First of all, for those of you who just can’t go a day without seeing something snarkworthy, here is some dimwit who needs to sell one hundred and thirty horses NOW because she is pregnant. Of course, they are “foundation bred,” most are colored and nearly all are as long as Britney’s hair extensions! Bet nothing is broke, either. My head hurts.
Now on to today’s topic:
Most of us know about the wildfires in Southern California right now. Evacuation facilities for horses are overflowing already. If you can house some horses (or other pets!) temporarily, or if you have a truck and trailer to move horses for someone who may not have transportation, here are some places you can post so that those in need can find you.
Here is a blog about the fires in the San Diego area with more information.
For those in danger from the fire, from the blog:
Horse stables for 1,700 available in Indio Posted @ 7:17 PM
Evacuees are invited to stable their horses at a horse farm in the Thermal-Indio area.A private citizen, recommended by a California Department of Food & Agriculture veterinarian, has volunteered enough property, staff, food, and water resources to care for up to 1,700 horses. For more information, County residents can call (760) 399-2716.
From Peggy on COTH:
OC Fair Ground is closed to animals at this time.
Industry Hills Expo Center will take 125 large animals (626) 330-0324. They are located off of the 60 Freeway between the 57 and 605 freeways
Orange County Animal Shelter off of The City Drive will take 150 dogs and 75 cats.
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The Chronicle of the Horse message board has a number of threads going with some updates from people actively involved in the rescuing. That is another good place to post if you can offer any kind of assistance.
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Please feel free to post additional information about where to find help/those in need of help to the comments. I am happy to be able to say that I just learned all of the horses I used to care for in Topanga have been moved and are safe tonight, but many others – particularly those owned by people who have only 1 or 2 horses – may not have any transportation or a way to get to safety.
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Horse stables for 1,700 available in Indio 
Ok, so this is completely OT, and I apologize, but I have to ask: Does anyone know anything about the clinician Richard Shrake? He’s the guy who prates on about resistance free training, and he’s coming to do a clinic at my college, which I dutifully signed up to ride in on my personal riding mount so that I can be the guinea pig on the green horse. I tried to google him, and found his website, but there’s really not a whole lot of information I could scrounge up other than stuff on HIM, and how awesome everyone thinks HE is. Does anyone know his PHILOSOPHY, or anything about what he actually DOES? Maybe someone here will know, since both google and Ask.com have failed me for the first time in my life…*is traumatized*
The Oaks Blenheim in San Juan Capistrano is still accepting horses. They’ve got a lot of room and fema or the govt. or something shipped a tractor trailer of shavings and another of alfalfa hay down there. I’ve got some friends working there. They’ve got a whole barn of horses that no one knows who they belong to.
If you have to evacuate your horse or livestock paint your phone number on them. This has already been a big help at the Oaks. Everybody hang in there, we’ll make it through this.
Richard Shrake is one of the older clinician, has been around for ever. One of my friends was a big follower and he is a really nice man. Very laid back and easy going but does talk a great deal.
He is an expert on checking conformation to decide at which discipline a horse will excell.
He is also great on teaching you the best way to show your horses. If you aspire to show at the top level of showmanship he is your man.
He is not one of your new trainers, I put him in the same generation as John Lyons.
echobella, she braced down on the ground by the fence and the foal pushed out, under the fence and just went on its own. It was terrible. My trainer didn’t think he had been on the ground more than 10 minutes, but mom wouldn’t accept him and wouldn’t let him nurse without a chain over her nose. However, she was bred once more (was a great mare, futurity winner as a 4 year old) and he wanted to try again now that his stallion was standing. And she was a bad mother, so she was sold with the rule being she would never breed again.
She wasn’t a good mom.
I am totally against leaving a mare to foal out alone – especially now, but sometime things just happen. She show no signs of “going”. My mare never does either. We thought she was going to go last time two weeks before she did. She dropped, her udder swelled, she relaxed in the behind and then… nothing. Two weeks later, he leaves her at night, checks on her (I was even out there that day and didn’t notice) and nothing. He goes to bed, does a check on her and another mare a few hours later and there was a colt there. He called us and the rest is history. This is the 4th time she has done this and it gets beyond irritating for him and me. LOL
I want to see her foal, but no I never will.
4horses- it just came off rude and really stuck up like stock horses are “below you or something”. It’s different, but not better/worse. I don’t think that is what you were “going for” but that is how it sounded. And I am also not opposed to foaling inside at all. I have to be realistic because in 10 degree weather in a blizzard in March, you will be foaling inside. LOL. There is always a nicely-prepared, clean-as-it-can-be foaling stall. That is always best and I have never met a foal with respitory problems who was foaled inside in a nice, clean stall. Rescue cases, yes.
Everyone has covered just about everything I would’ve said… AND they did it well.
Farmerswife… welcome back! Glad you had a good time!
Monstah… smoky cream… smoky black would be EeaaCrcrTT, for example.
I do wish I could help with all the evacuated horses. It seems so surreal.
Charlie Horse, I took lessons from Richard Shrake whn I was a child. We called him Dick Shrake back then and he has a place in Oregon City Oregon called Horsemanship West. He is really big into getting you in tune with your horse, disengaging your hands from your seat, and really getting into rythm with your animal. He is an old school horseman. He is not a flamboyant clinician, not a round pen Randy, and is not into gimmicks. He was THE guy in the west in the 70′s and still knows his stuff. I have also taken riding lessons from his brother Gregg and Gregg’s Son Steve. I have been around he Shrakes all my life and the one thing I can truly say about them is they are TRUE horsemen. They are very nie guys who know their stuff.
http://dba-oracle.blogspot.com/2006/10/breeding-dangerous-stallions.html
OMG he’s scary what’s with the close up shot of the mares private bits. I mean it’s cropped and everything so it’s really nothing but the nether bits.
I swear he makes semen collecting sound like alaskan crab fishing. CALM down you do not have the world’s most dangerous job.
I can not BELIEVE that man’s Blog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sick, sick, sick.
i saw Richard Shrake about 12 or so years back at a small clinic in Arkansas. to be honest i wasnt personally to impressed and he really seemed to pushing his over-the-pole headsetter device on any horse that wouldnt stay in a low frame. but now that i really look back at it, i think my impression of him may have been a bit effected by the horrible riding here was forced to work with. the riders were just plain terrible, off balnced, looking down, counter bending for every upward and down ward transition and running their horses into the canter/lope with the head twisted to the rail. there was only one good solid rider there on a nice western pleasure built and trained mare.
i think he just gave up on a futile attempt to fix their equitation. i remember thinking that the one english rider must have really thought the ground was interesting because she wouldnt stop stairing at it, lols. ill admit he really came off very knowledgeable in terms of conformation and pretty solid in biomechanics. but he was really teaching the “tricks” of training to get results as apposed to really hitting the issue which was the riders terrible form. but given how completely incompetant and apparently unable to grasp the concept of “self” the riders were i guess he really didnt have another choice. sadly the riders really just wanted their horses to perform and seemed unwilling to really put much effort into THEMSELVES.
for the most part he was very realistic and common sense, talked a lot about really basic things like rythem and balance which im sure was because of the “novice” appearance of the riders. the only thing i really didnt like was his inistance of the use of his “rythem collector” on young horses that wouldnt say in frame (again rider error) and i dont care one bit for his “resistance free bits”. but like i said that was over a decade ago so im sure he isnt running the program now that he was then, and of course who knows how much of his training/teaching approached has changed since then.
im not at all a fan of the NH/Whispering gurus that peddle their “self-help” books and gadgets. but with that being said i guess i would put Richard Shrake in a somewhat differnt catagory, more horseman and less “horse-shit”. when students have asked about “who to see” in regards to horsemanship trainers at their upcoming daytrips of equine festivals like Equine Affair, West Coast Horse Expo ect i will send them to see Richard Shrake before i send them to anyone else.
no matter how many ‘impossible’ surprise pregnancy tales are told, do you really think that scant handful of bizarre incidences makes a dent in comparison to the thousands upon thousands of unwanted children conceived due to stupidity, carelessness, miseducation, laziness and lack of priorities?
i too know a couple who conceived despite using condoms AND the pill. they were too young and poor to offer any kind of acceptable life to a child, so you know what? they got a termination. rather than force someone else to live a life of misery purely because they were too selfish and weak to make a hard, horrible decision, they chose to do the RIGHT thing by that child who would not likely have thanked them for being born.
if you are having sex, conception is a possible side effect. if that conception will decimate your life as you know it to the point of leaving 130 horses potentially homeless and neglected, perhaps you should have a backup plan, a plan b, plan c, emergency post backup disaster relief plan AND a steel chastity belt because you obviously cant make a sane, sensible choice between what you want and what is right??
colorisnteverything said…
“4horses- it just came off rude and really stuck up like stock horses are “below you or something”. It’s different, but not better/worse.”
