Ten Questions
Aug 23 2009
I was just having this discussion with someone this weekend and I’m going to share it here.
It is the unusual horseperson who never considers breeding a horse of their own. Most of us, at some point, will own a mare that we think is just awesome, one that we would like to make more of. Or we will fall in love with a particular stallion and want a foal by him – but nothing that we see for sale out of his offspring fits the bill.
I’m never going to turn into a 100% anti-breeding radical. Someone does have to breed so that we continue to have and enjoy horses, and it helps nothing if all the responsible, knowledgeable people stop breeding and the bottom feeders with barbed wire paddocks behind their trailers keep popping out a dozen fugly grade foals a year. I’ve heard so much crap in the small animal world about how, if you breed, you’re taking a home away from a shelter pet. In most cases, nonsense. The person who is dead set on having a high quality Viszla, for example, is not going to truck down to the shelter and adopt a Chow-Shar Pei-Lab-Pit mix instead. The truth is, there’s always a market for a high quality, well bred, well conformed animal of any breed. The market that’s dead is the market for the Chow-Shar Pei-Lab-Pit puppies and the fugly ewe-necked, calf kneed, long backed Quarter Horses (even if they are gold! Really!) and the black kittens your barn cat had. There are almost no homes for these animals. Your chances of winning the lottery might be better.
So the first question: Is what you are planning to produce selling? REALLY? Are you SURE you have not seen it at your local auction? You can’t take your Uncle George’s word on this. You have to conduct your own serious market research, based upon the show records and pedigrees involved. Even if resale is not your goal, remember that life is unpredictable and it doesn’t make sense to bring a horse into the world that no one else will want. If I meet one more person who thinks a foal is marketable because it goes back to Man O’War, my head will explode. Plenty of descendants of Man O’War, Seattle Slew, Leo, Poco Bueno, Doc Bar, King, *Bask, Morafic, etc. go to kill every year. If you don’t have big name breeding close up, it’s pretty much irrelevant.
Second question: Are foals from the stallion you are considering currently winning in some kind of competitive discipline? I don’t care what it is – dressage, barrel racing, endurance, park horse, whatever – but are they? If you are considering a young, unproven stallion, is he currently winning in some kind of competitive discipline? There are plenty of opportunities to get the breeding you want at a reasonable price – check out stallion service auctions, for example.
Third question: Have you met the stallion in person? Does he look like his pics? Lots of people retouch! Does he have a nice disposition? “Because he’s a stallion,” is never an excuse for a snarly, nippy attitude. If you are in a high performance discipline like racing and are willing to put up with that attitude to get the performance (cough cough Storm Cat cough cough), well okay, but I’d still prefer that nasty mind didn’t breed on because it sabotages their chances of a good home and a second career after the track if they can’t run. Is there another stallion who is equally talented with a better mind that you can choose? And is the stallion sound? If not, why? Unsound after winning $600K on the track or an eventing career – well, fair enough. Unsound because he’s 1300 lbs. on size 00 feet? That should give you pause. Of course, totally sound after winning $600K on the track would be my first choice, but I don’t always hold these things against the horse because it has so much to do with management, how good the trainer and his staff were about care, etc. Bad management can F up the legs of the best conformed horse on earth.
Fourth question: What about your mare? If you are making the decision to breed because she is the most awesome show/barrel/endurance horse you’ve ever had and she wins everything, kudos! That is the kind of mare we want to make more of. If your decision is being motivated by any of the following, don’t do it:
1. Mare is lame and I don’t want her just sitting around (Particularly if mare is lame from something related to conformation like navicular – I have no issue with a mildly injured show mare being bred when she needs time off anyway. That makes sense.)
2. Mare is too crazy to ride. (Please hit yourself in the head for me if you want to breed her to settle her down or because you can’t do anything else with her because she is a wack job. REGUMATE!)
