The grapes of sour!
Dec 18 2009
I love it when people gripe about how showing is sooo political and the standards are all wrong and they just won’t (add dramatic emphasis!) participate in such a flawed system. This usually translates as:
1. Holy crap, I saw what that shit costs and I can’t possibly make room for it in my budget. I might have to give up smoking, are you nuts?
2. I tried showing and I got beat. Clearly the judges are insane not to recognize how great my horse is.
I recently read one such rant online and I MUST share it here, along with the accompanying photo.
“For those of you who did not make it to World, kudos to you! This year’s world show is a JOKE!
Yes, I am a little bitter, but before you start calling me a poor sport, listen to what happened today in the western pleasure classes.
First of all, the Snaffle Bit classes were being judged at the same time as the JR western pleasure classes. I’m still not sure how the judges are able to judge 2 classes at the same time. I’ll admit, I’m not familiar with NSBA rules, but common sense says, if you’re competing in a “Snaffle Bit” class, you should be using a “snaffle bit” on your horse, not a curb.
Then, the competitors are asked to walk…jog…extend the jog…lope, etc. I was the only person in the ring that did what we were asked to do. Not a single other person moved any faster then a walk, and yet they all placed! Only 1 judged came an looked at my horse when we were asked to line up, and then back.
To further prove my point; almost every horse kept going in the original direction for at least 50 yards, after we were asked to reverse! I’m sorry but that is not showing!
I show, breed, and train performance horses. If you talk to anyone who does anything with performance horses, they will tell you that your horse needs to be able to do natural gaits. That is how a horse is built, that is how they naturally move. It’s been that way since the horse first showed on the evolutionary time line. This stupid 4-beated-cater, tr-anter, or whatever the *#%! it’s called has got to go!
My stud has placed in the top 2 at Futurities, AQHA shows, and Open shows performing the same way he did today. There is no reason why he should not have placed, because he did what he was asked. Just because the other people don’t know how to train their horses properly, is no reason why us responsible trainers shouldn’t win and/or place!
OK I’m done venting.”
Ma’am, let me explain to you what that picture shows us:
1. You’re leaning forward which is not helping your horse slow down and look relaxed.  And you seem to be bracing off your stirrups. Honestly, you look kind of scared. I lean forward too, it’s a hard habit to break, and it’s why I have a trainer who’s showing my horse instead of me. You might want to consider that option.
2. The death grip on his mouth does not help him lower his head or look relaxed. Again, you look like you are trying to keep him from running off. This is not the look anyone is going for in western pleasure, NOT EVEN at the foundation QH shows, which this wasn’t one of. ALL western pleasure horses go on a loose rein. ALL! In fact, there is not a single western discipline I can think of in which the contact you’re riding on is appropriate. Cutting horses, roping horses, all work mostly on a soft rein, with contact made only as necessary.
Maybe this horse is simply not a pleasure horse type, or maybe he was having a bad day. Either way, you will not improve the way he goes by ranting about how unfaaaaaair the show was online. I get so tired of reading stuff like this. People go on these anti-show rants, and usually it is all about western pleasure.
HERE IS AN IMPORTANT NEWS FLASH! LISTEN UP!
Even at an AQHA show, MOST of the classes are NOT western pleasure. You have a very wide variety of events to choose from, MANY of which NEVER contain any participants that are troping, wogging or peanut-rolling.
Go in Working Hunter!
Go in Roping!
Go in Team Penning!
Go in Cutting!
Go in Ranch Versatility!
The fact that you don’t, and instead run around the Internet spewing venom, is proof that your horse isn’t good at anything, and that you are just a whiner.
Add to this the information provided by others who were present who noted that:
1. Your horse bucked in the class. No, saddle bronc is NOT an event. Sorry.
2. Your horse wouldn’t stop and almost ran over some of the judges.
3. Your horse was on the wrong lead more than once.
But my favorite comment was from a gal who observed “You should try to learn from your ride, not make excuses and point fingers at everyone but yourself and your horse.”
That’s about the size of it – but Blame-Throwin’ Betty isn’t about to point a finger at herself.
And that’s the end of MY rant.
133 comments to “The grapes of sour!”
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Well, I have to agree with her about the weirdness of western pleasure classes these days. I’m sure she WAS the only one actually jogging or loping in the class!
But clearly, this self-proclaimed “trainer” of performance horses does not know enough to know what the current style of western pleasure is. All it takes it to observe one or two classes and see what they’re doing and what’s winning. If you don’t want to ride your horse in that manner, then don’t enter the class!
The photo doesn’t help her case.
Even before I read the entry, I looked at the picture and thought what a horrible photo is was. I thought the same things you did; she looked perched and frightened, bent over and doing the death-grip on the reins.
After reading, the picture has become even more hilarious. yay and lol
lol yeah I looked a the picture first too. we had a trainer just move into our barn, and that is how she rides too. Her timing is aweful- probably because she is so unbalanced! I watched her students ride, and they are WAY worse. Hands in their crotches, perched forward, chair seat, and she teaches them all to ‘sea-saw’ aggressivly to ‘set’ their heads, and ‘saw’ into their necks to do a LEG yield! This one student looked like a TOTAL beginner, I watched her horse spook and she fell off, it was so not a major spook! this “Trainer” thinks that this student is ready to JUMP and start training horses herself!! I had to scrape my jaw off the arena floor, after I watched her bounce around on her OTTB’s back and SLAM it in the mouth over every jump. YIKES! oh, BTW she thinks she is an “A-circuit” trainer LOL poor pony needs an upgrade! She is SAINT for a 3yo…funny though that I heard her commenting on how “she was so much better when we started” …lady- HERE’S YOUR SIGN!
LOL! I have physical problems and walk with a cane, so riding doing anything using my legs is pretty useless. But even I can sit a spooky horse if your actually ‘sitting’ in the saddle.
Was out riding on a QH gelding I used to work with. he was a saint. There was a large exspance of green at the end of our runway here in town, and we’d ride out there a lot on teh flats when the tide was out. First time Nickers saw a plane coming I just turned him towards it so he could watch it come down. Not a problem, walked on, and out of nowhere a little rabbit or weezle popped up and ran across the road. I swear he lifted up 4 feet in the air, levitated 6 feet sideways and came down. And man, that saddle horn left a bruise bigger than a grapefruit on me but I still stayed in the saddle.
If you cant stay on after a little spook you definately cant jump and need to go back to basics.
OK then, I read thie blog after I looked at the picture, I thought the picture was of someone warming up before a class began, but this is actually how she looked during the class? Give me a break, SHE needs a trainer, she is NOT a trainer if this is how she rides, acts. etc…
I hate the four beating and ‘walk in front’ jogs too, which is why I do not do those gaits when I show, and why I have a trainer who believes a horse must use his/her own natural gaits. BUT, I still show (arabian western pleasure mainly) and I am not the only one who feels that way and who still shows. Sometimes we lose to fourbeaters, sometimes we beat them, but one thing’s for certain, if horses who do not move naturally are not shown at all, four beating will always be rerwarded, and nothing will change.
To say that you won’t show horses because the gaits are unnatural, to even get so upset as to say “This stupid 4-beated-cater, tr-anter, or whatever the *#%! it’s called has got to go!” yet not be willing to provide an example of how a quality western horse SHOULD go, just smacks of jealousy and laziness and an attempt to hide the fact that your horse, while not four beating, still isn’t a good WP horse. I want the trend to move away from stiff horses with all their weight on their forehand too, but I am not eagerly awaiting or anticipating the trend of high headed, out of control racers and bracers in western pleasure either.
In the end, for the vast majority of us showing, it’s a social event, not a do or die contest. Just do all you can to put the best ride possible that day out there, do all you can to be proud of yourself as an exhibitor and as a horse owner, which means care and concern for your horse’s well being, and enjoy the day with like minded friends. What the judges choose to do is up to them, but give them the option of you and your horse at your best and see what happens.
Learning from our mistakes??? What a concept!!!
While the general concensus is those western pleasure classes need to accelerate just a little bit into more natural gaits…that horse certainly is not what the goal is.
I watched some of the classes online and was pretty happy with the choices made.
Honestly, anyone with that many complaints is in the wrong hobby. First, I saw that photo and assumed it was 25 years old considering the way the rider is perched, not to mention that horse’s headset. The death grip, well… that has never been popular.
But by far the worst part of her rant is that no one can ride in a class and be that cognizant of how *every* other horse is performing. We’re all come out of classes and wondered why a judge didn’t see what we thought we saw but she is citing how far the other horses went before reversing directions. (By the way, this shows her lack of experience in high level shows because how fast you respond to the judge is far less important than how a reverse or gait change is executed).
Next time she heads to World, she could do a quick video search and see what wins in NSBA (one example: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2318751300351266178#) THEN decide if she wants to compete in that circuit. If she doesn’t like what wins become a carded judge and lobby for change or find a new discipline.
I have been reading this blog for a few months now and this is my first comment. While the ranting rider doesn’t look like my ideal of Western Pleasure I have to agree with her about how insane WP is. I tried to watch the video you sent me and I was about to fall asleep from boredom.
Those horses do not look natural, they do not look “pleasureable” to ride. They look half-dead! Those gaits are not jogs or walks. The riders look so stiff and unhappy as do the horses. They’re horses and people, not robots.
Personally, I would much rather go out, show my horse doing a real pleasurable ride at a real walk and a real jog, with a real smile on my face, not a forced one doing laps around robohorses and not place just to show the judges and competitors they don’t have to do conform. Eventually if enough riders and trainers did the same, this insane half-dead WP crap would stop winning ribbons.
Yee gads- the video on this link is disgusting!!!! Who on earth would want to ride like that? My DH walked by as I was watching and his comment was “are all those horses dying?”
I have to agree with the other comments about your video link. That’s just frightening and it really does look like those horses are in a lot of pain! I’m a dressage rider (it’s what I like) but I also have a little arab fill who I’ll be showing WP on the arab circut next year. I can’t say I’m a HUGE fan of arab WP either, but it’s sure a lot nicer to watch than the QH stuff! I don’t think those horses could track up if you packed them full of a gallon of oats! I love the “loap with forward motion” rofl that was beautiful! I couldn’t judge that stuff. And why on earth does it take a half hour to judge one class?!?! Holy cow, I’d honestly walk out if a class were presented to me like that – but that is my opinion.
I watched that video. All I have to say is Good God. What the hell is that?? Those “Western Pleasure” horses are atrocious. They all look either lame or half dead. If my horse looked like that I’d call a vet. Honestly I would. That’s what’s winning in the show ring? What is wrong with these people? More importantly – what is wrong with those horses?
