A good horse is never a bad color, but a bad horse can be a good color: Part IV, Grullas
Sep 18 2007
I’ve been meaning to do this one for a while. I admit I’ve personally always wanted to own a grulla, and haven’t yet. It’s a beautiful color. Like cremello and palomino, it has quite a following and plenty of people trying to breed specifically for the color…sometimes without a whole lot of thought to anything else.
Let’s start with a nice example of a grulla. This is a young filly who’s still growing, so the fact that she’s downhill is understandable. She’s got a great shoulder. She’s compact and well balanced with a nice hip, and a neck that is well defined and elegant. It’s low set, but you want that in a stock breed pleasure horse – it makes it easy for them to carry themselves as desired for western pleasure. She has an attractive head and her pasterns are pretty much ideal – sloping and not too long. She is a bit tied in below the knee and looks like she may toe out a bit but it’s not extreme. Overall, I really like this filly and her excellent coloring is just the icing.
By the way, it’s also a good example of a non pro picture where the horse still looks good – she’s not clipped or posed – in fact, she’s sleeping, but she’s still a quality horse in good weight and condition and that shines through.
I’d place this guy in the middle of the pack. If you like foundation quarter horses, he’s a pretty decent example of one. He’s compact (which many foundation breds are not), he’s got a great shoulder (which many foundation breds do not), his neck is attached nicely though it’s short, and he’s got good bone. Although I can’t see the feet, I can pretty much tell you those aren’t 00′s down there. He looks like he is built to last and built to work.
All right – now on to what this blog is all about. Fuuuugly grullas!
All I can say about this 3 year old is that hallelujah, he is a gelding! Despite the strong resemblance to some inbred mustang off an indian reservation, this is a registered Quarter Horse. Um, eek.
Oh…my. This is a QH/Fjord/Standardbred/Arab cross broodmare. Are you wondering WHY? WHY? WHY? Oh trust me, we all are. I don’t know about her, but I am affraid she is pregnant and reproducing her fugliness! Be affraid, be very affraid!
And who are these people who post that the mare MIGHT be in foal? Call out the damn vet, you freakin’ cheapskate. It’s not exactly a budget buster to check for pregnancy.
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TARPAN??!! I know of a TAPIR which lives in Africa (SA?) and IS related to the horse; stripey legs, long snout like an anteater. If you scroll down Dreamhorse’s list of breeds it does not list “tarpa” and I thought ANYthing could get on that site if you’ve got $20.
WHY do people breed such offbeat critters when the various pure breeds and well-thought-out crosses can fulfill any horsey job?
Farmers wife- wonder if the Arab nationals in October is around the same time. They are no longer held in KY and I believe they are moving to OKC.
Ours (Arabs) alternated between NM and KY every year. Sport Horse Nationals in September are the same way, Virginia one year and Idaho the next.
CutNJump said…
“Oh Where, Oh Where, Can our Fugly leader be???”
I’m guessing she maybe took a few days off work for the move and doesn’t have internet access during the move… because you know how you get everything organized and then the phone company doesn’t show up, or the cable company can’t get the internet feed to work on your computer?
My 2 cents. Whatever the problem is I hope it’s nothing serious.
CutNJump the Arabian nationals will be moving to Tulsa next year. This year’s convention will be there so people can get a look at the new facility.
As for sport horse nationals, Idaho is not a given for next year, there is a move underfoot to get it moved to southern Calif, right off the LA freeway, no less. Also a big move going on to get that show permanently moved to the Kentucky Horse Park with no rotation at all.
As for the topic of breeding for color or patterns, anytime that is the only criteria for breeding things can get very messy and the outcome can be well……….fugly, of course.
You all can bop on over and read my blog too, some of the same issues as our dear hostess here.
Besides, no one has been brave enough to leave a comment, yet, HA!
http://suvalley.blogspot.com/
R Rainbow- I know they had moved it, but I couldn’t remember where to.
Sad thing about the shows is when they find one place that works seemingly well, they end up getting ‘bumped’ and wind up somewhere else.
Such is life…
Em said…
It gets better http://www.tarpanassociation.com/sales.html
Well this is certainly a new one on me. LOL Wonder how they brought them back from extinction.
Maybe aliens abducted some stock a few centuries ago and then returned the offspring back to earth.
