Do you have to wind them up with their tail to get them to do that?
Nov 24 2007
Before I even begin this topic, I want to clarify that I have no experience with dressage.
Well, actually, I have kind of a funny story about it. I was riding at a barn that had both indoor polo and h/j/dressage horses in Chicago in my late teens. I became pals with another girl around my same age. She had an amazing big dressage horse. I would ride with her on the 14.1 hand Appendix QH polo pony I was taking care of. We were buddies even though she said things that made me roll my eyes at the time, like “you shouldn’t get on from the ground, it’s bad for the horse’s back.” (Admittedly, with age and experience, I have accepted that there probably was a kernel of truth to that, although I’m guessing that launching my 19 year old 112 lb. self onto a 14.1 pony mare was probably not throwing her spine out of alignment). Anyway, she thought the polo ponies looked like fun to ride, so one day she asked me if I wanted to switch.
Sure! Why not?
Well, all I can say is that someone should have been videotaping. I had never ridden anything but polo ponies at this point in my life. I had no leg, because you only use your leg in polo when you want to turn or go faster, and a lot of polo ponies overreact to any lower leg contact at all. I had never ridden on english-style contact. I pitched Big Dressage Horse away and rode with my lower leg off of him and he was hopelessly confused. He wouldn’t go forward, and he started bucking. Meanwhile, my friend on the little polo mare said HO and got a slide stop that nearly pitched her over the neatly pricked set of pony ears in front of her.
We quickly elected to switch back! And that was my experience with dressage horses. For years, I rode at various barns that had some dressage horses boarded there, and while there were some exceptions (and I did ride a really awesome, happy Hungarian Warmblood mare some years down the road), I started to see a theme: Pinned ears, swishing tail and an overall unhappy look on the horse’s face. Oh, they might be doing absolutely beautiful maneuvers, but they were pissed. They rarely got turned out. They stood in their stalls and snarled at passers-by. The barn help were afraid of them. They had a lot of lameness issues, they had a lot of back problems. I’m not saying all of them, don’t have hysterics now, but to the eye of a casual observer with no dressage training, a lot of them simply weren’t happy horses.
In the past few years, I’ve learned that even among dressage riders, there’s a huge amount of debate over training methods. Apparently a lot of people who do dressage do not care for the pinned-ear, cranking tail, death-grip-on-mouth look either. In fact, there is a name for it – rollkur. Now seriously, how educated of a rider do you have to be to see that these are pissed off, unhappy and physically uncomfortable horses? I’ve taught 10 year old kids who would be able to recognize the look on this horse’s face. When I hear that Anky whateverthehell got her ass bucked off, I think good for the horse. I’d buck you off too if you cranked on my face like that in a double bridle. (Before you all have a shit fit that I made that comment, yes, I think she is a beautiful rider, far more talented than I will ever be, and I’ve seen some video of her rides where the horse doesn’t look unhappy in the least…but I’ve seen others where the horse looks like it wishes she would fall off so it could stomp her dead.)
A story from another board – I’d love video of this. Anybody got the video?
“This makes me think of a discussion I read recently on another forum where I go to remind myself just how stupid people can be. The discussion was about Anky’s horse freaking out during an awards ceremony and not only did he spook and bolt, he would NOT stop and she could not stop him and was yelling for help even as he ran into the band that she had steered him into hoping they would stop him…and finally a mounted policeman stopped him with the police horse. So the argument on the forum was all about how everyone’s horse might bolt in those circumstances, and all kinds of ridiculous attempts to defend the number one dressage rider in the world who can’t even stop her horse where’s she’s supposed to in her test, much less stop him if he’s on the way to killing innocent bystanders. “
Again, I am not a dressage rider. But if the people riding in the Cavalia show can accomplish movements like passage on horses who are not wearing bridles at all, it stands to reason that it is not necessary to pull something’s jaw off in a double bridle to do it, right? I will say, those Cavalia horses looked perfectly happy doing it. I never saw a tail crank or an ear lay back. Feel free to enlighten me – why exactly is it necessary to crank the horse’s jaw into its sternum to win the Olympics? If you think you can explain/justify it, please comment. Or if you are a dressage rider and think it’s crap, feel free to say that, too!
I mean, come on, would you want to do this with your chin?
This is one unhappy horse. So are these.
What I think is funny is that I know the folks who do this (hehe, I’m picturing them having a cow that someone called them “folks”) can probably rag all day on AQHA training and how unnatural the head set is. Um, this is just as unnatural and if you think about how a horse’s spine is built, way more uncomfortable for the horse than peanut rolling. (Yes, peanut rolling is stupid too…but really all the horse is doing is trotting around with his head in the grazing position. This overflexed bullshit does not occur in nature. A horse would never choose to do this unless you were holding a carrot between his forelegs!)
Now, I have to give the FEI some credit. They are holding workshops and trying to figure out how to deal with training methods that may be abusive and may not be in the horses’ best interest. However, when they say that they need “A more detailed definition of what is to be considered as abuse is required, e.g. stress factors, pain or discomfort,” I can solve that one for them. Just trot ‘em out for soundness at the end and have a good vet and chiropractor assess them. Disqualify them for soreness. Everybody will figure out how to train without it in a big hurry if you do that! It’s like in AQHA…when they started dropping bits in the classes, voila, it pretty much solved the illegal bit problem! Nobody likes to look like an asshat in public, no matter how much of one they are in private.