3. I want a BABY, they’re so KYOOT! (Please go to your local auction and take one off the killers’ hands for $25. Assuming you realize they’re not a stuffed animal and know that weanlings typically do naughty things 8.426 times per hour on average, including striking at you, kicking you, nipping you, etc. If you cannot discipline because it’s KYOOT, you will wind up like the people on It’s Me Or The Dog, except that what is running you over will be 1,000 lbs.)
4. I want my kid to have a horse she can grow up with! (I’d love to say I don’t still hear this incredibly moronic comment, but I still do. If you think this makes sense, I hope you know your way to the Emergency Room, because your kid is about to become a Frequent Flyer! Young horses and young kids are a terrible combination. You’re going to wind up with a hurt kid and a spoiled horse that you will then run to the auction because you don’t know how to fix it.)
Fifth question: What are your mare’s conformational flaws? Are you selecting a stallion who is strong in those areas? Is your mare free of serious conformational defects that interfere with soundness and use? A long back can easily be shortened by the right stallion. Pigeon toes or an upright shoulder, not so much. And the long-backed mare is not so bad if your goal is to produce a pleasure horse in any of the stock breed associations – but she shouldn’t be considered if your goal is dressage. If you can’t look critically at your mare because you love her too much, take her to a show (or a few shows) for halter class and ask the judge for their comments.
Sixth question: Genetic defects. Know which ones your mare may carry and do the appropriate testing if it’s not already done. Make sure you breed to a tested stallion. It is never okay to roll the dice and possibly produce a HYPP positive foal, a HERDA foal, a lethal white or anything else that can be tested for and prevented. Not to mention that you do not want your first breeding experience to result in a foal that dies within days!
Seventh question: What do you really want? Do you want a foal out of your fantastic performance mare, and not care what sex or color you get? Awesome, because you can only predict so much. Sure, you can breed to a cremello (if you can find one that doesn’t suck, good luck on that – I can maybe think of three decent ones off hand) and get a certain color but that’s about it for predictability. If it’s important to you to have a buckskin filly…buy one.
Eighth question: Can you afford all the associated vet work? Ultrasounds are a must – you have to know if your mare is carrying twins or some other problem exists. Can you deal with it (emotionally AND financially) if the result of all of this is a dead or permanently damaged mare and/or a dead foal and/or a foal that is never going to be rideable? All of these things can and do happen. It is heartbreaking to see someone lose a mare they loved just because they were trying to reproduce her. If she is super, super special to you, you might want to consider doing an embryo transfer to take the risk of foaling out of the equation. Let some older broodmare who has had several successful, complication-free deliveries do the “work.” And consider all the possibilities and have a plan in mind if things go bad – what will you do with a foal that is born with a disability or is injured before he reaches riding age?
Ninth question: If the object is resale and the baby does not sell as a baby, are you prepared for that? (a) Do you have safe and separate facilities for a weanling? Hot tape won’t hold a weanling who is screaming for mom, and you all know what I think of barbed wire. (b) Do you have the knowledge to train appropriately during all stages of life, or the financial resources to pay for training? (c) What about feeding and nutrition? What do you know about how to feed a foal? It’s not like feeding an adult horse. You can trash their legs permanently if you don’t know what you’re doing. (d) Can you afford another horse if he never sells?
Final question: Are foals like the one you contemplate consistently selling for at least $2000 – $2500 as weanlings? If you can find one out there for $500…don’t do it. Please, don’t do it. We have so many of those. We cannot find homes for them. They are $500. Then they are $300. Then they are at the auction. Everybody who goes to the auction is so damn tired of seeing your weanlings, yearlings, two year olds and unbroke adults selling for $175 to the kill buyer. And I know nobody planned for that outcome but it happens left and right. You are not immune from life’s bad luck. You could lose your job. You could get divorced. You could get cancer. You could get hit by a drunk driver and never be able to work again. Bottom line, it is flat out irresponsible to produce foals that are not reasonably high in value. The only real protection a horse has in this world is a high value. Please, please, please don’t create foals that don’t even have that much of a safety net in life.
