The HYPP apologist of the day!
Sep 14 2007
Believe it or not, the American Halter Horse Association actually does have a sponsor who intended to sponsor them (as opposed to the other companies that were shocked to find out that they were on the web site). It’s a company called USA Embroidery which customizes things like shirts and jackets and caps.
Here’s their representative Ric Banks’ e-mail to someone who complained about their endorsement of an organization that bars nothing from registration based upon its genetic defects (although he seems to be using someone named Wendy’s e-mail). I will let his writing style speak for itself. My comments in blue.
Dear (name),
Thank you very much for taking the time to email us and we have noted your concerns, HOWEVER i also bred and show halter horses and i test every one of them before breeding as do most of the top breeders in the USA and other countries. (You test them but does that make you stop breeding them? There’s the question.) Education is a much better tool than slander. (For the one millionth time, it is only slander if it is not true. The AHHA has their rules on their web site for all to see, I didn’t make this stuff up about them gleefully registering horses with genetic defects.) The American Halter Horse Assoc. takes pride in promoting Top Quality breeders and trainer. (If by top quality, you mean those who breed HYPP positive horses!) IN ALL events and breed of animals there will always be those sthat do not care and will always do as they please regardless of the outcome. (You’re right, but if you bar them from registration and showing, there will be no financial incentive for them to breed genetically defective animals and they will stop. The AHHA is doing the opposite.) Stopping to purchase items from me has no affect on the industry , I am here to educate the pros and cons of the industry, (If you care about the industry, you do not endorse organizations that allow the registration of horses that have been banned from their OWN registry for a REASON) I can help you however are hurting the industry with your all negative ideas (Like that horses shouldn’t have to flail around on the ground gasping for air when it’s totally avoidable? Why, how very negative of her.) , First find the problem then find the solution, case closed. (We have found the problem and the solution is NOT BREEDING any H/H or N/H horses. However, the AHHA provides a way to AVOID the solution, and you have endorsed them by advertising proudly on their web site.) HH horses are no longer allowed to be used in a breeding program if you had all the fact you would however already know this. (You are the clueless one. AQHA does not allow H/H horses to be registered anymore. Other registries still do, and the AHHA allows them to breed and show with no restrictions.) And not all NH horse show signs, should we put them down because of the lineage? (No, but we should not BREED them and having an association that encourages that is ridiculous.) Do we do that to our children when they have health issues, or defects, I think not, we love them anyway and we care for them for the rest of their lives and beyond. (Um, apples and oranges but if you want to get into a debate with me about whether or not it’s ethical to reproduce if you know you carry a severe genetic defect, I’d take the same side I take with the horses.) If given a CHANCE The American Halter Horse can and will make changes to the industry to help promote good and quality breedings among their members. (By their policy that they will register horses with any genetic defect at all? That promotes good and quality breeding?) I AM VERY PROUD TO BE A MEMBER AND A SPONSOR for The American Halter Horse Assoc. (Potential customers: Take note!) This is a group that can make a difference, you ask me why?or how? (No, I don’t ask how. I know how they will make a difference – they will help perpetuate a fatal genetic defect well into the future that we could stamp out in thirty years except for people like you.) Because this group is made up of concerned adn caring breeders like myself. (Your concern is touching. It makes me want to tie you to a chair and watch that video of that mare gasping for air while her foal runs around her about 65,216 times in a row.) Again Thanks for your time and i request your spend more time finding answers to the problems rather than writing evil emails, as we know they serve no purpose. (WE HAVE AN ANSWER TO THE PROBLEM…it’s called NOT BREEDING any N/H or H/H horses. It’s not like this is a MYSTERY!) Just for the record I work for over 20 years for the State Vet. (No…comment) I know somewhat about what i am writing about..Again Thanks Ric Banks USA EMBROIDERY.( Proud Sponsor of AHHA..)
FHOTD: It’s just unbelievable, isn’t it? They don’t get it. They don’t get it at all.
One generation of not breeding these things and the ENTIRE DISEASE would be GONE.
There are no variables here. No mysteries.
Just greedy jackasses that don’t want to do the right thing when there’s money to be made doing the wrong thing!
112 comments to “The HYPP apologist of the day!”
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“(Your concern is touching. It makes me want to tie you to a chair and watch that video of that mare gasping for air while her foal runs around her about 65,216 times in a row.)”
a la A Clockwork Orange?
Oiy Vey!
I like how on the homepage the AHHA also notes they keep track of a horses performance record, yet none of these horses appear to be able to retain any degree of soundness under even the lightest working conditions, let alone the fact the ones who are carriers and/or symptomatic could suffer a seizure at any time.
Wow, I so NOT IMPRESSED.
What an unprofessional letter! Maybe instead of sponsoring the AHHA, he should take that money and hire a decent secretary!
im never buying anything from USAEmbroidery……ever. or any product that they have embroidered.
er, I’m so not impressed, laugh, guess I need a secretary!
FHotD, your blog is seriously causing me to be unproductive!!! But it’s so interesting!! And where do these people come from? Facts, logic, reality apparently do not enter the picture.
I must get BACK TO WORK!!!!!!
I don’t understand how people can truly be that ignorant…it’s not freaking rocket science!!!!! My family has owned and raised Quarter horses back to the days when Foundation wasn’t a dirty word. How can they promote these poor wretched creatures that can hardly even walk??? THEY ARE ALL FREAKS OF NATURE–if by some accident they were put back INTO a ‘natural’ setting…they would perish!! Put those muscle bound freaks in front of a mountain lion, and they’re going to be horsey tar tar in nothing flat! Even worse, jerk 300 pounds off, and they might be able to move fast enough to scatter their own shit….and then be dead shot lame on all four legs as a result!!
Went the the website for this company and the EquiFEST in KS is listed as the “Equifeast” on their schedule. Thought that was humorous. Didn’t bother to look at the rest of the site, and sure won’t be giving them any business!
By the way, I believe someone had said that they were going to contact Heartland Veterinary Supply about their banner on the AHHA website….any word back yet on whether they are “real” sponsors of the AHHA? Marestare is still showing…are they sponsors?
Very Very Sad. Well, we might hit 400 posts on this topic too.. the people that defend breeding positive horses have all sorts of reasons to justify why they should be able to.
Most people don’t think it is right to breed genetic defects, and certainly not possibly FATAL ones, and N/H horses DO die, even with the BEST of care, and you can’t tell WHEN the big attack may come. (ask show managers that have one keel over in the ring at shows.. yes that does happen) They don’t need to ever experience an horse having an attack to come to that conclusion.
No, I have never owned one. YES I have see at least 3 horses having HYPP attacks, and the fear and pain in their eyes is a terrible thing to see.
And I’ll mention the H/H one that sounded like Darth Vader after just 1/2 a lap around the round pen at a fast walk.
I understand loving your horse, I understand wanting Dauber to give you a foal because they were your first horse ever.. I don’t understand why avoiding suffering for ANY animal you are responsible for is not the top priority. If you give them the best vet/medical/hoof care you can, why would you then deliberatly bring one into the world with a disease that could kill them? When there are SO many other horses already here and just as worthy without the disease? N/H breeders are able to justify this, I just can’t.
Fugly should lump all the HYPP articles together and sell it as a book “Why we’re not Impressed with Impressive horses”.
HYPP has literally become a thing of nightmares for me now (thanks a lot, Fugly. Kidding. Better to know about the horrors than to be oblivious!) I swear I have to jump online and look up lineage every time I see a QH so much as twitch a shoulder. I still can’t believe that it is not against EVERY registrations rules, as well as considered illegal ANIMAL CRUELTY to breed an animal with such a terrible disease.
Has anyone read the article in this months WESTERN HORSEMAN about slaughter? (please read the article, these aren’t EXACT quotes, but gives you the basic idea of what is said in PART of the article) in the article, it is stated that HALTER HORSES really DON’T serve any purpose, that Halter breeders are breeding for the slaughter houses.
Words fail me except for…clueless.
Wildcaballo – Well, the existence of AQHA Champions shows that there are horses who both halter and ride.
However, you do not see as many of them today as you used to…thanks to halter being specialized into an end in itself. Very sad.
