If it walks like a duck, it’s probably a horse who shouldn’t be bred!
Aug 15 2007
The original post: I have a pony that I would like to have bred but don’t know what I should breed her to. She is 12hh and crossed with many breeds. She is mostly arab and welsh. I would want to breed for more size but I don’t know if it should be to a chunky quarter horse or something like an arabian (finer boned). Any suggustions would be great.
Kudos to the forum this came from, as most respondents correctly suggested she should not be bred at all, and gave excellent reasons. Obviously, the front end here JUMPS out at us. I like to use the pictures of my old Quarter Horse, Mike (below), for commentary on toeing out, because I thought he was the grand prize award winner. But this pony has got him beat by a country mile. Very honestly, I am wondering if she was a humane case early on? I rarely see something this narrow and crooked that did not suffer from early malnutrition.
Of course, pony owner got offended and announced that “Well the truth is her legs don’t naturally point out. I was concerned about this a while back and when I asked my farrier about it he showed me that shes just holding them that way because its more comfortable.” Okaaaay. No, they DO go there naturally, sunshine…she’s holding them that way because that is how she is built. I have no doubt it would be uncomfortable for her to point them straight forward, but if you’re trying to say the farrier said a straight legged horse was standing this way for comfort’s sake, either he’s blowing smoke up your ass or you’re blowing it up ours.
Ah well, good advice was given and no doubt will be totally ignored. ‘Cause we all know the world needs more small grade ponies with the front end of Donald Duck!
Here’s why this front leg conformation is a problem. For one thing, splay footed horses are prone to interfering when they travel. This means that their feet will strike each other, often resulting in coronet band injuries or stumbling. Second, the splay footed horse is prone to both splints and tendon injuries because of the twisting motion caused every time that crooked limb hits the ground. Finally, they are more likely to develop sidebone and ringbone issues. This is just not a front end that is built for heavy use. The horse on the left stayed amazingly sound and we like to joke it is because he sold his soul to Satan. 
Suffice it to say, he was a bad little Quarter Horse in his youth and, fortunately for him, reformed with age. Most importantly, he was a gelding and never passed that front end (or his various other conformational flaws!) on to future generations – a fact that I am sure makes AQHA breeders everywhere sigh in great relief!
I get a lot of e-mail from people asking me to explain certain conformational faults. Let me direct you to some great resources online:
Here are some pages with diagrams of common problems:
http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Conformation/BodyParts.htm (scroll down to see them)
http://www.horseinfo.com/info/faqs/faqconformQ4.html
Here’s a more in-depth guide that explains how conformation relates to lameness – go to the Google Book Search
page and then search for “Horseowner’s Guide to Lameness.” This is written by a veterinarian named Ted Stashak, who is a genius as far as I am concerned. I particularly like his comment about evaluating conformation – “Wildly colored horses and those with dramatic limb markings can result in visual distortion and inaccurate conclusions.” Boy, I’m surprised some of these color breeders don’t have a hit out on Dr. Stashak!
Here’s a good test of what you know about conformation. These are some “conformation clinic” articles online – see if you can place them the same way the author/judge did. Remember especially with #3 that you are evaluating for a specific discipline - if I hadn’t thought about that, I would have gotten it wrong.
Tomorrow, I think we are going to have to talk about the NFQHA – because any organization that brags that it is promoting versatility while simultaneously bragging that it does not allow English events, does not offer Western Horsemanship, and brags about the fact that the rider is never judged in any way is just asking to be a target of this blog. I mean, why don’t you just call yourselves the National Show Coalition of Riders Who Suck? Can I design the logo, pleeeease?
121 comments to “If it walks like a duck, it’s probably a horse who shouldn’t be bred!”
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Whoaa… those are some DUCK FOOTED horses!!
I’m trying to think of a great comment to go with them, but I am at a temporary loss for words…
Yippee! Those are great examples, and thanks for links to the conformation pages. It’s obvious there are a lot of very young horse people here. The education will be priceless. Thanks!
gosh i hope she doesn’t breed that duck XD..she’s such alittle brat..somebody outta educate her on horse slaughter..and tell her that she’s just gonna help them along..
if the brat wants’a baby.she needs to go find one…without duck feet..
and those links are great! i love confo judgement like that..
Yeah! this site is helping me.. I don’t think I would have done near as well on the quiz if it weren’t for learning what to look for…educated horseowner on her way
forthefutureofthebreed-
Do you sleep? We must have the same schedule or something, because you are always on the same time I am
Eww not a very nice pony. Hard to believe people think that it’s something that has to reproduce.