That threw me for a loop when I first read it….. huh? I OWN stock horses. My 3 foals have all been born outside. Then I realized that you maybe meant 4theHorses…..
On stallions (and that guy’s blog):
That man seemed like a pervert to me, just some of the things he said and the way he said them, I’d hate to run across him in a lonely place. Something about him came across as mega-creepy.
IMO, stallions can be extremely dangerous – and the vast majority of horse owners have NO business owning/handling a stallion. I kept my Arabian a stallion until I moved and it was sell or geld, due to the available “horse-keeping” facilities. However, I had him from the time he was 4 months old and he KNEW that he was not allowed to do ANYTHING without my permission. He would stand like a statue when on the lead, lead quietly, he was perhaps the most perfectly mannered horse I’ve ever had, simply because I wouldn’t tolerate anything less with him. My mares & geldings, it didn’t bother me so much if they pulled on the lead rope trying to get that piece of grass, while I was standing around talking. He learned at less than 6 months old there was NO trotting in place, no circling around, no calling to other horses. In fact, from the time he was little, I’d walk him back and forth behind the main barn (pole barn style, with spaced 2×8 boards all the way up) and practice walking politely and ignoring the other horses. He was quite simply to BEHAVE perfectly.
I went to the stud farm where he had been bred, to see his parents…. the breeders stood several stallions, and brought them (all but 1) out to show me. My horse’s sire had been “in the family” for about 18 years, and had shown extensively with the man’s wife (and he won some regional performance/halter championships, too). He was a perfect gentleman (and still very handsome at 19). Several of the other stallions had been imported fairly recently, and as soon as this guy went in the stalls, they’d rear, strike, etc. at him. OMG! I like to think that once they’d been around for a while, they’d learn not to. However, someone, somewhere, thought that was acceptable “stallion behavior”.
There is also the story of the lady (I don’t know the extent of her knowledge or ability) who had at least 2 stallions for several years. One day, apparently out of the blue (but is it really?), one of the stallions attacked her. According to the story (I think it was in one of the many magazine subscriptions I get), the other stallion broke down his stall to save her. I think more likely his fighting instincts were just raised.
When I go to hold horses for my favorite farrier, I am always a little, um, not nervous – extra cautious, perhaps? when catching/holding stallions. I always remember that the “FIGHT” instinct in stallions is stronger than in other horses. You don’t want a stallion to think you are unjustly reprimanding him.
Re Richard Shrake, he’s one of the few “old-timers” that I never really read, I don’t know why. I always meant to read his books. Remember though, you can always learn from any trainer – even if it’s what NOT TO DO. I learned a lot of that from watching ol’ M. Roberts and PonyBoy. I have little use for their techniques, but I know I learned SOMETHING. I recommend watching AS MANY types of training as you can. You then pick and choose the components that you feel will work best for you in a given situation. I’d jump at the chance to participate in any clinic, remembering that I DO NOT have to do anything I am not comfortable with – I am paying them, they’re not paying me.
JEBUS she has a freaking zebra stallion she plans of standing to the public. talk about shit for brains. those zebra hybrids for the record are a HORRIBLE idea. zebras are NOT a horse with stripes, they are one of the nasties most aggressive animals on the african plain! if you look up the statistics for injuries and attacks to zoo keepers at zoos in north america you will find zebra attack and injure more people in north american than any other animal in Zoos. unlike many other animals zebras dont just defend, they ATTACK and are highly terriorial. it is NOT a horse and should not be CONFUSED with a horse, they have very differnt behavior and reactions that any domesticated horse. when they attack they will grab the “threat” with their teeth, pick it up, shake it and sometimes even crush with their body until it is DEAD. but like most dumb ass breeders her webpage is loaded with “i want one with spots and stripes!”…..and like all BYBs she went out and bought an UNHANDLED, not halter broke zebra STALLION that will only now let her “touch his face” and “eat out of my hand”…..that takes the cake on the worst stallion purchase and indended use EVER.
Ok, obviously you dont have a clue. No zebras are not horses. THey are not mean are attack either. I walk into a barn that has several on a regular bases. None attack, you can go right out there with them.
THey even used to be a female that was halter broke, handleable, and she could roam the place with out takeing off.
Studs you DO NOT want halter broke or handled, especially if they are to be breeding animals. If you handle them or bottle raise them, you take a greater chance of them thinking you are “one of there girls” and that is when the problems start.
Like any animal you can have mean ones, but most are not. You respect them, they respect you. All of them in the barn you can pet when they come to the barn. The female that was bottle fed will come up to you anywhere you are. The others when in the feild will keep there distance from you.
HOwever, I do hope you doesnt plane to stand him to horses or donkeys. THey must be raised with them to even have a chance at wanting to breed them. Even then most of the time they wont.
Zebras, probably more like donkeys than horses. I do not like working with donkeys or mules. This may sound wacky, but I have a feel for horses – I have no problem generally knowing what they are thinking, about to do, etc. I can’t get any sort of connection with donkeys or mules. None, zip. And, I’ve seen a donkey attack a man. Exactly the way as described for a zebra. Luckily for the man, the donkey was tied up with about 18″ of slack in the lead – so the donkey couldn’t drag him away and stomp him. He did hold him by the upper arm, drag him around & back around the tree he was tied to, trying to stomp him – all in all this donkey (all 10 hands of him) held on to the 180lb man for about 10 seconds, until his arm finally slipped out of the donkey’s mouth (the donkey kept part of the shirt and heavy sweatshirt).
On the freaky stallion dude, I can’t stand it, when people ascribe human emotions to their animals.
how is it even legal to own a zebra? where the hell did she get it?
damn wacky americans! *LMAO* living in a country with strict quarantine laws based on preservation of native biodiversity, owning something that foreign and exotic as a pet just blows my mind. like having a tiger instead of a tabbycat.
bella, barnibus said that Zebras are NOT horses. And Zebras ARE very aggressive and unpredictable. They cannot ever be totally domesticated and can be extremely dangerous. Ignorant BYB + Zebra = disaster.
All that kept running through my mind when I read the stallion guy’s blog was “he thinks he’s a legend in his own mind”. Well, surprise surprise, he has a blog on that very topic! If you read thru his whole blog, he’s pretty dramatic and insufferable sounding. Lord knows what he’s projecting through his writing about his breeding experiences, but it is weird. But it makes good copy (at least in his opinion!)
Also, you have to wonder exactly how much work he’s getting done there at Oracle?
As for Bedonna, in a better horse market, her practices wouldn’t be so awful. She appears to take decent care of them and I didn’t see any trampolines, chain link fence, wormy underfed horses, etc. etc. Still not great horses except for a stud or two, but at one point in time I’m sure there were buyers for her horses. With the economy in the dumper right now and the horse market even worse, she is stuck. Just waaaaaaaay too many horses. She reminds me of people who don’t realize what’s been happening in a market (like people who don’t realize that their house is now worth 30% less than it used to be) and then are caught flat footed when reality smacks them in the face. And I’m sure she’s got another flock coming in the spring, so even more trouble. I hope she’s got a Plan B.
FHOTD said- “I couldn’t agree with that more. Again, breeding horses with bad dispositions creates more horses with bad dispositions. I’m convinced the #1 cause of nasty, ill tempered horses is people breeding their nasty, ill tempered mares in the mistaken belief this will render them rideable.”
One of my favorite quotes from Hilda Gurney is “If you can’t ride the mare for God’s sakes don’t breed her!”
There seems to be a rash of “White Trash Warmbloods” in my area. This has resulted from the idea that if you can’t ride the mare at least you can breed her.
As for Bedonna’s stallions, I did like the Doc’s Hickory stud, but his back was a bit too long for my taste. He’d make a great gelding along with the grey stud.
A note to “4thehorses” – I must agree with “colorisnteverything” in that your post was, at a minimum, insensitive and came off as conceited as well. Everyone does things differently and not everyone will agree on how things should be done with horses, but no breed or discipline is superior to another. Please just take your time when posting your comments so as not to offend anyone, even if it wasn’t done on purpose.
