The State of the Industry
Oct 01 2007
The Horse magazine put up a great article called The State of the Industry some time back and it was mentioned in the comments but I do not think everybody saw it, so I’m going to give you a link now.
The State of the Industry
Anybody who thinks they can breed low end horses and make money needs to read this. It is the absolute truth about how things are right now.
152 comments to “The State of the Industry”
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grullotobi said…
It’s easy to post on a blog how all ‘BYB’ need to STOP breeding their mediocre horses, but everyone’s stallion and mares are diamonds in their owners eyes. and it generally takes a couple years of no sales before they realize how far in over their heads they are.
And while I understand FTFOTB when you say the best quality should only be bred.. the problem is you don’t always get ‘the best’ even when you breed the best to the best. AND who does the ‘quality’ determination? If only the owner does the evaluation (BYB or experienced Judge/Trainer) then it is easy to make excuses and keep on keeping on with what you are doing.
No answers here, just pointing out it isn’t all black and white, and it’s easy to say someone else shouldn’t breed their stock, it’s a lot harder to stand up and say “I won’t breed my own stock”.
This is why I tout proving the production of your breeding programs. Have a goal. Breed for it, and compete with the resulting foals at the most competitive level available. Meaning don’t say your breeding program is successful when your 3 foals from your stallion take 5th 8th and 12th places in a class of 13. It doesn’t have to be breed shows, just make sure it’s a fair representation of what’s out there.
I read an article in the QH Journal a while back about turning to oldenburg-type inspections for breeding stock quarter horses. There was an enormous outcry on the podunk ignorant online forums, you know…the ones that support breeding your saddlebred/quarter horse/appaloosa/shetland pony to your neighbor’s homozygous tobiano cremello for $200 and a ton of hay… anyway, they all say they’ll ‘stop registering their horses’ if that happens. Because they ‘don’t trust the registry to do the right thing’. Puhleeeez, I don’t trust you ignorant greedy apathetic pseudo-wannabe breeders to breed the right horses, that’s for sure.
But I want to know…
WHAT WOULD YOU DO?? If you had to subject your animals to a breed inspection before they were accepted as breeding stock to their prospective registry… would you do it?
I can tell you that I would do it IN A HEARTBEAT.
The BREED registries don’t want to register LESS horses, they want to make sure the quality that’s being registered adequately represents the breed. So all that hooplah about ‘not trusting the registry’ is just idiotic.
Inspections would eliminate the animals FROM THE BREEDING GENE POOL, but wouldn’t prevent them from being trained, showed and enjoyed. I think it would provide incentive to those that breed mediocre stock to train their animals so they would be worth something more than just being baby factories.
How about if a horse proved itself sufficiently (earned 150 points or 2 ROMs or something along those lines), it could earn breeding status. That way, those that obviously ARE breeding quality can pass right into the breeding shed if they so wish, but those that are inferior individuals have to earn their right in breed-associated or discipline-specific shows.
Just a little dream of mine… I for one would love to see it happen. I think it would eliminate horses like that godawful palomino stallion from the previous blog, and all the other dun/grulla/buckskin monstrosities I’ve posted… and would allow the ones that deserve to be bred to have decent horses to be bred to…
OFCOL said, “How about if a horse proved itself sufficiently (earned 150 points or 2 ROMs or something along those lines), it could earn breeding status. That way, those that obviously ARE breeding quality can pass right into the breeding shed if they so wish, but those that are inferior individuals have to earn their right in breed-associated or discipline-specific shows.”
I, too, would welcome inspections! It will never happen, though, because these people believe they have a RIGHT to breed whatever they wish.
Regarding earning points in order to be considered quality – This will not work, either. I can show you many stallions with a TON of points that shouldn’t be breeding, yet there are many stallions who aren’t shown that ARE quality enough to breed on. Points and ROMs don’t make a quality breeding horse.
I’m not sure of the specifics, but I’m pretty sure it’s something to do with a missing or improperly filled out breeders certificate.
Right, but it WOULD inspire people to SHOW their crap, instead of just leaving it in the pasture and griping about how those ‘big ol meanies’ at the registry didn’t find Punkin’s cow-hocked ewe-necked long-backed high-percentage-foundation self to be ‘breeding quality’… just a thought.
OFCOL, yes, it probably would create an incentive to get their horses out there and do something to add value to them.
http://www.painthorsejournal.com/disciplinaryactions.htm
First entry, July 12th.
I personally would welcome inspections, in essence, showing is a type of inspection, but sometimes it isn’t under the ideal of conditions (3 head in your class and you take second, *LOL*)
No easy answers. Still have owners that wouldn’t agree with the inspectors and breed anyway. *sigh*
I have tested rockey for HERDA, (negative) and the most likely of my mares (neg, thank goodness) and need to get the GBED test done as well. Next on the list. No impressive so I don’t have to worry about HYPP. I’m sure they’ll find more to test for, and I’ll keep adding them to the pile on him.
He ends up positive for something, he becomes a gelding. Horses have enough obstacles in life to get over without being at a genetic disadvantage, too.
grullotobi said, “No easy answers. Still have owners that wouldn’t agree with the inspectors and breed anyway. *sigh*”
Of course there would be breeders who wouldn’t agree with inspections. They KNOW their horses wouldn’t pass. And yes, they’ll breed anyway, just like they do now. They’re also the same ones who say they don’t like to show, for the very same reasons – their horses would not be competitive. Anywhere.
grullotobi said…
I personally would welcome inspections, in essence, showing is a type of inspection, but sometimes it isn’t under the ideal of conditions (3 head in your class and you take second, *LOL*)
No easy answers. Still have owners that wouldn’t agree with the inspectors and breed anyway. *sigh*
Right, but the idea is that, if someone wants to buy a REGISTERED BREEDING STOCK Quarter Horse, and register the offspring of it as quarter horses, they would have to buy one that has passed the inspection.
While it is true there would be some asshats that breed anyway, it would hurt THEIR market much more and not the market for decent horses. And maybe if their market sucks more, they’ll stop breeding. One can only hope…
Looking at things, I’m afraid I agree with Barnibus… with NO outlet for unwanted horses, a lot will just be abandoned in the next few years. A euthanasia/shotgun “clinic” and mass graves is much more humane than letting them starve. I am completely squicked by bloody dead things, but I’d help out in this, even if meant I’d need vomiting breaks.
