To paraphrase Jay Leno…
Nov 15 2007
Jay Leno once said “It’s not that everybody on the Internet is nuts, it’s that all of the nuts are on the Internet.” Well, sometimes I think the same can be said of the horse industry!
Woman on tractor tried to slam cops, police say
10/27/2007
POUGHKEEPSIE – A Union Vale woman was arrested for attempted assault during the evening hours on Wednesday after she allegedly tried to run police officers down with a tractor.
The Dutchess County Sheriff’s office responded to 1927 Bruzgal Road in Union Vale on Wednesday evening to assist the Dutchess County ASPCA on a warrant to seize horses from the location, police said.
Upon arrival, Sandra Kistner, 62, became violent and uncooperative toward both deputies and ASPCA officers. Police said Kistner ultimately attempted to run officers down with a tractor.
Kistner was taken into custody. There were no injuries as a result of the incident, police said.
Kistner was charged with first-degree attempted assault, a felony. She was remanded to Dutchess County Jail in lieu of $25,000 cash bail or a $50,000 bond.
OK, so apparently this wacko bitch has been running a scaryscaryscary “nurse mare” operation for years and the humane authorities finally caught up with her. So she tried to run them over with a tractor. Nice! If you google her, you can find her ALL OVER the Internet posting like she’s some kind of freakin’ authority on mare and foal care. Um, maybe she’s a pro at starving them – you have to be doing quite the job of that before the ASPCA shows up with a seizure order.
This is a good opportunity to discuss the “nurse mare” industry in general. Early this year a friend of mine lost a mare to a torsion colic when her baby was four days old. We googled and found some kind of “nurse mare network.” How great, we thought! We thought it was a service to match up mares who had lost their foals with foals who had lost their moms. It honestly never occurred to us (damn, 30+ years in horses and still naive) that it was an equine rent-a-center, asking thousands of dollars for the loan of a lactating mare whose own baby had been, so they said, pulled off of her early in order to get her into the cash-producing rental string (OK, they didn’t say it quite that way but that was the gist of it!). After we heard the base cost, daily cost, additional costs, etc. we decided we would give Little Squirt a try on the milk replacer. After an interesting first evening of syringing milk replacer into a colt that was already showing phenomenal jumping talent by jumping over the top of us, Little Squirt figured out how to drink from a bucket. At 8 months and 13.2 hh, I’m thinking he suffered no ill effects.
Nevertheless, this did cause me to do a little more research into this odd little corner of the horse world. Turns out there are entire rescues devoted to cleaning up the colossal mess made by the less-ethical nurse mare providers. Here’s a page explaining how the nurse mare industry works. Here’s another. Still more – a pretty good FAQ on this page. And that rescue is actually trying to link up motherless foals with foal-less mothers as a public service, too!
While I’m sure some of our discussion today will be from those of you who have had prior experiences with Ms. Kistner (doubt that’s the first time she’s chased someone with a tractor), the other thing I’d like to discuss is the ethics of the nurse mare industry in general.
If a foal can be raised perfectly fine on milk replacer and milk pellets, and given that there are other alternatives that do not create an orphaned foal, such as putting 2 foals on a quiet old mare who is a good milker (a friend of mine used to do that every year to get her show mare back in the ring and it worked out fine for the mares and the foals), or actually finding a mare who has genuinely lost her foal to natural causes…is it ethical at all to pull apart a mare and her foal just so that some other baby can benefit from natural milk?
Has anyone actually proven that a foal raised on milk replacer will not perform as well as an adult as a foal raised on mare’s milk?
I understand how much money is at stake with a high dollar foal, but I still think there are better ways to deal with an orphan other than creating another one. What do you think?
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Damn, and I thought I knew so much! I’ve seen many foals raised on milk replacers. Don;t know what they’re doing now, but the only problem is the hours we have to keep initially.
Out at my barn, one of the mares rejected her baby. They started her on replacer, and put her with an older mare for the company. Well, they got along so well that the owners decided to induce lactation in the older mare! It worked great, and you can read the full story here…http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=9048&kw=rejected%20filly.
The youngster has been weaned and is healthy, strong, and beautiful.
the husband of the tractor-driving nurse mare lady posted on the chronicle forums recently, trying to say that animal control is just evil and trying to get them. Some interesting reading :
[url=http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=120254]All breeders beware the SPCA![/url]
oops, i meant this:
All Breeders Beware the SPCA!
got my UBB and HTML mixed up. sorry!
OMG her husband’s illerate rant on there is funnier than hell!
I have dealt with an orphaned foal first hand. He was a high-dollar cutting baby out of a nice performing mare. It was my trainer’s dream cross. Unfortunately, the maiden mare had problems. She survived, but the baby was rejected. Not once did he agree to nurse mares. I now have an idea as to why he turned down the idea.
I helped with the baby for a bit. They tried to twitch mom to let him nurse. It worked for the colostrum, but they didn’t want to torture her.
They raised the baby on milk replacer (also really expensive) and he turned out really nicely. He is currently working on NCHA stuff and doing quite well. He was started later and the owners are hoping that he can become a youth horse.
It is possible. You don’t have to put unwanted foals on the ground to do it. You just have to have patience. A lot of people don’t have that.
I think this is my first comment on here, but I’ve been following the blog for a while. I just wanted to pop in and say thanks for highlighting Last Chance Corral and all the work they do with the nursemare foals. They are a wonderful organization and there are 6 horses at my barn that have come through the LCC.
The best part of the nutter husband’s post:
“Its like the gustopo.”
I am in hysterics. The Gustopo. Oh geez.
Just like you, I never knew that the nurse mare “industry” existed. If you ever get a chance to actually talk to Victoria at Last Chance Corral, you will hear some appalling stories about how the foals removed from the nurse mare are treated. Nowadays, since they know that “do-gooders” will rescue the foals, they charge *her* to take care of foals that they just used to kill before.
The whole business treats horses shamefully. I realize the TB breeders have their reasons for not using AI, but one of the side effects of this policy is that countless foals die every year. Just another dirty little secret of the horse business.
i have raised baby calves on milk replacer.. never had to raise a colt on it, though…. but the calves do well. no reason really why a colt wouldn’t thrive as well i would assume!
I think I am going to be sick.
I had absolutely no idea this was going on.
People suck.
Those poor babies make me want to cry. I never really thought about this as an “industry” before. I might investigate what happens in Australia. I couldn’t bear to think the foals here were not cared for and ended up as “pony skins” that is disgusting. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
As to whether the foals grow up to be OK after being raised on milk replacer, you might want to ask LCC about the literally hundreds of foals they have adopted out over the past few years. I think you’d probably find that most turn out fine. While I don’t know for sure, but will guess, the ones that have problems were probably born early because their moms were induced when they were needed for another foal. LCC gets a fair number of preemies this way.
A vile business!
>>Nowadays, since they know that “do-gooders” will rescue the foals, they charge *her* to take care of foals that they just used to kill before. < <
Yeah, that’s always the side effect of the rescue business. If the bad guy knows you are a rescuer, prepare for the rescue mark-up. Greedy bastards.
>>the ones that have problems were probably born early because their moms were induced when they were needed for another foal.< <
Oh good God. I hadn’t even heard about THAT yet…
I have known of several orphans that were raised on milk replacers.