Now, before you all think I’m just anti-dressage…absolutely not. In fact, one of the riders I’ve seen that I’m most impressed with is a dressage rider. I know many of you have already seen her videos on Youtube, but if you haven’t, go watch. Watch the absolute softness and lack of any temper this girl rides with. She is clear, consistent, has beautiful balance and as a result has been able to work through problems that I have a feeling a lot of the “Big Names” would have dealt with using a quiet call to the horse dealer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNMIz-RjJyw
Those of you who are so inclined may now commence having hysterics that I’m a lot more impressed with a 19 year old kid than Anky whatsername…hey I bet this girl knows how to stop a runaway without screeching for a man to save her!
I’ve always been a horse-centric rider. I want the horse to be happy and comfortable and willing. I’m a hell of a lot more impressed with someone who can accomplish that than with anything else in the world. I love riding, I’m grateful that horses allow us to ride them, and I want them to enjoy the experience every bit as much as we do.
Every time I see people making horses miserable because of money, or fame, or ego, it makes me want to puke, and I don’t care if that’s a pleasure trainer tying a horse’s head up over a rafter or a race trainer running a lame horse trying to make back someone’s investment, or a Big Name Trainer on a horse who has that long suffering look of a child star with a pushy mother.
358 comments to “Do you have to wind them up with their tail to get them to do that?”
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I agree if they are using it in a test then they should be disqualified. As for using it in the warm up and then showing without using it in the test, I dont think they should be penalized for it until there is a rule saying no rollkur in warmups or something.
The paradox lies in the fact that it’s being over-used. So even if a competitor (low level or upper level, doesn’t matter), “doesn’t use it in the show ring,” the damage is still being done outside of the show ring, and the question I have is if the horse can ever truly recover from it? I have a problem with the riders using it all the time. I do not have a problem with stretching, warming up, riding deep (occasionally), etc. Hopefully this makes sense.
I agree I think it is being over used. Whether it can be fixed or not Idk. I looked at the site you posted and the only problem I saw is that they never really showed what happened to the horses neck in a true dressage frame where the head is exactly on the verticle, the pictures were either poked out or way behind.
There is a petition being circulated in the US and abroad to ban rollrur on show grounds at FEI competitions:
Petition to the FEI Petition [ powered by iPetitions_com ].mht
It has nothing to say about what people do at home, of course, but would at least prevent the HOURS of rollkur that serve as a “warm up” before competitions.
HalfPassGal also has a beautiful young warmblood who suffered a lameness no one thought would be overcome a while back.. but he is, I believe, sound now due to her care. She’s a really great rider and an even greater horseperson. Also a surprisingly excellent photographer: http://www.halfpassgal.com
I don’t know of nor have I heard of anyone who actively rides a horse in rollkur during the actual test, except, perhaps, in an “emergency” situation (The story is that it started with N. Uphoff trying to control the apparently very spooky Rembrandt by riding him “deep”). So, obviously, the judges can’t penalize it in a test because it isn’t done in a test. “Momentary” behind the vertical moments are usually excused, and of course, you have the halo effect – if you are an Olympian and Gold Medallist, the bobble that is a 5 or 6 for someone else, remains an 8for you.
Most of the use of rollkur appears to be in training and in warm-up. The general argument about “only experts like Anky” should do it, seems to come from the fact that while she may ride the horse in rollkur in training (“only for a few minutes” – but videos say otherwise!!), she is able to ride the horse “up” for the actual test. Thus, there have been requests for tighter observation BY THE JUDGES of the warmups, etc. – and now Ms. Coby van Baalen and the “Power and Paint” lungeing incident – I LOVE that one -she “didn’t immediately notice” that the pony’s nose was strapped to its chest but when she did “in a few seconds” she corrected her student’s error? But the photographer has pictures taken over a 10 minute period? Uh-huh.
And of course, we lowly types (like myself, having only shown to 2nd level, schooled 3rd, had a few rides on FEI schoolmasters) can’t have an opinion, because we don’t have Anky’s skill…. sigh….
Still, at least locally, while I do see some “spank and crank” riders rewarded, because they don’t obviously “do it” in the test and their horses are of high quality and lovely movers, mostly, good riding DOES get rewarded. I scribed for a Dutch judge who very much admired a MULE and scored it fairly for it’s correctness, AND much admired its relaxation (you shoulda seen those ears flop at the canter!), saying “we should see relaxation like that in the horses!” So, I guess its a double-edged problem: On the local level, not so much – but with the higher ups, pressed to keep their Olympic standing by producing FEI horses as quickly as they can, etc., it MAY (I’m not there in Europe so I don’t KNOW) be “whatever works” and they have the skill to get away with it, while others continue in a more correct (let’s say correct, rather than classical) manner.
I suppose the bigger problem is how many of the subsequent layers of trainers/students succumb to that desire for quick success, and “all the big names do it”, etc., etc., and the horses suffer.
In his book Dressage for the 20th Century, Paul Belasik has little good to say for riding “deep” and he has produced TBs that do correct “airs above the ground.”
Um… I think that’s “Dressage for the 21st Century.” Whoops.
Great post, Sandy M.
