Dear Judges: If you want the world to stop making fun of your breed…
Aug 28 2007
STOP placing fillies in halter with legs like this! 3rd place in a big futurity…WTF?
Good God! Look at those pasterns! They’re completely upright! Awful! She’s the poster filly for navicular disease!
This filly has a gorgeous neck, shoulder and hip…but the legs are just shitacious. This should not be placing at halter. I will be shocked if she’s still sound at age 5.
She’s N/N, I’ll give her that, but she’s selling as a broodmare prospect and I find that thought horrifying.
I know, this is what those of you who say shows are no indication of quality are thinking about when you say that. But I swear to you, this really isn’t typical of show quality horses in general or even halter horses in general. I know many, many halter point earning AQHA horses who have good legs and are sound and ride.
The standard has GOT to change. Nothing with those legs should EVER place in halter. EVER. I cannot say that strongly enough. That filly is the equine equivalent of a car with 4 flat tires and a broken axle.
I had to edit this post because I thought she was AQHA. She’s not. She’s a breeding stock APHA. Same thing. Same goofy judging.
300 comments to “Dear Judges: If you want the world to stop making fun of your breed…”
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cutnjump- looks like Mr. Tabor uses a chain through the mouth/over the gums on quite a few of the horses he shows. I do believe that most of them are VERY hot due to being cooped up in a stall most of the their lives and being hopped up on grain and other “supplements” that will make them look like they do. It really is a shame.
Want to see a major cropout? Not a tobiano, but a cropout Tovero. Google the paint stallion Gambling Man. He’s a cropout.
I like the paint job!
I found it interesting that he apparently was a champion halter horse, but in his photos, he appears camped under….but he certainly looks put together a heckuva lot better than the subject filly….
EASTOWEST said, ” Some of the solids you are counting are already fully characteristic/roaned, and some had spots over hips (doesn’t show in the photos so well but I saw them in person). Some of those classes had more colored horses than solid, and colored horses placed high, but didn’t win that day. I agree more color would be better, but was just illustrating that a good colored one CAN win if it gets shown.”
I’m not sure how it works with Apps, but with Paints, it seems the same way. Halter/solids, performers/more color. Now I have my own theories on all that, but they don’t go over too well sometimes. LOL. Of course, a good colored horse can win. There just isn’t very many of them that are as good as the solid ones. With Paints, most of the solid ones are from Overo or QH stock. You won’t see any solids from Tobiano stock doing much of anything at halter, for sure. Heck, most Tobianos don’t do well at halter. They sure dominate the cowhorse events, though. LOL.
CutNJump said…
Mil- I just looked at Kids Classic Lady. Did anyone but me notice in the first and fourth pictures, the chain is in her mouth running up over her gums?
A 3y/o mare that needs a chain over her gums? Okay either the horse is LOADED up on crack & out of control or the trainer IS.
We have stallions who we handle without a stud chain even for breeding. I can’t imagine that being legal in the ring.
===================================
It’s legal and very common in the APHA halter ring. A lip chain actually causes the horse to emit phermones and when used properly can be a good tool to show your horse.
AQHA however has made it illeagal on all horses, with the exception of stallions one year and over.
Nat said…
…A lip chain actually causes the horse to emit phermones…
are you sure you’re not thinking of endorphins??
http://www.bluefeatherwebdesign.com/simeon_sadik.htm
‘Fake’ webpage for a real horse; now This is an Arabian! I lover every Simeon horse I’ve ever seen; I wish I lived in Australia so that I could see them! He looks black, but I believe that he’s actually an extremely dark bay.
Graywolf said: “Nat said…
…A lip chain actually causes the horse to emit phermones…
are you sure you’re not thinking of endorphins?? “
Hey don’t pheremones often lead to Endorphins?
DONTYOURIDENOFUGLYHORSE said, “Hey don’t pheremones often lead to Endorphins?”
LOL. And hormones and pregnancies.
All kidding aside, I think pheromones are sex attractants; endorphins are a released calming hormone. I could be wrong, though.
Judges in the UK can and do place lower if the horse is not up to the BREED standard.
One owner wrote in to a magazine complaining that the lead rein pony she was showing under her young daughter was placed 2nd in a class of one.
The replies explained why…. the judge obviously considered the horse didn’t come up to the breed standard.
It’s the standard that horses are judged against, the ones coming closest to it being placed higher.
This is exactly the way that dog judges judge mixed group classes (Crufts is a prime example), you can’t judge different breeds against ‘each other’, you judge each one against it’s OWN breed standard.
And in the same way, we judge horses against their own breed standard, this allows you to judge the winning shire against a winning native pony etc, when judging the supreme champion at a County or National show.
>>>> Gambling Man. He’s a cropout.
>>>> I like the paint job!
I found it interesting that he apparently was a champion halter horse, but in his photos, he appears camped under….but he certainly looks put together a heckuva lot better than the subject filly….
Yes, Gambling Man was a champion halter horse…. and also an APHA Champion, Performance Versatility Champion, and APHA Supreme Champion– Superiors in Halter, Jumping, Working Hunter, Hunter Under Saddle, Western Pleasure…. 31 racing points with a record of 5-4-1 from 16 starts… ROMs in Racing, Barrel Racing, Reining, Steer Stopping, Heading, and Heeling…. I’d say his conformation didn’t hurt him much… LOL….
I took the APHA judges’ seminar a couple years ago and Jodi Finkbeiner taught the halter part of the studies…I have never disagreed with anyone MORE over conformation and then I found out ALL the horses he used in the class that he gave GLOWING reports on were HIS horses!!! How political does THAT get??
FTFOTB said: “LOL. And hormones and pregnancies.
All kidding aside, I think pheromones are sex attractants; endorphins are a released calming hormone. I could be wrong, though. “
Yes you are correct. My joke was
Pheremones=sexual attractant=Sex= Endorphins released….. so pregnancy is entirely possible!
>>>>I’m not sure how it works with Apps, but with Paints, it seems the same way. Halter/solids, performers/more color. Now I have my own theories on all that, but they don’t go over too well sometimes. LOL. Of course, a good colored horse can win. There just isn’t very many of them that are as good as the solid ones.
