Conversations with the vampire…er, kill buyer
Oct 15 2007
So, yesterday was a typical Adventure in Horse Rescue. It began with the alarm going off at 4 AM and trying to get out the door to wake up the horses and feed them. As I opened the door, the barn cat rocketed in like a furry black missile, causing me to dive after him while simultaneously attempting to make no noise that would set off the three large dog-shaped alarm clocks and wake up the completely innocent non-rescuer type person sleeping on the couch.
Believe it or not, I actually accomplished this, and also accomplished getting 200 miles away to pay for the elusive Futlooseanfancyfree mare from last week’s auction, who had been spotted the previous night by an alert friend, who unfortunately was not an alert friend in possession of $350 or a paypal card. While I did not have any spare cash either, I did have a paypal card, and another rescuer kind enough to send money to it, so off I went to save the Way Too Nice To Can mare.
(I confess. I’m a bad rescuer. I don’t think all horses are equal and beautiful. I do think some horses are Too Nice To Can and for others it is unfortunate and cruel, and I wish they’d have been euthanized instead if there was no home for them, and I wish slaughter by the current methods was illegal, but I am not sorry they are out of the gene pool. Yes, I know, this is against the Rescue Oath and I’m going to Hell now, but at least I am honest about it.)
We finally got there and Ole’s assistant cheerfully led us to the pen where they’d separated out the mare. Only, it wasn’t the mare. It was a big fugly flaxen chestnut mare that looked nothing like our mare. “Oh shit,” she said, “I was afraid of that. We loaded up in the dark last night.
Argh! 4 hours drive and no mare? Did we just miss her by 10 hours? I began asking if there was any way at all to pull a mare off that truck once it got started. I said I could probably hop online and get someone to pick her up pretty much anywhere in the USA. We then began searching the pens of horses. In the last one we looked in, I saw a cluster of horses grouped around a plentiful supply of hay. I looked down and saw an old bowed tendon on the right front. Suffice it to say, I have never been so happy in my life to see a bowed tendon.
So here’s the lucky girl on the left. I had to back up in a 10 x 15 pen to take this picture, so it is an example of really bad photography, but you can still see what attracted us to her. This is a big mare with a hip like a Quarter Horse, big bones, big feet and deep through the heart. Her neck is longer than it looks in the pic, and her head isn’t fancy but she is still a super mare and (also important) a multiple race winner with a sweet and friendly disposition. She is just one that fell through the cracks – she got traded around a bunch lately and wound up in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I actually had a nice chat with the buyer. He says he tries to resell the ones that ride well and he works with various other resellers to do that – he has guys in various cities who put riding time on horses, fatten them up and try to resell for a profit. He did, however, and listen up, all of you crossbred breeders who think I am picking on them, say that “if a mare don’t have papers, I can her.” Well, yes. That is what most of these guys do. Because, for the one millionth time, there is NOWHERE NEAR the market for these horses that the delusional crossbred “sport horse” breeders seem to believe there is. Most people want to buy a good broke AQHA or Paint gelding. That is the VAST MAJORITY of the low end, under $2500, market. I don’t mean “most people at YOUR barn.” I mean most people who buy from auctions and horse dealers. So those of you who think your 1/4 Friesian, 1/4 Clydesdale, 1/4 Arabian and 1/4 TB is special, just so you know, you better keep her forever because Mr. Kill Buyer does not think so. A fugly AQHA mare with AQHA papers is much more likely to get on the trailer to the resale-for-riding guy than your part-draft “sport horse” is.
Now I’m going to put forth an opinion that may be unpopular (ha ha, ’cause that never happens here!) Ole or any other dealer who sells some to slaughter is not the villain here. The villain here, in this particular case, is a girl named Dawn. Dawn had this mare last, according to her papers.
Dawn has big, round, perky handwriting. It’s the handwriting of a young girl. She’s probably under 25, if not under 21. Dawn had written a note on the pen at Enumclaw to say that this mare rides well, trail rides, goes english, blah blah. Well, you know what Dawn? You are full of shit. This mare isn’t riding sound. I can see it in the hind end when she walks. You knew that. Now, you only owned her for two months so maybe the person who sold her to you lied to you, too, but I don’t care. This nice mare was pushed on a floodtide of lies down the wrong path and you, Dawn, had the chance to change that path. A little time and effort and a good pic on DreamHorse, and she would have had a broodmare home. Or you could have listed her with a rescue and tried to place her as a companion. But I guess that was too much work for you, Dawn, or maybe you just HAD to have her gone and HAD to have your $200 (shit, less than that, the auction took their cut), because you left her at the auction with no reserve and she was in the ring for maybe 30 seconds and went straight to the dealer. She didn’t have a mark on her at the sale; now she has numerous little bites and scrapes from being thrown in a trailer with strange horses and then out in that pen. You, Dawn, are the one who sucks here. Slaughter isn’t the problem, not really. It’s irresponsible, cheap, heartless, careless and/or just plain ignorant ownership that is the problem.
