Discussion: How much training at what age?
Nov 11 2007
(For those of you who complain I’m not “positive enough,” apparently confusing me with Mr. Rogers, the pictures today are of yearlings I think are super great bargains for their price range. They are all $2000 or under. The picture name is their DreamHorse ID…just right click and hit “properties” to see what that picture name is. See, all of you whinos, I’m being positive!)
Best word EVER by the way, who came up with that again? You are brilliant.
I think that we all agree that it’s irresponsible to have unhandled horses that you bred, and I think most of us disagree with riding yearlings here. But past that, how much training do you think is appropriate for a young horse to have at every stage of his life?
Do you handle sucklings while they’re still on their mother? I believe in handling them from birth. I think they need to realize right from the start that humans are a part of their life, just like their mom, and that humans will be touching them all over. You can halter them and start teaching them to lead pretty early on, not to mention picking up their feet. Even a young foal can pick up a foot for a second and it’s a good lesson to learn.
What about weanlings? What are the next lessons? If you start handling at weaning, how do you go about that? What are your tips for approaching the spooky foal? My observation is that they’re a bit like feral cats…it’s easier to get your hands on them if you aren’t making eye contact. Some will let you scratch their butt first; some like the shoulder or even the underside of the jaw. There’s always a first place that you’re allowed to touch on a shy foal, and then it expands from there.
I’ve got a 7 month old and we need to work on holding the feet up for extended periods for the farrier (he picks them up readily, but is fussy about holding them up for trims). I also want to start running the clippers around him. He’s already pretty good for baths. I need to practice loading in the trailer, too, although he didn’t give us the least bit of a fight the first time, and unloaded like he had done it a hundred times. I do not think that will be a challenge with him.
How much do you do with your yearlings? I have a great old polo pony here who will pony anything, so I’m thinking we’re going to do a lot of ponying with my colt next year. I don’t particularly like longeing yearlings because of the torque on their neck and the stress on their joints. We will probably do a little basic longeing to work on voice commands but it’ll be in the round pen so I can do it on a soft line. I’m also planning on taking him to some shows, just to see the sights. I know he will not halter for AQHA, being half Thoroughbred. If we can find a hunter show with in-hand classes, we might give that a try. I really like for them to see everything there is to see in the world before you have to be on their back. Just less drama that way.
I don’t like to push two year olds at all, so at two we’ll do things like pony and longe with tack on. I’ll probably go for some bareback walks in the second half of the year, but I won’t seriously start training him until he’s an honest 3, which will be March of 2010. The plan right now is to get him green broke here, maybe take him to a few hunter schooling shows for ring experience, and then send him out for finishing and serious showing. I already know he is a better colt than I am a rider, so I definitely want him to go to someone who can do justice to him. (After, of course, I research them to death and make sure they are not shady, shortcut-taking horse beaters, of course!)
I actually have someone in mind already, who does AQHA but also does warmbloods, so I’m kind of assuming the odds are good they’re not the kind of folks who tie horses around in a single twisted wire snaffle.
All right, let’s talk – what are you doing with your weanlings? Yearlings? Two year olds? Three year olds? What do you think a horse should know at each age? Please post your breed/discipline if you have a specialty, it’ll be interesting to see how the responses vary.
And a related question: I think a lot of people break out long yearlings because it’s hard to sell them otherwise. Do you think that’s it? I mean, past the 2 year old futurity crap which you know I’m no fan of because some trainers really abuse their legs to get them ready. (Not all, there is no need to e-mail me and defend yourself, I know you’re not all bad.) Do you get unbroke young stock sold, or do you find you pretty much are stuck with them until they are green broke?
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FHOTD…
I’m with Stormie on this one. PLEASE talk about that ranch/BYB from hell. I know next to nothing and even I can see how horribly conformed that Stud is. Why in the world is she advertising the fact that he is downhill?? I quote:
Thunders Smoken Eyes
AQHA Perlino Stallion
Height: 14.2HH (Withers) 15HH (Butt)
When it comes to the videos, I was actually relieved to see that last one of the stud (shudder at the thought!) because he is so downhill I thought it would be impossible for him to canter at all.
But her training vid is a joke. Why in the world would someone post that?? How does someone in their right mind think that a video like that is going to bring in business? And besides that, why would you start a baby in a bit the size of Milwaukee? And with spurs? I realized within 15 seconds that the cinch was too loose… why did it take them 4 MINUTES?! And the guy jumping on her was obviously terrified. That is not the person I want putting the first ride on my baby. No siree.
And I love how she mentions all those great sires in her horse’s pedigree. Too bad none of those sires appear any closer than the GREAT GRANDPARENT generation. Oh, yeah, forget any conformational flaws and get my mare over there ASAP if King is on his papers.
*eye roll*
Please, please do a blog on these people. They so deserve it. May the snark of Fugly reign down…
(btw, this is my first post but I’ve been lurking for a while. Love the blog and have learned a TON about conformation. Keep up the good snark.)
On the bay filly video from the BYB-
I love how the saddle pad is far too far back, so that it’s barely under the front of the skirt but has a good foot sticking out the back, covering the top of her croup!
Must say, I have never really seen the point of round penning. I don’t longe a horse until he/she is five and ready to start getting into whatever serious line of work the horse seems suited for.
Handled from birth. Basic ground manners, trailer loading, good with feet by yearling stage. Local shows in hand (don’t care at all about ribbons, only the little fellows experience). People are good, life is good.
I have a really excellent mare, who I use to full advantage ponying young horses over hill and over dale. Coming two they go out wearing a weigh nothing childs cutback saddle, and rubber bit on a western headstall under the halter. When they are used to that, I have a saddle pad with pockets that I put on them and baby gets to pack our drinking water.
Almost two, I long line.
They get backed at two, by my daughter who weighs 110 lbs. Then we do walk outs every now and again until they are three. If they aren’t flighty, they can learn to pull the jog cart later in the two year old stage.
Three is spent trail riding, flat class here and there at a horse show, gymkhana at a trot, that sort of thing.
At four they start learning to work. I watch for signs of physical and mental strain. If the horse seems stressed, I back way off, give him a break, or switch to another activity. Some horses take longer than others to grow up, just like people.
The filly in the video is only a long yearling!! I would also like to show that man what he can do with his spurs, but am afraid that he may enjoy it too much!
I just noticed that the stallion has a weird look left foreleg from the fetlock joint down.
Am I just imagining thing?
I worked at a Standardbred breeding farm for a while. They did nothing with sucklings. They were halter broken when born and the halters were only fussed with when they got too small. If they fell off in the field, oh well! Then they get a new one when they’re weaned. Vaccinations were a foal hold and an ear twitch. I don’t even know how they trimmed them. This all happened on the mare and foal farm, I worked on the weanling/yearling farm. So then we got them and had to turn them into respectable horses. They were allowed to stay in stalls for a few days when they were first weaned. Then we progressed to turnout, which was often their first experience with leading. They caught on well, but before we really had good time with them we had to throw them out in fields to keep growing up. They only came in (and got handling) if they were hurt or sick and needed treatment. It really sucked, because by the time they were yearlings and needed to come in for sale prep they were big and most knew very little of human handling. It was a rodeo bringing them in from the fields and they stayed in their stalls for a couple days before they started getting turned out. About a week after being in, the grooming started. Then, eventually, work on the hotwalking machine started. That was ALWAYS exciting, getting them to walk into the big scary machine. Their final lesson was accepting the chiffney and learning how to walk for show and stand square. Despite the rough beginning, we always sent horses to the sale that could be handled. It wasn’t easy or anywhere NEAR how I would have done it. I believe in handling from birth. At school we had pony foals and they were always handled from the start and were often very nice ponies. I think they were being free-longed at two and began under saddle at three.
I handle my foals at birth and mess with them till weaning (brushing them and picking feet up)I wait till weaning to halter break them and they start getting their feet trimmed and handled dewormed regular and so on.I do only the basic handling till they are 3yrs old before I start mild training for under saddle by 4 yrs old they should be riding real good and able to trail ride without problems by 5 yrs old they are a very good trust worthy mount.
I believe both of those horses where only around 15 months when the riding videos where taken. To me that is not a long yearling. I have a yearling right now that looks more ready to get on and ride then those poor things do.
I so wish I would have saved the org. website. The training page and the one that they would take in any unwanted horses was a….nice touch.
And the “What we Breed for” is a great read. The names she lists are all on the pedigrees for those two horses. And then she keeps adding to the lines they want to get into. I’m sure she is looking at magazines and websites and just listing anything big name.
Hey, APVal, I work at a Standardbred breeding farm! I am only there twice a week; other people do other shifts. I worked today, and there was a note from the boss saying that as we have no yearlings now (all at trainers) the only reason for keeping us on is to spend lots of time working with the foals, all weanlings now. So that is what I did (as well as feeding, watering, shoveling etc). We handle them all as much as possible, and our yearlings have a reputation for being easy to handle and well mannered.
