But his horses are all pedigreed!
Oct 16 2007
I thought about this guest blog today because the guy sitting next to me at computer training said his brother in North Dakota can’t sell any horses right now even though they’re all “pedigreed Quarter Horses!” I pointed out to him that AQHA papered horses are approximately as common as mosquitoes and the low end is not selling. Not in North Dakota, not in Florida, not in California, not anywhere.
In this illustration, you will find a 4-generation pedigree. (That would be the subject horse PLUS four generations of ancestors.) No, the subject horse doesn’t count as a generation, contrary to what the foundation Quarter Horse and foundation Appaloosa “registries†will have you believing. If, for example, you WERE to count the subject horse as a generation, would that make the dam the “first dam in the second generation� And the grand dam would be “the second dam in the third generation� How confusing is that? The DAM is the FIRST DAM in the FIRST generation. The fourth dam is the fourth mare back on the mare line in the fourth generation. (That would be INFRA RED in the pedigree shown). It’s so much easier to understand when used correctly. 
In the Thoroughbred pedigree at left, there is no inbreeding/linebreeding (duplicated ancestors or common ancestors) in four generations. The possibility of duplicate ancestors within the NEXT couple of generations after that is quite high, and it increases as you go further back. Thoroughbreds rarely show a lack of inbreeding/linebreeding within the first 6 generations of their pedigrees, and they rarely have any linebreeding/inbreeding within the first three generations. One look at the pedigree of Mill Reef further back, we find many duplicated ancestors. The sire of MUMTAZ MAHAL, and the sire of the sire of INFRA RED is The Tetrarch. QUICKLY’S dam is also by a son of The Tetrarch. That is three crosses to The Tetrarch in 7 generations. In this particular pedigree, there are 157 crosses to Pocahontas, the highest number of duplication in 12 generations of any ancestor in this pedigree. Next is Touchstone, at 150 crosses, Stockwell at 140, and so on.
The sire, the sire’s sire (grandsire), the grandsire’s sire (great grandsire), etc. on back along the very top of the pedigree, is called the TAIL MALE LINE, SIRE LINE or MALE LINE. On the bottom side of the pedigree, the dam’s dam (granddam or 2nd dam), the granddam’s dam (great granddam or 3rd dam), etc. on back along the very bottom side of the pedigree, is called the TAIL FEMALE LINE, FEMALE LINE, or MARE LINE. Each horse in the pedigree also has a tail male and tail female line if you looked at their pedigrees individually.
Reading a sale catalog page is pretty self-explanatory if you read enough of them, are familiar with your breed, and know the horses in the pedigrees. Usually, a 3-generation pedigree is given, a little blurb on the sire of the horse selling, and then as much information that will fit is given on the female line of the horse. If the female line was a good one, sometimes only one or two dams are shown so their best performers and producers can be highlighted. I’ve seen poor quality mare lines in a sale catalog, going back 6 generations of females, looking for something decent to highlight in that family. The highest quality foals are always shown. On this catalog page for a running Quarter Horse, note that there are three foals listed under the first dam, yet she produced 7 foals (including the one selling). Those three foals (all half-siblings to the horse going through the sale) are her best three. Note that it mentions at the 2nd dam that she’s a half-sister to BUZZ TE and SUMPIN SILLY. Rita Seis, Buzz Te and Sumpin Silly all share the same dam, but have different sires. (I looked them up). They are HALF-SIBLINGS. If the compiler of the catalog were to use half-siblings to mean “same siresâ€, there wouldn’t be room to list even the best ones. Buzz Te’s sire is Easy Jet. Easy Jet sired 2,505 foals! Which ones would you identify as Buzz Te’s “half-siblings†if you believe half-siblings mean they share the same sire? Since Buzz Te and Rita Seis share the same dam, now that is telling us something. Rita Seis is a big time mare, and a half-sibling to her tells us a lot about that half-sibling.
Back to pedigree characteristics…There are other features of a pedigree that could give us a clue about the quality of the subject horse. Aside from the obvious successful or famous horses in a pedigree as opposed to poor quality ancestors no one has ever heard of, the SIBLING RELATIONSHIPS are important. These are the duplicated ancestors and their full and half-siblings. This can intensify the influence of that particular blood. It might be something you want, and it might be something you want to stay away from, depending on the success of those horses and your preferences. For example, those of you who hate IMPRESSIVE in a QH pedigree might want to also steer clear of any horses in a pedigree who were SIBLINGS to Impressive. (You need to know your pedigrees in order to spot them). Siblings are not equal. They may share the same parents, but they are not equal, in phenotype, performance or production ability (but they can be similar), so that’s another thing to keep in mind. Unsuccessful siblings to successful horses are also not recommended. They didn’t do well themselves, and probably don’t have the genetic strength to pass on their good breeding. There are exceptions, but not many.
Another important aspect of a horse’s pedigree chart is the positions of certain ancestors in that pedigree. For example, you wouldn’t want a stallion sired by a horse that is a known, successful sire of broodmares, but doesn’t have any good siring sons. Likewise, you wouldn’t want a mare whose sire isn’t known to sire good daughters. These are “ingredients†of a pedigree that can be analyzed throughout the whole bloodline; as far back as you want to research. You don’t have to be a breeder to know your pedigrees. When you are well-versed in the bloodlines of your breed, you are able to analyze a prospect’s pedigree well, with knowledgeable insight into the potential of that horse. Knowing this, it is easy to see why a horse with a pedigree full of obscure, do-nothing horses (his genotype) most likely is NOT going to have the ability to perform at high levels or produce anything of real quality. His “phenotype†(conformation and class) will confirm that. 
Pedigrees are only a small part of knowing horses, breeding them, showing them, etc. Pedigrees are the only tool we have that we have some control over, and there are documented records to draw from. Check out some of the pedigrees of proven horses, and you will find successful ancestors, and lots of sibling relationships in the pedigree, (even if they’re 12 generations back). We can’t always predict the outcome of a mating, but we CAN give the potential foal the best chance at having a quality life if that foal is born from quality individuals and successful, quality ancestors.
