I’LL tell you what horseanality you’ve got there: Spotted Shithead!
May 27 2008
A Q & A from that moron Pat Parelli’s newsletter…
QUESTION
I have an Appaloosa who is nine years old and I bought him last November. Within a week or so he bit me, and really meant it, on my side which left huge bruising. I was shocked as I was undoing the chest strap on his rug that came with him. I had noticed in the first week that he would pin his ears back and turn his head towards me. I was quite aware of this and became cautious around him. When he bit me, I did not react and had to go away and suffer in pain for a while. I came back and did approach and retreat but he still would pin his ears back. I researched his previous owners and found out he had bitten the previous owner twice around feed time or when doing the girth up but other owners said they had no problems with him. The other day I was with an instructor and told her my main fear was his biting and other than that he was great to ride and do ground skills with. We did approach and retreat with the saddle on and off and then he swung around to bite me, I blocked him, tripped over my own feet or his and fell to the ground. I was told there was too much energy for him to cope with. I am now so scared to do anything with him because of this biting. I get my husband to hold him while I do up the saddle. This is not the best way but for me it is safe. Can you help me figure out what he is feeling so I can deal with it so we can both get through this safely and I can hopefully regain my confidence? -Kim
ANSWER
Have you done a Horsenality Profile on your horse yet? He sounds to me as if he is a LB Extrovert / Introvert combo. These are most likely to become aggressive because it is their nature to dominate. You need to be accepted as his leader, which you will do via the Seven Games, but you have to ‘win’ them. In essence this means you have to win the position of alpha where your horse accepts your leadership. If you are not a confident person, but your horse is overconfident, this is not an easy task, however there are a couple of things on your side.
If your horse turns out to be LB Introvert and Extrovert, or just Introvert, treats work like a charm. Some people think that this encourages the behavior but it does the opposite. Think about someone who is trying to win your favor… they bring you chocolates and flowers and gifts! Pretty soon it’s hard not to like them!! The same thing happens with this kind of horse, but note that treats alone do not work. You have to also play the Seven Games with him so you can actually get him to do something… and then reward him. Don’t just give him treats for no reason.
Now, when it comes to the Seven Games, the most important ones for this kind of horse are going to be backing and driving the forehand away from you, but they will also be the most challenging because dominant horses do not allow this… they do it to others! I would practice your technique and learn how to be really soft and get really firm with wiggling the rope and not moving your feet. Every time you move your feet when trying to back him, this horse sees it as weakness and his opportunity to have the upper hoof again. Also, do it from behind a fence or a barrier that he cannot cross. This will keep you safe if he decides to push on you, and it will do a lot for your confidence. Once you can consistently back him up with light pressure you’ll feel safer to be on the same side as him. Same thing with driving his front end away. You need to get to where you can do this easily and convincingly. Most people overdo HQ yields / disengagement, and this w ill get you in trouble with the LB horse because it brings the front end to you!
Biting is how LB horses dominate others, and that’s what he’s doing to you. You just have to be better than he is at those driving games because that is the only way he will respect you! If your instructor is Parelli Certified, please tell them to get in touch with us and we can personally coach them to coach you if necessary.
Oh, and on the saddling issue… give him a great big carrot when he swings around to nip you! He’ll be so surprised that after several instances his whole opinion of saddling will change and you’ll only have to do it now and then. You may even have to play some driving games with him before saddling to make sure he accepts your doing something to him. Again, that’s something dominant horses do to others, they don’t like things being done to them. But once they are submissive to your leadership, they are quite happy to comply. You just have to maintain that position and not let it slip.
FHOTD Back In: OMG! OMG! HOLY SHIT! YOU DID NOT JUST SUGGEST GIVING TREATS TO A BITER!
Yes. Yes, you did. My brain is bleeding.
Just for comparison’s sake, I’d like to provide MY answer to Kim’s question. Maybe she will read this…and survive to her next birthday…and actually get to enjoy her horse!