And I just checked on the internet for the local race results, and two of our 3 year old fillies finished first and third in one of the breeders races!
Here is a question for all: When do you think you should geld your yougster? (age, max growth??)
Fugly – PLEASE PLEASE spotlight that girl!
She is riding a FILLY – a 15 mo old FILLY. It’s disgusting. She had a CURB bit in the horse’s mouth!
How does someone think this is okay! That poor, poor baby!
And it is really obvious from their wormy condition that these yearlings are not getting proper nutrition. Both have teeny tiny feet. In stock horses, that is usually a sign that horses didn’t get proper nutrition as youngsters. They should have strong feet. My yearling has WAY better feet than them. He also doesn’t look a wormy mess. It is obvious that they are feeding them, but WHAT are they feeidng?
colorisnteverything said:
She is riding a FILLY – a 15 mo old FILLY. It’s disgusting. She had a CURB bit in the horse’s mouth!
That’s because the “trainer” is a clueless hillbilly. Look at her setup. Yup. The mark of a hillbilly. Short of branding 666 on her forehead, there are always telltale signs.
And it is really obvious from their wormy condition that these yearlings are not getting proper nutrition.
Well, that fatass in the photos sure hasn’t missed a meal, has she? She looks just as thick and stupid as they come.
I give you Miss Hillbilly 2007. (I think Miss Hillbilly gets one of those crocheted beer can hat tiaras to wear, and a year’s paid rent in the trailer park of her choice.)
Ouch…
to her credit, the round pen is made from heavy pipe panels instead of hot wire and uncapped T-posts like the rest of the property… and that filly looked like HELL when she arrived. Now she only looks like heck.
And her youtube handle is taekwondochick56601. That’s the thickest damned ninja I’ve ever seen. She needs a freakin’ neck sweat for herself and some decent feed for her critters.
Jesus Christ, I hate hillbillies.
Those poor sad horses (the perlino/cremello/ whatever) .
But what do you expect, I read the biography she had only been on a horse three times or something when she bought the colt. Sure everyone has to start somewhere but there (not usually with a stallion) is a lot more will than wisdom going on there.
“I never let anyone tell me I can’t do somethingâ€. Ok that statement is fine when it means I don’t let people put me down and stand in the way of my dreams but a recipe for disaster if it means I don’t listen to sound advice if it is contrary to what I want to do.
Sad sad little horses.
Someone mentioned the roan’s condition in the origional post.
The roan filly has her ribs showing ever so slightly, but is in good shape over all. I’d rather see a hint of ribs, without a worm belly, than a roly-poly, over fed, yearling, who is so fat that they are stressing out their joints.
Sucklings: Day one: We have a halter on/off and touch and probe all over. At night I will also sit in the stall and hold the foal while he/she sleeps. Also they will get their first bath, with mom nearby, in the first couple of months(including cleaning the sheath)They have their feet held, touched and tapped. Before they are weaned they will begin to learn to be ponied with mom, also we start “sacking” them out. They will feel a blanket on their back and a rope around their girth. I feel it is better to start when they are smaller and as they get older they begin to approach new things with the attitude of “What now?” rather “Get Away!”
Weanling: We start walk trot and Whoa by voice command in hand. I feel it is paramount for their safety and ours to have manners instilled at a young age and the best way is to turn a youngster out with a band of older mares and by teaching them the basics such as respecting their human partners. I will also introduce a stud chain, CORRECTLY used. At some point this maybe something they are introduced to and I would rather it be in my care rather than someone I sell the baby to.
I firmly believe that they should not have any substantial weight on their back until they are at least 3 to 4 and lightly if at all at that age. This is not only due to their growth plates and bones but also due to their digital cushion not being fully developed until they are 5 under optimal conditions. We need to stop rushing our youngsters, when we look at older horses that are still able to work comfortably in their senior years what do they have in common? They are not broken down because we started them to young or rushed them through training.
For a blast from the past, here’s how the stable owner where I started riding as a teenager (late sixties to early eighties) did things.
It was a hunter/jumper barn with a small band of broodmares, all dual career. In other words, they had been shown when younger, done well and were now having babies. They were usually left open deliberately every two to three years so that they could be on-site leased to young kids getting their first taste of showing (reasonably easy success hooks’em every time).
Some of the mares were Thoroughbreds, some of the mares were Quarter Horses but back then, many of what were registered as QH were actually 7/8ths or more TB. Remember, this was back before DNA. A few were grade QH mares whose parentage was known but were (for various reasons) never registered. There were usually ten foals a year; selling homebreds was just one revenue stream, not the only one.
They stood their own stallion, an OTTB who had gorgeous movement, a good jump and a really beautiful head (was prepotent for that pretty face, too).
The man who oversaw the broodmares and foals was an old cowboy. How old? Maybe a hard rode 50, maybe a really young 80, it was difficult to tell. He always had what he would call “a quiet way” to do something, by which he meant a way that caused the least amount of stress and upset to the horses.
Most of the mares foaled inside but there were a couple mares who could, I swear, not look close at all at morning feeds and come in for evening feeds with a brand new baby. Monitoring and hormone testing, etc, was really crude to non-existent; we just visually inspected them and hoped we were right.
Handling started within a day or two of birth. Each mare came in from the field in the morning for a feed and grooming. Then they went back out again, spent all day in the field, came back in for an evening feed, then back out into the field overnight. They only had normal sized stalls (12×12) but since mamas and babies were only in for maybe an hour in the morning and half an hour in the evening, it wasn’t important.
The foals had halters on and off for a couple days while us kids messed with their mothers. Their first leading lessons were by either following or walking next to their mothers going back and forth from field to barn and back. Over the first month or so, the person leading the foal would deliberately slow down a bit or turn a little this way and that, nothing dramatic. By the time they were a month old, they could lead in a big circle around their mother, walk away from her, walk back to her (POLITELY!) and back up when we pressed on their chest with a hand.
When they were around a month old, they learned to tie. The reasoning was to teach them while they were still lightweight and not very strong.
At first the foal was held in front of the mare while she was in crossties being groomed. After the first month or so, the foal stayed in the stall with a human to watch and keep them from being idjits while their mother was in crossties right outside the stall. The foals rarely made a fuss, they’d been handled a lot and they could see their mother.
About a month old or so, we introduced grooming by brushing and briefly picking up feet. By the time they were two months old, they were able to be crosstied with their mother right there in the stall so the foal could see the mother. Again, it was very undramatic, there was rarely any fussing at all.
By two months old, the foals were leading really well, so at least once a week, each mare was tacked up and we’d pony the foal off the mare as she went for a little ride. Not long rides and we didn’t do anything all that exciting, it was mostly to get the foals used to the idea that there was a whole big world out there.
By the time the foals were three months, we’d introduced bathing and loading into a trailer. About once a month, we spent a whole day loading up mares with foals and taking them for a fifteen minute ride, unloading in a new place, walking the two around a bit, the loading back up and going back to the stable for the next pair.
Around three months we also started doing things like rubbing the foals with saddle pads working up to very gently flapping them around. All with the mare standing right there. Again, usually there was no drama at all.
Around four to five months, we put little saddle pads on the foals held on with a surcingle while they were being ponied. It was just to introduce them to the feeling of something encircling their rib cage.
At some point, they had clippers run over their bodies while turned on; not actually clipping them but just giving them the feeling of the buzz of the clippers.
They started seeing the farrier every six weeks starting at around two and a half months old; we did things like hold their feet up and bang on them with a hoofpick so that when they were eventually shod it wouldn’t be a totally new sensation.
I don’t recall ever specifically working on respecting human body space or yielding to pressure but the foals were handled so much it just sort of happened.
They were weaned when they were around 6-7 months old. The method was to take one mare out of the group each morning, trailer her over to the other farm and leave the weanling in the familiar group. There was sometimes a little calling but rarely any sort of frantic action.
Oh and the foals started getting their own little feeds morning and night starting around two months old. Not a lot but enough to give them a taste.
Once weaning was over and they were settled down, they were split up as a group. The fillies went to join the working mare band and the colts went to join the working gelding band. Colts were rarely gelded before a year old but I don’t remember why.
Back then, there was a real fashion for feeding weanlings and yearlings to put lots of growth on them and have them really fat. The stable owner felt that was hard on their joints, so our weanlings and yearlings were in good weight but looked pretty scruffy next to some of the weanlings and yearlings that went through sales barns.
And that was pretty much all the handling they got until they were coming three year olds. They got led into the stable twice a day for light feeds, they were groomed two or three times a week, feet trimmed but not shod every six weeks and that was it.
In the spring of their third year, they were introduced to bits and to ground driving.