I do hope that we don’t ever reach a point where horses are only affordable for the truly wealthy, but things may well head that direction. In my area, if one needs to board one’s horse out, one’s looking at a *minimum* of $10K to $12K per year per horse by the time the vet, the farrier etc. are included. I don’t know a lot of people who have that kind of spare money.
My husband and I have a small parcel of land (3 1/2 acres) ina suburban area, and even a barn that could be fixed up… but there’s no place to ride a horse (much of our land is very steep or swampy.) At some point I *may* have a pasture pet or two, but not unless I know I can afford it. A riding horse would have to be boarded elsewhere.
inspections are an interesting thing to study. the countries that consider inspections “routine and required” have been doing it for a long time. inspections for breeding rights go back a long time and well into military history, many countries still have a State Stud where owners can go to breed their mare to an approved stud at an economic price. we have no such thing in the US and more importantly we have no NATIONAL pride when it comes to horse breeding. we have instead its bastard red-headed step child called BREED PRIDE. in germany the breeding of “regional breeds” is a matter of regional pride, everyone wants to produce the best Oldenburger in all of Oldenburg, the best Hanovarian in all of Hanover and so on. then they seek to have the best stallion or mare in all the country. the real twist is that a huge percent of those breeders dont show their horses. many of those top scoreing stallions DONT compete, but thier offspring do. their end goal is to breed the best GERMAN horse, not the best “breed”. at that point the “breed” becomes secondary because they are judged on TYPE and above all performance, NOT an individual breed standard.
the ONLY way to impliment realistic National Inspections would be to hold regional and then national Inspections for TYPE, and NOT NOT NOT NOT Breed. the only way to chose which horse is the best of a Type is to work it. we already have warmblood inspections in america, what we need are Inspections for other TYPES, such as:
Stock Horse. if your horse can work a cow and rein then bring him on down we got plenty of cows and cow trials your horse. his end inspection scores will tell us what quality Stock Horse he is.
Speed Horse: if your horse is sound enough to produce blazing fast barrel, poles and keyhole times then guess what..its sound enough to jump a moderate height show jumping course with the same blazing speed, agility and coordination.
well its a start anyway.
the other big thing is that performance inspects arnt a one day thing, they last day or even weeks depending on the country. horses must past ridgid repeated soundness exams, pass temperment tests and score above the minimum in EVERY event. they require hiring an excellent rider/trainer or you yourself being extremely skilled. but the benifits of having a top scoring stallion are worth it. remember that warmbloods Inspections are geared to the approve the best stallions suitable for producing offspring in FOUR different displines being Jumping, Dressage, Three Day Eventing and Combined Driving. Inspections and preparing for inspects is EXPENSIVE, but for many breeders its a one time investment that can pay off ten fold.
a top scored Speed Horse stallion would be marketed toward breeders of barrel racers, show-jumping (probubly up to 3’9″ because most would probubly be pony height), polo and Gymkana.
a top scored Stock Horse would be marketed towards Reiners/Working Cow Horse breeders, Ropers and Team Penning.
however some sports and disaplines are so specialized or extreme that a horse must be extremely specialized in conformation to have any hope of actaully doing it. cutting is one of those kind of sports, so is endurance racing over 50 miles as well as heavy drafing. there is no need to hold inspections for horses of those types because the competition is so HARD that its an inspection all its own.
the idea of inspections is the have the best X-TYPE of horse, the breed of horse doesnt matter because all that matters is that your horse beat every other horse )of a dozen different breeds). but the sad fact is National Inspections for TYPEs will always be over shadowed by the American OBSESSION with “breed”. the idea that “pure blood” is superior to non-pureblood (i.e cross bred) and that “purebred breeding” has anything to do with actual USE of the animal. for many people the high scoring Speed Horse would be just another Nag if the horse is not their “faveriot breed”.
Barnibus,
That is a facinating view… I think you are missing one of the fundamental points though…
Quarter Horses (as an example) Are a ‘Type’ in general, but are a ‘breed’ due to the parentage restrictions.. but within the ‘breed’ we have shows/classes that showcase various ‘types’. The World Champion western pleasure horse is one ‘type’, the NCHA high money earner is another ‘type’ and the world champion halter Mare is yet another ‘type’ that all exist within the same ‘breed’, the Quarter Horse(AQHA) (and that is it’s own discussion/debate within the quarter horse community- all around horses vs the specialty ‘types that have evolved)
I wouldn’t use inspections as a way to promote a specific ‘type’. I see inspections as a way for studs that don’t get promoted/show in the ring and thru their get as a way to show they ARE more than someones back-yard-unshown-due-to-injury-granson of-someone-fugly.
The breed association ought to say if a stud isn’t ‘proven’ or ‘inspected’ in some fashion, then it costs more to register the foals or something.. course, that still won’t stop the people that think crossing a TWH, Arabian and a shetland is a good thing.
I think you are mistaken, that we americans think ‘pure bred’ or ‘breed’ makes the better horse, I really don’t think so, personally. The ‘average’ back yard USA breeder doesn’t really see or understand the difference in ‘types’ of quarter horses, and will just as fast breed a grade mare for someone as a registered one.. and in neither case is the resulting foal better than the parents, because they don’t have a clue what their focus is, or what their goal is, other than getting another cute foal on the ground.
I guess what I am saying badly, is a good AQHA breeder understands it is just as bad to cross breed with no purpose two ‘types’ of quarter horses, as it is to breed grade horses together.. You don’t generally want to cross your Halter type qh on your cutting qh.. 99.999 percent of the time you get a horse that can’t do either event well. A fugly horse breeder doesn’t take that into consideration.
(does that make any sense?)
See, I’m proposing a much looser type of inspection than the ones Barnibus outlined. I’m talking very basic balance and limb soundness, the type that ANY breed can agree with. The rest can and very well SHOULD be up to the breeder’s artistic interpretation of the breed standard.
