Hooked on Phonics for Horsepeople 101!
Sep 03 2007
Thanks to Forthefutureofthebreed for supplying today’s guest blog, which should be saved as a reference for anyone writing horse ads who isn’t quite sure about terminology. Taking a little time to learn makes you look much more professional and helps get your horses attention from the kind of good homes you would like for them to have.
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“Yup, that little filly colt is out of my best stud…â€
Why can’t horse people figure out how to use correct terminology on their websites and in their stallion or sale ads? The amount of effort you put into your web site or sale ads (not adds; ad is short for “advertisementâ€) are equal to the amount of effort you put into the breeding and care of your horses. If you are an illiterate, stupid idiot, and use misspelled words and lame terminology, no one with any class is going to do business with you – only other illiterate, stupid idiots.
And, it’s horses for “saleâ€, not “horses for sellâ€. You consign your horse to a sale to sell him. I see people write, “I’m going to sale my horseâ€. It’s “sellâ€, you uneducated, backwoods moron. At least it’s only four letters…
How difficult is it to remember that a horse is BY a stallion, and OUT OF a mare? Horses are NOT out of a stallion. Foals literally come out of a mare. I’ve seen some people actually say “by a mareâ€, too.
How hard is it to spell “CONFORMATION†correctly? I mean, there really IS a difference between the definitions of conformation and confirmation.
Conformation – The shape or body structure of a horse.
Confirmation – Verification, evidence, or proof of something.
If you’re referring to the breed of a horse, it’s spelled “breedâ€.
It’s spelled “bred†if you mean, I bred my mare, or that mare is well-bred.
“Bred†is also found in the word, Thoroughbred. It’s not spelled Thorobred, Throughbreed, Thorobreed, or Thoroughbreed. FHOTD in: Also, Thoroughbred is a breed, not a synonym for “purebred.” You do not have a Thoroughbred Appaloosa unless of course it is a cross between Thoroughbred and Appaloosa.
“Bread†is that stuff you buy at the store to make sandwiches with.
Horse colors and parts are not difficult to understand or spell, either.
“Sorrel†is one word used to describe a red horse. It’s not spelled “sorrow†or “sorrell†or “sorelâ€.
A “palomino†is a golden horse with a white mane and tail. It’s not a palamino with a white main and tale. Sometimes they are “gaitedâ€, not gated. A gate is one of those things with a latch that lets you go from one side of a fence to the other.
All horses have “pasternsâ€, not pasturns. You know, the part between the fetlock and the hoof.
They also have “withersâ€, not whithers.
And what is it with people who use the phrase, “half-brother to so-and-soâ€, meaning they only share the same sire? How many other foals are by that stallion? Possibly hundreds? How many foals does a mare usually have? One a year, maybe? Do you think that saying “half-brother to†would provide more information if we all knew it meant they shared the same dam?
No, you’d rather pick the name of some famous, well-known horse by the same stallion and call it a half-brother…it makes your horse appear to be so much better quality than he really is, doesn’t it? Many horses who only share the same sire can be as different as night and day; horses who are out of the same mare tend to resemble each other, in phenotype and ability.
Horses are not people, and the relationship terminology is different.
Half-sibling – A relationship of two foals out of the same dam, but by different sires; does not apply to horses that only share the same sire.
Another very common, misused word is “produce†to describe what a stallion has sired. Mares produce, not stallions. Stallions sire; sometimes their foals are referred to as “getâ€, “progeny†or “offspringâ€. I don’t know how many times I’ve read, “My stud produced a champion.†No, your stallion sired a champion.
“My stallion is a homozygous black Tobianoâ€. Great. Which is it? Homozygous for black or homozygous for Tobiano, or both? You really need to be more specific if you’re going to use big words and fancy genetic terms. And you should have a test from a reputable genetics testing lab to prove your claims. Your Tobiano with a QH or TB parent is NOT homozygous for Tobiano. It is impossible.
FHOTD in: Also, there is no such word as homogygous. Really.
Not all foals for sale are “halter prospectsâ€. People who show quality halter Quarter Horses and Paints really can tell if they’re halter prospects or not. Your weanling from foundation working horse stock isn’t going to be a competitive halter horse. Just because he is stocky right now, it doesn’t qualify him as a “halter prospectâ€. Most of them are not.
Why are all your colts “stallion prospectsâ€? I’d love to know the answer to this one. Just because they haven’t been gelded (not gilded) yet, doesn’t make them “stallion prospectsâ€. That little dun colt you raised that you’ve priced at $1,000 isn’t stallion quality. And you ranch horse and foundation QH breeders: all of your male foals are NOT stallion material. They really aren’t. Truly excellent weanling stallion prospects are registered, and worth at least $5,000, usually more. True stallion quality colts are only among the top 5% of any breed; the other 95% needs to be gelded. Just because he’s a popular color or by some famous stallion doesn’t mean he deserves to remain intact (not in tact). His dam is probably a no-name, low quality, do-nothing mare of undistinguished breeding. Most great stallions have great dams and even greater pedigrees, and they are capable of actually being competitive at the top levels of the breed.