I totally agree about NOT breeding ill-tempered horses, but I would add to that naturally ill-tempered. I would consider breeding a horse who has a poor temperament due to prior mishandling. The problem with breeding a “man-made” ill-tempered mare is you run the risk of not being able to handle the foal or the foal picking up on mannerisms from the mare.
A lady I knew had a mare with tons of man-made issues. She was an everyday slightly psycho, horrible tempered horse. However, both of her foals grew up to be very nice, sane, well-mannered horses. She allowed the lady to handle her foals, and for some reason they did not pick up her threatening faces and defensive issues. Many foals will learn bad behavior from their dams.
wow…..the guy with the stallion blog sounds like he (and his wife!) are having a little TOO much fun in the breeding barn. creep-tacular.
Regarding BeDonna…I have to agree with Dontyouridenofuglyhorse who said…
“It does not look like a dispersal sale due to pregnancy to me, my guess is that the horse market is soft and horses are not selling for any where near what she is asking.”
Now my next question would be…how many is she expecting for ’08? Hopefully not another 60…
She really sounds like a wealthier version of one of my neighbors. Around a dozen stock horse brood mares, some nice, some not so nice, some plain, some color…who have this years’ foals on the side (or are still waiting to foal since she just leaves them with the stallion for ‘natural’ breeding…) Did I mention last year’s foals are still unsold? She actually told my other neighbor that “Nature won’t let a mare conceive when it would mean foaling in too cold weather. REALLY. I couldn’t make this stuff up.
Not a bale of hay bought yet in Indiana in late October in a drought year. (And it IS available, not terribly unreasonable, just 2 miles away at $50 for a 5′ round bale. Thing is, you have to get in the truck and drive down there and give him $50…they don’t just magically roll into your barn lot.
Since when is this blog about being polite? Look, I was just stating a fact, a firsthand fact. Me thinks the QH folks are a little sensitive. Someone commenting on Bedonna’s foaling method, and all I said was that every QH breeder that I have known did the same thing. Lighten up.
cnsdubie said…
Now my next question would be…how many is she expecting for ’08? Hopefully not another 60…
Of course not 60… by my count it’s at least 75!
http://www.bedonna.com/2007BreedingsChart.htm
I agree, since when do we lecture on being polite on this blog? I had to recheck where I was. Thought I got lost and wandered into a horse forum. *eye roll*
Perhaps it’s that the QHs are more capable of foaling outdoors. They are simply a lot easier to care for than other breeds (say, TBs). I have owned both and the QHs were much more hardy than TBs. All that refinement has bred a less-than-hardy animal. Unfortunately, a lot of QH breeders are trying to change the QH from a hardy, sturdy, using horse right into a TB. Take a gander at any AQHA show with HUS. If you see any who actually resemble QHs, they won’t place.
Before you mustang (and other type) owners blast me. I realize I should have said QHs are “a lot easier to care for than MANY other breeds”
Devil’s_Advocate said…
“Perhaps it’s that the QHs are more capable of foaling outdoors.”
To this I must reply “Oh bullshit” and please accept this in the kindest, most polite tone imaginable.
This is 2007 and it’s purely stupid for PEOPLE to deliberately breed or negligently allow to be bred any horse, regardless of breed or hardiness, to produce a foal that will have to be outside and thus will be vulnerable to both the elements and predators in harsh weather before it has a chance to develop the strength it will need to survive.
Logistically how do you stall 60-75 (or more) mares to foal! She could have 10-20 mares all looking like they could go at once. I had a hard enough time doing mare stare on 1 mare, much less any more. Fact is when a person is breeding that many horses to them a few losses is really no big deal to them, they have plenty more to ‘make up’ for it (Just a statement on some’s philosophy, not mine at all!)
It does not make one penn’orth of difference where you foal a mare- it could be in the middle of a field of half way up the central aisle of a cathedral- it is the amount of CARE the animal gets, not where it actually is, that is important.
I am happy to foal an Arab mare out where ever she happens to be- in the field (as one will ONLY do) or in a stall, it is all the same to me.
All I know is, I am (nearly)always there, and the mare is never in the middle of a muddy field with all the other mares around her- there may be another pregnant and due mare, of good temperament, in with her, that is all.
I have sat with mares who have decided not to cooperate , for up to six weeks, but I was there to help when the foal came.
Unless I had the facilities to deal with the foals, I would not breed.
If your mares foal in the middle of a muddy field with a mare that is likely to kick the foal, then you do not have the facilities to breed, simple as that.
This woman is yet another freak trying to unload her second rate animals at first rate price and using her pregnancy as an excuse.
Well, look at the large TB farms where many mares can go in one night. It’s all about science. They are taking temps and drawing blood and are really very good at determining when a mare is going to go. Larger farms will have foaling barns where the mares have double stalls and many foaling attendants. These farms are about not loosing ANY foals. I am pretty certain that at the QH halter and race breeding farms the mares foal indoors as well.
4thehorses said…
Well, look at the large TB farms where many mares can go in one night. It’s all about science. They are taking temps and drawing blood and are really very good at determining when a mare is going to go. Larger farms will have foaling barns where the mares have double stalls and many foaling attendants. These farms are about not loosing ANY foals. I am pretty certain that at the QH halter and race breeding farms the mares foal indoors as well.
Very true, Large rsponsible farms do havethe capibilites, and do provide very good care. I misspoke and should have put it in refrence to BYB’s as this lady clearly dosn’t have the resources to do any of that type of stuff, esp with her foals only selling for a couple hundred each. She probably wakes up in the morning and goes “yay, we had 6 foals last night, and only one was still born, not bad!” *disgusting…
devil’s advocate said, “Unfortunately, a lot of QH breeders are trying to change the QH from a hardy, sturdy, using horse right into a TB.”
Aside from the QH HUS breeders, where else do you see this happening within the QH breed?
Just being the devil’s advocate here myself, but do you really consider Bedonna a BYB? I’m not sure what category I’d put her in, but her web site does show some degree of knowledge.
Full disclosure: I live in Ohio, don’t know the woman at all, and don’t claim much knowledge about running a breeding operation, having only had geldings.
Again, I think she’s nuts for breeding so many horses in this market but…she doesn’t appear to have many foals left from prior years so somebody was buying them. So is she really a BYB??
Morgan_Horse_Queen said…
Just being the devil’s advocate here myself, but do you really consider Bedonna a BYB? I’m not sure what category I’d put her in, but her web site does show some degree of knowledge.
Full disclosure: I live in Ohio, don’t know the woman at all, and don’t claim much knowledge about running a breeding operation, having only had geldings.
Again, I think she’s nuts for breeding so many horses in this market but…she doesn’t appear to have many foals left from prior years so somebody was buying them. So is she really a BYB??
Hmm, good point… Due to sheer size and some knowledge, I guess not, but due to the fact that she is breeding everything she possibly can, with no apparent intent to try and improve the breed in any way I’d say yes. She claims to do some showing, but I see no evidence as to anything her horses have won anywhere, even the stallions, all she has going for them is they are colored and may have decent bloodlines, but I don’t think they are good (esp not stallion quality) representatives of those bloodline. She is trying to sell the bloodlines not breed quality horses. So yes, BYB isn’t nessecarily the best term, but I believe some of the same concepts defining them do apply to her.
Robin said…
Morgan_Horse_Queen said…
…she doesn’t appear to have many foals left from prior years so somebody was buying them. So is she really a BYB??
_____________________________
And how do we know she sold them all? Perhaps she makes a run to the auction now and then? Or a kill buyer loads up at her farm? I find it hard to believe she could sell every single horse born there. She has a few nice horses and babies, but alot of crap too. Yes, this is another irresponsible BYB operation IMO.
found another claim on her website that she is selling her brood mares because of drought.
http://www.bedonna.com/BloodlineSearchChart.htm
I though it was because she was pregnant…
Maybe she doesn’t qualify as a BYB, but she sure qualifies as a Horse Mill, by the sheer number of horses she churns out.
She’s selling because she got herself in way too deep, can’t sell them, and is starting to feel the crunch of feeding all those horses. Pregnancy, drought, and any other BS excuse is just that, BS. And she’s gone ahead and bred a whole crop for 2008??? What an irresponsible asswipe.
Horsepoor –
Silly me. I thought about that after I posted it. It doesn’t seem to be too hard to get your mistakes to disappear.