Or as I like to say, the slaughter buyer is merely the garbageman. He is not the one who put the horse out with the trash.
Thanks to Marilyn of High Desert Equine Rescue in California, who fronted the cash to make sure this mare didn’t become a steak. My understanding is the mare’s breeder wants her back and we will be coordinating that today. I have another interested party if he doesn’t want her.
342 comments to “Conversations with the vampire…er, kill buyer”
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Mary Ann,
I think that at some point in the future, *if* the breeders of fuglies gave it up, there might be “too many” top quality horses, eventually. But right now, those horses, especially the ones that are good to breed from, are rare. Your average horseperson in the US might never have a chance to own one, at least not in its performance/breeding prime. The people in the high echelons can and do spend months or years looking for “the right horse.”
But I don’t want horses to become something only for the rich. I just want the ignoramuses who can’t see what’s in front of them to get out of the breeding and owning of horses. This includes plenty of rich people, BTW!
Ann, it will never happen (too many top quality horses). First of all, if only responsible breeders were breeding horses, there would still be culls from those breeding programs. Responsible breeders know that its imperative to have a strict culling process in their program, or improvement can’t take place. Not every horse produced by a responsible breeder will be of exceptional quality. But I can assure you that the culls from a top breeder are still much better quality than the best horses produced by a BYB. THOSE are the horses that should be attractive to the people who want to purchase a horse for trail riding, companionship, or whatever. And there would be plenty to go around. If one were to just count the retired racehorses needing a good home, there would be enough horses for everyone who wanted one.
BTW –
I just ran across this page: http://home.comcast.net/~cothfoals2008/ which has photos of mares owned by various people on the COTH boards, and the stallions they are bred to. As a group, these are very high-quality horses; there are some exceptions, but most are really nice. Of course this is biased towards “true” sport horses, the WB and TB end of things.
This (again with some exceptions) is what I mean by “high quality” breeding stock. And yes, I’d take a cull from most of them!
Yes, a lot of horses DO outlive their riding days- but then the ones with responsible owners keep/retire them themselves. Doesn’t change the fact that almost no one is *looking* for companion only horses. Have you ever tried to place a “companion” horse? If not, maybe you don’t realize just how hard they are to adopt out.
the belief that a trail horse is a cheap, less than perfect and “lesser quality” horse is a misnomer. i can tell you there a ton of people who routinely pay TOP DOLLAR for horses that they have no intention of ever showing. these are usually successful middle aged people who are getting into riding for the first time or back into riding afer a long break. ive sold or aided in selling horses that were bought to be a trusted friend, pleasure horse and steady trail horse for ten grand or more. many people might be rather shocked to find out how many retired world show horses are hacking the trails. and im not talking old horses either, many are sold after two, three or four years of international level showing as young horses. a couple years ago i help my old boss present her World Champion Morgan horse (halter, trail, western pleasure) she was selling. the person who bought him paid a large sum of money but had NO intention of ever showing him. she wanted a PROVEN, BROKE and “perfectly” CONFORMED horse that was worth every dime she paid for him. he was only 6years old when sold. infact ALL of the show morgans put in their time on the trail and when sold more than half of them never showed again but kept on working as a rock steady trail horse. most of them were less than 10 years old when they were sold to pleaure/trail homes and not because they were “retired”, but only because thats what the buyer wanted to do.
the thing is when people breed “just trail horses” it is usually assocated with low quality and grade horses. the fact is there is no need to “lower standards” for trail horses, none at all. if people breed the best mares they can buy to excellent quality stallions they will produce great COMPETATIVE horses. the fact is competative-use horses do sell for more money because the animal is proven to have “extra value”. however greener horses and horses that maybe just dont show so well or havent had a large bank roll behind them dont often get the “show credits” needed to up their prices. the base price for well broke “show quality” horses but lacks the “credits” should still be relatively fetching solid and respectable prices. just a few years back a nice well broke, sane, sound,well conformed gelding that was solid on the trails but with no show record was still bringing 3500-6500 dollars.
breeders dont need to breed to Briar or Sunny Dee Bars or Magnum Psych to produce excellent foals. but they do need to breed to stallions that have proven THEMSELF as working/showing horses. the resulting offspring of a quality more to a quality stallion will result on “show quality” offspring (most of the time). show quality babies with solid conformation should still fetch respectable prices. the cost of showing and MAKING a show horse is counter productive to profit. but a nicely broke young horse with show quality conformation can (and often will) sell as a trail/pleasure horse to buys who want a “great quality horse” and are willing to pay for it. breeders will actually make MORE money selling show quality trail broke horse as apposed to proven show horses. “trail horse” doesnt mean lower-quality, didnt make the grade, lesser or not as fancy. but asshat BYB have turned the words “trail horse” into a phrase that means CHEAP, low end and “less”.
