The good, the not-so-good, and the fuuuuugly
Aug 24 2007
Upon request, I’m going to do a little series showing a really good example (breeding quality), a mediocre example (riding quality) and an oh-my-god-please-sterilize-it example of the same breed. I’ve been meaning to do something on Paints, because this is a variety of horse that has been severely, severely overbred with little thought given to conformation or quality. There is an absolute cornucopia of crap out there with big patchy spots of color.
Let’s start out with the bottom of the barrel. This colt (selling uncut, of course) is so badly conformed that I question his usability for riding much less breeding. Seriously, those front pasterns qualify as a disability in my book. They are super long and weak. It is hard to evaluate the rest of the leg because they are so bad, they throw everything off. His hind end isn’t much better. I don’t mind mild cowhocks on a performance horse, but these aren’t mild. Both hind feet point out like a duck’s. That neck is as bad as bad can be – short, thick, no throatlatch. I know it’s a bad pose and he’s on a hill, but there’s no way to pose him and make him look like even a mediocre horse. This one is just plain bad.
You are going to be right when you say that some of this is bad photography. Some of it is. But no matter, one look confirms that this is not a $3000 stallion prospect. It is a rather sad, underfed little 16 month old yearling, who – the ad brags – has been ridden by a 4 month old baby and did great! (Say it with me now – “WTG Mother of the Year!”) This poor little creature is narrow and has no butt. I think those back legs are posty, too. His head’s not as big as it appears from these pictures, but it’s not a typy little stock horse head, either. This guy is screaming “please take me home, chop my balls off and make me into your 4-H horse.” Unfortunately, for $3000 he is going to sit in that field ’til he rots. C’mon folks, you really need to have a passing acquantance with equine values to get a horse sold. I can pick up a colt just like this at a sale for $150 any day of the week. Unless he poops diamonds, yours is not worth three grand.
Another unspectacular Paint colt. I will say that his owners are much more realistic – they have him priced at $400. OK there you go. For that price, he will find a home and hopefully with some kid who wants to make him into the open show horse of her dreams. With that low set neck, he’ll western pleasure like a champ on the low end of the open shows/4-H level, he’s got pretty good bone, and I suspect he’s going to mature out to be level backed and not downhill. Unfortunately, the ad says he’s a “stallion prospect.” No, he’s not, unless of course you read “stallion prospect” to mean: someday we believe his testicles will drop and he will be fertile. But for this price, geld him and you’d probably have a nice enough little youth horse.
I’m going to give you the real names on these, because, in my never-humble-opinion, they appear to be doing things right. This is Impressive Proposal. He is an APHA Champion, which – short version – means he both halters and rides. The long version for him means he has points in western pleasure, hunter under saddle, trail and – are you ready? working hunter. Yes, he can JUMP too. See, here’s what deserves to be a stallion – a horse who is not only correct conformationally for his breed but can also perform. His owners, Platinum Paint Horses, also get high marks for selling AKC (yes, really!) dogs and having tons of cute candid photos all over their site showing that their horses are allowed to go outside, roll in the mud and be horses, even if they are show horses.
Here’s another APHA stallion that deserves to have his balls. His name is Windell. You know how I like to say breeding isn’t magic? That you don’t get great horses by clicking your heels together three times? This is a great example. He came into being because someone crossed TWO APHA Champions. Yes, both sire and dam could halter and perform with the best. And this is what you get – size, color, APHA honor roll hunter o/f and PtHA world champion dressage. They event this horse against non-stock breeds – he goes up against the warmbloods and fancy TB’s and places well. This is what breeding quality looks like. 
135 comments to “The good, the not-so-good, and the fuuuuugly”
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DRESSAGEFAN1 – You sound like me! LOL. And I get nailed for comments like that, too! But you’re right, a breeding stallion needs to be a top representative of the breed, with minimal or no faults, and so do the mares. I’m picky like that, too. I see lots of stallion owners’ mares that are not up to par. The problem is, most mares are going to be bred at some point in their life regardless of their quality; most poor quality colts are gelded (or should be).
DRESSAGEFAN1, I think FHOTD’s point was that the black and white Overo didn’t fall into the category of fugly, like the others did.
forthefutureofthebreed- thank you for the support! It’s not that I’m saying they are horrible representations of their breed, they just aren’t what I consider breeding quality, especially looking at the mares they are crossed with. I’m a super picky person when it comes to conformation, and if I ever was to breed a horse, I think it would serve me well in producing something that would at least be servicably sound for a long long time (if for some reason it didn’t turn out to be my upper level show horse and got to be my daughters local level show horse and spoiled pasture pet).