FHOTD ANSWER: Kim, you’ve got an Appy. And while Appies have many fine qualities including hooves like iron, endurance, and the ability to perform well in a wide variety of events – they are also known for what we call AppyTude. In short, your horse would like to be the boss. He is highly amused by his ability to bite you and make you run away. This is a game he can play all day and never get bored!
The reason this behavior is escalating is that you haven’t done a thing to correct it. He nailed you good, and you ran away. He nailed you again, same result. Awesome! Apparently YOU are really EASY to train.
We don’t “approach and retreat” with an aggressive horse. We goddamn APPROACH, ANY TIME WE WANT, for as LONG AS WE WANT, and we do WHAT WE WANT. The first time your Appy swung his head at me with his ears pinned, I would have swung my fist at his nose and made my best loud growling noise. I probably wouldn’t have needed to make contact. He would have figured out really quickly I wasn’t backing down, and he would have backed down. Sure, I would still have to pay attention and watch for another strike, but he would have learned very quickly it wasn’t going to fly with me. My guess is that the previous owner who did not have problems with him established it wasn’t going to fly with them, either – probably on the first day. Why don’t you see if they will come out and show you how they handled him? I bet they can show you what works in one easy lesson.
You tripped over your own feet because you were running away. That doesn’t happen when you stand your ground.
I would NEVER hand-feed treats to a biter. If he has been good, you can put carrots in his grain. Hand feeding any treats is just going to escalate the nippy behavior – he won’t just nip when you’re cinching him, he’ll nip all the time. Won’t THAT be fun?
Horses are, intrinsically, wimps. You may find it hard to believe but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve blocked a galloping loose horse, and made him stop, by holding my arms wide, stepping aggressively at him, and saying HO in my sternest voice. That shouldn’t work. I should get my ass run over. It works because a horse is basically a wimpy prey animal. All you have to do, Kim, is make this horse believe that he is going to die if he ever bites you again. You can do it and it has nothing to do with seven games, yielding his hindquarters or backing up.
By the way, if anybody has tried to tell you that actually popping a biter in the nose when he swings around to bite you will make him headshy…they are full of it. No, it will not. Beating a horse in the head for no reason, or earing him to control him – those are the things that make a horse headshy. Popping him in the nose as he’s trying to bite is a clear response to his action that he will have NO trouble understanding.
Now, one thing I would do is get him adjusted by the chiropractor and make sure he is not in pain when you’re girthing him up. Have the chiro check your saddle fit, etc. While biting is not acceptable EVEN IF the horse is in pain, you certainly don’t want your horse to be uncomfortable – so rule out any physical problems ASAP.
Kim, get yourself a non-Parelli instructor before you get hurt, and before your horse has become so spoiled he’s going to wind up in a kill pen. He sounds like a nice horse with one, extremely fixable issue. Stop listening to the snake oil salesman and just fix the problem so you can enjoy your horse!
P.S. “Think about someone who is trying to win your favor… they bring you chocolates and flowers and gifts! Pretty soon it’s hard not to like them!!” Man, he doesn’t know anything more about women than he does horses! Does this guy ever get laid? I’m thinking not…
12 comments to “I’LL tell you what horseanality you’ve got there: Spotted Shithead!”
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Wow, are you serious? Is that how you would handle an aggressive horse FOHTD? And is this how you really respond to people? You wouldn’t last one second with my warmblood
I promise you that. And I seriously think you need to work on your people skills!
When I got my warmblood he was a labeled biter, kicker, man hater and was said to be vicious, dangerous and unpredictable. He would charge with ears back, teeth bared while in a stall and would have to wear a metal muzzle each time he came out into the hallway so he couldn’t bite anyone. He was going to be put down if no one wanted him. I will have had him for 2 years in March and I’ve done nothing but Parelli with him and all of his aggressive behavior has completely dissapeared. I have followed the advice Linda gave along with some other techniques I have learned. And I’m still alive
Oh, and on your comment about Appys having attitude…the horse I had before my warmblood was an appy and he didn’t have attitude. He was a fabulous horse. Horses have attitudes when they don’t like the person or the person isn’t being a good enough leader….not because it’s an innate characteristic.
