Do you have to wind them up with their tail to get them to do that?
Nov 24 2007
Before I even begin this topic, I want to clarify that I have no experience with dressage.
Well, actually, I have kind of a funny story about it. I was riding at a barn that had both indoor polo and h/j/dressage horses in Chicago in my late teens. I became pals with another girl around my same age. She had an amazing big dressage horse. I would ride with her on the 14.1 hand Appendix QH polo pony I was taking care of. We were buddies even though she said things that made me roll my eyes at the time, like “you shouldn’t get on from the ground, it’s bad for the horse’s back.” (Admittedly, with age and experience, I have accepted that there probably was a kernel of truth to that, although I’m guessing that launching my 19 year old 112 lb. self onto a 14.1 pony mare was probably not throwing her spine out of alignment). Anyway, she thought the polo ponies looked like fun to ride, so one day she asked me if I wanted to switch.
Sure! Why not?
Well, all I can say is that someone should have been videotaping. I had never ridden anything but polo ponies at this point in my life. I had no leg, because you only use your leg in polo when you want to turn or go faster, and a lot of polo ponies overreact to any lower leg contact at all. I had never ridden on english-style contact. I pitched Big Dressage Horse away and rode with my lower leg off of him and he was hopelessly confused. He wouldn’t go forward, and he started bucking. Meanwhile, my friend on the little polo mare said HO and got a slide stop that nearly pitched her over the neatly pricked set of pony ears in front of her.
We quickly elected to switch back! And that was my experience with dressage horses. For years, I rode at various barns that had some dressage horses boarded there, and while there were some exceptions (and I did ride a really awesome, happy Hungarian Warmblood mare some years down the road), I started to see a theme: Pinned ears, swishing tail and an overall unhappy look on the horse’s face. Oh, they might be doing absolutely beautiful maneuvers, but they were pissed. They rarely got turned out. They stood in their stalls and snarled at passers-by. The barn help were afraid of them. They had a lot of lameness issues, they had a lot of back problems. I’m not saying all of them, don’t have hysterics now, but to the eye of a casual observer with no dressage training, a lot of them simply weren’t happy horses.
In the past few years, I’ve learned that even among dressage riders, there’s a huge amount of debate over training methods. Apparently a lot of people who do dressage do not care for the pinned-ear, cranking tail, death-grip-on-mouth look either. In fact, there is a name for it – rollkur. Now seriously, how educated of a rider do you have to be to see that these are pissed off, unhappy and physically uncomfortable horses? I’ve taught 10 year old kids who would be able to recognize the look on this horse’s face. When I hear that Anky whateverthehell got her ass bucked off, I think good for the horse. I’d buck you off too if you cranked on my face like that in a double bridle. (Before you all have a shit fit that I made that comment, yes, I think she is a beautiful rider, far more talented than I will ever be, and I’ve seen some video of her rides where the horse doesn’t look unhappy in the least…but I’ve seen others where the horse looks like it wishes she would fall off so it could stomp her dead.)
A story from another board – I’d love video of this. Anybody got the video?
“This makes me think of a discussion I read recently on another forum where I go to remind myself just how stupid people can be. The discussion was about Anky’s horse freaking out during an awards ceremony and not only did he spook and bolt, he would NOT stop and she could not stop him and was yelling for help even as he ran into the band that she had steered him into hoping they would stop him…and finally a mounted policeman stopped him with the police horse. So the argument on the forum was all about how everyone’s horse might bolt in those circumstances, and all kinds of ridiculous attempts to defend the number one dressage rider in the world who can’t even stop her horse where’s she’s supposed to in her test, much less stop him if he’s on the way to killing innocent bystanders. “
Again, I am not a dressage rider. But if the people riding in the Cavalia show can accomplish movements like passage on horses who are not wearing bridles at all, it stands to reason that it is not necessary to pull something’s jaw off in a double bridle to do it, right? I will say, those Cavalia horses looked perfectly happy doing it. I never saw a tail crank or an ear lay back. Feel free to enlighten me – why exactly is it necessary to crank the horse’s jaw into its sternum to win the Olympics? If you think you can explain/justify it, please comment. Or if you are a dressage rider and think it’s crap, feel free to say that, too!
I mean, come on, would you want to do this with your chin?
This is one unhappy horse. So are these.
What I think is funny is that I know the folks who do this (hehe, I’m picturing them having a cow that someone called them “folks”) can probably rag all day on AQHA training and how unnatural the head set is. Um, this is just as unnatural and if you think about how a horse’s spine is built, way more uncomfortable for the horse than peanut rolling. (Yes, peanut rolling is stupid too…but really all the horse is doing is trotting around with his head in the grazing position. This overflexed bullshit does not occur in nature. A horse would never choose to do this unless you were holding a carrot between his forelegs!)
Now, I have to give the FEI some credit. They are holding workshops and trying to figure out how to deal with training methods that may be abusive and may not be in the horses’ best interest. However, when they say that they need “A more detailed definition of what is to be considered as abuse is required, e.g. stress factors, pain or discomfort,” I can solve that one for them. Just trot ‘em out for soundness at the end and have a good vet and chiropractor assess them. Disqualify them for soreness. Everybody will figure out how to train without it in a big hurry if you do that! It’s like in AQHA…when they started dropping bits in the classes, voila, it pretty much solved the illegal bit problem! Nobody likes to look like an asshat in public, no matter how much of one they are in private.
Now, before you all think I’m just anti-dressage…absolutely not. In fact, one of the riders I’ve seen that I’m most impressed with is a dressage rider. I know many of you have already seen her videos on Youtube, but if you haven’t, go watch. Watch the absolute softness and lack of any temper this girl rides with. She is clear, consistent, has beautiful balance and as a result has been able to work through problems that I have a feeling a lot of the “Big Names” would have dealt with using a quiet call to the horse dealer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNMIz-RjJyw
Those of you who are so inclined may now commence having hysterics that I’m a lot more impressed with a 19 year old kid than Anky whatsername…hey I bet this girl knows how to stop a runaway without screeching for a man to save her!
I’ve always been a horse-centric rider. I want the horse to be happy and comfortable and willing. I’m a hell of a lot more impressed with someone who can accomplish that than with anything else in the world. I love riding, I’m grateful that horses allow us to ride them, and I want them to enjoy the experience every bit as much as we do.
Every time I see people making horses miserable because of money, or fame, or ego, it makes me want to puke, and I don’t care if that’s a pleasure trainer tying a horse’s head up over a rafter or a race trainer running a lame horse trying to make back someone’s investment, or a Big Name Trainer on a horse who has that long suffering look of a child star with a pushy mother.
358 comments to “Do you have to wind them up with their tail to get them to do that?”
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May said:
there is nothing nice about it, nothing subtle, to me it just seems like a short cut and horses who have been schooled with it never seem happy or relaxed, they don’t seem to enjoy their work. It’s not really a new thing though, it was used ages ago in show jumping I’m sure
People have been cranking in their horse’s face to their chests as long as I’ve ever seen.
If you’ve attended many Arabian shows and watched the western pleasure horses warming up, and now this includes the hunters, you’ll see the exact same thing. The Morgans follow a close second, BTW. This isn’t exclusive to the dressage arena, it’s just that the trendy name has become associated with the dressage discipline.
For years and years the training equipment de rigueur in the Arabian world has been draw reins with a tiny bridoon or curb bit, and these horses are kept so behind the vertical at all times the only time they are out of that getup is during a class. That horse has been kept in that frame so long it doesn’t know anything different. You can throw the reins away, and it still holds itself in that same, contrived profile.
More than once I’ve seen these horses “leave town” (an Anky moment, if you will) in the warmup arena, chin firmly into their chest, riders pulling for all their worth, because the horse is so desensitized to the unrelenting pressure there is no communication between the reins any longer. All that horse knows is he’d better hold his face and neck like that… or else.
Go through any of the photo albums from the top photographers in the Arabian world and look through the western pleasure class photos here, here, here, here, here, here, and a million other places, and see for yourself. This artificial collection, being so behind the bit it becomes a caricature of itself – is the profile these people work towards. If you spend any time at all in the warmup pen, you’ll see it ten times worse, I assure you.
