” on a regular basis. Cracks me up.
I actually read the Kijiji ads everyday – my version of the daily “funnies”. You missed ferrier *heh heh*.
While I agree with most of it, I don’t agree about the papers – but again, I’ve had some outstanding unregistered horses who’ve won more money than many people make in a year. But then again – I don’t agree with just randomly breeding horses either. There needs to be purpose and quality, and even breeders of quality horses need to have a market for their horses. There is no point in creating more horses that will just flood the market and end up in dog food.
I like “stands for the furrier.” Between that and all the poor cats that have been “spaded,” I do not know who I feel more sorry for!
Furrier. ROFL!
And you KNOW whoever spells things like that actually SAYS them like that. That’s the best part.
I just have to say, when I see Thoroughbred spelled “Thoroughbread”, I picture a loaf of bread wearing a saddle.
Seriously, if you don’t have good spelling skills, at least use an online dictionary or use a spell checking website before you post your ads. Eesh!
Although, as some others have already commented saying, I agree just because a horse doesn’t have papers or a show record doesn’t make them a POS. Although I’m not sure that’s what the guest blogger intended to say, or at least I hope not. Even horses who aren’t breeding or show quality may be able to find a place in the horse world to be VERY useful. I have a feeling none of the unattractive ponies I rode when I was just learning the ropes had bloodlines to brag on, papers, or a show record. But they taught me lessons that are invaluable.
If an animal of mine ever made it to the ‘furrier’, I’d hope they no longer had the ability to stand!
(isn’t a ‘furrier’ one who processes hides to make fur coats?)
But even with those good crosses that aren’t eligible for registries, someone is keeping track of lineage. That information is probably written down somewhere, perhaps on a thin sheet of pulped and dried wood. It isn’t official papers, but it serves the same purpose.
ZebraNeighbor-That Two horses One money expression is an auction term. It means you get the two horses for one amount of money. Sometimes at auctions they sell things as Two horses Twice the money (or bid). People end up paying twice what they think they bid because it is doubled. Most auctions will spell this out often because people don’t seem to pay attention to the auctioneer.
Ah, thanks Snowline. I’ve been seeing the Two Horses One Money ad for a while now and I figured it was just some guy who didn’t understand English that well. I’ve only been to one horse auction and it creeped me out.
I also don’t understand people who post horse ads on CL without photos or pertinent info. Basically “I have this here trail horse for sell, sorry no photos but may be I can put some up later.” It’s not like you have to reserve the ad space! Don’t waste my time with your useless ads, idiot people.
Put me on the list of people who hate seeing “colt” used instead of “foal”. Colt is gender, for most English based people. A filly colt is a hermaphrodite. And Phillies refers to a baseball team from PHILadelphia, people!!
The half sibling thing is in large part a TB thing; it relies in part on the fact that a nice stallion is a nice stallion, but may have 400 foals on the ground, half or more complete crap. In TB circles, you know a stallion, you know what he’s putting into the equation. Knowing that THE MARE is a black type producer makes another foal more valuable since you’ll know the sire (new sire than the black type sibling’s sire) And what the mare’s genetic “half” is . Whereas knowing two foals had the same sire out of different mares doesn’t allow you to know the quality of the mares, if that makes sense… Works in a system where the stallions are all pretty much known.
Similarly, the fear with AI was overuse (bad enough as it is) of certain stallions or lines, which theoretically reduces genetic divergence and encourages genetic defects (notice TBs don’t have HERDA, HYPP, and that other one, just crappy feet
This is a scientific thing debated elsewhere.
MORE IMPORTANTLY, from the breeders view, their foals are more valuable if the stallion can only make 20, 40, 65 a year, than if they AI 300 or more in a year. See the reasoning? If they could/would limit total registered foals per stallion a year, they could in fact increase diversity by allowing AI, since you wouldn’t have to ship the mare all over to get the lines you wanted…
And the own son thing is a stock breed thing, and explained above in another comment, because some people see a name on a pedigree, and don’t really specify how far back you have to look to find it!
I am Boyfriend
One more aspect of AI breeding– it can be mishandled. In fact, I would go so far as to say it is OFTEN mishandled.
I worked at a breeding farm that used both live cover and AI. The process used for AI was intensely focused on sterilization and cleanliness– not an easy task when you are trying to create life, since sperm won’t survive a sterile environment. One little drop of soap left in the wrong place will result in a ruined AI experience. Likewise, one little spec of dirt pulled into the mare’s uterus can result in infection and degradation of the uterine wall quality.
We were meticulous. Many other breeders are NOT. Each year we received mares for breeding who were considered ‘problems’. Most that had infections or a poor grade uturus had been bred AI before. It’s true that such breeding is safe when done correctly. But so is live cover, with much less risk of mistake or accident. Yes, AI allows you to breed mares to stallions who live a distance away from each other. Then again, that simply allows for the ‘Monday Horses’ mentality of needing a ‘come from far away’ horse.
Frankly, we simply need to breed less. We don’t need AI, and AI doesn’t result in magically improved breeds. It just results in more babies. We even have easily available frozen semen in the world of dairy goats– yet over and over, the same problems show up in goats, unsolved and unfixed. The problem isn’t the genetic pool of the animals– it’s the genetic pool of the people who breed the animals.
Wow, you quoted Jean Slaughter Doty! You’re my official hero for the day!!
I am Boyfriend
So, if my tri-colored colt gets gilded is he suddenly a palamino?
YES!!!
What did happen to grammar anyway – “needs trimmed”. To be, folks, not just a phrase from Shakespeare.
Too funny. My husband does this and it drives me nuts!!! “Um, the dishes need washed.” What??? Really?” They need washed?1
I have to semi-defend some of the things you point out as being incorrect. Here in the “old west”, the “old-timers” refer to everything as a colt. To specify sex, they refer to a male as a “horse colt” and a female as a “filly colt.” This is common terminology with some of the older set. I am not saying it is correct, but I understand what people are saying when they use these terms .
As far as tri-colored goes….just because a horse is a bay paint does not mean it will be tri-colored. Depending on the pattern, the areas where black would be present (the legs. mane, tail and forelock) may be masked by the paint horse’s white markings. For instance, a medicine cap paint may not exhibit any of the markings typical of the agouti gene Therefore, a horse who is genetically bay may appear to be brown and white. When you don’t have a photo, referring to your bay paint as a tri-color can be helpful. I am not saying it is necessary to use that terminology or why it is only used when referring to a bay horse, because the same results can occur on dun, grulla, and so on. But it does happen that a horse with an agouti gene is patterned so that is does not display it.