Write it off to a flashback to how I thought *before* I learned all this kind of stuff went on!!
Kuvacz –
Horse mill? – that seems more like it.
Things About Bedonna’s Performance Horses that piss me off/confuse me/make me sad:
1.) Nobody is tested for HERDA, and many are linebred Poco Bueno.
2.) Mr. Poco Jessie Tivio is the stallion she’s decided not to sell (reference sire only?)… found these moronic comments on his page:
***Due to high demand: Multiple Mare discounts are Not given with this stallion.
I also do not give discounted fees to this stud.
However, if you choose to breed to this stallion, and other stallions,
I will discount the stud fees on the other stallions.
***His 2008 stud fee is $600 for common colored mares, which includes the Booking/Chute Fee.
Cream gene mares, Palominos, Buckskins, & Double-Dilutes are Private Treaty.
3.) Nothing on the place is gelded. You have 4 types of horses: Mares, Fillies, Stallions and Stud colts. No geldings. And from the looks of them, MOST if not ALL of the horses in the latter 2 categories NEED to be geldings.
Scary, but this is exactly the type of folks that need to SCALE BACK and realize that they are breeding TOO MANY CULLS and not enough DECENT STOCK.
“Robin said…
Morgan_Horse_Queen said…
…she doesn’t appear to have many foals left from prior years so somebody was buying them. So is she really a BYB??
_____________________________
And how do we know she sold them all? Perhaps she makes a run to the auction now and then? Or a kill buyer loads up at her farm? I find it hard to believe she could sell every single horse born there. She has a few nice horses and babies, but alot of crap too. Yes, this is another irresponsible BYB operation IMO.”
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If you look at her site, she has a BUNCH of photos of weanlings by her stallions out of her mares, that have auction tags on their tails. I would bet that these are foals she brought back from a sale that did not command a high enough price at the sale and she is trying to sell privately. That pretty much proves to me that her main marketing plan is to sell at auction. That is one of the reasons I do not think her impending birth is the real motivation on downsizing the herd. I think the sizzle is off the medium to low quality “performance” bred QH. Very good quality prospects are still selling well. Mediocre is not.
I have a question for you all…. Why do you believe that the mark of a good breeder is that all of their foals are sold by fall? Many performance horse folks and WP folks, and trail riding folks do not buy weanlings. They purchase long yearlings and two yr olds ready to start, or already broke horses. Some classes and types of QH horses just do not commonly sell as weanlings. So why would you use that as a yard stick for a quality breeding operation? I personally am of the mind that a breeder that cannot sell a horse during it’s two yr old year at a good price is doing something REALLY wrong. I breed Qh and I usually sell at least 1/2 to 3/4 of my foals as weanlings, always privately, and everything I want to sell is gone by two at a good price, again sold privately, save a show horse I have held back or a filly I thought might mature into something I would want to keep or other extenuating circumstance.
I am just curious as to why the concensus seems to be that a “GOOD BREEDER” sells all foals off the mare.
Ok, to clarify, I find it hard to believe she could sell all her horses no matter what age they are, weanlings, yearlings, 2 y/o’s, whatever. Most likely the auction/kill buyer is her bread and butter at this point.
devil’s advocate said, “Unfortunately, a lot of QH breeders are trying to change the QH from a hardy, sturdy, using horse right into a TB.”
I think that is as silly an argument as trying to say that the cutting folks are ruining the breed by breeding 13.2 hand 750# horses that are only good for jumping back and forth in front of a cow. They are too small and frail to do much of anything else and too hot to be childrens mounts.
HorsePoor said…
Ok, to clarify, I find it hard to believe she could sell all her horses no matter what age they are, weanlings, yearlings, 2 y/o’s, whatever. Most likely the auction/kill buyer is her bread and butter at this point.
I have to agree with you on this one. By next summer Bedonna is going to have 200 + horses to sell if all her mares foal successfully. That would mean she would have to sell nearly a horse a DAY to get them all sold privately. At the rate she is producing horses the auction seems the only likely avenue to liquidate the massive herd.
Just wanted to pass on good wishes to all in the path of the fire, we’re getting it on the news here in the UK.
Sadly nothing we can do to help but we are thinking of you all.
Best of luck to you all XX
Yeah, the multiple reasons for selling a horse that she has listed (not eligible for the types of shows we’re planning on attending, DROUGHT, pregnancy) only serve to show that she’s simply gotten herself in too deep by breeding everything on the ranch with a wang and a uterus.
Out of her entire *sizeable* website selection, I found only a scant handful of horses that I would even remotely consider as breeding prospects.
The rest should have had CAREERS, instead of just being turned out to make babies!!! Shame on her for simply PROPAGATING horses.
And shame on her for breeding all her mares back this year to her THIRTEEN STALLIONS… GOOD GOD, SHE’S EVEN GOT A ZEBRA!
What a freaking twit.
I work at Oracle as a software developer – luckily, this Burleson idiot is not actually an Oracle employee.
http://www.dba-oracle.com/
Dontyouridenofuglyhorse said…
I have a question for you all…. Why do you believe that the mark of a good breeder is that all of their foals are sold by fall? Many performance horse folks and WP folks, and trail riding folks do not buy weanlings. They purchase long yearlings and two yr olds ready to start, or already broke horses. Some classes and types of QH horses just do not commonly sell as weanlings. So why would you use that as a yard stick for a quality breeding operation? I personally am of the mind that a breeder that cannot sell a horse during it’s two yr old year at a good price is doing something REALLY wrong. I breed Qh and I usually sell at least 1/2 to 3/4 of my foals as weanlings, always privately, and everything I want to sell is gone by two at a good price, again sold privately, save a show horse I have held back or a filly I thought might mature into something I would want to keep or other extenuating circumstance.
I am just curious as to why the concensus seems to be that a “GOOD BREEDER” sells all foals off the mare.
I ABSOLUTELY AGREE!
Weanlings/sucklings have the ‘cuteness’ factor. Any moron can sell a cute weanling for 1,000 to another moron… it’s easy.
To me, the true test of a QUALITY breeding program is to:
A.) See what the weanlings are doing as 5 year olds. Are they broke? Are they competing, or do they have a job? And are they SOUND? Or does Billy Bob Joe throw them a flake once in a while and swear that ‘next year I’ll break ol’baldy to ride, but until then, I’ll just breed her to make some of my money back’?
B.)See what the horses sell for at their most awkward and unappealing age – yearlings to long yearlings. It’s a whole YEAR before you can really ride them, they’ve lost most of their cute suckling/weanling appeal. If they command a decent price at that age, then you’re probably doing something right. If you keep DROPPING your price and they still don’t sell… you REALLY need to revaluate your breeding plan.
I see people drop their prices like a dress on prom night as the horse approaches it’s yearling year. Why? They know in their heart of hearts that their horse is inferior, they don’t want it’s fugly ass around when folks start showing up next spring to look at the new foals and the stallions as prospective breeding mates for their mares, and they are just PLAIN GREEDY.
If a horse doesn’t sell at a decent price to a good home as a suckling/weanling, DON’T DROP THE FREAKIN PRICE ON IT AS A YEARLING! Keep it around, break it under saddle as a two year old and try again at that time… don’t risk the horse that YOU are responsible for creating ending up in slaughter because you just HAD to sell it for $500 to whoever coughed up the dough… it’s not right, and it’s not fair to the animal.
Devil’s_Advocate said…
Unfortunately, a lot of QH breeders are trying to change the QH from a hardy, sturdy, using horse right into a TB. Take a gander at any AQHA show with HUS. If you see any who actually resemble QHs, they won’t place.
this is an ignorant statement for several reasons.
first off, the quarter horse’s FOUNDATION is thoroughbred blood.
second off, WHY would you try to use a bulky foundation-type horse in HUS anyway?
I think breeding to compete in a specific discipline is the LEAST of our worries… it’s people overbreeding JUNK horses with NO discipline to competitively compete in that is creating the surplus of stock horses we are seeing.
And since I’m one of those people who believes in crossing thoroughbred blood into the quarter horse, I’ll go ahead and say that the appendix and high-percentage thoroughbred mares have just as easy a time foaling and have been just as easy to care for as their foundation counterparts. While they CAN require more and higher quality caloric intake to maintain a decent weight… it is sheer ignorance to say that they are less hardy.