Farmers wife- Did you mean the horse in the EVAHA pics, when you said nice youngster? I’m not sure how old Junior is, but I am guessing around 8 or 9-ish. He acts like a youngster though and we encourage that.
Dear CutNJump,
Hmm, maybe it’s those durned Arabs that prevent us from expanding the Morgan Nationals by two more days. I know we come in immediately after they break down the Oklahoma State Fair. Can’t wait to see the improvements though I’ll probably get lost as my brain is programmed to walk from our stalls to the ready ring to the office to the ingate…..As well, this ol’ dog must learn new tricks.
Also, you said it right about stock breeds showing as driving horses!!! You are correct that proper draft for the horse usually requires that the shafts be horizontal with the ground, and the traces should follow that line also. In a breastcollar harness this reduces the weight of the vehicle on the saddle & girth assembly. Slightly different parameters for a neckcollar & gig, but balance is key in an equippage.
And the overcheck—-it’s there for a reason and now don’t all the Black Beauty types jump on me for this. First, a good harness horse will put no strain on the overcheck because he will be appropriately upheaded and collected. If he does dive in his bridle the overcheck is insurance against a TOO low head carriage where he can get a hing leg up over the shafts either by accidnet or design. In training this is usually accomplished by using a kicking strap that goes from one shaft, up over the top of the rump and down to the other shaft. Properly adjusted neither of these items impede or overstress a horse BUILT TO wear harness.
Where folk get into trouble is buying a cardboard harness off Ebay, throwing it over Trigger’s back and figuring out some say to fasten all those buckles and come out even. You can tell a true neophyte because they usually back the horse into the shafts rather than bringing the cart to the horse (“putting to” in carriage lingo).
True, carriage horses as opposed to show horses do not wear an overcheck and have lower carriage generally, but they are carefully TRAINED to it and it can be a task to get a frisky hottie to settle to carriage work.
My gripe is that stock breeds don’t LOOK like harness horses. They can’t go chasing cows or doing sliding stops pulling a phaeton!
I’ll stop now, and again recommend that site I posted about a hundred posts ago of the king of harness horses, the Morgan!
I just spoke to our FHOTD leader. She wanted me to let you all know that has finished moving but has not gotten her computer set up yet due to some technical difficulties. She is going through internet hell right now….
Knowing her, she is in complete withdrawal about now.
Farmers wife- I couldn’t get it to work, but I do like seeing a good morgan in action.
I grew up on the back of a relatives part morgan mare. She was big. I would swear she was as long as a city bus, and a couple of blocks wide. He rode, packed and hunted off her and the rest of his herd. They went all over the mountains.
She could also be mighty willful and stubborn which is what a young willful, stubborn kid needs to learn to ride on.
If she thought things were going her way or her idea, she was all for it. Convincing her otherwise sometimes took some doing and strong persuasion skills.
Hooray for Dontyouridenofugly for bringing us all the update. Please let FHOTD know we are all still here, waiting patiently, and playing nicely.
I hope the picture worked. I tried to add my Psyndi Loo Whoo. Let me know what ya’ll think of her. This was last year when she was starting out under saddle.
Dear CutNJump, well you called him Junior so I assumed he was a kid (or the hubby was), or something….
Nice to hear the update on FHOTD and we have been playing nicely with others, haven’t we, considering some of us are rather hotblooded (ahem). No running with scissors now or throwing sand until our fearless leader returns. We are like a horde of Huns without our Attilla.
Hm, while we’re waiting for FHOTD to come back, here’s another “new breed” to pick apart:
http://www.blazerhorses.com/
“Blazers” appear to be a stock breed cultivated in Idaho, and tracing back to a long-lived stallion named (oddly enough) Blazer… who covered his last mare at age 34 and lived for 5 more years after that. They’re not all fugly either!
Actually, I only know about them because one of the volunteers at the barn where I take lessons has loaned them her Blazer gelding for the therapeutic riding program. He’s a nice looking little guy; one initially notices his beautiful chocolate palomino color and wavy mane and tail, but there’s a good looking horse or pony (he’s 13.3 hands) there, too.