As for the confo clinic, I’ll admit I’m at a loss. I was at the first one (aged mares) and noted right away that the mare who placed ‘first’ was VERY VERY sickle-hocked. The judge didn’t even mention it, rather said that she had the most ‘structurally correct’ hocks of the three. PUH-LEASE?! I have a horse that’s sickle hocked and I consider it a serious conformation flaw – this horse is 13 and already has severe arthritis in her hocks. VERY disappointed that a “pro” judge would not mention that kind of flaw.
There’s some slight conformational differences when considering a gaited horse over a trotting one. The closest thing I can find to an online comparison is:
http://www.leeziegler.com/howtoart.html
She doesn’t explain the measurements as well as I’d like her to, but my own observations tend to be in line with what she’s saying.
the only odd thing about those conformation clinics is how much emphasis the judges place on the head- you don’t ride the head, so why does being more “feminine” make one horse better than the other? (yes, the horses would have placed the same way based on the rest of their structure, but I find that bit sort of odd)
The poor pony in today’s edition just boggles the mind. She looks so sweet, she doesn’t DESERVE to be bred (I can’t imagine she’d be very comfortable pregnant, with that sort of construction)
CENEDRA91 – LOL. I sleep about 6 hours each night. Too much to do to spend it sleeping!
Thank you for the links to the conformation pages. I have a horrid eye for conformation (hence the reason I shall never be a breeder) and every bit of good information I can devour will be beneficial for me.
Those “conformation quiz” pages were awesome. Can you keep more of those coming in each post?
They are also proof positive that this blog is informative. I would not have been three for three a few months ago!
HORROR-FIED – A mare is supposed to look like a mare (for breed standard purposes), so that would be why the mention of “femininity”. There are breed rules mentioning the “sex characteristics” when judging a horse at halter.
The conformation clinic link is a good one. I got the first two right on the money, and the TB mares were great examples. The one for WP goes to show how many judges choose today, ignoring conformation faults for a type of horse that wins in the pleasure ring. That palomino is sickle hocked, too straight in the shoulder, and has a very heavy, low neck set. The other two horses are far better conformed horses overall.
Forthefutureofthebreed – that is why I said be careful to consider the specific discipline! If I had to pick one for my own riding horse, I’d have picked the gray, because he looks like he could turn on a dime and be fun to ride. However, I knew that wasn’t the “right” choice here – and the judge is right, he’s not the type to put his neck level and jog along with his knees flat. He’s just not built to do that – the palomino is much closer to that ideal (but still not a great example, if you ask me.)
All I needed to know was that the last was being judged as a wp horse, and all I had to do was look at how the neck tied in. In order to travel level or below, you can’t have a neck that ties in straight up and down.
The other 2 “clinics” I was off by the judges standards, but that’s why I don’t show halter horses. That broodmare’s legs would not have been able to hold up her body for more than walking around the pasture.
Wow, I impressed myself. LOL I thought my 4 y/o AQHA mare was a good WP show prospect and according to the WP conformation article, I was right. I also picked the preferred Thoroughbred filly and she’s built like my Appendix mare. Thanks FHOD. I’ve learned alot since I found your blog. I guess I don’t have a pasture full of fuglies. LOL
I got all the conformation clinics right. BUT I did not like any of hte aged mares. I would not have dragged any of them home.
The WP horses… Well only one was a wp horse and the others were a reiner and a halter horse. I am not a fan of that low slung long WP look but trainers and judges seem to like them.
Loved the conformation clinic links. I was dead on in the aged mares and TB filly critique.
But the WP critique threw me for a loop. I despised the palomino and he had it placed first. Yeesh! The chestnut and grey/roan were much better in my book. Of course maybe that is why I find WP a waste of horse time and flesh.
FHOTD – The gray was my choice, too, but not for that particular discipline. That’s what I dislike about specialization. It’s ruining the basic correct structure of our horses.
It’s an interesting point of discussion, though. As long as the WP ideal continues to be a level neck set, you simply cannot have the same horse do that and still excel in something like reining or jumping. So either the standard changes, or we give up (as we have done) and breed quarter horses (and other stock breeds) with specific disciplines in mind.
FHOTD – The problem I have with specialization is it is detrimental to a breed in the long run. Even the halter classes, which are supposed to represent the best of the performance horses, aren’t immune to specialization, and those horses are a detriment to the breed, as they are today. The conformation and way of going on these specialized horses has evolved to the extreme, creating horses that aren’t even close to the all around athletes they once were.