I don’t know if anyone does this anymore or even if it’s been proven beneficial or not but one thing that was done before any horse was actually backed was to teach them to free longe in a very large pen. Once they free longed well, then they were re-introduced to a saddle pad and surcingle. They usually didn’t bat an eye, even though it was two and a half years since the last time they’d had them on.
Then we had these blue jeans that had the legs sewn shut, filled with sand and the waist sewn shut. There was a snap on each leg that attached to the surcingle. There was a small pair that weighed about ten pounds, a larger size that weighed twenty and so on up to eighty pounds.
The horses were free longed in the large pen (which was maybe 75×100, no great torqueing required) with a set of filled blue jeans on for about half an hour every other day. Each week, the next heavier set of weights was used. This was supposed to develop their back muscles and get their joints used to carrying weight. I don’t know if it did or not but I do know that when we finally got on them, they were able to carry themselves pretty well from the very beginning of riding.
Then they went back out to spend the winter of their third year out at pasture again.
In the spring of their fourth year, real schooling started.
There were usually a couple weanlings sold; they were halter trained, yielded to pressure, tied, crosstied, were used to grooming and baths, were used to having their feet picked up and trimmed, had ponied off their mamas once a week while wearing a saddle pad and surcingle. We were often told how easy these weanlings were for other people to handle.
By the time they were jumping as five year olds, they were pretty much bombproof. Not deadheads–they were, after all, at least half if not more TBs! Just that there was very little that freaked them out and their resistance to trying new things was minimal.
The stable owner usually sold them somewhere between four and six years old as either started under saddle, started over fences or ready for green hunter over fences.
I don’t know if someone could do this today. Us kids (mostly girls) did most of the work for free. Not only did we work, we boarded our horses there, took lessons there and considered it an honour to be considered good enough to work with the foals, etc!
I just thought it was interesting that his method was to intensively work with the foals and then pretty much just turn them out until they were three year olds.
His broodmare manager told us that doing things with horses was easiest when they were still with their mothers; in his words, “Mama acts like a tranquilizer!”
I’m sure it didn’t hurt that all those mares had been extensively ridden and shown and were still sound enough at least for light riding. Most of them were sound enough to be on-site leased to kids whose parents weren’t sure the kid would stay interested in horses, etc, and could still be shown over fences in the junior classes.
For a little midwestern stable, we did pretty well. Every year, some of the green horses sold for what seemed like huge sums of money to us. They went to some of the most prominent owners and riders in the country.
I’m sure FHOTD wouldn’t have considered all those mares as broodmare quality based on their photos but even the ones that weren’t that pretty had proven performance records. The stallion was very successful at passing along his pretty head and beautiful movement, so even the not so pretty mares usually had prettier babies than they were themselves.
Please blog on this one and email it to her:
Thunders Smoken Eyes
AQHA Perlino Stallion
Height: 14.2HH (Withers) 15HH (Butt)
She is uneducated to say the least. Who in their right mind would buy a stud colt for a first horse(for a teenager none the less) and then breed it????
As a QH owner I am disgusted and ashamed of the halter world. Not only for continuing to breed HYPP horses but also for breeding horses whose confirmation could not possibly be utilized in the performance world. I don’t understand why they are so far off track: breeding horses that are supposed to be the ultimate QH yet they are so muscle bound that their athletic ability is almost completely lost. I am ashamed, disgusted and I cringe when I see pictures of horses that look like they are on steroids and standing on little bitty feet. “Yuck!” is all I can say
Actually, I’m pretty sure FHotD did Thunder Bay Ranch before, I’m sure I’ve seen the site and I’m pretty sure it was linked from here before.
Ugh, horrible!
Suvalley:
He’s not a finished gelding, but he’s awfully cute, I found him on our local Craigslist when I was cruisin’ with my sister looking for fuglies to make fun of.
http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/grd/469974526.html
And as an added bonus, they can spell better than the usual frontal lobotomy patients you find posting on places like that
OMG I have just visited the site of Thunder Bay Ranch.
It would be funny if it wasn’t so very sad. The words from her biography that hit me were “I WANT”. So very indicative of the juvenile attitude that pervades the whole horrible mess on show.
She needs a FHOTD wake up call.
What’s the betting her response will be a classic teenage rant. Can’t wait…
Oh and how the hell can LUCKY the tom cat be a “she”. I’ve had cats for 40 years and all the toms have been male (and then neutered). In Thunder Bay Ranch land that would be “spaded”.
Color me stupid, but didn’t someone post on that Thunder’s Smoken Eyes horse before? Maybe there’s more than one stupid fatass out there breeding ugly perlino stallions to equally ugly small bay mares that they “rescued”.
The videos are new, though. I love the bit that came with the bridle thing, and the ungainly bald guy pretty much rewarding the mare for squirting off every time he attempted to get on by falling off
Yeah, getting all kinds of good training there, bub.
Re thunderbay Ranch…didn’t you love the music while the uglier than fugly white stud(oh god) ran around?”I don’t want to close my eyes” no I want to rip them out! YUCK
My first foal… Handled from birth, started leading at 2 weeks, brushed and had feet cleaned, from the very beginning. I plan to start ground driving at 2-2 1/2 years old and start him in harness. I plan to drive him until he’s 4 and then he’ll start training under saddle. He’ll be the only Opus offspring in harness.
Hm. Well, I thought I was doing the right thing, but now I’m not so sure.
I only have one baby and I’ve handled her since birth. The idea was to start early so that the drama later was…well…less dramatic. She was imprinted at birth and handled daily afterward. She was introduced to the halter at 4 weeks and gentle lead-line work began.
Over the last few months, she’s learned to walk *reasonably* well on a lead line. She’s only 6 months old, however, so she still dances around and gets excitable. She’s learned to stand tied for brief periods (5-10 minutes with someone present for emotional support). She stands for hoof care and lifts her feet. She loads and travels well in a trailer and has even been to her first show. (Which was rather anticlimactic, suprisingly enough. Bella was quite fine with complete strangers handling her in this new and loud environment.)
See? It sounds like all sparklies and puppies, doesn’t it? Well it pretty much was…until Halloween afternoon.
We don’t really know what happened as I have very little memory of the accident. However, my *last* memory was of leading Bella somewhere (not very sure where we were going). I am reasonably sure we were approaching the gate of her paddock, but that’s sketchy. And my next memory is of waking up in a pool of blood.
To make a long story short, it appears I was kicked in the head, ostensibly by Bella. I wound up with a severe concussion, an impressively jagged scar down my forehead, and bleeding behind one eyeball. I’m looking at a pretty lengthy recovery here.
And my question is this: what the HELL did I do wrong?
This baby’s been handled since birth. Her mother is as placid as an ancient ocean and her sire is well-bred, well-trained, and he sires good-minded babies. Bella’s imprinted. She knows manners. She’s handled daily. She’s exposed to a myriad of stimuli. She’s in an acre and a half paddock by herself, but she has horses (including her mother) that she can talk to over the fence.
I’m saddened and frustrated. I really thought I was doing this right–but in light of the accident, it’s really making me question everything I know.
Any advice?
I have had 3 babies that I have trained myself. One is a QH, the other a mustang. I didnt ride either until they were 2 1/2, and even then, I only walked for maybe 10 mins max. However, they were handled from birth (except the mustang, I adopted her at 3 months, though she was born in captivity, momma was wild and so baby followed momma’s example). At about 3 months-4 months, they were wearing a teensy youth saddle, weighing maybe 7 lBs maximum. I only made the girth snug enough to hold the saddle in place so I didnt stress their backs too much. They were sooooo lovely to ride at 2 1/2 because they knew what the saddle was, and I had leaned on them some, wrapped my arms around them so they got used to me. I had no issues teaching them to be ridden because they didnt freak at the saddle or when I mounted for the first time. They were also wearing bridles at 1 yr, so they knew what the bit was about, as well as how to long rein. I found that handling them regularly and breaking them to wear a saddle and bridle early made them easier to back when the time came, and they dint have to suffer the stress of being ridden as yearlings (which is way too young for any horse).
anothermonday-
I am so sorry to hear that you were hurt. It seems like we can get away with “shortcuts” from time to time and not get in any trouble, but when you are doing things absolutely right, that’s when something happens.
In case you haven’t heard it for the zillionth time, horses are unpredictable. As much as we know them, trust them, understand them, and respect them, things can happen totally out of the blue. I doubt any specific “I know someone who…” stories will help, but please be assured that it happens more often than people care to admit, and sometimes no amount of training and preparation will prevent a totally uncharacteristic kick or jump.
Just a thought, but it may be possible that she hit you with her head or mouth- that can be just as bad as being kicked, and it might make more sense if she suddenly swung her head around to call to Mom or something. I know I’ve had my lip split more times than I care to remember by a weanling/yearling (not mine, always someone else’s crazy thing) whacking me in the face with their head for one reason or another.