Your comments? I will keep them anonymous if you want to talk about both good and bad breeding experiences, or which worked out and which didn’t. I’ll only tag a screen name on to them if you put that at the end of your comment.
The SAFE show was a huge success. I knew some of my former rescues were coming, but this one was a surprise. This is Maggie, who was featured on the blog when she was up for adoption in January 2008, after we pulled her out of a place where hoof care and mucking did not take place anywhere near as often as they are supposed to. She had terrible teeth and ulcers in her mouth. After her rehab, she found her perfect home with a young rider whose name I did not catch (will edit when I get it) and this was their first horse show together! Too cool.
Of course it was fun to see Petersburg Knight again, who went in the adult/significant other lead-line with his mom’s 90 year old grandmother! He looks fabulous as always. Prince Caspian, the Arabian I rode at the show last year, was there with his new owner. Sugar, a Paint ex-broodmare who was abandoned at a boarding stable this year with her colt, was out showing with a kid and loving it.
So many horses we’d originally seen as animal control seizures, with Henneke scores of 1 and 2, were out there looking ready for the big shows. One of the most amazing transformations is Cedar County Queen. This mare is huge (16.3), dark bay and super classy. Best of all, she’s not spooky or silly, nor does she require an experienced rider. She would be a fantastic dressage prospect for an amateur or youth with a trainer to help bring her along and the sky is the limit for her. She flunked out of track training and wasn’t ridden for 10 years, so at age 14, she has perfect legs and no issues.
If you are interested in Cedar, contact SAFE.
And if you run a rescue, please consider having your own local rescue-friendly show! It is not only a great fundraiser, but it serves many other purposes. (a) You get to check on some of your formerly adopted horses in an informal way, (b) It provides a great “starter” show for an inexperienced horse/rider combo, (c) It shows the world how many high quality horses are rescued and (d) It shows the world how long a horse can live a useful and productive life and how a 37 year old can look! Among other things, I showed 37 year old Sarge in Rescue Halter and Bribe Your Horse (we got 2nd out of 20 in BYH!)…he has 2 teeth left but as you can see, looks great. It can be done and is not even hard. Pretty sure you all have a hose to make mush!Comments on Friday are coming – I received a lot!
21 comments to “Ten Questions”
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Speaking of mares that shouldn’t be bred, is there anyone in Ontario who could help this one? Look at Midnight:
http://www.kimsequinesales.com/mustsell.htm
“She has had 9 foals in the past and is a good mother. She’s quite long in the pasterns which only makes her suitable as a broodmare or light trail riding horse.”
CanadianJumper;
Good god, basically every horse she owns shouldn’t be bred.
I can’t believe that mare has had nine foals. No wonder the poor thing is under-weight. I’m suprised that her fetlocks aren’t touching the ground.
It makes me sick to know she’s a fellow Canadian…
Great questions! Too bad we cannot require them to be stapled to the foreheads of anyone who wants to breed.
Susan
Re: Midnight. I pray to god she isn’t in foal to Jake. The poor foal will have no chance of having normal hind legs.
Susan
It’s just too bad that there are people in my neck of the woods that actually think those pictures are flattering and will cause a stampede of prospective buyers. I am, in a word, disgusted.
Great post! I am trying to find a stallion for my mare. She is a tiny bit down hill, and thats the only problem so whoever I pick I will make sure is perfect in that area. I will test her for ALL diseases. The stallion I was looking at was Big Chex to Cash. I just looked up one of the weanling colt who’s sale is pending for $10,000. I wouldn’t sell the foal, though, I want another Rein and another Big Chex wouldn’t hurt either. I might just go to an auction and buy a decent foal because I don’t won’t to risk Rein getting hurt. My mother and I would really need to read up on breeding. Rein and I were this close to getting Champion in our division, but Rein refused. But in one division we beat a well known horse owner and stadium jumping trainer and I am only 13.
