The more things change, the more they stay the same
Dec 10 2007
Excuses, excuses! Every breeder of crappy, unmarketable stock is chock full of excuses and rationalizations. It’s a bad hay year. The pasture wasn’t any good. I lost my job. I got divorced. There are a million reasons their young stock look like shit, and none, amazingly, have to do with the fact that the sire and dam are nothing special, either! Here’s today’s excuse:
Yeah, okay, sunshine. Sorry, but the fact is, I’ve seen you in action for years. You have a dinky little chubbo of a stallion who was produced by breeding your dinky little 14.3 mare that I used to see you bop around on at the open shows 20 years ago. We couldn’t damn well miss you – you were like that person who comes to the party dressed all wrong. I still remember some of your show clothes. It was like Halloween came every weekend!
And WHY do you have tons of pictures of mixed breed kittens all over your web site? Hey, Miss “Certified Equine Specialist” – is “spaying” too complicated a concept to grasp?
Apparently she has, like, seven judges’ cards now. And we wonder why the industry is so effed up.
Yes, everybody here you go. Certified Equine Specialist. Level 3 Richard Shrake trainer. The future of our industry. My brain is bleeding.
365 comments to “The more things change, the more they stay the same”
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Forthefuture summed it up quite well: “He is 15 years old, has sired 121 AQHA foals, with 9 performers.”
That is a breeding success rate of, what? 13%?
As has been discussed multiple times here, no, showing isn’t the ONLY reason to breed and isn’t the ONLY hallmark of a successful stallion. HOWEVER, when you are marketing your stallion as a successful show horse (and presumably sire of successful show horses), perhaps you should aim higher than a 13% success rate……not breeding to crap mares is probably a step in the right direction? Just a thought…..
BTW: Fall Tattersall’s sale and the Congress Super Sale saw a lot of no-sales or low prices on NICE horses…..well broke, attractive stock with AQHA points, out of mares with AQHA points, and by some of the top stallions in the industry. Troubling times for even top breeders, no?
Hey Fugs, I’m wondering if “breedingchampions” and “Steve” might be from the same IP address? Like it’s the same person trying to support our heroine Karen, since they said virtually the same thing?! I saw the side view of the stud–he’s got a decent front and rear, nice head, but his back alone would negate any stallion quality. I don’t care what he’s won. I showed dogs for years (conformation and obedience) and I know how political showing is, and my minimal experience showing horses told me that it’s just as political in the horse world.
And BTW, that link to REAL Natural Horsemanship is a scream!!
Ok, I’ve been and looked at the site, checked out the critters, looked at the for sale page (empty) and I’m not sure at all why this site qualifies for the FHOTD.
She has tried to show and promote her stallion, yes, she may not have the best of mare, but those foals look better than most, and are better taken care of than most BYB.
No, I don’t agree with the girl hugging her studs leg, and I didn’t find kittens all over the site (maybe she removed them?)
Religious comments are irrelevant. I skip over them.. there are just as many dip sh*t owners that breed crap to crap on either side of that fence, and so I dont’ think it is a point worth making.
So… FuglyHorseOfTheDay… I’d ask you to find a better example for next time, the poor donkey is a MUCH better target than this lady is… You may not agree with her, but I don’t think she is a good example of the BYB that you REALLY want to put out of business…
As far as the palomino mares hip… sometimes wierd spots happen on them. just a freak thing, not a big deal. I dont’ think you should judge the colt based on that one picture.
So Please, Fugly, find a more worth target, they are out there, just be patient.
Wow- I’m impressed how low people can stoop. Only looking at what he’s produced AQHA wise – big deal. There were lots of other breeds that came in when I was there, and while there may have been ugly ones, there were also good ones. Just because someone doesn’t show, doesn’t make their horse bad. And how can you judge that there was only 13% that supposedly showed – big deal. Are you saying that a trail riding, cow horse, roping horse, dressage horse, endurance horse – they are not as good as a show horse!!
And $20,000 as a yearling is hardly a dime a dozen. Get real people!
And since when is a grass field a founder field – duh – didn’t see any alfalfa in the field, and no horse ever foundered when I was there.
So what – he’s 15 years old and has lost some of his top line – big deal!
I guess the thing that really annoys me is that people are willing to cut down AQHA Judge Robert Milkie, and think they know more than him. He is a very well respected judge.
