Genetics: It’s really not like playing roulette!
Nov 17 2007
There will always be someone who will argue with you forever that they got the BEST BABY EVER out of their fugly mare or sired by their fugly stallion. They have 50 stories at their disposal about how the best breeders get all of these crappy cull babies and you just don’t see them because they ship them to slaughter and never register them. (This practice exists, but it’s not that widespread and if you’re having a “whole bunch” of culls, clearly you’re not one of the “best breeders” to begin with) They have 50 more stories about superstar horses that came from humble roots.
(BTW, if I hear one more person use Teddy O’Connor as a justification for breeding grade horses I am going to throw up…THE DAMN PONY IS MOSTLY THOROUGHBRED. THAT’S WHAT HE IS. 3/4ths THOROUGHBRED! The fact that he is 1/8th something off the wall (Shetland pony) is NOT TERRIBLY RELEVANT. He’s a pony with a big jump and a lot of heart, good for him, that kind of athleticism is impressive and admirable, but he’s MOSTLY THOROUGHBRED. He is not proof that your Appawalkeresian is EVER going to be good at ANYTHING. And by the way, that pony was bred by one of the top pony farms in the business…people who are VERY knowledgeable about conformation and movement and show their horses and know what can perform and what the judges are going to like. It’s like COOKING. If you put ME in the kitchen with a bunch of off the wall ingredients, I sure as hell wouldn’t recommending eating what came out of there. Rachael Ray, hey, she’d probably come up with something tasty. Some people are experts and can get good results with slightly unconventional beginnings, MOST people AREN’T. **end of rant**)
OK, back to what I was saying…They use this repetoire of bullshit to defend their breeding program, which seems to consist of breeding Crap to Crappier – a breeding program predicated solely upon what someone gave them for free, or what they could pick up at the auction for less than $300. And often involving the justification “but he/she has such a good disposition!”
Let me enlighten you. The vast majority of horses, if they live in your yard and are not asked to do anything more than eat carrots and get petted, are going to have a good disposition. It is actually quite rare for a horse, particularly a horse living on turnout, to be a snarling demon beast. Most of the crabbiness I’ve seen is among stall-kept, overgrained and overtrained, sore, sour and pissed off horses. Often it’s horses who have an undiagnosed health issue like a sore back or ulcers. Wouldn’t you agree? Disposition is important, but without conformation and athleticism, it is not a good enough reason to breed.
All right, let’s start with a great example of how excellence equals excellence. Here is a really nice black and white tobiano APHA stallion. Note that while he is a halter champion, he has a great shoulder, good pasterns and can move freely from the shoulder. He has points in, like, a zillion events. Significantly, HE STAYED SOUND to get a zillion points – which to me is a HUGE reason to breed to him. If you want soundness, start with soundness. He has a lovely neck with a clean throatlatch, a cute head with little foxy ears, and overall he’s just extremely balanced and nice. Unsurprisingly, so is his filly. Look at her – she got it all, the balance, the shoulder, the hip, good bone, nice neck, cute expression and little foxy ears. This filly has what it takes to have a bright future ahead of her. A horse with good conformation like this can be suited for a wide variety of events, and that really helps it find a great home for life. As I’ve said before, a versatile horse can learn new events and disciplines with his owner. His owner doesn’t have to pass him along when they decide to try something new. We talked about horses we have as “lifers” and a common theme was the horse who could change along with the rider – the horse who transitioned from showing to trail riding when the rider got sick of showing, or from jumping fences to team penning when the rider wanted to try something new.
Now let’s look at the opposite!
A friend sent me this yesterday and my first reaction is WTF is THAT? Yes, of course, it’s a stallion. Why, you might ask? Yes, I think we are all asking that question. The best I can tell, this is because it happens to be a “double homozygous black and white.”
LISTEN UP: TOBIANOS ARE NOT THAT SPECIAL! It’s not like it’s some rare color you can market just off of that. The kill pens are FULL of tobianos. I honestly cannot find anything about your stallion that is OK. Well, hmmm. Maybe his front pasterns are decent? Hard to tell. This is, bar none, the worst neck that I have seen on a stud while doing this blog. Then we have his back end, with his sickle hocks, crappy hip and tail set on like an Arab’s. And I have to say one thing for him…he is shockingly prepotent. Almost every baby on the site looks JUST as bad as HE does. Look at this one! It’s his little twin. It’s going to grow up and look just like him.
People often accuse me of picking just the bad pictures of a horse. OK, here is a whole different pose on the other side. STILL HIDEOUS.
You know, I will give them this. They did get him broke out and he rides now. OK great. Can you please geld him now? I am sure he is a sweetie and will make a nice gelding. Please stop offering to breed grade mares for only $250. Please stop proudly showing off his grade mares and foals on your web site as though this was something to be proud of.
While you’re at it, can you please do the feet on that poor chestnut mare above?