Regardless, I am glad that you are relatively ok, or will be in the long run, and I applaud you for re-evaluating yourself instead of directing your anger at the horse (although a little of that is to be expected! What they don’t understand in English can’t hurt ‘em, right?).
I’m afraid it’s just one of those things, and you caught a pretty unlucky break. No pun intended.
Enjoy your layup though, and I hope you feel better before long.
My filly was 3 or 4 months old before I got her permission to scratch her butt…she was still with her mama when she started to like people. I was there the day she was born (even though her mama isn’t mine, she’s my father in law’s) and fell in love. She’s now over a year old, and can do little basic things. She picks up her feet, doesn’t hold them up for long yet though. She’s a cuddle bug, LOVES to be groomed. She leads well, but still has her moments when she says, “BUT I DON’T WANNA!” She can longe both directions, just on a soft line, as Fugly said about her baby. She doesn’t go above a trot, not unless she’s getting the bucks out. I’m hoping to do some more ground work with her after we get moved to our new place, right now she lives at my folk’s place with my dad’s old broodmare. She’s still not positive that there aren’t filly eating monsters at the other end of the trailer, but we’re working on it. I work with her a few times a week, for maybe 10-15 minutes. Just as long as her attention span holds out.
Saraj –
We geld all of our colts as soon as they can count to two!
So far, we have been lucky and all of them have been able to count by the fall of their birth year. We wait until fall so that the flies aren’t as bad.
Anothermonday, you didn’t do anything wrong – babies can be babies and people can get hurt. My very docile filly started half-rearering yeasterday when I was leading her out to her field. She’s never done that before, bus sure was enjoying herself. Luckily whe wasn’t striking and I was at her shoulder and was able to correct her and get her back in line, but she did try 3 or 4 times to rear. At a certain age, they start getting independent and they can go thru phases at any age. Heck, even a full-grown horse can “have a moment” and kick out when being turned out etc. It’s an accident, and unless it becomes more than a one-time thing, it usually passes. Unfortunately in your case you wer injured. If she had done that and missed, you would have just taken it as she needs more work leading and learning ground manners, but once you get hurt it’s hard to recover and trust again and hard to know if she “meant it” or not. May be best to have a trusted trainer work with her while you recuperate…. Sorry you were hurt.
Sarahj asked about when to geld. . .
If we know they are not stallion material, we have them gelded as soon as they drop–usually around seven months. If they reach two intact, but show temperment problems as they enter training, they become geldings.
Gelded my beautiful, well behaved, well performing cutting horse at four because I decided I was not going to raise any more and probably would not breed enough outside mares to warrant the liability of maintaining a stallion, no matter how well behaved. (His problem in a group was that unless they actually looked or were told he was a stud ost people did not know he was. Other horses, of course, did know what he was, especially mares whose ditsy riders would let them bump, rub, squeal, and otherwise signal their desire to him; he was not allowed to twitch an ear.)
Gelded our 22 year old stallion so he could go off and be a kid’s first horse. (He could have done this as a stallion, but again would have the liability issue; we used him as a child’s, invalid’s, beginner’s mount for ten years as a stallion right along with his breeding career.)
So the real answer is any age is the proper age to geld.
rosesr4evr said, “The roan is only out of a big name stud and no name/non performing mare.”
Out of a stud?
That sorrel filly is priced right (she’s NOT a Paint, BTW. She has the rabicano gene and is registered as a sorrel, as she should be). Your average horse has decent top lines and mediocre bottom lines anyway. Pedigree doesn’t guarantee a quality horse. Proven parents doesn’t guarantee a quality horse, either.
I have never had a mare that I own have a foal. I have bought all my horses at weaning. I work with them everyday. They know how to tie, clip, bath, pick up feet, and stand for grooming and ferrier work. I sometimes start my yearlings late in the year. Like around this time. I use my 17lb. saddle and pony or go to the round pen for maybe 15 minutes. I also like to drive them. I will run lunge lines through the stirrups so that they know how to turn and stop before I ever get on their back. I also like to work them with obsticles from the ground. When they reach 2 I will try short rides, about 20-30 minutes, if they are ready. In April I am going to send my paint filly for western pleasure training. She will be 26 months old. I don’t really care about the big 2 year old futurities. Later on in the year there is still the Reichert Celebration and the Oklahoma Holiday Classic, so plenty of time for a slow start. I have also taken her to one of my horse shows with my colt I was showing and then to a fun show just to be there without a companion. She did fine. A little nervous but stayed focused on me. I also put her at a neighbors house that has a pasture by the road so she could get used to cars with out being right on the road. Didn’t even bat an eye. Just ate her grass. I think it depends on each horse how much you can do within certain limits. I have another paint colt that I probably won’t even put a saddle on till late in his 2′s just because he isn’t as developed as the filly. But I still mess with him every day and I plan on starting to drive him just for the experience he’ll need later on. By the way, I have started all of them out as halter horses with intention of riding them later on. Not the 00 feet and post legs or yearlings pushing 16 hands. Saw that at a show I was at in Stillwater. Here I was standing there with my 14.2 yearling with 16 hand horses, the same age, in the same class.
I guess I’ve been lucky…I’ve had weanlings come in at 5 months with no handling and the’ve done fine after a week. I’ve had babies handled since birth be absolute pains. It goes both ways. I wean at 3.5 months with an older companion with no problems. I geld at 2-3 months too.
Backing is done as late 3 yr olds early 4, depends on the horse. None are the same so I let them dictate the pace. I’ve seem them backed at 18 months and I can’t stand it, but then I’m in it for the love…NOT the money
Thunder Bay Ranch. Even the name of it is ridiculous, being Thunder Bay is in Ontario. What a sad sack place and what a bunch of fat idiots. Nothing I saw on the site or on the bizarre videos was worth anything. These people have no idea what they’re doing, and in the process are going to be teaching nothing but bad habits to these horses. GACK!
Thunder Bay Ranch–
Am I the only one who likes that stallion? I mean, not for breeding, but he just looks so FRIENDLY.
I personally can’t ever see past the perlino/cremello coloring…I know, I’m colorist…I just don’t like it very often…but this horse is just CUTE.
Oh my – I’m so far behind! So, going O/T to answer a question posed on Friday…..
FARMERS WIFE and COLORISNTEVERYTHING – to answer your student loan question, students loans are similar to any other debt (or asset). If the individual incurred the debt (or acquired the asset) before the marriage AND the spouse is not a co-signer on the loan and has done nothing to assume a joint responsibility for the debt, typically the loan belongs only to the individual who incurred it. For example, I incurred my student loans years before I got married. They are solely in my name. All payments come solely from my bank account and my salary. If I die, the loan companies would be entitled to any assets from MY estate (my bank or retirement accounts, horse trailer, rather large manure pile) to cover the outstanding debt, but would be hard pressed to take my husband’s assets (HIS bank or retirement accounts, car, etc.). It is a question of proof – in my case it would be fairly easy to prove the student loans are NOT a joint debt.
However, if the student debt was incurred after marriage, the happy couple would have to take care to document who the debt belongs to to avoid it being considered a joint debt or Wife’s debt in event of death, divorce, bankruptcy, etc., (proviso, of course, that in some circumstances the loan may be considered a joint liability no matter what). For example, if Husband and Wife got married, then Husband gets student loan solely in his name. Wife must make sure HER credit rating or their JOINT credit rating is NOT considered during the loan application and approval process. Wife must not co-sign the loan, allow her assets (her separate bank account, for example) or joint assets (joint bank account, joint credit card, or house, for example, assuming it is owned jointly) to secure the loan. Wife must not contribute payments to the loans and must not accept any tax benefit from the loan (some student loan interest is tax deductible) – filing separate tax returns is one way to accomplish this. Drafting a pre- or post-nup may be another way to clearly define who the debt belongs to…depends on state law. BUT AGAIN, PROVISO, in some circumstances it may be impossible to limit the debt to only Husband. Any good tax and estate-planning lawyer should be able to provide individual advice on this. (Everybody should have an up-to-date will; newly-weds, new parents, new grandparents, or the newly-divorced in particular!)
Anyway, I hope that helps. Given the substantial amount of law school debt I brought into my marriage, this was a huge issue for me. My hubby wasn’t too bothered by it (bless his heart), but *I* wanted to be sure he would never get stuck with my student loans. Certainly this is an issue your daughter and 3L bf/fiance (?) should discuss BEFORE getting married. My sister and her (then law student) husband did not, and it has been a source of much strife in their marriage.
Wow… good answer geld the fugly! That was very helpful.
Can you bill that? Just kidding, of course.
Sarcastabitch, he would be a cute gelding, but with those feet, I wouldn’t touch him with a 10 foot pole. He has the feet of a minature horse.
