Killing them with kindness is still killing them
Sep 05 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYV01QS3j6M
Another day, another idiot untraining their horse and creating a monster. (Yeah…you guessed right…Parelli person)
We see this stuff all the time and we all shake our heads but I want to go into why it’s such a problem today. Sure, it’s highly likely that girl is going to be kicked in the head, but there’s a much bigger reason that this kind of play-slash-permissiveness is a problem.
It kills horses.
No, I’m not being melodramatic here. If we could rewind and watch the last three months of life of every young horse who goes to slaughter in this country, I’ll bet we’d see permissive handling well over 75% of the time. A lot of it stems from the family who wants to have a foal so that the kids can see the miracle of birth and because foals are so kyoot. They are shocked and stunned to learn that itsy bitsy baby foals can be darn challenging to handle. They strike, they nip, they don’t want their halter on.
Many first time foal owners are baffled about what to do. They are thinking of it like a human baby, and can’t imagine disciplining it. WRONG. If it’s a week old and it bites you, smack it and growl at it! (I will lightly pop a horse in the nose for nipping…it’s never hard and is accompanied by far more growl and intimidation than force…but I don’t think you make a horse head shy by rapping the offending body part with your knuckles, either.) Your foal isn’t going to get easier to handle when it gets bigger, and it will be highly confused if you permit all sorts of bad behavior ’til it reaches a certain size and then attempt to crack down. They learn really well those first few months – what are you teaching them?
I literally cannot tell you how many ill-mannered yearlings, two year olds and three year olds I see at auctions. They are as common as mosquitoes at a lake. They barely lead. They barge into people. I have seen them strike and bite at their handlers in the auction pen. Almost 100% of them go to kill. It is a disgusting waste of life, an atrocity, and some human somewhere was entirely to blame for it.
Then there are the older horses like the one in the video. One day they push the envelope – and their owner giggles. So they push it a little further. Yep, owner still thinks it’s funny. The behavior, whatever it is, escalates. Now the owner starts to get a little scared. Trigger’s rearing was kind of cute, but now he’s doing it all the time. She starts to avoid situations that might make Trigger rear. No more riding outside the arena. No more trying to ride away from the other horses. Trigger doesn’t want to go in the wash rack anymore? Well, okay. She backs down from Trigger and lets him move her around like a cow at a team penning, showing Trigger just who is in charge of the herd. (You can see that in the video. NEVER back off a horse like that. You barge AT them preferably with a whip and growling like something from a straight-to-video horror movie when they threaten you like that.) The end result? Same as above. Trigger gets too scary or someone gets hurt and off to the auction he goes. It happens constantly, to horses who were fabulous horses in more competent hands in their past.
A friend of mine rescued a pony last year. The pony is a lovely POA mare, a wonderful mover who is easy as pie to ride. How did she wind up in a kill pen selling for $125? Easy. She ran people over on the ground and when I say ran over, I mean ran over. Oh, and if she decided she wanted to bite another horse and you were in the way, tough. You got chomped. It took a lot to get that pony to back off and not respond to stress by mowing down the nearest human. It was not a pretty process. But six months later, she is almost totally fixed and I won a couple classes at the SAFE show with her. She will always need an owner who can say no to her and mean it, but her future is bright again thanks to people who were willing to dish out a little tough love. And the pony loves us and snuggles with us – the people who clocked her with the grain bucket on numerous occasions. Really, they won’t hate you for disciplining them as long as you’re fair and consistent and focus on sending the message the behavior is wrong, not getting revenge or causing pain.
So, can you be kind to your horse and not wind up being used as a doormat? YES. Here’s how: You catch disrespect before it ever gets to the point shown in that video. Disrespect is refusing to pick up a hoof. Disrespect is yawning and ignoring you when you poke him and ask him to move over. Disrespect is whinnying to other horses and dragging you around when you’re handling or riding him. Disrespect is raising his head and making it hard for you to halter or bridle him. Disrespect is pinning his ears at you. Don’t allow any of it. If a horse makes an ugly face at me, I growl at him and may raise my hand just to say, hey, that nose better not come over here if you know what’s good for you. Works great. If I let the ugly faces continue ’til he chomped me, well, then we’d have to have a big, dumb, avoidable fight. Nip it in the bud, and most horses will never go further.
(Of course, and it should go without saying, always look for physical pain if a horse is crabby or aggressive. However, you always discipline EVEN IF the aggression is in response to pain. It’s still not allowed.)
You’d be amazed at how many bad behaviors you will never see in your horse if you merely demand simple respect, every single day, every single ride. You’re not being kind if you never discipline. You’re being a spineless conflict-avoiding twit who is laying down a red carpet to the slaughter truck for your horse. For some horses, a growl is all you’ll ever need, but there are others who need firmer discipline. (I’m told the “carrot stick” is quite effective for providing a good hard smack to a horse who is disrespecting your personal space. See, it IS good for something!)
Final point: Your horse will still love you if you discipline him. So will your kids, so practice on both – the world will thank you!
129 comments to “Killing them with kindness is still killing them”
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Just because someone has a carrot stick in their hand doesn’t mean they do Parelli.. or that they do it the right way.
And of course the long apologia posted with the video essentially says, I’m right and if you don’t agree with me you don’t know jack.
She fails to understand that respect is not a one-way street. Sure, respect the horse’s horseness — but the horse has to respect YOU as well. No horse I have ever owned has acted like that more than once, because I am the alpha mare here (:D), and they all know it.
As Sheila Varian was wont to say in her clinics, there are three rules: Don’t bump me, don’t push me, and let me go through anything first.
PS: My eyes hurt. What happened to the font size in the latest post?
My favorite quote from the “informative” sidebar of that video:
“In fact, the act of her rearing and showing me her belly is practically an act of trust: a horse’s belly is its most vulnerable, sensitive, and vital part.”
Geez, you’re not slaying a dragon here. Neither is this a dog rolling onto its back. The horse is showing you her tender vulnerable underbelly, and you’re ignoring the sharp flying pointy feet in front of it. How adorable.
Whoa – guess the new blog is still having growing pains – text size ?
:). Had to put on my 3x readers to read it but I persevered………..
Husband learned this lesson big time when my Sierra stepped on his foot because he would never correct her when she got into his space – yup, broken toes…………..he’s all better and he has LEARNED HIS LESSON. He corrects BEFORE it gets to be a problem.
If only everybody would act like a mama horse – they don’t put up with it from their youngsters, why should the human?
That is a disaster waiting to happen.
When I raised my first foal (many moons ago), he tried those cute baby horsey things—the toothless nip, the rearing up, the pushing me out of the way. Being a stud colt that I planned to use for breeding, I pinched his tongue and put a stop to the biting pretty quickly; the rearing was a bit harder but he didn’t enjoy having his legs kicked out from underneath him very much. Took care of both problems in a day. The pushing against me came a bit later and that was fixed by pushing back with a nail held in my hand and a not-so-tender little poke. Don’t know if that was the “acceptable” way to fix it, but it did. He never could figure out where the sharp thing came from… He grew into a most respectful stallion, though he did go through a bit of a monkey period as a yearling.
Tillie isn’t treating her human like a horsey friend. Tillie is dangerous and disrespectful, and a liability. Horses can be our friends but humans are not small horses to be pushed around. Had that been any of my equine partners, I’d have put a stop to that behavior immediately—that horse would have been put back on the line and play time would have been OVER.
I love that the owner is defending the behavior, too. Bet it’s taken down soon as there’s been a run of negative comments posted in the last day or so. Hard to believe that horse is an off-track TB. Aren’t they taught a bit more respect? There’s high spirits and there’s idiocy.
Don’t know if this is a formatting error, but the type on this post is absolutely miniscule. I have to go find my glasses before I even try to read it.
I call BULLSHIT on the video author. Why? This is HER DIRECT QUOTE from one of her videos posted a week ago.
“Well my plans were to train her for a year or two then sell her or lease her out.
It really depends on how well she finishes off, and what direction she goes. I still don’t know what she’s going to be lol, I was hoping she’d be good as a hunter jumper.
But she might finish off as a totally incredible horsey lol, and then I’ll probably keep her, maybe lease her out a few times if my work life takes control :s”
What a lying little viper. Poor horse, looks like it hates her very much so.
I DO hope the video author cares to share on here. We haven’t had enough Fugly-train-wreck-owners come commenting lately.
Her youtube video has a notes section – and I quote – “Trust me. I am an advanced rider, and I have NEVER felt even the subtlest movement of her even thinking of lifting her front end when under saddle. And believe me, I’ve given her endless reasons to; but that’s NOT who she is.”
I am not an advanced rider, but I’d know better than to… explain it like that, LOL.
So true with the foals. For example, week-old babies will kick out at a human, sometimes in play, sometimes not. They don’t know better because they haven’t been taught.
A friend of mine does what the dam would do – if a foal kicks at her, she hauls off and kicks back, right in the ass. Not hard enough to injure, but hard enough to make the point. Baby usually scampers around to the other side of Mom and peeks around wide-eyed: “WTF happened?” When they are that young, there are no predetermined mindsets to deal with. They are very teachable and she says she’s never had to do this more than 3 times.
As for getting Junior to wear a halter, most people I know think the best solution is to halter right at birth. Of course, these are knowledgeable horsepeople who supervise their animals closely and know that baby will GROW and need that halter adjusted and replaced, not backyard breeders. I’ve seen pics of foals with halters grown into their heads, and it’s not pretty.
I know I’m veering off-topic, but those ad links in the body of the posts can have some amusing results:
http://s383.photobucket.com/albums/oo277/Saelnifard/?action=view¤t=link.jpg
Great blog and all, just not the one I’d choose if I was going to search for that …
Longtime reader first time poster…completely disgusting and negligible behavior. You’re right, entirely preventable.
I seriously cannot fathom why people choose to follow Parreli, I’m sure some find it effective. But if I’m not mistaken I’ve heard you cannot take a day off or do something other than stick to the script. Which would drive me bonkers if I had to do that. I don’t see anything wrong with taking a bit of John Lyons, a bit of Clinton Anderson, etc. and apply them to the given situation. The two trainers I mentioned are two that I’ll dabble in if I need any help.