Hm, perhaps if there were a few more people letting them know they won’t be buying their products until they stop supporting the knowing breeding of horrific genetic defects… *puts on her “smart” glasses and begins writing email*
Okay, I would like an opinion on my letter before I send it off, if you don’t mind…
I am writing to let you know that I am very disappointed with your decision to support the American Halter Horse Association, which supports the breeding of confirmed HYPP positive horses. As you know, this is a devastating disease that could be prevented if only careless breeding were discouraged. A concerned and caring breeder does not intentionally breed horses that will suffer excruciatingly during their short lives. This disease could be completely eradicated in ONE generation if only selfish breeders would think about the poor animals they are bringing into the world. By allowing HYPP H/N and H/H horses to register and compete, the American Halter Horse Association is only providing incentive for irresponsible breeders to continue their ways.
Because I care about horses and their health, I will not be buying your product again unless and until you withdraw support for this organization.
Thank you very much,
Katheryn Lastname
Is this guy on the BOD??
He HAS to be financially tied the society in some way or he would not be this stupid, surely??
As to not hurting him financially by not buying his products- he OBVIOUSLY has never watched that wonderful short film about how an landslide starts- a tiny, tiny trickle of rocks, pebbles, just two or three almost ambling along!!! By the time it hits the bottom of the mountain it is taking out ROADS.
Does he REALLY want to test us??
I do not understand how people who are so illiterate get to be in positions of power (I am still wondering how Bush got elected though………)
“I know somewhat about what i am writing about”
I do not think I have ever seen English tied in that many knots before!!
And, Yes, I am a prude (about English) but I have no problem with the general “spoken” English we get on here- it is when people are being POMPOUS I get shirty!!!
I breed halter horses. I love halter horses….N/N, balanced, pretty, form to function halter horses! I am fond of the Impressive line and have a good bit of it here…all are tested N/N. We do not breed outside mares that are HYPP positive, period. We ride our halter horses and want them to have a long, sound useful life. I am far from alone in this. However, this kind of hogwash puts a black eye on the entire industry. This new halter based organization reads like the Statue of Liberty “Give us everything your original registry said was DEFECTIVE and unregisterable and we will welcome them with open arms” Ugh. If I read one more person justify the continued purposeful perpetuation of HYPP using humans as a comparison I may vomit. HUMANS AND HORSES ARE NOT THE SAME! WE ARE NOT BREEDING AND SELLING HUMANS! HUMANS MAKE THEIR OWN “BREEDING” DECISIONS! Horses do not choose their mate (on a real breeding farm – BYB loose stud does not apply here!) Humans are responsible for the HYPP spread! Impressive was an awesome sire and with his popularity and shipped semen……its everywhere. I have the utmost respect for someone such as the gentleman I’m about to reference. He had arguably one of the toughest bands of broodmares for hundreds of miles. Absolutely breathtaking animals. When HYPP was named and a test created, all of his mares were positive. These mares represented a lifetime of investment. Know what? He never bred them again, nor did he sell them for fear someone else would. THAT will forever impress me and speaks volumes for his character as a breeder. Arguing HYPP in the halter horse world is the equivalent of beating your head against a rock. Those who breed it will defend their right to do so with their dying breath. The gentleman from this sponsor company sounds just like one of them. No amount of rational reasoning will cause him to rethink his position…perhaps plummeting sales will.
that’s just depressing.
We have a 20 y/o HYPP-symptomatic mare at my local barn. Her conformation isn’t great, but she’s got a really cute face, and nice personality. The first thing you notice about her is the fact that her front knees look like *enormous* grapefruits. It’s because she’s seized, fallen forward and fractured them so many times. It’s not the owner of the barns fault, – he didn’t “create” her, (although I’m not sure 20 years ago knowledge about HYPP wasn’t as prevalent as it is today? Help me out here?) I don’t know any of her back story except the owner of the barn got her at some point and has spent god awful amounts of money on her medical treatment and hand walks her every day. That’s good people. If you want to see pics of her and her horrendous knees I can send you some if you email me: staceirene@yahoo.com
That “man” can’t educate himself out of a paper bag!
HIGHLY unprofessional…. but then being associated with the AH/HA I wouldn’t expect more.
The explanation of the whole mindset there is MONEY. Plain and simple. These people say they have lifetimes invested in their programs, so they will make any excuse they can to justify continuing this line of thinking. They are no more concerned for the welfare of the horse than the man who pulls the trigger at the slaughterhouse.
There are STILL breeders breeding N/H to N/H, even though AQHA will no longer register H/H foals as of 2007. Mmmm. Wonder where those H/H foals are going to end up? Could it possibly be at one of the new Halter Horse or Conformation Association shows? And these same people criticize those who breed OLWS to OLWS, or HERDA carriers.
Wow. The stupidity of people absolutely floors me. I suggest sending him the link to that post and tell him to read the comments.
As someone who had to put her beloved, 25 y/o gelding down when he had neurological seizures, I’m appalled that people are breeding animals who are prone to something similar.
My horse was an Arabian, and I had him almost 21 years with no prior problems. He had a single seizure back in November, and I promised him if it happened again, I’d have him put down.
In July he had 3 seizures, and during the first one he fell so hard he broke his pelvis. I wasn’t going to try and “salvage” him, and put him out of his obvious misery.
I can’t imagine breeding a horse KNOWING you have the potential to prevent something like this, yet going ahead anyway.
It truly boggles my mind. Poor horses. Stupid, retarded humans.
Here is a HYPP positive show horse for you (gelding thank goodness)
My favorite part of the ad was this “Prime Time Kid is HYPP positive, but as a bonus he is insured for more than 3 1/2 times his sale price! Don’t miss this chance to buy a winner!!”
http://fortcollins.craigslist.org/grd/419754982.html
Yesterday evening, I was chatting with some horse folks. A few people in the conversation I already knew, a few I’d just met.
They were discussing buying a QH mare from a fella who’d represented her as open this past year.
She was dripping milk.
She had no papers, but was reportedly “all QH, just a mass of muscles, good-lookin’ mare.”
They wanted her for a “barrel horse.”
Apalled, I stuttered out–”So, this guy obviously is misrepresenting her in at least one aspect, you don’t know her lineage at all, and she has no papers. Do you think she might have no papers because she is HYPP positive?!”
They looked at me, said, “She’d clean up at barrels around here, for sure,” as though I’d never spoken and continued to discuss plans for purchasing her.
Turned their backs, and excluded obnoxious, being-all-incoveniently-rational-me from the rest of the conversation.
This post brings to mind one of my favorite sayings: I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.
Too bad we can’t MAKE them understand. Apparently, they refuse.
The FORUM has been UNLOCKED On AHHA!
Shall we blast them again and see how ling until it is all locked up?
Obviously he’s another greed asshat irresponsible breeder. It seems they stick together.
Natrlhorse said:
Here is a HYPP positive show horse for you (gelding thank goodness)
My favorite part of the ad was this “Prime Time Kid is HYPP positive, but as a bonus he is insured for more than 3 1/2 times his sale price! Don’t miss this chance to buy a winner!!”
I can’t believe these idiots are marketing this horse as “the ultimate amateur or youth all-around horse!” Don’t they know ANYTHING about this disease? Sure, it’ll be great when some kid’s parents buy this horse and it suddenly has an attack while the kid is riding it. Morons.
they still have Maids Dream on there as a sponsored stud though he’s now deceased and the ad still says live cover avail. I could see if they still shipped frozen, but live..?
I hate stupid people.
nuf said.
ah… another ahha advertiser:
http://www.heartlandvetsupply.com/
I own Quarter Horses and a friend of mine who I trail ride with owns halter horses. She has N/H and N/N horses (none of them have lost breed papers because AQHA still allows HYPP N/H). She has one mare who is N/H and is 23 who has NEVER been symptomatic, she is not lame and will probably outlive my non impressive bred horse!
She shows her horses until they are three, her husband then takes them and turns them into performance horses. He ropes on them and she has won Western Pleasure classes on them.
For those that think they sit around with navicular disease on tiny limbs, they don’t (at least hers don’t). She is a responsible breeder who follows AQHA guidelines and she never breeds a N/H to an N/H (this is up to the breeder, not an association!). AQHA is the only registry that has taken the stance on H/H, all the others believe it should be up to what each breeder wants to conform to. I had never heard of the AHHA until today when I did a google search and found this blog. I’m glad I did because the horses on here look a whole lot better that all the other horses everyone else is so proud of from this site….