And to whoever said that they are happy to see a healthy weight on a yearling, I am too, but I don’t like to see them looking wormy and under-nourished. I knew people that fed pig feed because they didn’t feel like spending the extra $.
Sometimes it happens to the best horse people, but of that is the case, you should call the feed store and say, Spot has XYZ, how do I fix this? The best thing to do for them is put them out in a 10-acre pasture that has been seeded with lose minerals availible from time to time IMO. That is where both mine were this summer. They were both dappled and happy and my pally mare has NEVER been dappled like she was this year – and that was with a drought!
SUValley: there is a mare on Seattle CL that they claim went to the Appaloosa world show and placed. She is a cute snowcap. Here is the ad: http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/grd/469681520.html
They are open to offers, and I do know the first ads had her priced at 2500 but I would be she would take much less.
Absolutely assist in foaling, imprint immediately. Foal halter and outside with both lead rope and butt rope. Grooming and hoof picking at 1 week. First farrier 2 months, usually rasp only to help correct any angular deformities. After weaning, they come to the barn daily for grooming and feeding. Regular farrier, vaccine, and worming schedule. As yearlings, they learn to tie. They learn to free longe, learn to whoa. Learn to stand up and be shown. If I am smoking lot’s of crack, they get hand walked around the farm where they get spooked and try to kill me. They get desensitized to as much as possible. Tarps, cavalleties, whips (run all over their bodies), bags, kitties, whatever happens. At two, same things, may learn cross tying, wash rack, more hand walking, ponying, exposure, exposure, exposure. Trailering starts young too. Break to saddle as a late three year old.
Fugly, I’m with you on the crappy disco/hiphop/poppy Thunder Bay music–gaak!! Really fits the videos, don’t it!
I watched the vid of the filly in the round pen, w/ the “breeders” attempting to climb onto it. Gee, ya think they might have done some groundwork a long time before to teach the horse to stand still?! That’s not so hard. When I backed my colt for the first time, he *stood*. I let him think about it for a minute, then dismounted. Of course, he wasn’t a toddler at that point either!
sarcastabitch said…
Thunder Bay Ranch–
Am I the only one who likes that stallion? I mean, not for breeding, but he just looks so FRIENDLY.
I personally can’t ever see past the perlino/cremello coloring…I know, I’m colorist…I just don’t like it very often…but this horse is just CUTE.
November 12, 2007 7:23 AM
Yeah, I gotta say… not seeing it. I AM notably harder on double dilute horses, but I wouldn’t touch that colt, even as a $500 gelding, for love or money.
While he DOES look like he’s got a good and trainable personality (look on YouTube if you want to see a video of the owner getting on him AS A YEARLING), but he’s got looooong crooked front pasterns, and that ALWAYS spells disaster.
The mare toes out too, so you better believe the foals they produce will have just WONDERFUL legs.
WHY WHY WHY does everybody and their brother feel the need to own and keep a stallion? WHY??
There are SO MANY OTHER THINGS TO DO WITH HORSES BESIDES BREED THEM! Want babies?? Buy some of the THOUSANDS that go through the auction as byproducts of other people’s breeding programs.
I’ll never understand people who either DON’T look at a horse’s conformation or REFUSE to be intelligent about breeding faults to faults.
The best personality in the world isn’t going to save a horse who is lame. It’s not going to save a horse whose conformation inhibits it from performing correctly.
The whole part of the breeding philosophy is to breed better horses than you start out with… not to create a few foals to sell for hay and show fees or whatever.
And certainly not because you see value in the animals involved that nobody else can see (i.e. – Neil and his Blazers or that crazy woman with the foundation apps).
But Sarcastabitch, I do agree – he does look friendly.
forthefutureofthebreed said…
FHOTD – Don’t be so quick to discount a QH for halter because he’s 1/2 TB. There are a few new ones out there bred that way. I’m not judging this particular horse (link below) either way, just pointing out that there are some halter breeders thinking outside the box.
http://derenzoaqha.com/DeRenzo.html
I am pleased to see good TBs being used.
If the trainer/judges will do what they all say they’re going to do (use horses who look like they could actually DO something besides stand there), this will be a good thing.
November 11, 2007 10:26 AM
I noticed him too! They certainly are pumping out the dollars to promote him, aren’t they!
Even Grace Berton, whom I’m not a terribly huge fan of, is breeding thoroughbred mares to Sir Cool Skip and having REALLY nice results. While the results are N/H, which I DON’T agree with breeding, I still can acknowledge and admire her foresight in realizing that the future is NOT in the super-heavy quarter horse foundation lines.
It’s going to be in the outcross.
I really don’t understand the stock and racehorse folks who rush there babies to the ring under saddle. A 3-yr-old cutting futurity? WTF? I have a friend whose 4-yr-old was just put down following a torn deep digital flexor tendon that occured during a cutting run. The mare had been under saddle since 2 yrs old and cutting since 2 1/2. Someone even mentioned backing a filly 6 months after her first heat – which means my youngest would have been started at 15 months – NUTS! Just because a youngster is 15 hands or looks like it has a strong structure does not mean it is physically or mrntally ready to ride. My 3-yr-old Arab has a 3/4 brother who is the same age. with a few weeks difference. He has been under saddle for five months now, and she still isn’t physically ready. Not everyone can afford x-rays to see if a youngster is ready, but use common sense. A well taken care of horse can be useful under saddle for more than twenty years. Why risk an animal’s future by rushing to get on his back? And stock horse breeds aren’t the only ones. Saddlebreds and NSH had 2-yr-old under saddle classes as well. The futurities need to extend the age bracket an extra year, and make a minimum age of 4 for the “high impact” performances (cutting, reining, etc.) The AERC and NATRC have minimum ages for their competitions and even limit the miles a young horse is able to compete at.
Geld the Fugly: I live in Washington State, and I believe that since we are a community property state, when you marry someone you marry their bills too. I’m no attorney but that is what I have been taught.
rosesr4evr said…
The roan filly is priced $200 more than the very beautiful sorrel. Why?? Got me. The roan is only out of a big name stud and no name/non performing mare. She’s downhill and doesn’t look like she’ll “grow” into it as her hocks are quite a bit higher than her knees. Her parents are both taller than 15.2, which probably won’t due her any favors when it comes to Western Pleasure (taller horses generally don’t have true WP movement) She’d be better advertised as English prospect due to her size and little bit of an upright neck.
The sorrel filly, however, is bred out of 2 (wow 2!!) performing parents and looks like what they say she is/will be.
I humbly disagree with your assessment of this filly.
Jon Ian, her dam’s sire, won $52k+ on the track, and has sired race winners.
She also goes back to Azure Te, who is notable in his prepotency.
I wouldn’t discount that mare just yet. She’s only a yearling, she could sprout up another full hand before it’s all said and done.
I don’t know if you subscribe to the Journal or not, but recently this individual caught my eye and I was very impressed.
http://www.huntseathorses.com/news.php?article=447
His dam, Perfect World, was a TB ‘done nothing’ race winner of $44k.
I think that filly stands a very VERY decent shot as a hunter jumper. ESPECIALLY for a youth rider, who can get away with riding a smaller horse better than an adult.
oh_for_crying_out_loud said…
I noticed him too! They certainly are pumping out the dollars to promote him, aren’t they!
Even Grace Berton, whom I’m not a terribly huge fan of, is breeding thoroughbred mares to Sir Cool Skip and having REALLY nice results. While the results are N/H, which I DON’T agree with breeding, I still can acknowledge and admire her foresight in realizing that the future is NOT in the super-heavy quarter horse foundation lines.
It’s going to be in the outcross.
It HAS to be in an outcross. There’s nowhere to go but down if they limit their gene pool like they are doing now.
Exactly.
Cutting is the WORST for it too.
They have a scant handful of dam lines and sire lines, and that’s IT.
Scary.
Here I go with the unpopular response. I wasn’t going to post it but since anothermonday posted about her injury, I will.
Where I’m from (Spain) babies are not handled much at all and brought in for training after a year old. It’s believed that it builds in a certain safety factor.
This is illustrated in my own experiences too. I have a milk foal orphan who was hand raised by his original adopter and a BLM mustang who was gentled by me as a yearling (approx 13-14 months old).
The orphan is now coming 4 years old and he thinks nothing of stepping on your feet and when he gets uncertain about something, he tries to get as close to you as he can. I’m like momma to him and he seeks comfort by physical proximity. If he was of a flighty personality, he would routinely put people in the hospital. He also tries to play with people like they are horses. While this has ALWAYS been discouraged, it’s still there to a minor extent. Even though he has been raised carefully and with other horses, he is still has ingraned behavior that could be considered dangerous to people.
On the other hand my BLM yearling (now 2 1/2) is still curious, and dog gentle. Loves attention! But he is respectful of my space and if uncertain or scared, he moves away from me. I can still go with him and give him exercises to think about but I don’t have to worry near as much about being stepped on or run over.