If broken English and poor grammar aren’t bad enough when trying to market (or brag) a horse. The pictures of some of those poor pitiful things says a thousand words. I cannot for the life of me know what are they thinking when their ad states how WOW the horse is, has this fantastic pedigree, awesome color, unmatched talent and more more more! While they show a shitty black and white picture of a horse standing in mud up to his knees, covered in dirt, grazing in a field, standing in a stall, his back end, up close head shot, and the list goes on and on… and has a price tag of somewhere in the neighborhood of an accomplished show barn athlete. WTF? I don’t have to wonder very long why I keep my distance from horse people. There are just too few that really have a clue.
This one is from craigslist in Eugene. If you can’t spell it, you shouldn’t have bred it. Poor fugly filly.
She is 1/2 kigger 1/2 saddlebred. Not worked with much but is very frindly. She will lead ok now with a little perswasion.
What’s a Kigger?
I believe Kigger should be Kieger, as in mustang. Half mustang, half ASB, that must be one hell of a cross. Who in their right mind would do such a thing????
That would be a Kiger, as in a mustang of Spanish origin that typically has significant dun factor. An odd mix in my opinion. Most Kiger fans are pretty fanatical about it so maybe they were hoping to find one of them to buy her.
Or maybe they really meant a Tigger, you know…their tops are made out of rubber, their bottoms are made out of spring, they’re bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun…
Sort of off-topic, but I found this gem while perusing CL. http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/grd/1535161049.html
That is NOT a PAINT- it is a dapple gray… and for the love of God, not one but TWO helmetless children on the poor thing.
Before you jump on the ignorance of others it’s always good to have a clue yourself. Paint is a breed, not a color. She looks like she’d be a very gentle family horse.
She could still be a Paint horse. Paint just means she has papers with the APHA, Pinto would mean she has color visible. A gray horse can have color genes underneath that are obscured by the gray – not the best for breeding color, but she would still get the papers.
Just because it doesn’t exhibit paint markings doesn’t mean it is not a registered paints. I don’t think it makes sense to have greys in the breeding pool of colored breeds, but that doesn’t mean doesn’t happen.
One of my biggest pet peeves are Greys in Appaloosa. I think they shouldn’t be register-able. I don’t care how good the horse is, Apps are a color breed, and greys will loose their markings to the greying process over time. Breeding Appaloosas should have the total package; great conformations, proven show record, sweet temper AND color. Otherwise, please don’t breed your App. I also don’t like all the crossbreeding to QHs, TB and Arabians. The color pool is being diluted and you end up with basically poorly marked or solid QH type Apps, or TB type Apps. The Arabian crosses don’t tend to look much like Arabians so this doesn’t bother me as much.
It’s possible for a horse to be grey in color, but carry a spot pattern. Looking at the photos of this mare, she appears to have at one time had spots or a pattern of some sort. But, after greying out she appears to be all dapples.
I’ve seen a Spotted Saddle Horse that had been ‘formerly’ spotted, but he carried the dominant grey gene.. his dark areas had greyed out to white. So, no more spots.
Well, she’s registered as a Paint… what her actual color is is gray, base coat undeterminable…. what markings she may have under the graying, or if she is simply a solid (breeding stock) paint we can’t really see. They are using paint as Paint, the breed, not referring to her color (which is more correctly and universally pinto, since all marked Paints are pintos, but not all pintos are Paints)… they actually don’t mention her color at all…
It could be a paint, just solid.
Just saw a good one, araibian geldine. I also found 2 AQUA registered mares. Not sure if I know what registry that is if anyone will enlighten me. And to top it off, “I HAVE HER COGGINS & HEALTH BUT THEY ARE EXPIRED.” Is there a need to shout this? And what good is expired coggins papers, and they have her health!?
I was told a long time ago that an “own son” was sired by the stallion out of the sire’s dam. As in they bred the sire to his dam and the resulting foal was an “own son” or “own daughter”.
Maybe we could argue “line bred” and “imbred” for awhile or do they not use those terms any more?
Is there not an incredible amount of bad grammar and spelling going on these days even in ads and the newspaper and business signs?
And Frank McCoy told me that it is a “stallion” not a ” stud”. The Real McCoy was a stallion and he stood at stud. It does sound more classy.
My 2 cents.
Argue on…
Yep, that’s one of my peeves. A stallion stands at stud at a stud. The location is the stud.
And the one that really drives me nuts, we’re studding him out. Sounds like your his pimp.
You’re.
Proofread BEFORE submitting.
Great guest blog. I think my number one pet peeve is conformation misspelled as confirmation. Gah.
I saw a “for sell add” recently that had almost every misused or misspelled word in it. Main and tale (seriously), gate (gait), sattle (saddle)……….. I wish I had saved it. The ad was so poorly written, it was hilarious in a pathetic kind of way.
My biggest pet peeve (being the owner of a TB/Belgian cross) is people who refer to their Belgians or Belgian Warmbloods as Belgiums or Belgium Warmbloods. The country is Belgium. People or animals, etc from Belgium are Belgian.
its not phonics BUT please enough already with “good mind” . if the horse didnt have a good mind,why would you want to buy it. he has a good mind…STOP
As for the “own son” and “own daughter” terms. The way it was explained to me is that it denotes a foal that was bred by the stallion’s owner and is also out of a mare that he/she also owns. It is supposed to help denote quality in the foal’s breeding. It is in owner’s best interests to have a quality broodmare band for use with the stallion, (since he/she won’t be getting any money from stud fees for the foals it produces). Any money from those foals will have to come from sales or competition wins.
Regardless of one’s views on the worthiness of the illiterate to publish Craig’s List ads, or of speculations concerning the specific regions of the woods these reviled ad-writers might inhabit, this post proves a long-established Internet theorem: that posts on the subject of spelling, grammar, or usage invariably contain errors in spelling, grammar, and usage.
Also, the notion that female genes (to the exclusion of male genes) govern phenotype is inaccurate.
Do you have a citation for equal gender contribution to phenotype? Everything I’ve read says the opposite, but I’d like to see both sides of the debate.
Well, it’s basic Mendelian stuff. If offspring only ever resembled their dams, why would anybody bother breeding to expensive stallions when any spavined old nag would do? Which is not to say that some alleles, such as the allele for hemophilia, are not X-linked.
