Training Abuse – could it be YOUR fault?
Oct 14 2009
I’ve been having an interesting conversation lately with my horse’s trainer, and she’s pointed out that while everybody screams about incidents like the Cleve Wells debacle, the root cause of a great deal of training abuse is clients who want quick results and do not care how they are achieved. (Please note I’m not saying that was the case with Slow Lopin Scotch – it’s obvious his mom did NOT feel that way but it’s equally obvious that MOST of Cleve’s clients do or they wouldn’t still be with him.) So we’ve been discussing the real truth about how long it takes to finish a show horse, and how few amateur owners understand there’s no good way to do it quickly.
Training a horse for serious competition, whether it’s jumping a course, cutting a cow, performing a reining pattern or a dressage test, is not like drawing a dog with your Etch-a-Sketch. It’s more like painting the Sistine Chapel. You have to have a plan. You are going to have some setbacks along the way. There will be days the horse just says “nope, I don’t get it,” and you have to slow down and try different approaches ’til he does get it. Or something will scare him and you’ll have to work to get his attention back. Maybe you’ve got him riding beautifully at home and the first time you take him somewhere new, he loses his little pea brain. Horses get hurt – they hit rails jumping, they whack themselves or twist something in the pasture, they get cast in the stall – and that slows down the process.
And they show up at training at all different levels. Owners think nothing of dropping off a horse that is skinny, doesn’t tie, hasn’t had his feet done in six months and is kind of vaguely halter broke – then complain when that horse isn’t w-t-c under saddle after 30 days. Even if you think you have done all the work you can and really prepared your horse, he may act differently in a new barn. Mine was w-t-c’ing quietly at home and arrived at the training barn where he had to deal with other stallions, breeding taking place, lots of activity and OMG a different rider and promptly forgot everything he knew for the first thirty days. I came out and hopped on him bareback like usual and my trainer thought I was taking my life in my hands. We laugh about it now but that isn’t an unusual story.
Training is expensive, to be sure. Let’s say the average cost is $800 a month including board. Well, that’s more than many of us are paying for rent! The desire to get a horse ready to show quickly is understandable when you look at the numbers. Unfortunately, there’s simply no way to do it that is good for the horse. I’ve been talking to various trainers and experienced owners and here’s what most people are telling me:
You’re looking at a year to 18 months to train a show pleasure horse correctly.
Reining, cutting or barrels? Two years.
Dressage? Depends on the level. If you want a Grand Prix horse, expect to put in a minimum of four years of professional training, probably more. There’s a reason you don’t see young high-level dressage horses.
Of course, there are no hard and fast rules. It’s like asking how long it takes to teach a child to read. The wonder horses who win at the shows when they’re 90 days under saddle absolutely do exist, but they’re rare and usually the result of far more months of excellent ground work, so that they were better broke than most horses before anyone stepped into a stirrup. Like the gifted & talented child who learns to read in a flash, they are smarter than the average horse and athletic enough that the training comes easily to them. It also helps not to be forcing a round peg into a square hole. A horse who is built to carry his head in the correct position for his discipline is going to be ready for the show ring a lot faster than one whose owner needs to be told that she owns a barrel prospect, not a pleasure prospect, and it’s time to sell him and get what she actually wants.
I can keep going with the child analogy – anyone here who’s a teacher or a riding instructor knows that parents can drive you NUTS. They often have certain expectations about how fast their child should be learning or what goals should have been accomplished by now. Well, people are the same with their horses. If their friend Suzy’s horse was at a show after 3 months of training, why isn’t theirs? Never mind that Suzy’s horse is crabby, pissy, lame behind and tropes around the arena looking mad at the world, his angry tail stilled only by those wonderful injections everybody still gets away with. Suzy’s out there showing! Why isn’t their horse? Frustrated by these conversations, and losing desperately needed income to other trainers, young trainers slide into using the gimmicks and abuse that get the horses out there faster. Oh well, everybody else is doing it, right? And we have to pay our mortgage…Â
The flip side of this is that there are trainers who truly DO take advantage, like the one I blogged about who hadn’t even been on the (broke, 2nd level dressage) horse after a YEAR of $1000 a month training. So how do you know that your prospective trainer is the type who is careful and using good judgment as opposed to a con artist who’ll suck up your cash like an Electrolux?
First question, can that trainer show you horses he or she has successfully trained? Go watch those horses compete, or talk to the owners and see them ridden if the trainer’s focus is creating quality trail horses. Are they sound? Are they happy? Pinned ears and a pissy expression is NOT OK, not even if the horse is winning like that. (I don’t mean cutting horses that pin their ears at a cow or reining horses that lay them back on a slide. That’s normal. I mean constant pinned ears or grinding teeth and obvious discomfort loping around on a soft rein or doing rail work.)
Second question, what are the trainer’s policies about their barn? I would not personally leave my horse anywhere that visits were restricted or had to be announced (within reason, during normal barn hours). If you cannot just walk in and watch the trainer work horses, I would worry about what is going on. Now, you don’t have the right to walk in unannounced and ask the trainer to drop what they are doing and ride your horse for you – that’s different. You are not the only client and may not behave like a princess. But an “open door” policy is usually a very good sign that your horse is being treated well even when you are not present.
Third question, has the trainer ever been disciplined by their breed association and why? A phone call will tell you this. If they have been caught drugging or abusing horses, trust me, they have not changed their stripes. Not all discipline is for that sort of thing, so do ask why before you jump to conclusions.
Fourth, GOOGLE! One Rip-Off report or similar rant could be a problem customer and everybody has had at least one. Six of them? Probably not a good sign.
Fifth, go to the barn and look at the horses. Happy and fresh, ears up, come to the door to see the people and determine the presence of cookies? Or all sulking in the corners, hoping not to be bothered, or aggressively scraping their teeth on the stall bars?
Another thing I’d do before choosing a trainer include going to a show they’re at and observing how they treat their clients and horses when under stress. That can be very different from how things go at home, and they can’t hide anything at a show. Lurking quietly around the warm up ring, with no one knowing you are a prospective client, is highly educational.
Once they’re in training, you should be able to set up times to watch them worked and get regular updates about their progress. This can be scary ground for the trainer. Some of you are like the parents who will flip if anything negative is said about your child. GROW UP. Your child has bad days, really 
I hear everything about my horse – from the glowing reports when he goes like he’s ready for the World to the days when he says “nope, I don’t sidepass today, eff you lady” and I like it that way. If you’re a grown-up who can handle hearing about your horse’s faults, make sure to tell your trainer so that he/she won’t be scared that you’ll simply stomp off and find a different trainer who blows sunshine and butterflies up your ass instead of the truth.
Finally, don’t expect results if you trainer-hop. Absolutely move your horse out if you find evidence of abuse or drugging or you’re seeing your horse’s attitude deteriorate or he is developing vices he never had before. But if the progress simply isn’t what you were hoping for, ask questions and give the trainer a chance to show you what they are doing, why they are doing it, and what mental or physical limitations or challenges are holding your horse back.
It’s probably obvious at this point that it’s a lot cheaper to buy a fully trained horse if your goal is getting into the show ring quickly – but going through the training process with a much loved horse or one that you bred is particularly rewarding as well. You get to control how that horse is trained. You can ensure he never has bad experiences, becomes sour, gets ridden too early or pushed too hard – things you may not be able to avoid with a horse you purchase already finished. There are advantages to both approaches and it’s up to you to figure out what makes sense for you.
Now, tell me your training stories – good and bad. If you have a horse that is competing and doing well, how long did that take? Did you find a great trainer right away or have to hop a bit to find the right one? Good experiences? Bad ones? What were your horse’s challenges during training? What have you learned, perhaps the hard way, and can share with others who are looking for a serious trainer for maybe the first time?
And of course, trainers, your thoughts are welcome as well! If you have trained one to the point where they placed or won in national-level competition, how long did that take?
P.S. Never look this topic up on Yahoo Answers if you don’t want your head to hurt. Actual quote: “You dont really train them to jump, all i did was head for a jump, and my horse jumped it, lol” Poor horse…bet he was not LOLing about this process.
88 comments to “Training Abuse – could it be YOUR fault?”
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I guess I’ve been lucky with all my trainers….first one started my QTR horse Robbie driving…put a great foundation on him. She got him again when it was time to ride him.
I wanted Robbie to do flying lead changes for western riding he was 12 y.o….didn’t know if he could do it and I didn’t know how to ask him. Sent him to another trainer and, well, first week the trainer got him changing, 2nd week came for a lesson where the trainer showed me what to do, worked on it a bit, went back for another lesson, asked the trainer what next…he said – Take him home….he knows how to do flying lead changes, you know how to ask for them…now go home and learn to communicate better…Three weeks and he didn’t charge me for the full month! Same thing when it came to teaching us how to spin….didn’t try to gouge me.
The current trainer for my 4 y.o. Dolly is fantastic…he knows I wanted it taken slow…nothing above a trot until she was 3…just the basics for 3 months then back to me until she was 3. Now, since I’m in Qatar, he has both of mine for board…keeping Robbie legged and doing light training on Dolly (actually, he wants her but…)
I once worked for a trainer…let’s say what I thought was a dream job turned into a nightmare…
Ironically enough, I once had a horse in for training that was such a tough bugger, I spent three weeks just trying to get him saddled. His owner had tried to saddle him at home and got him in a huge wreck, so he was having none of it when he came to me. The horse spent six weeks total with me, went home to get shots and dental, never came back. I called up the fella to ask when he was bringing him back, he said he was going so good he didn’t think he needed to. The horse went out to a few shows after that, won his classes, went to the Nationals about two months later, placed third and got sold. I think that horse was just smart enough to figure things out.
Most of the horses I trained were for folks who just wanted a good horse to ride and didn’t care about showing, so that was the timeline they were looking at. If the horse could carry them down the trail and be quiet and willing and soft after a month or two, that was all they needed.
What I wish folks would understand about trainers is that horses are not vehicles with hair. Whether you wish it or not, you’re going to have some kind of relationship with that horse, and the person who interacts with the horse on a daily basis is the person with whom the horse has the strongest relationship. That’s why you can’t just turn a horse over to a trainer, get good results, then bring the horse home and expect those results to last. The conversation between trainer and horse goes well because they understand each other the best. If a person wants those good results to last, they have to take lessons, and start transitioning the horse back into their relationship under the watchful eye of the trainer. It doesn’t work any other way, unless the trainer turned the horse into a mindless robot. Even then, it will eventually fall apart. Everyone has to learn to be THE trainer for THAT horse. All that being a “trainer” is, is having a better quality of conversation with a horse. The only difference between amateurs and pros is that amateurs only know how to converse with their own horses, pros can converse with any horse. It doesn’t matter. How well the horse goes for you has all to do with you and your horse, plus whatever the horse was able to learn from the trainer. But the horse will just as quickly disregard what he learned from the trainer if you either tell him it doesn’t matter, or tell him to do something different. He’s going to change, depending on the quality of the conversation you have with him.
Quick OT note: Was reading the Arabian Horse mags last night from 2002 and realized the sire of that Seaside Dawn Dream mare that got rescued was a U.S. and Canadian National Futurity Colt. Good grief. Nice mare for the price!
>>If a person wants those good results to last, they have to take lessons, and start transitioning the horse back into their relationship under the watchful eye of the trainer. It doesn’t work any other way, unless the trainer turned the horse into a mindless robot.< <
Absolutely. Many trainers do include a weekly lesson, which unfortunately not everybody takes advantage of.
I have never sent a horse off to a trainer; I always want to be the one learning to do the training myself. I took weekly lessons growing up, was a working student, and now get lessons every month or so, and I’ve just always wanted to be the one sitting on the horse doing the training with someone else directing me so I can get a feel for it, and then practice every day instilling that feeling into myself and the horse. Even on days when I want the trainer to get up there and work through something, I am always there watching and usually get on for a few minutes at the end to feel it myself. I like to actively participate every time my horse is ridden. I have to say, I have ridden and worked at some barns with very good reputations, but I have seen horses get sent to these barns for training and not get the amount of time they were signed up for. I’m one of the few who actually goes out and rides every single day, rain or shine, hot or cold, so I would see this going on. I have also seen horses get sent to grand prix trainers for 30 or 60 days of training, and the trainer never once got on the horse. They basically just used the horse for lessons and had their students ride them. Sure, they’re still getting training, but not advancing as quickly as they would if the grand prix trainer was sitting on them every day (which is what the owners were paying for!). There are definitely some corrupt training systems out there. I typically recommend that if you’re going to send your horse for training, send them someplace within driving distance and let the trainer know that you want to come out and watch the training sessions. See if they can set up a schedule with you so that you can watch them ride your horse at least 3-4 times a week. I have seen horses go for months or years without any progress, but it’s usually because the owner does not appear invested so the trainer slacks off. I think it’s also important for the owner to discuss their goals and then their actions need to show that they mean it. If you drop your horse off at the trainer and say “I really want to show next spring” but you cancel your lessons and don’t make any effort to practice in between lessons, the trainer is probably not going to take you very seriously. But if you discuss your goals, set up a schedule that the trainer rides the horse these three days, you get a lesson this day, and then you come out and practice on your own these other two days, then the trainer knows you mean business and won’t be so likely to have days where they “just don’t get around to it” with your horse and put it off until tomorrow.