I don’t disagree with people who breed horses differently from what I like, I just disagree when they do it irresponsibly and produce horses that stand little to no chance at being decently marketable or having moderately sound careers.
grullotobi,
That was very well said in my opinion. I don’t think we have the “variety” of type in the Pasos like QH, but there is some. There are those that insist the Pure Puerto Rican is the “only” way to go. Anymore though, there aren’t as many PPR Pasos, so the gene pool is declining. My sister recently sold an older PPR mare for her farm owner. Honestly, my horses are probably true “American Paso Finos”, as they have Colombian, Puerto Rican and way way back, a smidgen of Peruvian. (Peruvian bloodstock is no longer allowed)
grullotobi,
the problem i see with AQHA “breed type” is that they dont often put their “types” up against other breeds of the same so-called type. the AQHA Hunter and the AQHA Pleasure Driving Horse are the two that most come to mind. Very few AQHA Champion Hunters ever compete in the hunters at “A” rated open shows. where as warmblood, thoroughbred and other breeders will put their horses up against any other “hunter” or “hunter-type” out there most AQHA Hunter Champions will not. most of the AQHA horses that win(or even compete) at open “A” shows in the Hunters do not compete in or can not win at in AQHA Hunter classes. the point is that “breed-type” creates extreme distortion. in the worse cases the actual use of the specific TYPE is completely lost within the breed due to “breed standards”. there is a HUGE difference between TYPE and “breed-type”. in many breeds “type” classes are nothing more than “dress up classes”, yes the infamous Western Pleasure horse in English tack, the Western Pleasure Horse in Harness, the English Pleasure(saddleseat) Horse in Western Tack, the 5-Gaited Saddlbred dressed up like a hunter.
im not saying by any means that Breeds should be gotten rid of or replaced entirely with Types. what i am saying is that people should right TYPE(which is conformation) of horse for what they want to do and choose breed secondary. if you want to show the Hunters get a hunter-type horse or breed one. but AQHA/Morgan/Saddlbred/Arabian Hunter-type is only_ _”type”_within_its_ breed_. “breed-types” would be considered Sub-Types not TYPES.
the ONLY time type was ever about “breed” was at the dawn of domestication when there were only five Sub-Species of Horse which possessed five distinct conformation Types.
I don’t have a problem with the specialization of the quarter horse, or people showing only against other quarter horses in their specialized disciplines… so long as the horses are decently conformed and sound and are marketable.
You don’t generally see Sky’s Blue Boy or Dynamic Deluxe sons or daughters or even grandsons or granddaughters going through the auctions and slaughter houses and rescues.
It’s A.) people who don’t prove their breeding programs (either from the parents or the offspring… you CAN get away with choosing to prove the offspring instead of the parents, it just takes longer), or B.) people who don’t use decent bloodlines in the first place.
I can’t stand it, absolutely CAN NOT STAND IT, when people breed without knowing certain traits of certain bloodlines. Drives me up the wall.
For instance, there was some moron spouting off about how Zippo Pine Bar’s make GREAT barrel and rope horses… puhleeeez. While ONE may have made a good one, I highly doubt that THE ENTIRE LINE would be prospects for those disciplines and I certainly WOULDN’T advertise it and encourage people to buy Zippo Pine Bar’s for barrel or rope prospects! Why? Because they are conformed to go SLOW with a LEVEL HEAD SET. Exactly the OPPOSITE of what you want in a barrel or rope horse.
Otherwise you wind up with unmarketable pieces of crap…
oops… that should have been B.) decent quality conformation and decent bloodlines in the first place…. forgot the conformation part, which is just as important as pedigree.
oh_for_crying_out_loud,
such an inspection already exsists. its called a PrePurchase Vet Exam. most vets will ask you what you plan on doing with the horse and that “use intent” is used to gage the severity of “potential soundess conserns”. if you say “i buying this horse as a barrel prospect” but the horse has wicked long gaskins the vet(a good vet that is) will tell you the horse is likely to develope “issues” in the stifles as a result of barrel racing. many vets will not sign off on a horse of inappropriet conformation for the “intended use” because when the horse comes up dead lame a month after purchase the vet many be sued.
case in point when i sold a hansom anglo-arab the vet would not pass him for barrel racing, but passed him western pleasure. he did not fail his vet check in any way. but she “failed” him as a barrel racing prospect do to “weak conformation points in relation to barrel racing”.
the vet check system should in theory work, however the people who buy and breed dirt-cheap horse rarely fork out the money on a pre purchase vet exam.
Right, but the pre-purchase vet exam doesn’t get stamped on the papers of the horse.
it has to be right there in their idiot faces before they will see it, of course.
I swear, people should have to have licenses to breed animals just like they have to have them to drive cars.
not really, of course… but in certain cases, it wouldn’t be a bad idea.
Keep the faith, FHOTD and followers, some people have sense!!!!!!
Just got off a breed (guesswhich one?) chat list and saw these two comments: “The market is too unstable to guarantee good homes for my horses and that’s paramount for me. I am not breeding any more until the market picks up. Have a 2-yr gelding to sell, and will keep my three brood/riding mares until death do us part.” Also, “With horse market down we won’t be breeding for a year or two, and then for replacements only. We have enough hay to feed what we have, don’t need to feed any more.” These are folk with nice animals.
The top dollar market for show horses seems okay at the moment, and there’ll be plenty of checkbooking in OKC next week, but the BYB (my breed) breeders are being sensible.
I realize this isn’t a trailering issue (does it count that our barn’s trailer arrived in OKC this morning?) but thought I’d catch up on the “state of the industry” article which was posted a while back on the (my breed) lists.
To keep On Topic, we have a heavy ol’ ’73 Miley going on its third floor but you could haul Godzilla in it.
Forthefutureofthebreed,
From your post regarding ranch bred production sales, I’d have to guess you have never owned a horse that came off one of the big ranch’s.
Many of the breeders have been in business for 50 years or better and their horses sell well. Their animals may not have the close up “popular” pedigree of the day but these horses are produced with a lot of thought and proven success. They are bred to be working animals, they have good minds, sound feet and good conformation. You may not be seeing many of them in the big breed shows but you see them all over the US being shown in working cow horse shows, rodeo, roping competition and as trusted hardworking ranch and personal mounts.
Maybe you should try one yourself, I’m sure your opinion would change.
Here’s my problem with the ranch bred production sales: NOBODY needs to breed 200 freaking horses in one year. Seriously. I don’t care how nice they are. If you consider that the average horse is broke out at 3 and should be usable for a minimum 15 years, how often do we need to replace what’s currently out there? Not enough to justify one breeder producing HUNDREDS of babies every year. You do not see the show horse breeders having 200 foals a year. They are maybe having 10 or 20, if that. It’s the working ranches that have a lot of acreage that pop out the hundreds. Some stallion runs out with 100 mares. You can’t tell me those mares get much in the way of vet care. If they have a baby, fine, if they don’t, oh well. If a baby freezes to death or breaks a leg, oh well, that’s the law of the jungle! Bleah.
Every time I see someone with 200 horses, I wonder how often feet get trimmed or teeth get floated or deworming takes place. You do the math. Who has that kind of money?
As to the suspended fugly breeder…ROTFLMAO.
