I make warm-bloods
Aug 16 2007
NFQHA is coming…but I found this and simply had to share!
For those of you who were defending the American Warmblood Society when I was pointing out that it encourages clueless morons to breed mixed breed crap, I have a wonderful web site sent in by an alert reader. The first line reads “I make warm-bloods.” What, like making iced tea? Well, clearly with as much or possibly less planning and forethought.
As another alert reader comments, “I make Warmbloods too !!! I “make them” trot and canter, I “make them” leave their stalls and go out in the field, and sometimes I “make” mine go over jumps.” Good for you, alert reader – that is probably far more than Miss Buckskin Palomino Polka Dotted Sporthorses Dot Com will ever do with ones she “makes.” The fact that there is not a single riding picture on her web site is a pretty good clue.
Miss BPPDSDC goes on to brag “All of my horses have pedigrees and most a double registered!” Sweetheart, Ted Bundy and Ed Gein have pedigrees. Just go to Geneology.com and I’m sure you can look them up. All that means is that the ancestors are not unknowns. While I am not sure what “most a double registered” means, I am willing to bet we are talking about Blue Eyed American Warmbloods here!
She then goes on to brag of her Suffolk Punch stallion “He comes in one color Chesnut, not chestnut.” While I have learned that the Suffolk Punch folks HAVE officially adopted a misspelling of a common horse color in order to look more Special, I am not sure about the thought that a horse comes in one color. As opposed to, what? Sending him back to God or Epona or his dam and stating you would like to exchange for the same horse in a nice mahogany bay?
Next… “I register all [stallion's] foals with the American Warmblood Society so they are all Sporthorses.” BING BING BING…what do I TELL you people about what these registries encourage? This woman thinks that the AWS giving her a set of papers makes her horses sport horses. Never mind any relationship to actually PERFORMING a damn SPORT. The logic train just doesn’t go that far down the tracks with these folks, and the AWS encourages it by registering their crap.
“I created this website to sell the offspring. Some are buckskins and some are Palominos, some are boys and some are girls.” No shit! You mean, you don’t have any hermaphrodites for sale? Well damn I guess I will have to go elsewhere. I am so disappointed. I really wanted a chesnut half Suffolk Punch hermaphrodite. I am sure some other “warm-blood” breeder will have one though! Maybe I can buy it not even conceived yet, because their animal communicator says it will be born that way, in 2010, on a sunny day, in western Pennsylvania.
“This is an orphan foal at one week old he is [stallion's] baby and a buckskin Quarter mare that passed 24hrs after giving birth. She gave her life so that this baby could survive even when she lay in pain she moved her leg back so he could nurse.. “
OMG you incredible retard. You bred a poor little QH mare to your GIGANTOR Suffolk Punch stud and then you WONDER why she DIED FOALING? Did you even put her down or did you let her suffer so the foal could nurse? And just to create the thing at left which looks like a BLM mustang or a reject from someone’s bucking string.
Logical thought for the day: MOST people when “making” draft crosses have draft MARES. Since the baby has to come out of the MARE, it makes sense that the MARE is the larger of the two parents and able to safely birth the large BABY. Same with pony-horse crosses. Is this complicated or something?
(Edited to note: Apparently newer studies show that the mare is supposed to self-regulate foal size no matter what you breed her to. However, many breeders seem to have stories of foals too large for the mare resulting in complications, and I know I’ve been told by vets that it’s a bad idea. It is entirely possible both sides are right in that the real problem is the conformation of the mare in question more so than her height. Plenty of discussion on the research, opinions, etc. in the comments section and I’m sure more will come.)
This is a breeding stock Paint filly that she has for sale for $7500. I can buy one just like this any day of the week at the killer auction for $150. Hey, it is not such a bad little filly (though it could use some groceries) but there’s absolutely nothing here that makes it worth $7500. Has either parent ever accomplished anything? You can’t tell by her web site, and I couldn’t find two words about them on the net. I’m guessing their main accomplishments are being palomino and buckskin.
*sigh*
I know this lady lives in California, land of the rich, foolish and easily parted with their money, but this is bad even for California. Stop breeding the Stud That Ate New York to normal sized mares, you moron! Do you even HAVE a vet?
Finally, from one of her sale ads… “He is a yearling and has already cleared a 6ft fence at 8 mos.”
I do not even want to know that story.
135 comments to “I make warm-bloods”
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Is it me or is that buckskins pasturn over extended??–Still learning this stuff..
gosh i hate idiots like that..breeding their small mares to huge studs..not even thinking about if she can handle it or not..
i bet that lady didn’t even care..just like the one i knew once..just breed them..as long as the baby survives..who gives a damn about the momma?? i have to say..that stuffy lookin’ big headed colt doesn’t look worth it..
somebody go over there and suffocate that lady with horse crap…
The world is full of idiots. Total morons, who will put down those who actually know what they’re doing. People like that make me sick. Fugly, you were right on about the AWS, and this is proof of your opinion about them.