Dontyouridenofuglyhorse said…
devil’s advocate said, “Unfortunately, a lot of QH breeders are trying to change the QH from a hardy, sturdy, using horse right into a TB.”
I think that is as silly an argument as trying to say that the cutting folks are ruining the breed by breeding 13.2 hand 750# horses that are only good for jumping back and forth in front of a cow. They are too small and frail to do much of anything else and too hot to be childrens mounts.
That’s a good point. But devil’s advocate needs to be aware of the fact that the “hardy, sturdy, using QH” originated from speed blood (TBs). Without the TB, there would be no QH (as we know them today). They would all look like mustangs. Oh wait, they DO look like mustangs when they eliminate all traces of speed blood from their modern pedigrees…
I went back to look for the auction tags and can’t see them. Did she retouch the pix to make the tags disappear?
The one with 130(!!) horses for sale also has a zebra stallion.
…Yeah.
I know of a Zonkey that was bred by a woman who got a Zebra filly. The stallion was cute while he was young and handled but with a little time away from humans went feral real fast. Tried to help catch him AFTER the vet darted him and we never could catch him. We were just trying to separate him from his mom but after the rodeo the owner said she may as well put him down cause he was “useless” duh… you BRED for him. (don’t think she did, but she did put more time into him)
Someone else bred their sweet fugly mare to a mean tempered fugly stud. Even tho Little Miss Bitch was imprinted at birth (maybe it took TOO well, snark, snark..)she turned out to be an ill tempered misslehead to human or horse. AND the owner wanted ANOTHER mean fugly but MissBitch kicked the shit out of the unpapered fugly stud…There is a GOD.
Prayers to SoCal, wish I could get away from work.
And the human breeder should get more help, in more ways than one.
Ok, so… Did you all notice the comment on Bedonna’s site that states she has customers in Canada and Mexico now? Is she selling direct to the slaughter houses? I bet their feedback would read ‘we appreciate the opportunity to purchase these large lots of prime grass fat 2 and 3 year old’s.’
Personally, one of the signs of a good breeder is one who starts his/her young horses in a good direction for that particular horse and then sells at 3 or 4 years. The owner of the TB farm I managed last drove me nuts because all her horses went to the track, period. She had some lovely hunter types who could have brought big bucks as children’s hunters, and some who could have made wonderful event horses.
A couple of things: ditto on that guys blog. I hope he isn’t around any young girls, I think he’s a pervert. He even looks creep in his picture. I couldn’t figure out how to email him – - if I could figure that out, I definitely WOULD email him, the freaking creep.
As for mares foaling and needing to be watched while they foal, isn’t it funny how that one mare always manages to have her foal the minute ya’ll leave for 20 minutes? Guess it never occurred to you that she maybe DIDN’T WANT AN AUDIENCE. Talk about asshats.
On a lighter note – did anybody see the horse in the Tour De France?
http://www.stupidvideos.com/video/animals/Horse_in_the_Tour_de_France/?m=new
Note, he won!!!
lifelike said…
no matter how many ‘impossible’ surprise pregnancy tales are told, do you really think that scant handful of bizarre incidences makes a dent in comparison to the thousands upon thousands of unwanted children conceived due to stupidity, carelessness, miseducation, laziness and lack of priorities?
i too know a couple who conceived despite using condoms AND the pill. they were too young and poor to offer any kind of acceptable life to a child, so you know what? they got a termination. rather than force someone else to live a life of misery purely because they were too selfish and weak to make a hard, horrible decision, they chose to do the RIGHT thing by that child who would not likely have thanked them for being born.
if you are having sex, conception is a possible side effect. if that conception will decimate your life as you know it to the point of leaving 130 horses potentially homeless and neglected, perhaps you should have a backup plan, a plan b, plan c, emergency post backup disaster relief plan AND a steel chastity belt because you obviously cant make a sane, sensible choice between what you want and what is right??
Oh, totally. No one’s debating that this woman is a total idiot. What we were debating is that it is POSSIBLE for a person of decent – indeed, even spectacular intelligence to conceive accidently. And also that it CAN be as much as 5/6 months before such a pregnancy is noted. Rare, yes, but not rare enough that a few people don’t have personal stories of it.
And yup, the vast, vast majority of unwanted pregnancies are brought about by sheer ignorance and stupidity. That’s a fact, can’t deny it.
And yup, it’s more responsible in a lot of cases to get a termination. But what if it’s illegal where you are? What if it’s illegal because you didn’t find out until too late? This was my friend’s situation. She has told me, in as many words, that if she had found out in the earlier stages of pregnancy, she would have got an abortion, end of. Even though her and her partner are responsible, capable money earners of (just!) an age to support themselves, and with good career prospects.
Of course, outside all this is the fact that why oh WHY is pregnancy a reason to sell 130 horses. How does one even GET 130 horses. The whole thing is ridiculous.
L.L. said…
I couldn’t figure out how to email him – - if I could figure that out, I definitely WOULD email him, the freaking creep.
He links to their website on the blog http://www.burleson-arabians.com/ the e-mail is on there.
Janet@Burleson.cc
You’re not going to believe this, but if you dig around in her site, you will find the revelation that she took fertility treatments. I think that’s where the bill medical bills came from. And she’s 39. And she’s divorced.
Really, people shouldn’t put so much out there! It just makes ‘em more of a target!
And I really need to get back to work!
AH HA!!! The jackass with the “Dangerous Studs” has a website also. I don’t normally just resort to calling someone a jackass outright but, honestly, this guy is one.
http://www.burleson-arabians.com/
I found on another site where they are talking about his wife “Janet Burleson is also one of the world’s pioneering horse trainers” BS! Not if they are allowing their stallions to act like that!
Ahhh gawd… almost ewwww…. well not just almost, but yes, ewwww.
http://www.burleson-arabians.com/horse_milk.htm
I know, I’m supposed to be working, but here goes one more:
Those Burlesons and their Arabs? Truly, their quality is only a bit better than Bedonna and her stock horses. Fixated with bloodlines, as Arab people are wont to be, but the horses are just decent. The only advantage the Burlesons have is that they don’t have 130 gazillion of them. But big time quality breeders? No.
hackney_wonder said…
Ahhh gawd… almost ewwww…. well not just almost, but yes, ewwww.
http://www.burleson-arabians.com/horse_milk.htm
Ok that PROVES it, this guy is completely WACKED!!!! A certifiable nut job for sure.
Burleson’s also the one behind the weird “Seeing eye horses” which the people who truly are training assistance dogs for the blind get really annoyed at.
I heard Burleson and his wife Janet interviewed many years ago on TV when they first came up with the “let’s repackage miniature ponies as great big dogs” ploy. He seems to be just as obnoxious in person as he is in print.
That guy is a damn pervert! What a weirdo.
cnsdubie said…
“Devil’s_Advocate said… Perhaps it’s that the QHs are more capable of foaling outdoors. ~~ CNSDUBIE: To this I must reply “Oh bullshit” and please accept this in the kindest, most polite tone imaginable.”
Actually that was tongue in cheek for the person who made the comment about QH’s foaling outside.
Dontyouridenofuglyhorse said…
“devil’s advocate said, “Unfortunately, a lot of QH breeders are trying to change the QH from a hardy, sturdy, using horse right into a TB. ~~ DYRNFH: I think that is as silly an argument as trying to say that the cutting folks are ruining the breed by breeding 13.2 hand 750# horses that are only good for jumping back and forth in front of a cow.”
I said a lot of breeders are. Not most, not all. And a lot are.
oh_for_crying_out_loud said…
“Devil’s_Advocate said…
Unfortunately, a lot of QH breeders are trying to change the QH from a hardy, sturdy, using horse right into a TB. Take a gander at any AQHA show with HUS. If you see any who actually resemble QHs, they won’t place. ~~ OFCOL: this is an ignorant statement for several reasons. * first off, the quarter horse’s FOUNDATION is thoroughbred blood. * second off, WHY would you try to use a bulky foundation-type horse in HUS anyway?”