With an aggressive (plus dominant) horse the last thing you want to do is be aggressive back….these horses will fight you and you will not win. Ever. These horses refuse to have people take away their dignity and they will do whatever it takes to get the person to back off. Again, my warmblood was a perfect example. These horses DO NOT respect people who act like predators. Nor do they trust them. Smacking horses doesn’t work anyway, it’s a predatory response from the human and that’s all the horse sees….a predator who can’t be trusted. We have to get to the ROOT of the issue, not just smack or punch the horse for a behavior that could have been prevented in the first place. There is a REASON the horse is biting, he’s trying to communicate something to the human.
I hand feed my warmblood treats all the time, and he had a tendency to bite when I got him, but did it cause a problem? Nope. Why? Because I had the respect, he saw me as a worthy leader. If the horse TRULY respects and trusts his owner he will not bite. Horses don’t bite the alpha. With these horses they expect us to act aggressive, that’s why they act aggressive in return….so when we interrupt that pattern with a treat, it blows their mind! It’s the last thing the horse expected and it DOES change their opinion of us. We HAVE to interrupt that pattern in a way that causes the horse to think, “Now, why was I feeling aggressive?” If we don’t give the horse a reason to be aggressive, then he won’t be. If we are rude, aggressive, unobservant, not caring, goal oriented, etc. then he has every right to up his game in order to get us to listen. If we get bit, it’s OUR fault, NOT THE HORSE’S.
Horses are wimps? LOL you haven’t met my warmblood. He’s so dang confident. Sure, all horses get scared, but that doesn’t make them wimps. If you go around thinking ALL horses are wimps you are going to get seriously hurt. It just takes that one horse to prove you wrong. Just remember that.
Making the horse feel like he’s going to die? How does that build trust and respect? It doesn’t. Why would a prey animal trust or respect someone who made him feel like his life is about to end? This is a predatory mindset and to be a HORSEMAN we have to think like a horse and understand his behavior….using predatory thinking with an animal who thinks in a prey animal mindset is NOT being a horseman
That’s being a mediocre horse person.
I do agree on getting him checked for pain. That should be the first thing. However, if you are in pain, would you want me to smack you each time you protested to something I was doing? No. It’s the same with horses. They have to communicate with us in some way, and biting is one form of communication when we didn’t listen to their more subtle warnings. If you haul out and hit him when he gives you feedback his thought process will be “You don’t care what I think” and that will NOT build a good relationship. But do you even care about building a relationship with a horse?
I’m sure you have never tried Parelli, so it’s ridiculous for you to slam and criticize something you obviously don’t understand or have experience with. Just because something sounds crazy to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. Perhaps try to be more open minded about things. My advice to Kim is to take Linda’s advice, study the Parelli program in depth and if possible take a clinc with a Parelli Instructor. This issue CAN be fixed in a way that the horse will respect but in a non-predatory way. I know, I’ve been there, done that….I’ve used the smack’em-on-the-nose-when-they-bite technique pre-Parelli and guess what, it didn’t work. I’ve been on “both sides of the fence” so to speak and my horse’s and I choose Parelli
Actually, it’s you that clearly doesn’t understand. If a horse bites you or goes to bite you and you give them a carrot you are positively reinforcing their behavior. Since you must not know anything about psychology, this means that by rewarding them, you increase said behavior. Likewise, if you retreat from an aggressive horse, you are reinforcing their aggression because they are getting what they wanted. There are positives to a variety of training methods but the fact of the matter is the Parelli camp isn’t telling you the whole story. Yes, patience, love, and kindness are all necessary. But what the Parellis’ preach isn’t effective at gaining the horse’s respect. In fact, I think the majority of the horses find humor in the idiocy of their owner’s behavior
well said Aramis05.
FHOTD, all I can say is that this is the most ridiculous site I have ever come across. It makes me sad to think there are idiots like you in the world. I feel bad for any and all horses that are unfortunate enough to cross paths with you..