Years back, when solids first were allowed to show, I hear they dominated for awhile (ApHC has allowed solids to show for 25 + years now). But today, a good one is a good one– color is there, if you want it, in all disciplines– and it can win. I don’t think many if any judges will place solid just because its solid if there’s a better colored horse in the class that day. That said, I have seen observed some “patterns” (pun intended). Halter has its solids, but has usually had more color at the top end (especially stallions) than Western Pleasure or HUS…cattle classes seem middle of the road as far as color, and speed/games seems to have a fair bit more color proportionately…. BUT those observations may be outdated and ready to shift yet again! This year at Nationals a big LOUD leopard stallion was reserve World Champion 3 yo HUS is a tough class– and that stallion went on the WIN the 3yo Color class at the Reichert–beating the Paints, Buckskins, Palys, etc… the spotted/blanketed stallion that went 3rd at ApHC Nationals in 2yo WP went on to WIN the Reichert 2yo Limited- all breeds-
forthefutureofthebreed said…
”
OFCOL said, “Want to see a major cropout? Not a tobiano, but a cropout Tovero. Google the paint stallion Gambling Man. He’s a cropout.
He’s a splash Overo (with a Frame gene, too), not a Tovero. Unusual pattern and color placement, for sure. No Tobiano in his pedigree, so can’t be a Tovero.
News to me! Learn something new every day.
GeldTheBreedersOfFuglies! said…
Yes, graywolf, they are “disciplines.” But, I think what the OP was trying to point out was that there really is no consistent “breed standard” in AQHA anymore. Each discipline has sort of developed its own version of what the “breed” should look like.
Case in point: 17hh Appendix HUS horses vs. 14hh cutters. Both technically registered AQHA, but, in reality, about as distant apart as you can be.
I appreciate your considerate explanation for what I obviously misread.
Since I have Pasos, I obviously don’t have “insider knowledge” of some of the various “types” of QHs. Most of the QHs I have experience with are from my years working at the racetrack. There were only a few variances between the horses I saw.
are you sure you’re not thinking of endorphins??
==================================
OPPS! That’s exactly what I ment to type! Should of proof read my post – but dinner called – LOL!
Nat said…
OPPS! That’s exactly what I ment to type! Should of proof read my post – but dinner called – LOL!
hey, priorities man…gotta feed the brain cells!
My point about the App show (and I did watch it on the net and there were some colored horses in the classes but no more than half and half (halter). People aren’t going to show colored horses if judges will only place solid and as long as the judges come from the AQHA school of thought that is what will win.
I did say some of these horses would roan out BUT they are still going to be varnish roan only, NO pattern and most will be bred to more solid horses or minimal white patches on the butt. The end result is that the gene pool is getting seriously low on PATTERN genes, esp. loud leopards.
The judges use the excuse they can’t tell how a horse looks if it is colored or how it moves. Horse hockey. I’ve been judging horses for (mumblemumble) well a long time now and I can sure tell how they move and how they look.
I just think it is a sad situation when a color breed is turned solid for show ring fads. What is even more depressing is how little many (most?) App breeders know about the genetics of Lp and Pattern!
Oh well, that’s why I will not go back to that breed. Knabstruppers are pretty nice. And colorful…
I checked on those tobiano “QHs” and they are out of this mare http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/el+rebo+gal who by the lousy pictures seems to be a minimal tobiano. So either her dam or her dam’s dam were also minimal tobianos OR someone is not actually out of that dam. 3 minimal tobianos in a row on blue roan would be KINDA unusual, not impossible but unusual. And the next dam is an unknown (possibly a full blown tobiano). All these other mares are pretty old and of course no photos seem to exist of them.
Don’t know what happened with this horse of course but back then someone could have had this really pretty (OK not that pretty but nice color!) bay roan mare with flashy stockings but no pedigree and happened to have this pedigree for a blue roan filly and sold them together. That’s how they used to get them in back in the old days. Which were THAT long ago sadly. I remember being at a dealer’s house and he opened a drawer and showed me his “paper collection”. He said when he found a really nice horse with no papers he’d sort through the collection until he found one that matched (if he could). Pretty easy with bay and sorrel QHs! It was common back then to buy a horse with papers or without papers. You know they weren’t keeping those papers for the memories!
That was the late 70s, early 80s.
twhrider, It’s not as common anymore to enter more dogs to make a major but I’ve seen it done. I was showing a Shiba Inu for an owner
katrina–
My main focus breed was alaskan malamutes, but I showed a few shibas. Still have my first old champion bitch shiba. She’s a bit long in the tooth at 14….but she finished from the puppy class with 3 majors and a group placement from the classes. I finished her daughter in 8 shows with 4 majors. Nice breed.
everybody knows barbaro is working in a 7-11 in lithuania with elvis anyway.
Heh. I’m Lithuanian, and I never see it in references like that. You’re gonna have to get more obscure now!
wanna see some fugly Arabians
http://www.dakotaarabians.com/stallions_colts_geldings.htm
O.K. have my AQHA Official Handbook beside me (granted it’s 5 years old; they could have changed some stuff) but under Halter Classes; here goes;
The ideal AQH shown at halter is a horse that possesses the following characteristics: the horse should possess eye appeal that is the result of a harmonious blending of an attractive head; refined throat latch; well-proportioned, trim neck; long, sloping shoulder; deep heart girth; short back; strong loin and coupling; long hip and croup; and well-defined and muscular stifle, gaskin, forearm and chest. These characteristics should be coupled with straight and structurally correct legs and feet that are free of blemishes. The horse should be a balanced athlete that is muscled uniformly throughout.
I know this filly is BS APHA, however I would imagine the “standard” is similar. I guess they went for muscular and straight; hang the rest.
Oh, and I can not find anything that suggests that a judge is permitted or encouraged to withhold ribbons/placings.
Disqualifications include;
Obvious lameness is: consistently observable at a trot, marked nodding, hitching or shortened stride, minimal weight bearing in motion and/or at rest and inability to move.
Again, if the APHA is similar; looks like if the filly had actually moved; a judge might have had grounds for dq.
Further to the dq; all lame horses, cryptorchids and parrot mouthed horses should be excused from the ring prior to final placing by the judge.
And just in case you were curious where the AQHA association’s loyalties lie;
here are some disqualifications (assorted classes)(non-placement) – failure by exhibitor to wear correct number in a visible manner, willful abuse, excessive schooling or training, fall by horse or rider, illegal use of hands on reins.