Yep, the QH foundation is PART TB blood. However, they were bred AWAY from the TB to get a DIFFERENT TYPE OF HORSE. When I go to an AQHA show and see a bunch of 16+ hand horses, carrying their heads like TBs and looking for all the world like TBs, I wonder – Why the hell aren’t these people just buying TBs, and where the hell are the QHs? Also, yes, you are exactly right. WHY would you try to use a bulky foundation-type horse in HUS. You wouldn’t. They were not bred to be HUS (TB-types). Sure, ride your QH huntseat, ride a TB in HUS for judges who are placing the TB type horses. And, it may be ignorant, but I would say that requiring more caloric intake to maintain condition COULD BE considered less hardy.
forthefutureofthebreed said…
“devil’s advocate needs to be aware of the fact that the “hardy, sturdy, using QH” originated from speed blood (TBs). Without the TB, there would be no QH (as we know them today). They would all look like mustangs. Oh wait, they DO look like mustangs when they eliminate all traces of speed blood from their modern pedigrees…”
I’m aware of the TB influence, but there are a LOT of racing QHs who do NOT look like TBs. They look like QHs.
And that type of thinking “they originated from TBs, so it’s okay to breed them to look like TBs again” is kind of like saying “let’s breed the TBs to look more like Arabians, since the foundation TB sires were Arabians.” QH were bred to be DIFFERENT than TBs, and while I will definitely admit that the influx of some TB blood is not bad, there are definitely some Appendix bred QHs out there who are more than 3/4 TB. That’s kind of like saying “My Friesan is 3/4 Percheron, but it’s a Friesian because it’s got 1/4 Friesian blood and I registered it with Bubba’s Friesian Association.”
L.L. said… “As for mares foaling and needing to be watched while they foal, isn’t it funny how that one mare always manages to have her foal the minute ya’ll leave for 20 minutes? Guess it never occurred to you that she maybe DIDN’T WANT AN AUDIENCE. Talk about asshats.”
L.L., SURELY you don’t think that horses have foaled unattended for the last gazillion years. (sarcasm intended, I actually think you are dead-on)
let me rephrase this “since the foundation TB sires were Arabians” to “since 3 foundation sires of the TB breed were Arabians. Namely the Byerly Turk, the Darley Arabian and the Godolphin Arabian.”
Devil’s_Advocate said…
let me rephrase this “since the foundation TB sires were Arabians” to “since 3 foundation sires of the TB breed were Arabians. Namely the Byerly Turk, the Darley Arabian and the Godolphin Arabian.”
Yeah except the Byerly Turk was a TURK not an Arabian…and there is much evidence to prove that the Goldolphin Arabian was a Turk too…
from the TB Heritage website:
the Byerley Turk was a unmarked, dark brown horse with a decidedly Arabian appearance, despite his title as a “Turk”. He was very prepotent, and many of his offspring are noted to have been brown or black like himself.
from Wikipedia:
There is debate over the breed of the Byerly Turk. While this stallion is commonly thought to be an Arabian horse, there are other theories who claim the horse was a Turkoman horse or an Akhal-Teke.
bloodlines.net:
Described as a fiery Arabian stallion, a horse of elegance, courage and speed, he was brought to England in 1688. He was the first of three Oriental stallions to arrive who between them would become the progenitors of every living thoroughbred.
Some debate over his lineage, but no debate over his Arabian characteristics, and being an Eastern horse would likely have a high concentration of Arabian blood.
haha, save you any more arguing over the bloodlines of those 3 stallions, I’ll say let’s breed the modern-day TB to look like 1/3 Turk, 2/3 Arabian. Or 1/3 Arabian, 2/3 Turk.
My point was, with QHs, what is the point of breeding them back into TBs when that is a breed that the QH was bred to be different FROM?
I know, I know. Not all breeders are doing that.
devil’s advocate – Your argument is not without validity (in part), but you are looking at it from the viewpoint of disliking TBs in the QH bloodlines, all without any merit (and oftentimes those opinions are only fed by what you hear others say).
First of all, the old QH breeders knew that a QH was not a QH if it couldn’t run. It has been proven time and again that the TB blood (speed blood) IMPROVES athletic performance ability in the QH. They don’t HAVE to look like TBs. Just because some people breed their QHs to look like TBs (HUS breeders), doesn’t mean the QH as a breed doesn’t need TB blood. This doesn’t only apply to racehorses. It also applies to COWHORSES, whether you agree with it or not.
In fact, the QH, as a breed, REQUIRES TB blood to survive as it was intended. If you were to research the most influential sires in the breed since AQHA began, you will find that they are heavy in TB blood, up close. The horses who achieved the title of Supreme Champion were of mostly TB blood.
The physical problems today with many QHs is due to a LACK of TB blood in the immediate pedigrees. But if one isn’t familiar with the different types of TBs available, they wouldn’t see that. And those who won’t admit there are “issues” with the horses they’re breeding today won’t see it either. The people who dislike TB blood in the QH gene pool believe that ALL TBs are 17h, slab-sided hotheads that are only good for racing or jumping. They only need to open up their eyes (and their minds) to the historical facts, and learn how to judge a horse that is a quality individual, rather than breed QHs by bloodlines only, and eliminating the most important blood from the breed. I get quite upset about all this. It is sad that the older horsemen, who were real horsemen, are dying off, only to be replaced by people who don’t have a clue about any of this. Most do not even care enough to take the time to research the details about the horses behind the ones they breed today.
If you’re REALLY interested in this in more detail, you are welcome to visit my blog. The letter I wrote to the QH Journal regarding this subject is posted there as well.
I don’t want to get the TB people up in arms against what I said about breeding TBs back to look like the Arabian/Turk horses. I just used them as an example, because it’s a breed that I know about. I could have used warmbloods, or minis, or Morgans, or, or, or, or, and on and on and on.
devil’s advocate said, “My point was, with QHs, what is the point of breeding them back into TBs when that is a breed that the QH was bred to be different FROM?”
The only ones breeding QHs AWAY from TB blood are the ones who don’t care about the future integrity of the QH as a breed.
The only ones breeding AWAY from TBs are those who breed foundation QHs. And they’re really bringing top dollar today, aren’t they? LOL. Those breeders can’t GIVE their foals away. No one breeding them has created ANYTHING worth breeding on and contributing to the QH as a breed, in a positive way.
devil’s advocate said, “And that type of thinking “they originated from TBs, so it’s okay to breed them to look like TBs again” is kind of like saying “let’s breed the TBs to look more like Arabians, since the foundation TB sires were Arabians.”
Another really uninformed remark…no one ever said that QHs need to be bred to look like TBs. No one. You really need to go study some of the old QH material that is out there, and read what the old time breeders believed. That will take a few years. And you need to study QH bloodlines for the next 40 years, then come back and write the same thing…
forthefutureofthebreed
Did you not read what I wrote? I said I am NOT against some influx of TB blood. I’m not suggesting that they close the stud book to TBs. I’m saying there are 1) some QHs out there who are more TB than QH and LOOK more TB than QH, and 2) there are people out there who are breeding the QH to LOOK like TBs.
I’m more knowledgeable than you think. Perhaps not as focused on the same particulars as you are, but not at all stupid.
I don’t dislike TBs. I known, ridden and had some I really like. I’ve bred Appendix bred QHs. But they were (looked) QH, not TBs with yellow AQHA papers.
And, teensy-weensy, thin-walled hooves are a gift from TBs. I would bet the majority of farriers would say that by far TBs have the worst feet as a breed.
If a breeder is going to breed in TB blood, I think that a responsible QH breeder needs to look for horses who will improve the breed in regard to the breed standard, not breed to turn them into TBs.
forthefutureofthebreed said “Another really uninformed remark…no one ever said that QHs need to be bred to look like TBs. No one. You really need to go study some of the old QH material that is out there, and read what the old time breeders believed. That will take a few years. And you need to study QH bloodlines for the next 40 years, then come back and write the same thing…”
Did I SAY that anyone said that? Nope. Did I say that SOME people are breeding them to look like TBs? Yep. If that offends you, then sorry. Some people are. Like I said, I’ve been to AQHA shows (HUS) where I thought I’d gotten lost and was at an open Hunter/Jumper show surrounded by TBs.
I don’t need to read pedigree books, or spend 40 years studying QH bloodlines to make those statements.
Why are you so defensive about it anyway? Who cares? It’s MY opinion on SOME QHs – I’m not out there breeding tons of little bulldogs, with crooked legs and jugheads. There is a compromise both to preserve the breed standard, and to keep the breed healthy and strong. Use TB blood. Just make it blood that fits in with the breed standard a little bit better than some 17+ HUS-type TB horse.
and that would be 17+ hand HUS-type TB horse. my bad.
devil’s advocate, yes, I read everything you wrote. You said that you don’t think QH breeders need to breed back to the blood from which they originated. And I disagree with you, and have the resources to back up my opinion. By the comments you have written, it is obvious to me you do not have the background to support your comments.