Oh, this is the reason everyone laughs at the AWS!!! Seriously! *sigh*
I just want to add, that is a “normal sized” mare has a problem carrying a draft foal, they would probably have a problem carrying ANY foal. The foal won’t get too big while in utero, unless there’s a problem to begin with. The problems are usually the fact that after being born, the foal grows larger than the mare too quickly, and it’s hard to nurse – or, grows to a size where it can not get adequate milk from its dam. The problem itself, isn’t having to carry and deliver the foal. (having seen and worked with a lot of draft ponies, I can attest to the fact that there are a LOT of 48 inch mares being bred to draft stallions – my pony is the outcome of that!).
Although, if you’re going to pasture breed or do live cover, then you have to worry about his man parts being too large for her womanly parts. I have seen a pony die from internal bleeding, when the owners thought it would be okay to have their percheron stallion pasture breed their shetland pony. *sigh* Yes, they DO belong on this website.
People who pasture breed and do live cover generally DO have draft mares. People who do AI will just use the best mare and stallion combination (well, I would hope!), regardless of who’s the draft, and who’s not.
ANYHOW, I agree with everything you said in your blog (like usual!), but just wanted to point out that the mare probably didn’t die from the fact that the foal was half draft. There would of had to have been underlying issues (that either let the foal get too large, or that caused whatever complications that made her lose her life). It’s a common misconception (mare size vs. stallion size), but bothers me just the same!
Stupidity at best, cruelty at worst – glad I am nowhere near California, would have to slap that breeder! I also agree that the colt does not look like he was worth the loss of the mare. Why oh why oh why did that moron breeder allow this to happen??????
On a more positive note – I love this blog – lots of good old fashioned horsesense here!
Actually, studies have shown that foal size is determined by the mare – NOT the stallion.
References: (link is truncated, put it back together in your address bar)
http://www.equine-reproduction.com/board/
messages/44/2340.html
Other than this, I agree with everything else said
“The foal won’t get too big while in utero, unless there’s a problem to begin with.”
edit – the foal USUALLY won’t get too big. It can, however, and sometimes does. I hate the study that showed that most often mares won’t grow a foal too big for them to carry, because that study now justifies people breeding their Welsh Mountain Pony mare to a Hanoverian stallion. It just isn’t worth the risk, people!!
Yeah, my understanding is the jury’s still out on that and I will stick with my traditional knowledge on this, which is that you always breed a cross so that the mare is the bigger one, and that way there is no risk of a size discrepancy problem with the foal.
Mares that are bred to the same size or SMALLER studs have an about equal percentage of foals that are “too large”
There hasn’t been any correlation proving otherwise.
That being said there isn’t usually a good reason to DO so. How often is a draft horse going to compliment a tiny 14hh QH anyway? LOL just about never!
No way that “orphan foal” is a week old. I know what week old foals look like (even fugly ones) and that ain’t it.
Are we sure this isn’t some dumb 12 year old’s SIM game site?
Egads, what an imbecile. Irresponsible BYB doesn’t even begin to cover it. There are no words I can think of right now to convey my total and utter contempt for this “breeder”. I think my head is going to explode.
I had heard that the dam is responsible for the size of the foal. Not sure if this is the case or not because I have read nothing definitive.
That first picture just totally exemplifies ugly.
ah, I think I was right… checked the original website and I believe that caption is regarding the bay foal to the left, not the buckskin thing underneath…
STOP STOP STOP!!! Do not pass GO! Do not collect $200! Do Google up American Warmblood Society and scroll down to the second(/) page of sites until you find “Reinhardt-American Warmblood” and take a gander. He’s grulla. He’s got ‘cobwebbing’ (huh?) Not brushed lately perhaps? Then scroll down Reinhardt’s page and peek at his left front…..oh deary me oh my!
Actually, what many of you (and many others) think of as foal size problems are usually mare conformation problems.
Now, while I stand behind science and not jerry-bo-bob hearsay (see link I posted earlier), I have never found a valid reason for breeding a small mare to a significantly larger stallion. There’s just no need for it. I don’t support it in this case, and I’ve never run across a situation that warranted it, nor heard of one.
But I cannot stand behind faulty logic and agree that it endangers the mare due to the possibility of a foal that is too large, when there is absolutely no evidence for this.
Mares have issues – and short of necropsies and in depth studies, we won’t always know exactly why in every case. But we do have people who HAVE studied such things to learn from. And while it’s easy and fun to lay blame on what seems obvious, that is just as lazy and irresponsible as what we are making fun of others for doing.
farmer’s wife:
“Cobwebbing” refers to a pattern of differentiated color on a dun horse’s head.
No, I don’t get it either. I see no commonality between a dun horse’s head and those damn things that haunt my ceiling.
“Mares that are bred to the same size or SMALLER studs have an about equal percentage of foals that are ‘too large’
There hasn’t been any correlation proving otherwise.”
I did a report on this in college, and that’s true! It’s not the size of the stallion that’s the issue, it’s the how the mare carries the foal. She could be bred to a pony or a Percheron – the chances of the foal being too big are about the same, for each. There have to be underlying issues for that to happen.
Of course, then you run into problems AFTER birth – like milk supply. But the problems don’t lie in the size of the stallion.
“That being said there isn’t usually a good reason to DO so. How often is a draft horse going to compliment a tiny 14hh QH anyway? LOL just about never!”
I’ve seen it mostly in draft ponies. Granted, they’ll use a larger mare and a smaller stallion, but if they have a great mare, and know of a larger stallion, they’ll do that, too. I worked with a little 11 hand pony who was a great broodmare, and the bigger stallions really complimented her! Breed her with larger ponies, or small horses, and her foals were too light. But breed her with something a bit bigger, and she produced great show draft ponies.