Is it called rollkur? No, but it’s the same animal, no matter what label it’s given. The dressage riders didn’t invent this. It’s still abusive, and it’s still horseshit, no matter what you call it.
Stolensilver, you state that there are only good and bad riders, and no one labels themselves: I respectfully disagree. I do ride and have competed in dressage, I have ridden under both kinds and (self-)labels of coach, “FEI” and “Classical”. I have ridden under good and bad, and do know the difference. Most people who think they are good are in fact arrogant, and haven’t had the right horse or trainer (or both!) humble them.
What started the need to label oneself Classical or non was the rising tide of FEI winners using harsh training and pushing their horses, against the tenets of the traditions of the discipline.
My observation was based on my own experiences. I have had three FEI coaches, only one of which still rode, and she mostly refused to back her students’ horses, even to tune them or see what the horse’s training was (that’s while evaluating for a sale propect, for instance). The Classical coaches have always been willing to *show* what they know, and have been willing and able to do so on everyything from a green pony mare, (she needed to show a square halt, and to give an example of slow softening at the poll: the pony was 12 hh, and starting a career in pony hunters), through an aged Arabian mare (who could, after a half hours’ warm-up do one tempis and half pass at the canter), to a 10 year old Perch x Morgan who was green broke under a hard handed jump rider: within two weeks he was balancing very well and showing his natural inclination to passage. This coach’s best success was a 6 year old OTTB, who went from bowed front tendons, (had six months off and been lightly hacked thereafter), to a PSG horse in two and a half years.
I wonder if you have noted how Americans do not seem to be winning golds in Dressage at the WEG or Olympics… those hallowed medals seem reserved for European riders and horses. Perhaps that is why you don’t see rollkur where you are, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a big problem in competitive (FEI) dressage.
I know the videos everyone is linking too: have seen them all and analyzed them all. I was initially enchanted by the expressiveness of Bleu Hors Matine, and then as I watched and saw the errors in that ride, saw the change from a comfortably swishing tail (a desireable sign of deep schwung) when she is passaging to the twirling flicking, windmill (which is a sign of distress and agitation) when she is performing her tempis, I have revised my opinion: that is not as happy a horse as the commentators seem to believe. She likes one part of her job, but barely tolerates the other. Yes, she was marvelously expressive, but her actual test was better than her kur. Salinero was the opposite: his kur was better than his test. He showed relaxed, rhythmic and soft in the kur, he seemed tight and agitated in the test. Keep in mind, both of these horses are performing in front of immense crowds in an alien enviroment. Unless schooled for it and exposed to it, most horses will show signs of agitation under those circumstances.
I have also seen Salinero ridden in deep rollkur and seen how shoddy his performance was in that state. I believe Anke learned that he won’t tolerate as much suppression, and has learned how to use it only to “tweak” his performances. She does use rollkur, and states why, too: it makes the horse more “explosive” in the ring: each air has more lift and tension, more expression. That does not mean it is right, especially when other, less skilled riders are using her as their role-model.
stolen, I am not condescending to you, all I have done is disagree with your opinion, as my own experiences differ. If you insist on feeling put-down by my commentary, that’s your choice.
Would someone please go and tell pirouette987 what really happen when Yanky Anky Spanky’s horse took off with ehr. This person seems to think that Anky can do no wrong!
http://tinyurl.com/3e3lsw
BehindTheBarn,
Did you happen to watch the Arabian World Cup in Vegas? All of the Hunter horses were behind the vertical. The horse that won was the furthest behind the vertical.
Look on youtube for Arabian Nationals and watch all of the vids with the horses behind the vertical. It is sad and I hope it changes by the time my 08 foal is old enough to show under saddle!
mattsontraining.net:
Where’d you get them from? I seriously can’t find them and my local tack store doesn’t know what I’m talking about.
my3arabs said:
It is sad and I hope it changes by the time my 08 foal is old enough to show under saddle!
Sorry, sweetie, but it ain’t happenin’. As Madonna said, it’ll happen “when monkeys fly outta my butt.”
This has been the standard for years and years. I’m over 45 and been showing and attending shows since I was a kid, and it’s gotten worse, not better.
You can ride any way you like when it’s time to show your horse, but if you don’t have that all-so-important phony profile you’re going to stick out like a sore thumb. In my mind that would be a good thing, but I doubt any of these judges will reward you for it. All you’re doing is adding more money to the jackpot for the winners who will no doubt travel behind the vertical on loose, sloppy reins, to the point of looking ridiculous.
Sorry.
“BehindTheBarn said…
Sorry, sweetie, but it ain’t happenin’. As Madonna said, it’ll happen “when monkeys fly outta my butt.”
Well there goes another dream down the drain!!
Is that the reason why so many Hunt Seat/Sport Horse riders in the Arab and HA world are sticking to open shows?
My3Arabs:
Crap like this is why I stopped showing my horse period and only showed other horses in stadium and XC where it was time and faults not how the horse carried itself. I never placed on my boy because the pale,pale,pale strawberry roan and white coat and fairly messy breeding made us stand out like mad in an arena and he moved like the heavy horse he was in a ring full of TB’s.
Stupid Virginia hunterseat riders thinking you need a 17hh TB to jump.
my3arabs said:
Is that the reason why so many Hunt Seat/Sport Horse riders in the Arab and HA world are sticking to open shows?
Heck if I know. Most of the ones I see at the open shows aren’t showing any differently than you see in the Arab shows, so it isn’t as if they are deviating from the overbridled gold standard.
I wonder if there’s a word in Arabic that means rollkur. If so, then the people showing Arabians can embrace this and say they invented it. Boy, would that upset the dressage folks – someone took their word away!
I can see it now – the elitist Egyptian folks would claim they owned the word, then the Polish and Russian Arabian breeders would come up with a word in their horse’s native language, and there would be all kinds of interesting class wars. (The ones breeding American lines could just as easily call it what it is – bullshit – and not go through all the contortions of translation.)
Could someone critique this vid for me. I would love to learn more about what is going on between this horse and rider.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXK695Kuhvc
No the vid is not of me or my horse.
>s that the reason why so many Hunt Seat/Sport Horse riders in the Arab and HA world are sticking to open shows?
Got it in one. Though to be fair, the Arab/HA _sport horse_ classes are judged by USEF carded dressage or hunter judges, not Arab judges. It’s just that the hunter pleasure classes predate the sport horse revolution, so we’re stuck with the “Arab == overbent” judging model.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxisops1s-8&feature=related
Has anyone seen this?
pinkanwhitepony- I have had them for years, though I did find one on ebay here is the link http://cgi.ebay.com/3-STAINLESS-STEEL-SNAFFLE-BITS-English-Riding-Hunters_W0QQitemZ150185364841QQihZ005QQcategoryZ47272QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I normally would jump in on a debate
but this is such a touchy topic right
now I will stay out of it.
But on one note: You do not need a full bridle to do upper level movements, but you do need to show in one. ( I have competed at Prix St George on an OTTB that was also my wonderful partner in Grand Prix
Show Jumping , and Advanced Eventing.)
You also do not need a big bit for hot horses for jumping. Most of the time you just need to do more flat work, grids, or try another caveson . There are a few horses that do need larger bits, but they are truly far and few.
Ok, pinkandwhitepony, fine- I think we probably agree about most of this stuff. But unfortunately, my horse did come with a lot of baggage. I wish he didn’t- it completely sucks to be dealing with crap someone else did to my horse and makes me think very poorly of the racing industry. He’s the third OTTB I’ve owned, and just one of many, many others I have ridden over the years, and I’m sorry- he is incredibly difficult, full stop. I’ve had people such as Greg Best tell me so and (thankfully) confirm that we’re on the right track during clinics. He’s just a big challenge.
Further, at this point I can do just about anything with him on the flat- our homework is complex and intricate and designed to keep his clever little mind focused on what we are doing instead of trying to outthink me. After the first year, where we were just trying to give him the basics of being a H/J horse instead of a racer, get rid of his ulcers, fix his long toes, build up his top muscles to get rid of his upside down neck and concave butt, and teach him how to go right, we just did basic stuff- slow and simple. Then we started with the more complex training. We now collect, extend, leg yield, serpentine our way down the quarter line, do voltes around the fences, flying leads in small figure eights- everything. He loves this stuff and gets completely into it. So no, despite his natural talent and how easy he is to train, I didn’t rush him. It would have been easy to do so because he is actually quite sensible and is totally unfazed by anything I’ve jumped him over thus far- but rushing a stubborn, sensitive horse is stupid, and we didn’t do it.