Deb said…
Forthefutureofthebreed,
From your post regarding ranch bred production sales, I’d have to guess you have never owned a horse that came off one of the big ranch’s.
Many of the breeders have been in business for 50 years or better and their horses sell well. Their animals may not have the close up “popular” pedigree of the day but these horses are produced with a lot of thought and proven success. They are bred to be working animals, they have good minds, sound feet and good conformation. You may not be seeing many of them in the big breed shows but you see them all over the US being shown in working cow horse shows, rodeo, roping competition and as trusted hardworking ranch and personal mounts.
Maybe you should try one yourself, I’m sure your opinion would change.
What FHOTD said, and I will add to that.
Since I have been around QHs for a very long time (1966), I have received the sale catalogs from almost every ranch that produces them. And I have purchased many older ones to add to my collection. Many have photos of hundreds of foals that are selling, and some with a bunch of mares they are culling. I have yet to find one of the quality I am looking for. Believe me, I am looking pretty hard, and I am not particular about where it comes from. No one can tell me that a large ranch horse breeder, with 100 mares or more, has ALL quality mares. Most of them are common junk, bred to common junk stallions who should have been gelded. Many of the stallions in the pedigree should have been gelded and the mares should have never been bred. Just because someone has been breeding horses for 50 years doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing. It’s not all that difficult to throw them all out on the range and wait for them to multiply. The ones that survive are featured in their big production sales every year. No one needs to breed that many poor to mediocre quality horses on an annual basis. Since I know what it costs to properly care for a horse, no one can provide that level of care for 500 head of horses. It is a given that these people don’t worm those foals regularly, if ever, let alone vaccinate them. When they run a scared 2yo that is not halter broke through a chute to the sale ring, you know darn well nothing has been done to that horse.
Since most breeders like this breed for certain bloodlines (and not conformation), and since I know for a fact that a good pedigree doesn’t guarantee a quality horse, then I’m confident these horses are not of the quality that I seek. These horses aren’t even from good pedigrees, from my observation. They are not of the quality to improve the breed (nor is that the goal of the breeders who bred them). These breeders are propagating, not breeding quality horses. Any sound horse can be broke to ride and trained, so that is no justification for breeding hundreds of them.
Well.. I think Deb has a good point on this one. There are *some* big ranch breeders that do know what ‘type’ of critter they are breeding for, and exactly what crosses produce what they are looking for. The King ranch is an excellent example, and so is the Pitzer(sp?) ranch. These horses were not bred for halter type conformation.. they were bred for working conformation. Their heads/necks are not refined, their shoulders are more upright, and they don’t have the biggest hind end in the world. BUT, the good ranch breeders have broke out and USED just about all of the broodmares in their band, and culled ones that didn’t make the cut for the type of riding horse they needed for ranch work. The selection criteria isn’t even close to what you are probably using in your program FTFOTB, but that doesn’t make it less valid.
I personally can’t stand the Hancock line of horses, jarheaded, and thick in the brains and in the neck, a lot of them, but there have been breeders that have made them into just what the weekend, dull handed cowboy roper needs to go roping.. and they are tough horses, that do last under the so/so care they recieve from their owners.
Temperment plays a lot into what makes a good ranch horse, and that is chosen above pretty heads and necks.. just the nature of the selection for the type of horse they want.
The problem comes when someone buys one of these because it is a blue roan stud colt, and then they breed it to any mare, with any type of pedigree (3 generation Sonny Dee Bar, Impressive great grandaughter, Dash for Cash race bred on the top with poco on the bottom) to produce foals that really aren’t bred to do anything. Their mares are culls from a variety of other types of programs, and they get bred to this type of colt and it ends up with crapola.
So while I agree there ARE ranches out there that aren’t breeding for purpose, I don’t think it works to knock ALL of the big ranch breeders out there, or to knock ALL of their horses. As someone pointed out, you wouldn’t want your ranch bred working horse to be from a line of western pleasure, halter only or even cutting stock.. none of those ‘types’ are going to be able to stand up to the grind that a good working horse has to go thru day in, day out. The market for good roping horses is good to very good right now, so I wouldn’t say they are all fugly’s that have no purpose in life.
Barnibus,
I agree completely, I do not understand why AQHA has english horses, or pleasure horses, other than the original intent was to give the race track AQHA rejects a place to show and compete in the AQHA world. You are right, most of those horses probably would not make it on a real hunter circut.
I wish I could agree on the whole vet thing.. but as has been pointed out before, vets over here are not very wise on conformation, unless they are horse breeders and show horses themselves.. they don’t have much of a clue, and they hate giving specifics on a horse like you point out because of our sue-happy system over here. Pre-purchase exams have become politically correct for that reason, and they don’t always give the strait poop on their opinion.
grullotobi said, So while I agree there ARE ranches out there that aren’t breeding for purpose, I don’t think it works to knock ALL of the big ranch breeders out there, or to knock ALL of their horses. As someone pointed out, you wouldn’t want your ranch bred working horse to be from a line of western pleasure, halter only or even cutting stock.. none of those ‘types’ are going to be able to stand up to the grind that a good working horse has to go thru day in, day out. The market for good roping horses is good to very good right now, so I wouldn’t say they are all fugly’s that have no purpose in life.
No one said ALL ranch horse breeders don’t breed for a purpose. We all speak in generalities here, do we not?
And, no, I do not expect to find the type of horses I’m looking for in a ranch horse production sale. But I would expect that they breed horses like Pitzer USED to – horses that could work AND be competitive anywhere. The leading breeder of AQHA Champions is proof that they USED to breed the quality needed to contribute positively to the breed. Hardly any of them do that today. They’re just adding to the numbers of mediocrity out there. By all means, if people want an ugly, coarse blue roan horse to go rope on, then I guess people should breed the crap out of them. Ugh.
Fugleyhorseofoftheday, the ranch horses do get vet care, they also get vaccinations. They are dewormed and get hoof care when needed. The horses running on 16,000 acres don’t need farrier work like horses that are kept up on small acreage, no need for it as they wear their feet off naturally. Parasites are not a problem on the bigger land ranches as sections are rotated with cattle, which keeps parasites to a minimum. Regarding whether a baby freezes to death or breaks a leg, you don’t have to be a big rancher to have a baby freeze to death or break a leg, get hit by lightning or whatever, unfortunate things happen. I’d bet most of the ranch horses out on big ranges are healthier and happier than stalled/small acreage horses. Since the ranchers do their own vaccines and hoof work, the expense isn’t as great as you think when you do the work yourself and don’t have to rely on a vet for everything.