Most of the time, I don’t see much need for there to be such a huge size difference, but hey – I’m not the one doing the breeding!
Her draft stallion is actually a good looking guy. He looks like he moves with athleticism and balance, and he’s well put together for his breed from what I can see (no standing shot). I think bred to good quality, appropriate mares he would sire some nice foals. He should probably be bred to Thoroughbreds or finer-boned warmbloods though…I’m not going to pick on mares I can’t see, but from the foals I would guess that her QH and Arab mares are *not* going to produce anything that can *function* as a sport horse. Their necks are short and tied on like draft necks…they are by far not the worst babies I’ve seen on here, just kind of plain. She has one baby that I think is kind of cute – the others just seem better suited to some other life than a sporthorse.
I think the palomino is from her other stud, who has a nice head, but is very downhill and has a long weakish back. Not necessarily a crime, but again, not right for any of the sport horse disciplines.
Strange website…you’d think that it would be important to explain which babies belong to whom, and what’s actually for sale. And maybe to put a conformation shot or two for the stallions…
What is the website for the original post? I am dieing to see it all!!!
I’m now reading things online and it still seems like opinion is split over whether the large stallion-small mare cross produces a baby too large to foal out safely. Some vets do think it’s a problem, although that may be outdated wisdom – I’m not a vet but I know vets have told me this in the past. Feel free to post links on the topic.
While surfing, I found this question for a vet. My head just hurts…
“Our 11-year-old broodmare, seemingly healthy, just up and died. The autopsy tests are not back yet….but the vet told me to look up Pregnancy Toxemia. I can’t find any information on this topic for equines. This mare is by an Impressive stud (Impressive is her great grandsire on the topside); we had her tested for HYPP & she came back HYPP Type = N/H (Hyperkalemic – Heterosygous (one normal & one HYPP gene) from the University of California, Davis Veterinary Genetics Lab. We were told she had a 50/50 chance of passing this on to her foals, but that she would not experience the problems of HYPP herself or her foals as long as we didn’t breed to an Impressive bred stallion. The veterinarian at the lab here in NC is having her tested again for the HYPP gene just to double check. This is/was a seemingly perfectly healthy young mare who just laid down & died for no apparent reason. Please help me out in my search of “pregnancy toxemia” in mares.”
Ignorance on top of ignorance…
RUNITHBOB the website is here:
http://www.palominosbuckskinssporthorses.com/
Have fun!
re:
http://cactusridgeranch.net/dually.html
the dun AWS horse… I think it’s very funny that they’re getting him rescored, since his foal scores weren’t accurate. I put a case of Newcastle on it that he actually scores worse now. hehe.
“I think it’s very funny that they’re getting him rescored, since his foal scores weren’t accurate.”
Is that like taking your driver’s test again and again until you finally pass?
Good GOD! the-farmers-wife is right! It says they are going to get him re-evaluated with the WBS, because they think he is better than the grade rating they gave him, when he was a yearling. I have to laugh! The rating maybe even worse than grade.They put a saddle on him at 6 months old, and will be doing “classical” training when his knees close? “a wonderful example of what a horse should be”. EEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!
Sadly the entire horse industry sometimes feels like it is equipped with this mentality…”I bred it so therefore you must pay me _________(fill in the blank with whatever amount you deem acceptable to make it okay to breed crap to crap)” I see it day after day; oooh look a black n white paint so that must mean he is world class material…No that must mean you fell face first on a band wagon that had precious little room for you and your need to over-populate the earth with useless but (OH BOY!) black and white horses!!
So when you keep those fugly useless mares bred and foaling year after year, it must look like a freaking party at the slaughter yards when all those unwanted but colorful horses arrive…but hey, how can it be YOUR fault when there are all these terrific registries around that give you somewhere to register that useless nag (and hey…why not the American Useless Nag Registry?)
Argh…there needs to be a law against stupid people…
Is that like taking your driver’s test again and again until you finally pass?
No, more like taking it again and again and doing WORSE each time, LOL
what i dont get is, if you had a rare breed stallion, why you would want to contribute to the degeneration an destruction of that breed by crossing him out to any old shit??
apart from the usual greed, ignorance, selfishness, stupidity…
…missing a ‘d’ in there…. add it mentally!
Is that like taking your driver’s test again and again until you finally pass?
No, because in a driver’s test you have a chance of genuinely improving. Nothing you can do to fix bad conformation.
But hey, I won’t rag on those people very much. He’s gelded. If they are getting enjoyment out of him, and he seems to be a nice guy…well…I’m going to let them enjoy him.
Dear AWS,
This http://www.horse-gate.com/grannus/index_story_en.html is a Warmblood.
Sincerely,
Someone who cares about Warmblood reputation
“This is an orphan foal at one week old he is [stallion's] baby and a buckskin Quarter mare that passed 24hrs after giving birth. She gave her life so that this baby could survive even when she lay in pain she moved her leg back so he could nurse.. ”
THIS MADE MY BLOOD BOIL!!!!!!!!!!