But the thing is with horses, vets who study husbandry find that the dam’s quality has much more of an effect on the quality of the offspring. For instance, I linked an article above where one vet found that daughters of good racehorses were far more likely to be parents of future good racehorses than the sons. If we were going by straight Mendelean genetics, that wouldn’t be the case. Cursory overview science classes use very simplified models that leave out a lot- so if your science education is conflicting with reality, reality is not wrong.
It’s like those models of the atom you probably drew… electrons don’t have neat, defined orbits, but thinking of them that way makes learning about chemical bonds infinitely easier. If you were actually trying to study atomic structure, that model would be no help at all.
“Own son” means that the offspring (sp. colt) is a part of the sire’s farm’s breeding program. Meaning, the offspring is out of a mare that is a part of the stallion’s farm’s breeding program, as opposed to an outside mare.
my fave is “guilding.” I’ve seen this misspelling more times than I care to count.
I bought a “guilding” this past year. There were so many typos in the ad I almost didn’t go. He has turned out to be one of the best horses I’ve ever ridden! I could have missed out on a “grate” horse!
Just for the record he’s well bred, extremely athletic, sound and double registered. He’s a keeper for sure!
Yeah! And what about those people who have no idea where to start and end a paragraph!? Everyone’s an expert.
I do have an acquaintance who advertises his “well bread horses”. Mmm! Bread horses!
Just today I saw an ad for a “5 year old 1/4 horse.”
1/4 horse…and 3/4…..what?
Saw a palonino for sale too.
I don’t know why it’s so hard for people to learn proper terminology and spelling. Heck subscribe to any horse magazine for a year and you’ll learn the words for body parts, equipment, colors, genders, and everything! They even have books at the library that teach you all of that too, for free!
Shortened version of Quarter Horse perhaps? I have “My 1/4horse is smarter than your honor student” on my license plate holder. Quarter Horse wouldn’t fit.
My father loved to tease me when I was a kid. He’d say “that horse of yours is 1/4 horse and 3/4 mule!”
I admit that I am guilty of the “pasturns”. I have been learned.
Hehe, I love when I see people put “bread” instead of “breed” or “bred”. “She’s an appaloosa bread”. Wow…spotted bread. Not sure if that’s healthy. Or, better yet! “She’s a green appaloosa bread”.
I didn’t know about the part of half-brothers; I’ve always been told that horses could be half-brother/sister because they share the same stallion. Very good to know!
Oh! So here’s something about phillies. My fiance is not a horse person. He works at a casino and seen one of the races Mine That Bird was running in and asked me what a philly was. I told him to stick to computers.
I read, somewhere, that breeding a mare with a bad temperament will make her behave better. I was ten and thought that sounded a little stupid. My first thought was “Oh, probably some old fashioned remedy when people relied on horses for transportation” but even that doesn’t make sense! Who the crap made that up?! A mare with a bad temperament will probably still have a bad temperament while she’s pregnant (if not worse) and while she still has the foal at her side. Oy…
Tri-colored! Haha! I actually seen that one, too, in another book (maybe the same one about breeding a bad tempered mare) and it had a picture of the horse. It was a bay tobiano. I swear I looked at that picture for ages trying to figure out how it was tri-colored when I knew darn well that it was a bay tobiano. Tri-colored would mean a horse with white, chestnut, and black markings and I have never seen one like that.
Sorry for the ramblings, by the way.
I did learn a few things, though, which is always good.
That was one I was going to mention, “spaded” their cat or dog…ouch! The other is breeded. What the he&& is breeded? Personally, if I can’t spell the word I look it up in a dictionary! I right a blog from our rescue cats perspective and have to make an effort to mispell and misuse words. As a neighbor once said “you gots a good edjimacation”.
I don’t know why some people put horrible pictures of themselves on the net. Here’s a Fugly woman covered in tatoos in shorts on a mare bareback with a little boy (looks about 2) infront of her NAKED! Pore kid, he must have been picking hair out of his a$$ for days lol! Oh and both have no shoes or helmets.
http://grandeprairie.kijiji.ca/c-pets-livestock-for-sale-mare-for-sale-to-perfect-home-only-W0QQAdIdZ178490175
Welsh pony turning 2 in April. I emailed he’s a stud. Has had young children led around on him. LET HIM GROW UP AND GELD HIM. I live pretty close to Grand Prairie and think that he is adorable, not stud quality but I am considering buying him, gelding him and letting him grow up a bit. The price is a bit high for the area, bit I think hes cute and will be in need of a lesson pony that size in a few years as the pony I have now i getting up there in age.
http://grandeprairie.kijiji.ca/c-pets-livestock-for-sale-PRICE-REDUCED-Purebreed-Welsh-W0QQAdIdZ177144202#
Buying meat horses…yuck like the meat buyers can’t find enough of them at the auctions! They have orders for broke horses as well…like anyone who gives sh!t about their horse would sell them to a meat buyer to rehome!
http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/c-pets-livestock-for-sale-HORSES-WANTED-W0QQAdIdZ178048235
Good morning , hey I have some news on the Dawn Hahler case… I got an interesting call today . I would like to hear the other side of the story, I only know dawns side of the story, she is on her way to Texas now. anyone with facts can e mail me.
kristentorkington03@yahoo.com
Sooo.. maybe people who ‘sale’ their horse also ‘gift’ their spouse with lots of stuff on their anniversaries.
My gelding is an ‘own son’ or his sire. He was a surprise, actually, and is his sire’s only get. Fortunately, my boy isn’t *too* fugly!
ANother one that bugs me, nothing to do with breeding, is ‘tom thumb SNAFFLE’. A snaffle is a bit with no leverage, no shafts. How can a tom thumb be a snaffle?
I’m a new horseowner shopping for my first pieces of tack… And I admit I don’t know anything about bits. (Past horses I’ve ridden belonged to others who would just give me that horse’s usual tack, so I never had to know what was what.)
Can anyone recommend a good, CORRECT guide to bits? I’m nervous googling because I don’t know what information is correct and not cruel.
(PS, my horse is a young Paso Fino currently using a snaffle)
I’m so uneducated about this that I don’t even know what a “Tom Thumb” is…
This is a Tom Thumb:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/3109ua5HJfL._SL500_AA280_.jpg
it’s a horrible cross between a snaffle bit and a curb bit – Nutcracker effect + leverage = (in my opinion) a cruel bit
I know how you feel about bits, and my advice would be to ask a vet or a trainer whose advice you trust.