in my experience the ONLY actual difference between a horse that is “just a trail horse” and a “competative/show horse” is that “just a trail horse” has just never been shown! YES “trail horses” can and should bring hansom prices because they SHOULD be bred as working, competative or show horses. the horses that dont GET shown/compete/whatever but end up as trail horses are not “less” in any way, they just ended up in another career. again there are a TON of top end show horses out their that are working as the very best trail horses money can buy. being a show horse does automaticly mean a horse is unsuited for the trail at all. training, handling, stabling and the RIDER has a hell of a lot more to do with suitablity on the trail than “show breeding” does. its not uncommon for people who show a lot to be uncomfortable on the trail, thus the horse becomes nervice. some the BEST horses i have every ridden on the trail/camping have been top end show horses.
FYI, the breeder I spoke of was breeding Morgans.
The dressage people looking don’t care if the horse is only registered with the Pink and Purple Paintaloosa Registry, if it’s quality they’re interested. However, I can tell you they’re not looking at draft crosses or strange mixes for the most part as they know that’s not where they’re the most likely to find what they’re looking for.
And just in case you think I’m a snob…my own two are an ancient, grade Quarter Horse and a PMU rescue mare. Neither of them will ever be top athletes, but I wouldn’t trade the world for them.
Got no chrome:
You left out a key part of my quote…
Pedigree/papers and conformation mean SQUAT if you are rescuing lawn ornaments!
Trust me I am plenty educated on breeding, pedigree and conformation. I’ve spent years on researching and learning but I don’t go passing myself off as an expert.
I just get sick of the attitude that a horse that sells for under $1,000 is backyard crap.
As far as RUDE comments go, rude, derogatory, arrogant comments are the main reason I chose to post here. I’m sick of the AQHA bashing and people bashing!
The poor horse market is putting some legitimate, small to mid sized, good breeders out of business. The hobby BYB doesn’t care about making money, they only care about a cute foal on the ground in the spring.
barnibus said…
“trail horse” doesnt mean lower-quality, didnt make the grade, lesser or not as fancy. but asshat BYB have turned the words “trail horse” into a phrase that means CHEAP, low end and “less”.
Yes! My point exactly.
All you stock horse people need to shut up. Forthefutureofthebreed, you seem to know about stock horses, but you have proven time and time again that you know jack about any other breed. And the other commenter is right, if you really wanted to educate people you wouldn’t be so damn arrogant. It is one thing to have superior knowledge, it is another entirely to be pretentious and insulting. Stephen Hawking, one of the most renowned physicists of our time is famous for one thing above all…his simple, easily understood explanations to laypeople. Note, he doesn’t call them idiots…and compared to his intellect, we are idiots…but in the interest of EDUCATION he puts things in easily understood terms. If you can’t DO that, you can’t teach…and you’re just an arrogant bitch who enjoys feeling superior. Which is fine, but don’t pretend to be anything but, or we will jump on you.
World class means world class. That means shows internationally. For all you ignorant stock horse breeders, that means things like grand prix jumping, GP dressage, the international 100-day tests for stallions in Europe, the Egyptian Arabian stallion inspections in EGYPT…not the stupid AMERICAN stock horse show, …no matter if you call it the “worlds” or not. Most Canadian breeders don’t even bring stock to that show!
A world class horse isn’t a horse that showed at some National show that was CALLED “worlds” it is a horse that has actually been shown AROUND THE WORLD. That means outside the US idiots.
^, oh, and in case anyone was confused, I AM an arrogant bitch, and I’ve NEVER pretended to be anything else. I don’t give a CRAP about educating idiots, I enjoy feeling superior.
Oh. I HATE IT when I have written a post and then it gets lost in transit. You’d think I’d learn to type it all in notepad and then copy it into the browser.
Reading through these posts this morning, I got the feeling some of you out there who have “show horses” took offense at one of my posts where I spoke of trail vs. show horses. I just wanted to restate that I freely admit that there are many show horses out there who are NOT kept in 12×12 stalls, who ARE ridden on trails, and who are NOT insane. These are most often the horses who belong to that other type of “show owner” – the ones who actually enjoy their HORSE. (you’ll remember I spoke also about the owners who had nothing to do with their horses except call ahead, climb aboard, take the lesson / school the horse, and climb back off and zip away to who cares where.) I don’t have a problem with show horses or some show owners, I have a problem with the show owners who forget that their horse is a living, thinking creature and turn them into neurotic, unhappy (BUT THEY’RE CLEAN!) animals who are only pulled out of their stalls to school or show.