Just out of curiosity, I looked up homozygous yak horse’s sire. Is anybody here at all surprised to see that I found he’s at the Wal-Mart of breeders…tons of quantity, low prices and no quality! Here is their ad. Come one, come all, come kill buyers. We bred a million of ‘em just running the range! But hey! They are cheap! 45 of ‘em, GUARANTEED priced between $575 and $975. Come and stock up and start your OWN crappy backyard breeding operation.
Seriously, if we could just stop the “mass production” breeders like this, we could put the kill buyers out of business. There would BE enough homes if not for people like this endlessly shitting out huge quantities of low quality horses and throwing them out into the world to any moron who thinks it’s a cute idea to buy a baby.
Since I’m sure some representative of the Lazy Ass Ranch will show up here and have a tantrum, let me ask you a question in advance: Why don’t you be responsible and change it to Pick a Gelding Day? If they’re weanlings, they’re old enough to geld. What exactly is your justification for not only breeding so many horses in this market, but also letting your culls – and if that critter above isn’t a cull I don’t know what is – go out into the world able to breed?
332 comments to “Genetics: It’s really not like playing roulette!”
« Previous 1 2 3 4
« Previous 1 2 3 4
Leave a Reply
You must be logged in to post a comment. Not a member? Registering is free, and you do it here!
forthefutureofthebreed said…
Perhaps Tobianos (at or close to their origin, which is virtually unknown) were heavily inbred/linebred, which would explain their ability to breed true to type.
Meh, at least you know what you’re going to get
forthefutureofthebreed said…
Here’s a pretty Tobiano halter stallion that seems to defy Tobiano type:
Tobiano Stallion
November 21, 2007 10:55 AM
___________________________
He is gorgeous! He’s also about 15 minutes from me.
My Arab was heavily line bred back to Morafic and Nazeer (not sure of the spellings, his papers are misplaced since I moved) – and it’s really quite funny, because almost any of the Arabian Horse World mags I used to get, I could look at horse and KNOW that it went back to one of those two stallions, they just all had that look.
I guess it’s because I don’t see tobiano as a “breed” or horse type, but rather as a coat pattern that is present in several breeds including Paints.
There was mention (maybe by FTFOTB)of tobianos not being QHs at their origin – then what is there origin? Do you mean there was an original “tobiano breed” for lack of a better word?
Mustangs have the tobiano pattern and they came from Spanish horses and eventually mixed to a certain extent with local ranch horses..
I guess until there is more genetic research, I will have to wait for a better answer
Guess I have been lucky to have had quality tobiano Paints that were athletic. But then if I’m a fan of this blog, perhaps that speaks for itself, that I don’t just pick any crappy horse either. haha
By the way, did anyone have any comment on the horse I mentioned in an earlier post – Gay Bar Drummer?
gaybardrummer.com (also promoted by the owner of A Tru Rolex (one of the horses that got this whole disussion in motion originally lol)
^
I just read something that said one of Cortez’ horses was a red and white…so the colour pattern came over with some of the first horses.
It also talked about the prevalence of Tobiano in draft and pony breeds, mostly in Northern Europe.
Sarcastabitch – I think you should amend that statement to “no one who is educated thinks that a draft is a warmblood,” because, since I help friend find horses, I am SICK AND TIRED of internet searching WBs and turning up Clyde/Shire/Percheron TB crosses advertised as “WBs.” I even got a Belgian/Haflinger advertised as a “warmblood.”
Sarcastabitch said, “It also talked about the prevalence of Tobiano in draft and pony breeds, mostly in Northern Europe.”
Perhaps that is why many Tobianos (especially homozygous ones) have the look and type of a large pony. That has been mentioned many times on many forums.
Very cool!
He’s a pretty horse. What’s his registered name? I’d love to look at his pedigree.
Joker’s registered name is Super Intimadator and his brother Ace is registered as Iza Intimidator or Ima Intimadator. I’m not sure which. They were Canadian born and bred.
Here is a picture of Ace, they are two of Tommie Turvey’s star horses, they are his roman riding team plus each does a solo act.
http://tinyurl.com/25ou62
Here is a publicity picture of them in action.
http://tinyurl.com/2a37vg
Ah ok. I know of their breeder in Canada. It’s Super Intimidator and Iza Intimidator Two. They’re still registered in the breeder’s name and both still listed as stallions.
Hidalgo said, “I guess until there is more genetic research, I will have to wait for a better answer
”
The fact that Tobianos can’t excel on their own without the influence of proven QH or TB blood doesn’t tell you anything?
There are a gazillion Tobianos registered with APHA who are the product of Tobiano to Tobiano matings for the first 3 or 4 generations of their pedigree. Usually black and whites. Find me one who did something. There are plenty out there to research.
Hidalgo, regarding what I said, “The fact that Tobianos can’t excel on their own without the influence of proven QH or TB blood doesn’t tell you anything?”…a perfect example of this is the two Tobianos that Kay posted. They are out of a well-bred, Impressive-bred Palomino QH mare.
They are both geldings, that’s all Tommie really wants. I can believe he never got the papers in his name despite the fact that he has had the horses since they were one and two years old. They are now I think seven and eight.