FHOTD – I do hope the trend toward specialization is changing, as they are hinting at. They have nowhere to go with these extreme types. Something needs to change, and I feel it will. For several decades now, those who bred nice, correct, all around type horses really had no market with the show people. That is turning around. People are realizing that they have nearly lost the all around type horse, and how devastating it would be to QHs and Paints if that happened. Each event has created these extreme horses, most who wouldn’t be marketable outside their field if they were failures at their discipline.
He he he… I got the WP one totally wrong! I placed them opposite even though I knew the Palomino had the right kind of neck set. My daughter used to test me when she was in 4-H judging and I most always failed to pick up something.
I had seen the aged mare one before, and I am still convinced that I used to own the first one. :-/
I would have placed her second with the first coming in last. I didn’t like the “long-and-low” look that the first placed aged mare had. And since I owned the identical twin of the A mare, I know that with proper training, any horse can properly engage their hind end.
I got all the fillies right.
The WP prospects, I would have guessed the grey would have been second with the chestnut third. But, I really don’t know much about WP.
for the future of the breed. Nice horse pic, yours??
HORROR-FIED – A mare is supposed to look like a mare (for breed standard purposes), so that would be why the mention of “femininity”. There are breed rules mentioning the “sex characteristics” when judging a horse at halter.
But isn’t our idea of “sex characteristics” sort of a human aesthetics invention, not a functional one?
Wouldn’t you want to breed out the less desiarable characteristics?? like a non-feminie looking female??
CENEDRA91 – Thank you. Yes, that’s my stallion.
Oh, dear lord, my sister just sent me this:
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=925317
Oh, and here is the mare he bred to:
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1070016
lovely!
HORROR-FIED – Yes, of course it’s aesthetics. And as far as “functional”, we as humans do all sorts of non-functional things with horses.
http://www.equineortho.colostate.edu/questions/conformation.htm
That pony is so narrow that I could fit her sideways in the back seat of my Kia Sephia.
No groin pulls riding that mare bareback! Heck, your knees are practically touching anyway!
What is his name?? Start off with a good example to do research on…that is of course if you want to share…what did you think of the blue eyed thing??nice head I want to see the rest
There is a really interesting vet research article about how conformation impacts on injuries in racing TBs and QHs here:
http://www.equineortho.colostate.edu/questions/conformation.htm
It is a bit long and complicated but mostly says what you would expect to read. One interesting oddity is that knock kneed conformation appears to protect TBs from lower front limb fractures and effusions.
Oh, dear lord, my sister just sent me this:
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=925317
Oh, and here is the mare he bred to:
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1070016
Talk about unknown pedigrees and poor confirmation. someone should email them this site.
Normally I would have looked at the Stallion and though pretty, but not after seeing this site.
CENEDRA91 – Thank you. My stallion has been the subject of conversation on many forums, including another one here. I posted many photos of him, and his foals.
The thing about researching quality is you have to start with a horse that is as close to conformation perfection you can possibly get. A good pedigree will be behind such a horse, in 99% of the examples. If you don’t have exceptional conformation, there’s no use looking further. A great pedigree doesn’t guarantee a quality horse. If this is true, where does that leave the ones with the obscure pedigrees? A truly quality horse comes from selective breeding throughout the pedigree.
What does “Blue Papered” mean? Forgive my ignorance, but 3 of my horses are grade (breeding unk) and the one papered is a mini – I can’t remember what color her papers are!
I can’t believe a pony that small is being ridden by a person that large. Any conformation problems she has can only be exacerbated by carrying a rider that big.
What does “Blue Papered” mean? Forgive my ignorance, but 3 of my horses are grade (breeding unk) and the one papered is a mini – I can’t remember what color her papers are!
If I had to guess I would say say that the pedigree is full of blue ribbon winners?
forthefutureofthebreed Are you going to make me hunt down your stallion?? can you give me a hint?? What article on FHOTD can I look under??
The term “blue papered” used to designate permanent ApHC (Appaloosa) papers. Pink papers were temporary Appy papers. Not sure what blue papered means today.
“Yellow papers” usually means Appendix Registry QHs.
Cenedra, I think most people here want to stay anon for the sake of being able to speak freely, so you’re probably not going to get a lot of real names…not even of horses
Makes the hunt more thrilling
wahoo fugly spoke directly to me
grinning like a highschool girl on prom night…Tomarrow I promise to lay off the coffee
CENEDRA91 – It was on the July 25 “comments” blog. And a good reason not to be so damned honest and up front with everyone on these forums. (That’s hard to do when you’re an honest and up front type of person!). They will throw rocks at you big time, especially if you seem to have a hint of intelligence. Makes them feel a bit inferior, you know.