Like several others, I tried to watch the video and was just disgusted. This is why I don’t show. Those horses look so unnatural and unhappy and it is just disgusting. And no wonder the stands were empty, that was boring as hell and I only made it through a few minutes of the video.
I had my fair share of VERY unfair judging, and i do aknowledge that there are some judges out there that should NOT be judging.. but, my experience comes primarially from backyard shows. The judges i’ve had at my Dressage Leveling Tests have all been very professional and their calls were very fair, but with the backyard shows.. you get what you pay for.
The only times i knew that I was screwed out of placing was when MULTIPLE trainers would complain about how the class was pinned.. EVEN IF ONE OF THEIR KIDS PLACED. At one show in particular i didn’t place in any class, the judge wouldn’t look at me. The trainer of the child that did win asked me to follow him, he trudged into the arena and said: “My student did NOT ride a first place ride. THIS girl did. Why didn’t she place?” And the judge didn’t answer. He said something along the lines of “Thats what i thought. Only judging the faces you remember” and he pulled all 30 kids and 25 horses from the remainder of the classes and demanded a refund. I was… blown away.
So, when OTHER people see that you scored a winning ride, and wondered why the hell you didn’t place.. that’s when there was something probably wrong with the judging. Either they weren’t paying enough attention to you, or didnt care.. didnt like your horse.. breed.. color.. etc. But if you just lost, then well.. there’s probably a reason. With most Backyard shows though, you can approach the judges and ask them why they didnt place you if you’re unsure. They’re usually really keen on helping you grow. When it gets to the Wolrd level however, i’m not sure.
I won a Country Pleasure at a “higher scale” backyard show by walking. I walked the entire thing on my old Quarter Horse mare. I chose the Walk as my favorite gait and i had a BIG OL GENUINE SMILE on my face the entire time. I pinned first. First. FIRST… for walking. The judge said: “Out of all these horses this is the mare i want to ride. This girl made this mare look like a fantastic little ride and it was obvious she was having a genuine good time. Remember, this is a PLEASURE class.. that means SMILE!” But yeah.. blue rosette, and 250 dollar gift certificate to a really nice tack store.
I thought the photo that accompanied the rant was hilarious “WHY DIDNT I WIN D:” Well.. you answered your question with that photo XD
Aaaaand.. there’s always speed events for those who think the judges are full of shit (just don’t wind your horse up like so many other racers do). and Horsemanship. I believe most Horsemanship classes work via elimination (atleast the ones i’ve participated in). I won by counter-cantering a 10 meter circle. That was.. the hardest thing.. ive ever done.. in my career with horses. I rode that circle ugly as hell to keep that horse in stride! When i pulled it off I was just blown away by the applause. One of my proudest moments!
Thanks for the laugh today. There is nothing about that horse that suggests he’s a WP horse, from his tail set to his build. She’s a crap rider and she can whine all she wants, she doesn’t even have him turned out appropriately for a WP class, not the least of which is his mane needs to be pulled. From that picture, she couldnt’ even place in a Novice 4H class. The horse is a really pretty color though, I bet she breeds him lots and lots…..
Yeah, really, he looks like he could be a lovely horse but I don’t think it’s his niche in life, either. More a rope horse/team penning type. As I’ve noted before, a lot of the frustration – both horse and human – in the horse world comes from trying to jam a square peg into a round hole. If your horse is more high headed and wants to go, great – give him that job he craves running after cows or around barrels, don’t drive yourself crazy trying to compete against horses who prefer to go slow and low naturally.
I guess I’m lukewarm on this one. I agree– her photo isn’t gonna earn her any ribbons at any show I’ve been to in the past years. She wouldn’t like me as an instructor at all, since the first thing to go would be her reins, unless she chose to listen and actually let go of her horse. On the bright side… he’s a pretty color!!!
However, I do have to agree– the western ‘pleasure’ industry really is scary wrong. Even more frightening is when I try to find a trainer who actually trains without cruelty. So far, I haven’t found one. I have been assured by MANY riders that their trainer doesn’t hurt their horses, and I’m pretty sure at least some of them are right. The thing is, I’ve been in those ‘top’ barns. I’ve visited Congress winning trainers. I’ve seen the spur marks, the bit marks, and the raw skin under the elbows from horses who are being tied down in curb bits while lunging walk, trot, and canter. All because the horse is ‘resistant’ or ‘refuses to give’. I know of several broodmares who only have half a tongue, or a tongue that is almost cut in half. Must have been a very sharp stalk of hay….
Or my personal favorite– I went to a barn, considering asking if I could ride there. The trainer (for lack of a better word) walked me around. Half his horses were tied around in their stalls. One particular stallion was tied to the side of the arena, tied high, while others worked their horses around him. Horse flies were biting this stallion, and he had no way to get them off. When he nickered to another horse, the trainer (again, I use the term loosely) walked over and kicked the horse HARD in the gut. To be fair, I was told that when he was dumped at a major show in the makeup ring, other trainers stopped and cheered. I know I would have. Needless to say, I didn’t even ask for a job.
Now. I am SURE there are good western pleasure trainers out there. I really am sure of this, I’m not being sarcastic. But unfortunately, there are bad ones too. Maybe the industry needs to change some standards, to help eliminate rewarding the type of movement that can be achieved with violence or cruelty. It’s something to work on anyway.
And yes, I’m one of those who no longer shows western pleasure– I’m also one who never would have won at the Worlds. I don’t have that kind of money or time. It takes a GOOD horse to win at that level of competition, and then it takes luck and practice.
>>Even more frightening is when I try to find a trainer who actually trains without cruelty. So far, I haven’t found one.< <
I hear you! I do! I found one. ONE. I did not find multiple choices from which to choose from. Still haven’t. I’m not saying they’re out there but damn I have walked into a lot of show barns with pissed off horses with injuries, just like you have.
Not once have I seen a spur track or a bloody mouth or a cut tongue on anything in her barn. I’ve never seen her lose her temper with a horse, period. If they’re being a shit, they get disciplined and then it’s over and life goes on.
The proof is in the pudding – my horse has been there since April and is still perky, fresh and hasn’t developed a single “OMG-they’re-beating-me-behind-your-back” behavior – i.e. no ear pinning, tail swishing, traveling sideways, nervousness, weight loss, colicking, ulcers, etc. Nothing. He’s fat, he’s happy, they feed him treats, they turn him out every day. He just jogs a heck of a lot slower than he used to, and has realized his neck can bend.
>>Even more frightening is when I try to find a trainer who actually trains without cruelty. So far, I haven’t found one.< <
We are out there, but it is worth it to remember that non-cruel methods take time. I have people that want their horses performing immediately and don't understand, sure I can beat, whip, overbit, tie-up…etc., your horse and get them to perform unhapily and broken pretty quickly, but if I want a horse to round, collect, have proper impulsion on the bit with a willing attitude it takes time.
Oh, amen. I talked to someone who said “You should use MY trainer, HE would have had him (my horse) in the pen in thirty days.” Well, gee, lady, we actually have a horse in the barn from YOUR trainer…it came in brain fried and bucking like a bronc and my trainer had to fix him and it took a lot longer than thirty days. I think we’ll just do it right the first time, thankyouverymuch…
Just wondering if the WP headset is natural at all? I don’t see horses walking around like that when they’re not being ridden. Personally, I don’t care for it, but can it be obtained without harsh methods?
Yes and no, Ahughes. In order to achieve that type of headset, you need several things:
1. Build. If your horse’s neck comes out level, and sets level, then you can get that head set naturally. If your horse isn’t built that way, you might as well forget it. Likewise, the head is set by the hips and back– a weak horse can’t hold the position.
2. Temperament. A horse whose head is level and nose is vertical can’t actually see very well. It also can’t tense up and keep that position. So it takes a quiet calm horse to hold that position for very long.
3. Patience of the trainer. I always picture western pleasure as a version of Dressage, only performed on a loose rein. So figure how long it takes to get a dressage horse to piaffe on a loose rein, and you have your average western jog. In other words, asking a horse to balance that low, that slow, takes a lot of time (or a lot of intimidation).
It depends on what you mean by “WP headset”. If you mean the peanut-rolling-nose-in-the-dirt then no, that’s not natural. But if you just mean carrying their heads low with their poll level with their withers then yes, it is. I don’t do WP, I barrel race, but every single one of my horses walk and trot with their heads low, and I know that I never taught them to do that so it must be natural haha.
While on the topic of the low headset I think that even ‘natural’ ones look awkward at the canter when the riders make them keep their heads low; it looks like they have to put in so much effort with every stride to maintain their head at that level and then they end up bobbing all weird. Like I said, my barrel racing horses travel on a loose rein at the walk and trot with a level head, but they all lift their poll higher when they canter and I think they look a lot more comfortable than the WP horses.
An exhibitor went up to a horse show judge to complain about being placed below someone who made some sort of mistake, such as being on the wrong lead. The judge’s explanation ‘ The other guy did it better wrong than you did right’!
LMAO!! My favorite “remark” from the AQHA magazine. I’ll never forget it!!
And sometimes that is the truth!
Let’s say you have 2 horses only in a class. One gets everything right but is high headed, nervous and looks horrible to ride. The other has a lovely ride and blows a lead. Rider catches it and fixes it quickly. It’s a pleasure class – while leads matter, if those are your choices, I’d give the horse that blew the lead the blue, and so would most people.
If you review the rule book for any of the major breed/show organizations, manners and “brokeness” take precedent over quality of gait, provided the gait is true. Which is why I end up placing the snail with the level headset and alert but calm look over someone’s backyard project going wide-eyed and high-headed at a more natural pace, though both have a cadenced walk, two-beat jog, and 3-beat lope.
I was at a show once and that very thing happend. It was a horsemanship class with 2 entries. A shetland pony and an arabian stallion. The pony was perfect with some little girl at the lead. The stallion could not stand still and seemed to be very bratty. The “woman” at the lead couldn’t control him. Well, the pony got the blue and the “woman” started acting just like her horse. She even went to the office to complain. Sure the stallion was pretty, but his behavior was very very ugly. I was sooo happy the judge did the right thing!
Poor horse! I don’t like the way western pleasure is going either. it looks very artificial, and unnatural. but thats just me, and i don’t ride, train or breed western pleasure horses. so i can’t say anything right? Right.
Also, my horse can’t do anything, I know that, but we’ll do our darndest to get to the 4-h regionals next year!