Looks to me that the “one week orphan foal, the buckskin” is a yearling in the pix on our dearly beloved FHOTD’s site, and the actual “week old” pix of him is to the left of the yearling pix on the cactusridge home site, but he’s still nothing to brag about IMHO.
cuttinggirl, glad you agree with me on poor lil Reinhardt’s leggies.
soli, thanks for letting me know what cobwebbing is. Hallowe’en’s the holiday I never decorate for as we have plenty of natural cobwebs and spiders anyhow (in the house, not my spotless barn).
I read this blog faithfully every day, but haven’t posted all that many comments because I usually find myself struck dumb and completely overwhelmed by the ignorance and stupidity being showcased. I guess my equine background is a lot more sheltered than I ever knew.
The Suffolk Punch is a lovely draft breed. They have many fine qualities. But, if I was going to “make warmbloods” and market them as Sport Horses, Suffolk Punch would be last on my list of potential draft parent.
And, even if it is biologically feasible to have the stallion as the draft parent, why would you? It just makes so much more sense to do the reverse.
Then, looking at the pictures of this woman’s horses, I have to ask why, when it appears she can’t afford to properly feed the ones she’s already got, is she breeding more?
Every day when I read this blog I find myself saying the same thing: “What the hell is the matter with people?”
I had a friend who bred her appendix QH mare (who was 17 hands) to an Arabian stallion (who was… 13 hands… you know, the way Arabians looked before people stretched them out into sausages and made their heads look like they were beat in with a pointy rock).
Anyway, apparently, at the breeding, they had to DIG A DITCH for the mare to stand in so the poor stallion could mount her. I guess the whole ordeal was a riot.
When the mare was checked for pregnancy, it was discovered she had twins. They took the chance of them both being born, even had a nurse mare lined up. One of the foals died within minutes of birth.
The resulting foal was a cutie… and way too smart for her own good. Learned to unlatch her stall door, then she’d let her dam out, and then run all over the barn getting all the other horses worked up.
Not quite “on-topic” – but just had to share this….
Someone stop them! Eeewwwww! *pinches nostrils*
http://horsetopia.horse-for-sale.org/classifieds/ad222881
I wonder what the real Suffolk breeders have to say about this. I rather like them, but for what they are!
I also have a 4 year old palomino paint mare for sale. Not broke, compared to that filly’s price, I should ask $10k for her.
Grannus = WOW
RE: the Grulla Sporthorse at http://cactusridgeranch.net/dually.html, this horse is basically a 3/4 Percheron – sire is a Percheron, dam is TB/Percheron cross. When they say “Reinhardt – A unique color, a special breed and a wonderful example of what a horse should be” I am wondering exactly WHAT that special breed is that they are talking about? I just can’t imagine why these people believe that his colour and the fact that he is well-behaved make him all that special a horse? There is no evidence here that points to why they think he is going to be so great in the show ring, nor do they address WHICH discipline they expect him to excel in. I’m sure he’s a sweet guy and they love him, but why are people breeding things that they have no clue how to market, besides the fact that he’s going to be 17 hands, isn’t agressive and has a unique colour (if you like that sort of thing)?
OMG, she has horses for sale at warmbloods-for-sale.com …
“I breed all my horse for warmblood eventing, so they are athletic and good minded. I imprint so they all have good ground manners and are safe around kids.”
She’s making not just warm-bloods, but eventing warm-bloods!
I was inspired to troll Dreamhorse for something that irks me … I’m not a conformation wiz so I looked for something else I was adequately trained to critique.
http://freelief.blogspot.com/2007/08/selling-things-online-use-good-photos.html
luvmyfuglyhorse said…
http://horsetopia.horse-for-sale.org/classifieds
/ad222881
Oh my gosh! Under “Disciplines” it says “Breeding” – that’s it! He’s 3 years old, $350 stud fee – what’s the point of breeding to this horse???
Has anyone seen/used this site?
http://nagornot.com/?i=14
xpButtercup -
Thank you! I could never understand why someone would bother to fork over the extra $$ to post a photo with an ad – when the photo is:
1) more a photo of a person than a horse
2) shows a tiny little dot out in the distance, that if you squint, you can barely discern that it is, in fact, an equine of some sort
3) shows only part of the horse, sometimes not a very helpful part
4) really is “worth a thousand words” by being such a horrid picture, that even if the description is intriguing, the picture says WHOA -don’t bother calling!
Gah!
http://nagornot.com/?i=93
fuglyhorseoftheday said…
Gah!
http://nagornot.com/?i=93
Poor thing, it looks like one of those Chincoteague (sp) ponies….
rbohemian said…
Oh my gosh! Under “Disciplines” it says “Breeding” – that’s it! He’s 3 years old, $350 stud fee – what’s the point of breeding to this horse???
My point exactly! His name should be Unforgetably (sic) UGLY.
The epitome of the irresponsible breeder – illiterate as well!
This is a link from the Nag or Not site –
http://www.howrse.com/
Now THIS is how to play the breeding game if you’re clueless – not with real, live animals!
on Suffolks
the largest herd of them for many years lived S of us here in TN….that nucleus is now scatted over the whole nation but there were some massive well natured actual working machines in that group….the single color is 100′s of years old and I have kicked my self for 15 years not to have purchased out of that herd when they were sold out
Here’s the fugly of the day from our trader friends at Ag Direct.
http://buyhorses.com/scripts/hrsdetl.exe?1187123470
Is this horse fugly or what?