His owner met him on a dude ranch, rode him for 5 days there, and was impressed enough to buy him on the spot. She says he’s really smart, sane, and gentle, and “broke but not trained.” She got in touch with his breeder who said he’d been ridden about 7 times before he went to the dude ranch; she was the first person to ride him after that, and he was as good as gold for her. I’ll see if I can get a photo of him the next time I am at the barn. (She has him there because she already has two mares that take up all her time, so she wasn’t using him much.)
suvalley said…
You all can bop on over and read my blog too, some of the same issues as our dear hostess here.
Besides, no one has been brave enough to leave a comment, yet, HA!
http://suvalley.blogspot.com/
I’ll go read it!
Thanks! You all are welcome to read mine, too, although it’s limited to QHs, TBs and especially Tobiano Paints (The link is in my profile).
CutNJump said…
Yankeestyle-
when I orgiginally did this
Y A B
O
U C D
I think I’ll just stick with Bella Forma in the Pasos!
We typically show in two lines, (but we can show in a single line.) So, you’ll have one person on each side of the horse’s head once lined up.
Annette,
Your reply gave me a good chuckle…it’s just my luck anyway! My sister has a Paso gelding that’s good for beginners and children, but he is a VERY easy keeper. I think he’s 14 yrs old, which has been a turn off for a few people. They think he’s “too old”! Hell, my two best horses (that are not for sale) are 8 and 12. They’re just now at the age where they’re finally mellowing out!
Yes, I’m alive, and very annoyed with CenturyTel…I do not have Internet except for my Blackberry (which I can’t post to the blog with) and my friend’s ancient computer from the Paleolithic Era, which cannot handle 2 windows being open at one time. Arggggh!
The overcheck is an evil piece of equipment used in AMERICA ONLY.
Strange that isn’t it??
ONLY in America do horses need, for safety’s sake, to have their heads strained up in the air because their owners cannot be bothered to put the time into them in order to train them correctly.
Stop with the excuses it is all a load of rubbish.
If you enjoy seeing your horse in pain go and watch the TWH “Big Lick” animals, and let your harness horses have a good sound natural movement.
Far too many excuses are being handed out by people who claim to be “good horse people” and “experienced”
If you were truly either of these you would not have an over check/side check on the place.
Honestly I have never heard more garbage than the excuses made on American Harness Forums.
Hellllooo they are NOT used in Europe and I have yet to see any horse dangerously out of control as a result- and I have seen some horses with natural, good head sets.
But then, they have been trained to go into the bridle properly, which of course takes time.
And they were not in the ring as two year olds.
Get a life, for Gods sake and stop tormenting your animals just to get a ribbon.
sarcastabitch I really hate to burst your bubble, and if I knew your e-mail I could take the discussion offline and save you some embarassment.
I think you had better check out my website, and my mares here:
http://www.hiddenrockranch.com
Horses are naughty, mother nature loves to fool us and particularly where color genetics comes in, they love to laugh at us. I’m sorry you fee that ownership of Zans Moonstone (aqha/apha)for almost 10 yrs doesn’t qualify me to state the fact that she has NEVER sunburned, and in fact, she is out in the same pasture/same feed as the poor tobi mare that IS sunburned on her nose right now. The mare is out 24/7, unless she is due to foal. APHA Darling Sunny, APHA/AQHA JJM Sun Stone are two other mares I owned for extensive lengths of time. There were two other colts, one perlino and one cremello but their registered names escape me at the moment. I’d be curious to know the names of the perlinos that had the flysheets and bonnets on, where they were located, and what they were fed. There are all white overo’s and tovero’s out there in the world, and knowing the pedigree may help clear up their color status. (I owned a tovero mare, 90% white, and she certainly DID sunburn on her face and eyes badly)
On the champagne issue.. again, I’ll offer PROOF:
http://www.hiddenrockranch.com/cindy2.html
This mare is AQHA and ICHR registered, and as you scroll down thru the pictures, you will see an eye and udder shot taken about 9am this morning. The skin shot was taken the spring I first bought her, when she had shed and you could see her white markings, and her two different pink skins.
And before you try to pawn this off as a ‘one time’ situation.. the problem is about 90% of the champagnes from the Take Care O Neall line also have brown eyes. It may be a stock type only situation, (though I doubt it) but I have seen a boatload of champagnes from this line (stud is here in ks) so I DO know what the hell I am talking about, and I’m not blowing smoke up your butt. No the mare is not a dilution carrier of anything other than champagne. In fact, Morgan has lighter brown eyes, but she is still brown eyed, and IS a confirmed carrier of creme + champagne.