May I please get a TB look up? Mare by the name of Nazizi (foaled 1982) by Mr. Reday and out of Last Penie.
I have a mare that just came to live with me. She is out of Nazizi and is eligable for registration as an Anglo-Trakhner. Even though she was foaled in the 90′s, I have the original breeding certificate in hand. All that I am missing is the registration number of her dam, Nazizi.
Your assistance is much appreciated!!!!
From the view backwards down my five decades with horses and observing trainers, many if not most of whom that I’ve seen wouldn’t let within a country mile of a horse, I would add to Fugly’s comment with this: there are two more BIG problems with trainers, the first being most horses are smarter than horse trainers and the second being that a lot of trainers only have that one way of making a living even when it clearly is not appropriate for them. In both instances the horse is the loser.
There’s also a sort of catch-22 going on: if you know enough to evaluate a trainer you probably know enough not to expect a thirty-day wonder — and you also probably know enough not to trust most trainers!
One thing that I asked my trainer for was a portfollio (sp) It will give you a history on their work. Mine also had vidios that clients had taken of them working with the horse. Made me fill alot better know that they knew which side of the horse to get up on. Talk to them, ask questions bring a friend that knows something to ask questions. There is no dumb question except for the one never asked.
All I can say is do your research my trainer is the best and she comes to my home to help me when necessary at a cost, we have become good friends to boot.
I train my horses myself, but then I do not take them to professionnal levels… all of my horses are good trail mounts and get different kinds of training when the age is appropriate (barrels, side passing, lead changes, cow work). My horses are no professionnals, but experienced riders could get on and still have fun. I never plan to show any of my horses, I only want to be able to relax on a nice trail that brings some unexpected challenges of their own. Love to hear about training stories!!
Fugly, this horse needs an upgrade, I sent you an e-mail, however I think you receive a lot of e-mails regarding this kind of stuff. This guy is in dire need though, his owner obviously doesn’t give a hoot about who gets him (his asking price is $100 CND), and he is willing to trade for “any old mare that can walk”. I can’t take him right now as I cannot afford another horse, but maybe if you post him here he could find a good home. He is a fugly 3 year old quarter horse stallion (of course), he is halter broke (apparently), and he could use a good grooming, vet check and have his feet done. He is not horribly skinny, but could still use some groceries. He is located in PEI, Canada (one of the Eastern provinces, very close to Maine), and I could probably arrange for someone to pick him up and arrange for a place for him to stay until his new owner can pick him up (or arrange long distance transport) if necessary. Here is the link:
http://www.usedpei.com/classified-ad/10335772
The US especially seems to have a culture where people expect to see significant results after 30 days, and a rideable horse after 90 days. Coming from European thought where three months of training gets you a horse that’s lightly backed – eg it will walk, trot, and quite probably canter under saddle in both directions, it’ll mostly stop (but not as drastic as the Western Whoa), and it’ll probably have been out on a few quiet hacks with another horse and maybe have been popped over a pole to introduce him to the concept.
And that’s it. If the horse is very good, an average amateur will expect to ride it with support from a trainer, gradually transitioning to riding to weekly or fortnightly lessons, but the expectation is that it’ll need bringing on for another year or two until it’s reasonably trained. If the rider is a relative beginner, the horse won’t be expected to be ready for him yet.
A five year old – a year or even two under saddle – is a ‘young horse’, and expected to not always be perfect. (It’ll do some light copetition and everything – but mostly young horse classes). And while a horse may be a packer, it won’t be ‘finished’ – that concept is more or less missing from training here. Horses may be very well trained indeed, but one would expect to refine their schooling as long as the horse is at the top of his game (15-20 for old-fashioned dressage and jumper trainers… this sadly is more an ideal than a reality, as too many horses are pushed too far too young and don’t make it into their teens.)
I also consider myself one of the lucky ones. My trainer and I were camp councelors together the summers of ’92, ’93 and ’94. (Please don’t do the math! Please don’t do the math!) After high school, Mike went off to school in Colorado to learn more about training horses. In 1996, I transfered to a college in KY and got my BS in Equine Science with a focus on Breeding and Reproduction.
In 1999, after several years as an assistant trainer, Mike purchased his own place and began training on his own. In that same year, I found my own farm and moved in. As luck would have it, our farms were only 55 minutes away from each other. The following year, I purchased a colt (see avatar for said colt all grown up) from Arkansas and the seller offered two unbroke geldings for a really good price. I bought the geldings and gave them to Mike to train. They were re-sale projects where I bought them, he trained them and we split the selling price. This was a test to see if Mike was really interested in training ponies for me.
It is now ten years later. Mike has done 100% of the training on my ponies and I couldn’t be happier. He has shown my youngstock to championships as well as Sprocket (colt mentioned above) to championships in English, Western and Dressage. This year, Mike showed on of the first Sprocket babies under saddle and placed well in English Pleasure with him.
Sprocket’s progression has been very gradual. He showed in-hand as a four year old, but had already been wearing tack and carried a rider. At five and six, he just showed in English Pleasure. At seven, he added dressage and showed in training level. At eight, he added Western Pleasure. This year, at nine, he has also become a lesson pony for kids and amature adults. Next year, I expect to see Sprocket shown by some of his lesson “kids”.
I think the key to our successful team has been patience. I am a breeder of Welsh Ponies, so I often have youngstock around. Some folks don’t do much with their youngsters, waiting for them to grow up a bit which is perfectly fine. But I like doing stuff with my babies, like showing. I have found that if the babies are shown as youngsters, the show environment is never intimidating to them. So I send my yearlings to Mike for 30 days of ground work. They get to be in a busy environment and figure out it is not a big deal. As two-year-olds, they go back for 30 days and start building on what they learned. As three-year-olds, they go for at least 60 days to Mike. They were tack, long line and may even bare weight. At four, my ponies begin their under saddle life. They may be shown in walk-trot classes or Intro Dressage tests (which are also walk-trot).
But the most important part of this process is that Mike customizes his plan to the individual. This year I sent a yearling to Mike that was overwhelmed by the new environment of a busy show barn. She ended up staying with Mike a few weeks longer because she needed to figure out that life there was OK. The Sprocket baby that Mike showed this year went to Mike for his 60 days as a three year old. He was there 10 days and Mike told me to take him home and turn him out for a year. Mentally, he was not ready. Instead of pushing this fellow (and wasting Mike’s time and my money), he went home and started back up the following year where we left off. Yes, he is a year behind my original plan, but he is fantastic now and has even more potential than Sprocket did at this age.
I love my trainer and could go on and on about him. And I have found other people think the same. There are people from all over that have sent their ponies to him for training. We live in Ohio, but he has had ponies from Pennsylvania, Arkansas, Indiana and even Georgia to train. If you want to learn more about Mike, here is his website: http://www.RRRFarms.net
If you find you would like to send your horse/pony to Mike, know that I visit once a week and will be happy to look in on your critter. I have done this for several out-of-towners and would be honored to do this for you. Mike is a brilliant horseman and I am proud to have him on my team. So proud that I want the whole world to know of his tallent! (If you want to know more, contact me off list Jen@SommerPonyFarm.com)
It’s still the trainer’s fault. If the horse can’t do what it’s being asked, isn’t suitable, or just isn’t going to be ready that fast, it’s the trainer’s responsibility to tell the owner. To try to force the horse into something he’s not is abuse. Not all owners are knowledgable enough to know whether or not the horse they bought is suitable for hunters, or barrel racing, or whatever. The trainer needs to have the balls to say “This horse just is not cut out for that.”
I raised my own baby (first and last time for that) and when he was a 3 year old I started looking for someone just to get him started under saddle. Through a recommendation from a person I respect I found the trainer that would ultimately start him for me. For me this was like sending my child to a new day care provider. I asked for and got references and I checked them out. I saw the horses he had trained and I spoke with their owners then I set up an appointment with the trainer to interview him and tour his facility. My horse was just going to be a trail horse but he is going to be mine for his whole life so it was very important to me that he was started right and I certainly did not want him abused or neglected. I was invited to drop in anytime to visit my horse. I made sure to visit my horse and I asked to be there to watch the trainer get on his back for the first time. He was very happy to accomodate me, a very good sign, I thought. When I got there I found that he had put a chair out for me in the shade of nearby tree where I had a clear view of the round pen. When I went to pick my horse up I was encouraged to ride him. We went on an 8-10 mile trail ride where the trainer explained that, yes my horse would cross water, climb embankments, walk through a cow pasture (complete with cows) and do a bunch of other stuff he will be expected to do as a trail horse. After riding my horse through all those “hazards” I left with him confident that I could ride him and that he would work as advertised. I was very happy with the results and would send another horse to him again any time.
On the flip side I was talking to someone I know of who is into cutting and have heard some horror stories from her. She was telling me about one trainer her husband sent her horse to that would only feed pellets in the morning because he couldn’t be bothered with haying them. They only got hay once a day in the evening. He defended his feeding program by saying that he’s been feeding that way for years and never had a problem. I wasn’t too surprised to hear that her horse developed gastric ulcers while there. Yeah, he might not have had “problem†because he didn’t pay the vet bills. I would seriously reconsider sending any horse to a “trainer†that doesn’t know the feeding requirements of the species he is “trainingâ€. I’m sure that there are folks in just about every discipline that are concerned with getting quick results from their trainers and that leaves the door open to all kinds of abusive shortcuts. She was telling me stories about breast collars laden with nails and then yanked on by the trainer to “train†the horse to move a certain way. Any person with any sense should know that there are NO short cuts, training takes time, lots of it but trainers are under a lot of pressure to show results in a very short amount of time. Who is at fault, the owners expecting the moon and the stars or the trainers promising the same?
I only had one horse trained by someone other than myself and it was actually a pleasant experience (she green broke my 3 year old, no additional training.. -I- got to do that.. 3 year old horse + 13 year old girl taking lessons… not the best decision, but it worked out in the end. Anyhow, i digress)
My thing is more with the clients. I train horses in Dressage, and it really is a passion for me. Usually those clients are very good to deal with, sans the ones who want to rush things, and don’t recognize what a wringing tail means.
The clients I have the problems with are the clients that think it is the horse who has the problem. They don’t realize that they created, and wil continue to create problems in their horses. I have literally turned horses back over to the owners and refunded the remainder of the training money with people like this. Classic examples:
Their horse bites at pockets. All pockets. Chest, Pants, etc. Horse motioned to bite at me, i motioned to hit horse didn’t move back, so i did a 4 finger slap on the nose, the horse spooked (because hell, had never been told no before) and the owner got really emotional and started crying because i hurt her horse’s feelings. Long story short, i came out to the barn and saw she was paying her guy a visit.. no problem with that. but i noticed she was giggling because her horse was “tickling” her (i.e. rooting for food in her pockets). She didn’t understand how this was no different than biting. In the end, i noticed she wasnt going to change, so i refunded the money left and asked her to remove her horse.
Any time i had to use any amount of “brawn” the owners would get offended. i am NOT for abusing horses, i want to clarify that. But, the fact of the matter is, these horses come in KNOWING their size/weight, and using it to their advantage. As mean as this sounds, the horses I train believe i am the bigger animal. And thats the way it needs to be.
Again, I digress:
I HAVE had clients that were like the one mentioned above that i was able to speak with, and get them to understand why the horse was having this problem. In the end, those cases were 100% successful, they just needed a compitent, confident horse trainer to knock off the scary behavior.
In the end: I always, always, ALWAYS include the owner in the training of the horse. I want to teach them what i’ve taught the horse to make sure the horse never comes back to me. The only repeat business i want is new horses from prior satisfied clients.
Sorry for talkin’ all over the place. Loooooong day at work, long morning at the barn! This all makes more sense to me in my head!
Perhaps, being a new poster, i should wait until i am not super duper tired to make posts like this! LOL!
Green_Knight, someone told me not long ago that THEIR trainer could have gotten my horse in the show pen in 30 days. I bit my tongue and resisted the urge to note that I’d met one of THEIR trainer’s ex horses and it was finally back showing after it had wound up a sour bundle of nerves that bucked like something from the rodeo and been sold down the road. Current owner lived through some hard falls and stuck with him and he’s so much better now – he got extremely lucky.
I just told her that speed wasn’t my goal.
I have another friend who reads here who got sold a very experienced APHA show horse…that now bolted and, oops, there’s that little Cushings thing they failed to mention. She has done a great job of fixing him but it has not been easy.
Anyone will tell you, it’s easier to train than to retrain.
>>The trainer needs to have the balls to say “This horse just is not cut out for that.â€< <
I agree, and I don’t mean to let them off the hook – it’s just a topic for discussion. However, it seems that the trainers who DO tell the truth and are honest don’t make the money of the gimmick-using, horse-rushing, drug-administering, tail-blocking asshats. That will only change when owners get smart, so hopefully some will read this and think about it!
>>Their horse bites at pockets. All pockets. Chest, Pants, etc. Horse motioned to bite at me, i motioned to hit horse didn’t move back, so i did a 4 finger slap on the nose, the horse spooked (because hell, had never been told no before) and the owner got really emotional and started crying because i hurt her horse’s feelings.< <
I’d send that one home too, and her phone number to Pat Parelli. That one’s a gold mine for him!