Having said that, jumping is still a different ball of wax and he gets strong and antsy. Given that I am not of the run and jump persuasion of jumper riders, to me, slower is better. To my horse, slower is stupid and why aren’t we going faster to these jumps?! We’ll get there someday- he’s just going to take longer.
So, honestly- since I am only one of thousands of riders who have athletic, talented, difficult horses, why is it so hard to admit that perhaps some of us *don’t* take shortcuts, don’t rush our horses, give them wonderful care in a relaxed yet professional environment, take them on trail rides, make sure they have all day turnout with a buddy, get them chiropractic and acupuncture every time the season changes, make certain we do our homework, blah blah blah- and yet, we still have not managed to somehow convert our strong-willed beasties into Bambi in equine form. I’d love that- I am too old to think I’m cool because I have the difficult horse, he is just what I ended up with, and I’m what he’s got. He is who he is, and a lot of his spark goes into his incredible jump, so we deal with it as just a part of him.
My horse was one step away from the meatman when I bought him- and I’ve never regretted it. My whole goal for him, always, is to convert his distrust of humans into trust and to build a strong, harmonious relationship between us. Over-bitting him would be about as useful to me as kneecapping him, but under-bitting him is stressful for both of us because then we have to wrestle. A bit that he pays attention to, however, allows me to ride him with light, consistent contact and him to jump even better because he relaxes his back and breathes.
So, please, come out and ride my fabulous boy in a snaffle. He’s really fun to ride- so far, we’ve found that I can lope him up to a four foot oxer without much effort on his part and he’s incredibly powerful and balanced. But short of rewiring his little brain or turning me into a 300 pound guy with hams for upper arms, we’re not going anywhere in a snaffle.
my3arabs:
what is going on between this horse and rider.
Aside from the fact her horse drops gait several times, rushes himself a couple times, he’s inconsistent through his neck and travels slow behind, and she often rides with her hands resting (pulling from) her thighs, her heels cue from the bottom of her saddle pad a couple times, and has kind of an awkward, wandering routine (I’m dizzy from circles)… it looks like a freestyle routine. Maybe not the best, but probably not the worst. The horse looks “broke” by western standards, but a little excited, like given half a chance he’d leave town for a nice hack in the next county. He certainly doesn’t look unhappy, though!
Just watched the video of halfpassgirl. She most certainly demonstrated alot of patience, at least what was shown on the video. Have one gelding who likes to “play” by doing the Whizziecrowhop, such fun, and my mare who is a little cold-backed and will do her version of a crow-hop when not happy. Can be very annoying. So many people will get abusive in situations where the horse misbehaves as the ones in the video were doing.
As far as the Anky Spanky stuff, I hate to see this. I do not and have never ridden Dressage, I ride Hunters. Where I am and have shown, behind the vertical and tail wringing is bad, bad, bad. I know, my mare, will curl-up into a ball, swish her tail and pretty much go up-and-down if she isn’t relaxed. It all comes from the proper use of leg. I realize that Dressage has differences, but to me, all proper Horsemanship evolves from the same basic principles.
I once rode with a trainer whose motto was, get a stronger bit if your horse isn’t doing right. After she left, I had the priviledge to work with a tainer who taught me to use my leg and position. After our first lesson (I had my boy in a pelham), he told me for any other lessons, to have on a plain D-ring snaffle or don’t come. I sure miss him (he moved to Southern Pines, NC). He was also a rider who could get on the toughest horse around, and no his position wasn’t the best, but he was like iron and he could show the most difficult horses at their very best (not showing in EQ classes). Seems like Halfpassgirl is moving that way.
Anky getting bucked off – have not read all the posts but found this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5KIL6HjXP4
For years and years the training equipment de rigueur in the Arabian world has been draw reins with a tiny bridoon or curb bit, and these horses are kept so behind the vertical at all times the only time they are out of that getup is during a class.
Oh god, that’s one of my biggest pet peeves: draw reins on a curb, followed closely by a running martingale/training fork on a curb. It just tells me that people just don’t understand the proper action of those bits and haven’t bothered to teach their horses how to give properly in them. (insert fist shaking here)
ya know what…I’ve seen that painful look beofore…but where….think…think..AH! That’s the same look my husband sees in me when I where my 3″ heel boots! Ah yeeeesssss…I LOOK good in them, but the pain..or as I always say, “I must be looking pretty hot cuz these boots are killing me”
I worked for a dressage trainer for 2 years in trade for training for myself and my horses. I never once saw her use this method with lower or upper leverl dressage horses, and she had trained with numerous trainers in Germany and the US. She was certified with the USDA and some german certification (can’t rememer the name). All horses were schooled in a snaffle until the week before the show, then they were ridden in a pelham.
I learned correct and continue. You can’t dwell on mistakes or horses acting up.
Hmmph…all one has to do is remember how a horse’s eye focuses and one would know that a horse, with it’s chin in it’s chest, cannot see where the hell it’s going!!! So obviously having the horse “behind the vertical” is NOT the proper way to have it hold its head. As for old “Anky”, I would presume she only gets on the horse in the surrounds of an arena with walls, and no escape for the horse (no pasture riding here!!!) and so she’s never really in danger of a runaway. Probably gets handed her horse fully groomed and tacked, and never, NEVER gets those old jods dirty! As for the AQHA pleasure horses…I have a problem with their reins so loose…in case of a problem, one’s going to have to grab a lot of rein to regain control. Nuf sed. More often than not (IMHO), in all types of riding, it’s who’s on top of the horse rather than how the horse performs! I do NOT show, but I’ve watched enough to see that happening. The really “fair” judges seem to NOT be called to judge the really “important” shows!
Also one of my pet peeves, if you are going to use “training equipment” use the kindest bit possible. I do ride some in draw reins on one of mine, but the bit is a basic D-Ring snaffle. I have seen people ride in draw reins or a chambon (?) with a Kimberwicke, what’s up with that (I hate that bit anyway), no wonder the horses ended up as Freak-Heads.
Just wanted to put in a clarification about the double bridle.
A double bridle has two bits: a snaffle and a curb. Thus, double-bridle.
The curb on the bridle is properly used like a stud chain, i.e., not much. 99% of the time the rider should use the snaffle. I personally use it as a correction for when the horse does not stop when I close my knees or as a one second reminder when a horse is not responding to the outside rein.
The ideal is to have the horse on the snaffle 100% of the time.
mattsontraining.net: Thank you! Twice actually.
I guess I was taught to ride in a different way from most of the people around me.
Hate Rollkur- especially hate LOATHE, the noseband they have “invented” specifically so they can winch the horses mouth so tight shut it cannot evade the bit- all these horses are, without exception, wearing one- look close and you will see what I mean- I’ll try to find a link to a saddler showing one in detail.
That being said I have to take task with a few things said the first being
“if you cant ride control a horse, ANY horse, walk/trot/canter in a french link snaffle, then you cannot ride that horse”
Nonsense, utter nonsense, sorry.
A snaffle is HALF of a bridle the curb makes the bridle complete.
Used correctly ( I was taught to ride at a time when Double Bridles were always used ) they are a way to balance as well as control a horse.
Trouble is, very few people nowadays now how to use them…correctly!!
If a snaffle had been capable of controlling a horse properly then the curb bit would never have been invented- as it was it was the biggest single breakthrough since the the invention of the harness collar (as opposed to yoke) and up to the invention of the stirrup.
As with everything, misuse causes problems- the snaffle can be an evil and disgusting bit- MISUSED!!!
Lastly- a Bridoon is the snaffle bit, not the curb- the two bits are Curb and Bridoon- the action of the snaffle is to raise the head, of the curb to lower it- used in harmony they control a horse correctly and sympathetically.
Kirri: That being said I have to take task with a few things said the first being
“if you cant ride control a horse, ANY horse, walk/trot/canter in a french link snaffle, then you cannot ride that horse”
Nonsense, utter nonsense, sorry.
A snaffle is HALF of a bridle the curb makes the bridle complete.