Keep in mind; kicking at other horses, exhibitors or judge OR sever disobedience of horse including rearing, bucking or pawing is only a serious fault and places above a disqualification.
O.K., found one entry with regards to judges placing classes;
Judges must;
#8 place through 9 places in classes where there are 9-34 horses exhibited. All qualified horses exhibited shall be placed in classes of nine or less.
Obvious lameness is: consistently observable at a trot, marked nodding, hitching or shortened stride, minimal weight bearing in motion and/or at rest and inability to move.
ok – am I misreading this or is this perfect for disqualifying all those 4 beat, head nodding, i really can’t canter horses out of western pleasure?? let alone out of the halter classes that I think the judges should make all horses trot around ring the entire ring once coming in, and once after lineup to be sure no one is lame and be sure they see all movement errors. Just my opinion, as I now have QH’s and sure don’t ever plan on showing if this is what it’s about. And these are multi thousand +
dollar show horses??!! Money = quality —my BFWAss!!! I’d rather buy a no known show history horse, with parents that don’t have a show history till at least a few generations back of working horses; that has good conformation and mind for breeding purposes and start over on what the breed needs!!!
We had an American judge as a guest judge at the Aussie Paint Horse national show last year, and he made some interesting comments. He said that he was surprised that there were no lame horses in the halter classes in Australia as he sees quite a few unsound horses in the USA. It is actually in our rules that leg conformation is important, however legs are not judged in the USA. Its also in our rules that HYPP H/H or N/H can not be registered.
Holy Cow….and I mean litterally COW…lol
Look at this site for sume seriously deformed halter QHs. The first picture on the page of Caribbean Kid, is him at 8 MONTHS old !
http://www.triplecranchllc.com/
The 2007 APHA rule book says, regarding halter horses:
The judge shall make an individual examination for conformation defects, soundness and way of travel of each horse at the walk and jog trot as it is led directly to and away from the judge and additionally the jog from a direct side angle. The judge may ask for further individual examination he feels is needed. Any deviation from correct leg conformation and way of going shall be penalized. The horse must move straight and true. This is essential regardless of whether the competition indicated that it is necessary or not….
The ideal standard in evaluating horses in halter classes should include, but not limited to, a positive combination of balance, breed and sex character, soundness and correctness of conformation, particularly feet and legs, with emphasis on correct manner of travel and muscling.
Oops I can’t spell today…sorry ’bout that, it’s soposed to be ‘Some’ in my previous post
A friend contacted the Perchie owner. That price is *not* a typo. :-0
Hey Forthefutureofthebreed I like your picturein your profile your stallion Berry Cool is a very pretty horse
You guys, just another topic here, but haven’t you noticed most of the world doesn’t “see” lameness…and when they do, they don’t admit to it? How many times have you heard “oh he starts out a little stiff” or “she goes a little short on that hind left but it’s never bothered her.” Anything but say the L word!
Arabians4ever at least that stallion is N/N he is huge but does have a pretty face
http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-48747
Holy Geezus! What is this thing? Why is it worth 10K????
>>>>My point about the App show ….. People aren’t going to show colored horses if judges will only place solid and as long as the judges come from the AQHA school of thought that is what will win.
MY point was that the fact that colored horses won some big classes, and that colored horses placed ahead of a bunch of solids in several other classes, pretty much disproves the thought that “judges will only place solid”. The ApHC has allowed solids to show for 25+ years now. The great thing is, Appaloosas are “the breed of choice.” If you breed/buy a solid that has what it takes in your chosen discipline, you can show it. If you like color, even leopards, you can breed and/or own and/or show them to your heart’s content– and the vast majority of judges ARE able and willing to look past the color and pin the right horse. (Did you catch my post about the bold blanketed horse that won the Reichert 2yo limited Western Pleasure against ALL breeds? And the loud LEOPARD that won the Reichert 3 year old color Hunter Under saddle class over solid and minimal and other colored Paint, Buckskin, Palomino, and etc.? Judged by NSBA judges?)
Look at this site for sume seriously deformed halter QHs. The first picture on the page of Caribbean Kid, is him at 8 MONTHS old !
http://www.triplecranchllc.com/
More freakish, that’s-gotta-be-photoshopped QHs. Good lord.
And the “Shipped Semen Available” over the picture of Johnnt Depp is oogey too.
LOL moontoad – i could have said ‘wagga wagga’.. but noone really LIVES there
Arabians4ever said…
Holy Cow….and I mean litterally COW…lol
Look at this site for sume seriously deformed halter QHs. The first picture on the page of Caribbean Kid, is him at 8 MONTHS old !
http://www.triplecranchllc.com/
OMG – The first pic showing him as a yearling – I couldn’t tell what he was! I thought he was some kind of freak arab on steroids! I had to scroll down to his papers to figure out that he was a AQHA -
Oh and to top it off, he has Impressive on both top and bottom – fortunately the say he’s N/N – but why take a gamble like that?
“ He is truly what the industry needs now….. and we are willing to SHARE!!! ummm, thanks, but no thanks – you can keep my share….
Eugh, That yearling pic freaks me out. Really. WHY?
I keep looking at those legs and thinking it MUST be trick photography !! They CAN”T be real…. CAN they ??!!
I thought all Halter classes, whatever the breed, asked for the horse to be run out [I know we do here], how on earth can that poor beast walk let alone trot ?
I must say that I think she has a rather fugly head too for a mare, okay for a gelding, maybe, but not feminine in any way.
Nice bum though…pity about the rest of her.
Here’s some food for thought for the BYB’s and Horsemills, you CAN have a horse that has good conformation, temperament, movement AND breed type, just be more particular about what you breed !
I have two mares of different breeds, both of which have good conformation [no defects], great temperaments and excellent movement and are typey examples of their breeds. Neither cost more than $1000 [with full registration], but both were from abusive/neglectful owners, so were worth bugger-all when I got them due to their condition; but whoever bred them in the first place had some idea of quality.