WHY are all of your fillies (it’s not spelled phillies or fillys) and mares, “broodmare prospectsâ€? Must you breed them all? Just because they are capable of having a foal, doesn’t mean they should be bred. Do you know that a mare really worthy of being a broodmare should be, in the very least, the same level of quality as a good stallion? Most mares will be bred at some point in their lifetime, just because they CAN be bred. That cheap stallion down the road isn’t going to magically fix your mare’s crooked legs. And, no, having a foal isn’t going to “settle her downâ€, either. She’s still going to be a crooked-legged nasty bitch after she has her foal, and that foal will most likely be just like her.
Also, why is it people say that “nothing matters past the first three generations†of a pedigree, yet they will use a name “just off the papers†to make their horse sound better? You know, if your horse doesn’t have anyone worth a shit in the first three generations of his pedigree, he’s probably a piece of shit, too. The true value of your horse is probably quite different than your idea of the value of your horse.
And, what moron decided that the term, “tri-colored†applied to horses? What you consider “tri-colored†are just bay Paints or Pintos! You know, brown and white body, with a black mane and tail and legs. Would you call a bay horse with white socks “tri-coloredâ€, too? Tri-colored is a dog term.
Finally, can someone tell me the difference between an “own son of†and a “son of� Is an own son better?
249 comments to “Hooked on Phonics for Horsepeople 101!”
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I have to confess. I am a snob too.
I agree completely with FTFOTB. No papers, no breed.
It would be wonderful if there were enough people to buy up all the unregistered, unwanted, and the fuglies just to give them jobs or great loving homes to live out their days. We don’t live in a perfect world. But we as breeders can sure try to do our homework and make intelligent breeding decisions.
And I agree with you Paintjunkie.
When I decide to buy for our breeding program, I’ll look at the pedigree before ever looking at the horse. Granted, it’s not the most important to me, but it does offer some insight as to what I’ll be looking at.If BOTH sides of the pedigree are sufficient for what we breed for, and the conformation and disposition are acceptable, then I look to progeny records if what I am looking at has already sired or produced offspring. After that, performance records. In my opinion, each is equally important when making breeding decisions.
PaintJunkie said…
I have to confess. I am a snob too.
I agree completely with FTFOTB. No papers, no breed.
It would be wonderful if there were enough people to buy up all the unregistered, unwanted, and the fuglies just to give them jobs or great loving homes to live out their days. We don’t live in a perfect world. But we as breeders can sure try to do our homework and make intelligent breeding decisions.
September 4, 2007 12:55 PM
Yes, I can agree about the BREEDING, but the argument was over what “quality” is.. To call our horses that aren’t breeders pieces of shit is wrong, To me they are more useful than any top notch broodmare
Dear BountyHunter,
Oh my goodness gracious!Looked at the “blue ovarian” site. Said they built the stall around her with a chain saw? Propbably drowned out the sound of the dueling banjos in the background.
Our small farm is not fancy but the four-stall is sound, safe, solid, and I am prideful to put any horse in it.
I hope that poor filly finds a decent home with someone to love her, train her, and never never breed her!
cenedra91 said…
Yes, I can agree about the BREEDING, but the argument was over what “quality” is.. To call our horses that aren’t breeders pieces of shit is wrong,
I think you need to reread the comments. FTFOTB was not saying your horses are pieces of shit. There are always exceptions to every rule in the horse industry and life in general.
The point she is trying to make is don’t breed them. There has to be a line drawn somewhere in the breeding industry. There are way to many horses to go around. As the unregistered, and fugly horse population keeps increasing then the only place left for the ones that you and others like you can’t buy and take care of, end up at slaughter.
I am sure the horses you own are wonderful and priceless to you. But how much are they really worth on the open market… Be realistic. I personally have a fugly or 2 or 3 or 4 on my place and they are priceless only to me, but I would have to give them away. They won’t be bred either.
How about I revise this sentence where I said, “A horse with five generations of nothing in a pedigree usually IS a piece of shit.” to read:
A horse with five generations of nothing in a pedigree is usually not any higher quality than the ancestors from which it came. Take out the “piece of shit” part. There. Does that make it feel better? The meaning of the statement doesn’t change, though. Blood will tell.
actually yes it makes it a statement I can agree with and not feel like a personal attack. Thank you.
Gosh, cenedra, I didn’t think this was a forum where we had to be careful about hurting someone’s feelings! LOL. Many people finally understand something when it is presented in a harsher manner. You know, like being hit over the head with a big stick. You must take out the emotional aspect of it in order to learn and understand what is being presented. My intentions are never to hurt anyone’s feelings, and I write in a very general manner. Why can’t people see the credibility and validity of someone’s opinions (especially on a learning forum) without the perceived personal attacks? I don’t ever remember saying, “Gee, Cenedra, your horses are pieces of shit.” You took something I said and applied it to your horses yourself. I tried very hard to explain what I meant, but maybe it was easier to just start tossing rocks at the messenger? Not cool.