The trick with the orphans is that they do not think they are people. The best set up I have seen is folks that used igloo coolers that are modified to have a lamb nipple on them. You can mix up a lot of the milk replacer at once (and drop freezer packs in it to keep it cool) so you don’t have to get up as often. The orphan then lives with the rest of the mares and babies to learn how to be a horse.
If anyone needs details on the modifications needed for “Cooler Mommy”, drop me a line and I will dig up the information.
I remember a few years back this girl had a beautiful 17+ hand high tb mare. The mare was lame from years of jumping and what not so the girl spent thousands of dollars to breed her to some sort (I’m not an english person) of hot shot warmblood stallion.
Note: The mare was HUGE… So big that they actually had to stall her on her own in the foaling stall!
Anywho… the baby popped out all legs and just a massive baby with huge knees. Momma was so big she couldn’t see her little foal and ended up stepping all over it. Whenever baby tried to nurse, mamma would just walk all over the poor thing. The little colt ended up with neumonia (yeah I can’t spell sorry) and the lack of milk from the mom just didn’t help at all. Finally the poor little thing died.
They took the mare to the race track here to use her as a nurse mare for an orphaned foal as the mare still had her milk and everything. (The foal had just died the previous day). First the mare rejected it and wouldn’t let it near her in the stall, on a lead rope, nothing,so the people at the race track had her (the mare) tied in a chute so that the foal could still reach her teats to nurse, the mare was also sedated so that this little baby could survive… well good ol’ mamma.. somehow managed to lash out, kick the foal in the head and kill the poor thing.
sigh* sad isn’t it?
I picked up a baby for someone from the LLC – and talked to several people who were “put out” by Victoria’s attitude. It seems she didn’t spend enough time coddling them and stroking their egos for adopting a baby from her. I met her personally, and got the impression that while she doesn’t have much use for a lot of humanity (hell, who on this blog DOES?), she loved, knew and took excellent care of all the horses on her place. She seemed like a VERY busy lady, with a lot of horses who demand a lot of time, effort and devotion.
It seemed to me to be a very well-run organization which does a lot of good. Her focus isn’t on making people feel better – it was making horses better.
This horse was bred specifically to die:
http://tinyurl.com/37ct8u
http://tinyurl.com/2rtojk
He’s a last chance corral rescue. He didn’t grow up to be an eventer so he got traded to be the extra trail horse (green broke but super quiet) for another person and now that person doesn’t want to feed him because she wants to buy a camel. I was going to buy a very well trained lesson horse for my husband but I can’t let this guy go just anywhere so he’s pretty much mine now because he won’t bring $1500.00 in todays market and I’m not letting him go to auction. Why because I’m a rescuer at heart. I’ll put off my own plans and see how this works out. I can hang off the side of him stick my toe in his elbow or belly and it doesn’t phase him. Bombs and helicopters don’t phase him-literally.
I don’t know what the answer is to your question but it’s bad enough that horses are born with people having the idea that they might accomplish something or make someone happy- even if the breeder is deluded- then they are poorly conformed or badly trained and end up at auction. This baby was born to go to auction for meat and Last Chance Corrals stepped in and saved him. Now he’s green and lacks registration because why bother registering an animal that is not expected to live.
And at 3 1/2 years old, he still lost 2 homes.
I don’t believe it’s right to separate a mare and foal so another foal has a nurse mare. It’s about the money (or value) of the orphaned foal, and that’s not right.
We raised an orphaned TB foal in ’93 (lost the mare when the foal was 1 day old). We didn’t have access to any lactating mares at the time. We raised this colt on FoalLac and all the good hay and appropriate foal feed. He thrived and never did look like an orphaned foal, nor was he ever sick. He grew up to be over 16h, and was absolutely beautiful. He was gelded as a yearling, then sold.
The drawback of raising a foal on a bottle/from a bucket or without a mare/access to other horses (as babies) is the strange mental state that these orphans develop. If turned out with other horses later on, they do not recognize horse body language (as in bitch mares with no ears, etc.) and they can really get hurt. They don’t mentally function as normal horses and become difficult to handle if you’re the one who raised them. Most seem to do fine if sold, as others don’t seem to have problems handling them. The scenario is the same with many others I knew who raised orphaned foals on a bottle or bucket.
There are many success stories of orphaned foals going on to be great horses.
The importance of them growing up as close to “normal” (as in being raised by a mare) cannot be emphasized enough. The physical well-being can be achieved either way, but the mental well-being is another story.
Any breeder who owns a broodmare that will nurse another mare’s foal is a gold mine, and should never be sold.
Of course, an “industry” to address this issue doesn’t surprise me, since there is a lot of money involved. Many people will sacrifice anything for money. A service that will match up lactating mares who lost their foals with orphans who lost their dams is fine, but taking away foals from these mares just so these nurse mares can be available isn’t acceptable to me.
Yes, what we ended up doing with mine was putting him with an old retired broodie who loves ALL babies. We didn’t want to risk her health trying to induce lactation (sounds like it can be hard on the mare) but he did grow up with a mom and learned his social skills because of it.
The only problem we had was the mare developed a taste for milk replacer herself!
Don’t have that problem with Maximus. He can be turned out with other horses including bitch mares with no ears and knows to get out of the way.
But he has way more “draw” than a normal horse should and can easily get on top of you unless you enforce boundaries all the time. He’s very respectful with the person who raised him but she doesn’t allow him to crowd her.
Two years ago, my show mare rejected her colt. We tried for several days, but quit when it became obvious that someone was going to get hurt. We put the colt with an elderly donkey for company and fed him with a lamb’s nipple attached to a Coleman cooler. About a month later, the donkey died, so the colt was pretty much alone.
As soon as a friend weaned her colts, he went to her house and lived with two other babies. He’s now a 16+ hand 2 year old gelding (and he’s anything but fugly)! He’s not orphan-like at all. We purposely didn’t handle him alot once he would eat well on his own…just enough to keep him tame, no hugs and kisses. He’s never associated people with dinner or as a playmate. Living with the other colts his age taught him horse skills, and he’s turned out just fine!
BTW, we named the colt “Coleman” after his cooler/mama!
First time poster – if you read through the posts to the nutter’s husband’s original post you will find
“I had a Hanoverian mare that had a broken ankle in Germany as a yearling. She was imported and was about 95% sound at the walk. When I got her she was 15. We bred her for many years, and she was fine except for that last month of pregnancy, so I tried to keep her on the light side to minimize that last month. After foaling, I was always playing catch-up, and about a month or so after, she would be back to looking fine – but never heavy, on purpose. She did better (mentally & physically) if she was not kept in a stall, so she lived with my stallion, but she did need to stay pregnant to live with him.”
banging head on keyboard now….
I fill in part time weekends for our large animal practitioners. Every spring, it’s the same story at least once. Client’s mare loses foal. Another client’s mare dies unexpectedly. I can think of a few times when they acted as a “go between” for the two “A” list clients.
And, I raised a foal on milk replacer from 3 days old, battled septicemia and won. Even in that highly compromised state, he did very well on replacer.
Drink a bunch of soda, wash out the 20 oz or .5 liter bottles, mix your formula for the entire day at once and fill the bottles. Pop the top, attach those little sheep nipples that are designed to slip over these type of bottles, and there you go. Wash them, disinfect, and start over the next day.