Why would you need a double bridle to W/T/C any horse? A curb bit only completes a double bridle, it is in no way necessary for a regular bridle or for basic riding. Maybe I’m misunderstanding your point.
mattsontraining.net said…
You also do not need a big bit for hot horses for jumping. Most of the time you just need to do more flat work, grids, or try another caveson
So I can’t use a stronger bit, but I can lock their jaw shut with a different noseband?
pinkandwhitepony said…
but I HATE HATE HATE people who put up the same excuses you just did, my horse is forward and excitable when jumping and omg he won’t stop and then if you watch they can’t collect their horses or extend the trot or anything else that you would expect to need while jumping anything bigger than 1-2 feet depending on your horse’s size.
I can do all of that on the flat in a snaffle, introduce jumps and try to do it in a snaffle my horse will laugh at you. Put something a a little stronger on him and I have my perfect horse again
Kirri, it’s a crank noseband. It’s next to impossible to find a dressage bridle without a crank these days. When I buy my dressage bridle, I’m buying individual parts so I can make it the way I want–no flash attachment, and definitely NO CRANK. As it is, my noseband is so loose there’s basically no point even having it on.
Regarding bits… flat, my horse goes in a German silver double-jointed dee. Over fences (and when he needs a reminder that he does actually have to listen to me), a hard rubber mullen mouth pelham. Which he actually goes in almost as well as the dee, as long as I’m not using the curb rein (and I don’t use it as long as I don’t need it). What I don’t understand are those leather loops that connect the snaffle and curb rings on the pelham so you only need one rein… what?? One of the things I really like about the pelham is that you can use as little curb as you need.. those connectors take all the discretion out of the bit.
soontobeeventer- I never said that you can not use a bigger bit. what I said is alot of times changing the noseband will fix alot of issues a horse has. For example: I have had horses that people have put in training with me that came with a Mikmar bit (if you have never seen one then do a search)as he was beyond strong XC and was ridden in a regular caveson. I switched him to a loose ring snaffle and a crackle (figure 8).
The crackle stops a horse from being able to brace his jaw and grab the bit, which was this horses biggest issue. Now which is harsher? The Mikmar with the regular caveson or the loose ring with the crackle?
What I was trying to say is experiment with a few things before having to go to the larger bits.
Will changing the caveson work every time? No. Does it hurt to try something different? Not at all.
I use crackles, drops, flashes, kensigntons, and lever nosebands on my horses. It just all depends on the horse. I also use everything from happy mouth bits to combination or Dexter Ring bits, it all depends on the horse. Heck you could not pay me enough to take my old Advanced horse on to a flat XC course in anything other then a 3 ring elevator bit with double reins! And he did dressage and show jumping in a happy mouth bit.
If a stronger bit is what it needs for some horses then there is nothing wrong with that. I just meant that alot of times people jump to the stronger bits before trying anything else.
pinkandwhitepony- your welcome! I love those toggle bits for youngsters.
I think a lot of people miss the point with Rollkur – it is wrong because it only tries to mold the horse into a ‘frame’ or ‘outline’. People unfamiliar with the true aim of dressage (to supple and gymnasticise the horse while maintaining the purity of the gaits) look only for what they think is the dressage ‘outline’. They think if the horse’s head is down and the profile on the verticle (and not behind) then it is correct. But dressage is not an end in itself…it is a progression towards a supple happy horse.
There DEFINITELY is a difference between ‘showing’ dressage and ‘classical training’ dressage today in most peoples eyes. People tend to break a competition test down and look at individual movements rather than the ‘flow’ of the test. *Dressage movements are not individual circus tricks*. I’ve lost track of the ignorant riders who state “Oh I can get my horse to do flying changes…easy!†Sure – anyone can overbalance a horse so it HAS to change or fall over. That is hardly dressage. Just because little Suzy can get her horse to sit and spin on it’s haunches does not mean she can perform a correct pirouette. The basic way the horse goes (how it gets from the end of a row of tempi changes on the diagonal to a collected walk at C) is just as important AS the changes and collected walk. How a horse moves into and out of passage is equally important as the passage itself.
Susanne Miesner discusses correct connection: (Excerpts from an article published in The Horse Magazine)
“In 2007 we have gone so far backwards that we only talk about what riders do to the horse’s neck and completely forget the principles that the neck has to be seen as part of the total horse. You cannot see what is happening with the neck as a separate part in isolation.â€
“To have a true connection is the goal every rider has every day with every horse, and if you find it for just a few minutes, then you are happy as a rider – because connection is much more than just what you have in front of you.â€
“The other problem is that a lot of people don’t understand the theoretical background to the concept of connection – they think a horse’s head should be down – they haven’t really absorbed that the horse should move from behind, over the back, over the neck.â€
“In my opinion, the connection and the frame of the neck, can tell very well what else is going on with the rest of the body. The connection should not be just one criteria of classical training; it is a synonym of the entire training and also indicates the mental stage and welfare of the horse under saddle.â€
“What are the typical mistakes in connection?
Going behind the bit.
Going behind the vertical.
Going over the bit.
Going against the bit.
Twisting the poll.
Those are the main mistakes, but just because the horse is on the vertical it does not mean that the connection is good.â€
“We need to be very careful not to ruin the natural balance and elasticity in our horses. Riding should be a joy for the rider, but it must be comfortable for the horse – otherwise there can’t be true harmony.â€
In future people train your eye to look beyond the ‘frame’ or ‘outline’. Look instead for the balance, harmony and relaxation that means that behind the scenes the horse is being trained ‘classically’.
mattsontraining.net that’s the only thing we’ve ever used on our babies and I wanted to try it on a hard mouthed pony to see if having something to play with would do anything (he responds perfectly to leg cues and weight shifts so a bit isn’t necessary but I don’t like riding with a bitless bridle much and of course all of my bits are 5 3/4′.
And hooray for someone else who realizes that there are different nosebands. We used the grackle, drop and kineton nosebands quite a bit at one of the barns I rode at. Flash nosebands only managed to appear on our dressage horses’ show bridles though.
soontobeeventer it the people who sit and whine that their horse won’t listen but when you watch them ride on the flat they can’t do anything with them either that drive me nuts. It took me lots and lots of bounces and one stride combos to convince my boy that jumping was fun without all the running (all in a snaffle and with very little ‘pretty’ from either of us). When I sold him he only needed a stronger bit for XC and even then we barely ever used the second set of reins of him.
pinkandwhitepony-
Do you compete in eventing or show jumping? You don’t happen to be from WI huh? Sounds like you and I would get along famously!
I live in VA and I’m surrounded by so many hunters I’ve wanted to pack up and move back to England. I competed back before I got my gelding but I ended up getting sick of the politics (I was showing hunters because my boy needed the experience and there wasn’t much else near us and god forbid they ever place a draught mix!).
If I’m ever in WI I’ll look you up though, especially as you seem to produce lovely horses and your child students ride ponies! Also, Irish Charm looks absolutely gorgeous and is exactly what I want when I have the money for another horse.
I’m still waiting on pins and needles for that video!
Phe said:
”
“Only if you don’t judge us western riders by Bob Avila
Just wondering, what is so bad about him? I’ve only seen him ride a couple of times, so don’t know much. His horses looked very happy, though…
pinkandwhitepony-
Charm sized out of the pony H/J. Such a shame to. To bad you are so far away I would just let you use her as she is the last one to get worked a day as I am trying to get so much done before I leave for Germany. I am going over there to work under a trainer in January for 3 months. I am going to ride under Florian Meyer Zu Hartum, and will also get a chance to show some of the young show jumpers over there at the indoors at Achen.
I don’t blame you for wanting to go back to England. The average horse that you find in the pasture is alot nicer then even the horses you find in some of the show rings in the states.
Though my client and I are trying to improve on some of the horses you find around here. Next spring we are breeding 3 of the very well bred mares to Cassini II. The stallion that I am training for her is a freak of nature for jumping. Free jumps over 6ft and has never refused a fence when I am working him (though the biggest thing has been making him understand that he is not allowed to rush the fences as he can get quite aggressive to the jumps when he gets into the groove. If you ever want to chat my email is vmattson@mattsontraining.net
I have never posted on here but had to when you mentioned HalfPassGal in your blog. She is one my good friends who I love very much.. and she is an AMAZING rider. Her videos don’t do her justice. I have always ridden western and she is the only dressage rider I know.. so, I have always compaired the sport to her. Lol.