HA-that’s freaking hillarious! I have the exact same head bashing impulse after I read such stupid ads…
I know I’m asking for it here; but, Future and Fugly – You have both been on the bandwagon about the way QHs and Paints are being ruined. They are being ruined by everyone only bredding what’s winning. So with that in mind, wouldn’t it make sense to go to some good conformation breeding stock that doesn’t have these “big place names” on the papers? And possibly no awesome show careers within the last few generations, to get away from the problems with the breed today? Same with the Poco Bueno line being one of “the” names to have, yet it could potentially carry and posess that skin disorder? IMHO maybe we need to find some good using horses that have never seen teh ring; i.e. ranch horses, feed lots horses; ones like that have the sense, and build to better the breed I think. This may be one of the few ways to actually improve the breed, then just go by the pedigree with show horses. OK let the rum start flowing, as I’m sure I’ll need it.
Sorry about the spelling errors!! Typing too fast, and too lazy to use spell check. I’m sure you got the gist of everything tho.
The “But he’s not fugly to me” argument doesn’t hold water. I personally wouldn’t want to care for an ugly child (or ANY child, for that matter), but someone else out there might love the little ghoul.
Here I go getting all fortuitously profound and insightfully skewed beyond cognition- just skip the next chapter:
Your horse, to YOU, is perfect. Your horse to the breed (or species?) as a whole might be a DETRIMENT, or otherwise unsavory.
There’s a difference in relevance to individual AND to species.
Sex, for example.
Sex is a NEED to propagate a species. People stop fuckin, people keep dyin’, things thin out (yay! More room for meeee!)
Sex to an INDIVIDUAL is a WANT. Sex, unlike food, clothing, shelter, and Brahmin handbags in Toasted Almond, is NOT necessary for your own personal survival.
If you don’t get laid, you won’t DIE, no matter how much fun it is to be prodded, positioned, to have your body melted and softened to be bent into the most unnatural, sweaty contortions like human origami meets BDSM all while cleaving breathily to a stoic, swarthy, fiercely disciplined tanguero with all the wiles of a cougar, the wit of a bard, the vision of a sculptor, the hands of a masseur, the will and resolve of a Riding Master, the masculinely robust yet athletically lithe body of a Lamborghini (the morgan, not the car), and the ability of Woodford Reserve to make it allll so damn likeable.
So anyway… as I was saying… people (and I do believe, even though I think they’re dorks because of their indignantly reflexive delivery, that the people here have gotten the picture) need to understand the difference in what works for them, and what’s best for The Whole.
Huh. I was gonna say something else, but now I can’t remember what I was going to write.
4TheLoveOfHorses said…
I know I’m asking for it here; but, Future and Fugly – You have both been on the bandwagon about the way QHs and Paints are being ruined. They are being ruined by everyone only bredding what’s winning. So with that in mind, wouldn’t it make sense to go to some good conformation breeding stock that doesn’t have these “big place names” on the papers? And possibly no awesome show careers within the last few generations, to get away from the problems with the breed today? Same with the Poco Bueno line being one of “the” names to have, yet it could potentially carry and posess that skin disorder? IMHO maybe we need to find some good using horses that have never seen teh ring; i.e. ranch horses, feed lots horses; ones like that have the sense, and build to better the breed I think. This may be one of the few ways to actually improve the breed, then just go by the pedigree with show horses. OK let the rum start flowing, as I’m sure I’ll need it.
That is a great point, although, personally, I’m always on the lookout for quality horses with exceptional conformation, proven show pedigree or not. I always have been. The problem with that is I don’t usually find what I’m looking for among the usual BYB stock. Most horses who are quality will have a quality pedigree to back it up, and therefore, it’s a proven pedigree. Great quality horses, even with an obscure pedigree in some out-of-the-way place don’t remain hidden for long.
As a whole, what is winning in today’s show pen goes against what I feel is correct conformation that will keep the breed viable in the future. So, yes, looking for correct, sound conformation is always a priority with me, and would be in the best interest of the breed. I don’t place emphasis on a show-winning or proven pedigree in my selection criteria. I place the individual quality of the horse as number one priority, and a proven pedigree will usually be behind that quality individual. So the chances of finding the quality I’m looking for outside the normal boundaries of a proven pedigree are slim.
Breeding to obtain more crosses to Poco Bueno (with or without HERDA) is an exercise in futility, because it has not shown to be a positive in producing horses of exceptional quality. Linebreeding to males only is also an exercise in stupidity, in my opinion. But that’s the subject of a more complicated debate.