I have a big problem with the prohibitive cost of showing at the breed level, which does restrict it to the people who have lots of extra money and time. There actually ARE people out there (not only FTFOTB) who have very nice stallions or very nice mares, who do NOT have the money to promote their horse(s) in the show world. Some of these people actually DO have horses who could compete successfully at the world levels – if the owner a) gave a shit about showing, b) could afford it, or c) sold the horse. Not all people have horses to make money. Some of these people breed their very nice animals and DO sell the resultant foals locally in their area for “cheap” and a lot of them go as trail horses. I have a friend who has been in the TWH show life for over 30 years. She has a stallion whom she has ridden to many state championships over the years. She has NOT taken him to the World show, because of the prohibitive cost and the fact that their business at home doesn’t allow for them to be gone such a distance for such a length of time. She has had offers of $30,000 to over $50,000 for this horse, but will not sell him. She couldn’t replace him easily…. he’s got a superb temperament, she trail rides him regularly (all around the region) and if you didn’t know him, you’d never guess he was a stallion. He’s been in parades, expos, etc. etc. She breeds him to local mares (for a stud fee that seems ridiculously low to me, due to his achievements) and many of the local / regional “trail riders” have horses by him. And, hey – guess what… they are all level headed, sane, nice horses. Some of his foals DO show, successfully – but a lot of them will never see the inside of a state or regional level show arena, just because the owners don’t want the headache of showing, they want the pleasure and relaxation of PLEASURE riding – and where better to pleasure ride than out in the woods on a trail, listening to birds and seeing the occasional deer, bunny, fox. I have to admit, I’m not a huge fan of TWH (I actually find their flat walk is uncomfortable enough to offset the smoothness of their faster gaits.), but I have been nothing but impressed with the easy temperament of about 95% of the TWH I have seen go through her barn.
It’s also VERY easy to forget that there are still a LOT of people out there who are not utilizing the internet to market their horses. There are also a lot of people breeding very good “using horses” (the stock breeds) who look at the show world as useless and a waste of money.
Anyway – I am not for indiscriminate breeding. I agree wholeheartedly with many of the things that Fugly says in her posts.
hcit said, “Trust me I am plenty educated on breeding, pedigree and conformation. I’ve spent years on researching and learning but I don’t go passing myself off as an expert.”
IF you know what you’re doing, and have absorbed well what you have spent years on, then you can, by all means, pass yourself off as an expert on the subject. And, I feel you are obligated to share what you have learned, if you know your stuff. Usually, I have found that many people BELIEVE they know what they’re doing, but in reality, they don’t know what they think they know. And you never see them sharing any information that would be a benefit to others.
sarcastabitch said…
^, oh, and in case anyone was confused, I AM an arrogant bitch, and I’ve NEVER pretended to be anything else. I don’t give a CRAP about educating idiots, I enjoy feeling superior.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
lol. I’ve got to admire someone who can admit they are a bitch. But, you know, if you were a man, you’d simply be powerful or self-confident.
I think most people enjoy feeling superior….. it’s when someone points out that they’re not that they get their feathers ruffled.
sarcastabitch said…
All you stock horse people need to shut up. Forthefutureofthebreed, you seem to know about stock horses, but you have proven time and time again that you know jack about any other breed.
I’ve never pretended to know anything about any other breeds other than the ones I’ve studied and owned. That is limited to 3 breeds, and I keep it that way on purpose. It’s much too difficult to keep track of all breeds where one can’t expect to be proficient at any of them when they can be extremely well-versed on just a couple.
So you hate stock horses (and obviously, Americans). Everyone is entitled to their likes and dislikes. In the true meaning of the words, “world class”, you are correct. But things get used and abused, and become accepted terminology, much as we dislike some of it. Stock horse people and world class Warmblood people couldn’t be more different. There ARE going to be differences of opinions, likes and dislikes, and opposing opinions.
For example, I hate the word “stud” to mean a “stallion”. But it’s use is so widespread there’s no changing it. And so is the term, “world class” to describe a stock horse of the quality capable of competing at its World breed show.
lol. I’ve got to admire someone who can admit they are a bitch. But, you know, if you were a man, you’d simply be powerful or self-confident.
Story of my life. In management you got two choices, “the bitch” or “the slut”. I’m not pretty enough to be “the slut”.
Also, I am wrong a lot, and got used to humiliation early in life. I only feel superior about things until I get proven wrong.
So you hate stock horses (and obviously, Americans).
I don’t hate Americans or stock horses. Don’t put words in my mouth, cow.