I understand her point though, and I do agree they leaps and bounds better than the fuglies!!
DRESSAGEFAN1 – I hear you. It’s very hard to find a stallion who is “perfect”. Mine isn’t perfect, either, but I feel he’s a step in the right direction (for my goals), as far as type, soundness, disposition, conformation, pedigree, etc. It’s awfully hard to find a decent stallion with a Tobiano gene that isn’t fugly and doesn’t look like a big pony.
Poster wrote:
I’d like to see a blog on the apps, SO many of their members are just interested in color……scares me.
***********************
Haven’t been to many App shows lately have you? solid, solid, solid. It’s getting to be an actual problem that the ApHC members are breeding the amount of pattern OUT of the breed and breeding suppressor genes IN. In fact solid App bred mares are worse color producers (bred to a colored stallion) than NON App mares because of the focus on minimal color pattern. It’s really sad.
Now there are color breeders out there who breed for nothing but color (any and every color) but you won’t find many of their horses at shows. ANY shows… 8-D
On the other end of the spectrum, may I present to you:
http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-40333
Can someone please tell me what’s going on with this rear end?
ATLEASTTBSHAVEHEART – I don’t see anything other than a mediocre quality stallion (certainly not worth $5k), who hasn’t even been listed as a breeding stallion with APHA, with no performance, no progeny. Can’t register his foals without him being listed.
AtLeastTBsHaveHeart… said…
On the other end of the spectrum, may I present to you:
http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-40333
Can someone please tell me what’s going on with this rear end?
Part of the problem is he wasn’t set up correctly for the photo. You can see that his rear foot is starting to lift off the ground, which gives him the appearance of being camped under. His fore leg to the camera is positioned incorrectly for a proper photo. You can see that the fore leg opposite the camera is straight underneath, which is where the other leg should have been positioned. It at least would have made viewing his conformation that much easier. Would I keep him as a stallion, not unless he turned out to be a great performer. He sure would be a pretty gelding though!
forthefutureofthebreed said…
I think a 15 hand horse is just right, although as I get older, the shorter the better. LOL. And mine is 16.1. LOL.
I like my 14.2hh, 14hh, and 13.2hh Pasos! I always say “the taller the horse, the farther to fall!”
LOL, Graywolf. I have a 14.2 hand horse, too.
They are kind of easy to get on and off of, aren’t they? 
I agree w/ blissful. It does take more than bloodlines. My boss bread their “well bred” warmblood mare (HUGE thing.) to Stanhope’s Didicoy (not sure the spelling) Spotted warmblood stallion. Didicoy has high marks in show jumping and dressage and Gigi (the mare) has been a fantastic hunt horse for the last 15 years. What we got was Moose-a-sourous. aka “tinker” She’s huge and not very athletic looking like more draft that can gracefully do much of anything. She’s a great example of sweet and well bred and not really much of anything.
i dunno guys – the smaller the horse, the quicker it can drop its shoulder and spin out from under you when it wants you gone *LOL*
lifelike001 said…
i dunno guys – the smaller the horse, the quicker it can drop its shoulder and spin out from under you when it wants you gone *LOL*
You have a point there. LOL.
Hmmm, I looked at the background and where the feet were and I thought Impressive Proposal wasn’t downhill, he just wasn’t photographed straight. I could be wrong. Any evaluation from pictures will always be inferior to seeing the animal in person, of course. I swear, I had THE WORST time finding 2 APHA stallions I liked! I googled APHA Champion and half of those were fugly. Impressive Proposal was the most balanced and athletic pleasure type stallion I found, whereas Windell was the most balanced and athletic jumping/dressage stallion I found. There may indeed be better examples out there somewhere, and I’m always interested to see them, but I really do have to somewhat limit the time I spend looking, especially considering I do have a job and horses to take care of.
AtLeastTBsHaveHeart… said…
On the other end of the spectrum, may I present to you:
http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-40333
Can someone please tell me what’s going on with this rear end?
Forget the rear end I can not get past the front. His shoulder is way to straight and his neck is too short. Also there is no way on Gods green earth that he is worth five grand. Pretty color and balls do not make him breeding material. GELD THE FUGLY….LOL!
greywolf- I do not think there is any way to pose him and make him look like he should keep reproducing….lol.
Also, I just have to say that I thought that Impressive stud was Impressive. I was not impressed with the owners cat breeding practices though. They are docking the tails of any old cat and calling them MANX. WTH is that about? Is it a gimmick to try and make money off of cats that you can get for free any day of the week? Am I alone on this? Someone please fill me in on this if I am wrong.