That “halo effect” is a bitch, eh?
Sandy M said: I scribed for a Dutch judge who very much admired a MULE and scored it fairly for it’s correctness, AND much admired its relaxation (you shoulda seen those ears flop at the canter!)
Send that judge to VA please! I was ‘excused’ from more than one show ring because my horse didn’t fit in even though he was very well behaved and we had obeyed all of the judge’s requests. The rest of the time we were ignored and left out of the ribbons completely. Judges who don’t place horses because they aren’t the norm make me so mad.
cruel or not, the hyperflexion of the neck is BEAUTIFUL. Not that I support discomforting a horse for beauty, but it does look nice. I don’t do dressage but if I did, I would not practice that.
Here’s the part that kills me.
These people work off the arrogant, patently absurd assumption that they need to teach a horse how to move.
I spent years observing newborn foals every night. Within a few days of being born they can run faster than any human being.
Here’s a news flash : A horse already knows how to move .
You can rope am 800 pound steer off one and it won’t even break stride.
I would like to take these anal-retentive “Ve haf vays of squashing you into ze collected frame” control Nazis and tie the to a chair and make them watch me ride my horse , bareback and bridle-less , all stung out like a drunken camel and happy as a clam at high tide.
And another thing……..
One of the top ten reasons dumbass wanna-be elitists give for doing the dumbass things they do is ; “That’s the way they do it in Europe.”
Look : Frenchmen consider horse meat a gourmet meal and Jerry Lewis in “The Nutty Professor” a cinematic classic equal to “Citizen Kane”.
The vast majority of our ancestors left everything and everyone they knew and loved and got on dirty smelly boats and came over here. Because over there life sucked and then you died.
We need to get over this collective inferiority complex .
Here is Merlin on his owners web page- I don’t speak spanish so cannot translate
http://www.pablohermoso.net/cuadmerlin.htm
I just had an idea!
Rather than doing or saying anything about hyperflexion, why not make a rule that all nosebands must be loose enough to pass a 35mm diameter glass or steel marble between the noseband and the front of the horse’s nose while on competition grounds?
That would be a noseband fitted loosely enough to place two fingers between the horse’s skin and the noseband and would not substantially restrict the horse from opening its mouth.
Or, even more radical, ban any use of cavessons at the Prix St Georges and Grand Prix levels.
I seriously doubt that any of the horses I’ve seen in video clips that are trained extensively with hyperflexion could pass a test without a cavesson that did not strap their mouth shut. Some of them look like they’d be downright dangerous to ride if they had the freedom to open their mouths.
If the FEI made such a rule, how many riders do you think would either abruptly retire their current horses or abruptly retire themselves?
I think that (a) these horses have been rollkur’d into submission sufficiently that the state of their cavessons wouldn’t make much different; and (b) even if their mouths were open, they’d still get winning scores…. cal me cynical, but….
As someone who DOES follow dressage and who DOES understand a little bit more than simply knowing the difference between a piaffe and a Pitbull, which it sounds like many of those who have commented DO NOT, as well as a fan of Anky VAN GRUSVEN, for those who can’t pronounce her name or know who she is, let me say that the photos shown do NOT represent her in any way, shape or form! She is an excellent rider, has EXTREMELY light hands, and IF those photos are indeed of her (and the face has been blackened out, so WHO KNOWS FOR SURE), they were taken and used out-of-context. I have never yet read or heard about her horse bolting for the band, as was stated, but yes, one of her very green horsss DID spook a bit at an warding of her FIRST PLACE at the Olympics and danced (pranced) around a bit, but was still totally IN CONTROL.
Seems to me that those who diss Anky are not only jealous, but don’t have a clue as to what they’re even viewing. Anyone can be aboard a horse that tucks it’s head for a moment or pins an ear, and that does NOT mean that it’s unhappy or that the rider is “reefing” on it’s mouth.
There was a video featured on U-Tube recently and almost everyone who watched it was in AWE of the mare’s performance, yet failed to notice her tail wringing constantly during EVERY movement! I believe it was the Pan Am games, but not sure.
“This overflexed bullshit does not occur in nature. A horse would never choose to do this unless you were holding a carrot between his forelegs!)”
As you conclude from years of studying wild horses at liberty, no doubt….
http://www.miravalandalusians.com/sales/8281zartrot.jpg
http://www.andalusianlascamelinas.com/images/milamores2.jpg
http://www.sacredspringsfarm.com/2004_new/othello.jpg
http://www.vintageiberia.com/lavrador/img5.jpg
http://jackiechant.instructor.parelli.com/images/Playing%20at%20liberty%20croped.jpg
http://www.classicaldressage.com/horses/images/nimbus/nimbus2001-001.jpg
I’ve seen horses at liberty flex far more than anything else I’ve ever seen. Horses can almsot bend over double when they’re playing together, and believe it or not, it does happen at liberty.
I’m not condemning or approving the riding method. There’s good and bad in every training method and while I don’t necessary see the ZOMG!EVIL in the flexion/rollkur/LDR/whatever the fuck you wanna call it, I’ll readily agree that yanking on a double bridle to achieve it is not the way. Nor should you demand from a horse the biggest flexion form the get go, however, if muscles are trained and warmed up properly I think they’re capable of a lot more than most people give them credit for.