Companionship? I know I’m not the only person who owns TWO mares who would gladly steal a foal, even if they didn’t have milk to nurse it.
No, this is not a needed “industry.”
A friend of mine had to get a nurse mare when she lost a TB mare 2 days after foaling. She obtained one from a racing stud in Kentucky. My friend is not super-rich, but comfortably well-off. I assume that she probably paid quite a bit for the use of this mare. Didn’t realize it could be that expensive – perhaps MORE expensive from a more reputable source?
Then the other side: We sold to a breeder a functionally sound but not likely to stay sound if jumped (which was her major talent) mare (old injury, not a conformational flaw). They had her for several years, then lost her foaling. The bottle/bucket fed the baby for a few days, then tried introducing him to one of their other mares who had foaled recently. With very little fuss, the mare simply accepted the baby. It was very funny/cute to see the two. The mare was a smallish, lean, foundation type Appy, her own foal a small leopard marked colt. The orphan foal was out of a 16.1 racebreed mare, a chestnut snowcap. He towered over the adoptive mother’s real baby, but apparently the two bonded as if they were twins. Very cute, but I think such easy acceptance is rare.
My sons go to school in Athens, which is where LCC is located. I made an app’t to visit because I wanted to see the place I was thinking about donating to. It was in the middle of foaling season, they had 2 preemies and a bunch of other foals, everyone obviously busy as heck, and still Victoria took the time to visit with me and talk about what they were doing. She is a very no nonsense person and busy doesn’t describe what things are like there, but everything is clean, horses are very well taken care of, and you can tell they really do care about the horses.
I’m sure she doesn’t suffer fools gladly, but if you had to put up with some of the fools she’s had to deal with, you wouldn’t have much patience for some folk either.
As for the social issues, they recommend you take 2 foals if you adopt.
Public service announcement: foaling season starts in mid-January, so if you would like to help a worthy cause, I’m sure LCC would appreciate your help.
Here in NZ we don’t have a nurse mare industry like yours at all.
During the breeding season there is one service offered that puts owners of orphan foals in contact with owners of mares that have lost there foals. Nothing else is around.
Having seen calves raised on milk powder all the time I also believe an orphan foal could be successfully raised just takes time and effort.
I have a girl friend that raised an orphan. He drank out of a bucket, didn’t ever get the people/food connection and get spoiled to the point of being a lap pet. He’s just a ranch horse now, a good one at that. Not real big, probly 14 hands, 1050 or 1100 pounds.
On the internet I often see the rants from people whose horses are seized by the SPCA. How enthusiastic IS the SPCA in the US about taking large animals? Around here (Eastern Canada) a case has to be really drastic before they take possession. They will intervene earlier, and do their best to remedy the situation, but don’t have the resources to seize large animals except in the very worst cases. I am in no way criticizing them- they do an amazing job with resources available. Just curious if it’s the same in the States.
Galen, from my experience, it is the same idea. The Indiana SPCA rarely seizes horses. I have never seen it happen. Basically if the horse has shelter (trees count), water (even if dirty) and some sort of food (even if it lacks nutrition) they cannot touch your horse. I am always pushing for tougher protection laws that require vetting, dental care, and hoof care.
And as far as companionship, that foal I talked about earlier ended up in a pasture with a weanling (he was born in May, so this January baby was older) and a cow. The cow acted pretty much like mom. He loved her a lot.
My mare has had to play mom to other foals. Two years ago, she had my long yearling at her side when he was about 2-3 months old and still nursing. There was another clueless mares in teh pature who constantly ignored her baby and was always “out there”. My mare (I call her super mom for a reason) acted as a stand in when mom waundered off and baby was standing around by my colt. She even put up with nursing them both at times. I thought it was hilarious, but without her, this boarder’s mare might have neglected her foal every couple of hours when baby needed to eat.
Slightly OT- Was there an update on the blind draft cross mare that was staked out in the field? She was bay. Hopefully it turned out well for her…
It is the socialization factor that can be a problem.
For example, many show foals are weaned at 2 months or so (and I’m guess the same will hold true for orphans) There have been studies that show the fillies, that go on to be mares, and then broodmares don’t have a clue what to do when they foal, or how to take care of one. Not much of a problem in a very intensively managed operation, but a big problem if you kick a clueless mare and foal out into a herd situation. The other issue is when a non-horse person tries to raise the orphan, or there is limited time available by the owners to supervise the orphan.. same problem as when you have kids under no supervision.
If this is a gal I am thinking of, then I’d say the truth is in the middle, or more like what the hubby is trying to say. The lady was MORE than knowlegable about her craft, and never put any of her foals in danger, and was not making huge money from her ‘business’ that I ever heard. Non horse people trying to understand something of this sort, and then make RULINGS on it are bound to be swayed by those that have good sound bites, rather than the reality of facts. I did meet her in person, never saw her place, but knew others that did, and no one ever said a bad word about the shape her mares and foals were in.
IF this is the gal I’m thinking of, then I feel sorry for her, I highly doubt she was mistreating her horses, and agree or disagree with what she was doing, many customers sang her praises and I never heard of any true ‘abuse’ like we have found and discussed elsewhere in this blog.
I had never heard of a ‘nurse mare industry’. In the UK we have this organisation to help with orphan foal problems
http://www.nationalfoalingbank.com/index.html
I don’t know all the ins and outs of how it works and the site is being updated at the moment but its non-profit making and for the benefit of the horses/owners.
There is also http://www.cyberfoal.org they link up orphans and mares that have lost foals. You can also find colostrum there.
I have met the lovely Ms. Kistner and her hubby. Both are eminent authoraties in the hoss industry. Knowone knows more about horses, care, breeding or fly control than the hubby and the wife. Just asx them about wormin.
“I guess nobody told her she can’t go after a SPCA officer with a tractor.” – husband
Gee, ya think it’s somehow wrong to attack any kind of an authority person with a weapon of any kind?! I wonder what else she doesn’t know…
This is giving me a headache.
There was a woman at one of the barding facilities (An I call it that on the loosest terms) who lost her mare and raised the orphan foal. She ended up using goats milk for some time, and even bought several good milkers to supply the foal.
She now had goats to feed and milk, as well as an orphan foal to care for. But somehow she managed and pulled it all off, in the midst of a divorce no less.
I’m not sure to what extent who kept whom going, but he turned out quite nice and helped her maintain some level of insanity in a less than sane world.
Hmm, I had no idea that that was a common practice either! Thanks Fugs for educating me on this subject….I thinks its quite sad that they think its ok to breed, just to kill the babies, its no better than the PMU industry…..
Grullotobi – people do seem to be saying her horses looked fine when they were there. But when you chase the cops with your tractor, it pretty much toasts your credibility!
>>Slightly OT- Was there an update on the blind draft cross mare that was staked out in the field? She was bay. Hopefully it turned out well for her…< <
That’s a whole other drama and it’s very long and complicated and I just haven’t had time to put it all up but I will. Talk about the local authorities being useless, this was a prime case. My latest information is the mare was PTS but then again, that beats being staked out blind with no protection so maybe it’s not such a bad outcome after all.
I’ve heard about the igloo method, but it concerns me that these foals would get cold milk replacer.Milk replacer needs to be mixed up with hot water and mixed up well or it can lead to digestive problems, scours and such. Another alternative for an orphaned foal is goats milk (or a combo of the goats milk and replacer) my friend rigged up a stanchion for a nanny to nurse an orphaned TB foal. I don’t know that the goat was thrilled about the whole thing but it did work.