Anyway, thanks for the praises, she deserves it!
..and love the blog! =]
I inherited my mum’s elf-like stature so I feel horribly tiny and stretched out a lot of large horses and because of my height there’s no reason for me to avoid riding ponies except for the fact that there’s so few here that they are outrageously priced. Ponies always seem to have more personality too and that appeals to the eventer side of me.
Good luck with both the stallion and Germany.
Here’s another Ann, reporting in
I have seen halfpassgal’s videos, and I find them amazing, especially her work with Sabi. I also love her video of her riding her gelding Kris around, bareback. He looks as if he’s smiling! I am impressed with her.
Now, did she submit an entry to the reality show? Which epidsode did they go over it? I have episodes 2-5 and not episode 1, so I might have missed it. Has anyone seen it online anywhere? I’d love to see it. Is he criticizing her position when the horses are hopping all over the place, or in general? Either way, I’m still impressed by her seat. I’d like to know how many other riders can stick on like glue the way she does. It will be very interesting to see where she is in the future as she gets more instruction.
I learned saddle seat from some good instructors and have also ridden arab western pleasure. I was absent from the show world for a few (!) years after having twins. Went back a few years ago just to watch and it pained me to see how Arab western pleasure horses are ridden these days. I absolutely hate the look of horses behind the vertical and that’s how they are all ridden. I don’t know why in the world that has become the norm but it hasn’t always been that way. When I showed the best were collected and on the bit but never cranked back like they are now. It is just as ugly as rollkur as someone has already mentioned.
It also pains me to see how most people ride saddle seat – it really has become a lost art. Very very few people really understand how to use a full (or what the dressage folks call double) bridle. They’ve got both bits yanked back, the horse is sort of set up on the front but not really collected or is over or behind the bit.
Wow! See a pattern here? yes indeed, the fundamentals of good horsemanship are true from discipline to discipline and if you don’t understand them, or choose to ignore them, the horse looks awful to the trained eye. This is true regardless of the tack, breed, or show class….it’s all just variation of the same core principles.
I used to be in awe of excellent dressage riders. It pains me to see the discipline corrupted as much as others that I have been privileged to ride.
Pleas tell me that you’re not using a curb to set the horses head into frame. I know what you mean about how at one time students were trained to ride using a double bridle. A curb isn’t harsh if your hands are light.
….”- the action of the snaffle is to raise the head, of the curb to lower it- used in harmony they control a horse correctly and sympathetically.”
This is a good point. Originally, a properly trained dressage horse could perform advanced movements with just a ribbon in it’s mouth. The masters considered the training most important rather than the bit.
…”Elliott Elijah said, “And on that note, my feeling is, if you cant ride control a horse, ANY horse, walk/trot/canter in a french link snaffle, then you cannot ride that horse. I understand if you need something more for a tough course or more difficult movements, but even if you gag your horse all around a 4ft course, or if youre only comfortable doing tempi changes in a double bridle… if it’s that bridle or the gag that’s keeping the horse from going apeshit on your ass at the walk, trot, or canter, you have NO buisness touching ANY of those tools.”
This is right on. I couldn’t agree with you more on this. My background is more Western than English, but the same principles apply, even if one is with contact and the other is not. If it can’t be done in a plain snaffle, then why move up to a harsher type bit? If a person has to resort to that, they already have problems and need to start over. If you have ever ridden a horse bridleless, then it all makes sense.
BHM: That was my point, but I seem to be too mad to get it across correctly so instead I just pissed off a bunch of people.
Not intentional, but most good/great riders don’t complain that their horses don’t stop or listen and are difficult.
I’d be very amused to see what would happen if a judge banned anything but a snaffle like they do in some events.
“Tail swishing has a lot to do with balance!”
Yes and no. Tail swishing also has to do with expressing emotions. It depends on how animated the tail swishing is. Also, there’s tail clamping and twisting that indicates that the horse is upset.
L said…
Phe said:
”
“Only if you don’t judge us western riders by Bob Avila
Just wondering, what is so bad about him? I’ve only seen him ride a couple of times, so don’t know much. His horses looked very happy, though…
He’s kind of the Quarter Horse world’s version of Anky, I suppose. Much vaunted, wins a lot, but he does some gnarly stuff when he’s not in the spotlight. There are rumors of several horses ending up dead in his barn from training abuse when he was here in Oregon. But of course, all that gets swept under the carpet because he’s soooo famous.
Someone mentioned Morgan hunters above..
I started riding Morgan hunters a while back. I love the breed, I love riding hunter pleasure. But I hate the overbent, legs trailing behind look. Only the front end looks pretty – and that makes it ugly.
I’ve done very little saddleseat. I’ve had no lessons in it, the majority was a friend having trouble so I hopped on. Turns out she was just over-using the curb. But honestly, I don’t know enough about that discipline to really do/say anything.
Dressage, I have been riding dressage for approx. 1 year. My huntseat (non-Morgan) instructor also believes dressage is the basis for -everything- and I wholeheartedly agree. Proper collection takes time. Some horses may pick it up faster than others, but no horse is going to get it in a week. Half-halts are your friend.
I was taking dressage at college, but could not stand some aspects of it so I withdrew.
Left-right, rocking, playing with the bit is all see-sawing. It will tuck the horse’s head down, but it does nothing for the back end.
Now I am taking no lessons. I really miss my nonMorgan instructor, however I have a disagreement with the barn owner (pregnant pony thanks to the barn owner) and don’t feel welcome. The instructor told me I am fine on my own, but I miss having someone correct me or to help me when I’m stuck.
..But that really doesn’t go with this post.
Merlin – That is one impressive horse, beautiful. He’s a Lusitano, I believe. At least that’s what the tags in the YouTube video said.
To quote a good breeder in my area on the subject of rollkur:
Every single one of my horses does that willingly in his stall three times a day. Why? because if he stretches his neck around to his shoulder, between his legs, to his haunches, and to his hind feet for a whole five seconds each he gets carrots and scratches in his favorite places.
Sounds like a better way to encourage flexion in your horses. I used to do the head to shoulder/head to haunch for treats on the ground with young horses. They weren’t always sure but they knew they got carrots/apples/horse cookies for trying so they did. We never tugged on them, we’d just move if they swung their bodies away so the treat stayed by their side.
“… There is a good book out now by a german vet Gerd Heuschmann “Tug of War: Classical versus “modern” dressage” Well worth a read.”
I second this comment. This is an excellent book that explains all the workings and physical effects of correct and incorrect dressage. Very detailed and comprehensive.
The other co-author is a dressage trainer and competitor who is part of a group trying to change modern dressage.
Also, the piaffe was pathetic. The horse was falling on it’s fore so badly that it’s head was banging up and down and it’s ears flapping back and forth with each step.
>>p.s. I am going to assume that most of the dressage riders here have seen it, but have the rest of you seen the video of Andreas Helgstrand and Blue Hors Matine in the 2006 WEG Grand Prix Freestyle? THAT is one HAPPY HORSE…< <
With her tail going like a windmill every time he touches her with a spur?? I don’t *think* so …
to bhm and anyone else who wants to know:
“>>p.s. I am going to assume that most of the dressage riders here have seen it, but have the rest of you seen the video of Andreas Helgstrand and Blue Hors Matine in the 2006 WEG Grand Prix Freestyle? THAT is one HAPPY HORSE…< <"
I actually posted that video earlier in these comments, and I completely agree, that mare DANCES!
K -thanks for posting the video link. I saw 1 good buck & a bunch of crow hopping. What happend to re-directing/disciplining the instant the horse misbehaves instead of letting it ‘buck the short diagonal’ ???
Unfortunately, was unable to find a video of Anky running down a band (much as that would have made my day)…so enjoy this, instead!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEsjPgJrg1Q
I certainly understand allowing different kinds of bits. I don’t understand forbidding snaffle bits after a certain age. If you can get the same results, why be forced to ride with a curb? ie, western if your horse is over age 6. For all that, why not allow me to ride in my halter if I want to! As long as I have control, why do they care!
kkstoop said: I certainly understand allowing different kinds of bits. I don’t understand forbidding snaffle bits after a certain age. If you can get the same results, why be forced to ride with a curb? ie, western if your horse is over age 6. For all that, why not allow me to ride in my halter if I want to! As long as I have control, why do they care!