You are too kind. Good to see you aren’t on Equine.com. I also googled Nevada Black white stallion and didn’t find your pic..
I forgot to comment that I think this splay-footed pony has a really cute head.
sure be on the page with 332 comments jk.
Oh heck I think the pony is darling…I want to kiss her nose. I just don’t want anybody to breed her with that front end!
CENEDRA91 – I used to advertise him on Equine.com, Dreamhorse, and AgDirect. Total waste of money, most of the time. If someone is looking for a classy, elegant, tall, well-bred, all around quality Tovero stallion, they know where to find me. Horses like that are too few and far between. And I have a big mouth, so most people know the horse. LOL.
CENEDRA91 – That would be me. Controversial, at best.
That was me and forthefutureofthebreed going at it on July 25th, must have touched a nerve! You have got to get broader shoulders girl!
CENEDRA91 – Here is more than a head shot.
exesblueeyeddevil – Yeah, I get sort of passionate about what I do. Comes with the territory of being totally devoted to something and being an Aries all at the same time. LOL.
I can understand, I am sort of a bitchy virgo! peace?
OK So are the hints in FORTHEFUTURES writting, or should I be looking else where…just kidding I want to find it on my own. This is fun
I’m glad I was able to initiate a meeting of the minds with you two. I think I may have to start searching tommarrow a little more…time to go to the barn and give TJ her cough medicine…poor baby has developed a nasty cough because of all the dryness.
Re the conformation clinic, this is where I get into trouble. If the judge is looking for “western pleasure type” he durned well better state “STOCK horse western type”. There’s a reason we Morganites refer to the QHs as “peanut rollers” with their low headsets. In a Morgan or Saddlebred Western pleasure you want the regular breed upheadedness with a vertical face. I’ve never understood the desirte to ride a horse with NOTHING in front of you except the saddle horn. Where’s the head??? I love a baroque curvy neck with tippy ears . . . . And I will refrain from mentioning (heheh) the “stock type in harness” driving horses. But IF I were to mention them, I would ask why they use a harness with an overcheck in the first place, if the horse is to carry his neck horizontally? Where is the collection and impulsion off the hocks? WHY does laying leather on ANY horse make it a “harness horse”? But I won’t mention any of that because I’ll only get all worked up.
Had a duckfooted English pleasure horse once (big yella gelding) who stayed sound with clean legs, but I’d never breed one on purpose. I understand that duckfooted is preferable to pigeon toes for some strange reason to do with interfering.
Blue papered in many breeds, (TWH, etc) means it is DNA parentage certified. In other words, both parents were DNA identified, and the foal has been proven to be from those parents. A lot of registries are going to this because of some iffy breeding practices. A rather famous one in the TWH world happened about 25 years or so ago. World Grand Champion stallion was put to stud, and was shooting blanks. No money there! so the owner used another stallion to get the mares in foal. Got caught (but years later), and blood typing showed all these foals with that Stallion on the papers were sired by someone else. (They were clued in when none of them were winning, maybe?) So TWHBEA went to blood typing, then DNA typing to prevent this. Some breed registries require the vet to certify the breeding or AI with copies of the mares papers and everything. (according to my vet)
WEll aint that a hoot spent the whole time reading that blog found the link to the pics…page not found.. eheheh *pulling tuffts of hair out* Also no website was linked..I seen talk of it, but there were a lot of deleted posts. You by chance didn’t send me on a wild goose chase did you? I did however get to learn about oLWS!
exesblueeyeddevil said…
I can understand, I am sort of a bitchy virgo! peace?
You bet. *extends hand*
thanks for the info on Blue Papered. I was just browsing the equine classifieds and ran into that term more than a few times.
CENEDRA91 said, “WEll aint that a hoot spent the whole time reading that blog found the link to the pics…page not found.. eheheh *pulling tuffts of hair out* Also no website was linked..I seen talk of it, but there were a lot of deleted posts. You by chance didn’t send me on a wild goose chase did you? I did however get to learn about oLWS!”
Here are the links to the photos posted earlier. My website is being revamped so there was no link to that.
FOALS
HORSES
HORSES
THE-FARMER’S-WIFE – Hey There! While I’m not a Morgan person (not that I don’t appreciate a quality horse of any breed), most QHs simply aren’t built to carry their heads and necks like Morgans do. I’m with you on what a correct Morgan is, though, and how they should carry themselves. I’m definitely NOT in agreement with the type of QHs that are winning in the show ring today.