Whether or not she was in the right or the wrong, I would like to note that she didn’t handle this well and deserved anything they threw at her. She SHOULD have been arrested and I applaud the police for doing so. Whether you are in the right or wrong, you should let investigators do their job – for your own sake.
Chasing down investigators only shows immaturity and instability. It doesn’t help your case in court because the state will paint you not as a savvy business person or a responsible owner but simply as a crazy lady who hoarded horses.
The state can do anything it needs to win its case. By chasing them down with a tractor, you only giving them ammo.
So, please people, if this ever happens to you, just shut up and lawyer up!
Oh, and Natrlhorse, you can use coolers as like a thermos and keep the warmth in, too. I have heard of people putting warm milk in them to keep it from getting cold. Perhaps that is what Coleman’s owner did?
I lived in Lexington, KY and the surrounding area for many years and even worked on a Thoroughbred farm when I was in college. (Night watch in a foaling barn during foaling season – the coolest job in the world.) This was back in the 70′s-80′s, so I can’t comment on the current situation. Back then, the nurse mare business was active, but kept a very low profile. People didn’t really talk about it and I think very few people outside the TB industry even knew it existed. Heck, I wouldn’t have known about it except I knew somebody who knew somebody that tried to find homes for the nurse mare foals.
As someone already noted, this is just one more dirty little secret of the TB racing industry.
As far as bottle-feeding orphan/rejected foals, I have no experience with it. I have bottle raised several calves, though, and I feel like they never really do as well as those raised by their mothers. Note: this is just a comment on bottle feeding, not in any way an attempt to justify the use of nurse mares whose own foals are taken away so the mare can raise a more “valuable” foal. That, I’m firmly against.
http://www.newenglandequinerescues.com/badnewsbadpeople.htm
Some more info.
The nursemare industry has even less credibility than the PMU industry to me. At least the PMU babies are allowed to eat and aren’t sent out until they’re weaned. And people with no business raising orphaned foals end up buying them. A girl on my team got one at Equine Affair or some such thing and was just so proud to report that she had gotten the baby down to one bottle a day…
Good thing I wasn’t the one she told because I would have had something to say about that. I took care of one for three months and he got his bucket of foal-lac every four hours (and I heard about it if he didn’t).
“Oh, and Natrlhorse, you can use coolers as like a thermos and keep the warmth in, too. I have heard of people putting warm milk in them to keep it from getting cold. Perhaps that is what Coleman’s owner did?”
Yes, that’s what we did. I mixed hot milk three times a day and put in the the cooler. It stayed pretty warm…never got much too cold. He’s an April baby so it wasn’t bad outside. Coleman was happy to drink it.
I’ve had two orphan foals. Both outgrew their full siblings. Both were phenomenal show horses. The mare had a nasty temper but that hads nothing to do with being an orphan. She grew several inches taller than sire, dam, full sibs. Western pleasure bred (Zippo on both sides) and big as a house. She cleaned up in halter classes against the HYPP halter-breds. The ther orphan was just a super friendly easy to train happy guy. My vet later said that studies have been done showing the earlier they come off mom (AFTER 6 weeks old), the bigger they get. Though my big mare was orphan right from the get-go and had a colustrum bottle only. Go figure.
fuglyhorseoftheday said…
Grullotobi – people do seem to be saying her horses looked fine when they were there. But when you chase the cops with your tractor, it pretty much toasts your credibility!
I agree with that, but I remember Sandy as a passionate person, and while they say there are charges, they don’t say for what… I think this is a case where we should see all the facts first, It wouldn’t surprise me if sandy felt desperate and backed into a corner. What would you do if someone ran out to your place tomorrow, waiving a paper saying you were mistreating your critters when you know full well that wasn’t the case? Non Horsey do-gooders are scary people too. As I said before, I don’t recall her making a killing off of this, and the legal system pretty much steamrolls over anyone that can’t afford a lawyer, and how many lawyers are knowledgeble enough about horses to want a case like this?
I’m still open minded, it could be she was having problems feeding them, but without pictures to the contrary, I’m not sure we have a true case here.. seems like VA also took over a horse farm due to one or two older/ skinny horse and took all of them… Being a Nurse Mare operation may have been the factor that led someone with an axe to grind to start the whole mess.
If someone could dig up the actual charges (on the cruelty), and pictures, I’d sure like to see them.
Someone else said she went from state to state, so digging up the other cruelty charges shouldn’t be too hard, I’d like for someone to post them, I haven’t found them.
I believe what the SPCA is saying about the woman. The farm is horrid and the foals whose dams leave to be nurse mares are treated poorly. Many die that the SPCA is not aware of. I find it difficult to believe the SPCA acted prematurely. In fact, the SPCA is often criticized for not acting quickly enough, and always has a solid case when animals are siezed. Read the other posts at COTH from the people who have seen the truth. And read between the lines of the posts where people praise Sandy for the care she provided the nurse mares – in not one case does the person see the foal the mare left behind.
I have a 6-year-old Morgan who was rejected by her dam at 3 days old. She has personal space issues, but is easily the most personable horse I have known andhas an incrdible personality. She is pregnant with her first foal, and along with my usual concerns in foaling out a maiden I have to wonder if her early experience will affect her mothering.
“What would you do if someone ran out to your place tomorrow, waiving a paper saying you were mistreating your critters when you know full well that wasn’t the case?”
I wouldn’t chase them with a tractor.
But maybe I’m just not a passionate person. And by ‘not passionate’, I mean sane.
Ok, not to diss anyone or draw the wrong attention, but I was just on the LCC website, and searching under available horses. Like I need any more!
Is it just me or does the first picture of Dracula’s Dark Angel ‘Draco’ look a little odd?
(The chestnut horse behind him in the distance looks like his leg is a stand in for Draco’s outdoor plumbing.)
Draco looks like a nice enough horse, and for what he can do- is a bargain at that price, but maybe that isn’t the best picture of him to put up. Maybe someone can photoshop it for her?
I would like to second morgan_horse_queen’s public service announcement for the Last Chance Corral.
I live in Ohio (same state) and while I have not yet visited the LCC, I do visit their website every winter/spring to see the babies and to read their little bios. It’s been excruciatingly hard to pass up some of the darlings they have rescued!! But we recognize we do not yet have the equine skills to deal with such young orphans….
LCC also sometimes accepts horses needing new homes, as fundraisers to help finance the nurse mare orphans. The horses are evaluated and then matched with appropriate new owners. Many VERY fine horses have passed through their hands, and have been well placed in loving homes. Usually these horses are listed and pictured on their site.
I have considered that, should we ever need to place one of our horses (as one does craft several contingency plans, but catastrophe can still, occasionally, happen!), I would donate him to LCC as a fundraiser: Everyone wins.
I’m so glad to see them spotlighted here today! May they receive a great deal of support due to this exposure!
Going out to move bedding now — it’s snowing here!
mares that have had foals in the past can be induced to lactate with a drug called domperidone. It doesn’t work in all of them and it takes a little while to get the milk production geared up, but it saves having to make a baby to get lactation. We had a mare who was called on almost every year for this task (when owners lost mares, they would be referred to Suds) and she was just a star….