Nah, you can say anything here, I critique disciplines I don’t do. Nothing wrong with that.
But the point is, it IS natural for some horses. Mine has never gone above level. He went level-necked his first ride. He’s built that way. If he were built differently, he might be learning to be a barrel horse or a jumper right now.
Ok..I was going to say something..until you said that some horses are built that way. I also have one of those horses..heck, I have two..that are built to travel in that low frame. It’s the way the horses naturally go, even in the pasture..even while chasing another horse LOL. Muddy the gelding, also moves in the tiny slow jog, he can move out and knows how to do lots of things…but dont’ knock that tiny little jog when you are out trail riding all day, keeping up with the horses that walk out..but still maintaining your old ladies back and seat bones. I can guarantee none of this was artificially created as I have known his first owner, the person that started him and have ridden with her for well over 20 years now. Plus..he’s a baby and would pout if anyone ever mistreated him. He purses his lower lip and pouts….very cute.
OMG that little jog… I had a little mare that was coming along as an awesome barrel horse. That little gal could boogey. But she could settle into this jog that was so fricken comfortable you could ride like that all day. She didn’t have that sort of downhill look that a lot of the WP horses have but she had that jog… My old mare does the same thing. I dont ride her a lot and only bareback and never past a jog because her knees get ouchy, but when we are out she is just so happy she breaks into a jog on her own (I pretty much indulge her and let her do what she wants) but it is like she is smiling with her gait at the joy of being ridden (I’m sure that sounds a bit goofy – maybe you have to see it
)
Yeah. I have shown Western Pleasure for the last 10 years or so, and what sold me on my current show ride was when he loped up to me with his head just a bit below his withers and his speed well in check. All this at 11 months old and fresh out of the pasture. The other horses in his pasture will be running around and he will be a solid 30yrds behind them, losing even more ground.
What really gets me about Western Pleasure are the people who insist on trying to “make” WP horses. There are so many out there that LIKE to go that low and slow (no spurs/twisted wire/training fork/drugging/beating required). Also having had to sweet talk a previous horse into WP-its WAY easier to ride and show one that likes what they are doing. (Also don’t worry about the previous horse-he’s much happier as the team penner he is today)
Also I have to agree about good WP trainers. They are like good farriers-hard to find, but well worth it. I started with a great WP trainer and I have to say the job she did on my ride is fantastic, true gaits and a level head carriage. He waits for her to come and get him at the gate of a 10 acre pasture with his ears pricked and talking half the time. A perk is also that I only lost one WP class last year and that was because the wee horsie got scared and almost jumped on the judge. Although unlike the lady in the story I wasn’t suprised that we didn’t place.
” it looks very artificial, and unnatural. but that’s just me, and i don’t ride, train or breed western pleasure horses. so i can’t say anything right”
No, it’s not just you!!!
To the rest of the world it is just another example of how Americans torture their horses!
Why on EARTH would you do this?
It looks as bad as the “Big Lick” animals (although I appreciate that it is not as cruel).
I know horses have their tails denerved to stop them moving them, are there any instances of them having the sinews in their necks cut, too??
Sorry, Americans, there is cruelty in every single country in the world, and some of it is unbelievably gross and awful, but there are not many countries that have shows for it!
Kirri: this is an American blog with mainly American readers. I recommend that you don’t diss (for lack of a better word) American riders and say that American riders toture our horses. We tend to be a bit patriotic. Be more specific if you feel the need to add insult to injury. This is not abuse, it’s simply bad horsemanship.
Oh, don’t be that way. Perhaps kirri worded it coarsely, but he/she is still entitled to their opinion. I happen to agree; we [American horsepeople] could use more oversight on animal cruelty performed for vain purposes. There’s a reason that Shame in the Show Horse Ring exists.
However, we talk about cruelty so much that I’m happy to get to talk about something as innocuous as poor form!
I agree, horse torture is most definitely NOT confined to America! We get plenty of examples, on this blog and elsewhere, of poor training/bad riding/silly theories/pathetic standards of care/torture, from all over the world!
But I can understand why Kirri and horsepeople from other countries have that impression of the USA–our media tends to publicise the flashy, the shocking, the freaky. A show about big-lick horses snorting around an arena with their heads in the air is considered more photogenic, and therefore sells more ads, than a show about a group of happy, healthy horses and riders putting on a charity trail ride.
Don’t lump all of us Americans into that crap. I would no sooner do that to my horse than I would cut off my own leg.
Reading a rant like that, I assumed the ranter was quite young… then I saw the picture.
Kind of makes you wonder doesn’t it? I know my first thought was “Maybe she had a REAL trainer who did take her horse to success, and now she is frustrated because she can’t do it herself.” Then a reality check- if she can post such an ignorant rant, she is likely too ignorant to know that she needs to hire a trainer.
Maybe she BOUGHT him AFTER he won?
Nah, probably just an exaggerator…
Look I’ll be honest I don’t show right now because of the cost of showing; in this economy with 3 children to feed plus a horse to care for PROPERLY showing is just not in the budget. There are a certain amount of policts involved in showing I have seen this take place when some people REALLY did not win the class but they got placed anyways (and no I was not showing in that class). The reality though is that no matter how good you think you are you will not always place so you either show knowing you might not win and just want to have fun with your horse or stay out of the ring. Showing is not life or death…sorry it’s just a game, a place to have fun with your horse, keep a sense of humor about you and you’ll have fun. Yes it’s frustrating when you drop 1000.00 and have no 50 cent ribbon to come home with or another point to your horse’s name in the registery, but ask yourself why did you get into horses in the first place if it was to get rich…hahahaha someone told you a joke…but if it was because you love your horse and know that they are number 1 then great…just have fun with them.
Pick a style, but a pre-training level dressage frame probably isn’t one of your choices. I don’t show Western horses, but even I can see that riding around the show ring in that frame wouldn’t be correct anywhere. She does have that “omg please don’t go any faster” posture.
Nice outfit on the rider, though, and the horse is well presented. Although, is that the fashion now to have sort of a long natural mane? It looks kind of sloppy, even if it’s nicely brushed. I think a more shaped mane would make him look cuter and more polished.
What is hanging from the back of the saddle? Is that a rope? Why would it be there?
Also, to be completely snarky, I don’t like the saddle pad riding over the horse’s croup. Wouldn’t you want a pad that fit neatly around the saddle? That one’s too big for his short back. In fact, the entire saddle looks too big and slightly too far forward, but then again, there’s no place for it to go back. I don’t believe you can’t spend what that saddle probably cost and get one that actually looks like it fits the horse!
It’s certainly a pretty horse, but I understand why only one judge came by and took a look in the lineup. That was actually a nice courteous thing to do for a competitor that clearly wasn’t going to win anything.
Honestly, when I saw tht photo, I thought she was showing in 4H. The whole thing screams “I am not ready for the big time.” I agree with Fugly, get some help. She may be a professional trainer, but it’s not showing in this photo, or her post about how it’s all political and she didn’t get a fair shake. Nuh uh, it’s all on you babe.
“Pick a style, but a pre-training level dressage frame probably isn’t one of your choices.”
LOL, agreed!
It’s a shame because the horse is really cute, I love his markings, and I think she’s got some good ideas… like not using a curb bit when you ride like that.
“It’s certainly a pretty horse, but I understand why only one judge came by and took a look in the lineup. That was actually a nice courteous thing to do for a competitor that clearly wasn’t going to win anything.”
No, that’s one point where she is 100% right. The judge is being PAID to do the job; the entrant is PAYING. If you are a judge, it is your responsibility to look at EVERY HORSE IN THE RING. Even if the horse hasn’t the slightest chance of winning anything, you give the entrant the courtesy of a few seconds of your attention in the lineup. The other judges were in the wrong.
I say this as a JUDGE. I make this point every time I speak at judging school — EVERY entrant deserves courtesy and attention, no matter how inept.
I have to agree with her that WP has gone to hell lately. Stick-legged horses with their noses dragging in the dirt just don’t do it for me. I know that western is supposed to be a little slower and more laid-back than English, but the modern genre of western pleasure (and even HUS) is ridiculous. I would probably fall asleep if I was riding a modern WP horse.
Her horse is beautiful. I bet he would make a nice English mount with some training.
Although, I agree with you that she needs to stop whining. I’m not surprised that she didn’t place when all those things (that she failed to mention in her rant) went wrong.
Alot of uneducated WP comments, I challenge anyone to find a “nose in the dirt” or a w-og on a world caliber show WP show horse. Take a trip through U-tube, peanut rollers have been out for decades, yet people still refer to that as WP and think that’s what placing. as fugs says, her moves naturally level. at the world level they have been bred to go slow with a LEVEL topline, the problem comes when you’re “joe backyard breeder” tries to make their upside down neck, camped out hind end horse move the same …. not gonna happen. can’t show in a twisted wire, they check bits. ok, so the walk is a death march and they are trying to addressed that in judging clinics and the lope is a head bobbing contest – but if you look at the legs, there is a three beat, that if only moved out a bit, would look lovely and would get ride of that rotten WP head bob. Her braced against the bit, hind end trailing “WP” horse is not looking very pleasurable! As far as judging – if you’ve shown long enough you realize you win some you feel you shouldn’t have and get the gate at ones you felt you were great. they seem to even each other out and you keep working to improve and show another day. No whining, playing the “politics” card to me, is a cop out.
“Alot of uneducated WP comments, I challenge anyone to find a “nose in the dirt†or a w-og on a world caliber show WP show horse.”
Take yourself to the world shows. No, the peanut rollers aren’t there any more — but the woggers, tropers, and crabs with heads consistently lower than the rules are the ones winning. Over and over. Yes, I am talking WORLD stock-breed shows.
“Level necked horses” — of course there are natural ones. That’s what the stock breed pleasure horses looked like *before* the peanut roller days, although they certainly had purer gaits in those days — and if the horses were winning with their natural carriage, there would be far less criticism.
The most telling point is the big multi-page color ads in the breed magazines, advertising their winning horses — and the horses’ heads are illegally low. As long as they are spending big money to PROMOTE horses that don’t meet the rulebook requirements, there is still a problem.
I’m no “expert” at Western Pleasure but I used to do it for a while as a teenager… small shows, like 16 years ago… I dabbled in a lot of disciplines over the years. 25 years of riding in total, in western, hunter/jumper/eq, eventing, and finally settling with dressage.
My “uneducated” opinion is that most of the horses, especially the “upper level” horses like World competitors, look CRIPPLED.