I started my first youngster and in the beginning she was like a big dog (Yeah give me a “Your an Idiot” sign) until she started to treat me like one of the herd, playing wise. Of course a swat and a “growl” was applied and she learned quick that I wasn’t her play buddy, that I wasn’t there to be her FRIEND, I was there to be a higher pecking order PARTNER. She’s come around pretty well, but there I things that I’ve had to fix that I did when she was younger and didn’t know any better. She’s 3 1/2 years old now and I’m very happy she hasn’t turned out like this “Lilly.”
While the owner stays positive, you can’t tenderfoot around horses, you can’t be afraid to discipline (like you said) I’ve kicked a horse in the gut with the top of my foot for being defiant. I got so many “OMG” looks I was like “WTF, you want me to let her get away with that??” I mean seriously, a swat in the gut, a firm “poke” to the nose never killed a horse. Never made them cower in fear that each time you raise your foot you’re going to kick them in the gut or the chest. Or raise your hand and expect to be smacked. It was clear that she wasn’t being completely and utterly nasty to the owner by means of her ears (when rearing) I still wouldn’t have hesitated to use that carrot-stick as my line of defense and put that mare in its place.
Sometimes I wonder what people are thinking… They treat horses like they’re bunnies/dogs, afraid that if you hit them you’ll hurt them. Give me a break, the bite each other, they kick each other whilst playing. Like a pansie swat to the shoulder will prove affective.
Great post today!
As a trainer and riding instructor, I get these people and their horses all the time. Usually it’s a new-to-horse family who wants a horse to love and for the family. They first check with the better known farms and quickly discover that the horse they really want is out of their budget, so they end up buying a horse cheap out of someone’s pasture,Craigslist, or from the auction. Then, they hook up with PP and fall into that carrot stick trap and PP mind set. Give them a year or two of that nonsense and then they are faced with a spoilded 1200 pound horse that never was really broke right in the first place and now they are afraid of it. Because it’s soooo pretty, or because they love it soooo much, they bring it to me for training or lessons, and then the fun begins. If I see one more person who “wags the lead rope in their horse’s face” ( a PP training method ) I think I will scream! Meanwhile, their horse is pushing on them, walking over them, spinning around. But, there the owner is standing ( ‘er is getting pulled around ) while they are holding up one of their fingers in the horse’s face saying “Focus on me. Focus on me. Focus on me.” ( another PP method ) Can you re-train the owners? That is often more difficult that re-training the horses!
Wow. Just wow. *shaking head in disgust*
Now that I’ve watched the video… My horse did something similar the first week we had her home. Seven double-barreled me in the round pen, with no advance warning that I could see, the second time I free lunged her. My abdomen was one big purple bruise for a while there, if she’d gotten me on the side I bet she would have broken a rib or two, which as a 12 yo new horse owner would have been my first *and last* month with horses, I’m sure. The Clinton Anderson videos I had had no trouble shooting solution to “come up for petting, then kick you” (to be fair, I dragged her to a Monty Roberts clinic and he didn’t want to deal with her either LOL), so a few days later we found a track brat who gave her what-for and she’s been a complete angel in the round pen ever since.
We follow when a leader says yes, because we have learned from experience that a real leader doesn’t say yes or no capriciously. That is the relationship you are trying to build; a relationship based on the horse trusting when you say yes or no it is for an intelligent reason, and your requests are usually the right decision. You do that with horses by setting up examples where yes is the right answer and no is the hard way, and demonstrating how you will say yes and no, then when you are in a situation that needs leadership, your horse will trust that you have made the right decision, and you will trust that the horse knows what you are asking him or her to do. In that video, the horse doesn’t trust her to lead, so he is leading himself, and she can’t trust him to follow, but she isn’t showing that she needs to be the one in charge, so she is following based on what she trusts (from past experience) he will do. If the horse is the leader, he won’t decide to do anything that sounds like work, like riding, leading, lunging… If you could get a paid vacation everyday just by telling your boss to fuck off, you wouldn’t be working!
I often LOL at the kids in my mom’s classes who think my dogs are SO BIG, but maybe we need more social respect for the size and strength of big animals? Seven (there’s one troublemaker in every herd
) took apart one of the stalls yesterday out of frustration of being inside waiting for the dentist to get done. The stall wall is made of heavy boards slid into grooves, then nailed in place, but she had no problem just grabbing the boards and flinging them into the aisle, even coming out of sedation.
OK, first of all – GAH! I’m too OLD to try reading 9 point font!!
Secondly, it’s folks like this gal that keep me in business helping horses like this one learn how to be happy again. This horse isn’t happy. It doesn’t feel good inside at all. It’s not about disrespecting the human – horses do this kind of stuff to each other all the time, and it’s not considered disrespect when that happens. It’s that the horse is unhappy and miserable and trying to get this human, the source of its unhappiness, to leave it alone! The horse doesn’t need to be smacked at all, but that girl sure does! I know I’d have no trouble getting that horse to settle down a be a good citizen, and I’d most likely never have to smack it with anything other than a better idea. But getting through to a silly girl who wouldn’t know an anxious, upset and unhappy horse until it bites her face off might be tougher.
Fugly Blog has smileys?
XD 
;p :p ;D >:) 
:S
/testing, testing
So these are smilies, good to know.
: D
: )
; )
8 )
That video is mind boggling. Wow.
Funny how she says, “She is not a rearing horse.” Hello? She’s rearing. A lot.
WOW!!! That horse looks really ticked off just at seeing her. Mine would have their ears forward and I would be hearing some whinnying. I had one that been abused somewhere before I had gotten her, she was beyond headshy and would turn her butt to you to keep you away from her head. You’d have the halter out getting it ready to put it on and before you could get it straightened out she’d shove her nose in and move her head away from you and don’t even think about trying to touch her face, so I’d say it was a little more extreme then just a little headshy. I don’t know if she would get scared or what but she would rear up at you she would never strike out like the horse in the video but she would rear up at you. The first time she did it to me I yanked her right down and kicked her in her belly area and had a little angry chat with her finger pointed at her. She only did it 2 more times over the next couple of years and same thing happened to her, she’s not afraid of me or anyone but nor does she rear up either. It took a little while for her to get over the head thing and one of her favorite places to be scratched is her face, well and her butt and just about anywhere lol. I don’t normally discipline so brutally but if they are doing something really dangerous like that, then I know I need to crack down hard and immediately. It has been 8 years since the last time she did it. As for biting/nipping my grandma use to smack them on their mouth also and not one of them grew up headshy or scared of people, they’d usually jerked their head a little when you bopped them and had their head right back trying to get some more attention or another nip and yes of course they’d get another bop.
Amen. According to some, I might be too hard on my horse, but you know what, he’s happy, friendly, respectful, leads nicely, and doesn’t do anything that will get you hurt. He’s had 2 beatings in his four years, once for thinking about kicking at me, and once for nipping at me because he was annoyed at another horse. Both times I instantly went after him yelling and swinging whatever I had in my hand at the time, and both times he was pretty sure I was going to remove his head from his body. And he’s never done it again. It’s not hard, really!
FYI, that girl might have been holding a carrot stick, but she wasn’t doing natural horsemanship. *sigh*. Not even Parelli suggests you let your horse pin it’s ears and, ahem, “play” with you (by which I mean kick you, bite you, run you over, etc. Not my kind of play…) Another victim of the equine pop-culture craze.
I was thinking exactly along these lines when my two month old colt sidled up to me and tried to find out what I tasted like, today.
NO way did he think I was food.
NO way was he “playing”.
He was going to BITE me, pure and simple, all babies, all over the worlds, irrespective of race, colour, creed or species, try this at one time or another.
Up till now I have just pushed his nose away.
Today I allowed him to have his go and then I bopped him very firmly and said “No!”.
He went off and sulked in the corner, then came back and tried again.
He was bopped again and that time he got the message.
He’s going to try again, as a yearling, and probably, possibly, as a two year old.
He’ll get bopped again!
Never even think twice about it, now.
I can honestly say I have only ever, once, in my entire life, had a horse dislike me, and that had nothing to do with me bopping him, he just did not like me, end of story.
I sold him to someone he did like.
Problem solved!
I am NOT an advocate of hitting horses, especially with anything, not as a rule.
But if there is no option, you do have to defend yourself and, you know what?
You do actually have a right to defend yourself.
OMG- Thank you! I HATE seeing people giggle and pat a horse when they are misbehaving. There is a lady at my boarding stable that has a massive TWH gelding (looks like he has some draft in him) and he nips constantly. She just points her finger at him and says “Oh bad boy Gordy, that’s a no no!” Are you kidding me? A no no? My two and a half year old daughter would even think that lady is a push over- let alone a 7 year old gelding! When he tried his tricks on me? I poked him in the corner of his mouth with my first two fingers- hard. I had to do it several times, but he keeps his face away from me now.
That girl in the video is now moderating comments. This is what I posted but I doubt it will go through:
Ha! That horse is training you, not the other way around. She is getting YOU to move YOUR feet which means she has taken the dominant role in the relationship. Sometimes you can go too far in allowing for behavior because of past trauma. If that horse loves and trusts you as much as you say, then making her respond to you and do what you say wouldn’t be traumatizing to her but rather re-assuring. Traumatized horses often don’t want to be in the alpha role, but are more secure having a strong leader to guide them. That strong leader should be YOU!
I agree whole-heartedly. Yes, poor behavior can be pain related, but mostly is a result of poor handling- or LACK of handling. My recent rescue was slaughter-bound with a yearling filly still nursing, was barely halter broke, emaciated and had a staph infection. She was rehabbed and started by another trainer but mostly handled and ridden by kids. She’s got a good enough nature that she was never really rude or dangerous, but never learned good manners. She invades space and started flipping her head under saddle, leading to an occasional rear. I typically handle horses quietly and kindly, until these beahaviors pop up. It doesn’t take much to get this mare to fall in line, but it has to happen! I believe the kids backed off or ignored these behaviors, which basically told her it was ok. I find hollering at her is about as effective as anything, my neighbors think I’m a lunatic but who cares, it’s more important she learn what is acceptable and what isn’t. Anyway, they tend to figure out it’s easier to do it the right way, but someone has to stand up and tell them what that is, hopefully before the behavior gets to the dangerous level.
Pardon my language, but holy shit. If one of my horses ever pulled that stunt on me, they’d likely be wearing that whip. (Not that I’m suggesting beating the horse half to death, but I’d definitely be doing some disciplining… and I might even think about snapping the girl one for allowing that behavior.) And yes, a greeting like that would gain them a pop in the nose, too. Hope the person running the camera has 911 on speed dial.