I wanted to find out this AHHA’s stance on genetic issues, so I emailed them:
Greetings Emory,
Below is information from another concerned halter enthusiast who had the same question.
Please let us know if we can be of any further information or assistance.
Best Regards
Christie
American Halter Horse Association
P.O. Box 227
Merit, TX 75458
HalterHorse.org
***********************************
Greetings Julie,
Thank you for emailing us, your comments are important. We think there must be some misunderstanding because AHHA’s registration process does not and will not replace breed papers. AHHA registers horses for competition only. Horses are judged according to breed standards. We are not nor will we be a registrar to replace or undermine a breeds standards. Horses must be healthy before they can be presented to a judge.
If a dwarf miniature was presented in a class and was lame, had a parrot mouth or they were crypt orchid, they will be dismissed from the class, and so on for any other health or conformation standard. If a horse who was even suspected to be symptomatic for HYPP, they will be dismissed from the class, and so on for every other breed.
The AHHA will work with the breed associations and judges in their breed to ensure halter standards are followed for that breed. All breeds should be judged according to their balance, conformation, breed character, sex character, muscle, refinement, travel, show and the animals overall control. The conformation standards for a POA would be significantly different than those of a draft breed or stock breed.
The AHHA does not and will not limit itself to stock horse breeds. We have received numerous emails commenting on how horses can be shown in hand (TB and many others!), which their association does not allow, who wants to show with us because they love to present their horse(s). We will create classes and allow all horses to compete and be judged according to their breed standards as mentioned above. We understand the importance of the diseases you mentioned prior, but just to assure you we will not allow unhealthy horses to compete and we will work with breed standards. We can not express this enough.
We have also received emails from individuals who have rescued horses and would like to compete but they have no breed papers. We will allow these horses to register for competition and they will be judged according to their breed standard. AHHA is not promoting HYPP, we are promoting an all-breed competition process.
Please let us know if we can be of any further information or assistance. Have a blessed day.
Best Regards
Christie
American Halter Horse Association
P.O. Box 227
Merit, TX 75458
HalterHorse.org
—–Original Message—–
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 10:49 PM
Subject: Classified Board Message from: Emory
You’ve got a Message from: Emory
===================================
What is your stance on genetic defects?
Hands up anyone who thinks insurance companies are staffed by dummies who will hand out three and a half times the amount a horse is worth merely because that is the sum of money it has been insured for?????
I just had a thought…
Since the guy from Embroidery USA doesn’t think that there is strength in numbers, why don’t we find out?
Why don’t we all write to our breed registries of choice- Morgans, Arabians, Walkers, etc. and the clubs which sponsor the big shows that they may even think of attending as vendors. If we inform them all of who this guy is supporting (AHHA) and what they are in turn promoting. Maybe threaten to pull our horses out of the ring, and retracting class sponsorship, memberships, etc. if he is allowed to attend or sell anything at said show…
I think he will either quickly change his tune to save his business or essentially be shut down. Either way a little less scum will be in the pond.
She is a responsible breeder who follows AQHA guidelines and she never breeds a N/H to an N/H
But n/h to n/n can STILL pass on HYPP. The odds are lower, but what’s the point?
Why is it so difficult to just not breed anything h/h or n/h?
Even n/h horses who go for YEARS without incident can still have an attack. They can still pass on the potential for that in their offspring. Why not KNOCK it out by NOT breeding anything that carries it?
Natrlhorse- it would be interesting to find out who the policy is carried through and contact them to inform them of the increased chances this horse will drop dead long before his time, and they will be paying out on a horse nowhere near the value on the claim.
AS owners they could lose the policies on all their horses if the agent is a reputable and respectable one.
They are talking about AHHA on A White Horse as well. Maybe they should be directed here to join in?
http://www.awhitehorse.com/horsesmouth/index.php?s=89a1a364669bda123d14656cff16f5c0&showtopic=10707&st=0&#entry172416
Re: the insurance on the paint
Wonder if they got the insurance before his test results were known? Just because the current owners got insurance doesn’t mean his new owners would. In any case, the insurance “bonus” is just some slick marketing talk to try and counteract the positive result.
>>>>If a horse who was even suspected to be symptomatic for HYPP, they will be dismissed from the class< <<<<
How can you suspect symptoms? So it’s ok if they’re HYPP positive, they just can’t have an attack while in the ring. Dipshits.
horror-fied said…
She is a responsible breeder who follows AQHA guidelines and she never breeds a N/H to an N/H
But n/h to n/n can STILL pass on HYPP. The odds are lower, but what’s the point?
Why is it so difficult to just not breed anything h/h or n/h?
Even n/h horses who go for YEARS without incident can still have an attack. They can still pass on the potential for that in their offspring. Why not KNOCK it out by NOT breeding anything that carries it?
**********************************
Responding to horror-fied:
Some horse NEVER have an attack. She has bred quarters for years and has found that there are more people who want the mass in a lot of performance events over the smaller horses.
They may never knock it out because breeding for an N/H horse is what “some” want due to the deeper more defined muscle (unlike the ugly overo that someone linked to craigs list – that is pitiful!). H/H horses do not look as bulky. Some N/N’s look pretty bulky and most of them pass it along, but not always.
emmy, honey, you need to do some research and stop listening to your “friend” the breeder who is making excuses for passing along a potentially deadly genetic defect.
This is from the UC-Davis website:
How is HYPP Inherited In Horses?
Based upon breeding trials conducted at the Equine Research Laboratory at the University of California at Davis, it was determined that HYPP is inherited as an autosomal dominant trait, which means it can occur in both males and females. The trait is inherited from generation to generation with equal frequency; it does not get “diluted” out. Breeding an affected heterozygous horse (N/H) to a normal horse (N/N) will result in approximately 50% normal offspring, while 50% will carry the defective gene (N/H). Breeding an affected homozygote (H/H) will result in all offspring carrying the gene mutation, regardless of the status of the other parent.
Normal (N/N) offspring safely can be bred, without fear of HYPP being inherited. Selective breeding to normal (N/N) horses could entirely eliminate HYPP disease. As HYPP is inherited as a dominant condition, it can and is being spread to other breeds. It is to everyone’s benefit to take the necessary steps to selectively breed HYPP out of existence before it becomes so widespread that this is impossible.
carrie said:
I can’t believe these idiots are marketing this horse as “the ultimate amateur or youth all-around horse!” Don’t they know ANYTHING about this disease? Sure, it’ll be great when some kid’s parents buy this horse and it suddenly has an attack while the kid is riding it. Morons.
You guys are missing the point..this horse is insured for 3.5 times his purchase price, this is an insurance scam waiting to happen. Sure, invest your money in this horse and gamble how many premium payments you make until he dies, and you collect the return on your ‘investment’
so basically, looks are more important than passing along a genetic condition that can cause horrible seizures?
Just because some horses never have an attack, IMO that is not a good enough reason to risk passing the gene along. They WOULD knock it out if people would get their heads out of their asses and realize that “deep cut muscle” looks are not worth HYPP.
You may really like your friend, but IMO it’s irresponsible to breed an N/H horse, period.
So her horse has never had a problem- but still, why take the risk?
AHHA, how “Impressive”
This is the wrong blog to come on and make excuses for breeding HYPP horses. It’s irresponsible, stupid, greedy and cruel to continue to engage in breeding these creatures when it could be stamped out in one generation if people would just breed HYPP N/N horses. It’s going to be so prevalent soon because of these asshat HYPP breeders that it’s going to permeate every breed and we’ll never be rid of it.
Emmy…
What performance event could possibly want so much mass only an n/h horse could give that?
QH’s were plenty bulky (some at least) already before HYPP showed up. It’s the size (and legs and feet) of most halter horses that make them so useless for performance events in the first place. Who in their right mind would see that as a plus for an animal actually expected to move?
I would tend to agree to a certain point, but I think there has been a lot of stereotyping that it is the worst disease ever. I didn’t think about it until I re-read the response from Julie that there are more horses afflicted with other diseases than HYPP. HYPP is just on the forefront of everyones minds because of one horse who may/may not have had an attack.
From what Kelli has shared when I asked the whole questions (with some concern) is that HYPP doesn’t always make a horse fall over. Most of the time a horse that is symptomatic will have a muscle tremor which is normally brought on by extreme stress.