Love those terms, LOL. I remember running across an ad in a local paper about two years ago that mentioned the “mama and syre” were located on the property.
Wow, definitely an interesting blog, and many things I agree with. I’ve seen a lot of those mistakes/displays of ignorance.
One thing I will say; I’ve always understood it to be that “stallion” is an intact male horse. “Stud” is an intact male horse *used primarily for breeding.* If a horse is bred to two or three mares a year, and is ridden the rest of the time, he’s a stallion. If he’s bred to many mares and is not used for other purposes, that makes him a stud. A.P. Indy is a stud, for example. A stud is also the European term for breeding farm. Just how I always understood it.
Also, the buckskin/dun thing; as previously stated, a buckskin is the result of a single dilute gene on a otherwise bay coat. Without the dilute gene, the horse would be an ordinary bay. Dun is a different gene, and has different colors when combined with coat colors; red dun and yellow dun (incorrectly known as buckskin dun) for example. However, the dun gene is linked to the gene for primative markings; the dorsal stripe, along with a stripe across the withers, zebra barring on the legs, and striped hooves. If you breed a buckskin to a dun, and any of these traits are present in the foal, it’s a dun. If they’re not, it’s a buckskin.
Also, an easy way to remember; dorsal begins with d, so does dun. Duns have dorsal stripes.
FTFOTB– You and I have gone rounds and then come back to shake hands and have wonderfully insiteful and enjoyable discussions. And, I have always appreciated (if not agreed with) your point of view.
That being said, I have several thoughts on the “No papers, no horse issue”. Unfortunately, I think this exact way of thinking is undermining the entire horse industry. If more people would get into the idea that “You can’t ride papers”, there would be less throwaways.
On the other hand, it would also add to the BYBs feelings of justifications. UGH Where does this really go? 6 one way, half a dozen the other, I guess.
Anyway, I do believe that even horses with shitty or no pedigrees can be very valuable animals in their own right. Look at all of the non-pedigreed hunter ponies out there that sell for 30,000+.
So, for specific discipline, I do feel that pedigree is less important than aptitude and attitude.
I do, however, agree with you 10000000% that just because I LOVE MY FUGLY HORSE (defined as no or poor pedigree, conformation, etc ect whichever you choose it to be), doesn’t make that horse valuable to ANYONE OTHER than me.
I am always on the lookout for nice horses that ended up on the wrong side of a barbed wire fence in some idiots back yard and they don’t know what they have. They are few and far between, but they are out there.
Recently, I have been able to find HUNDREDS of nice pedigreed and nice looking babies that are going for the same prices as the poor ones. Just search on Dreamhorse under their bloodline search. Try looking for Colonel Freckles foals, as those seem to be HOT right now and WAY oversaturated. There are TONS on Dreamhorse for 3000 or less that have Col Freckles in the first two gens. You can pick up babies with CF in the first 3 for 800 and under!
That being said, I don’t mind too much when responsible breeders take a really nice looking, nice tempered, good using mare with a not so impressive pedigree and breed her simply because its nice to get some different blood circulating.
Personally, while I enjoy the resale benefits and bragging rights of a well pedigreed horse, its not super important to me. I feel that any registered horse that is of excellent conformation and disposition should be given the opportunity to prove itself in a discipline (even if that is only as a family trail horse), and if it successfully masters that discipline and proves itself over many years, then it should be rated as breeding quality.
In something of the same vein, it really irritates me to no end when breeders can’t even correctly identify the colors of their horses. I could go on and on about how people not knowing the difference between a sabino and a roan drives me insane. Sometimes these things are important, people. If nothing else, those sorts of details show that you have some knowledge and actually care.
Another one for the illiterate BYB’s club.
http://dallas.craigslist.org/
grd/411828791.html
Besides spelling almost every other freaking word wrong, she justifies this poor girl being so skinny as “she is a little thin that is becouse i just ween a colt off of her”. I guess maybe if she was just a little ribby, but come on, her backbone is jutting out of the middle of her back. Maybe she is so skinny because there isn’t a speck of food in her entire pasture for her to eat! Not to mention this fine breeding specimen to begin with…
Oh, to make the deal a little sweeter, the she’ll throw the bull in and you can have the both for $1100!
forthefutureofthebreed said…
cenedra91 said…
I disagree with the statement about a horse being a piece of shit if it doesn’t have a known name on the papers. I’m sure there are plenty of horses that are very valuable to their owners. I know I wouldn’t trade my mare for any of the top earners out there. Just because you are a snob doesn’t make my horse a piece of shit
Yes, even fugly horses are loved and have their place in horsedom.
Unless you are knowledgeable about horse breeding and pedigrees, don’t go calling someone a snob. You’re just making excuses because you don’t have a high quality horse. A horse with five generations of nothing in a pedigree usually IS a piece of shit. Most stallions have done something, and a five generation pedigree with 31 non-performing, non-siring stallions isn’t going to create a high quality horse capable of performing with the best of them. As has been mentioned many times on this blog, there is a place for the fuglies. Just don’t breed them! There might me an exception here and there, but I would bet your mare isn’t it.