Sure, girl—pat your mare again and give her a treat for striking at you and acting like she wants to eat you alive on sight. That’ll teach her! Honey, very soon you‘ll be hurt or worse, and your horse’ll be dead. Get after her before it’s too late.
*sigh*
I still say folks wanting to own a horse should have to pass a course. If one thousand plus pounds of attitude (brought about by owner stupidity) isn’t similar to a loaded gun, I don’t know what is.
We got a mare who had been allowed to bully on a lease. The gal that owned her, said she was fine for a youth rider, my youngest son needed a new show prospect so we took her on a trial lease. When we went to look at the mare she was pushy on the ground, with the owner, but the owner was an “oh now stop, no no, stop, you know better, stop now” type. UGH. She rode fine though, and little humpy at the canter, but she had been in all day, so we decided to lease for 3 months and try her. She had WP movement to die for and a couple of points. We get her home, and holy crap, what a BEOTCH! She would run backwards at you kicking when you tried to catch her, (sorry, that doesn’t work here), she would run through you to get to the stall for grain, (sorry, that doesn’t work here), she would step on you while grooming, (sorry, again, that does NOT work HERE). Then, she would buck and rear when asked to canter…..OH NO…..sorry, that NEVER works here! This gal wanted $1800 for this mare. No way, no how, not gonna get that. I explained to her what we had seen – and she said, “Oh, see when she acts like that with me, I just put her back out and try again the next day.” WTF!!! This is a smart opinionated mare….it took her all of 3 seconds to figure that game out. So when it didn’t work with us….she upped the ante. I flat out told her, your mare is a problem, and you will never get that amount for her, we already know we aren’t interested for that amount. She panicked then, she was afraid of this mare and didn’t want her back. She dropped the price to $500. At that time, horse prices were good and this is a well bred mare, with WP points. So, we decided to take her for that and see what we could do with her. It took a year – no lie – a year for that mare to finally determine that we were in charge. And when you say it wasn’t pretty – that’s the truth, retraining that nightmare was NOT pretty. That was 10 years ago, and the mare is now packing a teenage 4Her around. She still has her moments, but a loud, “ACK – Think Mare” growl will normally bring her to attention. We have talked about selling this mare since my son is no longer riding and she really doesn’t have a regular rider(the 4Her is our neighbor who’s leasing for the season)….but like the POA you talk about, it would take the right owner. She’s with the program now, so she stays, and will probably be a lifer. But honestly, I don’t know that I would take another one on like her….it was not fun for a long time.
Ok, The girl is a moron to think this horse is just playing with her, However i am sooo sick of you always blaiming NH or Paralli for creating this morons.
If u use NH or Paralli correctly in the correct situations it can save u from getting a hoof in the face or a horse bolt away from u on the ground.
I have to turn out several 3 year olds at a barn i work at who lead like crap and have no respect for space. I can’t put training on them they are not mine but i can maneuver them with NH tactics when they decide to plant hoovys in the ground and stop or try to run me over with thier shoulder or try to bolt. It is these tactics that keep me from getting hurt and get the horse from stall to paddock.
These are just morons who use these training techniques all wrong or skip huge concepts of it or use it at the wrong times. It is not becuase it is parelli or NH it is becuase they are just morons who don’t want to take the time to actually learn how to properly do anything.
NH doesn’t kill horses, stupid people who can’t train put those horses in the kill pen.
Excellent post! My feelings exactly. I really am so tired of seeing horses misbehave because the owners don’t have the brains or balls to discipline.
>>As for getting Junior to wear a halter, most people I know think the best solution is to halter right at birth. Of course, these are knowledgeable horsepeople who supervise their animals closely and know that baby will GROW and need that halter adjusted and replaced, not backyard breeders. I’ve seen pics of foals with halters grown into their heads, and it’s not pretty.< <
Agree with you all the way around. I have no issue with a breakaway or leather foal halter going on them very young although personally I would just put it on and remove it for periods each day when I’m around to watch. (I think all nylon or rope foal halters should not even be made. Too many idiots who will turn out in them.) I have also seen the grown-in halters and it’s disgusting, and scars them for life.
Arrow – sounds like you know when you need to make a point. And that’s the thing. You don’t need to hit when a growl or body language will do the job. You just have to know your horse. 99% of equine discipline is intimidation value…I mean, c’mon, any one of them could kill us if it were a matter of who is stronger and more able to inflict pain. That is why it is so scary to see that pecking order reversed, like it is in the video. Boy, does that mare have that girl trained!
And the font size is the same as other posts on my computer so…help? I didn’t change anything so if anybody who’s super wordpress literate knows why we have a problem, fill me in.
I too had to maximize my screen to see everything and then get my reading glasses AND a magnifying glass. Seriously, I don’t even like to read the classifieds ;o) And the reply I’m leaving is pretty tiny, too. Can we say Word (de)Press? Ha.
Regarding Parelli: I about ralfed when Walter Zettl, one of my favorite “Old World masters,” joined up with Parelli (I know, I know — I’m mixing my NH metaphors. Sorry about that). Here’s Pat, dirty hat, baggy jeans, baggy shirt, baggy belly, poorly groomed mustache, standing next to one of the most wonderful dressage teachers alive today (a friend took her horse to a clinic with WZ in Utah, and when she returned, I asked her about it. “It was MAGIC,” she said) and neither one looked very comfortable with the other.
I’ve said this before, but the “Seven Games” are an invitation to absolute disaster — seeing Pat sitting on the ground, winded, after “cantering” with his horses while they canter on, at liberty, around him, is SO IRRESPONSIBLE because you just KNOW some ijit in the audience is thinking, “Heck, that thar thang looks so easy, Ah think Ah’ll head on home ‘n try it out with ol’ Diablo soon as I git outta mah truck.”
I watched a local Parelli demonstration last year with a man sitting in a white plastic chair lungeing his horse around him while a woman worked her horse (I think her horse was on a line, too). Anyway, her horse had enough of it after awhile and took off running to far the corner of this huge arena, leaving HER to run after it. Some “game.”
And the man in the chair stood a very good chance of having a lungeline wound around his neck.
Parelli et al were at an Equine Affaire in Pomona four or five years ago. Fairplex and the EA people told them not to jump their horses over picnic tables — insurance issues, liability, etc. The Parellis said they didn’t care WHAT anyone said, picnic table jumping was part of their presentation and they were going to do it. So they did — and have not been invited back.
I have done the “look bigger” thing with the horses — I raise my arms and step forward if anyone comes toward me with ears pinned — I growl, too. The rescue in my barn, Ryan, gets a little silly when it’s time to come in from turnout. We have “leading lessons” where I take a couple of steps and stop. He knows he’d better stop, too. He’s 20-something and 17hh, so it’s not like we’re teaching babies here.
The bottom line is, these are HORSES, not toys. They ARE work, and it’s work every day. Even ol’ “Comatose” can come alive and unintentionally inflict bodily harm if you’re not paying attention.
Everything in your post is spot on. I have a WC halter gelding that pins his ears and snakes at feeding time. I got bit once, my fault. He now knows he will wear the grain or water bucket right in the face if he even thinks about it.
I had a WB colt that was ok the first day of his life. By 24 hrs old it took 3 adults to tackle him just to get his blood drawn. Only got worse with time. At 2 weeks I took both hind feet in my face while trying to halter him for the nth time. (I like my foals broke to lead by 2 weeks.) He had to be tranq’d to trim. Laid down if lead even if he got dragged. Fought everything. I sent him to a trainer for problem colts as a yearling and he kicked him out after a month. A week later, he reared and spun when being haltered and knocked his eye out. I called the vet and had him euthed within an hour. Colt was truly dangerous and obviously an extreme case. Euthanasia was the only option, not selling him to someone.
I’ve raised foals for 20+ years and had them ready for fall futurities. I have also culled mares that produced hot, stupid foals no matter how nice they looked. No brains, no thanks.
Nature vs. nurture? I have found that nurture, environment and consistent handling will usually prevail. Sometimes horses of any age will need reminded of the consequences of disrespect fhotd listed. Just do it.
My mare had a huge “WTF REAR ZOMG” moment a few weeks ago. I could tell it was an off day when I went to gather her from the pasture and she was calling for her buddies. We got to the water where the gelding fence and mare fence meet and sure enough – two geldings start fighting. My horse being the dumbass she can be decided she didn’t like me and went into a similar rearing fit with the exception that she was attempting to bolt and she wasn’t enjoying the pressure of me hanging on and telling her to stay. Easiest solution? Get her moving forward. Tight circles at the trot until she calmed down. If she got too close on the circles she got hit on the shoulder with the lead rope and by the end of it all, she was fine.
That woman is holding that stick like limp noodle. If my horse came at me like that I would make sure that stick would be making contact, not dangling. I don’t abuse my horse but I don’t tolerate shit from her either. I have an alpha mare with the size to match and she needs to respect whose boss. She also needs to be reminded every once and a while but such is the life of horse ownership.
I can’t believe people let their horses get away with so much. I ride a 13.2hh Welsh Cob for a friend when she’s at uni, (he was gelded late) and while he can be bolshy, a good smack gets his respect. To begin with he knew that he was stronger than me but he soon figured out that I’m in charge. Tyson constantly tests your leadership skills, and will follow you anywhere (even through scary horse-eating bridges on bridlepaths) if you show that you won’t back down. In his field there are 4 other horses, one is a 17hh ex-racehorse that can be galloping across the field but stopped by me standing with my hand out. It is scary when a horse is flying towards you, which is probably why a lot of people back down and away from them. Once again, I think it is an education issue, rather than purposely hurting their horses.
… forgot to add, Tyson also reacts well to being ignored. He’s the cleverest horse I know (Escape artist and everything) but I now know him well enough to know when to ignore his behaviour. Occasionally, when he really wants to gallop he will threaten to rear and sort of dance around but if I tell to “walk on” and squeeze him on he realises he won’t get attention for that behaviour, and won’t do it again. He did go through a phase of rearing but that stopped when I bought him a new bridle.
I think that if I didn’t know loads of horsey people then I would never be able to handle a git like Tyson. The girl in the clip probably doesn’t have an experienced horseperson to bollock her when she lets the mare act like that.
Ahhhhhhhh. Makes you angry doesn’t it.
I have a horse I show now that still likes to revert back every once in a while to “SCUSE ME IM HEADING FOR FOOD NOW” back to his stall, etc. And we still have to go back to the “basics” on what is and what is not acceptable.