I know of backyard horses that go on trail rides and half colic before they get back to the trailer because they don’t have enough muscle to properly carry their riders and they are built like goats!
Not saying that I would go to this extreme but it is sad to see these poor horses too which have more issues that an HYPP may ever go through… just from seeing both aspects of course.
You might enjoy reading this letter a prominent breeder and judge wrote to AQHA regarding breeders’ rights to breed HYPP positive horses. This was just prior to AQHA’s ruling not to register any more HYPP HH horses after 2007:
October 28, 2003
American Quarter Horse Association
P.O. Box 200
Amarillo, TX 79168
To All Executive Members and Members of the Stud Book And
Registration Committee:
My name is Gene A. Parker. I am a National Director from North
Carolina, I am an AQHA judge, a lifetime member, an exhibitor, a
breeder and a stallion manager of 3 N/H stallions. I have some strong
concerns on issues that will directly affect me.
After reviewing the letter sent to me from Mr. Stevens regarding the
October 7th meeting which addresses the proposal of rule changes for
the HYPP issue, I wish to strongly oppose any change or rule
amendment concerning the registration of foals carrying the HYPP
gene. AQHA and the Stud Book and Registration committee have done an
excellent job in documenting the status of a horse carrying this gene
which is evident on the registration certificates. By doing this,
gives an individual the information necessary to make a conscious
decision whether or not they choose to buy or breed a horse with this
gene. Some other concerns that I have are as follows:
1. After all the research and information that has been made
available to the general membership and public, It is hard for me to
understand why people are having such misconceptions and concerns
about this topic.
A. The University of California, Davis has done extensive research on
HYPP. Dr. Sharon J. Spier, DVM, Ph.D, has headed up much of the work
there. In her exact words are, “Many horses with this trait are
asymptomatic and have very successful careers. Most horses can be
managed easily with good care and can still bring great pleasure to
their owners. Please put this condition into perspective with regard
to many of the other conditions that our horses can have.” With this
said, we can look over and over for defects in our breed but there is
no proof that HYPP is a problem. Look at the money that AQHA has
invested in research grants to Colleges and Universities for colic
and laminitis and still have no cures. HYPP at least has a care and
treatment regiment in place for those affected horses that works
tremendously.
B. The Quarter Horse Journal has published 9 very educational
articles on the HYPP issues since 1992. These articles were written
by Veterinarians and Universities to educate and lift the concerns
that people were having regarding HYPP. They also used these articles
to educate the public on the care and treatment of horses
experiencing episodes. It is our personal observation, having most
all N/H show horses, that is a very rare occasion that we `ever’ have
to treat a horse for an HYPP episode. It just doesn’t happen. We
treat horses for a simple case of colic a hundred times more often
than for HYPP. Our N/H stallions are bred to a majority of N/H mares.
Almost all of the foals born are either N/H or N/N. It is a rare
occasion that an H/H is born. But with all of that said, we still
never have problems with HYPP episodes. There are many H/H horses
that have and are great show horses and live long productive lives…
MBJ Mini Obvious (Multiple World Champion/current broodmare),
Wincredible Curls (2003 Youth World Champion 3 yr old Mare/ 2003
Congress Champion Youth 3 yr old mare), Cool Miss Tardee (2003 Youth
World Champion Aged Mare), Im Too Hot To Handle (earner of over 500
halter points), Catch The Summer (Congress Champion/current broodmare)
…the list goes on and on. I can also name you some performance horses
that carry the HYPP gene too….Hope By Invitation (N/H) (2003 Congress
Champion 2 yr old Snaffle Bit Open and Limited) , Vital Signs Are
Good (N/H) (2002 World Champion /Congress Champion 2 yr old Snaffle
Bit and 2003 Congress 3 yr old Snaffle Bit Champion Open and Non-
Pro), Mr Impressive (World Champion Halter/High Point Pleasure
Horse), Diversified (World Champion Halter/World Champion Pleasure).
We, along with a great number of others, do not oppose the HYPP gene
and in actuality, prefer it.
C. It has been documented through insurance claims that more horses
die of colic and founder in one day than die of HYPP in a one year
period. This is another example of the misconceptions people have of
horses carrying the HYPP gene. Horses just don’t “drop dead” of HYPP
like some people claim. I have spoken to Tim Folck, the President of
the Folck Insurance Agency and whom carries many of our policies. He
spoke of the meeting during the Congress with Mr. Brewer and Mr.
Stevens whereas he reiterated that the insurance companies are not
having problems with HYPP but with halter horses carrying too much
weight. He also made me aware of some AQHA statistics that were given
to him by Cecil Johnson. According to AQHA, the mortality rate of
horses with Impressive decendence versus all other bloodlines
was .200%…point .200%. This hardly seems like a crisis where we
must ascertain the possibility of new regulations.
2. My next big concern regards the financial impact that this will
have on the industry as a whole.
A. The letter that was sent out by Mr. Stevens via mail and email was
at best, bad timing. This letter was received in the middle of
October while at the Congress and before the Congress sale. It was
also sent one month before the World Show and World Show sale which
is casting a negative outlook on these events concerning buying and
selling. This letter also came out with breeding season right around
the corner. As a stallion manager and breeder standing 5 stallions, 3
being N/H, the general public is now having grave concerns about what
direction AQHA is headed. My phone has rang continuously from
stallion owners, clients, prospective breeders and many within the
halter horse industry, all showing major disappointment for the
proposals that AQHA are making.
2. AQHA needs to realize the financial investment that members have
in their stallions, mares, facilities and show horses that have taken
years and years to ascertain. Our stallion owners alone have invested
hundreds of thousands of dollars in purchases of their stallions,
mares, advertising, insurance policies, ect. There is a lot of
careful planning and considerations that go into managing and owning
a breeding stallion. People’s livelihoods and futures revolve around
the decisions that are made. There are many individuals and families
that solely depend on the American Quarter Horse industry for their
total income. Any decision made by AQHA, that may potentially affect
thousands of people, should be given very careful consideration. If
our N/H stallions were forced to breed only N/N mares, the financial
impact would be overwhelming.
3. We must also focus on the financial impact that will directly
affect AQHA. If you were to eliminate, in time, the N/H and H/H
horses, you will be cutting the halter horse industry about 1/2….this
will directly affect moneys generated for AQHA by the reduction of
eligible horses for registration, transfers, stallion reports,
incentive funds, memberships, ect. Our own publication, The Quarter
Horse Journal, will also directly be affected and would feel the
financial impact.
4. The legal recourse must also be weighed by AQHA. Members whose
livelihoods are going to be affected and that have millions of
dollars invested are not going to sit back and let AQHA dictate what
they can and can not breed and register. The legal ramifications may
be devastating to our association. I encourage you not to put our
association in that predicament and I encourage AQHA to be what it is…
a registry…a place for education… and not to try and dictate our
breeding choices. I feel that you should, as you have done, educate
the membership and trust that they will do what is best. That is what
a free country is about…having the privilege to choose.
3. My last concern is the people who are causing the stir about HYPP.
They are not the halter horse industry, not the stallion owners, not
the mare owners, they are not the people that have invested millions
of dollars into our industry. AQHA needs to ask the members who
are “directly” affected, their feelings towards HYPP.
There is a very simple solution: Let it be our choice.
1. If you do not want to breed for this gene, breed an N/N mare to an
N/N stallion.
2. If you don’t want to own a horse with this gene, don’t buy one.
3. But if you do desire this gene, it should be your choice to either
breed or purchase a horse of your choosing.
Thank you for your time and consideration in this delicate matter.
Sincerely,
Gene A. Parker 0107051
Gene Parker Farms
>>>>Emmy said…
I would tend to agree to a certain point, but I think there has been a lot of stereotyping that it is the worst disease ever. I didn’t think about it until I re-read the response from Julie that there are more horses afflicted with other diseases than HYPP. HYPP is just on the forefront of everyones minds because of one horse who may/may not have had an attack.< <<<
You caught me on a nice day so all I’m going to say is “ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME!?
Damn, I need a drink.
Emmy—
Ever hear the saying two wrongs don’t make a right?
That’s exactly what’s going on here.
I really don’t care that there is something even worse wrong with another horse. That’s horrible also but it’s not an excuse to breed HYPP horses. All that says to me is that neither of those horses should be bred.
Also, are you actually saying the muscles from HYPP make a horse a better trail horse? That thinking is way way way out in the left-field somewhere.