76 comments to “But his horses are all pedigreed!”
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OMG first again!
great post!!! i know there will be whole lot of people reading and rereading and rereading again this post as it is very informative and has a ton of information on the techincalities of breeding paperwork.
Awesome post! I’ve been fooling with horses for nearly 20 years and I learned SO much from this post.
Can you direct us to helpful pedigree sites for searches? The only one I’m familiar with (that is fairly good and not run by a breed organization – so you don’t have to be a member to get to it, is allbreedpedigree.com)
I just wanted to point out, and you did mention that it is just the opinion of some breeders, so I am not contesting the accuracy of your post, but many geneticists would disagree with the assumption or belief that the dam gives more than the sire as far as features to the foal. what many people don’t remember is that not all genetic makeup is expressed physically, and there is no set formula for what will be or not be physically displayed by an offspring (remember this is true for most every mammal). Geneticists can definitively prove that genetic makeup is inherited 50-50 from both the dam and sire, and thus would contend that though the given foal may resemble the dam more in some aspects this could be a result of
A.) aspects of the genetic makeup of the sire that the sire himself did not express is being shown in this foal and this may resemble certain aspects of the dam’s conformation or personality though it may (with future science) be pinpointed to the sire. B.) In this case more genetic material from the dam is physically expressed by the foal, this does not mean however that the foal is any more genetically represented by the dam, and because the pattern of gene expression is not fixed a subsequent generation may then express some traits inherited from the genetics of that foals sire, that the foal himself did not express (see point A)
Again i want to emphasize that your post was excellent and really informative, I just wanted to add in my 2 cents because I personally have met many people who adhere to this theory andhave had this discussion before.
Thank you for sharing what I am sure is a small inkling of a vast pool of knowledge on pedigrees.
Pedigree query is a good place to look at pedigrees, for those who haven’t heard of it, yet… they list all the sires in blue and mares in pink to make it easy for everyone. They also add in color coding for linebreeding and common ancestors.
They do not go as in depth as you do here though. Thank you Fugs for posting this for us.
Ooops! I forgot to add in that not all horses are listed on pedigree query. That is one area I feel they could improve, but it would take a great deal of time to make sure everybody is listed properly.
Excellent post!
Not a whole lot I can add to it, besides yup.
id like to ad that not all registration papers are created equal.
there are a plethora of registries and association on america and canada and they are not all on the same level. its very easy to get registraion papers on a horse with known ancestry and even more scary is that you can get registration papers on a horse in some cases that are (according to registry) supposed to prove linage but do NOT require DNA proof of parantage to register offspring.
TYPE registries (like warmblood) may in SOME cases accept horses that have passed inspection approval, have impressive performance records an or successful offspring but have no known linage. such registration papers are useful and can very much improve the value of the horse. however you can also get your dun mustang of unknown breeding its very own set of “Tarpan” or “Sorraia-Mustang” registration papers. there are a dozen odd “breed” registries that do NOT require any scientific proof of parentage to register foals. the potential for fraud is huge in these cases and it really boggles me how such registries claim to be promoting an actual breed or strain but dont require breeders to PROVE what they are claiming to be registering. in the case of developing or rare breeds phenotype requirements are also paramount to avoid LOSING uniformed phenoytpe.
if people want their rare, unique or developing breeds/strains to be taken seriously they must have a LEGIT registration process that can be held up on scientific levels. could you imagine submitting stud reports to AQHA, JC, AMHA or AHA but refusing to provide DNA proofs? it would end with histerical laughter at the regsitraion office. buys need to KNOW what those registration papers prove and what the registry requires for proof. all of the BIG registries have set the standard for scientific and legal registration of horses to help protect their members.
there are plenty of small registries that register rare horses and in some cases endangered breeds. truly legit registries are all committed to protecting their breed and protecting their members/buyers. just because a breeder/strain is rare does not mean that breeders “can not afford to pay for DNA tests” which is a very common excuse i hear. we live in MODERN times where fraud is everywhere and dishonest people are around every corner. like many educated horse owners i look at the requirements of registry as strongly as look at the quality of the individual horse. if the registry does not require DNA proof for registration (or in the case of SOME warmblood registries, a high conformation/perfomance standard) im not interested. half-ass registration papers that dont scientificly RPOVE the linage of horse or the quality of its conformation/performance are not worth my time, energy or money.
for people who are “off the beaten path” when it comes to the breeds/strains and types of horses they ride/breed/sell the issue of Registration can become complicated and frustrating.
I have to ask the question. Are there any registered stallions out there witht the name Truck Out of Town?
Great guest post, very educational! Thanks!!
amirageofgrace,
sounds like something that would have been sired by the hunter Truckin Kinda Guy….
I think there needs to be a blog listing legitimate registries.
I would love to know which would make the cut. I know the Blue-eyed Horse Association would be on the top of the list!
vpireiner said, “Can you direct us to helpful pedigree sites for searches? The only one I’m familiar with (that is fairly good and not run by a breed organization – so you don’t have to be a member to get to it, is allbreedpedigree.com)”
Thanks. I’m glad to be of help.
As far as helpful pedigree sites? There aren’t any beyond the records that are accessible by members of the different breed associations. I NEVER use those free online databases. Everyone thinks they’rej a pedigree expert, and everyone has access to add horses to those databases. Noble cause, but HUGE mess.
If anyone is seriously interested in pedigrees, I recommend they get one of the pedigree software programs available for your own use. The two I’m familiar with come with a huge database that you can add to, and you are the only one responsible for your mistakes. You can then use official records for any horses you want to add to your database. And, you WILL get what you pay for, so don’t be frugal when it comes to buying a pedigree program.
“samtastic said: I just wanted to point out, and you did mention that it is just the opinion of some breeders, so I am not contesting the accuracy of your post, but many geneticists would disagree with the assumption or belief that the dam gives more than the sire as far as features to the foal.”