Apparently he was at a trainers to be broke out at 5 or 6 and he would charge him on the lunge. He certainly gives me sass on the lunge, but he sure as shit does what I tell him to do. This is our third season together, and we do share a very good bond. However, it did all begin with kicks in the ass.
He gives grouch faces and still bites the air when being tacked up, though I can tack him up completely untied in a stall aswell and he just bites at the wall. We’ve bartered that this is acceptable if he must have a pacifier in that way. He is not girthy at all once we’ve left our tack up area however, if I tighten the girth once we’ve got to the arena or when I’m on him, he doesn’t give two shits. (I’m sure at somepoint, fairly heavy western saddles were slammed on his back and immediately cinched up tight.)
We also share many cuddles when appropriate, he is a very affectionate horse once clear ground lines have been established. Quite simply; the rules MUST be laid in order to have a working relationship with a horse.
You’d think people would get that, wouldn’t you.
I’m shocked that she thinks the horse is playing, when she’s having to move out of the way just to keep from getting clobbered. I haven’t dealt with a rearing horse before, and I don’t know much about how you would go about correcting that, but it seems awfully stupid to be working with a rearing horse without having the slightest way of controlling them. How is she planning on getting a halter on, if she’s continually having to scoot out of the way?
I really do not get people who won’t correct AT ALL. I’ll be the first to admit that I’m far more permissive than I should be – I tend to ignore it (no praise or ‘oh that’s so cute’, but not quite correcting it either) on the first offence (or two), or, in some cases, I just try to prevent it by, say, keeping a hold on the halter if I know a horse nips – but even I dole out smacks if they continue.
If you look at that video again, at 1:52 – that is a strike at the owner – not play!! Just shaking me head!!!! Dumb as!!
My horse thought he was going to be cute today and kicked out while I was picking a hind foot. Clearly not intended to connect, but it was blatant disrespect. His former owner let him get away with all kinds of crap, and every now and then he feels the need to test my leadership. I most certainly didn’t let him get away with it! I hauled off and slapped him on the hip along with a “Oh you did not just do that!” He decided I was still in charge and stood nicely for me to finish our pre-ride grooming, and then was an angel for our trail ride.
At another barn I boarded at a while back, a pony mare was eating hay, her owner entered the stall, and the little bitch kicked her in the back. Their solution? “Don’t go in her stall when she’s got food.” EXCUSE ME? What would have happened if sweet little pony had pulled that on a higher ranking herd member? Same damn thing that would have happened if she’d done it to me, she would have gotten her ass kicked!
I baby talk my horse, and spoil him and pamper him. But if he thinks about disrespecting me by pushing me around, trying to kick or bite, etc, I will come down hard on him. And he knows it, which is why he rarely tries it. I don’t tolerate that shit, and it’s one of the many reasons I hate this natural horsemanship crap.
I watched the video, at least 2/3 of it before I gave up. I don’t see anything that says she is doing Parelli. What I see is someone who lacks any horsemanship at all. I don’t see that you can blame this clueless person on Parelli.
The Parelli I learned would deal with this at the stall front when the mare pinned her ears (actually, the mare would never have gotten that far and there just would not ever have been a problem) and it never would have reached the level seen in the roundpen. The Parelli I learned demands safety always. But wait, I actually delved into it, not just taking a superficial look and deciding it is all loves & hugs to the horse and no respect. Sadly, Parelli does attract those who want their “horseys” to be friends and “luv” them–but who don’t want to do the actual work. They usually don’t last long in Parelli-land but you see them everywhere, thinking they are doing Parelli.
That horse is going to hurt that girl–not If, but When. And the horse will get the blame.
i used to do some parelli training with my horse back when she was about 3 (she’s 9 now) and i must say that she is a very well behaved horse, possibly because of the parelli training. i’m not sure what parelli is teaching his students these days (one of the main reasons i quit – couldn’t keep up with all the system updates :-/), but it used to be all about firm consistent cues.
if you can’t tell if you are pushing the horse around or if the horse is pushing you around, draw a circle in the sand and see if you can hold your ground. i see people being pushed around by their horses all the time – and they don’t even realize it. if nothing else, the parelli program taught me to be mindful of those things.
nowadays you hear so much negative about the programs, but i can’t really understand how someone who actually followed the directions of the program could create a disrespectful horse. only maybe when the horse had problems to begin with and the person wimped out at the wrong moment.
i haven’t been an active parelli follower for years now, but i still find some of the techniques extremely helpful when working with pushy horses. most of it is really common sense though.
From reading comments, I guessed I missed that clueless was carrying a carrot stick. OF course, it may have been a Clinton Anderson Handy Stick or a Dennis Reis what-ever-he-calls-his stick. Or it may have been left by the roundpen & she grabbed it. I was just too amazed at the horse’s behaviour that she thinks is cute.
*sigh* People need to stop blaiming Parelli, or natural horsemanship in general. It’s not their fault that this girl is deluded into thinking that her horse is “playing” with her. Believe me, I do Parelli and I have a snotty black mare that likes to rear up when she doesn’t want to go a certain direction, and that is NOT tolerated. I make her move her feet (not mine) until she is going the direction I wanted without resistance. And she has never come after me and reared at me like that horse was doing. She only does it occasionally online.
Using parelli methods was the only thing to keep a girl at horse camp from being bulldozedd by her TWH, I took him from her, and he quickly learned the concept of personal space by using.. guess what? The seven games, mostly the yo-yo game (shaking the rope). It’s a lot more than shaking, and combined with a carrot stick to the chest when they really don’t get it, it’s quite effective. Before long he was leading quietly and repectfully. Same thing happened with another one of my campers, only with a shetland pony.
I have a horse that if he’s been in the barn for a couple days (we get some really bad weather, and they can’t go out), is a terror taking him out to the pasture again. Previously we could only get him out of the barn safely with a stud chain, after parelli, not longer needed. Just a reminder or two while he’s in the barn aisle and he leads safely out of the barn and to the pasture.
Why do people post videos and photos of themselves in (at best) compromising siutations on the Internet, and then forbid anyone to make any negative remarks about it?
HA! I’m on! Wacked out old ladies seem to think along the same paths. That would be you and I Fugly. I’m on a bit of a rant about respect myself. Great post.
You know what, I could do a post entitled “100 Things Parelli Teaches and How They Will Get You Hurt and F Up Your Horse.” And I may do that one day. Let’s start with that stupid letting the horse walk behind you crap. When the horse is walking behind you, you can’t see the horse. When it spooks, it will run over the top of you and you won’t even see it coming. Horses should lead at your shoulder where you can constantly watch them and see a spook or other misbehavior coming in time to take appropriate action.
I really could go on for 99 more points. I will work on that post!
>>Why do people post videos and photos of themselves in (at best) compromising siutations on the Internet, and then forbid anyone to make any negative remarks about it?< <
That’s one of the eternal questions of the Internet. By posting that warning, they acknowledge that they know they have posted something questionable. So why not just, you know, not post it?
People scream about being judged on the Internet but you are judged by what you put out there of your own free will, unless of course someone is on a big defamation campaign against you which does happen occasionally!
I’m pretty sure she’s lying and was actually trying to get that horse to rear. Watch closely. She’s waving UP with the lunge whip, and on several occasions after the horse rears, it approaches her and she puts her hand out to it. Giving it a treat as a reward, perhaps?
I especially love what the girl says in the sidebar: “She does not rear.” Well, hello, honey, she just did. A LOT. She may not have been a rearer before, but she is now, thanks to you!
Has anyone else noticed that ‘Silly Tilly’ seems to hate her owner? Strange that, isn’t it?
“Nothing can replace the blood, sweat, and tears I’ve shared with her, nor the endless hours, emotions, and understanding.” Sure, but my might need a bit more than a blood transfussion when those hooves smash down into her skull…
If any of the horses I deal with did anything like this to me, I would have no hesitation to smack their butts into next week; the seven week old, the seven year old, and the twenty year old. Why? Because that’s not got respect, and a horse who shows no respect is not a horse I want to be near!
I’d never heard of Parelli until I bought my current horse and I was told that he had been started off using Parelli methods. At first I was quite impressed because for a youngster he was already pretty bombproof even in heavy traffic and things that are usually scary for a youngster left him unfazed. Unfortunately his less desirable traits soon started to come out. We distract him with some hay when we clean his field since he flattened my stepdad, there is no malice in him but he has no respect for a person’s space and will just go over you to get where he wants. He is being friendly but gets too close and won’t move away. On the lunge he would come in at me, a pet hate of mine as I like my horses to stop out on the circle and wait. I’m afraid I found that intimidating and he knew it and soon refused to lunge. I’m not big and tough, and he isn’t afraid of the whip so I’m dealing with that by putting a roller on him and lunging him with two reins. When he comes at me I haul on the outside rein and send him on and if it hurts his mouth then tough luck. He is learning but I think it is going to take a long time.
I’ve had my own horses for nearly 30 years, including another youngster who had been allowed to find out how strong he was. I dealt with him ok and he was my best friend for 23 years, but this one is proving to be much more of a challenge. I’m finding it quite hard to hold my nerve but he is always reprimanded for his bargy behaviour so hopefully I will win in the end.
“We follow when a leader says yes, because we have learned from experience that a real leader doesn’t say yes or no capriciously. That is the relationship you are trying to build; a relationship based on the horse trusting when you say yes or no it is for an intelligent reason, and your requests are usually the right decision. You do that with horses by setting up examples where yes is the right answer and no is the hard way, and demonstrating how you will say yes and no, then when you are in a situation that needs leadership, your horse will trust that you have made the right decision, and you will trust that the horse knows what you are asking him or her to do. ”
That is the very best succinct explanation of good horse (animal) training I have ever read.
Fugs -looking forward to that ’99 ways’ PP post, but if you’re going to do the PP post, might as well throw John Lyons, Charles Wilhelm and all their ‘disciples’ in as well…
Oh, boy. Don’t you just LUV your pretty poneh when she pins her ears at you and swings her head around when you approach her stall?? Isn’t that KYOOT?? And look, I can make her rear up like Trigger just by being in the same general area as she is. Kyool, huh? Horses are so spiritual, it is against the laws of nature to discipline them! And if you think I am not a good horsey owner for letting her rear up and strike and charge at me, then fuck you! I’ve owned horses for WEEKS and I know about all there is to know now. I borrowed a horse training DVD that I didn’t really watch but saw a few clips from, and that’s all I need. Tomorrow I’m gonna start training horses for other people, so lighten up, smarty pants, I’m a professional!