You can see some Morgan influence in a few of the earlier QHs, though, mostly those from the Headlight Morgans. A bit heavier neck, set a bit higher on the shoulders, and a more level croup than the mostly TB-influenced QHs. It wouldn’t surprise me to discover that many of the “unknown ranch mares” behind many QHs were in fact, Morgans, or more Thoroughbreds.
Completely off topic, unless you consider the general topic of FHOTD, but here is a link to an equine with extreme color: http://technorati.com/photos/tag/eclyse . Forgive me – I may be behind the times, but I just found out about it and wanted to share. If the link doesn’t work, just google “eclyse”. Thankfully she wasn’t an intentional breeding (as far as I can tell). Certainly interesting as far as genetics go.
“Pedigree packed with Champions
worth over $7500…priced for quick sale
This is one special mare that I simply do not have the time to spend on. She is a high percentage Egyptian with that show stopper attitude that needs an experienced handler but would make an unbelievable project horse. This mare belongs in a show ring or in a broodmare barn with her flair and quality pedigree. She can produce black foals. She does not belong in my trail horse pasture. While I could spend the time to train her and sell her for about $4000 more I would rather spend my time building my mini donkey farm.”
She didn’t look fugly but you really couldn’t tell by the picture. Point is she hasn’t done ANYTHING and she’s not even trained. My favorite part is the last line of the ad.
forthefutureofthebreed, you said it right, as on the western ranches a century ago most of the horses got mixed up unless someone was extremely devoted to purity in registered animals.
And yes, of course, the Qs aren’t built to carry their heads up, but I still have a hard time admiring many I see at the shows where the highest point of the entire horse/rider/tack package is the saddle with the head down to here and the tail down to there. So am I correct that in a Q judge’s want a “flat knee” with no flexion in the joint, sort of shuffling along swinging the whole leg from the elbow?
I am trying to understand here, so please help me along. Heck, this morning I watched my trainer long lining my harness prospest who wasn’t in love with his crupper and he kicked to the moon before he settled down in a lovely collected frame. Can’t wait to get him hitched! But he’s built upheaded like his breed standard, and when he gets his act together the overcheck will flap loose on his neck while he wears his bridle in self-carriage and flags his tail.
Thanks for the feedback as I am trying to learn. It is hard when one has been raised with saddle breeds to learn to appreciate the stock horses, but I agree with FHOTD that good conformation in any breed stands out. Isn’t it “blood will tell?” I sure loved the Welsh Cob stallion a few days ago.
I think I beat her for toeing out.
My yearling:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/Lonely_Equine/tail02.jpg
Admittedly, he doesn’t always stand in a way that it’s so pronounced. However, it’s pretty much nasty.
(his front end doesn’t toe out at all. . .I don’t even know why it looks like that)
I’ve been told by the vet that because he totally straightens out when moving, that it’s really just a matter of if he trips over himself that will determine what exactly he’ll excell in.
Oh darn. . .
proper link:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/ v704/Lonely_Equine/tail02.jpg
THE-FARMER’S-WIFE – To be correct in a WP class (QHs and Paints), they are to move with their head and neck level or slightly above. They are supposed to be penalized for traveling more than a few strides with their poll below the withers. They are supposed to look like they are moving forward, too, but many you’d have to drive a stake in the ground to tell. As for the knee action – They are supposed to move fluidly, and less knee action gives that impression. They want as little knee action as possible, without the appearance of being stiff-legged. Daisy cutters, you can call it. They want the hind legs driving well up underneath the horse, but if the truth were known, sickle hocks only make it “appear” as if they’re driving deep. The straighter shoulder allows for more “up” movement rather then teach them proper elevation from correct conformation. It all makes me sick, if you want to know the truth, and I would never breed for or subject any of my horses to what needs to be done to achieve the look to win. Of course, certain bloodlines lend to the type that is as close to what they want while minimizing training to achieve that movement. The less bulk the horse has, the “easier” it is for them to move. Unlike halter horses, where a 16.3 hand, 1800 lb HYPP fire-breathing bug-eyed monster is what wins there. (I’m exaggerating, to a point).
I remember reading those conformation clinics in Horse & Rider all the time. I never realized that its still being done on the net. What a great idea!
As for that little pony mare, the girl will bred her regardless of what is told to her. Just another fugly horse that will end up in slaughter in a few years. How sad!
Here are seven flavors of wild fugly for all of you, if you want to see some really bad legs. It will be interesting to see “after” photos.
http://www.wildhorseandburro.blm.gov/
spotlight/mustang_makeover/index.htm
I hope that link went through.
heheh i avoided the tests – honest and humble enough to admit that to me (and i KNOW its just me), ALL quarter horses look like bovines in drag.
ive found this site:
http://www.thehorse.com/
.. very informative for both health and conformation discussions, of course limited by the fact that the only horse subject to any significant statistical study is the racing thoroughbred. it lacks diagrams, but for those interested its chockfull of sciencey goodness.