My completely uneducated non-horsey husband caught a look at a Western Pleasure class I was watching on Youtube and he thought (I am not joking) that it was some kind of Special Olympics for horses. His first impression was that they were physically handicapped horses. !
Maybe there are competitions or regions or whatnot where there are more normal moving horses in WP? I don’t know. The cripple-walk stuff is what I see, both online and at my local shows.
Sorry, he wouldn’t cut it in an English class in a QH show either. He’ just not the right type. He looks to be a rope/ranch horse type. Not to say he’s not a nice horse, he’s just not `typey’ enough for the ring classes like HUS or WP.
Are there other photos or a video maybe? Hard to tell since a photo is just a split second in time, I mean I am sure there are photos of others in WP (twisted wire)snaffle classes see-sawing the shit out of their horses mouth. I’ve seen that on the futurity horses that won the blues. She has nice turnout, the horse is clean, her tack and clothing is nice, polished hooves.
Sorry, that is just TOOO funny!!
The horse BUCKED in the class, AND ran off!!!! She honestly expected to place with that crap?
She looks ok on the horse…….
For an english rider……
And even then her position isn’t that great.
If you are talking “english” at an American show, I could not say. In England she would be laughed out of the ring…..
She would not place in a Dressage, Hunter Flat or English Equitation class in the States either. She is tipped forward on the balls of her feet, holding onto the horse’s mouth–my trainer (or any worth their salt) would swat me upside the head if I rode like that, let alone entered a class and did so.
I have ridden Hunters and/or Dressage for 20 plus years, and this wouldn’t fly in any ring I’ve been in.
I do not do breed shows however.
Sure I’ve seen judge’s discrimination, I’ve been at the receiving end a couple of times but these are at the local shows, the larger the show I competed in (nothing higher than a B show) the less the bias there was present.
I used to show a faster POA gelding. He had an amazingly smooth gait and wonderful transitions (usually, that was one of his problems, that and liking to chew my boots in the line up.) In the videos you can see in the small shows where the judges who only wanted leggy brown TBs looked right past this little pony. Once we did the bigger shows we were getting plenty of attention, placing reserve with a state-winning hunter ridden by a friend as the champion. She deserved it, yes her horse was a push button but I bombed the over fences class and she sailed cleanly through.
The past summer I rode in a schooling show I’d never been to before with a judge I’d never shown with on a mare I had worked with all summer. We did well in equitation but once her friends showed up (she talked to them the entire class about their classes and ponies and other friends) we were bumped out of the rankings. The owner of the pony I was riding was peeved beyond belief.
For all the low-level bias I’ve seen, I’ve seen some outstanding judging too. A local 4H club sponsors a horse show at the town fair each August. One year one of my father’s coworkers had me take her latest purchase in the Older Jr W/T/J division. I’d only ridden him for 15 mn before and she was told not to canter him. He wasn’t the perfect darling I’d like (in the one class we didn’t get 1st he spent the entire time bucking, perfectly understandable to not place) but I smiled my little heart out and kept him at a nice working hunter tempo and cleaned up against the slow as molasses 4H pleasure riders. I now have a lovely trophy chair in my apartment as a reminder.
What are the chances of a link to that board to read more…
See (and I’m totally new to the whole game) when I look at him I see a roper or working cow because of his massive chest. Nice thick legs too he can probably move. When I try to picture him w/ English tack, its like trying to imagine Hoss Cartwright in breeches & hunt cap…
LOL!!!! Picturing a “Big & Tall” store for hunt attire, as the lastest get-rich-quick scheme.
I think there is some valid show-bitching.
Peanut rolling WP horses that were never a pleasure to ride and look like drugged horse-zombies….
TWHBEA judging standards that reward horses that cannot perform the signature gait of the breed, and have to put shit on their feet to fake it….. The entire Park performance/Plantation show standards (or lack thereof).
Some Arab and some Andalusian halter showing practices and standards (I’ve seen both good and bad rewarded).
2 year old futurities, which incite people to get 18 month olds under saddle, and reward them over more responsible 2 year old classes, which should be IN HAND, for the most part.
No one here will disagree with you that there are some bad, bad things that go on in the show ring and in show barns. Conversely, complaining to this extent when you do not have your horse basically broke (i.e. he is blowing leads, bucking, etc.) just makes you look like a twit and has nothing to do with the specifics of whether or not the current western pleasure standard is correct. 30 years ago, when a higher headed horse could win, they STILL did not buck, blow leads or need a tight rein.
I really do challenge anyone to find me a picture of a winning WP horse from the 60s or 70s going on that snug of a rein.
“I really do challenge anyone to find me a picture of a winning WP horse from the 60s or 70s going on that snug of a rein.”
Hee! That would be hard, because those were the days when the style was to have the reins hanging below the KNEES — the horses certainly went with a natural carriage, but reins were expensive because they had to be about 12 feet long …
FOTD, you stink. Now look what you made me do??!!
Sighs~ alright, I did the darn search. This horse was born in 1960, so I’m assuming she’s riding in the 60′s.
That’s a link to a picture of Roca Girl, a mare in this pedigree:
http://www.planetaccess.net/dangerranch/dangerranch/foal/Vspedigree.htm
I win a cookie, right?!
Head’s up – but are the reins tight?
Nope.
Now THAT looks like a happy horse! Nice, light contact with the reins, but the horses head and ears are up and she is moving out nice and looks like she is having fun. Even I will admit, a slightly lower (ever so slightly) head and a little more bend at the poll would creat a nicer look, but she looks like she is enjoying herself!
I showed in the 70′s what was typically referred to as simply “equitation” what is now called rail classes or performance. It was anything that wasn’t a gymkana, or what we now call a playday or gaming. God the costumes, and yes they were really costumes, we awful, but the horses really were so much more natural. Manes were not pulled to an inch of their life, tails were allowed to move and gaits were normal, natural gaits, just a bit slower and more refined than what you might see out on the trail.
And don’t forget the lovely buckstitched tack! Somewhere at my parents’ house there’s a pair of bright blue suede buckstitched chaps from the 70′s!
True, the topline is not “rounded” or even level, and the rider does have (soft) contact–but she’s not leaning forward with water-ski legs, and I love how the horse’s hindquarters are tracking up and pushing from behind, you can see those muscles working.
Still, you get a cookie—I’m sending you a virtual chocolate-chip.
I agree with Fugs – the key here is the bit. If you look you will see it is not engaged.
The lack of the public’s ability to identify a tight vs loose rein is a symptom of mis-information regarding horsemanship or lack there of. Until this is remedied the negative views of Western Pleasure and other specialized equine events that the general public does not fully understand will continue. It took me years YEARS to understand WP and I have a lot of learning left to do – coming from an hunter/dressage background, it took me just as long to learn what WP was about as it took me to grasp some of the more complex theories of dressage.
That being said without aiming to personally insult anyone on here – I don’t look at a equine discipline and say “Ewwww! I don’t like what I am seeing it makes no sense to me so therefore I don’t like it!!!” Instead if I don’t like something or don’t understand an event or riding style I try to learn all I can about it – in an attempt to understand it, maybe even trying it myself before casting judgment.
Watching western pleasure is almost painful sometimes… the four beat canter makes me cringe. Always seems so un-natural. Almost like the horse is lame. But hey, to each their own. I think I’ll pass though.
I agree with what the complainer said about WP, but when I first saw her picture I did not expect the article to be about western pleasure unless the photo was 30 years old. Even reining horses or cow horses work on a loose rein. For cripes sake I run barrels on a loose rein. I have photos of me winning rodeos with only two fingers on the reins. That horse doesn’t look like he is even well broke.
When I got back into horses after a 20-plus-year hiatus, I decided I wanted to “do dressage” because I LIKE a horse to be “in the bridle” and hated the crippled gaits of today’s pleasure classes. I had shown in AQHA English Pleasure and Bridle Path Hack in the mid-70s and toward the end of my showing career at that time sat in the lineup watching horses trained in the “new and from the East Coast” gimpy gaiters get pinned over those of us who had horses that were in the bridle and traveling “pure.”
Because dressage scoring is as subjective as ANY horse show class — with the exception of events where time and knockdowns count — but because each horse-and-rider is scored individually with comments, I read those comments to learn from them, and then share them with my teachers so they can help me improve “the next time.”
I received my first 4 on the “chewy circle,” where the comment was “no stretch shown,” and the following lesson my instructor and I spent the entire 45 minutes on getting the horse on contact so when I DID the chewy circle, he DID stretch down and out. The result? No more 4s ;o)
I guess if someone’s livelihood as trainer or breeder depended on points and scores and ribbons and honors — the “show record” — they feel the need to vent when they’ve spent a bundle and come home empty-handed. However, while I do not participate in those “World Show” venues and have to stop and think about what the “alphabet soup” of organizations means, I knew by looking at the picture that the rider and horse each had issues, and if this was a pleasure class of any kind, whatever the photographer caught “wasn’t it.” Yes, photos are “one moment in time,” and for awhile about five years ago all the pictures of biggie dressage trainers riding horses behind the vertical were dismissed as “it’s just that one photo.” After awhile people had LOTS of photos of those trainers and for some there were BUNCHES of photos showing them riding every horse behind the vertical. These “records” showed that there was something missing in the horses’ training (or the trainers’ methods), proving that their horses were NOT “on contact” or “connected” or “through,” words dressage people appreciate when it comes to a horse following the training pyramid correctly.
Moaning and groaning and finding excuses for failure is best left to children. In the horse show world as with horses themselves, “sh*t happens” and the mature among us learn from our mistakes and move on. If a judge is an idiot, don’t show under him/her again. Keep learning, keep riding and have faith in your ability to learn and improve. Remember that on any given day, the least likely horse can beat the world champion. A 100-1 longshot named Upset handed Man o’ War his only defeat.
Okay, I’m completely ignorant on this topic but, don’t you have to QUALIFY for World’s? If this picture reflects the truth and this is how the horse AND rider show, then how did they qualify for World’s? I disagree with the poster’s saying that she looks like a 4-H rider. 4-H riders in this area would kick her butt in the show ring!
It was ABRA (Buckskin). You don’t have to qualify for that, you can just show up – so there’s no weeding out process at all.
oh, that explains it. I was wondering the same thing… how did she qualify and NOT know what they would be looking for?!
She has a Facebook page for the horse, it’s name is “Golden Smooth Da Mitt” (???). Among other things, it says “Son of ABRA Hi-Point earner Zippodocs Pretty Boy, and barrel racing performer Shi April Spring”. Yeah, REALLY sounds like it is bred to do western pleasure, doesn’t it?? There were YouTube videos of the horse on the Facebook page at one time, but they seem to have been pulled. They basically consisted of the horse running around with its head in the air while she sawed at its mouth with the snaffle bit. My friend’s ex-roping horse is more of a western pleasure horse than this stud who needs to be a gelding.