Forthefutureofthebreed
It’s amazing how well attended those ranch production sales are. It’s also amazing the high prices they get for that “common junk” you refer to. Maybe, just maybe, others opinion of the ranch horses is different than yours. Go figure.
deb said, It’s amazing how well attended those ranch production sales are. It’s also amazing the high prices they get for that “common junk” you refer to. Maybe, just maybe, others opinion of the ranch horses is different than yours. Go figure.
Yeah, everyone is looking for an affordable horse. And no one ever said those buyers knew what they were doing, either. They’re duped by the “foundation” crap, like everyone else. “High prices”? LOL. Colts sell for $200 each at the production sales I’ve seen. No, I’m not talking about King Ranch or Pitzers (although neither is as successful today as they were in the past).
FTFOTB said:
“But I would expect that they breed horses like Pitzer USED to – horses that could work AND be competitive anywhere. The leading breeder of AQHA Champions is proof that they USED to breed the quality needed to contribute positively to the breed. “
Problem is the show ring has changed on them. They are suited to still be roping/ranch horses (and look prettier than the average hancock one out there) but they can’t really be compeditive with the ‘specialized’ ‘type’ bloodlines anymore. You can’t expect a Two Eyed Jack bred horse to be compeditive with a zippo pine bar bred horse or an impressive halter horse.. the wp ideal ‘type’ has moved to a very specific way of going, the halter type to a very typey look that is not at all suited to ranch work. They haven’t changed the type of horses they breed, and they are still compedative roping horses, but they can’t be successful in all the open class divisions anymore.. the judging has changed.
Is it fair to them to say the SHOULD still be breeding for the all around open horse that can do it all, when the judging is so ‘type’ driven now? And how would that square with the Ranch people they market to? I’m not sure you can breed a horse that can do ranch work, halter, wp, and everything and win at the open AQHA level. Yes, that happened in the past, but the show ring has changed a lot since the 1970′s and 1980′s. JMHO
grullotobi said, Is it fair to them to say the SHOULD still be breeding for the all around open horse that can do it all, when the judging is so ‘type’ driven now? And how would that square with the Ranch people they market to? I’m not sure you can breed a horse that can do ranch work, halter, wp, and everything and win at the open AQHA level. Yes, that happened in the past, but the show ring has changed a lot since the 1970′s and 1980′s. JMHO
Yes, I think it’s fair to judge them as I have. If the showring has changed, why change your breeding philosophies and goals to accomodate? The bottom line is breed improvement, which is not what the current trend is. Two wrongs don’t make a right. If people disagree with what is in the showring today, then it’s up to the breeders who should be responsible enough to breed a quality, all-around horse. THAT was the breed standard before all the specialization. But, you see, money rears its ugly head again, and dictates what people will breed.
Those big ranch production sales are something I will never quite understand. I mean, by the sound of it, they just breed animals that are capable of doing ranch work. They let them multiply out on the range and as someone said “they were bred for working conformation. Their heads/necks are not refined, their shoulders are more upright, and they don’t have the biggest hind end in the world.”
If you’re not worried about the pretty heads and necks, or fantastic conformation, then why bother breeding a shit-ton of Quarter Horses every year, when all you really want is a rangey horse?
Think about it. A mustang may take more effort train, but they’re built to handle whatever the range throws at them, and they were pretty much the cowboys’ original cow and ranch animals anyways. And guess what? There are thousands of them just sitting around in holding pens, waiting to be bought for just $125.
If you don’t have the patience to train up a mustang, there are still the left-overs from previous years of production sales, why would you want more of them? If even 3 ranches had 200 head sales every year, then after 10 years thats 6,000 animals. You can’t tell me that all 6,000 of those mediocre horses are actually in such high demand that the 600 new animals will be needed.
Those big sales are a complete joke, and just think about how many fewer animals would be flooding the bottom and middle markets if they were stopped.
Seriously, why pump out 200 foals a year when there are already so many animals that are exactly like them that people are having trouble giving them away?
Deb said…
Forthefutureofthebreed,
From your post regarding ranch bred production sales, I’d have to guess you have never owned a horse that came off one of the big ranch’s.
Many of the breeders have been in business for 50 years or better and their horses sell well. Their animals may not have the close up “popular” pedigree of the day but these horses are produced with a lot of thought and proven success. They are bred to be working animals, they have good minds, sound feet and good conformation. You may not be seeing many of them in the big breed shows but you see them all over the US being shown in working cow horse shows, rodeo, roping competition and as trusted hardworking ranch and personal mounts.
Maybe you should try one yourself, I’m sure your opinion would change.
I have been around the block myself, when it comes to quarter horses. And yes, I’ve come into close contact with many ‘ranch raised’ horses. I wasn’t unimpressed with them, but my reaction was the same one FTFOTB noted – they were common. Middle of the road ability, middle of the road pedigree and middle of the road conformation.
I don’t know… I’m on the fence about it, actually. I’m not sure what allows one to be okay and the other to not be okay, but for some are much more ‘okay’ than others.
Mare power is most certainly a factor. Proven performing and producing mares will make or break a program, that’s for sure. I’ve seen it so many times, a halfway decent stallion and a boatload of $500 Saturday Night Auction specials… which is why the market is in the crapper.
Gill said, “…Think about it. A mustang may take more effort train, but they’re built to handle whatever the range throws at them, and they were pretty much the cowboys’ original cow and ranch animals anyways. And guess what? There are thousands of them just sitting around in holding pens, waiting to be bought for just $125.”
That’s logical. I know of several BLM mustangs that were well trained, winning working cowhorses. But they’re not registered, nor have a documented pedigree. Just like the “custom” breeds, these breeders must have something they feel is legitimate, so it has appeal to the buying public. “Foundation Quarter Horse” has a ton of appeal, and sounds so noble. Add in old time breeders, with huge spreads, and it’s even more noble and justifiable. Add in working cowboys and cattle, and it’s straight out of the old west. If they dislike AQHA so much (by starting their own foundation registries), why are they still riding on AQHA’s name and success?
FTFOTB said:
“Yes, I think it’s fair to judge them as I have. If the showring has changed, why change your breeding philosophies and goals to accomodate? The bottom line is breed improvement, which is not what the current trend is. Two wrongs don’t make a right. If people disagree with what is in the showring today, then it’s up to the breeders who should be responsible enough to breed a quality, all-around horse. THAT was the breed standard before all the specialization. But, you see, money rears its ugly head again, and dictates what people will breed.”