Geologyrider –
I’ve never seen anything like that before, an oddity for sure!
You know, some of those Mustangs look pretty good to me, modulo the hairiness and other draftish characteristics. But maybe I am biased as one of the horses I love is a BLM mustang whose only serious conformation fault is straightish shoulders; however, when he picks himself up and gets on the bit, he is extremely smooth to ride, a horse I could easily see riding for many miles.
As for show QH… I really, really hate it when any breed goes to extremes, especially when the breed has to develop distinct types for different kinds of work. Even with what the QH standards say, it seems that the horses who outdo the standards are the winners. Very sad and it seems to happen in all breeds. I haven’t watched a QH western pleasure class in about 20 years, and hated how low and slow the horses were then; I’d hate it even more now, I suspect.
I looked at the link for that Okie Dot stud and the mare he is bred to, did you see the reason they are selling her? LOL They are selling her only because they want to start breeding black horses. Huh? Any particular kind I wonder? I guess just black will do.
” The only reason we are selling her is so we can start breeding black horses….”
Ann said…
“You know, some of those Mustangs look pretty good to me, modulo the hairiness and other draftish characteristics. “
I found a handful I liked partially BECAUSE of the afore mentioned “hairiness and other draftish characteristics”. But being a draft horse lover from way back I guess that is to be expected from me. I suppose when looking for a saddle horse ones first reaction shouldn’t be “I bet that horse could really pull a plow!”
Forthefutureofhtebreed said:
Unlike halter horses, where a 16.3 hand, 1800 lb HYPP fire-breathing bug-eyed monster is what wins there. (I’m exaggerating, to a point).
Ha ha ha you are not exaggerating AT ALL. I have a lovely filly, HUGE hip, darling face, pretty chest. But she is only 15 hands tall at two so she is not halter quality. oooookay
forthefutureofthebreed- your stallion is just lovely, and coming from a dressage enthusiast, that’s saying something
lol Anywho, I’ve trained and boarded at some very paint horse focused barns in the past, and I’ve never seen such a lovely example of the breed, be it overo, tobiano, tovero or solid.
Craigslist: gotta love it, gotta hate it. Here’s a little gem ( wacky grammar and all ) I found, to be filed under Ridiculous Advertising:
“Trade my horse for you Old Ford Tractor”
” I have two horses. I will trade one for a good tractor no junk please.”
There was no picture of ye old horse, but I bet we all have one in our head.
DRESSAGEFAN1 – Thank you so much. That means a lot to me. I appreciate that.
I got on one of those WP horses one time. One time only. It terrified me, I felt like the horse was going to fall frontwards out from under me and onto its nose. I can’t see that they are at all a pleasure to ride.
see, in my world, downhill is a BAD thing. drilling into the ground like a sewing machine with every pound of horse on the forehand and its nostrils scraping the dirt does not for comfort, soundness or pleasure make. its the absolute antithesis of the aims of correct training.
and for the record, downhill is not measured wither to croup. its elbow to stifle. a lot of the horses that look a tad downhill are actually DEFORMED downhill.
but i digress. i understand i am quite alone in not ‘getting’ the whole destruction of gaits and avoidance of gymnastic development that is the western horse world. just dont claim its ‘dressage in a western saddle’ near me or youll find yourself having one removed from you surgically. *curtsey*
and for the record, downhill is not measured wither to croup. its elbow to stifle.
Wow I never knew that! Will have to keep that in mind. Learn something new every day
forthefutureofthebreed Thank you for the pics. I was getting frustrated looking for them.
Michelle
CENEDRA91 – You’re welcome.