I wonder how much money it would take to bribe some judges to have all horses ridden in a halter for a class like western pleasure or hunt seat equitation. ‘Course if people knew nobody would enter, so it would have to be a last minute thing. Hell, I’d pay good money to see Anky attempt a training level dressage test in a halter, especially after seeing the video of her fall.
I hate this form of Dressage. I myself have been riding in Dressage for years. NEVER have I ever used this new crap. I believe in the harmony between horse and rider. When the horse is truly round he is one with his rider and happy. Our horses noses never tilt behind the vertical. Quite the contrary, I like them a touch in front of the vertical. More comfortable for the horse to carry himself. And honestly, I’ve never liked Anky. I’ve also seen that girl with those “wild” horses. I’ve ridden many just like them. There is no reason to strap them down and force them to do something. You have to understand where that outburst is coming from. But I digress. I agree. This form of Dressage is awful, and needs to disappear.
I must say that although I think Anky is well past her prime and I think Rollkur is shit and a sorry short cut for real training, I also think this girl doesn’t ride well either.
Yes she is patient, but her hands have a death grip. She is jabbing these horses in the mouth when she is landing on their backs!
Her lower leg is so loose she is jabing them with her spurs every stride! And WHY does she need spurs with these horses?
I cringed as I watched her ride the buckskin in the “after” part as he was reaching into the briddle and she was blocking with her hands. Basically she kept popping him in the mouth!
Yes other people have made these horses into what they are, but she has not fixed them only taught them that their antics don’t work with her.
They would all be happier with a rider that could sit in the saddle and not let their lower leg bounce on the horse’s sides all the time. Not to mention a rider that has some give to their hand.
AlphaMare, the windmill tail on Blue Hors Matine is always happening, not when he applies spur, and many people (including, I believe, her rider) attribute it to her love of dance, balance, and natural rhythm. Tail waving really does help with balance.
It’s crazy
some of the heels on those dressage riders
the voice of my trainer runs through my head
“goddamn it girl, get those heels down! do you WANT to snap your ankle, lose your stirrups, and let him think he’s in control?”
Well, I’m just a “bit of everything english” rider. I’ve evented, showjumped, and the base of a lot of english riding is based on dressage. Jumping is just extentsion and collection.
I don’t currently have a horse, but I have re-trained 2 ex-racehorses. No.1 was 17hh (I’m 5’4) and the sterotype OTTB… I was told to shoot her before I got hurt… she just went forward (sometimes rather fast) and would chuck up her head if she thought she was being restricted too much.
I was told by a local “dressage” instructor to put a standing martingale on, or at least a running one, and just block really hard with the hands when she pulled!
I refused and continues to work on as lighter contact as possible, and soon had the nice quiet trot, rather than a freaked out horse.
No 2 was a small TB, about 15hh, who thought her nose should be carried at knee level and that the bit was for leaning on, or putting your tongue over!
I found an interesting way to stop the tongue over the bit. We have an old racing split noseband one of the ones that if the horse opens it’s mouth the bit is held up on the top jaw. Popped her on the lunge line, and let her realise she couldn’t get away with it, then put side reins on with very light contact and let her realise there was no point… took a week or two and rode in the bit too… a few months later she could be ridden in a caveson. The hard mouth thing was fixed by working through all bits that we could get our hands on, until we found one that she only needed light contact with. that was an “elevator” bit (?Pessoa gag?) with a rein on the snaffle ring and one on the botton ring – had to use the bottom ring a fair bit to start with, but over 18 months managed to get the horse to the point where she could be worked in most circumstances in a snaffle. However if jumping in competition over 4ft she needed somthing stronger (You could jump her at home over 4ft fine, but she got so excited to be out competing that she would fight a snaffle, but I think my sister rode her in a kimblewick and she was able to be ridden with light contact.
Also a note on running martingales. My Mum used to have most of her pony club kids wearing them to jump, as did I, and I often had one for eventing, mainly because if things go wrong and your hands go up (especially with some of the kids) the martingale means that instead of the horse having it’s molars removed by a kid trying to stay on by balancing off the horses mouth the force is still coming from down, rather than straight back or up… I may not be making sense, but there were some happier ponies with that, as we tried to teach that you don’t hang on with your hands!!
Daun, that video of the garrocha was AHMAZING.
Here, for anyone who doesn’t feel like doing the scrollnsearch.)
I would love to try that with my horse, but I will have to learn how to do this for all the times I have to get off to pick up the stick.
I’ve found the video of Anky falling off!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEsjPgJrg1Q
wooow!!!!!
Regarding swing up: that is the only way I can get on bareback, my prefered way of riding. As a kid, in 4-H we had to dismount and mount by jumping straight up. No way I could do that! Swinging wasn’t allowed.
At 5’5″ I can mount my 16.2 appy by swinging up!
The guy with the stick- did you notice he was riding with his legs and seat for control a lot? But if it were judged, he would get marked down on his pivots as there wasn’t an inside leg planted at the beginning ones. Sorry, don’t mean to pick it apart. It was pretty neat.
kkstoop
I envy you. The only way I can mount bareback is with a bucket, or a truck fender, or a stump, or a….. God help me if I have to get down when I’m out in an open field.
I think part of my problem with my mare’s crabby attitude back when I first got her – if I’d have tried to swing up (or hop up) bareback, she’d have turned around and bitten me in the butt. I missed out on my flexible years to condition my muscles to leaping up on a horse!
Wow, I had no idea that there was this sort of problem with the dressage world.. but it stands to reason. Thanks for posting about it, and I am amazed that anyone could think cranking a horses head like that would lead to MORE control, rather than less. wow.
I’m really NOT into bull-fighting. I think it is horribly cruel to the bull – I read somewhere someone who said something about (hahaha too much use of the word “some”) about using sticks with Velcro to “mimic” the barbs and the bloodshed – much better in my opinion.
However, that said….. that Merlin horse is just awesome – I get shivers watching him. I think part of it is the totally suitable music whoever edited that piece used (super editing job, btw). I don’t get quite the same feeling when I watch other horses who are just as talented. However, Merlin can MOVE, beautifully. It makes me want to run out and train my horses to move like that.
More on Merlin….. someone posted a link to the video on the FHOTD Training Forum weeks back. I’ve watched the video on & off since then. Not only is the horse fantastic, but the rider makes it look totally effortless – he’s not riding in the “YankCrank&Spank” (thanks, Taldera for that terminology) style. He’s definitely achieved a partnership with that horse. It’s like the horse is moving off of the man’s thoughts alone – and I guarantee that he didn’t use many shortcuts in his training methods!
I recall attending a clinic with one instructor, and he asked “Why do we use a double bridle at the FEI levels?” Everyone gave the standard “more refinement, etc.” responses. His then said, “While all that is true, the REASON we use a double bridle at FEI levels is BECAUSE THE RULES SAY SO. If you cannot collect the horse and perform the movements in a snaffle, the horse isn’t properly trained.”
That being said, there’s nothing WRONG about using a double bridle, assuming (big assumption, I know) that it’s used correctly. My old eventing Appy (9 years old when I purchased him) jumped and went cross-country in a snaffle. He was a bit difficult to rate, but easy to stop (As most people will realize, the Appaloosa’s favorite gait is “Whoa!”). However, he was a PITA in dressage. Long backed, which made him a good jumper, but consequently hard to collect and, frankly, he didn’t see much point to going around in circles. Show him a fence, and he was happy, but dressage, yuck! If you rode him in a double, however, he was lightness personified. I never yanked or cranked him, but SOMEBODY must have before I purchased him. Since I only evented him through preliminary, we continued to do our dressage in a snaffle and I continued to have my arms lengthed by him, but for H/J shows, while I still jumped in the snaffle, I did the hack in a double, and he was very light and correct in that bridle. I rarely put anything but the lightest pressure on the curb – he just knew it was there. So…. I can imagine what he must have gone through – but on the other hand, a horse properly trained can be as light(i.e., Brentina, who, to me, is the picture of lightness and harmony – but apparently too “dull” for those who prefer Salinero’s rollkur’ed brilliance).