My horse leads MUCH better a little behind me. He is 15 years old and I have only had him since January. I think he must have been trained that way.
For the first few months I had him, I tried leading him at my shoulder, and he was just a freak! Snorting and looking all around and always spooking at the same stuff day after day. He also spooked into me twice, knocking me over. I even had his eyesight checked (it’s fine). I was actually wondering if I could train him to lead with me on either side of him, so I could stay on the “safe” side of the scary stuff.
Two different trainers at the barn and my farrier suggested staying a little ahead of him. The idea apparently is that this gives him more of an escape route. And you are supposed to trust the horse not to run you over (I guess this would not work with horses that don’t care about running you over). I was a little dubious about this, because you CAN’T see the horse, but it was like I had a new horse from the first time I tried it. I actually asked by BO if he had changed his feed!
Now, he is not very far behind me (2 feet or so), and he must stay to the right of me. He is not allowed to walk directly behind me. I can feel it in the lead rope if he gets off course and I correct him. I would say that 95% of the time now, he just plods along, head down, and does not even look at the scary stuff anymore. If he tries to get alongside or ahead of me, he gets backed up a couple of steps and then we proceed. And when I stop, he stops. In addition to being able to feel where he’s at, I can hear him breathing differently when he does get nervous now and I just check to make sure he has still got it together back there. If not, then we stop so he can look around and decide everything is still OK.
I also practice in his pasture when he is just following me around. I will suddenly stop to make sure he stops. He always does.
He is so much more comfortable this way. I assume that 1. he was trained this way, and 2. that walking alongside me confused him. It was clearly stressful for him, like he did not know who was in charge.
I have a 7 year old stud, knows his manners and is very quiet. he does not talk to other horses, keeps his manhood to himself even in the company of mares. he respects my space and does not drag me around trying to get to other horses. he rarely nips, I say rarely because he has bitten me once and nipped me a time or two. my fault though. did not read the signs fast enough to see if coming, the bite, well he came over his stall door at feeding time and nailed me in the arm before I even saw him coming. first time he has ever done that or showed any inclination to do that. as shocked as I was I did not let it go unpunished. I had him by the upper lip before he could get his head back over the stall door and twisted it hard and backed him up. no way was that going unpunished. This is the first stallion I have personally owned, have been around some rank ones with no respect and I would geld him in a heartbeat if he lost his respect.
On the other hand, I have a spoiled rescue mare who used to just run you over to get what she wanted. yep she got clocked with a grain bucket too! her trick was to drop down low in the front then slam into you with her shoulder and knock you down so she could run off…worked with her previous owner lol. last time she tried I went for a ride on her head but didnt let go and it confused her so she stopped, we then worked on my space…her space…she now respects my space, I pay attention around her. she is dog gentle but new situations cause her to forget under the pressure. I trust her, but know her. the guy I got her from raised her for 8 years but still didnt know her and she put him in the hospital.
My grandma use to halter all her foals within a day or two. They were haltered with mom and lead out to pasture and then again with mom to go back to the stall at night. Sometimes if baby didn’t want to be caught mom would step in, because she was eager to go out and eager to come back in with the hay and grain, and baby would soon be caught. Each time before leaving the barn either in or out baby would get rubbed all over and all 4 feet were picked up, that right there takes care of a lot of problems. By the time they are yearlings it was second nature to them and they didn’t know there was any other way. My 3 year old rescue filly had a hernia and would kick up at you if you tried to check it out, it only took 3 times before she realized that she was going to get an open hand smack hard on her belly every time she did it, now you can go up and rub all over her belly and she stands there like a lady. And no she didn’t pick up feet when I got her either but she does now also. One of my geldings would get pushy at feeding time because he wasn’t getting his grain quick enough to his liking, a nice low angry voice and finger pointed at him telling him he’d better back it up as I was making him back up, no I wasn’t touching him my finger was about 6 inches from his nose lol, I backed him up that way about 10 feet and then tried it again and had to back him up again he decided it was easier to not get pushy and get his grain then get pushy and get in trouble and not get his grain right away. The one and only time my stallion got poopy with me was also feeding time. I had just fed him and noticed he had a twig in his tail so reached over to pull it out to which he pinned his ears a little and turned his butt to me…BIG mistake!!! I got the twig and took his grain away and told him we’d try it again tomorrow lol the look on his face when he watched the grain bucket walk off. I did throw in an extra flake of hay to make up for it but that look on his face I will never forget and he did learn his lesson from it you can do whatever you want to while he’s eating now and he doesn’t get poopy about it. I really do love a food oriented horse lol
“It’s not about disrespecting the human – horses do this kind of stuff to each other all the time, and it’s not considered disrespect when that happens. ”
!! Obviously you don’t have a herd with a hierarchy.
If ANY horse does that to a higher-status horse, they learn what the sad sea waves are saying — from the other horse. Keep in mind that “play” is offered or accepted by the high-status horse.
As the human involved, we are supposed to be the alpha. You’re right — if the horse is actually playing, no beating is involved IF the human reacts appropriately the first time, by rejecting the attempt in no uncertain terms. And, no, I’m not going all Parelli here — I just like not having to worry about being run over in my yearling pastuer.
This little girl is going to get killed. It is sad that she thinks that this behavior is “Cute”. Hopefully she will take some advice and spank that nasty mare’s ass! I would never let my horse act like that!
Pretty much always, I agree with Fugly again, however, I’m personally going to cut this girl some slack, as most people would instantly walk away from a horse with this kind of attitude, she does have a draw to this horse. IMO this girl is just as Fugly states… being guided by these Parelli fanatics or Natural Horsemanship freaks. I feel if she was guided by someone like I, or Fugly, anyone with Horse Common Sense, she would see the danger she
was being dealt by her horse, and that it was not a “silly play” episode. I browsed through her comments, and she’s not being some selfish arrogant kid, she defends her horse more than her own actions. Which tells me she’s just being misguided by some asshole who thinks Parelli is the Horse God. Just My thoughts.
Fugly is absolutely correct when stating horses like this end up hurting someone and go to slaughter or so Gawd Damn abused they turn into Two Socks condition. Sad But Very True.
One last note… I went down to see what all the hype was… Linda Parelli is so frickin scared of horses it’s FUNNY! I seen the woman in action, she’s scared of her own damn horse… Seen it with my own eyes in Fort Worth!
Slightly OT, but this story reminded me… In a lot of the barns I frequented, I would find people that jerked on their horse’s halter to make them back up. While it could be effective, it bugged me that their faces were getting yanked off, but I didn’t know of any other way, other than carrying a short whip for reach to make a horse get off my back. Then a friend of mine showed me what her trainer did with bargey horses; she always had an extra long lead rope on the horses that liked to run over her, and if it happened, she would wave the end of the rope around their knees (not tangling, but tickling) to make them back up, and sometimes tapping against the chest. Of course, if a more intimidating method was needed, she’d use it, but it was great for horses that just needed the reminder to not run up her back, and it didn’t yank off their faces.
Completely OT, can anyone recommend a good trail riding place in central NJ?
Starrystar’s story is just the type of story that i hear so often and that baffles me. Honestly – for every exercise parelli has for getting the horse to come to you, he has about 10 to teach the horse to move away from pressure. i can’t remember anything at all that should encourage crowding the handler. I’ve met non-parelli horses that are exactly like Starrystar’s horse that have actually benefited from parelli exercises and gotten better about personal space. So where exactly does the system brake down for those post-parelli disaster horses?
about the leading the horse behind you: while i would never do it with a horse i don’t know, i really wouldn’t consider it all that dangerous with a horse who has already learned to respect your personal space. there are a bunch of practices that i find a lot more potentially dangerous: for example, leading more then one horse at the time, yet you see that often enough even in good barns.
i’m also looking forward to the ’99 ways’ post, not that i could debate you on all of the points (i’m sure i will even agree on a bunch of them, in fact i can think of a few right now myself, but that is also true for common english stuff), but just to hear more of your views on the topic.
>>Don’t you just LUV your pretty poneh when she pins her ears at you and swings her head around when you approach her stall?? Isn’t that KYOOT?? < <
Yeah, right there I knew it was going to be ugly. That mare’s body language said, oh god, here comes that annoying little twit again, maybe if I make an ugly enough face, she will go away. Right there you do not have a “bond” with your horse.
Oh, I remember my first foal. I was selling a project pony when I spied a little bay Quarter Horse filly in one of the pastures. She was three months old and very shy. The pony was sold, but a few months later I was back with a trailer for that filly.
For the first few weeks, she was in her own quarantine stall and large paddock. She was technically halter-broke, but didn’t lead, and one day when I was careless with the rope, it touched her hoof and she freaked out. Trusting my instincts, I let her be for the day, and when I returned a few days later, she was out with other weanlings. She was more than happy to be lead around…as if the previous day had never occurred.
I began to take her for walks every few days. She had to walk past nasty broodmares, neighing foals, and colts. By the time she was well into her first year, she knew better than to ignore me for the colts. She learned to tie and not pull back from pressure, pick up her feet, groom, fly spray. And then disaster struck.
Twice when she was a yearling, she got severely ill. Gone were her pasture and friends, instead she got a triple stall and shots twice a day. And, being a yearling, she didn’t take to that. She paced in her stall for the first few days, the first time around, and then began to associate people with shots. Which meant I and whoever else would feed/inject her were greeted with a butt and pinned ears. Callie learned pretty quickly that was NOT acceptable.
Not hard feelings, though. Two years later, she is a supremely well-mannered three year old. Before working with her, I’d always been wary of two year olds and three year olds because they always seemed completely mannerless. My rule with Callie was to always imagine her as being fully grown, and not expect her to be perfect, but to expect manners and respect. It’s paid off. I call her precocious, but I don’t really mind. Especially when I brought her to a new barn, and saw a skinny looking thing that turned out to be a Quarter Horse running through her owner’s hands and later biting at the crossties. The owner came and said hello to me while I giving Callie a tour of the place. Turns out the skinny, nasty thing was three. “How old is Callie?” “Three.” “Oh.” Big difference. But I’m proud of it.
i learned alot starting out with an arabian foal who walked all over me. we got lessons and i learned alot and i still have him 10yrs later. i have since raised a few foals that were completly untrained when i got them i teach mine to lead as early as possible. my favorite is my qh who i got at 3mo old he was really sick when i first saw him he had lice,fungus infection,lung worms and resistant worms and wild he would dive under horses to get away if he saw you looking at him he was the sickest most freaked out horse i had ever seen. within a months time i had him leading picking up his feet taking a bath(not real happy about the bath but he did it) and loading into a trailer and i used a parelli carrot stick they work great for getting a horse used to being touched when the horse rears strikes and kicks when you try to touch it i will never forget the hell that foal put the vet through when he first saw him reared up on his hind legs after the vet who ended up giving him a shot in the chest while he was reared.today that foal is a calm quiet and extremly mellow 3yr old who is going on light trail rides and goes ANYWHERE i point his nose.