A “Tom Thumb” is a bit with a very short shank. My AQHA gelding LOVED his “Tom Thumb” Pelham bit. ;o)
Myler Bits has a rather good book about bits called A Whole Bit Better that explains the action of various bits quite well, although it is clearly biased towards Myler Bits, which may or may not irritate you. It is available through their website:
http://www.mylerbitsusa.com
That being said, if your horse is going well in a snaffle I think I would leave that situation alone.
I think they mean snaffle to indicate it is jointed. I’ve always thought of snaffles as jointed bits, not necessary without leverage.
A Snaffle bit is a bit that has direct contact with the mouth and can be either broken or straight. The rein will connect to the mouth piece with a loose ring, D-ring or secured ring. A curb bit has a piece that will offset the rein from the mouth piece, which can be solid or broken.
According to the Certified Horsemanship Association manual.
Hi Walkonaire,
This confused me for a long time too, until I realised that both the english people and the western people both have a bit they refer to as a “Tom Thumb”. Obviously you are familiar with the western leverage style tom thumb bit. The english bit is like a regular loose ring snaffle, with no leverage, only it has bars between the mouth piece and the rings, presumably to aid with steering? It is somewhat similar to an FM snaffle, only with shorter bars and a slightly different shape.
Cheers,
S
Haha! This is fun! And before anyone informs me that I’m a member of the Annoying Snob Spelling Police, no need to bother–heard it for the 100th time already today, from my boss.
Just cruising my local Craigslist for 15 minutes today, I came up with the following gems:
“gamming lessons”
“Breaders trust nominated”
“has some lung training”
“APAH mare”
“visit our web sight”
“local hay–$5.50 per bail”
Or, how about a cow? There’s a “Herford Heffer” (I actually hope somebody buys her, they’re selling her as a pet and she seems sweet.)
And my special prize goes to…and of course it’s a yearling…
“My 19 month old son can sit, and ride around on her, with nothing on.”
Wow, ease up folks. I had a 14.2hh fugliest of all fuglies years ago that beat the pants off of big, beautiful warmbloods (provincial champion in his eventing category). He had heart, he had personality, and I loved him. But he would be very much defined as a trainwreck in this blog if his picture was posted.
So what? Call me crazy, but the pillar of this blog is promoting RESPONSIBILITY.
Don’t take things so personally and be happy.
“ahughes798 says: Well, isn’t Ms. Guest Blogger a snobbish crank!!!!!!!!!!!! A horse doesn’t have to have papers to be good. I can’t spell misspell. I guess that makes me a backwoods moron?”
Okay, but you can probably use spell check on your computer? And google words if you’re not quite sure if you know the correct meaning? If you’re going to sell something in a professional manner, then I think you should hold yourself to the same standards that any other profession would expect. If I wanted to work in sales, and I sent a company a resume full of mispelled words and incorrectly used terms, they’re going to read it, have a good laugh, call me a retard, etc (much like how we respond to those horse ads). I don’t think there’s anything “snobbish crank-y” about someone expecting a potential business partner to actually know what they’re selling and present themselves and their product in a professional and knowledgable manner.
I 100% agree that there are talented horses out there without papers. I’ve owned a few. I used to have a big beautiful unregistered TB gelding (I repeat, GELDING) who was built like a tank but moved like a ballet dancer and excelled in dressage. Everyone loved him. People were always offering to buy him. No clue who was in his bloodlines or anything about him. Every rule has a few exceptions. Still doesn’t change the fact that there are way too many fugly grade horses being passed around out there and there is no obligation to breed a horse just because it’s “so sweet tempered” or “really big” or “pretty color” or “not sound for riding”. Nobody is saying that every unregistered horse is completely worthless. They’re just saying, for the love of all things holy, don’t make any more!
I think love you
awwww
glad to see someone likes my opinions, because I’m always willing to share them! 
I’ve also seen Thoroughbred spelled Thorobread. Really people?
horses who are out of the same mare tend to resemble each other, in phenotype and ability.
I’d have to argue that genetically, that isn’t really true. Mom and dad contribute 50% of the DNA. Except the mare may have more influence on two counts though:
1) mitochondrial DNA (not completely understood)
2) she raises the foal, so temperament wise
Funny post though.
I used to think the stallion had little to do with the foal’s temperament and behavior but since getting back into horses this past 12 years, I’ve seen foals by stallions known to be “gentle souls” out of dams with “a more than a little pepper” and the foals have been very laid back and “biddable.”
Personally if I had a mare that was difficult, I would think twice about breeding her because she might become even MORE difficult, though there the belief that motherhood settles down a lot of them.
Speaking of another “belief” in the breeding area, I’ve known some dog and horse breeders who believe a female is “sullied” and not fit for breeding EVER if she has bred by a stud outside her own breed — like the Rottweiler bitch is not good for breeding Rotts because she had a litter by a male from some other breed — OR if the female is bred (either accidentally or on purpose) at a young age — as a yearling or two-year-old, for example. This was the belief of an owner who specialized in Arabians horses.
Have relatives in the Dog show biz – yes! BYB, and I’ve heard that too. That a bitch is “ruined” by an unplanned mating.
Does have a germ of truth to it, certain species of mammal can retain sperm for future use, I think rabbits being one. (Really need to google this to see if I am completely mixed up and thinking of fish or molluscs or something)
I have to agree about the terminology. Having purchased several pleasure bred horses nothing is more annoying than seeing “son of X” when in reality “X” is four-generations back. In this market though one can see why some one would be tempted to say that because some ACTUALLY bred-in-the-purple horses are going for very low prices, especially weanlings and yearlings. That being said though, that is no guarantee that those horses are pretty.
That being said, there are some REALLY nice horses out there that are registered but don’t have any notibles in three generations. There was one horse at my boarding place that was a halter/ranch cross that was tall, gorgeous and a really nice mover. Until his utterly moronic owner sent him to a place that was more or less a field with barbed wire where the horses were checked only every other day. Unsuprisingly he sliced his leg open on the wire and became “pasture-sound” at the ripe old age of four. *Other people!* Why must they be this stupid?
Can someone please explain to me what “14.5″ hands is supposed to mean? A hand is 4 inches people, always. When I see this I think 1) They obviously don’t have a stick or even a height/weight tape, which you can get at any feed store for like $2. 2) They don’t know a hand is 4 inches. I know itty bitty Pony Clubbers who know this. What I want to know is: do they mean the horse is 15 hands or almost 14.1. Do they think the .5 means 1/2″? This actually matters to some people, the hunter pony crowd, for example. But mainly it just shows me that the seller is ignorant to very basic horse knowledge. Here’s my soapbox:if every horse owner, or anyone involved in horses, would read the USPC Manual of Horsemanship, D Level, the basic care and knowledge of horses in the world would be far better.