Could not possibly agree more… the reason that many trainers are in such a rush and take such shortcuts is that clients expect it. This is another part of what kills me about the Parelli philosophy (and otherwise, unlike you, I do like his program quite a bit)… his whole program is built around people having a horse that’s already well broke, and just sort of handwaves away the fact that the techniques used to break those horses in were probably not nice. It’s like he thinks that these well-broke horses just appear out of thin air for our convenience.
Anyway, as far as training goes, I think as both a trainer (well, sort of) and a person in *need* of a trainer of my own, I can see from both sides how there’s a fine line to walk. As a “trainer” I do groundwork/gentling with mustangs and other might-as-well-be-wild horses only; I’m not in any way qualified to start a horse under saddle, but I can get them to a point where they’re very prepared to take that next step with a properly qualified trainer. I have only a single client right now, who has three horses (and even this small number is really more than I have time for, since this isn’t really my job as such). Her colt is practically a domestic and needs very little in way of real training, just some boundary-setting; with him it’s mostly about teaching his owner how to be more assertive. The two mares are a different story, and both went straight from the wild to some horrible trainers who subjected them to serious abuse. (The owner, being a first-time horse person, having no idea what to look for in a trainer and not having done her research well at all, put her trust in “professionals” she shouldn’t have allowed anywhere near her horses. She knows better now. I hope.) I’ve had one of these mares in training where I board for probably six months now, and she’s still not really at a place where I feel comfortable letting her owner handle her unsupervised. For a horse like this, even with that many months of training (though I only am able to work with her 3-5 hours a week and the price of the training reflects that), she isn’t anywhere near being trained for saddle. She has, however, gone from an animal that would only approach you to aggressively demand food (and who would turn and kick you if you tried anything else) to an animal who will walk up to be caught, leads really nicely, kicks only when startled rather than as a default reaction to everything (and now kicks more at objects — like tall weeds and her own tail — and only targets people when she’s having an absolute mental breakdown, which she does occasionally), can be bathed and fly sprayed and have her front feet trimmed, and was taught to trailer-load in the space of a half an hour. Is it really impressive that after all this time she has a horse who still doesn’t have the complete set of ground manners and basic care skills that I think every horse should have? Not really. Is it impressive for this particular horse to be where she’s at? Absolutely. She’s at very least gone from a horse who was extremely likely to kill someone some day (I found out *after* I’d started working on picking up her feet that she’d already kicked the owner, a vet, a farrier, two trainers….) to a horse that is for the most part pretty safe to be around. Is she going to be show-ready or even trail-ready any time soon? No. Is she going to ever be the sort of horse that this woman can safely keep? I honestly don’t know, and I’ve told the owner as much, but bless her soul, she’s willing to see it through. One of the reasons that I very rarely take on any clients at all is simply because it’s a rare person who’s willing to keep spending and not have a finished saddle horse to show at the end of it. The problem started with the owner even having these horses — they are absolutely the last horses she should own, and even I with a LOT of years of working with mustangs would’ve hesitated to adopt these particular horses, because they’ve got issues out the wazoo — but I have to give her props for not giving up on them. I think if anybody else owned them, they’d have ended up on the meat truck by now. (She very nearly sent them to 3 Strikes guy for training and possible release on his “sanctuary.” Thank God she found me instead.) This one I’ve been working with most intensively is SO smart and SO steady (she sees scary things like a flapping tarp, pauses to examine them, makes a determination about whether they’re dangerous — she almost always decides they’re not — and then those objects are never a problem again) that she could make an excellent trail horse one day, but boy is it going to take some work to get her there, if we ever make it that far. And even with an owner that is so willing to see it through, we’ve had trouble time and time again with not communicating with each other well enough, with her having certain expectations (I’ve repeatedly forbidden her to halter her other horse, because that horse so does not see haltering as a positive experience even with her owner, but I suspect the owner is still doing it anyway), and with me trying to be careful about what I say or what predictions I make because I really don’t want her to pull these animals out of training. I’m basically her last resort, and the next stop would be wild horse sanctuaries… and I don’t know of any that aren’t full to the brim.
I think it’s very much related to the phenomenon I’ve seen time and again as the owner of an older horse who isn’t (yet) trained to ride: from everybody I meet I get accolades on having a great horse (she really is just superb
), but when I disclose that she isn’t yet trained to ride, people get a look as if I’ve just told them that I’m a mass murderer in disguise or something. Funny how it’s perfectly socially acceptable in the horse world to still own a horse that you’ve ridden absolutely into the ground in its youth and is now arthritic and crippled so you’ve retired it, but it’s like a social disease if you own a horse that’s older than five and still not started, even if there are good reasons.
To be fair to my horse, she was wild until she was 10-ish, then in a rescue recovering from starvation, and then I started training her another year before I actually took her home. I really think it’s perfectly reasonable that she’s somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 and hasn’t been properly started under saddle. She’s more than ready to be started now — she’s got ground skills like you wouldn’t believe, and I’m working on teaching her to drive — but I’m still working on finding a trainer that I can trust to do the work under saddle for me, and I’m saving money before I put her in training anywhere. I don’t want her to go in for 30 days only to have the trainer tell me she needs at least another 90 days that I don’t yet have the funds for. So I’m going to try to save enough for about 120 days, and assume that’s at least what it will take to put a good foundation on her. I’ve found a local trainer who sounds great — she rides English, which is rare in this area but also what I want to do with the horse, and she’s a veteran teacher and organizer for Pony Club — but have yet to meet up with her and really see her work with horses and people. (LOVE your advice on how to scope out a trainer before you send a horse to them, especially the watching them in the warm-up ring a show… awesome idea!) Ideally I’ll be able to put my horse in training with her and then when my horse is further along, I’ll be able to take lessons on her.
Boy, I’m long-winded today. tl;dr: What May Bee said. Totally. I agree.
My last horse in training was there for 10 months. His trainer did a fabulous job with him, he’s a big goofball, and she gave him lots of attention and pats which he responded well to, but got after him when he needed it. She knew him well enough to know that she couldn’t ride him HUS with spurs as it freaked him out, but it killed her legs to ride him without them. He just needs alot of leg as he’s on the lazy side. His first show, they didn’t place in a really big crowded pen, but his second show he picked up 7 pts only his second time shown HUS, and only 3 weeks back after being off for 6 weeks due to an injury.
He never did get show in pleasure which is what he was originally sent to training for, but sometimes, you have to adjust your plans. Rather than trying push into something he wasn’t ready for we tried something else, and even though he was one of the smallest horses in the pen, he has a big little trot. Funny thing is his mother, who I own went through the exact same thing, was sent for pleasure training, wasn’t strong enough physically to due it, switched her to HUS, and she was a star.
I’ve used two trainers who I can say nothing but possitive things about, they took awesome care of the horses. They were honest about the horses abilities and suggested alternates if something wasn’t working. I appreciate that. I had another trainer who strung me along for 9 month telling my horse was going to be the one, but yet she never progressed in her training beyond a basic level.
I used to be a trainer 15+ years ago, more than a few broken bones later, and i found a new career path. But even ex-trainers can get taken. Before the horse community was pretty small, everyone knew everyone else, and you could send your pleasure horse to be started by a reining trainer, and vice-versa. Now everyone and their cousin calls themself a trainer, gets a certificate from some idiot clinician and thinks they can train a horse. The only thing that gets trained is the owner – into writing check after check.
I watched my trainer work with a horse of a friend of mine first, a horse that is very talented, but that eventually will be for her kids as much as for herself. I was very impressed, and sent my own horse there for polishing, as I did the basics, but didn’t know how to put the show ring finish on. I’m thrilled I did so, it’s made a huge difference in my horse’s confidence, and my own, mainly because my trainer never forgot that this is a horse that I needed to be able to continue to ride and work with.
First he evaluated what my horse was like, physically and mentally, and confirmed that it was the right discipline for him, and then formulated his work schedule around what worked for my horse, tempermentally and for the target of showing western pleasure.
The biggest thing that made it an excellent experience, and one I will repeat is that I was shown everything; brought into the round pen, given lessons, shown every piece of tack and every bit that was used with my horse, had every procedure explained to me because my trainer wanted to be sure that I could continue this work at home, which I have been, with success. He constantly built up my confidence and my horse’s confidence that this was a foundation to work on, not a finished, untouchable project that I had to be careful not to mess up, which I have seen with many other trainers. I would recommend him to anyone, and have, because he never seems to forget that in the end, his job is furthering the relationship between horse and client. I was fortunate, but I kept my eyes open and paid attention to the situation my horse would be in before I sent him there. I haven’t had miracle reasults, but have had improved show ring results and a real understanding of how to continue to work with my horse towards my goals, and my trainer is never more than a call away for advice, whether my horse is in his barn at the time or not. Besides, as he says, he just plain likes horses. It sounds simple, but there are an awful lot of trainers out there who don’t seem to like horses at all.
I just adopted Freckles from Sunny Acres Ranch Appaloosa Herd Disperal (which was posted on this site.) he is such a sweetie. He is a 9 yr. old gelding that was greenbroke and then not ridden for about 4 yrs. What would be your recommendations, send him to a trainer for brush up or take him slowly and work him up ourselves…my daughter and I are good riders and knowledgeable but love advice from this site. And thank you to Shelly from Sunny Acres, she has such a nice place I recommend you take a look at the other horses she has to offer. http://sunnyacresranch.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=appaloosa
I am speaking as a trainer on this one. This may turn out to be a real can of worms, but here goes….
# 1 – SILK PURSE, SOW’S EAR. A trainer can not make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. If you bring me a dumpy little horse, built downhill, long backed, post legged, straight shoulder, there is no f’ing way he is ever going to perform well. He’s not built right, and neither I nor the sensible farrier or vet are going to try to do that kind of orthopedic surgery on him. Take a realistic look at your horse’s conformation. Read Deb’s books about conformation. Get a horse that is built well, which leads to # 2.
# 2 – SUITABILITY. A linebacker isn’t a sprinter. A sprinter isn’t a linebacker. Some jobs – going down the trail safely – are more about disposition and sensible training, but may are also very much about build. I would not ask a working western bred QH to do upper level dressage. Dressage horses need to be built uphill, with withers higher than their croup. I would not ask a really nice upright necked saddlebred to get down and look a cow in the eye. FORM TO FUNCTION. Ask your horse to do a job it is built/bred to do.
# 3 – RIDER’S SKILL. For the love of God, if you want to show your own horse, LEARN to ride. If you don’t have a good seat and independent hands, go find some dressage trainer to lunge you until you can go from the halt to the walk to the posting trot to the canter, then back to the trot, first posting, then sitting, then to the walk, then to the halt. All off your seat and legs. No stirrups, no reins, no use of the voice. So you don’t hang onto the reins to balance. I say go to a dressage instructor because almost no one else knows how to lunge properly to work on the rider’s seat. Take two or three lessons a week for MONTHS. It takes MONTHS to put down the muscle memory to do it right. There is no substitute for this work. Also, man or woman up and ADMIT it if you are scared; save all of us, trainer, horse, yourself, the misery of trying to make it work if you are scared. You may need a different horse with a different personality, even if you are in love with Twinkles. Or you made need to change to a different venue. If you are scared to jump, eventing is NOT YOUR SPORT.
# 4 – BRING A ‘READY TO GO’ HORSE. It should be easy to catch, halter, lead, tie, groom, tack up, hose off, load, trim or shoe, vet, lunge if old enough for work, etc. Don’t spend training $$ on something so basic. If you don’t know how to work on that stuff, WHY THE F did you buy a horse that wasn’t already handled properly? And please don’t tell me you bred it, because if you can’t teach a horse all that ground work stuff you have NO BUSINESS being a breeder.
# 5 – BE REASONABLE IN YOUR EXPECTATIONS. My daughter is 46 and cannot remember learning to ride. She has literally ridden 1000s of different horses. She is tall, thin, fit, brave, has a great seat and hands like silk, plus she has shown for years. She pays attention to what she is doing. She doesn’t have to lean over and look to see what lead she is on. Her own personal horse is an extremely well-bred mare who is also extremely well trained, and worth a lot. Don’t ask why you or your daugher and horse are not doing the same. Compare yourself or your daughter and/or horse to someone else in the same general category, which is beginner or novice or slightly experienced, or whatever you want to call it.
# 6 – THINGS TAKE TIME. A lot of time. I agree with Fugs that 18 months is a reasonable amount of time for a ‘ring around the rosy’ horse doing a group class of walk, jog lope or walk, trot canter. If you want a good working hunter or jumper, add more time. At least a year. All the flat work has to be good first. If you want an upper level dressage horse, be prepared to spend $25,000 or so on the well bred prospect, and plan to go up no faster than one level per year, even if your horse is getting all 7s while showing. It takes time to build the horse’s body up to where it can do such demanding work. If you want an endurance horse, realizae that it takes a long time to put good strong legs on a youngster, to get the bone solid and the tendons and stuff slowly and safely brought up to a level of fitness to enable the horse to stay sound and do well. If you want a working cow horse, same thing, it takes money money money for the right horse, and then more time and money to get it where it needs to be. If you want – well, you get the idea. It takes time.