“What would you do if someone ran out to your place tomorrow, waiving a paper saying you were mistreating your critters when you know full well that wasn’t the case?”
I would happily give them a tour of my barn, show them the feed I buy which costs $24/50 lbs, the hay I drive two hours each way to buy, and warn them that my horses will be looking for treats. It has happened to me – on a sunny fall day four of my five mares were laying flat out in the pasture. Two were pregnant and had large bellies (of course they had been “dead” for several days and were bloated with gas – according to a statement that was given to the sheriff). A sheriff knocked on my door and I opened the door to see two sheriff vehicles in my driveway. We walked out to the pasture, past the two round bales (because with five mares, I want to ensure everyone has a spot on a bale) and walked right up to two mares who were snoozing in the sun. Officers laughed when each mare lazily lifted there head to look at us and went back to sleep. They also noted the two 100-gallon tanks that were clean and full.
It didn’t bother me at all. I understand non-horse people see things differently. I have nothing to hide and am actually proud to let local law enforcement see how I care for my critters. I don’t have a lot of money, but my animals want for NOTHING.
Lynne, exactly.
Heck, I live on an animal control officer’s property
A.C. inspects my horses on a daily basis!
Straying from the topic – but I have to ask this question here as two vets have not been able to answer it:
my 22 y.o. mare, who I have owned for 15 of those years and has never, to my knowledge, had a foal can be “milked” at any given time. Granted the “milk” is more like whitish water, but nonetheless, something comes out. There’s no heat, not discomfort (no mastitis, no foul odor). She has been like this since I’ve owned her. What’s up with that and could I ever use her for a nurse mare, should the need arise?
Can I just take 10 seconds to give you all a big hug????
I’m on the board of directors for Last Chance, I’ve been volunteering down there for 3 years. Every rescue has it’s ups and downs but lately I’ve been doing as much rescue research as possible to see how we can improve things. While no one’s perfect, I have been SO HAPPY to see that we are passing muster with the most important critics, the adopters and supporters. THANK YOU for the mention Fugs.
As to how raising an orphan affects their growth. Not one bit. Actually, we’re noticing now after so many years that many NMF are actually growing bigger than their momma-raised siblings. A suggested explanation for this is that momma doesn’t have an unlimited supply of milk available 24/7 – sometimes she’s out. Bucket momma, however, rarely runs dry. They grow just as big as strong, if not bigger and stronger, than their counterparts.
Behaviorally, as long as they are exposed to adult horsie herd life as soon as they are old enough, there are usually no issues. Foals that are raised alone don’t do well with other horses – thus why try not to adopt foals to owners with no other horses. Sometimes we adopt two foals to people with no other horses, but only very knowledgeable horse people who understand the importance of setting boundaries.
Oh, also the idiots who think it is cute for their one day old foal to put its hooves on their shoulders. Those foals also have issues. And then we get them back to deal with them. YAY!
We do get a lot of premature foals. Last spring we got about 30-40 preemies. They are induced because an order comes in for a mare and there are no foals on the ground. So they put one on the ground. We have brought them home still wet before.
I can’t name farms here but there is one very very prominent TB breeding farm that actually keeps its own nurse mare farm on the premises. We are not allowed to purchase their foals, they simply die. The nurse mare area is away from the stud farm and is not pretty.
Last spring, we got a call from a big farm to pick up a foal there if we wanted it. She was a beautiful, big bay draft filly. The nurse mare was ordered late Friday, the grooms were told to put the baby in a stall and they would take care of her later. She was FORGOTTEN ABOUT until Monday morning, when we were called. She was so dehydrated and colicy we were unable to save her. She still had the little flappies on her hooves. WHAT A SHAME.
As to Victoria, bless her heart, she has lost her touch at coddling all the folks who come to visit – she is very no-nonsense. ; ) But things are changing a lot around here lately, and if you guys are in touch with her again anytime soon, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised. And once you show you’re not an idiot (oh my goodness, do we get idiots around there), she’ll remember you for a long time.
Oh, and whoever asked about Draco – a former employee donated him as a fundraiser. He life kind of fell apart and she couldn’t keep him anymore. I’ve driven down three times (!!!) to ride and get better pics and as soon as I show up it starts pouring!!! I promise I will get better ones for you soon. Vic is no good with a camera. ; )
Also, we finally get to go to Sugarcreek tomorrow! Only the second time this year, but two is better than none. Watch the site for what we pick up.
Thank you guys again so much!!
Lauren,
I posted about Victoria not coddling the people.
I liked her (Victoria, that is). Maybe it’s my contrary nature, but I realized that she is not being unfriendly, she is simply B U S Y and has much better things to do with her time. Heck, I was tired of the person I was picking the horse up for.
Well, I can stand corrected now, I’ve had someone that has been there to one of the farms Sandy was at tell me they were not happy with the care, so I hope the horses end up in a good home, and get better care.
Bummer, just goes to show it is hard to know everything, and giving people the benefit of the doubt can bite you.
OMG! Horror-fied!
I frequent a board who has a person on there often talking about his wifes nurse mares. He always seemed a little off. I was like “Humm I wonder if there is a way to find out if this woman is his wife”
Well guess I didn’t have to figure anything out because you already did. The guy on my board is also Lenny.
I CAN’T BELIEVE THIS! WOW!
If someone came to my house saying I was mistreating my critters I would laugh, smile and go and introduce them to my babies. I would show them the bales of wonderful hay, rail corrals, clean fresh treated water, and fat horses with no wounds of any kind. Then I would encourage them to call MANY people who know me like vets, employers, and neighbors and ask them what my ‘deal’ is. I would NEVER get mad…unless I had something to hide…
Lauren-
Hugs right back at ya!!! And for everyone else doing what they can for those foals. It’s a sad reality that so many times gets ‘swept under the rug’.
I posted about the one pic of Draco. It was just a little odd looking with the hoof hangin out. (obviously a horse behind him, but very visible)
He does look like a very sweet horse and I know a lady who I will be forwarding his info to. She is looking for a jumper and would be an excellent home. We just did a PPE- complete with rads & U/S on a gelding last week she was looking at and he didn’t pass.
Too bad too, because he was still quite young (6), drop dead gorgeous, (still drooling, can ya tell?) and sooooo well behaved.
I might be irritated…surprised too.
I could definitely show them a safe facility, with a lot of food and clean water…but I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t be upset.
I might even cry…honestly. With all that I sacrifice for those horses, I would be so ASHAMED to have AC out on a call.
We’re not fancy…and we’re new to having horses on our own property…but they are friendly and sweet, with glossy coats in the summer and wooly fur in the winter…always have hay in the feeder, and clean water in the trough. Trees for shelter that they prefer to their little barn, and lots of room for them to chase each other.
This isn’t quite the same, but, our 6 year old Appaloosa mare was not raised by her mama. The mare rejected her soon after birth. She got a few glugs of colostrum but then that was it. Luckily there were two other mares who were willing to share their milk.
She had to get past the other foals though. She obviously didn’t get as much as the others, but from the start had a quietly determined way of getting what she needed.
She’s delightful. Calm, gentle, and healthy.
She’s tiny, only 14 hh, but I don’t think if she’d had 6 solid months of mother’s milk she’d be much bigger. The mare was 14.2, the stud was 14.1. You won’t get a 15 hh horse out of that, will you? Despite her short stature she’s very muscular and an easy keeper.