Sorry, but I don’t know the Steve or Karen who are writing here. I actually called Karen, I was so fed up with all the jealousy, and she said she would not go on the site – she’s too busy taking phone calls and e-mails from people wanting to breed to Beau since seeing this. She wanted me to pass on, to thank whooever started all of this – it has caused quite an increase in traffic at her place.
>>You may not agree with her, but I don’t think she is a good example of the BYB that you REALLY want to put out of business… < <
I think she is a prime example of BYB churning out foal after foal, breeding a mediocre stallion to mediocre mares, or as breedingchampions pointed out:
“poor quality mares”.
>>And $20,000 as a yearling is hardly a dime a dozen. Get real people!< <
One yearling worth $20,000, does that make up for how many that aren’t:
http://www.sellnhorses.com/gpage31.html
aqha champion said, “After my boss saw her stallion, which was the product of that mare, and AQHA Champion, Impressive Review…”
Impressive Review is not an AQHA Champion. You might want to check the records of the horses you’re quoting.
The person that wrote to fugly probably doesn’t understand that when mare’s foal you can see their ribs…
Um, the mares I have (and others I know of) do now show ribs when foaling. LOL.
The last time I was at her farm she showed us some of the poor quality mares that had come thru to be bred to him…
Now there’s the mark of a great breeder, huh? Nothing like being selective about the mares to be bred to your stallion.
I hardly call those pedigree’s bad breeding.
It’s “pedigrees”. Without the apostrophe. And a good pedigree doesn’t guarantee a quality horse.
…are we going to criticize AQHA judges that they are all wrong – please.
She’s not an AQHA judge, nor does her horse have an impressive record at AQHA, and neither do his foals. 121 foals – 9 who were shown AQHA. And he’s 15 years old. I’m sorry, but I am not the least bit impressed here, by her horses, or your account of them.
These people don’t understand why this blog is here.
They are producing horses that no one SPECIFICALLY WANTS. Sure, they may find homes, and that’s great. I commend her for that.
You can also go to auctions and find the exact same stuff…even in Canada! Cute foals with mediocre parents, a few names back on the pedigree…$200 at Redwater.
This type of breeding is what this blog exists to prevent. Not AWFUL, not CRUEL NEGLECT, just poorly thought-out breeding programs that add to the overpopulation of an over-represented breed.
Sorry. Foal mills are perfect fugly fodder.
This is kind of the root of the fugly overpopulation problem.
Yes, cruel, ignorant people are out there breeding. And they are easy targets. The tougher targets are the nice people, who know a little, who push foals out the door in gross disproportion to what the buying public demands.
I am sure she loves animals. I am sure she takes care of her horses very well. She certainly has a beautiful facility. Her stallion is ok. Not hideous, but not spectacular….but she went ahead and instead of breeding a few keepers, or even just a select few sale foals….she puts out 121 freakin’ offspring. Already. With no sign of slowing.
Do you see? Do you see where the problem is?
It isn’t animal abusers (although they are a huge problem too), it is the well-meaning people that make weak choices that do not reflect the state of the industry.
How many of those foals went to new horse-owners? How many went to kids who wanted the first “golden” horse they looked at? How many went to top-quality horsepeople?
‘Cause as a relatively new horse owner, I resent the fact that mediocre breeders prey on us. And they do.
breedingchampions – Read for comprehension.
Sarcasabitch – You’re just jealous that kuvatzsfan is going to snap up those two sorrel yearlings before you get there first.
Puhleez. I just about spit soda out my nose about the ‘increase in traffic’ at her place.
Deneze said the same thing.
Guess what?
I’m not buying it.
It’s that time of year. Folks all over are booking their mares. Since she obviously doesn’t turn anybody away, and his stud fee is cheap, he’s AQHA registered and has some BS achievements in some color registries and is a pretty color… morons all over are breeding to him.
Does it change the fact that his back is as long as a Cadillac?
Does it change the fact that his non-colored offspring are going for just above meat prices?
No, it does not change these facts.
And let’s see these ropers, these dressage horses, these endurance horses! I sure couldn’t find any, but heck, I didn’t look EVERYWHERE.
Here’s what Wikipedia has to say about long backs as a conformational flaw:
Long back
“With the back measured from peak of withers to peak of croup, exceeds 1/3 of horse’s overall body length. Usually associated with long, weak loins.”
“The horse’s ability to engage back depends on its ability to elevate the back and loins, requiring strong back and abdominal muscles. A long back is flexible, but harder for horse to stiffen and straighten spine to develop speed or coil loins to collect and engage the hindquarters to thrust rear limbs forward. This then affects upper level dressage, cutting, reining, barrel racing, and polo: sports that require rapid engagement of the hindquarters. Reduced flexion forces the horse to jump flatter with less bascule.”