I believe all judges should take the initiative and refuse to place a horse that has a glaring conformational defect, they are supposed to be judging the best example of the breed that they would use to breed with, but I am sure a lot of judges wouldn’t know good conformation if it bit them in the arse, and the rest probably just go by the name of the owner or handler ! Sometimes you might as well leave the horse at the float/ in the stall and just line up the handlers !
that caribbean kid is just… good GOD its not from EARTH. its a snakenaked, bullock arsed TRAVESTY. its the meat monster that ate texas!!! (and forgot to go to the loo afterwards..)
they are right on one thing though – i DONT know what hit me. feels like bad crack. surprise surprise hes out of a ‘mr bringin’ obesity back’ ima cool skip mare. his ONLY good point is his N/N status… which is like marrying a penniless, toothless 70 year old bum you found at the bus station and saying ‘well at least he doesnt have AIDS!’
nice job on the blatant disney imagery usage too… wonder what the nausea inducing crippled toad will sell for when they have to fund that lawsuit?
Summerhorse said:
I remember being at a dealer’s house and he opened a drawer and showed me his “paper collection”. He said when he found a really nice horse with no papers he’d sort through the collection until he found one that matched (if he could). Pretty easy with bay and sorrel QHs! It was common back then to buy a horse with papers or without papers. You know they weren’t keeping those papers for the memories!
kind of reminds me of a story I heard about a large Paso breeder a few years ago. He had a pasture full of mares and babies, and if a prospective buyer wanted a certain “bloodline”, well lo and behold, that little colt/filly right there is from that bloodline. No DNA testing at the time, just his word. Needless to say, with DNA testing, they can’t pull that kind of malarkey!
To Ramie who loves Simeon Sadik, yes, he is a true black. I used to drool over him when he was here [I still do !!LOL] and, and before he was exported, I wished that my pure Polish Vivo mare was not infertile, she was only 14.1, but super conformation and explosive movement, and yes, a great temp too, but she had cysts on her ovaries and at that time I could not afford the complications of trying to harvest a viable ova on top of the service/AI fee ! [and single-handedly paying the mortgage et al, and providing for all my four-leggeds !]
My current filly is a Simeon Shai granddaughter [I believe he has done very well over there !]. I have seen very few Simeon-bred Horses that I would kick out of my stables ! I even have my Standardbred mare [yes, correct conformation, great temperament and huge movment; in fact my horse chiro, an expatriate of yours ! who breeds QH's here said that if he had not seen her neck-brand he would have taken her as a QH, and I know his stock is in the style of Temonee [drool] and not the plank-legged, steroid-pumped-looking crap some have]in foal to a Simeon-bred stallion [sire Simeon Solomon [Al Karim Jabal Ibn Moniet], dam Simeon Shari [I believe the US imported her too!], for a derivative [half-Arab for you guys] and am eagerly awaiting my first own-bred foal [after 28 years of owning and training [my own and my slacker friends, who like how I do it and take advantage !! LOL]. My mare is 20 this year and has given good service to me and although not shown [we have breed classes for SB's now], she was the most easily trainable horse I have ever had the pleasure to work with, so as she is correct and the sire was an exemplary example of horseflesh and super typey, I wanted a foal for my future riding horse/show horse. Whether it is colt or filly it will not be for sale ! I live for my animals and my will demands humane euthanasia of ALL my critters if I happen to meet with an unfortunate end, it may sound harsh to some, but when they have had the life they have had with me [my ferrets have their own bedroom !], I could not bear for them to be subjected to anything less than the care and love I provide them. I can hear some objections brewing on that !!
On another track, when looking at some of the QH’s in the US Halter rings, I am wondering if the steroid ban is actually adhered to ? Also don’t these people know that if there is excessive weight on the growing bones, it can cause damage ?
You guys, just another topic here, but haven’t you noticed most of the world doesn’t “see” lameness…and when they do, they don’t admit to it? How many times have you heard “oh he starts out a little stiff” or “she goes a little short on that hind left but it’s never bothered her.” Anything but say the L word!
You’ve got that one soooo right. We went to look at a cute little blue roan mare last weekend. She had a rather large scar on a front pastern/coronet area. We asked about it, and got told a rather incredible story of a truly nasty injury that had happened several months prior. “But…she was never lame on it….” I had to bite my tongue to keep from saying “Well dammit…you need to get your eyes checked because she’s off on it now!!!”
Caribbean Kid is also one heck of an inbred animal…he has no fewer than 6 lines to Impressive in 4 generations, and those are only the ones I recognized on sight. He may have 1 or 2 more.
Inbreeding in and of itself isn’t bad…but anybody breeding to him might consider an outcross if they want future breeding stock.
they might also consider a lobotomy and giving up crack for good! *LMAO*
fuglyaussiesupporter said…
“I can hear some objections brewing on that !!”
not from me you wont. its the only way you can guarantee their fate once theyre out of your hands (god forbid, i mean!) i think youre very sensible.
despite being an athiest myself… imagine if there IS a heaven, and youre looking down to see your precious companions falling from grace to starvation, auctions and slaughter because you couldnt make the harsh decision. seems worse to me. i dont like to piss off fate!! *L*
Slinky said…
Caribbean Kid is also one heck of an inbred animal…he has no fewer than 6 lines to Impressive in 4 generations, and those are only the ones I recognized on sight. He may have 1 or 2 more.
Caribbean Kid has 7 crosses to Impressive.
Also, the crosses to Impressive are further back than you stated. He has 1 cross in the 4th generation, 3 in the 5th generation, and 3 crosses in the 6th generation.
Wow, looking at that pic of the filly makes my legs and feet hurt:-( What will she ever be able to do athletically? So sad.
My AQHA Appendix mare and her filly came from a backyard Paint breeder/horse dealer. He had a good idea of quality though and bred for it. Yes they were, gasp, color breeders, but my mare and her filly are good quality well-conformed animals and the color on the filly is a nice bonus. She’s a nice colorful bay Tobi with ink spots and paw prints. It is possible to be a BYB and still breed quality. I just don’t understand why all this crap is being put on the ground. Morons.
crazyhorse said…
I took the APHA judges’ seminar a couple years ago and Jodi Finkbeiner taught the halter part of the studies…I have never disagreed with anyone MORE over conformation and then I found out ALL the horses he used in the class that he gave GLOWING reports on were HIS horses!!! How political does THAT get??
Jodi Finkenbinder is a woman.
summerhorse said…
If all these people love solid horses why don’t they just show QHs?
****
Ooh! Ooh! I know the answer to this! Pick me! Pick me!
On one of our App groups it was just brought to our attention what the entry fees are for AQHA world. $550-$1500 PER CLASS!! Holy Crap! We pay $85 per class at our World Show. Gee, since most people show at least 3 or 4 classes, hopefully more like 8-10, which club do you want to belong to?