How funny. Your link was posted on the PHF and when I searched I found that you have my stallion IMpressive PROposal listed as a good example of a quality APHA stallion.
Thank you!
IMpressive Proposal is 16.1 at both the hip and wither so YOU are correct in you assessment of his balance.
If any one would ask any of the well know trainers that have ridden him, they would say that he is very balanced. All the pics are taken by me and I will be the first to admit that my photography skills are not the best but I do enjoy catching those action shots.
Thank you again for including IMpressive PROposal in you list of quality stallions.
Your site is great!!!!!
Darla
I’ll fill you in.
About 25% of Manx (bobtail) kittens, whether registered or not, are born with tails. The tailed kittens are docked as they usually have kinks or extra vertabras in them which can become arthritic as the cat ages. When this happens the tail has to be amputated and it is a surgical and painful procedure. The docking procedure is much less painful in the early stage and is always disclosed to the buyer.
Our Manx (bobtail) kittens are not registered but they all come from either registered or tailless stock. Manx or bobtail cats make great pets and I want to raise quality, socialized, enjoyable pets. All are vaccinated, wormed, free of fleas and mites, never inbred and most importantly LOVED. So to answer your question “No we don’t cut off tails of any ole cat.”
How do you decide which mares to breed and which to leave? I’ve always believed that a mare should be judged on her performance record. If she is in the top 10% of her generation competing and has stayed sound she deserves to have a baby. Interestingly I’ve been laughed at on European breeding forums for those views. Seems the Europeans don’t bother competing their broodmares and don’t believe that performance in a mare passes on to her offspring. (I still can’t understand that. Why is it considered essential in stallions and a negative indicator in a mare???)
the glaring fault on windell (about the only one i can see, hes lovely) is that hes terribly herring gutted. where do his widdle organs live? O_O
i feel like im looking at a massive colic obstruction just waiting to happen (not that theres likely any evidence to suggest a big round belly functions better).
his stifle joint is definitely above his elbow, but if hes being used for a discipline that deliberately requires drilling onto the forehand then no biggie.
just proves that a horse that screams QUALITY can shine through any amount of breed prejudice, even mine
ImProPPH said… About 25% of Manx (bobtail) kittens, whether registered or not, are born with tails. The tailed kittens are docked as they usually have kinks or extra vertabras in them which can become arthritic as the cat ages. When this happens the tail has to be amputated and it is a surgical and painful procedure. The docking procedure is much less painful in the early stage and is always disclosed to the buyer.
Our Manx (bobtail) kittens are not registered but they all come from either registered or tailless stock. Manx or bobtail cats make great pets and I want to raise quality, socialized, enjoyable pets. All are vaccinated, wormed, free of fleas and mites, never inbred and most importantly LOVED. So to answer your question “No we don’t cut off tails of any ole cat.”
I need to ask then why breed these cats and bring more of them into the world? It would seem to me if you know a cat has a 25% chance of being born with these tail problems then you should not breed them. I am not a bleeding heart that thinks all tail docking is wrong (I approve in some dog breeds). I just see absolutely no difference in your MANX cats and any other cat except with no tail.
nuzzlewithamuzzle said…
Forget the rear end I can not get past the front. His shoulder is way to straight and his neck is too short. Also there is no way on Gods green earth that he is worth five grand. Pretty color and balls do not make him breeding material. GELD THE FUGLY….LOL!
greywolf- I do not think there is any way to pose him and make him look like he should keep reproducing….lol.”
Nuzzle:
I disagree with you on the shoulder, simply because he is not standing squarely and with the sun in the wrong position which will throw off his appearance. Yes, his neck is a bit short for my tastes as well. I did say that he would have to be a great performer for me to consider him stallion material. I also said he would make a pretty gelding.
grey wolf- I am just stunned that someone is breeding him and asking 5k for him. As far as being a pretty gelding I am sure he might be. He is just not my flavor, just my opinion. Even with a perfect photo he will never appear to be worth that much money or correct enough to pass on his bad photo hiding imperfections. Again, just my opinion.
Nuzzle
I doubt I would dish out $5k for him either! I did see a Cremello Paso stallion that is “valued” at $250k….yeah right, not on this Planet! My Pasos have upper values too…to me…doesn’t mean someone is going to pay that! So it’s what they perceive as the value, which rarely is the same as reality!
I have owned several Manx cats, and have one now. With or without a tail, they are the class clowns of the cat breeds. Funnier ‘n shit, and quite a unique breed of cat. I don’t breed them, though. But I can see why people do. They’re an oddity in the first place. I also own two Scottish Folds, another cat oddity, and a very special breed. They have their characteristics that aren’t found in other breeds of cats. I think any breed of anything can have it’s “issues”. Breeding is fine as long as people breed RESPONSIBLY.