“It is difficult to develop a long back’s muscle strength, so a horse is more likely to fatigue under the rider and to sway over time.”
“Loins and hindquarters may swing more than normal, increasing the occurrence of sore muscles which leads to a stiff, rigid ride.”
“Cross-firing or speedy cutting likely at high-speeds from a horse with a long back.”
As a roper myself, I wouldn’t touch him. Too heavy on the front end, too long of a back.
While we’re on the subject, WHY THE HELL do all the halter horse breeders think their animals are suitable rope horses?!
Sure, some are, but the majority of what I’ve seen have FAR too much front end and not enough bone to support it; especially in a head horse situation.
Geld the Fugly! said…
breedingchampions – Read for comprehension.
Sarcasabitch – You’re just jealous that kuvatzsfan is going to snap up those two sorrel yearlings before you get there first.
Ssssh. She’ll hear you.
Man, those are some sweet geldings.
geld the fugly! said, “Forthefuture summed it up quite well: “He is 15 years old, has sired 121 AQHA foals, with 9 performers.”
That is a breeding success rate of, what? 13%?
As has been discussed multiple times here, no, showing isn’t the ONLY reason to breed and isn’t the ONLY hallmark of a successful stallion. HOWEVER, when you are marketing your stallion as a successful show horse (and presumably sire of successful show horses), perhaps you should aim higher than a 13% success rate……not breeding to crap mares is probably a step in the right direction? Just a thought…..”
Those 9 foals shown didn’t necessarily place. They might have, and they might not have. The list only showed those who were “shown”. For about 6 bucks, we could get the details. I didn’t think it was worth the money…:)
forthefuture – LOL. I didn’t think it was worth the 6 bucks either….and figured I’d give the benefit of the doubt, feeling all generous and full of holiday spirit….
breedingchampions said, “…she’s too busy taking phone calls and e-mails from people wanting to breed to Beau since seeing this.”
LMAO! You’re kidding, right? Reminiscent of gary and Deneze. LOL.
Once again it’s been proven that ignorance and irresponsible breeding go hand in hand. Every time one of these asshats comes to this site to defend themselves or one of their supposed “friends” comes to defend them, their posts are keyboard diarrhea. Fugly is so dead on when she says they don’t need her help to make them look bad.
Sarcastabitch said, “It isn’t animal abusers (although they are a huge problem too), it is the well-meaning people that make weak choices that do not reflect the state of the industry.”
Right on the money with that. Not only do they not take the state of the industry into consideration, but they are not what I call responsible breeders, and they do not breed for breed improvement. Sure, they say they are, but do they really know what quality is? Obviously not, or there wouldn’t be such a glut of mediocre horses out there today.
Sarcastabitch – Oh well, if Kuvatzsfan gets there first, you can always create your own. Think of that! Buy a mare from “fucking vet” Deneze and you’re in business! Oh, Fugly blog, bringing people together. (insert dreamy sigh here)
Oh, wait, I almost forgot – you can wait until Steve and his wife’s babies hit the ground since they’re breeding FOUR mares to Beau this year!
RoanRider420 said…
Crunchberry’s mom said…
“who was it that could look up a horse’s accomplishments?
He’s Tough and Rowdy
look him up, please! that is Sarah Stetman’s long-suffering horse (the lame one from the youtube/expert village videos)”
That is not a valid AQHA name. It must be spelled a different way. If you give me the correct spelling, I can look it up. Apostrophes are not allowed in AQHA names, so I looked it up as “Hes Tough And Rowdy” and there was no horse registered with that name.
December 11, 2007 4:14 PM
Dontyouridenofuglyhorse said…
I think Sarah Stetners horse’s name is Hes Tuff N Rowdy or something like that.
December 11, 2007 4:24 PM
colorisnteverything said…
Oh, God, please look that poor horse up if you can find the correct name. That poor thing needs an upgrade desperately!
December 11, 2007 4:30 PM
i copied and pasted it off her expert village page… maybe she doesn’t know how to spell her own horse’s name.. it wouldn’t surprise me, she doesn’t know how to ride him, or care for him either!
and UPGRADE is definitely in order here!