Besides that, the big fish in our pond are little minnows when they get to AQHA World or Congress.
here’s another that placed 3rd in futurity. I thought show horse legs were supposed to be CORRECT???!!! http://www.bar-2.com/images/092306ShortcakeLandRush2.jpg
It’s also a whole lot easier to breed and show and reach the top in the stock breeds in halter other than AQHA. If you took most top solid Apps and most top solid Paints and stood them up against the best of an AQHA horse, there would be no comparison. People who breed Apps and Paints have been trying to create something comparable to the best QHs, only with color. They’ve gotten close, but not quite. I’m sure there are exceptions, but not many.
[url=http://www.triplecranchllc.com/SpecialSalehorses.html]I just threw up in my mouth[/url] a little… Look at that poor palomino mare!!!
I guess they have taken “straight” legs to the extreme- if she’s being bred to Caribbean Kid, just imagine how post legged their foal will be. Ugh.
She can’t even stand normally- the hind legs are SO straight it pushes the hocks outwards just standing- this makes me want to stab my eyes out with a rusty fork!
I’ve seen Carribean Kid in person and just finished looking at their website. It seems to me that what most everyone here is commenting about is manmade. If you look through his weight, excessive muscling, and sweated neck, he is basically conformationally correct. His legs could be better but I have seen FAR worse.Take 50-100 pounds off him and ease up on the fitting and you would see a much different horse. Would I breed to him? probably not because at a $2700 fee, I can find many more stallions that fit my tastes better but at least he is N/N.
And thanks Lopin-to-win, you beat me to the correction about Ms.Finkenbinders gender.
I don’t think caribbean kid’s problems are all related to muscling and fitting out- he has a “pig butt” which is related not only to muscle and fat but to bone structure. Not only are his hocks very straight, but the bone structure of his entire back end, from the SI to the point of buttock to the stifle, is very open and straight.
Yes, he would look much more palatable if he lost a couple hundred pounds, but he’s still not in any way CLOSE to being a functionally built horse. Even fit in a normal way, he would likely not have much, if any, forward reach of the hind legs or ability to absorb shock behind. He would very likely have major hock and stifle problems fairly early if he were ever asked to actually do anything.
He’s got a slightly better front end than many “big time” halter horses, but if that’s the best you can say about a horse…
if thats conformationally ‘correct’, im jennifer flippin’ lopez.
the horse has TWO sets of hindquarters on the one butt! only someone used to (or blind to) looking at halter horses could NOT see what a ‘roid junkie COW that is, on spindly little breyer horse legs.
id rather breed to this:
http://www.adhurl.com/uploads/
Body%20builder-thumb.jpg
I believe you missed my point pertaining to my post. I didn’t mean to imply that I liked him, all I meant was that many of his flaws are caused by human intervention. He does have some bad points that are conformational flaws and faults IMO but he does have good points as well. Again I say I wouldn’t breed to him because while we do breed for halter horses,a good percentage of our foals go on to have careers as performance as well as halter horses.
The problem with halter showing in almost every breed is that youngsters are shown, not mature riding horses. I wonder how it would change if a horse had to be ridden at a show on Friday or Saturday in order to be able to show in halter on Sunday morning? Of course **** bangs head on desk **** this is NEVER going to happen.
Your welcome YesIHalter
I was picking Carribean Kid apart as well and think he is really a pretty cool horse.
Underneath all that muscle is just a pretty boy with a lot of manmade bulk.
I don’t show show halter regularly
but do know what it takes to fit a halter horse (somewhat). After the show career is over and they quit supplementing, dumping feed to them, and working them, they look pretty much like the normal horse that most people are used to seeing. Unfortunately it can take a toll on those poor feet and legs if the trainer is not careful.
People don’t realize how hard it is to make one look like that and that it is mostly manmade. Nor do they understand why anyone would do that to a horse. It’s just the industry.
The same goes for WP, dressage, jumping etc…
You don’t see a horse just go for a 5 minute slow jog with his head level on a consistant basis going through the pature.
You also don’t see one moving along through the pature with the animation of the dressage horse.
And you certainly don’t see a
horse picking out fallen logs to jump over just for the fun of it.
I think all disciplines can be great if the horses health is not at stake.
Face it all horse showing and riding is manmade to some degree.
I am glad to see that the halter horse industry heading a little more toward a horse that can be used for something other than just halter. I know it will take time but they are beginning to head that direction it seems.
Lopin-to-win, The movement to a more usuable halter horse is going to take time but I am a firm believer that it will eventually come about. With todays saturated markets, more and more big name halter breeders are realizing that the foals they produce need to be more than just pretty ( or what they conceive to be pretty) and that their market value will be greater if they can do more than just stand in a lineup for 10 minutes. 10 years ago, every show I judged had halter classes filled with obese,muscle bound animals that could barely carry their own weight. Now, even though there are still a significant amount of those types showing, there is a growing number of the sleeker,correct, “looks like they can ride” types showing up. A trend I hope continues to grow.
“trend” wasn’t the best word to use as most trends come and go… Hopefully this mindset stays around for a very long time to come.
>>You also don’t see one moving along through the pature with the animation of the dressage horse.< <
The very very goo ones often do. That’s what makes them so good.
>>And you certainly don’t see a
horse picking out fallen logs to jump over just for the fun of it.< <
Some of ours do! Of course, that’s only the ones who really love jumping, but it’s nice to see.
kyani said
The very very goo ones often do. That’s what makes them so good.
Oh I agree they can and will but not for the length of time that we are asking them to.
We pick our prospects first by watching their movement as babies in the pasture.
Very nice:
http://www.honeybearfarm.com/HBFIronMan_Frame.htm
Meant to say very nice operation with very nice Paints. Wish they could all be that way.
Here is another example of poor breeding. This colt is by the same stallion that the filly shown is by. He won the triple crown and then due to the overindulgence of the owner…he has never been seen again. To think…he was bought as a stallion prospect.
http://www.superbowlkid.us/html/jims_foals_0.html
HorsePoor said…
Very nice:
http://www.honeybearfarm.com/
HBFIronMan_Frame.htm
Excellent examples of people using QUALITY TB blood to enhance their Paints and QHs.
Yep FFOB. Reminds me of my 2 y/o Paint filly. Lovely TB legs, neck and head and nice QH booty and muscling. Those are nice Paints.