The genetic content is donated 50/50 but the mare has the opportunity to influence the foal after birth and so add things like behaviour, position in the herd hierarchy, temperament and attitude towards humans and human hadnling which are all going to influence the foal’s future performance. This is where the 85% influence comes from. I read somewhere (and I can find out where if you want) where a famous german warmlood breeder said they had gone away from the use of embryo transfer from their fabulous performance mares because the resulting foals were being raised by dumber, slower, clumpier draft type recipient mares and were tending to take on those qualities themselves.
Oh and also, much thanks to forthefutureofthebreed. Great post!
Fug, that cannot be a TB sale page, as the bottom says parentage verified by transported cooled semen. I think that’s a racing QH. Also, black type in regards to race horses means Stakes race winners.
samtastic, yes, a foal receives the exact number of chromosomes from each parent. The different genes on those chromosomes, however, will either express themselves, or they don’t. Full siblings do not receive the exact same set of genes, so this tells me that there is influence here that can be offset either way, although usually in favor of the dam. Since the equine genome map has now been completed, and there have been huge strides in genetics just within the last five years, it might be best to leave the interpretation of genetic inheritance open for awhile. The best books on equine genetics were written by Dr. Ann Bowling of UC Davis. One is called, Horse Genetics, and the other is called, Genetics of the Horse. Both are extremely well-written, and are fairly recent as far as genetic publications go, but there have been more discoveries just since they were published.
Also, sometimes it’s useful to talk to longtime breeders who have firsthand experience with the genetic inheritance among their own stock.
If you do a Google search for Equine Mitochondrial DNA studies, or check out the website, tbheritage.com, more info can be found on female line influence.
Also, there are numerous websites that explain the Large Heart Theory, or the X-Factor, which is also passed on in a certain path through a pedigree. Stallions cannot pass this on to their sons. So there is also a female factor here that is not equal to the male influence.
Thanks for your comments.
^^ which is why the old saying ‘great horses have great mothers’ is so true.
4thehorses said…
Fug, that cannot be a TB sale page, as the bottom says parentage verified by transported cooled semen. I think that’s a racing QH. Also, black type in regards to race horses means Stakes race winners.
The formatting of the post doesn’t remain the same as it is entered into the blog text box. If you keep reading, you will find that the text is still referring to the pedigree shown at the beginning. The sale catalog page is addressed further down.
Black type doesn’t only mean stakes winners. Lower case black type indicates a stakes-placed horse. In QH and Paint sale catalogs for non-race horses, black type can indicate ROM, AQHA or APHA Champion, and NCHA title earners and money earners.
The mare actually DOES contribute more genetically than the male.
Offspring get their nuclear DNA half from each of their parents.
BUT the mother contributes the EGG and with a nucleus and her DNA but also in the egg is genetic material in the mitochondria. Mitochondria are the organelles of the cell which convert energy. Mitochonria contain their own genetic DNA material (look it up if you want technical details enter into google “wiki human mitochondrial genetics” and you will find somewhere to start)
So, you get half your DNA from your father, but you get half your DNA plus the egg and its contents uncluding a bit more genetic material for producing the certain proteins involved in energy synthesis from your mother.
It is not a lot of extra genetic material but it is some and it is in relation to a very important function, the supply of energy.
Even putting aside the behaviour learned from mum there is going to be a slightly greater genetic influence. Energy production and metabolism is obviously important to performance events like race horses.
The old observation that mares may contribute a little more to their foals may have some scientific support.
I will retype here the “Black Type System” as given for the QH World Show Sale, from the catalog. These are non-race horses.
BOLD CAPITAL LETTERS: World Champion, Congress Champions, AQHA, APHA, and PHBA Champions, Superiors, NCHA Bronze, Silver, Gold & Platinum Awards and/or money earners of more than $10,000.
Bold Upper/Lower Letters: Select World and Reserve World Champions, Congress Limited Champions, AQHA, APHA and PHBA ROMs, NCHA and NRHA Certificates of Ability and/or money-earners of more than $1500. All other performers appear in regular type.
Here are the black type definitions for TBs in TB sale catalogs, which also apply to racing QHs and Paints.
There are several different classes of black type races, which are described in the following information. A black type race must, by definition, close for entries at least 72 hours before it is run. Fees must also be paid towards the purse by owners and/or additional (added) money contributed by or through the host racetrack. In addition, a stakes race must have a total purse value distributed on the day of the race of $40,000 or more. In the more liberal “stakes” definition the amount of purse is not a factor, but the race qualifies for black type in sales catalogues which follow ICSC standards only if it meets the total purse criteria.
A horse’s name, when it is a winner or has placed in a black type race, is indicated in bold (hence “black”) type. Winners’ names are in upper case (capital) letters. Horses placing 2nd or 3rd are in lower case letters.
In addition, further symbols or designators associated with the black type race will indicate the quality or level of the race in question.
Graded Black Type Races (G) – All around the world, the “graded” race is recognized as being of the highest quality. In some countries, the equivalent word is “group”. Graded races are non-restricted (age and sex qualifications are not considered restrictions) and have a minimum added value of $75,000. They are divided into grades 1, 2 and 3, with the best races being grade 1. Graded races are identified in the pedigree by the name of the race, followed with the designator (G) and 1, 2 or 3.
Other races given priority in a sale catalog are Listed Black Type Races (L), Restricted Black Type Races (R), and there are some other black type or stakes races with are not restricted, but do not have sufficient “added” money to qualify as listed races.
These designations comply with standards established by International Cataloguing Standards Committee and adopted by the Society of International Thoroughbred Auctioneers.
Ya but a lot of that isn’t going to be like the genes pass on for things like color and conformation.
Many genes don’t show themselves until they are with the right group of genes.
Things like X Factor does not prove that a mare gives more then the sire just that some genes are linked to one sex gene or the other. The sire would still be giving the gene to his son just not the right one to make a difference.