I was taking graduate courses at San Diego State University a hundred years ago, and one of my professors — in the English Department — said that he believed all the rules of grammar, spelling and syntax were a waste of time because if the person could communicate his or her message, who cared about the rules.
Sadly, his philosophy appears to have taken wing because so many people get diplomas from schools and colleges and are barely able to read them.
I knew a 4.0 scholar, a graduate of Oregon State University, who got a full ride courtesy of the United States Navy to pursue a doctorate in Oceanography, and he could hardly spell his own name.
That said, I believe that a well written, thoroughly proofread (spell check is NOT always your friend ;o), and accurately presented piece of writing, regardless of its intent or purpose, is going to be take more seriously by those of us who can read and comprehend more quickly when the English language is respected and used appropriately and accordingly.
;oD
See? Case in point in my message above. Spell check did NOT suggest “taken” instead of the “take” in my post above. And our eyes “see” what we think SHOULD be there instead of what is.
I continue to disagree about papers. I also disagree about show performance.
If you are breeding show jumpers, then breed to horses that are good at show jumping.
If you are breeding trail horses, then breed to horses that are *proven on the trail*. There is nothing wrong with that, and there’s no point breeding your trail mare to a top show stallion if you only want to trail ride. A top endurance stallion, maybe, but one of the first rules of breeding is ‘like to like’.
I’ve met purebred mares I would never, ever breed and grade mares I’d take a foal out of like a shot.
I wonder how many of the fugly QHs out there are fugly because they were bred from a cross between working and halter bloodlines and thus, despite being in the same breed, were *not* bred like to like.
This ad is a real treat!! Bad grammar and a ponzi scheme on a poor little filly all rolled into one. Well worth the read to see what a deal this guy has for you.
http://www.horseville.com/php/view.php?id=237742
omg, I told my parents I didn’t need a legitimate job where I had to do actual work 5 days or more a week! I could just sell ‘shares’ of my fugly horse!
Yeah, that guy’s ass is out, what a joke.
Do you suppose this lil’ filly tap dances on cross ties, too??? What a putz!
Uh, I think this ad clearly proves that just because a horse is registered still does not mean that you should breed it. This filly is registered and its obvious that her parents had poor conformation and clearly they should not have been breed to produce such a sight.
Maybe if this filly was in the right hands NOW while she is young, a farrier might be able to help her out. But by looking at the background scenery and the ad itself……her current owners will do nothing to help this poor girl!
Oh…..my…..god…… I am struck with internal conflict here. Half of my brain thinks “please don’t let some poor sap out there fall for this and sponsor a pony for their kid’s birthday” and the other half thinks “hot damn, why didn’t I think of it first?” jk.
Seriously though… I can’t imagine anyone buying shares of a horse that is openly admitting to not being fancy and not planning to see any fancy trainers and is currently for sale for a whopping $500. Wow.
HaHa- what a hoot! I am going to have to try that. I have 20 horses – does anyone want to buy a part share in them? You may have the front parts – that need feed- I am glad to deal with the back end and all that entails!
WAAAY up there someone mentioned that they purchased a horse that “had” papers but the previous owner didn’t want to pay more to get them. Ok there are 3 possible scenerios here.
A. The horse NEVER got the papers, the breeding report was never turned in and paid for, etc. and now that she is an older horse it will cost an arm and a leg plus genetic testing to finish the process, etc. That I can see happening but the it is still possible to get the papers if you want, even later in life. Even if the parents are deceased most registries will allow DNA testing off registered siblings, etc.
B. Whoever sold the previous owner the mare tried to make him/her pay MORE than the asking price to get the papers. If that is the case it is against AQHA regulation (and most other breed registries) and so long as you have a bill of sale for your horse you can call up the registry and collect the papers on your mare.
C. You were “had” and the seller wanted to make her unregistered horse more sellable by telling you she wasn’t a Backyard bred POS.
Point being, there is no such thing as a horse that used to have papers but doesn’t anymore. Either they are registrable, registered, or grade. End of story.
On a second note- FHOTD and even the guest bloggers here have not said (and never say) that a grade horse is not worth owning and that a grade horse cannot be a good horse. They are saying that a grade horse shouldn’t be bred. They are also saying that if your horse has papers and is not within the top percentage of it’s breed DON’T BREED THAT ONE EITHER!! Of course there are papered horses out there with either poor conformation or poor personalities and the breeders that are breeding those horses are just as bad as the people who breed well-mannered grade horses. They are both flooding the market with less than quality horses during a time when rescues are over-run, horses are being turned loose with the mustangs (like they need any help with overpopulation), horses are being put-down because their feed bills are to expensive, etc.
I am always the first person to say (and I think Fugly will agree with me here) that a grade horse should NEVER be punished because his breeder was a BYB ASS. If you don’t compete in breed shows and you find a grade horse that fits your needs by all means BUY HIM/HER! give them a great home! They could possibly be the greatest horse you have ever owned! Just don’t breed them!
I have now seen the term “quater horse” in ads often enough that I no longer believe it’s a typo. Could these sellers define “quater”? Would the seller tell me the horse was bred to run “quater” miles?
Oh lord, don’t talk genetics.
I had a mare who only threw colored colts and solid fillies. 12 babies, and that was her pattern every time. All of her colts played with their tongues. None of her fillies did. All of her babies had her back legs (she was a little sickle/cow hocked). I’ve seen the female of any given species stamp baby after baby with the exact same characteristics– I’ve even seen a mare create a visual clone of herself– and she was a sorrel overo Paint! Her baby was an exact match in build and color. Daddy was nowhere to be found in the mix.
The stallion I used to own gave every single one of his babies a snip on their lower lip. ALL of them.
Genetics works really well on paper, but it just doesn’t work that way in real life.
Do you know what the newest argument given to me was when I pointed out a color conundrum in a mare and foal combo?
Genetic Expert: “Well then, the mare has to be such and such a color.”
Me: “But she isn’t that color, she is THIS color.”
Genetics Expert: “She may LOOK like you say she looks, but she is really GENETICALLY a different color!!”
Oh yea… right. How could I miss that?
Was this an actual Genetics Expert, or an Internet Genetics Expert?