As with everything horse related, I think moderation and training is the key, here as well.
It should be fun for the horse to do it, if it doesn’t enjoy doing what it’s doing, find something else for the horse to do.
And we all know Anky can’t really ride well, she’s just been very lucky with her horses, she’s never brought on a young horse or dealt with a problem horse in her life…
For that matter, this goes for most olympic riders in all disciplines.
Didi – the bolting horse incident did occur(and apparently has occured more than once), though not occur at the Olympics, though it was a GP horse, indeed, Salinero, and he WAS out of control and Anky did require assistance to get him stopped. And Blue Hors Matine was the horse with the swishing tail and the film was not at the Pan Am competition since, obviously, Matine is a competitor from a EUROPEAN country. Seems you don’t follow dressage QUITE as closely as you claim.
Sandy M………..If you have read my comment accurately, you would have noticed that I said I “believed” the competition with the grey mare was the Pan Am games, but wasn’t sure. So, if you’re going to criticize what I say, then please do so based on what I acually did say. What difference does it make in the first place? My statement was meant to reflect that those who are bashing Anky seem to be those who, by their own statements, admittedly know little to nothing about dressage, and used the grey mare as an example of this, since there have been dozens upon DOZENS of posts online about what a GREAT performance that one was.
Moving on………I obviously cannot state for certain that the incident of the “bolting” never happened, since I doube anyone has witnessed every performance of Anky’s, but the details are very hard to believe based on every dressage competition that I have watched, both in person, AND on TV or U-Tube has had the music provided via canned tapings which have been provided by the exhibitor, and NEVER with a live band. Kind of hard to imagine the horses being able to bolt into a band that isn’t there. Now, if someone can provide a video of that, or a link TO such a video, I’d indeed be interested in watching it.
I really don’t have the time, nor energy to read every comment in this blog, nor even want to, and only knew of it’s existence after a friend e-mailed me about Anky being dissed by people who are probably flat out jealous wannabe’s. I have to agree! I doubt Anky is aware of what is being said about her, but if she is, she’s probably laughing her ass off and not the least bit concerned about what a bunch of people with little to no knowledge of the sport criticizing the number ONE dressage rider in the world!
As far as the flexing of the horses being so unrealistic and never seen in “nature”, that’s ridiculous. I doubt many of the movements are seen “in nature”, but what’s the point? Actually, if you’ve ever watched two stallions “squaring off” against each other, they often flex their necks even more than this, and I’ve seen my own Arabian stallion doing exactly this when “talking” to a mare, and he is NOT being forced to do so, nor is he wearing a double bridle, which, by the way, is no more severe than the hands of the rider using it.
Not only is Anky one of the BEST riders I’ve ever watched, but she has extremely light hands and her use of aids is almost non-visible to the eye, so the remark about “we ALL know she is not a good rider” is also ascinine.
Forgot to mention………to the person who said “Everyone knows Anky isn’t a good rider”, but also said she has never brought a young horse up thru the ranks, etc., for the sake of “nit-picking”, in case you didn’t do your “homework”, Salinero was only 10 years old when Anky won the Gold in Athens in 2004 on him. That’s very young for a Grand Prix horse. It also was NOT Salinero who she was riding when video-taped having a bad ride and her horse went off in a bucking spree…..it was Nelson, another young horse who was coming UP in the ranks at the time.
I guess it’s always more fun to pick apart someone who is at the top and wait for them to mess up. I can only be thankful that I’m not well known enough for anyone to want to tape my episodes of hitting the ground and plastering them all over the internet.
Didi – you also said that you were more conversant with the dressage world than the rest of us. If you were so “up on” the dressage world, you would KNOW that Blue Hors Matinee is a horse competing for a European country and ergo could not be participating in the Pan American games. You may have “believed” that it might have been the Pan Am games – but that means you didn’t even know who the horse was and therefore aren’t so knowledgeable about the current dressage scene, since the YouTube video of her performance was the subject of much comment and anyone “up on” the dressage scene knew who the horse is.
Also, the bolting incident very definitely happened and was much discussed. There was also an incident where she was bucked off very violently. ON that occasion, there was the excuse that the warmup provided was extremely inadequate (though why, since it was a clinic rather than a competition, she did not request an opportunity warm up in the main arena is never explained). What? Horses don’t bolt with Big Name Riders???
Also, while admittedly a lot of people on this board will honestly acknowledge they do not have a lot of dressage experience but don’t like what they are seeing with rollkur (and therefore are NOT wannabes), and while I have not competed at high levels, I have ridden some FEI level horse and have competed to 3rd level. My recently retired horse won or placed in the USDF awards each year that he competed through 2nd level and was preparing to show 3rd when arthritis caught up with him (he started as a hunter and was only turned to dressage at about age 12 or 13). I have cliniced with past and present Olympians. While I would never compare myself to Anky in accomplishments, I would rather take Klimke as my model than Ms. Van Grusven and her rollkur methods. Being #1 in the world is undoubtedly an accomplishment, but others have been passing her up lately, and it will be interesting to see how things develop as the “powers that be” in dressage move to act against incidents like the Coby van Baalen rollkur lungeing matter and the effort to monitor warm-ups and discourage rollkur. I think the findings that it “causes no damage” are premature, and it is disingenuous to say that “only experts like Anky” should use it – because you know D**N well that horse showing in ALL disciplines tends to be “monkey see, monkey do” (i.e., peanut rollers) – and if rollkur’d horses win, that is what those whose goal is winning – rather than dressage as art in motion – will do.