I’m more with the color genes so it’s easier for me to explain things in those terms. Flaxen, Agouti, Silver they all work only in the right cases. For each of them it’s the base color that matters as to if they will show or not. If a color gene can work this way so can some of the other things. For X factor it’s the sex gene that controls it.
To make this basic say we have a gene for Necks. If the gene is N it’s normal, and n is for a Nest. If you breed to Nn horses they are normal but can have an nn foal with a nest. If the mare is nn herself and the foal is nn it seems like the mare is giving more of herself but she isn’t because the stallion also had n and passed it on. If she would have been bred to an NN stud her foal would never have her nest but yes could pass on that n gene and have future foals that are if bred to an nn or Nn horse.
Now I am not saying that the mare can’t be more dominant of the two. I have seen many cases where the foal turned out more like the mare and in ways that depended on the genes not on what he learned from her. I have also seen studs that almost also breed to the mare. The foals always come out more like the mare no matter what she is and studs that would throw foals that were clearly part daddy. But there is really no way of saying if it is because one parent gives more. It more then likely isn’t if we take into account the genes that do not work alone or only work when homozgous. The stallion is still passing on his genes in the right amount just they might not be able to work based on the rest of the genes past on by her AND HIM.
“Full siblings do not receive the exact same set of genes, so this tells me that there is influence here that can be offset either way, although usually in favor of the dam.”
That doesn’t really matter for dam or sire. It’s because each of those parents have two of each and only pass on one. You can have a number of different mixes out of that.
Did For the future wrote this? I love their blog!
I think some of the confusion over which parent contributes more has to do with separating genes from environment. The dam adds more to the foal via environmental influences (her temperament, how easy she keeps, etc.) because the foal is with her for 11 months gestation plus however many months for weaning.
Please note I am not talking about embryo transfer foals here… It would be really interesting to know if those ET foals tend to be calmer, since their “birth mothers” are usually big, calm draft or draft cross mares.
Fugly, I am so glad someone believes in bloodlines, besides myself. Now I believe that photo is of skippa star, parrot mouth and all. Am I correct?
Oh my! – Yes, that’s Skipa Star. Balance and perfection when viewed from the side, he profiled with the best of them in spite of any other faults he had.
As a serious breeder who has invested seriously in serious breeding stock, I have to say that that is an EXCELLENT post.
The other thing I might add is that folks really need to educate themselves on the correct type for their breed, as well as bloodlines before they take the plunge to create more animals. If you want to be taken seriously, then take what you are doing seriously. I really wish more breeders could get that message.
Ozhorse, thank you for that! Indeed, MtDNA and the recent discoveries do explain a few things. One is the aptitude for racing certain distances. No wonder the TB people have always placed so much emphasis on the mare line.
Gretchen said…
As a serious breeder who has invested seriously in serious breeding stock, I have to say that that is an EXCELLENT post.
The other thing I might add is that folks really need to educate themselves on the correct type for their breed, as well as bloodlines before they take the plunge to create more animals. If you want to be taken seriously, then take what you are doing seriously. I really wish more breeders could get that message.
Thank you, Gretchen! I think one of the most important things a breeder must know is what a quality horse LOOKS LIKE. People must know what quality is before they can breed for it. Thank you for being a serious, educated breeder.
Excellent! Now we just need to send it out to all the people bragging on pedigree in their sales ads who obviously don’t have a clue how it works…. wait, first we would have to re-write it in words of one syllable..
This was really useful. I’ll definately be bookmarking it as a hady reference.
Very well written. It makes me feel good to know that such knoweledgeable folks will share the wealth…the wealth of know-how that is!!
CutNJump said…
Ooops! I forgot to add in that not all horses are listed on pedigree query. That is one area I feel they could improve, but it would take a great deal of time to make sure everybody is listed properly.
There is no place that is 100% correct and complete. The breed associations’ databases are as close as one can get to accuracy and completeness. I use my own pedigree program for pedigree research. I am confident in my experience to assure an accurate database, and if there are any mistakes or typos, they are my fault. I don’t have to rely on others (who might not know what they’re doing) to provide accurate pedigree information.
For example, if you use APHA’s online database, you can probably trust the information on APHA horses, but need to double check the QH and TB information that is given with those breed registries.
Relying on those free online databases for accurate pedigrees is a big mistake, in my opinion. In the beginning, I thought it was a very neat concept, but knowing their integrity is questionable, it makes it a sad deal.
Great article
Don’t know if it is an Aussie difference or a me difference but the only thing I’d say different is referring to the sire line just as top line and the mare line as the bottom line.
Breeding a breed with such a small gene pool, the significance of inbreeding/line breeding appears even in the 4 generation pedigree and influences the choice of sire to match to your mare considerably. We try and keep it below 5% but there are a lot around with more than that. If you go further back it gets very scary.
One thing I find frustrating is the lack of performance information for the mare lines (of my breed). The pedigree shows the studbook status of the mare, and it helps for instance to know there is an unbroken line of star mares or better, but that only tells you about conformation and how they moved on one day in their life. We have more information about stallions, though nothing like the indexes kept for the Warmblood sires, but tracking down mare information is much harder.
Because all the stallions in a main studbook pedigree should at the very least have passed the basic inspection standards and extended testing, it is the quality of the mare line that will really differentiate. If the individual in front of me is really good, even if it has a hole in the pedigree (because it is based on one days assessment for mares and they can be injured etc) I would not be too bothered (and further back the hole the less so), but if there are several average horses in there, then no matter how good the individual horse you don’t know if it will breed on, those average genes from the mare line may come through whilst you horse is expressing.
On the other hand I would never buy on just the papers, they are just another tool to help you form an opinion, and that opinion may be different for a performance horse, particularly a gelding, than for horse with breeding specifically in mind.
blackfluffyhorses said Don’t know if it is an Aussie difference or a me difference but the only thing I’d say different is referring to the sire line just as top line and the mare line as the bottom line.
Thanks.