September 4, 2007 6:50 AM
OK, IF that isn’t a personal attack on MY horse and I’m not supposed to take it that way, THEN why the hell did you write this? It is surely not a general statement. OH well, I was trying to get the whole mess overwith, but you had to get one last dig in didn’t you…I guess you are the type of person who feels she has to get the last word in. I’m sure your family loves dealing with that.
Don’t worry, you didn’t hurt my feelings.
Brigid’s Daughter said…
In something of the same vein, it really irritates me to no end when breeders can’t even correctly identify the colors of their horses. I could go on and on about how people not knowing the difference between a sabino and a roan drives me insane. Sometimes these things are important, people. If nothing else, those sorts of details show that you have some knowledge and actually care.
Agreed! APHA is the biggest culprit, registering sabinos as “roans”, when there is not a true roan in sight in the pedigree.
cenedra said, OK, IF that isn’t a personal attack on MY horse and I’m not supposed to take it that way, THEN why the hell did you write this? It is surely not a general statement. OH well, I was trying to get the whole mess overwith, but you had to get one last dig in didn’t you…I guess you are the type of person who feels she has to get the last word in. I’m sure your family loves dealing with that.
Don’t worry, you didn’t hurt my feelings.
Cenedra, that was in response to your statement, “I know I wouldn’t trade my mare for any of the top earners out there. Just because you are a snob doesn’t make my horse a piece of shit.”
I’ve heard this a million times from many who justify their lower quality horse (meaning not hugely desirable or marketable), who is probably not competitive with what people call a fancy pedigreed show horse. An analogy would be someone who street raced their 1977 Toyota Corolla with a Corvette, losing, then saying they don’t like Corvettes anyway. Sure, everyone loves their OWN horses. That does not translate into a desirable animal for breeding to a responsible breeder. If you are not a serious breeder, with decades of experience in pedigrees and phenotype, this will be a difficult concept to understand.
I have no desire to get in any last word or dig. My only desire is that you understand (not necessarily agree with) what my point is. Until you do, I will continue to respond.
chromecowgirl said, “Anyway, I do believe that even horses with shitty or no pedigrees can be very valuable animals in their own right. Look at all of the non-pedigreed hunter ponies out there that sell for 30,000+.”
While it is true that there are many grade horses that have huge value (because someone put the time and effort into them and MADE them valuable), please allow me to explain my position on this.
For example, a horse doesn’t need to be registered (or even be of any particular breed) to compete at the highest levels with NCHA and NRHA (open cutting and reining). There is big money to be won there. The fact is, most of the horses that DO compete at those venues are registered QHs, most with exceptional pedigrees, and a few Paints,usually bred similarly to those QHs. The registered horses are the ones who can go on after successful careers as a performer and be valuable breeding animals, possibly creating more valuable performers (and again, more breeding stock). While a non-registered animal may win a lot of money and have value to its owner, that horse most likely will not breed on. What purpose does it serve to put the time, money and effort into a non-registered, questionably-bred horse if it can’t be duplicated? At the end of its stellar career, unless the owner keeps it for life, it most likely will end up no different than your everyday, backyard variety of grade horse. No papers? Whose going to breed it? Not many. I realize that the English events, eventing, jumping, dressage, hunter ponies, etc., are oftentimes crossbreds, and horses who might even be considered grade. That is not my area of expertise; stock horse breeds are. I hope you understand my point here. There are always exceptions, but the rule is to try and use a quality, registered animal with a proven pedigree, if at all possible, to avoid the inevitability of a not-so-fortunate end to that horse’s life.
And, Cenedra, buying a mediocre quality registered horse, or taking on a fugly grade rescue horse is fine. Give it the quality of life it deserves. But please don’t justify its existence (mostly because it’s yours) by claiming its value is comparable (or exceeds) that of a quality horse representative of its breed.
Cenedra, when I said, “There might me an exception here and there, but I would bet your mare isn’t it,” That statement was from my many years of observation and experience. Chances are, your mare isn’t of the breeding or quality to warrant duplication (going by what you originally stated, “I disagree with the statement about a horse being a piece of shit if it doesn’t have a known name on the papers. I’m sure there are plenty of horses that are very valuable to their owners. I know I wouldn’t trade my mare for any of the top earners out there. Just because you are a snob doesn’t make my horse a piece of shit.”) If you make something of her, and she is a competitor at the upper levels of your breed, then she will probably be one the rare exceptions to the rule. I don’t go around stating my opinions in that manner unless someone has already called me names or gets shitty with me. I’m stating what I believe is the reality of the situation. I’m betting that if I saw the mare’s pedigree, and a photo of her, my opinion would not change. That doesn’t change the fact that you love her, and hopefully are giving her the quality of life she deserves. If she’s a QH, Paint, or TB, I will be more than happy to analyze her pedigree and phenotype, and give you my opinion on it, as that has been my “regular job” for many years.