People at the boarding stable keep remarking about how polite and “easy” my horse is. Often with the suggestion that that’s just his nature and I have it easy. And my answer is always – that doesn’t come naturally. It took a lot of hard work to start with, and maintenance even now, only that’s too subtle to register as training on the radar of most people. I’m disabled, so it’s always been extra important to me that he takes great care to never push or pull, always gives me space, doesn’t rub his face on me when he’s itchy, stands still when I need him to, etc. I correct the impoliteness and he never gets to the point of being rude. When I couldn’t ride or see him much for a year because of surgery and someone else rode him, all that stuff lapsed because she didn’t have the same awareness of where disrespect starts (in the subtle things).
As well as the politest horse at the yard, he is also one of the happiest, most stable and confident horses there. He’s brave, curious and up for anything you might want to throw at him. I firmly believe that that’s to do with having completely clarity about how role in life, what is and what isn’t allowed, and what is expected of him.
I’m so glad you brought up this topic. I was actually just dealing with this a few days ago. A friend of mine was riding his horse and it started crowhopping. So he pulls up the reins and it pulls back for about two strides, then suddenly rears. BIG. [Now, I'll stop right here and say that I've noticed a lot of people at barns I've been at or shows I've gone to, epecially those less experienced, will punish a horse when it's not necessarily doing what they wanted, though it is doing what they're cuing it to. I believe realizing that a lot of problems stem from rider error (such as not approaching the jump in the correct number of strides or at the right angle) is a big step in becoming a true horseman.] Anyway, so my friend comes up to the side of the arena and asks me what he did wrong. What HE did wrong. While I appreciate the patience and understanding it takes to evaluate what exactly caused the horse’s misbehavior… in this case, the only thing that could be blamed here was that his horse didn’t have a wet saddle blanket. This horse has had problems bucking before and has accumulated countless appointments with the vet, dentist, chiropractor, and masseuse to ensure that there is no pain involved. And it isn’t that this horse’s rider isn’t competent… its just he’s too afraid that he will punish at the wrong time and cause more problems. I told him that he’s a great rider, and for the simple tasks that he’s asking his somewhat green horse to do, there is no excuse for misbehavior like that and no excuse why you shouldn’t correct it immediately. Has anyone dealt with this before? When they meet someone who is not letting the horse get away with it because they think its personality is so cute but because they feel that they are ALWAYS to blame?
I’m with Renaissance – I use Parelli principles with my horse and she is a very respectful mare who considers me her leader. Parelli, done correctly, works. (BTW, I also RIDE my horse, lol!) I think that the reason there are so many scary “Parelli people” out there is because the Parelli program is primarily a home study course, and most people “self assess”. It also appeals to a lot of first-time horse owners. The combination is scary.
Pat Parelli is a gifted man, there is no doubt about it. Watching him with a horse is very cool. For all those touchy-feely (mostly) women who think the idea of Natural Horsemanship is all hugs and kisses, Pat’s message is “Love, Language and Leadership in equal doses.” I think too many people get stuck on “Love” and stop there.
Have to add that as I was scrolling through comments, I found these:
“nope lol she’s being a nut and playing
I was actually asking her to go around the edge of the roundpen and she didn’t want to leave me, so whenever I’d tell her to walk off, she’d be like NO I want to play with YOU! [rearx3]”
RP In: Yes, because all of our horses lunge in at us and strike and rear when they want to PLAY with us.
“yeah she’s funny when she does it :] I have to make sure I have a carrotstick or longe whip with me just in case she gets too close so I can wave it in her face lol”
RP In: She’s soooo kyoot. You know I have to carry a whip for protection, but isn’t she just adorable? I love how she plays and strikes at me!
“Read my description before you comment like that. She is indeed playing, and has never even thought to rear except when loose while free longing in a small enclosure. I’ve worked with this mare nearly every day for four years, and I know every facet of her personality. If it wasn’t “playing” then her ears wouldn’t be forward and she would be blowing and licking her lips.
And I do yell at her when she rears too close to me, it was cut out of the video.”
RP In: RIGHT. If she WASN’T playing she would be showing submissiveness. :\ So, disrespect is actually playfulness, and horses are full of goodness and light with no darkness or capacity for intent to hurt?
I’d just like to take a moment and ask, once again, that people refrain from leaving nasty comments on the video. The video’s still up, but if the hateful comments continue there’s a good chance she’ll pull it.
Feel free to voice your opinion, but let’s all play nice.
Oh found one more…This one’s priceless to those of you arguing the “this horse doesn’t rear” point:
“lol!! yeah tilly loves to do this all the time, it’s just the first time I got it on camera
uh oh.. haha the only time tilly bucks with me on her is when she’s super excited [like when I ask for a flying change or something lol]”
RP In: FTW?! You let your horse buck AND rear, simply because she’s excited? My horse bucked when he was “excited” too, and when he ignored backing and sudden turns as punishment, he continued until I laid the crop into his butt. All it took was once and he did it no longer.
And I don’t let my horses do anything like that under ANY circumstances. I don’t care if some freak comes running at us and grabs his bridle (although I wouldn’t necessarily take the opportunity to discipline him in that situation
), he WILL NOT REAR. Period! It’s an unacceptable behavior when I’m around! My gelding was a stallion for 4 years (9 now) and still occasionally shows stud-like behavior (striking, namely) but he will NOT do it at me or even to another horse while around me because he knows it’s not okay. He also won’t look at a horse sideways in any sort of mean way because if I see that he’s even contemplating hurting another horse while I’m near, I’ll get after him for that too. I am not willing to be killed because my horse “has instincts”. Yes, his instinct is to buck when he’s upset or rear when he’s upset, not taking into account the times when it’s out of pain. And yet, sane people don’t let their horses do that either! He can control his instincts when I’m around him. Period.
I’ve come across a few horses turned dangerous due to lack of proper disciplining, but I’ve also met horses that became dangerous from inconsistent and/or poorly executed disciplining. The most dangerous horse I’ve ever met and handled didn’t become that way because no one had tried to correct her, but because they hadn’t understood why she was acting the way she did and therefore their methods only reinforced the problem. In the end she ended up almost killing someone, before she was handed over to people who understood her underlying (not pain-related) problem. She turned out okay in the end, but it took a long time and a lot of patience (and yes, whips were involved – even though the real turning point came when she got beaten up by another horse and was forced to realise that there were, in fact, other beings that could decide where she was allowed to place her feet).
Regarding foals – where I come from, there seem to be two main philosophies when it comes to foal handling. Either you handle the foal a whole lot from a very young age, or you do only the necessary stuff and more or less leave it alone otherwise. To me it seems the most experienced breeders, the ones who consistently turn out nice, well-mannered young horses, mostly adhere to the second school of thought. Their reasoning are that they much prefer a young horse that still has a healthy dose of respect for humans, to an over-confident over-handled yearling who has learned to walk all over humans. But these are also the breeders who are not afraid to give a young foal a proper smack when it is needed – which it rarely is, because they never put the foal in a position where it has a chance to earn that smack.
Now, most “hobby breeders” seem to breed their mare for the kyoot factor and want to spend as much time as possible with the foal, unwittingly teaching their foals that humans are completely harmless beings that sometimes are even less firm with the discipline than their mothers. Leaving the foal alone would have prevented the creation of problems that can be very hard to solve later down the road. Now, someone used to foal handling could probably choose either method and the horse would turn out just fine, but I wonder where all this “handle the foal every day for X minutes or it will turn into a BEAST” stuff that I’m seeing is coming from, when I think the latter method would work much better ESPECIALLY for someone inexperienced.
Sorry, but as a student of Parelli (which this girl is obviously NOT) no horse would be allowed this behavior in Parelli. There are lots of people who claim to be Parelli (or other NH methods) and it is sad that they do it wrong or don’t follow through and the method gets blamed for it. If you do it right like any other training (horses, dogs, other animals) and follow through you get results…..you don’t you get issues. Parelli is more about teaching your horse to respect you and your space and work as a team. It is a bit different than other NH methods. Your also learn to see the signs the horse is giving you with body language, which most horse owners would benefit from. As we all know there are not bad horses, just bad / lazy owners. I would certainly not blame this horses behavior on Parelli or the person who claimed their Parelli trained horse is barging in on them while they lunge….that would not be acceptable in Parelli either. If they do that while lunging it is not because they are taught Parelli, they are taught to stop, turn toward you on the end of the line and wait until they are asked to come into the circle by you.
This girl on the video just seems like all the other young/ dumb/ dangerous kids who thinks it is funny for her horse to act naughty…well one kick to the head will cure that!
Jasper01 – I’ve had students like that, and as a trainer, it can be very frustrating. :p I’m glad they do look at their own behaviour towards the horse first when something goes wrong, but sometimes you just wish certain riders had a bit more… oomph. My own trainer once told me that sometimes you just have to trust that you’re doing the right thing and discipline even though you are not 100% sure – but if it worked, it was. If it didn’t work, then it wasn’t, and you take it from there. Simple.
‘Course, that doesn’t help the ones who go about disciplining all wrong…
Hey fugs…did you know you were ‘some bitter stranger on the internet?’ Saw it on youtube…rofl
Told the lil expert that if she has the chutzpah to post the vid, then she should have the balls to take the criticism. Or maybe it’s the other way around with the balls and chutzpah. Rule of Thumb and youtube: negative behaviour will incur negative comments.
Also told the little girl: the horse is not ‘showing you her belly’. The hooves are in front of the belly…she’s showing you those.