^
To be clear, what I hate is when some small-time organisation arbitrarily decides that it is a “world” competition…when it very clearly is a National competition…like the “World Series” of baseball…I mean, a true world competition would have to include latin American countries and Japan, ’cause that’s some serious baseball getting played there.
Actually, if you knew anything about the World shows (AQHA, APHA), you would find that the competition IS international. There are many competitors who travel from other countries to compete.
There are many competitors who travel from other countries to compete.
Uh huh. Thank you for that eloquent correction. Why don’t you educate me as to the percentages?
Uh huh. Thank you for that eloquent correction. Why don’t you educate me as to the percentages?
I can find 55 horses/exhibitors from countries other than the US for 2006, but that doesn’t include Italy, Germany, and any South American countries. If you would like more information, you can call AQHA at 806-376-4811, or APHA at 817-834-2742. The issues of their breed magazines usually highlight the international competitors in their World Show results issues.
One major event that gets a lot of foreign competition is reining.
sarcastabitch said…
And the other commenter is right, if you really wanted to educate people you wouldn’t be so damn arrogant. It is one thing to have superior knowledge, it is another entirely to be pretentious and insulting.
4horsesandholding said…
Not all people have horses to make money. Some of these people breed their very nice animals and DO sell the resultant foals locally in their area for “cheap” and a lot of them go as trail horses.
barnibus said…
in my experience the ONLY actual difference between a horse that is “just a trail horse” and a “competative/show horse” is that “just a trail horse” has just never been shown! YES “trail horses” can and should bring hansom prices because they SHOULD be bred as working, competative or show horses.
sally here: Thanks for that! You guys rock.
“Ann said…
BTW –
I just ran across this page: http://home.comcast.net/~cothfoals2008/ which has photos of mares owned by various people on the COTH boards, and the stallions they are bred to. As a group, these are very high-quality horses; there are some exceptions, but most are really nice. Of course this is biased towards “true” sport horses, the WB and TB end of things.
This (again with some exceptions) is what I mean by “high quality” breeding stock. And yes, I’d take a cull from most of them!”
That is interesting Ann, but I would not drag home ONE of those horses or their foals. They do not interest me in the least.
I do not think those horse are attractive or useful for my life style at all. Having been around the dressage and hunter jumper folks, I was not impressed. Many are so over horsed they cannot ride their horses outside, or with another horse in a 100×200 indoor.
Really the horse world is a very diverse one and while the DQ’s think EVERYONE looks up to them, some of us could really care less. We don’t ride stock horses because we don’t know better or cannot afford a warmblood, we ride stock horses because we like them.
>>>>Dontyouridenofuglyhorse said…
We don’t ride stock horses because we don’t know better or cannot afford a warmblood, we ride stock horses because we like them.
October 17, 2007 8:00 AM< <<<<
Amen.
Given the choice between Larry’s $500 colt and Mr. Halter Horse’s $50,000 big-name pedigree colt with f-ed up legs, I’d choose Larry’s. I don’t even have to guess which will be sound in 5 years.
If it weren’t for people who bred crossbreds most breeds wouldn’t be here today.
People who are convinced of the value of their breeding programs ought to realize that there are thousands of people who THINK that the horses they are breeding are great examples of the breed. There are hundreds of people who KNOW that the horses they are breeding are great examples of the breed.
Devil’s_Advocate said…
Given the choice between Larry’s $500 colt and Mr. Halter Horse’s $50,000 big-name pedigree colt with f-ed up legs, I’d choose Larry’s. I don’t even have to guess which will be sound in 5 years.
That would be a no-brainer. A piece of shit, unsound halter horse isn’t worth $50,000. I’d choose Larry’s colt if those were the only two choices, too. Fortunately for us, those two aren’t the only options.
>>>>Dontyouridenofuglyhorse said…
We don’t ride stock horses because we don’t know better or cannot afford a warmblood, we ride stock horses because we like them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Wait, did I say that everyone would love these horses? Or that stock horses are bad?
I, as a huntseat rider, am interested in horses who look like these ones because they are well-conformed for what I might ask them to do. But the main point was to say, “Here are what good, small scale breeders (mostly) in a particular discipline are breeding.” You’ll see some of the same basic qualities — like nice legs, good shoulders etc. — in good, small scale stock horses.
As a matter of fact, I’d love to see an equivalent page of breeding pairs from the stock horse would — anyone who knows that world want to post a URL?
BTW — I am well aware of people in huntseat/eventing being overmounted on big strong hot horses. I have seen some horse-rider combinations at events that make me cringe, that are serious accidents just waiting to happen. And I *do* think not taking temperament into account is hurting that segment of the horse world. I’m a fairly timid rider with a preference for smallish, calm horses, so a big WB wouldn’t suit me, but something that looks like one but is 15 hands, and has a good mind, would make me happy. (the_farmers_wife has recommended Sport Morgans… if the time ever comes, I certainly will look at them.)