What are the top endurance horses in the world? Pretty much exclusively arabs and they don’t have HYPP in their breed. Nor are they anywhere near as bulky as QHs. They do however posses the ability to be conditioned for endurance.
If you see horses almost colicking from a weekend trail ride it has nothing to do with HYPP or not. It’s because those horse’s owners are lazy and haven’t bother to get them in proper condition.
I just sent them the following e-mail…
Dear Wendy
My name is Erik S. and I am a marketing analyst at (my company). We routinely make large purchases of embroidered products for our employees and customers. We are always on the lookout for new suppliers and your company was brought to my attention today, however, I regret that we will not be working with you.
I discovered your company via a blog on the horse breeding industry. I discovered that your company fully supports the American Halter Horse Association, who I consider guilty of perpetrating the horrible HYPP disease. Although I am not involved in the horse industry, I have a deep appreciation for all horses. I find your sponsorship of the AHHA reprehensible and irresponsible. Please remove your sponsorship or I will ensure all of my contacts in the marketing industry know not to do business with your company.
Regards,
Erik S.
emmy said “I know of backyard horses that go on trail rides and half colic before they get back to the trailer because they don’t have enough muscle to properly carry their riders and they are built like goats!”
Are you kidding me? Do you think that might have more to do with the fact that their idiot owners try to get their fat asses on them once a year and ride all day with zero conditioning, than it has to do with the fact that they do not carry the “muscle gene”?
Seriously, this is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard.
Those people saying that overo is insured for that much is just a blatant lie. You cannot just randomly insure a horse for whatever amount you want. The insurance company requires PROOF of how much you paid for the horse. Proof as in a cancelled check, etc. not a handwritten receipt from Joe Smith down the road. Then you can add a certain percentage of the horse’s training costs for the first year. After that, to increase the value, you have to supply the insurance company with show/breeding records in order to increase the insured value. I know this because I got my mare for an extremely good price when the market was in the toilet (it still is, IMO) and as a result she is underinsured because she is just beginning her show career. Besides, what the hell does the buyer care if the horse is insured for 3x the selling price? The insurance policy does not get sold along with the horse!!!
emmy, come on you’re messing with us right? Trying to get a rise out of us? I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here that you might be a troll or one of the fucktard breeders that FHOTD has targeted just trying to cause some trouble.
It’s either that or you are just fucking ignorant and need to go away before my eyeballs start bleeding from reading your idiotic drivel.
horsepoor said “Damn, I need a drink.”
That is usually my concensus after reading the latest illustration of Fuglies, greedy breeders or BYB at their finest. The extent of human stupidity astounds me.
FHOTD – I hold up my margarita in your honor, even though you are driving me to drink!
Hi FuglyHorse….I wanted to share this with you. I had posted the HYPP video that you shared earlier on another board. Here’s a response I received….please read the reason this person just couldn’t pass up breeding the mare even though she MIGHT pass the disease on.
______________________________
As far as AQHA (can’t speak about the other stock breed rules) -
HYPP h/h: (affected with the disease and 100% chance of passing it on) – as of Jan 2007, they are no longer eligible for registration with AQHA.
HYPP n/h: (may or may not have disease, 50% chance of passing it on being bred to a n/n or non-impressive bred horse) – may eventually be denied registration. They tentatively have this set up for about 15 years away. They would have done it sooner, but many large breeders/trainers protested.
HYPP n/n: does not have the disease, nothing to pass on.
Every horse registered with AQHA and having Impressive in their pedigree is required to be tested and their registration is stamped with the test results.
One of the best competing all-around/pleasure mares (QH) out there right now, Vital Signs Are Good, is n/h. With her show schedule and record, she probably is not affected by the disease herself. They have been doing about 2 embryos a year from her – about 1 out of 5 or 6 offspring ended up being n/h. Her percentage for passing it along is less than 50%. The one foal that is n/h just won the big 2 yo futurity at the Reichert a week or so ago – a check for $100,000. That mare is such a special individual, it would be hard not to breed her for the n/n foals.
Personally, when looking at horses, I don’t like to consider ones with Impressive breeding. Mostly just because I have been around too many halter horses with that breeding and their attitudes!
I have been involved with a young one many years ago that began symptoms and had attacks when I started breaking him (usually after riding on the crossties – very scary). He ended up dying coming out of the anesthesia when he was gelded. This was probably about a year or two prior to the disease being identified and named. It is a horrible disease!
Okay, I will be nice! I was just trying to let people know that not all HYPP horses are dying on the vine (from what I have seen, which is only Kel’s horses)…
I will read and follow along.
This is another viewpoint from a pro HYPP breeder who was against the rule proposal at AQHA. This person is a major player in the halter horse business, and proof that it is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY:
Put the shoe on the other foot once….what if AQHA was going after
the n/n’s for some reason. Telling you that in a few years you won’t be able to register your n/n horses and you need to have at least one H to do so?????????
Think about that for a moment. Okay…there went your whole
business!! $$$$$
came crashing down…everything you have worked for…years of work
and breeding
just went down the tubes and your horse is worth nothing and you
can’t sell or
breed your horses anymore. You people aren’t thinking of the
damage it is
doing to thousands and thousands of people. I don’t want to loose
all this
money I have invested in my mares!! Is AQHA going to bale us out
of our debt??
Reimburse us for the $$$$ we spent on that horse??? I think you
all should
think about the damage it will do before attacking the n/h horses
or the breeding
programs.
I was told, but not sure?? That AQHA has a statue of “Sacred” in
the front of
their building?? Is that true? If it is….well guess what
guys…she is
n/h! She is one of the greats! And they have her in front of AQHA
building…as one of the great perfect horses!
This whole situation needs to be thought out a whole lot more than
it is!
Okay, so I read the posts from readers and went back online to try to figure a few things out. Help, I am confused! Califhorselvr asks about a horse named “Maids Dream” and states that the horse has died. I checked the website for the horse and many of his relatives- but there is no info on HYPP results. AQHA breeders are carefully trying to breed HYPP out, but what about the Appy breeders? There is no info on the Appy breeder page about HYPP. Check out “Maids Dream” at http://www.halterhorse.org
Now, onto AQHA breeders. I must say the Berton QHs in Calif do show the status of the horses on their website many of which are n/h. Mister GQ’ owners also state his n/h status on the webpage. These are/were top halter horse stallions in AQHA, but with select breeding- now we have foals sired my them that are n/n YEAH!!! Thats why AQHA rocks! Please, someone tell me more about the Appy Halter Horse World! I hope that old appy blood is keeping HYPP to a minimum!
Mintyfresh,
I agree with what you said about Arabs, they are great endurance horses. I was just generalizing because of “what” I have seen on the trail(owner or breeders fault).
Just to clear things up… I am not a breeder, I am only a weekend trail rider. I’m too busy wasting my time on blogs to do anything else!
What does USA EMBROIDERY have to do with horses???
just another paper product said:
“I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.”
I love it. I may have to print that out and stick it on my bulletin board.
This whole HYPP thing is totally mystifying to me. How can anyone not grasp the concept that you should not breed horses that carry the gene for a potentially lethal genetic defect? It’s kind of like finding yourself in a position of having to explain to someone why they shouldn’t jump off a 20-story building. It just seems so intuitive and obvious that you shouldn’t have to explain.
MorganHorseQueen- re- the chicken coop- I would give the mule only a couple hours, tops, before everything crashed down around him/her.
Said coop is fine for the cute little, chick, chicks, but they had problems keeping the dog out, so what does that say?
She was a hunting dog that was no longer producing large enough litters, so they got her for free. (Another toic for another day.)
The coop is mainly 2×4′s with a couple sheets of plywood for a roof. Everything else has chicken wire- front, door, sides, and back, to enclose it. I doubt the mule would fit through the door, but if so, the coop wouldn’t hold up long…
It’s not only that it’s potentially lethal, but it’s a DOMINANT gene. It does NOT skip generations and it does NOT dilute down not even one teeny tiny eensy weensy bit. I don’t care if a +horse has NEVER had a symptom and has won a gazillion dollars in the ring, it WILL pass it on if its bred. This disease will NEVER die out if greedy dipshits don’t stop breeding +horses. If you are breeding these horses, you suck.
As is said often on here STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT!