Because he’s gelded, I am happy to say that I think Dually ( http://cactusridgeranch.net/dually.html ) is adorable, in a dum-dee-dum, sweet, meander down the trail sort of way. Truthfully, if he actually is good on trails and going well, he looks like exactly the horse I’d love to get for my husband to join me on easy little jaunts. I think his value is pretty inflated by his optomistic seller, but I do think he’s cute. Thank goodness he’s gelded; since he is, his owners can advertise him with any hyperbole they want, doesn’t bother me a bit.
“He is a yearling and has already cleared a 6ft fence at 8 mos.”
And it was probably barbed wire…
And a child of some sort riding him…..
… and the dipstick of the day goes to…
http://horsetopia.horse-for-sale.org/classifieds/ad229187
Stupid is as stupid does. I actually have dealt with this person (though I’ve never met her in person, bought some used tack from her or something like that) , she goes through horses like I go through Hersey’s Kisses! (a lot)
In this case, after purchase, she learned that the Dam and the Sire to her colt are half-siblings…. duh!
But, anyway, she’s capable of learning. She’s selling it with a gelding contract…(hopefully she’ll stick to that threat!)
When, oh, when will people learn.
I am new here, but I LOVE your Blog! Not new to the horse world though, or all it’s insanely stupid people. Why is it the horse crowd seems to gather MORE than it’s fair share?
I have a small pony mare-10.2 hands, and when I was looking for something to breed her to for a little more size, I got the same thing. Breed her to whatever you want and the foal will only get so big while inside. (?) I thought (much like the rest of you) What happens when it is time for her to foal though?
I love my mare. I bought her at 4y/o and she’s 15 now, happily muching away in the back yard with her mini gelding friend.
The foal was to be something I could raise and my daughter could ‘grow into’. She trained this one by herself with MUCH guidance and oversight on my part of course, and wearing a helmet whenever she rode.
The breeding did not take for whatever reason. I was not upset over that. When I did rebreed her, I again went with just a slightly taller stud (11 h) and got two wonderful fillies. Both were very nice, but not slated to get much taller than 10.3 h.
I no longer breed the mare since I do not want to produce a bunch of itty, bitty ponies that will be outgrown in a short time and end up in an insufferable pony ring, dredging around in circles all day with some spoiled brat plopped on their back, kicking and screaming the whole 2 minutes of hell!
Size does matter and common sense is not all that common. I would hope for these mares, that someone would shoot the owner, geld her stallion and give the mares have a break.
Talk about Fugly Horses… Check out this ad on DreamHorse. IMO, this mare should be put down immediately!!! You just KNOW someone is going to breed her. Hey! It can be a new breed of 6 footed minis! (Yes, I SAID SIX FEET! This poor mare has extra hooves on BOTH front legs growing out of her pasterns… ICK!)
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1047043
If her horses are so well behaved, why is it she can’t seem to get a halter on ANY of them to take a decent picture??
Holy shit, Chromecowgirl!
good home only, no freak shows! – then why the hell are they advertising on the internet! For Pete’s sake! Offer her quietly to a loving home if you don’t want to keep her.
If she’s not in pain and her quality of life good, she should go with some kind of contract – NO BREEDING – or SPAY!
She’s only 4 years old and probably not destined to a long life. Those kind of oddities don’t usually last long.
Hey at least they didn’t post a picture… yet
How on earth can a horse that is 75% Percheron pass for a warmblood? And where did the dun come from? Don’t tell me there’s dun in Thoroughbreds now!
luvmyfuglyhorse– If I had the money, I would buy her just so she wouldnt get bred! She would live out however long her life may be, as an adored member of our family like the rest of my horses. But, I sure as hell am not paying $800 for a genetic mutant that should just be donated to a rescue or someone who WILL NOT BREED her under ANY circumstances in the first place, or just be put down alltogether. Ugh… On a sort of twisted note, I did e-mail the people for pictures.
I know, horrible of me, but this I GOTTA see… it makes my stomach turn just thinking about it though.
What do you think of this one?
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1418345435060910712FXBmCp
Look on their website under Contact Us.
:The unusual weather of 2007
with our working cow dog
Gunner!:
Now correct me if I am wrong but that sure looks like a bully type breed, maybe a shorter version of an American Bulldog. Since when have they been known to be cattle herders? And you mean that these ignorant folks raise cattle too?? Lord help us.
Believe it or not, I love Daully.
If I had one less horse, and he was $2k-$3k cheaper, I’d honestly consider buying him.
I’m oddly attracted to fugly draft crosses and drafts. Huh.
Go ahead, shoot me or whatever. I’m one of the irresponsible that will breed a large pony to a small warmblood. Why?? You may ask? Well because the pony is stunning (proven by show records) and the stud compliments her perfectly. I want a large pony/small horse.
Personally (obviously) I see no problems, and neither did either of the vets we had out. She’s a young mare, super healthy, great condition. I had a friend who bred a 23 y/o 14hh arab mare to an 18.2hh belgian stud and had no problems at all. The foal is now 5 years, about 15.1hh.
So, I don’t think there’s any way that everyone is going to see eye to eye on this
More on Suffolk horses.