SCUBA STEVE, MR AQHA CHAMP SAID:
The last time I was at her farm she showed us some of the poor quality mares that had come thru to be bred to him, and showed us pictures of poor quality mares that had some descent babies on the ground, considering how bad the mare’s were.
wow. so she breeds it to anything with a vagina. top notch.
Ok – Bob Milkie AQHA judge is all wrong – bunch of dummies. I don’t know many people who don’t hold high regards for him, yet you are all attacking him indirectly. Are you reading what your frickin writing?
I’m not responding to this anymore. Obviously we all are not thinking clearly here. You look at a picture and judge wrongly based on a picture. I remember a guy that roped with a Beau baby that stopped at the barn when I worked there – he was at the top of his class. There’s also a barrel racer Beau baby at the top of her class. Guess it was a bad picture that led you to thatkind of thinking, yuh think!!
This website should be outlawed. It’s like Jerry Springer, only in horses. The people that watch it, participate in it – what an example. I’m done here and won’t be back. Sorry, can’t stoop this low again.
geld the fugly! – Ok, what the hell.
SKIP IMPRESSING ME. 2 novice yth performance points
BEAU TIE INVESTMENT. Shown, no points earned
DJS FIESTA DEL SOL. Shown, no points earned
BEAUS LADY LIL. No AQHA points. Has ABRA points (9 halter, 1 perf pt)
MISS BLAZIN DIXIE. Shown, no points earned
SIMPLY A HOT BEAU. 1 ABRA halter pt
BEAUS HOT CHOCOLATE. 1 IBHA halter pt, 2 ABRA halter pts
AQHA records INCLUDE buckskin shows/points earned.
13% success rate? Not even close.
Points earned in registries outside of the main breed registry are not nearly as difficult to get. It’s like APHA horses with PtHA (Pinto) points, but no APHA points. Something is wrong with that picture. The subject stallion? NO AQHA points. 4 AQHA foals registered for 2006. Hardly the most popular stallion in the Midwest.
drile… way late here but I don’t know what seat–I think she’s recently taken up jumping (she started out on just trails and graduated to polo-type seat… which flies nowhere in ‘proper’ riding lol) and on the topic of the general discussion…. this is funny! too bad I have a surgery final to study for because I love hearing the excuses from Beau’s supporters about how everyone here is wrong and mislead and it’s not his owner’s fault etc etc etc……. wheeeeeeee!
fatchick said…
GOOD DISPOSITION AND GOOD LOOKS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. WHAT THE HELL MAKES KAREN AND STEVE AND LINDA THINK OTHERWISE???????
What a fucking concept. Breed for both. If the horse is fugly don’t breed it. If the horse is flighty or nasty, again don’t breed it. How about breeding for both sound minds and bodies rather turning out more stockbred crap. The market is flooded with it. I am so tired of hearing good disposition as a reason for breeding some fugly poor horse that probably wont stay sound or useful for something other than slaughtering. This isn’t jealousy this is me telling you I think breeding mediocre horses like they are nearing extinction makes you a fucktard. This is LOGIC for those of you who have bounced off a horse and onto your head more times than is really good for you.
December 11, 2007 11:06 PM
exceptionally well said.
Geld the fugly! – The other two foals, who make up the “9 who did something” would be ones who are in the “horseback riding program”.
I love when people announce their departure from the blog comments.
“Oh farewell, cruel world! You’ll not hear from me again!” cried the heroine, as she exited, stage left.
Yes, well. Bye.
breedingchampions said…
Ok – Bob Milkie AQHA judge is all wrong – bunch of dummies. I don’t know many people who don’t hold high regards for him, yet you are all attacking him indirectly. Are you reading what your frickin writing?
I’m not responding to this anymore. Obviously we all are not thinking clearly here. You look at a picture and judge wrongly based on a picture. I remember a guy that roped with a Beau baby that stopped at the barn when I worked there – he was at the top of his class. There’s also a barrel racer Beau baby at the top of her class. Guess it was a bad picture that led you to thatkind of thinking, yuh think!!
This website should be outlawed. It’s like Jerry Springer, only in horses. The people that watch it, participate in it – what an example. I’m done here and won’t be back. Sorry, can’t stoop this low again.
December 12, 2007 9:45 AM
more like, “i don’t want to hear the truth!” lol
forthefutureofthebreed said…
Geld the fugly! – The other two foals, who make up the “9 who did something” would be ones who are in the “horseback riding program”.
December 12, 2007 9:58 AM
LOLZ, hey, wait a minute! my son was in the horseback riding program when he was 3 and 4… he got lots of schwag from them… if you’re gonna ride, why not get some free crap? =)
i do see what you’re saying, i’m just being silly!