HorsePoor said…
Yep FFOB. Reminds me of my 2 y/o Paint filly. Lovely TB legs, neck and head and nice QH booty and muscling. Those are nice Paints.
I’m a firm believer in using TB and speed blood to enhance the QHs and Paints, even if they aren’t used for racing. Thoroughbreds can add intelligence, agility, speed, elegance, refinement, and proper conformation. But try telling that to the cowhorse folks (the most in need in outcross blood) who say they don’t want a “17h cutter”. LOL.
Off topic, but I thought you paint folks would like to see this picture I took at Hot August Nights a couple of weeks ago here in the Reno area.
Sparks, NV mounted patrol.
Forthefuture:
How can adding TB blood to a QH line improve “proper conformation”?
Don’t TBs have somewhat different conformation than a QH? So, how can adding TB characteristics make “Proper” QH conformation? Most of the Appendix QHs I’ve seen have been leggy, lean, small-hipped guys, many with bigger, plainer heads. Not exactly “proper” QH conformation.
TBs are pretty, but they are NOT “proper” QH conformation.
I agree that it might add some speed and refinement…but why would I want to breed cow sense out of my QH? You don’t HAVE to linebreed or inbreed to get a good cow horse.
ORANGEELMO said, “Off topic, but I thought you paint folks would like to see this picture I took at Hot August Nights a couple of weeks ago here in the Reno area.”
Cool picture, thanks for sharing!
GeldTheBreedersOfFuglies! said…
Forthefuture:
How can adding TB blood to a QH line improve “proper conformation”?
Don’t TBs have somewhat different conformation than a QH? So, how can adding TB characteristics make “Proper” QH conformation? Most of the Appendix QHs I’ve seen have been leggy, lean, small-hipped guys, many with bigger, plainer heads. Not exactly “proper” QH conformation.
TBs are pretty, but they are NOT “proper” QH conformation.
I agree that it might add some speed and refinement…but why would I want to breed cow sense out of my QH? You don’t HAVE to linebreed or inbreed to get a good cow horse.
Adding an outcross of good TB blood would work much the same way it has in the past.
Some TBs have different conformation than QHs. Those are not the types I’m referring to. TBs are as diverse in type as QHs are.
“Proper” conformation does not include lack of substance, heartgirth, short pasterns, straight shoulders, short hip, and short necks. Since many top cutting horse folks have stated that an outcross is needed (due to issues they’re experiencing now), TB blood is perfect, and an acceptable outcross with AQHA.
Using TB outcross blood for QHs has not been proven to lose the cow sense. The breeders of major NCHA title earners like Miss N Cash, Squeak Toy and others would probably disagree with that. Knowledgeable horseman have always acknowledged that a good QH has plenty of speed blood in his pedigree.
And, take a look around at the majority of the horses who are registered with the various foundation QH associations. They do not allow TB outcross blood. What do you have because of it? Nothing.
GELDTHEBREEDERSOFFUGLIES! said, “You don’t HAVE to linebreed or inbreed to get a good cow horse.”
Umm, you might want to tell that to all the major breeders of reiners and cutters out there today. And yes, they linebreed. They have to. That gene pool of cowsense is quite small. I’m not sure I know about too many top cutting horses who are NOT Doc O’Lena-bred, or Doc Bar, or Peppy San Badger. And if you don’t think they linebreed, then explain how HERDA came to light.
Yes, Future, I can see your points. You cited good examples, and explained yourself well. I do have to agree with you for the most part.
I do know that cowhorse breeders linebreed, and, unfortunately, they often take it to extremes. And, I do agree that an outcross CAN and usually IS a good thing. I personally don’t mind seeing a little (GASP!) halter horse blood in a rope horse; I think it can add some pretty (HYPP N/N, of course).
I guess my beef stems from the people who have taken it to an extreme. As I have said before (I think maybe even in this very thread?) a 3/4 (or greater) TB Appendix is NOT a Quarter Horse!
And, yes, I do see the trainwreck of “Foundation” breeding. Gag! Usually, it’s a contest to see who is more “inbred” – the horses or the owners.
You wrote: “Knowledgeable horseman have always acknowledged that a good QH has plenty of speed blood in his pedigree.” I certainly hope you didn’t mean to imply that I was not a “Knowledgeable horseman.” I know plenty; I just don’t always express it very well. I try to keep an open mind, I associate with reputable, nationally-known breeders and horsemen, and I will be the first to admit that I don’t know all there is to know.
I think that is the TRUE key to being knowledgeable in the horse industry – a person needs to admit that there’s always more to learn. Of course, the same goes for life in general, I suppose.
But there are some topics (such as what I call “Over-Appendix-izing” of Quarter Horses) that just really get my goat.
Have a great day!
GELDTHEBREEDERSOFFUGLIES! – I wasn’t implying anything like that. I tend to speak in generalities, just for that very reason. Someone always gets offended. LOL.
I do agree that a 17h HUS QH is not a QH, per se. That is a TB. And that is not the type of outcross I’m talking about. Three Bars (TB) was only 15 hands, and he LOOKED like a QH. That is the type of outcross I’m referring to. The Plummers of Buffalo Ranch have a TB stallion that they’ve bred to many of their top NCHA money-earning mares, for first cross outcross cutting horses. Many of those mares are by Smart Little Lena. And they do not feel they will lose cow sense. TBs can have cow sense, too. Of course, time will tell if they’ve chose the right TB. If you’re into cowhorses, and get the QH News, there was a good article in the Jan 15, 2006 issue on the need for outcross blood, and the use of TBs, and why. It provided both sides to the controversy.
I learn something new every day. When I come to the point when I think I have learned it all will be the day I need to get out of horses and find something else to do.
I am into cowhorses, although I tend to get more into the ropers and working cow than I do the cutters. I enjoy watching them, but since I moved back north, I just haven’t had the exposure to them that I get to the other disciplines at the shows.
I used to write for QHN. I’ll have to look that article up.
FuglyHorse blogger I love you!
I do think it is more helpful to show conformation faults in well-groomed, well-posed, well-photographed ‘show’ horses.
In some (though by no means all) of the pics of scruffy backyard horses, one wonders if the quality of care and photography is sometimes more ‘fugly’ than the horse itself.