Jimmy Williams had hunters who showed in a double and I have pictures of him over fences with just the lightest touch. Ladies riding sidesaddle are generally turned out with doubles, etc., so, as with most such controversies, it’s not the bit/bridle – its the rider/trainer that is good/bad/mediocre.
I’ve always loved the dressage performances of Mary King, Pippa Funnel and Carl Hester. Granted, its hard to find anything on youtube and I can’t find videos of much of their newer work, but still, their horses have always looked happy to be there showing off what they can do and getting cheered for. (Don’t know what their yard practices are now, but I didn’t see any rollkur in the dressage shots I was watching all last night.)
I need to learn that swing up.
My head doesn’t even come to my horse’s wither, will that be a problem?
OK.. had the time to look at somevideos of this… and this looks almost EXACTLY like what the worst of the Western Pleasure ‘trainers’ use on their horses to crank and yank on them. Seriously. There is one ‘trainer’ in my area in particular I have watched over and over at the AQHA shows, in the warmup pen and it seriously is enough to turn your stomach. the only difference is where the head ends up, but way down, behind the verticle, and crank, crank crank with a yank, yank yank is exactly the same type of method.
One of these days, I’ll take and post a video of her in the warmup pen.. and she basically also uses a SERIOUS high port western bit.. to the point where one new horse she was ‘training’ went around the pen with their mouth gaped open most of the time, they were so bruised up in there. so sad.
I’ve seriously thought about NOT going and working at these AQHA shows because I can’t stand watching her.. it is that bad.
so much taling about how terrible hyperflection is when done vertically, without mentioning that it is just as bad when done horizontally?
i have seen and read about trainers (western) who will tie their horses neck to their shoulder/saddle horn/tail or whatever, and leave it for a few hours here and there…. that sounds terrible too!
english spurs are NOT sharp. they are rounded and are used to give cues more subtile than the heel could do.
Anky may not be everyones favorite, but to say that she is a crappy rider is a bit overedge… she is a very good rider and trainer, who does what it takes to win.
Matinee ALWAYS swishes her tail, her sire does the same thing.
a snaffle bit can be just as brutal as a double one. it is the hands, not the bit. i have seen plenty of horses who have had their mouth ripped by snaffles… it is not about needing a harsher bit or a stronger bit, but about needing a bit with more finesse.
look at how barrel racers yank on their curb bits….
I have to agree with one comment on here. I think the eventing world has been somewhat sheltered from the Rollkur phenomenon. Until today I hadn’t heard of it at all. Let’s just say it’s been quite an eye-opener. As a long-time eventer and second level dressage rider, I am appalled by Rollkur and think it goes against every goal established by the dressage discipline. I am in south-eastern Michigan and like I said, Rollkur is not a fad here that I am aware of.
don’t know if it’s true that Matinee always swishes her tail, but I do know a few horses that do. One of my coach’s roping horses windmills his tail when he runs after the cow, and when he’s playing, as well as when he’s annoyed or anxious so it’s important to consider other factors as well.
to the comments about Blue Hors Matine and her tail swishing, my gelding does that when he jumps, like he pops over the jump, swishes his tail, lands, swishes it again like he’s proud or like he’s saying ‘heh, you thought i couldn’t do it didn’t you!’ (he’s under 15 hands and very petite)
there are a lot of reasons for tail swishing, I don’t think it’s bad for her, she really DOES look like she’s keeping time with the music!
I think part of my problem with my mare’s crabby attitude back when I first got her – if I’d have tried to swing up (or hop up) bareback, she’d have turned around and bitten me in the butt.
Hey, a little goose goes a long way! LOL. I have found that as long as I can get my heel hooked on the far hip, I can shinney the rest of the way over. It aint pretty, but it beats walking home! Since I don’t have springs to jump up over the withers, this works for me.
Someone mentioned that 14 year old pro-rollkur chick Jaccko14? Yeah.
I’ve been fighting with her for the past two days on the topic.
She simply will not believe that this rollkur shit can cause any harm to a horse. In fact, she’s so convinced that it’s good for the horses in question, that she will insist on calling anyone against it narrow-minded.
Oh, and she never answered when I asked why dressage trainers would ever want a hideous headset like that in the first place. I’m sorry, but no horse should have their head behind the vertical. I’m into arabians and saddle seat, and not even THEIR heads are behind the vertical.
And people wonder why I can’t stand most high-level dressage.
I believe that’s a “Grackle” not “Crackle.” Named after a steeplechaser it was used on/invented for.
“…marked down on pivot because there wasn’t an inside leg planted…”
But perhaps this gentlemen is riding the piroutte in DRESSAGE style which calls for the hind legs to maintain the rhythm of the canter. In dressage, if he were to pivot on the inside leg, he would be marked down.
Christina said…
Have people here seriously ridden hunter ponies in double bridles?
As in, two bits?
Not one bit, two reins? (Pelham.)
Yes. I learned what to do with a curb chain when I was 13. If my memory serves me right, they schooled in double bridles and showed in snaffles or double twisted wires. These were quality ponies who showed at ‘A’ shows (though not with me).
pinkandwhitepony said…
I inherited my mum’s elf-like stature so I feel horribly tiny and stretched out a lot of large horses and because of my height there’s no reason for me to avoid riding ponies except for the fact that there’s so few here that they are outrageously priced. Ponies always seem to have more personality too and that appeals to the eventer side of me.
I’m small too, and people always thought I was crazy when I would happily hop on the 13hh pony rather than a full sized horse. I rode a 17.1hh warmblood beast who I loved a few times but I felt so ridiculous on him. I’m sure we looked horribly mismatched as well. Ponies are just so much fun and there are a bunch of them who either are crazy and can’t be ridden by children, or have gone crazy because of yanking on their mouths/bouncing on their backs/etc. There aren’t enough adults who are both small enough and willing to ride these crazy ponies. I learned how to ride primarily on ponies. The other students in my lessons moved on to horses, but I stuck with the ponies.
Okay. I’m done with my “I love ponies” rant.
Mattsontraining.net – I used to live in Milwaukee and rode at Cheska Farm in Waukesha. You know it?
Haven’t had time to catch up by reading all the posts, but…
Anyone in the Arab S/H world heard of OKW Entrigue? aka Ricky? In talking to his trainer Patience Prine-Carr, she got him as an 8 y/o- supposed to be English horse (saddleseat). He hated it, never made much splash in the lower levels of dressage or S/H until they went upper level. He LOVES the difficult work and has since become pretty much the S/H division ‘poster child’. Never seen him trussed up like a holiday turkey.
There used to be a video series called the Horse In Sport. Jumpers, Dressage, Driving, Rodeo, Cutting, there were about 8 total in the set.
I can clearly recall Michael Matz, speaking on the jumping video about the importance of flat work. Especially in the early stages of a horses jumping career. He also briefly hit on the horses happiness. How even over low practice jumps if the horse is repeatedly knocking down poles and doesn’t enjoy his job, he isn’t going to do it very well, for very long, no matter how hard he tries to please his rider. In MM’s words from the tape- “You can hit me in the butt with a cattle prod, but it still won’t make me run like Carl Lewis.”
If they are unhappy in their work, the horse will either resign themselves and give up, or they will eventually snap and fight back. When they decide to fight back it is often UGLY. Fixing it is even UGLIER, and often Dangerous. Even then, there is NO Guarantee they are ever completely ‘fixed’.
The dressage barn down the road, advertises that their owners are trainers and one is an International Dressage judge. BFD!
Yet we see their horses constantly going round and around (in the full summer sun & 115+ degree heat at noon) riders hanging on their mouths, spurring them forward, side reins on the shortest possible notch, barricaded into their stalls as if in solitary confinement, and never allowed off the property unless going to a show.
Nope. No jumping, no trailriding no ‘down time’ for them. No turn out, no longing either. One of their riders came over and rode our cutters and was amazed at how when you sit and quit, (sit down/quit riding) the horse just stopped.
Also a jumper mare who came to us with bridle issues is jumping great in a french snaffle, and folds up under me like an accordian when stopping, when I say whoa almost under my breath. This same mare who is nearing 20 y/o has also finally expressed herself in play, bucking in turnout.