We took a chance on this tiny little thing and raised her from a yearling. We are so glad now that the other mares helped her out.
But you know, it’s a good feeling that they didn’t have to sacrifice their own foals to keep her alive.
>>Oh, also the idiots who think it is cute for their one day old foal to put its hooves on their shoulders. Those foals also have issues. And then we get them back to deal with them. YAY!< <
Ha ha, yes. Where was that lovely pic again that I posted showing the colt with both hoofies on the man’s shoulder BITING HIS NECK?
Oh that’s so KYOOOT!
Headed for a double-decker, that one. Lauren, I hear you, I bet you do get idiots wanting a baby because it is so kyooooot and I’m sure they are just evil when you say no to them because they have no freakin’ clue and would kill it.
The joy of rescue!
But the ones you have saved appreciate it, and that is what counts.
lynne-we had the same issue! pregnant mares were in a giant pasture by the road, and at least once or twice a month someone woul come by to tell us we had a sick/dead horse. We told them to honk their horn as they drove out and watch the happily sleeping girl pick her head up.
Luvmyfugly–I know many mares who produce that thin whitish ‘milk’ when it’s been years and years since they nursed. I don’t know what causes it but it doesn’t seem to be uncommon and it doesn’t seem to cause any problems
It’s my experience that non-horsepeople think that horses sleep standing up 100% of the time and if it’s down it must be dead or very sick.
I’ve had people drive in to alert me that my horses were in trouble and the same thing here…very much non-dead, just lying out there sunbathing!
“What would you do if someone ran out to your place tomorrow, waiving a paper saying you were mistreating your critters when you know full well that wasn’t the case?”
I’ve had this happen twice. The first instance began when we had a weanling filly with a scrape on her rib cage. The injury was not a candidate for stiches and was being treated with neosporin. To the caller, it looked like it was oozing clear pus. When the animal control officer showed up I actually laughed. I then proceeded to show him every horse on the place. He told me that he had a complaint of the horses being so malnourished that their hair was falling out in huge handfuls. They were mares that had been out in a pasture with a run in all winter, that had been brought into a warm barn and it was March, of course they were shedding huge handfuls of hair. He actually commented that they were the nicest looking and fattest horses he had seen all week and thanked me for my time.
The second time was this summer. Evidently a man drove by and saw our horses sunbathing on a hot day. He went to the local coffee shop and called animal control telling them that the horses had been abandoned on the property, that no one had been here for a week, and they were dropping like flies, with at least 7 of them dead already. I was not home but when I arrived home, animal control was here telling the crazy guy that it was obvious that the horses were being cared for, and they were in fact very fat, and the foals were very friendly, so it was obvious someone was working with the horses. She was standing in the field surrounded by foals and yearlings looking for cookies and scritches. I actually made a new friend in the animal control officer that day.
Anyone can call animal control for ANY reason. It is animal control’s duty to investigate and take appropiate action if necessary. I had a friend who raised cattle. They built a bunch of new homes around his cow field and the neighbors were constantly calling animal control about the cows. Once they showed up because someone told them he had a calf that had barbed wire wrapped around it and it was dragging it in the field. The calf had just been born and had a long dried umbilical cord….
There is a huge difference, and a very long process between animal control officers coming out and seeing nothing wrong on a place, and a court order for seizure of livestock.
When I was younger we were visited by the local sheriff’s office/animal control because somebody called in a report of bedraggled, neglected horses with no shelter, no food, and no water. The officer (also a horse-owner) actually laughed when he came out. We showed him around the place – admittedly, my two chubby, muddy, half-shed out geldings weren’t looking so pretty, but hey – it was springtime in Iowa. They had free access to a huge pasture, a run-in shed, a 2-stall barn, a clean 100 gallon water tank and way too much hay. Our pasture formed a U-shape around the outbuildings…from the road, it looked like my guys were trapped in a small paddock area which did not have shelter, water, etc. That, combined with their outward appearance, prompted the neglect report to animal control.
I could see where a non-horsey officer might not have understood the situation as readily as the guy who visited us, but at least in our situation it was pretty easy to clear up the misunderstanding.
I know this is a little off subject, but can anyone tell me why the TB industry does not use AI?
My Hubby’s QH mare coliced severly a few years ago. Then again a month later, and developed ulcers. She used to lay on her back with all four feet in the air. For her it was soothing, for us it was amusing yet strange.
While laying like that in the front pasture, we got more than a few knocks on the door from folks driving by. Some of them were pounding on the door as if to knock it in.
Every one of them swore she was dead, but with the flick of an ear, a twitch of her skin or a swish of the tail she proved them wrong. (I have yet to see a dead horse on its back with it’s legs in the air. Usually they are on their side)
Unfortunately we never got even one picture of her doing it. Now that she’s better she no longer does it, but wouldn’t that have been a sight for an ACO?
My old mare had the whitish slightly milky liquid in her udder as well. She had it for at least 12 years, my vet said it was probably hormomal and would not likely cause any problems.I made sure her udder was always clean and treated the black fly bites that accumulate in this area every spring,and had no trouble at all.
Many years ago the owners of the farm I worked at, had someone call the SPCA about them.This person did not think it was right that the horses should be outside in the winter.These horses were well fed,had shelter and clean water, and were very possibly healthier and happier than horses that live in poorly ventilated barns.
I have an Australian Stock horse that was poddy raised. His idiot breeders sent a whole heep to the meat works including his mum and left him behind. Poor Ace(a few days old at best) was destined to be food for this guys dogs until we rescued him. They are alot of hard work, much like newborn babies but he did just fine on milk replacer. He grew to 15.2hh, so didnt effect his growth any. His only problem is that he thinks hes a human, not a horse!
First off she’s a crazy bitch for chasing someone with a tractor. Come on lets not church this up. You can’t argue these aren’t the behaviors of a normal rational person. Passion my ass.
Secondly. The majority of accounts of her horses in fat and happy condition are coming from people whom she has brought nurse mares to. These people themselves are supporting a questionable industry. We won’t see anything except rainbows and sunshine coming out of these peoples asses with regards to the subject. Do you think she is going to take her sickly thin ones to show off.
Third. I’m sorry but they don’t take animals away for no reason. There is a reason. She and her darling illiterate husband Lenny both know it. Why else are they campaigning for support on the internet? Can find anyone close to home?
Fourth. She has a history of alligations. They can’t all be unfounded. They SPCA is not out to get them that is just crazy talk, the SPCA is doing there god damn job. If its unfounded that will come out in the investigation.
Fifth. MO, which means f’ck all of course is that the investigation will probably proved the allegations to be completely true cause these people appear to be quite clearly 6 cans short of a six pack.
Just for fun lets look at common symptoms of psycological disorders shall we.
Hoarding…check
Paranoia…check
Irrational Behavior…double check
Grandiosity…check
A one way ticket to your local psych ward…priceless.
I guess it wasn’t the first time that woman was arrested:
August 8, 2007
Contact: Chief Uhlmann
Humane Law Enforcement, Dutchess County SPCA
(845) 452-7722 Ext. 3; duhlmann@co.dutchess.ny.us
Unionvale horse owner arraigned on animal cruelty charges
HYDE PARK, NY – A Town of Poughkeepsie resident, Sandra J. Kistner, was arraigned in Unionvale court today on charges filed by the Dutchess County SPCA’s Humane Law Enforcement Division. Kistner was charged with four counts of Failure to Provide Proper Sustenance to an Animal, all misdemeanors.