See, I think it’s one thing when someone with a SLIGHTLY faster horse, who IS traveling more “clean” complains about the current style of western pleasure…they may have a valid argument, assuming their horse is equally consistent as the four-beaters and also going on a soft rein and level or near level. But usually these rants come, instead, from someone whose horse just isn’t broke. They did not put in the work, or they did not know how. He may be a very nice trail horse but in a show ring, he is lapping everybody, on the wrong lead or switching, careens around corners/no bend, doesn’t give to the bit at all, etc. No, if your horse goes like that, you do not get to scream that the whole standard is wrong. That was NEVER the standard – not in 1960, not in 1980, not now. I am old enough to remember when they went higher and they were STILL slow and in control!
This kind of attitude is crippling to someone who wants to show. Trainers don’t want people like this in their barn. If you want to show in an organization then you have to ride by the rules of the organization. Win for awhile, be friendly, act like a professional, make some friends, then try to push for changes.
I’d loved to know what AQHA shows she has placed at. I like to go to those kind of shows to gather easy points.
Well, I was pretty confused today. First I read what Fugs said about people who complain about judging. I agree with the two excuses she gave, BUT I think they only apply to about 50% of the people who don’t show. The rest really ARE sick to the back teeth of the political side of it, and the abusive trainers.
Then I started reading the lady’s rant about how her class went. As I was reading, I thought, “I don’t get it. Sounds like she’s got a legitimate beef here. I think WP and Wenglish classes with their suffering robo-horses are jokes, too. Why the condemnation from Fugs?”
Then I looked at the photo. Even I, who have never ridden anything but English HS in my life, can tell that as is NOT a typical or remotely appropriate WP ride (once in a blue moon I will torture myself by watching a class in person or on YouTube, accompanied by lots of caffeine). No pleasure horse of any breed/discipline is supposed to compete on a taut rein, for starters.
Finally, I read the rest of Fug’s commentary, about how the horse actually behaved in the class. Well, okay, now his non-placement is really making sense.
So I really went around the block with my thoughts on this. In the end, I think the lady was cuckoo if she thought she could march in the ring on her cute but badly-behaved, poorly-trained and poorly-presented stud and get a ribbon. On the other hand, I certainly sympathize with her complaints about the other horses not doing the proper gaits (NO, THEY DON’T and it pisses me off!) or not making transitions and reverses when asked.*
* And WTF is up with that, anyway? I have definitely noticed it in my infrequent viewings of WP classes. Somebody said “the quality of the reverse/transition is more important than the speed,” or something like that? Well, I don’t see where it makes a helluva lot of difference if the damn horse is barely moving anyway. Not to mention how it drags the classes out even looooonnnnggggeeerrrrr. All I know is, in the rings where I’ve showed, you make your changes as soon and and as neatly as possible, or you are penalized by the judges. Yes, they should look nice, but by golly, I think it shows respect to the judges when you do as you’re told when you’re told. Also, my trainer would have had my head if I’d dilly-dallied!
The discussion thread: http://ta-in.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=5412002358&topic=8584
I can’t afford a trainer…:0( but would love one someday…
You should do a “list” of trainers that ARE ok to send the horses too…(tried out ones)
for certain events…for each state…*not that you don’t have anything to do:0)
A judge is just that…its an opinion of that day…
Yep, heard lots of what started out to sound legitimate complaints, unless I saw the class myself, or until I saw the photos or video. Reminded me once of letter that was sent to the Arabian Horse World Magazine. The letter went on and on from an exhibitor about how well their stallion did, how much better it was than the other, yet it didn’t even place. The letter writer and owner of the stallion complained about the judging, complained about the other exhibitors, the show ring, the staff, the whole show industry. The letter was followed the next month with a letter written in response by one of the judges who judged his class. I give him brownie points by being so carefully professional in his response. He “suggested” that is wasn’t a good thing to have your stallion screaming and wagging his weenie thru the whole class. We went on to explain why this person’s stallion did not belong in the class yet, as well as why he didn’t place. I am sure, years later, that new-to-showing-on-a breed level stallion owner was mortified that they would even consider gripping, but as the time, he knew his stallion was the best one in the class and surely EVERYONE involved was in a plot against his horse. In reality, everyone was probably doing their best to dodge their screaming loon and keeping their mare’s rear ends away from him.
On a person note, I once was an exhibitor myself and my horse just happend to have won all his classes. At lunch time, I sat in the stands eatting my lunch while sitting behind two ladies who were complaining to each other about how the judging was so “fixed”. It was wonderful, knowing that it was ME that they were talking about – a no body on a no body horse, who just happened to have worked very hard to win their classes!!!
LOL….that must have been great. You should have said something!
Reminds of the time I went in my very first horse trials.
I was 14 and riding a kindly old schoolie (“Possum”) who knew the drill. I have a couple of photos from the dressage phase and boy they were horrible! Above the bit, cruising through corners, me up there stiff as a board.
In stadium phase (which at most lower level horse trials comes second, so that if you’re really horrible at jumping they can eliminate you right then and there before letting you loose on a cross-country course) Possum was a good old boy and took me around the course smoothly.
Later my sister told me that there was a guy watching me, the father of a little girl who was INFAMOUS at our local shows. This guy would buy his YOUNG daughter (I don’t know, 7 or 8 years old?) some random hot headed TB horses and they would careen around courses totally out of control. The little girl was something to see, she was really fearless, but without any skill or finesse or control! Everyone always gasped and winced watching her, it was really frightening how out of control her horses were, and to watch this little girl flying by the seat of her pants. Her father had such an ego and no concern for his daughter’s safety. We always commented that if she didn’t DIE, she could grow up to be a great rider.
Well he was watching me on my stadium course and was bitching about how I was clearly just at the beginner novice level to win a ribbon, I should be competing the next level up, leave this level to the kids, etc etc.
Dude, it was my FIRST event. Just because I wasn’t careening out of control didn’t mean I wasn’t showing at an appropriate level. Yeah me and my schoolie made it around clean but at the end of the day we placed I think 15th out of 17 competitors. I was just happy not to be last!
Funny… but she is exactly right in what she says
- wait to change gait or direction until the judge isn’t looking
- slower than molasses at all 3 gaits
- about half trollop in my area – central Illinois
I don’t show it, I watch and talk shit from the rail while waiting for it to even be time to start thinking about getting ready for my class.
The other thing… WP classes are huge where I’m at, barrel racing not so much. One time in 2 years we had over 20 in any barrel class. No cow events. Soo there are days where it doesn’t take much to win these classes. My boyfriend’s horse has a couple of AQHA show pole bending wins on his record but no points because there weren’t enough in the class!
Regarding the ‘waiting to reverse’ syndrome you see in WP classes– it has to do with spacing. You need to prepare your horse to turn (a sudden signal can cause it to be off balanced– it’s not easy to balance with your head that low!), and you need to pick a spot where the judge can actually see you. This is actually something I’ve worked on repeatedly with my students. A reverse is a brilliant chance to make sure you are no longer next to that nutty stallion, or that kid whose horse is dancing and rearing as it jogs around the ring. This is more important in a WP class because they move SLOOOOOoooOOOoooooWly. You get hidden by another horse going around the ring, you might stay that way for half the class.
Reverses are used for spacing in other classes, but in HUS, for example, your horses move out a little faster, so you have a better chance of adjusting yourself on the rail in your regular gaits.
Pausing before picking up a gait when it’s called by the announcer also has a purpose. It shows the judges that the horse is responding to YOU, not the announcer. It also teaches the horse to respond to you, not the announcer, lol. And yes, they really can learn to listen and respond to the call, instead of the cue. And of course, it can be used for that ever important spacing on the rail.
And a horse that literally crawls in its gaits is a dream to ride in a horsemanship pattern. You have tons of time to prepare for each manuever!
Oh yea, and I feel your pain on the small contesting classes here in the Midwest. I think it’s because people can make such good money at the open shows. It’s hard to justify paying hundreds of dollars to compete at an official AQHA show, when you could instead be EARNING hundreds of dollars competing at a local open show.
I am glad you addressed that – thank you! I think to the extreme it’s a fault but when you have a show that doesn’t want to pay the judge “overtime” so instead of splitting classes they cram as many horses as they possibly can in each class, spacing is important. If everyone is “nose to tail” and you JUMP into a lope the SECOND the gait is called you might end up loping up someone else’s “you know what” which is not good horsemanship and is frowned upon by everyone. I will hang back if I have no clear opening and wait for the horse ahead of me to “lope off” before I give the “ok” for my horse to lope. Your only other option is to hop off the rail, lope off, and be forever stuck out there off the rail. This is also frowned upon as you are block the judges view of other horses – annoying for the judges and other competitors alike. It also gives the false impression that your horse is running off – loping or trotting a smaller inside circle will make it appear as if you are moving faster when in-fact you are not. Instead of focusing on your ride, you focus on how you can get back to the rail and out of everyone’s way. It’s a lose – lose situation.
As an Australian I have just watched my first ever WP horse eventing on youtube to understand what you are all going on about with this tranter 4 beat canter stuff.
And OMFG if I ever saw my horse moving like that I would be calling the vet immediately. So very wrong.. They look like 80 year old arthritis cases which should be in the back paddock buted up to their eyeballs enjoying a fat happy and painfree retirement.
Why on earth would anyone want to ride something that moves like a arthritic crab?
“arthritic crab”
I like that.
If I was just handed her photo and asked what class it looked like she competes in, I would have guessed barrel racing and maybe even what barrel racing looked like in the 70′s. Even barrel racers have improved their equitation in the hope of faster times. Her horse looks like it’s just waiting for the cue to “RUN” and she looks like she’s braced for the take off so she isn’t left behind. Unfortunatly, a free down-the-trail trot is not what is placing in the show ring regardless how stupid you might that the current trend of a trot that looks more like a walk and a lope that looks like “trope”. You have to be doing what the winners are doing to be a winner. Imagine that.