Aramis05,
I think you’re anthropomorphizing just a bit there with the “Why am I feeling so aggressive?” line. Horses don’t think in a manner that humans do; we may think “why am I so angry?” A horse will think in terms of “bite”. Horses are prey animals with short-term memories and no real logical thinking area of their brain. If horses were this smart no horseman would have to tell their friends about the scary shadow monster who crept up and tried to eat their horse.
I will agree with you in the fact, as I’m sure even Fugly would as well, that beating the everlasting hell out of a horse for a minor irritation will make it nasty and fearful. But one has to remember that the horse herd dynamics call for the occasional fight match, and horses will come to you with the idea of “I am the alpha, I can bite and kick, and there’s really nothing you can do about it.” Sometimes these types of horses need the smack on the face to make them realize that “Hm, maybe that short little two-legged thing can fight with me…maybe I shouldn’t try to kick it.”
Keep up the good work Fugly, you’re just sayin’ what we’ve all been thinking.
I’m a newbie to this blog thing. Nope, never blogged in my life. I was told about FHOTD by a friend and have been hooked ever since. I live in Wyoming and have seen some of the most backward disgusting horse-keeping/breeding practices out there. I have to say, the Parelli methods are simply a money making scheme thought up to weasel money out of basically good people just wanting to do better with their horses. My “cowboy/rancher” Dad fell for it. He felt it was a better way than his Dad’s colt busting, bronc turned saddle horse ways. He is now the proud owner of several nasty spoiled horses that mule kick and bite whenever the mood strikes. I busted his most famous kicker over the butt with a short piece of two by four after he nearly kicked my head off. I was prepared and had carried that wood in with me when I went to feed. Old red has since never turned his rump to me, I CAN walk right up to him and scratch his neck, and he is NOT afraid of me. I startled him and hurt him a bit in the process but he has not kicked at a person since. My Dad has learned new kinder methods but has discovered the Parelli methods were bullshit.
I know this is an old post, but I just recently discovered FHOD and agree 100% with the stance on Parelli methods. A HORSE THAT BITES OR KICKS HUMANS IS DANGEROUS and this behavior must be dealt with. Smacking a horse who just bit you is not PREDATORY, it is reactive. If one horse bites another out in the field, what is the reaction? The horse that was bit will often bite or kick back. Aramis05, in one breath you scream that smacking a horse that has just bit you is predatory, wrong, etc., but in the next statement, you say you want to be your horse’s “leader” and the ‘alpha’ of your horse’s herd. Guess what? The alpha horse in a field is going to bite or kick back at a horse that challenges him or her! So if you ask me, I am being far more ‘alpha mare’ when I smack a horse that has just bit me than you, who suggest moving away and cowering on the other side of a barrier, or even rewarding a horse through food for being aggressive towards you. Yeah, that’s alpha behavior.
You are applying human psychology to horses. Parelli methods make sense to you, because you are thinking like a human. I know it makes you feel better and is all rainbows in your mind, but horses do not have complex thoughts the way humans do. Parelli was designed by humans so even if it made sense to us (which it doesn’t) the chances that it is transferrable to horses is nil. I know I won’t change your mind and you can’t change mine, and I AM open to new things. For instance, I have changed my mind about horse slaughter since reading FHOD, and I love to read, watch, and explore everything I can about horses to make me a better rider and owner. What I don’t like is the fierce ‘religiosity’ of Parelli followers. Aramis05, you clearly do not want to accept that other methods can be as effective as yours. While I entertain the idea that your games and whatever could be effective and would love to see a Parelli horse as well-mannered as mine is (I’ll let you know when I find one) you just shut down–and, frankly, insulted–anyone who doesn’t practice Parelli. At least, that is how I felt after I read your post.
Little late to the party, but the two up top, I know you have your opinions. Congrats, I won’t bash you for that.
But really, I couldn’t undertand your post, and also, although I am not completely opposed to Parelli, I can furshure see the many faults with it.
Third, I’m assuming the very top was advocating not wacking a horse when they bite you, *snicker* all horses are different, but most horses need a good pop in the jaw if you want them to quit. My APPY is girthy, tries to nip/ bite, ect… Lmao, give him a nice little large wack on the nose, and he backs off.