In the words of Bugs Bunny: WHAT A MAROON!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAnetPh_dZM
and eventually it may all be solved for her…
Don’t be too quick to tar all Parelli people with the same brush. I know 3 Parelli followers and all three would have no hesitation in giving a horse barging into them a smart smack with the carrot stick and all three would work the living PANTS of a horse rearing like this until the horse decided rearing was not a good idea.
Ah, such an ever-present problem. I remember when my horse was a weanling and I just SHOCKED some people who happened to see me pop my horse in the nose and yell at him when he tried to bite me. Of course, they just couldn’t understand why their horse was so naughty, always biting them.
Inconsistent and/or mis-timed discipline is just as bad too. I knew this guy who boarded briefly at the barn where my horse lives who let his horse stop and eat as much grass as it wanted on the way out on a trail, but on the way back he would get mad when the horse tried to stop and eat and beat the horse really hard all over with a whip. Wait, what?! The barn owner told the man she would not tolerate abuse like that, the guy couldn’t understand what he was doing wrong, and finally she told the guy to pack up and go elsewhere.
It seems like a lot of people, some of whom should really know better, just lack a basic understanding of horse behavior, and rarely if ever think ahead about consequences. If you’re going to own a horse, there’s not really an excuse for not learning about these things.
Thank you for the reminder on this issue. I am fairly new to horses and it is hard sometimes to make myself discipline them. Fortunately I keep my horses at a ranch with many knowledgable horse people who help me with this. Just this morning my trainer reminded me that a horse that tries to rub his head against you because he is itchy is a horse that is being dominant. Horses like to not be in charge, but if you aren’t, they know it and they will take charge. I have to work on this constantly because I am not a naturally dominant personality.
Come on guys, don’t be so hard on her, you’re just jealous that you don’t have her psychic/spiritual gift for communicating with your horse! I know you’re all dying to have the kind of deep connection where your horse honours you by showing you its belly (don’t be distracted by the hooves aiming at your head – your horse is saluting you as the obvious alpha mare or whatever). *snort*
When I read that part about her horse “exposing her vulnerable belly to her” I actually sprayed my computer with coffee! What planet is this girl from? “She actually does respect me, but her personality makes her act as if she doesn’t”. Ya. Like me.
I think that foal handling if done properly is a strong tool to be used. I worked at an arabian breeding ranch where we practiced imprinting. We try to be there when the foal is born and it gets used to being touched and handled from the first few moments. In the first couple of days it gets used to a halter, clippers, feet being handled and learns that humans are the boss and how to respect body space. Foals are never ever allowed to put their mouths on us. The mutal grooming instinct is satisfied by facing the foal towards the mom when we pet and scratch, so the foal can groom on his/her mom and not learn bad manners. The foal I was there for this year was leading without need of a butt rope with in a week, held still for haltering, and was very mannerly. I have seen their adult stallions baby jaw when they are confronted for misbehavior (trying to snatch hay through the feeding gate instead of waiting polietly a few steps back) as well as two year olds and yearlings. All from the handler sharply clapping their hands and growling “Bad Dog! Bad Dog!”. This farm is also very strict about watching behaviors when leading and taking the horse out for turn out. The horses are not allowed to barge and all are expected to stand quietly without sedation for full clips (including ears) and vet appointments. My point being is that if you are aware of your horse and foal behavior, imprinting and foal training can give you a huge leg up on training your horse. But you have to remember that foals are still horses! They can’t be allowed to get away with ANYTHING. The second thing you have to remember is only to use the force necessary to get the point across.
Now I’m still quite a ‘noob’ when it comes to horses. I’ve worked around a few, and done some stuff that if a horse had gone after me it would have been likely warranted, however even I was thinking “Oh hell no, no way I’d allow that!” while watching this. I’ve had a run in with a few horses that I KNEW I was a noob, and went “Well maybe…” and just freaking common SENSE, drove me to correct them. It might not be the ‘trainer’ or ‘textbook’ was but every one of them did not try it twice.
The POA mix that decided he wasn’t going to go down the trail and was going to go ‘home’ who found his nose touching his tail until he went the way *I* wanted, not the way he wanted.
The Quarter horse mix that took off bucking with me across a field (longer story to this, the short of it was she had the ‘wrong bit’ in according to her owner (something about a soft bit, and she needed a hard one… I was too young to understand) and even though I knew how to get her head in my hands, she grabbed the bit and took off with me anyways, scared the shit out of me). However I KNEW better then to get off her when she stopped at the gate to the barn. I was mad so I smacked her hard on the shoulder, her ears went back and she looked at me like she’d never been slapped before. We then walked *back* across the field to her owner, and he then rode the heck out of her (and his other horse that his daughter fell *off* as well, her reins broke, only reason we could find she fell off). Next day neither of them even thought of acting up.
Last one I would have deserved to get flattened, but either I held myself well or the horse was more respectful then her own lead on. I was told one day while playing with two horses I knew the owner of, that one of her arabs was sweet as pie and if I wanted to I could put her bridle on and ride her bareback, or just halter her and walk her around to get to know her (her owner was leaving for a few hours so I was forbidden from taking her out of her pasture, but I was weclome to play with her in it). I was warned not to mess with the other one, she was a one person horse, abused by many owners, ect ect. She might lash at me or be a butt if I tried to touch her.
Well I got the two mixed up, I ended up messing around with trying to get the bridle on the ‘be careful’ one. The worse she did was try to point her nose up in the air as high as she could and pinned her ears. It was met with a stern “Hey your mom said you where *behaved*” in a growly tone and since I had the nose loop on her before she did the toss my head up, a firm tug to bring it down. A few head tosses and dirty looks and she let me, and even let me lead her around a bit. It wasn’t until I grabbed the bridal that was supposed to fit the one I was to mess around with… that I realized it was too big and the *other* horse was the one that was the nice one.
I told the owner when she got home and she was in shock, said no one else other then her has ever been able to handle her, and gave me free access to the horses whenever I wanted (though she still didn’t want to to ride the other one due to safety reasons, but she did let me lead her around and bring her from pasture to pasture/feed her and such). Never had a lick of complaint from her, other then when I rode her buddy in the same pasture with her, lead to her trying to barge over her buddy and lean on me, something that lead to swats from me, and nips from her buddy about personal space.
I used to love those two Arabs, they so far the the only two I’ve ever met that I liked, and where sweet to me.
DarthArwen, you really hit the nail on the head. I work more with dogs than horses, but it’s the same in both situations. I was recently reamed out by my vet, who believes that the “evil ‘I’m dominant’ Cesar Millan tactics” (yes, those are her words) are counterproductive to a good relationship with my dog. Then she proceeds to tell me about her two goldens, one of which was so easy to train while the other, well, “we’re just glad that she knows the little we can teach her.”
I didn’t really think about this until I got home, but I don’t really think it ever occured to her that our last dog was so “easygoing” and “good-natured” because we let him know that when we said Jump, he said How high? Otherwise that one bite he gave me when we first got him would probably be many bites.
I wish more people treated their animals as the animals would treat each other. There’s a reason human society is so different, and that’s because we think and reason so much better. And if someone comes to me with a Chihuahua that’s snapping at people, it’s not kyoot, and I will correct it the same way I would correct a Rottie that displays that behavior.
Sorry to drag the comments off-topic with the dog thing, but it’s SO TRUE. No one has the gall to properly discipline (and I mean appropriately, in a quick, firm way that communicates clearly it has done something wrong) their dog anymore, because heaven forbid the thing just crumple up into a pile of withered flowers or even worse, HATE them for being told “no”…maybe I’m just the only one who’s ever corrected her dog and gotten an even better relationship out of it than before? I’m sure the same goes with the horses I’ve worked with; ol’ Boss Mare didn’t seem to hate me for putting her in her place after she kicked out at me in the pasture!
What’s popular is not always right and what’s right is not always popular.
I didn’t get to see the video (damn dial-up) but I can well imagine. How to get killed in one easy lesson! Send money now! Only $….quick, before you get killed! Our MINIS aren’t allowed to do that! We’ve been complemented several times by different veterinarians on how well behaved our guys are. Well, yeah. Small or not they are STILL horses. And we treat them as such. From day one there will be no striking, no biting, no kicking, no pushing. You WILL get clunked with whatever is in my hand at the moment. (I clunked a mare this morning that tried to dive into the feed bucket I was holding. I had the scoop in my other hand and yes, she met it…) I am the BOSS and I am a BITCH. And they all learn that. It doesn’t kill them and we don’t hit hard enough to hurt them. Hard enough to make them take notice, yes, but not hard enough to cause damage.
That said, I did get a weanling Shetland pony filly this July that is, well, confused. When we first got her, she’d come up to you, jaw clapping. (I have NEVER had a foal jaw clap to ME. To other horses, yes, but never to a human. ) Then, if you moved, she’d immediately turn tail and kick! I have no idea what her orginal owners did to make her do this. I just put her out with my mellow geldings and let them teach her. She still jaw claps but hasn’t kicked out for a while. She does still turn her rump to us- nothing like THAT to jump start your heart! I’d love to show her this fall, but I’m afraid she’ll jaw clap at the judge! Or kick him!
I have almost gotten to the point where I’ll politely decline, if asked to work with a “natural horsemanship” trained horse, especially if I know that the owner is working alone without professional help. It’s just too much work to get those horses into any kind of proper, appropriate working mindset.
Slightly off topic, but I thought you and your readers might like to know: The Unwanted Horse Coalition just released the results of their national survey. I haven’t read it yet myself, but I thought people here would like to know about it ASAP.
Unwanted Horse Coalition. The survey itself is available on the top right of their homepage.
And one more aside: in the current issue of the Equine Journal, the Arabian Horse Association has taken out a full-page, very flashy ad, which reads simply “Register them: it’s their birthright!” with a photo of a lovely gray Arabian, and the text “Don’t let your Arabian horses slip into the shadows.” It gives a phone number to call for AHA Customer Help on discounts. What a great idea–sad that people need to be reminded to register their horses, but at least the breed association is trying, here!