Ok, now I am totally confused. If we are talking about a good ranch horse breeder, like the Pitzer ranch, then I’m not sure I am following you. Are you upset at the Pitzer ranch for not breeding the show ring ‘type’ or mad at the judges for picking type and not the “all around” horse that was good enough way back when??? The Pfizer ranch is still raising the same type of horses that they made AQHA champions from.. aren’t they?
What exactly do you mean by breed improvement? the Pitzer ranch isn’t doing breed improvement? or the Judging in the showring isn’t doing breed improvement?
How can the breeders be responsible for breed improvement if the two goals, a good ranch horse and a world champion halter horse are mutually exclusive? Isn’t that kind of crazy?
As far as the foundation registries go.. their whole point and purpose is to go BACK to the all around horse that the Pitzer ranch championed… So I’m completely confused as to how, on the one hand, people condemn the foundation breeder and their shows, saying there is no breed improvement, when foundation breeders WANT to showcase the all around horse that some feel AQHA breed shows should be promoting instead of the separate ‘types’ that are for the almighty dollar???
Come on guys… Maybe we need a thread dedicated to what “breed improvement” is, and by what standards you judge THAT before we rip up on all these different breeders.
Here, I’ll leave you guys with this link:
http://www.thepitzerranch.com/ranchstallions.php
please click thru the stallions, and see how they have promoted them. This is what I consider a ‘good’ ranch breeder, If they aren’t, then I’d like to know why they aren’t, and what they should do different.
I’m just trying to establish there are BIG ranches that do breed good horses, if we can’t agree that this is an example of this, then I’m not sure where we can agree on ‘breed improvement”.
How many good using ranch horses are actually needed? These big ranches are putting out hundreds per year.
grullotobi, most of the large ranch production breeders aren’t breeding the quality they once did, and many of the newer ones don’t have a clue. The older patriarchs of those family ranches are dying off, and the younger generation doesn’t have the same eye and wisdom the older generation had…or I should say, they have a “different” perspective on things.
Breed improvement is striving for EXCELLENCE that will contribute to the breed in the long run. It does not mean breeding more of the SAME that is already out there in huge quantities. If you get the QH Journal, take a look at the ranch horse production sale ads. Half of the magazine is devoted to them. And tell me where there is one single prospect among them that will rise up and be something special, or contribute to the breed in a big way. None have in the last decade. I’ve seen the exact same scenario, back in the 1950s, where big ranches touted their stock, which was mediocre at best. Nothing spectacular comes from those breeders.
The “foundation breeders” haven’t created anything special at all, after several decades of “preservation” of the old type of QH. While the bloodlines are old, the horse isn’t the same horse. Five or six generations of propagation of mediocre colored horses doesn’t make spectacular stock no matter who the distant ancestors are. Yet they keep breeding more of the same. By the hundreds. They’re not striving for ANYTHING other than dilute or roan color on a high percentage foundation pedigree. That is not striving for exceptional all-around horses.
Yes, Pitzer (don’t know who Pfizer is) breeds working horses, and they ride and show their working horses. That’s great. But there isn’t anything that even comes close to the caliber of horses that came from that ranch when Howard was alive. It doesn’t matter what trends in the show ring changed or what horses the judges are choosing. The horses are not the same quality. Their horses today wouldn’t have been competitive as AQHA Champions yesterday. Of course they wouldn’t be AQHA Champions today, either. Maybe they will now with the new Performance Halter class. I’ve seen dumpy looking broodmares in their catalogs that are from several generations of nothing, and the foals from those mares show it. Yeah, some make good rope horses. So what? Those rope horses are not of the quality they need to be as representatives of top all around horses of the breed. Many of those stallions they have (and the ones they sent here to Nevada) should be geldings. Of course, that is my opinion. You certainly don’t have to agree with it.
I think the judges today are wrong, to a point, but they can only judge what is presented to them. The breeders are at fault for not setting high enough standards and goals for breed improvement.
Breed improvement is a responsible breeder striving for the goal to breed EXCEPTIONAL horses, ones that are clearly higher quality than the average of that breed. I don’t see evidence of this in many of those big ranch breeders’ production sales. In fact, I don’t see evidence of this in many programs, large or small.
grullotobi said,
Here, I’ll leave you guys with this link:
http://www.thepitzerranch.com/ranchstallions.php
please click thru the stallions, and see how they have promoted them. This is what I consider a ‘good’ ranch breeder, If they aren’t, then I’d like to know why they aren’t, and what they should do different.
I’m just trying to establish there are BIG ranches that do breed good horses, if we can’t agree that this is an example of this, then I’m not sure where we can agree on ‘breed improvement”.
Look, I didn’t say they were the worst out there. I’m talking about the huge numbers of ranch horse breeders, many in the midwest (Kansas, Nebraska, the Dakotas, etc.) that are not doing what Pitzers are doing. But my point is, even Pitzer, who is among the top among ranch horse breeders) isn’t producing a horse that fits my ideal. And, no, I’m not a halter horse breeder.
Grullotobi – I have a better idea. Check out my blog – visualize all the horses I posted as solid (just pretend they’re Quarter Horses), and apply the same logic. Your answer will be there regarding breed improvement.
I’ve posted here a lot on many comment pages, explaining breed improvement, what quality is, what responsible breeders are, and breeding exclusively for exceptional horses who will maintain the integrity of a breed. So far, Foundation Quarter Horses aren’t it.
I’ve had over 40 years to formulate what my ideal type of horse is, and what to look for that will benefit my breeding program today. I’ve looked everywhere, from big ranch breeders to small breeders with just a few mares. Foundation Quarter Horses aren’t it. I remember when they started with the foundation crap, and the reasons why. I’ve read every piece of literature they’ve published, and I still get all of their magazines and papers. I’m not impressed. For a group of people to say they are breeding the ultimate in an all around horse (and have been at it for several decades), I would think one could find what they’re looking for from among their THOUSANDS of horses available. I’m still looking. And you can’t tell me that a foundation QH can’t compete in halter because of today’s trends. HD Royalty is a 94% foundation QH that has a superior in halter.
http://www.highdefinitionhorses.com/
Zans Parity is another example of a working horse that has the class to go beyond being a rope horse.
http://www.walshquarterhorses.com/
There is absolutely no reason to sacrifice quality and class in favor of performance. But when people sacrifice all that for a percentage number and certain colors, breeding by pedigree only and not by the individual quality of the horse, you’re not going to get anything exceptional.
so i have a question. can the “quarter horse” be actually considered a BREED by scientific standards?
as far as i can tell Quarter Horse is registry and a club but not an actual breed of horse. having a “breed standard on paper” does not make a breed, all it does lay out what the uniformed appearance _should_ be. the fact that they 1)lack uniformed appearance and 2)have a constant influx of “outside blood” in the form thoroughbred should actually disqualify it as a breed as far as i can tell.
several “warmblood breed” registries also have the same practice of having a consistant flow of non-breed blood into their “breed”. which is why there are TWO kinds of warmblood registries. “Breed” and “Type”. the AQHA will also bump a cross-bred “appendix” up to “full status”. these practices basic cause the “breed” to shoot itself in the foot, so to speak.
am i the only one that has had this thought?
barnibus asked if the “quarter horse” be actually considered a BREED by scientific standards?