Amber Bartender, the amber filly, and Jodie are also brown eyed, and not hazel. Silver (MQ Miss Champagne) held onto some blueish tinge thru most of her 2 yr old year, I haven’t checked her lately to see if she still looks kindof greenish or has gone on to brown yet.
I’ll try to put together a page of champagne eye shots, if you would like, so you can check them out for yourself. Some I have foal and mature eye color shots of.
Yes, black horses fade, period. Being one of those that was around a bunch of black paint horse breeders when the craze was on, and breeding a few myself, I wanted to be sure to registered my foals accurately, and so I studied the problem pretty solidly. Black horses, and Grullo horses fade. The heat causes them the sweat, and the salt adds to the fading process. It makes a difference.
grullotobi said:
Black horses, and Grullo horses fade. The heat causes them the sweat, and the salt adds to the fading process. It makes a difference.
I can definitely back that up. My gelding that PFHA registered as Dun instead of Grullo (they have no clue about varieties of shades) and his (now gelding) sire that is black, both fade in the summer. My gelding goes from a chocolatey color to an olive color throughout the year. He is not the slate (or mouse dun) that most people think of when it comes to Grullo.
Kay said…
Here is a link to the website.
http://www.cowboymountedshooting.com/
I know a couple from the Paso world that got involved in CMS a few years ago. They bought QHs for the events. I guess they didn’t think any of their Pasos could handle it!
I saw both of their names in the point standings for this year.
kirri said:
The overcheck is an evil piece of equipment used in AMERICA ONLY.
It is only evil when used improperly. I do not agree with cranking up the head of the horse.
Properly adjusted and used it is just a reminder for the horse to keep his head up, no pain involved.
Dear Kirri and Doitright,
Must disagree with Kirri and agree with Doitright about overchecks. What-they-do-in-Europe notwithstanding, aproperly adjusted overcheck DOES NOT cause the horse pain. As I stated in my first remarks, carriage horses don’t wear them because they have a lower headset generally. Park and pleasure driving horses wear them as “reminders” to keep their heads where they belong in these animated divisions. Just today I jogged my multi-national top ten driving horse at the home barn with his overcheck adjusted so loosely it was in danger of catching under the tip of the shaft. He carried his neck upright with his face nearly verical and that overcheck flapping in the breeze. The one moment the check came in handy was when I was unhitching him and he dove for a mouthful of grass, and the check bit nudged him and he immediately raised his head. After his rinse down he was let out to graze on a long lead and he knows perfectly well that this is his relaxing time and no check involved, only his old halter.
Believe me, Kirri, our harness horses are trained slowly and carefully. In fact, I have a short 3-year-old who I was hoping would make his harness debut last month. He’s wearing leather in the bitting harness, has dragged tires, been put to a few times, but he has big teeth bumps and he is mentally young, so we are letting him down for the winter and will start again come spring.
Doitright is correct—a trained horse and a properly fitted overcheck cause ne pain. Those who believe otherwise believe Black Beauty is gospel. An overcheck does not FORCE a head up.
I’ll stop now…
GrulloTobi said, “Yes, black horses fade, period. Being one of those that was around a bunch of black paint horse breeders when the craze was on, and breeding a few myself, I wanted to be sure to registered my foals accurately, and so I studied the problem pretty solidly. Black horses, and Grullo horses fade. The heat causes them the sweat, and the salt adds to the fading process. It makes a difference.”
I can attest to the fact that black horses do fade. These photos are of a black mare (by the very black AQHA stallion, A Challenger) and her 2006 black foal by my stallion, and her 2007 foal, with the black mare’s Overo dam next to them. When they were not out in the heat of the summer (this was an August photo), they were as black as black can be, with no brown anywhere.
Black Mare
sarcastabitch I really hate to burst your bubble, and if I knew your e-mail I could take the discussion offline and save you some embarassment.
You’re not embarassing me, you’re doing the exact same thing that I am, and that’s why I keep getting you to do it. You and a lot of other horse “breeders” continually cite examples of horses you’ve “known” and expect other people to consider it proof of a universal phenomenon. That’s not science. That’s backyard garbage.