>>Sarcasabitch – You’re just jealous that kuvatzsfan is going to snap up those two sorrel yearlings before you get there first.
Ssssh. She’ll hear you.< <
)
Oh, I lost out on it, as I went home for lunch. What a shame indeed.
Congrats Sarcasta on your fuglies.
For every fugly foal born, one will go to slaughter…there are not enough homes, there are only so many dumb novices in the market for a horse.
>>I love when people announce their departure from the blog comments.
“Oh farewell, cruel world! You’ll not hear from me again!” cried the heroine, as she exited, stage left.
Yes, well. Bye.< <
Like I always say, you are not Elvis and no one really cares if you leave the building.
Also, to clarify, I would never have a harsh word to say about Bob and Susan Milkie’s breeding program. They breed very good horses with very good minds. Like any breeder, they are not able to control what someone may do with mares purchased from them and the choices that purchaser may make. You may, however, wish to observe which homebreds the Milkies kept for their own breeding program…if you stack those up side to side next to the ones sold, you see a clear example of a breeder culling very intelligently so that what they breed continues to be top of the line. (Although I will say, that retarded Redeemer son they used to stand should have been shot…but that was a long time ago. That’s really the only thing I can disagree with there.)
forthefuture – Yep. No surprises there. 2 novice youth AQHA points and a handful of colorbreed points. And actually, I did my earlier math before my second cup of coffee….9 shown of 121 offspring = 7%. 4 point earners of 121 offspring = 3%. (I think…there is a reason I went into law instead of some math-related field….)
Even less impressive without the colorbreed points (less than 1% success rate, if I did the math right). I’ve owned a bunch of plain sorrel horses, each that I put a handful of AQHA points on. With the possible exception of a very cranky mare, they were all sweet and I loved them. But that didn’t make them anything special.
There have been quite a few posts about how FHOTD is “too mean”, or “picked on the wrong person/horse”. It’s funny, but given the intelligence level and research ability of the majority of the readers here, the truth comes out eventually, either way. Serious, responsible horse owners and breeders take note. They always do. The rest are in denial. Free speech is great, isn’t it?
I actually called Karen, I was so fed up with all the jealousy, and she said she would not go on the site – she’s too busy taking phone calls and e-mails from people wanting to breed to Beau since seeing this. She wanted me to pass on, to thank whooever started all of this – it has caused quite an increase in traffic at her place.
Ooooh hoho! We’ve heard this one before: “THANKS for all the attention FHOTD, now we’ve booked our stallion well into 2011.” Suuuure. I’ve got premier beachfront property for sale in Colorado, too, if ya wanna give me a call. Wake up and smell the roses, Steve/Karen/linda/breeding”champions”
BTW, sarcastabitch, we’ve been experiencing a recent revival of the “Back to the Future” trilogy at our house, so mixed metaphors have rooled-like-Ozzy lately. Remember when Biff Tannen snarls “why don’t you make like a tree, and get outta here!” when it’s supposed to be “LEAVE”–”make like a tree, and LEAVE!” har
Right.
Well, ta ta then. Good luck breeding to a mediocre stallion and expecting to sell the resulting get for anything above meat price.
And how does it have ANYTHING to do with Bob Milkie?
If he judged him and placed him well, it was likely because the rest of the crap in the class was junk. ESPECIALLY if it was a color class.
If he bred him, well, he obviously didn’t KEEP him… and HE didn’t make the decision to breed him to a bunch of junk mares, did he?
Based on ONE picture I made this assessment of this stallion? I think not. He’s ALL OVER the internet, pictures of him EVERYWHERE, from EVERY angle, and they are ALL the same. Long back. Screwed up neck. Mediocrity.
fuglyhorseoftheday – Yes Milkie’s do have a great reputation. They did want to buy that mare back after she grew, so even if she was culled, they did want her back. They were the ones that said to breed her to that horse.
I’m a horse vet and I don’t want to get involved in all this slamming, but this is a pretty nice horse you are talking about. I’ve done a lot of prepurchases on foals of his and I have been impressed. There are lots of other breeds that he bred with, other than AQHA. I don’t think this site is being used as it was intended for. There are many poor stallions out there, but he’s definately not one of them.
If he bred him, well, he obviously didn’t KEEP him… and HE didn’t make the decision to breed him to a bunch of junk mares, did he?