I have a three year old roan gelding out in the pasture with my other horses and while he loves people( stuck ‘em up butt horse). He is still learning about personal space with us. We got him from a neighbor who thought ” oh let’s get a baby horse he’s sooo kyoot, Cute yeah but then instead of going in and handing him regular they would feed him over the fence, the wife got intimated by him because he started nipping at around a year of age, there young son would run up and don the fence with hi, They offered to sell him to us. so we brought him over and started teaching him manners, first came hooves, then baths, he’s been learning but still has a hard time realizing that there is my space and your space. After we moved our neighbors horses and our horses got together through a weak part of the fence and he charged her. He has tried to do this to me, my daughter, and anyone else that goes in his pasture especially at feeding time it is getting better, but consistency is the key with him, he does not try me anymore but my 14 year old daughter has fits with him and her personal space and I keep telling her it will take time and don’t let him give you any guff . I know a lot of his behavior issues come from not being properly socialized as a young horse you have to be proactive in teaching a young horse The worst horse I ever saw behavior wise was a racehorse and he wanted to stomp, bite and kick you all at the same time, they said he had always been a behavior problem and was on horse I would have euthanised if he would have been mine, during the time i was there i found out he had crippled one groom, broken the trainers arm by biting and slamming him in the wall, and he bit a chunk out of the ‘assistant trainers lip while I was there,they wouldn’t et me discipline him so I never went near him,.
Seems she’s taken the video down now – tried to look at it just now and it’s been changed to “private”.
I, of course, agree with the general consensus. That girl is going to get seriously hurt by that horse. She may think they have a bond, but the mare certainly doesn’t agree.
It’s not just Parelli done wrong that can make dangerous horses. I worked at a place with a two year old that was a prime example of imprinting done wrong. This was a BIG baby – 16 hands at two – Shire/TB cross. He had absolutely NO respect for humans at all. Most dangerous horse I’d ever worked with.
fwooper i agree on the foal thing. i have seen that happen before and some people think i am hard on my horses i dont let them get away with everything. my horses arent beaten but they will get smacked if needed even as foals. my qh at a year old i took him to a show in halter class just for the fun of it and he stood rock solid and calm as could be. even now at three thanks to him learning manners properly i can stand and talk to someone for as long as i want and he will stand by my side i can also let him graze in the yard he comes when i call him and follows me all my horses follow me i get comments on that all the time. i really think they enjoy having rules to live by
Rats. I ALWAYS get here too late…. *pouts* Why does the user always have to mark the video as private before I get to see????
Ah, well. I have a pretty good guess at what the video was like ;-]
What people who think that any discipline is being “mean” to a horse do not understand is that horse’s LIKE order and discipline in their lives! As herd animals, they LIKE having a leader, most do not even WANT to be the leader, and are much happier when they know their place. My horses are quite respectful and yet still adore me, they are truly happy horses, ears pricked, whinny when they see me (and no, I’m not the one who feeds them LOL), etc. As long as the horse understands WHY they are being disciplined and they are told what is right and what is wrong they are quite accepting of it, and everyone is happier because of it!
I don’t follow Parelli per se, but I do practice what most people would consider “natural” horsemanship (I use a carrot stick and stages of pressure), but regardless of what you want to call it, my horsemanship is grounded in common sense and safety. I have excellent results with my horses and I NEVER have a problem with them running over me, because, the way I was taught, you actually get the horse OUT of your space if it tries to push you. I take the leadership position with my horses, and they respect me, and, because I treat them fairly, they also like me. Bonus!
What’s funny is that I only started with natural horsemanship after what I was taught in Pony Club proved to create more problems than it solved. Don’t get me wrong: I have nothing against Pony Club on the whole (I think it’s a great club for promoting proper horse care and basic safety), but all the instructors I encountered in MY division used training techniques that were more like bandaids than actual solutions. For instance my horse chewed at the bit, so one trainer recommended a drop noseband (as opposed to identifying the underlying reason, which in my horse’s case, was a too harsh bit). Consequently, my horse got frustrated and started rearing instead. Then came the tie-down, followed by my horse starting to buck like a horse on a rodeo string. Each “solution” led to something worse than the original problem, because my horsemanship was based on equipment rather than genuine respect between me and my horse.
What it comes down to in my mind is that any horsemanship, natural or otherwise, can ruin a horse if their is disrespect on either side of the relationship. That may be a controversial opinion, but that’s what I believe and thus far, it’s worked for me.
Not sure if this is the same video, but it does show her horse”playing”,,, Wow, totally unacceptable!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tra91w0zxfU&feature=channel
I’m so glad you covered this- now if only the lady I rode for while home would read this. She’s a backyard rider who insists on keeping her barn fully stocked. She keeps purchasing ponies for her three children even though only the youngest (7 year old) has any interest in horses (she adopted an Amish-bred Shetland-mini-donkey-like mare from a local rescue for her to do lead-line, with a PennDot yellow saddlepad and fuchsia headstall, it’s embarrassing.)
Sometime in between one mistake pony (a chunky POA who had the perchance to buck around the ring in our only attempt in a pleasure class) and the next (a TWH who didn’t like to stop) she “discovered” Parelli. Now she tells me she is “regaining [Pyscho Appy]‘s trust” by “being his friend.” When you enter his stall he goes flying back to the corner and heaven forbid you go near his hooves. Made the mistake of agreeing to go on the trail with the lady, her appy, and the mare I was working with. The Appy wigged out at every object that moved- or had the potential to move. I would be less concerned if the lady’s way of coping wasn’t to *sing* to him. Not correcting his behavior, but singing to him because he’s so scared of the tree, or the bike, or the jogger- though somehow he’s fine with the Amish buggies? She also likes to sing his praises to who ever listens, that he’s a brilliant eventer and that he “switches directions if you shift your balance!” I told her to send him to an actual trainer, I know my limits and I’m under strict orders not have anymore horse-related ER visits.
While I was away at school she purchased yet another pony, a QH/Welsh cross mare who was in the blues at A and B shows every weekend down in MD with her previous owner. Between last year and this May she developed all sort of bad habits I had the privilege of working out. I knew whenever the lady or her son rode the mare because as soon as I took her out to the ring she would be back to square one: pinning her ears, trying to charge me, forgetting what the cues meant and having this silly idea that she could try to throw me because she didn’t want to trot. After working with her over the summer, I finally got back to a point where I wasn’t completely embarrassed taking her in a local schooling show. I can only pray that the hunter barn that expressed interest does snatch her up and keeps up with the no nonsense policy I instituted.
Yeah, being “bffs” with the horses really works.
IMHO this particular video is more an example of somebody posting infrequently occuring stuff they think is cute for their friends, in a media forum that is available to anybody, much like the college girls who post half-nekkid totally drunken photos of themselves and then are surprised when they lose a promising job interview because HR googled their name and found the pix. Tagging this one a parelli-ite just because of the carrot stick ummm, not so sure about that.
I do think the topic of spoiled horses/untrained horses is very important. Nobody wants a pushy horse who has figured out they can buffalo humans, or women, or children and we don’t do them any favors by reducing their sale-ability. They need manners and respect. They’ll be better for it in the long run, just like kids.
I missed the original video but a look at the one that Kalik posted is way beyond scary. WHAT is that child thinking of? Just that first frame of the horse rubbing its head on her hard, and her laughing, made me sit up straight with shock, and I am nothing like a competent horsewoman. But even I know that’s a serious no-no. Then it got worse.
She seems to ride well but, Jeepers, get her off the ground in front of that horse before it kills her.
Vixtia:
I agree with you that there is nothing wrong with clear, appropriate punishment that is proportionate to the offence.
HOWEVER, I think Cesar Millan is a misogynistic douchebag whose techniques fail the above standard for punishment. He encourages a completely black and white view of animal behaviour. He seems to suggest that ANY problem is caused by not being sufficiently ‘alpha’ to your dog, and I have seen this lead to people completely overpowering timid dogs, and to fear-agression on the part of the dog.
I’ve seen someone body-slam a 16 week old pup “Because it’s trying to be dominant and Cesar Millan says to do this”. It’s offence? It pulled on the lead because it wanted to meet another dog. Not only is that so far out of proportion it’s ridiculous, it’s also completely ineffective (unless the goal is to make the dog fear the owner) because the poor pup didn’t have a clue why it was being treated like that.
My horse is what I’d call ‘focus challenged’ *grin* in the sense that he must keep an eye on every single thing that happens around him. All the time. It can be difficult to keep his attention throughout a sequence of exercises because if someone walks past, if he hears another horse, if a cat plays in the grass next to the arena, he must look at all that too. He doesn’t shy or stop or anything, he just needs to see what’s going on. It’s part of his character, he is like that in his stall and in the fields as well. Is it a dominance issue? Some people would explain it that way, and probably punish.
I know that he can’t not do it, he’s not challenging me for leadership but simply giving in to his instincts, so I let him glance, then draw his attention back to me with a leg cue and an ‘oi, focus’ and move on. I could have a huge argument with him every time it happens and that would probably ruin most of my rides. Or I can just give him a mutter and a prod, and he’s with me again.
I imagine that if you have a fair amount of common sense and dog experience, some of Millan’s tactics might be helpful. You’ll have your own judgement about when your dog is actually challenging your leader status, and when it’s simply distracted, overstimulated, didn’t understand what you wanted, or is unable to burn off energy.
I don’t like Millan though because he makes things look good to inexperienced (or sense-lacking) dog owners and gives them a blanket-approach to ANY problem that comes up. Kind of like sending your child to bed without dinner for every offence from not putting their shoes away to trying to kill their sibling.
The one-approach-fits-all-problems doesn’t encourage people to learn to understand WHY their dog is behaving in a certain way. I guess it keeps dog trainers in business to fix all the problems stemming from that!
http://companionanimalsolutions.com/blogs/confrontational-behavior-modification-techniques-and-the-risk-to-owners/
I would recommend ‘nothing in life is free’ as a training method over Cesar Millan any day of the week.
Sorry for the long sidestep into dog training! Part of it overlaps with horse training though – punishing indiscriminately is just as bad (or worse?) than not punishing at all.
Okay, I watched the video again and take back the part of my earlier comment that says, “she seems to ride well.” Actually she stays on pretty well and steers some, but if the horse is overjumping, rushing the jumps, bucking when she objects to lead changes, and generally acting like a ninny, that is not good riding.
I don’t take back the part about how that horse is going to kill her.
This young lady seems quite deluded in a number of ways, including that she seems to think her horse is a *dog*! Did anyone else pick up on the showing-me-her-belly-means-she-trusts-me bit? I posted her a comment to the effect that while dogs roll over and expose their belly as a sign of submission, never had I heard that horses show trust that way. If they did, we’d have to say that two stallions fighting over some mares were actually “showing trust” in each other, since they reared and showed their bellies (meanwhile beating each other senseless)! I doubt she allowed the post, and now the video is private anyway. Hope she survives this mare’s “trust”!