If I was into pulling-horse contests, skidding logs out of woods, or plowing a field I’d be getting me a team of suffolk punch horses. They are wonderful horses and were bred for that. Take a look at their conformation: Short coupled with powerful short legs and rear ends designed for that granny gear. They look like they should be born wearing a collar. Suffolks were NOT bred to be fancy dressage horses or to jump or be used to make “warmbloods”. They were not bred to carry a knight or to pull freight into cities either. They are the bulldozer of the horse world, and they are darn good at doing just that. And you definately do not want to be riding one when you are passing a kidney stone if you catch my drift. Crossing a Suffolk with ANY saddle horse breed is asking for the Fugly horse of the month award. Crap like this makes the breed look bad.
And while we are ragging on ‘Warmblood Registries’ I contacted AWR about having a TB mare inspected and thinking, ‘Great, I can get my Perchy filly done at the same time. I received the following response from them-
“We do not accept draft or draft crosses into our program” Can somone PULLEEEEEZ explain to me what the hell a Draft/TB cross is then?
Wouldn’t it be considered a Warmblood, since it has the cold draft and hot TB blood? When I add cold water to the hot water in the shower, I get warm water…
Isn’t it pretty much the same?
That was a few years ago. I still haven’t responded. I couldn’t think of a nice way to say WTF?
not to mention, her palomino paint stud appears to have no white except for his mane and tail… (I googled a phrase from the ad and found the site right away)
lynndeepoo: I agree. He is a handsome Suffolk Punch, with nice movement. But he is not bred to be a sport horse. Nor will breeding him to quarterhorses and arabs help: his babies have short necks that are tied on wrong for most sporthorse activities. They have powerful shoulders, but their movement looks restricted.
There is a really informative article in this month’s Dressage Today about Friesians and dressage, and types of conformation. A lot of it applies here as well.
I have *no* problem with that draft stud, but I don’t think his babies would make high end prospects for dressage or eventing.
…not that high end makes a difference either…but someone trying to advance through the levels will find that a horse with that conformation will only take them so far. Not fair to horse or rider to make that kind of demand.
cutnjump, the AWR differs from the AWS in the way that it has standards! They don’t want to allow draft crosses in (although I can name at least 5 branded AWR horses who are draft crosses – and I know, because I know their sires and dams!). The AWR is trying to do something good, and make a REAL sport horse registry for good warmbloods.
I don’t hold AWR in as high regards as I do other warmblood registries, but it’s not the joke that the AWS is.
And yes, a draft cross has “warm” blood – but so do most pure breeds out there.
and yet more suffolk stuff…
http://www.suffolkpunch.com/horses/stalphot.html
the stallions all 25 listed together along with physical measurements and working category….some other breeds could get a clue in this regard
You’re right…pretty bad even for Cali. I bought my swedish warmblood (gelding!) already dead broke for less than her palomino filly.
“Now correct me if I am wrong but that sure looks like a bully type breed, maybe a shorter version of an American Bulldog. Since when have they been known to be cattle herders?”
My Staffy “herds” the cats around. Does that count, LOL?
Just a little FYI here, Mariposa MAY BE IN CALIFORNIA… but it is a REDNECK HICK TOWN, in the middle of the NASTY, HUMID, SMOGGY San Joaquin Valley (NEAR the California gold country and Yosemite)
Its like saying, I live in Compton California in the foothills of Beverly Hills.
Hi Blissful-
I agree AWR has standards and they are far and away doing a better job than AWS. I know I had my pony stallion inspected by AWS and that was money down the toilet!
I also went to an AWR inspection with a few friends and the judges were picking up things that the three of us missed. (Like shoe sizes in loose dirt.)
AWS said my pony has no withers (which he almost doesn’t) and I would find a difficult time trying to find a saddle or harness to fit him. Okaaay. So remind me why there are different trees with different widths.
We do have a harness we use on him for ground driving and driving and the only fit issue we have is padding it up enough because the girth is a little too long. It could use one more hole on each side. (Either that or he will just have to pack on a few more lbs. which is not a problem at our place, but would not be good for his health.)
I also like that the AWR wants to see the stallions under saddle or in harness and they also must jump.
AWS you show up, walk and trot around the triangle and call it a day. Whoopee!
Nobody that I know of can run fast enough to get the trot out of a decent sized horse, that would show the level of movement that either liberty or riding would show. Both of which AWR requires of it’s stallions.
I just thought the No draft or draft cross statement was a bit daft. No pun intended!
I agree with whomever it was earlier that said if her stallion was such a great part of such a rare breed- why F that up by crossing him with crap and producing even more crap? I bet the Suffolk people are *proud*.
good site for conformation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_conformation#Conformation_of_the_head_and_neck
I’ve heard that before, that the mare “controls” the size of the foal.
But! What fits in the mare’s uterus, MAY NOT fit thru her pelvis!
I’ve been reading this blog for a while, and LOVE IT!
Zim
Has anyone else noticed the teeny little picture in the middle of the homepage, where the Suffolk stallion seems to be CHARGING at whoever is holding the camera?
AWR is NOT THE SAME as AWS!!! It’s really unfortunate that the names are so similar.
Oh, and I do know someone who can run fast enough to show off a full-sized warmblood to his best advantage in hand. People pay her lots of money to do this.