Many are so over horsed they cannot ride their horses outside, or with another horse in a 100×200 indoor.
This may be true, but it isn’t endemic to H/J…how many WP princesses do you see that are WAY WAY WAY overmounted, and the only reason their horse does anything even CLOSE to a walk-jog-lope is because it’s wearing a ridiculous bit with 4″ shanks and the rider has spurs? How about 9 year olds riding mommy’s barrel horse and just barely staying in the seat? And the 13 year old riding a PERFECT finished reiner that is obviously just humoring her attemps to get through the pattern?
In my opinion, those combos are totally on par with overmounted H/J kids, and Dressage Queens who worried more about how much the horse cost to import than ever getting past Training I.
It’s a good point in H/J, but I’ve seen my share of overmounting in the stock horse world too.
I can argue in support of both breeding the top quality warmbloods AND breeding a well bred, well conformed Quarter Horse. While the market is larger for the latter, the prices are higher for the former. Breeding either is just fine. What I object to is breeding crappy warmbloods and/or Quarter Horses and then failing to train them appropriately to their age and therefore pretty much dooming them. I’ve said this a million times and some people still don’t get it. I don’t think there is no place for a colt that sells for $2000. I think that’s fine. A lot of the market is looking for the $2000 colt or the $4000 good broke riding horse. My objection is to breeding the $200 colt or the $400 broke riding horse. The ultra low end of the market is beyond glutted and we need to stop adding to it.
If you haven’t sold a horse all year but you still think your horses are better than $400, take one to an auction and see how high it goes. You can no sale. Just do it to see. If you can’t sell ANYTHING, you are most likely overpricing, undertraining or delusional about your horses’ value. The good breeders I know are selling horses, even in this economy.
I think it’s the jumping that freaks people out about over-mounting in H/J/E … especially in eventing, where the cross-country jumps are solid and if you hit one, it’s going to hurt. Of course, for the higher levels people argue that they *need* a forward horse, but there are horses out there who are forward and calm at the same time… They are worth their weight in gold.
I’ve seen scary stuff, like a young teen on a huge, hot WB that she could not manage to get through an Intro A (basic walk-trot) dressage test. Her mother found everything else to blame for her daughter’s poor ride (the weather, the judge, the other competitors, the clouds in the sky), and was clearly not considering that this horse was just way too much horse for the girl.
I do like a horse with a bit of go, but one who’s responsive when I ask it to slow down!
“A piece of shit, unsound halter horse isn’t worth $50,000.”
Ah, so true. But they DO sell for that much, some more, some less. Breeders ARE breeding horses with toothpick legs which can’t hold up, and are marketing and selling these horses as World Class horses (sorry sarcastabitch) and they ARE placing in the shows. There are big name, successful breeders who are churning out more crap than the foal that Larry posted about and they typically churn them out by the bucketfulls. Where do those useless culls go? A lot of them won’t even be sound to ride.
I was surprised that Larry would post, on this site especially, the pictures of those horses in junk filled pastures. This isn’t the site to advertise your horsebreeding projects and expect to escape unscathed.
Devil’s Advocate – I am not seeing that kind of money for halter horses anymore, especially HYPP positive ones. There are a few breeders who still breed the positive horses, but I think all the hoopla over HYPP has hurt them a bit. I’m seeing many HYPP positive horses for sale cheap these days – horses who otherwise look like they might be decent enough horses if they didn’t carry that defect. You couldn’t touch those horses a few years ago. I also realize that many of these cheap horses for sale won’t cut it in serious competition, either, so there you go. But we’re just not seeing the big prices (for Paints or QHs), even at their world show sales.
The trend is heading back to the all-around horses, which I am thrilled about. Maybe we’ll see more conformationally correct, form to function horses in the near future.
and that would be ideal.
sarcastabitch said…
To be clear, what I hate is when some small-time organisation arbitrarily decides that it is a “world” competition…when it very clearly is a National competition…like the “World Series” of baseball…I mean, a true world competition would have to include latin American countries and Japan, ’cause that’s some serious baseball getting played there.
APHA’s World Show used to be called the National Show, until it became international in scope.
forthefutureofthebreed said…
Ann, it will never happen (too many top quality horses). First of all, if only responsible breeders were breeding horses, there would still be culls from those breeding programs.
And in Paints, those culls include the solid breds, a lot of whom have everything BUT the spot. APHA is at least finally getting on the ball by having solid bred classes, so hopefully that will trickle down more to the smaller shows. Our horses are at least TCF nominated so they can be shown in futurities until they’re 4, regardless of color.