Definitely looks like she needs some lessons and better fitting tack, but I have to admit the WP horses these days do not in any way look natural or look like they would be a pleasure to ride. I used to ride WP in the 70′s and remember that even though the horses were ridden on a loose rein and still had slow gaits, they looked way more balanced then they do now. One reason I show dressage is that even though its as subjective as any other type of discipline, you get instant feedback from the judge on the execution of each movement of the test, which to me, is way more valuable then just getting pinned. Of course, there is no way you’re going to get the same scores or move up the levels with a ‘square peg’ (which in dressage, would be a horse more suitable for WP) as you would with a fancy, pricey warmblood that’s built for the sport, but even a horse that’s built a little downhill can do reasonably well at the lower schooling show levels if he is well trained and the test is ridden accurately. I once, even got high score for a season schooling show series on my peanut-roller TB mare at Training Level.
I recently attended a non-dressage english schooling show, and noticed that the judge selected the same horse to place first in every class. It was a stock horse type, and even though I tried to objectively watch the classes to understand why this horse was continuously placing first, I did not see how this horse appeared to have an outstanding or extraordinary performance in every class compared to the rest of the participants. Its almost like the judge selected 1 horse at the beginning of the show to place first and she stuck with that decision the entire show. To bad the judge is not required to comment on each horse’s performance in the western or english ride-around-the-arena classes, so that the riders who ride in other disciplines can get as much insight from showing as we dressage riders do. Of course, having someone video you as well as videoing other horses in the class helps. Its amazing how easy it is to forget the occasional buck or head fling during a ride, until you watch the video afterward. I’ve often realized why I got the score I got after watching the video.
It would be nice if reasons were given at the end of classes, by the judge, as he is placing the class, just like they do in a livestock class. As the judge announces the winners he is telling you why, and then goes on to compare first to second and second to third, down the line through the ribbons. It may be a tough thing for some people to hear, but I think it might clear up some of the mystery we have all seen as we sit and watch and think “what was he thinking?” It would not add that much time to the whole process and would definately add some value.
My non-horsey mom saw a photo of one of the first “peanut rollers” in a magazine.. Her comment? “What is wrong with that horse and why is that man rideing it in that condition!” Still fits today.
It’s so annoying when people say, oh, showing is so political, I don’t even bother. And then go and breed a bunch of crap horses and train a bunch of crappy students that never make it anywhere because they never learned how to show! What the hell is that all about anyways. I definitely can’t afford to show anymore outside of IHSA, but if I could, I totally would be! And I wouldn’t dream of calling myself a trainer unless I had tons of competitive experience. This lady is dumb. She is lucky that she can afford to go to all these fancy shows and make a name for herself, maybe she should actually learn how to work within the system instead of throwing a hissy fit every time she doesn’t get her way.
WOW! That is a complete trainwreck! First of all, her turnout isn’t anywhere near what it should be for a World Show, color breed or not. This woman couldn’t compete at the backyard open shows in my area, let alone the World.
Additionally, people like this have NO BUSINESS owning stallions (not to mention that the horse in that picture has no business even BEING a stallion). And she has slightly more business owning a stallion than she does being a trainer!
She needs to sell out and buy a Breyer or sit in the bleachers at the World for a few years and get her shit together before she goes online saying the judging was unfair.
Yeah…I am not going to even pretend that I was a good rider back in the day when I was leasing my POS trainer’s mare. however, the horses that were rearing, spinning and cantering backwards shouldn’t have placed. Did I earn my non-placement? Most likely. But the judges should have chosen a better top 6 for the hunter show. Does it show skillful riding when your horse misbehaves and you don’t eat dirt? Absolutely. But that shouldn’t HELP you at a show.
Besides, the new riding just means to get on and go, you are the best of the best, you know everything and who needs a trainer? If you don’t place it’s because the judge is biased/having a bad day/blind, not because you don’t know what you’re doing.
Examples of a train wreck waiting to happen: http://www.angelfire.com/picchick/acton09B/index.html (the site owner is not affiliated with the facility that “trained” these students – just takes pictures). These kids should totally place! They didn’t fall off, right?
Hee hee! Look at that bum-in-the-air, nose-in-the-air jumping style! They look so silly – but at least you can spot all the trainer’s students without any problems!
Ignoring all the bad, I like the horse’s carriage, and the fact that his tail is obviously not blocked. If I was AQHA dictator, I’d mandate eyes level with withers. Or range it between the poll and the nostril. (AQHA because where they lead, the other registries follow.)
Until I read the remarks from the observers, I thought she had a legitimate gripe, about what places, even if she was somewhat whiny and bitchy. But pleasure by definition doesn’t include bucking and having to keep pressure on the reins!
Maybe someday the scientists will find an application of stem cells that will make people ethical, and we can shoot all the judges with it. Until then, we’ll just have to keep griping about bad judging.
What about the snaffle bit and WP classes being combined, though? Was that OK, or should they have stayed split?
Ruthie
Here’s a link to “Blame-Thrower’s” original post on the ABRA’s Facebook page (may have to be a Facebook member to view).
http://ta-in.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=5412002358&topic=8584
Did anyone else notice that her horse’s name is “Damit?” LOL.
reminds me of my dad’s horse. his lovely nickname is F**ker, and he’s earned it. literally every single person who has ridden him has called him that at least once.
My favorite is that she is so ignorant about it, and that she is showing off this picture.
http://www.myspace.com/ryansmynorthstar
It is her myspace picture.
also, here is her response to all of the feedback people posted:
“First of all, “Damit” is my parent’s horse, not mine and I met him for the first time on Wednesday. Second, I’m not upset about his placing, or lack there of. I’m upset because horses who should have been disqualified for not performing the required gaits were placing. I’m a judge, and one of the things that is emphasized at our judges seminars is not placing horses who “peanut roll,” “wog,” and/or “trope.”
Unlike the rest of you, placing and points don’t mean a damn thing to me. I use shows as an evaluation of a horse’s training, so I know where a horse needs improvement. If you put a 2-year-old horse in a 2-year-old halter class, you’re on the same level as everyone else, and you know were you need to improve. However, you want to know where you need to improve in a riding class, and the majority of the class is doing something against the rules, you don’t know where you need improvement.
Something that I see quite a bit of is that people in the Midwest don’t know what a TRUE Western Pleasure horse is. Us ranchers out here can give you all an education, and I guarantee none of your horses can keep up with our ranch horses. And as far as my parent’s horse is concerned, he was bred to be a performance horse. I showed his sire in reining, and his dam in barrels, and World was his very first show under saddle, so all of you can just kiss my Rocky Mountain Ass!”
So she is a judge now? i thought she bred and trained? I dont remember her saying ANYTHING about being a judge… And whats the deal now? she knows pleasure horses? If it is to evaluate the horse’s training, then why does she care that she didnt win? If he was bucking (as was posted before) then there is something to work on. as well as not looking like you are trying to hold him back from exploding into a gallop.
I’d like to hear your guys’ comments on this too
Here is the link if you want to check it out:
http://ta-in.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=5412002358&topic=8584
I want to ad one more thing…
She met this horse for the first time the day of, yet she is a trainer, and wants to know where she can improve this horse’s training?
just take the loss and keep working. or even better, HIRE A TRAINER. If she breeds these horses that she is showing, why has she never met this horse before?
Seeing her name, I can now understand her attitude. She’s a spoiled “rich” kid, and her comments make her live up to that perception. She comes from a well-off family, so I’m assuming she probably usually places in any local shows she goes to. Unfortunately, who you are and who you know at open shows in WI., has a huge bearing on how you place. I’ve been seeing it for years, and even though I know what it’s like locally, I still decided to get back into showing this year, at the ripe old age of 53…LOL If I end up being competitive, great, but I really just want to do something with my horses, that I work so hard for all year long. I will not let the “local” politics get to me. I WILL HAVE FUN!!! That’s what it’s all about for me.
Interesting thing is, her last reply on the Facebook discussion:
“First of all, “Damit” is my parent’s horse, not mine and I met him for the first time on Wednesday. Second, I’m not upset about his placing, or lack there of. I’m upset because horses who should have been disqualified for not performing the required gaits were placing. I’m a judge, and one of the things that is emphasized at our judges seminars is not placing horses who “peanut roll,” “wog,” and/or “trope.”
Unlike the rest of you, placing and points don’t mean a damn thing to me. I use shows as an evaluation of a horse’s training, so I know where a horse needs improvement. If you put a 2-year-old horse in a 2-year-old halter class, you’re on the same level as everyone else, and you know were you need to improve. However, you want to know where you need to improve in a riding class, and the majority of the class is doing something against the rules, you don’t know where you need improvement.
Something that I see quite a bit of is that people in the Midwest don’t know what a TRUE Western Pleasure horse is. Us ranchers out here can give you all an education, and I guarantee none of your horses can keep up with our ranch horses. And as far as my parent’s horse is concerned, he was bred to be a performance horse. I showed his sire in reining, and his dam in barrels, and World was his very first show under saddle, so all of you can just kiss my Rocky Mountain Ass!”
So she’s not just a trainer, she’s also a judge? Interrrrresting. And why on earth would you make a horse’s FIRST show under saddle the WORLD show? And why would you show a reining/speed bred horse in a PLEASURE class? Makes no sense to me…I mean, I’m quite sure none o four pleasure horses CAN keep up with your ranch horses. That’s pretty much not the POINT of a pleasure class?!
Wow.
Shoulders back. Relax your hands, SOFTEN, get OUT of that horse’s face.
I’d love to set my trainer on her.
I’ve ridden a couple of horses who go level, long and low naturally…wow. One of them is an awesome little Paint pony, maybe fourteen hands. Goes long and low, slow, laid back temperament…his only fault is that he doesn’t always go forward because he’s lazy. But he’s far more a pleasure horse than whatever she’s riding.
isint it great to have a natural?.my arab is that way hes not the typical high headed crazy horse you think of when you hear arabian. hes got a natural low head set and he floats across the ground its a great ride! i have gotten ALOT of complements on him over the years.only thing he will not do is halter class he HATES halter class!
i hate the state of western pleasure classes. despite the addition of the extended jog, i don’t see a difference in the way the horses are moving. and as far as i can see, they’re still pinning horses with 4-beat lopes. but… that’s why i choose not to show western pleasure. it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. if, for some reason, i did decide to show western pleasure with a horse that did a true extended job and a 3-beat lope, i wouldn’t whine because we didn’t place, i would think of it instead as my own way of making a statement.
Better to pin a horse that makes a mistake than one that is a mistake. I can’t claim credit for that one, but it sure is true
I stopped riding for a good 20 years but just got back to it and bought a reining horse. When I was a kid my barn was all about WP. This last year I started riding again I would hear the barn folks gripe about WP and have no respect when I actually went on youtube and saw the state of affairs I was like, wow was it always that boring or is it just cause I’ve moved on.