For the Future-
I don’t need your justification to know that my mare IS QUALITY and marketable but thanks for the offer.
FTFOFB– After reading everyone’s discussion on this topic, I think I see what the problem is…
You, FTFOTB, are looking at the entire argument from a breeding/breeder’s standpoint. You are lumping every horse into two categories; breeding quality and non-breeding quality.
Everyone else seems to be categorizing them by using and non-using, i.e. riding, driving, lessons, trail, etc.
These are two very diffierent viewpoints, and while I agree that a well bred horse that has a wonderfully successful using career is then also dual purpose (usually) as a breeding animal. This by no means implies that grade horses with no pedigree but a wonderfully successful using career are not as valuable as the former. All it means is that once the grade horse’s career is finished, it does not have a career as a baby factory waiting for it.
Personally, I like to consider each horse on an individual basis. Grade horses are evaluated with a purpose other than breeding in mind, while registered horses are evaluated first for other than breeding, and second as breeding animals.
Personally, I would not pay as much for a grade horse that won 5 NCHA titles as I would a well bred registered one with the same winnings. BUT, I would gladly pay MORE money for a grade horse that is exceptionally well trained and competent in the discipline I am seeking, than paying the same amount for a registered horse that doesn’t know jack squat simply because it has papers.
IMHO, it all boils down to usefulness for the purchaser’s intended purpose. If someone is seeking a horse that is an excellent family trail horse, they will not be considering a horse on its producability as a breeding horse. Therefore, to that individual, a well bred registered horse may not be as valuable as a grade horse dependant upon its level of training.
Unfortunately, FTFOTB, I think you are failing to remove yourself from your personal point of view and consider the afore mentioned ideas. You seem to, like many breeders, feel that the ONLY quality animals are those with a strong pedigree. I hope that I am wrong, and that you are able to embrace the view points of others and you actually do feel that even grade (or poorly pedigreed) horses can be quality, valuable animals
No harm, no foul… Everyone is just looking at it from different viewpoints.
ChromeCowgirl- Thank you thank you thank you. You said exactly what I’ve been trying to say. Phew.
chromecowgirl said, “Unfortunately, FTFOTB, I think you are failing to remove yourself from your personal point of view and consider the afore mentioned ideas. You seem to, like many breeders, feel that the ONLY quality animals are those with a strong pedigree. I hope that I am wrong, and that you are able to embrace the view points of others and you actually do feel that even grade (or poorly pedigreed) horses can be quality, valuable animals.”
I DO understand from the different viewpoints. Yes, as a breeder, I tend to have opinions originating from that perspective. I’ve also mentioned many times that individual quality comes first, then pedigree. A good pedigree doesn’t always guarantee a quality horse, for sure. But my point was that a grade horse, no matter how nice it is, is most likely not going to have the value and quality of life equivalent to a quality registered horse (as a general rule). That’s all I’m saying.
I’ve never said that the ONLY quality animals are ones with a strong pedigree. The chances of a horse being quality are increased with a proven pedigree. I’ve never chosen a horse based on pedigree. I’ve always selected my horses based on individual quality. But I’ve never gone looking for a quality horse among unregistered stock. If I’m going to put my time, money and energy into a horse, it is going to be a quality, registered horse. That horse has the best chance at a decent quality of life should it ever leave my possession.
chromecowgirl said, “Personally, I would not pay as much for a grade horse that won 5 NCHA titles as I would a well bred registered one with the same winnings. BUT, I would gladly pay MORE money for a grade horse that is exceptionally well trained and competent in the discipline I am seeking, than paying the same amount for a registered horse that doesn’t know jack squat simply because it has papers.”
That is a given, and the way it should be.
ftfotb – Are you going to have an active blog? There seems to be one set up under your username with no posts… If you do start making entries, I want to be sure to read them.
rablash said…
ftfotb – Are you going to have an active blog? There seems to be one set up under your username with no posts… If you do start making entries, I want to be sure to read them.
Yes, I will eventually. I had one up for a day (LOL), but decided on a different format and content to use later. Thanks!
Then, employing their lack of spelling and punctuation, we’re barraged with ads solely in UPPER CASE or lower case. They either charge through the entire ad with the ALL CAPS key locked, like a bull in a China shop, or they make no distinction whatsoever and write endless run-on sentences in lower case. Either one sends me into twitching fits.
Hah! I am sooooo glad I’m not the only one! Argghh!!!
FFOTB said:
In fact, there are new studies regarding the mitochondrial DNA (MtDNA) that prove that certain traits are passed on ONLY through the female line, on the X chromosome.