I feel the overwhelming need to comment. I am NOT a dressage-wannabe. However, if by saying that a horse flexes at liberty you are justifying the rollkur, then I must say you are mistaken.
Only in 2 of those pictures did the horse have their noses well behind the vertical. In one, it’s fairly obvious that his nose will come out again in the stride. The second, being chased about by a Parelli nut? Doesn’t really seem to be liberty… and I tend to think the horse has it’s head back like that to keep an eye on the whip-wielding fiend following along at it’s tail.
A stallion flexing for a mare, and two horses squaring off. They are not being FORCED to hold their heads this way. They can get a release as SOON as they want. Also, most often, their nose is NOT behind the vertical.
Yes, occasionally a horse will flex his neck and position his nose behind the vertical. They ALSO sometimes stretch their necks and heads up – calling to mind Black Beauty and the check reins. Just because the horse is ABLE to put it’s neck into that position doesn’t mean the position is comfortable, good, or meant to be held for extended periods of time.
I can put my chin on my chest also. But, would I want someone tying it there and then running around on me? Um. I’m pretty sure I DON’T want that.
4horsesandholding: D’you think anyone has ever tucked their head to their chest and tried to move? I’ve done it trying to hold a paper there when my hands were full. Needless to say I fell after about two minutes and dropped everything. Its also kind of hard to breathe.
Like I said, I only ever expected any horse to do anything like that for me in his stall for treats and only for about 5-10 seconds at a time.
pinkandwhitepony…..
Yes, I’ve done that too. (both things actually, although I didn’t fall
) Specifically, stretching exercises with my horses. Absolutely there is nothing wrong with it. The whole thing is THEY are doing it, you may be motivating them to stretch a bit further than they may on their own, but in the end, they choose how far and for how long to hold it.
But you are so right, it’s VERY hard to breath with your head tucked down. It’s crazy how people defend Rollkur, when it’s so blatantly obvious (at least to so many of us) that the horse is at the least uncomfortable, if not in active pain.
4horses&holding – Obviously they’re crazy. I have to wonder what they did to the horse to keep them moving forward, if I did that while riding to stop a horse from rearing/bucking they’d back up waaaaay before they’re nose touched their chests. Probably something like rapping a horse to make it tuck its legs up, if it tries to back up someone behind it with beat it.
Sandy M…….Once again you are nit-picking about everything I posted. I don’t CARE what the competition with the grey mare was, as I said, and once again, what difference did it make? I was using her as an example ONLY. So WHAT if I didn’t know her name or didn’t state it? I also never, EVER said I knew MORE than “the rest of you”. I said I knew a bit about dressage and followed it. I said I knew more than those who didn’t understand the difference between a Piaffe and a Pitbull. That leaves a lot “in between”, doesn’t it? One doesn’t have to be an expert to voice an opinion, but one SHOULD at least have somewhat of a working knowledge of the subject before one opens one’s mouth. That’s all I was trying to say, so please stop attacking every detail of what I’ve said. I happen to admire Anky and think it’s ridiculous to make such a big deal out of whatever negative aspects of her professional life people can find. It’s almost like the “papparotzi” (sp?) the way it’s coming across, and yes, everyone can have a “bad day” with any horse at any given time, and we all have had, or we don’t ride, period.
4 horses…….I think you “hit the nail on the head” in regards to how long the horse may or may not have had it’s head held behind vertical. Who knows for sure from a “still” photo? Please don’t misunderstand me, in that I was not trying to “justify” rollkur, only saying that a horse flexing the NECK in that way IS possible in nature when at liberty, and used a couple of examples to show that. Another “for instance”…..I’ve read and heard that it is “unnatural” for horses to back up, yet I see all of mine do it whenever it suits them, and my Golden Retreiver does it constantly as well, not out of “fear”, but for his own “convenience”.
I have Arabians, and no longer show myself, but still attend shows as a spectator, and while I don’t like SOME OF the current trends in the show ring today, when one sees a rider raise the reins and “jiggle” a bit, or ride with draw reins in the warm-up arena, they assume that it’s abusive, yet the “raised” reins, etc., are not being used with constant pressure, only as a “reminder” to the horse, and the horse then proceeds to move out with “draped” reins (referring to W/P only, BTW).
Again, I don’t think it’s fair to take one or two STILL photos of someone applying pressure to a horse in a warm-up situation, and then display them as being representatitve of that person’s normal way of performing. If you look at most of the videos as well as still photos of Anky, you can see how light her hands are, and in many, there is even a slight “drape” to the reins, at least to the curb rein.
Don’t EVEN get me started on Parelli, LOL!
DiDi – The problem a lot of people have with Anky is that rollkur isn’t something she’s doing for five seconds and someone snaps a picture of it and posts it to bitch, there’s been videos posted by grooms at her barns and by people with access to warm up areas where the horse’s head is cranked in for 30 minutes or more. Were there only photos or the videos only showed rollkur for a minute or two it would be different. There’s one somewhere on YouTube (the original was taken down but there’s bound to be copies there) where she rides an entire dressage test (about 14 minutes) with the horse’s head like that (I believe it was a young horse she was training). Not only was the horse clearly unhappy but he stumbled a few times trying to change leads or slow from a trot/canter to a walk.