It’s funny to look at this lady’s facebook page for “Dammit” on the 1st year under saddle album and see other horses in the ring with their heads down quiet. Every shot her studs head is up in the air, so it’s not even that one picture. Sorry I couldn’t post the shots directly before she yanks em.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3790728&id=204870175822
Save for a few, he looks miserable and/or uncomfortable.
I can’t believe she didn’t at least trim & band his mane. I mean, I’m pretty sure it’s not a rule, but if you have a horse that maybe isn’t as well trained as the other horses you do NOT want to stand out by being the only horse in the class with a long, unbanded mane. He’s a cute horse though and he seems friendly. He should go do something fun, like roping or barrels.
judging by the picture i would say she needs to relax! shes got a death grip on that horse and is leaning forward.
honestly i dont do much showing and know squat but i do know a few things that my trusty arab and trainer friend has taught me and that is to just relax!. if you just relax and dont think about it the horse will do the same. my arab placed 6th in a HUGE western pleasure class full of quarter horses and paints!. he was wearing mismatched tack with no bling or silver on it. it was both of ours very first show. i only went for the experience i rode him in that arena not really trying just enjoying the ride enjoying that we made it that far to be in the show ring. i so unexpected to place that they called my name twice!. i have learned from him if i go into the ring all jittery and nervous he is jittery and nervous if i am relaxed and calm he rides like butter. sorry to ramble on thats just the first thing that comes to mind when i see that picture. i know some horses are more talented at some things then others but this looks like rider error to me
Ok, so I just read her response to some of the comments on her facebook page, and here are some of the more entertaining things she said:
-”First of all, “Damit” is my parent’s horse, not mine and I met him for the first time on Wednesday.”
So he’s named Damit? I wonder how he got that name… maybe because that’s all his “trainers” had to say when they couldn’t get him to do anything. A name like that is just setting yousefl up for disaster. Also, you just met him a few days ago and you expect him to perform perfectly for you? Maybe you should learn more about horses, because most of them don’t work that way.
-”Unlike the rest of you, placing and points don’t mean a damn thing to me. I use shows as an evaluation of a horse’s training, so I know where a horse needs improvement.”
Then why are you complaing!? If you did this show so that you could evaluate his training, then maybe you should start. Because i think the evaluation came back loud and clear with a big fat sentence saying: NEEDS MORE TRAINING.
-”However, you want to know where you need to improve in a riding class, and the majority of the class is doing something against the rules, you don’t know where you need improvement.”
So thats why. Well for someone who rode her horse soooooo amazingly well that she should have won a world title, you sure didn’t focus on the horse much. I don’t know about everbody else, but when i show, i just focus on what i’m doing, what the horse is doing, and what the judge is doing. I’m practically blind to everbody else.
-”Something that I see quite a bit of is that people in the Midwest don’t know what a TRUE Western Pleasure horse is. Us ranchers out here can give you all an education, and I guarantee none of your horses can keep up with our ranch horses.”
I’m fairly sure that there are quite a few very successful WP horses in the midwest. And it looks like all of them just beat you. Sorry Princess, but the results of that show speak louder than your whiney words. And ifyou’re so good at ranch work, then why aren’t you showing in something that highlights your skills?
-”World was his very first show under saddle, so all of you can just kiss my Rocky Mountain Ass!”
Again, I don’t know about anybody else, but i don’t ever expect a horse to win in it’s first show under saddle. In a horse’s first show, all i care about is that they are listening to me and trying. Maybe miss Princess expects them to be perfect little robots right off the bat, but in reality, that’s not how horses work, at least not most of them.
What’s funny though is in her original rant she says “My stud has placed in the top 2 at Futurities, AQHA shows, and Open shows performing the same way he did today.” So how could that have been his first show under saddle if he was perfoming exactly as he did in previous shows?
I thought the photo was going to be an example to prove her case – you know to say, look at this crap, this is what won. Then I realized that is a picture of little miss whiney pants. I’m no horse show judge but I can see why you didn’t place…
Having said that, the gaits the horses are exhibiting in the WP classes are freaky and unnatural and unfortunately, that is what is placing. If you want to play the game, you have to play by the rules, regardless of how stupid you think they are. Otherwise, move on to another game.
That’s about it, and as I noted:
THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER CLASSES. You do not have to go in WP if you think it is dumb or disagree with the current standard. GO IN SOMETHING ELSE.
regarding the horse, he is cute with a nice kind eye! I like him. If I owned him I would geld him and see what a professional reining trainer or cow horse trainer could do with him.
regarding the rider, if she wants to show western pleasure, she needs to get some lessons on how to ride western pleasure on a well trained western pleasure horse. This will help her develop her skills so that when she purchases a horse that is trained to show western pleasure she has her equitation skills down to be able to show and compete, then I feel she will get the results she is looking for. Horses are like children, you can either make them into what you want them to be or you can see what their potential is and let them excel in that area.
I for one can not stand western pleasure classes which is why I would never show in one. I can’t stand all the bling bling that is very distracting and its more of a fashion show rather than a horse show. I think everyone should have to wear all black with no silver allowed…..this way the horse stands out and no one is blinded by the 50lbs of extra silver! But this is just my opinon
)
And that’s why ranch horse association is getting more popular. No bling allowed. Working tack, well groomed but no makeup on the horses, neatly dressed rider with no $500 outfits.
“First of all, the Snaffle Bit classes were being judged at the same time as the JR western pleasure classes. I’m still not sure how the judges are able to judge 2 classes at the same time. I’ll admit, I’m not familiar with NSBA rules, but common sense says, if you’re competing in a “Snaffle Bit†class, you should be using a “snaffle bit†on your horse, not a curb.”
LET ME GUESS: She was showing in Jr. WP and it was a dual-approved NSBA class…not two separate classes. Probably not a good sign that she doesn’t even fully understand what class she’s in. Might want to check up on stuff like that before she bashes the show, judges and other competitors.
Wow, I looked better than this lady when I was showing lead line as a 5 year old child. Thanks for the laugh!
OT but I have a new (put it on my mare once to check the fit… it didn’t) size 72 medium weight (450 denier, 300g fill) waterproof turnout blanket that I’m looking to donate, any suggestions as to where it should go?
Here is a link to it (different size): http://cgi.ebay.com/Horse-Blanket-Medium-Weight-Water-Proof-Polka-Dots-81_W0QQitemZ270501716125QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efb28a09d
Sorry it’s so long!
Ok so the link attached to my username goes to some stranger’s photography blog- not mine. I’m trying to fix it, but in the mean time if you want to contact me about the blanket please go through: http://www.latokarla.blogspot.com. Thx!
You know, I havnt been ON a horse in 10 years. And I never did more than trail riding, and Ive never taken lessons and I do not compete, BUT even I could see that THAT was not appropraite for western pleasure, hell western ANYTHING. Loose rein loose rein loose rein! In every western event I have ever seen the rider looks relaxed and at ease, the horses movement look effortless and easy and natural. Theres nothing about that picture that looks easy. *sighs* And that horse looks very uncomfortable. And then to wine about it.. Anyone know how old this person was?
Just a minor quibble, but I’m very puzzled that this lady complains that Midwesterners don’t know anything about Western pleasure, and that those who criticize her can “kiss her Rock Mountain ass.” Yet her page shows that she lives in Wisconsin. Was I totally asleep all through third grade US geography class?
When I saw the video of the woging troping “pleasure horse” class..
My first thought was…were the horses limping/??
How in the heck do you train a horse to do that and WHY…
That is why I stick to english for showing… good ole boring, traditional black boots, tan/white/gray breeches
white or other nuetral color shirt and dark colored coat…
It won’t ever go out of style…EVER…
LOL
egads… but I am sure she has not helped her horse by starting him at 18 months like most other people and then in a few years when he needs hock injections, or nerve blockers for navicular.. we will see another whiny letter on how horrible her breed is to do this to their horses….
ACK
Carol
Wow, I don’t even like WP and I wouldn’t give her a ribbon for the class just based on that pic. I much preferred how the horses travelled before the whole peanut roller phase even existed. They were natural, controlled, and cadenced without being manufactured. This mare won grand champion in men’s western pleasure at the 1978 Appaloosa world show moving just like she is in this pic and with the same rider.
http://s551.photobucket.com/albums/ii462/smrobs/Old%20Pictures/?action=view¤t=MightyDialette.jpg
I can appreciate the smoother travelling horses and wanting to have that nice controlled jog. I train my horses for it but I still want it to be natural and cover some ground. I like those horses that you can actually use for something other than looking uncomfortable in the show pen.
Sorry for the wonky camera angle. I guess the chute it was sitting on wasn’t level.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf27p_Ofg3w
I think we should just learn from experience and take it as that instead of complaining about it. ialways tell myself I will improve to make myself better for the next time, Iwill work on what I need to. It helps if you have someone there to tell you why and what you need to do instead. I think the judges have their job to do. They are going to place accordingly to what they feel. Every type of association or club have their own set of rules. If you dont know then you better find out before yu go into the ring. If something doesnt seem right then ask questions. Dont go on the net and say this is wrong and thats wrong without knowing anything about it. It just makes you look…well you know. I think keeping your look simple without a lot of the pizzaz helps youto show off your skills. I think a clean look and good riding skills and “good” showmanship is a big key to being successful. Judges dont want to hear anyone complain or whine. It stinks up the atmosphere. And it really does make you look bad all together. I think the experience you get from a show is far more worth the prize or ribbon. Its the experience and if you dont learn from the experience then you are not going to get anything out of it. Dont go to a show and expect to win. Because many of times you will be disappointed when you dont.
I’d like to take him, teach him to relax and stop, and put him on cattle. He’s built to be a heel horse. He’s not even built like today’s pleasure horses – irregardless of how stupidly fake their gaits are. Tall and lanky is pretty much what I’ve seen recently…not the compact, more foundation types….his neck doesn’t even tie into his body in a way where I would EXPECT him to be able to carry himself level. Her tack (the placement of her saddle pad drives me nuts), her death-grip on the reins, the position of his head and neck…nothing looks like a pleasure.
I’ve ridden and judged at the local level, and unfortunately even on the local level, everyone wants to go with the standard fake gait BS that’s placing at higher levels. The adults use the local shows as training ground. So, you are forced to choose the least of the evils. The kids…there are some that really are nice little free-moving pleasure horses with true gaits. Those are the horses who are just naturally level and slower – and those kids will ride those horses for FUN in EVERY class.