Knowing your experience with genetics, I’m thinking you just confirmed some information I heard a long time ago. It was that while breeding daughter to father was acceptable (not to me BTW), that it was not recommended to breed son to mother as the DNA was too close. You mentioned the studies regarding MtDna, obviously that is what they meant a long time ago, but just didn’t explain it very well! Great guest blog!
MtDNA is passed on through the mother. When bred, the sperm only carries half of the DNA required to create the offspring, the other half of the DNA, plus all of the cell matter (i.e. mitochondria, endoplasmic reticulum and the cytoplasm in general) comes from the mother. As the mitochondria contains DNA, it is therefore reasonable to assume that 100% of the MtDNA comes from the mother.
To be honest, I wouldn’t breed any two animals that are directly related or within 2 or 3 generations of each other. Maybe I’m just applying human ethics to it, but I would think that there’s enough decent samples floating around (figuritively) to find a non-related match for a mare without spending a bundle. Unless you’re a BYB, of course.
graywolf said, “Knowing your experience with genetics, I’m thinking you just confirmed some information I heard a long time ago. It was that while breeding daughter to father was acceptable (not to me BTW), that it was not recommended to breed son to mother as the DNA was too close. You mentioned the studies regarding MtDna, obviously that is what they meant a long time ago, but just didn’t explain it very well! Great guest blog!”
Thank you. Yes, these new discoveries in genetics are confirming many things the old breeders knew from trial and error, and many years of experience. Now it’s official. So far, much of the studies on MtDNA have been with Thoroughbreds, but I’m sure much of the same theories would apply to other breeds. Right now, they’re talking about the aptitude for different distances (race performance ability) being passed down in tail female line, which could also translate into inherited performance ability for other disciplines. The problem with other breeds, such as some QHs, is many tail female lines are unknown.
luvmyfuglyhorse said…
Next question. if it looks like a dun but doesnt have a dorsal stripe it is NOT a dun
Then what is it? I had a client who had a horse that was the most awesome “orange” color. Her name was Pumpkin! (The horse, not the client). She had no dark points, no dorsal stripe, no webbing… just this really neat color. What would she be called if not dun?
Someone may have already answered this, as I haven’t made it through all the comments yet, so forgive me if I’m repeating someone else.
Red Duns can sometimes appear similar in color to a Chestnut horse, but their leg markings and dorsal stripe are usually just a few shades darker than their body color.
But funny thing is, my Horse Color book actually shows a horse that the color is listed as “linebacked orange dun.” It doesn’t really look orange to me…
Dontyouridenofuglyhorse said…
Ok most of you smarty pants folks have covered most of my pet peeves, but there are some that irritate me that you have not covered…
#1 Your bay foal from your grullo stallion and a bay mare is NOT GOING TO LIGHTEN. Foal coats are not born dark and lighten up. Unless they are a gray. Sorry.
#2 Your palomino bred to a black is NEVER going to produce you a Grullo unless the palomino is a dunalino. On the same note, that funny brownish, with yellow dapples colored foal you got out of your palomino mare bred to that black stallion is NOT A GRULLO. It is a smutty buckskin. A grullo is a dun diluted black horse. If you do not start with a dun parent you will never get a grullo.
#3 I do not care how many palomino and buckskin ancestors your sorrel horse has, it is NOT GOING TO THROW PALOMINOS and BUCKSKINS unless you breed it to one.
LMAO!! this reminded me of this dork at the PFHA Nationals one year, that swore up and down, that his black horse was born gray. I tried to explain that that was not possible. Before I could explain that many black horses are born a “slate” color that some might consider a gray color, he bit my head off with how I was not there, HE WAS! dumbass!
Of course, regarding the afore mentioned hypothetical horse, the whole colorful mess would end up looking just like any other gray with pinto patterned horse by the time it was about 4, because grey is dominant and only takes one copy to turn EVERY color horse into gray with age!
THAT is something I will NEVER understand! WTH would you breed a Paint/pinto to a gray horse???? It kind of defeats the point of a spotted horse! :-}
Kay said…
OMG my big PP is all the people usually youngsters, WCWW. IDK what they are thinking AWMR? If there are POS please tell them TWSACRI.
After all WYSIWYG. IISNF to the rest of us.
funny….but you did lose me on a couple of those!
WTF said:
f you don’t get laid, you won’t DIE, no matter how much fun it is to be prodded, positioned, to have your body melted and softened to be bent into the most unnatural, sweaty contortions like human origami meets BDSM all while cleaving breathily to a stoic, swarthy, fiercely disciplined tanguero with all the wiles of a cougar, the wit of a bard, the vision of a sculptor, the hands of a masseur, the will and resolve of a Riding Master, the masculinely robust yet athletically lithe body of a Lamborghini (the morgan, not the car), and the ability of Woodford Reserve to make it allll so damn likeable.
I’m confused…did I stumble on to a sex blog???? Heh, heh….