The difference is that with the mustang I had to take 2 weeks of training to get my hands all over him so I could start his ground work. I don’t see that as a big deal.
For me it depends on what the goal is with the foal. If you raise them to sell them trained or keep them for yourself, then why not wait. If your goal is to sell youngsters, then I suppose they should be handled early.
There’s pros and cons to both theories of horse raising.
besides, Dr. Miller says that if you cannot do imprinting correctly, as he has laid it out, then you should not imprint. For the experiences I’ve had, I agree with him.
If I were to import a youngster from Spain (PRE) I would fully expect to recieve a minimally handled horse and that is fine with me. Otherwise, I’d import a horse that is at least 2 years old who has it’s ground work finished.
I’ll also say that I don’t think anyone should have 200 unhandled horses- even babies. It’s responsible business in a capitalist society that keeps product availability just below demand.
Here is a pic of the Sir Cool Skip appendix colt:
http://tinyurl.com/28bxlf
Not the best picture, but aside from the fact he is N/H, I think it was a nice cross.
Question for everyone who would not dream of getting on a horse’s back before three. What about driving/pulling a cart? What do you consider the proper age to start training to pull? (I ask because if my yearling stays small he will be a cart pony – I have no intentions of selling him just because he is too short for me to ride!)
I am an experienced endurance rider (9 years, 4000 AERC miles) who is bringing along my young horse, Frank, now that my first endurance horse is nearing retirement. In our sport, a horse must be 4 to enter a limited distance ride and 5 to enter a ride of 50 miles or more. Frank had LOTS of excellent ground work before I got him in August, but I was the first to sit on his back – when he was 3 yrs, 5 months. He is athletic but I am limiting miles/hours in saddle to no more than 1-2 hours and 10 miles total per day. He just had a growth spurt and really needs to fill out before I’ll be more comfortable increasing his workload, but with steady work he should be ready for a 25 miler next fall. His full brother, 2 years older, has completed over 10 slow 50 milers in his first year of competition. In our sport, if you are cautious about speed and build distance slowly but steadily, you can hope to reach 5,000 miles in about 10-15 yearts on a well-conformed horse before you retire him.
oh_for_crying_out_loud said…
Here is a pic of the Sir Cool Skip appendix colt:
http://tinyurl.com/28bxlf
Not the best picture, but aside from the fact he is N/H, I think it was a nice cross.
I have to agree. It’s a step in the right direction, and leave out the HYPP N/H part.
We have a 3-1/2 yr old filly on the farm right now. She’s by a Paint out of an Arabian. The paint is known to be slow to mature and her dam was started/trained to ride as an 8 yr old. The filly is owned by my boyfriend, who started riding as an adult (about 4 years ago). He plays club polo, trail rides, and we do hunter paces/low-level jumping.
The filly arrive as an unhandled weaner. That first winter I halter-broke her, handled every part of her, and taught her to pick up her feet. She also learned that humans are the source of yummy grain and butt scritches.
As a yearling, we continued in-hand manners. I had my SO lead her around the farm as much as possible, getting her used to sights and sounds, crossing water, etc. We also worked on despooking with blankets and other flappy/noisy things, including having her follow a kicked soccer ball around.
As a two yr old, we continued the same lessons (i.e. holding her feet up for longer periods of time). I would have liked to have done more, but my SO was working out of town. By this point, I could lean over her back, flap on her sides with my hands, toss a blanket on her head, and pony her anywhere and over anything.
As a three year old, we’ve worked more on trailer loading (it’s a step-up stock, so she has to jump in and out), bathing and clipping, hanging out tied at the trailer for longer periods of time, ponying at speed, and ponying off the farm. She’s also used to the polo mallet and ball handled from the ground and will hop over knee-high logs in hand.
This fall (as a 3.5 yr old) she spent a month with the trainer. He did some round penning (longing on voice commands), more despooking, saddled, bridled, and rode her very lightly. She thought it was the best “horse camp” ever.
She’ll go back next spring as a 4 yo for trail riding 101 (he likes to start babies by just solo trail riding them all over the place) and then will get lightly worked under saddle all summer. I’ll also start riding her in the arena when people are hitting the polo balls around. She’ll be at least 5 before we start jumping and polo training.
Mentally, this one could be under saddle ‘for real’ right now. But physically she’s still doing a lot of growing (string test says she has another hand in her) and is going through a very gawky and downhill phase. She’s probably only going to be a stocky 15-15.2 anyway, so I’d prefer she get to the point where my feet won’t drag in the dirt before I get on.
“Question for everyone who would not dream of getting on a horse’s back before three. What about driving/pulling a cart? What do you consider the proper age to start training to pull?”
——————————
Ground driving, any time. I have a friend who starts hers on long lines at 1.5 or 2.
I would wait until at least riding age and being conditioned appropriately before asking a baby to pull weight. From what I’ve read, it stresses the hocks and can lead to serious problems if you do too much weight too young.
I guess my guy was a little “undertrained” for his age (2.5) when I bought him, but he was quiet and did:
(a) lead and stop when I did;
(b) Work quiet in a round pen and on the lunge;
(c) Tie;
(d) Quietly, if reluctantly, pick up his feet and stand quietly for farirer;
(e) Load in trailer (slowly but quietly and by slowly, I mean, maybe 3 minutes, mostly just with someone “clucking” to him from behind.
(f) accept a surcingle around his belly witout fuss. At age 3, I took him to a colt starter, and she says he DID buck when she first put a stock saddle with a rear cinch on him. That lasted for two saddlings, then he didn’t care and she was riding him within a week of receiving him for training.
I don’t think a cross that results in an N/H can EVER be referred to as a “nice cross.” I don’t care how “innovative” the breeder is said to be. It is a fault, and a potentially lethal one that that. It’s similar to saying that breeding a National Champion stallion who is a SCID carrier ta a WC titled mare who is also a SCID carrier is worth the risk. I know a 3-yr old mare who is crippled for life by OCD. Her dam and every sibling have the same disorder. Other than that, she is a very nice cross . . .
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sjubla/sets/72157603090326103/
I tried to post before, but it seems to have disappeared. Anyway – I took these pictures over the weekend of a filly out of a mare that we rescued from an auction. (We did not breed her, she happened to be pregnant when we got her. And they are both going to be forever horses.) She a sweet girl, who inherited her mom’s gigantic neck (*sigh*). I’m a little too biased and untrained to really assess her conformation – if anyone has any comments I would REALLY appreciate it. Nesty? Post legged? Help me!
Lynne said…
I don’t think a cross that results in an N/H can EVER be referred to as a “nice cross.” I don’t care how “innovative” the breeder is said to be. It is a fault, and a potentially lethal one that that. It’s similar to saying that breeding a National Champion stallion who is a SCID carrier ta a WC titled mare who is also a SCID carrier is worth the risk. I know a 3-yr old mare who is crippled for life by OCD. Her dam and every sibling have the same disorder. Other than that, she is a very nice cross . . .
Neither do I, and that’s all we were saying – similar to your last sentence – nice direction, and leave out the genetic defect part.
and the third pic is a welsh cob colt …I knew it when I saw him but had to trace the pic back….he is a grandson of Nebo Daniel….which means nothing to non Cob people but it is nice to see one of our own on the “happy” page…
Lynne said…
I don’t think a cross that results in an N/H can EVER be referred to as a “nice cross.” I don’t care how “innovative” the breeder is said to be. It is a fault, and a potentially lethal one that that. It’s similar to saying that breeding a National Champion stallion who is a SCID carrier ta a WC titled mare who is also a SCID carrier is worth the risk. I know a 3-yr old mare who is crippled for life by OCD. Her dam and every sibling have the same disorder. Other than that, she is a very nice cross . . .
November 12, 2007 10:23 AM
Uh, did you not understand what I wrote?
Nice cross WITHOUT the N/H… looking at that colt, he’s balanced, has a MUCH MUCH nicer hock set than what is currently popular, and is structurally MORE correct than what is currently out there in the quarter horse world.
No reason you couldn’t cross a thoroughbred mare on, say, Mr. Yella Fella or The Package and get the same sort of thing. Sans HYPP.
THAT was my point, that obviously was missed.
Just for argument’s sake, how do you feel about people breeding untested Poco Bueno horses?
It’s the same thing, only instead of just having the threat of HYPP, which is something they have developed medications to help regulate, there IS no medication and the horse has to be put down to avoid agonizing pain.
Or how about GBED? They’ve linked that, albeit less absolutely, to King.
Or how about some of the conformational flaws seen thorughout the equine world that cause lameness, which can be just as sure a death sentence as HYPP or HERDA.
While I am NOT an advocate in ANY WAY for breeding N/H horses, I CAN look beyond it and see the horse STRUCTURALLY for what it is.