It’s an international format. All the Australian and New Zealand references I have here (which is a LOT, including many sale catalogues, stallion registers and stud books), the sire line is shown on the top side; the female line on the bottom side of the pedigree.
A pedigree with “holes” on the bottom side is common. Only the very elite have pedigrees with no holes. Those holes will be on the bottom, because a sire line is supposed to be the best of the best. No excuses there. The sire line of the DAM should also be without holes. It’s the bottom quadrant that is usually lacking in equal quality to the rest of the pedigree, on MOST horses. Rarely do you find a mare line (of any breed) that is full of proven performers and producers. Those would be the cream of the crop-bred horses, and are the ones that cost so much.
barrelracer20x said…
Very well written. It makes me feel good to know that such knoweledgeable folks will share the wealth…the wealth of know-how that is!!
Thank you. I believe it is an obligation of those who have any knowledge at all to share that knowledge with those who want to learn. We are all in this for the horses.
My mare’s dam was a line-bred Weiscamp horse. Because Weiscamp did know how to balance the inbreeding, he created wonderful horses that were beautiful AND useful. Even though there are no Wesicamp horses on the sire side, my mare looks like she could have come from Weiscamps program.
Dayle said…
My mare’s dam was a line-bred Weiscamp horse. Because Weiscamp did know how to balance the inbreeding, he created wonderful horses that were beautiful AND useful. Even though there are no Wesicamp horses on the sire side, my mare looks like she could have come from Weiscamps program.
He sure did know how to set a type, didn’t he? And many people knew that breeding Wiescamp-bred mares to Impressive-bred stallions produced some great horses. It’s funny it didn’t work as well the other way around, with Wiescamp on top and Impressive on the bottom. Of course, since it was done so often, there are probably some exceptions to this. But certain stallions are known to be sires of good broodmares, and others are sires of sires. And then there are a few stallions who sired everything – they were a great sire of sires, great broodmare sires, and sires of great performers. Dash For Cash was one of them.
One thing I have noticed with a lot of people, and their horses’ pedigrees is that they will claim the horse is well-bred. Meaning that the pedigree has a big name stallion or two in the pedigree (maybe in the third generation), such as Peppy San Badger, or Two Eyed Jack. The one thing that still separates the good ones from the not-so-good ones are the horses in between those big name horses and the subject horse. If the son or daughter of Peppy San Badger or Two Eyed Jack (for example) aren’t among the best offspring of those big name stallions, the subject horse isn’t much different than your everyday variety, commonly-bred horse without the close up big names in the pedigree. And chances are, the mares in the pedigree were extremely common and not very well-bred. Horses who ARE genuinely well-bred usually don’t end up in BYBs breeding programs unless there are issues with the quality of the horse, or the horse has major holes in the pedigree, or both.
samtastic said:Geneticists can definitively prove that genetic makeup is inherited 50-50 from both the dam and sire, and thus would contend that though the given foal may resemble the dam more in some aspects this could be a result of…
… and there were other discussions regarding inheritance, most of these statements are mostly true.
BUT although most of these discussion did not, as far as I can tell, discuss the statistical and quantitative genetic component of why mares have a seemingly contribute more to the success of progeny.
If you take a single stallion’s get for example. Since a stallion can breed so very many mares, he is a constant in the genotype contribution. The only variable factor is the mares genotype. Since one mare makes one foal per year her genetic contribution is singular and measurable, while the stallions contribution is the only constant and is measured by the performance of foal. Therefore statistically the contribution of the stallion is nullified and the only measurable contribution is from the mare.
Since phenotype equals the interaction between the genotype and the environment, the mare de fact will have more to contribute to the phenotype of the foal. This is where all of immeasurable components of the mare’s genotype is invaluable, all the way from the mitochrondial DNA (which has some significant effect on cellular respiration and how efficient that is) all the way to the mare’s personality, hierarchy in the social order… etc.
It’s all very simple: In any given get of a stallion, the variable is the mare.
>>I have to ask the question. Are there any registered stallions out there witht the name Truck Out of Town?< <
LOL, not in AQHA there aren’t. I looked it up after hearing her say that because I thought it was a real horse, and just a bad one! hahahahahaha…
I loved this guest blog because I didn’t know some of this either. Sorry for any formatting changes or confusion about graphics – it didn’t come through exactly as sent to me and I am working overtime this week plus just killed my evening having a contest with the 3 year old filly to see which of us is more stubborn. I am, but it took awhile to establish that this evening.
A bit off topic, but FTFOTB have just been over reading your blog from which I have learned heaps. Especially the much higher percentage of recent TB blood in the QH than I ever realised. Never having had much to do with QH’s (before I was a Friesian girl I was a TB/Warmblood one) I was vaguely aware that the early QH’s grew out of TB’s crossed with others but had that in the dim dark past (1800′s or something).
Anyway, I digress, what I wanted to ask was, in considering your outcrosses for Tobiano breeding you didn’t mention the warmbloods.
There aren’t that many around (and like all breeding where colour becomes more important than type) there are some questionable ones, but also some nice ones around and they have size and substance. Maybe too much size for what you want?
http://www.umenno.com/photos.shtml
Stormie said…
“Many genes don’t show themselves until they are with the right group of genes.”
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Exactly, it is the cross of the mare and the stallion. Not specifically one over the other. Some animals do have dominant genes that leave their stamp on the offspring whether sire or dam.
The only way to PROVE excellent breeding is by the quality of the offspring produced. It take years before one can see the result because horses don’t get trained or compete until in their 2nd or 3rd year at the earliest, depending on the discipline.
Funny you should mention inaccuracy in online databases. I was looking at my filly’s pedigree and noticed that Man o’ War was listed as having a QH dam foaled in the 50′s. I went in and fixed it, but someone else could have changed it back.
And even accurate reports from registries can be wrong. My filly’s grandsire is Grannus, a prolific sire of Hanoverian jumpers. There was a large scandal towards the end of his career (corresponding with genetic testing) that showed quite a few of his “offspring” were actually sired by another stallion. Plus, there have been questions regarding the accuracy of his damsire. So anyway, DNA testing is a wonderful thing!