# 7 – THINGS TAKE MONEY. I often get asked why I charge $600 a month for full board/training. That is because I have to pay for (a) the F-350 truck and the six horse trailer, plus fuel, insurance, maintenance; (b) feed, hay, bedding, barn help, insurance, supplies, equipment; and (c) I am not going to work for $1.25 an hour to train your horse. If stall board is $300 a month, and training is another $300 a month, and I work your horse six days a week, I am just about making $10 per time to work the horse. Hello???
# 8 – LISTEN TO MY ADVICE. I normally tell the ‘can’t ride well, horse isn’t trained or built right or suitable’ owner to SELL THE HORSE. Spend what you were spending on supporting the horse to get really good lessons on one of my super well trained retired show horses. (See the item above, on learning to ride!) Get some local show experience. Spend a year – YES, A YEAR – doing things right. Then we will go out and, for nothing but my expenses, no percentage involved, I will help you find a suitable horse that you can buy. You will know what disposition, size, gaits, attitude, fitness level, realistic performance level, etc. that you are getting. You can take the horse home or board it with me, and get lessons, but you will now be able to work your own horse. You will actually spend less doing things this way than any other way, as you will KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING.
If I had to pick a couple that were the most important, I would pick # 1 – educate your eye – and whichever is the one on LEARN TO RIDE.
Thanks for the chance to vent, fugs!
Wonder Horse: Your post made TOTAL sense to me! It was in the first couple of years of having horses that I learned that horses will do what they can get away with. If you discipline them (not abuse) for bad behavior, they will give it up. If you laugh because they “tickle” you……….well, it isn’t very funny when people get hurt!
When we had our first horse we made the mistake of buying a 5 year old scare-of-his-own-shadow 1/2 arab that was ranch broke. No joke, I was lunging this horse and he spooked at his own poop! Anyway, we ended up paying someone to ride him because we were afraid to ride him (and rightly so) and then paid a trainer. This trainer was wife to the Barn Manager and we found out she was an alcholic and didn’t even work with him, so that only lasted a month. I finally decided it wasn’t worth it and would have sold him, but my daughter started riding him. He ended up being a gaming horse for an 11 year old girl later on. So in the end, we must have done something right. It was a rough beginning to the horse world though and I haven’t hired a trainer since.
Al, there isn’t a single thing there that I disagree with, and $600 is cheap for full training.
I particularly laughed at #3 because I rant all the time that MOST horse problems are caused by POOR RIDING and far too many people want a trainer to wave a magic wand and fix the horse (these are the people that buy into the Parelli dreamland of a “safe” horse that won’t DO “unsafe” things) when the horse simply is not going to ride well for them EVER unless their riding improves substantially and they become confident and solid enough to clearly ask for what they want, not backing down if the first answer is “nah, I don’t feel like it today.”
I also rant all the time about the value of longe work. No reins! No stirrups! The best way to use your seat and legs is to take away all other means of controlling the horse. You will learn, trust me.
This kind of work is NOT just for english riders. You can go no reins, no stirrups, western as well.
It’s not just in this country — or in racing or Western-type breeds — that people expect slow-cooked results from microwave training (to vary the analogy a bit ;o) I’ve seen horses imported from Europe where 6 y.o.’s are schooling PSG and by the time they are ready to show at that level are laid up with soft tissue injuries. I’m sure there isn’t a ligament “bug” that attacks these horses, but I’m thinking that pushing talented and willing youngsters to these upper levels is not good for their growth and development, particularly when most of the warmblood people will tell you that warmbloods mature later than most breeds. I don’t know this to be a fact, this is just what they SAY, but even so, a big horse does not mean a MATURE horse, and this is where the problems begin.
Of course, I am this ginormous expert — with a 15 y.o. OTTB that I’m trying to get to First Level, so you can take my analogy and toss out the “microwave” altogether. I’m just slow-cookin’ my way to First Level. In a few more years the horse and I can be members of the Century Club (where his age and mine add up to 100 ;o)
My old red mare (who just got adopted, hooray!) had to learn that even if you are ancient and cute, you cannot barge over people because the wash stall is scary. She got the four-finger nose-pop herself last night. But she had improved by the end of the session, and we’ll work on it again tonight. Old broodmares, gotta love ‘em!
This is EXACTLY what happened with me.
I was asked to break a 13.2 traditional cob, which was apparently lunging well with a saddle and had been leaned over. the owner pushed and pushed me for a time scale and i said i should imagine, all going well, the average horse would be walk, trotting and cantering by a month.
Well, he arrived and the owners were clearly absolutely clueless. they’d got him from an auction the year before told he was broken etc, and they put a saddle on him and he clearly wasnt and they were told he was three by a friend as they couldnt age by the teeth so he was now ready to be broken in. (I aged him via the teeth and he was clearly 4.5-5). They had no idea about basic horse management and had a controlling headcollar with the rope over the poll and the special ring for you to clip for LEADING ONLY, and they were tying up and travelling him with it!
I lunged him the first day and he was good, with saddle and stirrups down. The second day he was absolutely brilliant so i thought i’d sit on him and get someone to lead him. Apparently not, he went MENTAL bucking and broncing with such force i was off by 10m.
I re-thought my plans and slowly introduced him to being leaned over, touched on the side, walking with weight on his back, being used to weight banging against his sides. He was also a naturally very flighty pony, he’d clearly been beaten in the past – when you raised your hand to pat him he shrunk away but was slowly getting better.
It took me a week to be able to lean over him in walk with someone leading, another 3 days to be able to touch his sides whilst doing it. After 2 weeks i was able to sit on him and be lead in a circle.
After another week i was able to put my leg on without him freaking and physically jumping.
After 4 weeks he was at the stage where he was able to start trotting. However the owner wouldnt pay for more than a month (may i add i was charging less than half of the professional trainers), and thought he should be doing much more and wouldnt let me explain that one little thing too quickly and it’d blow his brains, he’d be back to square one.
So he took him back. I’ve heard no more from them but i have found out several interesting facts – a girl tried to ride him before he was sent to me and he sent her to hospital. they’d been trying to break him by force. they’d sent him to several places which couldnt cope with him. How would they expect me to work with a RUINED pony in the same time as a blank canvas?? some people infuriate me.
woah essay.
When I bought my horse, he was already living at his trainer’s stable, in full training, at the seller’s expense. When the sale was final, I told the trainer I’d like him to stay with her another 30 days. She was thrilled, and told me it would be $680… and I asked her how much the total would be, with board added in!
Just to say, I agree that $600 sounds cheap for full training, and it sounds like you’ve got a good program going there.
(Disclaimer: I’m an AA who is riding at low levels with a GP trainer…) I think 4 years for Grand Prix is really, really optimistic. I don’t often see GP horses under 8 years old. And if I do they may have been “rushed”. Putting the strain of collection on a growing horse is pretty risky, IMHO. Many Warmbloods are still growing until 8 years. Most GP horses I know are around 10-14 years old at their peak. So if you figure they are put under saddle at 3, then that is 7-11 years. Perhaps if the horse is already well trained in something comparable than switching to dressage would be quicker.
Amen.
OT… anyone see the begging emails from Crossed Sabers (Celeita Kramer)? Lawd, I wonder why they’re suddenly having 12 horses returned to them….
In the lessons I took (western) I was taught to ride walk trot canter without reins or stirrups. I agree that it was the best thing that could have happened. Believe me that when you are learning to ride and learning reining at the same time you need to have an independent seat. I was put in the round pen on a show horse that won the Dixie National Freestyle the year before and believe me you get a workout but you have a wonderful seat at the end. By the end of lesson number four I was doing walk, trot, canter(lope), spin, sliding stops, and rollbacks in to the fence both directions with no reins or stirrups. My trainer was wonderful at getting me to understand what I was doing wrong and how to correct it. He broke it down step by step so I could understand. It really helped me so when I sent my horse to a different trainer I could understand what I should be asking and how to ask it so as not to hinder the horse(OTTB being refreshed for trail riding) during the training process.
My training experience was wonderful. I purchased my mare when she was 4 days old. I brought her home at 6 months of age. Her breeder had done an excellent job of exposing her to all sorts of scarey things and working onher ground manners. She has always had a fearless streak and a very personable attitude. She had lived on my property for 4 years, where she was exposed to lots of different things but never ridden. She had been tacked up, but she was a late bloomer. Didn’t really outgrow the fuglies till well into her 5th year. I sent her to the trainer when she was 5. Her traininer was well respected in the show ring, it was a married couple, he focuses on western and his wife on english. I had called him a year before and told him I had a mare that would need to be trained to ride for my husband to ride out on our local wilderness. I wanted a well trained horse and for me showing was not a priority but that if she shows a leaning towards one discipline over the other then they could take her in that direction.
Training fees were about $800 a month, included weekly riding lessons for me or my husband first on their own horses and then when she was ready on my own mare. Vet, farrier, worming, grain was extra. The trainers live on site, the location is gated with a key pad entry, the horses were worked twice a day 6 days a week, groomed and bathed after each session and cooled on a hot walker. For the first 2 weeks my mare was kept in the quaratine barn then moved into the main barn with was always clean and well lit.
My mare took to both styles of riding, but seemed happiest training in western pleasure. She was in training for 10 months and I was riding her in lessons for 8 of those months. I am so happy with my trainer and the way they brought her along. She came back from the training a nicer, more mature horse but still has kept her personality.
Great topic! I skulked around a few shows this year watching trainers with the intention of picking one next year for my youngster. What an education! Followed one BNT that left the schooling ring and rode behind a barn. You can guess what happened there. Another lesser known trainer that folks told me did not have any people skills actually handled her horses great, handled the owners in a very businesslike manner, and her and her customers defeated the behind-the-barn trainer and crew in many classes. My horse might not be ready to start showing next year (late bloomer which is fine with me) so I will continue to watch and learn.
I learned a valuable tool from Mugwump… I had a horse in training that I was taking lessons on every week and every week I would ask the trainer “where are you at with him” and I would get “he is coming along nicely” or something similar. I was getting extremely fustrated that she wasn’t answering me with more of an explanation. I mentioned it on mugwump’s blog and she said that I should try asking a more direct question. Duh… So the next lesson I made a list of questions that I wanted to know and made them very specific. It sounds so logical now, but it didn’t occur to me that she might not really be understanding what I wanted to know.
I asked my trainer the other night how long it would take to train a finished reining horse from start to finish. She said at the very minimum 18 months. And that is for the really talented, athletic, fast learner. And lets face, we don’t all have one of those in our backyard. She also relayed a bit of info she had heard from trainer Bob Avila, he was asked “how long does it take to become competitive at the National Reined Cowhorse shows”, his answer was – ten years. So even if you go out and buy that perfect horse, it is going to take awhile to be competitive. I think some owners think with the right horse, right trainer they are going to waltz in and sweep the show world off their feet and that is just a pipe dream.
>>I skulked around a few shows this year watching trainers with the intention of picking one next year for my youngster. What an education! Followed one BNT that left the schooling ring and rode behind a barn. You can guess what happened there. Another lesser known trainer that folks told me did not have any people skills actually handled her horses great, handled the owners in a very businesslike manner, and her and her customers defeated the behind-the-barn trainer and crew in many classes. My horse might not be ready to start showing next year (late bloomer which is fine with me) so I will continue to watch and learn.< <
Yeah, that’s why I suggest that. Skulking around the shows, particularly when you’re new and nobody knows who you are, is incredibly informative.
One of the worst trainers ever profiled here on this site is Dr. Jekyll when clients are watching and Mr. Hyde the second they walk out the door. It happens a LOT.
As a trainer of sorts–really I call myself an instructor as I don’t train others’ horses, I just instruct from the ground–I was recently “fired” by two clients, a mom and daughter team who have three horses. It came down to this: I told them flat out that their horses have no respect for them, that they are going to get hurt if they continue on the path they’re on. They think they have these amazing connections with their horses, when those of us who know better know their horses walk all over them. It’s not cute when your horse is looking for treats and he steps on your foot or tears your pants pocket. Or worse, bucks you off when you’re trying to do a barrels lesson on him. With their show TWH, he needs tons more riding and discipline then they have been putting into him, and he lost a lot at the last show because of it. I knew he wasn’t ready, and I told them, but they said oh no, we know he’ll win a blue ribbon. Then I told them I don’t think he’s going to be ready for the next show, and we need to switch him to a snaffle bit and start really getting his body shape changed for him to be competative. Then we could show again at the next show in January (we have very few gaited horse shows out here in AZ). Okay, now I didn’t say it in so many words–I was polite and PC about it, as best I could be. But overall, they still fired me. They said they feel they have lost their connection with me. They also said that they bought their show TWH to show him, so that’s what they want to do. They don’t want to miss a show. But never mind that they get upset when they don’t win and get really frustrated and angry, and don’t listen when I tell them that the reason their horse doesn’t win is they don’t exercise him enough.
I’ve grappled with this situation for quite some time. Was this the wrong thing to do, to tell them the truth? I’ve made the decision that no, it’s not. Honestly, I don’t want to work with people that I can’t be honest with. I had to learn humility myself when I was learning what I know now. I learned I had to be open to what any trainer said, no matter what it was, and take that information and use it to the best that worked for my horse. I understood that yes, sometimes I owned a dangerous horse, but once he was trained, he was no longer dangerous. I learned that dangerous doesn’t always mean mean or spiteful–it means a horse that has no respect for its rider has no problem dumping it on the ground when things get tough. He’s not being mean, he’s just being a horse. I believe that if others can’t be open like that, then I have nothing to teach them. I’m not out to do quick fixes or just get the money, and it’s a waste of my time when the students won’t listen. Sure, I lost X amount of dollars each week, but honestly, I don’t care. It’s that I have found peace of mind in this situation, that I am no longer struggling, and that is worth more than money could ever cover.