Graywolf said…
Kay said…
OMG my big PP is all the people usually youngsters, WCWW. IDK what they are thinking AWMR? If there are POS please tell them TWSACRI.
After all WYSIWYG. IISNF to the rest of us.
funny….but you did lose me on a couple of those!
translation
Oh My God my big Pet Peeve is all the people, usually youngsters Who Can’t Write Words. I Don’t Know what they are thinking Are We Mind Readers? If there are Parents Over Shoulders please tell them to Write So All Can Read It.
After all What You See Is What You Get. It Is So Not Fair to the rest of us.
Correct spelling, correct construction of the sentence, good photographs are all the reader knows about the seller.
No horse left behind…because of someone’s poor writing skills.
Rachel, mares are capable of passing on certain characteristics to their foals that stallion CANNOT, through mitochondrial DNA. What part of that is so difficult to understand? Yes, genetically, each parent contributes an equal amount of chromosomes to the foal. The genes on those chromosomes can be different, and that is where the unpredictability comes in. If everything was equal, then we’d know exactly what we’d get every time, wouldn’t we?
Mitochondrial DNA isn’t the same as cellular DNA. It is an interesting phenomenon, but only in the sense that it is unsusceptible to mutation. Most Western Europeans can trace their lineage back to one of seven “women” (Seven Daughters of Eve, interesting introduction to Mitochondrial DNA analysis and techniques…not an academic paper though)through mitochondrial DNA…but the mitochondrial DNA has very little impact on individual and population trait-variation. Mitochnodrial DNA is deeply buried in the Mitochondria of the cell…not the nucleus. The nucleus is where the individual’s genetic “instructions” are.
Using Mitochondrial DNA to justify the idea that mares contribute more to individuals than stallions is a bit of a perversion of the current research.
^
^
Just to add, (ADD)
mtDNA is a relatively new discovery, and while its influence on population genetics is indisputed, the impact on individual trait inheritance is at a much more theoretical stage.
Many breeders that I know insist that mares contribute more…then again, sometimes you have a stallion that seems to “sire true” no matter what mess of mares you breed them to.
Oops, I read a bit deeper (oooh, reading for comprehension!) and I think I see a bit of what you’re saying…”if everything was equal we’d know exactly what we’re going to get”
Another interesting point to note is the combinatorics of reproduction. Millions of sperm, only a few hundred thousand eggs…in terms of chromosomes there are a lot more potential combinations from the male than the female, which could also lead to the “mares breed true” thing.
I’m not a geneticist…you can probably tell from my comments that I am more math-centric…but I don’t think inheritance from the female line is as simple as slapping “mitochondrial DNA, duh” on it…we learn new things every day.
I have to admit, I love it when I hear people say that their foal is out of “stallion’s name.* Horses are OUT of a mare, and BY a stallion. Is that so hard to figure out, really? They come OUT of the mare, not the stallion.
sarcastabitch said, “I’m not a geneticist…you can probably tell from my comments that I am more math-centric…but I don’t think inheritance from the female line is as simple as slapping “mitochondrial DNA, duh” on it…we learn new things every day.”
I realize this…but, there has been research that indicates certain traits ARE passed on via MtDNA, such as performance aptitude. Dr. Steven Harrison (sp?) in the UK has done quite a bit of study on this, to the point of being able to assess certain horses using this research.
I was using MtDNA as partial validity that mares do influence their foals more than a sire does, in most cases. Everything else is subjective, and cannot be proven scientifically, especially to those who believe each parent contributes 50% to the foal in every way.
Yay for reviving nearly dead threads…at least this one has the potential for education!
I find the methods used to assess performance aptitude a bit sketchy in those studies. Horse judges seldom agree on what traits make a horse more “apt” to perform…the uncontrolled variables just sort of scream at me. It is very difficult to analyse animal inheritance and behavior in animals more complicated than fruit flies. I think that the UK studies are interesting, but in no way definitive. I’m not wholeheartedly disagreeing with you, but I don’t want anyone to leave with the idea that this theory is at the definitive stage yet. Even with humans, where we run some VERY controlled experiements and have a much better understanding of behavior, the mtDNA relevance in familial inheritance is poorly understood.
The behavioural impact that mares (mothers and herd mares) have on their foals is also a huge variable that behaviourists haven’t come close to understanding…and the study of orphan foals/foals on nurse mares have been pretty inconclusive; we just don’t understand horse personalities very well. A recently developed study on deer in Canada revealed that they have a much more nurturing social structure than ever thought possible…mother deer will respond to the distress calls of ANY fawn, not just their own, even when their own fawn is in sight. Then again, domestic horse breeding takes a lot of those variables out, by isolating mares and foals from their herds…and is that activity detrimental to their social/emotional development?
Both these aspects of inheritance applied to horse breeding are pretty fascinating though!
Oh, I DO agree with you on all that, too! I feel, though, that the observations many breeders have on their own stock have validity to them as well, even though none of it is scientifically proven.