Woochles, and what came out of all the Grannus drama?
blackfluffyhorses said, “Anyway, I digress, what I wanted to ask was, in considering your outcrosses for Tobiano breeding you didn’t mention the warmbloods.
There aren’t that many around (and like all breeding where colour becomes more important than type) there are some questionable ones, but also some nice ones around and they have size and substance. Maybe too much size for what you want?”
Warmbloods would be an excellent cross for many Tobianos. Unfortunately, only TBs and QHs are allowed as outcrosses in APHA. Size would not be a problem. My stallion is 16.1h and 1485 lbs. and one of my mares is 14.2h and 1100 lbs. There is as much diversity in APHA as there is in AQHA.
this post made me go down a rabbit trail sorry. Speaking of the “out of this mare and all that” With these “Mustang sporthorses that are being registered with some sporthorse reg.” they make their pedigrees but how the hell are they gonna know who the grand sire and all that is. And the stud’s description say they throw foals from pony to full size. I dont want to take the chance of breeding to a stallion and wanting a sporthorse and ending up with a pony! I love this blog I really want to show it to some people i know who want to breed (their horses) for all the wrong reasons.
mestenoridge.tripod.com
For the Future… does APHA have “hardship” registry?? As you know, ApHC technically does not allow any crosses but Arab/TB/QH, but they will accept WBX GELDINGS only, if they have color. They don’t contribute to the gene pool, so…. An acquaintance who produced a “Swapaloosa” (SWBXApp) was able to register him with ApHC (gelding). IT took a bit of arguing, indeed!! Then ApHC turned right around and used a picture of that horse in many of their ads, as did the Canadian Appaloosa registry! LOL
Sandy, not that I’m aware of. I believe that ended in 1987 (with APHA).
Question for anyone: Take an older AQHA mare that has been a working horse early and broodmare later in life. She has 6 registered foals – one futurity (??). She has never shown and has no “points”. She isn’t ready to retire and you start showing her in AQHA open shows. She starts earning points, what does this do to her offsprings pedigrees? Nothing? Does a dam need to do all her showing in her younger years?
Mathilde-
The horses (about 40 I think) in question had their registration changed and the Verband appointed an outside inspector to oversee the Klatte’s farm.
As for Grannus’ pedigree, the question was raised when someone did a photographis study. Apparently Odessa bears a remarkable resemblence to a Holsteiner stallion from the same farm as Ozean. But with dead horses there’s not much that can be done either way.
Norski said…
Question for anyone: Take an older AQHA mare that has been a working horse early and broodmare later in life. She has 6 registered foals – one futurity (??). She has never shown and has no “points”. She isn’t ready to retire and you start showing her in AQHA open shows. She starts earning points, what does this do to her offsprings pedigrees? Nothing? Does a dam need to do all her showing in her younger years?
A horse can show any time, and if they happen to earn points, it just adds to the credentials of the family and the horses in the immediate pedigree. This information is updated and kept current by AQHA, so her points will show up on any pedigree reports she is a part of.
Normally, people show the horses first when they’re young, then retire them for breeding, but if a horse can go back and earn points later, it’s not a bad thing. It’s just not very common.
Forthefuture said…”A horse can show anytime…”
Yup. Funny (annoying) story, though: The owner of my retired Appaloosa;’s sire took that National/Champion sire out of retirement (H/J Champion – and over fences, not just HUS) when ApHC instituted the class “Dressage Suitability.” (since changed to Hunter in Hand and judged equally incorrectly as was dressage suitability by ApHC judges). Horse was definitely a “sport horse” type, 16.2 h.h., racebred, etc. He qualified him for World/National show (can’t remember which it was) at the local (state) breed shows. Got to the National show, the “dressage suitability” judge was an ApHC judge (they canned use of AHSA judges when the AHSA judges picked the “wrong” horses, i.e., horses that actually WERE dressage suitable, instead of the usual stock horse types horses*), and of course, this totally dressage suitable, 100% sound stallion got the gate and was unplaced. Needless to say, the breeder was mightily pissed, but what can you do?
*and I know this is true, because the year before, I heard LOUD protests and complaints from people holding bulldog type horses that had qualified for ‘dressage suitability’ in the south and midwest and were fixtures on the show circuit – they were really angry that their stock horse halter types that demonstrated a nice jog – instead of a big trot – in dressage suitability were unplaced by the likes of Hilda Gurney and Hubert Rohrer…so the next year, back to Appy judges so the stock horses could win “dressage suitability.”(It’s not like there aren’t a ZILLION halter classes for stock horse types at the National/World shows, but they had to win DRESSAGE suitability too!) Sigh.
You can DNA from a dead/buried horse. The farm that I was working at wanted to register their One Gun daughter who at the time of her birth had too much white for the AQHA registry. They contacted her breeder; who just so happened to know where they buried the dam-mare, dug her up, used her jaw bone for DNA sample and sent it off.
Lotsa, lotsa moolah for that; but end result is that the mare and her offspring are registered with the AQHA, ’cause when we sent the paperwork in; the white allowed had become greater. The mare’s registered name; One Grand More.
I’m glad the owner’s did it; made my gelding registered, gives him some family background.
first dog – Why didn’t they register her with APHA if she had too much white for AQHA? Everyone would have had a documented pedigree that way, too. Lots of Mr Gun Smoke’s QH foals qualified for APHA registry (58 to be exact), and One Gun sired 7 QH cropouts that got APHA papers, and later, they would have “grandfathered” back in to AQHA after they lifted their white rule.
Sandy, the cutoff for registering hardship case horses with APHA was 1990, not 1987. My apologies.
For the future – no apology needed. I was just curious, since ApHC still allow “hardship” registry. LOL: Of course, APHA registrations are UP and ApHC registrations are down (there do seem to be people who like Appies with color and figure if they’re going to buy a solid QH, they should buy something AQHA, not ApHC, registered , so I guess ApHC is still willing to take anything that has spots just to try to keep those numbers up…..