I talked this over with a trainer friend of mine, who is a John Lyons Certified trainer. She has taught me so much when it comes to communication with the horse and how repect between both of you and natural balance and good riding WILL get you results, no matter what, and no matter what discpline. She and I are completely on the same page with it, and we agree that sometimes you just have to weed out the bad ones and do your best to keep the good ones. I have three really good students right now that are like sponges–they absorb what I give them and then also think for themselves. They ask me about ideas they’ve heard about and are willing to experiment and try new things when we work. It’s great–it’s wonderful to get that kind of feedback. Those are the clients I will keep for a long time.
Great timing for the post, as I’m looking to send my 15yo Dutch Warmblood Talisman to my trainer Don in the next couple of weeks. I’ve been taking lessons with Don for the past year since purchasing Tals and love his approach and horses (he speaks “horse”). The reason for choosing to send him for training – is that we’ve hit a bit of a rough patch that I just don’t have the skills to sort out.
It seems that some years ago (long before me) Tals figured that he could dominate the rider through threatening bad behavior, i.e. don’t ask me to canter or I’ll get strong with you, and take off bucking. Now, I don’t expect this behavior pattern to be “fixed” – I mean, how do you un-learn something, I’m just hoping that Tals will think twice before saying, “hell no – I’ll be a bad horsey if you ask again”.
Of course I still have dreams of riding him at FEI level dressage and wowing the crowds with our soft Classical riding, however for the moment will settle for drama free canter work.
al2payne, THANK YOU. Your list is wonderful, and I absolutely do the same thing on #8. I don’t know how many people I’ve carefully explained to that even though you love this horse, it is going to kill you because he/she has no respect for you and does not love you back, so it’s time to find something else. I also agree that learning to ride and learning what kind of horse you need for x discipline is also crucial. It amazes me how this I WANT IT NOW society has bred the intelligence right out of people. Riding and owning horses is hard work; it’s not a 2-day-a-week hobby. And if you treat it as a hobby and don’t take the time to do it right, then you won’t be successful in your discipline and will always have problems, even if it’s just trail riding in your backyard.
>>They said they feel they have lost their connection with me. < <
Well, shit, apparently you just needed to stomp on their feet a few times and bite them in the pants pocket. Geez, how could you not have figured that out?
My trainer and are training my horse together; I ride, she screams at me (not really, just lots of coaching). We are training in dressage because we both enjoy it; have been at it for 1-1/2 years, and have gotten satisfactory scores through training level 2.
I’ve had him for 2-1/2 years. He was a schoolie, so it took a while for him to learn that need to listen to me. Had to get through a “not gonna do it-buck, buck, buck” phase.
Things were going along great until a year ago. He had colic surgery, three months of twice daily hour long hand walks, and another two months of bringing him back verrry sloooowly to regular work. Of course, during that time he trained me to believe that he needed to be treated like glass, so my trainer and I started over as though training a greenie. It’s taken a while, but we’re moving forward again. Hope to be showing at level 1 by the end of next summer. I take two lessons a week, and practice and or longe other days, with a day off every week just hang out together.
The pupose this novel is to agree wholeheartedly with the slow and steady approach. I’m in no hurry, and don’t consider it a setbackto revisit the basics.
And I love longe line lessons!
I appreciate the fact that none of you flamed me for telling it like it is from the trainer’s point of view. One more thing to add. I guess this would be # 9?
TAKE ADVICE FROM PEOPLE WHO KNOW MORE THAN YOU.
I stabled and taught at a barn with other owners and their horses. This woman had a gelding that was feral. I will not mention his breed. Yes, you could catch him, tack him up, ride him, but he was still feral. He would buck you off and come after you, and I don’t mean just kick up his heels as he went by. He would go after you to kill you if you made him mad. Tied to the wall, it took five of us to hold him still enough for the vet to trank him so that she could then give him his shots. It took him 14 hours in the hot sun with no water to give in and let me catch him, and lead him outside the paddock to drink. He savaged other horses.
His owner bought this horse when I was not with her, after I had told her that I would go with her on any horse shopping trip in her car for free, as long as she bought me lunch. The seller was a con artist horse dealer who gave her this song and dance about the horse needing to be rescued from a potential buyer who would abuse it. They had to lead him to get him to the new farm. She could not ride well enough to canter but she LOVED horses and thought she could establish a special relationship with the horse because she planned to tell him she had saved him from a bad owner.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, don’t personify an animal like this. Actually, if you are that bad, don’t OWN an animal.
She could not even halter and lead him. She asked me what to do. I told her, “Put him down, he is going to injury or kill someone.” She cried and left. We went thru this for weeks. A teenager at the barn who could ride anything got on him one day when he was in a quote good unquote mood. She asked him to walk and trot a bit, then asked for the canter. He bucked her off and went after her, and if her dad and boyfriend had not been big, brave and determined, he would have killed her. The owner saw all of this, and finally had him put down.
So how is the VLS doing????
>>So how is the VLS doing????< <
He’s awesome. Has so much fine tuning installed now that I feel like that scene at the beginning of “Pretty Woman” where Richard Gere can’t figure out how to drive stick in the Lotus.
I do still ride him but if I do, I just cruise him around in the bitless bridle, usually bareback. I don’t want to confuse him with mixed signals, so his trainer does all the serious riding. I did threaten to ride him in an upcoming Halloween costume broomstick polo tournament, however, until it was pointed out to me I may not find a broom that long. Damn…
I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE my instructors!!!!
I started riding a couple of years ago after a (ahem) year hiatus, and readily admit that I think the fetal position is the best way to ride – sometimes. LOL Found them through word of mouth, and have recommended them to every single person who asks me where I ride.
Both of my instructors are exceptionally patient with me, and answers all of my 40-million relentless questions. Even though they coach an equestrian drill team which does trick riding, vaulting and roman riding, they never make me feel stupid or dumb for asking something or for only being at the stage of lunging without reins to work on balance. Or they’ll let me do something the wrong way, just so I can realize for myself that it is the wrong way.
Or she’ll suggest bareback, which sounds great until I’m standing on the mounting block next to a 17h draft horse. When I say, “Hmmm, maybe not tonight….”, she doesn’t let me back down, and look – I’m still alive to tell about it!
I’ve gotten to the point where I will be at a horse rescue and one of the horses has bad manners, and I hear one of the instructor’s voice in the back of my head saying “You might not want to let him do that…”
Or I send them a photo and YouTube video of an OTTB that I’ve been drooling over for the last 2 years through CANTER, and they both take the time to see things that I (being completely smitten) would TOTALLY overlook if left on my own (because she is GORGEOUS!) and PRETTY!, and explain why it wouldn’t be the horse they recommend for me. (see al2payne’s #8 comment above.)
When my 9 year old daughter (who was also taking lessons) would pop one of the drill horses too hard after being warned that he will take off, and our instructor would yell at her, she would always apologize to me afterwards. I told her, “That’s your horse, and you are responsible for him as well as my daughter. This is your barn and your rules, and you are in charge. Yell away.”
I’m going through this for the first time ever right now. I have a just turned three year old and am scoping out trainers. She’s a WB and is still growing a lot so I’m not keen to hurry her, will probably spend the next few months continuing her ground work (she’s lunging well and doing all that stuff already) taking her places and ponying her off one of my others before she goes to the trainer. And I’m still scoping out trainers.
I have so much CHOICE! My filly is bred for high level dressage but that’s not necessarily what I want her for. Sure, I’ll capitalise on her movement but I’d like a solid allrounder to maybe do some low/medium level eventing one day, go out for a trail ride the next. So I’ve considered the standard all rounder trainer with a good record, the western trainer who comes highly recommended as getting all horses ready with grounds as good riding horses and installs basic dressage capabilities for further training later, the NHS dude who says he can do absolutely everything with your horse then make it bring you a cup of tea in bed every morning, the common sense horsemanship guy who seems just a little too harsh for my taste and then the super dooper expensive guy with a PhD in equine learning theory and results that really speak for themselves.
To be honest right now I’m thinking money be damned and choose the guy who spends the time when he’s not training working on elephant learning theory in Nepal. He just seems amazing. I don’t think I’m buying into wank either because he has trained MANY horses to Grand Prix level and well, they wouldn’t be able to charge what they do for training if their results didn’t speak for themselves. BUT. I’m taking even this lot very carefully, I have taken lessons at their facility on horses they’ve trained and before I send my little girl there I will be going to a clinic with my mare to see whether we really like their teaching style.
It DOES feel like I’m a parent. The main thing that keeps coming back to me is how much responsibility I have, a horse with amazing potential in my hands and I will NOT screw her up.
I agree with anyone that says that the rider needs to be trained when the horse is in training! I am horse-less right now (and will be for at least another year) but in the meantime I am taking lessons. My next horse will be well trained with all the buttons and I want to make sure I am as good of a rider as my (next) horse deserves! Afterall…..what good will all those buttons be if I don’t know how to push them
)
Sort of the other side of the coin – my trainer loves getting horses that have, shall we say, “issues”. Example 16 plus tb with a total tude. Made nasty faces in his stall, threatened to bite. Would try to bite and kick when being tacked up. Would strike out at people trying to enter his stall. So, he comes to her barn as a trade for another horse. First thing that happens is that trainer and horse have a discussion about who the barn and his stall belong to. Then, he doesn’t take a bite of food until a human says to. You will tolerate being touched all over your body. Then after a couple of nice rides – the ride came along. She asked him to WALK over a cross rail. No. Yes. No. He actually sat down and she slid off (figured he was flipping), but got back on and they finally walked over the damned cross rail. Spring forward a bit – he goes to a show and discovers that the same rules apply there as they do at home. You will not bite, kick, snap or be otherwise obnoxious. Ok – he likes knowing the box of his world travels.
Spring forward a bit more: while he still makes faces as you approach his stall, me, I just rub his face – and he remembers that nobody is afraid of him here -dammit. He has excellent ground manners. In fact, has become somewhat of a pocket pony. My trainer took him to a show – totally rode a jump wrong and he saved her – she said he was so surprised when she patted him he almost for got where he was going.
At the end of that round, as trainer and horse were heading for the out gate, I almost teared up – shameless I know, but this horse had such a look of pride about him – he had done his job and done it well – that it was just amazing.
My horse came from a well known cow horse breeder, he was priced at $25,000 as a cow horse/ reining prospect, as a foal. Rocky was then bought (not by me) and then trained. Rocky’s training went good untill he started to buck and got bad habits. The trainer rode him for 3 hours straight bucking hoping he would stop- but Rocky never did stop. His owner had nothing to do with him, so he sadly sold him to my family for $1,500. My mom took him to a coropactrict (SP…) who found out Rocky had his pelves out of line, so he fixed it and Rocky’s bad habits slowly went away with time, he used to be so scared of everything..When I first got him you walk up to him to pat him he flinched.
Rocky is amazing..He has such a sweet nice lope and does nice circles around the arena, he also has a HUGE sliding stop, Heck Rocky even has a very nice turnback, but…Rocky cannot do that fast spin.
If Rocky has that amazing spin he would be competing with the pros. I wounder why he can’t spin well, we took him to several reining trainers but they said he just slow. I guess it’s from his past training..?
Agree with everything al2payne said, most especially # 3 & #7. Learn to ride, first, preferably on something old and forgiving enough that I won’t have to fix it every time you ride it – and don’t complain when I can ride it and you can’t. Then pay me with more than a “thank you.”
When I first took lessons, it took me a couple years to figure out they kept putting me on the goofy green non-lesson horses during lessons – rather than learning to ride, I learned to fix other people’s messes and training problems. I learned to stick to a horse in dozens of crazy situations. Then my senior year of high school, I took a year of dressage lessons that actually taught me to ride right. Bless that woman’s heart, she wore me out and I loved her for it. I can still hear her when I ride English – you’re posting a mile high! Don’t cross your hand over! Now, drop your stirrups!
(And on the rare occasion I do ride a good hunt seat horse anymore – I realize all the western riding in the WORLD won’t keep you in shape the way regularly riding English does!!!!)
Then, for many years, I was the “go-to” person at the barn because I would train on a per-ride rate, $10-$15 per ride, and of course with that comes the catching from the pasture, grooming, hoof handling, hosing off, even deworming and hoof trimming on a few memorable occasions – pretty much everything lazy boarders who want to say they have a horse but not do ANYthing remotely related to getting dirty or sweaty around said horse – would not do. I did it to try to make the horses a little more useful when owner dear or owner’s child got tired of paying their board and decided to sell. But, on the occassion they DID want to ride (rarely) – most didn’t ever quite get the “just because I can ride your horse 3 days a week and she doesn’t buck/bite/bolt/rear with me because she knows I won’t put up with her shit, doesn’t mean you can climb your can’t-ride-anyway ass on her and she won’t try it with you.”