I’ve been looking for a manx cat for a long time, I’ve always wanted one.
Just thought I’d throw that out there if somebody’s got a manx mama out there who popped out an accidental litter.
lifelike001 said…
i dunno guys – the smaller the horse, the quicker it can drop its shoulder and spin out from under you when it wants you gone *LOL*
forthefutureofthebreed said…
You have a point there. LOL.
No doubt, and I have the cast on right now to prove that
I was just thrown from my daughter’s 13hh POA, and it was that super fast spin that did me in!
wait, i said windell was a herring when i meant impressive proposal.
downhill = stifle to elbow. a deep heartgirth provides a ‘false’ visual reading of uphillness, just like TB razor withers… just look at the trajectory of his body, try to imagine the percentage of his weight that is being supported by his front legs as opposed to his hinds.
but i dont think it matters for that western thing! *L*
heres a skeletal anatomy picture that helps with that ‘hunt the stifle’ thing… when you look from the outside of the horse (a somewhat more common view!) its the LOWER ‘bump’ which is the articulation of the stifle joint between the femur and the fibula/tibia, not the higher bump in the horses ‘crotch’ which is actually the patella. also, the actual elbow JOINT between the radius and humerus is lower than the POINT of the elbow which is the upper extent of the radius.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v29/
NancyBoy/asideskeleton.gif
its hard to tell from a standing photograph the exact point the joint articulates – the ‘lift’ of the elbow that allows reach of the forelimb to express freedom in the shoulder. in short, without performing a thorough autopsy, youve not much more to go on than visual impressions! (and we all have separate eyes that see, occasionally, wildly different things).
to confuse matters, there are horses BUILT downhill who MOVE uphill, just as there are horses who flunk all conformation tests and somehow outperform others. still, if you want a horse to lift his forehand, he needs a light one to have half a chance.
kigermustang said…
lifelike001 said…
i dunno guys – the smaller the horse, the quicker it can drop its shoulder and spin out from under you when it wants you gone *LOL*
forthefutureofthebreed said…
You have a point there. LOL.
No doubt, and I have the cast on right now to prove that
I was just thrown from my daughter’s 13hh POA, and it was that super fast spin that did me in!
Ouch! Well, I guess I’m fortunate in that my Pasos haven’t pulled that stunt on me! Although my 4yr old did a half-hearted buck and spook sideways that unseated me and I found myself standing on the ground next to her instead of in the saddle! ;-D And she is one of my smaller Pasos at 13.2hh. Needless to say, we went back to some groundwork after that (she was being a bit touchy about weeds touching her little legs!) She’s gotten over it now, but she definitely thinks she’s a princess!
I invite you to take a closer look at the conformation of IMpressive PROposal on our website.
platinumpainthorses.com
Notice in some of the show pics that he is wearing a breast harness to keep the saddle from sliding back. You don’t need those on downhill horses. His wither and hip are very level. He does have a very deep heart girth which we are very thankful for. He also passes this along to his offspring. His conformation is great but his movement and mind are even better.
And yes you want them light on the front end for WP as well as HUS, which he is.
ok.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/
v29/NancyBoy/IPhill.jpg
a matter of personal taste, which is not the end of the world.
Yeah I really love how you come on here and shoot off about peoples horses. My paint colt IS STILL GROWING if you knew anything about babys FILLING out when they are older, that would help an yeah. You don’t know nothing about my colts lines and all that. You know nothing on his breeding at all, so you can take everything off of you site about my horse. Thank you every much. What i think of my horses is what i think. If my horse doesn’t sell well then he will be going to the show ring when he is older with me now won’t he.
Here is her exact ad on horsetopia:
Ty is not reg. but could be. Its 3000 OBO with no papers, if you wanted papers we could talk things out. I think he is going to be more of an english horse as he loves to trot around while playing. And it just seems like he is floating. He would really stand out in the show ring, he is still a stud right now but will be gelded soon. He Sire is a Reg. Paint that stands 16HH and is soild built. And his Dam is a Reg. Quarterhorse who stands a stocky 15.3. I am guess he will be aroun 15.2-16HH. If you want to stand out in the ring. Here is you chance. Email me for more info or Pictures. Price: $ 3,000 (OBO)
Link here:
http://horsetopia.horse-for-sale.org/
classifieds/ad220808
Now those are pretty stallions.
I show AQHA but would wouldn’t mind being on the back of either of those guys.