I would encourage everyone to take the time to look at a REALLY good Western Pleasure horse. I don’t mean the horses from these back yard trainers that you see at most of the shows that feel if your horse is moving at the speed of smell with its head between its knees you’ve got a winner…I mean an honest to god world champion horse that comes from a world champion trainer. Being an AQHA trainer myself specializing in Western Pleasure I feel the need to be a little defensive twords all the negative comments brought on by western pleasure horses but, I do understand why because generally speaking, unless you are hard core into the pleasure world, the horses that most people are exposed to are less then “extrodinary”. I would however like to take a moment to discuss what a good western pleasure horse is all about. Contrary to popular belief, Western pleasure isn’t all that different from other forms of riding & training. In fact when we train pleasure horses (When I say we I am generalizing to myself & the trainers I am closely associated with) we follow the “dressage pyramid”..All the elements that go into a good dressage horse also go into our pleasure horses. We follow the scales of Rhythm, suppleness, straightness, impulsion, & collection. True we do ours with a level headset rather then an elevated but our horses still function the same way. The pleasure horse of today has come a long way from what they were even 5 years ago. Historically pleasure horses were dubbed “rail snails”..meaning that we moved as slow as a snail & couldnt move our horses off the rail basically stating that besides looking pretty our horses were useless in any other sense. I’ll be the first to admit that there are alot of pleasure horses out there that are trained wrong but there are also a lot that are trained right. All of the pleasure horses that I work with today can do pretty much everything that any other style of riding horse can do just in a little different way. I have a mare that does one & two beat tempie changes that would make most dressage trainers drool. Another gelding can spin a hole into the ground & if it wouldn’t be for the lack of speed on his fast circles I’d consider setting him up with NRHA. Then theres the stallion that is out of pure pleasure lines..I’m talking nothing but padded stalls & training rings for this guys ancestors & yet he continuously “cutts” the cats, dogs, flies, my boyfriend, pretty much anything he can get to come into range. The pleasure horses of today can be some of the most versitile horses in the ring if trained correctly & given the correct foundation of training. As with every other breed, a few bad cookies can spoil the whole thing. It’s taken some trainers years to figure out how to train a truly good pleasure horse..believe me..its hard!..I’m still learning. Before you judge every western pleasure horse by a couple of bad ones that you’ve seen, take the time to look into a truly good trainer. I have ridden every kind of horse, dressage, jumping, reining, cutting, saddle seat, barrel racers, you name it I’ve been there. While I have taken away something from everyone that I have ridden & give them all equal respect for who & what they are, the western pleasure horse is truly the most phenominal ride that I have ever had. I’m not asking that everyone go out & ride a pleasure horse in hopes that they will fall madly in love, all I am asking is that you give the trainers that are producing honestly good horses the respect that they deserve.
forthefutureofthebreed – Your stallion is just gorgeous. I have a Paint myself – a black and white overo that I am bringing up through the dressage levels. Not the most typical choice of discipline for a Paint, but he is absolutely excelling and is currently schooling 3rd/showing 2nd. I just love the Paint breed.
incognitomosquito –
Interesting about our tastes in Mustangs. The guy I ride is built pretty lightly for a Mustang, which to me is a “well-bred” look. He’s 14.2 hands and about 850 pounds. He gets fuzzy in the winter, but not so much that one can’t see the horse underneath.
But then again, the other horse I ride is a TB, and built like one. So my bias is clearly showing!
smithereens_86 said…
forthefutureofthebreed – Your stallion is just gorgeous. I have a Paint myself – a black and white overo that I am bringing up through the dressage levels. Not the most typical choice of discipline for a Paint, but he is absolutely excelling and is currently schooling 3rd/showing 2nd. I just love the Paint breed.
Thank you. Congratulations on your Paint doing well in dressage! That’s great! I love Paints, too.
yankeestyle2 – That’s great that there are good examples of versatile pleasure horses out there. The problem I have with each specialized event (not just pleasure) is the fact that a person cannot take any well-conformed, well-trained versatile athlete into the specialized ring and do well with them. If they don’t have “the look”, they won’t place. I do hope things change a bit, back to when we had real versatile horses who could perform any number of events, run, and do well at halter, too. In the meantime, I realize there are excellent examples (they are exceptions) specializing in each event. Those WP-bred horses you have that can do more than WP are exceptions, not the rule.
forthefutureofthebreed said…
Those WP-bred horses you have that can do more than WP are exceptions, not the rule.
I don’t know what my APHA gelding was specifically bred for, but I do know that when I bought him three and a half years ago, he was trained WP. I re-trained him for dressage. The conversion was fairly easy for my horse, but I have seen other WP horses for whom the conversion was not so easy. Pretty much any horse can do lower level dressage. Whether the horse has the talent to move on to the mid/upper levels, that is another matter altogether.