Example: the Parelli-ite whose mare was allowed to freely wander the barn trailing $50 Parelli lead rope because she ‘didn’t like to stand tied’ – you betcha she would start crowhopping the MINUTE “Mommy’s” foot touched the stirrup, since she knew ‘Mommy’ would just put her up and feed her. She was so fat and lazy she couldn’t even really buck – and smart enough it only took 5 minutes the first 4 or 5 rides to convince her it was MUCH easier to move forward.
I still have a few friends who try to guilt me into the “free training” – would you be able to take so-and-so for two weeks to ride so I can (insert activity) next month? Um, I pay BOARD on my horses to have them at a facility I can actually ride year-round, I can’t just bring in outside horses for a couple weeks for NOTHING, ride for NOTHING, and hand them back over to you so you can go have your once per year ride. It doesn’t work that way.
Nope, wouldn’t be able to cut it as a “pro” trainer – I’d be too busy pissing people off at every turn.
>>Their horse bites at pockets. All pockets. Chest, Pants, etc. Horse motioned to bite at me, i motioned to hit horse didn’t move back, so i did a 4 finger slap on the nose, the horse spooked (because hell, had never been told no before) and the owner got really emotional and started crying because i hurt her horse’s feelings.<<
kinda like the barn I was at the other day where their mini but my arm and when I went to hit it "no" they scolded me and said they had a no hit policy….wow….the horse probably knows that! Thats probably WHY it is biting in the first place!
grrr
“I’ve seen horses imported from Europe where 6 y.o.’s are schooling PSG and by the time they are ready to show at that level are laid up with soft tissue injuries.”
I have been told by those who go to the European “prospect” sales, that the buyers’ expectation is that they will see a horse at 4 or 5 that is able to demonstrate at least a passage — and preferably also piaffe — at an age when they shouldn’t even be doing collected gaits. They are also presented in double bridles. The trainers that prepare horses for these sales do whatever is necessary to get the results — the same mindset that Cleve Wells and his ilk demonstrate.
Trainers bring their clients to these sales and encourage them to spend large money for “spectacular prospects” who will never be able to reach their full potential, physically or mentally.
Those in the know never buy a horse at these sales, but buy from breeders — and often prefer to buy horses that have never been ridden, because once a horse is prepped for these sales, he is very likely never to be the same again.
My trainer will be showing my horse once he is finished just to make sure he will be ok in the ring and see if there are any issues. He is going to need someone with the confidence for a positive experience. If I am full of nerves just to be riding him or being in the show ring he might not have a good experience. He needs the positive reinforcement. Thats why she is the trainer. Dont get me wrong I will be showing under her wing. She works with you as well. I am not a trainer. She has experience and Iseen horses she has worked with. But my appy was injured so we have had a set back. But he will be back into training soon. Yes he is older. He is 6 he has ground manners and he knows his stuff. But to get him going under saddle I just need help and direction. I have raised him since he was a baby and never imagined all the thingsI have learned and I still have a whole lot to learn. it took me a while to get where we are now but he has no real bad habits and he has gone through his stages and I felt like he just wasnt ready mentally and physically as well. I think mentally he wasnt ready and that could have been all because of me holding him back. I realized I never should have treated him as a “baby”. I was babying him and didnt realize it. I know now. Other things I was firm with him and some things I should have caught in the begining. But I know what needs to be done and I correct it and leave him alone.I had a lot of bad habits. I use to nag a lot. play with the lead and move around too much when correcting my horses. Now I get the message across and I am clear with my cues. its little things that do lead to bigger things. its hard for me to talk about it. But I do want people to realize its not easy to raise a young horse and sometimes we have to look at ourselves and be able and willing to change ourselves in order to be a better leader. Even with a horse thats been there and done that. We need to look at ourselves and be able to see what needs to be improved on. We can always do better. No ones is perfect. We need to learn from our mistakes and be open to what other knowledgable horse people are telling you. You have to be able to listen. I think listening is the biggest skill there is as a horse owner. When your horse is doing something they are not suppose to you can look at the owner and you can see why. A horses behavior is a reflection of the owner. A horse cant lie and all a person can do is come up with excuses. And thats all they are if they try to cover up for their horses behavior. Well not to get off track I think a good trainer should show the horse in a few schooling shows. Schooling shows are an excellent way to get a horse exposed to different things. You don’t want to take a green horse right out there and start showing at the bigger shows, you will be throwing money out the window. I think starting small and not putting great expectations on your horse is the way to start. My boyfriend tells me I should be riding my horse by now. I should have started him at 2. Well If I am not a trainer and I have just hired a trainer for him and he is staying with me for the rest of his life. What is the hurry? I want to be able to ride him but If i dont know how to go about getting him started under saddle then why create a bad situation for the both of us. i have an excellent trainer for him. I know I should have had her sooner working with him. But he does lunge well. he tends to get lazy. A lot of work to keep him going. But by next year he should start showing at the smaller schooling shows.
Hmm, where to start…well, I guess with the fact that I’m like rollkursucks, in that I would rather do as much of the work as I can myself, to strengthen my relationship with the horse. I’m hoping to eventually be a professional trainer, but I don’t claim to be at that level just yet. I will work with other people’s horses that are already started for free, or for exercise ride pay, but I make no guarantees. My current project is the 3 year old mustang gelding I adopted through the BLM in June of this year. I was very firm from the start that I would do all the work with him – sometimes with someone giving advice, but always me interacting with him. Oh, we’ve had our rough patches, that’s for sure. At this point he leads, lunges (on and off line), grooms, loads in a stock trailer (I haven’t had a chance to train him to other types), and can be ridden bareback (usually with a pad). I did get a saddle on him *once*, but the ensuing bucking fit left him rather traumatized and I have decided not to push the issue until my favorite mustang trainer can come out and help me work him through it correctly. I was the first (and only) person to back him; he was grazing and barely noticed. Right now I am able to take him out on the local trails in a hackamore and bareback pad; he does W/T/C/stop/turn, and will go past “scary” things with lots of encouragement. That’s fine for me. I’m sure a pro would have him a lot farther by now, but I don’t mind taking it slow. I am hoping to eventually compete him in endurance, but he’s only 3 and definitely not ready mentally or physically for a serious training program. Other than that I might train him in classical dressage (Spanish style, not competition), or stunt riding, or whatever else he shows an aptitude for, when he’s ready. I am currently competing in eventing and don’t have the time or money to compete in two disciplines. I have the rest of his life, for now I’m perfectly happy to be able to take him on the trail.
On the other end of the scale is a young event prospect I am considering buying. He’s very green, and I don’t think his initial training was done very well. But he has beautiful conformation and movements, and from the little time I’ve spent with him seems to have a good mind. If I do get him he will stay at my trainer’s barn where I can ride him 5 days a week through the winter, and work with my trainer often. I have hopes of being able to compete him seriously next summer, but I don’t expect it. If I can get to a few events and participate, just to expose him to it, I’ll be happy. He’s only 6 and also has the rest of his life to get there.
Lastly, my cooling down routine with my old Appy schoolmaster was to drop the stirrups and reins, and close my eyes. I let her wander wherever she wanted, and just nudged her whenever she stopped or got stuck in a corner. If I didn’t feel like doing normal work that day I would also do it at trot. That’s a VERY good exercise for being able to move with your horse and anticipate them. Then there was the galloping up and down the pasture bareback
Ok, so I’m not always the safest rider, but the only way a horse can get me off is by bucking hard when I’m in an English saddle or bareback.
While I don’t call myself a trainer, I have trained some horses. I worked with horses for people in exchange for board. And through word of mouth trained two horses for a lady although I didn’t have my own horse at the time, and I worked with a boarding stable I had boarded at to board the horses, while I trained them.
I put 30 days on them and did have them comfortable doing WT, and some C. being comfortable outside and in a busy place. The owner intended to sell the two at a catalog sale. The younger pony gelding sold, and the 5 yr old mare turned out to be a nice, lazy WP horse.
I trained my own horse, a saddlebred cross/ w/ probably a TB. Her grandsire is a WC and we know nothing else of her breeding. I got her a a 2 1/2 yr old, and she had already been through 2 owners. She had had some good training as a weanling, but was almost untouched and wild as a mustang when I got her.
She is NEUROTIC to a T, but we have a great relationship. I have done dressage/ combined training(baby combined), trail riding, barrel racing/gymkhana (we placed in a few classes, and got a first in key hole), a parade in costume(more this year). I pony green horses off of her and love her to death!!
I have offered to let other people ride her, and they wouldn’t touch her with a 10 foot cattle prod.
I intend to teach her to drive, and do combined driving.
We are also going to do Saddleseat, she has the movement for it.
She is 7 and my wonderful strange horse.
I am in the middle of training my friends arab mare who is 6-7 years old. Since she wants to be part of all the training, its taking longer, but she has ridden her on a trail ride, and her mare is doing very very well.
I will start another 2 youngsters next year, and am training a pony, a long yearling and working/riding two geldings for a part time job.
So I get to play with horses, and am a nanny to boot!!!
Love this blog!!
My boy Pan was born in Russia and imported as a halter-broke two-year-old. He lived in a huge pasture with all the other boys until he was six, when his owner turned him into the mare field. While the ladies taught him horse manners and he was naturally easy-going, when I got him he knew nothing. Sent him to a trainer who didn’t work out; she was far too rough with him, and I’m not one to sentimentalize an animal’s feelings. Sent him to another trainer who got him started and, when he got tired of being attacked whenever he pushed Pan a little, advised that he be gelded. That made a huge difference, as did patience, but Pan was still in another part of the country. I found a great little boarding facility near me and brought him here. He was very nervous – not mean nervous, but worried nervous – and we just were not speaking the same language. While his ground manners were great, when I got on him once he just panicked and couldn’t listen at all, and I knew I didn’t have the skills to figure out how to get his attention and communicate with him.
Two months ago, on the recommendation of a friend whom I respect a lot, I talked with a trainer nearby. Visited his barn and saw his work. He’s a tough little cowboy with a feather in his oversized hat, rides saddle broncs on weekends (his wife made him give up bulls), but when he came to pick up Pan I loved the way he handled him. Stopped by to see them work and was amazed at Pan’s progress. The trainer explained what he was doing and why, and that – as he suspected from the beginning – Pan just needs a lot of different kinds of work to build his confidence. When I asked how long Pan should stay, the trainer said that two months would be plenty – did not try to dramatize anything.
I’m out of the country now, but I get updates by email and when I get back, the three of us will work together for a few weeks before I take Pan back.
My other horse, a 13-year-old Arabian rescue who also knew absolutely nothing except being led, is being trained by a 16-year-old-girl who continually asks me, “Are you sure Lexie has never done this before?” since the horse takes so well and so quickly to everything the girl wants to teach her. Lexie’s whole attitude appears to be, “It’s about time somebody gave me a damned job!!” and with everything new she looks, thinks, tries it out, and then does it perfectly and never forgets. I have ridden her in the ring, and she listens perfectly to leg and weight, and already has an excellent sense of static: she can tell the difference between what I meant and what was accidental. Her only quirk is that she demanded – and got – a bitless bridle. After five months of very-part-time work, I know I could get on her and ride her from Virginia to Alaska with no drama and no surprises.
When I got my Caspians, I wanted to learn dressage, but needed my stallion broke to ride first. I asked around and found a 4th level rider who was highly recommended. New to the game, I made the arrangements to get him over there, checked out her place, was very impressed.
Waited about 2 weeks before dropping in to see how he was doing. She was just finishing up working him as was putting him away. Except he was being led to a different barn. He was put in the isolation stall of her indoor riding arena. When questioned she said he was trying to dismantle her other barn. Now this is a 4 yo stallion without a mean bone in his body, but he was in a different place so I accepted her explaination.
Every time I visited, she was either just putting him up or had already worked him that day. I never got to see him work. This went on for 4 months. I wanted him displayed at the annual horse fair and I wanted him under saddle.
Now this is a horse that thinks the world revolves around him and that everyone was placed on the planet to love him. At the fair he stayed at the back of the stall and showed no interest in the ativity. She had all kinds of excuses about his attitude. She took him in for the breed demo, in hand, and on the last lap jumped on him bareback.
I took him home at the end of the horse fair. He was rank and pissy and it took me 6 months to get my sweet gentle boy back. He has never been to a trainer since except for a 28 day stay with an Amish trainer to finish him in driving. He came home from there in a happy mood.
I learned a big lesson there and am very, very fussy about who handles my horses now.
@redroanpony – might you be in the upper midwest (MN or round abouts), or know a like-minded person who is? I’m looking for a reliable person who has your skills for my pony mare. I’ve learned what to do once they’re mostly tame and ready to get going, but she and I have made each other nervous and I’d like to work with someone who has experience with horses like her to get those much-needed ground manners. My username is my gmail dot com account if you prefer email.
I see a lot of you guys are saying it’s very hard for a horse to un-learn a bad habit. I just recently rescued a 26yr old TB mare that I knew pretty well about 10 years ago. 10 years ago this was the sweetest mare, exceptional ground manners, and preformed very well in the local/state 4-H hunter/jumper shows. She changed hands 7 years ago and that was the last I saw of her until last week when she showed upon on craigslist as a “Free thoro breed mare kids safe”.