One last thing, the very top said “make the horse feel like he’s going to die.” Excuse me my dear, but I am rather fond of my digits and I’m pretty sure my hard skinned horse can take a good wack if he’s trying to remove one of them. He’s smart, that’s the catch with appies, he knows how to avoid work. I have no issue re-instituting my dear little power reign over him. ;]
It really isn’t hard to teach a horse they should NOT do something… I hate hate hate it when people baby their horses too much and won’t lay a finger on them to punish them. It’s like those children who are always screaming and yelling and being annoying because their parents don’t do anything to discipline them. Meanwhile, you have the children who stand quietly by their parent, are polite and easy to deal with because their parents punished them if they were bad!
I ride at my old instructor’s house during the week on Savannah, an Appendix mare who is sweet as pie and at the bottom of the hierarchy in a three-horse herd. We ride in her squared arena. Around the outside of the arena is the field the horses are kept in (the arena acts as their shelter when out to pasture) and Willie – a gelding with bad manners, though he’s getting much better BECAUSE WE’RE DISCIPLINING HIM – and Micki, his mother were out in the field, grazing. Well, Willie likes to pick on Savannah, and every time we’d ride past him, he’d reach over the gate and bite at her. I’d slap at his nose when he did this, but never made contact. He’d flinch away, but kept doing it. So I slapped his nose, making contact, he stopped for a bit, then started up again. So I took my jumping crop and when he lunged toward Savannah again I slapped him over the nose with it. It certainly made him turn tail and run to mama and he hasn’t done it since. He is not head shy at all, his face was unwounded. Sometimes just making a threatening motion toward them works, but if they’re not responding, you need to up the anty a bit! There is no sense in dong something if the horse is obviously just brushing it off! Not only was he being rude, but the only time I have ever seen Savannah buck is when someone lands on her neck over a jump, or if Willie starts going after her. And she doesn’t just do little warning bucks, she goes full out bronc and if he actually managed to bite her, my safety would be at risk.
These Parelli people doesn’t seem to understand that horses are 1000 lb animals that can and will hurt you when they’re scared, angry, undisciplined, ect – they aren’t little kids that saying ‘no no’ is going to make them think about what they’ve done.
I guess I missed this entry. Lmao at LP and her idiocy
[...] of the Parelli stuff I had to comment on. I mean, how can you beat the Parellis telling someone to feed carrots to their biting horse? The only thing that isn’t funny about it is that, for example, a horse showed up in the [...]
I’ve read through all of these comments, and I figured I might as well throw my 2 cents in.
I won’t discount any method of training horses. I try to keep my mind open and not pass judgement on something I haven’t tried. But feeding a carrot to a biting horse sounds like the most counter-productive thing in the world. I have experience training dogs, and I’ve found a lot of similarities between dogs and horses. If someone tried to feed a treat to a dog right before the dog bit, it would think “Gee, thanks!” snatch the treat, and then continue with the bite. I believe that it would be the same with horses. We have to remember that horses are not going to take a minute and think about why they were offered a carrot. They lack the capacity, and, quite honestly, it’s a stupid idea. I’m not saying everything the Parellis do is stupid, I’m saying that this “advice” is nonsensical and dangerous.
I was bitten by a yearling colt just a few weeks ago. I wasn’t paying attention to where I put my hand while holding his halter, and he bit me. Not hard, but enough to leave a little mark. In response, I smacked him on the nose and growled at him. Guess what? I haven’t been bitten since, and he has been much more respectful in other areas of our relationship. Do I recommend punching horses in the face every time they do something we don’t want? Of course not. But I believe that my response was appropriate in terms of what my colt did. He is not head shy, he is not afraid of clippers, he doesn’t run scared every time I approach his pen. The only real result of that incident is that he respects me more, and as a result, is more fun to be around.
So what’s the point of all this?
There are good and bad sides to all training. Some ideas work, and some don’t. Based on personal experience, I believe that what the Parellis have prescribed here would not work and would, in fact, lead to a more dangerous horse.
colt m4…
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