>>>Emmy said…
Okay, I will be nice! I was just trying to let people know that not all HYPP horses are dying on the vine (from what I have seen, which is only Kel’s horses)…
I will read and follow along.
September 14, 2007 1:19 PM< <<<
What the hell are you smoking? And can I have some?
Maids Dream is HYPP N/N for sure… well, was… I’m just saying I wonder if any of those stud owners even know they are “advertising” there… AHHA seem to have no scruples when it comes to advertising people for free.
Right, Equus, that is what I meant too.. that AHHA is advertising deceased horses for stud.. and just like those other advertisers didn’t know they were there, maybe the stud owners don’t either.. most of the studs are N/N from what I can see but I did find a couple N/H advertised.
After reading Mr. Gene Parker,AQHA judge’s letter, all i heard was “$$$$$, I can’t be regulated or I’ll lose my $$.” PUH-LEASE. that is the same lame-ass excuse you hear from every small brained businessman, be it an auto executive (we can’t create more efficient cars, the expense would ruin us–even though Toyota is clobbering the US market anyway), or your garden variety industrial polluter (we can’t invest in green technology or worry about global warming or sewage leaks, that would cost us too much $$ and ruin us), or your standard local land developer (you can’t make us pay more $$ to develop a decent project that benefits the community and doesn’t create more waste/pollution/traffic, it would destroy our profit margin!”
BOO-FRICKIN-HOO!!!
These people are all the same and it kills me. It isn’t about what’s right, or good, smart or even POTENTIALLY profitable, it’s all about their bottom line and short-sighted ME-ME-ME attitude.
I need a drink.
YEAH FUGLY for publishing the e-mail that that moron sent me!!!!!!!!
I replied back, reminded him that it’s not slander if it’s true and oh yeah…to enjoy the negative publicity that his company will receive when it’s linked with a sinking ship like the AHHA.
Heartland Vet has not gotten back to me yet about the status of their sponsorship, but e-mail them as well and feel free to rip them a new one.
YOUR E-MAILS DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, GUYS!!! FLOOD THEM!!!!!!!!!!
Emmy,
maybe your missing something here. many HYPP positive horses cant actually work undersaddle because that kind of “stress” can actually bring on an attack. yes i know some HYPP positive horses do ride just fine but most of them are bred to be ONLY halter horses with no intention of ever working under saddle. all the “extra muscle” is basicly useless since it isnt developed muscle. the APPREANCE of big muscles in this case does not mean the horse is fit at all for riding or working. if you ever look at a race horse, a top eventing horse or a top endurance horse what you WONT see is big thick muscles. you will instead see a LEAN, WIREY and slender horse. the only horses that really need “bulk” muscling are roping horses, drafting and carraige horses.
the fact is using HYPP breeding to produce muscling is just plain laziness at its finest. most halter horses spend their “career” in stalls with no turn out, lunged in sweats and blankets and “sweated” to get them “fit”. those horses are not fit in any way, the muscling on Positive horses is like painting stripes on a white horse and calling it a zebra and standing it in a zoo because your just to lazy to actually go out and get a zebra.
instead of all jumping on emmy, maybe we can take this opportunity to educate her. she said herself that she doesn’t know much about hypp and is willing to listen- clearly a lot of people do know a lot about hypp, and hopefully their knowledge about this awful, tragic disease can create another knowing person in the industry (even if just a weekend rider!) who can speak out against the prepetuation of this condition. just a thought.
Riddle me this:
If you want to breed N/H to N/H, couldn’t you do it by embryo transplant and have some sort of pre-implantation test that would eliminate the N/H and H/H embryos so only the N/N would breed on? Wouldn’t that let the people with top horses at least recover some of their breeding program? Or some sort of prenatal testing to the same purpose early in the pregnancy?
Probably expensive and difficult, but still, could be done.
Wow, how obvious does Gene Parker make it that its all about cash cash cash greed cash more cash greed selfishness and cash?
Seriously, its disheartening to see that so many people involved in the horse industry do not care about horses and just getting as much cash as possible. The horses suffer, but who cares CAUSE WE MAKE MONEY!
Bravo Kate & Eric for your letters.
I have printed out several AHHA Complaint forms and mailed them all, each with my $50 non- refundable fee. (to discourage frivolous complaints)
Monopoly money is great!
Total cost- 41 cents each – US mail.
plentpotentiary,
oh yeah its definetly about the money. no forced those asshats to buy positive breeding stock and no one forced them to make a freaking living from breeding horses.
cutnjump-
I figgered the mule would just make toothpicks out of the chicken coop, and by your description, that is definitely what would happen!!
V. entertaining!!
I just sent a scorching e-mail to Heartland Vet Supply. We’ll see if I get a response. Man the AHHA’s website advertising sure has taken a hit. LOL
Sad to see a horse being reduced to nothing more than an insurance claim. Marketing incentives stooping to a new low. You would think that an insurance company might have misgivings about insuring an non-breeding animal with a time bomb of a genetic disease…but at least he is a gelding
Barnibus-
many HYPP positive horses cant actually work undersaddle because that kind of “stress” can actually bring on an attack. yes i know some HYPP positive horses do ride just fine but most of them are bred to be ONLY halter horses with no intention of ever working under saddle. all the “extra muscle” is basicly useless since it isnt developed muscle. the APPREANCE of big muscles in this case does not mean the horse is fit at all for riding or working. if you ever look at a race horse, a top eventing horse or a top endurance horse what you WONT see is big thick muscles. you will instead see a LEAN, WIREY and slender horse. the only horses that really need “bulk” muscling are roping horses, drafting and carraige horses.
We knew of a local halter person(who is involved with paints) who does/did not ride, just halter & breeding. She encouraged one of our clients to buy a bottle of creotine for her filly- to give her that pumped up look for her weanling class.
First off the fillys owner bought the creotine and her husband about flipped out over the $75 a quart price tag. Then she started loading her up on it, until my DH explained to her what it does to the body.
Body builders take it too- (some of them, not all)
(I’m not sure if I have everything exactly right, but if not dead on, I am hopefully pretty damn close. For those of you are are more informed than I- please, correct me where I am wrong.)
The creotine restricts the blood vessles, reducing the blood flow which carries oxygen to your muscles and brain. (Did we need that?) This, in turn raises your blood pressure, puts a strain on your heart & over time with continued use, damages the muscle tissues and causes other serious problems. Your liver and kidneys filter this stuff out, and over time, they will begin to shut down too.
From what I understand, protein also contributes or aggrevates an HYPP attack, and that horses fed strictly alfalfa, (rich in protein) are more prone to having an attack if they are N/H or especially H/H.
Many body builders also drink protien shakes, and eat protein rich diets to limit their carbs and in turn burn off the fat first. (Atkins Diet sounding familiar anyone?)
So if you had an N/H or H/H horse and were feeding him not only straight alfalfa, but also creotine and all the other ‘muscle building stuff’, aren’t you just asking for it for your poor horse?
“Sorry he’s in the stall having a massive seizure, if not dying from the results of which, (from all the crap I gave him) and we can’t make the gate for our class.”
I wonder how many times AHHA will hear that in the paddock area at their shows???
Horsepoor wrote:
You caught me on a nice day so all I’m going to say is “ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME!?
Damn, I need a drink.
September 14, 2007 1:02 PM
===============================
Me too! I’m at work though, here, have a coke!
the second post was great too!
What exactly are people missing about the fact that HYPP is a FATAL defect?!! Yes many horses never have an attack. Until they do! And perhaps on YOU! Many people just don’t recognize the signs of a minor HYPP attack or aren’t even THERE when it happens (who spends 24/7 literally with their horse?) And then one day you walk in and the horse is dead in its stall or paddock or field and the In Memory ad says Died of a Heart Attack or Passed Away in his sleep. Yeah of HYPP stopping his heart! At the ripe old age of 3, 6, 15… Does it matter what age they die if they DIE? or if they collapse on top of your 10 year old????
Perhaps these people want to save on euthanasia costs???
Got a little off track there with my last comment. Barnibus- you are right about the racehorses, they are thin and sometime a bit wiry, but then they have a different lifestyle which gives them the ‘black hole metabolism’ which so many of them have. You can dump pounds of feed into them and they never seem to gain weight. They are also taken out of their stalls and worked on a regular basis.