Currently dealing with the ” it has a uterus, so must be bred” mentality. Recently purchased a lovely TWH mare by Heritage Society certified ” Bud’s Sterling Bullet”. Still pinching myself to ensure this is not a dream, she is everything I want in a horse. Unfortunately, the rednecks who owned her bred her to a grade gaited stud they own. Supposedly “Pusher” bred. Nice young horse, in with geldings with mares across the fence, no drama or mayhem. Would be an awesome gelding. So now, I’am just doing damage control! Ensuring the mare has proper prenatal care, getting her feet straightened out, and have put about 50 lbs on her in a little over two weeks. Will do my best to register the foal in any gaited registry that will improve its desirabiliy, and at least it will be gaited. Have nothing against a good “using type” grade horse, but these folks are selling their stock for pennys cos they bred everyone last year, there is no market, and have too many. This year, what did they do? Bred everyone again! All are grade, the mare I bought is the only registered horse they had. Just say a little prayer for a colt, so I can make sure the gelding bus puts a stop to this. Redneck101
“I’ve heard so much crap in the small animal world about how, if you breed, you’re taking a home away from a shelter pet. In most cases, nonsense.”
Just wanted to comment on this, as I’m still exasperated with the ‘rescue’ people who complained that Obama didn’t get a shelter dog. All my dogs have been shelter dogs but I don’t mind the purebreds. What I mind are the mass producers – the puppy mills and the commercial kennels like the one where Biden got his dog in 2008. Now THAT was a terrible thing, and the majority of rescue people seemed to simply not get it. Someone wants a purebred? Fine. I want a purebred someday too, just because one of my shelter dogs was a purebred I’d like to own again, and they’re not too common.
One caveat: I don’t like the attitude that people NEED a purebred, though. I don’t mean the allergy issue, but the whole “Oh, I want to be as safe as possible because I have CHILDREN” attitude. I don’t think 99% of people need a purebred puppy who is 9 weeks old, specially bred to be gentle, chosen by an expert to be the most family-friendly specimen of the litter, etc. If you have some patience and the sense and strength to resist the obvious problems (the pit bulls, the rottie mixes, the lab-that-looks-like-a-pit, the spaniel mix whose eyes are all whites, the rat terrier shaking in the corner) it is simple to find a perfectly nice family dog at a shelter. The gentlest dog I’ve ever known, one who wouldn’t even bite when a retarded child crawled under a couch to reach her hiding place and poke her with a stick, was chosen at a shelter by a family who’d never had a dog. It can be done. You just have to have a little common sense. Most dogs will 100% tell you who they are in a shelter – the neurotics are spinning, the nasties are eye-f’ing, the shy are shaking, the aloof are ignoring you, and the good family dogs are smearing themselves along the wire and pleading at you shamelessly, smiling and licking and being utterly, openly loving. It’s not rocket science to figure out who’s who.
What a great post!
Value of the offspring, WHY don’t people think about that???
My boys were 2yo colts when I first viewed them, I asked if they could be gelded there when they had a few others done and was told that as geldings they would cost $200 each.
I priced gelding with my vet who quoted me around $220 each.
My beautiful boys are stud bred but unpapered. (still annoyed about that) But what was the point of breeding them? And if a stud bred horse goes that cheap, what are BYB thinking??? I guess they’re not and that’s the problem.
I regularly see young unbroken horses being given away “Because we don’t have room/feed for this horse and the new foal/s” Ah, did you think if you were short of room/feed maybe NOT BREEDING MORE HORSES would be a good idea?
Apparently not
I used to think I’d love to run my own stud and breed my own horses. Now I think I’ll be sticking to rescue/rehab/retraining and iron clad contracts to protect the horses.
As for the fugly mare CanadianJumper found, what a pity mare spaying isn’t as cheap and easy as gelding. Would save so many fugly foals from ever being born.