Sandy M has left a new comment on the post “Do you have to wind them up with their tail to get…”:
“…marked down on pivot because there wasn’t an inside leg planted…”
But perhaps this gentlemen is riding the piroutte in DRESSAGE style which calls for the hind legs to maintain the rhythm of the canter. In dressage, if he were to pivot on the inside leg, he would be marked down.
I should restate myself more proper that he still needed to turn around the inside leg. “Planted” was an incorrect choice of words but there still needs to be an inside “pivot” point.
The following was taken from http://www.cheval-haute-ecole.com/indexA31002.html. I wanted to make sure that I was correct in my thinking. His performance was pretty but he did not turn around his inside leg though the performance. Admittedly this is a difficult maneuver.
“In a pirouette, the forehand of the horse draws a circle with the haunches-in around the hindquarters. The outside hind leg turns around the inside leg, which continues to leave the ground and land on the same spot, maintaining the sequence of the canter throughout the entire Pirouette.
The horse is bent on the side he is turning to, the cadence of the canter is maintained and the posture stays even.
The Pirouette can be done at the walk, Piaffe or canter.
The canter Pirouette is a difficult exercise. It requires a lot of energy, limberness, submission and a great deal of collection from the horse. “
Leah:
My occasional problem is that if I’m riding a big, wider Shire/Belgium/etc in a dressage saddle designed for someone a good eight inches or so taller than me, I can’t always physically get my legs below some of the saddle flaps. It sounds kind of stupid, but I’ve had it happen and I feel completely outsized and insecure (plus the feeling that everyone’s laughing at me).
Sorry if I repeat any one’s post (pushed for time).
Hallelujah!!!!! at last, it’s so nice to know that we few are not alone!
I totally agree with the poster who laid it at the judges door….the rules state that the horse should not be behind the vertical, so why would you even need to practice being behind the vertical if it’s not required in a test.
The judges should mark them down, it’s a FAULT and should be discouraged. As for the ‘wow factor’, well, that’s just a horse sticking it’s front legs out as far as it can, with nothing coming from behind.
Fugly’s so right, they don’t look happy at all I use many pics of ‘names’ to show my own students how their horse should NOT look.
People have been blinded by the big warmblood robotics, gone are the free flowing expressive horses with presence and personality.
On a happier note, the FEI has decreed that crank nosebands will be checked in the collecting ring to ensure that they’re not too tight (big rider’s cheating way of keeping hold of big strong horse), and there are many ‘names’ in the UK who are also anti rollkur.
Let’s get back to basics, dump the gadgets in the garbage and ride with our bodies, some of us still do that!
I didn’t look at the YouTube so I was just going on the word “pivot” which is more commonly used when you’re talking about reiners spinning (pivoting) on a planted hind leg. From what has now been posted, obviously, he was doing a correct “canter piroutte,” indeed, a very difficult maneuver.
Sandy M has left a new comment on the post “Do you have to wind them up with their tail to get…”:
I didn’t look at the YouTube so I was just going on the word “pivot” which is more commonly used when you’re talking about reiners spinning (pivoting) on a planted hind leg. From what has now been posted, obviously, he was doing a correct “canter piroutte,” indeed, a very difficult maneuver.
Ahh. Reining, something Fugly can take on next. I really don’t get spinning. Actually, from what I saw, he did not perform the correct canter piroutte. It appeared that his axis moved around as apposed to staying at the inside hind. He did have good cadence. I kept thinking I would have impaled myself on that stick!
I CANNOT read those YouTube comments anymore; it’s pissing me off too much. “OMG! Like, Rollkur is totally the end to all of our problems, and there is absolutely NO WAY like all your silly scientific proof could possibly be true! And I am, like, a 14 year old trainer, so I know better!”
AHHHHH! Can’t.stand.it.
Fugly – this is why I love you.
Lauren_MI_Eventer said…”I CANNOT read those YouTube comments anymore; it’s pissing me off too much. “OMG! Like, Rollkur is totally the end to all of our problems, and there is absolutely NO WAY like all your silly scientific proof could possibly be true! And I am, like, a 14 year old trainer, so I know better!”
AHHHHH! Can’t.stand.it.”
I do not, as a rule, read the YouTube comments, mainly because I know that I’ll be overcome with desire to respond. I know that for the most part arguing with a 14 yo brings less satisfaction than banging my head against the barn wall.
Actually, using my head to fix some nails in the barn wall might be more enjoyable! Good idea!
off_my_planet said…
“Unfortunately, was unable to find a video of Anky running down a band (much as that would have made my day)…so enjoy this, instead!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEsjPgJrg1Q“
How about a translation?
Lauren_MI_Eventer
*heart*
I must say, any fourteen year old who thinks they are a TRAINER is full of shit. There was a fourteen year old when I was in high school who got some BULLSHIT award like ‘junior trainer of the year in our region’ and wtf? Fourteen does not have sufficient experience to train on their own and should be under an experienced professional, and if they aren’t, I really don’t think they should consider themselves TRAINERS. That girl from my high school? I accomplished more with the several horses my trainer had me work with than she did with her one TB gelding in half the time.
Ignore those idiots who clearly didn’t ever study physiology of the horse ever. This method is as bad for horses as bearing reins from the 1700s were.
Yes, one of my most favourite posts!!
I don’t know heaps about dressage, but I do know that there are some very skilled horses out there who hate what they do, and there are others that love it.
Thanks for posting about this! I’d love to see horses do fancy moves with a relaxed headset!
Rollkur was originally “made” as a stretching exercise, and when used right, it still is just that. a way to soften the horse over the poll.
unfortunately we are now seeing alot of people taing it and using it wrong…
Rollkur is not the root of all evil, but the people sing it wrong are not helping the techniques reputation…..
I doubt anyone here would disagree that stretching, warming up and flexing your horse is beneficial. It’s incredibly beneficial, especially for dressage, to have a nicely stretched, relaxed, and properly warmed-up horse. The rollkur, as it’s being used today, however, has clearly gone too far. I am no expert in its history (though being fluent in German might make it easier for me to investigate) but I doubt it was intended to be used long term, through full tests, in competition and to the point where it’s causing long term physical harm to the horse.
I’m surprised you are impressed with this girls riding. Yes she is a good little rider but she is still putting incorrect pressure on her horse at the wrong time.
She does ride the horses consistently which will work on almost any horse, consistently doing the same thing right or wrong will give you results.
I have watched her videos and was not that impressed. Like I said good rider who hopefully will keep an open mind and continue to learn better and more effective methods.
PS I forgot to mention, I am a dressage rider and I have worked with many trainers to find the right fit for me. Colonel Carde from the French Cavalry has been my favorite.
Lauren_MI_Eventer said…
but I doubt it was intended to be used long term, through full tests, in competition and to the point where it’s causing long term physical harm to the horse.
Ok I am not a dressage person and havent been paying very close attention to it. I am not for or against. The horse doesn’t look happy, but isn’t there something each of us do that makes our horse unhappy? They get pissy with us and say they are done and what do we do? We push and say no you are done when we are done.
But onto my real reason for posting. Last I heard weren’t they just doing it in warmups for competitions not the actual competition? I also haven’t seen the physical evidence that this is hurting the horses, I am not saying that it doesn’t just that I haven’t seen the proof that it does other than well it looks like it does. when I watch gymnists I think of how much the splits would hurt if I did them, but they don’t look to be hurting them to me.
Now my post is probably going to get lots very angry so my flame suit is zipped up.
soontobeeventer:
Take a look here: http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/why_not.php
There is detailed explaination of the effects on the spine, nuchal ligament, poll, breathing (or lack thereof, ability to swallow, etc. These are the physical effects I was referring to.
When I said I hadn’t had proof yet about physical injury I wasn’t talking to you specifically. The part towards you was the question about the comps, but I will look at that website.
Regarding the competitions, I haven’t had any personal experience with it where I live (Michigan), not to say it doesn’t exist here, but there are a number of people who have posted on here who have first hand experience with rollkur practices in the show ring. This is the reason why many people are calling for the judges to take a more proactive step to not placing or even disqualifying competitors using these practices in their tests.