It is shocking that a horse with such glaring conformation faults can win/place in halter classes. But by no means unusual – it happens in the Arab showing world as well, although I think (don’t shoot me!) rather less often here in the UK than in the US.
I am the proud owner of an international halter champion Arab stallion. He is only 3 years old, not even backed yet, let alone proven in any way under saddle. All he has proved so far is that he can prance around on a string looking pretty in the show ring.
So I was rather surprised to get dozens of breeders queuing up and falling over themselves to send mares to him – he was the most popular first-season Arab in the UK this year. Admittedly, most of these breeders were breeding ‘show-Arabs’, but in some cases I had requests from people who were specifically breeding for endurance or other performance disciplines.
In these cases, I felt I had to tell the breeders that my stallion had not yet ‘earned’ the right to cover their mares – and that they should be looking at proven endurance or racing sires, or at least at ridden stallions with some kind of a track record under saddle.
My boy will be backed this autumn, and will go out and prove himself under saddle, but a great many show-Arabs are never even ridden at all, let alone subjected to any rigorous testing that would expose their unsoundness.
This makes it even more important for halter judges to penalize conformation faults.
And what’s with this fashion for low-set necks and ‘downhill’ build in QHs and Paints and other ‘western’ breeds? I was told by an enthusiast the other day that my boy could not be ridden western cos his neck-set is waaaay too high! I was always taught that a high-set neck and ‘uphill’ build were good and desirable qualities in a riding horse!???
[IMG]http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t224/htobago/tobagomalvern0122-1.jpg[/IMG]
GeldTheBreedersOfFuglies! said…
I am into cowhorses, although I tend to get more into the ropers and working cow than I do the cutters. I enjoy watching them, but since I moved back north, I just haven’t had the exposure to them that I get to the other disciplines at the shows.
I used to write for QHN. I’ll have to look that article up.
Cool. If you don’t find it, let me know. And if you’re more into rope horses, speed plays a huge part. I grew up team roping myself, and most of those horses were either off the track or bred to run; they were not foundation QH types. They were the types that earned AAA ratings on the track and also earned AQHA Championships (so they were decent looking enough to earn halter points, too). Speed blood has played an important part in the development and maintenance of good QHs. Three Bars (TB) pretty much dominated every discipline within the breed for many years. But there were other TBs that did well crossed on QHs, like Depth Charge, Top Deck, Direct Win, Kiptydoo, Azure Te, Truly Truckle, Aforethought, and earlier, horses like Chicaro, Joe Blair, Fleeting Time, Greenock Sixty, King Plaudit, Ashwell, Captains Courageous, Piggin String, Spotted Bull, Moolah Bux, Time Prince, Killoqua, Carrara Marble, and many more. Rugged Lark was sired by a TB stallion, and he was a pretty horse, and very versatile. A lot of cowhorse folks tend to think of all TBs as 17h, slab-sided nutcases, and don’t bother studying what really created the good QHs in the first place.
Arabgirl said:
And what’s with this fashion for low-set necks and ‘downhill’ build in QHs and Paints and other ‘western’ breeds? I was told by an enthusiast the other day that my boy could not be ridden western cos his neck-set is waaaay too high! I was always taught that a high-set neck and ‘uphill’ build were good and desirable qualities in a riding horse!???
WTF? That’s just silly! I show my Pasos in WP. Obviously they don’t have the low head set of a QH…they wouldn’t gait right if they did! Don’t listen to that malarkey…if you want to ride western and your horse has the mindset for it…go for it!
forthefutureofthebreed said…
I’m a firm believer in using TB and speed blood to enhance the QHs and Paints, even if they aren’t used for racing. Thoroughbreds can add intelligence, agility, speed, elegance, refinement, and proper conformation. But try telling that to the cowhorse folks (the most in need in outcross blood) who say they don’t want a “17h cutter”. LOL.
****
FTFOTB, one of the biggest cutting horses of today is Miss N Cash who is by Dash for Cash. He is not all “cowy” bred. Some people are crossing out. If you do a search by his name you can find his webpage, lists his numerous wins and his offsprings.
I live near an appy halter guy who has had many world and national show winners (money will buy anything I guess)He’s a Canadian, so you may know who I’m talking about. I’ve been to his barn and his halter horses are all standing on tiny feet and rediculously upright pasturns. They would never handle riding…what’s the point of breeding these horses? Thankfully he seems to be more into reining now and has got some horses that are put together to ride.
SPOTTED T APPS said, “FTFOTB, one of the biggest cutting horses of today is Miss N Cash who is by Dash for Cash. He is not all “cowy” bred. Some people are crossing out. If you do a search by his name you can find his webpage, lists his numerous wins and his offsprings.”
Please see my post from 10:35am here this morning, thanks. I’m real familiar with Miss N Cash. My friend, Bobby Nelson rode his dam to NCHA Futirity and Snaffle Bit Futurity wins.
i agree with graywolf – horses for courses. if the purpose of a western horse is to move like a heavily doped sewing machine drilling into the forehand to a mental soundtrack of bob marley utilizing all the energy and enthusiasm of a koala crossing the road… then thats just fine *LMAO*
sorry, i mean “smooth gaited” *evil grin*
Sorry FTFOTB, missed that one. Glad we’re on the same level.
GELDTHEBREEDERSOFFUGLIES! and Spotted T Apps – Here are some more NCHA cutting horses sired or produced by winning racehorses, besides Miss N Cash, just for the record. These are only some of the major NCHA title holders, and “winning racehorses” is the key word here. There are many more. These are just a few of the major ones. When someone says that speed blood or TB will take out the cow sense, I find it pretty funny.
Squeak Toy, 1988 NCHA Non-Pro Derby Champion. Out of the winning TB mare, Sculptor’s Whim.
Little Joe Jones, 1968 NCHA Futurity Res Champion. Out of the AAA QH racemare, Fickle Fortune (by Red Jones TB).
Sam Superstar, 1975 NCHA Futurity Res Champion. Sired by Supreme Champion Goodbye Sam.
Chickasha Anita, 1974 NCHA Non-Pro Fut Res Ch; 1975 Derby Res Ch; 1975 Non-Pro Derby Co-Ch; Sired by Leo Bingo, AAA race horse.
Chickasha Bingo, 1969 NCHA Non-Pro Futurity Champion; sired by Leo Bingo, AAA race horse.