Considered breeding my TB mare who was successful on the track and came away sound at the age of 9. She has great bones and is smooth under saddle. Con: she’s a basket case (off the track for several years and still a little nutty) and I don’t want foals with no brain! But boy do I love her bones. ^-^
And that is exactly why when I get a horse, it will be an older one who I most likely won’t screw up… and it won’t be breed ever. Babies are KYOOT, but I don’t want my own (in animal OR human form) for a very long time thanks. There are plenty of KYOOT adults that need some love
Speaking of cute adults; omgoodness I think I am in love with Cedar! I love big, tall, dark horses and she is beautiful… I wish I lived closer and I had a place to keep her, I’d take her for sure
I am usually a “lurker” but just wanted to chime in.
IF I had a mare that I wanted to breed, I would have to consider all those questions and more.
Too bad some of the fugly breeders of all species out there do not think about it.
Yes I have taken my meds LOLOL
ummm whats stud bred? havent heard that one before…?
stud horse has proven himself in the show ring. Mare is well bred and unbroke (I didnt get her until she was 9) we jumped on her one day just for fun…she didnt even move. so yep, I will breed her next spring, hopefully the foal turns out and I will be able to show it when its old enough and trained enough. then, I might repeat that breeding.
I do have a stud horse, and a mare, and yep I am going to breed them next spring
would I breed them had neither one accomplished anything or were bad examples of the breed? hell no. some people never get that…
The questions about breeding are great. They all are important, but for me as a novice breeder the main question to consider was temperament and rideability of both parents.
I have a small barn. No big name. So no hopes that my horse will attract a big names looking for next Olympic winners. Right? So I was thinking very realistically about my future buyer. The answer is – a hobby rider who wants a good hobby horse. For a hobby rider is not so important if horse is over 5 ft jumping prospect. Hobby rider wants an healthy, easy, sweet, obedient, non spooky horse who will safely and calmly do 3 ft fences at local shows and earn ribbons. So when I was looking for a suitable stallion (registered, with breeding certificate, that’s mandatory here anyway), my main question was – temperament and rideability. My mare is a former showjumper, had good results, now retired, has good conformation scores, easy to ride and all in all is a super sweet bombproof horse for a beginner.
Fancy color maybe helps, but color is the last thing for me when I think about breeding.
So far I’m really happy about our first foal, and we are teaching the baby the good manners already. So far seems that we shall be able to prepare her in a right way for the trainer when the time comes. (And the main thing – the foal is not planned for sale at the first place, but still – you never know (I’m not so young as I would like to be), what can happen, and if I will need sell, at least I know that I will be able to sell as there is always a market for calm, sweet and well trained hobby horse).
I worked my way through the questions in relation to the foal I bred this year.
All come out on the positive side except the price. Had Jethro been born when the mare went to stud he would have been priced at well over the $2,000 level or a filly more than double however foal prices here have dropped significantly and he would probably fetch less than his production cost if I had to sell him in a hurry.
I have turned down an offer af around $3000 ( converted from sterling) for him as he is not for sale. The email I sent announcing his birth was along the lines of;-
“Meet Jethro -the dice landed wrong and he is a colt not the filly I had ordered but he’s beautifully put together and he’ll do. You’d have thought that with frame, cream and agouti at least one of them would have landed too and a 1 in 16 chance gave a sorrel colt with no white but a I’ll settle for healthy and well conformed. His gelding appointment is booked”
I see fields of nondescript mares with scraggy foals all around, They are not selling but the mares are in foal again. I have been asked to breed my mare again but she is being brought back into work.
But don’t forget about http://www.Petfinder.com , there’s plenty of breed specific rescues if you want a purebred dog. There’s probably as many purebreds without homes as mutts.
“5minpins says:
ummm whats stud bred? havent heard that one before…?”
Sorry, I shall explain. They come from a proper registered studfarm. They have bred multiple Australian champions there, in halter and performance.
That’s why I was astounded that even after gelding my boys were only $200. That would barely cover gelding them, let alone the costs of their care and feeding to 2yo. Also, if that’s all a well bred young horse or pony is worth here at the moment, no wonder people are giving away or sending to auction their “bred because she can, to whoever is available” foals and young stock.
Sadly some people just aren’t leaning, found this in a “Horse for sale” add the other day:
“Horses for sale, mixed breeds, some draft X, breeding 125 foals this spring, all colours, all sizes.”