One last note, after you have held your mare’s head while she had seizures and then mercifully passed on after foaling a colt who was too big for her, you will throw science out the window and BREED DOWN. The study can only tell us the most likely outcome but the individual stallion and mare may very well create something too big for that mare to handle.
By the way, the mare was an experienced broodmare and there was nothing wrong with her conformation. The stallion was only slightly larger than she was. It was just an unfortunate, bad nick.
It is true that the Suffolk Punch is perhaps the best breed of horse for pulling and logging operations. Their lower knees make them have less impact on the forest environment.
I have friends that raise them and their young daughter has competed in competitive plowing, since she was 12 years old, she also does pulls, wagon obstacle course and is noted throughout our area as the best young teamster around. She even enters hitch contests but the judges don’t like the idea that she shows working horses instead of high stepping hitch horses. She can easily drive up to a six horse hitch, she is now about 21 years old.
Yes the Suffolk is a rare and fantastic breed of horse but it wasn’t meant to be crossed with a light horse.
I had a trainer who would constantly bellow during our lessons, “Stop staring at his head, he’s not going to change colors!” Apparently, this woman would disagree.
http://www.palominosbuckskinssporthorses.com/sitebuilder/images/100_0508-600×450.jpg
The half arab baby is KINDA cute, mind you in his face, but i like a bald face.
http://cactusridgeranch.net/dually.html
Reinhardt… if that horse stays sound under any amount of riding, I’ll eat my old poopy boot. Look at those front legs! Both hooves point to the right! That left leg looks dislocated; the inner line of the cannon bone is in line with the outer line of the upper leg! His hind pasterns are already heading to parallel with the ground even though his hooves are practically vertical (not to mention in a horrible need of a trim). He’s built downhill and his head looks like it belongs on a bucking bull. His hindquarters have no definition at all. His color isn’t even a good example of the grulla color. Someone please explain to me how a temperament alone can justify a $3900 price tag? I’d be surprised if that horse was still sound, a year after he was gelded (THANK GOD).
I should have known on that TWH filly from the AgDirect Site. She is by Chapagne Watchout and a out of gas on the side of the road mare (aka nothing background wise). Another case of breeding for color. ***ACK*** That is just grossly insane. It is past hideous.
If I were his owner’s I would be highly picky about what I breed him to. Anything for money though. At least alot of the big name ASB breeders ask for a copy of your mares’ papers and confo pics. Well, the ones we have dealt with did.
rbohemian said…
Oh my gosh! Under “Disciplines” it says “Breeding” – that’s it! He’s 3 years old, $350 stud fee – what’s the point of breeding to this horse???
I know! I know! They’re looking to create MORE hotdogs! How punny of me, huh? You know, stretched horses, or horses for meat.
>>out of gas on the side of the road mare (aka nothing background wise)< <
LOL, I learn the funniest expressions from this blog. I have a friend who referred a few times to horses by Truck out of Town and for a long time, I thought that was some bloodline I had somehow missed learning about.
In defense of this breeder, she did say right on her website that she breeds for “quality and temperment.” She didn’t say GREAT or AWESOME or even GOOD quality. Just quality. You can interject your own adjective as to the level of quality. Isn’t it subjective anyway? If you gander across the wild web you’ll see that beauty (and apparently quality) is in the eye of the beholder, lol. And quality for WHAT? Auction fodder? Perfect! French lunch? Ideal. Sound, healthy riding animal? not so much.
The “orphan” does indeed have severely dropped pasterns in the front and will never hold up to a rigorous job. Let’s not even travel down the path of seriously homely…
And keeping a stallion in the backyard between the house and the garage AND the swingset in the background makes for very classy pictures, too, lol. Top notch facility there.
Concerning:
http://cactusridgeranch.net/dually.html
“Dually”
The photo of the woman spread eagle on the rump of that horse is one of the funniest I’ve seen in a long time. It needs to be photoshopped-I suggest no pants and huge butt crack! Would complement “Dually” quite nicely me-thinks.
And what kinda of name is “Dually” for a “Warmblood”? I tought they were supposed to have classy names.
Two things:
It drives me BATTY that people think that a warmblood = cold blood (draft) x hot blood (TB or Arab). Arrrggghhh!!! That is such BS! This just makes a draft cross, not a warmblood!
Also, I breed using a lot of embryo transfers. We have to be very careful with the recipient mares to make sure that the foals aren’t to big for the surrogate moms to deliver. My rule of thumb is that the mare must be as tall as the donor mare with the same body type, OR she can be slightly shorter if she has a long barrel. My experience is that if the recip is a little too small for the donor, that the foals come out REALLY folded up (butterfly legs, etc) and they take a little longer to unfold and then they grow like crazy – faster than if the recip was a larger size. That being said, I don’t think the stallion has much to do with it!
Is NFQHA coming soon?
Haha, sorry.
I know it’s only something like 7 PM over there on the west coast, but here, it’s just about 11.
I’ll do NFQHA tomorrow, it’s half written but I just got in from riding, picking up a couple of wheelbarrows of poop, and honestly I’m not going to do anything else tonight that requires getting off the couch OR thinking.
hackney_wonder:
I agree the pictured TWH is abysmal. But the comment about a “nothing” mare is irrelevent when you’re talking about TWH’s.