I jumped on the chance to up-grade her, however, these people were killing the old girl with kindness. Anytime the horse didn’t want to do something these people put her away, no matter how pushy she got they NEVER disciplined her. After 7 years of this the result it a pushy, plow-you-over, spoiled brat of a horse. This horse is dangerous now! I’ve been trying to work with her, hoping she will remember her manners, but so far no such luck. She plows me over, trys to rear up in my face, and stomps my feet. Now, she’s not getting away with any of this, I have a pretty firm hand on her and when she gets on top of me I smack her until she backs off. When she does something right, no matter how brief I praise her, but it seems like I am getting no where with her.
Is this something that is going to take a lot of time for her to come around, or is she ruined in the name of love? Any advice on this would be wonderful!! I’m considerably lost on how to break these horrid habits out of her.
fhotd said:
“>>They said they feel they have lost their connection with me. < <
Well, shit, apparently you just needed to stomp on their feet a few times and bite them in the pants pocket. Geez, how could you not have figured that out? "
OMG, what an idiot am I! Why didn't I think of that? I'll be sure to remember that for next time!
Thanks for the laugh–I needed it!
I don’t think my teaching was the best, there were definate down sides but one big upside was that I was taught to walk, trot, canter and jump with no reins and stirrups, first on the lunge then off it. May not sit well with insurance these days but nothing gives you a glue arse and a persuasive seat like jumping a 13hh pony who catleaps and refuses (and drops his shoulder on corners) with no reins or stirrups. Taught me how to keep a horse straight with me leg. (Well I could then, been a while now).
As for training I know exactly how plans can be messed up by the horse, the pony I trained (backed in 2 years before at 3 by a very nice totally clueless guy and then left in a field for 2 years) was…….conformationaly and astheticaly challenged….but very willing and kind natured. After taking 3 months to teach her to go over a pole on the ground without falling over her own feet we got to popping over little (1ft) jumps. I couldn’t really shorten or lengthen her as she didn’t really understand and wasn’t really balanced enough for it (perhaps shouldn’t have been jumping but we both enjoyed it) so it was a toss up whether she would come in right and fly, or come in wrong and scatter the poles everywhere, not that it really bothered her when she did hit them. Took her to a show, got a 8th in a 20 horse kiddies class (and a lot of glares from mothers who thought I was trophy hunting till they saw the performance). Upshot, she was fun to ride and dead safe for trail work but anything else was an uphill struggle because of her conformation and lack of intelligence. However I loved the mare, I knew she was never going to be anything much and she was FUUUUUGLY should probably not have been bred but as she was why not have some fun with a willing partner (she did try).
“Me leg” oops thats not good Eglish perhaps substitute ‘my Leg’
and again English, special day today.
One of the most rewarding experiences of my life has been training my own horse from the ground up, then competing and winning on her.
I had never trained a young horse before, and it was a learning experience! But I do think that if you’re a good, solid rider, confident, and you have a nice youngster with a level head to work with, that training your own horse is very doable.
Although I have never been taught how to train a horse, I did have many years of lessons under my belt from excellent trainers who insisted I do things right. If I hadn’t had that solid foundation of instruction and experience, I would never have succeeded at training my own horse.
As much as I dislike the BNTs in general, I did utilize Clinton Anderson’s colt starting videos, but as with all things horse, you have to take it all with a grain of salt and a heaping tablespoon of common sense! The videos helped me get through the areas of training that were a bit fuzzy or completely unfamiliar to me. But if you’re not already a confident and experienced horseperson, all the BNT videos in the world aren’t going to teach you how to break and train your own horse!
Despite what the parellis tell you, it’s NOT a game and if you treat it like a game you’re playing with your life.
Right On Fugly!!! I completely and totally agree! Thank you!
The Wonder Horse says:
October 14, 2009 at 11:43 am
Their horse bites at pockets. All pockets. Chest, Pants, etc. Horse motioned to bite at me, i motioned to hit horse didn’t move back, so i did a 4 finger slap on the nose, the horse spooked (because hell, had never been told no before) and the owner got really emotional and started crying because i hurt her horse’s feelings. Long story short, i came out to the barn and saw she was paying her guy a visit.. no problem with that. but i noticed she was giggling because her horse was “tickling†her (i.e. rooting for food in her pockets). She didn’t understand how this was no different than biting. In the end, i noticed she wasnt going to change, so i refunded the money left and asked her to remove her horse.
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It must be an epidemic, especially with middle age Warmblood owners. I see this let the darlings do what they want attitude in every barn (mine included). The owners are so star-struck just staring at their horses, it’s impossible for them to ever correct bad behavior.
I boarded at one GP barn where they had a particular nasty young studly gelding that would lurch over his stall guard to chomp on any horse going down the hall. The owner blew it off. Eventually people complained. The diagnoses? Said WB needed more Understanding, attention and Love, which resulted in nearly a involuntary mastectomy. Said horse got sold.
Or one of my favorites. Owner has 18hh Dutch, spoiled shitless. Drags owner everywhere. She tolerates it because he’s showing his free spirit. Horse mows owner down in his stall, tears down the hallway and she’s screaming “don’t touch him, let him go.” Happened many times. Eventually she takes Bulltwinkle home. A year later, after a broken leg, nose and serious back injuries, she gives the horse away saying he has special needs. You bet he does. You created this monster.
al2payne
Well put. I’ll take a trainer that speaks open, honest and realistic any day. Unfortunately, money seems to trump common sense these days. Eventually resulting in ambulance trips.
>>Or one of my favorites. Owner has 18hh Dutch, spoiled shitless. Drags owner everywhere. She tolerates it because he’s showing his free spirit. Horse mows owner down in his stall, tears down the hallway and she’s screaming “don’t touch him, let him go.†Happened many times. Eventually she takes Bulltwinkle home. A year later, after a broken leg, nose and serious back injuries, she gives the horse away saying he has special needs. You bet he does. You created this monster.< <
That story makes my brain hurt. The worst part is, some perfectly competent person is going to get hurt trying to fix that horse after they pull him out of a kill pen because he’s too nice to ship. That lady is the poster child for that blog I wrote about killing with kindness. Too many people don’t realize THEY are sending their horse to the kill pen by their permissiveness. They just don’t get it!
Regarding the 26 year old piggy mare upthread, she will come around. It’ll just take more time. Try to anticipate as best you can. I’ve found that making the “don’t you DARE” sound a second before the misbehavior is way more effective than having to discipline. Just start watching this mare like a hawk and stop her crap before it starts and I’ll bet she remembers the rules soon. And thank you for taking her in at her age!
I got my boy as a nearly 6 y/o not-really-saddle-broke draft cross. As near as we can figure, there must’ve been an accident at some point in the past (maybe he actually spooked at things when he was younger? Not sure.) that ended up with the people who owned before me being a touch afraid to do anything with him.
It was obvious he’d never really been disciplined before (the first few times he got a smack for something was pretty impressive to watch, but then he figured out we were just telling him “no” and he’d just have to deal.). I sent him off to a trainer that I know and respect for all of about three weeks and she had him under saddle in that time and willing to walk, trot, canter, and brake.
Of course, his turns still needed work, he still doesn’t know his leads, and now we’re working on rating his gaits but she put the first few rides on him and he was fine. Really, he’s one of the most good-minded horses with a lot of try that I know. I still can’t figure out why the people who had him before thought he might be difficult to train or didn’t put the time in him (but they did apparently do so with his brother).
Anyway, I at least had a good training experience.
First time poster. Thank you for this thread! As a trainer and horse owner this topic is close to my heart. Along with training I have a full time job, this allows me to pick and choose clients. Not the ones with the most money or best horses, but the ones that understand that 30 days on one horse is not the same as 30 days on another. I ask that the horses have about 30 days under saddle with a competant colt starter, and then I will finesse. One horse was successful at her first show, and by successful I mean she went in the ring and didn’t do anything stupid, a ribbon was not a concern.
I am honest with the owner about what I think the horse is capable of and invite them to come watch as much as they like. You are right when you said that few take advantage of the included weekly lesson. They are missing out on learning the language their horse has learned to speak. I think my training horses speak for themselves. They are shiney and of good weight. They are happy to go to work day after day. And 2 championships this summer was a great achievement. One on my horse (at first level dressage) and one on a clients. I don’t advertise, the clients I seek will find me.
We had a 4 year old Dutch Warmblood sent to our barn for training. He came in as broke to w/t/c… of course what that actually meant was w/t/c on the lunge without a rider. The owner then got angry that he wasn’t jumping courses after a month of training.
Our training barn is small(6-8 horses) and flexible, but even at this size, clients need to understand a few Golden Rules so their horses as well as others get the trainers undivided attention.
#1-Don’t show up, hang on the rail, talking for hours-distracting the trainer. Go see your horse or observe quietly. A distracted trainer can be a dead trainer. Appointments are appreciated so YOU get the most out of your training experience!
#2-Don’t handle, feed, or ride other peoples horses without permission from the owner and trainer. I can’t believe I had to add this!
#3 Don’t interupt lessons. People are paying good money for them and don’t care about your dog.
#4 Pay your bill on time. It may be recreation for you, but it is food on the table for the trainer. If you can’t afford the luxury of having your horse trained, don’t make excuses-move it.
OT but for anyone in NY wanting something to pony off of – anything that has played polo is usually awesome for dragging your silly greenies around. It’s much better to pony than longe yearlings and two year olds, so if you have space for another mouth to feed, this looks like a nice mare!
http://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/grd/1391743537.html
I’m going to say something only tangentially related here.
If I could afford my own horse, I would be training *with* it. But I wouldn’t take on a prospect either. What I need is a good schoolmaster…and I’m mature enough to know it.
I’m going to talk about something else. My trainer has been buying a lot of horses lately because many of the horses she already had were, well. Old. Ancient. Not entirely sound for the work any more, and in need of retirement.
Average length of time between buying a horse and using it in lessons? 1-2 months. And that average counts the two horses she was able to put in class the day she got them…one was a trained schoolmaster, the other was, I swear, BORN to be a schoolie. He’s green broke, but you can put a *total beginner* on him on the trail and he won’t put a foot wrong…then I got on him, and he went straight into a pleasure frame…which in my mind is a good way of going for a schoolie.
They’ve bought horses they’ve had to train for three to six months before even using them in *advanced* classes. It really varies. They bought two horses at the same time. One was supposedly trained, but clearly has issues and hasn’t been used in class yet.
The other was sold them as ‘green broke’. I wouldn’t even have called her that, as it turned out, she didn’t know how to canter under a rider. That was two months ago. She’s now walk, trot, canter and learning to jump…but she’s still not in class because she’s so crooked and, frankly, out of shape (which, of course, takes the very longest to fix).
But think about that for a moment. If it can take six months to train a horse to do walk, trot and canter in an arena, low fences, and the occasional trail ride, WHY do people think they can get a finished reiner in 90 days?
I just got my new guy, Bear, a month ago. He was a hunter jumper lesson horse for little baby beginners learning how to ride. They never did any ground work with him, so now he is a bit pushy, but not horrible considering he is 17 hands. He is also underweight and has no top line muscle. I have had him for one month and he has gained about 150-200lbs of muscle and fat. He is also needing some work undersaddle due to him being a lesson horse. The other day someone asked me why I wasnt showing him yet, I simply told them, “If you were judging my horse in an english pleasure class, how would you place him? He is lazy, under weight, and under muscled. If I were the judge and if all of the other horses in the class were doing all of the correct things and looked health, I would place Bear last in that class. I love my boy to death, but I know better then to show him how he looks now.” The person was speechless. I also had someone tell me that he could never do western because he is 17 hands and a Thoroughbred.
I am taking lessons and I have someone helping me with his groundwork and they might be helping with his undersaddle. But, I dont have the money to send him to a trainer for 3 months. In all honesty, I would rather not. I would rather just take my lessons.
Back in December last year when I bought my new horse Hoss I wrote an article “Magic Wand” and published it on my web site “HorsesDIY.com”. At that time I intended only to ride him on the trail, no showing at all. Since then I have changed my mind about the whole “Magic Wand” theory. Everybody with a horse is looking for the “Magic Wand” that will convert their horse from the misfit they have to the gentle, lazy, good minded, trained horse they wish they had. There is no such thing as a “Magic Wand” to accomplish this. It takes months, even years, to get a horse trained for the show ring and expect it to do anything, especially in performance classes. Good luck to anyone that is looking for the “Magic Wand”.
I have trained many horses for basic dressage(up to 2nd level) or just w-t-c. I have had some real headaches and some absolute gems. The one thing I find with each one of the owners they always push for results. Horses take awhile to train and you cannot push them to learn. On the other hand you have trainers that are so inept they could not train there way out of a paper bag. It is hard to find a good one.