Pinkandwhitepony……you make some very valid points, and if founded, I can’t deny being somewhat disappointed with Anky, since that would say she’s changed dramatically from the lovely rider and exhibitor I’ve watched for what, now…….10 years? The first time, I think, was the 1995 Volvo World Cup, and she took my breath away!
I’m not saying that she wouldn’t or COULDN’T have changed, ie., succumbed to what is the current “trend” in order to win, or go along with her trainer (I understand she married him), and it wouldn’t be the first time that’s happened. In the “Arabian” world, I’ve witnessed personally, some of the biggest winners, THE most “popular” trainers do some pretty despicable things, yet people continue to put horses with them because they get “results”. They don’t seem to care if the horse comes home as a literal “basket case” or even worse…..crippled up, or washed up at the age of 5. So what? They simply go out and get another one. One reason WHY my 13-yr-old stallion has never been shown and barely “greenbroke”, LOL!
DiDi – A lot of really nice dressage/event riders have started doing things like this and pushing their horses into Grand Prix before they’re even ten. Its disappointing and a little sickening, however I must say that the handful of riders that I do follow luckily don’t seem to have fallen into that trap. Maybe they have and I just haven’t heard about it, but they’re generally the older riders that come from families where everyone rides and competes and the kids spent more time in the saddle than on their feet.
God I remember when high level eventers were being retired in their early/mid-20′s, now its about 12.
Pinkandwhitepony, I loved your comment regarding the age thing. Just an FYI, I last showed my half-Arab mare for the last time when she was 19 yrs old (she’s 32 now) and one of the reasons I started getting interested in dressage was the hope that someday I can show in that discipline with my stallion, since it might be easier for me physically (I’m 66) and it wouuldn’t be as political as the AHA shows are. He’s now 13, so I think there’s still time, LOL! i started thinking in that direction when I read in an AHA forum about an 85-yr-old man winning at the Natls. @ 3rd level with his 17-yr-old purebred mare…figured there was still hope for me.
DiDi – At nineteen I’m still one of the babies of the horse world although I had an amazing instructor as a child and she encouraged me to follow all of the major English riders. But I’ve known plenty of older riders and older horses who have shown successfully and done well. My trainer’s mother still encourages her less experienced students or ones who are experienced but haven’t shown previously to take out their senior horses to shows and competes herself at somewhere in her 60′s. Granted her work now is geared more towards bringing on the few babies they produce and the full time training of other people’s horses but she has worked with members of various Olympic teams and their mounts and I believe competed to Grand Prix eventing herself although I don’t know for sure as I don’t recall her maiden name, lol. I know it was up there from seeing pictures in the tack room of her jumping crazy things like semi truck beds with flowerpots on the or a fence with a Corvette underneath it on a smallish looking warmblood.
At 13 there’s still hope assuming his legs are good. I think a lot of the problem over here is from riders who don’t realize that muscles take 48 hours to heal which means you get two, maybe three hard workouts a week and only one of those should be jumping. Plus, starting babies. There’s no reason to be riding two year olds or even three year olds.
Sorry pet peeve there.
Sorry I should point out that their ‘senior’ horses are 27 (?) year old ex-racer Decagon (someone offered a lot of money for him at one point so I’m guessing he did well on the track), a 25 year old TB, 21 year old Arab, and a 19 year old Warmblood.
These horses consistently place in 2nd level dressage and in novice eventing. I keep asking if they found a magic pond or something for the horses to drink from as they’re all fit and sleek and way too energetic. I keep getting strange looks from them both.
TY for the encouragement! As far as C.D.’s legs are concerned, he has excellent conformation in the first place, and all that has ever been done with him is me “puttin’” around my own property on him. He’s a son of a U.S. Natl. Res. E/P Ch. and a “cousin” to a U.S., Canadian, and Scottsdale Ch. Stallion (First Cyte). He is too laid back for E/P, and I never wanted to subject him to the stress of halter, so figured dressage would be his “forte’”. My feelings are that if a horse is well-conformed and not started too early, they should be able to compete for decades. At 13, he’s been barefoot his entire life and never taken a lame step or been sick. Why not go for it? At my age, I’m not exactly going to push him very hard, either. My biggest problem is finding a suitable trainer in my area who will work with Arabs and is affordable. I can’t do it by myself.
I also LOVE your comment about being, “at 19, one of the babies in the horse world”, since I’ve read comments in my own horse group from those younger than you who come across as “knowing it all” and therefore can’t learn anything more, LOL!
Sandy M wrote: I think that (a) these horses have been rollkur’d into submission sufficiently that the state of their cavessons wouldn’t make much different…
If the cavesson didn’t make that much difference, why did they have to invent the crank noseband? Seems to me that someone sure felt like they needed to keep their horse’s mouth closed in order to feel the need to invent such a thing.
I’ve seen videotapes of horses being ridden for long periods of time (over ten minutes) in hyperflexion. The horses didn’t exactly look submissive to me. They looked more like they were sore, uncomfortable and more than a little pissed off.
Sandy M wrote: (b) even if their mouths were open, they’d still get winning scores…. cal me cynical, but….