As for trail horses, I think showing your horse a variety of environments, including riding on the beach and on the trail only helps them in the show ring. It helps their all-around confidence. That, and it’s nice to be able to put all the skills I drill on for Trail classes to use on actual honest-to-god trails
And to Sarcasticbitch:
Look, it’s not like the APHA and AQHA World Shows and registries are closed to competitors from other countries.
From and article on APHA’s site about this last year’s world show:
“More about APHA
Currently, American Paint Horses are being registered at APHA’s Forth
Worth, Texas, headquarters at a rate of about 40,000 horses each
year. APHA has registered nearly 900,000 horses in 49 nations and
territories since it was founded 45 years ago, and now serves
approximately 100,000 active members around the world. Among its many activities, APHA works to preserve bloodlines and maintain the
outstanding characteristics of the American Paint Horse breed.”
You have to keep in mind that the American Stock horse breeds and a lot of the sports they contend in are much YOUNGER than traditional breeds and sports from out of Europe. They’re catching on, though. It’s just going to take awhile for things to equalize out, so cool your jets.
In response to Ann.
I certainly see where you are coming from; it can be quite terrifying to see a tiny rider perched up on a giant runaway.
However, from the other side, I am that tiny rider on the runaway. My appendix is a big-barreled 16 hands and I am 5’1 and under 100 pounds. After 2 years of consistent quality schooling, we still have days where mothers want to pull their kids out of the arena when we canter. Why do I continue to try with a forward and unpredictable horse? I purchased this mare for 6500, with her showing experience and personality on the ground she would have easily sold for 3 times that if she were quiet under saddle.
Because she is so hot, I got the opportunity to find a proven training level eventer with the capability to go through intermediate for under 10k (how many people can say that).
Most riders who are mismatched want the prestige of saying they ride a big warmblood worth X amount or that they are BN riding an ex-advanced horse. These riders have a hot large horse for the wrong reasons but not all of us are being irresponsible. Some of us just could not resist the opportunity to own an incredible horse
(http://silverleprichuan.deviantart.com/art/3-3-fence-ID-62836066).
http://www.youngridersblog.com
oh, I love that photo! Clearly that’s a great rider on a great horse (even if slightly nutty.)
I would guess, given the attitude of the mother of the rider I saw, that this girl was not, in fact, capable of getting a good ride out of the horse. He was just too much for her. (Or, well, he might be one of those who is perfectly well-behaved at home, and a sh*tface at a show, or who knows what else.) It was scary in any case… I was happy she wasn’t trying to ride him over jumps!
The mare I rode at that same show was apparently quite a handful when she was young. And she’s still not a beginner’s horse… yet she was such a good girl there (except for one canter when she should have been trotting, because, well, she’d rather go fast…)
I have been an every day lurker here but as of today, I am no longer going to come to this site. Yes it is educating and had alot of potential to help people, but it has become a hate filled place with people spewing hate over and over and its become a not so very nice place to be. Even if I agree with most of it (and I do), its just that this world has become so negative. So much hate. Its nice to hear good things not a ongoing daily spewing of hate and negativity nonstop. Its very depressing.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/moms+spy
this is my mare’s pedigree, is there anyone that knows TB’s that can tell me anything about her or her quality? run of the mill? worth anything for breeding? She’s a nice mare, great build I think, had a hard life thou, by the looks of it
>>>>>Mary Ann said… The glut is not because there are too many BYB horses.< <<<<
>>>>HorsePoor responded…Stupid statement< <<.
>>>oh_for_crying_out_loud said…I don’t believe that someone breeding quality animals with bright futures, decent proven pedigrees and exemplary conformation should stop breeding< <<
>>Mary Ann came back with…BYB = small operation. Sorry I lost you. Most here are BYB in that they are small, most likely not making a profit.< <
>4thehorses said…In part, Maryann is right. Although certainly contributing to the problem, I think that market breeders are the main problem. Market breeders do not = responsible breeders. You look at QH production breeders and TB market breeders …are putting just HUGE numbers of horses on the ground annually. I worked for a BYB once and she beat the big local market breeder in the show ring every time, the market breeder was always second place. She was putting about 4 foals on the ground annually, and the market breeder about 70
Sorry about that last non- post, not enough sleep this week. MAny have voiced some of my thoughts but here goes:
[aside to Ursula: if Mom's Spy came from S. Dakota please GBTM-- I think I know this mare!!]
There’s a grain of truth in most of these comments, can’t help but smile as it seems many posts here are made in the hope someone will praise the poster as fount-of-all-wisdom-with-THE-answer
Poor dears, don’t they know I have all the answers?LOL!