Would I personally breed one?
No.
But can I recognize when a cross has been made that might lead to a more forward-thinking breeding standard?
Absolutely.
Not all N/H horses are the muscle-bound rhinos like Kids Classic Style. And all muscle-bound rhinos aren’t N/H. The reality is that you CAN’T tell from looking at a horse what it’s HYPP status is.
Which is why they have tests, and those tests are required for registration.
I have only brought alone one youngster from the very start, but this was what I did, after buying her as an unhandled weanling:
weanling: learned to halter, lead, stand still, accept touching/grooming, pick up feet
yearling: more of the same, lots of ponying added in off my big quiet old gelding. A little bit of natural horsemanship type groundwork
2 years old: wearing tack, light lunging, ground-driving (I can’t say enough good about ground driving. It is a huge relief to have steering right from the first ride).
late in her two year old year, I start sitting on her, and doing some very light (20 mins walk/trot rides) occassionally over the winter
3 years old: started to school, still lightly, but more regularly and for a little longer, and added in some canter
4 years old: ridden regularly w/t/c canter, lots of trail riding, and added small jumps. Late in the four year old, started a regular program of jumping lessons
5 years old: started showing low hunters (where we are now)
staceirene – It looks like no one answered your question, so I took a look at your photos. I didn’t see anything glaringly wrong with her conformation. I don’t think you have anything to worry about as far as soundness issues due to poor conformation. The angle of her hocks is good. Her pasterns look ok, too. Nothing spectacular, and nothing major wrong with her. Just give her a good home, love and take care of her properly, school her for something when she’s old enough, and she’ll be a useful member of the equine community.
I bought my 3y/o Paint gelding with 10 rides on him for $1300. He was (is) beautiful, with a strong pedigree too. He could barely w/t under saddle when i got him and the people already had rowel spurs on him (!!!!????). That quickly changed when I got him home.
I brought him home June 30, 2007 and was able to bring him to the county fair on August 22, competing in 2 gait classes, and he could do verrry minimal loping (NEVER showed loping, just to clarify).
Anyway, hes bred for western pleasure, and hes just about finished growing. Ive been progressing his training slowly and building his stamina. He knows how to walt and trot easily, circleing, etc. We’re currently working on picking up the lope with a positive attitude, and maintaining it. Hes coming along great. Hes just starting to learn collection too, but Im certainly not pushing it.
I think that foals and yearlings definetly need handling, if only just that. Personally, I’d like the foal to know how to lead, load, clip, bath and hold his feet up.
2 y/os should start longing, and attending local shows for halter and longeline. maybe in hand trail too for good experience.
At a solid 3 they can have saddle work done, that is learning how to hold a saddle, and then moving into riding. It kinda depends on the horse and breed for if they are physically capable or not to hold a person. But 2y/o futurity, same with racing and crap, that rediculous. I dont want to start that though cause itll piss me off (lol).
Lastly, I think you dont need your stock trained in order to sell it. Of course this is for only young horses, not mature ones. Babies should be used to human contact. But maybe for 2 or 3 y/os have then broke to longing and having a saddle on.
Thanks!
forthefutureofthebreed said…
rosesr4evr said, “The roan is only out of a big name stud and no name/non performing mare.”
Out of a stud?
That sorrel filly is priced right (she’s NOT a Paint, BTW. She has the rabicano gene and is registered as a sorrel, as she should be). Your average horse has decent top lines and mediocre bottom lines anyway. Pedigree doesn’t guarantee a quality horse. Proven parents doesn’t guarantee a quality horse, either.
I do apologize for my error-the one about OUT of a stud instead of by. However if you look at the sorrel filly’s ad she is indeed REGISTERED in the APHA. I was not referring to what color she was registered as, just her breed association. And I do seem to remember posting somewhere here that even if you breed the best to the best it’s still a crapshoot. The problem is, and you said it yourself..Your average horse has decent top lines and mediocre bottom lines anyway.
This is true, however this is what happens when so many people breed “decent” and “mediocre” bloodlines…you just get decent and mediocre offspring. Why not breed the best to the best and hope for the best?
Isn’t that what’s being said on here? Don’t breed FUGLY?? I don’t care if it has 2 World Champ parents and they are gorgeous, if the offspring aren’t just as nice or better, then it shouldn’t be bred.
oh_for_crying_out_loud said…
I humbly disagree with your assessment of this filly.
Jon Ian, her dam’s sire, won $52k+ on the track, and has sired race winners.
She also goes back to Azure Te, who is notable in his prepotency.
I wouldn’t discount that mare just yet. She’s only a yearling, she could sprout up another full hand before it’s all said and done.
I don’t know if you subscribe to the Journal or not, but recently this individual caught my eye and I was very impressed.
http://www.huntseathorses.com/news.php?article=447
His dam, Perfect World, was a TB ‘done nothing’ race winner of $44k.
I think that filly stands a very VERY decent shot as a hunter jumper. ESPECIALLY for a youth rider, who can get away with riding a smaller horse better than an adult.
November 12, 2007 9:25 AM
I was only remarking that the roan filly was priced higher than the sorrel(yeah she’s a bit roly poly), who IMO is much better quality and has better bloodlines(crosses to Sonny Dee Bar-versatility and Zippo Pine Bar-WP superstar)and has already been shown! The roan is being marketed as a WP prospect in her ad, whereas I thought she would make a better prospect for English disciplines, especially with her height potential and breeding. Her sire is 17.2hh and dam is 15.3. I’m currently looking for WP prospect and we try to stay below 16hh and it seems a lot of taller horses have difficulty moving well for WP. Note: I am NOT saying big/tall horses don’t move well!
Also the (wow 2!!) performing parents was somewhat sarcastic. I was being a little facetious.
AnotherMonday wrote: “We don’t really know what happened as I have very little memory of the accident. However, my *last* memory was of leading Bella somewhere (not very sure where we were going). I am reasonably sure we were approaching the gate of her paddock, but that’s sketchy. And my next memory is of waking up in a pool of blood.”
I’ve had more than a couple whacks on the head and only a few were associated with horses. The most recent one, I was out for at least an hour in a motel bathroom (no horses in sight). I lost the 12 hours preceding the fall and now I can’t remember the 24 hours right after it–even though I’m told I gave an excellent talk as the keynote speaker of the conference. Even answered questions afterwards and everything; they tell me I acted completely normal. I guess I’m glad but I wish I could remember!
Do you have any sense of how long you were out? Where was the filly when you came to? Did she seem spooked in any way?
“I’m saddened and frustrated. I really thought I was doing this right–but in light of the accident, it’s really making me question everything I know.
Any advice?”
Well, not knowing exactly what happened, it’s hard to say what happened, if you see what I mean.
One common mistake that we were taught to avoid was turning foals loose as soon as they got through the gate to the field. Too much excitement and too little brainpower made it a high risk time.
We were taught to lead the mare and foal at least fifty feet into the field, then turn mama loose. The mares were all quiet and well handled, so they knew not to take off at a run.
We then had a little leading lesson with the foal. Since the mare was standing right there, the foal wasn’t upset or worried. This is usually the first place they were ever led in a circle around their mothers, for instance.
We didn’t take the halter off the foal until it was paying attention and fully engaged in whatever we were doing.
After halters came off, we walked back to the gate of the field, went through and *after* the gate was shut, we gave out carrots or bites of sweetfeed (they were fed straight oats but got sweetfeed as treats).
The broodmare manager told us that by doing things this way, the foals learned from the beginning to stay calm both before being turned loose and after being turned loose. By giving them treats after we closed the gate, we were getting them in the habit of facing the humans as we left, which is much safer than horses that immediately turn away.
When I see people whose horses get all snorty before they open the gate and rip their heads out of the halter while turning, I just cringe. Of course, people always do this right inside the gate where they are trapped up against the fence, too!
If you haven’t already installed some training to make turn out times as low risk as possible, perhaps this is something you could do to avoid possible accidents. There’s no way of knowing if it was approaching her paddock that made Bella lose her little itsy-bitsy filly brain before your injury but it’s possible.
For me all horses and ponies are different and mature at different rates etc.
Birth, l try to be there for all births so l can handle/imprint foal BEFORE it gets up even, l spend a lot of time during the weeks leading up to birth making sure my mares will accept me being with them.Extremely small halter goes on at birth except for pony foals.6 weeks or so of age we start leading/pick up feet lessons etc.
They’re handled everyday to some extent even if it be just pats.i try to get all visitors with kids to say hello(over the fence for safety) so the foals get used to seeing different people.
l will wean depending on maturity of animal and how mare is faring between 4 and 7 months.Usually try to wean 2 together for company for the first 2 weeks or so, then separate them for another 4 weeks during the night and work with them separately teaching a small amount of lunging etc.