Ahh Duh, sorry, I got carried away, I did now that about the allowed outcrosses. I think I got confused from looking at a couple of the examples you had up that looked distinctly “common” like you wouldn’t know what was in there – very much like a lot of the Pinto’s we see here. The Paints are usually very QH in type, though some are also basically coloured TB’s (my favorites)
blackfluffyhorses said, Ahh Duh, sorry, I got carried away, I did now that about the allowed outcrosses. I think I got confused from looking at a couple of the examples you had up that looked distinctly “common” like you wouldn’t know what was in there – very much like a lot of the Pinto’s we see here. The Paints are usually very QH in type, though some are also basically coloured TB’s (my favorites)
I posted quite a few “distinctly common” examples. And I’m with you, give me a TB with a Tobiano coat pattern any day!
These Paint horses NEED that kind of influence.
I think one of the most elegant types of horses out there is a big sweepy hunter tobi. Splashy overos and sabinos just don’t look as good english to me.
First Dog- did the mare not have quite enough white for APHA? I know that was an issue for Miss White Trash, but it didn’t occur to me that there’d be other horses in that same boat.
As for registering warmbloods, APHA only registers horses that have parents registered APHA, or have one APHA parent and one with AQHA or JC.
I’m not certain that Pinto will take them either. They register more body types, but do not allow horses with draft characteristics in.
Warmbloods have draft characteristics????
I’m not talking about pseudo lets cross a clydy with a arab and call it a warmblood. I’m talking european registered warmbloods such as the KWPN horses.
Pinto’s here however have do have a few differnt registries and they have different rules. Some definitely stipulate no draft influence, thats for sure.
fantastic post, super to see someone actually put this online.i hope a few people l know read it.l do know how to read a pedigee but know many many people who have no understanding of how it works.
Samtastic, some of the older generation still believe that somehow a mare will add more to the progeny than the sire will….the reason the mares line is used in cataloges etc is so that the buying public can actually assess how well a stallion crosses to certian broodmare sires etc. The reality when buy a stallion prospect is that he must be good enough to upgrade your mares(through their progeny) and his name will then become part of that pedigree for the next generation which in turn shows how he crossed with said broodmare etc…dunno if that makes sense to everyone
shellsbells said, “the reason the mares line is used in cataloges etc is so that the buying public can actually assess how well a stallion crosses to certian broodmare sires etc.”
This is not entirely true. The female family is highlighted in sale catalogs because that is the ONLY thing that separates the quality of horses in the catalog from each other. The sire is usually well known, as is the broodmare sire. It is the bottom 1/4 of a pedigree that will separate the quality ones from the mediocre ones.
A stallion will sire his share of mediocre foals, even from top mares. And not all daughters of a well known stallion are good performers or producers. Analyzing the female family of a pedigree is a good indication of the quality of the subject horse. The quality of the rest of the pedigree is usually already in place on most well bred horses, especially with QH and TB race horses going through a sale.
Definately true that stallions will sire their share of mediocre animals. Some more due to the unintelligent(greedy)
people who get their hands on the yearlings and after a quick return instead of examining what it is they have fully and being prepared to wait for it to mature etc. l probably would have to agree with you on what you say concerning pedigrees to a degree(geeze that looks dorky sorry). l also find it very interesting when searching through a mare line at whether it be the colts or the fillies born from that line…for example l have a mare whom in first 5 generations(tailfemale) theres 33 foals…of this 31 were winners 28 being city winners and 6 being black type inside the first 3 generations…while being a very good pedigree where it falls down is that of all those foals only 3 were colts only one stayed a colt and he was the only winner of the boys(badtempered rotter who was also successful at stud) my question of the pedigree is…would you buy a foal from it if you were looking for a colt who could win AND stand at stud after retiring…answer…NO:) it’s an interesting way of going through a pedigree though hey
Adding to my previous comment -
Most high end catalog sales will use the shown format in their catalogs. In that case, most of the horses going through a sale such as that have the quality pedigree (at least the top 3/4 of their pedigree). Any other sales, lower level sales, non-race sales, etc. don’t use this format. At those sales, one needs to be familiar with all the horses in the short pedigree given. These would be sales that don’t give a complete pedigree format, and you will find quite a few horses shown on one page, not just one. A lower level sale equals more risk for the buyer. This is not saying that the horses going through a lower level sale are not quality. The majority of the horses are decent, mediocre, maybe a token very well bred horse or two (although there might be “issues”), and some very low end horses in the sale, too. Before purchasing a horse at such a sale, your knowledge of pedigrees must be in place or at least, have someone with you who you can rely on for that information. Having an eye for good horseflesh goes without saying at any sale.
Most of the upper level sale companies want to be known for the quality of the horses going through their sales. These would include the major TB sale companies such as Fasig-Tipton, Keeneland, Ocala Breeders, CTS, Barretts, and QH/Paint companies like Professional Auction Services, Milt Bradford, Tattersalls, etc. It is up to the buyer to know what they’re looking at, and to pass over the horses with issues you can’t live with. The larger, more reputable sales will have a vet there that can provide x-rays (at the prospective buyer’s expense).
shellsbells – That is one of the characteristics of a pedigree to look for. If a female line, back as far as 6 generations hasn’t produced a sire, the colt selling is probably not the best stallion prospect. Likewise, a mare line that is known for producing siring stallions, might not be the best one to consider if the horse selling is a filly or mare. Yet, proven performance from either of these prospects might change all that. This is why breeding horses is not an exact science. There are MANY components of a pedigree to consider, depending on what the subject horse is to be used for. But we have many tools at our disposal to try to make educated choices to increase our chances for success.