I don’t think you’re being cynical at all. But I do suspect that some of the horses that are competing right now that are trained via hyperflexion would probably dump their riders in a NY minute if they could open their mouths.
Even the most political judge would find it difficult to give a winning score to a ride where the rider ended up on the ground!
Ack, to clarify, because when reading the posts this morning, it occurred to me that perhaps it came across that I was defending some of the pictures of Rollkur. Did it? The pictures I referred to in my post above were the ones posted by NL. (the horses at liberty)
DiDi – Eh. They’re teenagers, most teenagers think they know everything. I’m fully aware that if its not eventing or pony club related I probably haven’t got a clue about what’s going on in the horse world. I still won’t start horses even though I’m perfectly capable of it although I’m fine helping out and working with them after someone else has put around 30 days riding into them. I always have someone with more experience than me ride a horse I’m considering buying before I will; its gets me a valid opinion of any training the horse does or doesn’t have and stops me from drifting off into thinking about how ‘pretty’ the horse is and not if its suited to me.
Plus there’s nothing wrong with being considered either the ‘baby’ of the barn (even though I never was unless you only looked at the staff) or the resident darling as far as I’m concerned. Especially when I’ve ridden with so many great riders who were in their 60′s and 70′s and to whom I probably forever be a kid.
DiDi- where is your area?
Probably far away from me but it’s worth a try
My instructer does all around training/breeding/lessons. She works with Arabs primarily and is amazing.
Niki, I’m in the Puget Sound area of Washington State. The 85-yr-old I referred to previously worked with a trainer by the name of Melinda Thomas, and she lived near me, but she has recently moved to the other side of the state. I know of a few Arab trainers around here who claim to be able to either “start” a horse or take to “Training Level”, but I have already done that myself. I’m not capable of going any farther without help, and most of the dressage trainers don’t like Arabs.
DiDi- too bad. I’m in MA. My instuctor sounds just like what you need too! Good luck!
Niki –
Where in MA? I’m from MA also
Phoenix- Oh neat! It’s a very small town so I’m not quite comfortable posting it on here (you know – just because). It’s worcester county near the Quabbin.
Niki –
Nice, that’s gorgeous country
I’m in suburbs of Boston, I ride about an hour away from the city
Didi – I’m only nitpicking to the extent that you presented yourself as someone more knowledgeable about dressage than most of the people on this board, and saying that IF you were THAT KNOWLEDGEABLE about the dressage scene these days, you would have KNOWN who the grey horse was.
As for THAT horse – the trail flipping is, to me, hard to judge. I have known perfectly calm, engaged, collected and happy horses (mostly mares) that STILL would do that with their tail. In Blue Hors Matine’s instance, I don’t know whether it is resistance or just “the way she is.” Since she is pretty young for a Grand Prix horse, one tends to suspect resistance, but since she is a “she,” who knows. Parts of the test are quite nice, others, well… not quite so. DeKunffy addressed this issue in one of his books and conceded that some horses do that with their tails and it is just “them” and not necessarily significant of training issues or resistance. Hard to judge, except by evaluating the overall performance. And of course, despite the training scale, at the higher levels these days “relaxation” doesn’t seem to be as valued and tense horses win….so, obviously a lot of judges don’t consider the tail business an issue.
Separately: I don’t care for crank nosebands, but I do know some people who buy them because they are extremely well-padded. They don’t “crank” them – they just like having that padding in the sensitive jawbone area. Still – I agree, most people hwo use cranks use them because they CAN crank ‘em tight.
Sandy M……..once again you mis-quoted what I said and yes, you are nit-picking. I said that as “someone who DOES know the difference between a piaffe and a Pitbull and who follows dressage (which I do to an extent, but am not obsessed with it) and therefore knows SOMEWHAT more than many of those who have commented”……….NOWHERE did I say I knew MORE than everyone who posted to this blog, nor did I say that I was anything close to being an “expert”. I have already addressed the issue of the grey mare, and for the last time, I fail to see what difference it makes if I knew her name off the top of my head when posting the first time or not! With so many horses out there, I don’t remember half their names, especially if they didn’t impress me all that much.
I also said I don’t have the time, nor energy to respond to everything said in here, and would have been unaware of your reply if it hadn’t been sent to my “IN BOX”, but for the last time, I am entitled to my opinins, and you are entitled to have the “LAST WORD”, which you apparently feel the need to have. I’m done.
My mom and I watched a youtube video with Anky riding this grey horse. Firstly, this horse is swishing its tail and ears back the entire time. If you watch how they move and crank their heads now, it is the farthest thing from natural movement I have ever seen. Even the “extended” and “working” trots look unnatural because they are overdone. I don’t know much about dressage and don’t claim to, but that seemed really weird to me.
Ellie, that wasn’t Anky riding the grey mare. It was a man by the name of Andreas Helgstrand. This mare placed 3rd, and in fact, Anky won the event on Salinero, who is a black.
BTW, I said I was “done” posting to this thread, but just an FYI for Sandy, just so you will STOP nit-picking everything I have said, OMG, it was the World Equestrian Games, not the Pan Am Games. That changes the entire picture, doesn’t it?