Turned out approx 6 weeks after weaning but still handled in some way every day.
Evaulate them as 2 yr olds as to what amount of work their bodies will cope with as no point breaking down babies.
For example right now l have a lovely 2 yr old colt l bought him a little down(malnourished) and he’s slowly maturing now, have mouthed him as l wont put a bit in a horses mouth just to jerk them around etc must be mouthed so as to respect and not be hurt by using bridle for control etc.He’s now doing some more long rein work as well as lead work for in hand classes.Over the next few months he’ll be broken to harness and worked in cart for about 4 weeks once at that stage then left again. He will not be ridden until he’s 3 and a half or more years of age but might do a few weeks harness here and there to help build his shape etc.
l have another very mature 2 yr old filly who will be started under saddle over the next few months and then turned out as green broke for our winter brought back in around august and worked up again, taken to a couple of shows for in hand classses, after she’s 3 she’ll be used in leading rein classes with a very small capable 6 yr old.She will not be excessively ridden by heavy weights or anyone until after she is 4 yr old and even though she’s for sale she wont be sold unless exactly the right people come along as l want to see her have a future not be wasted.
l’ve gabbled on lots but in then end it still comes down to
EVERY horse is DIFFERENT. l had one who wasnt broken in till 5 due to her lanky gangly growth spurts
I purchased a foal before he was born because I loved the parents.
When the colt was one week old I visited and held him while someone snapped a photo.
Until I brought him to my home, when he was three months, I drove two hours to see him. I brushed him, talked to him, handled his feet.
Now he is four months old and is here in my barn. He is handled every day. Brushing, talking, feet handled, leading, moving over from side to side so I can get around in his stall, bathing, playing with the water from the hose, putting my jacket on his back, flapping laundry or plastic around him, indulging curiousity…
No age is too soon! Handle from birth!!!!
I was amazed when I first read this blog, that there was a “training” age.
Again, handle from the youngest age you can. I wouldn’t let my dog run wild, poop in the house and all until he was “older.”!!!
If anyone is still reading, this far along in the thread:
My baby is 10 months old (tomorrow). Bought him from a breeder of whom you would all approve: excellent breeding stock, all HYPP N/N, buy-back contract, very few foals per year, tons of research into bloodlines, breeding horses with performance records/show accomplishments. Oh, and my little guy is gorgeous, too.
He was weaned at 4 months, gelded early, shipped to me at 5 1/2 months.
We handle him daily, halter, lead; brush and once-over often. He picks up his feet, stands beautifully for the farrier, and we can handle ears, eyes, mouth, tail, sheath, and take temps, without any fuss.
He spent his first couple of months under the watchful eye of an experienced babysitter gelding who has the mildest temperament and best ground manners I’ve ever seen.
We gradually introduced him to the rest of our geldings, and now they are turned out together as a peaceful herd every day, and brought in to stalls every night.
I have a good friend who is looking forward to training him, when his ground work, and later his undersaddle, time comes along. No one will ever be on his back until he’s past 3, and no one will ever stress his joints or bones as he is growing.
This is my first-ever baby. Can anyone tell me anything from your experience regarding how much of his temperament is inherited, and how much is influenced by his handling and experiences?
I’d appreciate any comments/study results/anecdotal stories you would share! My email is shepherdhill61@hotmail.com if anyone would be willing to pass on their experiences! Thanks!
rosesr4evr said…
oh_for_crying_out_loud said…
I humbly disagree with your assessment of this filly.
Jon Ian, her dam’s sire, won $52k+ on the track, and has sired race winners.
She also goes back to Azure Te, who is notable in his prepotency.
I wouldn’t discount that mare just yet. She’s only a yearling, she could sprout up another full hand before it’s all said and done.
I don’t know if you subscribe to the Journal or not, but recently this individual caught my eye and I was very impressed.
http://www.huntseathorses.com/news.php?article=447
His dam, Perfect World, was a TB ‘done nothing’ race winner of $44k.
I think that filly stands a very VERY decent shot as a hunter jumper. ESPECIALLY for a youth rider, who can get away with riding a smaller horse better than an adult.
November 12, 2007 9:25 AM
I was only remarking that the roan filly was priced higher than the sorrel(yeah she’s a bit roly poly), who IMO is much better quality and has better bloodlines(crosses to Sonny Dee Bar-versatility and Zippo Pine Bar-WP superstar)and has already been shown! The roan is being marketed as a WP prospect in her ad, whereas I thought she would make a better prospect for English disciplines, especially with her height potential and breeding. Her sire is 17.2hh and dam is 15.3. I’m currently looking for WP prospect and we try to stay below 16hh and it seems a lot of taller horses have difficulty moving well for WP. Note: I am NOT saying big/tall horses don’t move well!
Also the (wow 2!!) performing parents was somewhat sarcastic. I was being a little facetious.
November 12, 2007 11:29 PM
I got the sarcasm… it’s all good, we don’t have to agree.
While Zippos Magic Moment is a performer, I’m not sure he’s sired as well as Kelvis IMO. He’s a young sire, and doesn’t have the proven get on the ground that Kelvis does.
The chestnut filly is nice in a lot of ways, and she’s a nice show prospect, ESPECIALLY at that price! She just doesn’t grab my attention as well as the Kelvis filly, though I agree that they should market her more towards english, since that’s where the majority of the Kelvis offspring have excelled.
I am ALL ABOUT SPBs, I think they can be the best doggone deal out there because people view them as byproducts of their breeding program. You can get a very high-caliber horse for a DEAL because it doesn’t have spots.
Call me superficial, but she’s got a big ol’ non-feminine head. While this won’t impair her WP career very much, it MAY impair her marketability.
And again, I repeat, if fillies this nice are going for a PITTANCE of their actual value (the Kelvis filly is going for $50 LESS than his stud fee!)… what in the hell do the horses that aren’t as nice as this go for?
Scary thought.
Oh for crying out loud,
No, I didn’t miss the point. There are too many nice crosses and HYPP-freed bloodlines to refer to that cross as a nice cross, with the one fatal exception. There is no excuse for breeding any animal that is confirmed N/H. If those lines carry N/H, it is not a “nice cross” in any sense. Am I missing the mark? Maybe, and I completely understand where you are going with it. But when you have treated a HYPP attack, or been bad mouthed in a community as a vet because you refused to assist in the AI of a known N/H mare ith an N/H stallion, then you can get back to me and tell me if that can still be considered a “nice cross.” Folks here talk about a little kid being crushed in the ring when his N/H mount collapses in an attack – well try being at the scene of a child’s beloved show mare who collapsed on her when she was being being groomed. The child barely survived. In general, I agree with most of what is said, but that statement really missed the mark.
Lynne said…
Oh for crying out loud,
No, I didn’t miss the point. There are too many nice crosses and HYPP-freed bloodlines to refer to that cross as a nice cross, with the one fatal exception. There is no excuse for breeding any animal that is confirmed N/H. If those lines carry N/H, it is not a “nice cross” in any sense. Am I missing the mark? Maybe, and I completely understand where you are going with it. But when you have treated a HYPP attack, or been bad mouthed in a community as a vet because you refused to assist in the AI of a known N/H mare ith an N/H stallion, then you can get back to me and tell me if that can still be considered a “nice cross.” Folks here talk about a little kid being crushed in the ring when his N/H mount collapses in an attack – well try being at the scene of a child’s beloved show mare who collapsed on her when she was being being groomed. The child barely survived. In general, I agree with most of what is said, but that statement really missed the mark.
November 13, 2007 12:57 PM
Lynne, I took what OFCOL said as how she meant it…she was commenting on the horse AS AN INDIVIDUAL who was halter-bred with a TB parent (regardless of what we know of it’s HYPP status). No one ever condoned breeding N/H or H/H horses at all, or made excuses for it because it was a horse bred “outside the box”. You’re preaching to the choir here…
Totally.
You’re picking a fight that doesn’t need to be picked. I’m on YOUR side here.
Like I said, if it had been Mr. Yella Fella and a TB mare… it’d been the same statement.
I believe all foals need to be handled from birth. I believe in putting a halter on and taking it off frequently when they are sucklings. I do think babies need to be handled frequently and taught little things like lifting their feet and leading for a little while at a time. Babies are babies and don’t need a whole ton of training because they will get brain fried if they aren’t ready, but a little at a time for brief periods of time is okay. It is more familiarization than training.
Manners should be taught early on, too. Leading, tying, trailering, clipping, and bathing manners need to be taught early and reinforced often. I do not think anything younger than 3 should have weight on its back or a piece of metal in its mouth. Mentally I do not think horses are ready for any complex cues until they are 4 or 5. Physically any strain from bearing extra weight such as a rider can hurt development so putting a rider on something younger than 3 or 4 is dangerous in my eyes. What complications can arise from stunting growth and putting too much weight on young bones?
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