AQHA is actually encouraging horse breeders to breed better conformed performance horses by the addition of the “Performance Halter” classes. The horses that are winning in the performance halter are those that are great examples of good conformation & movement. In order to qualify for the performance halter class the horse has to be invloved in performance classes too..(any undersaddle class).The new standards of AQHA are really encouraging people to breed for an all-around horse. Numbers have grown in the all-around divisions where horses have to be equally as good at Western, English, & Halter events. In fact thats what everyone is working to achieve lately is that “ultimate” All-Around horse. The AQHA world is finally on its way to getting the breed back where it should be & its greatly in part to the handful of great all-around horses out there..everyone sees them & says..”I want one”. Its taken a while to come this far & it will take even longer to get where we need to be but I think eventually we can turn the breed back into the spectacular horses that they were. It’s going to take the support of everyone like the people on this blog that realize that breeding for quality over quantity will better everyone in the long run.
lifelike001, mentioning “dressage in a western saddle”, have you ever seen Eitan Beth-Halachmy on Holiday Compadre? He represented Morgans and the USA as the closing ceremonies of the World Equestrian Games in Germany last year. Maybe a Google search will find him. He is spectacular, and when he shows a Morgan in a world championship class in Oklahoma City each October he looks like any ol’ cowpoke takin’ ol’ Shep out on the trail (plain white shirt, not a drop of silver on his saddle), yet he wins because he’s head and shoulders above the rest. He truly does “dressae in a western saddle.”
The all around horse… In my experience the horses that win in the high point or all around division are the ones that do everything the same with different tack. I don’t know how many breed shows I have watched where people ride western with english tack. I think it’s a great idea but I don’t know how well it will work in reality. I am glad that they are trying to breed halter horses that actually have a function beyond being a halter horse.
I guess it goes back to the old saying jack of all trades master of none. I have no problem with specialized breeding. We do it with dogs. People specialize too, we call it grad school.
gunnerhorse – Specialized breeding within a breed is a detriment to that breed. It always has been. Those who breed for a specialized horse that will dominate its event tend to ignore the correct conformation attributes of the original type, in favor of what will win today (or sell for big bucks).
the thing about ‘western dressage’ is a total misunderstanding of what dressage is FOR. its not going around in patterns. its systematic physical gymnasticising of the horse. the horse develops not just in its ability to perform movements, but in its physical capacity to allow those movements. a novice level horse does not look like a grand prix horse, just as a novice test is not like a grand prix test.
think amateur guy in the gym lifting weights versus olympic level gymnastic competitor. the body develops through the correct work.
no western performance can compare because a western test AND horse look exactly the same at both ends of the competitive spectrum.
oh and they do NOT exhibit collection. you have to carry weight on the hindquarters to do that. Eitan Beth-Halachmy’s horses are all hocks-out, im afraid.
Forthefutureofthebreed,
I respect your opinion but I disagree. QHs have been specialized for years. A cutting bred QH isn’t the same as a WP QH and both are still different than the racing lines. You look at a well bred example of each of these performance horses and you say, “That’s a QH.” You don’t think twice. Same with Arabs, lately we’ve been seeing more and more Arabs in the dressage world. These horses would probably not do well in a park class. But you look at one and it is an Arab. The Friesian Purebreds, some are wonderful as harness horses: high knee action, more upright headset, not so much forward action. These harness Friesians are much different than the ones used for dressage but they all represent the breed. I think diversity within a breed makes it more appealing to a larger market. It also keeps a horse from being forced into a role it isn’t suited for. As long as the horse has a good conformation, can perform its given discipline, and has a good temperment it gives credit to its breed. I guess I am probably not as hung up on papers or breeds. It comes with the territory. I do eventers and jumpers. I really could care less about the breed as long as it can perform.
I beg to differ on the sense that a good western pleasure quarter horse does not exhibit collection. A good western pleasure horse is round, holds its frame, & moves in a collected or “cadenced ” manor. As far as I’m concerned all horses no matter what breed or what seat they are ultimately going to be finished in should be started with the same basic foundation based upon collection, suppleness & impulsion. We regularly have dressage instructors come in and work with not only ourselves & horses but also our students. A western riding pattern is alot like some of the fragments in a dressage test. If your horse is not collected there is no way your are going to be able to get through the lead changes. Just because we have a western saddle on rather then a dressage saddle does not mean that our horses are not capable of achieving true collection. I admire dressage greatly & use most of the methods daily in my western pleasure training. Are the horses exactly the same?..no of course not..I’ll be the first one to admit that my horse could never compete at a grand prix level..but in the same respect, that grand prix horse could never go into the pleasure ring & hold its own. Every breed & every seat is different & specialized..if they weren’t it would be a very boring world. I guess the point that I am trying to make is that dressage horses are not the only horses that achieve actual collection…to assume so is highly unfair to those that are working hard everyday to get their horse to that level no matter what kind of a saddle they are sitting in. The end product is different but under the surface, the fundimentals that I instill into my western pleasure horses are much the same that trainers put into their dressage horses….number one being collection.