It is a difficult concept for some to grasp, that horses actually need exercise to develop as youngsters.
I can remember my days at the Arab farms when we would wrap a horse in sweats to go out on the walker for an hour or two, then longe them 30-45 minutes, then back to the walker for an hour, pull the sweats and let them walk another 30 minutes to cool out, rinse them and then back on the walker for another 15-20 minutes to dry. Their appearance didn’t seem changed much to my eye, but their attitudes were often for shit in only a few short months. Good horses + treated badly = badditudes.
I guess the simplest way to put it this–if we claim to love our horses, the chance of breeding ONE animal who can die of this potentially fatal disease is too much. 50/50–would we take that chance with our children? Who in the world would want to breed a horse on the offchance that it MIGHT not die a lingering, terrible, pain filled death? this makes no sense to me whatsoever. Maybe I am anthropomorphicizing something..but I would not wiah a death like that on my own worst enemy–horse or human.
Here’s the exact parallel, everybody:
HIV.
You can be HIV positive and NEVER get sick and live a long life. But is that any reason to say, oh hell, I just KNOW I’m going to be one of those lucky ones, no condoms for me, pass the dirty needle?
SAME DAMN THING.
It’s not a risk we should be taking. There’s no excuse to take it. If you gamble and lose, the result is horrible, whether we’re talking about a slow death from full blown AIDS or suffocating in terror from HYPP.
and some people DO need the drugs so bad they take the dirty needle and stick it in anyways.. I can’t bend my mind around that one.. either.
Another pro HYPP breeder:
November 6, 2003
Mr. Steve Stevens, President
American Quarter Horse Association
PO Box 200
Amarillo, Texas 79168
Dear Mr. Stevens,
We are writing this letter out of concern for the two proposed rule changes being considered by the AQHA. We own and operate a small, but well planned horse ranch and breed our mares to the best in both the paint and quarter industries. Our mares are both AQHA and APHA registered and are also both HYPP NN and NH.
We would first like to address the proposed white rule. While we do agree that the “crop-out†quarter horses should have their own special place, we believe the proposed idea is too harsh. The thought of the halter bred quarter horses born with excessive white not being able to compete in halter is ludicrous and unfair in our opinion. We deal with a similar issue in the APHA with the breeding stock registry. The mares may participate fully in the halter classes, while the colts have very limited opportunity to show at halter. This promotes more breeding stock colts to be destroyed or left unregistered and sold as backyard horses. While this does not directly involve the AQHA, it is a sad fact. If the AQHA passes this proposed white rule, then the “crop-out†halter babies may meet the same fate. As we are all supposed to be in this business for the love of the horse, this is surely and very cruel alternative for these foals. Why not create the separate registry and allow full participation in all classes? Or have the crop-out foals only be allowed to register in one association rather than 2-3 depending on their coloring? This seems far more fair and certainly better for the horse.
The second proposed rule involving the HYPP horses is what has us the most concerned. As we own both positive and negative horses, this will have a direct impact on our breeding program and our horses. We do agree that the double positive HYPP HH horses should not be bred or able to be registered in any association. Many of the HH horses out there today live normal, productive lives, but perpetuating the breeding of NH-to-NH is asking for trouble. Where you lose us is the NH horse. None of our NH horses are symptomatic and live normal lives on our green pastures with regular feed. These mares all go through their pregnancies every year with out complications or event. They are happy, healthy gorgeous animals that contribute year after year to the betterment of their breeds. Because a horse is HYPP positive is NO reason to abolish them from the association. The very judges AQHA has chosen are using these horses show after show, year after year as their first choices. If the people who decide the best of the best are going to continue to choose the most massive bodied horses, then how can the NH factor be taken away from the breed? Look at your past champions…Shez Fancy Fancy…HH, Kids Classic Style…NH, Design By Concention…NH, Ultimate Indulgence….NH and the list could go on for many pages. The majority of the winning halter horses out there today are HYPP positive and are healthy, productive individuals. And don’t forget to look at the leading sires and dams list for halter, many of our current top producing stallions and mares are also NH. The loss over the past few years of many of our major world champion and champion-producing horses has been attributed more to colic, founder, improper care and misuse of the animal than it has been to HYPP.
I am a practicing registered nurse along with being a horse breeder. The HYPP proposal brings to mind the question, should we not allow people with diabetes, or positive family histories for cancer or heart disease to bear children? Many of these people lead normal lives without medications or drastic changes in their lives and go on to produce healthy children, just like our NH horses. The owners of these animals are responsible for their care and health and should be held accountable…not the horse. It is OUR choice to own or breed to a NH horse and we do so to compete and win in today’s halter classes. If you are going to try to eliminate something from the quarter horse breed, why not stop allowing people to put braces on horses’ teeth to correct an overbite? This is also hereditary and passed on. The AKC does not promote breeding dogs with overbites and certainly does not try to fix the overbite with braces to “fool†people into believing it never existed. If braces and overbites are acceptable, then why do the judges check the horses’ mouths? And what about the number of crippled horses that are being registered and allowed to breed every year? These horses go through extensive surgeries to correct bad knees, hips and to release tendons along with many other defects. Then they are shown with their knees shaking if the classes are too late in the day. Or they are shot up with meds prior to showing.
You have so many issues that are VERY detrimental to the quarter horse breed such as the use of copious amounts of IV fluids forced into animals to “fill them out†prior to halter classes and the misuse of steroids and growth hormones to promote unnatural growth. We have seen some of the results of these “training†tactics such as orthopedic problems, sterility and even death. Let’s tackle those and leave the healthy, well cared for NH horses alone. This proposal would take the halter industry back in time too many years. Impressive has played a huge part in the quarter horse breed and his legend should not be tainted this way. We test all of our horses for HYPP that may possibly carry the gene. But we have purchased several that the owner did not bother to test. I do think the HYPP test should be mandatory for these individuals and without the test, they should not be registered. This will help prevent the HYPP positive horses that people don’t know about from getting improper care. And please keep in mind that there are NH horses out there with NO Impressive blood in their genes at all! Look at the pedigrees of APHA stallions Exotic Fantasy and Small Town Fantasy. Both non-symptomatic NH studs with NO Impressive blood. Maybe this gene was actually carried by Three Bars and not Impressive at all as Impressive was double bred Three Bars top and bottom. This opens up the possibility that all Three Bars descendents should be tested and then banned also!
We cannot support the HYPP proposal as it is currently written. There is a need for change, we all know that. The constant breeding of NH-to-NH needs to be stopped. If we stop the breeding of NH to NH, that will reduce the overall rate of NH horses being born by 25% as people will not want to risk getting the HH foal that cannot be registered. We feel that the proposal should be amended and ask for by the year 2010, NH colts be gelded. Add to that by the year 2020, any NH foal born may be registered and allowed to participate fully in all events, but not be allowed to reproduce. Of course, any horses born prior to 2010 will be “grandfathered†into the association. This approach will slowly but surely eliminate the HYPP gene from the industry without having any detrimental impact on the breeders or senseless slaughter of the HYPP positive horses already out there. Please think very hard about the impact this rule will have on everyone, and on the already existing NH horses. You are asking for a mass slaughter of fabulous, productive animals if they are unable to breed or be shown and no one wants that to happen. We hope our voices will be heard.
Sincerely,
Todd and Kathy Sodgrass
Double S Ranch
Actually instead of posting everything from that site here is the link.
http://www.halterhorsecentral.com/hypp.htm
You will notice how many ppl support HYPP breeding while you read. It turns my stomach to see how many ppl don’t care about the suffering that the horse will eventually go through!
Stupid greedy ppl need to have nose shoved into what is left of their brain!!
FHOTD, a “better” analogy to HYPP from the horse’s perspective is Huntingdon’s disease (alias Huntingdon’s Chorea), an incurable disease caused – like HYPP – by a dominant gene. As with HYPP, its symptoms are largely controlled by diet, due to lack of effective medications.
If I had Huntingdon’s, I wouldn’t have my own kids, period. I wouldn’t particularly want half of them dying of a degenerative disease that I could prevent by using donated eggs or by adopting. But it’s illegal to sell one’s children, chronically ill or not, whereas one’s four-legged children…
(By the way, the commenter who said that because five of a N/H mare’s six foals were N/N the transmission rate is less than 50% needs a basic lesson in statistical mathematics. Each individual foal of an N/N and an N/H has a 50% chance of being N/H. The distribution tends towards 50% of each value as the number of individuals in the sample approaches infinity, but as no one can obtain infinite foals from one mare, the resulting smaller sample is likely to be skewed towards one value or the other.)