He frankly is not in the least bit into papers or bloodlines. I’m sure that somewhere he has a bill of sale for them. LOL
Of course the tobiano pattern has to be associated with or influenced by a breed, it’s a coat pattern, not a breed on its own.
And this is where we obviously disagree.
FTFOTB, could you post a ink to where you found Ace and Joker’s pedigree. I’m now curious about it.
Kay, their pedigrees are on APHA. But I can post a link to them if you don’t have access to APHA.
A link would be easier for me, I have never been to the APHA website.
I don’t know if Tommie’s other paint, Pokerjoe, is registered or not. He has had him longer and now does nothing but the comedy act.
Kay, here’s a link to their pedigree:
Pedigree
Thanks, I see a lot of names I recognize on the QH side but I’m not familiar with paint part of the pedigree. Are they as well bred on top as on the bottom?
I know the lady that bred them really wanted Tommie to take them, enough that she hauled them from Alberta to North Dakota where he was performing to make sure he got them.
Kay, the top side is more obscure, with the proven horses not appearing until the fifth generation.
Well I guess that proves the theory that a good mare is a big consideration in the pedigree.
HorsePoor said…
forthefutureofthebreed said…
Here’s a pretty Tobiano halter stallion that seems to defy Tobiano type:
Tobiano Stallion
November 21, 2007 10:55 AM
___________________________
He is gorgeous! He’s also about 15 minutes from me.
Horsepoor,
Thank you!!! Skippy is my pride and joy.
Email me or call me. You are welcome to come by and see Skippy anytime.
Kay said…
Well I guess that proves the theory that a good mare is a big consideration in the pedigree.
Kay, that’s pretty much true. The two mares in my profile picture are by unknown homozygous Tobiano stallions, but neither mare has any Tobiano blood on the bottom side of their pedigree. Their dams are extremely well-bred mares.
OMG those two mares are beautiful. I particularly love the head on the sorrel and white. Something about her expression, I love it.
Thank you, Kay. She’s our favorite. Very personable 5yo mare. She’ll look you right in the eye, and she gives kisses. She’s the one that’s only 14.2h, but she’s 1100 lbs. Very deep, lots of substance for her short stature. When you ride her, you have a lot of horse under you.
My favorite horses were always the ones that were about 14.2. With my arthritis I haven’t ridden for a few years, that and my weight gain, but being short legged I always liked that size.
I would love to get something well broke and about that size for my grandson, but I don’t have the money for a horse right now and it would cost a fortune to keep it.
I’m a bit hesitant about sending the link to this picture of Pokerjoe. I know someone is going to have a fit, but all I can say is in this case it is not as dangerous as it looks. Part of the act is him falling underneath Pokerjoe. He does it every performance. You can’t really see Pokerjoe’s markings because they are mostly on his hip and he has a white tail.
http://tinyurl.com/2jyvd3
Also this horse works exactly 12 minutes at a time and lives a life of complete luxury the rest of the time.
What a smart horse, huh?
Wish I could get a deal like that. I have to leave in a few minutes to go to work for five hours. That is more work than Pokerjoe does in six months. LOL
I have to say that breeding this huge NUMBER of horses is grossly irresponsible but the quality of the foals they are producing is decent at least. Their stallions (the zillion that they are standing) are for the most part of quality bloodlines, but interestingly, few of the stallions they are standing have performance backgrounds themselves, which is a shame. There were a couple of non-descript breeding stallions but otherwise most were fairly QH typy and at least in the pics I saw seemed well cared for. The foals pictured on their website were also pretty well put-together for riding quality horses. I guess what I’m saying is while they are indeed turning out outrageous numbers of babies, which I always object to, they are at least turning out USEABLE babies.
spiritofhopefarm said, ” I have to say that breeding this huge NUMBER of horses is grossly irresponsible but the quality of the foals they are producing is decent at least. Their stallions (the zillion that they are standing) are for the most part of quality bloodlines, but interestingly, few of the stallions they are standing have performance backgrounds themselves, which is a shame. There were a couple of non-descript breeding stallions but otherwise most were fairly QH typy and at least in the pics I saw seemed well cared for. The foals pictured on their website were also pretty well put-together for riding quality horses. I guess what I’m saying is while they are indeed turning out outrageous numbers of babies, which I always object to, they are at least turning out USEABLE babies.”
While it’s great they aren’t breeding total junk, they’re still not responsible breeders. Even if they are breeding useful horses, they aren’t breeding for the improvement of the breed. They are just adding to the numbers. Not good.
Forthefuture, I agree with you totally, they are not responsible breeders. I was just noting that in terms of quality, they could be overbreeding much worse!
In our area, the #1 problem seems to be the glut of off-track standardbreds and cross-bred paperless, grade fuglies that seem to be everywhere. But we do see our share of horses brought in by dealers from out west that are largely overbred ranch culls turned auction fodder like many of that ranch’s produce are likely to become.
I’m sure you all know that cows, chicken and pigs are rendered into dog and cat food but did you also know that unwanted horses, dogs and cats are rendered into pet food as well? Check it out:
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/petfood1.html
This is what irresponsible overbreeding has led to.