The ONLY people breeding QHs that look like TBs are the HUS people. And that’s just a HUGE portion of AQHA, isn’t it? LOL. Hardly worth bringing up as an argument against using TB blood in the QH…
I asked you earlier what other segment of the QH industry (besides HUS) is breeding QHs to look like TBs. You never answered me.
devil’s advocate – If someone makes ridiculous remarks like you did, I am going to call them on it. Yes, I’m defensive when it comes to the facts of breeding quality horses. I hear so many stupid remarks out there regarding this, and yours were echoing them, almost to the letter. You can have all the opinions you want. But don’t lead people on to believe they are backed up by experience and knowledge when they are not. You should not judge all TB influence on the QH by attending a QH show and watching a HUS class.
devil’s advocate said, “Why are you so defensive about it anyway? Who cares? It’s MY opinion on SOME QHs – I’m not out there breeding tons of little bulldogs, with crooked legs and jugheads. There is a compromise both to preserve the breed standard, and to keep the breed healthy and strong. Use TB blood. Just make it blood that fits in with the breed standard a little bit better than some 17+ HUS-type TB horse.”
“Who cares?” I care. A lot. I care about the integrity of the breed. I care about whether there will be horses for future generations that will hold up to whatever they want to do with them, and not be some extreme freak of a conformational nightmare, bred because someone was greedy and wanted a win for the moment.
And your last remark above is more like it. If you said that in the beginning, there would be no argument from me.
forthefutureofthebreed said… “devil’s advocate, yes, I read everything you wrote. You said that you don’t think QH breeders need to breed back to the blood from which they originated. And I disagree with you, and have the resources to back up my opinion. By the comments you have written, it is obvious to me you do not have the background to support your comments. The ONLY people breeding QHs that look like TBs are the HUS people. And that’s just a HUGE portion of AQHA, isn’t it? LOL. Hardly worth bringing up as an argument against using TB blood in the QH… I asked you earlier what other segment of the QH industry (besides HUS) is breeding QHs to look like TBs. You never answered me.”
Honey, you are fighting with the wrong person, AND taking my comments both out of context and twisting them into something I did not say. I said “breeding them back into TBs” note: BACK INTO, as in, TURNING THEM BACK INTO TBs. Not that they shouldn’t be bred back to that blood, as in using TB bloodlines in the QH breeding programs. AND, my first post on QH vs. TBs was (as stated earlier) tongue in cheek. But, as my ID suggests, I can play devil’s advocate both for and against either breed.
* And, since I was TALKING ABOUT HUS-PEOPLE, and NOT against using TB blood at all in QH breeding, there is no argument that I am defending with my comments about HUS people and the psuedo-TBs they ride.
* I didn’t answer you, because I was TALKING about the HUS people. SOME people, SOME breeders. NOT all, NOT most.
Anyway, it’s been lovely. I’m off to dinner, so I may not be timely in my responses, if you have anything else to misquote and try to rip me apart.
Bedonna is now peddling her stallions on AgDirect.
“You’re not going to believe this, but if you dig around in her site, you will find the revelation that she took fertility treatments. I think that’s where the bill medical bills came from. And she’s 39. And she’s divorced.”
Now, that’s just…no. There are no words.
devil’s advocate said, “I have owned both and the QHs were much more hardy than TBs. All that refinement has bred a less-than-hardy animal. Unfortunately, a lot of QH breeders are trying to change the QH from a hardy, sturdy, using horse right into a TB.”
This was your original comment that I was referring to. No one took anything out of context or twisted anything around. It was obvious (by your comment) what you believe. Simple as that. And I wasn’t the only one to comment about it, either.
You keep changing from your original comment and that’s impossible to keep to a comprehensible debate. And since you said, “Who cares?”, and “no one needs to read pedigree books or study QH bloodlines”, then you are the unarmed person in this one.
I am very passionate about this subject, and have spent my lifetime experiencing it and studying it. So yes, I care. A whole lot. Don’t make stupid statements about it or you’re going to hear comments from me you might not like.
Oooh… I just found this tidbit on her site:
Now I have customers in Mexico and Canada too!
LOL. I bet she does. I bet she does. Those killbuyers must have pinned her as a great source of horses a LONG time ago. This must be like Christmas for them!
http://www.burleson-arabians.com/scuba_horse.htm
No way! Are you freaking KIDDING me? Who, in their right effing mind would do that? Oh…wait…I forgot…he doesn’t even have a mind to be in the right of…
GAK!
I mean, ok…it’s cute if you squint sideways and pretend the first few pics don’t look like a hornless, hairy, pot-bellied billy goat, but come ON! This isn’t a DOG, it’s a HORSE! If he’d taken off in those flippers, they’d have been saying “bye-bye pony” and shelling out for the drugs to put the poor creature down after he ran like a bat out of hell through their fence, or tripped himself and broke a leg… Morons…
See, this is why people think mini’s are like cute little puppy dogs to feed treats to and play fetch with in the back yard. TREAT it like a fucking HORSE, and we wouldn’t have to worry about other asshats like yourselves getting themselves into trouble or abusing the poor little creatures…
GRRRR.
I can hear that scuba pony saying something like “hate you guys, screw you guys…” in Cartman’s voice, judging from the supremely unhappy look on his face.
forthefutureofthebreed said… “devil’s advocate said, “I have owned both and the QHs were much more hardy than TBs. All that refinement has bred a less-than-hardy animal. Unfortunately, a lot of QH breeders are trying to change the QH from a hardy, sturdy, using horse right into a TB.” ~~ This was your original comment that I was referring to. No one took anything out of context or twisted anything around. It was obvious (by your comment) what you believe. Simple as that. And I wasn’t the only one to comment about it, either. You keep changing from your original comment and that’s impossible to keep to a comprehensible debate. And since you said, “Who cares?”, and “no one needs to read pedigree books or study QH bloodlines”, then you are the unarmed person in this one. I am very passionate about this subject, and have spent my lifetime experiencing it and studying it. So yes, I care. A whole lot. Don’t make stupid statements about it or you’re going to hear comments from me you might not like.
Huh? Where in that original comment do I say that I am against using TB blood in QHs? I said “unfortunately, a lot of QH breeders are trying to ……. right into a TB.” Again, as I said, a lot are, NOT all, NOT most. There ARE people out there who are breeding QHs who look, act like TBs, and who have primarily TB bloodlines. Um, IMHO – if a horse is 75+% TB, regardless of what it’s yellow AQHA papers say, it’s more TB than QH. I’m not saying it’s NOT REGISTERED AQHA (Appendix), I’m saying the primary breed is TB.
Also, I have NOT changed from my original comment, at all, I have elaborated and expanded on my thoughts since there were a few people who “called me out”. I did say that when I said “Perhaps it’s that the QHs are more capable of foaling outdoors,” I meant it tongue-in-cheek, a response to someone else’s comment about QHs foaling. I will further elaborate, since you are determined to show how much your superiority and great knowledge exceeds mine. When I said, “WHO CARES?” I meant who the hell on this blog cares SO MUCH ABOUT MY OPINION that they would become so rabid in response to my comment about SOME QHs looking like TBs, and the fact that I feel it is unfortunate that a lot of breeders are trying to change the QH …. right into a TB” (in the attempt to create AQHA registered 16+ hand psuedo-TBs to show in HUS).
I find the fact that you are trying SO HARD to discredit what I have said almost amusing. Are you so narcissistic, that you feel you must attack anyone who’s ideas do not fall right in line with yours? Okay, so you have spent a LIFETIME studying pedigrees, you have a LIFETIME of experience. Bully for you. That does not make everything you think automatically correct. Besides, I have never said I was pro-Foundation (um, but aren’t there Foundation approved sires who were actually TBs?) – I have never said I wanted to take the QH, as a breed, back to a mustang – that would simply be the opposite end of the spectrum from my whole point on the TBs, and I feel the same way…. I’m quite happy here in the middle, with the AQHA breed ideal as my personal “goal”.
You have a history of calling people derogatory names and asserting self-importantly that they are making “stupid statements”. Come off it, take a chill pill. You seem to be a typical egomaniac, who is positive that your way (and the way of those who agree with you) is the only correct way. Anyone else is deserving of your contempt and derision. Any stupid comments I have made, I admitted were either a) sarcastic or b) intended to be stupid – you may have to read between the lines to get that, or perhaps you have to simply have a sense of humor.