He didn’t breed him. Karen did, according to AQHA. And you’re probably right – just because a horse won, doesn’t mean it’s a quality, fault-free horse. He was just the best horse ON THAT DAY.
horsevet said, “I’m a horse vet and I don’t want to get involved in all this slamming, but this is a pretty nice horse you are talking about. I’ve done a lot of prepurchases on foals of his and I have been impressed. There are lots of other breeds that he bred with, other than AQHA. I don’t think this site is being used as it was intended for. There are many poor stallions out there, but he’s definately not one of them.”
That’s all fine and dandy…fairly problem-free foals, etc. if that is the case. The issue is breeding mediocrity. As you know, mediocre quality horses can also pass a vet or pre-purchase exam. A mustang could pass it too if they’ve never been injured. There is enough mediocrity out there. Why breed more of them?
Like was mentioned earlier, this horse is being touted as the most popular all around sire in the Midwest. Yet this horse isn’t of high enough quality to compete in his own breed organization’s shows (and obviously, neither are his foals). Why is he being breeding on?
Horsevet said:…”"but this is a pretty nice horse you are talking about.”"
Pretty nice is not enough to breed.
Why is that hard to understand, there is an overpopulation of pretty nice horses, no market for them and breeders are still churning them out.
Hell, add to that that dreaded “hay shortage” and much better horses are going for nearly nothing. Just shop around online, it’s absolutely frightening.
Exactly, Kuvaszfan.
And I apologize for my typos. Brain goes faster than fingers. LOL.
Ohhhhhhhhhkay, HorseVet.
If you like long-backed/short-necked horses, I guess he’s right up your alley.
Me, I like them with quite a bit more balance to them. I know, I’m crazy, but I CARE about how well a horse can do its job.
I’ve been largely unimpressed by the quality of this stallion’s foals that I’ve seen all over the internet. I don’t know if he owes that to the quality of mares he’s allowed to breed or if it’s because he himself is mediocre.
But based on the foals that I have seen, he’s NOT a prepotent sire for anything other than mediocre horses that are capable only of acquiring points in open and color breed registries–which almost any stallion with a set of gonads is capable of doing.
What makes him special enough to breed on? And PLEASE don’t say his color.
OFCOL – You know, these people never come back to really debate the issue. They can’t. They have nothing to stand on, so they attack, then leave in a huff. And they wonder why all the snark on this blog. Too bad they can’t actually participate in a discussion intelligently. It would be a good learning experience for all. I think they already know they’re on the losing end of that one…
Oh, I know.
Still, you’ve got to at least INVITE them back to debate, right? LOL!
Now… if we could only get gary and Deneze the fucking vet to show back up. Now THOSE folks knew how to throw down the ‘f’ word!
LOL. That wouldn’t be an intelligent debate (gary and Deneze). At least horsevet can spell (and must have gone to school to be a vet), so it has the potential to be an intellectual discussion on the quality and integrity of horses.
Sorry – guess I should have said something more like – he’s very well balanced. And poor pictures – definately. He does honestly have a perfect trapezium.
horsevet, you (of all people) should know that mediocre quality horses can have good, balanced conformation, along with correct legs and soundness, along with a willing mind and good disposition. That doesn’t mean it’s breeding quality.
In order for a horse to be considered “breeding quality”, it needs to have not only balance; it needs to possess what is called “class”. They need to be exceptional, beyond the level of quality that is average or mediocre for the breed.
A breeder becomes qualified to practice his art not by merely being able to buy bloodstock, but by knowing what excellence in horseflesh is like and then developing or adopting a system of stock selection and culling capable of meeting that standard.
Our ability to breed excellent horses depends upon the following five factors:
CLARITY, as in “feel for typeâ€. Excellence in horseflesh is above all boundaries of bloodline and breed and is self-evident to horsemen who permit horses to define themselves, rather than burdening them with human preconceptions and prejudices.
CRITICAL FACILITY. Breeders must be able to see and analyze the pedigrees, phenotypes and performance capabilities of bloodstock before intelligent culling decisions can be made. The quality of a horse or foal is not guaranteed by its pedigree; rather, quality and value can be assessed only by looking at the horse or foal itself. This includes minds as well as bodies.
CONSISTENCY in our vision of excellence and in the selection of bloodstock. A breeder must have specific performance and phenotypic goals before beginning to breed and then stick to them, for they may take generations to reach.
COSMOPOLITAN access to large numbers of excellent, phenotypically complementary individuals to ensure that “the best†are able to reproduce with “the bestâ€. Prepotency, soundness and desirable type cannot be established or maintained on the basis of one or a few individuals.