That’s a great question. From my perspective, they are a type, with a governing “breed” registry association since 1941, limited to certain bloodlines (QH and TB).
Historically, the type is documented as far back as the 1600s (see Speed and the Thoroughbred, by Alexander Mackay-Smith).
Just as there are many different “types” within a “purer” breed of horses (TBs, Arabians, some Morgans), there are many types among QHs, most of who do not fit the breed’s original ideal standard.
The constant influx of TB blood has not been a detriment to the QH – quite the opposite. Since most QHs originate from predominantly TB blood, TBs aren’t really a true outcross. But you are correct, QHs are, by definition, a type and not a specific, pure breed.
So, Barnibus, do you consider your Sulphur Horse stallion to be a breed or a type?
“”The horses running on 16,000 acres don’t need farrier work like horses that are kept up on small acreage, no need for it as they wear their feet off naturally. Parasites are not a problem on the bigger land ranches as sections are rotated with cattle, which keeps parasites to a minimum.”"
I have personal experience with the economy and health factor of keeping horses “out west”– when I lived in UT, even horses kept on smaller acreages in the drier more arid climate wore their feet nicely and had harder feet– farrier trims were needed less often, had less work to do, and few of my horses needed shoes for any reason. Parasites were very manageable in our area with 3 to 4x a year de-worming. I brought six of the same horses back to Michigan with me when we moved– a whole different world. I have to worm every 45-60 days (every 30 days for babies and yearlings) and the flies and biting insects are like nothing we had out west! The ground is soft and often wet, so not only do the hooves NOT wear at all, they also spread and flare, so a horse in work often needs shoes just to hold everything together.
Hay is also a whole different experience– that irrigated dairy alfafa in 90 to 110 lb bales we bought in UT is nonexistent here– lucky to find a bale of grass/alfafa mix over 45 lbs! And hay growers here have to dodge rain and even heavy dew to get each cutting, so growth stages (bloom, stem, maturity, fineness, etc) vary ALOT every year and evey cutting– out west you just quit running the Rainbirds for a week and presto, perfectly uniform, perfectly grown, perfectly cured hay…..
“” inspections are an interesting thing to study. the countries that consider inspections “routine and required” have been doing it for a long time. inspections for breeding rights go back a long time and well into military history, many countries still have a State Stud where owners can go to breed their mare to an approved stud at an economic price. we have no such thing in the US and more importantly we have no NATIONAL pride when it comes to horse breeding. we have instead its bastard red-headed step child called BREED PRIDE. “”
Another thing besides Inspections and National pride and state-supported breeding programs that these countries have is– horse slaughter. Yup, if a horse doesn’t make the grade, or does not hold up for its intended use, it is somehwat “routine” for it to be taken out of the genepool and put toward a useful (according to their culture) end.
Takita,
to be completely honest i havent really decided either way. i bought him purely based on Type which is far important to me than breed. all spanish mustangs that have sufficent phenotype are lumped into the Colonial Spanish Horse classification. as to whether or not a Sulphur, Kiger or anything else is a “breed” i will leave the scientific community. my opinion on whether or not my colt is of a specific breed means nothing in the eyes of science. at the moment i have no opinion on whether or not he of a breed or a strain, because what i “decide” is completely irrelevant to what the scientific results are.
Eastowest.
i see nothing wrong with that. the culled horses are being PERMINETLY removed from the breeding population. over time the number of horses that dont make the grade becomes very low. unlike in US where we just keep taking our failed working/show/riding horses and putting them back into the breeding population. mares that go lame from moderate working do to bad conformation or genetic disease are usually the first one to be put to “better use” as a broodmare. colts can be cut easly but spaying mares is rare and expensive. better to guarantee the horse does not go into the breeding population , IMO.if our breed registries would BAN the registration of horses with proven known genetic diseases (HYPP, Herda, CIDs ect) it would make a huge dent in the problem of breeding crap horses. but it will be a cold day in hell before anything like that happens.
It does get a little bit boring to hear all the snobbish remarks over and over about bybs. Good grief, they are not all idiots, poor white trash, hillbillies. Contrary to the belief of most on this blog, many got into breeding when the market was quite different, when you COULD actually make money on horses. And many are getting out of breeding now (not nearly enough). We used to breed: just one stallion and 2 of our own mares. We produced a total of 4 foals, 2 are owned by neighbors of ours now, and we own the other 2. The stallion had a great disposition, decent conformation and super breeding, but there was nothing fabulous about him otherwise. One mare had super conformation, great breeding, and a good personality as well. The other is an excellent riding mare – - we only had one foal from her. The stallion was gelded and sold 2 years ago, he also rode pretty well.
We did not get out of breeding because someone was sending us semi-snotty letters or calling us names or inundating us with nasty emails. We got out because I became involved with horse rescue and became very aware of the overpopulation of horses, the horrible conditions related to slaughter, and decided that there was no reason whatsoever to make another horse of any type.
By the way, when it comes to slaughter, there is no humane euthanasia associated with that business. Humane euthanasia is when the owner of the horse calls the vet and has the horse put down. Slaughter involves the horse being shipped in ghastly conditions with no food or water, often staying in a dry lot with scores of other horses for up to a month (and if the horse needs daily meds for various conditions, obviously not getting those meds), plenty of kicking and fighting and biting during this time, and then the scramble up the chute, through the blood and entrails of the horses that went before. The end comes with the captive bolt which may or may not stun the horse on the first hit, but may take 2 or even more hits to do the job. Then comes the stringing up by the leg, slitting the throat and bleeding the animal out while the heart is still beating. There is nothing in that process that is humane.