It’s absolutely true that many horses go level naturally – mine did long before he had any training. Mine went level or lower from ride #1 and he had never (a) worn a bit (b) been tied around or down or (c) worn ANY type of training aid whatsoever. We’ve had to pick his head up – he likes to peanut-roll.
It’s also true that others do not! My two year old, by the same sire, but out of a TB mare, has a TOTALLY different neck set. He will NEVER be an AQHA pleasure horse. I would never ask it of him.
Rainbeau correctly observed that the horse in the pic just isn’t built do to this particular job.
As for the right or wrong of the current style of AQHA western pleasure – hey, it’s a STYLE. Again, if you don’t like that style, do something different but realize that most types of equine competition, unless they’re about speed or high how you can jump or being fit to go 50 miles, are about a style. Western Pleasure is a stylized version of how a horse would ride out on a range following a herd of cattle. Dressage is a stylized version of moves that were developed to keep war horses alive in battle. A horse may not lope as slow as a WP horse in the field naturally, but he doesn’t passage out there either. As long as we (a) pick a horse who is built to do what we want and (b) accomplish the look we want in a CRUELTY FREE manner, that’s what counts.
Well, if there are mares around, he might passage…
I watched the video, and since it took awhile for the horses to even come into sight, I was clicking other places, etc. At one point when I clicked back, I wondered, “Are they loping?” The first horse didn’t look it, but the next one was definitely not trotting, so lope it was indeed;-) Sometimes their walk and jog distinctions are tough, too…
I understand the idea of stylized, but as with those HUS that would fall down if in the actual hunt field, WP if based on cattle work should move with longer strides but be slow… or if this was supposed to be the rich rancher’s daughter’s horse, I hope they have a house in town, cause it could take her three days to ride in and be seen…
All else being equal, if I were a judge, I would like a WP horse to display
*headset at jog and lope to be at vertical or up to 30 degrees in front of vertical, with their head height where they like provided the muzzle does not drop lower than knees regardless of gait or phase of gait
*a slow and cadenced jog that takes fairly normal horse strides
*a lope that should show a joy to be moving but still be well controlled… Also showing good stride length. Judging they should call for both a collected (but UP, not crippled crab) show lope and a “traveling lope”, how open hunters have canter and hand gallop. Pleasure horse… going faster is a fun, right, or you wouldn’t dream of galloping as a kid?
* a walk showing a horse that walked with a purpose. The head could/should be farther in front of the vertical than that horse carries it at the two other gaits.
To my mind THIS type of Western Pleasure horse would not only be fun to ride, you could ride him outside a manicured show ring in the same way as in the show ring, and he would not fall down, and you might actually reach your destination in a timely fashion. It allows riders to become horsemen instead of just a human that can sit on a slightly tilting saddle attached to a horse the trainer robot trained for them. The person who said WP needed to have time to set the horse up to reverse for balance… they’re WALKING. If you are not balanced at a walk without special preparation, you should go home and lie in bed (no offense to anyone with balance problems;-).
The reason for the no muzzle below the knees idea is that while I’ve seen some horses who like that low headset, they are usually not moving out with the hind end at the same time… one way to slow the gait, I guess, rather than take the time to teach the horse to do the hard work of carrying itself with long strides AND slow on a loose rein… that’s actually really hard work for the horse.
A lot of dressage (especially the extension and the collection work) was used by military (long after the knights and regardless of needing the maneuverability) to EXERCISE the horses if weather was too inclement to train outside. People don’t realize how hard a dressage horse works if they are moving properly and really rocking back and loading and then lifting through with their hocks. They felt it equivalent to a much longer outside workout. Heavy dressage work is hard to do day in and out for a horse… you wouldn’t power lift the same muscle sets in the weight room everyday if you wanted to build up and not break down.
Fascinating what google can lead you go:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/thereasa-marcum-hribar/15/6b0/563
That would be lead you TO not GO!!
lostmymarbles says:
“No pleasure horse of any breed/discipline is supposed to compete on a taut rein, for starters.”
Just wanted to mention ~ the above isn’t entirely accurate. In non-stock breeds such as Arabian, Morgan, Saddlebred, Andalusian, Friesian and so forth, all English division classes (Hunt Seat and Saddleseat) are trained and shown with our horses on the bit and not with a loose or draped rein. Those would include Hunter PLEASURE, Country English PLEASURE and English PLEASURE.
people should enjoy showing. I worked for a month with my horse to enter her in 1 class at a local horse show. The trail class. We came in 3rd polace and won a ribbon. I was extatic! OK there were only 4 horses in the class, but we weren’t last! I bragged to everyone AND told them the whole story! Yeah- We won a ribbon!
My kid shows on the Schooling Show level and it’s always for fun. She traded her ribbon in a class with her friend who she felt rode better than she did (it was a W/T/C class and my kid couldn’t keep her mare in a lope). While the other girl may not have had a great a seat as my kid, she did the gaits well – she sped around the ring but it’s schooling. So was they walked out of the ring my daughter stopped next to her friend and asked to switch ribbons. It was a heartfelt gesture that I will remember the rest of my life. The people at the gate even commented on how gracious it was. The little girl said that she was happy with her placing and that she felt my kid rode better. So it was pretty incredible to have them both be so humble about it all.
Another time however was not so good – a Mom was complaining about her child’s lack of winning or placing in the top three for a class. She was dressed to the nine’s but again it’s a schooling show. My daughter placed ahead of her and and she went off on how that was ridiculous. The mother of course not knowing that it was my kid who beat hers out. I let her drone on and on – “They must not realize that my daughter qualified for state…that judge is as stupid as a box of rocks…those other girls don’t even have any silver on their saddles!”…My daughter with her smile beaming rode towards me holding her ribbon and the other Mom turned ghost white. Realizing she had just dissed my child the entire time yet I said nothing (which is rare!)
So what does she do? She yells at her kid and yanks her horse to the trailer.
I think society has gotten out of control with the “Everyone gets a trophy Mentality”. People don’t always win. And we’ve got a bunch of kids growing up without knowing this who are going to be VERY disappointed in life.
When my kid doesn’t place in a class I always ask her what she learned and how she can change it in the next class. And MOST importantly I ask her if she had fun. If the answer is ever “NO” then we take some time off and get back to having fun.
Out of curiosity, did it ever occur to you to talk to the owner/rider and get all the facts. Or do you all prefer to assume you know the whole story, and make your decisions based on half-truths and assumptions, and make a person the butt of your jokes? Just food for thought.
Your post spoke for itself. What more could you possibly add? Ooops, sorry, I don’t really think showing is unfair bullshit, I know my horse wasn’t ready and I was just off my meds/PMSing that day when I posted that rant?
I doubt you are here to say that, so I’d say my original analysis of your posting and the accompanying picture was accurate. Of course, you are welcome to post here whatever you would have allegedly told me if I had asked you privately. We always welcome the other side.
Since I’ve been made the butt of so many of your jokes, please allow me to clarify a few things:
1.) “Damitt’s” name is a combination of his sire and dam’s barn names, nothing more. He is well mannered and a total sweet-heart.
2.) He was bred to be a PERFORMANCE horse! He was shown in Western Pleasure because he was not ready to be shown in reining last year. I’m not going to cut his mane for one year just so he can look like Pleasure horse, when he’s not a Pleasure horse.
3.) I dislike Western Pleasure as much as I dislike Halter, but I have to show in them. Anyone who shows on the ABRA circuit knows that in order to earn the Performance Versatility and Supreme Champion awards, the horse must have ROM’s in at least 5 of the 7 performance categories, and Western Pleasure is one of them. ABRA Champion and Supreme Champion Awards also require a ROM in Halter.
4.) At NO TIME did Dammit buck, run over a judge, not stop, ignore any other commands, or was ever on the wrong lead! All these accusations are bold faced lies, mainly spread by 2 individuals that have a great disdain for me.
5.) I agree, it is a very bad picture of me and Damitt, and I critiqued it myself when I first saw it. However, like someone mentioned earlier, it is only a moment in time. It’s unfortunate that this particular moment in time showed me tense.
6.) Damitt was bred, born, and trained in Wisconsin while I was living in Colorado. My parent’s focus their equine lives around quarter horses and western performance classes. I focus my equine life around warmbloods and “English” performance classes. My parent’s western rider (my sister) is still deployed in Iraq. I substituted for her performance.
7.) I’ve been taking English lessons since I was 10, I have a Bachelors in Equine Management, and yes, I am a carded judge and certified instructor, but I do not judge buckskin shows, or train my parent’s horses.
8.) There has NEVER been video of Damitt posted anywhere on the Internet!
9.) I spoke too soon when I said that World Show was Damitt’s first show under saddle. After I hastily posted my “rant” did I find out that my parent’s and Damitt’s trainer had shown him under saddle prior to World.
10.) In regards to the comment that I’m a spoiled rick kid because of my last name; what family do you have me confused with?
It’s easy to be judgmental of someone when you don’t have all the facts, are told lies and half-truths, are shown a bad picture, or the person isn’t around to defend themselves. I’m sure the truth has given you guys even more to joke and criticize about me. As childish as my hastily posted rant was, I did have a point about unnatural gaited horses placing when the rules clearly state that they are to be disqualified.
By the way, Damitt didn’t perform as bad as everyone, including myself thought. Spectators praised my parent’s for bringing a horse with natural gaits to World, and they got several breeding bookings out of it too.
I am late to this post but wish to weigh in anyways…..sometimes I think you just have to put up with some BS when showing, it goes with the terrain and you can’t blow up all the time. I was in a first year green flat class with a 20+ year old pushbutton horse in it-there was NO way that horse was “green” in the least….my 4 yo mare did very well for a first show and I was happy with her. The veteran horse was beside me as we lined up so I heard everything as the judge questioned the rider, then admonished her for being in a green class when she got the answers.
Strangly enough though, she pinned this horse first anyways! Yes, it probably did do the best of all of us….but all the rider really did was whip a bunch of babies with her accomplished show horse at a schooling show…I thought she should have been excused, but didn’t say anything, I took my fourth place ribbon and in my mind decided we had placed third, really
My mare had stumbled on her canter depart so we certainly didn’t deserve to win either, and it wasn’t worth being a poor sport.
And I’m sure we’ve all been cut off in the ring by rude riders….or had that parent sit their screaming balloon-weilding child on the ring fence beside the big scary oxer….it’s not always fair. Then there’s the show where our horse is having a bad day or the footing is terrible, I think we have to pick our battles wisely and use our judgement when it may be prudent to pack it in for the day. But I’d rather be a class act than throw tantrums and know my horse and I did the best we could do no matter what the outcome ribbon-wise