The HIV analogy is highly applicable to the *breeders*, though, or the riders (if anyone can actually MOUNT a N/H monstrosity). It is fundamentally wrong of me to wish that a rash of idiots would be injured after being thrown from convulsing horses, so I will restrict myself to snarking at them instead.
While I in no way support HYPP breeders, I really do feel it is a DROP IN THE BUCKET compared to the pending HERDA epidemic.
Give me the occasional seizure and the chance of my heart exploding ANY DAY over my SKIN SLOUGHING OFF.
While it may be more rare, it’s certainly far more disturbing and likely far more miserable for the animal, this much is true.
And there are STILL idiot foundation people who believe HERDA is ‘not a big deal’. I see it ALL THE TIME on many different online forums… people breeding horses with the potential for HERDA and telling everyone it’s ‘so rare, I doubt my horse will have it’… and the naive new-to-horses folks listening to these so-called ‘experienced breeders’ make these COMPLETELY asinine totally illogical decisions on their breeding stock and say to themselves ‘shoot, if the moderator from the blah-de-blah forum says it’s okay, well then it MUST be alright’…
EDUCATE YOURSELVES.
DON’T BREED HYPP POSITIVE HORSES… but more importantly, if you wind up having an N/H horse for whatever reason, read up on diet and medication and your chances are fairly decent that it will lead an okay life…
BUT THERE IS NO MEDICATION OR DIET FOR HERDA.
Yet another idiot HYPP breeder, but this guy breeds FOR HYPP.
“As a member for only a few years, I did all the research of what the AQHA halter classes require and after intense research I found that AQHA JUDGES choose horses that posses the hypp positive gene. (whether n’h or h’h) After seeing this I went out and purchased an N”H stallion which in 2 years has stood grand or reserve 41 times with me the little breeder showing him. Then I went out and bought mares to breed to this stallion most being n/n but a couple n’h and as an knowledgeable breeder of hypp I have learned that as a whole these animals are normally no different than any other breed and if you do have one with symptoms, it is easily controlled. So what I want to know is , why are you changing the rules now. I did exactly what the AQHA promotes and chooses as the model horse week after week in the show pen and now you want to say that the AQHA has changed their mind and it is now a defect….When I bought my horses I was not investing in the stock market and wondering if my investment was stable, but was investing in a solid future or so I thought with an exciting promising future but the AQHA has DESTROYED this whether they pass this ridicules rule or not. AQHA has made the market so unstable with all this HYPE and it is going to take years for it to ever recover, if it does. Just remember WE FOLLOWED YOUR RULES AQHA. I along with MANY others will fight you to the bitter end. I don’t think you can afford this one!!!!!!!!!!!!
Greg”
“As we are all supposed to be in this business for the love of the horse, this is surely and very cruel alternative for these foals.”
Unbelievable. They don’t even realize that when talking about cropouts with extra white, they are describing their love of the HYPP positive horses.
The loss over the past few years of many of our major world champion and champion-producing horses has been attributed more to colic, founder, improper care and misuse of the animal than it has been to HYPP.
Ultimate Indulgence is dead. Of course, these people don’t usually divulge the real cause of death in most cases, especially after all the hooplah regarding HYPP.
It is OUR choice to own or breed to a NH horse and we do so to compete and win in today’s halter classes.
This sentence says it all.
This proposal would take the halter industry back in time too many years.
This would be a GOOD thing.
And please keep in mind that there are NH horses out there with NO Impressive blood in their genes at all! Look at the pedigrees of APHA stallions Exotic Fantasy and Small Town Fantasy. Both non-symptomatic NH studs with NO Impressive blood.
Those horses have Impressive in their bloodlines.
Maybe this gene was actually carried by Three Bars and not Impressive at all as Impressive was double bred Three Bars top and bottom. This opens up the possibility that all Three Bars descendents should be tested and then banned also!
When I did the pedigree work for UC Davis during the research phase of HYPP, it was determined that HYPP was a result of a point mutation with Impressive himself. If Three Bars carried any genetic defect, it would have surfaced by now, since the majority of Quarter Horses today carry that blood. And, she states that why not ban all Three Bars descendants…what a crock. No one proposed to ban all Impressive descendants in the first place! There are many N/N descendants of Impressive that do not carry they HYPP gene.
You are asking for a mass slaughter of fabulous, productive animals if they are unable to breed or be shown and no one wants that to happen.
No, YOU have asked for a mass slaughter of HYPP positive horses by choosing to breed them when the geneticists recommended it could be bred out in one generation. YOU chose to go the other direction.
angel_with_a_broken_halo said…
Yet another idiot HYPP breeder, but this guy breeds FOR HYPP.
OMG! That is pathetic. All for the win and the money. To hell with the welfare of the horses, huh? OF COURSE, they’re ALL non-symptomatic and live “normal” lives, you know.
angel_with_a_broken_halo, sounds like you got taken! I hope you did not buy all your horses in one place! I know of plenty of breeders who changed thier programs to try to lessen the chance of HYPP DURING THE 1990′s! You are the sucker who jumped in an already huge mess. In the mid 1990′s, the breeders I worked for changed up their program, sold their double positive stallion and regrouped. You must have bought him! Your trainer should have made you aware- or decided your money was green and the horse would win! It was your choice to buy HYPP horses. I hope you got more than a few championships for it–maybe a world title? a few QH trophys are not worth the money, honey! A few people made a buck off you!
angel_with_a_broken_halo — Sorry! Previous Rant should have posted towards “greg”
The unfortunate truth….
THERE IS NO MEDICINE FOR STUPID !!
If we could cull the irresponsible BYB’s [Turkey Shoot anyone !?], then responsible horse-owners/breeders can set about changing the horse “situation”, until then we are just injuring ourselves by banging our collective heads against brick walls.
BUT if we can convert even a small percentage to common-sense and compassionate handling/breeding etc. regarding horses then I believe the headaches are worth it !
Hey, found video of the AHHA horse of the future:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZy4cCKcbaU&NR=1
Here’s a link that say’s they were originally bred to provide food for wolves to cause them to leave sheep alone. I think its sad anyone every decided to keep this genetic problem going as a ‘breed’, but of course, it was an American. But at least these poor animals can BREATH and do not die from the condition.
“is that HYPP doesn’t always make a horse fall over. Most of the time a horse that is symptomatic will have a muscle tremor which is normally brought on by extreme stress.”
Emmy, I believe you are a young one. Nothing wrong with that, just be aware that I, too, at a young age, believed a lot of the smoke that got blown up my ass.
It may even be well-intentioned smoke, smoke that good ol’ Kel once had blown up her own ass, and now believes herself.
It’s a shame she is passing it on, though.
I know a HYPP positive, symptomatic horse. He’s five, but looks fifteen to twenty. (He also has DSLD, but that’s another story.)
Even on Acetazolimide, and a special diet, I’ve had to help this poor gelding up out of the dirt and soothe him as he struggles to recover and breathe.
The first four years of his life, he did not fall over.
This caused a young person to buy him for her first horse, as the breeder told her much the same stuff as your friend Kel is telling you.
Said first time horse owner loves her horse, but she cannot ride him. At all. He is a very expensive piece of heartbreak, to her.
You cannot tell me in the still of the night, that she does not regret believing the smoke that got blown up her ass. And she and her poor horse suffer.
OMG! For those idiots comparing HYPP to founder and colic….
IF THERE WERE A GENE for those, you can darn well bet that MOST people would breed away from it to get rid of them! THERE IS NOT A GENE for those illnesses. This is not even the same freakin’ ball park!
txhorsechic,
I was not taken by any HYPP breeder. I am taken back by the lack of empathy that the HYPP breeders have towards their horses. They don’t see horses as flesh, blood and emotions like we do. They see them as a walking greenbacks.
I would like to find out how to infect the breeders with HYPP, HERDA, OLWS & SCID so they can experience the “controllable” seizures, the skin falling off or death. Just so I can parade them around in front of everyone for a few bucks.
To knowingly breed for those traits is unconscionable and unforgivable. In my opinion they are no better than a murderer and should be dealt with in the same manner!