Chief Uhlmann of the DCSPCA responded to a complaint of horses being inadequately cared for on a horse farm in Unionvale. As a result of the investigation a search and seizure warrant was obtained. Veterinarians who specialize in equine health were consulted to evaluate the overall health of the horses and the conditions in which they were living. Four horses were removed from the property and were transported to animal rehabilitation centers where they are being cared for.
Joyce Garrity, Executive Director of the DCSPCA, stated “The Dutchess County SPCA Humane Law Enforcement team is working very hard to protect the horses in this case. We are appreciative of the help provided by volunteers, the Dutchess County Sheriff’s Office, the NYS Police and the Dutchess County District Attorney’s Office.”
The Defendant was arrested today by NYS Police on the four counts of animal cruelty. The investigation is still ongoing.
If you have questions or concerns regarding possible animal cruelty or neglect, contact the DCSPCA Law Enforcement Division at (845) 452-7722 ext. 3.
The Dutchess County SPCA, a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit, is the lead agency for animal rescue and adoption in Dutchess County. The DCSPCA is a no-kill shelter with a 136-year history of concern, caring and providing shelter for unwanted, abused, abandoned and neglected animals. Central to the mission of the DCSPCA is the securing of caring, responsible, permanent homes for the adoptable animals in its care.
Sometimes horse owners can get Animal Control sicced on them out of malice.
The barn I board at got a visit from Animal Control when a boarder who’d been evicted for being a troublemaking jerk called to report abuse (anonymously, but the timing was just too perfect). Said jerk also called Social Services to report the barn owner was using her foster kids as barn slaves — a rather amusing allegation to the DSS worker who had to follow up on the complaint, since (a) said barn owner was well known to the agency for her superb care of the toughest cases, most damaged children, and (b) all the foster children had major physical disabilities, to the point they could barely even walk, let alone do anything approaching a barn chore.
Our barn owner (a saint in earthly disguise) was annoyed but understanding, and actually sorry for the woman who’d stirred up all this shit, given what a miserably unhappy person she was. We boarders were annoyed and amused at the absurdity. Nobody leaped on a tractor to defend our turf. (Well, we don’t actually HAVE a tractor on premises, but nobody grabbed pitchforks or anything.)
My favorite nonhorsey-person aghast question is: “How come that horse is wearing a blindfold?!?” Whereupon I explain the theory and practice of fly masks.
I cannot recall which of my friends told me the story of having AC knocking on the door one freezing cold but sunny morning, with the funniest look on the officer’s face. The officer had received a report that my friend was burning her dead horses in a pasture. The friend led the officer out to check on the sleeping, steaming horses dozing in the sun…
You are a creepy, creepy person Fugly 0_0
On Tuesday of this week my mother and I were talking to someone which told us about this industry for the first time. They’d taken three foals that would have otherwise been shot so that the nurse mares could raise expensive racehorse foals.
Well the sporthorse stud put two of the foals with one of the older broodmares and the third with another. They were just hoping the mares would love on them, but both mares actually came into milk for the foals (a local vet was quite annoyed because they’d just been to a seminar on inducing lactation and here these mares were just doing it naturally). They still hand fed the foals as there wasn’t much milk, but it certainly assisted in the development mentally if not physically =)
Anyway, we were shocked, appalled etc to find out so much about this. I had no idea about there being an entire nurse mare “industry” until this week.
I had been going to do some more research myself and was going to post on the forums…but you beat me to it.
So I’m thinking you’re either an ET or a sorceress, somebody who can read minds!
Thank you for the great read Fugly.
Mares who have have been used as brood mares will often produce milk each spring even though they were not bred back, and are not foaling that year. If a stray foal(or an orphan) nurses, they will continue to produce milk, and can be used as surrogate mama’s. That, of course, supposes that they will accept the foal, and often an elder mare will do so.
In regards to animal seizure, if you’re talking about a court order from a large humane organization, OK, there’s probably some truth to the allegations. Because the larger humane organizations and AC officers do some sort of on site investigation first.
HOWEVER, sometimes there are small animal rescues who can get all worked up with a need to rescue the cute ponies who can do a lot of damage. I do know of one case, only one, where a neighbor who wanted the land the horse owner had reported the horses to a DOG RESCUE. The dog rescue, in another county, got a seizure order from a judge in another county, if they could verify that there was neglect.
They didn’t even have trailers, but they were soliciting for donations for travel and hay and finally succeeded in “seizing” the animals.
The owner was mortified, but called in her lawyers, documented the seizure, and eventually got her horses back.
Not all animal welfare organizations know what they’re doing.
But judging from the husband’s rant (!), and the chasing with the tractor (?), I’m thinking there’s something going on here.
Well, gee the SPCA doing something worth while! Sorry, its just I live in tis area, and you Wannna know something scary? I probaly touched a horse that she did. My friends uncle got a horse from her. I have just had some porblems with the DCSPCA round here like telling me my pig had a Problem that needed to be addressed by a vet…Becuase she got bad sundburn a while ago and has scarring. Shes been seen by a vet and her breeder numerous times….Any way it comforts me to know at least they really do get the bad guys too!
I agreee with the nusremare thing, that you shouldnt make one prphan to make a anotheerhorse not an orphan!
So they didn’t try to run anyone over with a tractor, but here’s another Darwin candidate or two, three or four:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3407317
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/202929/sylvania_alabama_woman_arrested_for.html
This one from ’05-
http://www.wlky.com/news/4476223/detail.html
This one from ’06-
http://www.wayodd.com/georgia-woman-gets-dui-on-horseback/v/5429/
There was another one here in the Phoenix area and one from Florida too, that I cannot find the articles on.
Like Fugly said, But when you chase the cops with your tractor, it pretty much toasts your credibility! Touche’
For all of us wonderful horse-women:
Horse Hair: Potentially Dangerous!
In a press release today, the National Institute of Health has announced the discovery of a potentially dangerous substance in the hair of horses.This substance, called “amo-bacter equuii” has been linked with the following symptoms in female humans:
Reluctance to cook
Reluctance to perform housework
Reluctance to wear anything but boots
Reluctance to work except in support of a horse
Physical craving for contact with horses (may be an addiction)
Beware: If you come in contact with a female human affected by this substance, be prepared to talk about horses for hours on end.
This has been a public service announcement.
A few years ago there was a guy, actually I used to ride with him once in awhile during the daytime, but on Saturday night he would ride into down, get totally wasted and at closing come out, pour himself on the horse, and the next morning he would wake up laying in his front yard. The horse always managed to get him home.
>.So I’m thinking you’re either an ET or a sorceress, somebody who can read minds!<
I’m sure more than one person has called me a witch!
On that same board Lenny posted on, a woman posted this story about Sandy:
she once threatened to SHOOT ME if I came onto her property to retrieve my stallion, whom she refused to feed what I provided for him, claiming he was better off thin (the ASPCA got involved in helping me–the police refused to, BTW; the ASPCA said they and many of the locals were in Lenny’s pocket. …I’ve kept pictures–not just of Teddy (Sr.) while he was there, but of his get who were raised there–and others. Pictures don’t lie, folks.