I’ll be the first to agree that abusive training methods should not be used, and it doesn’t matter which discipline, either. All disciplines seem to have them, and many of those that show in them condone their use because it allows them to win. It goes on in the AHA world in almost every discipline, TWH’s, ASB’s, you-name-it. All I was trying to say in my origianl post, was that if one does not understand when a particular piece of tack is used, for instance, the double bridle, or WHY it is used, then they shouldn’t bash it’s use. If they think that flexion isn’t natural or never occurs in nature, they’re mistaken. However, keeping a horse in the extreme “frame” as is being done with “rollkur” for extended periods of time, I would have to agree is abusive. If Anky is doing this on a routine basis, then, like I said before, I am very disappointed. I’m just so in AWE of a highly-trained upper level dressage horse that can perform these movements with grace, rythym, and athleticism, and yet be relaxed and HAPPY.
DiDi – Andreas on Blue Hors Matine got second, not third
even better!
Really? That’s strange, because I never watched the competition, but after the video from U-Tube was posted in one of the horse groups I belong to, I watched it. Then in another video, it mentioned her and said she came in THIRD. It might have been the one featuring Anky as winning, but I’d have to go back and re-watch all of them, and really don’t have the inclination to do so. It’s not that important and I really don’t care, just trying to clear up the fact that it was not Anky riding her.
If it’s the video that was posted up here a few times, it’s the last olympics – i got the placings from a website concerning that games. anky was first, andreas was second.
I understand your point though, just clarifying
I was referring to the video of the 2006 WEG’s, not the Olympics, which I have on video, and that was 2004. I remember seeing Anky in her first class with Salinero and he messed up pretty bad, but he was very green. I loved her Gold Medal performance, but didn’t think she deserved the Gold, but what do I know, LOL?
“I loved her Gold Medal performance, but didn’t think she deserved the Gold, but what do I know, LOL? “
Hehe, agreed, on all points.
Hi all, I’ve been a long time reader but only got an account today
I am a huge fan of dressage, first off. Rollkur/hyperflexion has taken the elegance and grace out of the sport. Harmony and balance have dissapeared and I don’t see why these riders adopt such methods – when ridden deep, the horse is incapable of properly collecting himself. They’re tense and obviously unhappy.
These two websites are excellent and explain a lot about rollkur:
http://sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/index.php
http://www.dressagedisgrace.com/
Riding deep in the saddle can cause pain and discomfort to the horse. Taking short cuts in training often leads to the horse being behind the vertical.
In defence of Anky there is much excellent footage of her out there where she is not riding using Rolkur, the photo used at the beginning of this thread I believe maybe an old one now, as there have been forum debates that I can recall regarding this same photo. How many of us have made mistakes? Sadly, due to the internet and some very outdated material that is still around, a person will continue to be persecuted for ever and a day.
Also, because she is a recognised top rider, she often inherits horses from others to campaign, just because she rides the horse, does not necessarily mean she trained the horse
.
On the shortcuts issue and a horse working behind the vertical. We ground schooled our young horse (never had started off a youngster before), he worked beautifully just in front of the vertical, nice, soft and sublte, never hung on the bit etc. We then sent him off to a reputable horse trainer for under saddle work, two weeks later he came home and I hope you can imagine how upset and horrified I was to find him working with his nose just inches from the ground and really lugging on the bit, both on the lunge and ridden work.
Questioning the trainer about this, he then informed me that he ties down the head of EVERY horse he works! Why when some do not need it, instead of teaching the horse to work from behind and up into the bit = a soft and supple horse. He takes short cuts and teaches the horse to yield to the pressure of the bit from infront. Afterall, little did I know he had him plus two others already being trained at the time and another four coming in a week later. It took me nearly 12 months of slow and steady work to get him working happier, but our horse is no longer the soft mouthed horse he was, we are still working on this today, two years on and in collection work he tends to work behind the vertical, have to really work him hard from behind to have soften up in collection, but at least now he is not working with his nose 2 inches from the ground and kicking his lower jaw on each stride!
Sometimes persecuting the rider rather then the trainer is very misplaced
I’ve been riding in lessons for around 6 years now, starting in dressage and doing a few small schooling shows at the barn just to see what a judge would say about my riding/teamwork with the horse/ect, but just one or two years ago, I started taking jumping lessons. Just from what I’d heard, one of the ‘uses’ of rollkur was to keep the horse ‘on the bit’….even thought it kept them way behind the vertical. Personally, I think if you’re not even able to keep your horse round, then you should NOT be doing high-level shows and you should still be in the barn taking lessons.
As for cranking on that poor horse’s mouth in a double bridle? I’ve never used a double bridle, I’ve never really heard much about it, and I admittedly know nothing about double bridles, but from what I’ve heard they sound like they have a bit more contact with the horse than normal. If it hurts so much to have their mouth cranked on, I can’t imagine how Savannah would react to that…she snorts and tosses her head and tail around if you pull too hard in a normal bridle…. And I know even in the for-fun small schooling shows held at the barn, points are docked from your score if you horse is flicking its tail all over the place, pins its ears, ect.
Honestly, it’s people like this who are giving the anti-equestrian sports activists something to really whine about… and I know if I were that horse getting my mouth cranked on like that and forcing me into such a painful position, I wouldn’t let my head being bound hold me back, that lady would be on the GROUND! Kudos to that horse for not flipping out more often.