I do my part to encourage folks to stop breeding any horses unless they already have a home for the foal. There are thousands of horses needing homes now, thousands of foals. Plenty of slaughter horses have great papers, good conformation, and the majority are young, between the ages of 2 and 6 years old, in good health and sound. It’s not just bybs that need to take a look at their breeding practices, its everyone.
It does get a little bit boring to hear all the snobbish remarks over and over about bybs. Good grief, they are not all idiots, poor white trash, hillbillies. Contrary to the belief of most on this blog, many got into breeding when the market was quite different, when you COULD actually make money on horses. And many are getting out of breeding now (not nearly enough). We used to breed: just one stallion and 2 of our own mares. We produced a total of 4 foals, 2 are owned by neighbors of ours now, and we own the other 2. The stallion had a great disposition, decent conformation and super breeding, but there was nothing fabulous about him otherwise. One mare had super conformation, great breeding, and a good personality as well. The other is an excellent riding mare – - we only had one foal from her. The stallion was gelded and sold 2 years ago, he also rode pretty well.
We did not get out of breeding because someone was sending us semi-snotty letters or calling us names or inundating us with nasty emails. We got out because I became involved with horse rescue and became very aware of the overpopulation of horses, the horrible conditions related to slaughter, and decided that there was no reason whatsoever to make another horse of any type.
By the way, when it comes to slaughter, there is no humane euthanasia associated with that business. Humane euthanasia is when the owner of the horse calls the vet and has the horse put down. Slaughter involves the horse being shipped in ghastly conditions with no food or water, often staying in a dry lot with scores of other horses for up to a month (and if the horse needs daily meds for various conditions, obviously not getting those meds), plenty of kicking and fighting and biting during this time, and then the scramble up the chute, through the blood and entrails of the horses that went before. The end comes with the captive bolt which may or may not stun the horse on the first hit, but may take 2 or even more hits to do the job. Then comes the stringing up by the leg, slitting the throat and bleeding the animal out while the heart is still beating. There is nothing in that process that is humane.
I do my part to encourage folks to stop breeding any horses unless they already have a home for the foal. There are thousands of horses needing homes now, thousands of foals. Plenty of slaughter horses have great papers, good conformation, and the majority are young, between the ages of 2 and 6 years old, in good health and sound. It’s not just bybs that need to take a look at their breeding practices, its everyone.
If EVERYONE stops breeding, what are we left with? The crap that the irresponsible breeders breed with.
I tip my hat to those breeding ‘for the future of the breed’… that is, using well-conformed proven quality individuals with prepotent pedigrees. THESE are the horses that I HOPE will go on to represent the breeds in the coming years… not the ill-conformed bred-for-color-or-because-they-were-high-percentage-foundation crap that gets marketed TOO MUCH these days.
So while it’s ‘rosy and sweet’ to think that the big breeders are the ones doing this to the market – think again. They are the ones supplying decent horses to the folks that know enough to choose wisely. True, there are several small breeders doing the same thing. But if you breed QUALITY that is competitive with the larger named breeders, you don’t have to breed QUANTITY.
I know a ‘breeder’ who has somewhere between 9 and 12 absolutely PATHETIC in pedigree and parental conformation foals coming this year… but she’s got some of them sold.
Know why?
She’s convinced a small group of people that she knows what she’s doing and that her horses are top quality… and since the people are all ‘sheep’ and do not know enough to form their own opinions, they went ahead and bought up all her horses, even sight unseen.
Does that mean she should keep breeding, because she’s got a home for her foals?
I think not.
One of the mares on the trailer happened to stick her head out in time to have it taken off by the passing truck.
Really? She stuck her head out and it was cut off by a truck. You saw that happen? More likely your so passionate that this could happen that you made up a nice story about how it did happen. But it didn’t did it. Okay so maybe you heard about it and decided that it wasn’t really lying if you pretended you saw it because story’s sound much better. Sad, pathetic really. Then you go on to imply that hauling in anything but a full sized pick is the cause of accidents involving trailers. Where statistics on that. In fact I’ve love to see the news report from the horse head incident. Oh you don’t have any of that do you. I’ll start taking you idiots more seriously when you stop “LYING†to make your point and give sound checkable facts.
Since day one you all have pissed and moan about the state of the horse industry. Hello what did you think would happen when slaughter was ended. Oh no, that’s not the problem, it’s people breeding fuggly horses and only fuggly horses go to slaughter. Convenient don’t you think that the argument has switched from, “Healthy young useful horses are being slaughtered†to only fuggly and unwanted horses end up there. It’s amazing how that works! Just like magic. Do you all really believe people will stop breeding horses. Are you high? Stop living in a fantasy world and stop perpetuating urban legends! We’re not stupid. Okay not all of us are retarded. Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it!
thinkinghorseman said…
Since day one you all have pissed and moan about the state of the horse industry. Hello what did you think would happen when slaughter was ended. Oh no, that’s not the problem, it’s people breeding fuggly horses and only fuggly horses go to slaughter. Convenient don’t you think that the argument has switched from, “Healthy young useful horses are being slaughtered†to only fuggly and unwanted horses end up there. It’s amazing how that works! Just like magic. Do you all really believe people will stop breeding horses. Are you high? Stop living in a fantasy world and stop perpetuating urban legends! We’re not stupid. Okay not all of us are retarded. Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it!
October 5, 2007 12:19 AM
I know that not all horses slaughtered are ‘fugly’. True enough.
But are they necesasarily EXACTLY what needs to be being bred? Not really.
Now, there are exceptions, of course. But the old, the sick, the crazy, the broken down… that IS the bulk of the slaughter/auction/rescue bound animals.
The rest is the product of A.) poorly thought out irresponsible breeding programs or B.) sad victims of circumstance.
And for all the people who say that horse slaughter is ‘inhumane’… I have to laugh. Inhumane is languishing and starving to death in a pasture somewhere, or hock-deep in shit in an unventilated barn somewhere. For years and years and YEARS. A couple of days in a slaughterhouse environment is cake compared to the years of suffering many animals endure.
That’s just how I feel about it.
Don’t stop the breeding, stop the IRRESPONSIBLE breeding of PRACTICALLY UNMARKETABLE poor to mediocre quality animals.
Good horses and fugly horses go to slaughter. Who ever said different? But the root of the problem, IMO, is overbreeding of crap horses by irresponsible, ignorant BYB’s. Note I said IRRESPONSIBLE IGNORANT BYB’S. No one ever said ALL BYB’S are terrible and should be shot. LOL
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