Let me spell it out for you, very clearly, so that you do not find the need to continue to attack me & my (humble) opinion.
* I believe, and I am not alone, that TBs are (as a general rule) less hardy than QHs. They more often need to be blanketed, require more food to maintain, and so on. Again, I am speaking in generalities, I’m not saying all – perhaps you have known a QH who required 30lbs of feed a day to maintain, and a TB who flourished just by looking at the grass in the next paddock over.
* I believe that a lot (not all, not most) of QH breeders are breeding horses who do not epitomize the breed ideal or standard. This may be HUS TB-type QHs (which I used as my example) – it could be halter horses who have teeny-weensy little hooves and no leg bone to speak of – it could be the HERDA prone lines, it could be….. I could go on and on, but I won’t. However, in my previous example I chose to use the HUS TB-type horses. I am sorry that I did not make it clearer for you by writing every single ‘disclaimer’ to my stated opinions.
Pick on someone else. There are plenty of people out there who are actually stupid and who are perpetuating their stupidity through their breeding practices. Write some emails to them. I’m not breeding HUS-type QHs, or bull-dog type QHs, or Mulan-style (you know, the Disney movie) halter horses. May I suggest, however, that if you really are interested in education, you may try to tone down the holier-than-thou attitude. Most people will flat out do the opposite of what an offensive, superior, smug know-it-all tells them they have to do.
and on a lighter note, the poor little scuba pony – maybe they did not actually strap the flippers on. Do you suppose this guy’s wife finds him slightly scary?
I would like to point out that Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source. Anyone can alter the information, add information, etc.
The Burleson scary people have a “complete selection of dwarf minis” available for acting horses O.o
devil’s advocate said, You have a history of calling people derogatory names and asserting self-importantly that they are making “stupid statements”. Come off it, take a chill pill. You seem to be a typical egomaniac, who is positive that your way (and the way of those who agree with you) is the only correct way. Anyone else is deserving of your contempt and derision. Any stupid comments I have made, I admitted were either a) sarcastic or b) intended to be stupid – you may have to read between the lines to get that, or perhaps you have to simply have a sense of humor.
May I suggest, however, that if you really are interested in education, you may try to tone down the holier-than-thou attitude. Most people will flat out do the opposite of what an offensive, superior, smug know-it-all tells them they have to do.
I have no history of calling anyone names, whatsoever. Why the lies? If being knowledgeable and vocal about a subject somehow makes me deserving of you repeating remarks you’ve heard elsewhere, then so be it. I’ve learned to accept it all, and have many enemies because of it. It doesn’t bother me, and I am secure in what I know. I don’t have to “tone down” anything. I am no different than FHOTD and her written opinions on her blog. In fact, I’m not even close to being as outspoken as she is, yet you’re here enjoying the tirades that are far more judgmental than anything I’ve ever said. That’s different, though, right? It’s so easy to spread lies hiding behind a screen name isn’t it? People know who I am, and I’m proud of what I do and the horses I breed. I’m proud of the published books and articles I’ve written, and of my contributions and accomplishments in the horse industry. Those who know me know that what you say is untrue. I’ve never hidden who I am. I can’t say the same about you though, can I?
Anyone who has accomplished what I have in my lifetime is subject to attacks by those not willing to devote the same amount of time and effort to a subject. That doesn’t make me a bad person. It only makes others feel inferior, which is something I cannot help. I am very outspoken about irresponsible, stupid breeding practices by uneducated people, and I don’t mind calling them out when they say something stupid. Most people don’t like that. Tough shit. I really don’t care about you personallly; I care more about accurate information regarding the breeds of horses that I am involved with. I guess you could call your college professors “holier-than-thou”, too, since they’re experts on a subject. There are plenty of people who have learned a lot from me, and they appreciate the information I am willing to share as much as I enjoy sharing it.
But of course, your last remark, “the poor little scuba pony – maybe they did not actually strap the flippers on. Do you suppose this guy’s wife finds him slightly scary?” is much more of a contribution than anything I’ve ever said.
Right off the bat – yes, you have called people names, perhaps indirectly, I don’t really have the time or desire to search back through pages and pages of comments. You have accused them of being stupid, you say “stupid statements” or “idiodic statements” or “moronic statements,” whatever. I know nothing of you (thank God) from elsewhere, I know you only through this Fugly site. Unless you are the bitchy alter-ego of Fugly, you ARE different. She serves to enlighten through SNARK and humor. I have seen no humor at all in what you write. I feel in no way inferior to you – you have different knowledge than me, just because you specialize in one thing does not make you better than me. You may be the most authoritative voice in the industry, however, you are a pain in the ass and a poor educator. You may know a lot. You don’t know it all. I don’t know it all either, but at least I don’t pretend to. I’ve found the saying “the more I know, the more I realize I don’t know” to be quite appropriate in many walks of life. However, I am entitled to my opinions, as you are yours – and just because mine may not fall into line with yours, I am not automatically wrong. The funniest thing is, I don’t believe there have actually been that many points (on stock horse breeding practices) that I disagree with you on. You are just looking for someone to belittle in order to show off how much smarter you are than other people – and because of my first “sarcastic” comment, you chose me. In general, the “holier-than-thou” professors have less influence on their students than the ones who teach with humor and understanding. Good God, you have the knowledge and experience, why don’t you try to use it for good and education, not as a weapon to try to knock down people. You alienate far more people than you influence through the methods you choose. Perhaps you are the nicest lady in the world, in person, however you do not come across well online.
My comment about the scuba pony was not meant to be enlightening or to change the world. It was simply a comment in response to another comment, probably both are from people who do not take themselves as seriously as you take yourself. Get a sense of humor, it will do you good.
I’m done. This is getting to be ridiculous. You have specialized pedigree knowledge; however, you misunderstood what I wrote, got up on your soapbox, and you are not going to get off of it graciously. You can not just admit you misunderstood what I said and let it go.
Years ago, The Western Horseman magazine did a survey of AQHA Champions (don’t recall whether it was “Supreme Champions”, but I think it WAS), and the percentage of close-up TB blood in them, from 1/8 to 7/8ths. The great majority of Champions were right in the middle – at least 50% TB close up. There were one or two 1/8 (extreme bulldog type) champions, a few on either side of the 50% marker, and one or two that were 7/8ths TB. The FEWEST number (at the time the survey was made), were those with little or no TB close up. You can draw your own conclusions.
Sandy M,
Are you jumping in to argue alongside FtFotB on this moot point? I HAVE NEVER SAID I DO NOT THINK THERE OUGHT TO BE ANY TB BLOOD IN THE QH.
Sandy M – You are very correct and it was about the Supreme Champions.
And to anyone else who cares – There is a lot of historical material out there on the TB influence of the QH, and it’s all so very important (to those who care about QHs). It’s even more important now given the “issues” with the QHs that are apparent today. This is why I get upset when someone makes a remark like “some people are trying to turn QHs into TBs”. They’re general statements (many usually stated from what people hear others say rather than from their own research), but those opinions may influence others who may not know a whole lot about Quarter Horses in general (much like many have stated here on this blog). It’s hard to go back and fix impressions already made. The bottom line is the improvement and long term integrity of a breed, no matter WHO says it and HOW they say it. I can guarantee you that if someone made a general remark about Morgans that wasn’t quite accurate, the defenders of that breed who are here would be speaking up quite rapidly to correct it.
No one is trying to turn QHs into TBs. There are QHs out there that are 15/16ths TB blood (or more) that you can’t tell has a drop of TB blood in them by looking at them. And I have many photos of TBs that you wouldn’t believe are TBs – they look like heavy built, old style QHs. (Some of those photos are posted on my blog). Speaking of my blog, nowhere will you find where I call anyone names, or put anyone down. Many have read my blog and told me they have learned a lot from it. So much for being a crappy teacher…
And to devil’s advocate – Teaching through “snark and humor” is fine. Calling someone a fucking moron, asshat, dipshit, etc. is not what what I do, nor have I ever called anyone names. FHOTD can do that all she wants, as it’s her blog and she’s funny. I could resort to calling you all sorts of things because you are so wrong about me. But I don’t do that, and here is not the place to do that. But if you’ll come out from hiding, I’ll be more than happy to do it privately…
Just presenting a factoid regarding % of TB in modern AQHA Champions. That’s all.