COURAGE to execute the primary function of selection, which is removal of undesirable animals from the breeding population. Standards must be high and strictly applied. Culling might involve gelding and spaying, selling to the 4-H market, or in some instances, euthanasia. Statistically speaking, 25 to 50% of all horses are of mediocre or poor quality compared to other members of their bloodline. To achieve any given breeding goal, ALL these individuals must be culled.
Two attitudes about horse breeding prevail today in America. One, an entrenched resistance to gelding stallions, and two, the willingness, even eagerness, to breed every maiden mare at least once, no matter how unlikely a specimen she may be. Dr. Deb Bennett.
Anyone who doesn’t understand or can’t abide by these strict guidelines shouldn’t be breeding horses.
More:
Because government control of horse breeding is unlikely ever to occur here, breeders must take responsibility for their own activities. The most powerful regulatory force in the U. S. today is the knowledgeable consumer, who demands good quality and fair price. Excellent horses come from one source only…other excellent horses. Broodmares as well as stallions must meet the highest standards of quality. If they don’t, neither they nor their owners should be in the breeding business.
He is breeding quality.
AQHA foals only show who has sent in their registration thus far, and only shows AQHA horses, not other breeds this stallion has bred to.
I find it incredibly hard to believe that the stallion book is filling due to this post.
I bet however, if you educated the people breeding to her stud that they make some serious dough if they chose to breed to a kentucky based stallion and foal their baby out in Kentucky they would come a running.
This Kentucky Bred thing is all the rage here. The journal is full of stallions that are moving. Farmland here just quadrupled in price. Large operations are setting up another operation this way.
Our university has several kentucky breds at the farm that are Kentucky Breeders Incentive and we are getting astronomical offers on all them, and let me tell all but maybe two are absolute junk!
I wonder if trend is a Kentucky only thing or if we can plan to see it in other states?
Horsevet said…
He is breeding quality.
He has testicles.
AQHA foals only show who has sent in their registration thus far, and only shows AQHA horses, not other breeds this stallion has bred to.
So, people are breeding to this horse but not registering the foals? He’s had 12 years to sire something. Out of at least 120 foals (these are just the AQHA ones), one would think that if he’s the best thing since sliced bread, he should be siring quality foals consistent with the breed standard. Obviously this is not happening, since those who know her have stated that the horse is bred to pretty much anything, quality or not. It only devalues a stallion when he is bred to anything that comes through the gate, registered or not.
Good mares or shitty mares, the one thing I’ve seen coming out of that stallion is mediocre-at-best foals. Of all his get, I’ve seen perhaps two that would garner a second glance – and they are (hopefully) not breeding as they are not worth it.
Horsevet, I suspect you’re simply checking these animals to give them a clear bill of health. You can’t possibly be looking at these creatures and assigning them “100% top breeding quality!!!” status.
An interesting note: while looking for “Beau babies”, I found a post agreeing with a few of the things about him – that his babies mature slowly, for the most part – but what was left out? They could be stubborn asses.
horsevet, out of 120+ AQHA foals, whose registrations have been sent in so far (of which none of them are AQHA breed show quality), and the first ones are 12 years old now (this stallion was bred as a 2yo), you’re saying the mixed-breed foals are the quality ones? Is that what you mean when you say “he is breeding quality”?
Horsevet said…
He is breeding quality.
AQHA foals only show who has sent in their registration thus far, and only shows AQHA horses, not other breeds this stallion has bred to.
This stallion has sired 8 registered APHA (Paint) foals. 6 are Solid Paint Bred. None of them to show (but yayyy, 5 of them are buckskin, palomino, or perlino).
So, where does this stallion shine?
Horsevet said…
He is breeding quality.
AQHA foals only show who has sent in their registration thus far, and only shows AQHA horses, not other breeds this stallion has bred to.
December 12, 2007 5:20 PM
First of all, quality is a relative term. Really relative, in this case.
Yes, he has four legs.
Yes, he is an attractive color.
Yes, he is broke to ride and has earned some points in some lower-end registry shows.
This does NOT denote breeding quality. This denotes a good GELDING.
He is NOT producing animals that I would consider to be anything other than basically mediocre.
He IS reproducing his malformed neck and long back, however, begetting a legacy of swayed backs and improper balance.
Mentioning the trapezoid… so his shoulder angle and croup angle match. BFD. His back is STILL long, in every picture, in every pose. Still a level trapezoid I suppose, just a very loooong one.