yup agree with all that too, it can get to be an expensive hobby even at the lower end of the scale also. l wouldnt buy a TB without the xrays(feet as well as legs) and scoping etc,not that l intend buying one in the near future anyway as am busy with my ‘other’ horses’ it’s not a sport l have the money to play in very much but have dabbled and been more than happy with the outcome of a couple of animals l have bred and still own. If l breed it for a personal purpose it stays here forever and if it’s bred to be sold it’s sold on only when the right person comes along which means l’ve been breeding for approximately 15 years and have produced only 8 foals…sounds like a lousy amount to some people but l have this thing inside called morals…l am responsible for whom l have created …all doggies/cat are spayed or neutered and colts gelded as it takes a very special animal to make it to the breeding barn in my opinion(which causes untold arguments at times with other family members)but as l wear the costs…ultimately the choices are mine..will not breed willynilly …and yes l do breed purpose bred crosses from pure breds
thank you for taking the time to post this. Although the majority of horses I ride are grades and crosses, a handful have pedigrees that come in and now I know how to properly read them.
http://www.youngridersblog.com
Well, for amusing pedigrees, I always thought it was funny that my retired Appaloosa’s pedigree, through his maternal line, made him the great-grand-nephew of Seabiscuit. His great-grandsire was “Grog,” also sired by Hard Tack (as was Seabiscuit). So…. obviously a lot of other influences were at work because Hard Tack was downright dangerous in temperament and Seabiscuit “difficult” – my old boy, from age 4 when I acquired him to the present has always been the sweetest, most cooperative, trustworthy horse imaginable. My old boy has very slightly toe out conformation, for which he has always been appropriately trimmed and shod. I suppose that’s a legacy of the Seabiscuit line’s less than perfect legs. Fortunately, his breeder only sent to the track the horses with as close to perfect legs as possible, so my guy got to be a dressage horse. On his paternal side, he goes back through the Vikingson (TB) line and the line of War Don/Dawndee (racing Apps). My recollection is fuzzy, but I believe I traced that Vikingson line out as far back as a horse called, I think, Marketwise, who supposedly once beat Whirlaway in the Jockey Club Gold Cup back in the ’40s. A little distant – my guy NEVER showed any desire to run – he was always perfectly happy to stroll the trails or do his 10 and 20 m. circles in the dressage arena in a collected manner. ROFLOL Running? Waaaay too much effort – that’s for TBs, not Apps~!
Many QHs, Paints and Appaloosas trace to Man O’War, for example. Man O’War’s grandsire, Hastings, was also known to be pretty aggressive. By the time we get far enough away from the ones known to be difficult to handle, we’ve probably diluted that blood enough that it doesn’t have a lot of influence on our subject horse. The only time it would be influential is if there were many siblings to these horses in the same pedigree, which can intensify the influence.
Another example: My Paint stallion has 14 crosses to Man O’War (within the first 12 generations). That doesn’t necessarily mean the Man O’War blood in that pedigree has a lot of influence on my horse today. There are thousands of other ancestors that can offset that influence.
Re Vikingson (TB) – His grandsire was To Market, by Market Wise. To Market was also the broodmare sire of Dash For Cash. And Vikingson had decent influence on Quarter race horses.
Since Appies usually race QH distances, occasionally stretching out a bit longer than the QHs, I figured Vikingson probably was used a lot in QH breeding. I have a picture of him and he is posed like and built like a sprinter, i.e., a Quarter Horse. ;0) The usually “butt to the camera” QH pose – and there was a lot of butt on that horse,
My guy, on the other hand, though much larger than his maternal great-grandsire Grog, pretty much looks like a 16.2, lightly built TB with color. His personality, however, is pretty Appaloosa quirky, though always kind. (His one line that carries QH blood is through Cherry Bounce).
Needless to say, though his paternal great granddam, Dawndee, is a “Hall of Fame” Appaloosa and considered Foundation (I believe), my old fella is by no means a Foundation bred horse like my previous too Apps. Frankly, at the time I bought him, I was tired of looking at midgets and couldn’t afford a WAP or Confetti bred horse (1990).
Thank you for that post! I totally understand how horses with similar names can get confused. The Quarter Horse stallion you posted (Skip Star) is my mare’s sire. She shows it too. I get people all the time claiming they have a horse by Skipa Star when they actually have one by Skippa Star… and the two can’t really even be compared to each other. The Skippa Star horses just don’t have the same flare as the Skipa Star ones. I think breeders name horses similar like that on purpose. Skippa Star probably got away with a lot higher stud fee just because people thought it was the same horse.
Thanks, Nadika. Yes, there are MANY horses with similar names, with the only thing separating them are spacing, apostrophes, etc. And when you use those online free pedigree databases, some of them don’t allow for punctuation. There you have a problem of an incorrect pedigree. Many people don’t know the difference, either. Another problem is those unregistered QH mares in some pedigrees, where officially, AQHA added a number to their name, such as Betty 1, Betty 2, etc. So the mare that is really named just “Betty” will be entered, and she’s the wrong horse with a totally different pedigree. It’s a bad deal, where you have thousands of people using those sites and getting the wrong information. There are also QHs and TBs with the same name, yet are both in QH pedigrees. Another example that many are not aware of. There is a Lucky Bar TB and a Lucky Bar QH, foaled one year apart. Both were sires of QHs.
forthefutureofthebreed- The Lucky Bar horses caused a lot of confusion for me as well! I have a mare that we always thought was an appendix until we did some research and discovered she was sired by Lucky Bar the QH. Kind of a shock really.
Nadika – Yeah, the two Lucky Bars can be confusing. The TB one is the sire of Impressive, among others; the QH one wasn’t quite as popular, nor did he sire anyone really well known. He does have a couple of siring sons, and some producing daughters. He was a 1955 stallion; your mare must be very old or gone by now? At the time your mare would have been foaled, her papers would have been yellow if she were Appendix; white with blue trim if she’s regular registry.
Yep, that mare is gone now… When I owned her I didn’t know a whole lot about breeding/pedigrees. She was just my 4H and trail horse
You can’t ride papers! My dog has papers!
Let’s not forget the “grade horse registry” and the american riding pony registry…let’s make the “bread by idiots” registry! Then we’ll all have papers1