My favorite story about training is about a stallion I used to train, he was a 16.3 hanovarian and was nicknamed jaws(you can guess why). He had gone through 3 trainers before me, the last one tried to ram into me (while I was testing him out for the first time)with his stallion to show me that he was a better rider. This all goes to our boarder blog and the ensuing drama. And then yell at me at the top of his lungs that I was an inferior rider I should stay out of his way that he could train anything, by the way the trainer is 16!!!!!! I should have stayed away but I didn’t. After a year of training I had him going fairly nicely and contemplating his first show. Well the owner sold him to a natural horsemanship trainer that told me all the things I was doing wrong. I left and let her do everything the “right way”he proceeded to buck her off and bite her so bad that he broke the skin and she was bruised for a month. She did not end up buying him and his owner asked me if I would cont. training him. I said no. I guess the moral of the story is stick with what works, and he or she may not look like much, but glitz, glam, and huge reps do not always make a good trainer. Some one who cares and will do what is right may not always cost an arm and a leg. Do the research ask about their training theories. Look at their horses are they 4 year olds schooling one tempi changes(not cool) or safe sound 8 year olds schooling piaffe. Are their horses happy or pissed off warmbloods that would rather kick you than look at you. Does the trainer have a vested interest in you. Does she volunteers to help you? Not everything comes with a pricetag. Good trainers help educate, bad ones just make a name for themselves. You should feel good at your trainers, not weary of how much is this going to cost me!!!
Just a question concerning weight gain from a previous reply (not directly to do with training)- how much weight SHOULD a horse gain safely in a day?
On the training issue, a horse can look like it lost weight at the trainers when it in fact has not. A round ball of clay rolled into a cylinder will have the same mass, but look totally different. I have had people stand by a horse they say is skinny and then have them touch the horse- they soon realize the “ribs” they saw were pectoral muscles and the horse is actually quite well covered.
Education is very important for both trainer and public. There will always be people who close their ears and eyes because their agenda dictates so. The majority does not want to hear the truth. I would prefer to have a small number of intelligent clients and earn less money. To blame bad owners for producing bad trainers does not seem valid. Of course, someone will always be there to take the client’s money. Fast food joints and gambling outfits are there to make a profit. They make a choice just like the consumers do.
I am all too familiar with this whole scenario. I grew up with a professional trainer in the household. My Dad started training horses for pay in the ’60s and began to train show horses in the ’70s. So many people would bring these 2 year olds that had been turned out since they were weaned without so much as a single human touch, then expect them to be winning in reining or WP in 30 days. He would get them broke and they would do well in the Junior classes. They may not win them all, but they took their fair share of first place points. The reining horses would spin (not fast, but consistent), pick up leads consistently and do decent sliding stops. The WP horses would travel around on droopy reins and be in complete control with good collection. IMHO, those that had 30 days under my Dad were better WP horses than what wins the world championships now. At least his were still useful as horses, they traveled level with good cadence and though they were not the slowest horses in the class, they were controlled and still maintained a natural horse movement. I remember some of the horses that we had show up at our house with high expectations after 30 days. Scotch Judge was a beautiful liver chesnut stallion who came off the trailer walking on his hind feet and pawing at anything within reach, 2 handlers on 20 foot lead ropes to each side. He ended up making one hell of a super nice heading horse. Dandy Big Step (son of Impressive Dandy) showed up with ugly white scars across his forehead and poll were the last “trainer” had wrapped wire around his head and connected it under his throatlatch with cables to a set of hock hobbles. He was determined to make a pleasure horse out of him so he would ride him in that getup and every step he would take would yank his head down between his knees. By the time we got him, he was physically unable to lift his head above his withers. With some serious vacation time and intensive work, he made a decent reining/roping horse. So many people want the quick fix and completely discount what a few thousand miles of circles can do for a young horse.
I’ve got a friend, Jamie, who owns two really nicely bred QH mares. They’re out of Dash for Cash and Easy Jet. These two mares of now 7 years old. They have NEVER seen a bit, only a hackamore. Well, the hackamore was fine up until Jamie found this new thingy called a noavel. It’s kind of like a bosal, but made out of some sort of metal that puts pressure over the nose. Some guy who came to the horseshoeing school he was studying at created the contraption and swears it’s the best thing since sliced bread. Thanks to this guy, Jamie only rides in a noavel now and I feel so horribly for his horses. They always have skinned up noses from this torture device as I call it.
Jamie has used this “tool” to “break” his two 3 year old fillies. Since they submitted under this noavel and “behaved” he thinks that they are finished and ready for all his buddies to come out and ride. The two mares I mentioned above, well he swears that they will “sit and spin” like a reining horse and this was “taught” by using the noavel. Now he thinks they are barrel racers since they can turn on a dime.
It just amazes me in a negative way that people think that by using something like the noavel that their horse is now “trained.” I by no means am a horse trainer, nor am I a great rider. I am, unlike many, aware of those two facts which means I need to constantly be learning. To me if the training process isn’t teaching both you and the horse, you’re not really training. Jamie is always bugging me to just use a noavel on my Arabian and get it over with. I can’t get it through his brainwashed head that I don’t want a quick-fix, I need a learning process that will work with both my horse and myself.
al2Payne made a good point in that one should learn from people who know more than you; unfortunately, identifying those with real knowledge as opposed to the S**T that passes for knowledge in horsedom, is more difficult than one might think.
I grew up with the cowboy-tradition type horse knowledge; I’ve had to discard most of this learning when I came back to horses in my 40′s. Most of what I had learned from my early authorities was that the best response to a horse was force and even more force if the behavior was really bad. (Horses being clubbed over the head with baseball bats was not an everyday occurrence, but it did happen.) Of course, I knew behavior like clubbing was abuse, but the everyday-smack-whip-spur was just how you handled a horse.
Now at near-60 years old, with a lot more education and a better understanding of behavior modification, I realize that nearly everything i knew was wrong. Really wrong. Unfortunately, most of the horse experts I meet — especially trainers — have not crossed that chasm. They rarely have respect for the animal and don’t consider that the animal can be their teacher, as well as their student.
Alexandra Kurland says: Go to people with questions, go to horses for answers. I think when we are both students and teachers of our horses, both human and horse prosper.
I sent my horse to a trainer, very well recommended. He put a twisted wire snaffle in his mouth and cranked on it whenever my horse made a mistake. This was a life-changing experience. I learned how to use a bosal and I learned behavioral theory and methods.
I am still looking for a trainer because I’m a lousy rider. I found this ad in my search. I will leave it up to the reader to guess where I found the ad. Craigslist? or Engrish Funny?
****
Hybrid horsemanship is todays way of training horses. Where other methods are too soft and dont expect horse to have manners and they dont in trouble. And where the method of the old west are way toooo harsh and cruel at times. Hybrid horsemanship is where the horse can get in trouble but without cruleness.
If you want your horse to have a frim but kind way about their time at the trainers. Then give ma a call.
STALLIONS, MUSTANGS, WEANLINGS, and YEARLINGS always excepted!
Oh boy here I go … I have been wanting to share some of the bad training methods of miniature horses for a long time.I have miniature horses, and see a lot of training being rushed.One classic example is in the driving classes. Horses are hooked up to a cart and presented in the show ring , and they dont even know how to ground drive. I wouldnt believe it unless I whitnessed it , and I did. I hear people bragging that they can train a miniature horse to drive in 30 days. Not only is this dangerious , but its unfair for the horse IMO. I had more then a few people at the last show ask me why I wasnt jumping my 2 year old mare in the hunter jumper class….( shaking my head) These little horses seem to have a lot of stiffle problems, with the rushed training , jumping, and the little circles (people think little horses = little circle in lunging) I have to wonder if most of the stiffel issues are owner created. I am not down on Miniature horse people , not all of them are careless, just a lot of them. Its easy to intimidate miniature horses, they are small , and they cant hurt you ( usually) a lot of the training is just “Bullying ” them into submission, yanking on chains,pushing them around, yelling and screaming… you can actually see the poor little horses confidence crumble when the owner screams at it …its horrible to see.
You go to the shows and some of them are dead in the eye because of this training. Many miniature horses are just shoved into a trailer instead of trained to walk into one . thats another thing I hate …Take the time to train it , dont just pick it up and throw it in the trailer , or wrestle it to the ground to trim its feet because you can . Give the little horses the same respect that a big horse gets because of its size. Please note that not all miniature horse owners are like this , I am only speaking of the bad and lazy ones.
zirrocco said:
Now at near-60 years old, with a lot more education and a better understanding of behavior modification, I realize that nearly everything i knew was wrong. Really wrong. Unfortunately, most of the horse experts I meet — especially trainers — have not crossed that chasm. They rarely have respect for the animal and don’t consider that the animal can be their teacher, as well as their student.
~~~
Bravo, I really loved this comment. There are far too many “experienced” horse trainers/owners/people who have little respect for the horse. My favorites are female trainers who think hard hands and a few punches or other painful choices are the way to train a horse. I’m a fan of good horsemanship (not necessarily “natural” horsemanship) and that always takes into account the relationship with the horse. It includes teaching a horse to respect people. It’s sure nice, though, when that respect is two-way.
Good post. I especially agree that different horses take different amounts of time to be trained. I see so many people that don’t respect this fact and their horses pay for it (and sometimes the owners too, when they have to send their horse off for retraining, or decide that they don’t have that NH connection with their horse- perhaps because they were too lazy to spend simple quality time with the thing).
Years ago I bought a 5yo OTTB gelding. Probably not the best choice as it was my first horse but I thought I was advanced enough in my skills to take on a green horse and thought he would be a fun project. Well, those pretty butterfly thoughts floating around in my head at the time were interrupted by the startling fact that he was going to need a LOT of time for bonding and probably retraining. I didn’t have money for a trainer and decided anyway that he was ultimately MY project horse, and I would do everything I could to make sure he was properly trained. First, I put my saddle away, let him go in the huge pastures to grow some and mature a little and spent all those many months simply bonding with him. When we understood each other to a certain point, I figured it was a good time to put him back u/s. I started from the ground and took my time with him. I changed our routine so he wouldn’t get bored of just lunging. I didn’t overwork him. I gave him obstacles to figure out. I hand-walked him on trails in attempt to help de-spook him. I continually improved his ground manners each time I worked with him. I rode bareback for a while in a halter and lead rope so that I could just focus on using leg and seat aids properly. I made sure to keep his mouth soft and his legs clean. I had advanced riders help me when I wanted to make sure that something new was introduced properly. After 2.5 years of owning him, sure, he only knew w/t/c (canter from a walk, trot to stop, etc), how to carry himself in a frame and how to jump a line of 2 2’6″ verticals (all in a snaffle), but he was solid in all his training. He’d stand quietly in cross-ties all day. He’d go wherever I asked. He was respectful and not pushy. And he was happy. He was sold earlier this year and is very successfully competing in hunters already and is schooling 3ft courses with ease and without injury.
So even though I took my time with him and people looked down on me for how slow I was with him, I know I did a good job with that boy. People largely seem to underestimate that power of bonding, respect and patience, and overestimate what it takes to train a horse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ5ogdpeMmg&feature=related
now tell me thats not a happy horse. Wow, now i understand the one post about angry dressage horses… i guess its not just anky
I train horses – I actually have a story about a bad client.
He was a family acquaintance and he asked if I could break his horse in for him – I only break in horses for trail riding and that’s all he wanted, I decided not to do it though, because I currently had all my yards full until after my rescue was sold.
He dropped his horse off anyway while I was away – I didn’t see the man or know the horse’s name. My bf called me (I was working with one of my mares at the time) and said that there was a horse that had just been dropped off and that I should come down. I went down to see the horse and found a malnourished, wormy horse that was clearly not up to date on hoof trims. The owner had told my bf he would get the farrier out (which he never did btw, I was responsible for organising all this horses hoof trims and worming – the owner never paid for it or thought to buy any of it for his horse). I refused to work with him until he had his hooves trimmed because they were cracked and were beginning to resemble pancakes. He also had hair missing on his face from where he had been bumped around and a lump on his chest. His owner told my bf ‘Yeah, that’s been there a while’. I just thought – WTF?! Have you even had it checked?!
Anyway, I got him to a decent weight (still a little too skinny though), got his hooves trimmed had him wormed and he was groomed and had his hooves picked and painted every night. In 7 weeks I had him broken in – he was an angel under saddle, although a bit last to be truthful. He responded to voice commands and did what you asked of him. He wasn’t going to be showing any time soon, but his owner didn’t want a show horse anyway. So I asked his owner to come out and watch me ride him and then he could ride him (he hadn’t been out even once to see how his horse was going and it’s not even a 5 minute drive away). He said he would, but he never showed. We took the horse back to his place with a video of me riding him and a summary of his strong points and things he could still use a little work on. I was the only one that had ridden him while he was out here – my mum did try to once, but he didn’t like that and bucked her off, which I assumed was because of a small cut on his gum from some grass seeds (I have no idea how they even got into his gum, but they are all healed now). His owner couldn’t make him do anything, he would not turn, would not walk forward and would not back. I don’t know why – I have never understood why he was so good for me but not for him, I personally think it has something to do with him trusting me or being used to me.
Rather than persisting with his horse or talking to me about a possible solution, the owner demanded that he be shot. We got the horse back (which I am so glad for, because he is now mine. He is a decent weight, has his hooves done regularly and is wormed regularly. He gets needles yearly and is getting booked in for his first teeth floating.), but he had a big welt on his side, had not been fed for the 16 hours prior to me getting him back and was very flighty. He pinned his ears every time someone went near him. He will not let anyone else ride him (I’ve never had that problem before while training a horse) and is VERY skittish around most men (although he is fairly comfortable with my boyfriend and his best mate). I can only guess what his old owner put him through and am so mad at myself for letting him go back to that at all. I ride this horse almost every day and he has given me barely any problems under saddle *knock wood*. This owner is one of the people who wants results and wouldn’t care if you beat his horse to get it.