Wee Darlin, 1975 NCHA Non-Pro Futurity Champion. Sired by the stakes winning TB sire, Wee Folk.
Beats All, 1972 NCHA Non-Pro Futurity Res Champion. Sired by Champion Quarter Running Stallion, Pasamonte Paul (by Suggested TB).
Osprey, 1973 NCHA Derby Res Champion. Sired by AA racehorse Brigand.
Cee Bars Joan, 1969 NCHA Futurity Champion. Sired by AAA racehorse Cee Bars.
Delta Decoy, 1975 NCHA Derby Champion. Sired by AA racehorse Delta Leo.
For the future:
I get your point. Actually, I got it a long time ago.
Oh, I know. I just had to add that again.
Didn’t mean anything by it.
Just a little aside. (please no shooting me!!
~ ) But I personally pissed a bunch of die hard foundation quarter horse people by pointing out that Morgans are a very cowy horse, and that they were a breed way before the quarter horse, and also a major contributor to what became a quarter horse!! (done the research; it even states it in the original legends book I believe) I’m not talking about the over done ‘I think I’m a saddlebred’ morgans in the show ring. I’m talkin about the original stocky with action morgan of days gone by. I own one such morgan mare that I took to a penning event once just for fun. she’d never seen a cow in her life (i was a western pleasure showgirl) til that day. once she figured out what I wanted, she went to work, and put most of the guys and the cowy qh’s to shame!! (salt in the wound I guess.) Just goes to show that not all things are as people would wish.
I think that damn hat says a lot…. She probably bought that filly from a big breeder and thinks she’s got a world beater. Sad, Sad, Sad.
She looks more like a case of unbalanced nutrition then “genetic” deformity in her legs. I suspect she has DOD that caused those leg problems
I do believe she toes in too. WTF? Why do people breed this crap? It’s such a shame. So many douchebags…
Well, it might take some time, but you can give people the INCENTIVE to want to breed better (at least on the show end).
Get together and start your own show circuit. Find some sponsors, as well as people from different areas of the country that are willing to put on shows in their regions.
Write down your mission statement, goals, and the rules that the classes are to be judged by. If you want to stress good confirmation then maybe you want that to be part of every class. And any halter class you could specify that a horse must be functional as well as pretty. Find judges that aren’t so easily bribed and really know what to look for (I’m sure you know some). And offer BIG rewards for winning the class with a nice horse. Make it a famous show that everyone wants to participate in, whether it be for money or notoriety or both.
It would take some time and effort, but it could be done. And making it attractive to people will make them try to shoot for those goals that they seem to be missing now.
“Chris said…
We had an American judge as a guest judge at the Aussie Paint Horse national show last year, and he made some interesting comments. He said that he was surprised that there were no lame horses in the halter classes in Australia as he sees quite a few unsound horses in the USA. It is actually in our rules that leg conformation is important, however legs are not judged in the USA. Its also in our rules that HYPP H/H or N/H can not be registered.”
Can I come show there? Man that would be nice…….
Just out of curiosity…does AQHA offer a rules change proposal period? PFHA has this option every so often. The individual (or group) that is requesting a rule change must submit the proposal with justifications as to why it should be changed, etc. It is then voted upon by the regional delegates, etc. Understanding the political aspect, it is possible for members to vote by proxy if they know their delegate will not vote the way they want.
It seems that so many of you QH folks WANT the necessary changes to benefit the welfare of the horses, etc., I’m just wondering if there isn’t a way to get those changes rolling. It was my understanding (mind you I come from Pasos, so may not have this correct…) that the whole peanut rolling lope was NOT to be encouraged in the show ring anymore, and the judges were suppose to penalize that lope. Is this not true?? If it is true, then maybe it’s possible to get the changes made to improve the halter judging so as not to promote the post legged horses.
Okay, now don’t all yell at me at once…
“Graywolf said…
Just out of curiosity…does AQHA offer a rules change proposal period? PFHA has this option every so often. The individual (or group) that is requesting a rule change must submit the proposal with justifications as to why it should be changed, etc. It is then voted upon by the regional delegates, etc. Understanding the political aspect, it is possible for members to vote by proxy if they know their delegate will not vote the way they want.
It seems that so many of you QH folks WANT the necessary changes to benefit the welfare of the horses, etc., I’m just wondering if there isn’t a way to get those changes rolling. It was my understanding (mind you I come from Pasos, so may not have this correct…) that the whole peanut rolling lope was NOT to be encouraged in the show ring anymore, and the judges were suppose to penalize that lope. Is this not true?? If it is true, then maybe it’s possible to get the changes made to improve the halter judging so as not to promote the post legged horses.
Okay, now don’t all yell at me at once…
“
I have APHA horses myself.
As far as the peanut rolling goes….. there has been little change. I know that many people are having to “speed up” their horse’s lope because what they were doing WAS NOT a lope [they still are not at a true lope in my opinion, but it is slowly getting better]. But, they are supposed to have level toplines too. Yeah, NO ONE is changing there. All of these horses are “loping” with their heads way too low.
Also, another thing that REALLY gets me! HEAD BOBBING! What person in their right mind lets a horse bob as bad as these AQHA/APHA western pleasure horses do? Are they out of their minds? That is NOT a natural gait if they have to bob that much. Seriously! It just looks stupid!
As far as post legged horses go, that is going to take a long time to get that back out of the breed. My current performance gelding [who you can see in my profile pic] is SO post legged in the back that I am surprised he can move as well he does [but he sure does well in performance halter because of them- ack]! Most all of the horses you see at the AQHA/APHA shows now are severely post legged. The only exceptions are the working horses/reiners.
I really think that the judges need to crack down. I hate to pass the buck on this, but even if we bring out the “correct” horses, the judges won’t place us! We can present a horse [halter or performance] that is close to perfect by the rulebook, but they will still overlook us. The problem is that a lot of these judges have been judging the “fads” for so long that they forgot what correct is. I think that the AQHA and APHA need to bring their judges back in for a refresher course, teach them what correct pleasure, conformation, and equitation are, and then make them pass a test on their “new knowledge”. I know this will never happen, but it sure would help! There are a lot of competitors going out there with nice, nice horses that are getting over looked because of poor judging [we won't even get into the politics of AQHA shows.....].
waitwaitwait hold up a minute… is ‘cowy’ in regards to a horse a COMPLIMENT??
O_O *brain splatters on wall*