Anyway…
IMO–NO breeder, no matter how smart talented or well-intentioned can predict where any horse will spend or end its life, no matter how well-bred or trained. . Once the product of our program leaves our hands real life happens–and as we all know tragedy is more likely to ensue than World Class acclaim. AND they all die, some with more dignity than others. Breeding in limited numbers for specific placement with extensive preparation / training prior to sale is one preventive measure that can be taken. No matter the breed, market overproduction by large AND small breeders combined with undertraiing and out-grown-threir-usefulness or damaged-due-to- mishandling/poor horsekeeping is the source of most auction-bound horses.
The horses with the best chances are being produced by individuals with a keen eye and innate ‘knack’ for picking prospective mates, and who also can ‘train up a youngster in the way it should go’. Good bllodlines don’t necessarily nick well. I ‘rescued’ a little mare by a WP World Champion out of ful sister to a Halter champion whose sister is a16+HH high level H_J competitor. but my mare is barely 14:3 at seven years and built like a saddlebred with no neck–but she’s got that flat WP trot, maybe I should breed her NOT!
A couple years ago I was approached by my farrier–was I interested in an aged mare from a high-profile Arabian breeder–no longer breed-able or rideable, they didn’t want to put her down and wanted to keepher. After a moments incredulity I told him that this operation with ads in the back cover of the breed publication, that dealt in five-six-and-seven figure horses, ought to at lest have the class to put down their mare if they couldn’t bring themselves to spend a little to keep her to her natural end. ( BTW I DID take a retiree 28-yr old paperless App who had spent her life hauling some yahoo’s butt up and down the Monongahela River hills–poor thing couldn’t believe we would feed her and not catch and use her!! She gave a few pony rides to kids at a local fair –teh look of wonderment on this mare’s face when the kids petted her had to be seen to be believed– and died peacefully a year later.)
IMO the source of the problem lies with those who still view the horse as a) commodity or get-rich-quick-scheme b) source of salve to one’s own prestige or self-image c) for various reasons hold defective views of their needs quality and value as individuals (JMO this includes the PETA-types as well as hoarders and abusers ) There’s room for all here,
Horses live and exist on the same bell curve of averages as the rest of us–there’s the great mediocre middle wherein are classed approximately 80% of all individuals, the 10% total rejects and 10% above average.
If it weren’t for the mediocre middle the gene pool wouldn’t be big enough to guarantee perpetuation. The key lies in having access to the right mate for each individual. With good planning and lots of luck the’mediocre middle’ will gradually progress upward and the best will get even better. Most times however all you get is more mediocre.
As regards education–effective education requires the receiving mind to be open. Denial is a wonderful thing–allows one to continue one’s erroneous course unaltered.
BTW just getting stuff out in the open helps: IIRC the FranFarmer / Foundation Appaloosa Ranch debacle was one of the origins leading to this particular digression on the POV of ‘vampires’…. Mayhap to please you to know that thanks to the dissemination of info originating on this year’s FAR crisis (yes this has been going on for years) there may just be a permanent resolution. Legal constraints prohibit more comment.
Regarding FHOTH’s rescue mare– Although a little disappointed that she’s going to be a broodmare interestingly that mare traces to both root- sire (Nearco) and dam lines of Secretariat ( Somethingroyal ). She is one of those individuals IMO that, bred to the right mate, might carry the potential to produce a ‘sport’ …a horse that breaks the mold by being greater than the sum of his/her parts. However the law of averages being what it is her best match may never be made. Who’s to say whether her best match lies in another breed carrying TB lines or within the JC book itself?
Anyway I just got a call one of the ^*(&&!!!@ ponies got into the neighbor’s corn crib …. back to lurking for now
Mary Ann said: “Was hoping she was going into a rehab program instead of a breeding program.” great point! she’s not a bad looking mare, and her pedigree is nice, but in all honesty, in this day and age, with the horse population being what it is, and the slaughter issue such a hot button issue, i think every person looking to breed needs to take a good honest look at their horse and ask themselves if there is a better horse out there already producing. if the answer is yes, then at this time, i’d hold off on the breeding. it sounds like this mare has fallen onto some tough times, and she sure looks like she could benefit from some good care. she also sounds as if she has some old injuries? instead of thinking of breeding her, why not give this girl a good home, and a good life? there are plenty of babies on the ground now that can’t find homes…..(i was just at a sale where some guy brought in a pen of 25 of them….and there were plenty more that went through that day.) no one’s going to miss any babies if this mare isn’t bred. i think it’s great that she was rescued, though.
Marte’s girl:
Yes, Mom’s Spy is from SD – she’s bred to a gorgeous appaloosa stallion Sullys Black Jewel for 2008 baby – I bought her not knowing if she was bred for sure and she is, we ultrasounded her in begin of June.