Tractor rundowns? Threatened shootings? Why has no one yet mentioned the banjo music! haha
Oh, and about the non-horsey people trying to report things…
I went to an ag college where we had horses on the school farm. I can’t tell you how many times we got calls from people telling us we’re disgusting for doing experiments blindfolding horses and turning them out.
I hope the felt stupid when we told them that they were fly masks.
I also had a riding student’s father ask me what a horse ate, and evidently he was surprised enough with my answer to ask me “They don’t need to eat meat?”
palominotwist said, “I also had a riding student’s father ask me what a horse ate, and evidently he was surprised enough with my answer to ask me “They don’t need to eat meat?”
You could have really messed with him and told him some horses do and you wouldn’t be lying. LOL. (Don’t remember the particular issue of THE HORSE it was in, though).
I wouldn’t have belived that that could be done.
Haveing been involved with people breeding TBs for racing here in New Zealand I’m very glad to say that the standard practive is to send the infoal mae to the stud farm. The mares are foaled at the stud, bred and return home when the foal is old enough to travel.
I also know that this breeder did “semi foster” a foal onto another of his mares’ that had a live foal, he supplimented both with milk replacement but the foal lived with the other mare. (she was known to try and “steal” foals if she didn’t have one of her own!
INSIDE SCOOP!
I talked to my friend and I remeber, I have driven past this farm. My firend says that she has or had a stallion, and when I went past I remeber a bunch of skinny apps and foals. My friend passes there every weekend and she said the only time the amres are fat is when they are pregnanat.
My old mare raised two foals, it so happened that a lady had a foal that was rejected round about the time my mare’s last foal was being weaned…the vet gave her our number, Dad brought the foal home and she raised him as if he were her own.
This is the same mare that started lactating when a long weaned yearling decided to drink off of her again after another mare had a foal…
Born to be a mother!
Now she is retired…living out her days in a life of leisure at home — queen of all she surveys.
I think the nurse mare industry is terrible. Poor mares and poor people who need them…so many disgusting people out there.
Can I just ask what this “ankles” thing is about. It came up in the one with ten year old girl, but in one of these posts someone has quoted someone who uses ankles when descibing the horse. I have never heard it used by anybody other than a completely non horse person grasping for a way to explain something. Is it actually a term in common usuage in some areas?
My older stallion was rejected by his dam and was bucket raised. He lived with a mare though, and we bought him as a weanling and he ran wiht my two old TB geldings for a couple of years and we were always super careful he knew the boundaries. He has grown into a well adjusted uncomplicated stallion. (If I am repeating myself I apologise – I started to comment on this befere leaving home this morning whne called to help meidcate the cat and think I exited without posting, I scanned through some of this a bit quickly but didn’t see my post about my stallion)
I’ve been to the Kistner farm in Warwick, was toured around by Sandy, and was NOT overly impressed. She offered common, unpapered and unthrifty foals for $350. She did try to push the foals with color and they went from $750, $1,000 and more – again, I was NOT impressed. The foals in the stalls lived on nasty newspaper, were in groups in each stall and a single muck tub of milk replacer. It was obvious she cared more about the ones she said were “fancy”. (side note here: you can go to almost any low end auction house in the fall and find grade and papered foals of comparable quality at lower prices) If these people were smart, they would offer their foals for less, or give them away, so they wouldn’t have to purchase expensive milk replacer and pellets – which she complained about while I was there. My opinion – if she cannot afford to properly care for her orphan foals, then give them away. Those foals could be happier and healthy in homes with people who truly care about them and can afford them. I understand that some nursemare farms actually keep a list of people who will take a foal, and when their nursemare is needed, the foal is immediately placed in to a home. If she were to operate in a similar fashion, at least with the foals she does not care about, she would lighten her load and eliminate work and expense. As for the mares, it was obvious that they had to fend for themselves most of the time. The dominant mares had fair body weight, while the more passive individuals were in poor condition – guess it’s too much work to bring in the skinnies and give them time to eat a full meal. Many needed farrier care, some had rain rot, bite marks and obvious lameness. Inquiries to the sheriffs proved fruitless, they were quick to say they were aware of the situation, but obviously they were not able to do anything, because she’s still operating in the same fashion, just a new location. Kudos to the Dutchess SPCA for taking action, hopefully the horses on the Kistner farm are benefitting from their action and being cared for.
Ah, my old stomping grounds!
Dutchess County has some really great opportunities for horse people. It also has loads of hollows to hide your horses away in, if you’re not the most scrupulous owner. Nothing beat the night I was driving around near midnight and passed a paddock of horses, out and unblanketed, in 10 degree weather.
Sandy seems to have kept herself in business mainly by having Len spread unverified rumours around the web. Wish I knew the barn or had many contacts up that way still, if only to throw in a helping hand.
Nothing beat the night I was driving around near midnight and passed a paddock of horses, out and unblanketed, in 10 degree weather.
I LOVE you East Coasters. You seriously think a horse can’t live on its own with a coat? My horse never gets blanketed and we live in a place where wind chill is easily -15 in the winter. Babies and mares/geldings alike make it through just fine – a bit tubby even!
If you need to blanket because of medical issues, that is fine, but I have never EVER blanketed.
10 degree weather is warm in some places. I have friends in Canada where it can be -20 and no one bats an eye and NO they don’t blanket 9/10ths of their herd.
However, my horses have always had access to shelter and when the ice became a problem last winter, my trainer brought them in and stalled them.
Devil’s Advocate – Exactly! She is so funny, she has to be busy EVERY second… when I come down for a few days (I live in Columbus), we eat at 6 or so, everyone settles down to watch a movie and have a beer, and she works on refinishing the foal room windows/refinishing a chair/building a birdhouse/working on the floor/stitching a blanket……
cutnjump – Draco is really a nice boy – the girl bought him for an obscene amount of money out of a trainer’s in Illinois where he was jumping 5-6′. He is built a little funky in front so maybe 5′ isn’t his calling, but he LOVED to jump and would do great up to the 3’6″ range! AND he passed his vet check when she bought him a year or two ago – whoohoo! ; )
Fugs – OH the pic of the foal biting the guy’s neck, that was our FAVORITE, I ran down to LCC just to show Victoria that AWESOME pic!! How about the one we got who taught the horse that he didn’t get fed UNTIL HE REARED?! Oh my god. You just want to kill some people. I could tell you stories…. I don’t know if anyone gets our newsletter but we had one starvation case that was so thin the vet gave her 10% chance of survival… the owner showed up three weeks later because he thought we were just “gonna fix her up and give her back.” YEAH RIGHT. Then he asked if he could buy another horse from us. Are you stupid, asshole?!
sarahj – it doesn’t look like anyone answered your question. The Jockey Club requires TBs to be bred live cover, they dont’ allow AI, that is why all TB breeders use it. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I think this is to prevent fraud in such a multi-billion dollar industry. Not that fraud doesn’t still occur, but…
Lauren, I think you are write about the issue with the jockey club. The big TB farms also video tape each breeding in case there is a question or issue involving that the breeding took place.
This is a bit off topic but has anyone heard of Decorum’s friend got that little yearling they were going to pick up?
My friend’s mother actually owns and runs Last Chance Corral. We stayed as guests in the foal barn. I have a feeling she would really enjoy this blog. She’s about as snarky as they come!