I think a lot of the problem is people remember Punnet Squares from high school biology, but haven’t looked at all the other cool things that science has discovered about genes in the meantime. Heck, when I was in high school my textbook said that mitochondrial DNA didn’t do anything. People also tend to forget that basic science education chooses what theories or models it teaches based on both their ability to predict reality and how easy they are to learn. We don’t learn Newton’s laws of gravity because they represent the embodiment of what scientists know about attraction between masses, we learn them because they’re good enough for Earth physics.
…You’re talking genetics
.
Which color conundrum were you looking at? Do you have the pedigree/colors of the horses involved? Your GE is correct – many genes for colors can be “hidden” under other colors. A black horse can be bred to another black horse and end up with a chestnut baby – the black horses were Ee, one black gene covering one sorrel gene, and baby got both ee’s for black/sorrel, so the color that was hidden by the more dominant black showed up in the baby since he didn’t have the switch that turned that off. There was a case a few years back of a mixed race couple who had identical twins – except one girl was very black and one girl was very white! One girl got the black skin genes and the other got the white skin genes, but they’re both still their parent’s daughters. The “cloned” baby you had may have inherited Daddy’s spleen, or hair texture, or bone density promoter gene, or just mostly non-visible characteristics (or the stallion and mare were close visibly anyway).
Patterns get a little weird, since it’s not just “on/off” genes, it’s also “how much” and “where”, then feed and womb environment can affect how they’re presented. The way that chromosomes are split during conception could explain why your mare had such clear differences between colts and fillies – the color genes were in the right place for combining with the Y chromosomes but not for the X chromosomes, basically, or the promoters that said “make this visible” didn’t make it with her color genes when mixing and splitting. Her fillies might have the genes for color, just not the phenotype. It happens a lot with overo patterns, since they can be expressed as a sock and a snip to nearly white, as many stock horse breeders can tell you!
There’s a ton more to it than just what you see, and a lot of strange things can happen in a large and complicated genome. Genetics researchers know a lot about the base colors, since many of them can be tracked through pedigrees and phenotypes, and they’re working hard on the patterns and variants.
Oh, and the sorrel overo mare having a sorrel overo foal? Sorrel is two recessive genes, ee in genetics nomenclature, so one base color gene came from the dam and one from the sire. Sorrel is generally the lowest on the chart, so any other base color would cover it up. Overo patterns are dominant, so she was Oo, one dominant and one recessive. Two oo would be no color, and OO is LWO baby. The mare generally can only give one half of the chromosome, so Daddy did give her something for her color
.
I agree with you on this one. The breeder I worked with had a grulla mare, bred by a palomino stallion, deliver a cremello filly. AQHA sent her papers back and said, “This cannot be, this color is not possible from this breeding.” Yet, there she stood…..cremello as all get out. We took many photos, sent them in with hairs, and what do you know, they registered her cremello. That same mare always produced outgoing “born broke” foals. Every one of them was bold and friendly even though the mare was a real witch.
I also have a grey mare who produces foals the color of the stallion. She has never produced a grey. They all have her enormous “mule ears” too.
Genetics works really well on paper, but mother nature has a sense of humor and just when we think we have it figured out, she chuckles and throws a curve.
Definitely possible, as the mare is grulla: black based with a dun gene. And since the cream gene “hides” under black, presto: cremello foal! I wonder if the foal carries dun, too….
My friend has a blue roan pinto Mini stallion that carries cream. He produces a ton of buckskins and palominos. I have one of his daughters and I’m pretty sure she also carries roan, but it’s hard to see on the buckskin, since she also carries sooty…. ah, genetics!
12 is not a statistically significant number when it comes to genetics. You need at least 100. Or bite the bullet and get her tested.
Same for the owner of the grey mare. Every time you breed her to a non-grey stallion there’s a 50% chance of the foal going grey. All greys are born a solid color, BTW, and some don’t show signs of greying until they’re 3 or 4.
I’ll also bet the farm that “dun” mare that produced a cremello foal when bred to a palomino stallion is genetically a buckskin. Many confuse the two colors, including some pony registries. A real dun bred with a palomino can NOT produce a cremello foal. There is DNA testing available for both dun and cream dilutes.
Actually, the “conformation” vs. “confirmation” error is usually just a keyboarding error since “i” & “o” are side-by-side, so I wouldn’t read too much into that typo personally.
Wish you were correct in that optimistic interpretation but I doubt it.
You’d actually be surprised how often errors like that occur. I see often on message boards, and I do it all the time myself.
often see…fricken’ dyslexia…
If the writer makes the confirmation error and has written a good paragraph or two full of correct nomenclature and valid information I would cut them slack on this one.
I skimmed the comments, but wanted to say, an “Own” son describes a colt out of a ranch’s or farm’s program. (Yes, I know this part was already addressed) however, a “Direct” son describes a colt out of an “outside” mare (one not owned by the stallion owner).
That said, great guest blog, this has always been one of my favorites!
*waves Hi to FTFOTB and FHOTD!*
To me “Own Son” is like “Greenbroke” You always have to ask, ask, ask. Around here it mostly meant that the horse is A) ACTUALLY BY the stallion. However, it also can mean B) “Grandsire and Sire = THE SAME HORSE” or C) “Bred by the people who OWN both parents”. In any case, if B or C is true, then you can assume A is always true, and that can really help when weed out the adds around here where a horse “IS BY” any stallion with any reputation anywhere on their papers. You have to ask further questions if you are absolutely against “inbreeding” or if you’re looking for the quality offspring of an actual “breeding program”.
Another thing to think about with “half-sibling” is the role of sex-related genes. The mare carries and always passes on an X gene. There may be no counterpart for some genes on her colt because he carries the smaller Y gene. Example: color blindness in people. Therefore, sex-based characteristics of the mare will be more strongly expressed on her colts than her fillies. I tend to notice greater diversity in a stallions progeny based on gender; there is a greater range of influence in his colts, and smaller range of influence in his fillies.
Also “Tri-Coloured” doesn’t bug me so much when it’s used to describe a light bay pinto; it tells me the horse has black stockings/mane, red body colour and white. I’m a little iffy when it’s used to describe a zebra dun; black and red mane, dark stockings, and white. I twitch a little when it’s used to describe a flaxen chesnut pinto; blond mane, red body and white. I go into convulsions when it’s used to describe a pinto of any colour who is going GRAY. Fine, get rid of the term altogether, just please don’t advertise your black/white/gray pintos as tri-coloured.
I forgot to mention; I’ve never seen “Own Son” used where it meant D) Is the ONLY colt the stallion ever sired, but it would still stand to reason that A is still always true.