Owning a specific color of horse for ten years doesn’t make you qualified to do anything, nor does watching a bunch of horses NOT sunburn. Just like my experience with two sunburning perlinos doesn’t make me an expert on perlinos.
Doesn’t change the fact that all perlinos that I have known have been useless and sunburnt. Besides skin problems, I think they are just plain UGLY.
Stop citing your own website as “proof”…I don’t find it compelling now, and I won’t.
I can attest to the fact that black horses do fade. These photos are of a black mare (by the very black AQHA stallion, A Challenger) and her 2006 black foal by my stallion, and her 2007 foal, with the black mare’s Overo dam next to them. When they were not out in the heat of the summer (this was an August photo), they were as black as black can be, with no brown anywhere.
Are they tested black, no agouti?
That’s what I am curious about.
As many of you can SAY that you’ve known fading black horses, I have heard just as many people claim that a truly (genetically, Ee aa or EE aa) black horse will never fade.
That’s why I asked.
I am pretty sure that my mare is a true black, but like I said, she turns almost red-bay in the spring…but her undercoat stays black. She’s not tested though, so that’s not exactly proof.
grullotobi,
This is from the ICHR website:
“There is currently no test for champagne, so that must be determined by appearance, pedigree, and the process of elimination.”
With that very definitive statement, and the fact that many horses who are “champagne” will have been registered incorrectly for generations…no wonder the real breed associations require amber/hazel eye color in addition to the other “markers”…in the absence of other compelling evidence of “champagne”.
And to enroll in the ICHR, you only need to send in photos? Is that true?
sarcastabitch said, “Are they tested black, no agouti? That’s what I am curious about.”
Yes. Absolutely no Agouti. The mare and my stallion are Ee/aa; no test result on the colt yet for Agouti, but I suspect he is aa also. The three of them (the mare, the colt, and my stallion) are a few of the horses being tested right now by geneticists regarding black horses who appear to be brown or seal brown (with no Agouti, no mealy nose). My stallion has never been brown, although they wanted genetic material from a “family”. No results yet.
The three of them (the mare, the colt, and my stallion) are a few of the horses being tested right now by geneticists regarding black horses who appear to be brown or seal brown (with no Agouti, no mealy nose).
That’s exciting!
Maybe the JC has it right after all…there is no “black” only “brown” that can look black.
When will you start to get results?
sarcastabitch said, “That’s exciting!
Maybe the JC has it right after all…there is no “black” only “brown” that can look black.
When will you start to get results?”
I’m not so sure about the JC’s position on that. There used to be a “brown” color designation in their registry, and now, it’s dk b or br. Same with gray or roan, even though it’s possible to distinguish between them. They also have on their official records, two sires of a foal, if a mare was exposed to more than one stallion in a single season. Even if the sire was a grey and the foal was a grey, they would not use the proper sire as the official sire; only the one that the mare was bred to last. They still list both as the sire of the foal. And, I don’t know when I’ll get the results of those tests – I thought I would have them by now, but that study doesn’t take priority over the paying customers for other genetic testing.
sarcasta said:
“And to enroll in the ICHR, you only need to send in photos? Is that true?”
Nope, Carolyn does require you to send photos, but she will NOT register on photo’s alone. Pedigree and more is studied. She’s more of a stickler than I am. E-mail ICHR and ask her. If she ain’t sure, it goes into Temp status.
Look I GET the fact that many breeders of horses don’t have a clue as to their color. Problem is that isn’t me. It is a pet pieve of mine to call something a color it isn’t, annal is not even the begining of it as far as colors for me.
If the fact that I’ve actually owned, studied, and tested (and disproven! sometimes!) my theories doesn’t begin to hold water with you, then basically you are in the same boat as a fugly breeder.. not willing to look at your own held ideas and see where they may need improvement. If you haven’t actually owned the perlino’s you say sunburned, and you don’t have pictures of them, don’t have the registered name so we can verify the color thru pedigree, then I don’t understand how you can say your statement has more weight than mine.
Have you bothered to go to the http://www.doubledilute.com site and go thru their FAQ’s? how about asked ANY other perlino/cremello owners on if their horses sunburn?