After 40 years of horse ownership and showing, this year I am buying a weanling for the first time. Finally ready to put my money where my mouth (!) is and start one the way I’ve always thought it should be done. Lots of cheap fuglies out there–lots of nice babies out of my price range too. I feel like the responsible breeders who sell your basic, grow up to be a nice open show all arounder, have cut waay back on breeding. Makes perfect sense in this economy–just makes a tougher search.
Reading your articles I can understand where you’re coming from, since I’ve been on the rescuing side. My only issue is the “breeding poor quality horses.” Now, a lot of the horses/farms you’ve posted on here I agree with – they SHOULD NOT breed. But why is it so important that a horse be worth $2-3k as weanlings? I know there’s no way in HELL I could afford to buy a $3000 yearling, and I’m not by any means “in the poor house.” We breed paints and our stud isn’t broke and has no show record, but that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t breed. He has exceptional bloodlines, with horses such as Doc Bar and Hank-A-Chief as grandfather’s. And the mares we breed to are not only 95% foundation, but they have exceptional dispositions and confirmation. But most of them were bought as range mares, and since have been worked with on the ground but they don’t ride. Just because a mare or stud hasn’t earned a ROM or has a gazillion points in some discipline or another DOESN’T mean they should be completely out of the breeding circle. Like I said, even weanlings that ARE for sale for $500 can grow up to be perfectly wonderful horses. If we can’t afford to ensure our horses go to good homes, I agree, we should quit breeding. But there’s nothing wrong with the horses we breed, and if it’s only because they have no outstanding show record, that’s a little closed-minded.
Not everyone can afford to pay $3000 for a well broke ADULT horse, much less a WEANLING. Not in this economy, and not even when the economy wasn’t in the shitter. I agree with most of what you say, but if I have a trail-broke-only, no show record AQHA mare and decide to breed it to a trail-broke-only, no show-record AQHA stud, there should be no one telling me I’m creating just another horse that’s going to end up in slaughter, or that the resulting foal is going to be worthless JUST because its parents haven’t shown. To me, that’s a bit ridiculous.
Otherwise, nice blog – some very interesting points. And no one take offense, please, for that is not my point – my point is only that horses with no show record but that are registered and have the disposition and confirmation to breed, should be able to without criticism.
Here’s question 11.
Has your mare been examined by a reproductive vet? Please, please get any mare you intend to breed thoroughly checked out. Ideally by a specialist. Is her birth canal wide enough? Does she have enough space in there for a foal? Are her ovaries in good condition and free of cysts?
Checking all this before you breed can save you the heartbreak of a dead mare and foal later. Breeding is risky anyway, but…
I actually wanted to breed my mare at one point, but I didn’t.
I didn’t want to sell the foal, I wanted to keep it. I have a place where it could be kept, and my mother has had experience with foaling down. BUT my mare is grade, as much as I love her and would dearly have liked a foal from her, she’s used for trail riding, I know that back in the day she could definately have been great in cutting, but she’s seventeen now, and I’ve never competed in cutting anyway. As much as I would like to have one of her foals, I know that breeding her is not what is in her best interest or any other horses for that matter. Or mine. I could pay for it, and I know that her foal would be a real sweet heart, and her only main confo fault is that she has a high wither, but if I breed her, then I won’t have room to keep rescuing (I rescue one at a time, I haven’t been doing it for long, and I think that way I can spend more time with the one horse, my time won’t be divided by 5 sick horses and I don’t have the room for more than 3-4 horses to be comfortable). Even if I did decide to stop rescuing, I wouldn’t do it for a few reasons, one being that I don’t want to stop riding her for a long length of time. I don’t want the hassle and I don’t think it’s in her interests.
I agree completely that most people won’t trade what they want for something that is worse or unsuitable. I just don’t think that my mare needs to be bred. It’s a moral thing for me. My mare isn’t registered, and has no show record. That’s about the only thing that she doesn’t have, but that’s enough to stop me.