Hi Fugly,
What do you think of this stunt? Stupid macho cowboy crap, IMHO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE3cqnw_Pp0&feature=rec-fresh+div-r-5-HM
Same dumb guys.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PATWC2eTNcQ&feature=related
Lots more by the same idiots if you click on their name. Sometimes I wish youtube had never been invented. *sigh*
Just because a horse has papers doesn’t make them any better of a horse. I have a very nice looking unpapered appendix mare, her only real conformation flaw is that shes a bit over the knees. She’s smart and picks up new things amazingly fast, and she is very cordinated and athletic. I won’t ever breed her, just because she is unregistered but she’s still a great horse. While on the other hand I know someone with a paint mare that has about every conformation flaw in the book. She comes from good breeding though, and unfortunatly they plan to breed her. She’s as uncordinated as they come and isn’t really ever going to make anything other than a good beginers horse and trail horse. not really cut out to be the barrel horse her owner wants her to be.
Did anyone mention this one yet? I see it all the time where I live.
“Belgium” gelding or mare for sale. Belgium is a country, a Belgian is a horse! (or a person from Belgium, but I doubt that they are selling one of those!)
And farrier. How hard is that? I always see ferrier or furrier.
And Crystal Rivers, subject of a fugly blog last month is STILL using the word “clinique” for the word “clinic” on her website, even after it was pointed out here and she read it.
I am guilty of saying “own son of.” Now that you brought it up I don’t know why…..shoot me now.
I will say, I bought a well manured horse… it took me 7 hours straight to brush it out too. : /
Funny you should talk about this today…
I came across this ad just yesterday and had to bang my head against the wall. Thought I ‘d share:
Hi there i am selling my 5 year old male gelding.
He is green broke and sooo well temperd he is very easy too work with
Last summer was training him to be a barrol raceing horse
I love Kit-kat to so much and i want him to go to a home that treats him great
The reason i have to sell him is i am pregnet and my parents want to move from here into the city and i can not offerd bording for him.
If you are intrested please call ***
Charm:
Just because you don’t understand genetics, doesn’t mean they don’t apply. Genetics is a pretty well fleshed out science, at least in regards to things like color.
Random chance is a big player in foals. Just like it’s very possible to flip a coin and hit tails 10x in a row, it doesn’t actually change the odds on each successive flip. The human mind is built to recognize patterns so much so that it is really good at finding patterns where none exist. This is where science is so important and pulls away from “magical thinking”.
Additionally, it is possible to have a horse that appears to be closer to one particular genetic combination for color, and actually be another. Like it or not, color is a big factor in many people’s decision to breed or buy pleasure and show animals, especially between equivalent individuals, and it is therefore important for people to represent this information accurately for breeding individuals.
Chestnuts that look bay or black, cream champagnes that looked perlino/cremello, seal brown that looked black, and sabino that looks roan or overo…I’ve seen them and more. Fortunately, your entire discussion with the genetics expert can probably be settled by a $25 test that doesn’t make either of you get agitated, and the topic fairly moot.
I LOVE this post!!!! Do you ever read the ads the way that they are spelled and hear it in your head as the accent that probably goes along with it? I agree completely to the “half-sibling” terminology. No-one cares if it has the same sire. The mare makes all the difference, and I don’t care what anyone says to the contrary. I can tell you with full confidence which mares’ babies will be tongue-suckers, or the fillies will be tough, the colts easy, etc if I have started their babies… no matter who daddy may be. Plus, any big-name stallion will make a crap baby if he has been bred to a crap mare.
And, Walkonaire, a Tom Thumb is a snaffle. A curb bit must have a curb strap or chain that applies pressure to the curb groove. A shank does not make a curb. Now, as to the intended action and purpose of a Tom Thumb, you got me! The shank seems useless without a curb chain.
A nice blog that made me laugh. Always, I am so frusturated when people claim that their horse is 14.5 (etc). A very basic bit of information that I would think all horse owners would be aware of the correct terminology.
Off topic but its people like this who make others think it’s ok to ride a yearling. Most likely to show in the 2 yo futurities…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdLHt_CKUT4&feature=channel Google his name and he states on his website he’s a big name trainer…sad.
Just saw this on my local CL:
Son of world champion gelding – $4500
Cloned pehaps?
Very possible. Stallion bred prior to gelding and being pinned NC. I’ve even known of big-time breeding stallions being frozen, gelded and then campaigned in performance.
My favorite was “horse has Vernacular”.
I almost snorted iced tea with that one.
Seen on Craigs List ad as part of a barn description “tact room”……
I boarded at a barn once that coulda used a TACT room!
OT to this post, but so awful, must be shared… someone who can screen capture 6 Month old Haflinger before it’s gone… I hope it’s a joke?
Little guy saddled in a round pen, with rope reins off the halter, text reads:
I have a 6 month old Haflinger gelding. He is halter broke and doing well on the lead rope. He would make a nice 4-H project. I was going to break him myself but have not had the time to continue working with him. He is very gentle natured, has not offered to kick or bite. Allows you to brush him down and comb his mane and forelock. He is a real sweetie, just needs someone that his the time he deserves to spend with him. I can show him just about any time. If interested let me know. I am asking $250.00
Sorry, let me try a cut and paste link, I’m not hood at tags:
http://dayton.craigslist.org/grd/1543335314.html
Most owners these days are novices or amateurs, we are not experts. We have jobs to support our habit, horses. So typos are gonna happen. Perfect spelling does not fill the buckets or haynets. Nor geld your perfect “stud”.
Now if you want to get thousands instead on hundreds for your ponies, you want correct spelling. My biggest pet peeve is my boss in healthcare uses spellcheck…which does NOT correct their, there or to, two, and too.
Is it wrong to refer to my horses as ” the kids” ? As in “have you checked on the kids? did you feed the kids? How about when all the horses come running up to the gate except the little one… is it Ok to ask the old Donkey what he did to his little sister ?
My spellcheck only corrects in German , so am I excused for my spelling errors ? I dont like the” 1/2 brother” , “she is out of him” stuff either. I prefer the “my stallion and mare made him or her”
Sorry,arabtrainer, but a shank DOES make a bit a curb bit. According to “A Whole Bit Better ” by Dale, Ron & Bob Myler (and actually any 4H manual) “there are mainly two types of bits, shankor curb bits,and ring or direct action bits.” So many people refer to Tom Thumb bits as snaffles bits because they have a broken mouthpiece, but that is not the identifying criterion. The action of the bit, either leverage or direct,is what most commonly defines the type of bit. Of course, different modifications to the basic snaffle,as in a full cheek,or a ring with hooks,can allow a snaffle to use leverage like a shank bit,but I don’t believe a shank bit can be modified to not create leverage, unless one is talking about a Kimberwicke with several slots to modify to use direct rein pressure or apply leverage,or some driving bits with the same capacity.