Have you owned or raised Champagne horses???? I’m certain I don’t know everything about how the color expresses, but I do know more than someone who has only ever see pictures of one… and I can guarantee you I know more about them than any Breed organizations registry, up to and including AQHA/APHA and the TWH registry, which has a wonderful, colorful, and checkered past on calling a walker a color it isn’t.. and allowing spontaneious tobiano /buckskin/ overo mutations to show up, and you don’t have to take my word on that either, ask their own color guru, Elsie Darrah, who can be found here:http://www.lastchancefarm.com/
You have good info and view points on some of your other information, I hate to see that you hold dear information that is in serious error.
GrulloTobi said, “Nope, Carolyn does require you to send photos, but she will NOT register on photo’s alone. Pedigree and more is studied. She’s more of a stickler than I am. E-mail ICHR and ask her. If she ain’t sure, it goes into Temp status.”
I know Carolyn (or rather, have known her via email for several years). She knows her stuff about Champagne horses (and Tobianos, too). She’s a hoot. And very intelligent, too.
Have you ever seen an AQHA Champion that was a grulla?
How about in any of the AQHA legend books… any grullas?
How about at any of the big futurities… cutting, reining, working cow horse?
Just curious… if these horses are so good and people keep breeding the crap out of them, why don’t they take them out and DO something with them?
That’s what I thought.
I’m not trying to be prejudiced, but it seems like grulla color = poor quality animal.
I know there are exceptions… so SHOW THEM! C’mon people!
and thor has not bred every thing get your bloody storys right.
thor has only bred 1 mare before getting gelded wich was a bloody accident you moron, if you dont know the whole story you should keep your mouth shut.
you guys are a bunch of morons.
And also we have raise pure breds but sold them all and we are not halter people.we ride our horses through the bush we hunt off of them .we are not clicky.
not all people are show people.
you must keep all your bloody opinoins to your self.
we do not judge and we are not the jury.
people ride and raise horses for the love of it not to be high and mighty.
if you only raise one or two types of horse thats your opinoin we love all horses breeds color they are horses. its like you can discrimate about the breed or color of people that is against the law. so who that hell are you to discrimate against breeds of a horse a person raises.
abvosily you are discrimatory and you should sweep your own porch before you sweep mine.
Gary
so fuglyhorsedumbassof the day
you started all this why what the hell have we done to you .
do we even know you have we met you so what have we done to harm you.
you shouldnt be doing this to people especially if you dont know them or their horses.
you are are F——- instatgater and you deibertly hurt people.
for what you are so clicky and think you are better, good luck dumbass what comes around goes around i gather you will get your just desserts by someone else.
and there isnt any thing wrong with my horses. who the hell do you think you are going around hurting people bwecause what you have a bloody opinoin on a breed or a color.
blow it out your ear.
i hope you get yours in return.
pay backs are a b—–
and you think that thor is Grey how can you get a grey from a dunskin x sorrel.
Thor is a palomino he isnt grey.
Annie is a grulla – Dun x Grulla
Dumb you are really dumb.
Annie is a awesome horse who gives a Sh– on what you think of her alot of people like her up here in Canada so who do yopu think you are and we have NO REASON to come on this stupid website and listen to this crap you have too much time on your hands .
get a life. and leave me and my wife and our horses alone.
oh by the way you will be charged for stealing pictures off my website they are copyright. and its a federal offence for taken pictures with out permission.
Deneze and gary
Yay, more “my feelings are hurt, I’m going to sue” crap!
Guess what!
The internet is considered wide-open territory.
FHOTD’s standpoint on that sort of comment has always been ‘bring it on, bitches!’…
So, I’ll go ahead and back her up.
Do your homework and realize what’s what when it comes to confOrmation and SPELLING before you go calling ANYBODY a moron… that’s for sure.
It’s called FireFox it does the spelling FOR YOU. Then again, you probably don’t know how to download it and are still working in IE. I think it MAY help you spell. The punctuation…. now that, may not be helped by anything.
Seriously. You don’t have to be a SHOW person to understand quality or the need for papers to keep a horse away from slaughter. You obviously don’t think about the big picture.
Suing. You could, of course. However, you would need a lawyer that specializes in international tort law. Those are quite expensive. This, is, of course because you are out of the country. It would be ground breaking if you did it, but the legal team would cost you millions.
You also can’t put someone in prison for it. It’s tort law – not criminal or even quasi-criminal.
Geld your fuglies and get some helmets for the kids.