The thing about TWH’s is, you cannot judge a good horse by the show success due to the horrible judging standards in so-called performance walkers (i.e. the stacked feet, soring, unnatural gait, etc). Many – indeed the majority of the WGC’s I have seen – in person – have absolutely horrendous legs and hooves, and virtually ALL of them are built downhill (they LOOK correct when they are parked out, with five inch stacks added to their front hooves – put their feet under them where they belong and take the stacks off – and you have a very poorly conformed horse!)
While I like this blog, I am seeing a lot of show-blindness and less and less horsemanship here. A good horse is a good horse. Breeding for trendy, harmful show ring name-sakes is JUST AS BAD as breeding for color or any other silly trend.
It’s often not the height of the stud, but rather his width, that is important to note. That’s why they can breed arabs to ponies.
I went to that website, and that suffolk thing should be hooked up to a plow. Their paint stud is pretty but SOLID. He’s also long.
oh and they can’t spell, having horses with names like “Phairo’s Ramses”
Just when I think someone cannot possibly top the idiocy of the previous day along comes another Einstein. I hope you sent her an e-mail with a link to your blog. She needs a Fugly Award.
Some people are just asinine. It’s astounding that they’ve made it this far in life w/o accidently lighting themselves on fire, or something. Now on to the points I was going to write.
1. Arabian crosses are very popular as warmbloods actually. Most Traks for instance have quite a bit of Arabian, as do all Anglos (must have at least 25% Arabian, no more than 75% Arabian blood), and quite a few other breeds that they accept them into. And Arabians themselves make excellent sport horses ( http://www.stanleyranch.com has several examples).
2. Long ago, when they first started doing embryo work.. they usually tried to use Draft mares as the recipients, bc it was believed that they would allow more room for the foals to grow, but in actuality, more of those mares had problems (not only labouring, but also just carrying the foal), so it’s advisable to match the mares equally. But (except in extreme cases, such as a 3 hand difference), most mares won’t produce an abnormally large foal. There are cases where they do, but in those cases, sometimes it’s just how the mare is conformed and not the size of the stallion (I know of one farm that had two mares have difficult pregnancies when bred to a much smaller stud. The stallion was 12.2, and the mares were 16.1, and the foals were too large for the mares. No one is certain why, but it’s certainly not the size of the stallion. he’s a cutie though).
3. Why do people cross Arabians with such ugly things. I know that a lot of people like the HA registry bc they’ll accept anything as long as it’s one parent is full arabian (DNAd and all), but really, why do it. (The AHA makes it known that they record parentage only, and aren’t responsible for dictating the conformation of any animals… lol.. I wish they would sometimes).
http://buyhorses.com/scripts/hrsdetl.exe?1187123470
God – it’s a YEARLING! Why have they put a saddle on a baby like that? Is this normal in the USA? Sorry am from UK, breed PREs for dressage and do not even think about putting a saddle on until they are at least 3 and sometimes not until they are 4. Poor little babe I feel for her, someone should buy her to take her away from those people.
oooh – you breed pre’s? i am thinking of getting one (prolly not a baby) in a year or so… do you have a website?
Dually is a warmblood???????? I don’t think so! He looks like a sweetie and he IS gelded so could make someone a wonderful ‘friend’ to plod about with but a warmblood? In the UK, there are lots of oversize cobs like Dually, generally they are coloured or ‘paint’ and lots of them are bred by the gypsies, in fact we sometimes call them gypsy cobs or vanners. I do feel that there is a place for horses like Dually, they are good for nervious novices to learn on and some are worth their weight in gold, but if that is what an American Warmblood is then there is something very very wrong somewhere!
SirenaXVI said…
http://buyhorses.com/scripts/hrsdetl.exe?1187123470
God – it’s a YEARLING! Why have they put a saddle on a baby like that? Is this normal in the USA? Sorry am from UK, breed PREs for dressage and do not even think about putting a saddle on until they are at least 3 and sometimes not until they are 4. Poor little babe I feel for her, someone should buy her to take her away from those people.
–
It must be a USA thing.
I put a saddle on my yearling. . .a 9-10 lb. pony saddle. I don’t see the problem with that?
I’d never back him until he’s at least 3 1/2, and even then, only walking until he’s well into his 4-year-old year.
I don’t think that putting an extra 10 lbs on a yearling’s back for 5 minutes every couple weeks is going to damage it, do you?
Many show horses here, as well as racehorses, are even started under saddle as yearlings, in order to excell in futurities at the beginning of their 2-year-old year.
Although I certainly do not agree with this practice, I’m just pointing out that putting a saddle on a yearlings back isn’t all that bad when you compare it to being schooled every other day with 200 lbs. on their back.
FHOD – Okay. =)
Because he’s gelded, I am happy to say that I think Dually ( http://cactusridgeranch.net/dually.html ) is adorable, in a dum-dee-dum, sweet, meander down the trail sort of way. Truthfully, if he actually is good on trails and going well, he looks like exactly the horse I’d love to get for my husband to join me on easy little jaunts. I think his value is pretty inflated by his optomistic seller, but I do think he’s cute. Thank goodness he’s gelded; since he is, his owners can advertise him with any hyperbole they want, doesn’t bother me a bit.
I couldn’t agree with you more as this sight is designed to critque the “breeders” leave the pets alone