Look at this picture:
http://tinyurl.com/2g5ouw
And this picture:
http://tinyurl.com/27lx4b
HOW ON EARTH is that a balanced horse?!
Sure, he’s far from the WORST horse I’ve ever seen. Does that make him breeding quality?
“Breeding horses that aren’t the worst” … makes a hell of a breeding slogan. That reminds me of the movie Office Space… ‘making people work just hard enough NOT to get fired.’ She’s producing horses that are just shy of being meat quality.
So he’s produced some paints as well. None of them have done anything any more than the AQHA registered get have. Moot point.
He’s got decent hocks, I’ll give him that. He’s also obviously got a remarkably trainable and tractable disposition. Another bonus. But these things do NOT make a fantastic breeding animal.
His foals are all over the place conformation-wise. As a vet, you HAVE to notice that the majority of his get DO NOT have homogeneous quality. Sure, they have the odd good point… but they are all lacking.
And what kind of hillbilly assclowns don’t register their foals that they paid $500 a pop to get?!
Don’t they know that, without papers, a horse goes DIRECTLY on to the double-decker if it happens to find itself into “that” situation?!
They can’t spare the REGISTRATION FEE, but they CAN afford to BREED THEIR HORSE.
I am absolutely dumbfounded over that statement.
I’ll never understand it. The type of people you’re advocating to keep breeding horses… they are EXACTLY the type that shouldn’t be.
http://tinyurl.com/27lx4b
hahaha! he is as long as a school bus!
I have read this blog quite a few times and I agree with pretty much everything that has been said. However I think that it has went a little too far. I think that you have personally attacked the owner of this stallion and the only way that you realized how to do it was bas her stallion.
I seen that one person had said something about no profile shots being shown on the site. That is true except there are profile views of him under saddle. From that picture he looks like a very handsome stallion.
I guess I didnt look around the site hard enough but I couldn’t find the picture of that foal and mare with the weird looking hip. She may have taken it down prior to me looking, who knows.
Why is the stallion being attacked because he sires “slow maturing” or short foals? I’m sure that after some research a person could find many fine stallions that are proven sires or proven show horses who are in the 15 hand range. The foals that are shown on the site look very nice and have pretty nice conformation. I’m sure that if they lacked in conformation or ability that they wouldn’t be winning titles such as “ABRA congress winner”, etc.
Foundered donkeys, slaughter horses, abused & neglected horses is one thing but I’m not so sure about this…. Sounds like you brought in a bunch of other people to bash this person for your own reasons. I’m not a lawyer but I’m pretty sure that this could be considered slander.
I worked on the farm with these horses for several years…
The spot on the mare’s hip is an acid scar from an abusive previous owner.
RE: the child.
Beau is essentially about as lively as a rock. The kid wouldn’t have to worry unless a mare was around.
More recent pictures of the stallion…critique your hearts out.
http://flickr.com/photos/timstephansen/sets/72157600214187865/
And another thing about the child, I was speaking more in terms of the general disposition of the horse suggesting that he posed no threat to her.
-_-
Suppose I’ll mention that they start at “fourteen” and go to the end of the album.
I had too been around these horses for a few years and I admit Beau is not a bad looking horse. That does not change the fact that Karen has no clue how to run a business or deal with people. She has made more enemies than anyone I know. And of everyone I talk to, no one has anything good to say about her.
I heard from a friend, that mare does have an acid burn on her hip, but not from an abusive past owner though. It happened because they wanted to give her a Paint “spot” to qualify her for papers. She’s had one foal that’s worth a shit. I’m pretty sure that’s the mare that almost went to slaughter too. wow, poor thing. Karen is also a horrible judge.
That’s what I meant RE: acid burn.
Throwing acid on a horse seems abusive to me, hence the wording, but I suppose I placed it incorrectly.
For crying out loud, Why keep breeding anyway… the horse population is way overcrowded…
Spaying and gelding is the perfect choice…
I would never let my child, being sitting on the ground next to ANY horse’s legs as a fact.. I dont care if it is a dead beat gentle horse… ACCIDENTS CAN HAPPEN.. Wake up People….
That is just like sitting your kid down near a junkyard dog….
Waaaay late to the game but I know this woman personally (from years ago) and all her detractors are spot on. Horrible all the way around. I always felt sorry for all her animals (and the kids that worked for her). She treated everything on that place (and her neighbors) like shit.