I also think that so many believe a Tom Thumb is a good beginner bit. It’s not, in green or hard hands it can be a real torture device,as can most any bit.
A little rant,here: so many of us have taken the time and pains to learn all about saddle fit, proper hoof care,the latest advances in dental care and massage, magnets,chiropractic,the list goes on,now think we all need to make the effort to learn about bits and how they work,dispel some old myths, look in our horses’ mouths, and assess the bit we commonly use, to know that we are training and riding with care for the comfort and sensitivity of our horse’s mouths in mind. A Myler bitting clinic is a wonderful, eye opening experience, and very helpful for training one’s awareness to the signals a horse gives that it isn’t real happy with the bit he or she is wearing. A Doesn’t have to be Myler, of course,any respected and reputable bit manufacturer who goes to the trouble of sending out a team to educate people will help us to learn more about this basic tool. I hope more of do get a chance to add this information to our “toolbox”
Wow. Way too long, sorry.
Nope. A curb bit by definition MUST have a curb chain or strap acting upon the curb groove, hence, the term CURB bit. A joint in the bit is completely irrelevant, as is a shank, or a port. A Kimberwick has no real shank, yet it is essentially a curb bit. This is also why elevator bits that have “shanks” are gags, and NOT curbs. No curb groove pressure= no curb bit.
I forgot to mention that the Myler bit manual is provided to sell their bits. Part of advertising is dumbing down information to sell to the average consumer. I like a lot of the Myler products, but they are not giving bit descriptions to professional horse trainers who know what bit are what and know how to use them. That is why they list bits as “level 1″ “level 2″, etc.
More of us ,I mean. Sorry, crappy keyboard,too cheap to replace it.
Since we seem to be on the topic of horses and papers and people charging extra to sell a horse with papers vs without…
I don’t know if you have a law like this in the states, but in Canada it is illegal to sell an animal as purebred without papers, and it is also illegal to charge a different amount with papers or without papers. I thought this law was specific to dogs but it includes horses as well as many other species.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/A-11.2/index.html
Just found one that cracked me up…http://waco.craigslist.org/grd/1544593329.html
Let’s not refer to a horse as part of the female reproductive system. Yikes!
“Ovarian mare!”
Hahahasnorksnork!
Brood mare material, or what?
Actually, when I was a child, my mother owned a mare that was ‘tri-colored’. She was plain old chestnut, no biggie, a couple of white socks and this huge black spot right above a sock on her right hind leg. Weirdest thing ever, I thought at the time.
Then I grew up and got internet access. I figured out quickly that a small genetic mutation was nothing to get excited over.
Also, in this year’s Rose Bowl parade, the announcers told everyone watching that Saddlebreds are ‘trained’ to pace. I know the announcers just read what they’re given, but it was a big facepalm moment for me.
This just in from Craigslist:
Beautyful Standerdbred mare NEEDS new home IMMEDIATELY!
Sweety is a blood bay, ex-raceing mare. She can Pull a cart for pleasure or show. Not currently rideable, but can learn. She is a great OVER THE FENCE buddy, but NEVER a pasture pal. She is VERY AGRESSIVE twords other horses, but turnds to butter for people. She is currently in need of a new home becuse owner has to many horses. She is very ruff due to not being driven or hanessed for a few years and needs some general manner work, but is a fast learner. We would like her to go to a Single horse home with people who have alot of time to spend re-polishing this diomond thats gotten lost in the ruff. She is 12 years old and around 17+ hands. Thick in the leg, chest, berral and butt. She is great for clipping and shoes, good bather, good loader, fine with being tied. But like i said she hasnt been worked with for 2 or more years, and will need alot of time, love and understanding.
Email for pictures, serious inquiries only, NO TIRE KICKERS!!
She is free to a well fitting, understanding and approved home.
I think my brain is going to shut down.
Another ad from someone who doesn’t have the ability to spell. Poor little “phillie”.
http://memphis.craigslist.org/grd/1534028324.html
A perfect example of completely illiterate for sale ads AND horses who should never have been bred:
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A perfect example of completely illiterate for sale ads AND horses who should never have been bred:
standard bred mare + Rone horse = 6.mo.old filly
A little late but I just saw another one that bothers me. Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet or not but I didn’t see it anywhere. I hate when people say their horse is “going well in the round pin” (actually, the ads usually say “going good in the round pin” but I just couldn’t bring myself to botch up my grammar AND misuse a word all in one phrase).
I started a little business to try and help people in my area with this. If they want their ads written right, I’ll be happy to write it for them if it means a more educated set will look at the horse.
http://brit0405.webs.com
Unfortunately, I think the set that needs it most will probably be unwilling to shell out the $1, but I can hope.
“You know, if your horse doesn’t have anyone worth a shit in the first three generations of his pedigree, he’s probably a piece of shit, too.”
I’ve heard a similar comment made by a SAFE board member, in reference to any foal/horse resulting from a breeding that maybe should not have happened….I really think this is an ugly way to describe ANY horse, especially coming from someone who is in the business of, or associated with rescuing horses.
Some of the very horses that are being rescued and re-homed are, by this definition, “pieces of shit” and even being so, do they not deserve the same chance at life as a “well bred” horse and more importantly, the same respect? ….
While I do not condone the breeding of horses, without sufficient knowledge in that area….I’ve owned some pretty darned good “pieces of shit” in my day….Like my dad used to say “you can’t ride a pedigree up the mountainside”..so…please…those of you making these types of references, try to choose your words more carefully in the future, as this really hurts and quite frankly, it’s inconsiderate and mean.
As far as the Grulla and the Palomino producing a Cremello- was the mare genetically tested to be a Grulla? I have seen several breeders label horses as “Grulla” when really they were a buckskin with a strong “sooty” gene.
Uhm… For appaloosas there is such a thing as tri-colored. Secret Weapon, a working cow stud from the ’60′s was a bay leopard with random buckskin spots, the size of your hand. I have a granddaughter of his, she threw a tricolor snowcap when bred to a buckskin. I was very confused…kept trying to was off these dirt stains until i realized that they were different colored spots.
but i think calling a bay paint tricolored is a load.